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Feb. 14, 2022 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes
01:05:50
Edition 611 - Feb Guest Catchups - Dr James Giordano, Kathleen Marden And Mary A Joyce
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Across the UK, across continental North America and around the world on the internet by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes and this is The Unexplained.
I hope everything is hunky-dory with you.
And if it isn't quite hunky-dory, then I hope it is on the way to being.
You know, as we look at things now, it seems that the world is starting to look at the notion of life without or living with COVID, which of course put a block on so many of our activities for two years nearly now.
I don't think my life will ever be the same.
I still don't see people.
It's just that my routine has changed to the point where, you know, I do everything remotely now.
I don't think that's a good thing.
And certainly come the springtime here, I want to be getting out of that.
While there is time for me to do that, you know, that's my choice.
And I think it's definitely the decision that a lot of people are making, that slowly but surely, little bit by little bit, we have to begin to live again.
You know, we've got to get busy living.
As Morgan Freeman said in the Shorshank Redemption, get busy living or get busy dying.
And I think that's just the truth of it, isn't it, when you think about it.
It was a really nice day here.
We've had some spring-like weather in London lately.
I'm told there's going to be a bit of a cold spell coming soon.
Certainly looking out of the window now, it looks really steely grey.
And the trees are still leafless.
Although, because the weather is different these days, and it's on average a lot warmer here in London than it used to be when I was younger, a lot of the spring flowers are appearing.
So we're getting signs of spring here.
The real thing cannot come too quickly as far as I'm concerned.
Okay.
Thank you very much for all of your emails, your communications.
They are gratefully received.
Your thoughts and suggestions and telling me things about your life.
Just going to mention a couple of people.
Sorry, I can't mention everybody right now, but please know that I see all of the emails as they come in.
Joe Unro Jr. in Virginia.
Thank you for your email.
Joe got that a day or two ago.
Good thoughts about the Turin Shroud show that we did with Barry Schwartz.
I enjoyed that one enormously.
Seems you did too.
Guy and others enjoyed that show.
Thank you.
I had a lovely email from Jason.
Jason, thank you for yours.
And Phoebe in London, a very, very special email.
Phoebe is a young woman who started listening to my podcasts 15 years ago and they became a part of her life.
She is now a woman with a career and the podcasts still go with her.
Her and her dad used to listen to the shows when Phoebe was driven back to university.
And I can remember my dad and my mum driving me back sometimes to the University of Cardiff, University College Cardiff, when I was training to be a journalist there.
I did my main degree in Liverpool and then Radio City paid for me to train as a journalist at University College Cardiff.
Wasn't I lucky?
And sometimes on a Sunday night, my mum and dad, to give them a break too, would drive me from Liverpool all the way through mid-Wales, sometimes in the winter, sometimes in the snows of mid-Wales, where you would see nothing but trees and greenery for mile upon mile.
You know, they would do that for me.
And we'd listen, in those days, we'd listen to the radio going down.
But Phoebe and her dad used to listen to my podcasts, and they'd become part of her life.
I want you to know, Phoebe, just here on the podcast, your email was a great sustainer for me.
It hasn't been easy these last few years for me.
And, you know, we get by because we have to, don't we?
But every so often, the odd bit of support comes in and it means so much.
You know, a few words can make a big difference.
So what I would say to you, if you're listening to this now, if you've ever wanted to tell somebody near to you what they mean to you or somebody who's helped you out what they mean to you, don't wait.
You know, I'm trying to do that now.
There is never enough time.
And like with the loss of my parents, they were gone before I knew it.
And I have so much still that I have to say to them.
So say things that are important while you can, I think is the answer to this.
Thank you very much to Adam, my webmaster, for his ongoing hard work on the show.
Thank you, Adam.
This edition, three items from my radio show that I didn't want to disappear into the ether.
Number one, Dr. James Giordano, world expert on Havana syndrome, with some new news about Havana syndrome appearing in the last week.
Then we'll talk to Kathleen Marden briefly, the niece of Betty and Barney Hill, the most famous alien abductees in history, about a new documentary that appears on Discovery and I think will arrive in Britain before long about that case and also the case of Travis Walton, but we'll be talking about Betty and Barney with Kathleen.
That's just a brief conversation.
Then something a little bit longer with Mary Joyce, who I have no idea why I never spoke with Mary Joyce earlier.
She has a remarkable story to tell, a series of remarkable stories, but her own story of how she trained in journalism like I did and now does topics like this.
So I think you will enjoy that.
Her website is skyshipsovercashiers.com.
And there is a story behind that wonderful name.
And we'll tell you that, too, in the conversation.
So three items here.
And I hope that you enjoy them.
Please let me know what you think about them.
Please go to the website, theunexplained.tv, and you can follow all of the links and the email addresses there too.
Send me email feedback if you want to.
Give me a guest suggestion, whatever you'd like to do.
It's lovely to hear from you.
Okay, item one is based on this news story that appeared on the BBC and various international news sources.
Quotes, directed energy plausibly explains some of the cases of the mysterious Havana syndrome illness, a new U.S. intelligence community report says.
There's been a continuous debate over whether symptoms afflicting U.S. staff around the world were caused by some kind of device or were psychological in nature.
James Giordano from Georgetown University is a world expert and authority on this.
And on my radio show, I caught up with him.
There are those who've Tried to dismiss it as being psychosomatic or as being something that is simply fantastical that doesn't exist.
Now we're being told there's a possibility there may be some kind of directed energy weapon or whatever it might be being used here.
What's going on?
I think it's important to note that this has represented an ongoing investigation beginning in 2016 with the original about two dozen cases that occurred in the United States embassy in Havana, Cuba, thus the eponymous Havana syndrome.
Those cases were well documented.
There was objective clinical findings that revealed that something had happened to those individuals, something physical had happened to those individuals.
Subsequently, there have been literally hundreds and hundreds of reports of similar, equivalent, or likewise events.
However, in the majority of those cases, this has not been verified at all.
These have not been validated.
And although the cases have been looked into, they've proven to be something else, either a pre-existing physical ailment, it's called a functional neurological disorder, what it's sometimes referred to as a psychosomatic disorder.
And indubitably, there has been a tremendous sociogenic and psychogenic effect that essentially has, if you will, brought out of the woodwork three groups of individuals, the worried well, those who believe that they may be in harm's well, in harm, feel that their signs and symptoms might be representative of this.
The second are those that may have some pre-existing condition, for example, inner ear infection, an inflammation of the inner ear called labyrinthitis, various rheumatological disorders, cognitive disorders, prior concussion.
For them, the subjective symptoms are similar enough, and that prompts additional worry, as well as some focus concern.
And then the last are those individuals with truly psychogenic phenomenon who may have some, what is commonly referred to as psychological overlay.
In other words, there may be hypochondriasis there, as well as some other conditions.
And so I think it's important to really separate these clades of individuals.
Now, what's also very important to note is that at present, there are about 100 individuals who remain in what is commonly referred to as the verification and validation pipeline.
In other words, their signs and symptoms don't fall into those other groups, certainly are representative more of what we saw in Havana, but have not yet been validated and verified.
Isn't there an easy way to work out whether there is something going on here?
And from there, you can work out what it might be.
If you take those people who have been reporting symptoms, and maybe you can describe for me as well when you answer this, you know, the sorts of symptoms they've reported, but those who've reported symptoms, and then you take a control sample of the general population and you compare the two, and if the appearance of various symptoms is similar or the same in the control sample of general population who are not in the situation that those who've reported Havana's syndrome happen to be, then you can make some judgments, can't you?
If there's a difference in those numbers, if it's a much higher incidence among the people who've reported it versus the number of people who are not concerned in any way, then there is something going on.
I haven't put that brilliantly, but you know what I'm saying.
No, you have.
You've put it very succinctly and you've absolutely hit the nail on the head.
The rate limiting factor has been the sheer number of individuals who have come forth and reported this.
And that's only increased subsequently to Defense Secretary Austin's invocation that those who feel they may have been subjected to this type of event or may be experiencing these types of signs and symptoms should come forward without fear of bias, stigma, or some form of misregard.
And so those numbers have, quote, gone up, right?
But I think what's important to note is that there are a core set of signs and symptoms.
The symptoms include, the subjective symptoms include feelings of vertigo, not just dizziness, but vertigo, tumbling, difficulty concentrating, sometimes a ringing or continuous buzzing in the ears, problems with motor coordination and even simple tasks, problems with vigilance, disruptions of sleep, feelings of unease and ill.
Now, of course, we recognize that many of those subjective features could be attributed to a variety of other conditions.
But then we get down to the more objective signs that are evaluated through very detailed clinical evaluation and testing of what's referred to as the neurovestibular system.
This is the connectivity system between the inner ear, the balance organs, an area of the brain called the brainstem, another brain area called the cerebellum, and then higher brain areas.
And this involves significant quantitative testing of eye movements, balance, coordination, fine motor coordination and movement integration, as well as forms of electro and physiological evaluation of brain activity and neuroimaging.
Now, you can imagine that to run through that battery of examination takes considerable time.
And that's been part of the ongoing issue is the sheer time necessary to perform these evaluations in a rigorous and stringent way.
Okay.
The other thing that could be done, and I would think this isn't too difficult, is surely to sweep the frequencies that are being used for various reasons around these U.S. buildings where these people might work, see who's transmitting what, what is being radiated around there, and also take a look at equipment that you're asking these people to use.
Maybe it's something that you've given them.
As far as you know, are those things being done?
Well, the latter certainly has.
The need to examine whether or not there's some occupational health risk based upon the equipment that is present on site or that these individuals may have in their possession, that was one of the early considerations.
And that's been performed subsequently and iteratively through each one of these sort of waves of reports.
And it doesn't seem that there's anything actually in the user environment that is contributing to this, any form of microwave device or sonic device that is in any way producing these occupational health risks and these anomalous health incidences.
So the next question is, well, where is it coming from?
Now, the thing you don't want to do is finger point with some attribution.
That's foolish to do, at least at this point.
But it's determined that there are a number of different types of devices, and if you will, tools, technologies that could do this, directable ultrasonic devices that have long been in production, clearly well over 15 to 20 years, and we recognize that these are now scalable and fieldable.
And there have been advances in scalable, fieldable microwaves, shieldable microwaves, that are able to be very rapidly pulsed and therefore transmit their energy field, which is in the low gigawatt range, very, very rapidly, but effectively without a thermal heat signature.
That then leads to your other question, your first question.
Well, are there processes or procedures and protocols underway for detection?
In other words, environmental detection, detection within the actual edifices that these individuals may be in and or on their person.
And the short answer to that is yes.
That represents the tip of the proverbial spear.
The first stage is identification and then detection of what is being identified as most probable causes.
And then ultimately from that detection comes mitigation and prevention.
Okay, which sounds easy, and I know it's time consuming.
It isn't.
There is another factor to bring into all of this, isn't there?
However, these people are being exposed to these things, assuming this is a real thing, and this intelligence community report suggests that there might well be something here, and directed energy plausibly explains some of the cases.
If anybody's being exposed to anything and they're in a working environment, surely if this isn't solved for them in very short order, if it isn't done very quickly, then isn't the U.S. government going to find itself the subject of legal action?
Well, you know, as you may or may not be aware, there already is some litigation with regard to, at very, very least, assuring some level of compensation and ongoing clinical care for those individuals who, number one, were in the original verification pipeline and those who may be in the verification and validation pipeline now.
The question then becomes, obviously, what do we do at this point?
Clearly, the next step is going to be detecting these threats and preventing and mitigating these threats in those circumstances and situations when they may be most prominent.
But let's break on that for a moment, because this too is not as easy as it sounds.
Please recall that those cases in Havana were not induced or were not evoked in the individual's place of work, but rather in their domiciles.
Right.
The homes.
So the idea of targeting individuals where they live in those regions and those aspects of their commute or their lifestyles that render them vulnerable, well, this has been a key factor in the way that various forms of detection and mitigation would then need to be implemented.
Surely those situations, those circumstances, and those edifices that are official government property maintain a fairly high level of security, inclusive against these types of things.
However, once the individuals are off-site, once the individuals are in transit, once the individuals are at home, their vulnerability potentially increases.
And that's the additional concern.
So at this point, what we're looking to do is to maximize the relative safety and security of those individuals, not only, quote, on the job site, but more globally in terms of the lifestyle, activities of daily living.
Okay, last question.
And thank you so much for being so enlightening about this again, Jim.
You know, the last question is, isn't it surprising?
We know that America has one of the best intelligence services in the world, and so do the Brits and, you know, the major nations of this world have all got security services.
Isn't it rather amazing that this has existed now as a thing for more than five years, and yet no sign, as far as we know of it, as to who might be doing this, if it's being done, has been detected by agents in the field or others working for the security service?
Part of that answer is the difficulty of attribution.
Please recall, there's no proverbial smoking gun, and it's taken years for us to determine the extent of the injury, the nature of the injury, and what could cause this injury.
I mean, I've been on this case since 2016.
So we're looking at six years worth of investigative forensics, number one.
Number two, science by its nature has to be self-critical and self-revising.
And there were a number of alternative hypotheses that needed to be dealt with and explored in detail so they could then be falsified and demonstrated.
No, no, no, it wasn't X, Y, and Z. It was A, B, and C. Then the question is, well, how is this possible?
We know that certain types of devices of this sort have been under research, development, testing, evaluation, and evidently use for quite some time.
One of the wrinkles in the rub has been the technological readiness level of scalable and fieldable microwaves that are rapidly pulsed.
But there now is evidence that indeed that is possible, number one, and number two, very probable given the existing technology.
But the other question is relative vulnerability.
And as so often happens in situations such as this, there's a general suspicion that, well, we've got this, so to speak.
And the technology very often is upgraded and advances and advances at a pace that is greater than the detection and mitigation technology.
And that's basically the law of the land, so to speak.
So it may be a race.
Exactly.
You're looking at brinksmanship, one-upsmanship, escalation.
And we've known for a long time, literally over 20 years, that the brain would be the next battlescape, at least certainly a battlescape of the 21st century.
And what we're seeing is as the technology increases, improves, and becomes more capable and sophisticated.
And this is very often technology that can be used biomedically, its potential for dual use to be used in those ways, not just that can assess, affect, and heal, but for ways that can also affect and harm represents an equivalent risk.
Professor James Giordano from Georgetown University World Authority on the subject of Havana syndrome.
It seems we are getting nearer to an explanation of this.
And the explanation, when and if it comes out, may give us a whole raft of problems, as I think you heard in that conversation.
We'll catch up with him again.
Kathleen Marden is the niece of Betty and Barney Hill, the most famous alien abductees in the world, a remarkable story that you've heard many times on this and other shows.
There is a new documentary that is airing on Discovery currently.
I think it's either come to or coming to the United Kingdom.
It's certainly been on in the United States.
The documentaries are called Shock Docs.
I think they feature also the case of Travis Walton.
We're going to talk about the documentary and anything new about the Betty and Barney Hill case.
This is from my radio show.
Once again, a pleasure to welcome Kathleen Marden here.
There's going to be a new documentary.
It's going to be on soon on Discovery in the United States and will inevitably come here, which will feature Kathleen Marden, friend of this show, niece of Betty and Barney Hill.
She's online to us now.
Kathleen, thank you for giving us time.
I know that once again you're busy tonight, so I promise not to keep you too long.
Talk to me about this new show.
I think a lot of people know the story of Betty and Barney and have heard it many times on this show and on podcasts that I've done.
What new light will this documentary shed, do you believe?
This documentary is an update on Betty and Barney Hill.
And for many, many years, I have kept that story alive.
And scientists have evaluated more evidence.
In fact, I wrote about this in the 60th anniversary edition of the Betty and Barney Hill UFO experience, which was released last September, and with new DNA tests, with new evidence, with new information that hadn't been available previously.
So I have spent a great deal of time investigating this, and I'm really excited that it's going to be aired in a two-hour documentary.
There will be the Betty and Barney Hill alien abduction and Travis Walton, both on Discovery Plus on February 18.
And I know that it will be carried to the Travel Channel, but I'm not certain when that will air.
I will check that out for the UK.
I think the series is called Shock Docs, as in documentaries.
One question I never asked you in all of these years.
Betty and Barney, of course, were driving.
I think they'd been to a wedding, hadn't they?
They were driving home through a lonely area, and they encountered a light, and then ultimately they had missing time.
They believed that they were taken on board a craft and effectively experimented on.
All these years later, and it is now, what, 60 years, was the car retained?
Was the car kept?
I know this is a crazy left-field question, but what happened to the vehicle?
Well, you know, we have attempted many, many times to track down that vehicle, and no one has ever been able to locate it.
So I suspect that it went to a scrap metal heap and was probably sold to someone else.
It's too bad that no one really was cognizant of the importance of that vehicle, especially with the shiny magnetized spots on the trunk of it.
And I want to say that Betty and Barney had not gone to a wedding.
They were on a short vacation to Niagara Falls and then up through southern Canada and through Ontario and then Quebec and were coming down through northern New Hampshire at night.
And it wasn't that they just saw a light in the sky.
The early documents, as you'll read in my book and you'll see in my presentations, have the evidence that Barney had conscious, continuous memories of observing what he called entities that were somehow not human.
They were dressed in black, shiny uniforms as this craft hovered only 100 feet above him.
This was not brought out for the first time under hypnosis.
It's part of the original documented files, and you'll hear all about that in this documentary.
I know that you've attended an awful lot of conferences and events at which people who've experienced these things down the years often attend.
I don't know.
I suspect you have on a number of occasions met Travis Walton, maybe even Calvin Parker.
When you've had a chance to talk to some of these people or when you've received their stories, because I know that you also help abductees now, do you find yourself amazed at the similarities between them?
I'm amazed at some of these similarities.
I've worked on three academic studies with PhD scientists, and I've also investigated or talked to at least a couple of thousand experiencers in addition to the 5,000 in those studies.
So in terms of Travis Walton, I have walked on that land.
I have investigated his case.
I've written about it in fact fiction and flying saucers.
In terms of Calvin Parker, I have done hypnosis on him.
And their stories are remarkable, and the evidence cannot be denied.
There are many witnesses, and they stand up over time, just as the Betty and Barney Hill case does.
I always ask you this, but I'm going to ask it again.
Is this stuff still happening, like today?
It is happening, but not as often as abductions.
It seems to have changed, and these non-human entities are coming into the homes.
You can't see them, but they come into the homes of these abductees who had been taken for many, many years.
They're now getting older.
And they have downloads of information.
They're healing humans, abductees who are having health problems.
They're doing some good things for a change.
So I'm very pleased to see that.
I know that you follow all matters ufological.
Do you think, as some people suggest, I was talking with Nick Pope, for example, at the top of my show an hour ago, do you think that we're heading for a great revelation, you know, a new truth that we're going to get?
Perhaps the revelation that we are not alone and we have to accept, that we are part of A whole cosmic convention of species?
Well, we are headed very slowly and carefully in that direction.
The U.S. government has finally come forth and admitted that, yes, unidentified aerial phenomena are real, that they have characteristics that no country on this planet is capable of duplicating.
And so this is very exciting to me.
I'm just waiting as they slowly introduce these cases of UFO abduction that have an incredible amount of evidence.
And I have to tell you, when Dr. Simon asked Barney if he had been harmed, if he had been kidnapped, Barney said, no, I wasn't kidnapped.
Because when I think of kidnapping, I think of someone who has been harmed, and I wasn't harmed.
Betty and Barney were reassured time and time again that they would not be harmed.
These entities only needed to do a few simple tests, and then they would be on their way home unscathed.
Unfortunately, they weren't completely unscathed, particularly Barney, who had the conscious, continuous memories of observing these non-humans and the belief that they were going to capture him and Betty.
It caused emotional harm to him, but it was resolved through Dr. Benjamin Simon's expertise in working with patients who have undergone trauma and have developed physiological symptoms as a result of this trauma.
Sadly, Barney left us, didn't he, a lot sooner than Betty.
Betty lived to a good old age.
How had she reconciled all of this by the time that she left us?
She said shortly before she passed from cancer that she was pleased that she had met these non-humans, that it was an experience that added to her life.
But most of all, she was pleased to have met the scientists, the military people, the UFO researchers who were interested in UFOs and in her case in particular, because she learned so much from them and they were such wonderful people.
So overall, she regarded it then as a life-enhancing experience, seems.
Yes, she did.
Even though she was frightened, it was life-enhancing.
Last question, and we've spoken many times, Kathleen.
Thank you for making time for me again.
I constantly talk with people on this subject who perhaps have discovered things they believe and have truths that they want to get out there.
And some of them tell me that there were efforts over the years to impede them, to either cause them to be ridiculed or just simply to sidetrack or sideline their work.
I've never asked you, has anybody ever tried to impede the work that you've done over these decades?
Oh, my gosh, yes.
There have been people who have threatened me.
My phone has been tapped.
I've had some problems over the years, but I'm fearless.
No one is going to prevent me from telling the truth.
No one is going to intimidate me.
And this documentary is, as they say, another brick in the wall.
What else do you plan going forward now to 2022?
The story is still very much alive after 60 years.
What else can you do?
Well, I have started a year ago with three friends, started a support group of sorts.
It's called Awakening Souls for Experiencers Who Have Moved Beyond Fear.
And we're putting our heads together to assess what has happened to everyone in this group.
Additionally, I have just written a new book.
I'm in the process of having it published.
It should be out very soon.
And the title is Forbidden Knowledge, The Life of a UFO Abduction Investigator or Investigator, a, trying to think of the name of it now, an intergenerational contact experiencer and ET communicator.
Wow.
Well, I'm looking forward to that one.
When do you think that will be out?
The Kindle version should be out within a week or two, and the hard copy should be out within a month or two.
Tell my listener what the title is again.
It is Forbidden Knowledge by Kathleen Marden.
Always a pleasure to talk with you, Kathleen.
I know that the remarkable Kathleen Marden, we will catch up with her again, of course.
Mary Joyce runs a website called SkyshipsOverCashiers.com.
On it, you will find her own thoughts and stories, and also accumulated stories from around the world on fascinating things.
One of the things that we've never really got to grips with, not that much on this show over the years, is the subject of secret underground bases, which is something that Mary knows from her research an awful lot about.
So I decided to get her on my radio show, and here is that conversation with Mary Joyce.
Mary, thank you very much for giving me your time on a Sunday.
Hey, I want to give you a compliment right off the bat.
You have a great broadcast, boys.
Thank you very much, Mary.
Please tell the boss.
I need all the plaudits that I can get, all of the references, all of the support.
So, Mary, I looked at your website.
It is a great website because there's so much in it.
Talk to me first of all about the website and how you're reaching the world through it.
I actually didn't see far enough into the future when we gave it the title.
We started seeing all sorts of UFOs above a town Called Cashiers.
It's spelled like a cashier at the grocery store.
And we just started out from there.
Well, this thing has just grown.
We started that back in 2008.
And it's gone like anywhere our curiosity decides to take us.
And we've gotten into underground bases, little people, and Bigfoot, and giants, and secret developments on Mars and in Antarctica.
And basically, I get bored easily.
And if we keep just rehashing the same thing over and over again, I don't find it very interesting.
And I suspect other people wouldn't either.
Now, we have something in common.
We're both journalists.
You know, I trained in radio, but they also made me do print training.
I know that you worked in newspapers.
Is it a difficult thing to transition from doing the kind of stories that you have to do, as I had to do as a journalist, to make the transition that I've made to doing this kind of material?
Was that difficult for you?
No, it was sort of like somebody opened the door and let me walk through it, and I've enjoyed every minute of it.
I also was in the position most of the time of being an editor at some level, so I got to either personally follow stories or get other people to follow stories.
So even then, I had freedom to do things.
So, no, it was not a major transition.
You've done a lot of research.
There is a book that I was looking at online earlier about secret underground bases.
My listeners are constantly asking me to investigate secret underground bases.
We haven't really got to grips with that topic too much on this show over the years, and it's about time we did.
What can you tell us about secret underground bases?
What do you think they are?
They're military places.
I mean, we have, they're built for different reasons.
But where I live right here in the mountains of the eastern part of the United States, the Appalachian Mountains, I have, over time, learned about five of these secret bases hidden in the mountains.
And it's not so surprising that they choose the mountains to build these things because there are huge underground caverns.
And there's a place called Mammoth Cave.
And it's, I think, 400 miles in length.
I'm sure it winds around in different ways.
So you can go underneath the ground and expand on a space without having to just core it out before you do it.
And I think that may be the reason we have at least five in this area.
Did you say 400 miles in one case?
Yeah, but I assume that isn't in a straight line.
I assume it's measuring all the different forks and stuff in the cavern.
But it is booked as the world's longest cave.
And, you know, we think we live on solid ground, but man, you get underground, you find out that this planet looks a little bit like Swiss cheese.
Now, that prompts a whole raft of questions, doesn't it, really?
Why, for example, would we need to build such things, and how can you build them in secrecy?
If this one is 400 miles long, how is that possible to do that and still keep the thing reasonably under wraps?
What I really would like to talk to you about is the one that is underneath the Great Smoky Mountain National Park.
It's probably the most visited park in the United States, so just about everybody here knows about it.
But it's a big park, and in the more remote eastern section of it is where this has been built.
And I had the great fortune of being here during the building process.
So I was aware of some of it myself.
And then there were people that I knew before any of this building started happening who lived in the area.
And I had every reason to trust them.
And they trusted me.
So they began telling me what they were seeing.
And they were taking photos of different kinds of osprey and different kinds of planes and cargo planes dropping stuff into this remote section.
And as far as I know, you cannot access it by any of the roads that are available here.
And the closest road is something with an Indian name called Hain Tugi Road.
And for two years, that was shut down.
They said it was shut down because there had been flooding and water damage.
Well, that simply wasn't the case.
They were just using that road as the closest place to get this equipment to the place they were building.
And it actually all started with this one couple.
They both have military backgrounds.
And they saw what they were certain, and they showed me a picture, they were certain it was a decontamination chamber.
It was on the back of a truck.
And they went over and talked to the person who was driving it.
It was a woman, and she said that she was waiting there for five more trucks to come.
We're talking long, big hauling trucks.
And their escorts, and they were going to be led to a remote place, and then the equipment was going to be airlifted to this spot.
And they followed it.
And not only were there escorts with these trucks that all had Navy canvas tarps over them, the guys in the escort vehicles were dressed in black and had weapons.
And so this couple followed them at a distance.
And when they pulled off into one of the camping areas, the gate was shut and nobody else could go through.
And this couple and a couple other people, another military person also, began to really check this out.
And during this time, people could hear and feel booming and grinding and all sorts of sounds beneath the ground.
They could feel the vibrations.
And one of the people that went up there went up there on a really nice day.
It was sunny and the birds were singing and everything was beautiful.
And then suddenly all the birds stopped singing.
The closer she got to where this place was, and she said she began to feel headache and nauseated or nauseous.
And it just Got worse and worse.
She stayed up there about an hour, kept trying to find out if she could learn more.
She said it felt like somebody was pounding like pylons for a bridge into the ground.
And so there was a lot of noise, a lot of airplanes.
And she said she didn't feel better until she left that area.
And then the sick feelings and the headaches disappeared.
I call it people repellent.
When I was personally checking out one of the other sites that I've investigated, other people have been with me each time.
And every single one of us in the car, the closer we got to the facility, the worse we felt.
I mean, your head feels weird.
It feels like, get me out of here.
So do you believe that they may be using subsonics or some kind of something, yeah, electromagnetic pulsing or something that just makes people feel uncomfortable?
I call it people repellent.
And so if you don't feel comfortable with it, then, you know, you're going to want to get away from what's making you feel that way.
And so she experienced, this other woman experienced this at the Smoky Mountain facility.
Not only that, I've talked to people who have been out on the trails in the remote section of the Great Smoky Mountain National Park who, you know, gone on the back trails.
And they have run into park rangers.
Well, these park rangers have had machine guns.
And this is just not the way National Park people are supposed to be equipped.
And they had people have been told to turn around and go back the other way.
One of the stories that really caught my interest was there were two men who worked at the fish hatchery in Cherokee.
Cherokee is immediately adjacent to the Great Smoking Mountain National Park.
I'll just call it the park.
And the flow of the water coming down the river or the stream began to disappear.
And so there's this dirt road that goes along the side of this creek or river.
And they were driving up there to try to find out why the water wasn't flowing.
They thought they would run into like beaver dams or something.
And there was nothing like that.
And when they got to the top where the water reservoir was, it was completely bone dry.
And there was a 50,000 gallon tank halfway buried where the old reservoir had been.
And there were pipes going from that tank down into the ground.
So the water was being diverted to whatever was underneath the facility.
So whatever they're doing there requires a vast quantity of water.
You know, when people live underground, and we know for a fact that at one of the other places, you know, it's like city-sized.
There's one we call the Perry Center, and it's six stories deep, and it's completely self-sufficient.
And so that means they have electrical power and water and anything else they might need.
And I'm sure that the one beneath the Smoky Mountain National Park is the same way.
So the question, let's talk about that Smoky Mountain National Park one.
The question is, with the scale and intensity of activity there, with the size of the thing, the amount of effort that's been put into it, what would it be for?
If it was something that was for national defense, then presumably that could be above ground.
What do you need to have, if you are the government, if you are the military, that needs to be kept from plain sight in that way, Mary?
I guess that question must have bugged you for decades.
Well, I'm sure there's multiple reasons for some of these.
But for example, the chief of the Cherokee Nation, which again is right next to the park, is considered the sovereign leader of his nation or of his people.
And so he was contacted by the government, and one of our witnesses had heard this in his office.
I mean, that's how we got the information.
And they came and explained to him that if there was ever any kind of an emergency, that they would come and get him and his family and take them to a safe place.
No doubt it was the underground facility.
So it is a place that would be able to endure an atomic bomb or any kind of bombing or disaster or, you know, it could be a meteorite, it could be any kind of a disaster.
So these facilities are built to withstand that.
Some of the facilities, and some of them may have dual purposes, would be to store things.
I mean, all sorts of government information is buried in some of these facilities just in case everything above ground gets cooked.
So I think those are the two major reasons.
So Mary, have you been able to talk to people who've actually worked there?
I've talked to people with high security clearance who have been at two of the other facilities.
One of the guys actually at that time was going off to Washington, D.C. on a regular basis to teach people about security.
And he confirmed that this facility was real.
And he was one that confirmed it was like an underground city.
We had another witness.
We've had really good witnesses.
Another one was a retired sheriff from Florida.
And he retired early because he had cancer, and he came up here.
And he loved to go out and drive in his Corvette on the Blue Ridge Parkway at nighttime.
He loved to see the stars.
Well, he stopped one night.
It was quiet, and he parked next to a rock near, I think it's called Devil's Courthouse, and he felt and heard something.
And he actually got out of his car and he put his ear up to the rock, and he could hear mechanical sounds coming from beneath the ground.
So this was a number of miles from this other facility that we call Perry, and yet it must be spread out quite a bit because he could feel that beneath his feet And hear it several miles from the center of this facility.
So, what do we believe might be going on down there?
If there is the sound of mechanical noise, that suggests that perhaps it's not only about defense, that they're doing something there.
When it comes to the Smoky Mountain facility, much of that sound was going on when we know it was being built.
So they were construction sounds that we were hearing.
The things that were heard at the Perry Center seemed to be an ongoing operation.
Perhaps it was just the equipment that would run, I don't know, their electrical system, their water system, whatever it took to keep that facility or to keep it going.
We might be dealing with two different reasons for the sounds.
Do you believe that people need to know more about these sites?
I think that the governments of the world, especially in the United States, are clamping down way too much and they are keeping us from knowing things that I think we as citizens of a nation have a right to know.
I'll change the subject just a little bit.
I have used Google Earth to explore many things.
I found something that looks like a contemporary living facility or module in the northern hemisphere of Mars and in the southern hemisphere of Mars.
I've gotten images or pictures from Google Earth of giant spaceships on the surface of Mars.
I've been able to post these on our website.
And these are not, you know, many of these things that people say that they've seen on Mars.
And you know that scientists say, well, it's pereidoy.
It's this effect that people sometimes experience where they think that they've seen something that is, you know, rational and explicable and human created on the surface of Mars.
But actually, it's just your mind trying to make sense of the patterns that you're seeing.
I'm sure that that happens, and I'm sure that some of it can be dismissed that way.
The images I'm talking about are quite clear.
I've had them looked at by many, many people, and they are not things that are like finding shapes in clouds.
They're absolutely real things with hard edges.
And the things I'm also reporting are not old things, that they're not like the face on Mars that probably was there a long, long time ago.
There is an organization that, I don't know what it's called anymore, but it meets in Washington, D.C. every spring.
And it's all about Mars.
And what their meetings are about talking about the future.
Like, in the future, we will do this on Mars.
In the future, we will do this and that.
And I have come to the conclusion that when they talk like that, it's already in existence, especially after finding this stuff myself.
And whenever I find these things that are so unusual, I put the coordinates with the articles so people can copy and paste them and put them on their own Google Earth search bar and find them for themselves because people need to be convinced that these things are real.
We have so many, I'll call them idiots, who get their kicks out of creating things with Photoshop.
And so we always have to be on guard that somebody's created something that isn't real.
So when people can go and find these things for themselves, it's pretty convincing.
Who do you think is building these things?
Is it the American government?
Is it a government behind the government?
You know, because the U.S. government, NASA, and other organizations have plans to go to Mars anyway.
Elon Musk is very keen to get there as soon as possible.
So these things seem to be, if the American government is involved, then there are two things running in parallel here.
Back in, I think it was December a year ago, the man who was the head of the Israeli security force for like at least 30 years, I can only remember his first name right now, is Hyman.
And he went public, and his statement was in the Jerusalem Times, and he said that the U.S. government and Israeli, but mostly the U.S., was working with ETs on Mars.
And his credentials are fantastic.
I'm trying to find his name now online here.
I wonder if I can.
I've got it here.
NBC News in America reported, if this is the guy, former Israeli space security chief, we talked about this on the show, but I too had forgotten his name.
Let me just see if I can get this on a browser here without crashing my computer.
It seems like the first name is H-A-I-M, I think.
And the last name totally escapes me right now.
It was Chaim.
I'm just looking down this piece here to see if I can see his name.
Eshed.
Chaim Eshed.
That's it.
Yeah.
So it was worth looking.
So there is something going on.
I've talked with people on this show who claim to have been part of a space force.
They claim to have been taken away and served in some kind of space force that has actually taken people to Mars and has been doing that for years.
Do you think all of that stuff is real?
Let's put it this way.
I have enough newspaper background in me that I can't just put speculation out there of that kind.
And it's very, well, it's impossible for those gentlemen to prove that that really happened to them.
It may have.
I'm not saying it hasn't.
But I think that our government has the ability right now to do quick transportation from here to Mars, and we don't have to do it with rocketry.
I think blowing things across space with rockets is really outdated.
And even though our government doesn't talk about it, I think they have the technology to do very advanced forms of transportation.
I think from people I've talked to, that's possible.
I'm sorry to jump in, but why would we then be spending money, wasting money, on conventional ways of getting to Mars, which we are doing at the moment, if we're already doing it?
I don't know.
I mean, is it possible that they're that intent on keeping it all secret that they would go to that extent?
I do not know.
But I am very convinced they know how to get there already and are already there.
And like I said, when I find this imagery on Mars, I'm very convinced of it.
I'm also convinced of it because sometimes when I find these things and post it on our website, within a day, sometimes the stuff I've found has been, you know, blurred, taken off.
One of the entrances I found into Antarctica, which was big enough for a giant jet to fly into with 50 feet on each side of the wingtips, I posted that and within a day, it was like somebody had poured indie ink all over it.
And thank God I had saved the picture.
So how do you think these images, the Mars images or this Antarctica image, how do you think that they get out there in the first place?
You know, if security is tight for these things, and they subsequently get taken down because you notice them, that means that somebody's falling down on the job, doesn't it?
Because these pictures are getting out there for you to see.
And then when you say, look what I found, they get taken down.
Google Earth is all over the place.
It's all over the moon, all over Mars, all over the Earth.
And I don't think that, unless they shut down the whole system, I don't think they can just totally make it unaccessible.
They would have to shut it down entirely.
And so I think it's only when they find something that's really getting out there that they don't want out there, it's shut down immediately.
Maybe they're not as efficient with this as we might give them credit for.
Which begs the question, doesn't it?
If those are the things that are getting out for you to see, what are they managing to stop from getting out before it appears, if you know what I'm saying?
Maybe this is only the tip of an iceberg.
I hear you.
I hear you.
Many years ago, one of the artists that worked for NASA confessed on, I believe, a radio station in Washington, D.C. a bunch of years ago.
And she said that they had, it was part of her job and the people that worked with her to airbrush out some of the things they were finding on the moon.
So this goes back to early moon days.
And one of the pictures I was able to post was from those early days when they weren't being real careful about the way they airbrushed it.
And there were two towers on Mars that you could clearly see had been airbrushed out.
And this was one of the original NASA photos.
It had all the labels at the top and at the bottom.
And, you know, it was part of the evidence that went along with what this woman was telling us with her words.
Mary Joyce is here.
We're talking about folds and layers of secrecy, so intense and so deep, about things that maybe we are not being told.
And maybe we need to know about them.
Things that are maybe being done in our name, or maybe not even in our name.
Astonishing things, maybe even pre-existing bases, things that are there now on Mars, for example.
The involvement of aliens with our space program, you know, astronauts seeing things, for example.
Secret underground bases.
Mary Joyce.
Properly trained journalist.
Got a background in that, has been investigating these things, and I think puts a remarkable case for all of it.
Mary, thank you for being here for us tonight.
You very neatly teed up what we're going to talk about next.
You spoke with a NASA engineer, I think he was.
A guy by the name of Clark McClelland, who worked with NASA.
You're a jump ahead of me, yes.
Before I moved to North Carolina, I lived on Cocoa Beach, right between Patrick Air Force Base and the Kennedy Space Center.
And during the time that I lived in Florida, I got to meet Clark McClelland.
Actually, met him for a couple hours with a very small group of people at a little bungalow house in central Florida.
And this was right after he found out that NASA was really after him.
He believed that the public had a right to know a little bit more than what NASA and the government was releasing to the public.
And he talked too much.
And one of the things that he saw that will always stand out in my mind was he was monitoring, he was like the man at mission control who was an astronaut who can control much of the space vehicles from the mission center or from mission control.
And on the screen, he saw the camera that was focused on the open bay of the space shuttle.
And there were two NASA folks in their outfits, uniforms, whatever, out in the open bay talking to a very tall E.T. and he saw it.
Nine feet, apparently, isn't it?
Nine feet tall.
And at another time, a different camera inside the craft caught maybe the same E.T., but one of equal size, crouched into the quarters where the astronauts were.
And he was really too big to fit in there because those facilities are made for people who aren't really beyond six feet tall.
And so he saw these things, and he felt like the government shouldn't be hiding all that from everybody.
He was really blackballed.
He lost his job.
Any kind of sensible job that he could get, he was blackballed.
His life was pretty much destroyed.
I think he managed to get by with probably Social Security and driving a bus after that.
And like the Area 51 man, Bob Lazar, did they or did he say that the powers that be had tried to erase his service and work records?
Yes.
I don't know if it was done as extensively as they did with Bob Lazar, but yes.
And like I said, they just blackballed him at everything he tried to do after that.
And he was also a friend of Dr. Werner von Braun, obviously before he got into trouble.
And when von Braun would come from the Houston Center to the Kennedy Space Center, von Braun would call Clark out and they would go out on the beach or out by the swimming pool away from people and they would just talk.
And one of the articles that I have on the website are The Secrets of Von Braun.
And he talked about Mars and he talked about the Nazis having a facility in Antarctica, which we've heard from other sources, but when you hear it from Werner von Braun, you begin to go, hmm, this is pretty good endorsement that there's truth to this.
So that connection with Clark McClellan led to this information from von Braun.
I spoke with Uri Geller a couple of months ago, who tells and retells a story of the time that he met, and I think he was photographed with Werner von Braun.
And he says that Werner von Braun, if I'm recounting this properly, took him to the place where it is thought that alien bodies might be kept.
Didn't actually take him into this place and show him aliens.
But Uri Geller says that he was taken to the place, and in fact, this made the newspapers again just a couple of months ago.
So Werner von Braun appears to know much more than the smiling Werner von Braun that we've seen photographed next to the Apollo 5, rather than Saturn V rocket for Apollo.
Yeah, I wish I could remember lots of quotes in my head.
My brain doesn't work that way.
But part of a quote from him was, we are being visited by other intelligences from other stars.
And, you know, he described the people that worked with the Germans as being taller and having blonde hair and blue eyes.
And Clark had said he had heard other Germans at the Kennedy Space Center admit that they had seen these ETs who came from El Deblan.
I have to spell that out phonetically or I never say it right, El Debel.
Did the Nazis, when we're talking about Werner von Braun, of course, he was brought to America because of his expertise in rockets.
We know him here, of course, in the United Kingdom because he is the man behind the V-1, V-2 rocket bomb that caused such devastation, so many problems for the United Kingdom during World War II.
But, of course, his expertise was vital to the Allies after the war.
So they took him across as part of the Nazification program and put him to work there, and he became the man behind Apollo.
But there are those who say that the Nazis had a space program.
There are those who claim that they perhaps had been traveling into space, maybe even gone further than that.
Do you know anything about those claims?
Yes, and he speaks to that too.
And one of the things I learned many, many years ago, maybe, I don't know, a long time ago, was from a lieutenant colonel who, when he was a young man, was in D.C. when there was this huge flyover of UFOs.
Well, those UFOs were the German spacecraft.
And, you know, obviously the Germans were working with ETs to get very advanced knowledge.
So I did not know that.
You know, we all assume that all the craft come from out there somewhere.
Well, that's not the case.
They come from here also.
What about Area 51?
Do you know anything about that?
Probably the best person that I've ever met and talked to about it was Charles Hall.
And he was a weatherman out in the remote section of, you know, near Area 51, if not actually part of it.
And there were what he called the tall white aliens that were really guests of the United States that lived there.
And he talked about that area being almost like a bus stop where cosmic tours would stop.
And, you know, he became very friendly with some of these tall ETs.
And one of the stories, which really doesn't explain much, but I found it very interesting, was he said that the female tall aliens were able to kind of disguise themselves, and they would, because they wanted to go to Las Vegas.
And Las Vegas is a screwy enough place that if somebody doesn't quite look right, you might not be called out.
And so that was one of the ways that they entertained themselves occasionally was to disguise and go into Las Vegas.
And finally, sadly, we're running out of time, but do you think that this stuff is still going on at Area 51?
There was a report this week about some kind of exotic aircraft, wherever the inspiration might have come for that, being parked near a hangar and being photographed from high up.
So do you think this stuff is still going on there?
It's still an active place.
I think Area 51 itself is not the most secret place.
Tonopaw would be certainly more remote.
I think a lot of our advanced vehicles are created and tested there.
So it's kind of a crossover between alien things and also just total advanced creations that humankind has done.
Mary, you've given...
Well, I mean, that is the problem, isn't it?
But that's also the fascination.
Mary Joyce, I'm pleased that finally, after all these years of you doing this work, I've got you on this show.
We couldn't possibly do you justice in the time.
I would love to speak with you again.
What's that website again with the wonderful title so people can go there?
With the crazy title.
Skyships Over.
And if you type in that much, you'll probably find it.
The screwy word is cashiers.
And it's spelled like a cashier at the grocery store.
SkyshipsoverCashiers.com.
Mary Joyce, and I promise absolutely to do a much longer conversation soon with her.
I'm trying to get her booked in for maybe the end of March, beginning of April if we can do it.
So watch this space for a far longer conversation with Mary Joyce.
Before that, we heard from Kathleen Marden on the Betty and Barney Hill case and a new documentary.
And before that, an update on Havana syndrome with Professor James Giordano from Georgetown University.
More great guests in the pipeline here at the Home of the Unexplained.
So until next we meet.
My name is Howard Hughes.
This has been The Unexplained.
And please, whatever you do, stay safe, stay calm.
Above all, please stay in touch.
Thank you very much.
Take care.
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