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May 16, 2021 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes
01:06:04
Edition 545 - Jacques Vallee And Paola Harris
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Across the UK, across continental North America and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes and this is The Unexplained.
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I'm not going to hang about two very important people on this show together on some new research that they have collaborated on.
Paola Harris and Jacques Valley.
Two of the best known people in ufology.
Their book is called Trinity, The Best Kept Secret.
What is this secret?
Well, it's the story of a UFO crash two whole years before Roswell, an immensely interesting case that they have researched and are continuing to research intensively.
The book is already out in digital form.
I believe that as these next couple of weeks go by, it will be out in hardcover too.
They will tell you the details at the end of this.
So I'm not going to waste any time.
This is an extended version of my conversation with Jacques and Paola from my radio show.
So there is about another quarter of an hour, maybe more here than you will have heard on the radio.
Well worth hearing.
So let's hear it.
Jacques Valet, Paola Harris, about their book and their research, Trinity, the Best Kept Secret.
Good morning.
It's very early here in California.
It's good to hear your voice.
Good to hear yours too.
Jacques and Paola.
How are you?
I'm doing well.
I'm in Colorado.
I'm in near Boulder, Colorado.
And it's great to talk to you this morning.
So you're at the home of International Time, aren't you, in Boulder?
Yes, more or less.
More or less.
That's why they have the big synchronizing clocks, I think.
But that's very much by the by.
Okay, first question.
I want to talk about a couple of general things before we get into the specific for most of this hour.
How did you come to work collaboratively on this project, on a project?
So Paola had been working on this project before me.
I came to it through other colleagues who had been retrieving strange metallic samples from different sites in New Mexico.
And they brought me into the research they were doing.
And actually, we dug in two different places in New Mexico, found some interesting things that we could bring back to the lab.
You know, I mean, that's what Silicon Valley does.
We don't care about the skeptics.
We don't care about any of that.
Give me the evidence and we'll test it and we'll go on from there, even if it's unconventional.
So we were doing that.
And then one of my colleagues there made me aware of a case which was two years before everything else, which was very, very interesting.
Two years before Roswell, before Kenneth Arnold, before all the things that people talk about on radio.
And this was a case in a place called San Antonio in New Mexico, not the San Antonio in Texas, a very small community in New Mexico where something extraordinary had happened.
And I started becoming familiar with it.
And then I discovered that Paula Harris was way ahead of me and had already investigated it and had, in fact, interviewed some of the early witnesses.
So that's how we got together.
So you were both on the same path, Paula.
Yes, but I had started five years before, Jacques, in that I had heard about it.
I lived in Rome, as you know, 1994 to 2007 when I returned to the United States.
And I had read about this in the Socorro newspaper.
So what happened was that I, you know, my mind, why aren't my colleagues jumping on this?
There's two little Indian boys and they weren't Indian, they were Hispanic, and they had seen a crash and they had been present and they're still alive.
So serendipitously, when I returned to the United States, the son of the airline, of the, sorry, the pilot, the military pilot called me and I got the name and telephone number of one of them, Remy Baca, and I began the story.
I didn't realize the story was meant for me to do and it didn't get off the ground till Jacques came aboard because it was a collaboration between science and the kind of interviewing that I do, the kind of field research.
So that's what the book is about.
It's a collaboration.
And this is the new book, Trinity, which I want to get into in detail.
Just a couple of questions for both of you, which I think are very relevant at this moment.
As we all know, there is a critical mass being reached towards so-called disclosure.
There is the report that will be released next month, we hope, which will detail perhaps what the military, security services, the U.S. government knows about this phenomenon if it comes out in the way that we think it possibly might.
People like Steve Bassett, very excited by this.
Plus, the constant emergence of new videos, new evidence, so-called Tic-Tac UFOs.
We both know, the three of us know, that at this moment, I believe, more or less, CBS in the United States is airing 60 Minutes, a documentary about UFOs.
Now, 60 Minutes for my listeners in the United Kingdom and Europe is rather like the BBC's panorama.
It is a long-running flagship documentary series, which tends not to do things like this.
So this is a question for both of you, perhaps you first, Jack.
We seem to be on the frontier of something big.
Do you concur?
I should respond with a long silence because you bring me back to the days of my youth where people were saying exactly the same thing in the 60s, in the 70s.
You know, what has changed is two things.
First, there is a market for this kind of thing because we're going back into space.
So the space agency and the space contractors want people to start looking at the sky and they want people to be happy to contribute through their taxes into the defense budget and into building more rockets and so on.
So there is now a sort of positive market force to deploying, to looking at space more.
And, you know, space is not really very exciting on TV because things happen slowly.
And so you have to get the public excited.
And this is obviously a topic that is serendipitous for this kind of thing.
The other thing is that, yes, there is a new generation that doesn't take what the government says, you know, at the exact letter.
They want to, they are aware that there have been many, many sightings and we're past the point where a skeptic could just brush it off because this has happened to in too many places.
And the military sensors, which are very good instruments that we can trust, are now showing publicly, showing things that we have not been able to explain.
So there is a convergence of these different forces that is bringing it back to, you know, to the public notice.
That does not mean that we are on the edge of a new phase of open research.
I don't see the scientific community really being very excited with that.
I was watching before this show, I was watching a program on CBS this morning where they interviewed a skeptic who essentially brushed it off as, you know, the usual misidentifications of things in the sky and said, yes, there may be aliens, but they are very far away.
And don't take this UFO stuff very seriously.
So this is still what you see on TV in the United States on CBS.
So again, it brings me back to the way the problem has been treated or mistreated in the past in the United States.
And I don't see yet a big movement for really open research and people people don't know the kind of thing that's in our book is not something that people realize.
People don't know the data.
The scientists don't know the data.
You know, the scientists are in their labs working on projects that are very valuable, for which they have money from the government.
And they're not about to shake up science just because they've seen a couple of pictures on TV.
You know, we need more.
And I think that what Paola and I are doing is feeding the scientific debate at a very, very basic level.
And that's what we want to do.
Paola, your thoughts on that?
So you don't, Jacques, you don't think that this is quite the thing that it is being presented to us as being, that perhaps, you know, the momentum is not quite as powerful as all of those things.
Do you agree with that, Paola?
Yes, and I have a different definition of disclosure.
I don't think it needs to come out of the government.
And I know my colleagues, they're waiting for a quote-unquote disclosure, but Jacques and I have been working for years.
If you bother to read the books, if you bother to look at all the cases, all my books or cases that I've done, disclosure's already happened and it's happened from the ground up, not from the top down.
I agree 100% with what Jacques is saying.
It's like the latest trend right now.
It's not really disclosure.
What we need is details.
We need a different kind of methodology.
And my problem with what's happening is I look at the agenda.
And I don't think coming from any government agency that the agenda is we want to tell the people the truth.
This has been hidden for so long that the agenda may be something else, something that we don't want.
Right.
So the message from you, Paula, and from you, Shaq, is that if you're looking for disclosure and you're expecting it to come in those report documents that we may see in weeks from now, you need to be looking somewhere else.
Well, there is a sea change in that the public now is intrigued.
Many people I know, you know, in Silicon Valley, I talk to entrepreneurs, I talk to engineers, I talk to programmers.
People are interested.
People are intrigued.
They know that something is happening for which the government or whatever the government is, but the different government agencies have not provided an explanation or a fair assessment or a framework for research.
Now, in Silicon Valley, you know, Silicon Valley has never waited for the government to do something.
Invention is, you know, there are creative people all over the place and the opportunity here to do good science, good basic scientific research is enormous.
And my colleagues, you know, May not want to go public, they may not want to necessarily give their name on radio or on television, but there is a lot of excitement around, certainly around Silicon Valley, in looking at the data because the data is extremely compelling.
And we can, when we get into the details of this particular case that Paola discovered, the data is extraordinary.
Okay, before we do that, just one very quick thing.
The U.S. edition of the Sun newspaper, United Kingdom tabloid newspaper, has been running the video of Walter Hout, who you will know was the press officer at Roswell for the Army Airfield, first Lieutenant Walter Hout.
Apparently, the recording made in the early 2000s, I think before his death in 2005, with an accompanying affidavit in which he describes a creature that looked a little like a child, but didn't look as if it was from this earth, a so-called beat-up creature, a creature that was injured, that he actually saw.
Do you think that revelation is going to be important, either of you?
Well, I interviewed Walter Hawk before he died.
He was the information officer at Roswell, and that was in his deathbed, you know, his deathbed revelations.
And I think he's telling the truth, but we're talking about Roswell.
Remember, Roswell's 1947.
What Jacques and I worked on is 1945, which is way before Roswell.
It's way before Kenneth Arnold used the word flying saucer.
And unfortunately, Roswell has become more of a media situation.
You know, you go there, it's complete Disneyland of ufology.
Roswell is very famous, but this, what we discovered, is way before that and so much more valid as far as we have.
We have the location, we have the witnesses, and we have medals.
So, you know, going back to Walter Hop, because I met him, I will say I think it's true.
Right.
Well, I think it's going to make some waves and it may be another penny on the pile.
Who knows?
So, Paola, just quickly, we're concluding this segment now.
Those who say that ufology, modern ufology, began in 1947 with Roswell, you have information for them that proves that is absolutely wrong.
Absolutely.
And both Jacques and I have been working on this case and on location.
I mean, we go there at least four times a year for the last four years.
So this is not something we did on the telephone.
This is not something we read about.
This is something we've lived in the last four years.
And I'll let Jacques talk about the details when we return.
Jacques Verlet, Paola Harris, a remarkable story that predates Roswell that you need to know about.
More about this coming soon here on The Unexplained.
Stay here.
We have Jacques Verlet and Paola Harris, different parts of the United States, same story.
The story is in their new book, which will be widely available during June, is partially available digitally right now.
It's called Trinity.
And Paola, first up, you'd been working on this, as you say, for some time before Jacques's interest and involvement in this.
I'm going to read a little bit from some information that's been put out to accompany the book.
Quotes, hard evidence has existed since 1945 for the actual recovery of unidentified flying craft in the U.S., according to new research.
Trinity, the best kept secret, written by two seasoned analysts, yourselves, they've teamed up to uncover details of a New Mexico crash in 1945, two years before the well-known incident at Roswell.
It's just important that we repeat that fact, because that is absolutely crucial to what we're discussing here.
This indicates that something large happened that was witnessed before the date in 1947 when most of us assumed all of this started powder.
Yes, and what's important is that they were children, two children, and Jacques will give you the details, that watched this craft come in and take out a piece of a radio tower and actually crash.
And the two children, and Jacques will give you the absolute details because we've, I interviewed one, he is now passed on, Remy Baca.
And Jose Padilla is still with us.
He was the nine-year-old.
Remy was the six-year-old.
They watched the whole crash and they walked up to the craft and they saw the beings.
And this is 20 miles from where we exploded an atomic bomb, which is not something to be overlooked.
And in putting together the book, the part that I really loved was the fact that Jacques went into details of the historical impact of this crash and what was going on at ground zero.
So maybe Jacques, you'd like to take over.
Just quickly, though, Paola, before we conclude this, why do you think that the witnesses that you have spoken with haven't said that much about this over these decades?
Why haven't they been more forthcoming before?
Well, first of all, the witnesses, Remy Baca and Jose Padilla, moved to separate parts of the United States and lost touch with each other.
The first person to go to Remy Baca's house was Timothy Goode, whom I consider one of the best researchers in the world.
So this case appeared in Timothy Goode's book.
He went there in person and they tried to go to Stanton Friedman, but he put it in his gray file.
Well, that's interesting because Stan Friedman, of course, who left us, what, 18 months or so ago, was very invested in Roswell, wasn't he?
Because that was his case.
That's the thing that he did so much research on.
So you're saying that Stan Friedman sidelined this because it contradicted the narrative.
Is that right?
I truly believe that because when the actual witnesses Come up to you and want to show you the location.
My God, the location, you can see the circle of where the thing crashed.
And this location itself is the property of Jose Padilla, property.
And the idea that they were able to, and this piece has been hidden, that the nine-year-old was able to go in there and pull a piece from the inside of the craft that is now with Jacques.
I mean, that's astronomical.
So, I mean, because this is so detailed, I'd love Jacques to take over at this point.
That's good.
So, Jacques, tell the story.
Well, when Paola introduced me to this case, I have been in New Mexico before.
New Mexico is a beautiful place.
It's a very, very large state in the U.S. It has its own culture, which is a mix of English-speaking and Spanish-speaking and Native American culture.
It's a very complex, very interesting background.
And what I've learned over the years investigating in different places around the world is the first thing you have to do is to understand, to become familiar.
I don't believe that some great scientist can go to the middle of the jungle in Brazil, spend two days and come back with the definite truth.
That doesn't happen.
You have to know the locale.
You have to be informed about traditions there, histories, how people speak, why they say certain things and not some other things.
Now, let me take you back to New Mexico in 1945.
This was the end of the war in Europe.
And as you know, I was born in France.
I remember World War II.
I was born at the beginning of World War II.
And the town where I grew up was bombed 17 times because it was a key strategic place on the road to Normandy for both the Germans and for the Allies.
So I remember the war.
I was in the war when, but there was no atomic explosion ever in Western Europe.
So I had to understand what was going on in 1945.
Well, the war was over in Europe, but it wasn't over in Japan.
And there was the preparations for a massive invasion of Japan.
And the estimate at the Pentagon was that it could kill up to a million people.
And the alternative was the atomic bomb.
The case, so that is the setting in which these two kids are seeing this object arrive.
The object crashed literally over their head.
They were about 20 miles from the place where the first atomic bomb was exploded, the first plutonium bomb, plutonium bomb.
And the reason they were there was that all the adults were still under uniform.
And the kids were doing all the detailed work, day-to-day work on the ranch.
They were, for example, taking care of the cows.
They were making sure that there were no intruders.
The kids were very smart.
They knew how to drive the truck.
They knew how to use binoculars to read the brands on the cattle and to check the brands.
So they were very familiar with that territory, which is very unusual, of course, in those cases.
So we have two witnesses on site as the object comes out of nowhere, hits a communication tower that was part of the White Sands complex.
Now, White Sands is where the bomb had been exploded a month before.
The White Sands area is the size of two American states put together.
It's an enormous area of essentially desert.
And this object comes out of nowhere, hits that huge communication tower, and then crashes.
but crash may not be the right term because it's obviously under power.
It, it, um, it, it, it creates a,
So when we call it a crash, yes, it was a crash because part of the object was ejected.
There is one panel that was ejected when it hit the tower.
But essentially that object, which was an oval object the size of a fairly large truck, had kept its integrity, which also is very different from Roswell, where all we have are scattered pieces of metal that fell over the desert and somebody discovered it a few days later.
Here we have two clever witnesses on the site, on their own property.
They see the thing crash.
They obviously think it's an airplane.
I mean, still the end of the war.
And there are lots of prototypes, lots of things that have crashed in that desert.
Remember, we're at 5,000 feet, okay, altitude.
So even the atmosphere, everything else is a little bit different.
And you have to take all of that into account.
They rush to the site because they know the first thing, if you're the first witness on the site, you have to help whoever may be injured.
They've learned that.
They know.
And also, you don't talk about it because this is potentially a military thing.
So it's covered by all kinds of secret.
So they are not going to talk about it for a very long time, except to their father.
The father will come with a state patrolman a day later.
There is one day that passes where they are busy in town, and then they come back with their father.
The object is partially open because that panel was ejected.
The father and the state of New Mexico patrolmen go inside the object, okay, which is intact.
The inside is intact.
And then they describe roughly what they've seen.
And then they call the Army.
Now, the U.S. Air Force did not exist in 1945.
There was an Air Force which was really an adjunct of the Army.
So the Army Air Force is called, and they send an officer.
And so all the pictures that people have when you tell that story, most of those pictures are wrong.
For example, the officer from the Army who comes to talk to the father, because the father manages the property.
The property is 80,000 acres.
This is not your backyard.
This is a very large ranch, which is leased from the federal government for essentially for cattle and other agricultural things.
They speak Spanish.
They don't speak English.
I mean, this is New Mexico.
New Mexico has a very large Spanish-speaking population.
And they ask permission to bring a truck to remove their weather balloon.
Okay.
This is funny because there were weather balloons, of course, for wind, for atmospheric testing and so on, around White Sands and around the Atomic Center, where Oppenheimer and Erinco Fermi and all these Nobel Prizes had been working, and they were still there.
So there were weather balloons.
And in fact, Mr. Pedilla's father had weather balloons that he had recovered.
So he gave, this is the funny part, if somebody ever makes a movie, the farmer gave a bunch of weather balloons back to the army.
And the army said, no, no, no, we're talking about the weather balloon that's still there, which, by the way, weighs five tons approximately from what we've been able to establish.
So this is no weather balloon.
This is no weather balloon, but let's pretend it's a five-ton weather balloon that's intact there.
Now, the kids know the area very well, and as the army sends a truck and jeeps and soldiers there to start recovering everything they can pick up from the landscape, the kids are there and they are watching for the next eight days.
We have a complete testimony day by day by day of what happened there, when it rained, what the temperature was.
We know, we've reconstructed everything about the environment during that entire recovery.
So we have a blow-by-blow description of how the army went about recovering this.
And this was the first sort of modern retrieval.
And it's very different from what you see on TV in Spielberg's movies where, you know, they wear special suits and radioactivity things and so on.
The kids, I mean, the army sent young soldiers from White Sands there.
And there was probably 10 to 20 of them there, sort of picking up things over the landscape and helping load this so-called weather balloon on an 18-wheeler truck, okay, to remove it and to take it to a lab somewhere.
So we have reconstructed all the details of that.
The reason the book is called The Best Kept Secret is that it was kept by the federal government secret, and it was kept secret by the witnesses.
The witnesses, again, you have to reconstruct, you have to put yourself in the climate of, you know, this was the end of the war.
Everybody had been instructed, "You don't speak.
You don't talk about what you see.
You don't talk about any military things." Because there are spies around.
And, you know, there were all these posters about- Yes, Uncle Sam wants you to stay silent.
Okay, don't talk about what you see.
And they were, so when Roswell came, they never came up.
They never said, talk about what they had seen.
Also, you know, at the end of the recovery, the truck was left idle because it was safe.
The thing had been loaded.
It was going to go back to Wild Sands.
The kids, one of the kids, Mr. Padilla, who is still alive, went inside because he wanted a souvenir.
Again, you might ask, you know, why, what's so important about souvenir?
Well, they explained that to us.
They said this was a war.
Many people died.
You know, many people in your family didn't come back.
You know, somebody would bring you an American flag and would say, you know, I'm sorry, but, you know, your uncle died on the front in Europe.
And you wanted to preserve souvenirs were very important because they were the only tie you had to the time before, to the family, to your land, to all of that.
So they wanted a souvenir and they took one of the objects, the only really remaining interesting object that was inside.
And we have it now and we're analyzing it.
Are you not surprised, Jacques, just quickly, that they were able to get back inside there and do this when, as you say, there was a lot of military presence involved in the recovery?
Well, the military were 18-year-olds who were eager to be released into their life, their normal life.
The war in Europe was over.
Japan had capitulated just a little over three weeks before.
What people have missed, and of course, it was a best kept secret for the army.
The army never spoke about it, as opposed to Roswell, where this was news immediately.
This was never news until 65 years later.
And when the two witnesses were reunited and started talking about it because there was no danger anymore for them in their own life.
So they felt free to talk about it, but they had been so their life had been changed deeply by what they had seen.
And they had gone their own way.
They had raised families.
They had had careers.
And Paola is the one who was able to reconstruct their story and bring it together into a rational narrative.
Okay, quick question before we conclude this segment, get back to Paula about that, Jacques.
If they had the presence of mind to collect a souvenir, why did they not have the presence of mind to take photographs?
Well, okay, we're dealing with 1945.
You have to understand, there were no magazines.
There was no frame of reference for the word UFO hadn't even, flying saucer hadn't even been done.
These guys were the children of farmers.
So that's what they knew.
I mean, when Jose told me he rode a horse at the age of three and drove a truck at the age of nine.
The thing about Jacques that I loved working with is that we went back and reconstructed the era.
And when you asked about the army, the army that you're thinking of isn't what was there.
There were young boys and when they picking up the debris, they had the Jeep on a radio on playing country Western music.
Right.
So they had no idea what they were dealing with.
No, and that wasn't a regular army.
It was like, and there was only one watering hole and that was the owl bar and cafe where Oppenheimer and the scientists were housed in the back.
And Jacques and I have hung out there for the last three years just in that, it's like a greasy spoon.
I mean, the hamburger with the chili is their greatest thing.
And at that time, since it was the only watering hole, those soldiers met girls there at the soda fountain and they were going to have a big trip.
So they left the thing to go to the, they care, they don't know what that is.
So they went to the owl box.
So we have to look at this in context.
Hold that thought, Paola.
We'll be back with you in just a second.
The astonishing story out now, Trinity, the best kept secret.
Jacques Valley and Paola Harris were talking about Trinity the best kept secret two years before Roswell and significantly different in all kinds of ways.
Now, the story says that not only was the craft recovered, but also its occupants, Paola.
Talk to me about that.
Well, actually, we don't know what happened with its occupants because the boys, and if you can imagine this, they had their binoculars.
They went close to the crash site.
The mesquite was burning.
It was all, the whole area was burning.
And the whole area, by the way, is altered.
Jacques can talk about that after 60 years.
All the plants are dwarfed.
There's the whole area has changed due to two things, the atomic bomb and that crash.
And what happened was that the boys were present watching the beings.
And they were, and I'll let Jack describe them.
They were watching for almost two hours.
They stood there.
And what Jose, the older one, felt because he heard them make noises, he said, like a crying baby.
He felt they were hurt.
So he wanted to go in and help them, but the six-year-old started to cry.
He was afraid.
So they went home right away and told the father.
But you have to see this scene.
These are two kids who see creatures, or they call them little men, homo sitos.
They see these little men almost their size.
They have no frame of reference.
They've never seen TV.
They've never seen a magazine.
And what happens is that the day after, two days after, when they go back with Sheriff Apadaka, the patrolman and the state patrolman and the father, those beings aren't in there anymore.
So it's your guess as good as mine what happened.
And Jacques, you might want to describe what they saw through the hole that had been blasted away.
Jacques, what did they see?
What's also very important about this case is that it's pristine because there was no report for over 60 years.
So it can be used as a standard by which to compare with other cases.
And essentially what they saw is a type of creature that was humanoid.
It had two legs and two arms.
They were not wearing any breathing equipment.
So what does it say about them being alien?
I mean, they were breathing our air.
And it conforms to what you mentioned before, Walter Hart's description at Roswell.
They were very similar to what he described.
They were the size of the kids.
I mean, They were about three feet tall.
They had sort of, you know, very spindly legs.
They had arms that reached down to their knees.
They had four fingers.
But they had a large head with two eyes.
I mean, a normal configuration, but the head was larger than their shoulders.
So you're beginning to, and in the book we show creatures that are similar.
There are a number of insects that tend to look like this.
And in the descriptions, now what I started working from were the transcripts of Paola's very detailed, very careful, methodical interviews of the two witnesses, both Reni Baker, who by then was near Seattle, in the state of Washington, and Mr. Padilla.
Going word by word, you can see when you analyze the text, when you analyze the words that they were using, they go back and forth from talking about the men or the little men and talking about the beings as something like an insectoid, like sometimes some types of crickets that can look almost humanoid.
And the book contains a number of pictures comparing these beings to other creatures described in other very reliable UFO reports from other countries and certain types of insects.
There are other aspects to this that are fascinating because obviously when you, again, when you analyze the transcripts and you try to reconstruct what the clock time was and how long they spent, the kids were obviously in an altered state.
And I don't want to use the word psychic because it's one of those words that like disclosure that can mean too many things and really don't mean anything.
But there was an impression on their minds.
They were in an altered state where they felt that these beings were trying to communicate with them.
And we've gone into details.
We don't do hypnotic regression because it's not a good way to analyze these cases.
But you can approximate it by allowing the witnesses to get back into that time.
And we see that on the transcript because they go from a past tense, you know, I was there and my horse was doing this, to the present.
You know, I'm there.
They look at me.
I look at them.
They are moving in a funny way.
They are not really walking.
They are here and then they are there.
They translate themselves back and forth.
They cry.
You know, this is, it brings you back to the actual instant.
You can tell that they are reliving something that has changed their life.
Because of the amount of detail.
Were the creatures taken out of that craft alive or dead?
They were alive.
We don't know where they went.
One speculation is that, as in other cases, maybe they had, you know, they were taken out by some of their own companions or perhaps there was one day where the kids were not on site.
Some part of the U.S. Army, some detachment could have gone there and inspected the area, cleaned the area and taken out the creatures.
We just can't tell.
And the craft also eventually, after the recovery operation, which we've talked about, disappeared, and you have no idea where the craft went?
Oh, yes, we do.
You do?
Yes, we do.
Because so the question for me, as you know, as much as Paola, I've been researching this for a very long time.
Ever since I saw something in France that I couldn't explain and that my colleagues at Paris Observatory and other places could not explain either.
And I had two other witnesses with me.
So I've been doing this for a long time.
And people talk about, you know, people with clearances having had access to strange metals and so on.
This case never came up.
So the question is, how come it never came up?
Because some of the people I've spoken to, as you know from my other books, had access to military records, including classified records.
And this is not in the military classified records.
So what could it be?
Well, so you ask, you know, how do we classify secrets in the United States?
Everybody thinks, you know, the CIA has these secrets and so on.
So there are secrets that go to the president that are, you know, the secrets of the main administration, the DOD and so on.
Then there are foreign intelligence secrets, diplomatic secrets and so on, that are preserved in a different channel.
And it's a different system of clearances.
And it does not go to the president unless there is a need to brief the president about a particular situation that is developing around the world.
I mean, you cannot inundate the White House with all the things that happen all day, all night, all around the planet.
So did the president, did the White House get to know about this?
No.
And you said that you knew where the craft was taken.
Is that right-Patterson Airbase?
Certainly not.
remember, this was an atomic area, it was covered by the atomic secrets.
The atomic secrets go to the Department of Energy, and there is a special type of clearance called the P clearances, the Q clearances, the R clearances that are completely segregated.
Now, there obviously are people on the staff of the president who have both the diplomatic clearances and the atomic clearances.
But you would not, those clearances are segregated and they only go to the president under a very special procedure.
So that craft would have been taken to an atomic laboratory, probably Los Alamos, which was just very, very close, just about 200 miles north of there.
They remember 200 miles in the American West is just a little short excursion, a short promenade.
So it was very close, 200 miles away, and they had the best laboratories in the world for atomic physics.
So this is all documented somewhere?
Yeah, we have a pretty good idea because Renee Baca was close to the governor of the state of Washington, a woman who had been head of the Atomic Energy Commission.
And she knew about the story and she showed him a report.
She didn't give it to him, but she showed him the report on the case, which came from the Atomic Energy Commission.
Right.
And probably never went to the desk of the president.
But it was known about.
And there are those within government who will have been aware, even if it didn't go to the White House.
Very, very, very few.
I'm going to have to wrap the conversation up for radio listeners now, frustratingly enough, because time is always against us in these things.
The conversation will continue for my podcast listeners.
And continuing now, Jacques, I think, and Paola, for my podcast listeners, if this is okay for you both, just for a few minutes, because there are some remaining questions.
And Jacques or Paola, you said there was a souvenir and that souvenir went somewhere.
Yeah, let me go back to the idea because everybody's going to go to Blue Book.
They're going to go to Wright-Patterson.
They're going to think the old way.
This is not the old way.
What I'd like to really emphasize is, first of all, this is no accident.
I think it was a gift.
It was one month after the atomic bomb.
The book is frameworked with the scientists Fermi, Enrico Fermi, and Oppenheimer that were working there at the time.
If they're near the Al Bar and Cafe, they're going to know about this crash.
This is a response to the world changing its course.
In other words, the atomic bomb blast of July 16th, 1945 changed the whole entire world.
I mean, we can't put the genie back in the bottle.
It was a very, very powerful time on the timeline.
Whatever was watching or whatever was out there, whoever was out there was not on vacation.
They were watching a specific event only 20 miles from where the bomb was.
It wasn't even tested.
It was released.
The people that were involved with the testing of the atomic bomb initially did not tell the town what it was exploding.
So we also have all the repercussions, including the blinding of Jose Padilla's mother when she opened the door at 4.30 in the morning and saw the light of a thousand suns.
So this is like really important that we emphasize because Jacques and I wrote this book as a historical book.
It's not a UFO book.
And it's very important that science, ufology, and history and social studies and all of that come together.
So, you know, going back to the souvenir, these are two little kids and how two little kids think.
And the souvenir was buried under floorboards initially in the sheepherders shack.
And then it was taken out of there and buried underneath some area on the Padilla Ranch.
They only came together 60 years later because both of them, Jose went to the Korean War, Remy went and did his thing in Washington State.
And it was serendipitously, Howard, that it came together and that I was able to befriend both of them.
But I'm going to say this last thing.
I think those beings knew that Jacques and I were going to write this book.
I think on some level of time and space that this book has a significance because of the atomic bomb.
And those beings, I couldn't do it in five years.
I brought everybody in the world down there, including Mufan.
I did a lot.
Then Jacques came along and he framed it.
Framed it means he put it in the context of the timeline.
And that's what makes this book so great.
Yes, it's important to understand not only that something happened, but it didn't happen randomly.
There was a context to that crash.
There was a context to where it was.
And there was a context to how it happened.
And I think it's, as you say, as a matter of history, Paola, it's important we know that.
But I'm just interested in the souvenir.
Has that been recovered now?
Has it been found?
Is it being analyzed?
So the, you know, I don't work By myself on this, I know what I can do.
As you know, I'm really a computer science nerd.
And, you know, I like computers, I like to work with databases.
And what I do is to look for patterns.
I don't look for one particular case that's going to solve the whole problem as people are trying to do today on American TV.
There is no such thing.
In science, you need patterns, and you need to analyze those patterns to go up to really a theory that explains what people have seen.
And that's what I try to do.
Now, in doing that, I need help from people who know more than I do in many areas, certainly in biology.
And we have access to biologists, again, in this area in California.
We also have access to physicists and to metallurgists, to people who can test the metal.
We have the bracket, we have the object.
It has been donated to a university for safekeeping.
So once we're done with the analysis, it will go to a safe area where it's going to be kept by that under academic study.
Which university, Jacques?
I don't want to say it because it's going to be held for 10 years without public access, but experts will be granted access to it for further testing after we're done.
There are other pieces of it that other people have, because over the years, people have taken samples from it.
There have been good analyses.
Paola mentioned the book by Timothy Good.
At the time, there was already an analysis.
The metal of which it's made is not particularly interesting.
It's an alloy that was used around that time.
It's called silamen, S-I-L-U-M-I-N.
Essentially, it's an aluminum alloy.
But when you look at the structure, it has some very interesting features.
And we don't understand what it was doing there.
It doesn't look alien, it looks human, but it was evidently part of some device that you needed for guidance of the object.
We disagree, my colleagues and I disagree about it, and frankly, I disagree with Paola about what it may be.
My first impression was that it was something the army had brought in for their own, you know, for maybe for power, maybe to wrap a power cable around it.
It looks pretty crude.
And my colleagues, you know, around here are saying, well, when we look at it with a microscope, we see some fine structures that contradict that.
It could be a pretty sophisticated object when you really look at the details.
We don't know yet.
And that's where research is exciting.
I mean, that's why, you know, personally, I got into science to do things like that.
And of course, as we come to the end of this, the big question of all the questions is the bodies of the beings.
You know, if the, well, I don't know how long these beings live or lived, you know, where would they be?
They have to be, if they were retrieved, as was the craft, the bodies of the beings have to be somewhere.
Yes.
Again, people immediately jump to the conclusion that there are aliens.
Well, you know, biologists I talk to say it's very likely that there are, in fact, aliens out there in the universe.
For one thing, we cannot be so arrogant that we would put any limits to what the universe can do.
So if we exist, there must be other creatures.
But they very probably would not be humanoid and they very probably would not breathe our air.
Now, they could be artificial.
I mean, there could be aliens out there that have created insectoids that breathe our air and our artificial creatures that are disposable.
And they could be using them, and they don't care if they die.
And they would be using them the same way we use robots.
So you could think of them as sort of automata, biological automata.
And some of my friends have been speculating along that line.
We don't know.
Again, we have to go back to the witnesses.
The two witnesses were very emotional about those beings.
They wanted to save them.
They wanted to help them.
And we don't know where they were taken.
They may have been taken by their own and removed somewhere, and they may be still alive.
Or they may have been captured by the first detachment of the army that went there when the kids were not watching.
What a mystery.
So, Paola, as we conclude this, it seems to me that you've both done some very important research on something that we need to know about.
But it would seem to me, and for both of you really, but Paola, let me bring you in.
This is work in progress then.
This is not finished now.
Oh, no.
It's nine years now.
And, you know, may I encourage the researchers out there to collaborate the way Jacques and I did.
And you cannot do a case in, as you know, even with the Roswell case in a month or pick up a phone and do a case.
We really did this case on location.
And I found a third witness, which we haven't talked about in this interview.
And it was quite by accident.
Jacques and I were sitting near the mobile home of Jose Padilla.
He mentioned his niece, who was a child at the time.
And we looked at each other and we said, Did she see anything?
And he goes, Oh, yes, she was living with us.
And this is just recent.
I looked at Jacques and said, Oh my God, we got to get to her because we had lost Remy.
He died of diabetes and we got to get to her fast.
So she was living in California and near Wilshire Boulevard in Los Angeles.
And Jacques and I flew up there immediately.
And she gave us the most fascinating testimony.
And it was different from Jose's because she was inside the house for a long period of time after Jose left at the age of 17 for the Korean War.
She talked about fiber optics that the father had picked up.
She talked about a foil that was curling up and that she was playing with when she was a child, strips of foil.
Which, of course, we heard about two years later in Roswell.
Yes.
And we didn't get that kind of testimony from Jose because Jacques and I figured out the father went back and got materials that Jose didn't even know about.
But this child had them in the house and played with them.
What happened to them?
Well, you know, it was at least 75 years ago, so we don't know.
At that time, I don't think they thought it was anything special.
The fiber optics, in fact, I can see a movie starting with this.
When they picked up 10 pounds bag of fiber optics, they decorated their Christmas trees with them because they were lit up and they put them on the windows of Christmas and the whole town wanted some.
And they didn't realize how futuristic those things were.
No, because they were lit up all the time by themselves.
And she talked about the properties of these things.
And these for science, because Jacques will tell you scientists are involved in this, were astronomical in that these are testimonies that that was what came out of this craft.
So, Jacques, what needs to happen now?
The first thing is to change, this changes the narrative about UFOs.
This is really a communication at a symbolic level, not something that we're just going to take apart and we'll come up with new weapons and we'll win.
This is at a much more discrete level.
It's an impact on our entire culture.
It's a response to the atomic age and it's been developing ever since.
So we need to bring in research in anthropology to understand what is happening to this generation, what is happening as those images are circulating now.
The other thing on the pure scientific standpoint is, you know, what Silicon Valley is good at.
You don't care what people say.
We don't care about the skeptics.
Skeptics have not really made any intelligent comment about any of this.
We are taking it to selected experts that we know, asking them to please look at this and tell us where this could lead.
What are the places in science that this is challenging?
And what can we learn about it?
What does it tell us about informing the level of the future investigations we're going to do?
And in the book, we relate, again, I'm looking for patterns, and we relate this particular case to two other cases that have been studied in great detail by official agencies, both in France and in the United States, namely the Valencia case in France, which was studied in detail by five different agencies of the French government.
And I have the pleasure to be a part of an advisory board of the CNES, the French Space Agency, that now holds those records about Valencia and the case in Socorro, New Mexico, about which we discovered some completely new things that have not been in movies, have not been in documentaries before.
Socorro is just eight miles straight north of where this thing crashed.
Very close in Socorro was the 1960s, and this was where a police officer had, I guess, what you would call a close encounter, and he was derided and ridiculed for a long period, wasn't he?
But this was a very credible case.
It was a Solani Zamora case, which was in the movie Phenomenon by James Fox.
And it's very valid, and it was very close to where this happened.
I was involved at the time because I was an associate of Dr. Hynek in Chicago.
And Dr. Hynek was, of course, the expert for the U.S. Air Force who was sent to reconstruct, to study the case in Socorro and spoke to Lonnie Zamora.
And we've gone back to that site recently.
So there is much, much more for us to learn about this.
This is just the beginning of a process.
And for now, the book is going to start, it seems to me, a ball rolling.
If you'd like either Jacques or Powler to give me the details of the book so people know what it's called and how they can get it here in the UK and around the world.
Well, the book is called Trinity, The Best Kept Secret.
It is on amazon.com and it is in e-book form, in a hardcover, and in paperback.
And I know that the e-book and the paperback are probably available now.
And Jacques, about the hardcover, when will that be released?
It probably takes about a week for the hardcover to be listed by Amazon.
Right.
So we're looking for the hardcover.
We're looking sometime into June.
Probably before June 1st.
So it's a rollout.
You know, they are rolling out the different versions.
The e-book is already there.
There are a number of very interesting comments already by people who've read it, who've, you know, already finished reading it, commenting on the Amazon site for the book.
And the paperback is now available.
People can order the paperback.
Congratulations to both of you on doing something that I think is going to be very, very important research and will be seen as being such.
I hope we talk again.
And it's wonderful to get both of you together.
Jacques and Paola, thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Your thoughts, as ever, welcome on this.
I think that is pretty amazing stuff.
And as you heard, this research is by no means over yet.
More great guests in the pipeline here at The Unexplained Online.
So until next we meet, my name is Howard Hughes.
This has been The Unexplained.
And please, whatever you do, stay safe, stay calm.
And above all, please stay in touch.
Thank you very much.
Take care.
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