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Feb. 23, 2021 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes
01:13:51
Edition 521 - Terry Lovelace
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Across the UK, across continental North America, and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is still Howard Hughes and this is still the Unexplained.
Well, the good news is that the big freeze in London has pretty much subsided.
Now it's just the grey stuff and the rain.
I'm looking forward to some sunshine.
There were times when I even began to doubt whether the sun existed anymore.
Hopefully we're going to see it.
I hope you're getting by.
Thank you very much for all of your nice emails.
Just a couple of shout-outs to get to before we get into the guest Terry Lovelace and an extraordinary alien abduction case, like you've never heard on this edition of The Unexplained from Texas, where they've had a big, deep freeze in the last few days as I record this.
Just a few people to say hello to.
Tain in New Zealand, been listening for 10 years or so.
Tain, really nice to hear from you.
Thank you for the nice things you say.
Paul and many other listeners enjoyed the episode that I did with Lionel Friedberg, an astonishing man.
I'm still getting mail about him, and we must have him on again.
Adrian and many other people enjoyed the recent podcast with Dr. Stephen Greer, the conversation with him.
Some people didn't, but a lot of people did.
Thank you for the feedback on that.
Ed in St. Louis suggests that we do a show about cryptocurrencies.
I have talked about that on the radio, Ed, but I will do that.
Marty in New Jersey, nice to hear from you again, Marty.
It's been a little while.
Nice to know that everything's okay with you.
And oh, Vicky in Canada.
Heard from Vicky in the last day or so.
Nice to hear from you, Vicky.
We were talking about the ghosts of Canada and America too, but we were talking recently about the ghosts of Canada.
And we mentioned a particularly haunted place, said to be one of the most haunted places in Canada, a jail in Ottawa.
Vicky has actually spent more than a night there, I think, Vicky.
Maybe we should be talking about that at some point.
Thank you for your email, Vicki.
If you'd like to get in touch with me, always good to hear from you.
If your email requires a reply, it will get one.
Please go to my website, theunexplained.tv, designed and created by Adam from Creative Hotspot.
Thank you, Adam, for all that you do.
You can send me a message from there.
And if you'd like to make a donation for the continuance of the show, that will be gratefully received.
And if you have done that recently, thank you very, very, very much.
And you know who you are.
Thank you for your contributions to The Unexplained.
What is it now?
It's 2021, isn't it?
So 15 years, 15 years, The Unexplained has been running next month.
I can't believe that.
And I was sitting in the same rickety old chair, in the same rickety old apartment doing it.
I've learned a few things since then.
This edition of The Unexplained, I get constant emails from people asking me about podcasting and, you know, how do you do it and what equipment do you need?
This edition, I've gone back to an old friend for those who are interested.
Skip this bit if you're not.
I'm using my Sure SM57 old faithful microphone to do this.
And there's a kind of intimacy about this.
You know, if you're starting out in all this, you do not have to spend hundreds of dollars or pounds on the gear.
You can get yourself, you know, simple interface or mixer.
And, you know, a sure SM57 dynamic microphone with a bit of foam on the end to stop you popping and blasting will be a friend for life.
You know, it will outlive you.
And that's exactly what I'm using this time.
And it's just nice to be using it again.
Okay, you can join me again now.
Thank you very much to Haley for setting up the shows too, for doing my setup.
Couldn't do it without Haley or Adam.
Thank you to them very much indeed.
And like I say, if you want to get in touch with me, go to the website theunexplained.tv.
Follow the link and you can send me an email from there.
And if you want to check out my Facebook page, the official Facebook page of The Unexplained with how it used, that would be very nice.
And that's where I put news of what's going to be on the radio show and the podcasts and various things there.
All right, let's get to Texas now, which has been incredibly cold the last few days.
Terry Lovelace has a story for you that he's written down in book form.
Terry's story is the story of an alien abduction.
Two people taken away.
A story not quite like any of the abduction stories that you've heard on The Unexplained, although it has certain elements of some of them.
You tell me what you think about this.
Terry Lovelace, the guest on this edition of The Unexplained.
Let's cross to him right now in Texas.
Terry, thank you very much for being on my show.
Thank you very much, Howard.
It's very much a pleasure to be here.
I appreciate the opportunity to talk to your audience.
Your story's been told before in other places, but you and I have never spoken.
And I'm fascinated by you and your story.
But before we get into you and your story, and then the subject of what occurred to you, this has been an extraordinary few days as we record these words at the beginning of the week.
This will be actually released at the end of the week.
This has been an extraordinary time in Texas where you're based, isn't it?
You have seen sub-zero temperatures for a protracted period.
It has.
It began as a once-in-a-hundred year occurrence, and now it has shattered all records.
And yeah, it's been a week of single-digit R sub-zero temperatures, ice and snow.
There are 254 counties.
Texas is a large state, and every single county is a disaster area.
That's an astonishing story because, you know, I have friends in Texas.
I've yet to visit.
I've always wanted to.
One day I will.
But I regard Texas from what they tell me as being a place of very nice weather, as we call it in the United Kingdom.
Plenty of sunshine even in the wintertime and none of this.
What happened as far as you're being told?
You know, it's crazy.
I don't know what to attribute it to.
I've not heard anyone make a claim as to cause.
So causation is a mystery.
I don't know, but it's certainly an odd occurrence.
And there were people, I think some talk show hosts were saying that the fact that there are so many wind farms generating power there and a lot of those froze, which is unprecedented, was part of the reason why your power went down.
I'm wondering if it was quite that way.
I think that was a minuscule part of the equation.
The larger part was that the electricity generating infrastructure here is designed to accommodate hot weather, but not designed to accommodate the cold.
So it had vulnerable water lines and the like, and the generators just weren't equipped to handle temperatures below 15 degrees for an extended period.
So all those things could have been averted by proper, you know, like they do in the northern states, by proper insulation and the like.
But here there was no need to spend the expense.
It's interesting.
Texas sits alone.
It doesn't share electricity in the other two power grids because it doesn't want interstate, it doesn't want to go state to state and be subject to interstate commerce commission regulation.
Right, so Texas wants to stand alone, but that has costs.
That's right.
That's right.
As you've discovered, my.
Well, that is fascinating.
And just the last question on this before we move off it.
And I'm glad that things appear to be improving now as we record this, I think.
How have people coped?
You know, as well as they can.
They did open up warming centers for people.
So people that we lost power for about 18 hours, but I have a humongous fireplace and all the wood in the world.
So we were able to keep the house, you know, 60 degrees or so.
But for those that don't, a lot of them had to go to centers or bunk up with someone that still had power.
That is an extraordinary thing.
And I'm sure the inquests will be happening about this and the climatologists will want to have their say.
But thank you for telling me about that.
On to you, Terry Lovelace.
Now, you've had quite a life.
Some of that, a lot of that has been to do with the law and some of that has been to do with the military.
Tell me your story.
Sure.
I spent six years on active duty in the United States Air Force.
I enlisted in 1973, right out of high school, and I became a medic.
I didn't want to be a combatant.
I wanted to be a non-combatant under the Geneva Convention, you know, for personal reasons, not religious reasons.
And I became a medic in an EMT, drove an ambulance, emergency medical technician, drove an ambulance, and worked my entire six years, spent my entire six-year enlistment at Whiteman Air Force Base, which was a SAC base, a nuclear base with nuclear-armed B-52s and Minutemen II ICBM missiles spread out all over the countryside, very rural location.
And I worked with a gentleman referred to as Toby Tobias.
And Toby and I were the best of friends.
We worked together on a night shift for three years together.
And he came to me one evening and said, let's go camping.
But I'll get into that in a minute.
I finished my enlistment in 1979, finished my education with a bachelor's degree in psychology and went to the University of Michigan for law school, passed the bar and was in private practice for a time and then became a civil servant as assistant attorney general for the U.S. Territory of American Samoa.
And then from there, I went to the state of Vermont, where I finished my career in 2012 and retired.
So that is quite a distinguished legal career and government service career.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
That's very complimentary.
I appreciate that.
So how come a man who's got a background like that has a big story to do with what we would call alien abduction?
What happened?
You know, what happened goes back to my childhood.
It really, I had the big event, the abduction that I have memory of and had wounds and suffered injury from, happened in 1977 when my friend Toby and I were camping in a northwest Arkansas state park in a very remote area.
As a matter of fact, we weren't aware of it, but we had trespassed across a fence with a sternly worded keep-out sign into what we thought might have been a nature preserve or something, but it is land owned by the federal government, managed by the Bureau of Land Management.
And we found this plateau that we could camp atop and had just set up just a one, it was a perfect place to set up a campground.
And that's where we were taken from.
That's where you were taken from.
So there you are with your friend enjoying the American heritage of the great outdoors.
And you're saying that you came into contact with something that most people don't come into contact with, yeah?
Yeah, and you know, the circumstances were just odd in that neither one of us, we were both city kids and had never been camping in our lives, had no idea what we were doing.
But, you know, it's not all that complicated.
You take a cheap tent and a cooler full of snacks and two blow-up air mattresses and you're good to go.
So we made the truck down there, but we didn't stay in the campground.
Like I say, we went to a remote part of the park.
And the whole thing, in retrospect, had almost like the vibe was kind of almost like we were keeping an appointment, like we were meant to be there.
Right, so there was a funny feeling about it from the beginning, you say.
There was.
There sure was.
And you had a feeling something was going to happen, and then it did.
In your case, when we think about aliens, abduction, craft, we all kind of think of David Vincent in The Invaders.
It's a deserted piece of ground and a man too long without sleep, and then suddenly something appears from the sky that's lit and peculiar, and then out of it come beings.
And, you know, just as David Vincent realized there was something weird here, was that the kind of story that unfolded for you?
That's not much dissimilar.
We had a strange event, and we saw on the western horizon a cluster of three little stars sitting just above the horizon, too far above the horizon To have been lights from a parking lot or a train.
Plus, we were in a really remote location.
And we were just mesmerized by these three little lights.
And our reaction to them was muted.
It was really inappropriate.
We had no fear.
And I know that this sounds cliché, but I think that this is relevant.
And I've heard this from other people in other situations.
The sounds of the forest, the crickets, the tree frogs, all the insects and things that make noise at the forest fell silent immediately before this.
And what about the lights and the phenomenon itself?
Was that making any noise or did it appear to be sucking the noise out of the scene?
You know, in all these years, I've never thought of it as sucking it out of the scene, but that's certainly a possibility.
My feeling all these years is that it speaks to the level of control that these things have over human beings and human nature, human emotions.
We watched it as it went up into the sky, and this feeling of calm washed over us, almost a sedated feeling.
And we had no conversation to speak of.
We saw these three lights climb to what I call a ceiling.
I can't tell you how high it was.
I had no point of reference.
But it pointed, it was triangular, and it pointed the nose, the apex of the triangle in our direction.
And it started a gentle glide from high up down toward us.
It was clearly headed in our direction.
And we watched it tumble where it would do a, you know, turn around and do like a somersault type thing.
And I had the, I don't know where this came from, but I had the impression that it wasn't tumbling out of control.
It was moving with intent.
It was, you know, traveling like that on purpose.
I don't know if it was their way of telling us that it's intelligent or what.
So did the two of you clearly had the idea that this thing was there for you?
You weren't just in the wrong place or the right place at the wrong time or the right time.
This thing was actually making some kind of statement to you.
I think so, yes.
Yes.
But again, we had our emotions were in an odd place.
There was even a mild disinterest.
I felt more like an observer than a participant is the best way to describe it.
And we watched it glide in over the tops of the trees, and it stopped about 3,000 feet over the meadow where we were camped.
And it was absolutely enormous.
It was a city block in length on each leg of the triangle.
Each point of the triangle had lights on it that were white.
They would later change to multicolor.
And at that point, we didn't hear any noise to speak of at all.
But that would change later.
And that disinterest and sedated feeling shifted abruptly to all I wanted to do was go to sleep.
I just, and my friend was in the same frame of mind.
We almost in unison picked up our air mattresses, went over to the tent, threw them in.
I didn't bother to undress or unlace my boots.
I just threw the air mattress in.
It fell on top of it, and I was out.
And between the two of you, were you acknowledging between yourselves what was going on?
Were you saying, gee, this is the weirdest thing that I've ever encountered?
I mean, this thing is as long as a battleship on three sides.
No, there was no conversation between us.
And again, I think that speaks to their influence.
We were doing what they wanted us to do, and that was to go to sleep.
They took us as soon as we were asleep, I'm sure.
We bore both, this was 1977, we both, because of our jobs, a watch was necessary to our work.
So we both had decent lined-up mechanical watches.
Both of our watches had stopped at 240 and never worked again.
What, even after the incident, they stopped?
Yes, they stopped at 2.40.
And we woke up, I'm guessing, sometime near 5 o'clock a.m.
I woke up because there was this light.
There were these lights that were extremely bright, brilliant flashes of white and orange and green light that came through the canvas of the tent at odd intervals and would light up that tent like it was daylight.
And I woke up and I don't have my wits about me.
And I'm thinking, I see these lights and I'm thinking that maybe they're the overhead flashing lights from a park ranger's truck there to kick us out.
And it wasn't so at all.
So at that stage, you were not making a connection with the thing that had caused you to go back into the tent and go to bed and go to sleep.
You weren't making a connection between what you had seen and what you were now seeing.
No, I was confused.
I sat up and in one of the flashes of lights, I saw that my boots had been unlaced.
And I didn't do that.
I know that I didn't do that.
You know, the military teaches you how to take care of your feet.
And I would have taken my boots off or I would have had them unlaced up, but I would not have done that.
And then I took them off to put them back on and I found that my socks had been put on sideways.
And that confused me.
And then I noticed my friend is on his knees peeking out of a flap on the left side of the tent.
And I asked him, I said, Toby man, what is it?
Who's out there?
Is it Park Rangers?
And in one of these flashes of light, I could see, I guess it's the saline and the tears that reflect against the light, but I could see tracks of tears running down his face.
And that kind of scared me.
And I'm like, Toby Man, what's going on out there?
And I got to my knees and I pulled back the flap of my tent a couple inches and I looked out over the meadow.
And this thing that had been 3,000 feet above us when we went to bed had descended and was now about 30 feet over the meadow.
And the second thing that I noticed was that, and it was very intimidating because of its size.
The second thing I noticed, I saw about 15, maybe a dozen, I didn't count them, of what I took to be children.
Granted, there was a little bit of distance from where we camped to see them clearly, but I took them to be children.
And I asked my friend, I said, Toby, yeah, what are these kids doing out here in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the night?
So the craft was at 30 feet and enormous, as you say, intimidatingly enormous.
And on the ground, there were what you perceived to be children.
Yes.
Yes.
And I asked my friend what they were doing out there.
And he said, Terry, man, those ain't no little kids.
Don't you remember?
They took us and they hurt us.
They're not human beings.
Look at them again.
So Terry had more recall about this.
And the tears that you refer to had obviously more directly experienced it.
You had less at that stage recall than he had.
You know what?
I wasn't fully awake and didn't have my wits about me.
I was still kind of under that sedated feeling.
But as soon as he said those words, I snapped out of it and I went from confusion to fear.
And I was scared to death.
Because I looked out of the tent again and I saw that he was true, that these things were not human beings.
Their heads were disproportionately large.
In the flashes of light, I could see them fairly well.
They were gray in color.
They were three or four feet tall.
They were all grouped up in twos and threes, just kind of meandering around this meadow.
And they walked with a very distinctive gait.
They walked as if their legs, their knees were kind of hinged to go backward, maybe an inch or two with each step.
So it was very awkward looking the way they walked.
Now that we understand so much more about these things, or we think we do, do you believe that what you saw were what people would today describe as, quotes, the greys, which are a kind of, well, in a lot of people's estimation, a kind of almost like robot, you know, a biological robot?
That's very, very true.
That's exactly what I thought.
I came, by the end of this experience, I came to believe that they were not sentient in the way that you and I are, that they were some kind of combination of maybe biological, maybe quantum computing, nanotechnology, who knows, maybe some biological material, but they're not self-aware and sentient.
I call them in my book worker bees, and I think that's a better term.
You were looking at them.
Were they looking back at you?
Thankfully not.
We were a fair distance away, and we were both just terrified that we would cough or sneeze or make some kind of noise and they would come over to us.
But we had no way to know they were long done with us.
Now, in this COVID period, sorry to jump in, Terry, but in this COVID period, a lot of us, I'd go as far as saying most of us are having weird dreams.
I've been having them on a regular basis.
And sometimes they are indistinguishable until I wake up from 3D full-color reality.
But they've taken me to weird places.
I've met people that I've never seen before.
I've been on planes, on rivers.
I've been everywhere in these damn dreams.
Are you convinced at this number of decades that at that time you were not having some kind of dream?
Absolutely 100% convinced.
And there's several things that support that conclusion.
Number one, you know, was that we were in pain and I had the worst sunburn that I'd ever had in my life that neither peeled nor blistered and was all over my body.
It was on the soles of my feet, under my arms, everywhere.
We were both dehydrated and required three days of hospitalization.
We both have what they call flash burns.
We had burns to the cornea of our eye that are typical of what an arc welder would receive if they didn't wear that protective face mask.
Basically, it's a sunburn to the cornea of the eye, and it's very painful.
It feels like you have sand in your eyes.
Sure, I mean, if you watch welders at work, if you go to a shop repairing cars, whatever, you will see those people wearing protection for their eyes for the very reason that you talk about.
You needed hospitalization, both of you.
You had this sunburn effect and this damage to your eyes, which is alarming.
Did, presumably, the medics who looked after you then asked you what happened?
Yes, and I think it's relevant that we were both members of the hospital squadron.
And medical people, to their benefit, take care of their own, to their credit, take care of their own.
So we were well cared for.
And we knew the doctors.
We knew them all personally.
And, you know, there was an enlisted man-officer distinction, of course.
But on the medical level, on the medical side, it was not so much.
And the doctors were very candid and they were like, Terry, what did you do to yourself?
How did you burn yourself manager to get burnt like this?
And we had made, Soby and I had made a pact on our trip back that, because it was a six and a half hour drive.
We made a pact that we would not tell anyone that we saw a UFO the size of a medical building.
And if anyone would like to see, I drew a picture of that craft.
It's on terrylovelace.com.
And that picture, that image was drawn in 1977.
So it's contemporary with the event.
So it was fresh in your mind at that point.
Now, the medics, even though they were your people and they were looking after you properly, which is good, they would have wanted plenty of answers from you about how you acquired that, because that's not the kind of thing, what happened to you and the physical effects that you talk about are not the kinds of things that routinely happen to people who go out camping in the woods.
They just don't.
So how did you overcome the questions without admitting what happened?
Here's what happened.
This incident, our injuries, and everyone in the hospital squadron knew that we were on this camping trip.
It got the security police involved, specifically the OSI or the Office of Special Investigations, which is the investigative branch of the Air Force's security police.
They're the detective.
And the base commander, the hospital commander, and two guys in civilian clothes came into the treating room where I was being cared for.
And only the hospital commander, who I knew well, spoke.
And he said, Sergeant Lovell is sure to have no contact with Sergeant Tobias in any way, shape, or form.
Not in writing, not verbally, not by telephone, not through third parties.
You're not to give him anything.
He's not to give you anything.
You're not to visit, on and on and on.
And of course, in the military, you can't ask why, but you must have been wondering why.
I did wonder why.
Although, I must say that, well, this guy was my best friend.
We worked together for three years.
On our days off, we were both married, living on base and in family housing.
Our wives were the best of friends.
And suddenly, for some reason, I wanted nothing to do with this guy.
And I don't understand it.
couldn't process that at the time.
But something Absolutely, I do.
And I'm finding that that's not that uncommon.
There's a gentleman in the States named Robert Hastings, who was a 30-year investigator of these kind of occurrences, specifically on nuclear bases.
Yes, I've spoken with him.
Yes, what a gentleman.
We speak often.
And he told me that it's not uncommon at all for a group of people, friends, airmen, soldiers, to see a craft like this.
And then even best of friends, he calls it the band, the band breaks up.
You know, the people suddenly, the friendships dissolve, people move away, don't have contact with one another anymore.
Very common occurrence.
And he said it's extremely common that if you have an experience like this, that the OSI will get involved and the military will make sure that you're separated, that the two of you don't get together.
And I assume the reason for that is that two people make a much more credible story than a single person.
That's partly true.
But I mean, I'm speaking to you as somebody who had a police officer for a father.
If the two of you were together, then you may compare notes on your story and points at which your story differed.
You may agree to even or iron those pieces out.
So it sounds to me, although I don't know, that they were trying to make sure that your story stayed separate.
Maybe, or maybe there was another motive for keeping you apart.
I don't know.
It's odd, and it must have perturbed you.
You know, it's an assumption on my part.
And it perturbed me less than it should have.
You know, as I said, I didn't really want to see the guy.
I did stop by to see him.
They shipped him out to Japan at light speed.
I violated that order, and I stopped by to see him very briefly one day, about four weeks, five weeks maybe after the event.
And my wife was driving, and she let me off and she didn't like the idea.
She said, these OSI people scare me.
I'm like, I know, they scare me too.
But, you know, I thought it would bring me some sense of peace and help me to process and get all this together in my head to just see the guy, tell him goodbye, tell him I enjoyed working with him.
That was the object of the exercise.
I ran up to the door, door I'd been through a hundred times, knocked and announced myself, and I stepped in.
And Toby's wife walked by and sternly said, you're not supposed to be here.
And I said, I know, I understand.
I'm not here to confront anybody.
I just want to say goodbye to my friend.
And Toby heard me and came around the corner, and he was just a train wreck.
Now, I know we'd both been hurt, but whatever they did to me, they gave him a double measure because he was a wreck.
And he was always meticulous about his appearance.
Even though he was moving, I could cut him some slack for that.
But no, his appearance was just not him.
Do you get the impression that maybe, and you said that he appeared to have been aware of more of it than you were in that early stage, you know, when you were still camping and before you'd gone to the hospital?
Do you get the impression that maybe he'd fought them, he'd fought back?
And that could be that that's possible.
So as far as the OSI were concerned, did you get the feeling that maybe they knew what you'd been through?
Oh, I know they knew.
They knew.
They knew exactly what.
And I'll tell you how I knew.
On the second night of my hospitalization, I knew I was going to be going home the next day.
And two agents, special agents from the office from the OSI, followed a nurse into my hospital room about 9 p.m. when I was getting evening medication.
And the gentleman in charge said, if that's going to sedate Sergeant Lovelace, it's going to have to wait.
We have some questions to ask him.
And he was rude to her.
He said, shut the door on your way out.
And I thought, you know, that's kind of inappropriate.
You know, I have some experience with law enforcement, having been a prosecutor for some time.
So I kind of understand police interrogation techniques and intimidation is certainly one of them.
And that's, you know, if that was what he intended to do, he succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.
I mean, I was 22 years old at the time.
I'd never been in trouble of any kind and had never had any interaction with the police.
And these guys scared me to death.
What happened was when we left, we left everything there.
We left our tent, Toby's cooler, his backpack, everything.
We just wanted to get out of there with our lives.
And so although during the events, you say that you were quite calm for those events that You recalled, you know, in the beginning of our conversation, you said you knew there was something weird going on.
You had this feeling of expectation, and then something did happen.
But after it had happened, that was the point at which you panicked and said, Let's get the hell out of here.
I'm putting this politely.
And you left everything behind.
Well said.
That's exactly what we did.
And I think that may have been how the OSI, I don't know how they knew, but this OSI agent came and interrogated me and wanted to know why we had a campsite set up and if we had planned to return and what we were doing down there, were we growing marijuana and all kinds of things.
And then that's a strange question, isn't it?
Well, you know what?
It's an intimidating question because in 1977, had we been doing that, growing marijuana on federal land, that would have been a trip to Leavenworth.
That would have been a very bad outcome.
So that scared me.
Now, during the experience, though, I mean, I'm presuming you weren't, as we call it politely here in the United Kingdom, imbibing substances.
No, not at all.
Not at all.
And we were subject to random urine drops because we were working on a nuclear base.
You know, at best, we had four cans of beard packed for the entire trip.
Right.
So in those terms, you were absolutely clean.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And my point was I wanted to make was this OSI agent after his after his cohort left, it was just the two of us in the room.
And he was from a southern state, either Alabama or Mississippi.
He had this odd accent.
And he got down right next to my ear and he whispered, he said, son, I know and you know, you two knuckleheads stumbled onto something out there.
And I think you know what I'm talking about, don't you?
And I was stunned because I thought he knew, but I didn't know how to answer him, so I didn't answer him.
And he said, oh, I know you know what I'm talking about.
He said, I just want to know how many pictures you took of it.
And without thinking, I said, sir, I never took a single picture of it.
And he just smiled because that was an admission.
Then he knew we were both on the same page.
I knew he knew, he knew, I knew.
And I don't know how.
So how did you get out of all of that then?
Well, it ended up that they shipped Toby to Japan and he did not do well.
But as far as myself, I had my struggles too with nightmares and typical PTSD type things.
But they called me about nine weeks after the event.
I was interrogated by the OSI at the OSI headquarters under the influence of sodium amethol.
I was subject to hypnosis and was asked to relive and tell them what we saw.
And I resisted the hypnosis as well as I could by doing the same thing.
But if they give you enough of the truth drug, you can't resist that.
Yeah, I can't.
The sodium amethol is a fast-acting hypnotic, short-acting hypnotic.
And I had no control over that.
But that pulled up images in my mind.
In my mind's eye, I relived this thing.
I mean, I never had a clear linear memory of everything that happened, but I had flashes of memory from being inside that thing.
So up to that point, you had the before and the aftermath, but you didn't have the bit in the middle.
No.
So this gave you the bit in the middle.
What did you recall?
I recall standing in the middle of this craft in some open atrium and the inside of the craft, and I don't know, maybe they took us someplace else.
The inside of this craft looked much larger than the outside.
It was, while the outside may have been as large as a medical building, from the inside, it looked like a football stadium.
It was just enormous.
And I saw everything was white or stainless steel.
There were multiple levels, walkways.
The atrium was open and straight up.
But I was paralyzed.
I couldn't move anything except my eyes.
They had taken all of our clothing off, and I was holding my clothing in my hand in front of me, in my hands, in my arms.
But again, I couldn't move.
And I could barely see the far end of this craft and tiny figures down there.
And there were the tiny gray guys running around all over the place.
A lot of activity.
We were scared to death.
I could perceive that Toby was right next to me, and he was similarly situated.
And I recall clearly hearing a woman screaming.
You got the sense that there were other human beings on board.
There were other human beings on board.
There were two sets, actually.
There was a group of mixed men, women, and children, which shocked me, to our right that were kind of segregated away from us.
And they were lined up in columns and rows.
And I could not tell because I couldn't turn my head how deep that row went.
So it could have been as few as maybe 15 or 20 people, or it could have been 100.
So I don't know.
But they were all been stripped and were holding their clothing in their hands too.
And all their eyes were darting around because that's all they could move.
And they were all crying.
There were tears running down, men, women, and children, tears running down their faces.
I'd have been terrified.
It was absolutely terrifying.
And I wonder to this day what happened to those poor souls.
If they were returned and kicked out like we were, or did they take them somewhere else?
And there's a phenomenon in this country where people disappear under unusual circumstances from state and federal parks.
There is.
And as you say, there's a guy called David Paulitis who you may be aware of who investigates some of those things.
Yes, yes.
I know David, and we've talked about this.
And while he doesn't make that connection publicly, but there are those who speculate that that may be something to do with that phenomenon.
So there are other people there.
This is clearly a deeply traumatic thing that's happening to you.
What about Toby?
Toby had a great deal of difficulty.
He was sent to Japan because he said- We'll get into that.
But when you're on the craft, were you aware that Toby was with you?
Absolutely.
I could perceive he was by my side.
I don't know how I could perceive that because I couldn't really see him, but I knew he was there.
And they came and they got him at one point.
And I recall hearing him scream.
This was sometime after I heard the woman screaming.
And I heard my friend say, oh my God, no, no, no.
And then I recognized his voice and I heard him scream.
Did you think they're going to kill us?
I did.
I thought they would kill us.
Who seemed to be in charge, as far as you know?
I saw one being that was not a gray, that was pinkish white in complexion, but had features that were no cartilage for nose or ears, just nostrils and holes.
And he didn't have the big, black, exaggerated eyes like you see in the motion pictures.
They were smaller, like a pair of wraparound Ray-Ban sunglasses, maybe.
But they were absolutely black.
There was no white or iris pupil, nothing like that, just gloss black and sparse hair in his head.
And he was to my left.
I turned my head to look at him.
And this has been the subject of the nightmares for me for many years.
And this was the most frightful thing that happened to me on board this ship.
And that was we made eye contact.
And in that millisecond that we made eye contact, this guy was in my head.
And I don't know any other way to explain it.
Telepathic.
He was there.
It wasn't just telepathic conversation.
He knew me.
He knew my parents, my wife, my history, my hopes, my dreams, my secrets.
He knew everything about me in a millisecond.
And that was a frightening experience.
That was the biggest invasion of privacy you could ever experience.
And his eyes just reflected raw intellect.
I felt incredibly inferior intellectually, all across the board.
This thing was superior to me.
Did you get the chance to ask, even in thought, what are you doing with us?
No, when I had this encounter, it was just terror.
It was just terror.
I didn't have the composure to pull myself together and telepathically say, who are you?
Why are you here?
What are you doing to us?
I was in panic and didn't have the presence of mind to do that.
I wish I had.
I don't know if it got me anywhere.
Did anybody try to explain anything to you?
No, the only creature that ever spoke to me telepathically while aboard the ship that I can recall was when they came and got me and they took me into this exam room.
And I call it an exam room because their whole room had a medical vibe to it.
And there was an exam table in the middle and they took my clothing from me and elevated me and put me on this table.
I was still paralyzed.
And there was this being there that looked like an insect.
It looked like a praying mantis.
It had a triangular shaped head.
It had the large multi-lensed eyes and a multiple part mandible with all the odd moving parts.
And you know, I picture this thing being in a white lab coat.
And I don't think that that's a genuine memory.
I think that that's a screen memory.
You know, like I say, that it had a medical feel.
I didn't believe I was there to be tortured.
It had a medical feel to it.
And they did something to my lower back, but they didn't anesthetize me.
And it hurt.
And I couldn't open my mouth to scream, but through my clenched teeth, I'm screaming, trying to make as much noise as I can.
And I can't hear anything.
And that's frustrating me.
And I'm filling my lungs with air and screaming.
And I must have annoyed this thing because it turned its head toward me and made eye contact with just its left eye.
And I heard this thing clearly in my head say, why are you screaming?
Stop screaming.
You know we don't hurt you.
You know we take you back now.
Stop screaming.
And it reached over and it tapped me on the forehead and I was out again.
And that's the last memory I have for being inside the ship.
In the meantime, something else was happening to Toby.
Something else was happening somewhere else.
Yes.
They kicked us.
We ended up by my car.
And I remember thinking, I was only half conscious.
I remember thinking, well, they screwed up.
They should have put us back in the tent.
I no longer, no sooner than I thought that, they came and they dragged us and threw us back in the tent.
And that's the place that I woke up.
That was the 30 beings that you saw on the ground.
They were the ones who dragged you.
I don't know.
I don't know if it was them because we saw them re-enter the ship before the ship took off.
We watched it take off.
It didn't take off like a rocket either.
It just, you know, it lifted off more like a hot air balloon and just went up.
Strange question to be asked in your debrief, wasn't it?
Did you take pictures of them?
Because you were, I mean, this is 1977.
We didn't have cameras in our phones then.
We didn't even have phones.
We had Kodak cameras with 110 film, I seem to remember.
You wouldn't have been able to.
Well, I had a reputation within the hospital squadron as being an avid photographer.
And I, you know, knew everyone in the hospital knew my reason for going down there was to photograph wildlife.
And I had a nice Yashika camera and I had a dark room in my house set up to develop black and white prints.
And the hospital commander had joked with me and said, bring me back some Ansel Adam quality prints.
Ansel Adam being a famous black and white photographer from earlier in the 20th century.
And I said, yes, sir, I will.
But you know, the idea of taking a picture of this thing never crossed our mind.
And that was sense to me.
Well, look, I think if it would be me, I'd be so terrified.
Pictures would be the last thing on my mind.
And I know people say, Did you grab something to bring back?
and all of those things.
If you're going through abject terror and you are incapacitated, I don't know what the hell you do do.
But the guy who asked you, did you take pictures?
suggests to me that they're either trying to make sure that you did or make sure that you didn't.
You know, they want to be sure that there's, on one level, they would want to be sure maybe that there's no record of this.
Or if they're actively interested in whatever this is, then they'd be interested in knowing that you had got some pictures.
You know, there are two ways to play that, aren't there?
Well, that's spot on.
I think that their fear was that I took a 36 exposure roll of film of this thing.
And I, you know, God, I wish I had.
You know, I'd have sold it to the National Inquirer or the Sun or someplace and, you know, made a million dollars.
But that wasn't the case at all.
Why hasn't Toby talked about this?
Toby had a very hard time with alcohol, and he was not a drinker.
I knew him very well, and we socialized, played cards together, barbecued together.
Our wives were friends, and I never knew him to drink more than a single beer on an occasion.
I certainly never saw the man drunk.
But when I stopped by his house to say goodbye that day, he looked up at me and I could smell liquor on his breath.
And that was very out of character for him.
And I said, you know, to him, that was the last time I saw him.
And I wanted to wish him well, say goodbye.
And he looked up at me and he said, it happened, didn't it, Terry?
And I said, yes, my brother, it really happened.
And you're not losing your mind.
And he said, yeah, but why us?
And that question just went through me.
I felt panic and I said, man, I don't have a clue.
And I turned and I ran out of the house.
And I didn't, that didn't, that interaction with him that I hoped would bring me some measure of peace had just the opposite effect.
It was, it just did not feel good at all.
So he goes off to Japan and has issues to deal with.
Do you never see him again?
I never see him again.
We see his wife again.
They separated and eventually divorced.
His wife and her new husband came to visit us when we were in Michigan.
And she told us the story that Toby had fallen into alcoholism.
And he was, and I understood in a way, as I said, because I had my struggles too, specifically with sleep.
And, you know, when you sleep, you're vulnerable.
That's when the monsters can come in.
That's when you're unconscious.
So you both had issues in different ways.
Did you not, because saying goodbye to him and him going away like that, because it left more questions than it answered, did you try and contact him?
Did you try and reach him?
I did.
I did.
I had his father's phone number.
And in the early 80s, I called him or called his dad's phone number in Flint, Michigan, and spoke with the old man on the phone.
And I told him, I said, you know, I'm trying to get a hold of my friend Toby.
We were in the military together.
I'm Terry Lovelace.
And he knew immediately who I was and says, well, Toby doesn't stay here, but I see him now and then.
And I had the impression that perhaps he was homeless.
And I said, would you please ask my friend to call you if I leave a number with you?
And he said, certainly.
He very politely wrote down my number.
And I never heard from Toby.
And six months later, it was holiday season.
And I called him back and the number had been disconnected.
Well, we found out that Toby had a hard time with employment and with housing stability.
And his father had passed away and the family gave Toby the home to live in.
And it was owned, free, and clear, but he lost it for non-payment of taxes.
So as far as you're aware, as you're around now, is he around now?
No, you know, and I explained that in my second book.
What happened was in the early 80s, I was involved in a case involving the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and I had a friend who was an FBI agent.
And I asked him, I said, could you please help me find my friend?
And he said, yeah, sure.
He says, I can't open an investigation, obviously, but as a favor to a friend, I'll see if I can find a guy.
And he told me to write down everything that I knew about Toby, to give him a picture if I had one.
And I gave him one and wrote down everything on about three sheets of paper because I knew the guy very well.
You get to know someone well three years of working with them on the night shift.
And we would get together at the bar for a beer at the end of the week on Friday nights.
And he called me up a couple weeks later and said, meet me at the bar after work.
I got news about your buddy.
And I said, oh, sure.
Yeah, great.
Thank you very much.
I will.
So I got there and he was late, which was not typical.
And I could tell when he walked in the door, he didn't have good news.
And he walked over to me and he sat down and he says, Terry, I have some very bad news for you.
He says, I'm afraid your friend is dead.
And I said, dead?
How can he be dead?
He's a young man.
And he says, I know, Terry.
But he said, it was a crossover automobile accident from opposing lanes.
It was a head-on collision and he was killed instantly.
And he said, I'm very sorry.
But you know, Terry, what you've been around the block long enough to know that these things happen and you have to process it and move on with your life.
And I accepted that.
And I could have easily picked up the phone and called the Michigan State Police and verified those facts.
And I didn't do it.
I wish I had because what he told me was not true.
Really?
Really, really.
So how did you discover what he told you was not true?
In 2017, when I was writing the book, I wanted to find out where he was buried.
And I wanted to make plans to go to Michigan to be by his grave and tell him, you know, that I'm writing this book about you and I'm trying to portray you in a good light.
I just felt like I owed him that visit.
I don't know.
So I looked for the obituary.
I found his obituary And he was alive until September 4th, 2017, or pardon me, 2007.
So 10 years.
He'd been only gone for 10 years.
So we had all that time that we could have spent together, put our heads together, and maybe come to grips with this.
And we were denied that possibility.
I think somewhere in the federal level, there's probably a file folder that says that these two guys aren't supposed to be together.
I really believe that.
I can't think of any other explanation.
But of course, he's the only other person who could corroborate your story.
Did you get any idea?
Have you tried to find out whether he told anybody else the story?
Well, I don't know how to do that.
We can't find his wife.
She remarried, has a different last name.
We knew that she was in the Los Angeles area, and we looked for her.
But, I mean, short of publishing a notice in the LA Times or something, I don't know how to go about finding her.
I guess I could hire a private investigator or something.
I didn't do that.
You know, even people listening to this may find some of what you said unlikely sounding, but we've got to remember that both of us remember the era when there was no Facebook, there was no LinkedIn.
Nobody was on the internet because it didn't exist.
There was a computer network that probably NASA could use, but we couldn't use it.
People didn't have phones in their pockets.
If you wanted to make a phone call, then, you know, just like those old American TV programs like The Fugitive, you find a phone booth.
So this is a different world we're talking about.
And that's how people lost touch with each other in ways that they mightn't today.
But I still think it's probably worth, if you were thinking of doing that, a little bit of investigation in case, you know, in some deserted diner somewhere or somewhere in a moment of unguarded, you know, in a moment of unguarded relaxation, perhaps he told the story.
And then you have somebody else there who knows about what you're talking about.
I mean, it's a hell of a story.
That would be gold.
I would love nothing better.
And I did do a minimal amount of investigation, but I had no luck.
You know, I just don't have enough information.
And of course, you have a life to continue with.
Let's not make light of that because you had to get on with your life after that.
And your biography says you had a successful life after that.
So you didn't talk about this for many years.
What happened in those intervening years then?
My wife and I discussed it between ourselves.
We never shared it.
We've been married 47 years.
We have two adult children, 140 and 135.
And we never shared this story with them.
They knew that dad would have screaming nightmares once or twice, three times a year maybe, but they never knew the reason.
I never shared it with a colleague in the legal community and never would because I knew it would be potentially the end of my career.
So it was a secret between my wife and I. And I didn't share it with our children until I was ready to publish the book.
And I sat down with them and I gave them a copy of the book and I said, look, this is the true chapter of my life.
But we know that a lot of baggage goes with all stories of this kind.
It does.
Why did you decide to, after the years and years of anguish and try to come to terms with it, why did you decide to speak out and not only speak out, but publish a book?
Oh, I'm glad you asked that because I never had any intention of doing this, none whatsoever.
I was going to take this to my grave and as a secret.
And in 2012, I had an x-ray of my leg that revealed that I had two foreign objects in my leg.
And the doctor examined me and there was no scar tissue.
And he said, for an object of the size, to compromise the integrity of the skin and bury this thing that deep in your leg, there should be a scar here.
It's a foreign object.
There should be some sign of even attempted rejection, some inflammation, something, but there is no sign of that.
Those x-rays are on my website at terrylovelace.com.
And the objects presumably are still there.
They are.
Do you think they're alien implants?
I do.
And that was the slap in the face.
That's what brought me around to thinking that, well, number one, it validated and I thought my memories that these things put their hands on me, you know, and it brought it to the forefront of my memory.
And I just, I was having trouble dealing with it.
And I made the decision, the best way to deal with it is confront it and move on with it.
And I was reticent to write the book because I knew I'd lose friends in the legal community, which I did.
But you know, I've made so many more friends and there's a, I didn't know that there was such a vibrant UFO culture or UFO community in the world.
A collection, so many people that have had experiences like mine.
I'm not unique in any way.
And indeed, there was a man who specialized in the removal of alien implants.
There was.
Unfortunately, he was deceased as of 2014.
Yes.
So I wasn't able to contact him.
I've been to, I've had numerous x-rays, been to numerous doctors.
Unfortunately, I've had three heart attacks, and I have coronary artery disease and a couple other health issues involving my heart.
To have them surgically removed would require clearance by a cardiologist.
That's the standard of care in this country.
And it's a risk-benefit analysis.
Is the risk of anesthesia and the risk of infection worth removing objects that have been in the body for years and are apparently benign?
And the answer is no.
Well, they would certainly want to leave them there, and I quite understand why.
Do you have a sneaking feeling that something has been tracking you then for all of these years?
Yes, I do.
I feel like a lion on a Serengeti plane.
Absolutely.
Yes, I do.
What are you going to do about this now, Terry?
I'm going to live with it.
I mean, I'm going to live with it.
I'm going to move forward, but I want to continue to speak and talk to people.
You know, I put a little email address in the epilogue of my first book, Incident at Devil's Den, and I said, I'm not a therapist or a doctor, but if you'd like to share your experience, I'd love to talk to you.
I've got over 1,500 emails from people.
And a lot of them are very heartfelt, you know, where they say, I've never shared this with another human being, but I'm going to share it with you.
Or they read my book and it and it jogged their memory of something that happened to them in their childhood.
So, you know, my story at some level resonates with people.
And I think that's a good thing.
I want people to know that this stuff is real and to get over the stigma, you know, the whole tin foil hat thing and accept this for what it is.
And I think we're close to that.
I know you've interviewed Dr. Avi from Harvard University.
You mean Avi Loeb, yeah.
Yes.
Many times.
And indeed, the man you referred to, Re the Alien Implants.
I also spoke with him, Roger Lear.
Roger Lear, yes.
So there is a whole support network there for you.
You're coming to it rather late, but at least you're coming to it, and you've had people get in touch with you.
Did anybody say anything that might have helped to verify your story?
Anybody say, well, I was in that same area and, you know, this thing was huge and I saw it?
Nothing that I could tie to a geographic location, although there have been some very mysterious disappearances of people from that park.
And I did discover that through investigation.
There's a famous 1946 case.
I don't know if we have time to go into, but I'd be happy to tell you briefly about a seven-year-old girl.
Her family, after World War II, there was a camping craze in this country, pull behind campers.
And they were going from Pittsburgh to El Paso, Texas, and spent the night at Devil's Den State Park.
And the following morning, after their first evening there, mother was putting breakfast on the table and her two younger brothers are there, but Catherine has disappeared.
Her name was Catherine Van Alst.
And she was missing.
They got park rangers involved.
They eventually got 2,500 people involved, including volunteers from the University of Michigan to hunt for her.
It was to be a seven-day search, shifting from a rescue to a recovery on the seventh day.
And they didn't find her until that seventh day.
A young man named Rodney, pardon me, I can't remember.
Sorry, it's okay.
We can look for the name later, but somebody, anyway.
Yes, Porter Chadwick found he was on top of a precipice of a limestone cliff some miles away from the campsite that required a zigzag trail to get up to because of the steep incline.
This little girl was in flip-flops, shower sandals, and a bathing suit.
And he was on the top of this precipice and he called out for her and she stepped out from a limestone overcropping.
And he just ran over and picked her up and said, oh my God, are you okay?
Where have you been?
Aside from a few bug bites, this is interesting.
Aside from a few bug bites, she was fine.
The mother said that her hair smelled clean.
She hadn't lost an ounce of weight.
She was well hydrated, despite the fact there was no potable water anywhere.
And her memory, she said, well, I just woke up up there this morning and I just thought I'd stay there until you came to get me.
Has no memory of the previous six days whatsoever.
So your story is kind of similar, but you didn't have a period of six days.
You had a period, you think, of hours.
Yes.
There had been people that have gone missing, and they found partial remains for very much.
David Polites, the fourth book in his Missing 411 series, is called The Devil is in the Details.
And in it, he talks about the oddities from Devil's Den State Park.
And indeed, many locations.
There are things that people cannot explain.
Well, you know, there's still then a great big gap in your life, isn't there?
And, you know, I haven't asked your age.
I can assume what it might be.
Are you comfortable as you can be knowing that you're probably going to have to go for the rest of your life not quite knowing what it was?
You know, I know.
I know that they were not human beings.
I don't know if they're interdimensional.
I don't know if they travel here from some distant galaxy.
It really doesn't matter to me.
What matters is that I know that we're not the top of the food chain, that, you know, there are entities out there that like the guy that I locked eyes with.
You know, I felt humble.
I felt inferior in so many ways.
This thing was 500 mugs up the evolutionary ladder from human beings.
He was just more developed than we were.
And, you know, my attitude is softened.
I don't think that I don't hold any malice against them or any ill feelings anymore.
Because I think that the injuries that we suffered were just collateral damage.
I don't think they were intentional.
The only thing that haunts my sleep is those poor people that were on board.
I just hope that they were returned somehow.
And indeed, from a research point of view, it would be interesting to hear from them.
Maybe one of the UFO alien contact groups knows about that.
I don't know.
But that would be another area.
Look, how do you cope with all the stuff that goes with putting yourself out there like this?
You know, I've looked at, just while we were talking now, I called up one forum and, you know, there were words like, hoaxer, and then somebody suggesting that you may have got caught up in some kind of government project.
You know, everybody takes a view.
How do you cope with that?
Well, you know, I cope with that by acceptance.
And I'll be candid with you.
I mean, I don't need to peddle books to make a living.
I mean, I had a very good career and I retired very comfortably.
So I'm not doing this for financial gain.
I give the money that I do make what pittance that it does pay, I just give to my grandchildren.
I'm in this because I know that this stuff is real.
And I think that humanity needs to know that it's real and accept that.
And, You know, I think that maybe if we all can raise our consciousness somehow, you know, there was a December 8th story in the Jerusalem Post about Dr. Haim Ashd, who came out, he was 30 years an Israeli general and head of their space defense force, and then university professor thereafter.
Very well respected.
I have friends in Tel Aviv who tell me he's like the Buzz Aldrin in the United States.
He's the book.
He's very well known, and he's the man who said that there's already a base on Mars, and we've had one since the 70s.
Yes.
And he made the comment that, you know, humanity is not quite ready yet for disclosure because, and these are five curious words from the Jerusalem Post article.
He said, until mankind understands the nature of space and spaceships.
And I scratch my head at that quote, and I wonder what exactly that means, because I don't know.
Because you're never, well, unless there's some great revelation and we get disclosure, which I hope we do, you're not going to know where that thing came from, whether that came from here, whether that came from a zillion, billion miles away, that there's going to be that gap there.
Are you going to do any more research on this, or are you content with simply telling the story so as many people get to hear it and understand it as possible?
Well, I have turned into kind of an inadvertent researcher in that so many people have emailed me and told me their stories that what I did was I, using an Excel spreadsheet, I tried to catalog them and look for commonalities in them.
And I've got about 400 stories of that 1,500 that are just very, very credible stories.
And there's a whole other book in that.
There is, and that's part of the second book.
And the second book that I wrote, Devil's Done the Reckoning, I took 30 of those most believable, most credible stories and put them in the book.
But people agreed to share them with the public.
Sometimes anonymously, sometimes the names are true.
But the stories are all absolutely factual.
They're not.
If you're happy to do that, I would love to speak with you again, and maybe we can go through some of those other stories that have commonalities, as you say, with your own story, and we can take it from there.
I would love to do that.
Howard, that would be a thrill.
That would be a pleasure.
It's a heck of a story, Terry.
Thank you for sharing it with me.
It is, yes, an abduction on one level, but it is a story that's encompassing on so many levels.
And I'm going to have to sit down and have another cup of coffee and just a little sit-down in the lockdown silence and get my head around it.
So how are you doing with the nightmares that you've had for years?
Since we've been in this COVID situation, lockdown, a lot of people are having dreams.
I have weird three-dimensional dreams.
Last night I had one.
I'm having them all the time.
Are your dreams different now?
Yes, they are.
It's really odd you say that.
And that's been since the lockdown.
I don't know if that's a side effect of the isolation or what, but I have vivid colored dreams that are in some ways lucid.
You know, I can't control all aspects of the dream, but I'm often in a situation of I can say yes or no, black or white, vanilla or chocolate.
I have some kind of influence over the direction of the dream in a small way.
But that's a little bit.
Does anything take you back to your experience?
I have maybe a half a dozen dreams that involve memories from the ship and from seeing the ship.
And those are always the same.
They always play out the same.
I can't wake myself up until they run their course.
I always wake up with a start and I have to turn on the lights.
I have to get up and do something.
But you know what?
Even as unpleasant as those are, they're familiar and I can deal with them.
It must give you a warm feeling just finally to know that because you've written the books and people have got in touch with you, there is a feeling that you're not alone.
There is.
There is great comfort in that.
And I'm not unique.
And, you know, I hate it that other people have had to experience what I've experienced.
And some have had good experiences.
They haven't all been negative.
And in retrospect, I'm not sure mine is as negative as what I perceive it to be.
There is one thing I didn't pick up, and it's a strange point in the conversation to be picking it up right at the end here, but it's a loose end, so let's tie it up.
You mentioned that you had experiences as a child, which indeed many people who have experiences of this kind report.
They say that they had things happen to them when they were kids.
Just briefly, what happened to you?
From the ages of four to nine, I would intermittently have, and it's in the first chapter of my book, my first book, I would have visitors in my room that I described as monkey men.
They look like circus, little circus monkeys.
And they would, they would, there were always four of them.
They'd circle around my bed and they would ask me to go with them.
They didn't just abduct me.
They would ask me to go with them.
And sometimes I did go with them voluntarily.
And sometimes I would scream my head off and wake up the entire household.
And, you know, I've had letters from people who say, you know, well, I had a cousin at the same time that I'm going through this.
I had a cousin the same age, a couple hundred miles away, who was seeing little clowns in his bedroom and having the same kind of experience.
And, you know, of these 1,500 people who contacted me, there's probably 100 people who've seen, between those ages of four and eight or so, seen owls and raccoons and glowing orbs and little gray men and clowns and monkeys and all manner of things.
And I think that these things have the ability to appear in a form most benign to a child.
Yep, and I've had that thought too.
Those who experience these things and those who actually perpetrate them maybe have an ability to project to you, if you're young especially, something that is just about palatable to you.
But who knows?
Did you ever see any UFOs, anything like that when you were a kid?
Oh my God, yes, I did.
I did.
And I wrote about that in the book.
I saw the first one that I can recall when I was eight years old in my backyard in St. Louis, Missouri.
The second one I saw was at age 11 outside my bedroom window, second-story bedroom window in the middle of the night.
And then for 11 years, I had no experiences of any kind that I can remember whatsoever.
And then 11 years later, I was 22 years old, and that's when I had the incident in 1977.
But nothing since.
Oh, I've taken pictures of UFOs.
I had a nice collection of photographs of UFOs I've taken with my camera.
I've seen UFOs intermittently throughout my life.
And my wife has been by my side, and I see a silver saucer just gliding across the sky, and I'll say, look at that, and she can't see it.
But of course, now I can take a picture of it with my phone and say, well, you see it now, and clearly she can.
So you've got those pictures?
I do.
I'd be happy to email you some if you'd like.
Well, I'd be keen to see them.
Terry, I think this is a conversation that needs to be continued.
Thank you for sharing it with me, like I say.
And if people want to visit that website of yours, what is it again?
It's terrylovelace.com.
Terry, thank you for your time.
And, you know, I'm sure it's still cold there at the moment, so stay warm.
I will.
Thank you for watching.
And all that wood that you've got to burn.
Thank you, Terry.
Take care.
Well, in the pantheon of amazing stories that we've told on the unexplained, that has to be up there with them.
Terry Lovelace, your thoughts about him?
Gratefully received?
Thank you very much for being part of my show.
Thank you for the emails and for telling me that you are there.
You're helping to see me through just as much as many of you are telling me that I'm helping to see you through.
So I guess it's a mutual support society we've got going here for this last crazy year that we've been through.
More great guests in the pipeline here at The Unexplained.
So until next we meet, my name is Howard Hughes.
This has been The Unexplained Online.
And please, whatever you do, stay safe, stay calm, and above all, please stay in touch.
Thank you very much.
Take care.
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