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Jan. 24, 2020 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes
01:09:38
Edition 428 - Anthony Peake

A catchup with British writer, speaker and thinker Anthony Peake - author of "The Hidden Universe"...

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Across the UK, across continental North America and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes and this is The Unexplained.
Being recorded today on a day that is freezing cold.
The weather's changed.
We've had weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks, probably a couple of months of cloud and rain here in the UK, and it's suddenly turned into brightness and frosty cold conditions, very cold nights.
At least it's good to get some clearer air here.
My thoughts with you.
If you're in Canada, where you've had very, very deep snow recently, I know some of the time-lapse videos that I've seen on YouTube are astonishing when you look at them.
24 hours and literally the height of a garage door being filled in with snow is one of the videos that I saw.
And I'm very pleased to see that Australia now seems to be turning the corner in the fire crisis with the appearance of rain.
But now, of course, the clear-up begins, which will be an enormous and heart-rending process, I would have thought.
Thank you very much for all of your emails that continue to come in and for your support for this show.
If you've given a donation recently, my thanks to you for doing that.
If you haven't, please do consider it.
You can go to my website, theunexplained.tv, follow the link from there, and you can leave a PayPal donation for the show, which will allow it to continue into the future.
And the same if you want to go to my website, theunexplained.tv, follow the link from there and send me a message.
If you have a problem receiving the show, there is also a link that allows you to connect with Adam, my webmaster from Creative Hotspot in Liverpool, who can help to troubleshoot any problems that you might have.
So like I say, thank you very much for getting in touch.
When you do get in touch, please remember to tell me who you are, where you are, and how you use the show.
And if you have a guest suggestion, thoughts about the show, whatever it may be, one recent emailer made a comment about the audio quality of a guest that I had and said basically it was like listening to somebody talking into a bucket.
You've got to remember, of course, that, well, a few things, that the people that we speak to are not professional sound engineers.
I think if you know me well enough, you know I'm constantly experimenting with microphones and sound, always trying to do it differently.
But the people that I speak with, a lot of the time it's on a digital service like Skype, and sometimes they don't have ideal, I think the thing that does it some of the time is the acoustic conditions of the space that they're in.
And of course, in many situations, it's not possible to change that.
So in this particular instance, I think for me, it was a question of we either did the conversation like that or we didn't do the conversation.
And since the guest was a fascinating guest, I decided to continue with the conversation because I could perfectly clearly understand what he was saying.
But I think, you know, you've got to remember that sometimes the people we speak to, number one, they're not sound engineers.
And number two, their acoustic space may not be, you know, perfectly damped as in a recording studio.
I mean, look, the space where I do these podcasts in, it would be frowned upon by recording studio engineers because it is not acoustically ideal.
I can't afford to make it so.
So I have to use microphones and techniques that hopefully overcome that.
But what I always do with guests is, you know, if their audio is not perfect, I always suggest that they get themselves a good USB microphone and take it from there and just think about where they're, and they are broadcasting, where they're broadcasting from.
So I hope that maybe answers that point.
Now, the guest on this edition of the show is a return visit from Anthony Peake, internationally famous guest now.
I spoke with Anthony at the very beginning of his career.
They call him these days the Einstein of consciousness.
And indeed, it is a subject that Anthony fascinatingly probes many times in his writings and works.
Anthony now, of course, traveling around the world speaking.
He's got a new book out called The Hidden Universe, which poses some questions that I think will be interesting for us here on The Unexplained.
Throughout human history, people have reported encounters with non-human entities like fairies and angels and ETs.
Are non-human entities, the question is posed by the book, mind-created?
Are they manifestations maybe of a collective mind?
Can we will them into being?
Fascinating questions that sometimes the people who I've spoken with who say that they've had such encounters can't explain because they're on the receiving end of them.
And the encounters need somebody else outside to do a bit of thinking about it, which Anthony Peake has done.
So he is the guest on this edition of The Unexplained.
Remember, if you want to contact me, the website address is theunexplained.tv.
That's where you'll find all the latest shows, everything about this show.
And it also gives you portals to either donate to the show or to communicate directly with me.
I hope you're getting by as we stare into the barrel of February 2020.
20.
I still can't get used to saying 2020.
It's just bizarre.
I mean, the thing used to be, didn't it?
That you had to try and remember to write it on checks.
But we don't write checks that much these days.
I think I write two a year to people who insist on receiving checks.
2020.
All right.
Let's get to another part of the area in which I reside and speak with Anthony Peake about his new work.
Anthony, thank you very much for returning to the unexplained.
I'm delighted to be on again.
I think it's the third time now, isn't it?
Possibly even the fourth.
I think it might be if you take the radio show into account.
It almost sounds like a courtroom, doesn't it?
We'll take the radio show into account.
I think it might be four, Tony.
And I've seen you change and I've seen you get more famous and more popular over those years.
How does that feel?
It's quite a peculiar sensation, actually, because when I first started writing, I genuinely believed the only people that would buy my books would be my immediate family and friends.
And now I'm sitting here with book sales of over 100,000 worldwide, and my books are now into every major European language and quite a few minor ones as well.
So it's quite a strange feeling.
But for me, my writing is to get ideas across rather than fame or fortune, because you know these days as a writer, you're not going to get fortune, but you might get a comparative amount of fame.
And fame, I've known many people who've had it.
It's transitory.
It's a nice thing for them to have at the time, but it's not something that lasts.
So I think you're right in pursuing that.
And I think the reason, and just from my point of view, but I'd be keen to hear your view on this, I think the reason why you have caught light in the public imagination is that you're asking the questions that people, when they read all of these books about these alternative quotes, topics, those questions are fired off in their brains, but they're not actually answered by the books.
And you tackle, as indeed you tackle in the new book, some of those questions.
Do you think that my summation there is fair?
I think that's a very accurate summation.
It's always been my philosophy.
I base very much my writing style on the great Colin Wilson, who was hugely influential on me many years ago.
And in fact, Colin was extremely helpful in the early stages of my writing career.
But for me, it always, as a reader of esoteric subjects for so many years, since the mid-1960s, it has always frustrated me that people, you get what I call the gee whiz books, whereby they define, they decide and they tell you about UFO encounters or they tell you about alien abductions or about ghost encounters or deja vu encounters, but then nobody ever attempts to explain it.
I mean, for instance, for many years, I was a member of the International Association of Near-Death Studies.
And you go onto their work and all the time, they're describing the NDE experiences from the point of view of the experiencer, but nobody's sitting back and saying, well, why do these phenomena take place?
And that's really what I try and do.
And I think that was very, very accurate summation of what my philosophy is.
So thank you for that.
That's actually quite impressive.
That's good.
And sometimes I suspect that in some of these works, the person who's writing about the near-death experiences or whatever they're writing about, they're so caught in recounting the tales and putting the information out there that they forget the most basic question of journalism.
And I promise my listener that we will get to the content of Tony's book very quickly.
But they forget the most basic question, which is, what does this mean?
You know, if you look at the news today, you can subject most of the stories that you see in the news to the what does this mean test.
And when I was training to be a journalist at a radio station that you will know called Radio City, I had a news editor who was a stickler for what does, he'd hold up a piece of copy that you'd written on paper in those days, like that, and he'd say, what does this mean?
And you'd have to explain to him.
And I get the feeling that some people who write and some people who put their thoughts out there, the thoughts may well be very valid, but they forget the question is, what does it mean?
So that's basically, I think, what you've been trying to do.
It is indeed.
And in many ways, one of the things I've discovered as well is that I ask the questions after the questions.
So I don't take any experiences on face value.
I mean, the amount of times that I've researched, say, research into outer body experiences, where people make these incredible claims and they say that, you know, this happened to me and there were witnesses and everything else.
Whenever I start to really dig, the evidence is nowhere near as strong as people believe.
There are so many cases of, for instance, near-death experiences where people believe genuinely what they're told in the books.
But if you go back to the source material, that's not in fact what happened at all.
And that's my philosophy as well.
I'm very much a follower of a guy called Marcelo Trui, who was an Italian skeptic.
And he said, people actually say it was Carl Sagan that said this, but it was actually Marcello Trui, where he turned around and he said, extraordinary claims need extraordinary proofs.
And that's always been my philosophy.
I go back to the science and anybody who reads my books will know this, that I will refer back to academic papers and allow my readers to come to their own conclusions.
I only guide them and I point them in the right direction.
So my philosophy is always don't look at my finger, look at what I'm pointing at.
I think, well, that is a brilliant way of putting it.
Sometimes people will start with a premise, and that premise will overshadow everything that they do.
And they have to, as we say here, they have to bust a gut.
They have to give everything that they have to make sure that they fulfill that premise, which gets away from that thing called the truth, I think.
But this is a whole side debate that we can have at great length.
The Hidden Universe, an investigation into non-human intelligences.
The title alone grabs you.
What was it that made you want to write a book on that subject?
I think it's because all of my writing over my previous 10 books have all touched upon consciousness.
Consciousness as it's perceived subjectively.
And consciousness and how it's generated in the brain is something that's always fascinated me.
Is consciousness an epiphenomenon, a brain phenomenon, or brain chemistry, brain acting with electricity, or is there something more?
But over the years, I've spoken with so many people from mediums to people who have had out-of-body experiences to people who've had alien encounters.
And it astounds me, it intrigued me, the amount of times that these entities that people see or perceive seem to be independent of them.
They don't seem to be just a creation of their subconscious.
They seem to have motivations.
And I thought, you know, there really is a need for a book to look into what these entities are and what they signify.
And indeed, if they exist out there, where are they coming from?
And what is their background?
And over the years, many years ago, I read an amazing book called Passport to Megonia by a French ufologist called Jacques Valli.
And this book really intrigued me because Valli took a very different approach to the UFO abduction phenomenon and argued that the aliens in Ray's commas are not aliens in the sense that they are extraterrestrials.
They are very much intraterrestrials in the sense that they are somehow, in some bizarre way, part of us, part of our psychology, part of the framework of this planet or this indeed this universe.
But they are evidence of multi-dimensional beings that exist in a far more complex and far more intriguing way than just aliens that are traveling in spaceships across interstellar space.
And this is the approach I've taken in this book because I've thought, now I need to really look into this, you know, with a level of forensic analysis, which I normally do in my books, to say, well, let's look at it objectively.
And what is the evidence?
And what is the science to support the idea that these entities not only exist but are independent intelligences?
So the premise is that they, if they're aliens or whatever they may be, these manifestations are there to be seen.
If you have the ability, if you have the tools, if you have the wherewithal to see them, they are there, they exist.
And all you have to do is to be able to decode whatever you might have to decode to see them.
But from what you said, though, Tony, that sounds like all of the phenomena, be they fairies, be they ETs, be they whatever they might be, they're all a part of the same thing.
Is that what you're getting to?
Very much so.
I mean, Jacques Valley and his concept of Magonia, the reason he called it passport to Magonia was that I think in around about the 11th century, there was an incident that I think took place somewhere in France whereby alien entities came down and started talking to the locals.
And when they were asked where they came from, they said they came from a place called Magonia.
And this then became this kind of idea of this reality behind this reality, which I call the Pleroma.
I call it the Pleroma because this is from ancient Gnostic beliefs.
It's the idea that there is the reality that is given to us by our senses, the phenomenal world that exists, seemingly exists outside of ourselves that our senses recreate within our brains for us in a kind of in a vision.
That's called a conoma.
But I argue in the book that we have to take one step back here and realize that what we consider to be external reality is indeed not external reality.
It's not consensual reality.
What it is, is our brain's interpretation of electromagnetic energy and sound and everything else.
And it's recreated in the brain.
And an external model of reality is created in the brain.
Now, again, there'll be people out there that will say, utter nonsense, what is out there is real.
Interesting wake-up call here.
Modern consciousness researchers and perception researchers used to call that position naive realism because it is naive to believe that there is a one-to-one relationship with what is external to us.
Yes, I think a lot of people would hold with the idea that we all perceive what is in front of us in our own way.
I mean, I'm looking at a little preamplifier box for my microphone here.
It's got a red cover.
And the way, I'm sure, the way that I perceive that color red may well be different from the way that you would perceive that color red.
It's my brain interpreting what I'm looking at.
Oh, very much so.
I mean, perception scientists, there's a technical term for this.
It's called qualia.
And qualia is how the brain processes things.
And as you rightly say, you know, the colour red doesn't actually exist anywhere.
And in one of my earlier books, I discussed this using the analogy of the famous movie Schindler's List, which you recall Schindler's List, the whole movie is in black and white with the exception of one sequence of a little girl in a red dress.
And we won't go into detail of just how that red dress is used later to really get across the horror of the Holocaust.
But one of the most moving sequences, I think, that has ever been put on celluloid.
Totally.
So powerful.
But my issue was, imagine you and I are watching that video one evening.
And we start to think, well, where exactly is the color red in that whole scenario?
And if you start to break it down, you think, well, you know, was it in the original film?
Was it on the original dress the little girl was wearing?
Is it in the video?
Is it in the television screen?
Is it in your eye?
And of course, you discover it exists nowhere because all red is, is a certain vibration state of the electromagnetic spectrum that our brain chooses to interpret as a particular color.
But of course, you can never define a color.
You can only ever define a color because it looks a bit like orange.
But you're only defining it by saying something else that's similar.
And the same comes with sound, the same comes with a lot of things.
And to me, the argument is that really there are other realities.
I call this worldview electromagnetic chauvinism.
The idea that we believe that what we see is actually out there because this is what we see.
But of course, you know, you look at photographs of what we believe that a bumblebee sees when they look at a flower or the world of a bat.
And there was a very famous article written many years ago by a philosopher, I think it was John Searle, which was the idea of what it is like to be a bat, because technically bats see sound.
Then we move into people who have things like synesthesia, you know, like Scryabin, the Russian composer.
He saw music.
He saw the sounds.
You know, so clearly there are different ways of perceiving external reality and that external reality doesn't have consistency.
We know if we get drunk, we know if we take entheogens or psychedelics, our whole perception world changes.
Well, those who go to South America and they try out things like ayahuasca, where, you know, you can try that thing out.
They say that that somehow, and it's not something that I would want to try, but, you know, they say that that somehow turns a key and unlocks a door and allows them to see things that are not constructs of their brain necessarily.
They are things that are there, but they can't see them because of their present mindset.
Exactly.
In my previous book, Opening the Doors of Perception, this is exactly what I discussed, that these substances, because recent research has been done.
It's quite fascinating stuff at the moment.
I actually work with some quite interesting postgraduate researchers in various colleges and organizations around the world.
And there was recent research done whereby they had individuals who took psilocilocybin, magic mushrooms.
And what they did was they did an MRI scan of the brain while people were in the psilocybin state.
And much to their surprise, they discovered that the psilocybin actually switches off elements of the brain.
In other words, it switches off the brain's ability to be what Henri Bergson called the attenuator.
And C.D. Broad and various other individuals have argued this as well, that the brain takes away information.
It doesn't add to it.
It processes and presents to us what we need to survive within this scenario, which I believe is A simulation and it helps us survive this.
Now, what is very interesting here is that I'm working very closely with a group of individuals who are doing some fascinating research on ayahuasca stroke dimethyltryptamine at Imperial College in London.
And a multimillionaire called Anton Bilton has put up a great deal of money to do research into people taking intravenously dimethyltryptamine and then reporting what takes place when they go into these altered states of consciousness.
Now, one of my associates who's one of the postdoctoral researchers there was telling me, and I quote this in the book, and he was telling me that he took DMT, found himself in the DMT world and was approached by an entity who turned around to him and said, one of the Terence McKenna machine elves, as they're called technically, this entity turned around to him and said, you shouldn't be doing this this way.
This is not the way to contact us.
Please do not do this again.
He then found himself back in his body after the DMT was off.
Two weeks later, he goes into the DMT state again, and the very same creature came over to him again and said, I told you last time, this is not the way this should be done.
Now, that is intriguing.
Yeah, it's intriguing.
I understand what you're saying.
Sorry to interrupt, but that may just be a construct of his brain because he knew that he was taking part in research.
And research inevitably weighs the pros and cons of everything.
So if it was something that was thrown up by his brain, then the brain threw up something saying, no, no, no, no, no, this is not the way to do that.
No, there's a recent approach.
And I think that you could argue that.
But there are continual evidence that these entities do seem to have independence in certain ways.
I mean, in the book, one of the sections, in the opening section, I discuss an associate of mine, a Canadian researcher, and she was describing how she lucid dreams.
So she goes into lucid dream states.
And when she's in lucid dream states, she encounters other people and various things.
And when she was very, very young, she had a dream.
And the dream, there was a white cat that entered her bedroom.
And this white cat was quite strange within the dream.
It was just curiosity to her.
She went to school the next day.
And one of her school friends came over to her and turned around to her and said, when you were dreaming last night, did you see the white cat?
And she said, yes, I did.
And he said, yes, that was me.
I don't understand how that could be.
Exactly.
You know, so, you know, in the book, that was one of the first things when this young Canadian lady told me this, I became very intrigued by this because what does that mean?
He could not have guessed that.
She tells me she hadn't mentioned it to anybody else.
And yet there was somebody who seemed to be able to get into people's dreams.
So as I've suspected for a long time, that I don't know whether all dreams are that way, but some allow you an alleyway, an entrance into a collective universe.
I mean, look, I have lucid dreams too, Tony.
I have dreams that are astonishingly detailed, three-dimensional.
I meet and speak to people I've never seen before, and I have experiences that have not been on my conscious mind during the day.
And I have that increasingly.
I don't know what that is, but sometimes they're so realistic to me.
I mean, I had one last week, and maybe it was a stress that I don't know what it was.
But I was in a theater, a huge theater, and with a lot of people, actors I'd never seen before.
And I was having to take part in a play as an actor.
You know, I always, as a kid, I always admired people like Richard Berthman.
I always wanted to speak and act like them, but, you know, I was never going to be an actor.
But I was on the stage, but I hadn't learned the play, and all I had was the book.
And I was trying to act with these people who knew their lines, and I was trying to follow the page along with them.
Now, that's, you know, the actual scenario is probably not unique.
But the fact that I was interacting with people I'd never seen before in three dimensions and making decisions about that made me feel as I came out of this, and literally this dream was four or five nights ago, made me feel that I'd entered some kind of other world that was there already.
Yeah, I'd agree with this.
Again, you know, I argue that we have, and I'm thinking about a new book that I'm working on at the moment with an associate.
And one of the ideas we're putting forward is, you know, that consciousness is perception is at many levels.
And if you can argue that consciousness is not simply an epiphenomenon of brain behaviors, but the brain attunes into a consciousness field.
And that effectively there are levels of this consciousness field.
And at the highest level, it's a singularity.
Now, this doesn't seem as crazy as it seems, because if you go into quantum physics, one of the things that quantum physics, particularly these days, there's something called superposition.
And superposition is one of the basics of, for instance, quantum computing, which is the Google are working on this at the moment.
So this is known science.
And it basically, if you put two subatomic particles in the same state for a period of time, they become entangled.
So if you do one thing to one particle, the other one will echo it, however far apart they are instantaneously.
Okay?
Now, this means that when subatomic particles are close together, they entangle.
Now, extrapolate from this that the singularity point at the Big Bang, everything was just a point particle.
Everything that has ever existed, every single atom, every single subatomic particle was a singularity, including the atoms that make up your body, your brain, and everything else.
Now that means that they were all in a state of superposition at that point.
We then expand outwards within what we believe is a three-dimensional universe.
But effectively, at a more deeper level, we are a singularity.
We are all entangled.
So in which case, could this explain ESP?
Could this explain remote viewing?
Could this explain so many phenomena?
Because of course there is the great belief of some philosophers that we are all one singular consciousness experiencing itself subjectively.
This kind of is called pandeism.
Now if this is the case, and of course you probably know that Bill Hicks, there was a very famous monologue by Bill Hicks, the American comedian, which mentions this.
So if we're one singular consciousness, when we go into altered states of conscious, We attune into that greater consciousness, something I call the uber daemon.
And we attune into this, the Akashic field, the Akashic record.
And we attune into it.
So, in which case, we travel when we're in dream states, we travel within a universe that is like a computer simulation, just like this universe is a computer simulation.
The universe is nested realities, and we move within them.
And science is starting to understand this now.
One of the last papers that Stephen Hawking wrote before he died was about the idea of where information goes if you throw it into a black hole.
And of course, you know from the second or third law of thermodynamics, information can never be lost.
It can only be transferred and changed into something else.
So what happens if you threw a laptop into a black hole?
And the argument is the information is smeared along the edge of the black hole.
And it is argued that the whole edge of the universe contains all the information, digital information that is fired inwards to create an illusion of a three-dimensional universe, which is actually two-dimensional.
And we exist within it.
So we exist within a simulation.
Right.
So I get this image of one of those things that spins candy floss.
You know, you put the sugar on the outside, and then as the guy whirls the stick around, at the center of it, you start building up the candy floss.
That's what that sounds like.
Maybe that's too simplistic an analogy.
I don't know.
Analogies are always perfect because we have to talk in analogies because these things are so profoundly complex.
You know, the argument is, if it is a simulation, are we supposed to really understand we are a simulation?
Now, there are arguments.
I mean, a guy called Nick Bostrom in 1999, a philosopher at Oxford, wrote an incredible paper where he said it's almost 99% certain that we're existing within a simulation.
More and more information, Elon Musk is arguing about it at the moment as well.
There's a guy called Craig Hogan at the Perimeter Institute in Canada, in Ontario.
They're doing direct research to actually find the pixelation of the simulation.
So this then brings us right round to the role of these entities.
So who are these entities within the simulation?
Well, you talked about nested realities, and I had this image of a sort of Russian doll, you know, realities within realities.
Is that what we're coming to here?
Yes.
And the idea is that these entities are actually coming through from other realities into this one.
You know, they're literally pan-dimensional beings.
And these pan-dimensional beings have been with us since the year dot.
I mean, I was fascinated to discover, and I discussed these in the book, that last year they found a whole series of cave paintings in a cave underneath two villages in northern India, in Kando region.
And I will be talking about this tomorrow in London because I'm doing a talk tomorrow evening.
And these cave paintings are uncanny because the cave paintings show greys.
You know, there's no other question.
These are greys.
So these cave paintings from 10,000 years ago show greys.
You look at some other paintings.
Graham Hancock did a great deal of research on this and he did research in a place called the Junction Shelter in Didymer in South Africa.
He found entities in cave paintings there that looked exactly the same.
You then go and look at the paintings in Peshmer in France.
Again, ancient cave paintings.
You have entities with big black eyes and you have these entities that are classic greys.
These are clearly some form of archetype that seems to have independence of us.
Young children, when they have death, where they have periods of sleep paralysis, they will describe seeing entities.
And the entities are always, they describe very similar.
My mother saw an entity when she was developing Charles Bonnet syndrome.
These things are consistent and we can't, the consistency tells us that there's something real out there.
What it is.
But if they're on cave walls in South Africa and various other places, that would suggest that those civilizations, and you do talk about the ancient history of these experiences, that would suggest that those civilizations were more connected to these other realms than we are.
Correct.
Well, I always use the argument that we live within boxes.
Do you remember in the 1960s, there was a song called Little Boxes Made of Tiki Tacky?
Ticky Tacky, yes, and they all look just the same.
They're all just the same.
Now, we exist within boxes all the time.
We exist inured.
We are a barrier between us and the natural world.
I guarantee if you spent a night under the stars or spent a night in a cave system, that in that time you would be attuning into something of greater power.
Now, again, in the book, I discuss why this may be.
What is it about caves that seem to symbolize these creatures, these entities?
And I believe it's to do with the pineal gland, and it's the way the pineal gland synthesizes melatonin.
Because, of course, in darkness, the melatonin is synthesized because it's the thing that makes you want to go to sleep.
But I argue that melatonin and dimethyltryptamine are related substances, and the pineal gland, under certain circumstances, can stimulate and create endogenous, that is internally generated, dimethyltryptamine.
And there's growing evidence that dimethyltryptamine itself is our reality modulator.
Not only that, but it is generated by the brain and it can put us into altered states of consciousness.
In other words, we can create our own dimethyltryptamine.
Now, there are, for instance, there's the Kogi people in Latin America, and they have people called mammas.
They're young children that are put into darkness scenarios inside caves for the first 10 years of their life.
They do this specifically so they can become shamans, so they can attune with the other world.
And I think this is, again, to do with how the Pineal Grand processes information.
By going into these altered states, we can encounter these entities.
You're saying these children are put into caves to allow them to connect better.
Correct.
I mean, I know it's part of their tradition, but that sounds like a very wrong thing to do to a child to me.
Oh, to a child, It is no, I totally agree about the moral aspects of it because these children literally are deprived of darkness, they are placed in darkness.
Now, again, we did a huge event, myself and a group of researchers did an event at Dracolo, Dracolo Tunnels in Kidderminster.
And we actually tried to recreate Plato's Cave there.
We had people using virtual reality headsets.
We used the lucid light device to actually put people into altered states of consciousness while they were there.
And we are now working on my book is about to go into one of my books is about to go into Greek.
In fact, The Hidden Universe is already going into Greek.
They've already sold the rights for a Greek edition for this book.
It only came out in December.
Just explain the allegory.
It's one of the most fascinating things.
And I was not a philosophy person.
And my politics course in Liverpool required me to do some philosophy.
And I remember the guy who taught us about Plato, who was the first philosopher that we looked at, rightly, in the progression of philosophers.
He was from the Northeast and he used to talk about Plato.
And he used to go, Plato's allegory of the cave.
Just explain that because it's a beautiful thing.
It's an incredible one because it makes you think outside and makes you start to realize about perception.
The idea is that there are a group of prisoners and they have been for all of their lives, rather like the Kogi shamans.
They are at the back of a cave, the back wall of a cave, and they can't move their heads and they're staring at the back wall of a cave.
They're tied in such a way that they cannot look behind them.
Now, behind them is a raised walkway.
And then between there and the cave entrance is a fire.
And the fire projects shadows onto the wall that the prisoners can see.
Now, over time, what the other people do, the prison guards, they have cardboard cutouts.
And they walk across the bridge between the fire and the back wall.
And the shadows of the cardboard cutouts they are carrying are shed on the back wall.
Now the prisoners, because they've never perceived anything else, believe that that is the totality of reality.
Reality is the shadows on the wall.
And we take the shadows on the wall to be all there is.
One of the prisoners manages to break his shackles, turns around, walks past the bridge with the people with the cardboard cutouts, past the fire to the cave entrance.
He looks out the cave entrance and sees reality as it really is.
He sees the pleuroma, as I argue.
He then goes back in and he tries to explain to his associates, the other prisoners, what he's seen.
And they consider him to be insane.
And I think this is what happens when people go into altered states of consciousness.
They come back and we don't have the verbal way, nor do we have the mechanisms whereby we can explain to people who haven't experienced these things exactly what we experience.
Going back to your argument of collier and the colour red.
The idea is you cannot explain a perception to somebody who hasn't perceived it.
And I believe this is what is happening, and this is what we're going to recreate in Greece.
I've actually found a paper from 1905 written in the Harvard Review isolating exactly which cave Plato based his Plato cave upon.
And it's called the Vari Cave and it's in Mount Hymatus near Athens.
And what we're planning to do is to actually recreate Plato's cave in Plato's cave using virtual reality, sound effects, altered states of consciousness, the whole thing.
And in fact, I'll be discussing this in two weeks' time with my Greek publisher who's actually coming over from Greece to discuss this.
And my lecturer was being very profound when he was talking about what he called Plato and how profound indeed that work was because it speaks to so much of our modern life that what we believe is reality is not so and perception is reality.
Well, I think it's because we're now in the position because of modern technology, because of virtual reality, and if anybody's ever used a virtual reality headset, you know that you go into a complete different world that you can orientate and you can walk around in three dimensions.
This is starting to make people question in a far more profound way than previous generations because they didn't have this form of technology to realize exactly what perception is and how perception can be fooled and how because you're getting the sensory feedback and the tactile feedback that you are in an external reality.
But we can now reproduce this as an illusion.
We can reproduce this to make you believe that you are existing in an alternate reality that seems real.
Now, imagine that you've been in that virtual reality since the moment of your birth.
Imagine you've been in Plato's cave from the moment of your birth and you don't know any different.
And I believe this is what is taking place now.
We are in a simulation and the simulation is so profoundly designed, we don't know it's the matrix.
You know, it's the same kind of concept, but I do the science.
And again, I always argue this.
Read my books and don't think that what I'm saying just sounds like it's just ideas I'm throwing out here.
I give you the academic papers.
I give you the researchers that are doing this.
As I said, look up the work of Craig Hogan, Juan Maldekarna.
There's a guy, an Israeli scientist who recently died called Jacob Beckenstein.
These guys are doing phenomenal work and they really are pushing the boundaries of what we understand reality is.
For instance, there is an Austrian quantum physicist called Anton Zeilinger at the University of Vienna.
The stuff he's doing with superposition and entangled particles, you would not believe this is science fiction that is happening now.
It's just that the 99.9% of the population are blissfully unaware of this.
We've known there's something wrong with this reality since 1925-26 when Erwin Schrödinger came up with Schrödinger's equation and when Max Born a few years later suggested that everything is a wave function, but it's a mathematical wave function.
Everything is mathematical.
It's based upon maths.
It's based upon digital information.
Finally, in terms of this amazing book by a guy called Vladgo Vidrell on reality, and I strongly advise anybody to read Vedrell's Book.
He's professor of quantum physics was at the University of Singapore.
This guy nails it.
He absolutely nails it.
So, if there is another reality or series of them beyond this one, which itself is a projection, how will it help us or will it help us to know about the other realities and to connect with whatever it might be, aliens, fairies, whatever it might be?
Is there any benefit to be gained from going down this path?
Or should we remain blissfully ignorant?
I think that probably one could argue, but this is just my own analysis of this, that we are in isolation, that we are not part of the greater something because we're not developed enough yet, and that we need to learn and to appreciate exactly what the greater universe is before we can start moving into it.
We're like a kindergarten and we're being taught.
And given time, as soon as we start to realize this, the whole universe will open.
Suddenly, the type of technology we can start working with is going to be unbelievable.
We are at a crossroads in human development.
Myself and my friends, I have a large group of associates from around the world, and we are arguing now that 2020 is going to be a phenomenally important year.
We're either going to destroy ourselves, we're going to destroy the planet, or we're going to break out of this.
And we feel, and this is sounding incredibly vain, but whenever we meet up, we feel we've got all the pieces of a huge jigsaw puzzle.
It's just we need to put it together.
We have so many things we're going to be doing this year.
I'm working with psychologists, I'm working with virtual reality people, I'm working with sociologists, I'm working with quantum physicists, hypnotists.
We're all trying to come together this huge Venn diagram, this huge jigsaw puzzle.
We're trying to put the pieces together.
And I feel that my work has progressed over the years.
I'm a writer that develops.
I don't stick with one idea.
I just go where the information tells me.
And if the information tells me that something I have written about was incorrect years ago, I just amend my hypothesis.
Now, you know that a number of people, even at the beginning of this year, certainly during last year, a number of people you wouldn't have expected to say this, a number of organizations you wouldn't have expected to come out with this, have postulated that we are quite close to discovering that we are not alone in the universe, that other forms of life as we might perceive them exist.
What would that, if that was announced a week next Tuesday, what would that do to everything that you're doing?
It would be so exciting because effectively, I would, again, this is going to be a profoundly, I could be hung on this statement, but I genuinely believe that any alien entities would actually be in a position to tell us that I'm actually right, that what I'm suggesting here is the way it is.
And I would stake so much on that because the information I've got is so powerful and the supporting data and the supporting information is such.
All the time people are approaching me from around the world.
I get professors of philosophy, professors of quantum physics who would just contact me out of the blue and say, my God, I've just read your books.
I cannot believe what you're saying.
Why on earth isn't the world listening to you?
And I know that that's not me.
I'm not into that kind of big guru stuff.
But really, I have to spend the time watching other writers fiddling around with a tenth of the stuff I'm dealing with because they're silos.
They're working in silos.
They're not communicating with each other.
I'm in the fortunate position that I'm a non-academic.
Therefore, I don't have academic tenure and I can go where the information tells me to go.
So in my books, I deal with so many different subjects.
For instance, there's a whole section on my book on encounters with the Fae, encounters with goblins.
I have a whole section on the book of Enoch and the Watchers and the way in which if you start, and I'm working at the moment, I have a new friend who's an Ethiopian researcher, a postdoctoral researcher in Ethiopian studies, who's telling me about how the Book of Enoch and its roots within the Coptic church in Ethiopia.
And if you read the Book of Enoch, this is incredible stuff.
This is alien encounters taking place thousands of years ago with entities.
Do you think that ancient civilizations were more open to contact?
I do.
I feel that we have, and I remember many years ago reading Brindi Leportranche's book, The Sky People, about 1967-68, a precursor of von Daniken.
And I believe that these civilizations worked in different ways.
I use the example, for instance, that imagine a CD-ROM being found by a 19th century physicist.
They would not have a clue what that was.
They think it was some kind of mirror.
And I think the same thing is happening when we come across ancient civilizations.
I mean, I was at Ankle Watt a few years ago.
Breathtaking place.
You know, it beggars belief that these civilizations were not advanced.
They were.
They used to use different technologies.
And I'll be speaking about this.
I'll be speaking at the Contact in the Desert event in Southern California at the end of May.
And I'll be liaising with an awful lot of the researchers that are involved in the TV show Ancient Aliens.
They're not going to like what I'm going to be saying, because they're not, because I'm looking for answers.
I'm not just looking for the G-Wis stuff.
But there is evidence here.
You know, Graham Hancock is the man in terms of this.
You know, it is very important.
We need to join the dots and realize that the universe is enfolded within itself.
It's far more complex, far more fascinating, and far more exciting.
Of course, it's one thing to say it and another thing to demonstrate it.
That's going to be the hard part, isn't it?
How will you and your colleagues, the people around the world that you're working with, demonstrate that all of this is so?
Well, the work we're doing at the moment on the psychonauts who are actually taking themselves into the DMT zone, there's going to be some interesting research there.
I'm working with two Austrian, a consultant neurologist and a consultant psychologist who've invented something called the Lucia light device.
We believe this can actually stimulate the pineal gran to release dimethyltryptamine.
We're having people being placed in altered states of consciousness naturally using these processes.
These people are giving us some quite fascinating feedback.
What we need is absolute evidence.
For instance, we need evidence whereby people go into an altered state of consciousness or they lucid dream and they meet somebody else in a lucid dream.
Those people swap information and bring that information back.
And it's objectively done.
Now, I've got evidence of that, but we need it more quantifiable.
Because effectively, if you could go into an altered state of consciousness, go into another realm, get information back and share the experience with somebody else, that means that reality is just as real as this one.
Because the only reason we believe this reality is real is because it's consensual and we share it.
And if you see a red bus driving down the road and I see a red bus driving down the road, we both agree that that is external to us and therefore is real.
Now, we know, you know, we're both from the Merseyside area originally, that the Beatles were a big force in creativity.
They still are.
And I am in no way, nor would I ever advocate, I'm not advocating, nor do I advocate the use of any what we would call drugs, but we know that the Beatles went to see the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.
They experimented with LSD, and then they produced some of their most creative work.
Now, again, I'm not saying this to advocate the use of drugs before anybody says so, but they came back with some amazing stuff in the very late 60s.
Do you believe that it was more than them just being shown another aspect of their own minds that they connected with that allowed them to make Sgt. Pepper and the stuff that they did that changed the face of their music and the world's music?
I totally agree with that.
And again, going back to the point I was making earlier on, that everything's embedded in itself.
So when you say that they went inside themselves when they took LSD to facilitate their creativity, I would argue that they were going inside and attuning into what Jung would have called the collective unconscious, whereby all the information is there and can be drawn back again.
So what we do is we attune into the greater information field.
I wrote a book with Irvin Laszlo a few years ago.
Now Laszlo again deals with the holographic nature of reality and he calls it the Akashic field or the Akashic record.
And it's something called the zero point field, which is an information field.
Now we seem to be able to attune into this information field given certain sets of circumstances.
Now again, you know, I wrote a book called A Daemon, The Guide to Your Extraordinary Secret Self about human creativity and how it is that people, when they go into these altered states, seem to have a creativity that is greater than themselves.
You know, they have stories that they don't think about.
I deal with writers who write in a kind of a fugue state, and it's only when they finish writing that the story is there, created for them.
The human mind is a much more amazing thing.
And again, as I say, I don't think we need to advocate taking these substances because I think, well, I don't think I know.
Effectively, the human brain works upon chemicals.
How it works, it works to do with neurotransmitters.
But I would argue that the human brain, we've got the brain wrong.
We think that the brain is neurological and that it's neurons that are doing it.
I'm arguing, and I'm working with neurologists on this, and we're arguing that it's the glial network, it's the glial cells in the brain that work non-locally.
And it is the glial cells that communicate with the greater universe.
Because you know the way the phrase people say we only use one-tenth of our brain.
That is because literally one-tenth of the brain is neurons that react chemically with each other using neurotransmitters.
And the remaining nine-tenths are glial cells.
Nine-tenths of the brain, we don't know what it does.
The word glial is German for glue because it was originally thought the glial cells were literally the glue that held the neurons in place.
There's now something called the intercellular ionic wave that's found across the brain, which seems to be that we are misunderstanding how the brain works.
The brain is a receiver.
It receives information from the greater information field, from outside this, whatever this is, whatever this, what I call the Bohmian IMAX.
All of this is fascinating.
All of it is exciting.
The one thing that throws a great big spanner into all of this, our experience of what we call reality or our reality here.
Why do we die then?
What's the point of that?
We don't.
We don't.
That's the, in my first book, the book that made my name, is The Life After Death, The Extraordinary Science of What Happens When We Die, I have a complete model of what happens when we die.
We don't.
People die in other people's worlds.
It's very important to realize this.
And again, I would suggest that people look up the work of a guy called Professor Max Tegmark.
Tegmark is a Swedish-American at Princeton University.
A few years ago, he came up with something he called the quantum suicide Ganken experiment, thought experiment.
Look it up on YouTube.
What he suggests is you can prove by using quantum physics that you can never die in your own universe.
You're creating your universe by observing it.
You are collapsing the wave function of every subatomic particle in your universe, as is every other sentient being.
And these universes overlap and you interface with other people from within what I call your phaneron.
I was using the term of a philosopher called Charles Pierce.
We all exist in our own phanerons, our own computer reality, our own virtual reality game.
And we interface with other virtual reality games.
But our virtual reality game continues.
Again, imagine that you are in a computer game.
If you've ever played things like Tomb Raider, you switch the game on and in the game is Laura Croft on the screen.
Laura Croft runs down a corridor, you move her down a corridor, and she goes into a room and she's eaten by a monster.
She dies.
But you, the game player, do not die.
You go back to the start of the game and Laura is reborn again, this time with you knowing the danger involved in her going into that room.
I believe this is what happens in life.
You will live this life many, many, many times, just like you play a computer game many, many times within the greater universe.
What?
So you're saying that the life that I've lived, the life that you're leading, you're not going to come back as something else.
You're going to hit reset and go back to the beginning of it?
Play it again?
You come back as yourself.
You live a groundhog life.
The Russian language edition of my first book was called Groundhog Life, a Chronicle of Your Immortality.
So you keep going round and round again, but hopefully getting it better each time.
Is that right?
Yeah, it's not the eternal return, the Nietzschean eternal return of Frederick Nietzsche.
It's a spiral.
The idea is that just like you play the same computer game over and over again, but every game is different.
You know, you do it, you play it, and you learn every time you play the game.
Just like Connors in the movie Groundhog Day learns every day.
He acquires additional knowledge.
He changes.
He develops.
He grows.
This is what this life is.
Well, that is very positive because I would hate...
I hate the idea of coming back again and maybe coming back as maybe somebody with more issues, more problems than I've got.
But the idea that I'm coming back to this, but I'm going to do it better next time is very appealing.
You've got to put right the wrongs you did last time.
And that's why you have the little voice in your head, which is your daemon, telling you, don't do this.
You know, sometimes you meet people and you have this immediate attraction or revulsion about them.
It's because you've met them before.
And in a previous life, something went wrong.
This time round, you were warned and you change it.
You avoid that.
But not only this, I argue that this happened.
It's genetic as well.
In other words, your parents, your grandparents, your great-grandparents all made decisions that in turn affected your life here.
Because your parents could have decided to, like my parents could have done, emigrated to Australia.
They didn't go.
My father could have had a whole new life in Canada and I'd have been Canadian and he didn't.
And I frequently wished he had.
But in an alternate universe, that already exists.
Again, quantum physics, Stephen Hawking and Frank Hartle, who from CERN, came up with a complex idea called the top-down hypothesis of quantum physics.
It's again all trying to explain the mysteries of Schrödinger's cat and the observer nature of reality.
And they argued that every potentiality already exists out there.
It's already encoded into the system.
Every decision, every micro decision you make and everybody else makes is already encoded.
You just follow one path rather than another.
It's like Bourges' famous short story, The Garden of the Forking Paths.
The idea is you make a decision and you go down one path or another, which means eventually you will live the perfect life, like Buddhism suggests.
I'm sorry to interrupt, but it's important, I think, I say this, but if we're constantly repeating this one and going down the different paths to get it right eventually, which, geez, in my own case, I hope I do, what's the point of all these other alternative realities then and the creatures that may reside within them that we sometimes interconnect with?
They're doing the same thing.
That's the fascinating thing.
As we broaden this out, it becomes even more exciting and even more like a Russian doll in the sense that if they have their own simulations, and of course the argument is who is the creator of the simulation, if it's nested simulations.
But I'd like to go back very quickly to ancient Greek philosophy because the ancient Greeks tweaked this.
The ancient Greeks had a concept called anamnesis, which is the loss of forgetting.
The idea that we are reborn many, many times, but we've forgotten the fact that we have lived this life many times.
And again, they have a theme where you drink the waters of the river Lethe, L-E-T-H-E, and you drink the waters of the river of forgetting, which washes all your memories clear.
And when you did that, you were allowed to go back across the river Styx, back from the Elysian fields, back into the normal reality to live your life again.
Now, this again, it's a theme.
You look at, it's in the Zeitgeist, it's in the Veltgeist.
There's so many movies, there's so many things that now deal with this exact concept.
You know, so many movies.
Vanilla Sky is a classic example of this.
Run, Lola, Run, a German film, has the eternal recurrence.
Triangle, there's various movies here, deja vu.
But there would be a way to prove this, wouldn't there?
If you and the people that you're working with decided to leave some kind of proof, sign or something for you to find, if you could remember, in your next incarnation when you're coming back around again.
It happens all the time.
They're called synchronicities.
They're called rooted synchronicities.
They happen all the time.
Myself and my group, we have synchronicities you would not believe.
We laugh at them now.
We get messages.
For instance, I'll give you an example of how I messaged myself in a previous life, in my own earlier life, if we have time.
When I was researching my first book, I needed to understand about mitochondria and mitochondrial DNA.
Mitochondrial DNA is carried through the female line.
Now, I am a great, although you won't believe this, I'm a great fan of Richard Dawkins.
And I have all of his books.
Now, when I was doing this research, I thought, who's going to write about mitochondrial DNA?
It'd be Richard Dawkins.
So I went to my collection of Richard Dawkins books.
Caveat here, I never dog ear pages.
It's something I never, ever do.
Okay, it's something I do not do.
I hate it.
I like my books to be pristine.
I go to my collection of books and I went to his book, The Blind Watchmaker.
I take The Blind Watchmaker out and I noticed that one page had been doggeared.
And I remembered doing that.
Suddenly the recollection came back to me and I was sitting on a beach in a tiny Greek island called Simi about 15 years before.
And I remember weirdly doing it, dog-earing a Particular page and going up to the bar to get a drink.
When I took the book out, I couldn't help but smile because I say, I know what page I've dog eared, what my earlier self has doggeared.
I opened the page, it's the only page in any of his books that he mentions mitochondria.
Now, that to me was a message from my daemon using my body, my eidolonic, my in-encounter body, to leave me a message for the future to say, this is what you need now.
Now, if this was an isolated incident, I could live with it.
It's not.
This happens to me all the time.
We have had some of the coincidences are just alarming.
I used to have a little group of people that used to meet at the Walker Art Gallery in Liverpool, and I used to do a regular show with Billy Butler on BBC Radio Merseyside.
Wonderful Bill, yeah.
Oh, Bill was fantastic.
I was with him for about three years every fortnight.
We discussed these kind of things.
And some of the coincidences that happened were just mind-blowing.
I mean, have we time for me to give you an example?
Oh, totally.
Okay, fine.
Get this.
It's a long, long winding story, but of great importance.
One of my previous books, I've written a book on J.B. Priestley.
I did at the National Gallery about 10 years ago.
I was invited to do a platform lecture before a production of Time and the Conways.
I needed to know more information about J.B. Priestley, and I discovered, I was living on Wirral at the time, and I discovered that Tom Priestley, J.B. Priestley's son, was going to be giving a talk at the Playhouse in Liverpool before a production of another J.B. Priestley play, When We Are Married.
I phoned up the Playhouse and said, could you contact Tom Priestley because I'd like to have a chat with him if possible before the production.
Tom said, yes.
Met up with Tom and I explained like I've been explaining to you about my theories.
And Tom was enthralled by this and he said, my father would have loved your work.
And he said, did you know that in 1963, my father was on the program called Monitor by Hugh Weldon.
1963, it was on a Saturday and Sunday night.
Famous BBC Arts programme.
Correct.
You've got it.
Now, Priestley was describing the work he was doing in preparation for his new book, Man and Time.
And he turned around to the audience, or Hugh Weldon turned around to the TV audience and said, if anybody's had time anomalies or anything strange, can they write to Mr. Priestley via us?
And we'll send the letters.
Tom then told me, he said, my father received about 7,000 letters.
He used about 10 of them in the book, Man and Time.
The rest of them, nobody else has read.
Would you like to read them?
And I said, of course I would.
And he said, I can get you access to them at the Cambridge University Documents Library.
I spent 10 days there about eight or nine years ago going through these letters.
Okay, and I still, and in my book, on my book on J.B. Priestley, the whole second section is on the letters I discovered.
One of the letters was really uncanny.
Now, I am going somewhere with this, but I don't think I'm off on a tangent.
One of the letters is the most amazing thing I have ever seen.
In the letter, this guy describes, an ordinary guy describes he's on holiday.
He was down on holiday in Dorset.
Him and his wife had planned to go to the Farnborough Earth Show in 1953, I think.
I think it was 53, something like that.
And they were going to go that weekend.
On the Thursday night, his wife goes to bed, wakes up on the Friday morning and says, I don't want to go to the Earth Show.
I had a terrible dream last night.
I saw a silver aircraft fly over, loop the loop, go through the sonic boom and disintegrate.
The engines came off and scores of people were killed.
There's going to be a disaster.
They then go to the Earth Show.
They get to the Earth Show and she tenses up and she said, oh my God, it's that plane.
And she saw the silhouette of a plane flying over.
It was the C. Vixen and it was being flown by a guy called John Derry, one of the top fighter pilots and test pilots.
It was the de Havilland C. Vixen, twin-engined supersonic plane.
Goes flying over and as he comes towards her, he said, no, you're wrong.
Her husband turned around and said, you said the plane was silver.
That's black.
It's the wrong.
It's not the same.
The plane goes over, goes through the sonic bang, and it lands.
There's no problem.
They then travel home.
Next morning, breaking news, there's been a terrible disaster at the Farnborough Airshow.
36 odd people have been killed.
One of the engines came off.
John Derry's been killed.
Tony Holland, the assistant pilot, has been killed.
What happened was the original black plane developed a technical problem.
So Derry went back to Cardington to pick up the prototype, which was silver.
It was the silver plane that disintegrated, that killed the people that the lady saw in her dream.
Now, I'm preparing in my little group in Liverpool to talk about this on the show that I was going to be doing with Billy going out live.
And I used to meet my group beforehand.
We're sitting there, and one of the members of the group is Professor Sean Street, who you may know, used to work for the BBC, Scouser, poet, became professor of media at the University of Southampton, I think.
Anyway, they were planning, him and his wife were planning to come move back to the Merseyside area.
So they were at my meeting.
As I'm telling this story to the group, he starts nodding and he's nodding his head.
And I said, Sean, what's the problem?
He said, I'll tell you when you've finished.
Stops nodding his head.
We finish and Sean said, you know, you were talking about synchronicities in this group.
And I said, yes.
And he said, what do you believe the chances are of you telling that story to a group of six people decades after the event?
And one of the people not only was there that day, saw the crash take place, but has actually done BBC radio programmes on it.
He said, I've done this work.
He said, you're not going to believe this, but the day we left Liverpool to go down to the Earth Show at Farnborough, my mother turned around and said to me and my father, I had a bad dream last night.
Please do not go to stand where you're going to be standing.
Where him and his father were going to be standing was where the engine came down and killed People.
I then tell that tale on BBC Radio Merseyside, and Sean Fold phoned in live to explain the coincidence that took place.
They're the kind of synchronicities.
Well, that's an astonishing circle, and I know from my own life's experience, I'm not as dramatic as that.
But stuff like that happens all the time.
One quick last question in the book of The Hidden Universe.
You discuss many things, including ghosts.
My ghost hunting friends, those who use equipment to do it, and many of them do these days, often talk to me about electronic voice phenomena and sometimes play me examples of either clear or unclear speech that they've derived that they say is from the other side.
What do you, you talk about EVPs in your book.
What do you think they are?
There is, I think it's called Parallalia.
It's worked by human beings.
We are programmed to make sense out of things that might be nonsensical.
Now, I'm not criticizing EVP.
I wrote a whole section on EVP in my book that I co-authored with Irvin Laszlo.
But the EVP I heard wasn't terribly convincing, I have to say.
It's kind of sounds because it's kind of noise within noise.
And the brain tries to make sounds and make sense of things.
So I'm not too sure whether it is actually what it's claimed to be.
However, there is a lady called Donna, again from Liverpool, who was part of my group in Liverpool, who recorded some strange EVP phenomenon at the church in the grounds of Stansted Mount Fitchett House, which is a place that trains mediums in Essex.
And I've spoken a couple of times here.
And I have to say the voices I heard there were quite distinct.
And there did seem to be something trying to communicate.
I know about Radiv and all his work and everybody as well.
So I'm aware of this.
But she then told me an incredible story about a friend, her sister's husband, who was a lorry driver in Liverpool, who was killed in a terrible accident.
And his phone was destroyed.
She then gets home and two days later, there's a message on her answer phone.
And it was his voice.
Phoning.
And the date stamp was the day after he had died.
And the phone had been destroyed.
The phone and the sim had been destroyed.
Well, that could have been an electronic anomaly with the date stamp.
It depends on the message, I suppose.
She involved the police on this, and the date stamp was correct.
Now, she brought this up to me as evidence for my cynicism on the whole thing.
And I have to say, that was really quite uncanny.
EVP, it is interesting.
Is it communication from elsewhere?
I was going to have a section in the new book on EVP, but I ran out of space.
I had twice as much material as the material that ended up in this.
It needs another book.
It needs another book.
It does indeed, which is the case.
Boy.
Fascinating as ever to speak.
The nice thing about you is that we don't have to consciously go through items and plug the book.
We can talk around it, which we always do, and we always do entertainingly and fascinatingly.
So listen, I wish you well at contact in the desert and all of the things that you do, Tony.
And we must speak again.
I say that at the end of every conversation you and I have, and we always do it, and it's always interesting.
Absolutely, Howard.
I absolutely love talking to you.
You get it.
I hope I do.
And that's why I'm doing it, I think.
Tony, thank you very much.
And you.
Always fascinating and always genuinely thought-provoking, Anthony Peake, the guest on this edition of The Unexplained.
Your thoughts about him or any of my shows, welcome.
Please go to my website, theunexplained.tv, and you can send me a message from there.
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Thank you very much for being part of this.
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And until next, we meet.
My name is Howard Hughes.
I am in London.
This has been The Unexplained Online.
And please, whatever you do, stay safe, stay calm, and please stay in touch.
Take care.
Thanks very much.
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