The Unexplained - Howard Hughes - Edition 377 - Jock Brocas

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Jan. 14, 2019 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes

01:07:13

Edition 377 - Jock Brocas

Scottish-American Medium Jock Brocas - a VERY different take on the dont's - and the do's of afterlife connection...

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	Across the UK, across continental North America, and around the world on the internet.
	By webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes, and this is The Return of the Unexplained.
	Very cold here in London at the moment.
	I understand significantly warmer in the southern hemisphere from what I'm reading.
	I guess we're just going to have to wait a few months for it to improve.
	And maybe this is only temporary.
	We've had a very mild winter here so far, but there's been a bit of a blip over the last few days, so it does feel appreciably colder.
	And for those who don't like my weather reports from London, that's as far as I'm going on that.
	The guest on this edition of the show is somebody who takes us back into the field of mediumship and communicating with what may be beyond us.
	But there are many warnings, in the words of Jock Brokas, who's going to be the guest on this edition of the show, for the unwary or the inexperienced.
	And there are downsides, he says, in his new book, which is called Deadly Departed, The Do's and Don'ts and Dangers of Afterlife Communication.
	There are many warnings about the dangers of doing this.
	And you will hear about some of those dangers and the things that if you believe this kind of thing that you can do to avoid the man traps and pitfalls that there may be in getting involved with anything like this.
	Do I believe that there is an afterlife?
	Well, I would like to think that there is one.
	Whether I want to be accessing it, I don't know.
	But there are people who'd like to, and we know that there are people who do.
	So we're going to be talking about that on this edition of the show.
	Thank you very much for some kind emails that I've had recently from some brand new listeners to the show, or certainly from some people who've never emailed before.
	Thank you for your new year greetings and the nice things that you've been saying.
	If you want to go to my new website, then go to theunexplained.tv.
	The new version will be available very soon.
	But the website allows you to send me an email, give me guest suggestions, do whatever you want to do, just simply by following a link on the website.
	And please register a hit on the website.
	Very useful for us.
	If you would like to make a donation to this ongoing work and its development, you can do that too at the website, theunexplained.tv, developed and being developed by Adam Cornwell from Creative Hotspot in Liverpool.
	Like I say, thank you so much, whichever part of the world you're in for the recent feedback I've heard from every corner of the globe in the last week or two.
	And it's so gratifying to know that here I am in cold London, and there are people experiencing this show and a little slice of my life with me.
	You know, it's a worldwide family.
	I know I've said that before.
	And we've developed this ourselves in all the years that we've been doing it.
	And online, that will be 13 years this year.
	13 years by the time we get to Easter time here, that's how old the Unexplained Online will be.
	Which is an astonishing achievement for something that is done on a small scale but tries to punch well above its weight, don't you think?
	Okay, let's get to the guest in the U.S. now in North Carolina, Jock Brokas, author and evidential medium and the do's and don'ts of doing those things.
	Jock, thank you for coming on the show.
	It's an absolute pleasure, Howard.
	It really is.
	Now, we have to just explain to our listener here that you have a very interesting way of making these connections because the internet where you are is not so good.
	You're actually doing this.
	Are you doing this in your car?
	I'm in my car.
	I have a Starbucks double tall Cappuccino sitting next to me and this is where I get the best signal at the moment.
	Okay, is it where you get inspiration?
	Well, I tend to do a lot of work in Starbucks.
	I'm a gold card holder and it gets really bad when you go into the same Starbucks and they say, hi, Jock, we've got your usual out for you.
	That's really good, isn't it?
	You know, they don't even have to ask you for your name to put on the cup.
	No, not at all.
	Now, listen, what's a Scottish guy, I can tell from your accent, doing in North Carolina?
	Well, North Carolina is a lot better than Orlando, and it's very much like Scotland.
	So actually, my wife and I lived in Florida.
	We lived in Orlando for quite a long time.
	And I didn't really like it.
	For a start, in Florida, everything wants to kill you.
	If it flies, it wants to kill you.
	If it crawls, it wants to kill you.
	If it swims, it wants to kill you.
	And the weather is so hot and humid.
	It's great to go for a holiday, but it is a hell of a place to live in.
	Okay, we'll give your email address at the end of this for our listeners in Florida.
	Absolutely.
	Personally, I really like Florida.
	Florida is beautiful.
	I think, you know, when you go there and you spend a few weeks, there's some beautiful beaches, you know, it's a nice experience.
	But when you've lived there a number of years, I mean, I'm Scottish.
	We had four seasons.
	We had snow.
	I never seen snow for years.
	And it was just so humid, you can't breathe half the time.
	So I came to North Carolina.
	It was like Scotland.
	It was like the UK.
	It had seasons.
	I had snow.
	I had rain.
	I had the whole gamut.
	I was like, you know what?
	We've got to go there.
	Well, you'll get no arguments from me on any of that.
	All right.
	We've done the preliminaries, as they say.
	Let's get into the topic under discussion here.
	And this is a book that you've written and research that you've done based on your own work, which deals with a side of all of this that a lot of people sidestep.
	You know, a lot of people who set themselves up as mediums or whatever.
	They don't actually address these things.
	They don't actually talk about whether the person who consults them or reads their book or whatever might have some abilities themselves and what, if they want to use those abilities or capitalize on them in any way, what kind of precautions they ought to take, what kind of steps they should take to make sure that what they're doing is actually a safe thing to do, assuming that you believe such things exist in this world.
	So that's what you've done with this, isn't it?
	Absolutely.
	I wrote the book, Howard, there was two particular reasons I wrote the book.
	To let people and professionals that are mediums understand that where there's light, there is darkness, and there is an inherent danger.
	And it's not all about getting adulation and, you know, reading for people and, you know, letting the ego fly.
	There is inherent dangers, and also to address the problem of those who are suffering from perhaps spiritual problems or suffering from dabbling in things that they shouldn't know, or families who are perhaps under subjugation of spiritual forces,
	to actually educate and teach and to awaken divine power within them and to basically say that there is a dangerous side to the afterlife.
	And I want people to understand that.
	I want professionals to take responsibility because, you know, here's the thing.
	If you were a medium Howard and you'd never experienced anything, I always say that a sceptic is just someone who hasn't experienced the paranormal in their own personal remit.
	But somebody who's maybe suffering seriously and they are actually experiencing some really bad negative malevolent force, some kind of subjugation in their life, and they come to you looking for help and they're maybe beside themselves and they're crying their eyes out and they don't know what's happening with their family.
	Are you just going to turn around and say, I don't believe in any of that?
	And that's just in your mind and don't worry about it and carry on.
	I understand suffering.
	I understand that part of what you're saying.
	I think there would be some people who say that you are by writing a book like this and saying, here's what you do and this is the way you protect yourself, you're actually encouraging some people who may be vulnerable themselves to draw themselves into getting involved with something that they would be better off leaving alone.
	I think what I've done is I kind of want to leave it to the point, look, everybody's got a free will.
	And I can't stop people dabbling in something that they're interested in.
	I don't like it.
	I think it should be left to professional people.
	But also what we've got to remember is that some people get into these problems through no fault of their own.
	And that can even come down to just drug use.
	It can come down to all different things that happen in the world.
	And so what I've done with the book is basically, if you're going to take your own free will and you're going to try and develop as a medium, then you should recognize that there is these dangers and these are precautions that you should take.
	Because there's a very simple analogy that I would like to share with people.
	And that is this fact.
	We only know pain because we know health.
	We only know darkness because we know light.
	And we only know up because we understand down.
	And there is scientific principles in these things.
	There is an equal and opposite effect to everything.
	So to negate, you know, to put your head in the sand like an ostrich and say the evil doesn't exist is almost nonsensical to me.
	And I would rather that people would prepare themselves and understand.
	And here's the other thing.
	If you're a general in a potential war, every general or every military operative needs to understand the modus operandi of their opponent.
	And it's the same as playing chess.
	You play chess with someone, you want to understand how their strategies are.
	So what you're telling me here then is that good and evil exist, and you have to be able to do what you do if you want to do what you do and avoid the pitfalls of encountering evil.
	Absolutely.
	You want to avoid the pitfalls.
	It does exist.
	And also you want to be ready in case you're called to help someone.
	But I mean, 99% of paranormal cases that get brought up, Howard, I would say many of them can be explained scientifically.
	There's very, very few cases that actually result in some sort of nefarious malevolent force, whether you believe in it as a diabolical spirit or whether you believe it as something else.
	Well, that's very refreshing that you say that, because, you know, I've spoken to people who would like to make you believe that, you know, the percentage of things that are paranormal is very high.
	And, you know, I think there maybe is something out there, but I think in many cases there are rational explanations for what it is.
	And you've just said exactly that.
	There is.
	I would say, I mean, I'm, you know, there's a lot of probably mediums don't like me for this because I'm probably more of a skeptical medium than anything.
	I look at more of the science beyond, you know, the science of something, and I try to explain things rationally before I'll even attempt to say, okay, there is probably a spiritual, you know, force at work here.
	And 99% of paranormal things are actually explainable.
	And I have to say, even when paranormal teams go in to investigate homes or they go in to investigate haunted areas, I also are very questionable about that.
	I don't kind of work with those kind of things because there's too many unprepared teams that do things as hobbies or people that just have an interest in the paranormal.
	And they might come across some family home that actually has some kind of problem or they're having some kind of experience.
	And they're all too quick and ready to jump in and say, it's a demon.
	It's a demon.
	It's this, it's that.
	You need to do this.
	You need to bring in a psychic in a medium.
	And that's probably one of the worst and probably the most terrible things to do because you're causing more suffering to the people that are under that pressure.
	So you need to go very slowly.
	You need to understand people's psychology.
	You need to understand the science of it.
	And you need to have a very good empathy with these kind of things.
	And try and, and the more that you understand, the more you might be able to bring a conclusion or less suffering or help people to understand that they're actually not being demonically possessed and they are not under spiritual attack.
	And I think that's a very, very important aspect to do.
	There's too many people ready to jump on the paranormal bandwagon and it's dangerous.
	Yeah.
	And I think reading your book, I think halfway through, three quarters of the way through, you addressed some of this.
	And I got the impression that you think that there are some people out there who think that they're investigators who've actually watched a little bit too much Scooby-Doo.
	I do.
	I remember that as a kid.
	Yeah, exactly.
	And there's some of them.
	I've actually seen it.
	You know, I've seen teams that look like they're from the Scooby-Doo cartoon and they go.
	And here's the other thing.
	I mean, when you go into somewhere that might have some kind of paranormal story and they go in with all manner of contraptions and things like that, one of the things that, yeah, they have their place, like everything in science has its place.
	But the reality of measuring these things with these tools, all it does is give you a measurement.
	It doesn't prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that there's actually any spiritual problem going on there.
	Now, I have a colleague that I'll be speaking to recently, and he is a very well-respected member.
	He was a well-respected member of the American government.
	And he actually went through a diabolical episode in his home and wrote a book about it.
	But the actual phenomena and things that they were receiving were beyond any scientific reproach.
	And there was a great deal of problems there.
	So there is certain modus operandi that people need to understand.
	And I don't personally work with paranormal teams and go into these.
	I don't go to investigate home, you know, potential haunted locations on tour buses and tour guides and things like that.
	This person you say that is connected with the American government, who you've spoken to recently.
	Yeah.
	I appreciate that you cannot identify them by name.
	I'll identify him.
	I'll identify him because I'm going to be talking to him and interviewing him and him and if we can be sure that he would be happy with that fact.
	Yeah, he would.
	Actually, to be honest with you, Howard, I would put you in touch with him because he would be a fantastic guy to talk to because he's gone through some real stuff.
	And his name is Bob Cameron and his book is The Demon of Brunsville Road.
	Right.
	And just give me a little taste of what he believes he's been through.
	Well, listen, this guy's been a Catholic.
	He's been a pastor.
	He's worked in government.
	I think he went for local mayor.
	He was involved in politics and everything else.
	And he actually was in a home.
	He went through many, many years of diabolical episodes.
	And the great thing that Bob did, and he admitted, you know, when I've spoken to him, he made some, you know, bad choices and stuff like that.
	But he actually went through real subjugation, spiritual subjugation, real, real, real negative things.
	And he has documented it.
	And I would recommend that you actually read it because it's probably one of the few cases that I can say there's maybe not a lot of poetic license in this.
	There's a lot more truth and basis in this.
	And there's always going to be a skeptical target.
	There's always going to be a skeptical bent on something.
	But he has the validations.
	He has the images.
	He has the photographs.
	He has gone through.
	It upset his whole family.
	You can listen to his interview on YouTube.
	I found him a great person to connect with and chat with.
	What sorts of things happened to him?
	Just, you know, as a brief sketch.
	And what did he do about it?
	Well, see, let me explain something.
	When a possible real diabolical infestation or oppression happens, it's so subtle that you don't necessarily notice it and it happens over a long period of time.
	To his extent, his got to the point where the phenomena was completely objective and witnessed, including, well, it wasn't blood, and he'll be the first bit, like blood that was going down the walls.
	He's got pictures of it, there's stains of it.
	But when it was scientifically tested, it wasn't that, it was a mixture of stuff that was actually probably brought together with some kind of force.
	He had levitation.
	I mean, he basically had the scratches.
	He had all of the components, if you like, that actually make up the reality of a diabolical oppression.
	And was this something that was in the location that he lived in, lives in, or was this something that somehow attached itself to him?
	His home.
	It was actually in the home that he bought.
	And the interesting thing is that he had an uncanny attachment to this home for many, many, many years.
	Even before he purchased it, it was one of these things that he looked at.
	And he bought the home.
	And all of us, you know, over a period of time, these things start to happen.
	And it started, you know, when I was chatting with him, it kind of started with him with just simple things that, you know, something has been moved.
	There's been an object moved.
	This happened, hearing noises.
	But he had, I mean, put it this way, he had the whole gamut of his rosary beads being demolished, torn apart, ripped up, put over his light bulb.
	And there's evidence of it.
	There's pictures, there's everything.
	And so I'm using him as probably one of the better modern explanations or equivalent to what can really happen.
	And like I said, a sceptic is a person who hasn't really experienced anything real paranormal, a pseudo-sceptic, and won't accept it.
	But when you're a guy that's respected in government, when you're a respected businessman, when you're a sceptic yourself and you go through this hell on earth, it doesn't matter what people think.
	The fact is, is, you're a target, your family's a target, and he went through some terrible, horrific things.
	And I would say that's probably one of the best modern cases of today that I would recommend people have a look at.
	Right.
	Well, that's one that I'm not aware of and will get myself aware of it.
	Just winding back to the beginning very briefly, your own story is interesting because for somebody who says he's a medium, you have a very unlikely background for it.
	Very early on in your book, you say that you come from a Catholic background and I think your uncle was a monk?
	Yeah, my granny was a convert to Catholicism.
	My father was Masonic.
	My mother was Catholic.
	My uncle was a monk in the Redemptorist Order.
	And I spent most of my youth really on religious retreats and going on retreats.
	And I wanted to be a priest, and I studied the priesthood.
	And I had a lot of experiences even then.
	But, you know, you're kind of, that's pushed away from you.
	You know, everything is taught, especially from a dogmatic principle, that it's evil and these things are bad.
	Well, you know, you probably don't know, but my listener will know that I'm from Liverpool.
	And, you know, half of my family is Catholic and the other half is Protestant.
	So I've seen both sides of the equation in Liverpool.
	And I know that the Catholic side in particular, but also the Church of England, but the Catholic side in particular would say that if you dabble in things like this, you are going to hell.
	In fact, if you're dabbling in stuff like this, you're probably there already.
	Well, here's the interesting thing, and a lot of people don't know this.
	There's a document that's called the Didachi, and the Didachi was basically the primordial, the beginning of Christianity.
	It's like the rules and the regulations of Christianity.
	And what's happened through the centuries, and in actual fact, there was a document that was released by Pope Francis not so long ago that actually recognizes spiritual gifts in people.
	And the way it's written, it's almost like, yeah, Catholics can have these gifts.
	As long as they're Catholics, we can recognize these gifts.
	That's kind of what it boils down to.
	But if you go way, way back in history and you go to the things like the Dadachi, you know, it will say things that, you know, if you conjure, then, you know, it's bad, it's evil, it's against it.
	Well, mediums don't conjure.
	Or if you use oracles and all that, well, we don't do that either.
	So there's a misunderstanding and communication between what the old Catholic Church or what the old Christianity initially had said was wrong to the modern day.
	So we don't create magic and spells.
	And the Catholic Church, the Anglican Church, and other religions are right when they turn around and they say it's evil to delve into these negative aspects.
	Yes, because there's black magic and there's witchcraft, et cetera, et cetera.
	But what they don't understand is they're not understanding the mechanics or what in actual fact is a spiritual gift given by whatever you believe, God, the Holy Spirit or anything else.
	And it doesn't, you know, what we do as mediums or as spiritual people, that everybody has the same gift as I do.
	And I don't even really like using the term gift, but we all have an ability.
	And I have a saying that I say to people that just because you can sing doesn't mean you can sing, but everybody can hold a no.
	Okay?
	So we all have that.
	Now, the Catholic Church does actually recognize spiritual gifts.
	So there's a little bit of a two-facedness about that there.
	Because even back in the past, they'll recognize the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
	And even if you go through the biblical teachings and go past from even before the Bible actually came out, even before when it was the Dadachi, you can actually recognize that clear division.
	We are not doing witchcraft and we are not conjuring and we are not doing anything.
	We are utilizing gifts that are given, tools of the Spirit that were given by the Creator.
	And so that's where there's a really misunderstanding and a great imbalance.
	And one of the greatest things that I hope to achieve in my lifetime is to build a bridge between religion and what we do.
	Well, you did that in your early life in a way, didn't you?
	Because you said you were following a pretty religious path early on.
	And something must have changed to put you on this path.
	Yeah, the experiences that I had, and even from my early teachings and what I was being taught by the Catholic Church, in my own intuition and seeing things that I seen, knowing things that I knew in my heart, if you like, the clear cognizant side of me, it didn't sit with me.
	And a lot of people will say, oh, I was a medium since I was a child and that's kind of the going statement.
	But I can't say that.
	I can say that I had spiritual awareness.
	I had spiritual abilities.
	I was probably a lot older than my youth.
	But my real spiritual life didn't really happen until after my father passed.
	And that was later on in life.
	And even though I had many experiences, I still had that religious foundation.
	It's not until things happen later in life that you start to realize that your path has been guided in a different way.
	And I think that's what the culmination that kind of brought me to those experiences and then change.
	And it never, you know, it wasn't well accepted with my family.
	Being a medium and taking up this burden was never really, it never really went down well.
	And what would look, you know, I've lost my parents.
	My listeners know that.
	Losing parents, Losing a parent is a very traumatic and sometimes formative thing.
	So, what was it that happened after the death of your dad to make you believe that you're a medium and that you can communicate if one exists with a realm beyond this?
	Well, that was really quite strange.
	My father actually appeared to me I was at the lowest point that I was, I hadn't really grieved my father properly because we didn't have a great relationship and I hadn't really grieved for him.
	And then there was a point in my life where I was really kind of hitting that downward spiral.
	And he appeared to me by the side of my television in my apartment, and it frightened the living Daleks out of me.
	You say he appeared to you.
	I mean, was he, did he look as physically real as I do now?
	Absolutely.
	He actually appeared to me objectively, very quickly.
	I wasn't sleeping.
	I was wide awake.
	I was sitting on my couch, and it just, it built up, and it built up in front of me.
	This mist built up in front of me, and my father appeared.
	There was no communication.
	There was no words.
	He looked a lot younger than he did when he passed.
	There was just, and all he did was smile.
	He just smiled at me.
	And it wasn't like I had this amazing knowing.
	And it wasn't like, you know, everything in the world opened up for me then.
	I have to be honest, it frightened 11 days out of me.
	They out of me because, you know, my father was dead.
	What was he doing?
	Apparently, like this, you know, that kind of shocked me a little bit.
	So that was a bit of an awakening then.
	And that's when I started looking into things a bit more seriously.
	When you say looking into things a bit more seriously, you know, it's one thing to read up and find out about something, but you actually became a conduit.
	Yeah, I started studying.
	I went to spiritualist church.
	I met a lot of people in the spiritualist church.
	I learned a lot more about it.
	I studied as much as I possibly could.
	I continued to study more on religions and healing and cultures.
	And I met my wife.
	My wife ran, well, she wasn't my wife at the time, but I met my wife now.
	And she was running her own church.
	And then I started studying with her.
	And I have to say that my wife made me the medium that I am today.
	My wife took a bit of coal and found the diamond inside of it.
	So I owe everything to my wife, to Joanne.
	Joanne is a phenomenal healer and she does a lot of healing with people and she's very, very passionate.
	But she also ran the church and she brought out the professional, the mediumship and me.
	And then we both served the churches and we served in our own church and we got married in spiritualist church and our life took off from there.
	But it was almost like when, you know, when you go somewhere and you really feel at home and you've always been searching all your life for something that's missing, it's almost like that final piece of the jigsaw was put into place and I started to understand all of my past and all of my youth and all of my time in the monastery and all the things that I studied.
	I had an unhealthy interest in the paranormal even as a young age.
	One of the first books that I ever read was A Vocation to the Priesthood by Redemptress Publications.
	And then I read books on witchcraft and I wanted to know if there was a good side, I wanted to know a bad side.
	I kind of, you know, as my mother would probably say, had an unhealthy interest in it and was always warned, you know, you shouldn't dabble in these things.
	But, you know, over years and experiences, you learn.
	And I think as long as we have the open-mindedness to be able to accept new paradigms, paradigms, and to not just close our minds off to everything, I think it makes life a little bit easier.
	But my greatest thing, I mean, it's not even just giving readings to people, but my greatest service is to help those suffering.
	If a family comes to me and they're suffering and they're suffering from spiritual problems, the greatest gift that I can give them is to help them to alleviate those problems.
	What do you believe happens when we die?
	Well, when we die, I don't actually believe in death.
	I don't believe that we die.
	It's almost like I take one.
	I would like to liken it to a tortoise in a shell.
	In this life, we are maybe that tortoise and we're in that shell and we can only grow to a certain point.
	But at some point, we have to shed that exoskeleton.
	And I think it's the same with a butterfly and a chrysalis.
	We have an element of growth and spiritual growth.
	And I think what we do is in death, we shed off the exoskeleton and we are able to move into the dimensions of real divinity and we cross over to another realm, another spirit world, another life.
	And so even in that, you know, we can't think that everything in the garden is rosy.
	You know, it doesn't mean that if you were a bad person on this life, that you're going to be an absolutely good person on the next life.
	You know, you could still be as negative.
	So I think you take your lessons, your vibration, everything with you.
	And I think death is a truth of life.
	It's a constant.
	But it's a shedding off of that exoskeleton to move on to that next plane, that next level of growth.
	Why doesn't everybody come back or make their presence Felt in this realm after they've crossed over to, if it exists, another realm.
	There are so many people who've been involved in psychic research or been mediums themselves who haven't come back, and they're the very people you would have expected to come back.
	How come most people don't?
	Do you know what?
	I have a theory on this because if you study a lot of the mediumship things or even physical mediumship and seances, this always seems to be famous people that come back this week.
	And I'm always of the opinion, well, what about little Joke the Coleman down the road that maybe wants to show himself to see his life?
	I believe that everybody has a, we still have a free will on the other side.
	And I know for a fact that our loved ones visit us.
	I know for a fact that people do come and visit us.
	In terms of coming back, if you're talking about reincarnation, you know, that is a completely different subject.
	No, no, no, no, no, I'm really talking about making yourself, your presence felt as a spirit.
	What you would say is a spirit.
	I think they do, Howard.
	And I think what it is, is, how can I explain it?
	It's like when you learn to drive a car, in order to learn to drive that car, you have to learn the laws of the roads and you have to learn the signposts and what they mean in order to help you guide and stick by the rules and the regulations of that.
	And I think what happens is, you know, in my opinion, spirits do come back.
	They do visit us, but many people miss those subtle nuances.
	They miss those signs.
	They haven't understood.
	It's like learning a new language.
	If you decide you want to go and learn French or Spanish, then you're going to get yourself on a course and you're going to learn all that French and Spanish and you're going to learn to communicate in that language.
	Well, the spirit world is another language.
	It's just that when they go over, they probably do.
	I mean, there's many instances that I know of loved ones coming back, but the people that say that they miss them or they don't hear from them or they don't come back, I think what it is is they just haven't learned that language.
	They just haven't learned to recognize the signs of their loved ones in visitation or that happening.
	I think the signs are all around us, but people miss them.
	It's like driving down and you miss the left tongue because you haven't seen it.
	Yeah, no, I can completely understand where you're coming from on that.
	In the book, and I'm going to quote from it now, you say afterlife communication has been popularized in the media so much that many potentially gifted but underdeveloped individuals hang their shingles without fully understanding the ramifications of careless afterlife communication.
	In other words, I think you're saying here that there are people who think that they've achieved it, but they don't realize the risks that they're running.
	That's partly what the book is about.
	Am I right in the interpretation there?
	Yes, actually, Howard, you are right.
	Yeah, because there is a, I mean, it was almost like, well, yeah, we know this woman or this man, and he's kind of, he lives in this area, and you had to really, they were only known by reputation.
	There was not, it was very kind of not heard about.
	Nowadays, it's on every street corner.
	Everybody's a medium.
	And in fact, in America, I can tell you right now, I mean, I've gone into little stores and I've, you know, I've, people, even lawyers and God knows what else, they'll say, oh, you're a medium.
	I'm a medium as well.
	Everybody's a medium.
	And they don't really understand it.
	And they don't really understand the mechanics of mediumship or even the dangers of it.
	And so many people are going to be able to do that.
	But in the book, you say that everybody has the potential to develop this.
	But what you also seem to be saying, and I don't want to put words into your mouth, I'm going to let you say it.
	But what you seem to be saying is that there are many people like the people you meet every day who say, oh, yes, I'm a medium too, but they don't realize that they are going into something that it may be enlightening, but it could also pull them down.
	Absolutely.
	I've known a lot of people where it's caused more problems than it is.
	I've actually had many mediums contact me even since the book came out and said, I've had experiences, but I never wanted to speak about it.
	I'm so glad that you brought out the book.
	Can I tell you my story?
	Can you help me understand it?
	Please don't mention it to anybody because I don't want to be looked at in a bad light.
	And there's a lot of people that will start to try and study mediumship and they don't.
	Here's the thing.
	I say in the book as well about guides, you know, too many people when they start their journey learning mediumship, they just accept any guide, anybody who purports to be a guide or a spirit guide or a mentor and they just accept them unequivocally without questioning.
	And that is very dangerous.
	And also, they don't, you know, you have to, like I said before, you have to understand your enemy.
	You don't know by your desire to communicate.
	And actually, we'll go on, we'll actually go on to the Ouija board in a minute.
	But the desire to communicate can be enough to cause you issues if you're not readily prepared.
	Because we also got to remember, let's just say, for instance, there is a demonic presence in a place and it's starting to put its wiles, its wits up against you.
	Don't you think that demonic presence, whether you believe it in it or not, is not a formed being.
	It is a spiritual force.
	But that spiritual force has a high level.
	It's an intelligent force.
	It's beyond your intelligence.
	It's beyond any it's limited from divine law, but it's beyond your limitations.
	And you need to understand that, that, you know, you could be opening up a Pandora box full of problems if you just want to go into places and start communicating and opening yourself up to things.
	What you've just said then, the best argument for most of us leaving this stuff alone.
	I would say it's not something you should choose to do through ego.
	This is Something that you're called to service upon.
	You know, the side of things that I deal with in the negative aspect of things, Howard, I never wanted it.
	It's not something I went out to try and achieve.
	It just so happened.
	I don't advertise for cases.
	People hear about me and they come to me and I help them.
	And I've never asked for it.
	And I've had my negative experiences myself.
	I've experienced terrible things.
	Like what?
	Can you give me an example?
	Well, put it this way.
	I'll tell you one thing now.
	The battle for your soul is not held within the ethers of the earth.
	It is held within the psychology of the mind.
	And demonic, for instance, when someone goes in and says, you know, there's a demon here, I mean, that's 99% there isn't.
	The mechanics of, or understanding the modus operandi of a demoniacal spirit, will attack and subjugate and try to control the mind.
	And someone who is open, I mean, I've had physical things that have happened to me, but mainly the warfare is in the mind.
	I remember I was going through a case at one point that was really bad.
	It was to do with witchcraft.
	And it was quite bad.
	And I wasn't sleeping and I couldn't really eat.
	And I was going through a really terrible time.
	My mind was a constant barrage of negativity.
	I wasn't suffering any mental breakdown or anything.
	But I'll never forget being on my knees and praying at very early hours in the morning, crying out to God to take away the suffering that I was getting in my mind constantly.
	And I know that I was being attacked.
	And that took a lot of strength and a lot of power to try and get through that gauntlet.
	And you're sure that you weren't just having mental issues, like which a lot of us, including me, have been through at times, depression, that kind of thing.
	Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
	I'm not a depressive person.
	It's not mental issues because you know that it's outside of yourself.
	And I've witnessed the phenomena.
	I've had on recently, and I will be careful what I say, but recently I had an episode where I was woken and shaking in the middle of the night and I heard guttural, growling, you know, sounds outside of me, you know, while I was awake.
	And I've witnessed things.
	I've seen levitation.
	I've seen a lot of it and I've seen people that are suffering with it.
	And I know I can discern.
	I think my ability is in discerning between what is negative and what is real.
	But these negative things, John, are they finding you, or because of the work you say that you do, are you finding them?
	If you know what I'm coming from on this.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Well, here's the thing.
	I know for a fact that I will be a target.
	And the reason I will be a target is because I'm trying to teach people to recognize the negative aspects of things or the demoniacal mechanics and how to deal with them.
	So anything like that, they're going to target me.
	But also the interesting thing is, and this is really strange, before, if I get a case that is, and I get a lot of people contacting me, and 99% of the time, there's really nothing to it.
	But if I get a case that warrants something that is going to be probably quite hard going, I dream about it three days beforehand.
	Three days always.
	I always dream about it three days beforehand.
	Really?
	Which is really strange.
	And when you say you dream about it, what do you get a picture of what the people are going through who think that they've been possessed or whatever?
	Yes, I do.
	I kind of see it.
	I see the issues.
	And I also get negative dreams where I would be being attacked or I'm witnessing someone potentially being possessed.
	And I know that then something's coming up.
	And I had a case recently where I dreamt three days before it.
	And then on the third day, I actually received the communication for help.
	Now, here's the thing.
	When someone approaches me for help, I don't go in with woo-woo sticks and sage incense.
	And if there's a serious issue, then I would look at bringing in professional psychologists.
	I would look at bringing in religious people.
	I don't go in there like a lot of psychics or mediums and brandishing incense and abalone shells and running around doing incantations because I know that the adversary is a lot more intelligent than I am.
	And those kind of things are just for clearing energies.
	They don't really work against something really bad.
	So you say that you get the psychologists in first, which is the way that a lot of the, can I call them professionals do this, but they do it psychologically first.
	And then they call in, as you said, spiritual people.
	Are you talking exorcists here?
	I would, yes, I would call upon exorcists, but it would mainly be from their religious faith or something like that.
	But here's the thing as well, and I want people to understand the only weapon that you really have against anything really negative is spiritual divine power.
	And it's not you, the priest, or anybody that does the work.
	It's divinity.
	It's divine power.
	And it's prayer.
	Really what it is.
	If you look at even all the cases in history, if we look back to Anna Eklund, if we look back to Robbie Meinheim, you know, the exorcist, if we look back to some of the other cases, South Africa, Ann Lise Michel in 1974, we look at all those cases.
	Even all these exorcisms are all prayers.
	It's all spiritual prayer.
	It's prayer.
	That is what really defeats anything that's nefarious.
	Which brings me to this.
	And before I forget it, so forgive me for interrupting.
	It's been a long day and I'm going to forget this.
	So you're saying that the natural order of things, are you?
	Is that good will always trump Evil.
	Yeah.
	Because you have to understand that even though, okay, I'm going to go back to people might, you know, we'll go back to the Great War and it says in the Bible, whether you believe in it or not is another thing.
	But if we just go back to the fact that malevolent force exists, then a creative force created everything, including the malevolent force.
	But did God or did spirit or whatever you believe in and their infinite wisdom decide to create an evil force?
	No, I don't think so.
	There is this element of free will and there was, you know, as angelic beings of free will and they decided to, you know, some decided to go with the good and some decided to go with the bad.
	But the reality is, is that even demonic forces are limited.
	They are limited in the scope of what they can do upon this plane by divine law, by divine law and divine order.
	And so everything that is created by divinity is under a divine law.
	And so is restricted by divine law.
	But they have a lot, like I said, they have a lot more intelligence than what we have.
	And the other thing is if something's going to happen to someone and they're under kind of spiritual oppression, it doesn't necessarily actually happen where things start floating around in the house and things smash like poltergeist activity.
	It can be very, very, very subtle over an incredibly long period of time.
	And it will start to build and build because the idea is that a negative spirit is looking to break down the will of the individual.
	Now, a demonic spirit cannot just take anybody's soul because it's not, you know, your soul is not yours to give away.
	It belongs to divine creators.
	And does the subject of this, in some ways, do they always have to be complicit?
	In other words, you know, if they accept it, if they accept it as something that is scary and is around them, then it'll get more of a hold of them.
	Whereas if they get a grip on themselves and they deny it, they're going to be one step down the road to fighting it.
	Yes, it can be harder.
	I think there's two camps.
	There's the camp where you have the case where people are in black magic or they are in satanic cults and they will only give themselves.
	And that's really, you're dealing with something there that is really dangerous.
	But then you have people that are, their will is a lot less and they're under oppression a lot easier.
	But when you have the fight, when you start to understand it and you can start to fight it, it's a lot harder for that spiritual force to gain that control.
	So having the knowledge and having an understanding, albeit even a basic understanding, and understanding the power of prayer is one more part of the armor that you can put on to protect yourself.
	But other things in the world can reduce that.
	I mean, drugs and all that kind of stuff can reduce that energy around you, can make yourself open to possible infestation.
	I believe a lot of murders that are created, there's a lot to be said for obsessive, what I like to call is obsessive possession, where people that are maybe lower in vibration can be influenced, and so they can be influenced to carry out atrocities and heinous crimes.
	What a terrible thought.
	You mentioned Ouija boards, and I don't want to let that point go away.
	There are people I know, and you may well be aware of them too, who are very grounded people.
	Are you still there?
	No, we lost you.
	That just dropped really strange.
	Isn't that weird?
	We just have to explain to my listener here that as soon as I mentioned Ouija boards, I'm sure it's nothing, but the line dropped at that point.
	And yet, you know, we just need to remind our listener that you are in your car doing this because of poor broadband in the area that you're in.
	I know that you're going to be moving to a place with better broadband.
	And it's held up perfectly.
	It's been rock solid for 45 minutes.
	And I talked about Ouija boards, and that's what happened.
	There are people who are very grounded about using these things.
	And, you know, they do it in a very professional kind of way.
	I personally wouldn't get involved with them.
	And I've said it many times before.
	But there are a lot of people who say that they're experts who say that those who dabble in Ouija boards are connecting to the lowest possible kinds of entities.
	Yeah, listen, a Ouija board in itself actually holds no inherent power.
	It is the mass consciousness of the Ouija board and the intention behind it.
	I mean, you can make a Ouija board out of anything.
	I actually went into a bookstore yesterday, Bands and Novels, and I saw a spirit board for sale for kids.
	I mean, come on, a Ouija board.
	It's crazy.
	Now, maybe 90% of the time, nothing will happen.
	And professionals that are professional mediums might use it and not get anything because they have a certain level of vibration and they'll not experience anything.
	But it's that whole process of intention, the intent to communicate, the intent to use that board to invite a presence, a spirit presence, is all that is needed.
	It's not necessarily the board, but the board in itself holds a really mass consciousness with it.
	And any type of invitation can cause it.
	A lot is to do because they don't have the power Of discernment.
	People that are utilizing the boards don't necessarily know how to discern.
	Discernment is not something you learn from a book, and discernment is not something that you can just go and learn on a course.
	Discernment is something that you learn over, you know, over your life and over your spiritual growth and your divinity, and also being gifted on that side of things, I suppose.
	So you said it's about intention.
	So if you've got a bunch of people together who are using one of these things, which I certainly do not recommend for fun, then what happens with the board is what they imbue the board with.
	In other words, they are creating some kind of creative, collective intent.
	And that intent is a dangerous thing.
	And also, let me say this that people don't even think about.
	The vibration that you think you're giving out may not be the vibration that you're giving out.
	Now, that's quite important because a lot of people will say, oh, well, we sit in a seance, so we sit in a circle and we say a prayer and we are automatically covered.
	Well, that might not be the vibration that you're giving out because some people don't even know how to pray.
	Some people don't have the right power behind it.
	You can pray with words or you can pray with your soul.
	What's going to be stronger?
	So in other words, if you go into there thinking, well, you know, I'd be really keen to see something bad, but you're not saying that.
	But if you go in there with that thought, then be careful what you wish for because that's what you're going to get.
	A lot of attraction, absolutely.
	And also, you might be sitting with seven people and three of you might be really good.
	But what happens if that person, the other person you're sitting with, is actually quite sensitive but is of a negative disposition and may already be under some kind of subjugation or may already be lower in their spiritual growth or vibrate what they think they're vibrating at they're not and therefore there's a weakness in the chain and therefore there's a possible entry point of something um and so people you don't you don't recognize you
	know what the vibration of everybody is around you.
	So while you think that you're protected, you actually may not be protected, even if you say a prayer, you know, because sometimes the prayers are only, you know, words that are spoken glibly and don't have any power behind them.
	You know, I remember years and years ago, I was in my 20s, and I have told this story before, so I'm going to keep it short this time.
	I was having not the greatest of times when I was in my early 20s, starting my career, things were not good.
	And somebody recommended that I went to see this woman in North London.
	Can't remember her name, you know, now.
	I can't even remember which place this was.
	I think it was maybe, actually, maybe it was more West.
	Maybe it was more Acton, but whatever.
	I went into the parlor, the front room of this house, and this woman, who was probably about 70, told me to close my eyes, and then she laid hands on my head.
	And during this process, I saw with my closed eyes, a halo of the most brilliant, piercing, shining light, almost spin around my head with my eyes closed.
	And I, you know, I was just a kid.
	I said, afterwards, I said, what was that?
	And she said, there was something there, but it's not there now.
	It was the most, I mean, I never went back for any more of that.
	But it was a bizarre and a bit spooky thing for me.
	It is.
	And one of the things I would say about that, actually, I wouldn't even, for one minute, think that that was nefarious in any way.
	Because one thing, negative spirits are not available to be in the light.
	And if you see an immense, bright, beautiful light around you in your mind, there's a very, very high chance that that's actually not nefarious at all.
	Because a lot of the negative spirits are primarily in darkness.
	And the way that I can explain it is if you go into a dark room and you switch a light on, the light actually transmutes every aspect of darkness.
	But where, if a light exists, like today, it's a beautiful, sunny day, I can't, it's a scientific impossibility for me to bring darkness in and take over that light.
	But that light can take over darkness.
	Right.
	That's a very interesting way of explaining it.
	That is.
	Very simple analogy.
	You told me that there are imposters out there, and that people who think that they've connected with a guide may have connected with something else.
	You know, over the Christmas holiday, I was doing some radio shifts.
	And one of the people I interviewed on the radio was a woman who got into the newspapers in the UK.
	She's from Northern Ireland.
	And she married, she says, the ghost of a 300-year-old pirate.
	And the story went that she wanted to be rid of this person that she was legally married to, apparently, she could do this, because she had discovered that he wasn't what he appeared to be, and that he seemed to be draining her of energy.
	And he was using her from that point of view.
	It was a most bizarre story, and she sounded incredibly sincere about it.
	But if ever there was an example of something being an imposter and not what they appear to be, maybe this was a case in point.
	Absolutely.
	I would say that's obsession.
	That's getting to the point of obsession.
	I've had a recent chat with a good colleague.
	Actually, Gavin, who actually recommended me to chat with you, him and I recently were talking about the whole spectrophilia kind of thing, and how people are marrying ghosts and having...
	And I don't really buy into that.
	What I do buy into is this is another tactic of a lower form of nefarious entity starting the subjugation, starting the spiritual infestation and the obsession.
	And one of the things, one of the theories, I feel like, that I have, the hypothesis that I have is why make it so blase and out there and one of the things that i think that that does is because why try and decide you know destroy one soul when you can pull in hundreds of thousands of souls it's almost like If we get so many people to believe in this and this is a great thing to do,
	then all these people will give themselves over to having you know spec, you know, spectral sex with ghosts.
	And to me, that is just a ploy of demonic.
	You know, that's just my opinion.
	And I'm interested to see how these things go.
	I recently had to, I run a grief group, and I actually, from anybody who buys my book can also go and join my Facebook Deadly Departed group, where I allow people to ask questions, and I teach video lessons to them and answer the questions.
	I give those teachings over to people to help them.
	But I also have a grief group where people are grieving, and I don't allow mediums in there to give readings or anything.
	This is just a support group for people who are suffering that we give them a voice and we try and comfort them and we try to get them to understand the afterlife.
	But I've had people in there that I've, well, I'll just say one person that I've had to remove, and the reason I had to remove them is because I started to recognize that there was an obsessive force beginning to happen and that utilizing not necessarily a Ouija board, but even utilizing EVP and things like that is just, it's like a flag, a target saying, come and get me.
	And I can see the pattern already.
	And so I removed them because I don't want that cancer to spread to others who are suffering in desperate need to speak to their loved ones and start to utilize tools like that that bring in negative experiences.
	And so many people have it.
	So many people.
	So we come back to the point at the beginning and there are so many warnings.
	And there are so many red flags in your book to people that you've got to be careful about this.
	For the vast majority of people, it really is better not to go there.
	No, it's better to seek out the help of a real professional.
	And I have to say, you know, I mean, when people ask me to help them, I know there's people out there that will do blessings and they charge people money for helping them through spiritual problems.
	And I don't do that because I don't, if someone's having a potential possession or they're having a spiritual issue in their home or anything like that, then I do whatever I can to help them and train them.
	If I've read rightly, you have a separate career anyway, don't you?
	I actually run, yeah, I'm a marketing consultant.
	I actually market.
	I market in the legal industry and other industries.
	And if I do sittings for people, you know, if I do sittings for people who are grieving, I'm also the president of a 501c3 charity, an organization that we're building for education and research.
	Most of that goes to the charity to help us develop and grow and fund it.
	But my passion is to serve people who are suffering and to allay their suffering in any way, whether that be grief or whether it be people who are really suffering from spiritual problems, is to come to their aid when they need it.
	And don't get me wrong, there are so many people that think they've got spiritual problems and they haven't.
	They just don't take responsibility for their life.
	And they would rather say it's a paranormal problem rather than taking responsibility.
	And we must understand that as well.
	There's a lot of what I like to call, you know, the pseudo-possessions where they think they're possessed or they think they're haunted and they're not.
	It's just they won't take responsibility for their lives.
	Well, you sound like a very down-to-earth medium, Jock.
	Finally here.
	What is the scale?
	This is a very unfair question, but I'm going to ask it anyway.
	What's the scariest thing that you have experienced yourself?
	The scariest thing that I would say, I'm not going to go over phenomenas and stuff like that, but I would have to say the problems that you have within being attacked within your own mind is probably the scariest.
	And anyone who has ever gone through any problems, I had scratches that happened on my leg after a situation when I was away.
	And I kind of understand that as part and parcel of what happens.
	And I've had the voices and I've been threatened and sworn at.
	But I think the scariest thing is not any of the objective phenomena or anything that I've witnessed or reported on, but is actually what can happen in your own mind.
	And I think the scariest thing in anybody's career, on anybody's life, is to have that fear of losing their own mind.
	It takes a very, I don't want to use the word special individual because that seems really egotistical, but it takes a very different type of individual to be able to resist that problem.
	And I think some of us that are called to this work have to go through it in order to understand what others are going through.
	So it's not the phenomena or the seeing things.
	It is actually what can destroy you from the inside out.
	That's the scariest thing.
	And I think the day that I went on my knees and prayed from my heart and my soul because of what I was experiencing was really the scariest thing that I could say, that I've would never witness.
	And here's the other thing.
	When a lot of people say that they've actually experienced oppression or that they've experienced these things, they haven't.
	And it's kind of born of maybe ego and things like that because it is not something you would wish on your worst enemy and it's not something that will ever leave you.
	It is there in your mind as a constant reminder and you are constantly vigilant.
	And anybody, even if you speak to Bob Crammer, which I hope you do, he's constantly vigilant.
	He's constantly in his own mind.
	You have to be aware and you'll never forget it.
	It scars you for life.
	Wow.
	Well, I think we've only scratched the surface literally of your book here.
	The book is called Deadly Departed Do's, Don'ts and Dangers of Afterlife Communication.
	Some salutary tales there.
	Jock, thank you very much.
	Once again, I think it's amazing that you were able to do this on a mobile connection in your car.
	That's the biggest miracle Of the lot.
	Even though we got cut off, and I have to say, the signal's great.
	I can't believe that happened.
	But yeah, it's been brilliant.
	I've thoroughly enjoyed speaking to you, Howard.
	I hope that people can, if they decide to pick up my book and read it, that one of the things to realize is I don't write for money.
	I write to educate and help heal.
	And that's the only reason.
	And if someone gets some good out of it and it helps to turn their life around, then I've done my job.
	And if anybody's out there that has problems and they're scared, they're frightened or they feel subjugated, then reach out to me because I'll do whatever I possibly can to help.
	Wow.
	Well, that is a big statement.
	Jock, thank you very much indeed.
	I hope we talk again and I wish you a good day in North Carolina in your car.
	Absolutely.
	Thank you, Howard.
	I can speak to you soon.
	God bless, my friend.
	Have a wonderful day.
	You too.
	Thank you.
	Bye-bye.
	You've been hearing Jock Brokas.
	The book is called Deadly Departed, The Do's and Don'ts and Dangers of Afterlife Communication.
	Your thoughts about this show, what you thought of it, and maybe your guest suggestions for future shows, always gratefully received here.
	I love to hear from you.
	Whichever part of the world you're in, please remember when you get in touch to tell me who you are, where you are, and of course, how you use this show.
	That information is really interesting and useful for me to know.
	And I'm not keeping files and dossiers on you.
	You know, it's not like the KGB or the FBI or something.
	I'm just interested to know for the future development of this show.
	Your thoughts and suggestions are always welcome here.
	And as I said at the top of the show, a lot of you have emailed over the holiday period and into 2019.
	And I am very, very grateful.
	Please know that unlike a lot of the mainstream media, I get to personally see all of your emails.
	And if your email requires, or even replies, requires a personal response, then of course it gets one.
	Thank you very much if you've taken the time and the trouble to be in touch from whichever part of the world you're in.
	So until next we meet, my name is Howard Hughes.
	This has been The Unexplained Online and please stay safe.
	Please stay calm.
	And above all, please stay in touch.
	Thank you very much.
	Take care.

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