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Dec. 9, 2018 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes
01:06:25
Edition 373 - Gavin G. L. Davies

A chilling conversation about what Gavin Davies claims are ultra-terrifying events at a house in West Wales...

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Across the UK, across continental North America and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes and this is The Unexplained.
Thank you very much for being part of my show.
If you've emailed recently, thank you very much indeed.
And if your email requires a response, then please know that it will get one.
And also know that I see each and every email that comes in as it comes in.
And, you know, not a lot of the mainstream media can do that.
And you know that we've been going for 15 years next year, which is an astonishing thing on radio and online, various places we've been on.
And, you know, it's just amazing how somebody can have an idea and make it happen.
It's taken a certain amount of work over those years, I have to say.
No shout outs on this edition.
I will do some in a later edition.
But just to say, I got two emails from Australia in the last few days.
One from a guy called Christian, driving a bus.
That's what he does for a living in the outback of Australia between remote Aboriginal settlements.
And he listens to this show as he's driving the bus.
And Christian, if you're listening right now, your email meant an awful lot to me.
And it created for me a mental picture of you there in all of the dust with the sun setting and so far away from here.
It's just amazing.
And to think that my show is reaching you in the southern hemisphere, in the output, is remarkable.
Another listener, Andrew in Sydney, Australia, who's emailed before, Andrew, good to hear from you.
And you made some comments about the show with Reed Summers.
You were not, shall we say, you were not entirely convinced by him, but you like the show.
Thank you very much indeed.
And good to hear from you.
I think we're getting a bit of a, I won't say fan club, but we're getting a bit of a listener base in Australia.
I must, before my time is done, get back to Australia.
You know, I want to see Perth again, and I want to go across.
If there's a way of going right across, and I think you can get a train across Australia, I would long, before my time here on this plane is done, to be able to do that journey across from Perth and across to Sydney.
Maybe one day and Melbourne.
I'd love to do that.
One of these days.
It's not just going to be fantasy.
I will do it.
Okay.
Thank you very much to Adam Cornwell, my webmaster at Creative Hotspot in Liverpool for his hard work on the show as usual.
And the guest on this edition.
This is again controversial.
It is a chilling story of haunting that Gavin Davis, who's written a book, This All Happened, he says, in Haverford West, West Wales, beautiful area that I know very well.
It is, how do you describe it?
Is it demonic possession of a house?
Is it something weird?
Or is it just something that somebody's made up?
You will have to determine on the basis of the conversation that you're about to hear.
But I have to say, as a book that Gavin has written about this, it is an astonishing story.
And even if it wasn't true, it would make the greatest screenplay.
You know, it's a very creative thing.
But it's an astonishing story.
Gavin says it happened to him and it's happened to other people, as you will hear, who lived in that house.
So I want you to hear that.
There are aspects of the story that you may find difficult to take on board, including the ghost sex aspect of it.
So if you are disturbed by these things, then maybe this is not the show for you.
But please bear that in mind when you hear that.
And, you know, I have to be fair and say that before we do that.
But I think you will find it a fascinating story.
So that's that.
Theunexplained.tv, my website.
If you want to get in touch with me, you can do it through the site.
If you want to make a donation to this work, you can also do that through the website, theunexplained.tv.
And if you have made a donation recently, thank you very, very much for that.
All right, let's get to West Wales.
And Gavin Davis is there.
We're going to talk about a very, very disturbing case indeed.
Gavin, thank you very much for coming on my show.
Thank you very much, Howard.
It is such an honor, privilege to finally speak to you.
You have no idea what a fan I am.
Seriously, I am so humbled.
I am so humbled.
Thank you so much for your time.
You're an amazing guy.
What am I supposed to say after that, then?
That's so kind of you.
You're a hero to me.
I've grown up, you know, not that, you know, I'm probably about the same age as you, but I kind of like, you know, I've grown up listening to you and all the various platforms you're on.
My father's a huge fan.
And I used to, you know, before digital, you know, used to do these kinds of shows.
And it was very difficult to get that kind of information back then.
You know what I mean?
Pre- And listen, we're not talking about a long time ago.
When I launched The Unexplained on Talk Sport, as it was, which was an AM station, it still is an AM station all over the country.
This was 2004.
I launched that show and it ran there until 2006.
It was AM.
We didn't quite have the availability and access to information over here in the UK that perhaps they had in the United States.
So it was pioneering stuff back then.
And I was getting all sorts of people on there who were big names in their field.
So it was exciting.
And I was getting listener email at that time from people who were hearing the show on AM in Germany and France and Spain.
They were listening on a Saturday night.
It was a big thing.
Now, we're on the podcast now.
So listen, you're going to have to help me out here because there are so many strands to what we're about to talk about that it's very hard to know where to begin.
And in a way, I've got to confess this.
In your case, doing a journalist speed read of your book that we'll be talking about and about this particular house in Haverford West in West Wales, doing a journalist speed read is not the way to do it with this.
You need to read every single word on every single page, which I haven't done.
I've done the speed read of it.
And it's such a nicely written book, that's not really fair to it.
So what we'll say to people is, when you've heard this conversation, try and get hold of the book and read the way that it's written.
Just as a story, it'll pull you in.
Now, if I haven't sold your book for you now, God knows what will.
I can go now.
Thank you very much.
Thank you, Howard.
No, no, it is.
It's quite.
What I've done is with the book, okay, is I've created a unique style which I use in my books, and it's an interview style because a lot of books are used like a narrative.
So they tell it like a fictionalized story.
I don't believe in that.
Like a reporter or a journalist, I sit down with my subjects and I interview them and I cross-examine them and I interview them together and separate until eventually you're left with the accurate information as close as it's going to be.
And that's what I present.
So Haunted Horror at the Halford West is in three parts, okay?
It's all in one book.
The first one is about people who lived in a profoundly prolific, surreal haunted house from 1989 to 1991.
And then that's followed with my own experience of living in the same house in 2002, which was released on Kindle in 2013 as A Most Haunted House.
You don't need to read A Most Haunted House because it's included and it has a brand new edit.
Finally, the third section is, because there's going to be lots of skeptics out there going, well, you know, ghosts don't exist.
What I've done is I've created a summary of explanations from the mundane, from things like gas to tetra technology to toxic mold syndrome.
I've got them here.
There's, I mean, we'll get into it, but there's toxic mold syndrome, terrestrial trunked radio, infrasound.
You do a very good job of summarizing the sorts of explanations that experts come up with for phenomena like this.
Now, before we proceed, don't forget, of course, as we said before we started recording this, to be intimate with that microphone so we don't get the sound.
I don't know if it sounds to me as if the room that you're in is like some big cavern, which is very appropriate for the stuff we'll be talking about.
It is a very large haunted house I'm living in.
It's a very old and very, very large room.
So I'm a bit closer to the microphone.
Is that better?
Yes, you are.
That's good.
Okay, I won't move now.
I won't move.
Not even an inch until we finish this.
All right.
Now, my first thought about this is this guy is a great writer of fiction.
This can't be true, but my God, he can write.
Swear to me that this is all true.
My account in Most Haunted House is 90% true.
90%?
90%.
The reason I have to say 90% is because I had to change the names and a lot of the details that people could track back to the house.
The house isn't mine.
I lost the house.
It is owned by someone else and they're threatened to sue me.
So I had to be very, very careful to put people off track.
So everything you read in that book is 90% true, okay?
I don't personally believe it's very sensationalized.
In fact, it's quite mundane because it's about people breaking up during a haunting and you're left with, was it the haunting that caused the breakup or was it the psychological trauma that made there be a perception of a haunting that everything seemed worse?
I believe basically something was pulling them apart from what I read.
And you have to deduce as the reader whether the something pulling them apart was mostly them and these things happen or was mostly to do with the phenomena that they were experiencing.
Yeah, and in the Most Haunted House, I tried to make the rationale fit because I suffered severe mental trauma.
I became dependent to alcohol, suffered severe depression.
And on one unfortunate night, I succumbed to the depression and alcoholism and try to take my own life, which is insane.
And this you are remarkably candid about.
Again, we'll get into that, but you are remarkably candid about your own experience in this book.
You know, you don't put a veil over it.
I think it's important that we're in a new world now.
Like me and you, Howard, we are from a generation where if we said we were feeling down or depressed, people said, what are you, you know, man up and what are you to be depressed about?
And in my own way, I thought this would encourage people to be honest about their own mental maladies and afflictions and depression and anxiety.
And I thought it was very important that people see that and they read that.
And now people say, well, you know, how could a ghost, how could a haunting make someone depressed?
Well, that's what I'm exploring in this book.
Now, you asked me if it was true.
Now, the people who lived in the house from 1989 to 1991, I interviewed them.
I wasn't there.
I'm not going to swear in my life it was true, but I spent two years with them.
They haven't taken any royalties from the book.
They've remained anonymous.
They haven't put their names forward.
And they just wanted the same thing I wanted, which was a cathartic experience to just talk about what happened to them because it was terrifying.
And if anyone out there has lived within a haunting, it's not all Patrick Swayze ghost and Potter's wheels and loving grandma spirits at the end of the bed.
This haunting is more, I know it sounds like mad hyperbol, but it is more surreal and more terrifying than anything you'll see on TV or in a film.
These people explain it to you.
I interview them.
I find out what their thought processes were, what their dreams were, how they were reacting to each other.
And when you get to the nuts and bolts of it, it's terrifying.
It is absolutely terrifying what happened to them.
I was lucky, you know, I got away with 10 years of depression and dependency and suicidal tendencies.
And I came through that and I am blessed now that I am on a mission to inspire and motivate and I want to become a mental health advocate.
Okay, while I deal with my own issues.
But what those people went through in 1989 to 1991 is horrendous, absolutely terrifying.
Well, look, the account looks very credible.
And the way that you dissect the way that they fall apart as a couple in there, you know, looks incredibly real to life.
And I can certainly identify with it in cases and stories of people who haven't been involved in hauntings.
You know, it just reads credibly.
So, okay, I think we need to block this out and break this down.
We need to get your story of living in that house, because the way that I understand this works is that you lived in the house, you had all kinds of problems and issues there, for reasons that you will tell me, and then subsequently you met some people who'd lived there before you, and they told you their story.
Have I got that right?
That's correct.
Now, in 2002, I bought the house with my then partner.
Blissful beginnings, madly in love.
Life had been sweet.
We bought the house.
Three months later, we were over.
There had been an affair, not on my part.
I was an alcoholic, and everything had quickly decayed and broken down.
Now, it all started very mundane, you know, little things, you know, almost like a residual haunting, doors opening, creaking, cold spots.
Just usual trappings you get with most hauntings.
Nothing particularly exciting.
And then slowly that wedge began to be created, things going missing, which was causing stress and arguments.
And then little things started to become bigger things.
We started seeing things from the peripheral.
We started seeing like this small figure and that would make its way across the room.
And it all built and built and built.
And the most haunted house, which is part of haunted horror of Hafford West, it's quite a hard book to say actually, it all details.
But it wasn't just exclusive to us, which made it very difficult to deal with because our next door neighbours said our houses used to be one.
And they had part of the haunting in their house.
And they said we had what they called the children and the old lady.
And they had a seven-fat entity called the Angry Man.
Now, one night, if anyone's ever been the victim of a burglary or a home invasion, it's absolutely terrifying.
And one night, me and my girlfriend were in bed and we heard the front window get kicked in.
And we heard very heavy footsteps, footfall in the house, things being tossed around, cupboards open, slammed, doors, things breaking.
And it was terrifying.
These things happen very, very quickly.
So I quickly jumped against the door and you could hear this movement downstairs.
Someone ran up the stairs and pushed the door and I felt the weight against me.
And we're not Americans.
We don't have guns and all that crazy stuff.
And we had a mobile phone, which we hadn't charged.
And our main house phone was downstairs.
And we were just praying that someone had heard the, it was so loud that we just prayed that someone had heard it and was calling the police or getting help.
So I heard the footsteps running down the stairs and then there was silence.
And my immediate thought was to put my girlfriend through the skylight to get onto the roof because it was during a time when there was lots of home invasions and burglaries where people were being tortured for PIN numbers and they were being raped and burnt and it was terrifying.
In Haverford West.
Not in Haverford West, but just anywhere, just like in the main cities.
Because I was going to say, those sorts of things tend not to happen as far as I'm aware.
In West Wales, it's fairly peaceful.
But there you are, effectively then under siege, you say.
Under siege.
And I'm in my box of shorts.
I've got a mug as a weapon.
I'm not Bruce Williams.
I'm five foot six.
Back then I was about 10 stone soaking wet.
And just to very quickly say that while I was doing research for the book, I actually included stuff about Pembrokeshire's first serial killer, who was a guy.
Do you remember the show Bullseye?
Alan?
Do you remember Jim Bowen?
We have to explain to listeners in the US and in other parts of the world, there was a show that was fronted by a very nice comedian called Jim Bowen, who had a catchphrase.
Well, people said it was his catchphrase.
He said he never said super smashing great.
But it was where people played darts, which is a game that people play in pubs in the UK, and they did it for prizes.
So, okay, that's Bullseye.
Yeah, and the serial killer from Pembrokeshire was on Bullseye.
And he was a prolific.
He murdered about, you know, four or five people, as far as we know.
He raped people at gunpoint.
He was just like a really bad egg.
And the house I'm in now is linked to that man.
So, oh, you know, that's creepy in itself.
Believe it or not, even though.
So, in fact, you did have those things happening there.
I'm saying it's this lovely, tranquil, peaceful place.
Yeah, we had, you know, on the coastal path, he murdered two people, two visitors, two holidaymakers.
He just gunned down.
It was really, really strange story.
And it's kind of like touched upon in the book, but it wasn't relevant to the whole thing.
So now I understand.
There you are, effectively under siege.
You think somebody's kicked, did you say kicked a door in or kicked a window in?
Kicked the front window in.
Kicked the front window.
Terrorist house.
They've kicked the window in.
So there's silence.
I venture out, go downstairs, and I'm shouting all kinds of stuff like, you know, the police are on the way and, you know, blah, blah, blah, you know, just terrified.
And I'm going down those stairs was the most terrifying moment of my life.
Just expecting a hand to grab you or see a shadow.
So I went into the living room downstairs, expecting glass everywhere, the curtain billowing in and just a house just wrecked.
And I turned on the light and the house was fine.
The front door was locked from the inside.
The back door was locked from the inside.
The window hadn't been broken.
It was locked.
And the only thing that had happened was that the CDs had been put in a spiral on a carpet and a picture of me and my girlfriend had been put by the door.
And she was horrified.
She kicked the CDs and she just fell to the floor crying because we knew deep down that something had just sent us a very, very powerful message because we tried to bring someone in to cleanse it a few weeks before.
When you say cleanse it, you mean you got an exorcist in?
We got a psychic medium and I'll be honest with you, right?
At that time, I didn't really believe, I wasn't really into it.
I knew there was something happening in the house, but I wasn't necessarily into it.
But it was a case of what harm can it do?
And this woman came and she was saying that there was a vortex and, you know, you've got a big bright light in you and sage in the house and saying all this stuff.
And for two weeks, the house was really, really calm.
And then that happened.
And it was almost as if whatever this thing was was like, how dare you?
You know, how very dare you?
So more things happened.
It tried to set fire to the house.
I left, a broken man.
My girlfriend continued to live there for some time.
She claimed it pulled her out of the bed.
Now, I'd always had an interest in the paranormal.
As I said, I'd been listening to you, Howard, and, you know, James Whale used to do a show.
He actually, I rang up once about black cats, the beasts, and he actually threw me off his show.
Why did he throw you off his show?
I was up in Cardigan, and there'd been a sighting of the beast of the boncalf.
And we had found a dead sheep, and we were kids.
We were like 18, 19, whatever we were at the age.
So we rang up and we were like really sincere and genuine.
And we're like oh my god, we're on the radio.
And he even cut me off.
That was James.
I'm sure there was no malice intended.
That was just James, wasn't it?
And my dad was listening at home.
And the next day he said, why did you upset James Whale?
I said, I didn't.
So I've always been interested in it to some degree.
And my partner had no interest in it whatsoever.
And for her to be frightened and terrified.
But me and her don't even talk.
We are like the ghosts.
If we saw each other in the street, there's no connection there.
We don't even acknowledge each other because do you think that that is because of your incompatibility with her?
And that happens a lot.
Or do you think it was to do with your experience in that house?
One of the things I did was take accountability for my life.
And I will admit that maybe I didn't give her enough attention and I was drinking, okay?
So after that event, I tried to rationalize the events.
And I looked into Tetra Communication, right?
Which was a mobile carrier or a cell device if you're American.
So it was basically in our town, in the middle of Half-Adoest, they created a new cell phone, a mobile phone tower based on Tetra technology, okay?
And Tetra would expand the carrier signal so people have better signal, etc.
And when I did research into that, it turned out that Tetra was a Cold War development that would have been used to demoralize troops, that it would make them feel paranoid, anxious, just kind of demoralize them so that they wouldn't have that will to fight.
It was a Cold War weapon.
And they were using that.
So I was quite happy to couple the idea of the relationship broke together because of it broke up, along with this device was making us believe that all these strange things are happening.
I mean, look, I haven't researched that that you've just talked about, but I would imagine if it was something to do with that, it would affect more than just you.
Well, that's a great thing as well, right?
Okay, because since the Most Haunted House was released, 16 houses within a one mile radius of us have had very similar experiences.
So for me, I try to rationalize this and then say, well, okay, this is what it was.
That's what happened.
And then in 2015, a journalist for Take a Break gave me a call and said, I've read this book.
Can you give me more information?
I felt better.
I was in a really good place in my life.
I was very confident.
And I acknowledged that it was my experience.
And I was the people, you know, I was the person in the book.
And she released that then in Take a Break.
And all these people were like, wow, you know, what an amazing book, one amazing experience.
And literally a few weeks later, I had an email.
And the house, the location of the house has been a closely guarded secret.
I'm under a gag order.
Channel 4 wanted to do some work there.
were turned down for a series.
And this woman— So I'm presuming, and this is all we'll say, that what the owner of the house doesn't want it to get a bad reputation.
Is that what it is?
It's a matter.
They want to sell it, Howard.
They want to sell it.
They want to rent it out.
And that house is continually empty.
It's up for rent.
People go in and they move out, okay?
So this woman emailed me, and not only did she identify the street, which was really worrying, but she identified the house.
I mean, prove she lived in the house between 1989 and 91 and had the experience.
How extraordinary that that should happen.
And of course, that's a big chunk of your book.
Before we go there, though, all we've heard, well, basically all we've heard about your experience there is that it unsettled you and your partner at the time to the extent that your relationship shook apart and you ended up her living there for a while and you going.
And we heard that the CDs were rearranged and a photograph was put by the door.
There must have been more to it than that.
Just give me a quick summary, if you will, of other things that happened.
Yeah, of course.
There was an attic conversion and you would often just hear someone walking across the attic conversion.
There was a stable door and you would hear that being opened.
We had a small figure on the peripheral that you would see walking around the house.
All things that you can kind of try and rationalize, you know, we were in a terraced house.
So even though the attic conversion was separate from any of the other houses, you could say, well, maybe it's sound echoing from someone else, you know.
Then we had some friends staying over and I got really drunk and had a row with my girlfriend and I slept on the sofa and they heard me having a row with an old lady, a very heated argument.
And they weren't sure who I'd let in the house.
Was I on a phone?
What did I have the TV on?
And the guy got up and as he was coming down the stairs, he could hear me pleading with an old lady saying, just leave us alone.
And this woman just screaming at me, shut up, get out, get out of our house.
And as he rounded the corner, he said, I was fast asleep on the sofa and there was no one in the house.
Then we had some children come and stay with us.
And in the book, I've called them Eric and Sam.
They're twins, but they weren't twins.
They were brother and sister.
But just again, to put people off the scent of who they were.
And they stayed in the attic conversion.
And in the morning, they woke up and they were very upset because they said there was someone walking around in the room, you know, like playing with them.
And the thing is, like, I was 27 at the time.
And you don't want to say, there's two things you don't want to say.
Oh, it's okay.
It's the ghost.
Or B, lie and say, oh, it was me.
Because it doesn't look very good a 27-year-old man hiding in the dark with some sleeping kids.
I mean, you know, both ways, it's bad.
Yeah.
And it's just the book, what is different about The Most Haunted House and Horror of Halford West is it's not sensationalized in terms of spinning heads and pea soup.
You very much get to the nitty-gritty of how the people were feeling.
So it goes in depth about their anxieties, their depressions, their emotional feelings, the discord, how everything starts to dissolve, How relationships of within work and friends all start to deteriorate.
So, as I said, I was happy, I had an explanation for that.
I get the email, and the people who lived there in 1989 to 1991, their events, their experience was so horrendous that it made mine look like a trip to Legoland.
It literally, it was so different, yet it was the same.
All right, one question before we get into their story, and you did a lot of interviews with them.
You said you researched them for two years, didn't you?
Yeah, that's correct.
Okay.
You've been very candid and very honest and very open in the book and talking to me here about your own issues, the drinking and the depression.
Do you believe, and I think we need to get this clear, do you believe that that place caused that or was that there anyway?
I believe, and it's very difficult for people to stomach, okay?
And, you know, I can't prove this.
I'm not a scientist and people, you know, I don't care about ridicule and things like that.
People can take it or leave it, okay?
I think there's a very strong possibility that paranormal presences are the cause of mental maladies such as depression, anxiety.
Think about all the people, they go into a new home, and very quickly everything unravels.
You know, I've done a lot of work on attachments and people just get into a funk and they can't get out.
Okay, so you could just argue, well, that's just life, isn't it?
People get down.
Well, you could say that if somebody moves from one place that they've lived for years.
And look, I can remember when my parents moved from the house in Crosby, near Liverpool, and they moved up to Freshfield, which is near Southport, which is, you know, supposedly, it was an area where the footballers live and places like that.
It was a very humble house there.
But at the beginning, they were not happy.
It was not a happy experience.
And I always attributed that to the fact that it was just the fact that they'd lived for 20 years in one place that was very happy.
So anywhere you go to after that has got to equal or top that.
And that's probably not possible.
No, exactly.
And then you do try and rationalize as much as you can.
Now, with the research, it turned out from 1989 to 2002, seven couples lived there.
And only one couple are still together.
And I spoke to other people who lived in the house and they broke up in the exact same fashion as we had.
And there's just all this discord.
And the man there, he saw the entity known as the Angry Man, which was a seven-foot black mass.
And he was called the Angry Man because he was the one who would do all the destructive stuff.
He was the one who would try and invoke paralyzing fear and, you know, just make you feel very vulnerable and very weak.
Now, our next neighbours, they also had the same experience.
And they broke up as well.
And they reckoned the angry man lived with them.
And it would do really strange things.
Like she would do the laundry, do the ironing, put it all away, and then she'd go upstairs 10 minutes later and it'd all be scattered all over the house.
It'd break plates, things like that.
So the haunting starts off as, you know, almost like a residual haunting, you know, just your basic, your mundane stuff.
I know it sounds berserk.
It's called paranormal events mundane, but the trappings of cold spots and footsteps and doors opening, stuff that you can just apply to a residual haunting.
And then it kind of upgrades to an intelligent haunting where it seems to be reacting to what you were doing.
Now, with the people who lived there in 1989 to 1991, I was very keen this time to kind of talk to them about their dreams and visions and just their general thought processes.
And I was blessed that the woman actually kept a journal.
And in her dreams, this sounds insane, but she was actually visiting the same house as it was around the turn of the 20th century.
And through her dream stage, she was witnessing horrendous animal cruelty, child abuse, and incest.
So you start to think, are these just dreams or is it more to it?
Well, in fact, there was an example in the book, wasn't there, quite early on in the book, where these two people, and we'll name them now as you name them, these are not their real names, Di and Anne, yeah?
Yeah, that's right.
So Di and Anne, first of all, if I get this right, he discovers a cache of mutilated and badly distorted animal bones in the garden.
And then the place begins to stink and smell for no reason.
But then Anne has a dream where she, I think, has on her lap or somewhere close to her a mutilated cat.
Yes, horrendous.
And she was really upset telling me this.
Now, I went to their new home and it's just a, it's like what you said earlier.
It's just a home of life.
Every available space is adorned with pictures of the kids and holidays and they're good, decent folk.
As I said, they don't want any money.
They haven't asked for any money.
They're not on this morning.
They're not in the sun.
They're not, you know, talking to Hollywood film producers.
And we've agreed that if the book is successful, that the money, we'd just buy the house and just have the house of scientific research.
So anybody who has a copy of the book, that book is the key, all right, to go in and staying in the house.
Diane Anne, though, how are we to know that they exist?
Say somebody hears this, and I have friends who, and you have friends, of course you do, in connections who are paranormal researchers.
But say some of the big university style people want to come and investigate this thoroughly.
They're going to have to meet them.
Will Diane and Anne make themselves available for investigators?
It depends, really, because it was a cathartic experience to them.
I think that if I bought the house or the house was made available for scientific study, I think it would be an easy ask for them to be presented as part of that study as long as they weren't made to feel scrutinized and ridiculed.
Well, their identities can be, as you have protected their identities, they can be shielded.
If recordings are made of them, you know the technology exists.
We can all do it to distort and change their voices.
Of course.
Like, I'm very happy to talk about it.
My ex-girlfriend is far from happy to talk about it.
Diane Anne are happy to talk about for the purposes of catharsicism and also as a warning to other people.
Now, Anne regularly puts a letter through the door just saying if things are going wrong in this house, leave, right?
Which would be imagine that you woke up tomorrow and there was a letter on your doorstep on your mat saying, House Olivia, if you've got anything going on in your house, leave, you know, and it's such a difficult area in terms of, you know, are we allowed to believe that such things can affect us to such a degree?
Or is it all rationalized explanations?
But I wasn't there in 1989 to 1991, but whatever happened to them was terrifying.
And I think that if it was an independent panel of researchers and scientists who were very respectful and had entry to the house, I believe I could probably bring forward three, four people who lived there to be interviewed, cross-examinations, just see what their relationship is.
I think that's important from that point of view.
But I have to tell you that even if this even if this was a work of fiction, it is the way that you tell it an incredible story.
And it could be a screenplay, I think, but then I'm just a journalist who broadcasts, but I think it's that good.
So it is an amazing story that we're looking at.
I'm trying to summarize here, and it's very hard to do the stuff that happened to them in that house.
There was the terrible smell.
There was a radio that would turn itself on and at one point played very loudly by itself some kind of very old song that had some kind of connection with all of this.
Strange footprints.
They began to argue because I think probably they couldn't rationalize what was going on.
There was a seat that had the impression of somebody's backside on it, but there was nobody there, but it looked like somebody was sitting on the seat, which would scare the proverbial out of me, I have to say.
Then, of course, it begins to tear them apart.
There are thoughts that perhaps she is having an affair, isn't that right?
The thought that maybe she's having an affair?
One of the common tropes that is haunting throughout the people I've spoken to is that there's always an affair or the appearance of an affair.
And one of the problems of the house was there was always a smell of perfume.
Now, Di broke his ankle and he was housebound and he was living downstairs.
The loo was downstairs.
The kitchen was downstairs.
And he was taking medication for that.
So he was housebound.
He was, you know, he was getting his contractual sick pay to sit at home.
She was going to work in a pub and she'd come home and it'd be the smell of perfume and she'd make the bed every morning and every morning the bed would be unmade.
And she just said he was having an effect.
And he was like, I'm not, I'm not.
The phone was ringing very late at night and she was convinced she could hear him taking a call.
So she got into her head that some woman was drunk somewhere threatening to reveal they were having an affair.
So he did his very best to reassure her that that wasn't the case.
She even stripped off naked, you know, because she felt so undesirable and put him in a very difficult situation because she felt worthless.
But came to the conclusion that he was having an affair with her mother.
Oh.
And one day she made the bed up.
She could smell the perfume.
He wasn't in the house.
She walked back in the room and the bed was unmade immediately.
And then that's when she started to realize, no, something's messing up.
There is something doing this because things couldn't happen that way.
But one of the most disturbing things and one of the most difficult things to talk about here, so we'll have to think about how we say this, is that doesn't he discover her apparently have what appears to be sex with some kind of female entity?
Yeah, this was really, really strange.
Now, I'd written a book called Ghost Sex, a Violation in 2015, which, you know, regularly do in the papers and there's women on this morning and I'm often contacted about that.
And I did an investigation into ghost sex.
A woman in Pembroke Dock in South Wales claimed to have had intimate relations with a demon and a ghost.
And look, there are people who say, people who on the face of it seem to be reasonably rational, you know, who say that they have relationships with ghosts, sometimes friendly relations with ghosts.
There's even somebody who you will have seen on television and so have I, who says that she's going to marry one.
Yeah.
A spirit anyway.
Yeah, a woman contacted me in regards to, she claimed she has as ghosts, that she has sex on aircraft.
She joins the Mile High Club.
And that's not what I'm about.
Like, you know, I like to interview people and really get to the source of the story.
I'm not a professional journalist like yourself.
I'm just very interested.
And when I've got the time to do it, I will.
So the Ghost X book isn't what people think.
It's not 50 Shades of Ghost.
You know, it's not something driving jollies.
It's a very disturbing haunting, which focuses around a woman who believes she's having, you know, being raped by ghosts.
And it draws many comparisons to the Doris Biver case from Southern California, which most people know is the entity.
And what I did was, because, you know, I'm not a scientist.
So what I did was I brought a psychologist on board and we looked at the rationale of the psychology behind it.
So all the lady wanted was explanations because it had been happening for 20 years.
So as soon as Anne brought up then this, I was like, oh no, here we go again.
So basically, Anne keeps having these moments where she's dreaming very vivid, lucid dreams of being back in the same house as it was around the turn of the century, around 1900s.
And she dreamt one night, she was in bed.
She described the room as she believed it would have been then.
And there was a very, very old woman, like tremendously old, you know, not Joanna Lumley, good looking old, but like old, haggard old.
And she's a character who pops up through all the history of the house.
And I may have even had an argument with her, but I don't know.
I was drunk, I can't remember it.
There's no recording to say I did or I didn't.
So, the old lady undressed and got on top of her.
So, let's just put it this way: then she believed that she was being assaulted by some kind of presence that they were already all too aware of.
Yeah.
And the husband was downstairs and he could hear some kind of commotion upstairs.
So, he went up and Anne was sleeping in the bed in her bedroom as it was.
And he said there was a black shadow on top of it.
And Di was very reluctant all throughout the interview.
Di, like myself, like yourself, like a million other people out there listening.
Well, it could have been gas.
Maybe it was this.
Maybe it was stress.
Maybe we were drugged, you know.
And Anne was more susceptible because it seemed to focus more on her.
Well, let's be fair, from the account that you give, it seemed whatever it is, and we have seen stories like this before, many of them, it seemed to be feeding off them.
And we've all read about the Enfield poltergeist story and poltergeist cases around the world.
You know, those things appear to be energetic and they appear to feed.
Whatever this was, if there was something there, it appeared to be focused upon them.
Yeah, and that's what it does.
And, you know, if I'm jumping ahead now, like, rein me back in, okay.
But they brought in a psychic medium who was quite a prolific one.
Is this somebody called Rose?
That's the one called Rose.
Now, Rose wasn't a famous psychic medium.
She never charged.
She only took the travel expenses.
She was based in Carmarvinshire, which I think you're familiar with.
And she was very well known within the community, but she wasn't known on a national level.
You know, she didn't do TV shows and radio.
She saw it as a gift.
And she went to the house and it killed her.
Not literally dead there, but she believed it killed her.
And I spoke to her companion, a lady who had lived with her, who was now in her 80s.
And this is where it gets really strange, guys.
So if it's not been strange enough for you already, this is where it gets really strange.
And I'm glad Howard's here because he might be able to help me articulate this, okay?
Rose came to the house who'd done work for the church, who'd done work for the police, who knew her beans when it came to this stuff.
She wasn't there trying to make money, trying to get on TV.
She just did it because she could.
And she said, whatever was in that house was beyond hell.
Okay.
Apparently she dealt with demons and spirits and angry spirits and all these kinds of things.
Okay, if we were to believe these things exist.
And she said what she could see was beyond hell.
And there's an amazing quote in a book.
And as Howard said, you can't make like, you know, it's like something from Hollywood.
It's like something you'd have on a poster of a film.
Okay.
I'd love to have come up with this.
Well, look, you know, when I started to read it, and it is so well written, I thought this is fiction.
You know, this is a very good story that will make a terrific screenplay.
But this cannot have happened.
Yeah, exactly.
And all I can tell you is a most haunted house, which is included in horror, Haunted of Halford West.
As I've said before, that's 90% real.
That is 90%.
You know, the things I've changed with the names and little details that could link where the house is, okay?
And that was my perception of events.
Let me read a little bit then, if I may, from the book here.
This is a quote.
I was sat in the armchair, all alone in the middle of the night, sat in the dark, and I'd heard voices on the radio and now on the phone.
And to this day, it raises the hairs on my arms, not because of the voices, but when I looked up and towards the kitchen, I saw a tall, dark figure, blacker than the shadows, making its way towards the stairs.
And I sat there holding my breath and listened to the stairs creak as if someone was slowly taking each step at a time.
I had no idea at the time what it was.
It was big and I was terrified.
That's a great bit of writing.
That part was when Dai first saw the angry man.
That's how this thing manifests itself.
That's how it creates fear.
And I've been in the presence of the Angry Man, and it is absolutely, it's just pure dread.
And what I loved about that, Dai is, he's a Pembrokeshire guy, he's a big lad, he's a working guy, he's a mechanic, or he works on cars and things of that nature.
He's a strong guy, you know, like he's not a troublemaker, but you wouldn't want to start a problem with him.
And he was so scared that he pulled the duvet over his head that he couldn't, he just regressed to being a child.
And we've all done that as a child.
Like, if we can't see it, it doesn't exist.
And he's there in the diet with a broken leg, medicated, which in itself could be, you know, an explanation.
He's sharing his thing walking around upstairs.
And that is a terrifying introduction to this thing, this end.
And that was early on, as you say, in the whole thing.
Look, the first thing that comes to my mind at this point of it all is if it is so intense and so bad, and it's tearing them apart as people, why didn't they just pack up and get out?
Everyone asks that, and I had that option.
When we bought the house, we put everything into that house.
Like, we literally were scrabbling around to get money to buy a sofa and, you know, all the things you need for a house.
And a member once, just saying, we need to go.
And it's like, where?
Where are we going to go?
This is our life now.
This is where everything is.
And there's a stubbornness that you can beat it.
It will go away.
Someone can help.
What are you going to do?
You can't call the police.
What are the police going to do?
"Can't call your army." You know, so I We were told that there was a very experienced medium who did come to our house.
I'm not going to say who it is because I don't want to get into that debate.
But we were charged and they came to the house and they did all their incantations and spells and we were bright balls of light And there was a vortex, and Sage was involved.
And I was happy with that.
And when it all started up again, I rang her and said, Well, you know, I did my best.
I can't, you know, it's come back, you know, tough, tough, you know.
But in the case of Di and Anne, when Rose came, Rose said to them, didn't she, that it was something that was so big that it was growing, and that if it wasn't stopped, then it would feed on not only them, but it would move outside the house, it would move down the road, it would engulf an area.
Yeah, this is where it gets really strange, okay?
As I said, if it's not strange enough, what Rose said, and it's an amazing quote, whatever this thing was, God didn't create it and the devil feared it.
And she described it as like an organic virus, like a mold.
And, you know, I offer every explanation you can think of in the book, from gas to psychological issues.
And one of them is something the Americans are really big on.
We were talking about this last night, was about dimensional tears in our fabric of reality.
And like dimensional things oozing into ours, and they feed off our negativity.
It sounds incredible.
It sounds absolutely berserk.
And I can't prove that.
You know, I can't go, yeah, yeah, here's a picture of it.
These things work on levels that we can never, ever comprehend.
She couldn't properly describe what she was seeing because it was incomprehensible to her mind.
And it stretched the elasticity of her comprehension because it was just something so alien to what we understand.
Within this mass, this thing that she couldn't really describe, she could see the husks of former people that had lived in the house.
And they were like germinating more of this stuff, this black stuff.
And this thing, it seeps into our reality and it takes hold and it feeds off our negativity.
And trying to understand its motives would be like trying to explain to an ant how we use a microwave.
You know, this thing is beyond anything we understand.
But of course, you're going to be curious about how that thing got there, assuming it is there.
Exactly.
You know, like, I can only speculate.
Is it possibility that these things just naturally seep into our reality, into our dimension, and they grow?
They're like a parasite.
And we talk about attachments and what's not to say, but bits of this thing attaches itself to us.
And we're walking around in a gloom and a depression.
And when we get to a new place and this thing just drops off and it slivers off into a corner and it just waits and it grows like a mold, like a virus.
It does sound...
And I've worked in the media for years.
Certainly nothing can shock me that I've seen.
But, you know, there will be people probably hearing this who say, well, here's somebody who's had some issues that he's had to deal with in his life.
He's very creative.
And all of this is the product of that mind of yours that, you know, you had some issues, but also on the other side, you are clearly, from the writing, a very creative person.
And this is a great expression of your creativity.
I would be more than happy for anybody to tell me that this is explainable.
I'll be more than satisfied with that because for 10 years, I tried to make it fit.
I tried to hide it that it was my depression, my dependency.
It was a bad time of my life.
It had grown into something tangible, something to blame.
You know, it's the house.
It's the ghost.
You know, it's easy to do.
Well, I guess you get into a situation then, don't you?
And here, I'm sorry for talking over you, but I'm just...
You get into a situation where it gets blurred suddenly.
You don't know, you know, there are things happening.
You don't know, is it the house?
Is it me?
What's going on?
You must not know where to turn.
I was very satisfied in 2013 with a Most Haunted House that it was the Tetra system.
I was very satisfied with that.
And skeptics and, you know, people of a rational nature would talk to me and say, oh, you don't really believe it was the house, do you?
I said, you know what?
I think it's the Tetra.
I said, if people want to believe it's ghosts, it's fine.
If people want to believe it's a rational explanation, fine.
But it worked for me.
I am a creative kind of guy.
Well, I suppose you had to find something that looked like a rational explanation to be able to continue with your life.
So look, Gavin.
Where are we at now then with this house?
You know, we're not allowed to say exactly where it is, and that's fine.
We know roughly, you know, we know what town it's in.
That's enough.
There are people there tonight then as we speak.
No, it's empty.
It's empty.
It's empty.
What I did, once all the interviews were completed with Diane Anne, and I'd put them all together, what I did was I went back and I sat with them and I said, let's have another interview because I asked all the questions that I knew people would want.
And like, they conceived a child there, so I wanted to know more about the child.
Was there any effect on the child?
Had something followed them home?
Did they still have like an echo?
You know, was any of it still there, like memories and stuff?
And I asked them both about the house.
And Anne had said she's walked past and seen a light on and put a letter through the door.
And I asked them both, what would you do with the house?
What would you do with the house?
And I said, I would knock it down and I would grind up the rubble and just bury it.
And Anne was like, you can't do that because she said, whatever's in that house, if you knock it down, it's just going to go somewhere else.
And it sounds insane that, you know, a dimensional rift in our fabric of our universe, something's coming through.
Some people go, oh, it just sounds like demons.
And like, it's like, that's the most natural thing in the world to say.
Some people say it's ghosts.
I went through my, I was very content for 10 years that this was a bad time in my life and it manifested in something tangible, something I could blame, something I could work with as I took accountability and coped with my demons, my alcoholism, my depression.
And that all came to a shuddering standstill when Diane Ann got in touch with me.
Now, if they've made it up, they are the most creative people I know.
Well, I have to say that if anything could add that backbone of credibility to the story that I think you need, otherwise people will just, you know, those people who are not, you know, perhaps as open-minded as some will just say this man's a fantasist.
The one thing that would add credibility to your story, that would give you extra push, is to somehow, in some form, get them to come out of the shadows.
Yeah.
So really, tonight I needed to be talking to you and them, but I appreciate, and I'm assuming they exist, that wouldn't be easy, but I think it's the thing that you need.
Well, it all depends.
As I said, I don't know how I would feel going back in that house.
I'd like to own the house.
And if I could own the house, I would offer the house that for scientific evaluation, as long as it was objective.
You know, I wouldn't want a load of skeptics going in there just to debunk it for the sake of debunking it.
Of course, if the house is on the market, then there would be nothing.
I don't think I'm suggesting anything that is against anybody's rules because the market is the market.
There would be nothing to stop a psychic investigator spending the money, perhaps paying over rate, and renting the place for six months.
Exactly.
And I'm very confident that Diane Ann would come forward in that environment.
They wouldn't come on your show.
They won't go on this morning.
They won't go to, you know, my friend Jackie Duvoy at the sun or anything like that.
But I think they would talk to someone as I would.
I don't know how I feel about going in the house because as far as I was concerned, it was done.
I'd written The Most Haunted House.
It sold 60,000 copies.
And I got to create the Paranormal Chronicles and create a network of really amazing friends.
People, you know, get the opportunity to speak to people like yourself.
And I didn't do it for any financial gain because I have a very rewarding career.
And everything that has come from this has just been a benefit.
It's just been like an extra reward.
You know, it wasn't something I intended.
And from the back of that, I've been able to, you know, support certain organizations for people with learning difficulties and things like that.
So the negatives really outweigh the positives.
But every day I think, what if this is all real?
What awaits me when I die?
You know, is it?
Well, none of us entirely knows the answer to that.
We can only speculate and suggest, I guess.
If you've been legally injuncted or somehow legally restrained from talking about this place, lest you identify where it is and then affect its saleability or rentability.
How come you've written a book and you're talking to all of these people on podcasts and radio shows and you're talking to me?
It's just a case of I was told not to that and no circumstances whatsoever to reveal where the house is.
I haven't, I said gag order.
It's an agreement I've had that I won't divulge where the house is, but I'd already told my story.
Because what you've got to remember is I wrote The Most Haunted House in 2013.
A friend of mine read it.
I published it on Kindle, 99p, profoundly dyslexic.
It wasn't even edited.
That's me on the cover in a wig.
And 60,000 people read it.
As you said, it happened.
It just took off.
And I've spoken to the people involved, people at the house, and they're like, you know, I'm not interested.
Channel 4 production company, I can't remember, was it 11 Studios or someone like that?
They sent a letter to the house asking permission to get involved because they did their own digging.
And that was rejected as well.
So there are people who lived in the house before me that talk about where the house is.
You know, I hear what you say, but the owner of the house could probably sell it to a big American TV network and they would be able to get not just one season, but a whole lot of seasons of shows out of investigating that place.
I mean, from that point of view, that's a bit of the story that doesn't entirely add up to me.
I'm surprised that if it really is as you say it is, and if it is empty at the moment, then, you know, if I owned it, that's what I'd be doing.
I can't rationalize.
I don't have that direct communication.
I don't have that dialogue with them to understand the motives.
All right.
So you say that you've made an agreement with that person or those people not to give the specific location of this place.
Yeah.
That's as far as it is.
We haven't had a sit down and talk.
Like you, I would explain the benefits.
For a TV company to go in there and spend, I don't know, X amount of money to do a series, a show, there's no benefit to me.
Obviously, they would quote the book and it'd be book sales, okay?
But the people who own the house, that's where the real benefit is.
And maybe they'll listen to this, they'll listen to you, and they'll think, do you know what?
Yeah, maybe they want to come out with their own version, their own story, because who knows what has happened in that house since I've left.
And again, that benefits you because that adds, again, the bedrock of credibility to that story that you're telling.
Exactly.
So all of these things would help you.
Are you going to be working on those?
Or as far as you're concerned now that the book is out there, is it done for you?
I'll be honest with you, Howard.
I was pretty much done with this in 2013.
I had my catharsis.
I had my explanation.
Then it came around again.
And these people wanted what I wanted.
They wanted catharsis.
They wanted an explanation.
They wanted to rationalize it.
They wanted to get it off their chest.
Now, there's one part of the story that could solve all of this for everyone.
Okay.
And Di And Anne were taking pictures, they were making recordings, they captured something on a Polaroid, and they put it all in a shoebox.
And when they, because they hastily left the house, somewhere, somewhere, because they lost the box, somewhere in Pembrokeshire, there is a shoebox with loads of notes and audio cassettes and Polaroids.
And that could be the real clue to everything.
How much?
So you're saying that Di and Anne left that place because they had to and because of what had happened.
They had kept evidence about this.
And they didn't take it with them?
Conveniently, conveniently, which was something I said.
They thought they had taken it with them, and they've never been able to find the box.
So they think it's part of the mystery then that somehow this thing might have been disappeared.
Di is a very down-to-earth man, and he said, you know what?
His expression was his head was so far up his ass, he couldn't tell you what was up, what was down, because they just wanted to leave.
And they had to start again.
They had to start again and try and sell the house.
Okay, well, look, I'm hearing what you say, but again, that sounds very convenient because the evidence would, again, add a little bit of credibility, add another brick in your wall.
So to me, it seems that you've got a great work of writing there.
And fair play to you for that, because it's really good.
But what you need is some corroboration, I think.
And that's what my listeners are going to be telling me.
And you'll be hearing probably from those other interviews that you've done.
But it's an incredible story.
It is an absolutely astonishing story and a great piece of writing.
I think you need to see if you can, if you're allowed to, sell the screenplay.
What I'd rather do is have the house.
If I could get the house, as I said, anybody who has a copy of a book or anyone who's, you know, I would want a scientific team to use the house.
Why don't you go to one of the big scientific researchers, and we both know who they are, and some of these people have been on my show.
Why don't you go to them and try and make this happen?
Get that ball rolling.
Get the road on the show, the show on the road.
You never know.
Somebody could be listening tonight and they could be contacting me and that's it.
And then I would like to invite you there.
There's, you know, there's great skeptical scientists, even locally, and they've asked me the same kind of questions.
And it's a case of I want to tell these stories because these experiences, these accounts, whatever people want to call them, right?
Because I know my experience, that was real to me, okay?
That was real within my spectrum of senses in terms of my experience.
So you're allowing for the fact that it may not have happened.
You just said it was real to you.
Yeah, I believed it was real.
I tried to rationalize it.
And other people, the neighbors, people in the house, they all experienced it as well.
Now, what we experience, what I'm trying to say is the paranormal events may have a rational explanation in terms of, as I've done, for anyone who thinks you're just going to read a big haunted book, at the back is a summary of explanations.
And we've been through most of them, I think.
The only one we didn't get through was toxic mold syndrome.
Yeah, toxic mold syndrome.
Spores from dust, in old buildings, okay?
Toxic mold.
It's just that black mold you get on your walls.
Yeah, no, I'm not.
Look, how many rented flats did I live in?
I know.
It releases spores that can almost have like a hallucinogenic effect on people, okay?
Which would be a very good rationale for why old buildings tend to be more haunted.
So they're also like, they're almost like miniature magic mushrooms.
Yeah, exactly.
And that house was 110 years old.
And just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not necessarily in the house.
You know, we talk about different gases.
Sewerage gas can cause hallucinogenic effects.
And I even go through the mental health issues that maybe I perceived it because of how I was.
I've talked about hoax, why people would hoax it.
So in the back of the book, there is a summary of explanations from gas all the way to dimensional beings, aliens, radon gas, EMF, toxic mold.
So if you're not quite into the story and you're like, do you know what?
I believe what's happened has happened within the realms of the perception of what's happened, but I don't think it's paranormal.
There's enough at the back then where you think, you know what, that makes sense.
That's what it could be.
Okay.
Last question.
Fascinating conversation.
And I hate asking questions like this because I'm a nice guy.
Have you convinced yourself that this is all true?
For the last 10 years, I've been trying to convince myself it's not true.
And that's true in that I found it very digestible to believe that I was at fault with mental health issues, that there was something in the house, that there was tetra technology.
What I can't speak for and put my hand on heart is the experience of all the other people.
And as you rightly said, until there's a day where more people come forward or the house is available for scientific study, no one's going to know for sure.
And that goes for any haunting, you know, the Borley Rectory, the Enfield haunting, until there is conclusive scientific study that looks at all the options, no one would know.
I'd love for it, Howard, to come on your show at a later day and say, we bought the house and guess what?
And you go, what?
And we go, there's a high element of toxic mold in the house.
Or something like that.
But even so, even if it was something like that, and we have to say the views of what you think it might be are your views.
They are not my views because I'm not allowed to have any.
But, you know, whatever the cause might be, it would still be a great story.
And even if it was all fake, it would be a great work of fiction.
And I know you're going to tell me that, no, this happened and something caused it.
It's an astonishing story.
I don't know what to make of it, Gavin.
But you tell it well, I have to say.
And the book to me reads like a great Victorian ghost story.
for me, it's that well written.
So it's a you know, if that's all your own work, wow.
Okay.
I wish, like, before each chapter, I introduce each chapter.
I'm a big fan of like M. R. James and my bits that I introduced to the book, I wanted a particular voice.
And I don't know if you remember, Howard, there used to be a show on Radio 4 called Fear on Thought, and it was presented by Edward D'Souza.
And the bits I present before each chapter, and, you know, the book ends, the account, I always had that kind of voice in my head, and I always wanted that kind of classic style to it.
Yeah, well, there is.
I mean, you've succeeded.
It has this, gothic is the wrong word, but it has this Victorian style to it, which is great.
So look, if people want to see more about you, is there a place online where I can direct them?
Yeah, they can go to theparanormalchronicles.com.
And also, something really cool.
As I said, I'm not here just to make money and get rich and famous.
What I've created as well is a free e-magazine for everyone.
There's no sign-up, no subscription, no download.
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