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Aug. 11, 2018 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes
57:10
Edition 357 - Fiona Horne

Meet Australian Fiona Horne... Rock Star, Pilot... And Modern Witch.

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Across the UK, across continental North America, and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast.
My name is Howard Hughes, and this is The Unexplained.
Well, thank you very much for all of your emails, your support for this show.
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And if you sent me feedback on the show or ideas about it, thank you very much.
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This edition of the show is going to be very different.
We're going to profile somebody who I just happened to read about in a newspaper article quite recently.
She's very well known in the US and Australia, and I think also well known here in the UK.
I have to say that she was new to me, but I'm glad I discovered her.
Her name is Fiona Horne, and she is, self-described, a modern witch.
She has had a remarkable life, and we're going to talk, this conversation that we're about to have is going to be literally a conversation, much less than an interview, I think, because she's had the kind of life that a lot of people dream about having.
She's done some remarkable things.
She has been a rock star with the Australian 90s band DefFX, had hit records, got some notoriety in the United States, I understand.
She is now currently working as a pilot in the Caribbean, a dream job for a lot of people, I guess that would be, in that beautiful place.
But she has lived a very full life and has also been, throughout her life, a modern witch.
We'll find out what that is when we speak with Fiona Horne.
We'll also talk about some of her books.
She is quite prolific.
Check her out online.
I'll put a link to her work on my website, theunexplained.tv.
So a conversation this one will be with somebody I think is a remarkable person, Fiona Horne, on this edition of The Unexplained.
And with a bit of luck and with the miracle of mobile internet in the Caribbean, I'm not sure how good that is.
We're about to find out.
Fiona Horne, thank you for coming on The Unexplained.
Where do we start with your story?
Because from what I'm reading about your biography, you are all things you are and have been a rock star.
You are a pilot.
And you are, I think, a witch.
That's correct.
The witchcraft stuff is my spiritual path.
The other things are my jobs.
Do they continue to be your jobs?
Yeah, I work as a commercial pilot now in the Caribbean.
And I still, occasionally, we do reunion tours in Australia with my band because back in the 90s it had a big following.
We had a brief 15 minutes of fame in the US in the early 90s.
It was a good time and it's a lot of fun to get the band together.
But it's probably the most remote thing on my list of things to do.
But I work currently full-time as a pilot and I'm obviously writing.
You know, that sort of has come back and tapped me on the shoulder.
So books are something I'm working on right now as well.
And we're speaking to you from the Caribbean.
We're linking up with there, which is amazing that we can do that.
The thing that hit me most, I've looked at one of your books today, which very helpfully came by courier just two hours ago.
Full life is the phrase that I could use about you.
You know, most people dream of doing the stuff that you've been able to do.
Well, I think I've certainly worn a lot of hats and continue to wear hats, different hats in my life.
I hope if there's one message that comes through when people read my books or an article about me or listen to us chatting right now, that they can consider that anything is possible if you allow it to be.
I'm not particularly extra talented at anything, but I am very persistent.
I've learned to do one thing very well in life, and that's not give up.
Often the face of overwhelming odds and fear of failure, I somehow just keep plugging away and eventually these things come to be.
And I would hope that people would get that maybe that bit of inspiration that you don't have to grow older.
You can grow better at living if you just get out of your own way and do it.
The music industry is full of people who look to, sometimes when they get more successful, sometimes when they don't get to be as successful as they want to be, they look to alternative lifestyles.
They look to answers to their issues in things alternative, maybe spiritualism, maybe witchcraft, whatever it might be.
You know, that is, the two things that you've done seem to be very, very closely, not exactly inextricably, but very closely linked.
Well, I think with modern witchcraft and the interest that I've, you know, grown to have and live every day now has started when I was a long time before I was ever in a band or thought to even do anything other than run around the garden singing as a child.
I was always drawn to nature.
I grew up in the Australian bush area, as Sydney it was, but back in those days it wasn't the vibrant cosmopolitan city that it is now.
Where I grew up was very, quite, quite remote and I used to play out in the bush.
You know, back in those days, obviously no Nintendo, no smartphones to, you know, play video games on.
I was out there running around in the bush and I always felt something magical and special.
I felt very at home out in the bush more than anywhere else.
I wasn't happy at school.
I was, you know, we can call it bullying now.
I was one of those children that was kind of getting the rough end of the stick literally and figuratively a lot of the time.
If it helps, it probably won't.
I went through that too, so I know what.
I think it might be a generational thing, really, you know, when I look back on it, that our generation kind of, it was spare the rod and spoil the child.
So we copped it pretty hard from our parents, from our teachers and from our peers.
And so I would escape into the bush and I felt that there was something magical and alive there and I felt I had it, it knew me, and I knew it, and it loved me, and I loved it.
And so I felt very at home in the bush.
And really, that was the seeds being planted for an ongoing fascination with the natural world and a love and a sense of divinity in it.
And as I grew through my teens and stumbled upon modern witchcraft as a pagan, as a nature-worshipping and goddess-oriented, like a dualistic principle of divinity came through in modern witchcraft for me.
It was the goddess and the god.
And very different to my Catholic upbringing, where Eve was always portrayed as the original sinner.
I loved that in the world of modern witchcraft there was a celebration of the divine feminine and also a real, you know, there was an embracing of the natural world as being inherently powerful, but maybe even not so much as powerful, but that loved us and was supporting and thrived.
It thrived when we interacted with it as much as we thrived.
I didn't want to interrupt you just before because this is about you talking, not about me talking, but you talked about the goddess principle.
Just for those of my listeners to whom that may be something new, just explain what that is.
Well, in modern witchcraft, we have a sense of understanding the divine as being feminine as well as masculine.
So the goddess that we can acknowledge spiritually as sometimes derived from different cultures, Greek and Roman goddesses, Welsh, all the different pantheons, a modern witch can look and learn and interact with what she would perceive their energies and presence to be, how it reveals itself to her.
Or the goddess can be something, and this is more how I experience it now, having related to my spiritual life as a witch now for decades, for 30 years, more than that.
The goddess to me doesn't have a definitive face, name or description.
It's a presence that is omnipresent.
I don't need to describe it.
It just is.
And I have an intimate relationship with it.
A part of you or is it someone, something that you invoke?
I think it's both.
I think it's both.
You can know it by treating it as separate to yourself.
But at the end of the day, you know, one of my favourite analogies is that as humans, we're like waves on the ocean.
The beautiful ocean that I'm looking at right now, I'm literally parked on the edge of the Caribbean Sea.
Oh, wow.
And a wave comes up from the ocean.
It forms itself and it thinks it's separate.
It's a wave.
It's got its own personality, its own presence, its own description, its own reality, its own laws of physics.
It's a wave.
But at the end of the day, it will return to the sea from which it rose.
And that's the same way I relate to my spiritual sense of Goddess, God, all of it, the divine within and without.
It's like a wave.
We rise up and then we return from whence we came.
So we're always it.
Even when we think we're separate, we're still it.
This comes really naturally.
The way that you speak about it flows quite beautifully.
But to a lot of people living, I mean, I'm talking to you from London.
We've got listeners in the United States and all the big cities there.
Our lives are very different.
Now, I can understand the background that you came from because I was lucky enough to visit various parts of Australia for a radio show that I used to do in London with a guy called Chris Tarant here.
And, you know, it was just one of those moments in your life where they flew us out business class to wonderful places like Heyman Island, Hamilton Island, on the Great Barrier Reef.
And the nicest one for me was Perth.
And the reason for that was...
I love Perth.
Perth is one of my...
In fact, if I could live in Perth, I would live in Perth.
But one of the nicest afternoons that I spent was in the company of an Aboriginal guy.
We didn't mean to meet him.
He found us.
And he just particularly latched onto me.
People tended to.
People tended to find me when I was doing this show.
And I asked him all kinds of questions, including the one about where are you from?
And all he was able to do was to point in a particular direction.
And then we went into a news agent's shop and we borrowed a map there.
And he unfurled the map there.
The news agent was looking a bit annoyed, but he unfurled this map.
He said, he pointed to a place and he said there.
But as we talked across that afternoon, there was such a sense of connection to all things and also a kind of knowingness.
He was looking at us with all of our equipment, linking back to London, doing a live show in the afternoon in Perth.
And we were full of our gizmos and technology and all the rest of it.
He didn't need any of that because he was connected anyway.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's interesting that you mention an Indigenous Australian like that because that was certainly, I felt very lucky growing up in Australia that we had such a vibrant Indigenous culture and that we were able to learn a lot about their dream time legends, their walkabout, like practice.
And I mean, and linking it, I guess, you know, linking it to now what I'm doing now.
And it's so interesting that you're talking about this experience you had back then because I'm writing another book now and I have a section in it about the importance of going walkabout and I'm borrowing from Indigenous Australians' practice of going walkabout.
Traditionally it's a rite of passage taken by men, young men, you know, before they're 16 or by the time they're 16 and they go walkabout and it's to walk the paths that their ancestors walk to to have no directions particularly other than to be guided by the spirits of the land, of the people and it's seen as an integral part of that passage from youth to man, but also really important for the land.
So the land knows the people and the people know the land.
And so I've practiced growing walkabout all my life in a way.
I just, you know, I think that's why I've ended up traveling to the areas I have, living the different lives that I have, how I've even ended up on this little rock in the middle of the Caribbean Sea right now.
It's going walkabout is a spiritual practice of in forgetting who you are, you find who you are.
And that's, it's, and that you can do that over and over and over again in life.
And I, in many ways now, having been on the planet over half a century in physical years, if that means anything, but I guess it's a chunk of physical time, means my future is getting shorter, you know, my past is getting longer.
So I even think of the practice of as a modern witch now with the spiritual outlook I have on life and the way I live my life.
And even working as a commercial pilot in the very, you know, traditional professional environment of aviation, I still, my heart beats a witch's drum.
And so I look at my walkabout, my ultimate walkabout will be the one where I transition to my physical death.
And that will be going walkabout as well.
So I feel like in some ways I'm preparing to die whenever that's meant to be.
And I want that to be meaningful.
And I hope in my own way, I pray to the goddess God of my understanding that it will be a meaningful transition and it will be another amazing walkabout.
So much I want to ask you.
I think I have to wind you back a little to your younger years, before you were involved in music, before you'd done anything, in those years when you were a girl in the outback, connected with all nature and all the rest of it.
Did you discover at that point that you had or you could tap into power?
I would think that I had some ability to control the wind.
I mean, I've written about this in my books.
It's like, you know, I was a little girl and I still remember my first thing that I said looking at the trees sitting out in the bush and I was convinced I could make them move.
And I would say, blow, wind, blow, make my feet and fingers glow.
I mean, that was a seven-year-old's version of a rhyming poem spell witch thing.
And I would stare at the trees and I would move and I was convinced I made the leaves move.
And I just felt that I had my observation, my interaction with the natural world could cause it to do things.
But I had no ego attachment.
I mean, I think as a teenager, as I, you know, as we seek to find an identity and a place where we can feel relatively comfortable in the world, I saw witchcraft as a way of a means to an end, you know, getting a job, getting a boyfriend, getting somewhere better in life, getting more.
And so it became this ego-driven thing based on a fear of not being good enough and a fear of not being enough.
And certainly for a while there, it became this, you know, the spells I cast, it was everything trying to have the things I thought I needed to have to be happy or to be accepted, to have a life,
you know, and yet as I have journeyed on, I feel that my craft now, my witchcraft, my spiritual life, and even my physical, practical life is more of a journey of becoming less, not more.
I continually let go of things now and I don't really do spells at all anymore.
I do rituals of gratitude.
If I feel that there's a time where I'm struggling, like especially with working in aviation, it's quite challenging environment.
Especially being a female in aviation is a whole, you know, I used to feel isolated and alienated as a woman in rock and roll and the female pilot, it's getting better, but gosh, it's, oh, you know, so this is where I do a ritual of gratitude for what I have, which is I have my commercial pilot's license, multi-engine, single-engine, and I'm instrument privileges.
And I have a job flying private charter and animal rescue and humanitarian aid.
I donate that stuff, but I have a job flying people around and I donate the animal rescue and the aid.
You know, I'm doing this stuff, but sometimes working as a woman in this aviation industry, it can be very challenging.
So that's when I do a ritual of gratitude to celebrate what I have rather than what I don't, to ask my idea of goddess God to give me, help me be patient.
Right.
So you've matured in all of this then.
You've changed in all of this, whereas you'd have handled that situation maybe 20 years ago by trying to do a spell, I would imagine, to get people to treat you better.
Now you just kind of give thanks and you let the universe bring to you whatever.
Exactly.
And I've really learned, and there's actually a section in my very new book that I'm working on now that'll be released early next year.
I'm writing about how to make sure your spells work 100% of the time because I've discovered the secret and they really do work 100% of the time when you ask for nothing for yourself and you only ask to be useful, to be shown the path of service and the universe takes care of everything better than you could try to conjure it.
That's what I've really learned is just to only ask to be of service and be useful, to celebrate what you have and be grateful.
And then everything else happens better than you could imagine.
Do you remember the first spell that you cast when you were young and what you wanted and how you learned that?
I remember the first spell I cast was a spontaneous one that I kind of made up, but I was under the misconception back then that witchcraft was the opposite of Catholicism and I was really unhappy in the Catholic Church.
So I got a black candle.
I don't know how I got hold of one because things weren't that easy to get hold of back then.
But I got a black candle.
I turned it upside down and I exposed the wick at the bottom of it and burned it backwards to basically just to liberate me from the misery I was in, which was I wanted to leave home.
I wanted to get away from where I was.
I'm super unhappy and I just wanted to disappear out into the world somewhere far, far away from where I was.
And that was what the little 13 year old me did.
And you know, and it kind of maybe worked.
I mean, I left home at 14, found a job and found a boarding house to live in and started My own life at 14, which I look back now and think, God, that was very young.
Wow.
Yeah.
I mean, I guess, you know, in the outback and areas close to it, you learn self-sufficiency.
Yeah, I have to be more accurate.
I did not live in the outback.
Where I lived was the suburbs of Sydney, which at the time, I lived in the southern suburbs of Sydney, which at the time were very undeveloped and remote.
Now they're very modernised and very built up, and it's part of the giant cosmopolitan urban sprawl of Sydney.
But back then, it was, you're out in the bush, you know, you were a couple hours' drive from Sydney centre.
But, you know, these days that's very cosmopolitan, normal urban suburban Sydney.
But back then, it was remote.
And aren't those places that you lived in, that area that you lived in, isn't that one of the places where the big freight trains go through that go right across the continent and literally they get out of Sydney and they go for an hour or so, whatever it might be, then there is nothing?
Maybe I'm not, I wasn't quite in that direction, but definitely that's you definitely bring up something that's that's amazing about Australia is that so much of the population is clustered around the coastlines and the centre of it is vast and kind of empty other than this absolutely magnificent landscape and presence of place.
You know, it's a very ancient land.
The only other place, I've traveled a fair bit, but the only other place I've had a sense of the silence and the deep resonating energy of the centre of Australia was when I was in Africa and a couple of years ago and I did a, took myself on a flying safari and I went to Namibia.
So I went to a few different countries in Africa, but I went to Namibia and it was out in the middle of the Namibian desert, the Fish River Gorge and the stones, the rocks there are supposed to be the oldest exposed rock in the world.
But it felt like Australia.
When I was there, it felt like Australia.
And then when I was in South Africa, staying at my girlfriend's house and looking at elephants in the front yard and various other things, the colour of the red dirt and the pale olive coloured leaves reminded me of Australia too.
I know Australia a bit.
I know South Africa very well and I'm very jealous that you were able to get to Namibia because this year was supposed to be the year that I went to Vindhoek and then went out into Namibia and I never got the chance to do it so I'm having to do that another time.
I had a short two weeks but it felt like forever and I flew a Cessna 182 with a Namibian pilot.
I had to have him in the plane because the hassle of converting your license to a Namibian license to be allowed to rent a plane in Namibia and flight around was just, it was going to take months and months.
So instead I just got a Namibian pilot to do the PIC stuff and I flew and we did, we went all over Namibia.
One of my favourite parts of it was flying into Sosavdale, which is the famous red sand dunes.
And we climbed is the highest one at six in the morning and then later that afternoon we flew across the sand dunes to the coastline up the skeleton coast and landed in Swakatmud and had some of the best oysters I've ever eaten and it was you could do all that just in a day, you know, and the ship and the skeleton coast is like there's there's 200 year old shipwrecks along the coast.
And flamingos, thousands of pink flamingos at Walvis Bay.
I mean it's just the most beautiful country and hardly any people there.
I think in this world you have to go.
You have to go.
Well I think in this world there are people who live in cities and try and get the next trophy on the career ladder.
And there are people who, and I was always a bit like this, but I kind of got tramlined into a radio career in London and that sort of stuff.
But I was always, my eyes were always outside.
I always wanted to connect with other stuff.
Now, my listener will be saying, I thought you were going to be talking about witchcraft and magic, so I need to bring you back to that, but I could talk with you all day.
Because we're talking about the magic of the natural world, and that's an integral part of modern witchcraft.
Really, precisely, you're connecting with nature.
One thing that struck me as interesting, though, that you say that you don't now do spells as such yourself, because you went through the phase of casting spells to get the boyfriend, whatever else you wanted.
And now that you do these rituals of thanks, which sound very, very good to me, that sounds like a good way of progressing.
And yet your books tell people how to cast spells.
How come?
Well, I think it's relevant to put that in context because my first book on modern witchcraft was called Witcher Magical Journey.
It was published 20 years ago and HarperCollins in the UK just did a 20th anniversary re-release of it, which was very, I felt very humbled and grateful that it would be considered a relevant title to have out there.
And this is the book that I got from the courier today, is that right?
Yeah, I gave him a call and I said, could you get one over to Howard?
Because they're right there.
You know, that book's released internationally.
And these days, you can get anything on, you know, like an e-book or a Kindle or whatever.
But yeah, the hard copies come out of the UK.
I love that.
I love the way I haven't read every page of it, every word of it.
We just have to say to our listener who says, you're interrupting your guest.
There's just a slight delay between us and the Caribbean.
That's why it sounds that way.
But I didn't get the chance to read the entire book.
Not even I can read that fast.
I love the layout of it, though.
And I had no idea it was 20 years old.
I didn't know it was a re-release.
Yeah, well, and it's interesting because, yes, that book I wrote 20 years ago was about my practice then, and it was very much anchored in the classic witchcraft book.
You know, it's like almost like a recipe book of spells to do different things, what different colours mean magically, what numbers, what types of essential oils you can use, what's a good ritual to clear your house of negative energy.
There's even a cosmetic conjurings chapter, which is how to make your own natural cosmetics that are empowered with magic to enhance your physical and inner beauty.
I mean, there's a chapter about the her story, as we call it, instead of his story.
We call it her story of witchcraft.
I mean, it's like a primer.
And what I'm grateful about is that, you know, 20 years on, it's still relevant.
However, my personal practice has evolved, obviously, as it should, you know, 20 years on.
I released an autobiography last year that's called The Naked Witch, which isn't so much about practicing witchcraft, like a how-to book, like that first witch and magical journey is, but it's a story of one witch's life,
you know, my life up until now and how the fact that I'm a witch kind of coloured my life as I moved through all these different careers as a rock star, as a television personality, as a radio host, as an author, as a pilot, commercial pilot, as a spin instructor, as a yoga instructor, as everything, you know, it's like blah, blah, blah.
But through all of that, I'm a witch.
And so what does that mean?
And so my autobiography addresses that stuff.
And then, you know, right now, as it turns out, my publishers asked me to do another book about how I practice now.
And that will reflect what you and I are talking about now, how the rituals of gratitude, the heartbeat of your natural heart, you know, that is, I think it's essential.
The new book is like a manifesto, a code of ethics and practices for modern witches, irrespective of what tradition you follow or what you think you're aligned to as a witch.
This is a code of ethics and principles I think that every witch, if they want to live a happy life as a witch, could perhaps learn from.
When you are casting spells to get things, was there a downside with that?
I've heard people say that when you use something like this, and I've often suspected that there are some people that I have been around or worked with in the broadcasting industry who are using something like this to further their own interest.
But that's another issue.
But do you find that there is a downside?
In other words, if you get the thing you want, there's a price to pay.
It comes with a bill, a price tag.
Well, I think that when you cast spells with that, with the mindset of needing something, you're immediately establishing that you're not something.
And sometimes, you know, it's like that very old saying that has nothing to do with witchcraft, but it's be careful what you wish for.
What I've learned is when I've, I guess, used magic to a point where it appears to have had an effect in my life, that at a point in time it takes away more than it ever gave me.
Because if I'm going to continue living as a useful, evolved person and live a happy life, then you learn more from what's taken away than what's given to you.
So when I look back at my life, and certainly my autobiography talks about these things, where more things were taken away than ever given.
And that's how I've learned to not ask for anything anymore, but just to be grateful for what I have.
And then it's like the universe just rolls out the red carpet and most extraordinary opportunities and things and simple serendipitous events occur that allow me to be happy and enjoy my life.
And I truly live in a way that I can be in the present moment without an attachment to past or future.
And again, I just keep using the word happy because I think it's unconditionally happy because it's an elusive state of mind.
I know in my travels, I've met and known a lot of people that have a lot of stuff, what's marketed to us as important in life.
The great job, the tons of money, the this, the that, the more, the more, the more.
And all those people aren't happy.
They're insecure.
They're trying to manage their, you know, the weight of their life.
And I don't know.
I've just learned that, you know, I kind of live like that for a long time.
You know, it was always about, well, you've had a number one song.
You've got to have another number one song.
You had a best-selling book.
Well, you've got to write the next best-selling book.
And, you know, nothing was ever enough.
And the other thing about it is that when you, and I'm, yes, I am talking from experience here.
When you get to the sunlit uplands, when you experience those pinnacles, when you get the stuff that you burn for, you wish for, and you pray for, which I did.
And maybe, well, you cast spells, but I'm sure you also prayed for things to come to you.
Not only do they have a downside and a price tag, but there are going to be people around you who say, why has he or she got that?
And they will want you brought down.
And so all of that, when you want these things and fame is one of those things, it always strikes me that something up there might bring them to you, but be prepared for all the stuff that comes with them.
Well, it's definitely a, you know, you mentioned the F word fame.
It's like that's fleeting.
And even when you have a lot of attention and accolade, you know, exactly what you're saying.
You know, you could be an individual that's still fraught with insecurity and self-doubt and fear of losing all of this stuff all of a sudden.
And I've had to work very, very hard to erase that tendency in my own life.
And funnily enough, when I stepped away from feeling attached to the idea of fame and the need to be on the cover of magazines and the this and the that, and I went and worked in aviation, wanted to donate my flying skills to humanitarian aid and be a useful presence in the world.
That sort of went on for five or six years.
And then all of a sudden, the tap on the shoulder from the old publisher and all of a sudden I'm writing another book and then it does well.
And this is just last year and then I'm on cover of magazines again and I'm on TV again and I'm like, interesting.
It feels so different this time because I'm so not attached to it.
And I'm grateful.
I hope what I say is useful.
I hope it's meaningful to someone.
I hope that it's maybe even inspiring.
I'm lucky that I get beautiful feedback from people saying that they do enjoy what I'm sharing and the life that I'm living.
And it does inspire them to consider that they, as I said earlier in chatting with you, Howard, you don't have to grow older.
You can grow better at living and age, especially as women, we don't have a use by date.
your life can be a magnificent miracle every day if you choose it to be.
Even through the worst times, like I'm actually more grateful for the horrible things that have happened in my life because I've learned the most from them.
My autobiography talks about this, some of the stuff that went on.
Well, give me a flavor then.
I mean, if it's painful to recount, then we don't have to, but just give me an idea.
No, no, it's just, you know, you talked earlier about everything being taken away.
You know, like you can, you know, I was in love with someone.
We had a house, a home, a life, a family, not human children, animal children.
And it all went away.
And it went away so painfully and horrifically.
I just, it nearly killed me, literally.
And yet I had a choice and I chose life.
And I'm so grateful I did.
It took about six years to come back out of that.
Dark, dark, dark, sad time.
And yet I just really, I know that if you if you don't give up, my biological mother, I'm adopted, my biological mother actually said something to me once.
She said, Fiona, when you can't see the light at the end of the tunnel, crawl through it and light the bloody thing yourself.
And I thought, cool, you know, that's what I had to do.
I like your mum.
Okay, so the problem is that now you are back in the limelight for all of this and you're getting invitations.
For a little bit.
Well, you know, I get the feeling that you can control how much of that you want, which is good.
Believe me, it's good.
But the problem is that the way that the media will portray you, and I've looked at some of the articles written about you recently online, is that here is a witch.
Did you look at the Daily?
Daily Mail.
What is it?
Daily Mail?
I thought that was so funny.
I don't know where they never talked to me personally, but they wrote some stuff and I was like, oh my God.
And you know, the funniest thing is this stuff comes out and you're like, whoa, you know, here I am on this little rock in the Caribbean and I have not spoken to a journalist in a Daily Mail, but they're just jumping on things they see, you know, published in other places and weaving it all together and grabbing stories from online and photos of me.
And I'm like, looking at it.
And it's hilarious and kind of, it's flattering in a bizarre way because I think, God, all that trouble for me.
And here I am out here flying, picking up passengers.
And I get up at 3 a.m. and fly the newspapers from one island to another island.
And it's like, and Daily Mail's writing all this stuff about me.
And it's really funny.
But I'll tell you what's even funnier.
Where I live now, I don't own anything.
You know, I don't have any, I have very little cash, you know, money cash, but I have a lot of wealth in other ways.
And I live in a beautiful home because the owner of the airline I fly for, the charter airline I fly for, the owner has me property manage one of their properties because I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't have a pet, I'm reliable, I work for them, so I look after one of their houses.
But the funny thing is they're from the UK.
So when they read the bloody Daily Mail thing and they're like, they said, Fiona, have you seen this?
And I'm like, and they show me it and they're like, I went, oh, God, I didn't know.
And they go, what are you in the papers in the UK for?
Like, you know, and I said, oh, I don't know.
They're just, it's that book, you know, and they're like, well, maybe we should charge more when you fly the plane because you're famous.
And I mean, I'm just a bust driver in this guy flying one of the planes they own.
20% surcharge on the papers.
Maybe we should charge more because you're famous when you fly the plane.
But you look, the point that I was, the newspaper story, you know, I spend a lot of my life on news desks and I don't do so much of that these days because I want to do other things with my life, like you want to do other things with your life.
But, you know, I've known what it's like to be at the top in that field.
And, you know, it's okay.
But you try and what they were trying to do, it struck me when I read that piece, is what all journalists do.
You want to try and simplify the story.
So I read that story and I thought, well, here's somebody who's been a rock star.
There's been a couple of them.
Which one are you talking about?
Well, I'm talking about the one where you decided to give your flying skills to charitable outlets so that you could help people, which is very laudable, very good.
But of course, they told the rest of the story, as a guy in America called Paul Harvey used to say on radio years and years ago, the rest of the story was here's a rock star who's also a witch, who is now doing all this cool stuff flying in the Caribbean.
I mean, it is a dream story to tell.
I know, I thought they did a great job.
I just was blown away that they put it in the paper like that.
But it's great.
I mean, you know, if people can look at it and go, wow, you know, I started flying airplanes in my physical years in my 40s and I am now, whatever I am, 52, I don't even know.
And I don't like talking about age in a number sense because it's not the years in your life, it's the life in your years.
I really believe that.
And I'm hoping so.
Well, I think because I choose to live differently, I don't live by what's preached to us, that we're here to grow old, get sick and die expensively.
I'm like, screw that.
I'm not doing that.
I'm going to live my life differently.
But my point is, is that I hope that when people see my unusual life, that they might get something out of it and think, oh, well, maybe it's not too late for me to learn to fly an airplane or it's not too late for me to take that dream trip to the Caribbean.
And no, I don't have to spend tens of thousands of dollars.
Maybe I could donate my time and offer to help any number of the many aid outlets.
God knows, we had two catastrophic hurricanes last year.
And, you know, we're grateful for anyone to come out and help.
And there's so many opportunities.
And, you know, you get to be in the Caribbean, do some useful service, end your day by jumping in the beautiful blue sea.
And, you know, there's so many ways to live a useful and adventurous life.
And it's not about having to have enough money to go and stay at a five-star resort.
And if you learn to fly airplanes, there's so many different ways of doing it now that you don't have to be forking out tons and tons and tons of money.
There's lots of ways of doing things if you give it a chance.
And listen, we're on the same page.
We are on the same page.
The print on your page, though, is a lot clearer and sharper than the print on my page.
It's a little fuzzier than the page I'm looking at.
But, you know, we're on the same page.
So, look, I don't want to do that journalist simplifying thing, but the story that you've told me is here's somebody who grew up, connected to nature, decided that she wanted to try some witchcraft.
It tended to work.
The spells that she cast brought her things.
But then you got to be the things you wanted to be, the rock star, all the rest of it.
And then it all came crashing down.
There was a downside to it.
And now you've ended up using your skills as a pilot in the Caribbean.
You're living a lovely life.
But the witchcraft is coming to call again because the original book has been republished.
Other works are out there.
You're working on another one.
The media is going to want you to, and they're already doing it, that you say, they're going to want you to go on there and offer something to people.
And you know what people are like.
What they want, if you put a psychic on the radio, they want the psychic to tell them everything's going to be faberooni.
It's going to be great.
So what they're going to be wanting from you is for you to teach them a spell that is going to make their life fantastic.
Well, I'll just keep saying what I'm saying, which is I suggest not doing a spell, do a ritual of gratitude for what you have and then watch your life transform.
Now, I'm just going to keep saying that because you know what else is really nice about being at this point in my personal life is, and whether that's got to do with maturing or whether it's got to do with the sequence of events that got me to here through all the loss and grief and suffering and pain to be on this flip side alive and grateful, I don't feel, I don't need to be a people pleaser anymore.
I don't need to, like when you called me, Howard, and you said, we've got tons of listeners in the US.
I was like, I don't care if it's just you and me talking.
You know, the God, universe, whatever it is, got, you know, your producer to contact me through my website and here we are.
So I'm happy.
No matter what.
I don't know where I read about you first, but I just thought here is a really interesting person.
And the whole thing about saying to you, we've got loads of listeners in the US is that I did not want to lose you as a guest.
That's why, because when I picked up the book and I've only scanned it, I was even more fascinated than I was to begin with.
So that's why I wanted this conversation to continue.
So look, do you believe that on some level in this life that you are now living, you are using magic is, or magickers may be using you in some way?
Well, it depends at this point when you, what is the definition of magic?
You know, that would be, if we broke down the sentence, the question you just asked me, so what's the definition of magic pertaining to the question you just asked?
So do I think that maybe it's using me?
I would say the first thing that jumped into my head was I do have a, what I call a kind of a prayer, a mantra, the God goddess of my understanding.
I only ask that it allows me to be useful.
So show me a way to be of service and be useful today.
And whatever it is, I'll trust you.
And when really crazy stuff happens or really difficult things still happen, which they do often every day, especially out here in the islands, I find myself saying, I trust you, God, universe.
You know, I trust you.
Okay, I trust you.
I know this is really uncomfortable to me now.
I'm feeling really challenged, but I trust you.
I trust you.
And that's a conversation I have with my higher power of my understanding.
So, you know, when you ask me, is magic working through me?
Well, I only ask my higher power to be useful.
So then I guess if I'm a useful conduit, if I'm a useful expression of it, then I guess it is working through me.
Are you ever tempted if somebody, and you know, look, I'm sure the life you're leading sounds idyllic, but I'm sure there have, you hinted at this anyway, there are hassles and frustrations.
Have you ever been tempted to use magic against something or someone that's hassling you?
No, no, it's funny you say that, but no.
And I have noticed with, you know, one thing that's very different now to when I first, for want of a better term, came out of the broom closet 20 years ago, ha ha ha, it never gets old, you know, that and a plane is more comfortable than a broomstick.
Yes, that's true.
They're the two things that never get old, those two jokes.
But when I came out, there was no barely any internet, you know, there certainly wasn't any social media like Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, any of that.
And there is this surge of online witches now, and, you know, especially with Instagram, especially with that platform, witches of Instagram, you know, there's a million, million hashtag links and just, it's nuts.
And when you talk about, well, are you ever tempted to do spells that are negative on other people?
It makes me think about some of the witch wars that are going on online.
You know, in that book you have in your hands that I wrote 20 years ago, there is a chapter called Bitchcraft and it talks about hexing and why you shouldn't do it and all this sort of stuff.
And now with the anonymous power that the internet avails individuals of, there can be a lot of bullying and witch wars, for want of a better term.
And I mean, it happens all across the board, but I'm just talking specifically about the witch and pagan community.
And so the new book I'm working on addresses this a little bit too.
And it's about how, you know, at the end of the day, it's a far greater show of power to deflect and to diffuse by avoiding and not engaging.
And that is a powerful witch, a really wise witch, understands that it's a little bit like the Eastern, you know, you see the kung fu masters and they deflect the blow, they don't punch back.
You know, it's like it's the same thing with magical wars and with people that harm you and hurt you.
I think hate is a valid emotion and it's an important emotion.
And I know I hate two people in my life, and I know exactly who they are.
I know why I hate them, and I'm very at peace with that.
I do not let them know about my hatred of them.
I do not cast spells against them.
I just am peaceful in my acceptance of deciding to hate them.
And I leave them to their own misery because they do cause it in their own lives.
They don't need me to make their lives worse.
And that's what it is.
And my attitude towards that, you know, willful acts of magic against people you dislike.
Most people aren't worth the bother, the ones that hurt you that much.
But there are two people I hate, and I just leave them to their own misery.
You know, the greatest thing I ever heard was what, because I've had one or two people who've done me down in various ways, personally and professionally.
I think we all have had that.
And the greatest thing that was ever said to me is, what do I wish, whoever it was?
I wish them nothing.
I don't have any thoughts or feelings or wishes or anything for them.
And that's the best thing that I can do.
And it's the healthiest thing for me, I think.
So I get what you're saying.
But what you're saying is that people are using new technology fueled by witchcraft, if my listener believes that such a thing exists to cause harm.
Are there downsides for the people who are doing this?
Are they going to, I mean, will it eventually come and bite them on the bum?
I guess I'm asking.
I think it does.
I think there is, they run their course and they ultimately implode.
And it might take a while, but it happens.
And that's why, you know, I encourage, especially newcomers, to the spiritual path of witchcraft, especially if they're younger in physical years, I encourage them to deflect and to just step aside when those blows come.
Because those people will just, like I said earlier, they'll create their own misery and implode.
And it won't happen on the time scale that you want.
They only prosper when you feed them and when you fuel them.
So when you pull out the plug, they're nothing.
Right.
Let's get back to the point of you now getting media attention.
It coming back to you.
The TV interviews may be media interviews of various kinds and that suggestion that those people are going to want something from you.
So they want a quick and simple guide to making my life great.
So in 2018, what is your message then to those people who don't understand about the stuff that you've lived your life with and by?
They want to learn, but more than anything else, they want a quick fix.
Well, I'm just going to say there isn't a quick fix and you're worth more than a quick fix.
So try harder and give yourself more of a chance than a quick fix.
Sounds good, but they're going to be wanting you to weave spells and do stuff like that, though.
How do you know though, Howard?
They may not.
They may hear what I say and go, huh.
Maybe I'll spend a moment thinking about all the really great things in my life because even though there's a lot of crap going on, there actually are some really good things and I'll focus on those and I'll allow, by observing them, the magic of my intention and the magic of my awareness of those good things that will allow them to flourish and grow stronger than the worst things and then they'll overtake and the dominant paradigm will shift and my life will be a joyous thing.
Do you regret the early use of magic that you say that you had?
Do you regret the wanting and the yearning that brought you things?
No, I think there's no regret.
I think, again, this is, you know, just being on the planet for a while and choosing to grow not older, but better at living and not to grow, become bitter or sick and to see my life as an ever-evolving celebration and miracle through all the good times and the bad times because I think differently about my life.
I don't have any regrets about the way I was when I was less experienced in a physical sense.
I think there's a necessary role that ego plays in our younger physical years as we kind of take our steps out into the world.
But there's a point where ego becomes a destructive force.
And if I had to put a timeframe on it, I'd say by your mid to late 30s, it's a good idea to be realizing that ego is not as important in your life anymore and shifting your perspective a bit.
And maybe, you know, some people do that naturally.
Maybe people raising families, you know, their life becomes about their children, less ego-driven of self.
But who knows?
It's like in my personal life, what I've learned is that I'm much more fulfilled now, not letting ego, my ego rule my life.
It's just there, but it more shows up as an essence of being willing.
My will is to be willing, willing to help others, willing to do something useful and willing to be grateful.
And life goes on and it's all right.
Whereabouts in the Caribbean are you?
I should have asked what island.
Well, right now I'm on St. Croix, which is, but I'm full-time living on St. Thomas.
How are you?
I'm on St. Thomas.
I love St. Thomas.
Well, that was kind of, it's the New York of the Caribbean in a way, but that's where my job ended up being once I got all my pilot ratings.
That was where the job was on St. Thomas.
So I went there to work.
But I consider St. Croix my Caribbean home.
I moved here six years ago and my dog that I rescued is here.
My island parents, the two people, Carol and Owen, that I ended up renting an apartment from, and sort of they adopted me like their daughter.
So now I'm kind of a member of the family.
They look after Fifi when I'm not here and they really are like my parents.
I feel very blessed.
I love them, you know, and they love me and I feel very grateful.
Well, it's never my life.
There's nothing greater in life.
It's just the simple things, like, you know, just having, rescuing a dog and she's so amazing and my island parents are so amazing.
And I'm actually sitting on this, you know, in the car because I have to drive to where there's phone signal to be on the edge of the ocean.
And I'm looking out at the pier, Frederixton Pier and the far pylon of the pier that goes out into the ocean.
I dived it yesterday, it's 70 feet.
And I freedived it yesterday with my girlfriend Mako.
And it's like fun to Just look at these things and think, oh, yeah, I was at the bottom of that pylon out there.
Now I'm talking to you on the radio, and I'll go and see my dog again.
And then I fly back to the other island in about an hour and a half, and life goes on.
Now, look, I've got to teach at the gym tonight.
I'm teaching a cycling class.
I teach spin as a part-time job because I love it.
And I have a full class with three weight listed tonight, and I've made an awesome playlist.
I can't wait to rock out with my cycling students.
Do you play your own music to them?
No, I just, I like, I take requests from them.
I haven't put any of my own songs in there.
It's kind of weird.
I don't know.
I just yell at them the whole time through the class.
They get to hear me yelling at them.
So that's as close as singing.
No, look, I used to have a little bit of a ritual in my own life when I did daily morning drive radio in London and I was on air to 3 million people every day.
I used to go into the bathroom and I've got a great big mirror in there in this very humble little apartment that I still live in.
And I would look at myself in the mirror and I would say, you are going to have a great day today.
And if I did that, I would.
So that was my ritual.
If you want to have a good day.
Fulfilling prophecy.
Okay, if you want to have a good day, what do you do?
You're a modern witch.
You know, it's interesting you bring that up because some mornings I wake up and there's like a fear in my heart.
And I have to remember that I used to wake up every day like that, dreading the day with great fear in my heart and fear of failure, fear of things going wrong, fear of not being good enough.
And occasionally it happens now.
And it happened this morning.
I woke up feeling it and it was great to just go, you know, you don't have to, it's okay.
Everything will be all right.
What will be will be.
Just one step at a time, one day at a time, one hour at a time.
And you can do this.
And these are all, it sounds so obvious, but once upon a time I would say, you're shit.
I'd look at myself in the mirror and go, good, but not good enough.
And it was this constant dialogue.
And I actually know, even I mentioned my cycling classes I teach, like, you know, the students come up to me after and they say they feel fantastic after class.
And, you know, a guy came up to me and said, Fiona, thank you for making me a better person.
And, you know, and they say to me that the affirmations that I scream at them during class with this pumping music, we're all sweating and ah, you know.
But they come up after and they go, you know, this is becoming my inner dialogue.
I realize I'm changing the way I think because I hear your voice telling me to have a great time.
And I do, you know, and it's like, and to be grateful.
And I just think it's, look, everyone knows everything about me.
It's all over the bloody internet.
You know, even my boss, even my boss said, I don't care what you call yourself, as long as you remember you're flying a plane, not a broomstick, and do your job properly, I'm fine with you working for us.
So, you know, I mean, it's kind of funny, but everyone knows everything these days.
There's nowhere to hide.
But my point is, is that, you know, you mentioned earlier, Howard, that listeners might say, oh, I want a quick fixed spell.
I just want that thing, you know, light that green candle and turn around three times, face the sun, bow three times, and pick up a stone and chuck it into the ocean and life will be perfect.
I mean, you're worth more than that.
And sometimes the hardest things to do are the little things, like just reminding yourself to do what you do.
Look at yourself in the mirror and say, you're going to have a great day.
You're all right.
Actually, you're better than all right.
You're awesome.
And go and have a great day.
The simple little things are the most magical.
They really are.
I've enjoyed our conversation and I'm very jealous of the location that you're in.
I don't know what my listener is going to make of this, but I found it absolutely fascinating.
If people want to read, if I haven't done you justice, if people want to read more about you, and there is, as you said, there's a lot about you on the internet, where's the best place to go?
Well, I think just go to my website, fionahorn.com.
There's links to all my social media platforms, my Facebook page, my Instagram, my Twitter, all that's there at Fionahorn.com.
Information about my books, about my autobiography, The Day of Witch, that came out last year, about the 20th anniversary, which a magical journey, which you have in your hands, how that's where that is.
There's links to getting them online.
There's links to more information.
There's even a link that if you want to chat with me and connect with me, you can click on that and send me an email.
I reply to everything.
So, you know, just, yeah, go to my website, FionaHorn.com.
That was a bit of a sticky start to our conversation with communication and stuff, but it was okay, wasn't it?
Yeah, it's all good.
Always works out if you let it.
There you go.
You think?
I knew it would.
Fiona, thank you very much.
Thank you, Howard.
Enjoy the rest of your day.
Thanks so much.
Fiona Horne.
And if you want to know more about her, I'll put a link to her website with information about her, details of her books, and details of her life and career on my website, theunexplained.tv.
We're out of time.
More great guests in the pipeline here on The Unexplained.
So until next we meet here online, my name is Howard Hughes.
I am in London, which just happens to be baking hot still.
But until next we meet here, please stay safe.
Please stay calm.
And above all, please stay cool and in touch.
Take care.
Thank you.
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