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April 1, 2014 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes
01:03:04
Edition 151 - Gary Mannion

Controversial show - "Psychic Surgeon" Garry Mannion and Tricia Robertson who has researchedhis claims.

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Across the UK, across continental North America and around the world, on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes and this is The Unexplained.
Well, by the looks of what's going on outside my window, spring has finally arrived in the UK.
Hopefully, temperatures up to the late 18 Celsius, what's that, the mid 60s Fahrenheit, and things may be improving.
I say may, because with the British weather, you never know what's going to happen next.
But whatever it is, I'm grateful for this slightly warmer phase, because if you listen to this show regularly, you know that I don't do cold.
I hate it.
If I could live in a warm part of the world, like San Diego or Cape Town or somewhere like that, I'd be there like a shot.
Thank you very much for all of your emails, the guest suggestions.
Keep them coming in.
I will name-check some of you in a future show.
I had one email that gave me cause for thought.
It was a guy in the US who accused me of being riotous.
I think he meant righteous.
Cocky, arrogant, all of those things.
Didn't like the way that I do the show.
Which made me wonder why was he listening to it?
You asked me, a lot of you asked me, to express my opinions on the show, which I've done.
More and more I do that because I'm big enough and old enough to have opinions and you share some of them.
And somebody's got to speak up, I think, for the small person in this world.
This is a small show done in a small way against or additional to the big corporations with their big corporate interests.
Somebody's got to speak up for us because we are the ordinary people and that is what I'm trying to do in a little way here in the UK and sending this show out across the world.
If you want to get in touch with me, go to www.theunexplained.tv.
That's my website, www.theunexplained.tv.
And you can send me an email through a link on there or make a donation to the show.
I don't have any money, as you know, so all the donations, very much needed to keep this work going for all the reasons we've just stated.
Thank you very much to Adam Cornwell, my webmaster at Creative Hotspot in Liverpool for his hard work on the show.
This time, we have two guests and a very controversial show, which I haven't shied away from, but we've had to try to do carefully.
We're going to talk to a rising star in the world of psychic surgery.
Now, this is a highly controversial field in which, let me tell you up front, there are a lot of charlatans and a lot of frauds and fakes.
We know that.
This man's getting a growing reputation in the UK, but what I'm going to keep saying throughout this show is before going to see him or anybody like him, and he agrees with this, you need to go the medical route and see your doctor first.
And we must make that point.
His name is Gary Mannion.
Wherever in the world you are, you may know him because he's done a European tour and now it's a world tour.
So Gary Mannion very soon.
And we'll also talk in Glasgow, Scotland, to the woman who spent five years intensively academically researching him and the results of his work, Tricia Robertson, who we've had on this show before.
So first of all, fingers crossed, let's not very far from where I am in London, let's cross now to Gary Mannion, psychic surgeon here on The Unexplained.
Gary, thank you for coming on.
Pleasure.
Now, Gary, you've been recommended to me by a number of people, and I know that one way or another, you've been approached by me and around me by a couple of people over this last year.
So I'm really pleased that we've been able to make this happen.
You are, or you describe yourself as a healer.
Is that so?
Yes, I'm mainly a psychic surgeon.
A psychic surgeon?
Yeah.
Okay.
What is one of those?
I've heard of one, but I'm not entirely sure what that person does.
So what is it that you do as a psychic surgeon?
So when I work, I see and feel hands go inside people's bodies and I tend to see and feel what's kind of going on inside the body.
At the same time, people will feel stuff happening inside the body.
So I actually see operations happening, things like that.
In the western part of the world, there is no blood or cutting, things like that.
That's more done in Brazil and the Philippines.
But it's just as effective.
Okay.
And of course, if you did try to involve blood and cutting or whatever it is they do in some of those parts of South America, I think here in the UK, you would have certain legal problems, wouldn't you anyway?
Yeah, you'd have the medical community straight onto you.
You would.
Where do we start with this?
Now, look, you are, I am told, a young guy.
24, is that right?
I'm 26 now.
I'm getting old.
Oh, you've got your whole life in front of you.
This is a remarkable thing for, I don't even know what part of the UK you're in, but it's a remarkable thing for a young guy to be doing, don't you think?
Yeah, it's definitely something I never planned to get into.
More kind of fell into it.
You fell into it.
You've got to tell me that story.
I'd always kind of involved in psychic and mediumship work.
I always had a passion for that.
And if I'm honest, I used to find healing quite boring.
I never wanted to be a healer, never had any interest in it.
So I went to do a bit of spiritual healing one day when I was 18 in Manchester and literally just started seeing hands go to people's bodies.
And it just kind of took off from there, really.
Okay.
Now, you are kind of compressing a lot of history that went before that, because presumably you were a young person who knew you were different.
Most psychics that I've spoken to realized that there was something about them quite young.
So presumably that is also your story.
Talk to me about the bit before you started doing this psychic surgery, this healing.
So apparently I used to see and talk to spirit from about the age of two.
Me personally though, I don't remember anything of my life before the age of 13.
And my very first memory is my dad taking me to the local spiritualist church.
I was sitting down the front, saw the medium tune in, and all of a sudden I heard a voice in my head saying, you can do that.
So of course, being 13, hearing voices in my head, I gave it a go.
And that kind of started me off with my kind of psychic mediumship pathway.
So yes, I started doing that mainly from about 13 onwards.
And then when I was 18, I was invited to Manchester to teach some psychic development.
And it was while I was teaching, the group I was working with asked me to do some spiritual healing with them.
So at the time, I just thought, you know, put your hands on someone, let the energy come through.
How hard can it be?
I definitely wasn't expecting to start seeing hands going in and operations happening.
It sounds remarkable.
And you were taken by your dad to a spiritualist church.
Yeah.
I know one other psychic medium he is doing very well in Los Angeles, Christian Dion, originally from Blackpool.
And Christian started by his dad taking him to what he calls, he always used to say, they used to take us to the local spoogy church, the local spiritualist church.
And that was how he got into it.
But I think there'd been a bit of a background of it in his family.
I think he was, I think rightly, if I remember rightly, he'll correct me on this.
He'll be the first to.
I think he was the seventh son of a seventh son.
There must have been, I would guess, a background of it then in your family?
I definitely come from a family that has voices, but I don't think any of them are working with spirit.
And as a child, as a young person, how did you first know that you could connect with something?
And what is it you thought you were connecting with then?
So literally my first memory ever is being at that church and hearing spirit.
So when you told me you remembered nothing before age 13, you mean that?
Yeah, literally nothing.
Complete blank up to 13.
That's a bit of a worry.
I've got memories going back to about three or four.
Yeah, it is very strange and there's various reasons why it could be.
But yeah, up to that point, it's a complete blank.
Have you ever talked to somebody medical about that?
When I did some work with the BBC, they sent me to the Priory because they had to assess that you weren't mental before they could start filming you.
And yeah, the guy there said, you know, it is strange, but it's perfectly normal.
Well, I wasn't mad as far as he was concerned, but yeah, it's just complete blank.
So your life up to 13 then, presumably there are family photographs and school records and stuff like that.
There's nothing there in your head.
Nope, I've heard lots of stories when I was younger and I get no memories with it.
I've met people who I knew before I was 13 and no memories of them.
And I'm not kidding around here, but how are you?
Do you get headaches and stuff like that?
I'm just concerned.
I've never heard a story of somebody forgetting or dumping or losing or whatever, erasing everything before 13.
Yeah, it is definitely a strange one, but no, from 13 onwards, kind of very normal or I suppose as normal as you can get talking to the dead, but yeah.
And you don't think in any way, and I'm presuming people have suggested it, but you don't think that perhaps this hearing voices is in some way connected with whatever caused you to lose your memory?
I personally think it's more of a physical thing.
So as a child, I was misdiagnosed.
Well, I think I was misdiagnosed with ADHD.
So the medication they put you on, one of the side effects can be memory loss.
So I feel it's probably more to do along that line.
So you're a hyperactive child, they gave you medication for it, and some people get a bit of memory loss, but you got a lot of memory loss.
Yeah, I got a complete blank.
And how does that leave you?
I'll move on to the healing.
Of course I will, but I'm just interested in how that leaves you when you've lost so much of your life.
I mean, I have memories of wonderful things, you know, holidays in the Lake District with my parents and trips to North Wales and going into Liverpool when I was a little kid holding my dad's hand.
I don't know what I'd do if I couldn't remember any of that.
To be honest, it doesn't really bother me at all, actually, because I don't remember.
It's a bit like if you didn't have it to begin with, then you don't know what you're missing.
So, because I don't remember what it's like to be 11, 12.
I don't miss it really.
I've been so busy since I've been 13.
I was about to say, you haven't really had time to think about it, have you?
All right.
Tell me about the hearing voices.
What do they do?
Do you hear a voice saying, turn left at the next junction, or a voice saying, tell this man here that his grandmother's okay in the spirit world?
Yeah.
So it's more the kind of, well, it was more the mediumship side.
So I'd be sitting in the church and I would hear the name David and father.
And then the medium would relay that same information.
And then from that, I would then go on and do reading.
So ideally looking to make contact with the spirit world and then pass messages on or evidence.
Nowadays, I focus more with the healing.
So Abraham, who's my main surgeon, he'll talk to me.
He'll explain what he's doing, what's happening, things like that.
I can hold conversations with him if I need to.
I hear him quite clearly.
I hear him as clear as anyone else talking to me.
And when did you start to do the actual healing of people and this surgery thing followed on?
When I was 18.
So it was all the things that happened from when you were 18.
And did somebody come to you?
And you told me the story of you tried it out and it seemed to work and you were as surprised as anybody else at what you were seeing and the result that it had.
But talk to me about that first time.
Yeah, so the group asked me to do some spiritual healing with them.
So I thought, yeah, sure, I'll give it a go.
I'll take part with them.
So we had this woman lying on the couch and I was instructed by the group to work on her stomach.
So I said, okay.
So I put my hands on her stomach, went to make a connection.
And all of a sudden, I felt this very strong presence behind me.
And I saw these hands go into her stomach and start pulling out what to me looked like mold.
So I said to her afterwards, look, this is probably going to make no sense to you, but I saw this mold getting pulled out of your stomach.
And she said, actually, it makes perfect sense.
I have to go to the hospital every now and then to get this food removed because I've got this digestive problem.
So I thought, strange, but okay.
And literally from then on, whenever I would do healing, I would again see these hands go in and in a sense operate.
How did you feel about yourself?
Did you feel that you must have felt that you were a bit unusual?
Again, literally, because even my first memory is talking to spirit, it's always been very natural to me.
Yeah, and even seeing hands go inside people's bodies, people say to me, you must have found that really weird or scary.
But no, at the time it just felt very natural.
Okay.
Well, I think for a lot of us, it would freak us out.
I think if that happened to me, I would think, what the hell is happening in my head?
Yeah.
But what you had was confirmation, you tell me, by somebody who was there and had clearly given that circle of people permission to operate and who claims that you fixed her.
And then thankfully, meeting up with Trisha and doing the research has helped document the work as well and gathered that evidence.
Quite remarkable stuff and very hard for a young guy of 18.
I remember what I was like when I was 18.
You know, I did not make the best decisions.
Very hard for you to keep your feet on the ground, isn't it?
I've been running companies since I was about 16.
So I was always used to being busy and getting out there, really.
Running company?
What sort of companies?
For my sins, I used to work for a home improvement company.
I used to run two of their branches when I was 16.
Back then, I also used to work in schools working with labeled kids, kind of trying to re-educate teachers and parents why kids are kind of acting the way they are.
So yeah, so I was already used to kind of mixing with people.
And obviously, I've been doing readings and platforms since I was 13.
So working with Spirit was very natural to me and was just another normal thing for me, really.
Sound like a very grown-up person used to taking responsibility.
This was Manchester.
You mentioned Manchester, so I'm guessing it was all in Manchester.
No, I'm actually brought up in London, but I must have started traveling around 18.
I started traveling around the UK, branching out a bit.
Right.
Right.
And how were you received?
If you told people who were not within your circle what you did and what you were claiming that you could do, friends and people like that, how would they react to it?
Amazingly, people don't take it so badly.
I mean, what I had supposed being young, a lot of people would think, you know, a lot of people would come to me and be like, I was expecting a 50, 60 year old man, not an 18 year old.
But with my work, I think the kind of the work speaks for itself, really.
Most of my clients come to me because they know someone that's been and had a result.
So at least they're already coming, knowing kind of what to expect.
And I think I can stand my ground.
Well, yeah, this is the one thing that you do radiate.
I remember when I was 26, I'd been on the radio for a few years already and I was doing big grown-up stuff.
But I still felt very young and I still didn't make the best decisions at that age.
You sound to me to be very, very mature, very grounded.
Thank you very much.
Well, it's what comes across from your voice.
You know that this whole field is incredibly controversial.
There are people in various parts of the world who claim to do this and a lot of them have been exposed as the most appalling frauds who just take people for a ride and extract money from them.
My opinion, if we look at the spiritual world, in my opinion, I think 90% of it is either misunderstood, based on ego, or fraud.
Sadly.
And that's kind of why I started doing the research with Tricia, because we need to gather evidence, especially if we want people like the medical community to understand us and to listen to us, then they're going to want that evidence.
And this research we're talking about is with Tricia Robertson, who's been on this show.
She's the psychic researcher in Glasgow, researches ghosts and other paranormal phenomena and does it in a very serious way.
An amazing woman, yeah.
She can definitely stand her ground as well.
That's an absolute fact.
And what sorts of tests were you put through with Tricia?
So with Tricia, every now and then I would go up to Glasgow and she would have a range of clients for me to treat.
They would be interviewed before and afterwards.
I would carry out the treatment and then she kind of followed them for five and a half years to see, did they get a result?
If they got a result, were they taking any other medication which could have caused it?
Where possible, can we get before and after x-rays?
And then she took it much further by over five and a half years, how many of them were backs?
How many of them were legs?
Does my healing work better on backs or livers or stomach problems?
So she kind of documented it all out and kind of gathered as much evidence as she could for that.
Okay, and I haven't seen the research.
I'm sure Tricia will show me the research, but you tell me a snapshot of how that research came out.
You sound very positive about it.
Yes, as far as I'm aware, we have a 90% success rate with everyone that's participated in that.
So yeah, so as far as I'm aware, I think back problems was our specialty or what we got the best results with.
But of course, back problems are something that can fix themselves mysteriously.
You know, I've had back problems over the years because I'm a tall guy.
So one day I can get out of the bath the wrong way and I can have pain for three weeks and then one day I'll just get up and it'll be fine.
By back problems, I mean more things like worn away discs, nerves that are damaged.
And how can you, that's fascinating.
How you say, how can you recreate a worn away disc?
I mean, wear and tear over years is wear and tear over years.
And nerve damage, listen, I can tell you about nerve damage because I have tinnitus and it stopped my career for one year.
Ringing in the ears, this is.
It followed an infection and I was desperate.
And this is very recently.
I only went back to work properly and I'm not even full-time now last October.
And that, as you know, is down to damage, they say, to the hair cells in the cochlea in the ear.
And it causes, for me, a high-pitched ringing.
It's hell.
Can you fix that?
It is something we worked with.
Well, Abraham works with the basis.
Your body built itself.
So given the right inspiration and stimulation, it can repair itself.
Thankfully, you said about nerves.
Nerves are Fantastic for the research because, in a lot of cases that we're dealing with, nerves shouldn't repair themselves.
So, if that person gets better, you can rule out placebo effect because medically, it should be impossible for that person to get better.
So, if they do get better, then statistically, that's fantastic.
Because the problem we have, if I had one fantastic case and we took that to a doctor, the doctor's either going to say, well, maybe that person didn't have that condition, maybe it was the wrong x-rays, things like that.
And we have had that.
So, with the research, we need to try and get hundreds of cases.
Because then when you look at hundreds of cases, statistically, it works out that it's more than just chance or fluke or just mistakes.
That I can understand.
You need to document it.
And you sound also, again, as part of this sounding very calm, which you do, you sound very comfortable about letting the researchers come in and do it.
There are people that I know who are in fields allied to yours who are not so keen on the researchers because they feel that they will not be able to perform the way that they want to perform when the researchers are there.
I'm very into being researched.
I know what I do.
I'm confident with what Abraham does and how it works.
And I'm very interested to kind of research how it works.
Amazing experience I had.
I was arguing with a scientist once who knew about the research and said to me, well, even if your healing can be proved scientifically, there's no proof that it's spirit doing it.
It could be that you've tapped into a part of the brain we don't normally use, and that's doing it.
So I asked him, well, how would I know the difference?
Because I want to know for myself.
And he said, have a brain scan while you work.
He said, if your brain pattern changes, it shows that it's your brain doing it.
He said, if you started getting outside influences, that would show an outside source, which could be spirit.
Yes.
So you're very comfortable about the idea of being researched and probed and investigated.
And of course, a man of science is going to say, well, if I can't accept the spiritual explanation, it must be something that your brain or electromagnetic waves are doing.
Yeah, which in theory it could be.
So I met up with a gentleman called Dr. Harry Oldfield, who does a lot of work with electromagnetic fields.
And he has a machine called the Mind Mirror.
So it records all the electronic signals coming from the brain.
So we went to his laboratory.
He hooked me up to the machine, turned it on.
It worked normally.
As soon as we asked Abraham to come forward, the machine stopped registering the signals.
They were too high for the machine to record.
And then it went berserk for about 10 minutes.
The moment we asked Abraham to step back, returned to normal.
So I asked Harry afterwards, what does it mean?
And basically, he said the only way I could get the same result would be to put one machine on 10 people.
What the machine was doing is it was trying to record multiple brainwaves, which would show an outside source.
It shows it wasn't just my brain doing it.
Unless, of course, you have some remarkable capacity within that brain of yours, which has already shown itself to be different, to generate multiple brainwaves that science doesn't understand yet.
This is also a possibility as well.
Yeah.
And yeah, I'm very into scientific research.
The only problem you've got is you've got a skeptic, which is fine.
I don't mind skeptics as long as they're willing to change their opinion if the evidence is shown to them.
What you get with some scientists is it doesn't exist.
It can't exist.
Nothing you show me is going to change that opinion.
So when I went back to this scientist and showed him the recordings, showed him the research, asked him what he thought, he said, well, at the moment you asked ARAM to come through, somebody downstairs or across the road may have turned on a microwave and the microwave did it.
So some people will try and explain it away regardless.
And of course, if that scientist wanted to do that very thoroughly, then that scientist would go around the area trying to find out if somebody had turned on a microwave.
So we want to now try and repeat that experiment, something called a Faraday cage, which should stop any outside intervention.
Faraday cage, big metal box that stops all radio waves or anything electronic getting in.
If we do it on a bigger scale, which I would like to, we would probably use a university in London who's got an ECG machine.
So hook me up to an ECG and then put me in a Faraday cage.
And when we ask Abram to come forward, see if we can get the same result.
Right.
Well, that's the next stage.
But what you've got so far is some pretty good research.
And I want to talk about the testimonials you've had in a while because there are some fulsome testimonials for you on YouTube and other places.
So I want to get into some of those.
We haven't talked about Abram.
Now, who is Abram?
Where does he come from?
So Abram claims to have lived on earth just over 3,500 years ago.
He was born in a place called Yur, which is in Iraq.
He wasn't a healer in life.
He used to apparently lead tribes.
So I know he's been to Egypt, but never seen the pyramids.
Healing is something that he got into, apparently, from spirit side of life.
And then he picked me to act as his channel to kind of direct that healing through.
Okay.
And have you been able to do any research on somebody called Abram or the place where he said he was or anything that might substantiate that?
I haven't yet.
I've been more, for me, I'm more interested at the moment to kind of verify and get scientific evidence for the work itself rather than Abraham, because I don't want to get caught up in the kind of ego of, you know, this is Abraham.
He's amazing.
And he's very much that it should be more about the work itself.
So I haven't researched yet, but one day I plan to.
I think you should, because it is one of the things that people who want to be skeptical about this and who will send me emails saying, what have you got this guy on for?
He's a dangerous fake.
It's one of the things that would give you a backstory and would say, well, look, here's the documentation.
There's the research that was done via Tricia Robertson.
And we're going to do more research.
And here's some background on the place where Abram came from.
And, you know, this may be absolutely bona fide.
You see it for yourself and make a decision rather than them just say to you, you're a fake.
Yeah, no, that's understandable.
Are you accepting, though, of the power of the human mind?
I have seen in my own life multiple cases where if you decide a thing, if you decide I am getting better now, in some cases, by no means all, you do get better.
You do improve.
Yeah.
The power of the mind is an amazing thing.
I've seen people make amazing recoveries just through the power of the mind.
And that's why with the research, it's so important to try and document things that medically should be impossible.
Again, the severed nerves, no matter how much you want a nerve to get better, if it's severed, it's severed.
That should be medically impossible.
The body's not got the ability, apparently, to repair itself.
So cases like that then go outside that placebo effect.
There's a case in the paper today, I don't know whether you've seen it, of a man who was in such nerve pain that he actually amputated because the health service here in the UK refused to do it for him.
He amputated his own hand, which I certainly don't recommend anybody tries.
The guy was terribly ill afterwards.
He lost a couple of pints of blood and had to be rushed to hospital.
He got rid of the hand.
He hopes the nerve pain will go.
Let's not talk about him specifically, but if somebody like him came to you and said, look, I've got terrible nerve pain in my arm, my hand, drugs don't work for it.
Will you help me?
Would you give it a go?
I would definitely, yeah, I would definitely do all I can to try and help.
People have a misconception with people who come for healing.
People think that people who come for healing are desperate or vulnerable.
And actually, it's not really the case.
Normally, most of my clients that are kind of at that stage, they've done everything they can medically.
In a lot of cases, they've actually gone and been made worse by the health service, who have now turned around and said to them, nothing more we can do with you.
You're going to have to live with that pain.
Or you're going to have to go home and die, or you're going to have to go home and never walk again.
So they're normally quite intelligent.
They've been down every route.
They've researched what they've got and they've tried everything.
And only now are they trying healing.
And in a lot of cases, it tends to work for them.
Well, that is the way that if anybody gives this a go, surely that is the way it should be, because you really do have to go to the doctors first.
We get into all sorts of trouble if we say that they should be coming to somebody like you first.
Go to the doctor first.
And then if all else really does fail, then maybe come to you.
Yeah, psychic surgery should be an add-on or used alongside medical treatment.
But psychic surgery has a terrible bad rap.
We talked about people in various parts of the world.
There are various practitioners who've been extensively investigated.
They've done documentaries about them.
And some of these people have been caught.
There are a lot of fakes out there, especially if you go to Brazil or the Philippines.
There are hundreds of fakes out there, sadly.
Normally using pig's blood and chicken's guts because they look a lot like human.
But again, if you look at any field, you're going to have the people who are fake who are taking advantage.
You have got your genuine ones, though.
Normally it's the ones that are not so bloody that tend to be the genuine ones.
But yes, sadly, there are a lot of fakes out there.
And there have been cases, you know, cases of famous people who've gone to so-called psychic surgeons who've tried to do this stuff and they've been seen, they've been caught holding giblets and pig's blood, like you say, and all sorts of stuff and spurting it all over the place so it looks realistic.
And the person goes away and they die anyway.
Of course they do.
When I do my talks and demonstrations, I have a video of a Brazilian psychic surgeon who is genuine.
And I've got some video of fakes.
And I'd like to show the public the two because you can see the difference.
You can see the genuine and you can see the fake.
And when you actually put them together, you can see how very different they are.
Well, you said to me that there is, for one, less blood with the genuine article.
Genuine psychosurgery where they cut, spirit can control the blood flow.
So you don't get lots of blood spewing out everywhere.
It's the fake ones where the blood especially looks very runny because it's watered down.
They tend to be more the fake ones.
How do you stop yourself getting sued, Gary?
First of all, I don't claim anything.
Thankfully, in all the years I've worked, we've never made anyone worse.
We've never injured anyone or caused harm to anyone.
And what about promises?
I can't make any promises.
Even with the research, I could treat two people with the exact same condition.
One may find that they feel completely better afterwards, and one may feel that they need more appointments, or one may feel no response whatsoever.
Everyone's completely different, so I can't make any guarantees, sadly.
And there will be people, and I can understand why they might say this, that you, even if you don't promise anything, you give desperate people hope, people who are going to die, and some of the people you see must die anyway if they're terminally ill.
You give them hope that they, by rights, shouldn't really have what they should be doing is planning for the next phase.
And what you're doing is implicitly, although not verbally, promising them something else.
A lot of my clients who are terminal, one thing with terminal is if it is someone's time to go, then healing is not going to stop that.
I've seen people who were terminal that for whatever reason went into remission and went on to lead a nice normal life after they were told that they only had three months left to live.
But in cases, it is someone's time.
In those cases, in that case, we're not really trying to prolong life.
We're trying to make the transition more smooth.
But if there's a natural order, and you were getting to it then, and I'm sorry for interrupting, but we've got to put it this way.
If there was a natural order to things and there was a time for everybody, which I believe there is, in some cases, you intervene and you fix it.
But if they hadn't come to you, they'd have gone anyway.
Aren't you messing with the whole continuum?
I think no one goes before they're meant to, as you said.
So it was in their story that they were meant to come to you?
In essence, yeah.
I think that that's the path where they chose to go, that they would get healing and that would open them up or the people around them up to the possibility that healing does work and can help.
And, you know, I've had some fantastic cases where we knew the person was going to die, but they passed without any pain.
They had enough time to say their goodbyes and to do what they needed to do.
And also, most importantly, they were ready to pass over.
They didn't have that fear of dying.
Or in some cases, they were already seeing spirit before they went, which took away any fear.
And I think that's just as important as prolonging life.
Well, that's a very interesting thing that you just said, because in so many cases, including my own grandfather and other cases in my own family, and it's very, very common, isn't it?
The person before they die, my granddad, I'm thinking of him in Bootle, Liverpool, he was in terrible pain with stomach cancer.
And then towards the very end, he started to see relatives who'd passed.
Yeah, it's getting very common nowadays.
And again, most people don't know about it or hear about this unless you've had a personal experience.
A lot of people don't know how common it is.
Well, my dad, I lost him last year, but he used to tell us a story of how my granddad, who died when I think I was about 11, and my dad and his father were very, very close.
So he was tremendously distressed when his father died because they were that close.
But I can remember him lying there.
And in these days in Liverpool, what they would do with somebody who was very sick is bring the bed downstairs in one of these terraced houses.
And that's where he was.
So everybody came to visit him.
And I can remember there was a curtain behind him.
They had one of these shelves in a little cubby hole and a curtain over it, not a cupboard door.
And that curtain, I think my father said it moved, but he certainly told me a story about how his father, whose name was also my dad's name, he said that a relative had come and then another relative and then a child who'd been born that my father hadn't even known about, who died very young.
That child came as well.
It was an astonishing story, which I'm not telling very well.
But it was the kind of stuff you couldn't really make it up.
Yeah.
And there's loads of cases that I've heard so many cases of it and I've experienced it myself with clients and with friends who have passed.
And back to the kind of give me false hope thing.
My stance is, you know, we are all going to go at the same time, but it's not my place or anyone's place to give anyone a death sentence.
I mean, there's a lot of evidence of people who have been told that they had cancer three months to live.
They die three months later.
And in the autopsy, it turned out they didn't actually have cancer.
But because they were told by a doctor who they trusted that they were going to die in three months, the body shut itself down.
And so every day doctors are giving out death sentences.
You know, you'll never walk again.
So you're already destroying any chance in the brain to make the body promote healing or also get better.
And the body is an amazing thing.
And I said, I have seen lots of cases where people shouldn't be here now and they are and they're leading normal lives.
But of course that happens with orthodox medicine anyway.
Yeah, it can.
But I said we're getting people who are terminally ill.
And as I said, it's normally the people who are told that they've got three months and then and believe that and give up on the rest of their life that tend to pass three months later.
I mean, I know somebody who at Christmas was told that her mother was going to die.
She was in hospital and the family were told to prepare for the mother to die over the Christmas period, which these things often happen at those times.
It's terribly poignant.
And I can remember saying, I don't think your mother is going to die.
She will come out of hospital.
And no one believed that.
And she is, as we record this, it's now nearly April, still alive.
She's out of hospital.
Yeah.
And healing, that's what we're looking to do.
So we're not giving anyone false hope, but where there is a possibility that we can help make that person stay a bit longer and more comfortable, then that's what we're aiming to do.
Somebody comes to you and they say, I'd like you to help me.
I'd like to think, and I hope you do.
The first question you say is, have you seen a doctor?
Do you ask them that first?
Oh, yeah, of course.
Yeah.
I always make sure that people are going to their doctor and that they continue with their medical treatment, especially when they're on things like tablets, because coming off medication can have a horrible effect on the body.
So it should always be done with a doctor's approval.
And even from, again, from an evidence point of view, I would like that person's doctor to see that they're improving and to document that.
And many doctors that I know, many doctors that I've spoken to, will actually on the quiet say, that's okay.
If you want to do that as well, then if it gives you solace, if it gives you comfort, fine.
Yeah.
And I have a lot of doctors that have told their clients that.
But I'm happier knowing that that person is still under their doctor.
Because again, from an evidence point of view, if that person gets better and the doctor is monitoring them, at least then they can send them for the X-rays, which again is evidence for me.
So it's all helpful.
But yes, so everyone should still stay with their medical doctors and continue their treatment.
I'm talking to you because you're getting a growing reputation.
More and more people are telling me about you, and I'm sure that your reputation a year from now will be even bigger.
Are you getting rich out of this, Gary?
Oh, it'd be nice.
But you do take money from people.
Yes, I do.
I do charge unless somebody is in a position where they can't afford, in which case there is no charge.
Should you be taking money for this?
Yeah, it allows me to do this for a living.
If I had to get a job, it means I'd be able to treat maybe one or two people a day.
By able to do this full-time, I'm able to treat a lot more people.
I'm able to get around the world and treat people around the world.
Where have you done that?
I've been most of the world now.
Yeah, most of the world I've covered, I think.
And what about America?
America, the country where there are a million practitioners of a million different things, the most litigious country on earth.
They'll serve you with a lawsuit very quickly if they're not quite happy with you.
You've done America, have you?
Okay.
Purely because I haven't worked in America yet.
No, I would like to purely because, again, from the evidence point of view, I'd love to do some research out there.
And is that because there's a lot of competition there or because maybe somebody might sue you there or just because it hasn't worked out?
Again, it's...
If we look at the mediumship in the UK compared to what it was, say, 80, 90 years ago, so many people do a weekend course and then set themselves up as a medium.
And then the following week, they're teaching.
So the quality of mediumship is very bad nowadays.
And I have heard that it's even worse than that in America because you've got every week someone's creating a new course or a new form of healing or a new form of mediumship.
And then people are teaching it the following week.
But why should that affect you going there?
I would like to go there and do some research.
So I actually started documenting it and started getting some evidence and building it up that way.
And it's not because you're afraid of somebody landing you with a million-dollar lawsuit?
No, it would be interesting to see.
But again, we've never made anyone worse or harmed in any way.
Right.
And it would be interesting to see a case somewhere, wouldn't it, where somebody stands up who says they're a healer and then has to be disproved as not being a healer in court.
That would be an interesting one to see, wouldn't it?
It would be a very interesting case.
There's been cases in Brazil with genuine psychic surgeons.
A very famous one was Ariga.
But again, if we look at genuine psychic surgery, even in Brazil where they cut, there has never been a case of infection, which is why they're still practicing nowadays.
If they harmed someone, if I harmed someone, it would be front page news.
So I wouldn't be able to practice.
The fact that eight years later I'm still working shows that I really haven't injured someone or made anyone worse.
It's a very, very controversial area that you're working in, though.
Do you never lose sleep about that?
No, I love the work I do.
I love seeing the results.
And again, it's a very personal thing.
You know, all I can really say to someone is to try it for yourself or see it for yourself.
You know, I see everyday results of people which make it worthwhile.
It makes me love what I do.
And those testimonials, I mean, I look at them and I think, well, yeah, they could have been faked.
I don't know.
But they look pretty genuine.
And that's all I have to go on.
I haven't met them.
I don't know them.
You know, they look pretty genuine, the ones that I've seen.
And you've helped people with a variety of things they say.
Yeah, I can assure you every testimonial on there is true and honest to the person's own opinion who recorded it.
They've not been asked to say anything, just give their own opinion.
I'm going to try and get a lot more from against.
I've been trying to get from different countries as well to show that, you know, it's not just a few people in Essex or London, but it is all over.
You are a resilient sounding guy.
I'm sure you are.
The problem with doing what you do, and there have been other famous cases of healers and other people, they get more famous and you're getting more media attention.
You've said the BBC have been interested in you.
Others will be interested in you too.
Once the spotlight comes on you, you're going to face all the criticism.
And we've discussed some of those criticisms here, so you know what they are.
Are you tough enough, big enough, and strong enough to take that?
I like to think so.
And I am very, very, very up to testing and documenting.
I'm very passionate about that.
If anything, to make it more credible, not just what I do, but the whole industry itself.
And I said, I openly say 90% of stuff out there I think is rubbish.
So I want to try and set myself apart from that, to show people who think it is all rubbish that actually, no, there is some genuine there and there is evidence for that.
I'm very up for that.
So if there's a scientist or somebody perhaps connected to a research institute, I have some of those people listening to this show, mostly in America, I have to say, if they are up for the challenge of measuring and testing you, would you be up for the challenge of having that done?
I would absolutely love to.
If anyone is listening and interested and can set something like that up, I would love to do it.
We're in talks at the moment with some people in Australia.
We're about to hopefully start some testing there this year.
So yes, I'm very up to, because even for myself, I love to see the results and I love to document it.
So it's just literally, it's normally just getting the funding to do it.
This thing about being in the public spotlight, being broadcast about and written about, very relevant.
There's at least one case in the UK of a very famous healer, not a psychic surgeon, but a healer who got a lot of media attention when I was a teenager.
He was always on the TV and he was constantly there.
And now he's decided to recede from the limelight and carry on his work.
I wonder if that's what's going to happen to you.
You'll have your period in the limelight and then you'll say, okay, because of the brickbats, because of the critics and everything else, and because I just want to get on with my work, I just want to go and recede somewhat, fade a little.
Yeah, I mean, I don't, if somebody asks me to work somewhere, I will.
You know, I don't go around contacting magazines and saying, would you do an interview with me?
If they get in touch, I'm happy to talk about what I do and to do an interview for them.
For me, I'm interested in my work and treating as many people as I can.
And again, even the scientific research, the main reason for doing it is purely interest for myself as well.
I would love to document it for myself.
So I will keep doing it for as long as I can and as long as Abraham keeps helping people, really.
I told you about Mitinitis.
A lot of people have this.
Millions have it.
They're doing lots of research.
Every so often there's a story in the Independent newspaper or the Daily Mail saying they're getting closer.
The latest one was that they're talking about a drug that potentially can regrow these damaged hair cells in your cochlea, in your ears.
And that's all very positive.
And people like me, we live on hope like that.
I have to tell you that I got so desperate having been told by the medical profession, there is nothing that we can do.
You just have to learn to live with this, learn ways to sleep.
We'll give you pills if you need help with that.
Try stopping the coffee, which for somebody who works in broadcasting early in the morning is impossible to do.
Do this, do that.
I've had to learn to habituate to it because the National Health Service here could do nothing.
No one seems interested.
No one seems able to do anything.
And I consulted a healer, okay?
And the healer came back to me, and we won't name any names, and said, better that you don't waste your money.
we've really had no success with tinnitus.
So there's nothing, there is, As a healer?
There are things you can't do.
Everyone's different.
I think I'd be surprised with something I haven't treated these days.
But yeah, everyone's different.
As I said, I could treat two people with the exact same condition.
One may make a full recovery after one treatment.
One may not.
It's really down to the individual, really.
But if somebody came to You and said, Look, I had a problem with my leg.
I've been in pain for years.
I came to you last resort.
I've been to all the surgeons, the doctors, they say they can't help, got to live with it.
They'll give me pills.
I came to you, did some sessions with you.
It hasn't helped.
I want my money back.
Would you give it to them?
Yeah, if it genuinely didn't help, what would also be important is that they followed the aftercare advice.
So, for example, if we fix someone's back, if they're going to go out the following day and start building, start moving stuff around, they're going to undo the healing, just as if they had surgery.
And sadly, with that kind of 10% no success rate, I think that's what makes up a lot of it, people who don't follow the aftercare advice.
But yeah, if someone genuinely didn't get a result, I always ask people, if you don't get a result, please get in touch and we'll try and find out what's happening, what's going on.
Of course, it is easy for somebody who perhaps is not sure whether they can do what they claim they can do to say, oh, you didn't follow the aftercare.
Oh, no, no.
If someone genuinely had followed the aftercare, then yes, of course, I would happily give them their money back.
But if we worked on someone's lungs and they're going to go straight outside and smoke a packet of cigarettes and when I advise them not to, then that's going to undo what the body is trying to do to repair itself.
Of course, there were eras in this country where you would be in trouble with the law, really, for doing this.
There were times not that very long ago when you would have been in real serious bother.
There are still some parts of the world where healing is illegal, especially psychic surgery.
Sadly, yeah.
But thankfully I'm allowed to work.
Again, I would like to do more research and get more evidence with it.
But yeah, thankfully I'm allowed to work.
And Gary, when people come to see you, do you make them sign a disclaimer?
You know, a legal form that says, you have no comeback on me?
We do have a disclaimer form, but I haven't really used it for a couple of years now.
I make it very clear to someone to come.
I can't make any guarantees.
We'll do all we can to help.
Just like I never tell someone that they have to come back for another appointment.
I always say, see how you feel.
If you found an improvement, but you're not 100% yet, come and see us and we'll see if we can improve it some more.
If you are 100%, you don't need to come back unless you need to top up or whatever.
And if you get no result, get in touch and we'll try and find out why.
Have you ever come across anybody exactly like you doing the stuff that you're doing elsewhere?
Yeah, there are a few other psychic surgeons in the UK.
I got the chance to spend a few weeks working out with a very well-known psychic surgeon in Brazil.
That was amazing.
But yeah, so I've met a few.
I suppose what I'm coming around to asking is, you know, all of us in our lives at times get sick.
And eventually, you know, what we get might kill us.
If you found yourself ill, and I hope that that never happens, or if it ever did happen, it happens very, very, very late in your life.
Would you go to a psychic surgeon?
Would you try and operate on yourself?
For me, my own personal opinion, I would go more a natural route before allopathic, personally.
Not saying anyone else should do that, but that's what I would like to do personally.
And partly why I think healing should work with medical is with the Western world.
We have a kind of philosophy medically that if you've got a kidney problem, we'll give you this tablet.
It's going to destroy your liver, but don't worry about that.
When your liver's destroyed, we've got a tablet for that.
That will stop you sleeping, but then we'll give you a tablet for that.
But that will then affect your bladder.
And that tends to be the kind of Western world that we're given drugs for most conditions, which have horrible side effects and actually tend to make us worse in the long run.
Well, there are people out there and some quite credible people who say that the drugs are killing people more than the conditions.
Yeah, there is.
You know, look at the polio vaccine.
More people have got polio from the vaccine than people just getting polio.
So there's a lot of research now going on in hospitals.
I think there's one in Liverpool where they're actually giving the patients in the hospital healing as well as the medical treatment.
And that is apparently showing some very good results.
That's good.
I wonder, I would doubt it, but who knows whether a hospital in our health system here would ever call you in?
No, I can go in if the patient calls me.
Really, can you?
Have you?
Yeah, I've been into hospitals before where patients have asked me to go in.
And what do the hospital staff say to you when you go in?
Because they'll know you're a psychic surgeon.
What will you say to them and what will they say to you?
Yeah, normally they're fine.
Once or twice I've had to say I'm their priest to get in.
But generally they're fine with it, really.
Some understand it, some don't, but they're very accommodating.
I'm a bit worried about you saying you're the priest, though.
Do you not feel that's false pretences?
Once or twice to get into the hospital, the person had to say, because the nurse was a strict Christian, so didn't believe in healing.
So in that case, that person's free rights were taken away from them because of that person's belief.
But you're saying there are some hospitals that have been quite happy with you being there, even though they have known that you're a psychic surgeon.
Yeah, nine out of ten times, if a patient wants healing in hospital, then that's their right.
And yeah, most hospitals have been very accommodated with that.
Well, I would tend to think as long as the person is compass mentis, as long as they know what they're saying and doing, then they should be allowed to have whatever they want.
Yeah.
And yeah, I've not really had any major problems with hospitals.
I've never had a hospital turn me away or say no.
2014, you're a very, very busy guy, so I was lucky to get this conversation with you.
What's in the diary?
What are you going to do this year?
So I've been doing mainly kind of European tour for the last year or two.
I'm going more onto a world tour now.
Got a few trips to Australia, where we're hopefully going to start some scientific research out there and just keep touring, really, at the moment.
And you know that what you're doing is highly controversial.
Religious people will be very much against you.
I presume some of them will be anyway.
I'm certain of that.
Other people will think that it's just a bad idea.
Give me your killer argument for them, for the people who will email me and say, it was very irresponsible of you to have this man on, despite the caveats you put in, Howard, you shouldn't have had him on.
What would you say to them?
I'll use a very quick story that Tricia once told me when I was filming with the BBC, the BBC said to Tricia, look, if there's all this evidence out there for mediums and healers and all the rest of it, why isn't it mainstream news?
Why are you getting scientists on TV saying that there's no evidence?
And her response was, which I thought was fantastic.
If you're a biologist, you're going to tend to know everything about biology, but you're not necessarily going to know everything about physics because it's not your science.
Unless psychical research is your field of expertise or your science, you're not going to know any more about it than the average person.
So when you see these people on TV saying there's no evidence for psychics and mediums, they don't know.
They've not done their research.
So for most skeptics, when they're saying there is no evidence, they're basing it on what they've heard a physicist talking about who doesn't know what they're talking about.
I would say to those people, actually look at the research.
You know, the video I've got of this psychic surgeon in Brazil, in the video, everyone in that video is a German scientist or surgeon who have been sent to research this guy.
And they've got fantastic evidence, all documented, yet most people don't know it exists.
So I would say to actually, you know, if you are skeptical, that's fine, but look at the research because there's a wealth of evidence for psychic surgery, which shows that it does work and it has some amazing results.
And we have to say at the end of this, because we've said it a few times, and if I was on radio, then I'd certainly have to keep on saying this.
I'm not even sure whether we could do this, but I suspect we could.
But I'd have to say, remember, before you consult anybody else, go the medical route first.
Of course.
Always have your doctor on board.
Gary, listen, I'm grateful to you.
Thank you very much for doing this.
If people want to know more about you, where do they go?
Where do they look?
GaryManion.com or add me on Facebook.
Okay, that was Gary Mannion.
Let's connect with Glasgow now.
And he mentioned Tricia Robertson, who is the person who does a lot of research about the paranormal, ghosts and psychic phenomena of various kinds.
And of course, she's interested in Gary's work and has been part of this research.
Tricia, it's highly controversial, though, isn't it?
I had misgivings about putting somebody like this on the show.
But he does put a very convincing case.
He is getting more and more successful and famous with it.
So he is worthy of research, yes?
He is absolutely worthy of research.
And it was myself, it was just myself that conducted a five-year study of two healers, Gary Mannion and another lady called Nina Nolans.
And in that five-year study, I took with me in most cases, not always, Professor Archie Roy just as a witness to what was happening.
And Professor Archie Roy possibly the most famous psychic investigator in Scotland.
Oh yes, he certainly would be.
He passed away just about 14 months ago, but yes, quite certainly.
But Archie was there for the credibility factor to see what was going on.
With spiritual healers, you have to realize that people go to a spiritual healer actually once they've been to the doctor, once they've been everywhere, and they're not getting any betterment through conventional means.
And most people that come, even in the research program, come because they've got some condition that is receiving no betterment through normal means.
And they're always told, as with anything like mediumship, there is never any guarantee.
But what we can say is that these healers are receiving a great measure of success with what they do.
Now, I always go in evidence.
You know that's my motto.
I'm all about the evidence.
It's the same, whether it's mediumship or spiritual healing, psychic surgery, whatever.
But there's absolutely no doubt about it that after studying 130 cases between Gary and Nina, 101 people of these felt betterment.
Now I use the word betterment, feeling better in some way.
And it's not just a case of losing a headache.
Some people come in and they can't put their foot down on the floor.
But mind over matter can be a very powerful thing.
Absolutely.
I totally agree with that.
Because look at those preachers in America, the ones who say, I will heal you.
I'll put my, and they lay hands on the person's head and that person stands up and everybody goes, hallelujah.
And that is why I continue to monitor the patients after they've had their healing.
That is why it's a five-year study where I keep in touch with people afterwards to see how things are going.
And one particularly, this seems a very small case, but to me it's very evidential.
There was a youngish lad, I think he was 40 at the time, had a genetic glaucoma.
And that's about maybe six, seven years ago now.
And with genetic glaucoma, there was no betterment for it.
What they try and do is keep it as it is.
And he'd been going since, oh, for years and years to the hospital for checkups.
And they did whatever they do for genetic glaucoma.
And I know nothing, his readings in his eyes, the pressure in his eyes was something like 16 in one eye and 14 in another.
Now, after the healing that he got as part of the research program, the next time, about a fortnight later, he went back to the hospital and his pressure had dropped, which is what you wanted to do, had dropped from 16, 14 down to 14 and 12.
But I went to the doctor and had my blood pressure checked a little while ago, only a month or so ago, and my blood pressure was medium high.
And she said, this is not good.
Let's try it again.
So I did some deep breathing and I calmed down a bit and I told myself, drop your blood pressure.
And it went down.
That's true, but blood pressure and eye pressure are completely different things.
The pressure in your eye, you can't do that sort of thing.
And the rest of that story is it has maintained at 14 and 12 since the healing with Gary.
Whereas for about the 10, 15 years before that, every time he had gone, the pressure would kept going up.
The doctors more or less said they didn't understand, but that was good.
Of course, he never told them that they'd been for a healing with a spiritual healer.
But there are many, many.
I mean, there are 130 conditions that we couldn't possibly go through.
Certainly, some of them.
There is a lot of psychology in some of them, but not all of them.
There is an awful lot of trickery and fakery in the world of psychic surgery.
And even if Gary is exactly what he says he is and what research seems to be showing that he might be, Are you not afraid that that's going to bring out of the woodwork hundreds of people who are going to start saying, I'm going to be like Gary Manion?
They might actually delude themselves into believing they are, or they might be charlatans, crooks, and frauds.
And this is going to do enormous damage.
Actually, laying hands on someone shouldn't really do any damage, even if it doesn't do any good.
But I can't speak for other people.
I can only speak for Gary Manion and Nina, the two that the likes of George Chapman and Harry Edwards, Arrigo, all the famous healers of the past, the people who have been shown to have this particular talent.
There are charlatans in everything.
There are charlatans in motor mechanics, painters, even ordinary doctors.
Some are not very good.
Some are better than others.
I was very surprised when Gary told me that he'd actually gone into some hospitals.
He'd been allowed to go into some hospitals.
Some of them he'd had to pretend to be a priest.
And a lot of hospitals, he says, have let him in if the patient has wanted him there.
Yes, hospitals are letting in what we call, I would call ordinary spiritual healers as well.
I mean, there's a National Federation of Spiritual Healers, and there's another group of healers.
I can't remember the title of it.
But yes, these people are being allowed into hospitals now.
They are being allowed in.
Gary wants to do more research.
He wants to be more intensively researched and he's very, very open to that.
And there's a possibility, I think, that he might go to Australia to do that.
Presumably you welcome more research on him.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yes, but once again, every person is different.
And this is the whole problem.
What I found with the research program was people with emotional, strangely enough, people with emotional problems do not react very well, particularly well, to healing.
It's as if they want to hold on to the emotional problem.
And the emotional problems do not get a good result, which you would think would be the opposite way around.
You would think an emotional person would say, oh yeah, I'm fine now, I'm better.
That doesn't seem to work.
What Gary is very good at time and time again are skeletal problems, muscle problems.
Yeah, he told me back problems.
Back problems, all of that.
He's excellent at that.
And what happens is some people come for healing in the program who have got a medical background.
Now, Gary at the time was only 20, 21 years of age with no knowledge of anything medical whatsoever.
But he could often put his hands in someone and say, give a medical sort of diagnosis as, oh, your problem, I can feel your problems in your kidneys.
But the person might not have told them that.
And quite often he'll tell somebody something and they say, no, that's not the problem.
And later on, they find that Gary was right when he says, I want you, Gary will often say to them, I want you to go to your doctor.
There was one case where a lady was having a healing and her daughter was in the same room.
The daughter was wearing long trousers.
And without even looking at the daughter, Gary pointed and said, you have got a growth, a small growth in your leg.
I want you to go to the doctor now and have that checked.
Well, I don't know how you explain that.
But the point is, after that, the girl did take his advice, went to the doctor, and it was an early melanoma, which the doctor was able to treat because it was there early.
Now, he didn't even look at it.
That's what I'm saying.
It's not just a broad spectrum brush with anything.
And every patient is different, and that is the problem.
Every condition is different.
Every reason for the complaint is different.
But all I can say is after studying Gary and Nina in sometimes in very close conditions, there is definitely something in it, as there was with Arrigo, George Chapman, and all of these other people.
Tricia Robertson in Glasgow, Scotland, and before that, you heard Gary Mannion.
I know this will be a controversial show.
I'd love to get your thoughts on it.
Send me an email now through the website, www.theunexplained.tv.
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