The Unexplained - Howard Hughes - Edition 111 - Exo Vaticana

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April 10, 2013 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes

01:07:52

Edition 111 - Exo Vaticana

Cris Putnam and Tom Horn have been investigating what the Vatican knows about UFOs andETs...

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	Across the UK, across continental North America and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes and this is The Unexplained.
	Thank you for returning to the show.
	Spring is nearly here in the northern hemisphere.
	We had a long, cold, snowy winter up here, and now things are beginning to improve.
	The blossoms are starting to appear where I live and the temperatures are starting to climb.
	And by next week, they're telling us the temperatures ought to be around 20 degrees in some parts of the UK.
	That's 68 Fahrenheit, 20 Celsius.
	That's not bad.
	Let's hope it happens.
	Still some rain to come, though, so that's the weather report.
	Thank you very much for your emails.
	I'm going to name-check quite a few of you in the next edition of The Unexplained if we can fit those things in.
	But be assured that I'm acting on all of your emails, making contact with various people, some of them very keen to come on the show.
	A little bit of foot-dragging in some quarters, but I'm very persuasive, so hopefully we'll be able to get those people on.
	But I do react to everything that you tell me in your emails, and in fact, the show we're about to do has been suggested by a couple of emailers to the show, so thank you for that.
	I'll get into that in just a second.
	These are very, very turbulent times.
	A lot of high emotion seems to be running in the air at the moment, and we're only a couple of months into the year, aren't we?
	First of all, there is high tension in the UK because of the death of a woman who managed to polarise the nation.
	I don't think that's a political statement.
	That's just a fact.
	Margaret Hilda Thatcher, Baroness Thatcher.
	If you live in America, you will remember her many well-publicised meetings with President Ronald Reagan and the special rapport the pair of them had during times like the invasion of the Falkland Islands.
	There was a great air of cabaraderie and cooperation between the two of them.
	Well, Margaret Thatcher died a few days ago here in the UK, and there has been the biggest political debate about, one, her legacy and two, the arrangements for her funeral, because as I speak, next week, one week from now, she is having a pretty large funeral in the UK that will cost about £10 million.
	There will be additional costs on top of that.
	And a lot of people are saying at the moment that a woman who divided our country so greatly should not be accorded that honour.
	It is quite unprecedented, but she was the first female Prime Minister.
	And she did preside over a period of completely unprecedented change in the UK.
	A lot of industries went to the wall.
	Industries like finance went through a thing called the Big Bang and developed, became great export earners for this country, but also great earners of personal wealth for individuals who aggrandise themselves in that period.
	The mining industry decimated, some people will say.
	In fact, there have been some people in mining communities in the UK who've celebrated her death, and that's been reported in the news.
	So a lot of high tension and high emotion running around this thing, and the funeral has yet to happen.
	So I'll report back to you on that after it has happened.
	The other thing, of course, being the ongoing tension between North and South Korea, and North Korea, and its unusual regime, to put it mildly, and the rest of the world.
	North Korea pouring out bile and vitriol and saying that we might use nuclear weapons and advising foreigners to get out of the capitalist South Korea.
	Is this all posturing?
	I don't know.
	But what I do know is that Major Ed Dames, the remote viewer, who was a regular guest on Art Bell's Coast to Coast AM, also a regular guest on The Unexplained, always used to say that the first use of a tactical nuclear weapon would be on the Korean Peninsula.
	Now, I don't know if you'd forgotten that.
	I never did.
	I wonder if you'll turn out to be correct.
	I surely hope not.
	So a time of great tension, a time of great uncertainty, but maybe out of these odd melting pot times that we're in, maybe something good will come.
	Who knows?
	Now, to the show this time, and it is going to be about the subject of the Vatican.
	Many times on The Unexplained, both on the radio show and on the online show, I've made references to the fact that the Vatican holds certain secrets.
	I think there's probably no doubt about that.
	There are things the Vatican knows, whether they're the secrets of Fatima or alleged revelations about what might be going on in space.
	Why does the Vatican have an observatory is a very good question to ask.
	But there are things that is claimed the Vatican knows that you and I don't.
	And to get to the bottom, perhaps, of some of that, I'm going to talk to a man called Chris Putnam, who's the co-author of a couple of books about the Vatican and its various machinations.
	Petrus Romanus was the first, and Exo-Vaticana is the latest.
	And that, as the title suggests, is pointing to a connection between what goes on in space and what goes on down here.
	Fascinating book.
	Fascinating man.
	Chris Putnam coming soon from the United States here on The Unexplained.
	If you want to get in touch with me, go to the website, www.theunexplained.tv.
	And if you can, when you're there, please leave a donation to help the running of the show, to help it continue.
	Thank you to Adam Cornwell.
	The website that you will see has been designed and is maintained by him.
	He's the man who gets the show out to you, Adam Cornwell, a creative hotspot in Liverpool.
	Okay, let's not delay any longer.
	Let's get to Chris Putnam in the United States.
	And we're going to talk about his work and research about the Vatican.
	Chris, thank you for coming on.
	Well, it's my pleasure to be on with you, Howard.
	Now, you have been involved in some incredibly interesting work, along with your research partner, Tom Horne, researching the secrets of the Vatican.
	For years, we've been told that the Vatican is hiding a great deal.
	Apart from its enormous great wealth, there is much in the Vatican that the Vatican doesn't see, and various people propound various reasons for that.
	Is this the theme and form of the work that you've been doing to try and uncover some of those things?
	Well, that's certainly a part of it.
	I'll tell you, one of the things that's probably the most fascinating aspect about this present book, Exo-Vaticana, are the things that they are saying in the public.
	You know, I would qualify that with, you know, we are dealing with probably the largest, longest running bureaucracy in history.
	So the fact that they've been accumulating data for, you know, centuries is beyond dispute.
	And what we have to explain to people who perhaps are in further flung parts of the world, I've got listeners in the Far East and Malaysia, various other places, is that the Vatican is in fact a nation-state.
	It's a state within a state.
	So you go to Rome and there is this separate area.
	I was there a few years ago that is the Vatican.
	It's Vatican City, but it's a country and it is effectively self-governing.
	And you step across the little frontier, which is a road effectively, and you do feel like you're stepping into something completely different.
	These people control their own destiny.
	That's absolutely true.
	And I mean, they have their own delegate to the United Nations.
	So they literally are a small nation state.
	Now, this goes back to like 756 AD when they became the Papal States.
	And they were actually a much bigger country at that point.
	It was Napoleon who actually took that away from them.
	And they kind of ceased to exist for a short period of time.
	And then in the early 20th century, they made a deal with Mussolini.
	And he actually paid them millions of dollars in restitution and gave them the little bit of land that they have now, which is not anything like what they used to have, but they are a sovereign nation state.
	And that is part of what happened during World War II.
	I saw a fascinating documentary.
	I think it was on Discovery about a month or so ago.
	It's probably been around for about 10 years, but I saw this then.
	That was questioning why the Vatican didn't get more involved in the fight against Nazism.
	And the Vatican had to do its own log rolling and its own dealing to be able to survive.
	Yes, they did.
	And that's been very controversial.
	Pope Pius XII did sign Concordance, which is basically a treaty of sorts with the fascist dictator Mussolini in Italy.
	And then he signed one with Adolf Hitler as well.
	So in the eyes of many German Roman Catholics, that seemed to legitimize the Nazi regime.
	Now, of course, this was at the beginning of Hitler's reign.
	And, you know, they can probably make a good argument that he didn't know what was going on at that time when he signed it.
	But, you know, in effect, it really did legitimize the Nazi regime in the eyes of Roman Catholics.
	All right.
	So here we have this enormous bureaucracy, one of the oldest bureaucracies, if not the oldest.
	It is very much a law unto itself.
	It is well able to keep secrets, the truths, whatever they may be, of the death of the first John Paul.
	Did we ever find out the truth about that?
	A lot of people say no.
	So this is a closed organization that is very open to the public.
	It has a public face and a private face.
	What is, before we get into all of that, what is it about you that made you want to start to research this?
	Because from my research about you, you're not a Catholic, are you?
	No, I'm not.
	I'm a Christian, but I'm definitely a Protestant.
	And I stand on the theological distinctives of Protestantism, which is basically a protest against the Catholic Church that began with, you know, before Martin Luther, but it began in earnest with the 95 Theses with Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation.
	So I stand on the back of those reformers theologically.
	I do have a seminary degree.
	I have a master's degree in theological studies.
	And I defend the biblical worldview.
	I defend biblical Christianity in the public square.
	And, you know, I tend to think that Roman Catholicism is kind of a diversion from the faith that I see in the New Testament because, you know, mentioning that when they acquired the Papal States in 756, the sorts of things that Jesus taught, you know, he taught that his kingdom was not of this world.
	You know, and when the Vatican, when the Roman Catholic Church became a worldly entity, when they became a worldly power, we started to see things like the Inquisition, the Crusades, you know, where it wasn't evangelism by, you know, reasoned arguments and persuasion.
	It was literally coercion, you know, and things like that, which, you know, I don't think are consistent with the message of the New Testament.
	So that would be, you know, where I'm coming from.
	But that happens in any organization, whether it's religious or whatever it is, that with growing responsibility and with growing wealth and growing impact comes power.
	And power can, whatever the organization it is, can be used and abused, can't it?
	Well, yeah, there's that famous saying, you know, that absolute power corrupts absolutely.
	So that is the tendency of power structures to do that.
	There have always been claims, haven't there?
	And I wonder if this was your jumping on point for all of this, to start to research the Vatican and what it gets up to, that the Vatican hides things, that the Vatican knows truths about our future, whether they be the prophecies of Fatima or whatever they may be, that they are very keen not to reveal to us and take great steps to retain privacy about those things.
	Well, yeah, I mean, there is a pretty long and clear track record of kind of revisionist history and, you know, even forging of various documents to sort of paint the church in a favorable light.
	So, you know, there's a long track record of that sort of behavior.
	So what was the tipping point for you that told you, Chris Putnam and also Tom Horne, of course, who works with you on these things, but told you particularly, I want to start looking behind the veils.
	Well, you know, this current book, Exo Vaticana, you know, is dealing with the subject of extraterrestrials, of UFOs, and these sort of fringe ideas.
	But, you know, it really wasn't a stretch for us to look into the Vatican's interested in that because of the sorts of statements they've made in public.
	I mean, it's really interesting that we have this large, you know, ostensibly religious organization that maintains two observatories, one on Mount Graham in Arizona, which happens to be one of the better telescopes in existence.
	And it's right up there in a little conglomeration of three instruments, the Vatican Advanced Technology Telescope, the sub-millimeter radio telescope, and then the Large Binocular Telescope is only 100 yards from the Vatican Advanced Technology Telescope.
	And it is, without exception, the most powerful telescope in the world right now, whose primary mission is the search for exoplanets and astrobiology.
	So, and then you read the sorts of statements made by the Vatican Observatory Research Group.
	That's VORG, is their acronym.
	I just had a little bit of fun with that.
	But they've made a lot of statements in the media about extraterrestrials, about wanting to baptize extraterrestrials.
	You know, I just would, you know, challenge your listeners to just do a Google search.
	Type the word baptize at extraterrestrials into Google and hit search, and you'll get hundreds of articles.
	And they're all interviews with Jesuit astronomers making these sort of claims.
	Well, there have been certain amounts of controversy over the years about, I think there was a recent statement to that effect.
	But isn't that just the kind of line that you would expect an organization like the Catholic Church to take?
	In other words, if we do happen to be one of these days visited by something that may have formerly populated Mars or comes from somewhere very, very far out that we don't even know, then we have as Christians to welcome whatever that might be because then we suddenly discover it exists.
	Isn't that what you would expect them to say?
	Perhaps.
	I mean, I think that I guess that is what I would expect them to say.
	But when you say as Christians, I think that, you know, one of the main theses in our book is that we think they are not being quite skeptical enough about what they're dealing with.
	We kind of challenge the idea that the entities that people claim are aliens are truly extraterrestrials from other planets.
	We think it more likely that they are entities that have been around this planet through all time.
	And so that's kind of our working thesis.
	So does that bring us to the crux of your work?
	Are you trying to say that they know about this stuff?
	They have known about this stuff.
	They've had a certain amount of contact, but certainly a great amount of knowledge, but they ain't telling.
	Yeah, I think so.
	And I think that that's really self-evident from some of the facts that we discuss and some information that's really available to the public if you look into it.
	I mean, there's an attorney.
	This guy, his name is Daniel Sheehan, and he's a rather famous attorney.
	He's handled some pretty famous cases.
	And he was working for the Carter.
	He worked for the Jesuits, first of all.
	He was the Jesuits' attorney for quite a while.
	And then he was working for the Carter administration.
	And they had asked him to try to access the Vatican's files on UFOs.
	And so he submitted a request to Rome through his Jesuit contacts.
	He was, you know, like the American representative for the Jesuits.
	And he was rejected.
	And he thought, oh, there must be some mistake.
	They don't realize that this is the president of the United States, you know, asking just to get a briefing on what sort of records they had.
	And so he resubmitted it, you know, clarifying that this was for the Carter administration and was summarily rejected again.
	So the fact that they are hiding something is, you know, is pretty obvious from that situation.
	And did he ever get to the bottom of why they might have done this other than make the assumption that they have something to hide?
	I mean, when you just get a rejection letter, that's all you have.
	So you can infer from that what you want to know.
	But I mean, I suspect it doesn't seem to me to be much of a stretch when you have an organization that's been around ostensibly since the early Middle Ages until now with representatives in almost every country and every part of the world and who keeps records of supernatural events.
	That's one of the things they do.
	They investigate miracles and they have all these Marian apparitions and all these various things.
	So it's actually their specialty to look for anomalous activity.
	So the fact that they would have these kind of records is uncontroversial.
	But the fact that they don't want to talk about it is a little more controversial.
	So in Exo Vaticana, I have to say, I haven't been able to get a copy of the book here in the UK.
	So I haven't seen it, but I've read reviews and read details about it.
	So we're talking around it right now.
	Have you been able to get to places where this Jesuit person on behalf of the Carter administration couldn't get to?
	Have you been able to unearth things that he couldn't?
	Well, you know, as far as their private records in the Vatican archive, no.
	But, you know, we visited the Vatican Advanced Technology Telescope Facility on Mount Graham.
	That was really the beginning of our investigation.
	So the sort of things that we found out there are, you know, more along the lines of secular science, of astrobiology, which is kind of the marriage of astronomy and biology.
	Well, the interesting fact about this whole science, though, is that you can get a degree, you can get a PhD in astrobiology, but as far as I know, you don't really have anything specific to study as of yet.
	Why is that not a surprise?
	It seems a little inconsistent that you can get a PhD in a subject that has absolutely no subject matter, as far as we know, at this point anyway.
	Well, there will be people who say that applies to sociology, but I couldn't possibly comment.
	Well, so, you know, it is really intriguing.
	The Vatican itself had an astrobiology conference in Rome.
	The Pontifical Academy of Science sponsored an astrobiology conference in Rome in 2009 and invited the top secular scientists in the world in the field to come.
	I mean, we're talking, you know, atheists.
	But that's not a smoking gun, though, is it?
	There's nothing in that that is something that a nation state wouldn't do.
	The Vatican wants to be important.
	It wants to be out there in the world.
	It is represented globally.
	So, of course, it's going to take an interest in these things.
	I'm sure the UK government does too.
	And certainly we know the U.S. government does.
	Yeah, but I think that, I mean, how many other scientific conferences do they have?
	I mean, it seems to me that they do have a special interest in this topic, and especially in outer space.
	And some of the statements over the years by some of the whistleblowers have been pretty interesting as well.
	Father Malachi Martin, who was a Jesuit Who got a release from his vows to write books?
	One of the early books that he wrote was called The Jesuits, and it was about what he thought were a group of liberalized, you know, kind of secularized thinking Jesuits within the Vatican who were undermining the church.
	He saw that as a betrayal, and he wrote an expose about them.
	I heard him speak many times on American radio.
	Maybe I was just unlucky, but I heard him talk about the nature of evil a great deal.
	I heard him talk about exorcisms a lot.
	He was always compelling about these things.
	I didn't really hear him talking about ETs.
	Well, what I was going to get to is one time he had an interview with Art Bell in like the late 90s, and Art Bell was asking him, why did the Vatican build this observatory on Mount Graham in Arizona?
	And Malachi Martin said, because they have knowledge of something that's approaching the earth, you know, in the next 10 years or so.
	And, you know, and they're really watching it.
	And I'm just kind of paraphrasing what he said there, but he really implied that they had something specific that they were watching for.
	Now, what that was, he didn't say.
	And I still, sadly, Malachi Martin, who was based in New York, wasn't he, an Irish Catholic priest who gave up his priestly work to research and blow the whistle effectively.
	A lot of those questions were left hanging in the air.
	I heard those programs 1997, 1998.
	He was particularly active with Art Bell, and Art was a fabulous interviewer with him, was able to get out all sorts of information.
	But there were so many questions that we were left unanswered and will now continue to be unanswered because the guy's not with us anymore.
	That's true.
	That's true.
	So, yeah, here's the quote.
	I have it right in front of me now.
	He said, because the, so Art Bell asked him, you know, what they're doing up there.
	And he said, because the mentality amongst those who are at the highest level of the Vatican administration and geopolitics know what's going on in space and what's approaching us could be of great import in the next five to 10 years.
	So that was his exact quote.
	So that seems to imply that he knew something and he was definitely an insider.
	He was an advisor to three popes.
	I mean, the man had three PhDs and, you know, he was definitely at the top echelons at the Vatican.
	Well, there's no doubt about it.
	The guy was still connected.
	He had people who would tell him information that you and I couldn't get hold of.
	He used to reveal things on that show.
	I remember that well.
	It's very sad that we don't have him now.
	But nevertheless, despite his intensive research, he didn't have a smoking gun, did he?
	He didn't have evidence of what lies in those vaults.
	Well, you know, I don't know what he knew.
	He died kind of mysteriously.
	And some people think that maybe he was pushed.
	He took a fall down some stairs in 1999.
	And, you know, some people think that.
	Really?
	I didn't know how he died.
	That's fascinating.
	I always felt that he would die in questionable, let's not say suspicious circumstances.
	It's just interesting to hear that.
	He was working on a book about how the Vatican was actually taking part in leading to a new world order.
	So a lot of people think that, yeah, he was silenced.
	And what have you been able to directly deduce?
	Have you been able to talk to any Vatican whistleblowers, people who would have talked to you off the record?
	Well, we actually talked to some of these Jesuits.
	One of the primary astronomers, Guy Cosmonalgo, who is one of the ones that speaks quite a bit in public.
	And, you know, some of the sorts of things that he said and believed, I mean, from a Christian theology perspective, are rather astounding.
	And, you know, we were shocked, to be honest with you, with some of the things that he would allow for and that he would tell us.
	They really do seem to believe that extraterrestrials are real.
	I mean, they seem to think that it's just kind of a logical extension from God's omniscience and omnipotence.
	But again, we have something that you don't have to be a Philadelphia lawyer to come to that conclusion.
	Well, right.
	But some of the things that the sort of things that like, are you familiar with the Nephilim in the Bible, in Genesis chapter 6?
	So this is the idea that these fallen angels, right, would procreate with human women and had these giants.
	And this is in the Old Testament.
	And of course, you know, we don't look at those as good guys from a theology perspective.
	Now, when we asked Guy Cosmonalgo, you know, what evidence that he might have from the Bible that God created extraterrestrials, well, he pointed to angels and then he actually referenced the Nephilim, which is rather bizarre.
	I mean, here's a quote directly from the horse's mouth.
	And these are not the only non-human intelligent creatures mentioned in the Bible.
	There's that odd and mysterious passage at the beginning of Genesis chapter 6 that describes the sons of God taking human wives.
	With it is a frustratingly oblique reference to the Nephilim.
	Now, he actually offers that these could be the extraterrestrials that we are in communication with or that they are expecting to show up.
	He made some rather astounding statements about the world looking to extraterrestrials as their saviors.
	He actually said that there would be space saviors that they were expecting.
	He quoted John chapter 10, where he said, when Jesus said, I have other sheep of this fold.
	He sort of justifies this from the Bible.
	And then this is the statement that I found the most shocking.
	Now, this quote, perhaps it's not so far-fetched to see the second person of the Trinity, the Word, who was present in the beginning, John 1.1, coming down to lay his life and take it up again, John 10, 18, not only as the Son of Man, but also as a child of other races.
	This is either somebody's individual conviction, Or it sounds to me like this guy was speaking to you advisedly.
	In other words, perhaps he knew more than he was saying to you.
	Is that the feeling that you got?
	You know, it begs the question: do Vatican scholars actually believe that Jesus could have been the star child of an alien race?
	I mean, does Cosmonago and the other Jesuits kind of hold some kind of, you know, virgin birth was some sort of alien abduction scenario in which Mary was impregnated by ATs?
	I don't know.
	But when he says that, you know, he could be the child of other races, you know, what he's kind of hinting at as well is this idea of the incarnation.
	You know, Jesus incarnated as a man to die for the sins of humanity.
	And this is, you know, Christian theology.
	So it always begs the question when people bring up aliens, well, what if the aliens fell?
	Would he have to incarnate on their planet?
	So I think he was kind of hinting at that idea.
	But I mean, the fact that he is able to just say these things like that, it really does.
	It's very suggestive that they think something's going on.
	Recent popes are claimed to have known more than they were telling.
	What do we know about John Paul II?
	He was there for a very long time.
	He took over very rapidly from John Paul I. And there is a conspiracy theory, isn't there, that says that John Paul I was about to reveal some of this stuff and couldn't have been allowed to do that.
	But John Paul II knew all about it.
	What do you think to that kind of thing?
	Well, you know, from what I've ascertained that John Paul I, now, here's something, and I'm going to tie this into something that you'll find fascinating.
	That was the year when John Paul I, he's the pope that was only pope for 33 days, okay?
	And he died very mysteriously.
	And a lot of people speculate that he was poisoned for bed with his Vatican papers around him.
	I don't think they had a full autopsy.
	If they did, I don't think we got to read about it, but he was cremated, I think, extremely quickly.
	There wasn't a body to be able to go back to and reference.
	Yeah, they actually, yeah, I think they actually just embalmed him.
	But I tried to, I heard that cremation story, and I've never been able to verify that.
	They do have a tomb for him, but I haven't seen his body, but I could never verify that he was cremated.
	But what I read is they embalmed him the next day, which is very suspicious, you know, because a lot of people think that he was poisoned.
	Now, from what I've read, he was about to expose a whole bunch of Freemasons who had infiltrated the church is what I've heard.
	Now, he had a shortlist and he was about to clean house.
	So that's one of the theories.
	You know, could it have been involved in these other issues?
	It certainly could have.
	Now, this is something you might not be aware of, but I think that this is terribly interesting.
	And I don't really have a real easy answer for you to what's going on, but there does seem to be some connection.
	So this year, 1978 for Roman Catholics is a famous year of three popes, being that we had Paul VI died.
	They elected John Paul I. He was pope for 33 days.
	Then he died mysteriously.
	Then they elected John Paul II.
	So this is kind of an unprecedented really year that you have actually three standing popes in the same calendar year.
	Well, what is really, really weird is this was the time there was a massive UFO flap over the city of Rome right in the middle of the doomed John Paul I brief pontificate.
	I'm talking about there were numerous cigar disc and triangular shaped craft that were seen haunting the skies over Italy by people from all walks of life, including Vatican officials, you know, guards, police officers.
	I've, you know, I found New York Times articles that covered this story.
	It made national world news.
	There were triangular-shaped crafts flying over the city of Rome, shooting green beam of light down.
	And like I have, I have, you know, these reports from the New York Times.
	I can read you some little snippets of it if you like.
	But it's just really bizarre.
	And it all happened right in the middle of his little brief pontificate.
	In fact, within two weeks of this massive UFO flap on September 14th in Rome, he died on September 28th.
	And then the thing that's even stranger is that right as John Paul II became Pope, it even increased.
	In December of 1978, according to Rome's police department, two fishermen went missing during this UFO flap, and their fate is unknown as far as I'm concerned.
	I could never verify that they were found.
	And then when John Paul II died in April 2nd of 2005, we have another UFO sighting over the Vatican, and this time it's in photographs.
	And we actually reproduced that photograph in our book.
	You know, an Indianapolis news channel in the United States actually ran the video footage.
	I tried to get the copy of that footage from them, but they don't keep records that far back.
	But we do have a snapshot of it.
	So, you know, really strange that you have this kind of unprecedented, probably spiritual warfare going on in the Vatican with, you know, three popes changing hands.
	And then right in the middle of that, there's just a huge UFO flap where hundreds of people, you know, eyewitnesses, you know, government officials, police officers, mixed the New York Times.
	You just can't make this stuff up.
	You can't.
	Have you been able to talk to anybody within the Vatican off the record about any of that?
	Has anybody volunteered a view?
	No, I haven't been able to talk to anyone that saw any of that.
	No, no.
	But I do have the, you know, just have the newspaper reports and reports from the Mutual UFO Network, MUFON.
	They have records of this going all the way back.
	And also NICAP, they have records of it.
	And we cited those and footnoted it all in the book.
	So we got documentation from witnesses that were there at the time as best we could.
	Very, very unusual events.
	What about evidence that lifts the lid on the secrets that the Vatican holds, though?
	How much evidence of that have you got in this book?
	Have you been able to find?
	Well, I'll tell you, I found some things that you might find shocking as well.
	So, you know, you mentioned the secrets of Fatima at the onset of the show.
	Now, you know, a lot of people don't really understand what happened at Fatima.
	And it's all a little confusing because it's associated with the Virgin Mary.
	Now, I dispute that the mother of Jesus is appearing as a ghost and delivering prophecies.
	Theologically, I don't accept that.
	And, you know, we kind of parse it as the harbinger of the great deception.
	We think that this entity is actually delivering deceiving messages.
	So, you know, no matter what the third secret is, I don't know that I would trust it.
	But what is really interesting in 1917, you know, in October 13th, 1917, they had this thing called the Miracle of the Sun, right?
	And this is what is so famous because up to 70,000 people stood out in a field and, you know, declared that they saw the sun dancing in the sky and, you know, shooting out a cascade of rainbow colors.
	You know, but that's not Mary.
	You know, they're talking about they see a sphere dancing in the sky, you know, shooting out a rainbow of colors.
	Now, you know, the actual content of the message comes from three children between the ages of seven and 10.
	You know, so, and they kind of channel this message, you know, from Mary.
	And so it's kind of the same sort of thing that new age channelers do, where, you know, they kind of go into a trance and they get this vision or this message and then they write it down or whatever.
	Now, with the Fatima secrets, it really didn't get written down until 1943.
	So long after, you know, the events.
	Can you imagine trying to remember something 20 years later that happened to you when you were 10 and write it down with accuracy?
	So the whole thing is really dubious.
	But really, you know, people that study UFOs and look into that phenomenon really view this as a mass UFO sighting.
	One of the UFologists that I study, because I think he's probably one of the most qualified in the field, is Jacques Vollet.
	Now, Jacques Vollet has a master's degree in astrophysics and a PhD in computer science.
	And he's been tracking the UFO phenomenon since Project Blue Book, where he worked with J. Allen Hynek in the 1960s.
	So he's been at it as long as anyone and probably has the best qualifications.
	Now, he sees the FATIMA sighting as a mass UFO sighting, really something that's meant to manipulate the world and steer it.
	He sees the UFO phenomenon really.
	He doesn't parse it as aliens.
	He sees it as some sort of control grid.
	And this is his hypothesis, is that this phenomenon kind of works underneath the level of critique.
	Now, what I mean by that is it intentionally perpetrates absurdities.
	It presents itself in a way that is the sort of thing that a skeptic would never accept.
	So that way it sort of flies under the radar of the intelligentsia.
	You're not going to see people in the academy studying this phenomenon because they just dismiss it as absurd and hallucinations and swamp gas and all these sorts of things.
	He says that's intentional because what it's trying to do is influence worldviews.
	And if you look at the way he parses this, it makes a lot of sense because it's actually, it really is true.
	Now, in the Huffington Post, I read an article about a survey in the UK that said that more people believe in ET than believe in God.
	I would say that's knowing this country these days.
	I think that's probably true.
	So I would say that this phenomenon is succeeding its goal of bending people's worldviews.
	And I think that that's the sort of thing that Jacques talking about.
	Now, let me get back to what I was getting to with the Fatima thing.
	Well, one thing that I uncovered that you probably had never heard before.
	So there is a private note.
	It's not so private anymore.
	It's been made public, but it's a little known note that Pope Pius XII, the same Pope we were talking about during World War II before, he's the one that made the Fatima thing an official miracle that sort of signed on and gave it an official status and the whole Fatima thing.
	Now.
	Can I just interrupt for half a second?
	How did the Catholic Church come to take ownership of this?
	Because they did.
	Yeah, they investigate.
	I mean, so they send out, they have priests, you know, that were there.
	And then they, you know, they have people that that's their job.
	You know, that's, that's kind of what I was getting at earlier on.
	The fact that they would have records about supernatural phenomenon and UFOs would be uncontroversial because this is, you know, one of their charges.
	It's one of the main things that they do.
	So yeah, there was a priest that was there.
	I mean, there was 70,000 people according to some of the records that saw the miracle of the sun.
	So they were quick to sign on to that one.
	And Pope Pius XII is really the one that made that official.
	Now, he was also the pope responsible for this doctrine called the Assumption of Mary.
	Now, this is one of the critiques that Protestants level at Catholics.
	I mean, they're still promulgating, you know, new doctrines that really aren't in the Bible.
	This is the idea that Mary ascended into heaven when she, you know, that she didn't die on the earth, that she actually, her body was taken up, you know, just like Jesus was in the book of Acts, which we don't see in the Bible at all.
	You know, this is kind of a legend that we can only trace back to maybe the third century AD.
	But it's something that a lot of people had held over time.
	But this Pope was thinking about promulgating that as official dogma that all Catholics are bound to believe in 1950.
	Now, what inspired him to actually go through with that?
	Well, in 1950, over the Vatican Gardens in Rome, he saw a sphere dancing in the sky, just like the Fatima thing.
	And he describes this in a note that's in his personal effects.
	And so quite literally, this is what inspired him to promulgate this doctrine.
	So, I mean, and just a logical deduction would say that we have a UFO that is dictating official Catholic theology to the Pope.
	Well, it may have been a catalyst.
	We can't say it was dictating, can we?
	Well, I mean, it inspired him to go through with it.
	I mean, he said that, you know, he was considering it, whether he should do it or not.
	And when this event happened, that's what really made him decide to do it.
	And that's in his own handwriting.
	Malachi Martin, who we've referred to and who I was an enormous fan of, he was a marvelous raconteur, marvelous speaker.
	Malachi Martin used to talk about how this final secret of Fatima, of course, has never been revealed by the Vatican.
	What do we think is in that final secret?
	What don't they want us to know yet?
	You know, that's a really good question.
	The fact that so many people think that it's been intentionally hidden does seem to imply that it's something not particularly flattering to the church.
	You know, our first book that I co-wrote with Tom Horne, Petrus Romanus, deals with the Malachi prophecy.
	And that prophecy seems to predict the destruction and judgment of Rome.
	Now, there have been quite a few other Catholic sources that have pointed to seeing Rome as being judged in the end times.
	Wasn't part of that in your previous book and in this Malachi, this is not Malachi Martin, this is a long time before this is Saint Malachi.
	The prediction was that the pope that we have now, Francis, who's only been in office for a period of, what, weeks, that Francis is going to be the last pope.
	That's right.
	Yeah, the final prop, this is a 900-year-old prophecy delivered by, you know, allegedly by this Catholic saint, Saint Malachi.
	It was printed in 1595, so no one disputes that it's at least that old.
	And, you know, it does predict, you know, it was a list of 112 popes, and we're at the last one on the list now.
	And the prediction for this final pope is in the extreme persecution of the Holy Roman Church, there will sit Peter the Roman, who will nourish the sheep in many tribulations.
	When they are finished, the city of seven hills will be destroyed, and the dreadful judge will judge his people.
	So this is the guy who is there making preparations right now, if we're to believe all of this, to wind it all up.
	This is the closing down sale, isn't it?
	This is the end of times or the beginning of something else.
	It would be during his pontificate.
	And one of the things that I saw you in another interview describe that might add a little bit of credibility to this is the fact that the Malachi prophecy predicted exactly when the Pope that we've just lost, Benedict, would actually step down in office.
	And you said that you were aware of when that would be, and it would be March 2012, which of course it wasn't.
	It was a year later.
	But if what I deduced from that interview was right, he actually did step down, but he did it in private.
	He gave a year's notice.
	It's a little more nuanced than that.
	The Malachi prophecy didn't say that he would step down.
	That was an inference that we drew from some research.
	I'll explain briefly.
	So the Malachi prophecy is just a list of these Latin phrases for these popes.
	Now, in investigating that prophecy, I tried to debunk it and I really couldn't.
	I mean, I think there's some valid criticisms and a lot of them seem kind of vague and things like that, but there's really a lot of fulfillments of those predictions that are very compelling.
	For instance, there was the Latin phrase that fell during the pontificate of Benedict XV was religio depopulata.
	Now, he was Pope from 1914 to 1922, and that phrase would mean religion depopulated.
	So between 1914 and 1922 was when World War I broke out in Europe, which is...
	Absolutely.
	But I mean, that was also the time the Bolshevik Revolution started in Russia, which is the beginning of militant atheism.
	And they say up to 200 million people left the church to join the Communist Party.
	And the ones that didn't, you know, Stalin and Lenin, you know, wrote specifically about targeting religious leaders because they saw them as the sorts of people that would stand up against the communist state.
	So more than any other time in history, we have the beginning of the depopulation of religion.
	And it was exactly when this prophecy said that it would happen.
	So that is the sort of thing that, you know, it's a falsifiable claim that really you wouldn't expect to happen.
	It seems to betray coincidence.
	I just don't, you know, it seems to be a supernatural prophecy.
	So, you know, with that sort of precedent behind it, it does suggest that we really could be in the reign of the very last pope.
	And what is it that suggests to you, and I presume it's one of the, it must be one of the premises of this book and your research.
	What is it that suggests to you that this man, Francis, who is a very humble man, he's renounced a lot of the trappings, a lot of the pomp and glory of the papacy, he does seem to be a very down-to-earth character.
	What is it that makes you think that this man is going to steer us towards extraterrestrials?
	Well, there's several things that are very interesting.
	You know, I don't have anything specific about him doing that as of yet, but I see the world heading in a certain direction.
	Now, what makes Pope Francis particularly interesting is some facts that I discovered shortly after he became pope.
	He's the first Jesuit pope ever.
	Now, all these astronomers that we're talking about, the Vatican Observatory Research Group.
	They're all Jesuits.
	They're all Jesuits.
	Now, the leader of the Vatican Observatory Research Group, the head guy in charge, his name is Jose Funes.
	And guess where Jose Funes is from?
	Argentina.
	Guess who brought Jose Funes into the Jesuit order?
	Really?
	Cardinal Bergoglio.
	Yeah, he's the one that actually sponsored him into the Jesuits.
	And Bergoglio also has a master's degree in chemistry.
	So he was a scientist before he became a theologian.
	And yeah, and he's got a very intimate connection to the leader of the Vatican Observatory Research Group.
	In fact, he's the one that brought him into the order.
	So there's a very interesting backstory developing here.
	Yeah, he really is poised to be an insider in the whole observatory and Vatican astrobiology project there.
	But still, you don't appear through your researches to have been able to get through that wall of secrecy to people who've been able to reveal things to you.
	In other words, you haven't been able to have, by the sounds of it, and that's not a criticism of you because nobody else has, meetings with priests or people connected with the Vatican who've told you in the dead of night, there is more to this than meets the eye, and they know a great deal more, but I'm in fear of my life.
	I dare not tell you more.
	That's something that you don't have, isn't it?
	Yeah, nothing quite that sensational.
	But I mean, when you start to look at all the pieces that we gathered, you know, it really is suggestive and it points pretty strongly in one direction.
	Now, you know, like I said at the beginning, I don't think that you really need anything, that smoking gun, because I think they've said enough things in public that are revealing to point to the fact that something's up.
	And let's face it, Chris, an organization that has dealt for centuries in signs and symbols is not going to issue a press release.
	Well, the thing that's crazy is that one of them sort of did.
	Now, this was Corrado Baldi, Monsignor Corrado Balducci.
	Now, he was an exorcist, a theologian, member of the Vatican Curia.
	He was the demonologist in charge of the Diocese of Rome.
	He was really good friends with John Paul II.
	The title Monsignor is an honor that is bestowed on you by the Pope.
	So to say that he's a high-level official would be an understatement.
	Now, what's really interesting is that he really believed that UFOs were extraterrestrial beings visiting the earth.
	Now, I don't mean that in a, you know, just in a trivial kind of way.
	He said that it was beyond dispute that they were here.
	They had already been visiting here.
	He went on Italian television and actually made some statements that were never corrected by the Vatican.
	He said that it was a certainty that these were actual extraterrestrials.
	You can go on YouTube, I believe, and find the video with the translation printed on the bottom as he's talking with him on Italian television.
	His name is Corrado Balducci, B-A-L-D-U-C-C-I.
	Is he still with us?
	Is he still around?
	I think he died around 2005.
	Okay.
	So here is somebody with the official stamp, somebody connected right to the very top, being allowed to get away with saying things like that.
	I mean, he said, here's, I got the transcript in front of me right now, just pulled it up.
	He said that there are, that this makes the existence of these beings into a certainty that we cannot doubt.
	Okay.
	That's what he said on Italian television.
	Now, of course, this created a lot of a stir around the year 2000 or so is when he did it.
	You know, what are we to make when such a highly placed, influential insider announcing on television that, you know, that he's aware of the evidence that makes the existence of these beings a certainty?
	You know, he's a Monsignor, so he's an insider with the Pope.
	And then, you know, he went to a UFO conference in Mexico.
	Now, when I say a UFO conference, I'm talking about a full-blown flying saucer UFO, you know, the sort of thing that you typically see on TV.
	So, you know, we're not talking about a group of scientists.
	We're talking about UFO fans.
	So you would expect them to take an interest, and we said this right at the top of this interview, but this is more of an interest than just a casual interest by the looks of it.
	He was a believer.
	And when he spoke at this conference in Mexico, here's a quote, quote, I wish always to be the spokesman for these star peoples who are also part of God's glory, and I will continue to bring it to the attention of the Holy Mother Church, end quote.
	So that's a high-ranking official saying that at a UFO convention.
	Now, the thing that we go at in our book, and it's probably time to get down to the crux of this, is that we don't believe that these are extraterrestrials.
	We do think that there's something going on.
	We think the contactee and the abduction phenomenon is real.
	Now, but when I see the sorts of things that witnesses testify to, especially in the abduction phenomenon, it really speaks more of what we would call demonic entities.
	And, you know, most evangelical Christian scholars who study this idea, study this phenomenon, come to the same conclusion.
	Now, the thing that is really inconsistent to me is that Balducci, this Catholic demonologist, he said things like that they're not demons.
	There's no way they're demons.
	He said, quote, we don't even have to waste a thought on the devil and his demons who still kept their angelic nature being fallen angels and therefore purely spiritual beings.
	And since they are limited.
	So he actually argues that, you know, that these fallen angels couldn't be the ones doing this because they're purely spiritual.
	Yet, you know, we see even Guy Cosmonalgo mentioning the Nephilim and the sons of God, you know, coming down to women in Genesis 6, where it's pretty apparent in scripture that angels can manifest bodies and interact with people in a physical way.
	You know, Catholic theology even supports this notion of incubus and succubus demons who have sexually interacted with human beings over time.
	In fact, we quote some older books by Catholic theologians who talk of phenomenon that sounds nearly identical to the sorts of testimonies that you hear from alien abductees.
	But when you read it in the Middle Ages, it's all parsed in the language of incubus and succubus demons.
	But it's nearly the exact same Sort of thing.
	So, what we're saying here is that rather than being in contact with extraterrestrials, in fact, the Vatican knows about and is engaged in a struggle with evil, which is what you would expect, but to this degree is going to be a big surprise to people.
	Well, you know, in biblical prophecy, the Apostle Paul wrote in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 that there was going to be a strong delusion that leads the world to believe a lie.
	And Jesus in his Olivet discourse in Matthew 24, he said that the level of deception on earth would be so great that if it were possible, it would deceive even the elect.
	So he's saying that even Christians, even people that believe in him, if they're not careful, that they would be deceived by the lying signs and wonders and the false prophets that were going to come on the earth before the end of days.
	Now, when I look around at our culture and I look around at the sorts of worldviews that most people have, most people are not so prone to believe in supernatural things, but they're really, really, you know, they're taken in by science and this idea that science has really become the arbiter of truth, you know, for most of Western culture.
	So when I think of something that's going to be a strong delusion or some sort of deception, if evil supernatural forces were going to perpetrate on the earth, I would expect it to be clothed in the credibility of science.
	So our working hypothesis in exo-vaticana is that these fallen angels are really going to try to deceive the world by posing as extraterrestrials.
	And that is why the Vatican is interested in all of this, because this is a classic good vil struggle.
	And if the Malachi prophecies are correct, it's a struggle we might be about to lose here.
	And the big deception, the big lie, is the whole story of E.T. That's our hypothesis.
	And that's really where I'm coming from.
	And, you know, I wrote a whole chapter on the science of astrobiology.
	It's really founded on a lot of presuppositions that are really just kind of hanging in thin air.
	And the existence of AT to me is almost a separate matter because when I look at the sorts of things that are associated with UFOs and abductions and contact D literature, it's all very much connected to the occult.
	It's all very deceptive.
	It has a pattern of deception.
	UFologists that study it, like Jacques Vallée, you know, he's a secular guy.
	He's not a Christian, but he's written books called Messengers of Deception.
	You know, this is how he parses this phenomenon.
	So, you know, I don't think it's much of a stretch to connect this sort of thing to the entities that the Bible talks about, you know, as fallen angels and demons.
	So I think that they really are going to try to fool the world.
	You know, the world is really looking for some sort of external savior from the sky.
	There's been a mythos associated with the UFO phenomenon since the late 1940s.
	And, you know, the idea was that we, you know, had just used nuclear weapons and that these advanced extraterrestrials were actually going to save us from ourselves, to keep us from nuking ourselves.
	And then, you know, since then, it's also been the environment, you know, that global warming or pollution or, you know, any of these events that the extraterrestrials are going to come down and give us free energy and get us off of oil and, you know, and save us from ourselves.
	There is an embedded idea in a mythology of extraterrestrial saviors that's deeply embedded into our consciousness.
	And it's been promoted through movies and books and TV shows.
	And when you look at the statistics, like in the UK, more people now believe in E.T. than God.
	So that tells me that their campaign has been successful and the world is really poised to believe this.
	If it's true, what have we got to do then?
	Because from what you're saying, the Catholic Church seem to be the only people who really know about this on some level.
	And you're beginning to discover it.
	What can we do to save ourselves?
	Well, you know, I think that we should be very skeptical about any claims to extraterrestrial discoveries.
	Now, you know, I'm not sure how aware the Vatican is.
	I mean, when I see the sorts of statements about Babel Balducci, it seems to me that he was buying into the lie.
	So, you know, I'm sure that some Catholics are aware of the deceptive nature of it, but others don't seem to be.
	Now, some of these Jesuit scientists that are working at the observatory, they really have a naturalistic sort of worldview.
	They sort of, you know, they believe in Darwinism and the whole scientific paradigm.
	I mean, I really can't find a lot of distinction between the sorts of statements they make about science and religion and someone like Richard Dawkins, you know, and I kind of take them to task on that because there seems to be a sort of inconsistency where they take their faith and they kind of put up into this kind of transcendent realm where it doesn't really affect their reason.
	They're kind of like, you know, two separate paradigms.
	And, you know, I don't really understand that because for me, you know, the truth should be sort of integral and work together.
	Now, so I challenge some of their statements because to me, some of the things that they believe are inconsistent with biblical theology.
	Now, that's not a statement about all Catholics.
	It's just some of these Jesuit scientists that I took to task.
	Now, so, you know, what can we do about it?
	I think that, you know, we need to watch and be careful about what we believe because biblical prophecy does predict that there's going to be this great deception and, you know, that it would be worldwide and that, you know, it would be so convincing that most people will believe it.
	And, you know, when I look at what the culture is poised to believe, you know, it seems to me that it's already here, according to the stats in the UK.
	So from what you're saying, and you are a theologian, you've studied theology, the world needs to turn to religion, which is the complete reverse of what so many sources are telling us these days.
	You're saying, actually, here's a very good reason to fight the good fight, because otherwise the forces of evil, which are being passed off to us as ETs, we're being told this big lie, they're going to take over unless we get good.
	Well, you know, I'd be Careful about saying turn to religion in very general terms.
	Yeah, but you know, religion kind of has a lot of bad connotations.
	It's usually man's attempt to get to God.
	Where, you know, the way I see the faith of the New Testament that Jesus was talking about, really, God comes to man.
	There's really nothing that we can do to earn his favor.
	That we really, you know, the gospel is that Jesus died for our sins because we're unworthy.
	And there's nothing that we can do to deserve it.
	So, I mean, I would say turn to Jesus Christ.
	You know, read the Gospel of John and understand what he was talking about, about being born again.
	That's my paradigm.
	You know, religion is often a man-made construct of rituals and, you know, and works-oriented righteousness.
	And I would be careful about that word.
	But, you know, I think that those that are in Jesus Christ will not be deceived.
	I really think that he will protect his own from that.
	Okay.
	So you're coming at this from a very Christian perspective, aren't you?
	Absolutely.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	And you're saying that there is a Jesus Christ, there is a God.
	And if we turn to this, then we're going to be saved from this thing that the Vatican knows about.
	Is that a fair summation of where you're at?
	Pretty close to it, yeah.
	You know, I do, I believe the biblical prophecies.
	I tend to think that we're on the short end of that scale.
	I don't claim any absolute knowledge about that.
	I'm not a date setter by any means, but I see a high level of spiritual deception in the world these days.
	I have a somewhat of a science background myself.
	I studied, I have a bachelor of science degree in mathematics as my undergrad degree.
	And I actually wrote a chapter on the science of astrobiology.
	And, you know, the scientific evidence for the fact that the Earth is a very special place for hosting intelligent life is really overwhelming.
	And, you know, I would say, you know, if you wanted to address this from a scientific point of view, then, you know, I addressed it from that point of view.
	And, you know, I had a friend of mine who has a PhD in physics read that chapter and proofread it for me.
	And I'm very confident that the science presented in that chapter is very accurate.
	And I think I make a very coherent and convincing scientific argument that the sorts of assumptions behind astrobiology are really just floating on thin air.
	I mean, they assume that any planet that is within a certain distance from its star would have liquid water, that life would just kind of poof into existence.
	Well, the naturalistic origin of life is very dubious.
	I mean, there's this whole idea that they call it abiogenesis.
	They really don't have any evidence that's ever happened.
	And I really believe that life is a miracle and that God created life.
	And the fact that they just assume it happens by accident on other planets is very easily challenged.
	And I think that the science absolutely stands against it.
	All right.
	So referencing all of this back to, and we're coming to the end of this now because of time constraints, but referencing it all back to the Malachi prophecy and the fact that Pope Francis in this may be the last pope.
	What drama do you think is going to play out?
	Well, you know, the reason that I got interested in the Malachi prophecy was the way that ending is apocalyptic.
	It says the city of seven hills will be destroyed and the dreadful judge will judge his people at the end.
	You know, that's the way the Malachi prophecy ends.
	And like I said, there's been some fulfillments of that prophecy in the past that do, you know, establish that there seems to be something supernatural about it.
	It has accurately predicted the future.
	So it coincides with the book of Revelation in very interesting ways.
	The book of Revelation speaks of a city of seven hills.
	Now, obviously, that's Rome.
	And Revelation 17 and 18, it speaks of the judgment of Rome again, which coincides to the Malachi prophecy.
	So we're in the end times and there's nothing we can do about it.
	It would suggest that.
	Yeah, it would.
	But we don't.
	Pope Francis might be Pope for 10 years.
	He might be Pope for 20 years.
	I don't know.
	I'm not putting any date on it.
	But if this prophecy is a true prophecy and it holds true, then we would expect to see the events in the book of Revelation happen within our lifetime.
	And what preparations, Chris Putnam, are you making for that?
	Well, you know, my preparations are really just to keep short tabs with God because, you know, one thing that a lot of people see that as the end of the world and whatnot.
	But really, if you read the book of Revelation, you know, a lot of skeptics are quick to point out the problem of evil.
	Well, the answer to the problem of evil in the Bible is the book of Revelation.
	This is where God judges evil in mankind and in supernatural entities.
	There's angelic warfare that's part of this.
	So this is probably where this extraterrestrial element really does come into play.
	Now, the end of the book of Revelation is where God restores the world to Edenic conditions, like the Garden of Eden, where it says he will wipe away every tear and dry every eye, and evil is vanquished.
	So if you're in Christ, if you're in a good position with God, then the end times are actually a victory that you're looking forward to, the return of Christ and the setup of his kingdom and peace on earth and the vanquishing of evil.
	So it's really not anything to be afraid of if you're on the right side.
	And that's what your premise is all about, that you think that you're on the right side because you're aligned with God as far as you can be.
	Yeah.
	And I don't, that's not anything saying that I think that I'm such a good person that I deserve it.
	No, it's really just his grace.
	And what about the people who, again, will email me and say, you know, this guy sounds a bit like a fundamentalist and it's the kind of thing we get out of America all the time.
	And actually, God, God doesn't exist.
	What would be your one-line answer to somebody like that?
	I would say you really have to say, why is there something rather than nothing?
	You know, the fact that the idea that God doesn't exist to me is incoherent because, you know, really our best science tells us that the universe came into being from nothing, what they call the Big Bang.
	In other words, just take a look around you.
	Yeah.
	I mean, everything that begins to exist has a cause.
	And, you know, science tells us that the universe began to exist, therefore, you know, it has a cause.
	And that cause created nature by definition.
	All of this is controversial, Chris.
	What sorts of email traffic do you get?
	Are people nice to you?
	I get some of both, but in general, most people are.
	I have my critics as well.
	All right, Chris, if people want to know more about you and your work and the work you've done with Tom Horne, where do they go?
	Where's a good starting point online?
	Well, my personal website, and it deals with Christian apologetics, theology.
	I am working on a book that's going to handle paranormal phenomenon.
	Now, I'm not a disbeliever in paranormal phenomenon and psy and those sort of issues.
	I think they're real.
	You know, I do come at it from a Christian perspective, but I think the supernatural is real, and I don't try to pin everything on demons.
	Do you believe that Jesus Christ was a psychic medium?
	I've heard that.
	I wouldn't say that.
	No, I think he was God incarnate.
	But I do believe that there are more, there's more forces going on in the world than you typically hear coming from a Christian.
	So I'm going to handle that in a book coming out next fall, I hope.
	But my website is logosapologia.org.
	So that's L-O-G-O-S-A-P-O-L-O-G-I-A.org.
	Now, the website for our latest book, Exo Vaticana, is exovaticana.com.
	So that's E-X-O-V-A-T-I-C-A-N-A, Exo Vaticana.
	And also Tom Horn, a publisher's website is raidersnewsupdate.org.
	Now, as far as the UK, I hope that you can get that book on Amazon.com.
	Well, I have a feeling if they're not marketing it already, they will be.
	Okay.
	Thank you very much indeed, Chris Putnam.
	And keep me informed about your work, will you?
	Absolutely.
	I hope that maybe we'll come back and talk about my supernatural book coming out in the fall.
	I'd like to.
	Thank you very much.
	Okay.
	Thank you very much.
	Well, I always said that we're not going to shy away from controversy on the unexplained.
	And if it presents itself, we'll reflect it.
	And I think we've just done that.
	Let me know your thoughts about Chris Putnam and what he's had to say or any of our guests.
	Go to the website, www.theunexplained.tv, and you can send me an email with your feedback and thoughts from there.
	If you'd like to make a donation to the show, you can do that on the website as well.
	And the website, devised and designed by Adam Cornwell at Creative Hotspot in Liverpool, very talented guy.
	Thank you for your ongoing support.
	David Icke coming soon on this show and also a special show about Britain's, I guess you could call it UFO Triangle, the area around Warminster in Wiltshire.
	We've got a man who spent 30 years investigating what goes on there.
	That'll be a great show emanating from the UK.
	Please take care.
	If you're in the springtime now, enjoy it because it doesn't last forever.
	So it's nice to see those temperatures going up here in the northern hemisphere.
	Look after yourself.
	Take care.

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