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Oct. 20, 2012 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes

01:00:18

Edition 94 - Space Wars, Richard Lennie

This time we speak to West of England Ufologist Richard Lennie who – like many people in theUS, is using night-vision technology to see what he thinks could be extra-terrestrial dogfights highabout earth.

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	Across the UK, across continental North America and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes and this is The Return of the Unexplained.
	Thank you again for your fantastic feedback and emails to the show.
	Please keep those emails coming.
	Seems to me that the email traffic mostly from North America now and also from Canada, New Zealand, United Kingdom, but the email traffic seems to be doubling every two weeks now.
	So something is happening out there.
	I think we're being linked to by various sites.
	And that's all good news.
	So please spread the word about the unexplained.
	And if you can go to the website, please go to the website.
	Very, very important that you put a hit on it.
	www.theunexplained.tv, www.theunexplained.tv and the website designed by the fantastic Adam Cornwell at Creative Hotspot in Liverpool.
	And you can send me email through the site, or you can also make a donation if you would like to.
	All contributions gratefully received at the moment.
	You may know that I've not been on the radio in London or anywhere for about five months now.
	I got a hearing problem, tinnitus ringing in the ears, after a virus earlier this year, and it effectively grounded me.
	It's been a very, very worrying time for me with no money coming in.
	But the good news is that last week I went to a specialist who said that I am now okay to go back on air, which is fantastic news because I've been on radio all my life doing news and programs and various things.
	So that is the best news I could have heard.
	Now the hard part is getting myself a gig back on radio.
	That's a bit of a work in progress.
	Let's see if we can do that because it is the thing that I have loved most in my life.
	I will keep you posted as I say.
	Right, let's just get to a couple of your emails now.
	I've had so many that I can't unfortunately get to them all, but I can talk about a few of them.
	Lots of you suggesting David Paul Edis as a guest, including Shell and Rob and many others.
	We've tried, as I think I said on a previous show, to email him many times.
	I've tried again twice recently.
	No response, but if you would like to put some pressure on him, we'd love to have him on the show.
	Sharon, thank you for your email.
	Dave Ketcham, thank you for yours.
	Scott Modlin in the US says that he thinks I'm the British Art Bell.
	Well, let me tell you, Scott, I'm very grateful for you saying that, but art is in a class of his own.
	I don't think I'm quite in that class, but then none of us is.
	And wherever you are, Art Bell, if you're in the high desert or the Philippines or wherever you are, a lot of us miss you.
	Paul Green, thank you for your email.
	Jeff suggests that we talk about telekinesis.
	Thank you for that, Jeff.
	Louis, thank you for yours.
	John, thank you for your email.
	James, who's a Bostonian in Iowa, thank you for your email.
	Kim and Roger Sanders, thank you for yours.
	Milk, thank you for your email.
	James Swagger tells me he has a book out.
	If you have a book out, James, or anybody has a book out that they think we might want to talk about on this show, then send me the details in a news release or a synopsis so I can see what it's all about.
	And then maybe we can take it from there.
	So James, if you can do that.
	And I've had quite a few emails from authors recently who'd like me to feature them.
	So if you can send me a synopsis, give me an idea exactly what the book is about.
	And then we can take it from there.
	And finally, as they say, James, rather Justin, suggesting David Graham in Atlanta on the moon landing hoax.
	Very topical that, of course, we lost Neil Armstrong, who was absolutely firm in assuring people that the moon landings did happen.
	And so was Edgar Mitchell, who I spoke to last year.
	But there are still people who say no, they didn't.
	So we can air that one at some point.
	All your suggestions gratefully received.
	Go to the website, www.theunexplained.tv.
	Now, the guest this time is a guy called Rich or Richard Lenny, known to his friends as Rich.
	He's in the West Country of England, and he's been using night vision technology to look for UFOs.
	And he says he's found them and has some amazing things to tell you about them.
	Like I say, he's not somebody who is internationally famous, but he is, he thinks, onto something.
	You make your judgment about him.
	Tell me what you think.
	We're about to connect now to the West of England and to Rich Lenny.
	Rich, thank you for coming on the show.
	That's okay.
	Thank you for having me, Howard.
	Now, I've got to say that I'm taking a bit of a walk on the wild side here, but I'm not afraid to do that.
	You're not as well known as some of the guests I've had on the show, but I think you're doing something interesting there.
	Whereabouts are you, by the way?
	Yes, that's great.
	Western Supermare.
	Okay, which is in the west of England.
	If you're listening in another part of the world, it's near Bristol, really, near the port of Bristol.
	It's a seaside town.
	That's right.
	And is UFO spotting big in Western?
	Yes, it is.
	Really?
	Have you got a group there?
	There is a small group, but there's been a lot of activity over the years.
	All right, and a lot of that connected with you, too, from what I understand.
	That's right, yes.
	All right, well, tell me a little bit about yourself then.
	What's your background?
	Do you have a background in science?
	You know, what got you interested?
	Okay, well, actually, my great-grandfather, Robert William Ditburne, he was a scientist and he wrote about nine books on the subject of light.
	And I think that's where I first got into it.
	And he helped to split the atom with Rutherford, so he was a very important person, really, in his own right.
	I was going to say that name Ditchburn, I'm sure that in my science classes years and years ago, we came across him, I'm sure.
	That's right.
	They do use his books, and I believe they still do today.
	And he's got a library named after him in Reading, where he lived.
	So he's pretty well known, I think, throughout the world.
	So the interest in life, the world, and everything, and how this planet works, and perhaps how other planet works, that was there, really.
	It runs in the family.
	It was, because he gave me a book, basically, on the planets, and it all started from there.
	And I obviously was interested in it before that, but with this book that he gave me, it was a beautiful book.
	I'll never forget it.
	I've still got it.
	And, you know, and it sort of went from there.
	And of course, the first thing I was thinking about is, well, is there life elsewhere?
	And I remember asking him the question.
	And I remember him saying to me that somewhere out there, there is definitely another form of life.
	We can't be the only ones.
	And I presume, like any young person, I know that was certainly the case for me.
	When somebody says something like that to you, it fires off an interest and you want to know more.
	That's right.
	Absolutely.
	And then of course I came across the books, you know, flying saucers in space and so on and so forth.
	And then of course you've got the movies.
	And then in 1980, December, I had my close encounter, which basically kicked everything off and it went from there.
	And that was in Uphill, which is two miles from Western Supermare, which is where I lived at the time.
	All right, you've got to tell me about that.
	30 years ago.
	Yeah, and funny enough, I've referenced it to the same time as the Rendlesham incident.
	Whether it's the same craft or not, obviously I'm not sure of, but six o'clock in the evening, Uphill is a village, by the way.
	Got off the bus from working town, went round the corner to where I lived, and above my school, uphill primary, there was these seven dots of red light in the distance.
	So I thought, oh, aircraft coming towards me.
	I'll have a look at this.
	So I waited and waited, and it got closer and closer, but there was no sound.
	The lights got bigger, and they were red, by the way, not white, which was unusual.
	And of course, being as it was December, it was dark.
	And of course, if they were navigation lights on a plane, we have to say that one of them would be white and one of them would be red.
	That's right.
	These were just solid red lights in like a sort of an arc.
	And yeah, they got really close.
	In fact, they got to the stage where they were literally above the school.
	And then they stopped.
	Now, at this point, I did have a witness because my other friend got off the next bus and he came around the corner and he said, hi, Rach, what are you doing?
	I said, well, look at this, Glenn.
	And he looked up and together we watched.
	And the outer two of the formation of seven went up, I don't know, it looked like sort of several feet into the air.
	And then they went round into a semicircle and then they came back down again into the formation.
	The other five stayed where they were in the ark.
	And then all seven of them went on and they went right over our heads.
	And as they went over, I looked up and it looked as if they were connected.
	You know, as if it was one complete craft.
	I could see some sort of structure there.
	Now, this formation story we've heard before, are you sure that you weren't influenced perhaps by something you read?
	No, absolutely not.
	I just finished work.
	Okay, I may have been a bit tired, but I was, you know, still awake.
	And the only thing that was a bit unusual about all this was there was no one else around.
	At six o'clock, you thought you'd see another car, maybe another bus, some people walking.
	It was just Glenn and me, and that was it.
	Do you think that whatever it might have been, and you know, there might have been a rational explanation for it, I guess you haven't found one so far.
	No, actually.
	But do you think it was trying to let you see it?
	Yeah, well, I did do some references on this, and that particular weekend, I can't remember what the day was.
	It may have been a Monday, Tuesday, but I know on the Friday, our Western Mercury came out, and one ball of red light was seen flying around Western Airfield.
	Okay, so the local newspaper reported something.
	But they only saw one.
	And a friend of mine later on said, yes, I saw it as well because he lived in Locking and it was near the airport and he saw it flying around.
	In fact, he was scared he ran indoors.
	But they all only referenced one, whereas Glenn and me, we saw the whole seven.
	But we have to say that where you live is very near Bristol.
	And anybody who knows Bristol knows that a lot of work was done on Concorde and aviation has been very big in that area for years.
	So how do you know it wasn't some kind of military aircraft?
	Yeah, that's true.
	But there was no sound.
	It went rather slowly.
	But then as it went past us, it shot off real quick and then it was gone.
	And when you say real quick, we hear stories from people, I've had them on here, who say these things go at speeds that you perceive in the sky that no plane could do.
	That's right.
	Well, it did go off real fast.
	I mean, it was, you know, I would say probably about the same speed as a jet, but like a red arrow jet or something like that.
	You know, it wasn't like amazingly fast, but it was fast enough.
	It went.
	But the thing was, there was no sound.
	And that basically was, I think, the niche.
	You know, that's what started me thinking, okay, there's something going on here.
	Because not too far from where you live, I can remember going on holidays in Wales.
	And certainly in mid-Wales, which is, what, maybe 80 miles north of where you are, the RAF still do low-flying exercises, but they make a hell of a lot of noise.
	And I remember seeing those, actually, when I was out in the car, you remember seeing the Jaguars and the Harriers, and that's correct, yeah.
	And they would do low bombing runs, and they use telephone boxes as targets.
	That's right.
	But this is something that couldn't have been that, you say, because it was very fast and very silent.
	Yeah, very fast, very silent.
	But to begin with, it was also very slow, and they even hovered.
	And of course, when they were hovering, I thought it must be Harry jump jets.
	But of course, there was no sound, no nothing.
	And Gunn and me looked at each other and said, what was that?
	But when we did get back home, I mean, I was literally a minute away from my house, by the way, from where this was.
	And I remember my, because I lived with my grandparents, I remember my nan saying to me, Richard, where are you?
	You've been late.
	And I said, well, yeah, we watched these UFOs.
	I called them UFOs.
	And she said, well, your T's all ruined.
	And I thought, well, I couldn't have been that late, surely.
	So I don't know.
	The only thing is I couldn't reference the time.
	All I know is I remember saying that my T was ruined and, you know, my T sort of ran about 6-ish.
	And so I don't know how long we were gone for.
	You haven't told me exactly how old you were then, I don't think.
	Okay, right.
	Well, we're talking 1980, Christmas, and now my birthday's in July.
	I'm now 50.
	All right, so you were.
	So you were late teens.
	Yeah, that's right.
	Yeah, so you're of an age where you're less likely to make stuff up.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Did you tell people about this?
	Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	I told my girlfriend, I told everybody, I told people to work.
	And then, of course, it came out about Friday in the Mercury.
	Absolutely, yeah.
	I've told quite a few people.
	There have been a couple in the village who I remember saying, remember saying to me they'd seen a red light flying around.
	So I can only reference it to the same.
	But we saw the whole formation.
	Nobody ever recorded the whole thing.
	That's the bizarre point about this story, is that it's been seen by other people.
	It's been in the paper, but only as one ball of light, you know, red light.
	I saw seven, or it looked like all seven.
	Well, there are different ways to look at these things, and a lot of people have experiences.
	My own grandmother saw what she believed was a UFO very, very early in the morning, this big silver craft.
	And it just became a story in the family.
	She didn't report it to anybody, and it never went any further.
	You know, most people probably would do that.
	But there are some people, and I'm guessing you're one of those people, you must be, to be talking now, who have a passion for the thing fired up at that point.
	That's right.
	And that's what started it.
	And then, of course, I Started getting the binoculars and going up on Roman Road, which is Bleeding Hill, which is above uphill.
	So I get higher up, and then I wanted to see these lights again.
	This is the thing, you see, where are they?
	I want to see them again.
	I did see some strange stuff.
	Balls of fire, which can be obviously referenced to anything, really.
	Fireballs, which I've seen in the sky quite regularly, shooting stars.
	Obviously, you see satellites that move across a point of light from horizon to horizon.
	That's nothing unusual.
	And we've got to say where you are is in the west country of England, which of course people in the UK will know, but people elsewhere won't.
	Yeah, we've got the tide that goes out the furthest in the whole of the country.
	Yeah, you've got the massive seven estuary there that I think they want to try and dam off to create power one of these days.
	Let's see what happens about that.
	I actually got flooded back in 1981.
	We had the floods, I don't know if you remember, in Uphill, and all the houses got flooded, and we had four foot of water.
	And so, yeah, it's an amazing area.
	It's almost like having a sea there, but it isn't a sea.
	It's a great big river estuary.
	It's quite remarkable to see.
	But where you are is not very far geographically from places like Stonehenge, really, and Bath, where there have been sightings and experiences in the past.
	Yeah, that's true.
	That's true.
	So anyway, so it all basically all stemmed from that.
	And then, of course, what happened was the internet came along a bit later on.
	And then obviously I was about to reference stuff from that.
	And I saw, oh, other people were seeing the same things as me, you know, these red lights in the sky.
	But they were also seeing other stuff as well.
	They were saying they're seeing triangle craft and they're seeing blue lights, green lights, you know.
	In your area?
	Yeah, in my area, in Bristol, Bath, in Western as well, and around.
	And I was thinking, well, how come they're seeing all this and I'm not?
	So I'd go out a little bit more maybe and wrap up and stay out for hours with my binoculars and hoping I'd see something.
	And then one day I found this gentleman on the internet called Mr. Ed Grimsley and he had his cell phone number on there.
	I thought, okay, and he can see UFOs through night visions.
	And I was thinking, wow, that sounds great.
	So I phoned him up to find out more about it.
	I was on the phone to him for about an hour.
	Lovely chap.
	And yeah, he was basically saying, look, Rich, you know, you don't want to use binoculars because a lot of the time these craft, they hide in the infrared spectrum or they seem to hide from our normal vision.
	You need a digital piece of equipment to show them up.
	And he said night visions, he discovered just purely by chance, it's perfect for that.
	Is this the kind of night vision technology that you can buy in some outdoor stores?
	Yeah.
	I mean, you can get them literally anywhere.
	I mean, I purchased my power on the internet, but yeah, you can do.
	That's right.
	If you go to anywhere that sells telescopes and binoculars, they will also have night visions there.
	Obviously, in America, it's slightly different.
	You'll get them in gun shops and places like that.
	But yeah, over here, that's going to be the sort of area.
	But I would say the internet is the best place.
	And I want to talk to you about something that you told me when we were not recording.
	That there are some kinds of night vision that they can use in America.
	They're very powerful.
	They're almost military grade.
	That officially we're not allowed to buy here in the UK.
	Is that right?
	That's correct, yeah.
	Basically, it starts from generation one and goes to generation four.
	And I believe they have right generation five.
	Now, generation, I'll go backwards.
	Generation four is military only.
	You can't purchase them unless you're in the military.
	And they start about 80,000 and go up.
	They're very, yeah, very, very expensive.
	So even if you wanted to, you really couldn't cash it.
	Exactly.
	Generation 3 is what they use in America.
	That's what Ed Grimsley uses.
	Now, they start around about $2,200, which is around about £1,500 here.
	The only trouble is, because they're illegal in this country, like Generation 4s are, unless you're in the military, if you try to purchase a pair in America and get them over here, they won't send them to you.
	And even says on there, they won't deliver to the UK.
	So that's quite bizarre.
	I have.
	Even Ed Grimsley, who's been doing this for years and is a pilot and everything, he doesn't understand why they're illegal in this country.
	But because it's bizarre, because the Generation 2 and 1s are, but Generation 3s aren't.
	Well, presumably, it's to protect the secrecy and privacy of any military craft that we might develop that might operate there.
	I mean, we're obviously shooting in the dark here, but grabbing for straws if you like.
	But yeah, that's what I think anyway.
	But they've got around this anyway.
	They've got a new one now, which is Generation 2 Plus.
	Now, Generation 2 Plus, and there's also a OnePlus as well.
	They can use them here in this country.
	They're fine.
	So 2 Plus is an equivalent to a 3.
	I know it sounds a bit complicated, but they're illegal here, and it's fine.
	And I've used both, by the way.
	I've used Generation 2 Plus and Generation 3, and to be quite honest with you, there isn't much difference between them.
	All right, so when you go out to somewhere without a lot of ordinary light pollution, somewhere in the country, and there are plenty of places near where you live that are like that, and you point a pair of good night vision binoculars or some good night vision sights into the sky, tell me, without talking about the UFOs first, what do you see?
	How is the sky different?
	It's amazing because the first thing you notice is you see three to four times as many stars.
	Three to four times as unbelievable.
	So if you're just an astronomer wanting to look at stars, get night visions because they are incredible.
	You just see, wow, you'll see a black spot in the sky, which you probably see in one or two stars.
	You put your night visions up to it and bang, you know, there's just hundreds of stars there.
	Because that's what they do.
	You see, they let any pinpoint of light that's out there, the night visions will obviously show it through onto its display screen.
	Because when you look through a pair of night visions, it's basically like a mini TV set.
	So if you can imagine, when I remember those little TVs you buy back in the 80s, the screen was like two inches by two inches.
	Well, this is like three or four inches by three or four inches.
	And basically, you've got this little black and white TV screen inside, and that's what you're looking at.
	And how do you know that if you buy a Generation 2 or a Generation 2 Plus and you look into the sky, how do you know that what you're seeing are things that are there and not artifacts that might be generated digitally, mistakes, errors?
	Yeah, that's true.
	That's very true.
	Yes.
	Nine times out of ten, you will see, well, let's put it this way.
	You'll see space debris.
	You'll see satellites, which we all obviously know about.
	We'll see bats flying around.
	So you can actually see satellites with these.
	Oh, yeah, very, very clearly.
	Yeah, you can see them and you see the sun shining off them and they literally just go right across the sky from hemisphere to hemisphere.
	And they go in a straight line.
	They don't do an awful lot.
	They will seem to flash every now and again, which of course is the sun shining off the panels of the satellite.
	But yes, you will get to see all that beautifully.
	The ISS, the International Space Station, when that goes over, if you've got your night visions and that, that's obviously really big.
	But you don't see any main detail because they're not that powerful.
	They're just basically emitting the light.
	So it will seem bigger through your night visions and seem a little bit clearer, but you won't see really much detail.
	And when there have been like shuttle missions when we had the shuttle, could you see anything connected with those?
	Yeah, I don't even remember when they were together, you could see a big sphere and then a smaller little one.
	And of course, that was the shuttle connected to the space station.
	So these things allow you, and I must admit, I don't know where I've been, but I didn't know they were this good.
	They give you a window on a whole other, I say a window on another world, not really a window on the whole universe.
	Yeah, they do.
	And it is amazing.
	You just wouldn't believe how many stars are up there.
	It is just incredible.
	And then so you're looking basically through these night visions.
	You see all these stars, maybe some planets as well.
	And then every now and again, something will shoot across the sky, probably a shooting star, you know, meteorite, whatever.
	And then all of a sudden, one of these pinpoints of light that looks like a star will start to move.
	And it will start to move slowly.
	And then it'll start to speed up and it'll go real quick.
	And then it'll curveball.
	And it'll do like an arc.
	And then it'll start to dive.
	And then it'll wiggle about a bit.
	And then it'll slow down.
	Then it'll stop.
	And you're thinking, what was that?
	You know, okay, it wasn't an in effect because it stopped and it's still there.
	And we're looking into space, by the way, now.
	Okay, we're not sort of, it's not just in front of me.
	And Rich, this might be a really silly question, but I'm very good at asking stupid questions, so here it goes.
	How do you know that this was not a kind of piece of space junk, perhaps a piece of debris from a satellite, an old satellite or a previous space mission?
	Something that is dithering on its way down to Earth again?
	Well, we do see those occasionally as well, and we know what they look like, and they've I mean, space debris moves around a little bit, and I suppose it can slow down, but these things literally stop completely dead in the sky, and then after a few minutes, they'll start to move again.
	Space debris doesn't do that.
	It floats around or it eventually comes down and burns up.
	All right.
	Tell me the first time you encountered one of these that made you think, wow, there's something else out there.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	I'll tell you.
	And it was amazing for me.
	But at the same time, I nearly sold them.
	When I purchased my night visions, Yukon Rangers, they're about £360.
	That's what I recommend.
	One plus.
	So they're not really expensive.
	I got them on the internet and I went outside in the back garden late at night and I started viewing the sky.
	And for three weeks, I saw nothing but stars, obviously, satellites and shooting stars.
	And that was it.
	And I was just about to put them back onto eBay to sell them when three massive, red big flying saucers flew over my house.
	And that's exactly what it was.
	Hold up.
	Flying saucers, you mean so discs?
	The classic flat, you know, discs.
	Three of them in like a diamond shape.
	They shot right over my house.
	I mean, when I say right over my house, I mean, they were high up, but they went over.
	And I was blown away by that.
	I thought, wow, that was amazing.
	So I waited in the same sort of position, the same sort of area.
	By the way, they were flying from south going north.
	And about, I suppose, 20, 25 minutes later, they went over again.
	I don't know if it was the same three or another set of three.
	We're talking about three o'clock in the morning now, so it was the middle of the night.
	It was cold.
	It was winter.
	You know, there was no one around.
	It was silent.
	It was a crystal clear night.
	And I saw these three craft and they looked huge.
	So how big they were, I don't know, but I think they were probably a couple of miles across at least each.
	And then as the sun was coming up, so it was getting on a bit.
	I mean, I stayed up all night.
	The birds were starting to sing and everything.
	It was a lovely crisp morning.
	They went over again, and I was able to still see them because it wasn't totally light.
	And the last time they went over, they were chasing, or it looked like they were chasing, the classic, which I call the Mexican hat style UFO, you know, the disc with the bobble on top.
	And that was just, it just blew me away.
	Unfortunately, I don't have any video footage of that.
	Oh, you said that these things that were huge, and I think I heard you say two miles across.
	They were very big.
	They were very big.
	They were very high up, so they must have been a couple of miles across each.
	And you say that there was some kind of chase occurring.
	The third time they went over, because the first thing I saw was this Mexican-style hat UFO, you know, the classic one with the bobble on top.
	That went over first, followed very quickly by these three discs.
	And then that was that.
	So I thought, okay, well, I'm not going to sell them.
	So I'm going to keep at it because it's obviously like fishing.
	You know, you can go out for hours or days and not catch anything.
	And then all of a sudden you'll catch loads of stuff.
	I phoned up Ed Grimsley again in America and told him what I'd seen.
	He said, yeah, Rich, that's fine.
	Keep at it, keep at it.
	So I did.
	And basically, I've had them now for about two and a half years, and I've seen so much stuff with them.
	Yes, I've seen normal stuff.
	And yes, I've been out for weeks and caught nothing.
	In fact, to be quite honest with you, at the moment, it's very quiet, but everyone is saying it's very quiet at the moment.
	We don't know why, but throughout the whole world, people are seeing UFOs, but not as much as they normally are.
	And then maybe one night you'll go out and you'll catch loads of stuff in one night.
	But we've seen UFOs chasing UFOs, you know, these craft that fly around the sky and curveball and stop and do amazing, amazing maneuvers.
	They're definitely, definitely intelligently controlled.
	I'm not saying, you know, there Are ETs or aliens flying these things?
	I'm not saying that, but what I am saying is they're definitely not space debris.
	They're definitely some sort of craft.
	We've worked that one out.
	They're definitely intelligently controlled.
	That is without a shadow of a doubt, definitely intelligently controlled.
	But what I and a lot of other ufologists think is that they're not actually got anybody inside them.
	We think they're controlled by something else that is maybe further away, like a bigger craft or something.
	We think these are like scout ships.
	They come down and they check out the area and then they fly off again.
	Like drones.
	Yeah, because we apparently have craft as well, which is back engineered, which are up there also that we see.
	And they've got like a little tiny tail to them.
	And they sometimes chase these spheres away.
	Now, I don't know if you remember.
	Hank, you've just made a huge leap in the story here.
	I think we have to explore that.
	Okay, yeah.
	You say that you believe that we have back-engineered craft that we are using to dance with these things, to spar with them.
	That's right.
	How do you know that?
	Okay, well, first of all, you know the typical dogfights of what we see on TV of World War II.
	Yeah, that's right.
	I mean, everyone will tell you this.
	If you speak to them about this subject, yes, it's a classic example of that.
	And I don't know if you know the story about Gary McKinnon, who found the off-world list of pilots when he was hacking into the computers.
	Well, that's what it's claimed anyway.
	Of course, Gary McKinnon will be known both sides of the Atlantic because we have just decided that he won't be extradited to America now.
	Any investigation that there will be will be in this country.
	Well, he seems to claim, anyway, I will state that.
	He claims that he found a list of off-world pilots and names of craft, which he cross-referenced to try and find if he could find the same sort of thing here on Earth, you know, because he thought it may have been submarines or boats or something like that.
	But he couldn't find these names anywhere.
	But he found that the pilots were top gun pilots.
	So they were obviously being groomed for something.
	And it was an off-world, which is what it was listed as.
	Well, of course, this is all conjecture and claimed, but fascinating claims.
	And we do know that stuff goes on that we don't know about.
	I think we can be fairly sure about that.
	Whether it's this particular stuff.
	Have you ever tried to contact Gary McKinnon?
	Right.
	Well, his mother's a friend of mine.
	Yes.
	Really?
	Yes.
	I explained to her who I was, what I did.
	And obviously, I can't speak to Gary because he wasn't allowed to go anywhere near computers.
	But Janice was on his behalf.
	We have to say that all of that is going through the process of legality now.
	And Janice Sharp is, from what I understand, having talked to her, a good mum.
	And I guess she's telling you what he's told her.
	But it's interesting that you had that contact.
	So you think that you've connected with something similar, really.
	You've discovered something similar.
	That's right, Howard.
	It's like a jigsaw puzzle.
	Do you know what I mean?
	This is all I'm doing.
	This is how I've become what I am now.
	I'm trying, because I've been a ufologist on and off for the past 30 years, but I've just gone into the mainstream, into the public eye this last 18 months, because I want to get the truth out there, because there's definitely something going on out there.
	There's stuff that I can't explain that I've seen.
	But what's come out of our conversation so far is that you've seen things over a period of years using technology, some of which is just on the fringes of legality in this country, but it is legal.
	You've seen things that make you think, and other people that you've talked to think that there is some kind of conflict or some kind of standoff, like the Cold War, going on in space.
	And then it got to the next stage where Ed Grimsley said he was going to come over to England.
	So I said, well, look, come and stay with me.
	So he came over for 10 days.
	He bought his night visions over.
	He bought his Generation 3's over.
	Did he?
	Yeah, he did.
	in his hold all bag and um i hope he's gone home now because we're telling the world He's back home now.
	Yeah.
	And then we went out up the hill.
	Obviously, we got less light pollution because that's obviously handy as well.
	And I looked through his Generation 3s and oh my, wow.
	You've got this green sort of background and obviously the field of view is so much bigger because they are so much bigger.
	And you see absolutely everything in detail.
	It's fantastic.
	And as soon as I put them up to the sky, again I saw even more stars than before because it's obviously letting more light in again.
	And straight away we saw craft.
	Ed had his, we had the laser pen because you use that to point to show where they are.
	Obviously you don't fire at aircraft but we would, you know.
	Well I was going to say they've had terrible experiences in many many countries including this one with those things.
	So we're not really advocating people use those are we?
	Absolutely yeah but we do use them for our own you know personal use when we're when we're skywashing when we know they're definitely not aircraft otherwise of course you wouldn't use them.
	Well I mean the problem is that you're not going to definitely know that.
	So I think we do have to say to people please do not use laser pointer pens into the sky because that is just not recommended.
	And the other thing I think we have to say because we obviously do this program to broadcast standard is those Generation 3 night visions are not legal in this country.
	So please, we are not recommending that you try to get them and you know the consequences.
	They're not legal.
	Please don't buy them.
	That's a fair point also.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Tell me the rest of the story.
	Yeah, so we were watching them through the night visions and they were basically straight away this one was coming across the sky in a sort of like a 45 degree angle and then out of nowhere this other craft came and started chasing it.
	And you could see that he could see it obviously and started to try and escape it.
	So we've got like a little dogfight going on here and then all of a sudden the one that was chasing it fired out like what looked like a little laser line.
	It looked like it was trying to hit it.
	So and then it buzzed out then it just shot right up into space and was gone and then the other one made a sort of like a descent and then he shot off.
	So that was really strange.
	I hadn't seen that before.
	So this thing actually fired out some sort of like a plasma ray or something.
	Like a little line came out of it and it looked like it was trying to fire something at it anyway.
	So and that was new to me.
	I hadn't seen that before.
	But obviously through these night visions.
	And all this stuff is happening in the sky over Western Super Mare.
	Yeah, we were over Western Super Mare.
	But don't forget this is high up.
	I mean we're talking in the ionosphere, 90,000 feet plus.
	And obviously, so you know, when they were flying over Western Super May, they would also be flying over perhaps parts of France as well.
	And, you know.
	Interesting, though, isn't it, that you're talking about 90,000 feet plus?
	Yeah.
	Which isn't all that high if you consider that that guy, Mr. Baumgarten, who's just leapt out of a plane from 100,000 feet, wasn't it, and went supersonic, that was where he was.
	Yeah, I watched the video to try and see if I could see anything.
	Can I tell you something?
	So did I. Yeah, that's right, right.
	I didn't see anything at all about you.
	No, no, I couldn't catch anything on that one.
	But so we saw those, and yeah, so that was cool.
	Ed, as I said, stayed with me for a few days, and I sent him, I took him, didn't send him, I took him to see a few of the relics around Stonehenge and so on and so forth, which he was really pleased about.
	But yes, these night visions were so much better.
	And you can imagine what the Generation 4s must be like if Generation 3s are that good.
	Which again are illegal in the UK, I presume.
	Absolutely.
	It's only illegal use.
	When you went to Stonehenge, by the way, I was there quite recently.
	Did you try and observe from there?
	Yeah, we did.
	That's right.
	That's one of the reasons we went there.
	Okay.
	I didn't catch anything that night, but a friend of mine a few weeks later did see some lights ascending from the sky.
	So there is stuff going on around there, but unfortunately, I wasn't a witness to that.
	We mentioned the Gary McKinnon case.
	That had very serious consequences for Gary, which are ongoing consequences.
	Do you worry about the possible consequences of what you might have discovered for you?
	Yes, I do.
	It does go through my mind.
	I mean, Ed Grimson in America, he's been approached, shall we say, because he had a video that he wanted to show of a craft firing a laser at another craft, and he was told under no circumstances was he to show it.
	So he didn't.
	You've got videos, though, haven't you?
	Yeah, I've seen a video myself, but he won't show it.
	He's not allowed to show it to any of his.
	But haven't you got some of your own videos from this country?
	Yes, I have.
	Yes.
	And what about those?
	Any problems with those?
	No, in fact, I've just come back from Truro in Cornwall, where last Saturday, it was a week today, I was there doing a conference.
	I was the last speaker of the day, and basically I've got footage of some lasers coming down into a ladies' garden.
	To cut a long story short, I did a programme last year on TV called Rich Planet TV, and one of the gentlemen from the audience had been up to the Leeds conference two weeks before, Exopolitics.
	Oh, that was the one that Richard Hoagland was at, yeah.
	That's right, yeah.
	But there was a lady there in the audience who was basically in tears because she lives in Devon and she was seeing all these things coming down into her garden.
	So she met this friend of mine.
	And so after I did the show with Richard, he came and talked to me in the car park and said, look, Richard, I've got this lady seeing a load of stuff in her back garden.
	If I give you her phone number, would you give her a ring?
	I said, yeah, of course.
	So I phoned her.
	I was on the phone to her for about an hour.
	She's telling me all these things.
	Since the 6th of July, sorry, 6th of November 2010.
	So it was a Saturday.
	She was looking out of her bedroom window watching a fireworks display that was going on.
	And she started seeing these craft, basically similar to what I see through night visions, but with her own eyes.
	And they were coming down into her garden.
	Now, she has got a lot of area.
	She's got 21 acres of land.
	She's got a massive big house, so she has a lot of land.
	But she wasn't before this an observer of the sky.
	She didn't even believe in UFOs.
	She wasn't even interested in them, had no interest whatsoever.
	The lady's in her late 60s, a lovely lady, but she's not interested in them at all.
	I presume she is now.
	Well, she's got no choice because she says she sees them everywhere.
	They land in a garden, apparently.
	She sees the ETs.
	Yes, she sees them.
	She's described them to me, what they look like.
	Look, off the air or send me an email.
	Let me know who this is because I would be keen to talk to her.
	Of course, yeah, of course.
	Absolutely.
	And what are you, I mean, did you say you've talked to her?
	Yes, well, I went down there and stayed the night.
	Okay, and just give me your impressions then.
	What did you think of her?
	Right, okay.
	She said I can see lasers coming down in my garden now, Richard.
	Look, look, because we were at the front of her property.
	It was about half nine at night.
	I saw nothing.
	I went and got my night visions, because obviously I took those with me.
	I saw nothing.
	Now, this was worrying me.
	I wasn't seeing anything night visions.
	The only thing I didn't do on my night visions, I didn't switch to infrared, because if you do that, it slaps the batteries, and I needed it for later on in the night.
	So I had a camcorder with me, which of course has got infrared night shot on it.
	So I used that.
	And there they were.
	And I could not believe it.
	They weren't there when I looked through my own eyes.
	They were there through the camcorder.
	It was almost as if I put a tape into the camcorder and was playing a tape from somewhere else.
	But it was a blank tape.
	It was brand new.
	And I hadn't even started recording.
	I was just literally looking through the camcorder.
	So of course she started recording.
	And I recorded for about 20 minutes.
	And these lasers were firing down from the sky.
	I would say she'd got trees in her garden.
	Those fern trees are really tall.
	They were above the fern trees.
	So unless there was a gentleman hanging from a helicopter with a laser pen firing down onto a property, there was no way you could implicate it.
	You're Me, there's increasing these days, of course.
	We certainly have them here in London.
	The police make great use of helicopters.
	And they always seem to be chasing somebody around here at night.
	And they have lights of various kinds.
	Are you absolutely sure that that's not the kind of thing that you were seeing?
	Absolutely.
	I can show you.
	I can send you the video if you like.
	No noise, no nothing.
	It was drizzly night.
	It had been raining.
	Absolutely silent.
	And it wasn't a searchlight.
	It was a laser beam, if that makes sense.
	In other words, when you zoomed out from the picture, so you saw it from your, as if you could see it with your eyes, which of course you couldn't.
	It was a very thin beam.
	You know, when you fire a laser pen, I know you shouldn't do this, but when you do fire a laser pen at night, it's like a very thin beam.
	It was just like that.
	But when you zoom in, of course, it gets a lot thicker.
	And at the top of the beam, there's like a plasma.
	It looked like a little plasma ball, and it was dancing around really erratically.
	And there was three of them as well.
	It wasn't one, there was three.
	And then after about 15 minutes, they moved around to the back of the property.
	It was so bizarre.
	But you could not see them with your naked eye, only through the camcorder.
	But this lady could see them.
	Because she even said, look, Richard, she told me where to point the camcorder.
	It is unbelievable.
	There's no way you can fake that.
	I mean, there is absolutely no way you could fake it.
	So I was blown away by this, obviously.
	And in the morning, I went out to have a look to see if there was any scorch marks where the lasers had landed.
	There wasn't, but I'll tell you what there was.
	There were holes in her garden, and they were a 45-degree angle, a couple of inches across, going exactly five inches down, because I measured it.
	And the holes were beautifully made.
	I mean, it was like glass.
	The mud was so smooth, if you can imagine it.
	It's just like glass looking down into it.
	So if we're to believe this, what we're looking at is something that has almost like the precision of a surgical instrument.
	That's right.
	Being apparently, by the looks of it, on the face of it, being fired from somewhere in near space.
	Yeah, there were acorns lying around.
	They were like literally laser cut.
	I mean, you couldn't even try it with a sharp blade.
	You could do it, but it wouldn't be perfectly like that.
	And did you keep any of those dissected acorns?
	I've got them in my bedroom now, yeah.
	I took them home with me.
	Now, if I were you, the problem being, you know, an ordinary Joe getting involved in these things is it's very hard to get access to people with real expertise.
	I'm talking about scientists, military people, that kind of thing.
	Have you or do you plan to do that?
	Yeah, I do.
	In fact, I've tried to get a couple of guys from America to come over at Grims, he knows.
	And we're going to sort something out.
	We're going to definitely sort something out.
	But there is a snag to this little story.
	There's an American lady who now lives in this country, and she's stopping people from going around to this lady's house unless you pay about £100 to stay the night there.
	Well, you know, I don't know about that.
	Is she a friend of this person?
	If she's acting as her agent, then there's nothing wrong with that.
	No, there's nothing wrong with that, absolutely.
	But yeah, it just seems that all of a sudden it's gone from, yeah, come on down, you know, try and find out what's going on here to making it a sort of a business.
	But yeah, that I wasn't too happy with.
	But so I wanted to go down again, of course, because I wanted to finish off trying to figure out exactly what was going on because there were other strange marks in her garden as well.
	It looked like something had landed.
	And as far as you talked to her, you stayed there.
	As far as she told you, has she tried to get the answer to this?
	Has she tried talking to the local RAF Air Force command?
	She hasn't done that, I don't think.
	But she's been to a doctor, obviously, because she thought she was going crazy.
	She's talked to other ufologists, she's talked to people in the know.
	And she has had someone else come down and stay before I did, in fact.
	And he got some amazing footage as well of what looked like a craft landing in a back garden.
	I've seen the video.
	It's amazing.
	But what all of this implies, Rich, is something that I've heard other people talk around, but never as clearly as this.
	That there is some kind of battle being fought on a level that is above us, literally and metaphorically above us.
	And whether we're part of this battle or not, we can't really be sure.
	No, and it's hidden in the infrared spectrum or it's hidden in the digital part of the, you know, our eyes can't pick it up.
	But if you just watch a television program like Top Gear or something like that, you'll see stuff flying around.
	And if you whiz back on your Sky Plus and pause it, you'll see little spheres.
	Sometimes they're birds, obviously, or debris from the ground.
	But there are stuff flying around.
	I mean, even TV cameras pick them up.
	But they're in between frames and you've got to know what to look for.
	But yeah, they're out there, whether you're looking through night visions, whether it's from a TV camera.
	I mean, if you went outside now and you got your cell phone and you took off about five shots in the blue sky, I can guarantee you that after a while you'll pick something up.
	Well, yeah, and I've done that quite recently in two locations, one of which was Stonehenge.
	And you look at the photographs and you think, hang on, there are little specs there that look like something in formation.
	And because the digital camera has, what, 14 megapixels upwards now, the definition is pretty good.
	So you're able to really zoom in on it.
	And when you zoom into the specks, which appear to be in formation, in my case, they were birds.
	Yeah.
	This is what you've got to be careful of.
	And I've had that happen to me too.
	But then other times you'll zoom in and it's a perfect ball.
	The sun's shining off it.
	It's metallic.
	It's got form.
	You know, you can see it's not a bird.
	Other times, oh, it's a bird or it's a light aircraft or whatever, you know.
	But you will catch these fears.
	They are around.
	They're there.
	They're there all the time.
	It's just a question of being in the right place at the right moment, I suppose, when you take them.
	If I've got time to tell you a little story, only a few weeks ago, my brother was washing his car.
	He saw a helicopter go over.
	This again is over uphill.
	He thought, wow, because he likes helicopters.
	And then he saw what he thought was another helicopter coming over, and it was a classic flying disc.
	He took off three or four shots with his cell phone, and they're beautiful.
	I mean, to look at it, you'd think it was probably a fake photo because it's too good, really.
	And they're up there, you know.
	What can I say?
	So hang on, you're saying that your brother in broad daylight took a picture of a classic UFO.
	Literally, you know, when I say classic, I mean the flying saucer.
	And he's not a UFO person like you.
	No, he knows what I do, but when he saw it, he took the photographs because he knew I'd be interested in them.
	But when he first saw this second object, he thought it was another helicopter.
	But as he watched it, it seemed to be disappearing and reappearing, but it wasn't in cloud.
	It literally just seemed to disappear and reappear.
	So it's got a cloaking device on it, and he had problems with its cloaking device.
	I don't know.
	But he took off several shots, five in total.
	One of them, there isn't a UFO there at all.
	So obviously that's when it made itself disappear.
	And then the fifth shot, he's got it back again.
	You sound very sincere and very driven about all of this.
	What would you say to people who are going to say to me, this man is either, one, a hoaxer, or two, he's seen too many episodes of Star Trek the Next Generation.
	This is the problem I've got.
	And I was going to say this at the beginning of your program, but everything I'm going to tell you is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
	And obviously, you know, if that's not good enough, then what I can say to people out there is, look for yourself.
	You know, buy a pair of night visions for a few hundred pounds, go out at night, wrap up warm, and just wait.
	And I can guarantee you 100%, you'll see stuff that you cannot explain.
	Now, as far as we're aware, this is still a democracy in this country, although at the moment there would be some people who might have reason to question that.
	We all have members of parliament MPs representing us in parliament.
	It's not just the price of gas that people can question them about.
	They can Also, go and ask questions about this.
	Have you ever thought of going to your local MP and saying, Look, here's my dossier of evidence.
	There's something going on here.
	Do you know about it?
	Yes, I have thought about that.
	I've also thought about maybe the consequences if I did.
	I don't want to have somebody try and shut me down.
	I just want to.
	But the trouble is, you see, you want more publicity and you want to get this stuff out there.
	And I think it's useful that you do, obviously.
	That's why I'm talking to you.
	The problem for you is that if you have peripherally found something that perhaps somebody somewhere doesn't want the world to know about just yet, you do put yourself at a certain amount of risk.
	Once you put your head over the parapet, there is a possibility somebody might take a shot.
	And, you know, I guess you have to be ready for that.
	Yes, I do.
	That's right.
	And Ed's already told me that.
	So, yeah, it's one of those things.
	Unfortunately, it comes with the territory of doing this.
	But I try not to think about that.
	I just want people to know what's going on above their heads.
	I think they have a right to know.
	I've now seen it.
	If I've got time, I'll tell you something else I've seen, which is slightly different, but it was through night visions as well.
	And that was a craft that was moving up vertically in the middle of the night.
	Again, it always seems to be around about three o'clock when a lot of activity happened.
	And then it stopped.
	And then again, it sort of morphed into two.
	So we have two of these spheres, and then it went back into one.
	It did this a couple of times.
	And I thought, okay, I'm going to watch this.
	This looks odd.
	And then a beam of light came out of it.
	And it came out quite far.
	And then it stopped.
	And then the beam of light, this all happened very slowly.
	The beam of light then went back inside the craft again.
	And I thought, wow, what was on all that?
	And the next thing I know, it just fired off like the Enterprise, you know, real fast.
	I mean, I've never seen anything go fast.
	And we're talking very fast now, fast than any jet.
	I mean, it was incredible.
	It was gone in the blink of an eye.
	I couldn't even chase it.
	And then there was a flash after about 10 seconds later.
	And this is a clear sky, by the way, no clouds or anything.
	So I can only assume maybe that what I witnessed was a craft preparing for and going into light speed.
	That's what it seemed like to me.
	I mean, a lot of the stuff that we now are talking about is stuff that we just have to make assumptions about because we don't have the answers.
	One thing that occurs to me about it, though, is you could be in a situation where perhaps there is some kind of battle going on.
	And perhaps governments on this planet, we know they know more than they tell us, but perhaps they know a hell of a lot more than they tell us.
	And perhaps they're involved in this.
	And in a way, you're blowing the gaff on it.
	You are revealing that this thing is going on.
	And you want people, ordinary people like myself, to ask questions about it.
	And I'm just wondering if that is what's going on, how useful this is.
	You know, sometimes ignorance is bliss.
	Do people really want to know that that kind of stuff is happening?
	Would it not cause instability?
	Would it not make people worry?
	That's true.
	I've talked to people and they'd rather not know, which is fine.
	That's up to them, isn't it?
	I mean, look, you are, and I am in the camp that I would like to know.
	But there are millions of people, I'm sure, who like their reality TV on a Saturday night who really wouldn't want to know about this.
	Yeah, and I think a lot of people are like that.
	I mean, you can call them blinkered or you can call them, that's, you know, their prerogative.
	But I know I'd rather want to know the truth, personally.
	Should the truth be let out?
	Maybe it would cause a lot of problems.
	I don't know.
	It could do the opposite, couldn't it?
	It could stabilize the planet more.
	I don't know.
	All I do know is that I think people have a right to know what's going on above their heads.
	I can think of at least a dozen very big questions that if I were you, I would be asking.
	What do you plan to do next?
	Now that you've got this dossier of information, now that you suspect that there's something going on, what do you want to do next with it?
	Right.
	Well, I want to take it to the next stage.
	I want to try and obviously get some sort of website up and running so I can put all these onto the website so people can see them.
	And then after that, I think the only other thing to do is really, apart from going to the government with it, is getting some sort of Skywatch and getting groups of people to view, like Ed does in America, so they can see for themselves before purchasing one of these.
	And then maybe if we can get enough people to rally around and the voice can be heard, then maybe the government will do something about it anyway.
	But it's already started.
	I've got people from all over the world that send me stuff that I've recommended, you know, using night visions and they're sending me their videos.
	So it's working.
	It's already started.
	And even if you don't get people trying to close you down, I mean, officials try to close you down, you will get people saying, here's just somebody who's a bit deluded who thinks he's Captain Jean-Luc Picard.
	Yes, that's true.
	I've had a computer already burned out.
	I don't know whether it was through some other means, but, you know, I've had people sort of messing about with the phones.
	Yeah, that's as far as it's gone really.
	It hasn't gone as well.
	When you said you had a computer burned out, I don't what he meant by that.
	We had a top-the-range Tony Veyo, and the next day it just had it.
	We had to get it replaced.
	The whole thing had just gone completely.
	It was just blank screen, I think.
	And did you have material about this research on there?
	When I first started doing it.
	Got to back up your data.
	Yeah, I know.
	I know.
	Well, of course, I've learned that now.
	I do that.
	No matter how good the computer is, and I had a Vio for years.
	It was wonderful.
	My Vio was fantastic, but I always backed up my data.
	But again, like you, you learn this the hard way, as I did.
	That's right.
	It's only when you lose all your documents and all your records that you think, oh my God, what have I done?
	So that's why I've bought external disks to do that.
	Yeah, that's the best thing to do.
	Nick Pope, I noticed you've interviewed.
	Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned Nick Pope because he would be the first person I would go to.
	Well, funny enough, I was just going to say that to you.
	That's who I've already been to.
	He was the first person I went to.
	And was he interested?
	Oh, yes, yeah, yeah.
	He was very good to me.
	I mean, I've speaking to Nick since 1996 on the phone when he used to work for the MOD.
	And last year, I did a conference there in Swindon, Weird 11, and he was there.
	And so I met him for the first time.
	And we just have to say, for our listeners who may be new to the show, lots of people joining the show all the time, Nick Pope is a man who used to work as a UFO investigator or verifier or researcher for the Ministry of Defense here.
	He's now an independent consultant working on these matters.
	So, you know, he is a man who knows.
	Sorry, carry on with the story.
	That's right.
	And he has actually now moved to America, but he still does conferences over there and stuff like that.
	And occasionally he comes over to England, which he did this time.
	And I told him about the experiences, and he said just to keep up with it, basically.
	But he said to me that you need somebody back at the MOD doing what I used to do.
	Because obviously he used to, you know, look after all the files and everything.
	But I don't know if you know this, they've sort of closed it down now.
	Well, they did, and the British government has been releasing some of that information, but a lot of material in that has been redacted, taken back, declared secret.
	They've moved up to the top floor, and what they're doing is they're filing everything and then just bringing stuff out every now and again.
	But he says it needs somebody like me to get back in there and sort all out.
	So he said, why don't you do it?
	Well, you'd have to, I think with the state of the British government's finances right now, you'd have to do it for free.
	That's right, exactly.
	And I don't know if I worked for the MOD, whether that would be a good idea, which might do.
	Nick Pope, on the many occasions that I've talked to him, both on this show and on the radio, he's always said that the one thing about UFO reports is that the vast majority of them have a rational explanation, and a very small percentage of them don't.
	Yes, that's right.
	He does.
	He takes credit a lot from pilots.
	He likes the stories that pilots give because obviously they know the skies.
	They're used to looking into the sky and seeing stuff and knowing what they are.
	So when they see something they can't explain, obviously that's, you know...
	So I think you'll find a lot of pilots are seeing these things up there, but it's getting to a stage where they're just not bothering to report it anymore.
	From a dossier I read recently, a lot of pilots see UFOs, they don't even report it.
	So it's sort of going without mentioning now, which is a shame.
	Look, I have to say that I've flown many, many, many times down to South Africa on various airlines.
	And I always love that flight because you go over Central Africa.
	And literally, over Central Africa, there are a lot of countries that are not as developed as ours there.
	So they don't have the infrastructure, the great big industry, the lights that we have.
	And in the middle of Africa, you can look out, and I do.
	And it's completely dark.
	I mean, totally, completely dark.
	And the only light you see is the stars.
	And over the, how many years is it now?
	18 years or so that I've been flying backwards and forwards up and down there to see that place because as a tourist, I love it.
	I've always looked and I've always hoped.
	In fact, in the days when you were allowed to stand in the cockpit, a couple of times I went up front with the guys and looked and they said, in the middle of Africa, I don't know whether it's changed now, but this was certainly 10 years ago.
	The only communication that they have is shortwave radio because there's no, you know, they don't have the infrastructure.
	Maybe they've got satellites now.
	But you really are on your own.
	It's completely dark and the planes communicate with each other by flashing lights.
	So a plane going the other way up to London or to Paris, whatever.
	And if you're going down to Johannesburg, the other plane will pass underneath you and they'll flash their headlights like cars do at each other.
	But I've stood there in the days when you were allowed to on the flight deck and I've looked up and I've peered hoping to see something and I never have.
	And I've concluded that I'm just one of those people who's never going to see anything.
	But you're saying there's a technology that might allow me to get in the game.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	If you, during daytime, for instance, if you just recorded five minutes out of your window on your phone or something like that, you never know.
	You may pick something up.
	But not everyone can see them with their own eyes, but there are people who can.
	This lady, Dan Devon, obviously has been able to now since two years, since 2010.
	The other thing is, look, this Generation 3 and Generation 4 night vision that is illegal in the UK and you can't own, do you feel like campaigning to have that stuff made legal here?
	Because if they can own it in America, then there has to be a very good question to be asked as to why we can't have it here.
	That's right.
	I have thought about it, but I've heard now that they're trying to ban all night visions.
	Whether that's going through Parliament at the moment as a white paper or not, I don't know, but that's what I was told recently.
	So, which isn't good if that's going to happen.
	Well, I can see one argument for it.
	If you're a bad guy and you're planning to do something bad by night, maybe break into somewhere or whatever, it would help you massively to have some kind of technology that would allow you to see the cops coming.
	So I can see a reason for that.
	Yeah, but it would be a shame for obviously for me if all of a sudden they made an illegal.
	Well, the only other way to do it is to have a licensing system like you have with firearms and to register people like you.
	But how on earth do you oversee that?
	No, exactly.
	And the other thing is that that technology is on the streets.
	People have it in America.
	And those things, it's flexible, isn't it?
	There will be people who have that technology and they know they're breaking the law and they should not be using it, we have to say.
	They say that it comes from back engineered, don't they?
	The night vision bit.
	A lot of people are saying that I don't know how true that is, but they're saying that we got the technology from a back engineered piece of equipment that was found, I don't know, by a crash UFO or whatever.
	And we took it from that.
	And that's how all of a sudden we had night visions.
	Sounds to me like you want to get answers to these questions very quickly in your mind.
	Absolutely.
	So what is the next thing you're going to do?
	You're going to start the website.
	That's one thing you have to do.
	Yeah, I'm going to start the website.
	I'm going to try and do some more talks if I can, get myself around the country.
	And the other thing is there must be a network of people in this country.
	You know, you're in contact with people in America, but there must be a network of people in the UK and in Europe who are doing what you're doing.
	You need to hear from them.
	Yes, that's right.
	There are.
	There's people in Scotland, you know, all over the country, in Wales.
	They contact me now, which is good because I've got the account on Facebook, which people are sending me stuff and emailing me stuff.
	And because I'm recommending night visions to buy, and they're buying them, and they are finding craft, and they're sending me their footage, because you can connect through these night visions, by the way, a lead that goes to a cancorder.
	And then you just put a little portable TV next to the cancer, and basically what you see through night visions comes out on the TV screen.
	So of course you record the TV screen and there you are.
	You've got whatever you're seeing.
	So people are sending me these images and it's fantastic.
	I mean, you've got like triangle craft, you've got stars that seem to be connected together that fly at the same rate and speed.
	You've got stuff that morphs and changes into different shapes.
	And we're seeing all these as well as normal stuff.
	Even when NASA was sending the space shuttle up and you could get the live feed down from NASA, I was watching that and you saw strange things flying out of the Earth and going into space.
	I think you need to get talking to your local MP.
	Tell them that you're interested in this and see if you can get a question asked in Parliament or see if you can get some kind of answers that might help to ease your mind about all of this or at least increase the amount of knowledge.
	I think that ought to be one of your steps.
	But Rich Lenny, listen, very good to talk to you.
	I think so, too.
	That's all right, no.
	Thank you for having me.
	Please keep in touch.
	Let me know what you're up to.
	You know how to email me.
	If you can, send me that video and I will try and put it on the website, okay?
	I'll do.
	I'll send it to you this weekend.
	All right, Rich.
	Thank you very much indeed for helping us here at The Unexplained.
	And I wish you well with your work.
	And, you know, be careful out there.
	Thank you, Alice.
	Take care.
	Thanks, buddy.
	Well, a fascinating and slightly frightening thought, really, that there might be some kind of battle for this planet happening way above this planet in a realm of the spectrum that we cannot see unless, of course, we use night vision.
	Richard Lenny there doing research on that.
	And if he has anything new to say, of course, we'll put him back on here.
	And I'm going to try and put the video that he shot on the website, www.theunexplained.tv.
	If we can get it up there via Adam Cornwell at Creative Hotspot, then we will.
	Thank you very much for supporting this show.
	Please keep the faith with it.
	Tell your friends about it.
	Spread the word about it and send me your feedback about the show.
	Tell me what you think about it.
	Tell me what I can improve about it.
	And if you would like to make a donation to the show, that would be fantastic, especially at this time.
	So that's it.
	More unexplained shows in the pipeline, more planning being done.
	So I'll get back to that.
	Again, thank you so much for your support.
	And please rejoin me for another edition of The Unexplained very soon.

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