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Nov. 28, 2007 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes

01:03:59

Edition 7 - Richard C Hoagland

The Unexplained returns with a one hour interview with Richard C Hoagland, current author ofthe New York Times Best Seller Dark Mission.

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	From London, right across the world, by webcast and podcast.
	My name is Howard Hughes, and this is the Return of the Unexplained.
	Thank you very much for all the emails that I've had over these months that I haven't been here on the internet.
	From people who heard the show before and liked it and wanted to come back to it, and from people who just discovered the show for the very first time.
	I've tried to email you back.
	I know there are one or two emails that I haven't got around to yet.
	I promise I will reply to all the emails.
	And it's good of you to take time out to email me.
	Now, the story of why I've been away for these last three months is simple.
	Earlier this year, I won an award for contribution to commercial radio in the UK.
	Kind of milestone for me.
	I've been getting up at four o'clock for most of my working life, 4 a.m., to go to work.
	And I've really enjoyed it.
	It has been my entire life.
	But I decided after winning the award that it was time to maybe take a break.
	So I've taken a few months out.
	I've done some traveling.
	I've enjoyed myself.
	I've done a few things that are very personal to me.
	And now I'm getting back literally into a working mode.
	And these words that I'm speaking into a microphone now are the first such words in many months.
	So it's a really interesting experience to have the old headphones on again and be talking into a broadcast microphone.
	But for me, you know, it's meat and drink.
	I love it.
	It's been my life.
	So in a way, I wonder if you can relate to this whenever you've taken a break, but it's relieving to be back doing it.
	Now, this one is going to be a special.
	I hope it is.
	Let me know what you think.
	I'm going to have on Richard C. Hoagland, American space expert and a man who's got a best-selling book in the United States, lifting the lid and blowing the covers off NASA, the North American Space Administration.
	He says, for a start off, NASA was not set up to do what you think it was set up to do, and that is explore space.
	It was set up for much more than that.
	And secondly, in leading on from that, is that they've found things out there that they've known they were going to find.
	They haven't told you or I about them.
	And they know about civilizations on the moon, for example, and many, many other things.
	And it's all in the book.
	Richard C. Hoagland's book has been so successful in America, it's only been out a couple of months, and it's into its fourth reprint now.
	And that's going some.
	It isn't out in the UK yet, but I'm told it will eventually be.
	We'll ask Richard what the time scale is on that.
	But it's very good to have him online because he's doing a lot of media in the United States at the moment.
	So, Richard, nice to have you on, my friend.
	It's really nice to be here.
	Well, Richard, it's been a while since we talked, and you are now a very successful man.
	And fourth reprint in this book?
	How long has the book been out?
	The book has only been formally out since October 9th.
	Okay, so it's, what, six weeks now, and it's into its fourth reprint.
	I have no idea if that's a record, but that's going some in anybody's book.
	Well, the thing that's really thrilling is that it's on the New York Times bestseller list.
	One of my colleagues that I admire very much over here in the United States is named Chris Matthews, who anchors a nightly network news show.
	He's got a new book called Life as Politics.
	And he was complaining the other day to the audience that his book is not on the New York Times bestseller list.
	So I guess we have accomplished something.
	And what it means to me is, as you know, I do a variety of media here in the States.
	A lot of times I'm doing a program called Coast to Coast AM, which is nightly in all states and actually can be heard on the internet around the world.
	And it deals specifically with the kind of material that you've done, Howard, there, which is what I hate the term used in terms of the paranormal, the anomalous.
	I prefer cutting-edge, unusual subjects, unusual research, et cetera, et cetera.
	I kind of like the unexplained myself.
	And the unexplained.
	What's important is that because of the amazing showing on the New York Times list, based primarily on the coast audience, because I've not done national television yet on this book, which by the way, I have to include, I wrote with Mike Berra,
	my good friend and colleague Mike Berra, we're still number 21 on the New York Times list, and that indicates to me the power of A, an audience for this type of research, for this type of investigation, and B, that we have managed to mainstream from the area of the unexplained and anomalous into the mainstream arena.
	I mean, you know, being on that list is only second probably to getting the Nobel Prize in certain quarters.
	So I feel this is an accomplishment equivalent to winning some kind of an election.
	Well, it looks that way.
	Do you think it also means, though, Dick, that people are just tired of mainstream politics and they're tired of Iraq and they're tired of all the other stuff and they really want to look beyond that to what the real story of the world might be?
	Well, I think the title helps enormously.
	It's called Dark Mission, The Secret History of NASA.
	And given that in this country, we have been demonstrating now to us over and over again that we've been lied to by government at every level, up to and including the White House, I believe that what we've tapped into is a very important strain of people who are sick to death, as you just said, of being lied to.
	And they look to people like me, who they followed for years, as people who will tell them the truth, regardless of whether it's unpalatable or even unbelievable.
	And the nice thing about Dark Mission is we have amazing documentation.
	We have evidence that you can only dream about in other quarters.
	And we document, document, document.
	So when we make these claims, and they are extraordinary claims, we do have the extraordinary evidence to back them up.
	Now, this brings us to the why you are doing this.
	There are people who will be listening to this now who, of course, have heard Coast to Coast AM in the States.
	I hear from those people on email.
	People also who heard my radio show that I used to do on Talksport here across the UK and across Europe.
	But we're picking up people all the time who are hearing this for the first time.
	So I think we just need to do a little bit of what they call in the UK curriculum VTI, what you call resume on you.
	Well, I started out very mainstream myself.
	I was a museum curator.
	I was the youngest curator of astronomy and space science in New England back in the early 1960s.
	And then one day I got a phone call, and it was a gentleman named Frank Menitsis.
	I remember his name vividly.
	We'll never forget Frank.
	He was an associate producer with CBS News Special Events.
	Now, CBS News, for you in Britain, of course, is the home of Edward R. Murrow, who did those amazing broadcasts during World War II, you know, the bombing of London, etc., etc.
	And that network employed, among other people, a young reporter out of the Midwest called Walter Cronkite.
	Walter Cronkite rose to become anchor of the CBS Evening News.
	He was known for a long time in his career.
	In fact, he really still is, as the most trusted man in America.
	Well, polls showed that Walter Cronkite could go on during the Vietnam War, and the viewing public of America would trust what he had to say more than they would trust the politicians.
	And when President Johnson saw Walter come back from Vietnam, when I was at CBS, and Walter did that famous broadcast basically saying that the U.S. had lost the Vietnam War, Johnson is reported to have turned to his aides and said, well, we've lost the country if we've lost Walter.
	So the incredible thing that happened to me was that in the middle of my museum career in the mid-60s, I got a phone call one day from this Frank Manitas character who worked for Walter Cronkite, and they said, we're going to the moon and we'd like to help you go with us.
	And that's how I wound up as science advisor to CBS News Special Events and to Walter Cronkite covering the Apollo program that took human beings to the moon.
	Now, here in the UK, we have a man who you might have come across.
	He's internationally known, so you might have heard of him.
	His name is Patrick Moore.
	Now, Patrick is an astronomer.
	I've known Patrick for years.
	He is a lovely and very, very talented individual.
	But you were doing some of the things that Patrick was doing over here during the Apollo missions.
	You were doing that for America, essentially.
	Actually, that's totally correct.
	I actually met Patrick.
	I followed his career as a young astronomer for, well, I want to say decades before I met him.
	I actually met him at JPL during, I believe, that coverage the week of the Apollo 11 landing.
	He was every bit as proper and as dapper and as British as you could imagine.
	He had a wonderful sense of humor when I remember some of our conversations.
	And he also had this synoptic knowledge about the field.
	He was your equivalent, I believe, of Carl Sagan over here, although a bit older and a more, as we used to say, avuncular.
	He's very much a sage.
	He actually told me recently, Dick, that he'd met Einstein.
	I thought I knew this man's story, but I never knew that he'd met Einstein.
	Well, he's had an incredible career, and he is probably responsible single-handedly for getting more people on both sides of the pond, as they call it, interested in astronomy than any other individual human being, except maybe for Carl.
	So, you know, count your blessings that you have as a friend, Patrick Moore.
	Wonderful man.
	Now, we actually had him on this show a couple of shows back.
	So you were doing over there what he was doing over here.
	The whole business of those Apollo mission programs on television, because I saw them as a little boy and was completely enthralled by them, as I am now.
	The whole idea was to tell us how great this exploration was and this going to the moon, standing there, putting up the flag and all the rest of it and seeing it live on TV.
	Something must have happened to you, though, to make you start asking questions about it.
	Well, you know, hindsight is always 2020, and I look back now from the perspective of what we have learned and what we've had revealed to us and the trail and the data points we've followed.
	And I say to myself, if I only knew a tenth, a hundredth then that I know now, I could have been so much more effective because you're absolutely right.
	We were, even though we were covering, you know, government doing the Apollo program, we tended to believe back then government.
	You know, we didn't question that government would probably mostly tell you the truth.
	There were, you know, bad people, there were people that were on the take, there were people that were cutting corners.
	But by and large, in the 60s, you know, we believed government.
	And as I got older, particularly in following this research, it really came as a shock to me to realize that the one agency that I thought would never, ever have reason to lie to us, i.e.
	NASA, turned out to have been lying through its teeth from its very inception.
	So assuming for a moment that that is all true, what was the moment of revelation for you?
	When did you find that out?
	When the photographs didn't match the story.
	The photographs that we've been looking at, the actual earliest generations of the Apollo data, is so at variance with the reports from the astronauts and the various sanitized versions of these pictures that have been put out in books and coffee table books and textbooks and now on the internet, that it's night and day.
	And it's only been in the last year or so that we have been really able to confirm with these official images that are on NASA websites that are showing these astonishing structures, ancient ruins on the moon,
	that we realize that all of NASA has been lying not only to us but to itself because the number of people that actually were part of this conspiracy, and I will use forthrightly the C word, are really a tiny handful out of the tens of thousands that have worked for NASA and the 400,000 that were the total complement of contractors and NASA that put man on the moon.
	So in other words, most of those people are doing their duty in the full belief and the full knowledge that what they're doing is they're helping to explore space and making the world a better place by increasing our knowledge.
	But meanwhile, ticking away underneath all that is another agenda.
	They have been manipulated too.
	And that's what Dark Mission really, I mean, when we call it Dark Mission, the secret history of NASA, Dark Mission, the Secret History, is a secret history that even the NASA employees don't know about because it's been very deftly managed.
	You know, we have identified three groups that from the inception, from the formation of NASA in July of 19, under the behest of President Van Eisenhower, basically controlled or vied for control of this agency purposes and goals that were at very large variance with all their public Rhetoric.
	And the book is the expose of that rhetoric, those goals, and what they have really found.
	Well, look, Dick, I studied politics in the UK.
	That's what my degree is in for my sins.
	And most questions that we asked in my politics classes, the answer to them was the military-industrial complex.
	Who is to blame for what's happened?
	It's the military-industrial complex.
	Are those the people who were in charge of NASA then?
	Is that what we're saying?
	Well, in essence, yes.
	And I start with the introduction and lay out in the NASA Charter that was, you know, acted upon by Congress in 1958, signed into law by President Eisenhower in July of that year.
	And everyone has the impression that NASA is a civilian space agency.
	Well, if you actually read the Charter, you know, sections 305 and 205 and several others, you see it said again and again and again that NASA is really an arm of the Department of Defense.
	It is a defense agency subject to all of the national security provisions of the President and the National Security Council.
	Things can be classified, things can be kept secret, things can be kept away from the scientists who actually discover them, and of course the Congress and the public, which means NASA is a lie.
	From its foundation, NASA is a lie, and that's the biggest shock to me in writing this book with Mike.
	But there was always that connection there had to be because the people who were doing the piloting of the spacecraft were people who'd been piloting speed trials in military aircraft.
	So that connection has to be there, doesn't it?
	Well, yeah, in other words, when NASA decided to do the manned space program, the Mercury program back in the 50s, they looked at a lot of potential candidates for astronauts and decided on test pilots, military test pilots.
	Primarily, we were told because they had the most experience and high-performance aircraft risking their lives, you know, hanging out over the end of the board, mixing my metaphors madly, and thereby they had the largest probability of coming back alive.
	I mean, that kind of makes sense, that if you're going to go where no one has gone before, to quote my friend Gene Roddenberry, you know, you're going to have to use guys that are basically used to doing that and who are instinctual in terms of their training and their reactions when they get into situations that likely could probably kill them if they react a fraction of a second later.
	What we found underneath that is that not only were they using military astronauts because they had the experience, but they also followed orders.
	They were subject to what's called the chain of command.
	They could be literally court-martialed if they disobeyed orders.
	And if you have a military guy standing on the moon looking at awesome ruins and you tell him in the White House when he comes back, now you can't say anything, he won't because it would be violating orders of his commander-in-chief and he would go to Leavenworth if he violated those orders.
	In 99.999% of cases, but there is always surely human nature being human nature, there's always going to be somebody who will break ranks.
	When the time is right when they get to a certain age, when they feel they have nothing to lose, they will break ranks and come out and tell the truth.
	Why has that not happened?
	Actually, Howard, it has.
	Go on then.
	No one's paying attention.
	Oh, really?
	Well, who are these people then?
	Why haven't I heard about this?
	It's the astronauts.
	You have to read Dark Mission.
	The stories of the astronauts who have actually tried to tell us the truth, not once, not twice, but over and over, and what has happened to them, and how they have been subsequently treated, and how their exposés have been treated, is all dealt with in Dark Mission.
	This is why Mike and I wrote the book, It's Time to Tell the Truth.
	Well, in a way, that fits, because one of my favorite movies, and I bet you love it too, is The Right Stuff.
	I watched that for about the 12th time a few weeks ago.
	I love that movie.
	It is one of my favorite.
	But it's interesting, isn't it?
	In those early days of the space program, where it was also embryonic, NASA, the administration had the power to lean on the men themselves and their families to get the result they desired.
	So if that was happening then, then presumably it also happened in the 70s and is happening now.
	Well, remember, only 12 men went to the moon.
	Everybody else watched.
	And how did they watch?
	They watched through censored television that came through NASA ground stations.
	They watched through censored photographs that came from NASA laboratories and photographic dark rooms.
	They watched through the eyewitness testimony of the astronauts themselves, who, of course, as I just said, were military officers, thereby subject to the chain of command.
	No one independently, Howard, or you and me, or anybody in this audience, has been to the moon.
	We haven't a clue what's there with our own first-person eyewitness testimony.
	But the pictures that we saw from the moon, and I was enthralled and amazed by as a small boy, and the pictures that were broadcast across the states on CBS, on the BBC over here, they were live real time, weren't they?
	So they couldn't have been faked.
	No, they weren't.
	When I was at CBS, one of the main problems we had was in covering, because we were a television network, of course, how do you cover a television event that is basically being projected as radio?
	Now, that may sound strange in the 21st century, but back in 1969, when Apollo 11 took place, there was a huge raging debate inside NASA about including a simple, dumb, primitive black and white television camera on the first mission to the moon.
	And ultimately, the public affairs people who were pressing mightily for it, again, they were not in on the conspiracy, they got their way.
	They got a television camera.
	But they got something so dumb and so primitive, so stupid, that it barely could give us a halfway decent black and white picture.
	And even that, it turns out now in subsequent history, was degraded and degraded and degraded.
	So those ghostly images that we all remember that we see on the history channel or on the military channel from time to time or even on NASA's network are a pale vestige of what that camera was even capable of back in 1969.
	Now you add to that, about a year ago, it came to light from some of the original NASA people who were working at one of the ground stations in Australia at the Honeysuckle Facility.
	It came to light that the original video tapes from that camera, which were broadcast live, those images were broadcast live, picked up one and a half seconds later at Honeysuckle, recorded on two-inch big ampex magnetic tape, and then they had to be put through a translation device to convert that signal to something that could be broadcast on the American networks because very cleverly the two signals were not compatible.
	They had to go through a translator, translate that to Howard filter.
	Those original tapes, and we got some brief snapshots and Polaroids that the engineers and technicians took of the monitor screens in Honeysuckle when the images and signal were coming in.
	And we have them actually on the EnterpriseMission.com website compared side by side.
	And they're also in Dark Mission, the new book.
	Those two sets of images, when you compare them to what was broadcast compared to what came in, are night and day.
	Now here's the capper.
	In January of this year, it was released or revealed or discovered that those original tapes, those original videotapes, not the translated versions that everybody saw all over the world, but the originals coming in from the moon to NASA, somehow in the intervening 30 plus years have been lost.
	There are boxes and boxes and boxes of those big two-inch ampex reels of magnetic tape that no one can find.
	They've looked in the Goddess Space Flight Center.
	They've looked in the National Archives.
	They've tried to find old employees that were there at NASA when these things came in and were cataloged.
	No one can find these tapes, and I think I know why.
	I don't think that it had anything to do with them being lost.
	I think they've been deliberately stolen and classified and deep six.
	Now, what proof do you have of that?
	Because there is, as we say over here, a cock-up theory of history in that some of the most amazing things go wrong on the biggest events.
	So, you know, could you not just believe that this was a mistake and they did really go lost, go missing?
	Because remember, this was the first time human beings had ever landed on the moon.
	No one knew what would be on those tapes.
	No one certainly could imagine that in 2007, let's say, instead of having analog technology to bring out the signal, you would have digital, massive computer power, digital techniques which could reach down, remove the noise, and see what was on the horizon.
	The reason those tapes have vanished, Howard, and I will bet, you know, dollars to Navy beans, as we used to say, is because the computer power today would make visible the ruins on the horizon that Apollo 11 was never supposed to show anybody here on Earth.
	So somebody somewhere realized that and panicked.
	And the tapes disappeared, by the way, in the 1980s, just as computers were becoming democratized, just as the web was being born, just as Microsoft was putting out the first real powerful PCs, just as the Mac people, you know, Apple was doing the same thing.
	It's really amazing when you see the level of this conspiracy and the tentacles and how far it reaches.
	And again, the specifics are documented in Dark Mission.
	You do not have to take my word.
	You simply read the documents, you read the testimony, and you look at the images that are now being posted by leakers, obviously whistleblowers inside NASA, on NASA websites all over the world, which completely now show us what is there and what has been missing from everyone's perception for the last 40 plus years.
	But Richard, what do you think has happened recently?
	Because my first contact with you was when you were the face on Mars, man.
	You were the man who said, there are artifacts on Mars.
	They look like a great big face.
	And here's a picture.
	And then a lot of people who claimed that they were experts said, oh, no, no, no, no, this is just one person's interpretation.
	And if you look at many ordinary objects, they appear to have an organized shape to them.
	And the man is wrong.
	But now you're saying something else has happened here involving the moon and other places for all we know that means that the order of evidence that you're getting is of a much greater caliber than that.
	Well, again, it's a broad conspiracy.
	It went back to the reason NASA was formed as a military agency.
	I mean, in the book, what we document is the geopolitical history that led to the creation of NASA.
	Remember back in the 1950s what was going on.
	We were in a head-to-head competition for world, I won't say domination, but certainly world supremacy in terms of political systems with communism, the Soviet Union, Red China, etc., etc.
	There was this incredible contest for the hearts and minds and souls of the uncommitted, undeclared, so-called third world after World War II, which system they were going to choose to better the economics and the well-being of their various populations.
	And so, you know, we had the Cold War, we had the Berlin Wall, we had, you know, Khrushchev banging his shoe on the desk of the United Nations, claiming, we will bury you, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
	Well, it was in the midst of all this that Apollo was born out of a NASA which had just been formed a couple, three years before.
	In fact, Apollo was literally born on the afternoon of May 25th, 1961, when this young president, President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, went before a joint session of the U.S. House and Senate and declared to the world that he was going to send men to the moon before this decade was out and return them safely to the earth in order to beat the Soviet system, to demonstrate that democracy, that freedom was superior to communism and totalitarianism.
	That is the history we have all been taught, right?
	But how does that get us to a position now where you are discovering and finding and having leaked material that is much clearer and makes a much better case than you were able to make before?
	Because that history turns out to be a lie.
	It turns out to be another set of lies.
	I mean, Howard, I'm getting to this point where I'm beginning to think that everything we've been told at some level is a lie.
	You know, he used to say the history was written by the victors.
	Well, if you're in the hands of people that basically are trying to keep you in the dark about the most astonishing and important discovery in the history of humankind, i.e., that we're not alone, and furthermore, that the folks that built all the stuff we found out there on these images is in fact ourselves, our great, great, great, great ancestors.
	I mean, they say that the way that you keep a population in subjugation is to suppress their real history.
	Someone, I have now discovered over the course of more than 25 years doing this, starting as you said with Mars, but now moving back to what I thought I knew as the history of Apollo, someone has been literally stealing our collective history from every single man and woman and child on this planet for some reason.
	And we lay out the history and some of the possible reasons in Dark Mission.
	So let me go back to the Kennedy-Khrushchev era, because it turns out that even though this young president was telling the nation we were going to go to the moon and spend $20 billion, and back then $20 billion was a lot of money, we were going to do this to beat the Soviets,
	to demonstrate the ability of freedom to outdo communism and totalitarianism, it turns out that behind the scenes, Howard, from the moment that John Kennedy walked into the Oval Office, based on White House documents and memos and State Department memos and even United Nations transcripts that are in Dark Mission, it turns out that that ringing pronouncement that we were going to the moon to beat the Russians was a lie.
	Because privately, behind the scenes, John Kennedy opened secret negotiations with Premier Nikita Khrushchev, Chairman Khrushchev, Chairman of the Russian Soviet Communist Party, Premier of the country.
	From that moment until the day he died, he and the chairman were discussing going to the moon in Apollo in a combined U.S.-Soviet space program.
	And the capper is, from all these letters and all these documents and even the eyewitness testimony of Sergei Khrushchev, who is Premier Khrushchev's surviving son, he's now a resident fellow, I think, here at Brown University in the United States.
	We find that on November 11th or 12th of 1963, after years of discussion and negotiation and conversation, Premier Khrushchev finally agreed to a joint U.S.-Soviet program to explore the moon.
	That throws up a whole lot of questions.
	The number one question is, that assumes that both sides, Kennedy and the Russians, both had the same level of knowledge about what was really going on in space.
	Well, it took Kennedy three years to convince Khrushchev to do it, and I think I figured out why it took that long and what was the deciding factor.
	But here's the interesting, amazing, and I think incredibly troubling thing.
	Ten days after Khrushchev agreed, according to his son, Kennedy was dead.
	Kennedy was killed.
	And are you saying in this book that Kennedy was killed?
	This is what I think you're getting to.
	Kennedy was killed because of this, because of this cooperation with them?
	Unequivocally, yes.
	And I can back that up, because in the subsequent NASA appropriation, remember, NASA was at the behest of not only the White House, but also the House of Representatives.
	All spending bills for money.
	And nothing politically happens, as you know, in the world, Howard, unless you can fund it, pay for it.
	Spending bills for NASA came out of a House committee chaired by a Texas congressman named Albert Thomas.
	Albert Thomas, who is a very interesting and suspicious character in connection with Lyndon Johnson, and the details are in Dark Mission.
	Albert Thomas, who chairman of this key funding committee, inserted in all subsequent appropriations that no cooperation between NASA and the Soviet space program could occur unless Congress approved.
	And of course, Congress did not approve.
	So the idea behind that was to stymie whatever Kennedy had been working on.
	Exactly.
	And less than a year later, Howard, Premier Khrushchev himself was essentially politically killed.
	He was overthrown in a coup, and Brezhnev took over, as you'll remember.
	And Khrushchev spent the rest of his life under house arrest in the Soviet Union until the day he died, which was several years later.
	Now, he's not here.
	We can't ask him, but why would JFK have wanted to do all of this?
	Did he want to bring together the two sides, East and West, and then make a great announcement to the world that actually we're not alone and we were never alone?
	Is that the idea?
	I think based on information, and again, we have documentation from what's called the Brookings Report, which was a report that NASA commissioned as soon as it was formed back in 58, 59.
	The Brookings people basically predicted as part of their outreach, part of their extensive survey in the out years of what NASA would be doing 10, 20, 30, 40 years later, they predicted that NASA might find evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence on the moon, Mars, or Venus, specifically in the form of ruins.
	Well, that was incredibly far-sighted of them.
	It sounds like they had some special knowledge somewhere down the line.
	And that's the one piece of the puzzle we don't yet have.
	We don't have those documents as to what they were using for their playbook.
	How could they have known that?
	Well, if we're looking at ancient ancestors, if we're looking at artifacts built by us in some incredible prehistoric incarnation, then it is likely that refugees from that far distant civilization came to Earth.
	I mean, Earth is the only planet on the solar system where you can live without technology.
	So if you basically had refugees streaming here from some long-lost outpost or long-lost colony or places like the moon or Mars or beyond, and they then devolved, they lost their technology, they lost their history,
	and things became reduced to mere legends, mere myths, mere memories, some of those fragmentary documents, those texts, those ancient sacred texts handed down from priesthood to priesthood to priesthood may in fact still survive.
	In fact, I would almost bet my dollars in Navy beans again on that.
	And it's those documents which were used as part of the build-up to humankind going back to the moon and basically getting access to what it once had owned itself.
	At the risk of sounding really stupid from all these thousands of miles away from where you are.
	Did the Vatican have some knowledge of this?
	Oh, what does the Vatican know?
	When did it know it?
	Well, the Vatican, everyone knows, has acted as an archive magnet for centuries.
	They have literally, for the last 2,000 years, had all kinds of documents brought to Rome and sequestered in those catacombs under Rome.
	Who knows what they preserved from the burning of the Alexandrian Library, among other things.
	So yeah, I think that there is in the so-called mystery schools, the secret societies, the Templars, the Masons, the Rosicrucians, all these groups that historically we know have existed and have preserved what they thought was important critical information, if it all gets funneled down to a small group of individuals, and I'm going to name one group in particular, the Germans, the Nazis.
	We know, not only from the movies, you know, Indiana Jones et al., but we also know from solid historical scholars that Himmler and Hitler and the others in the Third Reich literally sent representatives all over the world to scour every arcade they could find for something, sacred documents.
	They, in particular, sent expeditions to Tibet.
	But don't those stories grow up about old dictators?
	I mean, Saddam Hussein, he was supposed to be doing something.
	He was doing the same thing.
	Why do you think he was doing the same thing?
	Because in those ancient past records, his power.
	Remember the old expression, knowledge is power.
	I was about to say, therein lies the key to power.
	Yeah.
	Anyway, we know that the Third Reich was avidly interested in prehistory, in ancient documents, ancient scrolls, ancient anything.
	And they sent people, you know, agents all over the world.
	That's what Spielberg and Lucas built their film on, which was actual historical fact.
	You know, it wasn't looking for the Ark of the Covenant, although I think that was kind of on the list.
	It was looking for all kinds of ancient stuff that might be useful.
	Well, you know, history really is bifurcated.
	There's a kind of a sanitized version that says that, you know, 20th century is the most sophisticated.
	It's the culmination of unending millions of years of human evolution, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
	Then there's real history, which basically opens the door to the real prospect that we are not the first.
	And when you look at these ancient ruins and you look at what we have found on these photographs, you've got to ask yourself who did build all that stuff.
	If in fact the Nazis, when they were imported from Germany at the end of World War II to the United States in Operation Paperclip, if in fact von Braun and others were heir to some of that secret information, and again we lay out in the book the actual documents and facts that basically credit this,
	then when Kennedy basically was convinced by the Nazis, by von Braun, to go to the moon, why do you think he was being manipulated to do that?
	To go to where the Nazis thought there would be heirs to their ancient, ancient legends, their mythologies, and their possible prehistory.
	Which is an amazing chain linking back to the Nazis, to Kennedy, but ultimately somebody believed that the man had to be stopped and he was.
	Well, we're not the only scholars who are actually on this trail.
	There's a very interesting guy that you should interview named Joseph Farrell, who lives in the Midwest, the United States, has written four or five books.
	He's an Oxford scholar.
	He does an incredible job of research and documentation and footnoting.
	And he has written about a secret Nazi project called the Bell in Czechoslovakia that was one of the black ops projects that the Nazis were funding that was looking at some radical technologies and radical propulsion techniques that in essence would make rocketry obsolete if it in fact worked.
	There is a lot about those years that is not generally known and is only now coming out from various intelligence agencies like the Soviets and like the Polish intelligence agencies declassifying documents from Nazi generals and others who were forced to testify at the end of the war on pain of their lives.
	I mean the Nuremberg trials were not the only trials where Nazis were basically told to talk or we will kill you.
	So we're finally getting an interesting underbelly of those years and what was attempted in this massive confrontation between two other great powers, i.e.
	the Western Free World and the Nazi Third Reich Axis.
	And we're finding that there was a lot of technological development, particularly looking in the realm of spaceflight.
	I mean, remember, Werner von Braun came here with the same technology that was ultimately used to take Apollo to the moon, right?
	Okay.
	He created the Apollo-Saturn vehicles that took the Apollo astronauts to the lunar surface.
	And are you saying that that technology derives from something that is not necessarily earthly?
	It could in part.
	And this is why looking at secret archives, you know, the Germans spanning out across the world and looking at any place that they could find unusual documents and or maybe even bits of technology.
	Look, Werner von Braun had that.
	He took it to America.
	He helped you get your space program.
	But don't forget the Russians were doing the same thing.
	Where did they get theirs from?
	That's an interesting question, and it probably is from the same database.
	We do know there are some specific individuals, and Farrell has documented one in particular, Dr. Kurt Deebus, who was heavily involved in this incredible secret black Nazi project, again, called The Bell, who wound up as the director, Howard, of the Kennedy Space Center.
	So the whole thing, I didn't know we were going down this path, but it is a whole lot of people.
	I mean, either, because you've got to follow truth wherever it leads.
	The whole thing is a chain.
	If we are to believe what you're telling us, it's a chain.
	It is a chain, and if you begin to look at each link, you will see it tracks back to secrecy, secrecy, secrecy.
	And in secret, you know, all kinds of weird things can flourish, not seen by the light of day.
	So I'm going to say, though, a lot of people are going to say to you, this is nonsense.
	Now, you've got a book there, you've got evidence in the book, it's as far as it goes, but you know that there are going to be people coming to you saying, this can't be true.
	Actually, there are a lot of people coming to me saying it is true.
	And all those people who bought the book.
	No, actually people who can't find the book.
	I mean, the book is really scarce to find.
	Some of my friends have tried in Britain to find it, and they can't because it keeps selling out.
	I tell you, I tried to find it in London a few days ago.
	I cannot get the book.
	Now, that is a measure of something.
	Maybe the thing's not being shipped in big enough quantities.
	Perhaps you're selling so much there.
	Any idea in quantity how many you've sold in the States?
	It's tens of thousands so far and rising.
	That's all I know.
	And for a book in the first, what, six, eight weeks, that is amazing.
	Yeah.
	And, you know, it's on the New York Times bestseller list.
	Look, bottom line, the history of recreation notwithstanding, we know certain things for facts.
	We know that at the height of the Cold War, two men that almost killed planet Earth, almost destroyed each and every one of us in the first global thermonuclear war over something called the Cuban Missile Crisis.
	Remember that?
	They came within, you know, what was that phrase that cliché?
	You know, that they came eye to eye and one of them blinked.
	And so we did not destroy ourselves.
	These two men in the subsequent year, apparently, Khrushchev really regained or gained a respect for Kennedy that he had never had before.
	He saw that he was not this pampered rich kid who'd been put into the White House by, you know, his father, Joseph Kennedy, and basically, you know, Joseph Kennedy bought the election.
	So you're saying this is how the dialogue between those two guys who were diametrically opposed, and they were polls apart, that's how it started.
	On everything, you know, the we will bury you thing and all that.
	Somehow, these two men finally saw eye to eye to where 10 days before Kennedy was killed, Khrushchev and Kennedy agreed to jointly go to the moon.
	Now, ask yourself, if we weren't going to beat the Russians, if the Russians weren't going to beat the Americans, why would anybody be racing to the moon?
	Why would we be spending $20 billion to go to a place that had no intrinsic value, that was, you know, pummeled with meteors and had, you know, nothing but rocks and soil and radiation?
	Which brings us to the other big point of the book, and we have to be sort of mindful of the time here, and I want to bring you to this, that America did, without Kennedy, go to the moon.
	The mission was accomplished.
	But I think what you're saying in the book is that the mission that we thought it was over here in England and in the United States is not the mission that actually was being fulfilled.
	No, I think Apollo was, and we go into the etymology of Apollo and what that all means.
	But Apollo was basically a reconnaissance and return artifacts to Earth for back engineering and technological advantage.
	That's what it seems to be.
	And what happened after we succeeded and the Russians did not?
	The Soviet Union suddenly collapsed, right?
	Well, it took a number of years and it was part of a bigger process than all of that, but that did happen.
	Well, historically, that's overnight.
	So you're saying that the Trump card in all of this is that America got whatever was to be got from the moon, mission accomplished, brought it back, back-engineered the technology that was found, and the Soviet Union then collapsed because it lost the race.
	In essence.
	Now, I have videos, I have NASA documentation that demonstrate that that timeline is not as crazy as you might think.
	Have you ever heard or seen two videos called STS-48 or STS-80?
	The STS stands for Space Transportation System, which is a NASA code phrase for the shuttle program.
	And in 19, I'm trying to think now, the mid-1980s, a mission called STS-48, it was the 48th mission of the space shuttle, went into orbit and took television of some extraordinary objects tooling around obviously anti-gravity craft,
	incredibly advanced propulsion, incredibly sophisticated technology, completely could run rings around any rocket-based vehicle one could ever build because we're talking, you know, technology which is 1,000 or 10,000 years ahead of where we are now.
	Well, we've heard a lot of stories about the shuttle astronauts seeing and experiencing all sorts of things.
	I guess the question, the clincher here is those things that they apparently saw, were they theirs or ours?
	In other words, were they extraterrestrial or were they back-engineered from us?
	My bet is they're back-engineered from us.
	And I presented this information at the United Nations.
	I put out a video, a DVD series based on this analysis.
	And others have now joined my analysis and have concurred that the vehicles are extraordinary.
	They're really vehicles.
	They're performing maneuvers that nothing we currently know of could possibly match.
	And if I was a Soviet general and I was basically told that those were ours and that there isn't a possible way that you could hold up against what we have now hands.
	Well, it's game over, isn't it?
	It's game over.
	And when you look at the timeframe, that's exactly what seems to have happened.
	Now, what I find really interesting is that when we held our National Press Club press conference a few weeks ago in Washington on Dark Mission and the revelations and the photographs, four Russian television networks, Howard, count them.
	Four of them showed up.
	And in fact, this coming couple of weeks, I've got the major Russian commercial television network, NTV, coming all the way from Moscow to Enterprise Mission here in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
	But listen, I know all about this.
	The Russians have taken massive interest in what you're saying, and you haven't had the front-page news coverage that I thought you might get in places like the UK.
	The Russians love all of this.
	Is that just down to the fact that they love the, I'm trying to think of a phrase For wacky, but they love anything that's wacky and out of the ordinary.
	I mean, Pravda has almost become like the national inquirer these days.
	So, is this really a big surprise?
	Well, the problem is that it's not just Pravda, it's all the Russian media.
	I was told by the producer of the NTV program, which is sending the crew over in the next few days, that we have been all over Russian television, and we, in fact, are on the front page of Russian newspapers that are squeaky mainstream, not into the woo-woo, not like the National Enquirer over here or some of the tabloids you have there on Fleet Street.
	So, no, there's a very substantive Russian interest, and I believe it goes back to the Kennedy Khrushchev thing, because after the press conference, I had these television cameras from the Russians thrust in my face, and the one thing they wanted to know over and over again was, how could I document that there had been an agreement between the Premier and the President at the beginning of Apollo to basically go there together?
	That was the thing they were solely intrigued with, because, of course, that's history.
	That makes Khrushchev a statesman.
	Do you understand, Howard?
	It means he wasn't this communist thug who'd murdered God knows how many people, but in his later years, for some reason, he saw fit to allie his fortune with this young president and to do what no one at that time imagined we could do, which was to work with our bitterest enemies.
	You know, it makes Reagan's evil empire quote pale by comparison to think back to what was happening during those years.
	And we were going to secretly join up, go publicly together, and bring back for all of mankind whatever was there.
	Both men were sidetracked.
	One was killed, the other was deposed.
	Exactly.
	They were both effectively stopped.
	So the question we didn't answer was who did that?
	We have to say this very clearly.
	Who stopped this happening?
	We don't know, do we?
	If we're right about the origins of the American space program in the Nazi experiments in Germany at the end of World War II, then one might imagine that we're looking at elements of the Reich that are alive and well and flourishing subliminally on the international scene.
	And this is why I find Putin's interest in what we're doing, because you realize that Vladimir Putin has got to be behind all this Russian interest.
	I find that interest so interesting because it is a counterbalance to the right-wing tendencies that we have gone toward in the United States in the last several decades.
	But of course, now you're getting into the realm of supposition and you make a very good case in the book about artifacts and about a previous civilization from here that went there and then faded out and back engineering of technology brought from the moon.
	But now you're getting into other territory where you're saying, well, and Vladimir Putin, he's part of this as well.
	How come we know this?
	Because the Russian media is not totally free.
	Just like the American media are not totally free.
	So how come the American media, this is the other point, how come the U.S. media and our media, which tends to do the things that yours does, how come, as I expected when you came out with this book, how come they have not beat a path to your door?
	How come you are not front page news in the U.S. or the U.K.?
	I think there's a conspiracy to keep this from being brought to the attention of the American people.
	Which brings us to another point.
	Do you believe that there are people who come out with stuff like this and have over the years who get silenced one way or another?
	And if that is the case, how come you haven't been?
	Well, they've certainly, you know, tried.
	I mean, I've had more extraordinary things said about me, scurrilous things, stories made up, lies, you name it, over the years that I've been pursuing this trail than almost anybody that I know.
	The one thing that hasn't happened, of course, is that I'm still here.
	Although I did have a very strange brush with death in 1999 when I had a very mysterious heart attack.
	I was in a motel in Florida doing research on another project.
	Several sets of guys showed up in my hotel room on the other side of the wall, and for several days there was this incredible, I don't know, staring contest, enmity.
	I mean, they literally were looking daggers at me coming and going, sitting out in front, windows open, just blatant hatred.
	My God, do you believe that you encountered what our own royal family once referred to as dark forces, that there are dark forces in this world that we don't come into contact with day to day?
	Well, in this case, the simplest explanation is that these guys were basically trying to intimidate me.
	And when I wasn't intimidated, because I was doing a bunch of television, I was working with city government on an archaeological project there.
	I woke one morning to a terrible pain, and I almost died.
	I had a heart attack.
	In fact, the heart attack was so severe that they were basically giving me a 50-50 chance of survival in the hospital when I got to the hospital.
	Well, I read and heard about this when it happened.
	I have to ask you, how are you now?
	I am terrific.
	I'm glad to hear you.
	I have had the extraordinary benefits of living with Dr. Robin Falkoff.
	She is the individual who saved my life.
	She's an alternative health practitioner.
	She is a homeopath, Chinese medicine.
	I have been on an interesting set of regimes right after the heart attack when they told me that I would never live a normal life again.
	I've never had a twinge in the last eight, nine years.
	I feel terrific.
	I'm living at 6,500 feet, which is far above sea level.
	I've walked all over Washington, D.C. after the press conference a few weeks ago because they had a one-day cab strike, so we had to go and do everything by foot to take cabs.
	I think you're okay.
	I think Robin's done her job.
	She has definitely done her job.
	How did you feel?
	When you were standing up in front of the National Press Club, we have to explain to people in the UK who don't know what this is.
	This is the equivalent of going to somewhere like Westminster in the UK Parliament, one of the rooms there.
	Yeah, pretty much.
	And opening up to the nation.
	Well, what I wanted to do, I wanted to put on record in the hall of record of the American Press Corps the data and the evidentiary trail that we now have.
	I also had a witness with me, Ken Johnston, who is a former NASA employee.
	He was actually head archivist at the Lunar Receiving Laboratory in charge of data and photography that was sent from the moon to all the scientists who were involved in the Apollo program.
	And he told a story of how he was told back at the end of the Apollo program, you know, 40 plus years ago, to destroy all but one set of these Apollo images.
	Not to give them to schools or universities or, you know, spread them around the country to where they could do some good, but to literally, physically destroy them.
	And as a young man, I think he was 28 at the time, something about that order, which came from his NASA superiors, bothered him intensely.
	Well, I know what I'd have done if I was 28 and I was in that situation.
	I'd have thought, well, to hell with this.
	This is bigger than any of us.
	I'm going to keep a copy.
	That's what he did.
	And he then gave them to his alma mater.
	He kept some in his own archive, which I was shown in 1995 when we first met.
	And we were able to show some of these to the national press at the press club on October 30th.
	And it's those images that the Russians are so fascinated by because they're now confirmed.
	What Ken was able to say is now confirmed by what is on the web all over the world on NASA websites.
	But we come back to the point that you are not front-page news in the UK, and sadly, you are not front-page news in the United States.
	So the very constituency that you want to reach, at the moment, apart from those people who are buying the book, you're not reaching.
	Not true.
	Because I have a number 21 bestseller on the New York Times bestseller list.
	I'm on the internet.
	Enterprisemission.com is a worldwide entity.
	Darkmission.net, which we've created around the book, is also worldwide.
	And I've got Eastern bloc countries coming, you know, begging for interviews and photographs and documentation.
	And Howard, it's only a matter of time until the American press has to break down because it's no longer the three big networks back when I worked at CBS, NBC, ABC, and CBS.
	It's everyone who can go to a computer.
	He gets an alternative view of the world every single day.
	And all over the internet, there is a wild discussion going on about what we have proffered, you know, as evidence and what is in Dark Mission.
	Well, that's true.
	News is not a cartel anymore.
	And I can tell you one thing, as somebody who's been a journalist and worked in newsrooms all his professional career, probably what will happen is that this stuff will get out in Moscow.
	It'll be all over the old Soviet Union.
	It'll be in newspapers, on television there.
	And somebody in a newsroom in Washington, D.C. or in London will say, hey, have you seen what they're reporting in Russia?
	And that's how it'll become news in our world.
	You know, back during the 70s, when I briefly was doing some work for the Carter administration, there was a word which said, the quickest way to Washington is through Moscow.
	Well, there you are.
	That's exactly what I said.
	Isn't that true?
	So that's how these things happen.
	Who knows?
	Is it frustrating for you, though, that you're not doing the Larry Kings and all the rest of it?
	Well, actually, Larry King has been talked to.
	I was on Larry King back in 1996, I believe.
	And one of his friends the other day actually stopped him on the street in New York and asked him about me.
	And I was stunned that Larry King remembered me.
	And so my friend said, you know, you really ought to have him on the show again because he's got this new book, et cetera, et cetera.
	And Larry said, well, have his people talk to my people.
	And that's where it is right now.
	Dick, you're going to be on Larry King Live.
	I'm going to see you on CNN.
	I know it.
	It's going to happen.
	I would not bet against it, Howard.
	Well, this is really good.
	Look, we're coming to the end of this now, and I'm really grateful that we've been able to do a whole hour together without, you know, in the past, we've had commercial breaks on one station.
	We had sports reports in the middle of what we were doing.
	Do you remember that?
	We had to go to the, what was it, the U.S. Open Golf, I think it was.
	We were talking about some really crucial conspiracy theory to do with what's happening.
	And the next thing we were crossing to the U.S. Open Golf.
	How you make that transition, I'll never know, but somehow we did.
	So at least we've had the chance to do that.
	The audience that listens to this is primarily in the United Kingdom, but there are people in countries like Australia, South Africa, and your own country who listen.
	What is the message you want to leave them with?
	Buy the book.
	I mean, simply, in a free society, in a democracy, the way people get truth is through books.
	Well, that's true, but you automatically open yourself up to people who will say, interviewers are going to say this to you, and I'm going to say it to you now, that you're all about selling books.
	It's a nice story, but ultimately, it's about selling books.
	Yeah, the only problem with that, Howard, is I have a website that has millions of pages and documents and photographs, and it's all absolutely for free, including some of the best photographs I showed at the National Press Club or on Enterprise, totally for free.
	As far as you are aware, as far as you've been able to find out, what is the most amazing thing that we have brought back from the moon that nobody's been told about?
	Oh, come on, that's a planet question.
	You know exactly what it is.
	On the Apollo 17 imagery, which we have recorded in the book and on the website, there is this absolutely astonishing artifact in the bottom of a 300-foot-wide crater called Shorty Crater there in the Taurus Littro Valley.
	And I swear, Howard, when you look at the photographs and look at the comparisons, it looks like a robot head.
	In fact, it looks eerily like C3PO.
	And we do not know whether the astronauts, Cernan and Schmidt, who were the two astronauts on that mission, brought that object back to Earth.
	But imagine if they did.
	Imagine if it's a real bona fide snippet of extraterrestrial intelligence, an artificial life form.
	I mean, we're talking about the 21st century science producing ultimately roboticized intelligence here.
	You know, Kurzweil and others at MIT, you have your experts there in the UK.
	Inevitably, somebody says someday we will produce artificial intelligence that will be a robot that looks like what we think they found on the moon.
	Imagine if that was brought back 40 years ago and has taken them 40 years to figure out how to communicate with it.
	What could it know?
	What could it have told us?
	What could it have laid out in those last 40 years that now seems to have engendered an entirely new space race to the moon?
	Because here's another point, isn't it?
	In these final minutes, I was astonished to be sitting On my news desk one morning, was it two years ago?
	And I heard George W. Bush announce, we want to go back to the moon.
	And I thought to myself, what's that all about?
	Out of a clear, literally a clear blue sky, he says, we're going back to the moon.
	What is that about?
	Not only that, but he's in the middle of a war on terror.
	So why would he want to, why do you think he wants to do that?
	Well, look, it's not just George Bush and NASA that's going to the moon.
	It's the Chinese that, as we're having this conversation, you know, has a major unmanned spacecraft the size of a bus in lunar orbit.
	So it's to get there before the Chinese do.
	So the Japanese are also there in lunar orbit right now with another bus-sized spacecraft.
	So are we saying that the Chinese, the Japanese, and maybe others know this secret too?
	India is going next year, and India and Russia, Putin announced a few days ago that India and Russia are going to the moon together.
	Now remember where Hitler and Himmler sent their emissaries to India to find out the northern parts of India, the Tibet-Indian border.
	Well, the swastika is a bastardization, isn't it, of a Hindu symbol?
	Exactly.
	Precisely.
	So, yeah, I'm saying that the new space race that you haven't heard much about, that the UK through ESSA is part of, is all going to the moon now.
	Remember that song, Everyone's Going to the Moon?
	They're all rushing to the moon because they have developed the technology to independently go to upset the American hegemony, its sole possession of this knowledge and those artifacts and what was there.
	And suddenly everybody is vying for real power because real power lies in those ancient ruins and those libraries and God knows what else that's waiting for everyone now under and on the lunar surface.
	Well, if this is all to be believed, then this could be a tremendous force for good.
	It could bring the entire planet together, make us all realize that the things we squabble about are not really important because there's much more to life and everything than we will ever know, or perhaps we will come to discover.
	Either that or it's going to make us all come into conflict.
	It's going to make us all go to war.
	What do you think?
	That's the reason that I'm doing these conversations about Dark Mission, because if it's done in secret and men of wisdom like Kennedy and Khrushchev are not at the helm, then it could devolve into the most awful, nightmarish global scenario you ever saw because we're dealing with power, technological and physical power that is unimaginable, that makes nuclear weapons look like candles.
	But if it's done in the open, if it's done in public, if it is done really in the spirit of for all mankind, and that's why everyone has to know that these are the stakes and that's why they have to get the book because the documentation is in dark mission.
	And if this was an edition of the old 60s TV show Mission Impossible, it would say at the end here, to be continued.
	I think we have to do more on this, Dick.
	Okay, here's a chance to tell us about the book again, how to get it, and also your website details.
	Well, it is available in the UK through Amazon.com.
	The web allows you to get anything from anywhere.
	I've seen five, six weeks delivery, though, time on that.
	Oh, it's getting shorter because we're actually, we've got new books in the pipeline.
	Remember, we're into the fourth printing.
	I know.
	And it will be at some point in bookstores in the UK.
	I can't tell you exactly when.
	They're struggling mightily to catch up because they never imagined there'd be this demand.
	It literally is the people have spoken and the people want the truth.
	And in this case, the truth is in this book as much as we could possibly document what that truth is.
	And your website.
	Enterprisemission.com, where you can see some of these amazing images, which again, you go from Enterprise to the NASA websites, which are listed, and you click on there and you download them and you compare them side by side, and you'll see that these ancient glass artifacts that are on the moon are on the official NASA versions.
	We're not making this stuff up, folks.
	Then you also go to www.darkmission.net, which is specifically devoted to the book and to the data and to the content.
	And there's a lively discussion there going on on the blog, which you can participate in.
	And Howard, I want to thank you for this hour because it's nice to talk with an old friend about something so important.
	Absolutely.
	Do you think, I'm not trying to be rude here, is this going to make you rich?
	No.
	Because I wind up spending everything I make on this research.
	I only ask you because I'm at the back end of a sabbatical, a break from work that I've taken, and I could use a loan right now.
	I mean, removal thing back thanks hour.
	Yeah, okay.
	Well, you know, come over and we'll talk about it over TV.
	Absolutely.
	But it's always a pleasure to talk to you, Dick.
	We've known each other for years, and as I've said before, when we've talked in the past, there've always been commercial breaks, news headlines, traffic reports, all the rest of it in the way.
	This time, you've had one hour, as they say in the States, commercial-free.
	I thank you so much.
	And it's been a pleasure.
	We will talk again.
	This is to be continued.
	You've been hearing the thoughts of Richard C. Hoagland, space expert and best-selling author now.
	This has been the Return of the Unexplained.
	I hope you feel it's been worth waiting for these couple of months that I've been away.
	Our website is www.theunexplained.tv.
	We'll have a link to Richard Hoagland's site right there.
	Thank you to Webmaster Graham Mullins for his hard work on this.
	And thank you to you for all of your emails.
	Any thoughts on the show, get in touch through the website.
	Thank you again for listening.

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