The biggest dividing line in politics and in culture is no longer right or left but to do with trust. And after the past few weeks, it’s hard to see how some key figures in the Trump administration can ever be trusted again having chosen scripted gaslighting over honesty at a moment of genuine crisis. Anybody who’d seen the footage of Alex Pretti’s shooting knew it just didn’t stack up. And the same can be said about many of the arguments put forward to, effectively, justify his death. Piers Morgan holds his latest debate on the subject with The Bulwark commentator Tim Miller, former ICE director Jonathan Fahey, Brandon Tatum AKA The Officer Tatum and host of No Lie, Brian Tyler Cohen. Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent and supported by: Melania: Step inside the 20 days before history is made—watch MELANIA, only in theaters January 30; get your tickets now!Oxford Natural: To watch their full stories, scan the QR code on your screen or visit https://oxfordnatural.com/piers/ to get 70% off your first order when you use code PIERS. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Staged Assault Claims00:07:57
Noam must resign or face impeachment.
I saw the video.
It does not look consistent with someone trying to assault another person.
I think this was staged.
Shut up, Brian!
You can't tell me to shut up!
Law enforcement works for us!
They don't get to push down women!
I know the emasculated males are off in arms 10 times!
I gotta shoot my blood!
Those are the masculine men?
No, I'm sorry.
The masculine guy was the guy standing up for the woman, doing what men should do.
Pussies shot him dead.
The biggest dividing line in politics and in culture is no longer right or left.
It's a lot to do with basic trust.
Do you believe this person is honest?
Are they authentic?
Are they telling the truth?
That's why podcasters like Joe Rogan have displaced the corporate media and why politicians like Bernie Sanders are among the most popular in America, whether you agree with their politics or not.
After the past few weeks, it's hard to see how some key figures in the Trump administration can ever be trusted again, having chosen scripted gaslighting over honesty at a moment of genuine crisis.
An individual of police officers with a 90-minute semi-on-minute automatic hand.
The officers attempted to disarm this individual.
Disarmed the individual suspects.
But he violently resisted, fearing for his life and the lives and safety of fellow officers.
An agent fired defensive shots.
Medics were on the scene immediately.
Delivered medical aid to the subject, but the subject was pronounced dead at the scene.
This looks like a situation where an individual arrived at the scene to inflict maximum damage.
Where an individual wanted to do maximum damage and massacre law enforcement.
Well, anybody who'd seen the footage of Alex Pretty's shooting knew it just didn't stack up.
And the same can be said about many of the arguments put forward to effectively justify his death.
This was one of the most popular.
Number one, the Second Amendment is a right.
I'm a Second Amendment absolutist.
You have the right to carry a weapon to defend yourself, not the privilege.
It is a right.
Those rights come with restrictions.
I think you would understand that more than anyone at this table.
One of those restrictions is you have to have your ID and your permit on you.
We don't know.
Current reports are he didn't have either one of those on, at which point he's not carrying legally.
Fine, that's all true.
But we know that he did have a permit for his gun, and the law says he has to show it when requested to do so.
Where in the footage did any of the officers stop to ask him for his paperwork?
And why was Kyle Rittenhouse a hero for not using his common sense?
But Alex Pretty caused his own death by not using his common sense.
The only thing Pretty was brandishing was his iPhone, which has also become an unlikely source of contention.
I want to show you something.
Does that look like a gun?
I think it does a little bit.
It's a phone.
It's black, like most phones.
That's crazy stuff.
Well, crazy stuff is correct.
Many people were justifiably furious with Biden officials and liberal media personalities who repeatedly told them to disbelieve their lying eyes, not least about Biden's own health.
They were also furious about the idea that angry white conservatives were domestic terrorists and the single greatest threat to America.
Most of those people voted for President Trump because they were sick of it.
They didn't give his enforcers a mandate to repeat the exact same playbook.
Well, joining me to discuss all this is Tim Miller, the commentator with The Bullwalk, Jonathan Fahey, he's a former acting ICE director, Brandon Tatum, aka the Officer Tatum, and Brian Tyler Cohen, host of No Lies.
So welcome to all of you.
Tim Miller, it seems to me it's been a very significant 48 hours, actually, for Donald Trump, for his administration, for the wider public, and for this issue of trust and being able to believe what we see with our own eyes.
Because if you listen to what these administration officials were saying in the immediate aftermath of this killing, then this guy, Alex Pretty, was about to launch a massacre of law enforcement officers when we could all see from the various clips that were coming out that that simply wasn't true.
He was defending a woman protester who'd been thrown on the floor.
He was then thrown on the floor himself.
Yes, he had a weapon on him, but at no stage did he brandish that weapon or represent any threat to the eight ICE officers that engulfed him.
And in fact, they took away his gun and then they killed him.
So given that we could all see that, I think what's happened here, which has been really pretty unprecedented and quite fascinating to watch, is that Donald Trump has realized this has crossed a line, a line many people may not have thought Donald Trump was aware of or cared about.
And that line being, if you try and tell people that what they've just seen with their own eyes is not true, they're not going to buy it.
Trust in you is going to erode and your polling numbers are going to get slayed.
And ultimately, it will cost you at the ballot box.
What's your reading of it?
Well, I hope you're right, Piers.
I hope that Donald Trump changes course.
I think we've seen some very minor evidence of that, replacing Greg Bavino with Tom Homan.
You know, for me, I would have preferred that all of the ICE and CBP agents be removed from Minneapolis immediately and then taken off the streets and brought back to DC or to the border where they're supposed to be.
Minneapolis is famously 300 miles from a border.
And then they could reassess what a program would look like where they actually went after the worst of the worst rather than menacing American citizens and menacing people who are here legally.
And I do agree with you that the American people overwhelmingly do not want and do not support a government that murders its own citizens in the street, that unloads a clip and shoots them 10 times, fires six bullets into their dead body on the ground, and then lies about them and smears them after they're dead.
I think that the vast majority of Americans don't want that.
You'll probably be able to find a couple of shills to come on and defend that on this show.
But I think the vast majority of Americans say, no, we do not want murderous mass thugs anonymously killing our fellow Americans.
And so I do think that that is showing up in the polls.
I think you're seeing Donald Trump's numbers erode massively, particularly among Hispanics, but also among young men, the libertarian types, the folks that really believed the Don't Tread on Me flag, the folks that really believed in the First Amendment, which protects free speech, which protects taping people in your community if you want to, as well as the Second Amendment, which protects your ability to carry a weapon.
So the young men that flocked to Trump, I think, thinking that he was going to be a free speech president are now seeing the truth.
And I do think it's hurting him with them as well.
Yeah, obviously, Tatum, welcome back to our census.
The really frustrating thing for Donald Trump must be that a large part of his immigration policy has been extremely successful and well received.
And I'm talking specifically about the basic closure of a southern border.
You know, after years of Biden allowing millions of people to come in illegally, Trump has stopped it.
That's a great win for his administration.
It's something most Americans agree with.
And yet here he is now getting quite negative polling about his immigration policies.
Eroding Trump Support00:11:14
And I think it's all come down to this issue of how the ICE agents are behaving in these rural areas and these back-to-back shootings, deadly shootings of protesters.
Well, it's because of mindless people, like the gentleman that just finished speaking, is the reason why people have this perception that Donald Trump is somehow doing something wrong.
They deported 600,000 people.
They've deported people who have committed murder, rape, all kinds of dangerous and felonious crimes.
Also, they're deployed in all 50 states.
Why is Minnesota the only state that's having issues?
And then to get on TV and say that a guy is observing the First Amendment and Second Amendment while he's at a protest assaulting ICE agents, Border Patrol agents.
He committed an assault, a felonious assault against the ICE agent.
That's how he got into a physical altercation while carrying a firearm with that.
What was he assault?
What was the assault?
When the Border Patrol pushed the 80 lady, he went hands-on.
That is a felony.
You cannot do that.
But Brandon, here's the best thing.
Is that not a felony?
Well, when you say what you wanna do, it's an assault.
Brandon, when you say, hang on, let me finish.
When you say what you witnessed was an assault, when you say what you witnessed was an assault by Alex Pretty on ICE officers, that is not what I witnessed.
Piers, do you, because maybe because you don't live in America, you've never done a law enforcement, you don't understand the law.
I've got a home in America.
You've lived in America on and off for 20 years.
But I'm saying you are not vested in American law enforcement.
When you grab somebody like Predi did with an ICE agent, that is an assault.
Subject to an arrest, they had every right to take him down to the ground.
He had a gun on him knowingly, came with multiple magazines.
But you should agree with that.
I was defamed.
Hang on, hang on.
Hang on.
Let me finish.
A Border Patrol agent.
I will come back.
Brandon, Brandon, carry a gun.
Brandon.
I have spent 20 years.
Fine.
I spent 20 years working and living in America a lot of the year, right?
So I know America very well.
I've covered a lot of these stories over the years, the CNN, for others, for Fox, for others, everyone, right?
So you don't have to slightly patronize me with, you're not from the U.S. I'm not patronizing America.
I have a home.
Hang on, Brandon.
Let me finish.
Let me finish.
I've owned a home in Los Angeles for 16 years, okay?
So I do understand how law enforcement works in America.
I understand what the law is, right?
I understand all of these things.
But I look at what happens.
Immediately you say that if you take a gun to a protest, but that's exactly what I'm saying.
People don't fight while having a fight.
I haven't finished my question.
I haven't finished my question.
For 20 years, I've battled with the NRA and with the conservative right about this issue of guns in America.
And I eventually concluded this is an issue for Americans to resolve amongst yourselves.
I respect that.
It's your country, your culture, your laws, your guns.
However, there is a blazing hypocrisy in this narrative that's been spewed about Alex Pretty that somehow one of the problems here was he was carrying a gun.
He was carrying it under his Second Amendment rights.
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The problem is not carrying a gun.
The problem is getting to a physical altercation with intentionally and premeditated a physical altercation with ICE agents.
I would never do, I carry a gun everywhere I go.
I got my gun on me right now.
I would never confront or get in a physical altercation with any law enforcement with a gun on me.
You learn that in CCW class and as a person with common sense.
Because what happens?
Things get twisted up.
You have the gun get exposed.
They yell gun, gun, gun.
He's reaching for his waistband.
They think he has a gun.
All of that is going to be justification under the law because the perception of the Border Patrol agent that believed that he was armed and dangerous at the time that he fired the shots is going to be justification for anybody on this panel.
Just like, just like we literally see them take his gun off him and then they kill him.
That doesn't mean that the Border Patrol agent who shot him saw the gun being removed, Pierce.
That is the best.
Brandon, Brandon, Brandon, please.
We've listened to this enough.
Well, for starters, man, your whole sin is crazy.
This idea that you started your thing by saying this was justified because the Border Patrol agent came and pushed a woman to the ground.
Why are Border Patrol agents?
Excuse me, sir.
Let me continue.
Why are Border Patrol agents in Minneapolis nowhere near the border pushing American to the ground?
Brandon, Brandon.
I don't understand how law works.
They have jurisdiction to enforce immigration law within the boundaries of the city.
What the hell are you talking about?
Was she an immigrant?
Was she an illegal immigrant?
They pushed American citizens to the ground.
We have rights, Brandon.
She is.
The entire Minneapolis police force.
You shot the state law.
Shut up, Brian.
Brandon, whatever your name is, the entire Minneapolis police force shot zero bullets all year last year.
Zero bullets.
You want problems?
The government works for us.
They don't get to shoot American citizens and shoot sick bullets into our dead bodies.
They don't get to push down women.
They represent us.
We pay them.
They need to use restraint and de-escalate.
Okay.
They are here there to serve and protect us, not to punish women to be grounded, not to shoot guys.
Okay, time out.
Time out, guys.
Citizens executing their rights and they got murdered.
And you're on here to begin with.
Okay, but ghouls.
Okay, hang on.
He's dead.
Time out, please.
Time out, please.
I want to bring in Jonathan Faye because you're a former acting ICE director.
But first, I want to play a clip from Donald Trump about the gun part of this.
That being said, you know, we can't have guns.
We can't walk in with guns.
What about the Second Amendment?
Listen, we can't walk in with guns.
We can't do that.
But it's a very unfortunate incident.
Do you agree with the assessment from some of your own officials that Alex Preddy is a domestic terrorist or an assassin?
Well, I haven't heard that, but certainly he shouldn't have been carrying a gun.
I don't like that he had a gun.
I don't like that he has two fully loaded magazines.
That's a lot of bad stuff.
And despite that, I say that's a very unfortunate.
Now, the thing is, Jonathan V, you know, I've repeatedly heard Donald Trump say he's the biggest Second Amendment guy in America, right?
How does that square with what he's saying there about this protester who was there had a lawful right to have a firearm and the ammunition?
He's saying he shouldn't have taken it.
But that's a repudiation of his constitutional rights, isn't it?
I don't think so at all.
And I don't view it the same way in that, yeah, you have a right to carry a firearm, but it also comes with responsibilities.
I know Tim's rolling his eyes there.
But the thing is, what the issue is here is this person injected himself in the situation.
And I'm not going to come to a conclusion because I don't know what happened, but he injected himself into a law enforcement situation and he was armed and he went there.
He didn't go there to protest, my understanding.
These people weren't holding up signs saying open borders, mass amnesty.
He was injecting himself into a situation to interfere with ICE doing their jobs.
The legal issue, and you don't just come out and say it's murder if someone dies.
The issue is, did this officer have a reasonable belief that his life or the lives or others were in danger of being lost or being seriously injured?
And one thing, hang on a second, Tim.
It's important from the officer's perspective and what's reasonable, and they are in this high-pressure situation.
And the fact that the gun was removed, that's a factor, but it's not the only factor because you don't know in these situations, does he have another gun or something else to make someone safe?
So the question is: Did any of your agents ever fire 10 of these officers?
Did that ever happen when you were acting director?
Did they ever fire 10 bullets into an American citizen?
Tim, if you could matter that a little bit.
Did you ever do that?
Look, I heard you're not going to be able to do it.
Are you performing or can I just?
No, I'm asking.
It's a fair question.
Did any of your agents ever kill American citizens?
Don't speak to everyone.
Are we here to talk about this or is it just emasculated a male?
I agree, Dave.
What is this?
Let's not talk over each other.
So, I think the question Tim is asking is a reasonable person.
I know these emasculated males are up in arms, Tim, but come on.
All right, but you're saying Tom is not.
I will say the personality.
Excuse me, I will say the person.
Please don't talk over each other.
Guys, he just called me an emasculated man to your crowd.
Please don't talk over each other.
Guys, no one can hear you when you talk over each other.
Jonathan, Tim.
Please let me conduct this panel.
Thank you.
The point Tim was making to you, Jonathan, was in all your time as ICE director, acting ICE director, did you ever have an incident like this where an ICE official put 10 bullets, or two of them did, put 10 bullets into an American citizen?
I can tell you, I know a lot about police shootings.
I was a federal prosecutor 17 years.
I've defended police and police suitors.
And the way they are trained, and Brandon will confirm this: you fire until the threat is no longer a threat, and then you re-evaluate.
So the fact that there are 10 bullets, you don't just say, you know, we've heard Joe Biden remember during the you shoot in the leg or whatever.
You don't do that.
And that's not the way they're trained.
So if the issue is the number of bullets, then the question is maybe they should be trained differently, but they are trained to eliminate the threat.
The question is still, I agree, an open question: was this a threat that should have used deadly force?
And that needs to be investigated.
But the number of bullets is really not a dispositive factor.
And I know everyone wants to make a big deal about it, but he was laying on the ground.
Police Shooting Perspectives00:12:13
Hang on, hang on, hang on.
I want to bring in Brian.
He's been waiting very patiently.
Brian, I think I read you.
Did I read this week?
You've just passed, you've just passed five million subscribers to your channel.
Is that right?
I did, yeah.
Congratulations.
Amazing.
He did it through the patience.
Yeah.
No, it's great to have to have you on and congrats on that.
It's a big milestone.
So, Brian, you've been waiting very patiently.
You know, it's been interesting to watch the big rainback.
You've watched Christy Noam basically chucking Stephen Miller under a bus.
You know, Stephen Miller is the guy that actually tweeted about this guy being a potential assassin.
It was him that fired up that narrative that he was a potential assassin, which was clearly completely ridiculous.
Whatever your take on what we've all watched on these video clips, the idea that somehow he was planning to assassinate all those ICE officers is plainly absurd and defensive.
What are we seeing here?
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We're seeing from Stephen Miller, from Greg Bovino, Christy Noam, JD Vance, Donald Trump, the same thing, frankly, that we're seeing on this panel right here, which is this level of gaslighting and kind of narrative setting that, frankly, nobody believes.
I mean, this idea for the former ICE director, my co-panelist over here, that Alex Predi, this VA nurse, who was brandishing a cell phone, was somehow a threat that had, that even after he had six full-grown men, like these grown-ass men on top of him, that he needed to be eliminated, that the threat had to be eliminated by unloading his clip into him.
I mean, you can say this and you can feel justified.
And we'll have Officer Tatum over here back you up because there's nothing that Trump or any of these secret police or the Trump administration can do that will garner any pushback.
But that right there is the perfect testament to why nobody believes what's happening here.
It's because even these ardent right-wingers in this country and certainly the vast, vast, vast majority of independents, I'm talking three-quarters of independents in this country, are listening to this gaslighting and recognizing that it's not just a lie they're being told, but it's utter contempt that's being displayed by these Trump administrations for the American people.
Say again?
Well, I would say, Brian, what did I say that was gaslighting?
This idea that Alex Predty pose some threat where the response is going to be resolved.
And it's not going to be resolved because the reality is DHS is not going to investigate any of this.
DHS isn't going to investigate anything Preddy's going to do.
Just like DHS, just like DHS is not going to investigate Jonathan Ross because DHS doesn't investigate any of this stuff.
So if the excuse is always going to be, if the excuse is always going to be, oh, don't worry, we'll just, we'll get to the bottom of this in some full investigation, then watch a full investigation.
So we just have to listen to the gaslighting being fed to us by Stephen Miller, Donald Trump, JD Vance, and Christine.
And what's the policy?
Can we talk about use of warnings?
Okay, I want to just mention a murderer.
Hang on, hang on.
I want to mention at this stage, look, I want to bring in the incident with Ilya Nomar because it's kind of connected to this.
So Ilian Omar was doing a town hall in Minneapolis.
She was attacking ICE, and then a guy comes out of the audience, sitting down, and sprays her with a strong-smelling liquid from a syringe.
Now, that is a potentially extremely dangerous incident.
No one knows what that could have been.
It turned out to be, we believe, harmless.
He is wrestled away.
But had it not been harmless, had it been acid or something else, then maybe she could have been very seriously hurt or dead.
Now, Brandon, what has concerned me about this is that from Donald Trump, and I think you have intimated this too, there's an immediate position by people on the MAGA right that because you don't like Illian Omar, that she somehow staged this.
It's not real, it didn't happen the way people think it did.
This guy was a plant, and so on.
And again, it comes back to what I sense is a complete eradication of basic humanity.
There ought to be parameters between left and right where we can just agree when something like that happens, we all say this is terrible and shouldn't be happening.
Pierce, there is no jump to conclusion.
I don't care about none of these people.
They don't pay my bills.
I don't have to say anything about Illinois Omar.
I don't really care about her.
But the bottom line, and Donald Trump don't pay my bills either.
But the bottom line is that I'm looking at this impartially.
I don't know what anybody said.
I saw the video and it does not look consistent with someone trying to assault another person, which means I have never in my life seen a person get up, spray something out of syringe at someone's chest.
It happened to be nothing inert, and then she comes after him.
You didn't see her back away from him.
You didn't see her shy away from him.
You didn't see any of the stuff.
But Brandon, you would say.
The guy didn't even respond to that.
Brandon, Brandon, you would say Brandon.
Brandon.
Brandon, Brandon, you would say the complete opposite if that was a Republican comment.
That's not true.
Brandon, is the guy going to jail just for fun?
That's not true.
Is the guy going to jail just for fun?
Is that part of the show?
I just want to hear a little bit more about this theory.
No, no, please, just one second.
Just a question.
I want to hear more about this theory.
I'm giving you the elements of the.
Is he going to jail for show?
He's going to jail.
I'm giving you elements of why this looks strange to me.
So, why do you think he's going to jail for show?
Is he like Antifa?
Is this part of like somebody's the lizard people?
Listen, was there anything in the syringe?
It was inert.
There was nothing poisonous.
There was no pepper spray.
There was nothing in the syringe to say that.
I'm not asking you why you think he's going to jail for him.
He sprays her with the syringe in the chest.
She goes after him.
If you're afraid of somebody spraying you with a chemical agent, you're not going to pursue them.
He resisted not one bit.
He goes to the ground.
She says, Well, you don't believe it, do you, Brian?
You don't believe it?
I don't think that this was.
I think this was a stage.
I don't know if it was true or not.
Can I ask a question?
Can I ask a question?
What if Alex Predty had sprayed a liquid onto this ICE officer?
Would you have Brandon?
Would you have said that there was no murder?
It'd be aggravated assault.
And you would have supported executing him.
No.
And just like you would have supported.
That wouldn't have been justification.
That wouldn't have been justification for the ICE agent to react.
No, you would.
But merely holding a phone.
Merely holding a phone is justification to react.
Who said that it's justified for somebody to spray something?
We're talking about a specific incident where a man had a gun.
They had a reason to believe that he was hungry.
He had a gun in his chest.
He was holding a phone.
He was holding a gun.
I'd like to talk about masculine.
He had a gun on him.
I would not have a gun on him.
I would too.
Did he not have a gun on him?
Have you ever done law enforcement?
Any one of you emasculated men on a thing?
Have you ever done law enforcement?
Brandon, I can feel this one for you.
I'm happy to.
I'm happy to see you.
Why are they emasculating?
Have you ever had to use force?
Can I talk?
Because listen to someone who's not going to be able to do it.
Apparently, we're emasculated because we're not bootlickers for gunning somebody.
Apparently, we're emasculated because we're not in support of six guys jumping on and murdering a nurse.
There's a use of force.
You're a real man, Brandon.
Brandon, you're a real man.
You're a real man.
Hang on.
Hang on, please.
Hang on.
Hang on.
We can't hear you.
When you all talk at once, nobody hears any of you.
Tim.
Yeah.
So I have a couple of things.
On this question of whether I've been an officer, this appeal to authority.
I haven't, but you know who has?
The chief of police of Minneapolis.
No, no, no.
Excuse me, Brandon.
Let me finish talking.
The chief of police of Minneapolis gave a press conference.
Brandon, let him talk.
Well, actually, that's a good point.
We actually don't know the man who shot Preddy because the federal government is hiding it, so we don't know who killed our other citizens yet.
Isn't he?
But we know that the chief of police of Minneapolis gave a press conference after the shooting of Predty where he talked about how the judgment was irresponsible and how his police officers, every single police officer in the entire city of Minneapolis, shot zero bullets last year.
They encountered real criminals.
Excuse me, let me finish.
They encountered real criminals, not soy boy protesters like Alex Predy.
They encountered actual criminals.
They encountered murderers and four scenarios.
Assaulted.
Yeah, they did.
They encountered those people.
They were armed.
They disarmed 1,000.
According to the Chief of Police of Minneapolis, they disarmed 1,000 people last year without firing a single bullet.
These morons fired 10 bullets.
And this whole thing about this definition of masculinity, okay?
It's like really the tough guys are the six masked goons pushing down a woman, pushing down a protester, and then getting scared.
Oh, they saw a gun and I got so scared and I've got to shoot my bullets.
Boom, boom, boom, Ten times.
I'm so scared.
I'm so scared.
I've got to shoot my bullet.
Those are the masculine men?
No, I'm sorry.
The masculine guy was the guy standing up for the woman, doing what men should do, standing up for the woman that got pushed down, and then in exchange for his bravery, a bunch of pussies shot him dead and unloaded six bullets into his dead body while he was laying on the ground.
That's what happened.
Those are the emasculated men.
And I wish we had more men like Alex Predty, but unfortunately, he's dead.
Okay.
Let me never do it.
Hang on.
You never arrested anybody.
You never carry a gun.
You probably don't have a gun on you now.
Quit acting like a bonus.
If you encourage you to go to the bottom of this shoot people, I'm doing it all the time.
I'm concerned about your weapon.
I'm a little concerned about your weapon.
You carry a gun based on your judgment and how big of a whip.
I was a police officer.
I'm a police officer.
Brandon, how many people did you kill?
Brandon.
How many people you killed?
If I may, if I may, if I may, Brandon, you don't have to be packing a gun to be a real man.
I didn't say that.
Most people in my guns.
The wussy said that.
I'm saying that in order for you to judge another person.
I'm not sure if I'm a good person and death decision.
In order for you to judge another man who's making a life and death situation, it would behoove of you or have any wisdom to be in a situation like that.
I've been in a situation where I had to choose whether or not I had to shoot a person or not based on use of force policy and the threat of bodily injury or death.
Did you do it?
You have never done that.
So it's just weird for you to try to judge a person who's in that split-second decision when you don't even carry a gun.
So how about you go on a ride along and do something?
It's pretty easy to judge.
Maybe you have a better perspective.
It's pretty easy to judge, actually.
The guy was laying on the ground.
He was a corpse.
And the guy shot him from a distance.
Boom, six times.
It's pretty easy to judge whether it was a threat.
And you can obviously tell that that guy panicked.
He shit his patience.
Let me bring in Jonathan.
Let me bring in Jonathan.
Jonathan, let me bring in Jonathan.
Double Standards in Deportations00:15:21
Look, there's a lot of movement going on here.
Bavino's been sent packing from Minneapolis.
Christian Noon's been effectively gagged.
A lot of heat on Miller and others for putting them up to the rhetoric.
They all seem to suggest it all come from Stephen Miller.
Trump clearly aware that this is not working politically.
But, you know, ICE remain doing what they're doing in other parts of America.
They're deporting a reasonably large number of people, although interestingly, less actually in the first year than Biden did in his last year, for example.
So there are some interesting parallels here.
It's not apples and oranges because Biden was letting a lot more people in.
But in terms of actual deportations, it's not overly successful so far, but it is attracting, I would argue, an overly negative context now for the administration.
If you were running ICE now, what would you be recommending to Donald Trump about how they should conduct themselves going forward?
Well, I sort of disagree a little bit with your premise in terms of how it's been successful.
I think about 1.9 or over 2 million people have taken the self-deportation option, which is removing, in which the government gives them $1,000 and now they've raised that to $2,600.
And so you put that on top of the $600,000 that have been removed and then nobody else coming in.
It's been enormously successful.
And the way, how do you measure success?
Well, we have the lowest murder rate since 1900 in this country.
Crime rates are down about 20% nationwide.
So our country is objectively safer.
We know that.
We know people aren't coming in in droves anymore.
And so you have to look at the big picture.
We also know things like wages are going up because when you look at illegal immigration, and you know from your country, it's not just something that has no cost to the citizens.
It's enormously costly.
Illegal immigration makes Americans poorer, less healthy, less safe, less educated.
And that's not really even arguable.
It costs $150 billion a year.
And what's interesting just in tax dollars, and not to mention all the other costs, and what's really interesting about this is everyone knows at this point Biden and Mayorkos were bringing people in deliberately because they want them to be voters and they want them to help in the census.
There's really no serious argument against that.
It's very interesting that the Democrats' response to everything is always stop the deportations.
They never say, hey, let's think of a good way to get rid of the illegal aliens.
They'll never say that.
So it really is a tell where they're coming from.
But as far as what I think a good messaging should be going forward is focus on the criminals for the deportations, meaning for the arrest outside of the jail, focus on the sanctuary cities because one of the issues with Minneapolis, it's a sanctuary city where they'd rather turn over a child molester back into the community than turn them over to ICE.
And by the way, Tim Waltz put it, wrote an op-ed lying about this the other day in the Wall Street Journal.
So you have to wonder, is he even acting in good faith on this?
But I think emphasize the criminals, emphasize the benefits from not having illegal aliens in the country.
And also remember, deportations and border security are intertwined because the reason people were coming under Biden was because they knew the second they set foot on American soil, they were all, for all intents and purposes, a citizen of this country.
So you cannot have those policies or people will continue to come in.
These all work together, but deport the criminals, say who you're deporting, why, incentivize self-deportation, and talk about the benefits of not having illegal immigrants.
As you know, in your country, it's a big problem.
I guess, let me bring Brian back in.
I want to play a clip of Jimmy Kimmel last night.
And to the people of Minneapolis, to the Preddy family and the good family, and these people who were looking out for their neighbors, we want you to know that we are with you and you are not alone.
Brian, apart from the fact that Jimmy Kimmel really needs to stop crying, I just wanted to say that as a general blanket observation, that barely a week goes by when he's not blubbing like a baby about something.
I'm not saying he doesn't care.
I'm just saying that it's getting a bit weary for me.
But also, I don't remember him crying when Barack Obama was president.
There's a clip doing the rounds today of Obama talking in really tough language about his own deportation record and why it was so important.
He deported over 3 million people.
No liberal friends of mine gave a damn or knew how many people he was deporting.
He was putting kids in cages, separating them from their families, all the stuff that people chuck at Trump.
But it was never an issue throughout those eight years.
He was the biggest deporter of people in the history of the United States in terms of pro rata per year as a president.
So there's been a massive double standard there.
And I can't help but think that one of the reasons is the liberal skewed media, which it is.
I've worked in it.
You could shoot a harpoon around the old CNN newsroom when I was there and not hit a conservative voter.
That they just didn't care because it was their guy.
And what happens this time, because everyone hates Trump on the left and the media collectively hate Trump.
So they fire everything up.
Then it becomes a huge thing.
Then you have people going out on the streets and protesting because they've been whipped up by the media.
Then you have these altercations with ICE.
Then you have deadly altercations.
And we're in the position we're now in.
You know, I do, I'm not saying they're to blame, but I'm saying that part of what we're seeing here is something that never happened in the Obama years about this kind of issue of deporting illegal immigrants because nobody cared.
And my question for you is, all right, we can have Jimmy Kimmel blubbing on TV about it because he cares so much.
Why didn't he care the same way when Obama was doing this?
And did you care?
And did you speak out about Obama's deportation record?
Or do you accept that Obama pretty much shared Trump's view, which is actually, if you're in the country illegally, then you should probably be deported because there are millions of people trying to become legally immigrants to the United States.
And there are hundreds of millions who've come to the country over the last century who did it the right way.
Look, I can't speak to what my thoughts were during the Obama administration.
I was in college, so I wasn't really paying that much attention to politics.
But I would say in general, look, I am in favor of immigration.
I think it's better for the economy.
I also recognize that immigrants, you know, we've heard so much about crime.
Immigrants commit crime at lower rates than native-born Americans.
So this isn't about stopping crime, because if this was about stopping crime, our law enforcement agencies would focus on the people who are actually committing it, certainly committing it at higher numbers, but they won't because this is not about crime.
That's just some squeamy context that we use to be able to justify this.
They're not always able to find people who are illegally in this country that commit crimes.
When they have a crime committal stat, it's because they've been able to find the person and prosecute the person to some degree.
People that are illegally in this country have no identity.
They commit crimes with no, with complete impunity.
So I don't know what that means.
I don't know what they use this idea that they have illegal identity.
Wait a minute.
Wait a minute.
Do you think illegal and legal immigration are the same?
Look, of course they're not the same.
Of course, the real idea is that both or do you believe in one or the other?
But they all get treated the same.
Well, I don't know what that is.
I don't know what that means.
Just for starters, I know.
If I could just say really quick two things on this point.
Number one, right now they're deporting actually people that came the right way.
They're reporting people that came here as asylees or refugees, and they're sending them back, even though they've been going through the legal process.
Excuse me, can I just finish?
Yeah, they are asylum seekers.
They came across the border illegally.
They showed up to a port of entry and they volunteered.
They've been going to their checkups with ICE, waiting for their court date, and they're deporting those people.
So excuse me, just really quick.
So those aren't illegal immigrants that are being deported.
They're people that have done the right thing.
They're being deported.
Lastly, other than those people.
Can I say one other thing?
I just want to say one other thing before you respond.
When you talk about illegal immigrant crime, I do have one pretty easy step to point to.
So far, this year in Minnesota, illegal immigrants have killed zero people.
The ICE agents have killed two.
So two American citizens have been killed by ICE, zero by illegal immigrants.
So that's not a crime system.
So kick out ICE or bring in illegal immigrants.
Okay.
Well, kick out the murderers, I would say.
I actually want to kick out the murderers.
No, no, no.
Wait, I want to kick out the murderers.
The guy that killed Michael Riley and the layer.
By the way, the guy that killed Alex Pratty, you get the fuck to prison as well.
How about that?
We get rid of the killers.
If he's unjustified in his use of force.
You're manning up there.
Let me ask Brandon.
Let me ask Brandon what Jacob is.
Let me ask Brandon.
Hang on.
If I can say one thing, Minnesota.
Hang on, please.
Guys, let me try and moderate.
I'm not sure if you're a respective criteria, not the hysterics.
Let me moderate the panel.
I gave you a step.
Brandon, Brandon, do you think there's a lot of hypocrisy given that Obama deported 3 million people and was very strong in his rhetoric, as indeed Bill and Hillary Clinton were?
The clips are everywhere, right?
They all basically agree about the problem.
I'm for that, Piers.
This is the question about hypocrisy.
This is about killing American citizens.
I literally think it's fine.
When I went back and listened to what Barack Obama said, what Barack Obama said about not coming to America, you would go to the back of the line.
You didn't do it the right way.
We're going to catch you and we're going to kick you out of our country.
Everybody should be in lockstep with that.
If you came here legally, we love you.
But they are coming here legally.
Liam Ramos.
Liam Ramos, a five-year-old boy.
A five-year-old boy who is wearing trucks.
A five-year-old boy who is putting a Spider-Man back.
You're not even talking about Obama Obama saying that you're not going to be able to do that.
His father was here through the asylum process.
His father was here legally.
He was going through the process.
So there's always an excuse.
You'll always complain.
He was going through the process.
He was the exact type of original.
Please.
Let him go.
He was the exact.
Liam Ramos' father.
The five-year-old child.
Stop talking for a second.
All right, go.
Shut up.
Five-year-old boy.
Right, a five-year-old boy was in the middle of the morning.
Let Brian finish.
Brian, Brian, Brian, make your point about the five-year-old boy.
Then, Brandon, you respond.
Liam Ramos, a five-year-old boy wearing a bunny hat and a Spider-Man backpack, used his bait to get his father to come outside.
He was here legally going through the legal process.
The exact thing that Brandon, you're claiming you wanted to see, and yet he's now in the process of deportation.
So the goalpost will always move.
You'll claim that this is all about wanting people to go through the proper process, but then you've got people who are going through the proper process, and yet ICE still creates deportation porn out of their processes and tries to get them out of the country anyway.
Okay, Brandon?
Okay, I want people to be very clear about this.
You could come through the country without going through a port of entry.
You're illegally in his country.
You could come through a port of entry and your asylum claim gets denied, and you are also illegal in this country.
So, two things could be true at the same time.
They did not use a five-year-old to lure this guy, they already had an arrest warrant for him.
He got arrested.
He fled from them, leaving his child behind.
They had to take the child into some type of custody for his safety.
The family refused to take the kid into the house.
They refused to take the kid back from the facility.
So, ICE had no choice but to have this kid in a safe environment because his dad did not care enough about him to take care of him.
You guys are using a five-year-old for your immigration porn.
It is not true that they lured that man.
Listen, why can't we all on this panel say legal immigration is good?
If you come here illegally, you have broken the law and you have to be deported.
Why are we against deportation of illegal immigrants?
The two people in the middle are making a reality.
I know, man.
What do you think?
I'm going to get in here real quick.
You don't let me talk, but I'm for it.
I'm for it.
Deport.
Starting with the people.
Why are you at the worst that people are here legally for Minnesota to cooperate with ICE?
Because ICE isn't going after illegal immigrants.
How hard is it?
I agree.
Could I finish?
They are trying to leave the illegals in and deport the legal ones.
Well, why not have Minnesota give up the illegal immigrants that are in their jails?
Why aren't you doing that?
Or maybe you are in favor of that.
I don't know.
They're doing that.
The Minnesota Department of Crime.
They are not working at that.
That is a sleight of hand.
That is factually untrue.
You can spazz out or do whatever you do, but that's not true.
The jails are not turning people over, and that's a vast majority of people arrested.
The prison system is, and that's the sleight of hand that Tim Waltz is using there.
But the jails are not, and that's factually true.
And they would even admit it.
Tim Waltz is a good idea.
Here's literally the same.
And you can spazz out and do your little shit.
I'm just trying to do it.
But I think the other issue.
All right, go ahead and reply, Tim.
Look, I am with you.
Criminal aliens should be handed over to federal ICE agents or federal CPV.
I'm with you on that.
Here's his reply.
So if you have a critique, excuse me, if you could, could you let me finish?
And if you have a critique about the way that Hennepin County and Minneapolis is handling that, that is a fair critique.
And that is fine.
And we could talk about that policy and what the right policy is.
I'm also for deporting people that came here illegally.
What ICE is doing in Minneapolis is far beyond that remit.
They are going after people that have asylum claims that have not been adjudicated.
They're going after protesters.
They're going after American citizens.
They've jailed American citizens.
They're going into neighborhoods.
They're bullying people.
They're pushing people and they're murdering people.
So if your issue is, let's deal with Hennepin County prisons and figure out how to work better with them, then that's fine.
You don't need to murder American citizens to achieve that goal.
And so we can agree on that.
I want to say that.
Because you can agree shot dead.
Let me bring in Brandon.
More issues.
Let me bring in Brandon.
Let me bring in Brandon because I want to bring in just an update from Polymarket about Christy Noam.
It's quite interesting.
We're following the prediction markets on this subject of who will be the first to leave Trump's cabinet.
Unjustified ICE Actions00:04:54
You know, almost uniquely, he's a year in and hasn't fired anyone from his cabinet yet.
Polymarket has a one and a half million dollar market open.
A lot of activity as we speak.
Christy Noam is at 39% to be that first member of Trump's cabinet to be fired.
She was just at 13% before the two deaths in Minneapolis.
I mean, Brandon, do you think she's on the way out?
Is she going to be the first casualty of Trump's cabinet?
I don't know.
I think Trump is very loyal to the people that are in his cabinet right now.
That's why he haven't fired anybody so far.
But I do think that she's becoming incredibly unpopular on the Republican side.
Now, I don't necessarily agree or disagree with it.
I don't pay attention to what she's saying.
I don't care unless people are getting arrested and they're doing their job.
But I do believe if she's not doing what she's supposed to be doing, if she's doing things illegitimately and is not working on behalf of the country, get her sorry self out of there.
And I believe that with anybody that's in the cabinet, I don't owe no loyalty to none of y'all.
If you don't do your job, you need to get fired.
And so if there's a fair evaluation of Christy Noam and what she's doing and not doing, and she's not doing what's right for the American people and she's committing a fraudulent behavior, fire her.
I think we all understand it.
Can I give you the Border Patrol response real quick, law enforcement and Border Patrol connection?
Because I worked in law enforcement in Tucson, which is a border state, and we work well with Border Patrol and ICE.
And there's a big difference when we arrest somebody and they are illegally in this country.
Now, local law enforcement do not have jurisdiction to arrest them for their federal crimes.
But we do take them to the jail and we put them on what we call an ICE hold.
Therefore, they cannot leave the jail facility even when they're done serving for their city crime or their state crime.
The ICE agents will come and verify them and take them.
That keeps the community way safer because ICE does not have to go into the community.
When you force ICE to go into the community and then you have idiots harassing them, doxing them, throwing stuff at them, blockading their vehicles, you create an unduly risk.
This is why ICE is patrolled or even Border Patrol and their assistant with ICE around the entire country.
And you don't see people getting shot hardly anywhere else.
You would say 99.9% of the suitcase.
Zero is Minnesota.
What?
Yeah, dude.
You do see people getting harassed in other places, actually.
Minnesota is just the only place they've murdered anyone so far.
But they do.
They've harassed it.
They shaded citizens.
No, no.
They shot.
Give me the murder numbers.
Chicago.
Give me the murder numbers.
Give me the people who have been murdered by ICE.
And then you tell me where they were murdered.
This year.
There have been two people murdered by ICE in Minneapolis so far.
And then one city.
Renee Good and Renee.
And then they shot a guy in Chicago.
No, Renee hit an ICE agent with her car.
She got shot.
This guy came and confronted and physically assaulted and had thousands of people.
I'm sorry.
I can't do any more of this apology of Christianity.
You don't have to do anything.
You can't.
Do whatever you want, man.
If this guy goes to jail for shooting pretty, what you're doing is shameful.
You should be shit.
You don't miss.
You should be mad at me.
I actually think it's pretty.
I'm not mad.
You should repent.
You don't understand.
You should be a lot.
You don't understand.
What Brandon is doing.
I think what Brandon is doing is actually pretty instructive because the reality is that everybody saw the video.
Like 85% of Americans.
It doesn't matter.
You don't understand.
You send them audio.
Brandon.
So when you chill according to what they're going to be judged by.
Control yourself.
Brendan, try to control yourself.
No, how about you listen?
Try to control.
Try.
Just try like two seconds to note.
Give me the law.
Give me the law that he's going to be prostituting.
Brandon, Brandon, two seconds, man.
Give me the law explaining.
This isn't a good testament for how law enforcement officials are able to control themselves.
Two seconds.
The reality is the vast majority of Americans.
The vast majority of Americans like you don't know the law.
Brandon, just shut up for like two seconds.
Where's the law?
The vast majority of Americans saw this video.
We know what we saw with our own eyes.
Even conservatives, even independents know that ICE was doing was completely unjustified.
That was controlling his cell phone and was bombarded by six grown shot him dead.
And the fact that you're standing up here, Brandon, just shut the fuck up for two seconds.
The fact that you could And claim you talking to a nigga, work with me, buddy.
Give me the law.
What are you going to do?
Shoot him in the back of the head.
This whole time.
You're cosplaying as a tough guy while you bootlick.
Six grown-ass men who jumped on a nurse and shot him dead.
This is not the tough position.
You are defending.
Being a bootlicker is not a tough position, my dude.
Being a bootlicker for a bunch of grown-ass men who killed a nurse who was helping a woman is not the tough position that you think.
Flaring Debate Tensions00:00:56
Gentlemen, where does it go beyond?
Can I just say, gentlemen, gentlemen, I had hip surgery a week ago.
Can I just say it flared up at the start of this debate?
It's carried on flaring ever since.
And the only thing I can put it down to is that you lot have shouted at each other now for 45 minutes without drawing breath.
And I owe it to my new hip to call an end to proceedings.
But thank you all very much.
Thank you, Pierce.
Thank you.
Thanks.
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