‘Charlie Kirk Was Holding MAGA Together’ Conservatives WAR Over Nick Fuentes | With Dave Rubin
ExpressVPN: Right now you can get an extra four months of ExpressVPN for free. Just scan the QR code on the screen, or go to https://ExpressVPN.com/PIERS and get four extra months for free. Following his appearance on The Tucker Carlson Show, Nick Fuentes has enjoyed an increased exposure recently, not least from a big New York Times profile claiming: “Fuentes Was Charlie Kirk’s Bitter Enemy. Now He’s Becoming His Successor.” The Tucker interview has caused a divide in opinion on the Right - but Fuentes himself is not really the main issue. It’s a battle over who controls the conservative movement, what it stands for, and ultimately what MAGA will mean after Donald Trump. Ben Shapiro is making the case that MAGA risks being captured by online extremists, just as liberals were captured by the ultra-woke, and that social media has conned them into thinking ordinary people will agree. But the other side argues that Trump’s entire coalition was based on one main principle: America First. Joining Piers Morgan to discuss is bestselling author and host of No Spin News, Bill O’Reilly, Christian commentator and YouTuber Zach Costello, News Nation’s Batya Ungar-Sargon, ‘Provoked’ author Scott Horton and host of The Rubin Report, Dave Rubin. Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent and supported by: Oxford Natural: To watch their full stories, scan the QR code on your screen or visit https://oxfordnatural.com/piers/ to get 70% off your first order when you use code PIERS. Brooklyn Bedding: Enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you! Visit https://Brooklynbedding.com for 30% off & use promo code PIERS! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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Confronting Evil and Millions00:14:54
You can call me a Nazi because if I'm a Nazi, then there's millions of young people that are following a fucking Nazi.
I was going to send Fuentes a copy of Confronting Evil, but I don't know what basement he lives in.
And this guy couldn't stand up to me for two minutes.
I won't put anybody on my program that I think is manipulating the system.
It's interesting, you know, I've not platformed him consciously.
Is there a merit in getting somebody like Fuentes on acknowledging the big reach he has?
They can at least see those parts of his views properly challenged.
I'm slightly wrestling with as to whether it would be a good thing to do.
Tucker is being called the most dangerous anti-Semite in America by people like Ben Shapiro, Dave Rubin, Josh Hammer for speaking out against Zionism.
I honestly don't know who that guy is, but I've never called Tucker Carlson an anti-Semite.
Anyone who has the slightest problem with Zionism is immediately condemned as a Nazi.
You're saying anti-Zionism is the most censored view in America.
And then it can say that.
And then you come out here and defend an actual anti-Semite, Nick Fuentes.
What did I say in defense of Nick Fuentes, lady?
Anti-Semitic streamer Nick Fuentes has enjoyed a lot of exposure recently, not least from a big New York Times profile, which claimed Fuentes was Charlie Kirk's bitter enemy.
Now he's becoming his successor.
Many have debated his recent appearance on the Tucker Carlson show with the usual commentary about interviewing styles and platforming.
But Fuentes himself is not really the main issue here.
Neither are the so-called Groypers who follow him.
He's just a symbol of a far bigger struggle whose outcome will have a far bigger consequence.
It's a battle over who controls the conservative movement, what it stands for, and ultimately what MAGA will mean after Donald Trump.
This is why, even as we speak, debate continues to rage about whether Charlie Kirk was turning against Israel.
And this is why leading figures in the conservative movement are openly attacking one another and not their opponents.
And this is why some are saying that Charlie Kirk was holding MAGA together.
Ben Shapiro is making the case that MAGA risked being captured by online extremists just as liberals were captured by the ultra-woke and that social media has conned them into thinking ordinary people will agree.
Americans are not pro-segregation, pro-rape, anti-woman, pro-child marriage, anti-black, anti-Jew, anti-Indian, anti-Latino, anti-constitution, pro-Hitler nutjobs like Nick Fuentes.
This is our party, and this is our conservative movement.
And I will not stand by while it is handed over to those who betray the most fundamental principles I have spent my entire life defending and advocating.
That is a path to defeat and a path to moral oblivion.
I reject it because if we lose the right, we will lose to the left.
And either way, we'll lose the country.
Well, on the other side of the aisle are those who argue that Trump's entire coalition was based on one main principle, America first.
And in the most part, this is fundamentally incompatible with America's unquestioning support for Israel.
In their view, all of the calls for censorship and condemnation of certain people are generally all traced back to that.
There is what Politico is calling a civil war in the Republican Party.
And it's over, of course, identity, because the only wars we have in this country, the only sanctioned wars we have domestically are about identity, BOM, anti-Semitism.
Of course, that's not really what they're ever about.
These are proxy wars.
These are wars waged on behalf of people who aren't directly participating for reasons that are never openly stated.
And this war is actually about what comes after Donald Trump.
Our foreign policy is not wholly dependent on the whims of Israel.
Of course, we have acting in lots of parts of the world that have nothing to do with Israel, but it is unduly influenced by the concerns of Israel.
And in some cases, the U.S. government has acted, and these are all well known.
The Iraq War, for example, has acted in ways that hurt the United States in order to help Israel.
It has put the aims of a foreign power above its own interests.
Well, Nick Fuentes routinely says outrageously vile things, and he has a platform and an audience of his own.
He's a flashpoint because some people believe there's nothing more conservative than airing ideas in the open, uncensored, and letting people decide.
And some people believe conservatives have a moral duty not to hear them out, but to crush them altogether.
I'll be joined by my panel in a moment.
First, Bill O'Reilly, the best-selling author and host of No Spin News on YouTube.
Bill, welcome back to Uncensored.
Appreciate you having me in, Pierce.
There's a fascinating civil war raging in the conservative movement as one of the grandees of conservatism in America.
What do you feel about it?
Well, I'm not a, I dispute your title.
I'm not an ideologue in any capacity.
I don't even know who Nick Fuentes was until a few months ago, and I don't care what he says because he doesn't know what he's talking about.
So I just wrote a book, as you know, Confronting Evil, and Fuentes goes on social media and says, ah, Hitler wasn't at that.
So I was going to send Fuentes a copy of Confronting Evil, but I don't know what basement he lives in.
But he wouldn't read it anyway because he doesn't really care about history or the Third Reich or anything like that.
This is a big scam, Pierce.
And the scam is, I'm going to go on social media.
I'm going to get famous.
I'll make money off that.
I'll be paid attention to.
Every neurosis I have will be catered to, but it doesn't mean a thing.
There is no civil war in the Republican Party other than whether President Trump's going to be able to get prices down so the Republicans can win the midterms.
That's the war.
Can you get the beef prices down?
Not crazy things that Nick Fuentes or these other loons say on social media.
So I always sit back and I watch this.
I'm a Luddite.
I'm not on social media.
I don't waste my time.
And I watch it with fascination because there are certain people in America, in Great Britain, that have figured out how they can use social media to their advantage.
And they have no scruples to say anything, but it doesn't mean anything to people's lives, in my humble opinion.
I mean, you mentioned Fuentes there.
What's interesting about him, he's gathering a lot more followers.
He's appearing on big online platforms like Tucker Carlson's and so on.
People are now openly debating him.
I want to just play one clip of something he said.
You can call me a Nazi.
You better be careful.
Because if I'm a Nazi, then there's millions of young people that are following a fucking Nazi.
So you better be careful about those words.
You're saying I'm a Nazi, I'm a monster.
There's a million monsters then.
There's a million Nazis out there then, because they love my show and they agree with me way more than they agree with you and they're pissed off and they'll follow me into battle.
So you better be real careful.
You're barking up the wrong tree with that.
Now, what I think is relevant, Bill, is that, I mean, you know, I find him a ridiculous character.
I think he's a deliberate kind of ajan provocateur troll, the kind of guy who at school would, you know, have a pop at everybody from the back of the classroom and had no mates and so on.
However, we live in a different world with the media now, where, you know, the average age of cable news watchers now is over 70, for example.
Young people under 40 don't watch the news.
They don't watch, they don't watch television.
They don't listen.
Obviously, the vinyl music is all digital.
They don't reprint newspapers and so on.
They're moving very quickly to an all-digital existence.
And that is why these online people like Fuentes are getting a lot of momentum with young people.
How damaging could that potentially be?
How damaging is Speaker's Corner in Hyde Park?
You know, I mean, you could drag that guy off the little platform there.
The only damage here is perspective.
So we have in New York City a communist mayor now, Ma'am Donny.
So everybody who voted for Ma'am Donnie, and most of them were younger people, are they all communists?
No, they don't know anything.
And Mr. Fuentes' crew is in the same bubble.
They're ignorant.
They don't know history.
And this guy has tapped into this ignorance in a megalomaniacal way to elevate himself.
But a year from now, he's not even going to be around.
But I will warn him, be careful of your own safety because you're appealing to a fringe nut loon crowd.
And that's on both the left and the right.
And when you put yourself out there like that, oh, so I don't want anything bad to happen to that young man.
But as far as being taken seriously as somebody who has an effect on the United States, he doesn't.
There aren't millions of young fascist pro-Hitlerites running around his country.
I just did a commentary, and I hope you watch it, Piers.
And if you do, I'll come back to discuss it on anti-Semitism.
All right.
Is it a problem in America?
Is anti-Semitism a problem?
It's a problem to the extent that it's the same in Ireland or in Wales or in England.
There are some anti-Semites, but they don't have power, although the Irish are really getting there with Connolly.
Okay.
You got to watch that.
But in America, there was a poll.
It's 70% of the 7.5 million American Jews, 7.5 million out of 340 million Americans, 70% said they don't feel any danger.
Their lives aren't affected by it.
But it is disturbing.
I'm not minimizing it.
And so I go through anti-Semitism in the world and in America, why it exists, how it happened.
And up to the present day, there are people who hate Jews, people who hate blacks, people who hate Irish, all right?
But these are marginalized people largely.
If I felt, Pierce, there was a danger to America by a rise of a hate group, I would be on that story every day.
I won't put Fuentes on my bother.
Go ahead.
No, but that's the interesting part of this, is that Fuentes has millions of people who subscribe to his stuff.
They trend mostly young and to the right.
Yeah, but here's my point.
You're right about anti-Semitism, I believe, but he is a brazen anti-Semite, spewing quite regularly brazen anti-Semitic views to a very large group of young men in particular.
I don't know how long I say that.
I think it's probably.
I really have many millions of people that follow him.
You know, millions of people that follow you.
What does that mean?
I mean, they go out, go and see Kyle.
I mean, come on.
I got two kids in their 20s.
They don't have anything to do with this guy.
They know who he is.
I just don't see it as a social problem.
Now, maybe it will develop into one, but I doubt it.
The problem is exploiting a guy like Fuentes.
Now, there you get into, well, if I put him on the show, I'm going to get higher ratings.
Most American broadcasters will not do that.
They won't.
And it's not that they're so noble.
It's just that the corporate masters go, no, you're not putting that guy on.
Now, I'm an independent.
All right.
I won't put him on because I don't want to insult my audience.
And this guy couldn't stand up to me for two minutes because I know what the Third Reich was.
And again, I go back to confronting evil.
You want to know how evil it was?
You read the book.
Is Fuentes going to read the book?
He's not.
Because it doesn't advance him to know what the truth is.
He's not interested in the truth.
I won't put anybody on my program that I think is a charlatan, that I think is manipulating the system, because that is insulting my audience.
And that's the category in which he fits.
Now, the real question is the people who do give him a platform, what is their responsibility?
And under our system in America, it's the First Amendment.
They all fall back on that.
But I think there has to be some kind of editorial discretion.
And that's what I do.
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Business to Hurt Trump00:07:13
Yeah, it's interesting.
You know, I've not platformed him consciously.
And then Patrick Bed-David asked me on his podcast About this.
And I said, you know, when I watched the interview he did with Tucker Carlson, two hours to air his views, wasn't challenged in any way as aggressively as, for instance, Tucker challenged me when he interviewed me.
And I like Tucker, but there was a real difference in tone or after the way he went after Ted Cruz, for example.
You know, is there a merit in getting somebody like Fuentes on acknowledging the big reach he has and actually taking him on properly, as you just said you would.
You know, it's an interesting line, which I'm slightly wrestling with as to whether it would be a good thing to do, as I've done with Andrew Tate, for example, and really hammer him over his brazen misogyny so that the young men that follow Andrew Tate, of which there are millions, because I get asked about him all the time, that they can at least see those parts of his views properly challenged.
Okay, it's a very good question you're posing, and I'm glad that a person like you is thinking about it.
But I've come to the conclusion that there isn't any good that comes out of it because you're talking to a person who's totally irrational.
And all that person is going to do, like the trans guy you had on, is spout this nonsense, this gibberish.
And I'm in the business of presenting facts and truth to my audience and backing it up with facts.
And I'm not going to deal with some kind of loon who's spitting out gibberish because it's a waste of everybody's time.
There's a record, okay?
This is what happened in the Third Reich.
Hitler's not so bad.
I mean, just that statement alone.
And let me get back to Mandani.
Mandani was embraced by a lot of the mainstream media that leans progressive left in America.
Mangani's big quote is: we have to seize the means of production.
Mandani is no socialist.
That's right out of Karl Marx.
He's a communist.
So rather than debate Mandami, and I would put him on, but he's afraid of me.
He's never going to come up against me.
Okay.
Rather than do that, I just point out what is true.
And then I point out the media that is covering up for him, Mandami, by calling him a socialist, democratic socialist.
It's a bunch of crap.
The guy would seize private property if he could.
Period.
He said it.
Believe him.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Let's talk about Donald Trump for a moment.
He's coming under, I think, two prongs of attack, which I think are genuinely a slight risk for him.
One is the ladies' tranche of leaked emails from the Epstein scandal, which seems to be a kind of political death by a thousand cuts for a lot of people.
I want to ask you about that, but also I want to talk to you about the general state of the economy and an interview he gave with Laura Ingram or Fox.
But first of all, the Epstein scandal.
The Trump administration's gone from saying, sorry, Bill, yeah, gone.
This is another bull.
Look, everybody knows that the Democratic Party and the hate Trumpers want to tie Trump to Epstein.
That's what they know.
And this is the argument that was made that we just can't throw all of the Epstein files or whatever they may be out to the public unvetted.
This is totally unvetted.
So today the White House said, look, what this Democratic congressperson is doing, we've already said.
This is a woman who wrote a book, Virginia Jufree, who's openly said, I don't have anything to do with Donald Trump.
Now, you're not even going to hear that in the reportage on left-wing American television.
You won't hear it.
This is an attempt to smear Trump and all the principles involved.
Michael Wolf, his whole life is dedicated to hurting the president and his family, his whole life.
Nothing has been vetted.
It's all hearsay.
And so I'm as a journalist, I'm looking at this.
This is a story?
This is a story.
Laurie had been denied by this woman she had anything to do with Trump.
On the record, she wrote a book.
And the kicker is that the Justice Department under Biden has four years to kick any of this stuff out.
And they didn't because there's nothing to it.
If there were, the Democrats would have ran with it to destroy Trump against Kamala Harris.
Right?
So this is just...
The American media, like the BBC, isn't in the business of putting anything into perspective.
It's in the business to hurt Trump.
That's their business.
So that's the deal.
Let me just play, Bill, another clip.
This is from an interview he gave to Laura Ingram on Fox, which was just quite interesting.
Let's take a look.
If you want to raise wages for American workers, you can't flood the country with tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of foreign workers.
We also do have to bring in talent when you're not.
No, you don't.
No, you don't.
We don't have talented people in there.
No, no, no, no.
You don't have certain talents, and people have to learn.
You can't take people off an unemployment, like an unemployment line and say, I'm going to put you into a factory where we're going to make missiles, or I'm going to put you in.
How did we ever do it before?
Look.
What did you make of that, Bill?
He doesn't talk precisely enough.
Okay.
What he's saying is there are certain things in the United States that we need that the expertise is better abroad.
So we're going to recruit people from foreign nations to do that.
That's what he's saying.
But he doesn't say it that way.
And you could do this every single day of the year because the president just throws this stuff out.
It's not that he's diminishing the American people or any of that.
His point is, we want to get the best and the brightest into this country because they can do certain things that Americans can't do.
Now, you can agree or disagree with that, but that's the point.
And then they blow it up.
Oh, he thinks we're stupid.
It's so ridiculous.
Man, I'm glad I'm old.
I'm glad I'm going to retire soon.
This stuff is just insane.
Divide Between Politicians and Creators00:15:43
What's going on now?
I can't imagine you retiring, Bill O'Reilly.
I'd have put me in prison.
Anyway, I got to run.
I got to do a whole bunch of stuff.
But look, I just want to talk to the international viewers for a moment.
The social media, you got to be very careful with it.
And with AI coming, and I'm sure that Piers Morgan and Bill O'Reilly will be reporting on AI extensively.
It's so easy to deceive you.
Be very, very careful and skeptical.
Protect yourself and your family.
Thanks for having me on, Piers.
It was a pleasure to see you.
Bill, great to see you.
Thank you very much.
Joining me now, Zach Costello, host of the Zach Costello podcast.
Scott Horton, the author of Provoked, and Patia Ungar Sargon, the weekend anchor and host of Batia on NewsNation.
Well, welcome to all of you.
Batia, what do you make of the right-wing conservative movement in America ripping itself to pieces?
Well, thank you so much for having me, Pierce.
It's great to be here.
I'm a little bit of a skeptic of the idea that the right is ripping itself to pieces.
I think if you look at who has come out sort of in support of Tucker and Fuentes and the uncritical platforming of Fuentes and who has come out against it, there's a real divide between, you know, politicians and then content creators.
So conservatives and people who make their money, you know, creating content for YouTube, for example.
You haven't really seen a lot of people who are major figures on the right in terms of building political coalitions coming out on the side of Fuentes.
And you haven't seen the content creators coming out on the side of saying, look, that interview should have been more aggressive.
So I really think this is a divide about media and a sort of media turf war rather than really dividing the right.
The conservative movement as such seems to me rather united on the side of saying, look, we have to have a red line when it comes to Holocaust deniers, anti-black people who believe in segregation and so forth.
And then the content creators who are like, many of whom, by the way, are sort of, it's very hard to say if they're conservatives or progressives anymore, who are more in favor of this like, no, let's hear from anybody in any, you know, which way.
Anybody who has a big following is welcome at the table.
It's an interesting debate, Zach Costello.
You know, I was just having it with Bill O'Reilly about how you decided whether to platform people like Fuentes, given that he clearly has got an increasingly big following and influence.
It's a bit like Andrew Tate, you know, slightly different and that he spews a lot of misogyny and Fuentes spews a lot of anti-Semitism.
I mean, just some of the things that he said, you know, women want to be raped.
Women shouldn't be in politics.
The 19th Amendment should be repealed.
Jim Crow was better for black people, holding Heil Hitler Fridays and saying he was really cool, comparing the murder of six million Jews and Holocaust to baking cookies and so on.
You know, he's a nasty little troll, clearly anti-Semitic.
I think that's beyond any doubt.
Should that mean he never gets platformed?
And if he is platformed by people, should he be given a much more rigorous examination than perhaps Tucker Carlson gave him?
Well, yeah, I mean, I think Tucker Carlson, he's getting a lot of criticism with regard to how he handled the interview with Nick Fuentes.
I mean, I think the way the free speech mechanism works, though, Tucker Carlson, he hosted him for an interview.
Nick was then allowed to share his views, and people can argue whether Tucker should have pushed back more or not.
But Tucker's position was he was going to, and he said this at the outset of his interview, was to allow Nick to explain his beliefs and how he came to believe them.
Tucker never said it was a debate.
So Tucker's getting a lot of heat for how he conducted the interview.
But what I, you know, when I watched the segment with Bill O'Reilly, and Ben Shapiro got in some trouble for this this past week as well, it's this dismissive, condescending way that you would call what you would describe or how I would describe the way these kind of boomer conservatives think about Nick Fuentes and the things that he believes in.
The reality is, is there is a large portion of the anti-establishment, conservative right that is unhappy with a number of things that the Trump administration has not delivered on.
One of those issues is the Epstein files.
Another issue is the America First movement with regard to support of Israel.
I would disagree with the premise that this is just a media or social media turf war.
We just saw in these last elections last week, conservatives got destroyed, destroyed.
And people are saying and they're dismissing it.
Oh, these are blue states.
It doesn't matter.
It does matter in that in almost every single county.
I live here in Virginia.
This is just one example, but this happened across the board in these elections.
In every single county in this election, voters moved further left by a substantial margin.
There is a segment in America, I'll say it again, an anti-establishment, young conservative group in America that needs to be taken seriously.
And they're talking about the divide in the MAGA coalition.
The divide in the MAGA coalition needs to be taken seriously because these anti-establishment, young conservatives, which got Trump over the hump to victory in the 2024 election, if everybody can remember the popularity of Trump going on, Joe Rogan and Theo Vaughn and all of these other podcasters, this is where the anti-establishment men are.
So to just dismiss them as Bill O'Reilly's doing, as Ben Shapiro did, or just calling this a social media turf war, I think is a huge mistake.
Bill O'Reilly, for example, said, I would never have him on my channel.
I would never platform Nick Fuentes because he couldn't hold a candle to me.
I would destroy him.
It's like, then do it, Bill.
Have him on and do it.
I'll admit, Nick Fuentes has some historically proven bad ideas.
Okay.
But there is an America First portion of what he believes in that many do take seriously, that many do believe in, especially, as I mentioned, within that anti-establishment, young conservative Christian segment that really helped Donald Trump to victory.
So I think this needs to be taken more seriously than a lot of these boomer conservatives are leading us to believe.
Right.
So, Scott Horton, I want to play you a clip.
This is Fuentes talking about Trumpism being done.
This movement is over.
And now the question is, what comes next?
Trumpism is over.
I hate to inform you, this administration is done.
Stick a fork in it.
It's fucking over.
We played this game.
It's deja vu.
I was there for the first term.
And I remember right up until 2020, I was saying, okay, you know, we could still make a difference.
I remember in like spring 2020, I was coping.
Trust me when I tell you, it's over.
We're out of time.
Scott Horton, what do you make of all this?
Because I think it's a mistake to underestimate someone like Fuentes, but also a mistake to overestimate the influence of someone like Fuentes.
But the impact, you can see the ripple effect now on the conservative right, particularly amongst the likes of Ben Shapiro at Loggerheads or Tunker Carlson and so on.
These are big figures on the conservative right with big influences, lots of followers.
What do you make of what's happening here?
How significant could it be?
I've got a lot of things on my mind, Pierce.
First of all, thank you so much for having me back here.
It's great to be with you.
Secondly, I'm so frustrated that I wasn't able to be on with O'Reilly and have that debate or discussion with him about so many things.
He said quite a few things that I thought were really important about inflation and other things, about how fake the New York Times story about Trump and Epstein is this morning and things like that, where he really is right on.
Then there's so much there that's just so frustrating.
And primarily his refusal and no offense, but I think Batia's refusal also to recognize, or maybe this is, she's part of this, what I mean by this, that if you're familiar with the old saying about prohibition of alcohol, that it was an alliance, a conspiracy of interest between the bootleggers and the Baptists, right?
The Baptists wanted people to stop drinking.
The bootleggers wanted the price to go artificially high so they could make a killing, right?
And so they wanted it that way.
It was the same thing here where, and by the way, I should give credit to the great Bob Murphy who talked about this on his podcast this week.
And what's happened here is, especially on the right, but everywhere, all across the political spectrum, anyone who has the slightest problem with Zionism or with Zionist power and influence in the United States is immediately condemned as a Nazi and an anti-Semite.
And I'm saying this up front, quite honestly, I have never watched Nick's show, Nick Fuentes' show from beginning to end.
I've seen a few clips.
I'm not in the job of policing other alternative media people or like denouncing them or whatever, you know.
But I think it's pretty clear that he's essentially the result of what you could have bet on anyway, that if you keep saying that everyone who disagrees with Zionism is a Nazi who hates Jews, you're going to have a young man say, fine, that doesn't hurt me.
And then go ahead and own that and then beat that horse to death, which is what he's done, right?
Is stake that out.
And I saw him saying the other day a clip of him, I think in context, of him saying, you say Hitler, every time anyone says anything about any of these issues.
And then he says, but that word no longer has any power here.
That was a long time ago.
It has nothing to do with what's going on with us and not like that.
So what's happened is Zionism, which has a total kind of stranglehold and lock on the center of American politics, has marginalized anti-Zionism to the fringes where now legitimate anti-Semites can claim to own it.
And no offense, Pierce, I would have done a worse job than you, but you made a big mistake at the beginning of that interview.
You played a clip of Tucker Carlson and then you asked him about Nick Fuentes.
You gave him a big escape hatch so he didn't have to confront what his friend Tucker Carlson, who is avowedly not an anti-Semite, had to say about Israel and its influence in this country.
And who's Bill O'Reilly?
Bill O'Reilly is Ariel Sharon's man in the United States of America 25 years ago, who helped Israel lie America into war because they thought getting rid of Saddam would somehow weaken Iran.
And mostly it was Netanyahu's faction that favored that policy, but Sharon got on board for it too.
And the neoconservatives in America did that, as Tucker said in that interview.
And he knows he was at the Weekly Standard at the time.
They did it for Israel.
And what Bill O'Reilly refuses to confront here then, and what Batia is refusing to confront about the loss of the liberal center too, is that center-right conservatism, center-left liberalism are dying on the hill of Zionism.
The most unjustifiable position that you can even take in this country right now after two years of mass slaughter of upwards of 100,000 people over there, these helpless captives on their Indian reservation over there in the Gaza Strip, being massacred like fish in a barrel for everyone's eyes to see.
And then where you have the certainly on the left and much more and more on the right, you have people turning against Zionism while the political system in the middle says, no, you're just Nick Fuentes Nazis and you just hate Jews and we don't have to listen to you.
And yet, Donald Trump, while literally people are desperate, like literally desperate, standing in line in the rain for food because they can't afford to eat.
Donald Trump spends all his time asking the Israeli president to pardon the prime minister as though he has that power to even do that because he's a Zionist.
And that's why I never support him as much as I hate Donald Trump's enemies on the left and in the Democratic Party.
I can never support him because his death knell, just like center-left liberalism and center-right conservatism, and just like Fuentes was saying in that clip, Trump-ism itself is dead.
Why?
Because he's never Trump.
Trump himself is never Trump.
He's with the Zionists to his own downfall and to his own detriment.
And it's just a travesty.
Enough of this.
Okay, Batia, a lot to unpack there.
You were name-checked by Scott several times.
What's your response?
Well, I just think it's really funny.
You're trying to have it both ways.
Like on the one hand, you're saying anti-Zionism is the most un the most censored view in America.
And then again, the entire Democratic Party is anti-Zionist.
You're saying every person who criticizes Israel is labeled an anti-Zionist.
And then you come out here and defend an actual anti-Semite, Nick Fuentes.
And this is the problem, Pierce, is that this is exactly how it goes.
They want to be able to do that.
I didn't defend it.
What did I say?
What did I say in defense of Nick Fuentes, lady?
You're out here saying that because you're out here saying that because, you know, that every person who is critical of Zionism.
No, but you said that.
He's your strong man.
That's what he is.
You said that any person who is at all critical of Zionism becomes labeled an anti-Semite.
And therefore, Nick Fuentes has a seat at the table who is an adult.
I didn't say that.
You have to keep making up things I didn't say.
I say people listen to him.
I say people listen to him because he's not afraid of being smeared.
The right is not actually turning on Zionism.
It's true that the left is now very anti-Israel.
But at Charlie Kirk's last student action summit, he polled about 5,000 young conservative leaders there and asked them, where do you stand on Israel?
They were all very critical of Israel, but 75% of them still called themselves pro-Israel.
So I think that what's become very unpopular is not Zionism itself, it's foreign aid in general.
The vast majority of young conservatives and genocide, a little bit of genocide, prison rape, and torture and murder.
They say that they 100% want Israel to the Christian holy sites to be under the control of the Jews, not of the Muslims.
Zionism is simply the proposition that there should be a Jewish state and Jews' ancestral homeland.
That view is still the majority view in America.
It's not Zionism.
It's a question of whether people support this war.
Now, of course, this war became, at the end of it, extremely unpopular.
It went on for too long, but that's going to change, I think.
And what's happening here is that you have someone like Tucker Carlson, who I think is sort of making this pretense of being an anti-Zionist or anti-Israel, but then opening the door to someone like Fuentes, who is a white nationalist.
When you have somebody like that onto yourself in the mirror, lately.
And you don't watch that interview.
Question, you don't even watch that interview.
On any of their racist views, you watch the interview.
You can't even open the door to those views and suggesting that they are part of the mainstream.
Pierce, are you?
I mean, I was literally told this was not the way that this was going to go down.
Well, it is because you're a liar.
And so I'm interested in the...
I don't know, as always, there's no real benefit to the case.
Let me be clear.
There is no merit to the viewers when you talk over each other.
So I think, Scott, if you've got something to say back, that's fine.
But let Batia finish her point, then respond.
So I just don't see things that way.
I think that basically by saying you can have someone like Nick Fuentes on a mainstream show and not push back on the things that he has said in the past, whether they were about segregation, about black people, about Jews, about Indians, about his friend, the vice president.
You know, that basically says to people that these views are legitimate views to have.
And I think it's very important for the conservative movement to draw a line and say, no, we understand where our power comes from.
Our power comes from the fact that the MAGA movement represents where the vast majority of Americans are at, somewhere in the center.
And part of that means that we don't become the thing that the left accused us of being, which is Nazis.
You know, literally the left falsely accused the right of being white nationalists when what they were were American nationalists.
They accused them of being racist when really what they were were supportive of America first.
But now when you open the door to someone like Fuentes and you mainstream him, what you are effectively saying is we are what they accused us are.
And nothing could be more important than for what the leaders of the party are doing, which is saying absolutely not on our watch.
Lies, Russia, and Internet Freedom00:15:10
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Scott, your response to that.
Well, yeah, at the end there, you sound just like me saying, yeah, they use these false accusations of anti-Semitism against people all the time to marginalize them.
Oh, but not when it's critics of Israel.
They don't get that unfair treatment, just on other things.
I mean, give me a break.
And of course, I never said anything about Fuentes.
I was analyzing the situation and why it is that people listen to him.
I never said, oh, he's welcome to some table or anything like that.
And she just lies about Tucker Carlson.
Anyone can watch the interview on YouTube.
And what happened was Tucker, and this part is not in the interview, but maybe you should know, Tucker actually tried to cancel Fuentes himself.
He had Candace Owens on and accused him of being a fed and a little kid who lives in his mom's basement and this marginal, unimportant person and probably a COINTELPRO agent sent to make us all look bad by saying anti-Zionist and pro-Hitlerian things.
But then Tucker lost that contest because he didn't really have a leg to stand on with that accusation.
And Fuentes does have an army out there and Tucker had to eat Crow.
I think I didn't talk to him about this, but that's apparently the situation was he tried and failed to pull a William F. Buckley or a Mark Levin or a Ben Shapiro and cancel the guy.
So then he Fuentes won that point.
So he had him on the show and then he spent two hours telling him, you say that you're a Christian, but Christianity says things totally opposite of what you believe.
Christianity says you should never hold people collectively accountable or guilty or responsible for anything, which is contrary to everything that you say.
And that's what Tucker told him the whole time.
He pushed back the whole time on that.
Now, if you want to say that he didn't do opposition research and sit there and beat Fuentes over the head with everything that he ever said before, you can criticize him for that if you want, but it's just jargon.
It's just pretend to say, oh, you're platforming, you're mainstreaming.
Fuentes already has an audience as big as Tucker's.
Tucker's not mainstreaming the guy.
Tucker was accepting the reality that this guy is big enough now.
There's nothing anyone can do about it, even though he already tried and failed to.
So he's going to meet him and ask him his story.
And then he spent the whole time pushing back on him, again, on the basis of Christianity.
And if you, again, if you want to say, oh, he didn't bring up every quote about Hitler or black people or whatever, I believe that the reason why is because Tucker was trying to leave him an escape hatch, essentially a little bit of room to back down.
That, you know what?
Hey, maybe I don't stand for all the worst things I ever said when I was younger or whatever.
And give the guy a chance and be fair to him.
After all, when you do Tucker's show, you have to drive all the way out to the middle of nowhere in Maine.
It's like he's not going to just sit there and beat you over the dang head.
And in this case, you know, Charlie Kirk had just been shot and Fuentes had been striking a tone on Dave Smith's show and others saying, well, you know, I didn't mean that.
I'm only saying this and just backing down a little, obviously not apologize or anything, but backing down a little bit.
And I think Tucker was allowing him to do that.
To say that that means that Tucker was in any way endorsing all the things that this guy says or bringing him on and saying, oh, this is our new ally and all of these things is just totally false.
And anyone who watches the interview with in a spirit of fairness would know that that's just not even true.
And it had, it's clearly not Tucker's motive in having him on any more than he's mainstreaming and platforming you, Pierce, when he interviews you.
It's ridiculous.
And then also too, what you have is right after the Tucker Carlson and Nick Fuentes interview, you have the coordinated attack against Tucker by the whole swarm of Zionist influence that then raise their hand and say, and tag Erica Kirk and tag Turning Point USA that says, look at what Tucker Carls is doing.
He can no longer do any Turning Point USA events, which we all know now.
Charlie Kirk still wanted him doing those events.
And I just want to add a couple of things here.
Like Tucker is being criticized and he's being called the most dangerous anti-Semite in America by people like Ben Shapiro, Dave Rubin, Josh Hammer for speaking out against Zionism and the Israeli government's influence on American politics and media.
Nick Fuentes came out after his interview with Tucker and he literally criticized him for not being far enough along.
Nick criticized Tucker for not being there yet when it comes to addressing the real problem, which Fuentes referred to as worldwide Jewry.
So I guess what I don't understand is why the attack on Tucker Carlson for being the most the beat for being the most dangerous anti-Semite in America when like when Nick Fuentes, who, you know, that is anti-Semitic, is actually criticizing him for not being anti-Semitic.
He's not far along enough.
But what it all comes down to, the reality is, is that people like Tucker Carlson and Candace Owens, both of whom Charlie Kirk remain friends with and continue to communicate with, despite Zionists and Turning Point USA board members lying about that.
They are voices for, like I said before, many young anti-establishment Americans.
And this doesn't make those anti-establishment Americans.
It doesn't make us evil, possessed by a demonic spirit or stupid like so many of the Zionists are telling us that we are.
And this is why so many are alarmed and suspicious by the fact that now that Charlie Kirk isn't here, there is this massive push to cancel Tucker from Turning Point USA events.
They were trying it while Charlie was alive.
He never wanted it.
And then after he died and the immediate aftermath of his death, the giantists jumped out, said Charlie was never wavering in support of Israel.
Tucker Carlson is the most dangerous anti-Semitic in the world, and he should never go near Turning Point USA.
And then they also added that Candace Owens has mental illness and that Charlie silently broke up with her over the fact that she chased too many rabbit holes.
Like these are all lies, lies, lies.
And Batia referring to stats of Charlie's audience before he died.
I'm sorry, I think they're irrelevant because I think after Charlie died, many people, many people's eyes were open to the fact that what Charlie referred to as the stereotypical behavior of these pro-Israel donors that he got sick and tired of, the moral blackmail, the threats, the slander.
I think all of us can see that right now.
And it's caused a lot of us to be like, whoa, this is who I was teamed up with on the right.
Maybe I'm going to think twice.
And I think that's just the reality that we're in right now.
And I think it needs to be taken seriously.
Like I said before, it had an impact on the last election.
When you have literally half of the right now divided, anti-establishment and as Scott mentioned, kind of the center right, which is still Zionist, which is still pro-Israel, there's a pretty serious divide right now.
And again, the anti-establishment side of this are what got Donald Trump over the hump in that 2024 election.
So I think it needs to be taken seriously.
Thank you to my panel.
I appreciate you both joining me and to Batia, who's no longer with us.
Thank you all very much.
And finally, someone has taken a fair amount of flack from Tucker Carlson lately, and indeed from some members of our panel just now.
Dave Rubin, host of the Rubin Report.
Dave, great to have you back on our sensor.
It's good to see you, Piers.
Let me do a little house cleaning real quick.
I honestly don't know who that guy is that was just speaking at the end.
I just joined literally a minute and a half ago, but I have never called Tucker Carlson an anti-Semite.
I don't know what's driving Tucker.
I don't know what's in his mind and his heart.
If we want to talk about his ideas or the platforming or the rest of it, I'm happy to do that.
But that was an outright lie, just to get us going here.
Well, he was Zach Costello, host of the Zach Costello podcast.
He's a Christian conservative.
Just on the wider point, Dave, about this kind of civil war raging on the conservative right right now, what do you think is really behind this?
A lot of people think it is the Israel issue.
What do you think?
Well, I think that for anyone that's really paying attention, Donald Trump has been the best president of the last four or five decades.
And I on my show every day find it very easy to write the show because we can talk about win after win after win, whether it's related to the border or deportations or dealing with trade or peace in the Middle East, which everyone used to be for, or doing the best he can when it pertains to Russia-Ukraine or doing stuff that we're doing in Asia right now.
I mean, the laundry list of Trump's wins go on and on.
So what I have found particularly bizarre over the last couple of months with all of this is that anyone that is part of MAGA or part of America first should be thrilled with what Donald Trump is doing and where the movement broadly is at.
And I would also add this, Piers, which is that Donald Trump created a MAGA movement, Make America Great Again.
And what that did was widen the conservative tent.
I am not a hardcore conservative.
I consider myself an old school liberal.
But what Donald Trump did was bring us in.
He brought in pot smoking mushroom eating Joe Rogan.
He brought in Democrat Bobby Kennedy.
He brought in Tulsi Gabbard, who was running as a Democrat only four years ago.
The laundry list of people that had nothing to do with Republicanism or conservatism that Donald Trump widened the tent because we loved America.
And that's what it seems to me these guys are trying to fray.
We can all have differences of opinions on foreign policy, on Israel, or anything else.
But it's when you're embracing people who quite literally say they're Team Hitler, as Batya pointed out, it was the last thing I heard her say, is that for years, for a decade, we've all been called Nazis and Hitler and everything else by people on the left undeservingly.
So it seems like it's the lowest bar possible to just say, hey, you know, if someone says they're on Team Hitler, they're not on our side.
That doesn't seem like a heavy lift to me.
You posted on X yesterday, the mainstream media grew fat and negligent, which then birthed an online media that became narcissistic and retarded.
Can Western civilizations survive that?
We shall see.
Expand on that thesis.
Well, I say that with all due irony to the two of us, my friend.
Look, mainstream, we don't have to waste too much time on what mainstream media has done.
The amount of lies, whether it was Russia, Russia, Russia, or Hunter Biden laptop or COVID, I mean, we can do all that.
They have been utterly negligent in their duty, which was to tell the truth.
And they have failed at that.
I mean, look what's going on with your BBC right now as it pertains to the Donald Trump lawsuit.
So we don't have to focus on that.
What I would say has been really disappointing over the last year or so, and largely as this fight has happened, is that the ascendant online media that you, Piers, and I are both part of right now, we had an opportunity to really bring truth to the masses in a new way.
And I do my damnedest to do that.
I know you do as well.
And by the way, I had you in my studio in my house here a couple of days ago.
You and I agree on some stuff and disagree on some stuff, but we do it respectfully.
And that's why I admire you and I'm happy to be on the show with you today.
But unfortunately, what so many people in the online world have now done is basically put ideology over truth.
Look, I have my beliefs.
You are welcome to question me on absolutely anything, Piers, and I will tell you what I believe.
It does not mean I'm right about everything, but unfortunately, and this is a condition of the freedom of the internet.
It's sort of the human experience.
Any of us can put on a jacket and put on a shirt and look like we're professional and seem like we're telling people the news when we're actually brainwashing them, dragging them down conspiracy theory holes and everything else.
So I feel it's very incumbent on me to tell the truth, but I don't think that many online broadcasters do feel that.
I think they feel it's incumbent on them to get clicks.
And that's something that we just have to slog through.
One of the other big things that's raging, Dave, which is also dividing people on the right, is the Epstein scandal.
It's showing no sign of abating.
If anything, I think it's getting bigger and bigger and will continue to get bigger and bigger as we learn more and more from these files.
And at the sort of heart of the problem for the Trump administration is they kept telling everyone, the moment we're back, we're going to release all these files, total transparency, the Democrats are hiding stuff and so on.
And then two things happened.
Elon Musk said when he fell out with Trump, breaking news, Trump's in the Epstein files.
And then within two weeks, the whole investigation was shut down.
Nothing was released and so on.
And now we're getting all this drip, drip, drip stuff from Congress.
What do you make of the way this has all been playing out?
Yeah, well, I think the biggest mistake along the way was a couple months ago when Attorney General Pam Bondi said she had the files on her desk and they were going to be released.
I don't know if she meant that sort of facetiously or it was just imagery that she was saying, but people literally thought that meant she had a binder with all of the information and that was going to be put out there.
Look, I don't know any more than you do on this.
What do the files actually mean?
Are they the flight logs that we seem to have seen already?
Trump's Visa Dilemma and Midterms00:05:41
And just because someone's on a flight log doesn't mean they did all of the worst things and everything else.
I think there definitely is some issue related to transparency.
This is why as a politician, you got to promise to do the best you can.
But when you just promise the world to people, if you don't give them that, they are going to take it in all sorts of crazy ways.
So I would say to whatever extent there is something that hasn't been released that should be released, I'm absolutely for releasing it.
Where is Donald Trump?
You talk about a lot of wins.
I think he has had a lot of wins.
A lot of people saying that the economy is precarious and he's got to be very careful.
A lot of people on the right saying this.
I've seen Fox beginning to push quite hard about affordability and what's going on now with prices and inflation and so on.
How big a deal do you think that is right now for Donald Trump?
And what should he be doing about it?
I think it's huge.
It's a huge deal, whether it's true that some of this is his fault or he hasn't dealt with it the best way possible or whether it's just purely narrative.
Look, we're a week and a half off of a socialist or Marxist or communist, whatever you want to call him, being elected the once greatest city in the world, New York City, the epicenter of capitalism.
So whether Donald Trump could do more or not, the fact is New York City is now run by someone who is an avowed socialist.
So there's a narrative problem.
Look, Donald Trump's not printing money the way the Biden administration was.
As I said, the tariff situation and some of the trade deals, you still have to see where they land, but I think they've largely evened the playing field as it pertains to trade.
So that is good.
But 100%, I agree, Trump has to figure out a way to get young people in on the housing market.
So that partially is building more houses.
I think he's got to keep hitting Powell at the Fed over the head to lower those interest rates so young people can get in.
You know, they're trying to do this 50-year mortgage thing, which I think you can probably argue either way.
It's nice to get in with lower payments, but then you're kind of 50 years is almost a lifetime.
So that's a little bit tricky.
I would think the other part, and Trump just addressed this, is they're going to have to figure out what to do with some of this H-1B visa and student visa stuff because if we're bringing in all these people, you got to convince Americans that they simply can't do these jobs if you're going to bring in all these other people to do these jobs.
I believe in the American people.
I think Donald Trump believes in the American people.
So if we have to train people or if we're going to take money from China, let's say to open plants here, well, then maybe one of the conditions is you got to help train Americans.
We don't want to just give Chinese or Indians jobs.
And that has nothing to do with racism.
It has to do with doing what's right by America.
So I would say this is a place where Trump, I think, has largely done the right thing.
I can tell you prices of eggs and certainly gas and beef, they are down a bit.
But if it's just an optics issue, you know politics.
It's still an issue.
So he has to do something there.
It's fascinating to watch because he's been so held to skelter since he took power again at the start of the year.
It's been quite a year and I can't think of any president really that comes to mind that's done so much in such a short period of time.
I think probably having learned the lesson from his first time that you basically get a couple of years to the midterms and then you know everything, your ability to do stuff starts to recede quickly into a general election.
So I think he's cognizant of that.
He's really hit the ground running, hasn't he?
And, you know, he could well end up being one of the great transformative presidents in history.
But there are a few things there, which if they go wrong, could really damage his legacy if he's not careful.
That would be my overview about it.
Oh, I totally agree.
I mean, look, he's got it.
We've got a year to the midterms and then post-midterms, you know, he is a lame duck president.
That's simply the truth.
Now, I completely agree with your previous point, which is he's done an incredible amount in this year.
I mean, if you just look at his travel schedule alone and the fact that this guy is constantly giving on-the-fly press conferences and doing all these interviews and giving tours of the White House and everything else, it's incredible what he does at 79 years old.
It truly is.
But he does have a limited window.
I would say if you're a Republican or just someone broadly on the right, you should feel good about things because the bench is pretty deep.
Whether that's JD or that's Marco or that's Hegseth or Tulsi or Bobby, like there's a real bench there.
The Democrats have a much bigger problem in that they're destroying each other right now.
You know, we started here, Piers, by talking about some of the problems on the right, and I'm not diminishing those.
They obviously exist.
But there's a bunch of solid politicians who, if they had to take over tomorrow, could do it.
On the left, I mean, you basically have a Bernie Schumer war, and the people that are younger behind them are way more radical.
Yeah, I completely agree.
I really enjoyed coming to your lovely home and having a great chat with you.
And I urge people to watch that because I think it was a good example of people agreeing to agree about some things and agreeing to disagree about other things, but being respectful.
And at the end of it, walking out, shaking hands and wishing each other well.
If only there was more of that in the world right now.
I think it's so important to be able to properly debate, but not start screaming or falling out with each other.
Piers, that is why I will always do this with you as long as you want.
For every time that we've noodled each other on Twitter or gone back and forth on this show, that's just a small part of what life is all about.
And until we get people out of thinking, out of thinking that political wins are the existential wins that you need in life, then we will keep going into this pit.
Respectful Debate Without Screaming00:00:37
And I simply don't want to do it.
So that's the challenge for the two of us.
And let's see if we can keep doing it.
Absolutely.
Dave Rubin, great to have you back on Censor.
Thank you very much.
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