"NO Desire For Peace!" IDF Whistleblower vs Former Sergeant + Danny Danon
Vice President JD Vance dined with the Qatari Prime Minister in New York this weekend, as the US continues to mend bridges torched by the shock Israeli strike on Doha. The attack on a residential building housing Hamas negotiators, who were discussing a US-backed ceasefire proposal, has both embarrassed President Trump and unsettled the Middle East. Piers Morgan tries to get to the bottom of unfolding events by speaking to Israeli ambassador to the United Nations Danny Danon, IDF whistleblower who is refusing to return to Gaza, Yotam Vilk and former IDF sergeant Benjamin Anthony. Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent and supported by: OneSkin: Get 15% off OneSkin with the code PIERS at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Birch Gold: Visit https://birchgold.com/piers to get your free info kit on gold. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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The Wait Is Almost Over00:14:57
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When it comes to Israel, all of a sudden there is double standards.
You know, we fight terror and we will continue to hunt down those terrorists wherever they are.
They're getting so much satisfaction of the amount of death of the amount of destruction.
The same people that I was protecting are the ones that I feel now I have to protect against what the current Israeli government is trying to push through.
I'm very pleased that the Israel Defense Forces continues to take the fight to these terrorists inside the Gaza Strip.
Benjamin, the other thing you realize what you've said, your numbers are much higher than the Gaza-run health ministry.
Not once did you interrupt your time.
It doesn't matter what I did with my other guests.
I think everyone can work out who the imbecile is.
Everyone can work out who the imbecile is.
All right, cut his mic.
Vice President JD Vance dined with the Qatari Prime Minister in New York this weekend as the US continues to mend bridges torched by the shock Israeli strike on Doha.
Regional leaders are holding an emergency summit to discuss Israel.
The Qatari Emir described Israeli aggression as blatant, treacherous and cowardly.
The King of Jordan condemned Israel as acting without limits.
Israel's attack on a residential building housing Hamas negotiators who were discussing a US-backed ceasefire proposal has both embarrassed President Trump and unsettled the Middle East.
In a moment, I'll talk to an IDF whistleblower who is refusing to return to Gaza.
But we begin with Danny Dannon, the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations.
Welcome back to Uncensored Danny Dannon.
I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me again.
I'm really struggling to understand the logic.
If you genuinely want to get to a peace deal of attacking one of America's leading allies, Qatar, or attacking a Hamas group in Qatar, where the United States has a huge military base there.
They've been at the forefront of trying to forge a peace deal, bringing all the people together.
I'm really struggling to understand how launching an attack in Doha that ends up not killing any of the Hamas leaders, as apparently was the intention, but kills a number of other people, but it causes outrage across the region, upsets the President of the United States, enrages the Emir of Qatar, understandably.
How does any of this advance Israel's cause?
And why does it make anybody in the world imagine that Israel genuinely wants peace?
Because that is the last thing you would do, surely, is attack the negotiators as they're meeting to discuss a peace deal.
Thank you for having me again, Pierce.
So let's make it clear.
The attack was not against Qatar.
The attack was in Doha against the leadership of Hamas, a notorious terrorist organization, which orchestrated the atrocities of October 7th.
So we actually targeted terrorists, period, that are killing people.
And you know, only last week we had another terror attack in Jerusalem.
And the same group in Qatar, they put a statement that they congratulate the success of the attack, which killed another six Israelis.
So we are committed to find those terrorists to bring them into justice or to bring justice to them.
And that's exactly what we did.
And you know, Peirce, it is exactly what the US did when the US attacked Osama bin Laden in Pakistan, by the way, or when the UK attacked ISIS terrorists in Syria or Iraq, or when France is attacking terrorist groups in Mali or Burkina Faso.
But when it comes to Israel, all of a sudden there is double standard.
Why you attack terrorists in a different country and you breach sovereignty of another nation?
But that's how it works.
You know, we fight terror and we will continue to hunt down those terrorists wherever they are.
They cannot hide in Gaza, in Beirut.
We will find them wherever they will be.
Right, but that doesn't really answer my question.
I mean, trying to compare the attack on Osama bin Laden in a compound in Pakistan when he's the leader of al-Qaeda.
As far as I'm aware, he wasn't negotiating any peace process with anybody.
In fact, quite the opposite.
So a clear, legitimate target.
Why would you target people who you are trying to negotiate peace with unless you want to send a message you have no interest in peace?
I don't get it.
Let's be clear about it.
Hamas' leadership that was behind the atrocity of October 7th, the one who funded and planned the attack to kidnap Israelis, rape Israeli women and girls, burn people to death, they will not stay with us, period.
You can argue with me about the timing, about the location, but they will not stay with us, period.
We will get to them.
You know, the same way we got to the people who committed the massacre in the Olympic Games in Munich, we got to them.
It took us a few years.
So the same goes for the leadership of Hamas.
We were able to take care of most of them and we are determined to finish the job, to complete their assignment, to make sure that they will not stay with us after what they did to us.
But you know that the families of the remaining hostages are furious about what happened.
They believe it has imperiled the lives of the remaining hostages.
Many people share that view.
It's enraged other countries in the region, some of whom have been moving to potentially formalize a better relationship with Israel, joining the Abraham Accords.
Some of them are members of the Abraham Accords.
And everyone's scratching their head, trying to work out the logic of attacking people as they were supposedly meeting to discuss a peace proposal.
Because what message are you now sending to the Hamas people who are supposed to be negotiating peace in some format or a ceasefire with Israel?
If everywhere they meet to discuss the proposals, you're going to kill them.
That seems to me a pretty logical assumption by everybody that you have no desire for peace or a ceasefire.
You simply want to lure them into a place where they consider any proposal and then kill them.
I mean, do you accept that that is not the way that you get a peace deal by killing negotiators?
The message is very clear.
We are not going to wait forever.
You know, there is an opportunity for a ceasefire.
By the way, we accepted one and Hamas in the last minute.
The same leadership that you are parading now, the same leadership that you're saying that negotiating peace, they decided to pull back from the agreement that was proposed to them.
So we don't think they really had the intention to move forward.
And even now, they can still decide to accept the proposal that President Trump put forward before we operate into Gaza, before we take more actions.
But we cannot just wait and wait and wait.
For two years, we have hostages in captivity, 48 of them still in captivity of Hamas.
We are not going to sit idly by and wait for Hamas to decide what will be the next step.
We will go after them and we will find them and we will kill them.
So it's up to them to decide now what they want to do next.
And I hope also for Qatar, it's about time that Qatar will decide whether they want to harbor terrorists or not.
You know, I don't understand why they find an asylum in the rich carton in Doha and why they are not hiding in a tunnel in Beirut or in Gaza.
And I think those terrorists should know that they cannot continue with their lavish lifestyle after they committed this atrocity.
Well, let me be clear.
I think Hamas are a brutal terror organization.
I think it is disgraceful that their leadership have lived the life of luxury out of Gaza whilst leaving the people of Gaza to be killed in huge numbers as they've enjoyed splendid luxury elsewhere.
I completely concur with that.
But from a purely political perspective of trying to bring an end to this war, I don't understand what was gained by attacking in Doha, in Qatar, the heart of one of America's allies, America being the principal sponsor of Israel.
Why this has benefited anyone, including Israel, given the rage that has been seen since then by, understandably by Qataris, but also many others in the region, many other leaders in the region.
It didn't achieve its mission.
I mean, do you accept the mission was a failure?
You didn't kill reportedly any Hamas commander.
So do you accept the mission failed?
Well, it's too early to call.
We have to wait to see.
You know, also when we assassinated Muhammad Def, it took a few weeks to confirm.
So we will have to wait.
But you know, the intention, that's what's important, the message that was sent.
Even if we failed this time, we will do it again and again and again until we will hand them down, all of them.
So they cannot hide.
I think they know it by now.
And I think that message is an important one.
And I think actually it will maybe help us to move forward with the ceasefire agreement.
Because, you know, for the people of Gaza, we know Hamas don't care about the people of Gaza.
You agree with me about that.
But maybe they care about their own lives and their own future that they will negotiate a ceasefire deal.
Finally, the UN General Assembly takes place next week with many countries, including the UK, France, Canada, Australia, and Belgium, expected to recognize Palestine as a state.
What is your message for them as everybody meets next week?
Well, we know it's a theater.
We know nothing will change the reality on the ground.
It will be another empty declaration.
And I will give you one example.
You know, in that declaration that they want to adapt, it says that Hamas will not be part of the equation for the future in Gaza.
And I asked my colleagues, where exactly is going to get rid of Hamas?
You know, Hamas will not adapt the UN resolution.
So basically, they want us to do the hard work, the dirty work for the entire world to get rid of Hamas in order to build something new in Gaza and reconstruct Gaza.
So we will have to do that.
We will have the responsibility on our shoulder to make sure Hamas is not there.
So there will be speeches, declarations.
But when you look at what's happening on the ground, it's our forces which creates new reality on the ground.
Danny Dannon, I appreciate you joining me again.
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much, Piers.
Well, I'm joined now by Jotam Wilk.
He's a reserve captain in the IDF and a member of Soldiers for the Hostages, an organization of Israelis who have served in Gaza but are now refusing to return.
Jotam, thank you very much indeed for joining me.
You wrote a very powerful op-ed this week in the New York Times explaining your position.
For those who haven't read it, summarize what you were saying.
So I was speaking of how I feel due to the fact that I went to this war.
I showed up on 7th of October after the horrible mass raid on southern Israel.
I went to fight back Hamas for certain reasons and for the reason that I was told by my own government about the ability to also get back to the Israeli hostages that we let down on 7th of October and also find a way to get a solution, you know, because we were not pacifists.
We know that one of the possibilities and the moral stands of a modern state is to use military force to get some sort of policy through.
We understand they have the right and the moral obligation to defend themselves.
But as the time went by and as we hear more and more of the Israeli government speaking about foreign goals to the Israeli security, and we see we have enough people speaking about the fact that Israel's government is working to sabotage a hostage deal.
And now also you just spoke about bombing the negotiate, the negotiators during a time when I don't know, I didn't hear anyone from the Israeli government speaking to us about that they were going to back off.
Actually, we heard definitely otherwise.
And we had enough evidence that the Israeli government is not pushing through that direction.
They were speaking more and more publicly about foreign agendas about resettling Gaza, about forcedly immigrating Palestinians from Gaza.
They're getting so much satisfaction of the amount of death, out of the amount of destruction that sometimes a lot of it could be justified under certain goals of war, but you hear the way they get so much, I would say, even pleasure from it.
And they are pushing through agendas that I think are foreign to what I believe the state of Israel is, that are foreign to the ability of the state of Israel to stay a legitimate state.
And I do think that at this point, the same morals that I stood up for on 7th of October, the same people that I was protecting are the ones that I feel now I have to protect by speaking as loud as I can against what the current Israeli government is trying to push through.
And yeah, and I think the most Zionist thing that I could think of at this point is to firmly speak and differ between the legitimate actions of the IDF during this war, the right of Israel to defend itself, and what is currently being pushed through by the Israeli government that I see as maybe a stamp on the state of Israel.
And maybe, I don't know, I can understand how we get back from that to the same idea of Israel that I grew up on and I was going out to defend.
Yostam, what reaction have you had to your piece in the New York Times?
Generally, I really think, and also you could see in polls in Israel for the last many months, that the majority of the people in Israel understand this.
Criticizing Israel Amidst War00:04:11
They do not believe anymore in the Israeli government.
They want a hostage deal.
They understand that the Israeli government is working against getting a hostage deal.
They do not have any plan for the day after.
They hear the Attorney General of the IDF and they hear the chief of staff of the IDF.
They understand what this operation in Gaza is now, the one that we are currently maybe even starting, is actually.
And I hear from a lot of people that, again, specifically raising your voice and objecting the IDF during the war is such a complicated act.
I think the Israeli government is working very hard to make this, you know, to make the distinction of, or you or you could only be 100% with everything that we do, or you support Hamas.
You know, I'm not willing to live in that and that, like, I'm not willing to fall into that categorization of the Israeli government.
And, you know, I think that's a pretty common stand.
Like, you could see the majority of the world was standing with Israel after 7th of October.
They funded its wars.
They helped with attacking.
They helped with defense.
And now you see the stand of Israel.
You see, you know, every time you go back to this, maybe, you know, this negotiation, every time that Israel is willing, you know, I don't even understand why we ever leave the negotiation table.
But every time we're willing to come back to it, we come in a weaker position.
We come with a worse deal.
We get with less of an international leverage, less of a military leverage, because the IDF is falling apart under the fact that we are taking the actions that are currently speaking, the way that the government is speaking out loud about what they want to do with Gaza against the stand of, again, the chief of staff, the attorney general of the IDF, probably so many of Israel's officials.
Every time we come back to this table, we come back in a weaker position.
And I do think that we are in such a critical moment when you hear the Israeli government.
We heard today, Biomintaniao speaking about working toward an autocracy.
We heard today Itam El Bengfiel speaking about how he could build houses on the beach of Gaza for the people who's willing to imply his authority.
And I do think we're such a critical position that the amount of lives that are on stake and the fact that the Israeli government, I don't think has the moral legitimacy and not the public legitimacy to make these decisions for the people of Israel when you could see like the majority of the, we don't want this.
Like what we're fighting back, where we're speaking out, you see the amount of people showing up to serve.
You see the public backlash.
You see that all the opposition in Israel from right and from left is understanding that this war is political, that we're not working for a hostage deal, that they don't have any other plan.
I don't know.
I don't see any other explanation.
If you hold the stand that all these evidence are just bullshit and everyone's just like, we all just love Hamas and want the city of Israel to be erased.
So you're a conspiracy theory.
I don't understand how you could hold that position.
That's so...
Yeah, I'm afraid it's the way that I think a lot of people on the hard right in Israel have gone about trying to silence any criticism.
They just immediately, they've done it to me, even though I always defended Israel's right to defend itself.
In the moment I got more critical of what's been happening this year in particular, I was accused of being pro-Hamas, which is obviously ridiculous.
I was accused of being pro-Hamas and I was fighting in Gaza.
Yeah, ridiculous.
Final question, Yotam, before I bring in our other guests to debate with you.
Do you believe that the IDF has been committing war crimes in Gaza?
What News Leaves Out00:05:33
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I think that the well, it depends what you mean because the IDF is, you know, it's a lot of people.
You know, and they make, you know, you make, no one has to tell me how complicated war is.
No one has to tell me how many choices you need to make every hour concerning people's lives, considering your own life, your soldiers' lives.
That's that's a complicated position to hold.
It's even more complicated to hold when you hold it for two years.
And now the Israel government is pushing maybe to an eternity of whatever we see is currently going through.
And these people have to make these decisions.
I do think that the way that when a war becomes just the state of being, it cannot hold the same moral stand that you, you know, we understand that under the state of war, we don't have the same amount of criminalization.
We don't have the same way of thinking about the state of law and accountability.
So the world is the same because you cannot hold a war under these conditions because, again, because you have so many people making these horrible decisions every day, and we are fighting a cruelty organization who uses a civilian facility as a place of war.
It's so complicated.
I do think that not enough has been done by the Israeli legal system and by the attorney general of the IDF to look through what we see as a violation of Israel's obligation under humanitarian law.
And you see soldiers who are publishing things on social media that are definitely against what I was taught and I taught my soldiers as the moral stand of the Israel Defense Force.
And I do think that the Israeli, I would want the Israeli Attorney General and the Attorney General of the IDF to seize this as an issue that we should deal with and we should have a state of law for like for some sort of accountability.
Because I do like without that, you dismantle any sense of moral.
But generally, I again, I like war is complicated, making decisions is complicated.
I think, you know, refusing has such a big, it's just a big decision.
And I'm frightened about whatever's going to happen to my country.
Like, I really, like, I don't sleep at night because of that.
But I do think that every day we let our government push through.
What is currently going to maybe happen is the prices are so much higher.
I like hear the hostages family.
I hear so many people in Israel and so many people around the world who are Zionists, who are always Zionists, who are speaking for Israel.
And they're so... like we were so terrified by the fact that our country was hijacked by these group of people.
I feel like I'll pay the prices that we need to pay.
I think nothing is more important than stopping at this point.
I don't think they have the moral legitimacy or the public legitimacy to make any decisions, except the decision to maybe try and amend part of what happened to us under their role on the 7th of October by getting our brothers back from captive.
Yeah.
Questioning Gaza Death Counts00:14:19
Okay, Yostam, just stay there for a moment.
I'll bring in someone who's been listening to this holder base, a former IDF sergeant and current IDF reservist, Benjamin Anthony.
Anthony, Benjamin, sorry, welcome back to Uncensored.
You've been listening to Yostam, you've both served in the IDF.
What's your response to what you've just been hearing?
Well, I mean, he's just said a lot.
Is there anything specific that you'd like me to respond to?
Please let me know.
Before I do, I just want to make something very, very clear.
Yotam, I'm speaking to you as a veteran of this same war.
I served inside the Gaza Strip during this war.
I did so in a rather unique position, which gave me really something of a bird's eye view about what's going on there.
But I really do want to begin by just saying, regardless of whether you and I agree or disagree, I thank you for your service.
I thank you for your military service.
I thank you for your leadership there, according to the op-ed that I read with great interest.
It's profound disagreement.
But I cannot decry the sacrifice and the service that you've put there.
It's deeply appreciated.
And I want the viewers to know that it's deeply appreciated.
Any criticism that I bring, therefore, will be not against you as a human being, but perhaps against the policies and the comments that you've made.
Okay, well, that's fair enough.
And thank you for saying that.
But what is your criticism then of the op-ed piece that Yostam wrote?
Well, I think my criticism is rather endless, if I may say so.
First of all, I'm deeply disappointed by the fact that he has relied exclusively upon the evidence put forward by the so-called Gaza Health Ministry, who we all know is Hamas, when it comes to identifying the number of people who have been killed inside the Gaza Strip.
There's no reason to take the word of a terror organization.
And I'm very disappointed that he's decided to do so.
How many do you think have been killed?
I think approximately 30,000 people have been killed.
Well, hang on.
Hang on.
Hang on.
Sorry, sorry, Benjamin.
No, no, no.
You asked me to respond.
I'm sorry, but just to respond to yourself.
You can't just do this.
You interrupt all the time.
No, no, I don't.
And you throw out.
I've answered you.
I want to finish responding to your earlier question.
Then you can ask me whatever you want.
No, actually, that's not how this works.
Sorry, no.
If you say something I want to challenge you, I will challenge you.
If you don't want to be challenged on it, that's fine.
You don't have to answer my question.
Not once did you interrupt your term.
It doesn't matter what I did with my other guests.
By the way, I asked you how many have been killed.
You have set the death toll.
You mean the total death toll is 30,000.
Is that what you just said?
No.
If you'd let me finish without interrupting with a question, you might understand my answer in full.
The estimates are that there are approximately 30,000 Hamas fighters who have been killed.
Now, that is a very reasonable number.
By the way, there are more to be killed.
And I'm very pleased that the Israel Defense Forces continues to take the fight to these terrorists inside the Gaza Strip in the careful, principled manner that we do, that I'm sure that your TAM did, that I'm sure that your Tam's peers did, and that I'm confident will continue to do as we ratchet up the pressure against Hamas in Gaza City in the event that the trigger is pulled on that operation.
Sorry, but just to be clear, what is the total number then of civilians who've been killed?
So the estimate currently is that there is something in the realm of one terrorist killed, and in that context, two civilians killed.
So that's a very, very low estimate.
So 60,000 civilians have been killed.
Those would be the estimates, right?
So your death toll, just to be clear.
But let me ask you.
No, no, no.
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
I will now say something.
You won't just broken down what you've just said.
If I may be clear, Piers, my death toll, listen to me.
It's very important.
You don't have to become animated.
My death toll is broken down, terrorists to civilians.
Now, I think in a battlefield, in a combat zone, that's a pretty important caveat to have when throwing out numbers.
Just to be clear, you said that the Hamas that your Tam said or not.
You said that the number that the Gaza Health Ministry, which is Hamas run, that their numbers were wrong.
But unless I'm mistaken, your total numbers are higher than theirs.
You've just said two to one, civilians.
What are you saying about the Gaza Health Ministry, Piers?
I think this is a very simple point.
I don't understand why it's struggling to be understood by you.
What I'm saying about the Gaza Health Ministry, and this is something that's been part of this war since the beginning of the conflict, is that there's absolutely no differentiation between terrorists who have been killed and civilians who have been killed.
It has to be taken into account.
It's not in the op-ed.
You asked me to respond.
So how many civilians have been killed, do you think?
I've answered your question.
What's the number?
I've answered your question.
Give me the number.
No, I've answered you.
I'd like you to give me a number.
It's a very clear ratio.
And one of your great errors is that you continue.
I'll tell you what, don't worry about my interviewing.
You can oversimplify a battlefield.
How many civilians have been killed?
I've answered you about Hamas.
What's the number?
I've then given you the ratio.
You can go away and do the math and the data.
No, no, you can do the math.
I've told you.
No, no, no.
I've told you.
I've answered you.
Tell me.
I've answered you.
Tell me the number.
I've answered you.
Why won't you tell me how many civilians have been killed?
Why won't you take my earlier answer?
Give me the number.
It's approximately two civilians per enemy combatant.
Okay, so let me stop you.
Let me stop you.
So, in other words, 60,000 civilians have been killed.
Is that what you're saying?
Piers, I've said it to you before.
Other people have said this to you.
These are estimates.
Nobody knows with any certainty.
You just said 60,000.
No, no, no, hang on.
Including me, including the Hamas authority, including the USA.
Benjamin, I don't think you realize what you've said.
No, I realize that.
Your numbers are much higher than the Gaza-run health ministry.
Do you not understand what you told me?
No, I understand very, very well.
Two civilians to one terrorist, 30,000 terrorists.
Two times that is 60.
That's 90,000 people have been killed.
That is way higher than the numbers given by the Gaza Health Ministry, which you've tried to say are wrong.
First of all, it's not higher.
These are the numbers that your TAM quoted in an op-ed that is back in August.
You just told me.
Just told me two civilians for every terrorist killed.
You said 30,000 terrorists.
Therefore, your total is over 90,000.
The Gaza Health Ministry isn't that high.
This opinion piece was written in August 2025.
Benjamin, I don't think you understand what you've told me.
You don't want me to challenge you because you don't realize what you've said.
You're welcome to challenge me.
You asked me to refute the op-ed.
Okay, are you now saying 90,000 Palestinians have been killed, including 30,000 Hamas?
Are you saying that?
Are you saying 90,000 have been killed?
Your question has been asked and answered.
Simple question by your maths.
Are you telling me 90,000 people have been killed in Gaza?
Yes or no?
Piers, I've told you the calculus.
You did.
I've told you the ratio between the 30,000 Hamas and civilians.
Two to one civilians are terrorists.
That's 90,000.
Of the ratio.
Benjamin, I think you know what you've done, don't you?
Yes, I've told you the truth.
You know that your numbers are way higher than the Gaza Health Ministry.
The ministry you say has massively exaggerated the death count.
You're dancing around a point that I've made to you.
It's a very clear point.
I'm sure your viewers are sad.
So we can all hear what you're saying.
No, no, no.
You are quoting.
You are quoting here in this op-ed.
This op-ed was written.
No, no, I'm quoting you.
No, no, no.
You.
No, I stand by.
You.
30,000 terrorists.
Two to one.
You seem to think that.
Civilian to terrorists.
So 60,000 civilians as 90,000.
You see.
Well, can't you understand, Benjamin?
Do you not do basic maths?
I understand everything.
You are making the error of thinking that you somehow have me on the run.
You don't.
I do.
You stand by the numbers.
I do.
They explain the breakdown of the numbers.
If you want to obsess about that, you can do it.
I'm just trying to get my head around what you've told me.
Do you say that simply civilians killed me speak for the title?
Is it 90,000 then the death toll?
One terrorist killed for an approximately two civilians killed as a ratio.
I heard you.
That is a very good ratio.
Yes.
And the estimates of the terrorists are 30,000.
Yes.
So I stand by the number.
I stand by the total.
I'm very proud of the way in which we've processed it.
Yes, Benjamin, can you do basic maths?
The number in this opinion piece, the number in this opinion piece, speaks only and exclusively about a general number.
It doesn't break down those numbers.
Now, a month ago, we're in the next step.
Benjamin, Benjamin, you can keep talking, Benjamin.
But here's the problem with your maths.
It's a total of over 10.
It's a total of over 90,000.
Your numbers are way.
Do you not understand, Benjamin?
I stand by my maths.
So you're stand by the math.
Okay.
So what you're saying, just to be clear, just to be clear, if you stop talking for a minute, just to be clear, Benjamin, stop talking for a minute.
Will you let me respond?
No, I want you to shut up.
Right?
You've now said your opening position with my other guest was that the Gaza-run health ministry cannot be trusted on the casualty numbers.
Yet your numbers are way higher than the Gaza Health Ministry.
Explain.
But what?
Okay, can I explain?
Yeah.
I've done it already.
Will you allow me to explain?
Sure.
Okay.
First of all, number one, categorically, I stand by those estimates.
Sure.
90,000.
Yep, I stand by the estimates.
Okay, so your numbers are way higher than the Gaza Health Ministry.
You will not let me explain.
Because your numbers are higher.
You're behaving precisely.
It's completely irrelevant to the point I'm making.
If you'd let me make a point, you said that their numbers are wrong.
Yours are higher.
You think more have been killed.
Natasha Hausdorff, you're doing precisely what you're talking about.
Well, you know what?
People talk utter crap, Benjamin.
That's what I do.
That's what I do.
Will you let me answer your allegation so that people move on?
No, no, no, Piers, you keep talking about math as though I haven't already acknowledged a number, given a number.
90,000.
How many times do you want me to answer?
Is it 90,000, Benjamin?
How many times do you want me to answer?
I've just answered that.
Benjamin, just confirm for me.
You believe 90,000 people have been killed in Gaza.
Yes or no?
My issue is very, very Benjamin.
Do you believe 90,000 people have been killed in Gaza?
Accord again, this is now the fourth or fifth time that I'm going to address myself.
Go on, is it 90,000 or not?
You haven't got a Paxman moment.
I'm answering you directly.
Is it 90,000 or not?
The estimate is 30,000 Hamas terrorists have been killed during the course of this week.
The additional estimate by the IDF is that in the course of pursuing those terrorists, two civilians have been killed.
I heard you for each terrorist.
And where is my issue?
So you've added that up and you've come to the figure of 90,000 and I stand by it.
You seem to try to say 90,000 people have been trying to move away from anything.
I've answered you.
No, you haven't.
You won't say the number.
I've just said it tens.
What is the number?
This is a ridiculous interview.
What is the number?
9-0.
Okay, great.
So you accept then that your number is way higher than the number of the Gaza Health Ministry have put up.
Piers, that's not the issue at play.
You literally started this whole debate by saying the Gaza...
The big mistake that Jotun was making, the big mistake Yottam was making was believing the Gaza Health Ministry, and actually your number is way higher.
Can I explain to you why?
Because what the Gaza Health Ministry, whenever he took those numbers, which at least we know is back in August, what the Gaza Health Ministry, and quite frankly, what too many spokespersons fail to do is to break down the number within that group that are.
Well, I'm very glad you've broken it down because your numbers are higher than the Gaza Health Ministry.
I stand by that, Piers.
I know you do.
60,000 or 90,000.
It behooves us to know how many within that are terrorists.
Sure.
How many are civilians?
And how do you get to the rate of the state?
No, I get it.
I get it.
It's a basic convention of war.
I get it.
We've spent 15 stanzas.
We've spent literally 15 minutes.
No, no, no.
You are clearly trying to have your viewers take a number without any context.
I don't want that to be the case.
The context is very clear.
I appreciate the context.
And by the way, the people who are realistic understand that in war, such things are not.
I get it, Benjamin.
Unfortunately, do you want to talk about anything else?
Yeah, I just, Benjamin, you see.
You can, Yottam, you know.
I just think, Josham, the point, the reason I've kept pursuing this is because obviously, if your opening gambit is that you, Yotem, are using numbers which are false because they're exaggerated, because the Gaza Health Ministry cannot be believed because it's Hamas run.
But then Benjamin Anthony gives a much higher figure for the number of people who've died in total, including Hamas terrorists and civilians, then you can understand my bemusement, which is why I spent 15 minutes trying to get him to explain why his numbers are way higher than the official Gaza Health Ministry now.
What occurred?
That's not over to you.
I'm trying to explain the context and you're trying to skip over.
Actually, you know what, Benjamin?
You're talking complete bullshit.
Final Words on the Debate00:04:38
So here you go.
And this is what happens to you.
And I know what's going to happen.
You're going to run off and you're going to say, I shouted at you and I said bullshit and you're going to play the victim.
But actually, it really matters that you talk bullshit.
I do not agree with you.
People don't agree with you, Piers, and you will not discuss anything.
Oh, no, I'm happy to agree with you.
Your numbers are higher than Hamas.
People talking BS.
It's not the case.
Everybody knows it's not the case.
Yes.
And I'm not here to have you attempt to bully or to steamroll.
You hold it.
I'm a victim of nobody, Piers.
You're a victim of your own mass.
You are a victim of seeking endless popularity and vindication by the masses, having no spine, having no principles, and having no courage.
Thanks, Benjamin.
You are a victim, Piers Morgan.
I am far from a victim.
Okay.
Well, I'm very glad we got you on to confirm.
And by the way, with regard to Yotam, I just want to say something to your viewers.
Yotam, unlike you, I am not scared about the future of Israel.
I'm confident about the future of Israel.
I'm very secure in the future of Israel.
I believe in the future of Israel.
I'm proud of the actions of the Israel Defense Forces inside the Gaza Strip and everywhere else that we've been called on to fight our corner because nobody else will.
You've made a dreadful folly by taking conversations that you know take place regularly and often in reserve duty.
All right.
I'll give the final word to Yoshim.
And from the right.
And you have decided to take your own concerns, your own insecurities, and your own fears, which are not well-founded at all, and to export them to imbecilic interviewers like the one that we currently sit in front of.
I think everyone can work out who the imbecile is.
Everyone can work out who the imbecile is.
Whichever way the wind takes him.
Okay, thank you very much, Benjamin.
We'll be remembered.
If you don't shut up, we are going to cut your mic.
If I were you, I work with many of the hostages.
Oh, shut up, please.
So do not speak fast.
All right, cut his mic.
Do not speak fast.
Cut his mic.
I work with the hostels.
Okay, thank you.
Yossim, final word to you.
Okay.
The use, the cynical use now, but of the host family is outrageous.
I will even call him about that.
I would say I think we both saw the amount of destruction and we saw you see death.
That's part of war.
We know that.
Again, I'm not a pacifist.
I took part in it.
I am very concerned by the amount of death and destruction in Gaza.
And I think everyone should be.
You know what, Yossim?
Yossam, I've got to jump in because we run out of time because I've got my next segment waiting.
But I would just say the reason I pursued this issue of the numbers of people who've died is because having tried to discredit you by saying you were believing the Hamas numbers, actually the numbers he then gave were significantly higher than anything Hamas has tried to claim have died.
So I thought that was very relevant.
Yossim.
My last comment about that is that there's no context.
No, sorry, you're not demited.
Sorry, you're demit.
Great.
Yossum.
My last comment about that is, you know, again, we have, we could hold in the modern world, in the modern, a moral stand.
We could hold several, you know, we could hold something that could be justified under a state of war, you know, as, you know, having casualties, as, you know, not having a sense of criminalization, but you can't hold that forever.
You can't say, yeah, we're going to go through an endless war with no period of time.
I agree.
You see, and then you say, okay, this is how it looks like.
This is not, at some point, you have to, you have to, you know, even under humanitarian law, you could hold occupation.
Like, you could, that's, that's an option under international public law.
You could, you could do that.
Yotam, I've got to go.
I'm sorry.
Yotam, I've got to go.
I really appreciate you coming on.
I think it's very significant that we've had a former IDF sergeant and current IDF reservist who thinks over 90,000 Palestinians have been killed.
It's good to get that on the record because it's way higher than the Hamas numbers.
So I actually thank Benjamin Anthony for giving us that information.
Thank you both very much.
I appreciate it.
Thank you.
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