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May 21, 2025 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
30:23
20250521_this-is-genocide-mehdi-hasan-vs-maj-john-spencer-o
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Time Text
Suffering in Gaza 00:09:11
A sane country does not attack civilians, does not kill babies as a hobby, and does not expel civilian populations.
The list of people who are responsible, Israel's not on it, in my list.
Hamas is on it.
I love it when John and Douglas Murray and these people say, oh, we've been on the ground in Gaza.
Yeah, as guests of the Israeli military that's doing the killing, starving, and maiming.
Mehdi can probably go with Al Jazeera to the Hamas side.
Let's not play this credentials games because John will lose, just like Douglas did on the Rogan show.
Mehdi, control yourself.
You don't actually give a shit about the people of Yemen and Sudan.
Show me how many things you've written about Yemen and Sudan versus what I've written.
I actually don't give a shit about you.
Oh, control yourself, John.
The bombardment is wholly disproportionate.
The civilian death, toll, and suffering is intolerable.
The denial of aid is unacceptable.
These are not the words of democratic leaders about Putin's war on Ukraine, but those of the UK, France, and Canada about Israel's ongoing offensive in Gaza.
President Trump now says it's time for Netanyahu to wrap it up.
Israel is allowing some aid to trickle into Gaza after an 11-week blockade, but aid workers say it's a drop in the ocean.
And the US president has acknowledged that a lot of people in Gaza are starving.
Shamefully, Hamas still holds 58 hostages and is watching the total destruction of Gaza and its people because it doesn't want peace and it doesn't value human life.
It was increasingly difficult to argue that the exact same statement doesn't apply to Netanyahu's Israeli government.
Israel's war on Hamas was not a genocide, but genocide isn't something that happens with the push of a button.
A justified war can end with atrocities that stain humanity, as many have through history.
So who is going to stop this one before it does if it hasn't already?
Well, joining me now is Mehdi Hassan, the editor-in-chief and CEO of Zataya and retired Major John Spencer, chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute.
Okay, let's get into this.
Mehdi, welcome back to Uncensored.
Listen, you and I have talked about this war in Gaza for ever since it started, this phase of the 75-year conflict.
And I have resisted going as far as you have done in your criticism of the Israeli government.
I resist no more.
I think we've reached common ground about what we view is happening and has been happening through this period of this blockade, which frankly is just starvation of the people there, including so many innocent young women and children.
And I think that the incessant bombing and killing, and we don't know how many civilians have been killed, but it is on a daily basis, it looks like hundreds of people every day, with no apparent attempt, it seems to me, to have any real plan for how this ends or what happens when it ends, other than if you look at what Smodrich has been saying, probably the most right-wing member of a very right-wing government, he is talking in a genocidal language about kicking all the Palestinians out.
So I think you and I have reached a place in the last few weeks where we are in agreement.
But my question for you, Mehdi, is, how does this end?
I don't know the answer to that question, Piers.
And I'm glad we're in agreement.
I wish we weren't.
Actually, I wish I had been wrong and you were right.
I wish that a year ago when I said on your show, you said, well, if it's not about the hostages, what's it about?
And I said, it's about depopulating Gaza.
It's about conquering Gaza.
I wish I'd been wrong.
But as you said, Bazalo Smotrich, the finance minister in the Israeli government, said this week, we are there to conquer, cleanse, and remain.
Those are his words.
We are disassembling Gaza, he said.
We are leaving it as piles of rubble.
He says, we're doing something that no one's done in the world before.
He bragged out loud and he said, yes, the Gazans will have to leave.
So all of those things are stuff some of us were saying last year.
I wish we hadn't been vindicated in this horrific way.
The killing is ongoing.
The starvation is ongoing.
And look, I do hope that a dam is bursting.
You mentioned the genocide word.
Shmuel Lederman, who is an Israeli researcher of genocide, spent much of 2024 saying it's not a genocide, it's not a genocide.
He was interviewed by a Dutch newspaper last week.
He said, I've changed my position.
It is a genocide.
He said, in my field, there's a consensus among genocide scholars that it's a genocide.
In fact, that Dutch newspaper interviewed seven leading scholars of genocide.
Every single one said, we think what's happening in Gaza is a genocide.
In fact, this week, Piers, you have an Israeli former general, Yeh Golan, saying a sane country does not attack civilians, does not kill babies as a hobby, and does not expel civilian populations.
That is Yeh Golan, the former deputy chief of the Israeli military, prominent Israeli politician.
He was a hero on October the 7th, fought Hamas himself on October the 7th.
This is what he said this week.
Okay, John Spencer, you've been kind of pulling a lot of faces there.
You obviously don't agree.
But given that so many allies of Israel are now raising massive alarm bells about what is happening, you can't be comfortable, surely, with what is going on in Gaza, are you?
Absolutely not.
I think it's horrible.
I think there are people suffering.
I just am not misinformed on who is the cause of that suffering, that it isn't Israel, that war isn't a crime.
War should be avoided at all costs, and Israel did that.
And this war didn't start 75 years ago.
This war started on October 7th when Hamas invaded Israel and tried to destroy and actually did genocidal acts.
I agree that there is a lot of suffering happening in Gaza.
And it's the list of people who are responsible.
Israel's not on it in my list.
Hamas is on it.
And I actually have solutions.
You asked Mehdi for a solution.
I have solutions based on the history of war.
Number one solution is to encourage Egypt to open the gate that they control and create a humanitarian zone.
Let every woman, child, and elderly person out of Gaza.
Just like you and I have discussed in the past about Ukraine.
Five million women, children, elderly left Ukraine to escape Russia's evil bombardments.
That could be done today, and it's criminal that it hasn't happened today.
Now, Mehdi uses experts, although I thought grinitionalism and expert theory was a bad thing today.
I've been on the ground, although I've heard that that's a bad thing as well.
And what's missing here is, again, which is why I was shaking my head, is that you believe, based on statements of politicians that are not the actual government and the decision makers of the institution, that Israel is intentionally causing this harm.
That's false as well.
Point the finger at Hamas, as you've said in the past, Piers, and I'm sorry we've lost you.
Maybe you and I can go to Gaza because it's not going to happen.
Well, actually, it's interesting.
Just on that, John, look, you haven't lost me.
I still think Hamas is a terrorist organization which committed one of the worst terrorist crimes of the last century.
And they should absolutely no longer have any power in that region.
They should absolutely be dismantled as a political force and the rest of it.
I just see no evidence that Israel's mission statement to eradicate Hamas has worked.
In fact, conversely, more and more reports are coming out that for every Hamas terrorist who's been killed, they're being replaced by four or five people who share that ideology.
So the mission statement isn't working.
And you say that Israel is not intentionally killing innocent people, but it knows it is killing a lot of innocent people.
So its argument is we're going after Hamas.
They're embedded in civilian populations.
But they are killing a lot of innocent civilians every single day.
And not just killing them, they're now starving them, which will also lead to deaths, which is a deliberate, willful act of trying to kill people.
Would you accept that?
It's a war crime.
No, not at all.
No.
Starving people.
You can have your own opinions based on your assessment.
Yeah, absolutely not starving people.
So you're talking about the last two months of trucks not going in because Hamas was diverting it.
Although the 42 days prior to that, 25,000 trucks went into Gaza.
There is absolutely people hungry in Gaza, but Israel is not intentionally starving civilians.
Is it trying to starve Hamas combatants in this war that was starting on October 7th?
No, the evidence doesn't show that.
This is the lies, damn lies of statistics, and using certain organizations that are using trusted agents.
Here's a good, for instance, recently, Mehdi put on a British doctor in southern Gaza on his show.
Maybe you've had him on, and he's talking about how bad the hospitals are.
He's sitting in a European hospital in southern Gaza, where they just killed Mohammad Sinwar, who was in a tunnel underneath the hospital.
This double standard about Israel, this double standard about war is problematic, Piers, and here's why, is we're going to validate the practice of taking hostages.
We're going to validate the use of your own population as human shields, because that's what Hamas is doing.
Now, innocent civilians, of course, innocent civilians have died because Hamas does things like not let them evacuate when they're told to evacuate, like actually holding children in their arms while they shoot at the IDF.
And again, we can go, and Mehdi can probably go with Al Jazeera to the Hamas side and look for ourselves on what you think the Israel is trying to do.
Double Standards on War 00:02:07
I also have like, well, what did you want Israel to do on October 7th?
And had the world not stopped and done things like, don't go to Rafah where the hostages are, where Yahya Sinoirs, this war would be over by the way.
Okay, I'll bring Mehdi to respond.
I mean, the one thing I would say is Israel's ongoing refusal to allow international journalists to operate freely in Gaza is a suppression of us uncovering the reality.
You say come into Gaza.
That's actually Fox News.
No, no, Israel, Israel.
Israel has barred almost every international journalist from getting anywhere near it.
You know that and I know that.
And it's unpopular.
Obviously, it is actually for my sixth time.
It's unprecedented for international journalists to be banned in this way from a war zone.
It's unprecedented.
And it does beg the question, John, why?
Now, Mehdi, your response to what John has said there.
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Pure Tea for Gut Health 00:15:07
I mean, I don't know how I can respond.
So much gaslighting from the very beginning.
John has been on the ground in Gaza, yeah, as an embed.
I love it when John and Douglas Murray and these people say, oh, we've been on the ground in Gaza.
Yeah, as guests of the Israeli military that's doing the killing, starving and maiming.
And you've come back and done exactly what they wanted to do.
You've done their propaganda for them.
Journalists have not been allowed freely into Gaza.
That's why every major media organization on planet Earth has said to the Israeli government, you must allow journalists in.
The Palestinian journalists who are there have been killed in record numbers.
Of course, Piers, you're right.
They want to hide what they're doing.
That's why they're killing the journalists there and blocking the journalists from coming in.
This idea that he's been on the ground.
Yeah, I did interview a doctor, a British plastic surgeon, Dr. Tom Potoga.
And by the way, he wasn't in the European hospital because the hospital got bombed by Israel.
He was in another hospital and he talked to me about how he has to treat patients who have maggots in their wounds.
He has to treat patients without limbs.
He has to treat children.
I've interviewed multiple doctors on the ground in Gaza, actually in Gaza, not hanging around with Israeli military.
And they've all said the same thing.
American doctors, British doctors, Canadian doctors.
They've all talked about how many kids they saw with sniper bullets to the head and chest.
Israel does intentionally kill civilians.
That's why Benjamin Netanyahu and Yov Gallant were indicted at the International Criminal Court for precisely those charges for killing, willful killing of Palestinians for murder and persecution.
That's why they've been indicted.
That's why every human rights group in the world says war crimes are being committed.
They've killed people holding white flags.
We've seen it with our own eyes.
They've bombed buildings without warning with families inside, like the Aldos family that I often cite in October 2023.
They've dropped 2,000-pound bombs on refugee camps full of hundreds of people.
They have killed seven aid workers in a clearly marked World Central Kitchen aid convoy.
They've bombed World Food Program convoys, leading to Cindy McCain, the wife of the most pro-Israeli senator of my lifetime, to come out and condemn Israel for attacking aid workers.
John wants you to ignore Cindy McCain and British and American doctors and human rights groups and your own lying eyes watching people with white flags being gunned down.
He wants you to believe him and his Israeli military minders.
Okay, Benny, before we go back to John to respond to that, the question that he raised, and I think I've asked you this before, but I'm still curious about, given the way this has all played out, how should, and I saw Basim Yousup being asked this on trigonometry last week, I think it was, and he struggled to answer.
How should Israel have responded to a terrorist attack, which just to remind viewers, over 1,200 people were murdered, nearly 7,000 more were wounded, over 250 people, including babies and Holocaust survivors, were kidnapped and taken hostage.
And many of those have died.
How should Israel have responded to the biggest attack on its people and its land since its existence?
So there's no easy answer to that question, Piers.
And you might not like the answer I give you, which is that Israel should have responded by abiding by international law, by sticking with the rules of armed conflict, by targeting only the people they believe carried out the crime.
They should have used an international coalition of countries that was fully behind them.
The majority of the world was behind Israel after the tragedy of October the 7th.
And by the way, I have a longer memory than maybe some people in this country.
After 9-11, I got asked the same question.
Well, what should we do if we don't bomb Afghanistan?
What should we do if we don't go after bin Laden, etc.?
How did that work out?
23 years later, your pal Donald Trump is taking pictures with the former leader of al-Qaeda, who's still on a globally designated terrorist wanted list, right?
That's where we came.
The war on terror was a complete failure.
And some of us who saw that, and by the way, Joe Biden even said this in one of his more coherent moments.
He said, Israel should learn from our lessons.
Israel did not learn from the U.S. lessons.
And actually, even if you forget about all the innocent Palestinians they killed, even if you don't give a shit about the people of Gaza, even if you only care about the people of Israel, Israel's not any safer today.
Israel is not winning this war.
John said on Times Radio a year ago, I went back and checked, March of last year, John said, we're very close to winning.
Israel's close to victory.
Over a year later, they're not close to victory.
They're just starving children and denying baby formula.
And the former Israeli general who ran the Gaza division said a few months ago, Hamas is winning this war.
So they've not made themselves any more secure.
I don't have some perfect solution for what they should have done October 7th.
But I do think they shouldn't have killed 50 to 100,000 people and they shouldn't have made themselves less secure.
And by the way, the prime minister should have resigned because he's the one who let it happen on his watch.
Well, I certainly agree with that.
And I do think there'll be a day of reckoning for Netanyahu.
The problem is, John, that Netanyahu is facing corruption charges and a trial, which may well lead to his imprisonment if he's convicted.
So, there's no motivation for him to bring this to an end anytime soon.
And listen, I agree with Mehdi.
You know, this was supposed to have been a war that Israel with its massively superior military could have ended quite quickly.
My question for you, John, you're a military expert, is when you look at the way that Israel went after Hezbollah with that extraordinary pager attack that was unleashed on 3,000 members of Hezbollah, you think if you've got the capability to do that through Mossad and your other agencies, there were only 25,000 Hamas terrorists, we believe, at the start of this war.
Why could they not have deployed similar sophisticated technology in a way that did not involve the mass slaughter of so many civilians in a place where the population is 50% under 18?
Sure.
I mean, not to say that experts are a good thing, but Mehdi has said he doesn't know much about military affairs, but he does talk about it a lot.
So in your question, it's pretty easy to answer, is that it's a clear sign that Israel did disengage from Gaza.
And the human intelligence that was required to pull off the historic pager operation against Hezbollah couldn't be replicated because Israel didn't have that level of intelligence in Gaza because it had disengaged and allowed Hamas to build this, what is a military challenge no military has faced in the history of really any war.
And the fact that Hezbollah did let the civilians get out of southern Lebanon as the war began against them is a telling marker of why people can't understand what's going on in Gaza.
Now, you didn't ask me the question of what Israel should have done because I actually teach urban warfare at this scale.
I've actually studied the history of urban warfare from Stalingrad to Fallujah, Mosul, Mawar, you name it.
And when I said those statements on Time Radio, if the world would have allowed Israel to continue, five divisions going heavy against Hamas, moving civilians out of harm's way, we'd be in a different place.
And this hypocrisy of the numbers, right?
So there's three types of lies, lies, damn lies, and statistics.
There's been 85,000 children under the age of five who have died from starvation in Yemen since the Yemen civil war.
I don't see protests and I don't see daily coverage on what's going on in Yemen, where there's 2 million people actually starving.
So I actually know what is possible to achieve the goals that Israel said.
And I've interviewed Prime Minister Netanyahu myself.
The goals haven't changed and they are achievable.
And if you don't achieve them, you're only going to continue the cycle of violence.
And had the world not stopped Israel back when it said, don't go to Arafah, you can't use big bombs against people in tunnels.
This is crazy on what we're setting the standard for.
This Israeli standard for war, if it continues, any nation trying to defend itself after being an attempted actual genocide against its people won't be able to.
So I'm saying that Israel has done more to protect civilians in war, even when Hamas, who uses human sacrifice, is trying to get civilians killed.
And they say this, this isn't John Spencer's word.
Israel has done more to protect civilians than any other military in any comparable situation against something that nobody has seen as this evil of Hamas.
But if you're right, John, if you're right, why are so many of Israel's allies now turning on Israel?
Why is the UK calling it morally unjustifiable?
Why is the UK, France, and Canada combined to say they strongly oppose the expansion of Israel's military operations in Gaza?
The level of human suffering is intolerable.
They call for the release of the remaining hostages.
Of course, they should be released.
But they say this escalation by Israel is wholly disproportionate.
Donald Trump didn't even visit Netanyahu when he went to the Middle East for the week, right?
All these things are adding up to me to a collective view by Israel's allies that they are losing the support of the people they should normally most rely on.
So, you know, you're very confident everything they're doing is completely justified, but their own main allies are not.
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Well, I think each ally should ask their own militaries and their experts within their country, like the UK.
Why don't you ask Sir Andrew Roberts what the UK military would have done had that happened on UK soil?
Because I can tell you what the United States would have done.
And they would have also answered with overwhelming, and you keep using disproportionate.
Actually, that's not right.
Proportionality against the value of the military target.
And I view my survival of my country very proportional.
And what we would have done in the United States had an evil organization crossed our border, killed, raped, beheaded, taken hostages.
We would have responded immediately with overwhelming force to include ensure not one rocket came out of enemy territory until you made the enemy recognize that they aren't going to win and that they're going to lose.
That's how you win a war.
Well, hang on, hang on.
Before I go to Medi.
Okay, but before I go to Medicaid, hang on, before you go, I go to Mehdi for a response.
I mean, Mehdi articulated earlier the problem with that theory, which is after 9-11, which was the worst attack on American mainland since anyone could remember, that after that, they did launch a massive bombardment of Afghanistan.
And where did that get America?
In the end, it got America to a place where it left with its tail between its legs, with a load of people being killed on live television, horrific scenes, a betrayal of many people who had helped America during that war.
And you cannot point to that and say there was any great victory.
And this is the problem with what's going on in Gaza now.
What does victory now look like?
Because it's not going to lead to the removal of Hamas as an entity.
And it looks like support for Hamas has grown, not deteriorated.
So I don't understand what victory looks like other than what Smodrich has been saying, which is actually what it looks like is all the Palestinians gone.
The Israel go in, clear them out, and they take over the land.
Well, that, I'm afraid, whether you like it or not, John, is actually one of the definitions of a genocide.
The expulsion of a people based on his ethnicity.
Mehdi, your response.
So, yeah, a lot's been said there.
Thank you for coming back to me.
First of all, let me just deal with this credentials game that I know John and his friend Douglas Murray love to play these days about military who knows more about this or that.
John runs his mouth on a variety of topics.
I've seen him talk about.
In fact, just today, he's talked about war crimes, international law, who's breaking international law.
Last time I checked, John is not a lawyer.
The International Criminal Court has indicted Netanyahu and Gallant for war crimes and crimes against humanity.
The former Jewish president of the IC of the Tribunals for Yugoslavia and Rwanda says Netanyahu should be indicted for war crimes and crimes against humanity.
So let's just, we've got to play the expert game.
John's not an expert on genocide.
The actual genocide experts, the president of the International Association of Genocide Scholars, says Gaza is a genocide.
The leading Israeli scholars of the Holocaust, Omar Bartovot Brown, Amos Goldberg at Hebrew University, say Gaza is a genocide.
John's not an expert on targeting terrorists.
The guy who led the attack on ISIS, the American Master Sergeant Wes Bryant, has said John doesn't know what he's talking about.
So let's not play this credentials games because John will lose, just like Douglas did on the Rogan show.
Let's talk about substance.
John said a year ago, we're close to winning.
He talked about not being allowed into Rafah.
Rafah has been destroyed.
Have you looked at any pictures recently?
It's flattened.
You don't need to go there with the IDF to see that they flattened Rafah.
They've flattened most of Gaza and they still have not won, quote unquote.
It's absurd to say that Israel was held back.
Is this the new stab in the back?
This is the new bullshit defense.
The former Israeli ambassador to the United States said recently, thank God Joe Biden was president while this was going on.
He gave us everything we wanted.
He never asked us to stop.
He never asked for a ceasefire.
America gave Israel everything it wanted and they went ahead and decided to, you know, you talk about killing Hamas commanders.
They dropped two 2,000-pound bombs on October the 31st, 2023, on the Jabalia refugee camp, killing over 100 people to kill one guy, Ibrahim Biari, who wasn't even there, a Hamas commander.
They killed over 100 people with two 2,000-pound bombs, which incinerate everyone within 100 square feet and damage everyone within 1,000 square feet.
That is not targeted welfare.
That is not proportionate.
That is not legal.
And we've seen that play out now over 20 months.
And as you said at the start of the show, as I said, the dam is breaking.
The Spanish prime minister said Israel is a genocidal state.
The Brits, the French, the Canadians that have backed everything Israel done.
Britain continues to arm Israel and saying this is intolerable.
Donald Trump, as you've said, Piers, wants this done, wants this over, isn't a fan of Netanyahu, not that I have any trust in Trump to do any of the right thing.
And I think the reality is, look, everyone can see with their own eyes.
There's no justification ever for starving people.
Since March the 2nd to not allow baby formula and diapers in, only a sociopath would support that.
And John's very smart.
He's very eloquent.
He comes on here, he talks with stats, cites law.
Back in Israel, the Israeli politicians and the Israeli journalists are saying openly genocidal things.
They are saying everyone in Gaza is our enemy.
They are saying we're going to get rid of everyone from Gaza.
They are saying Gazan babies are not innocent.
That's what they say on Israeli television, if anyone bothers to watch.
Yeah, and actually, John, there was a piece in the Jewish news in the UK published yesterday, which was without a doubt the most critical piece I have read by a mainstream Jewish newspaper in this country ever.
And it was very critical of the Israeli government and its strategy.
So I think this idea that what they're doing, the government, has widespread support now from Israelis or Jewish people globally, I think is actually beginning to be proven wrong.
I think there's a lot of uprisings now of people saying enough because they can see there's no end game.
No one really on the Israeli government side has explained what is going to happen when this war ends or indeed what victory looks like.
And I just don't understand.
I mean, look, you're a war expert.
Critical Jewish Newspaper Piece 00:03:31
If you don't have a victory, what happens?
So you have continued war.
So this is, I mean, there was a lot there that Nehi talked about.
And if you have to quote a master sergeant as your expert, as you're trying to say that I'm not an expert or the other people that you list, why you're saying I'm not an expert?
He's the guy who literally literally made the effort to kill ISIS.
But okay.
Don't interrupt me.
I didn't interrupt you, but you're not an expert.
Fine.
I'm not an expert.
Fine.
But history, military tactics, you say, Piers, what does victory look like?
Yeah.
Exactly the standards.
Every hostage brought home.
Hamas not in power, both military or political power in Gaza.
And there's something else.
Now you have actual great quote Israeli press.
That's the beauty of a free press.
People can say what they want and get it published.
You have people voting with their famous in Gaza right now saying, Hamas, we don't want Hamas.
What you have, what victory looks like.
Now I can tell you historically what it has ever looked like and what did it take to defeat another military.
Take the Korean War.
Two million civilians died in the Korean War.
54,000 civilians a month for every month of that war.
Do we call that a genocide?
Do we call it illegal?
No.
Israel does follow the law of war and goes way beyond the legal obligations, like feeding the enemy's population, because as of right now, trucks are rolling in, even though they've tried to figure out a plan to get the food away from Hamas.
Again, point the finger at Hamas.
Point the feet.
Mehdi, control yourself.
Open the gates to Egypt, create the biggest displaced person camp just on the other side of the gate and get the women, the children, and the elderly out of harm's way, and then destroy Hamas.
That's victory so that it never threatens Israel again.
Go to Sir Andrew Roberts on the history of when you start a war, when you lose a war, you actually do lose the right to govern your population.
You do lose the right to subjugate your population because the billionaires in Qatar don't care how many people in Gaza are dying.
Okay, Mehdi, final word to you.
I mean, look, we could argue about what victory looks like.
We can also argue that a victory shouldn't involve a genocide, right?
That's been my consistent position from the beginning.
Don't kill civilians.
Don't intentionally harm civilians.
When the former head of the Israeli military, the former Israeli defense minister, not some lefty, not some anti-Semite, Moshe Yalon says last week, we're doing ethnic cleansing.
We're sending our soldiers to commit war crimes.
We're losing touch with our Jewish values.
That's what Moshe Yalon, a hawk, the former head of the Israeli military, said last week.
There's a reason he's saying that, and there's a reason John Spencer doesn't want to engage with that, because Israeli generals are saying it themselves.
We've turned killing kids into a hobby.
The world can see.
I thought we're not interrupting, John.
The world can see what Israel is doing.
Israeli generals can see.
And by the way, one last point.
Please don't go and invoke Yemen to score your points.
I think I've spoken and wrote more about Yemen than you ever have.
People like you only ever come along and site Yemen and Sudan to defend Israel.
You don't actually give a shit about the people of Yemen and Sudan.
Show me how many things you've written about Yemen and Sudan versus what I've written about Yemen and Sudan.
Okay.
I actually don't give a shit about you.
I care about civilians.
Oh, control yourself, John.
Thank you, gentlemen.
We nearly got there without going out of hobby, but we fell at the final hurdle, but it was an interesting debate.
Thank you both very much.
Independent Press Stance 00:00:24
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