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Oct. 22, 2024 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
34:07
20241022_the-death-of-liam-payne-with-howie-mandel-katie-wa
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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The Industry Failed Liam 00:01:25
Liam Payne has substances including cocaine, crack and benzodiazepam.
This is not a talent thing.
In fact, Liam, if he came to a talent thing, his outcome was great.
I don't need to play into this.
I'm here to speak about the tragic loss of our dear friend Liam.
Thank you very much.
This is what Liam actually sent.
Here's you're only here because you talk shit about ever want to make controversial outbursts about people to get attention.
Okay, what's your point?
When these people are becoming famous and they're getting the money that they want, but when you have the dark side of fame, that suddenly becomes everyone else's fault.
So if you didn't want to do the interview, you shouldn't have done it.
Well, do you know what?
I said no initially, but...
Well, you're here now, aren't you?
You managed to force yourself once again to do something you don't want to do.
Minutes before his tragic death, Liam Payne reportedly said, I used to be in a boy band.
That's why I'm so messed up.
Inevitably, there's been a lot of soul-searching about the music industry, about young stars, and about talent shows.
Former X-Factor judge Sharon Osborne said the industry failed Liam Payne and needs reform.
Guy Chambers, who wrote many of Robbie Williams' biggest hits, questioned whether miners should be allowed to sign for boy bands at all.
Some even say it's time to ban shows like X Factor and America's Got Talent altogether.
The part that many people are reluctant to say out loud is that fame brings not only risk, but also massive opportunity and privilege.
The world of money, luxury and untold adulation is often inseparable from drugs, intrusion and the eventual fall from grace.
Mental Health in Showbiz 00:05:12
We've seen it so many times.
Is it a risk that society should continue to take with its brightest stars?
Well, in a moment, I'll be joined by Katie Wasel, who's the British singer-songwriter who auditioned alongside Payne on the 2010 series of X Factor and is currently suing Simon Carl's Rocket Company for an alleged breach of duty of care.
But first, uncensored contributor Esther Krack will be with me, DJ and comedian James Barr, who knew Liam.
And up first, the current judge on America's Got Talent, my former colleague on that show, and Canada's Got Talent, Howie Mandel.
Howie, thank you so much for joining me.
I've got to say that I was...
Thanks for having me, buddy.
You know, like everyone, I was devastated to see this news about Liam Payne.
31 years old.
It's an absolutely shocking tragedy that he's dead.
We don't know, and it's very important to stress this.
We do not know yet whether he died accidentally, whether he took his own life or what may have contributed to his death.
That's not been established yet.
So I think it's very important to have that on the record at the start before we start going down the rabbit holes of assumption here.
But in relation to your time, long time now, of being a judge on a talent show where so many young people come on and they try their luck and they're looking for fame and fortune, as they all are, and some make it and most don't.
What do you feel about this issue about the duty of care towards them?
See, the duty of care for me doesn't come from these production companies or these shows.
The duty of care comes from humanity.
And I don't know that people know me there, but my soapbox, aside from being a judge and a comedian and whatever, is mental health.
And I think mental health is paramount.
You know, and I always say, I wish people would take care of their mental health the way they take care of their dental health.
You know, regardless, when you have a child, regardless of them being in pain, you take them to the dentist once a year to get their teeth cleaned or get checked and you go, look, mom, no cavities.
But there isn't anything in place in our curriculum of life to check in professionally with somebody's mental health.
So I think this is, and even insurance companies, at least here in America, don't parody.
If you see somebody with a broken leg, they'll take care of you.
If somebody's hearing voices, unless you could see it on an x-ray, you probably won't get the same funds or help or professionalism to take care of that.
So my thing is, you know, listen, I've been open.
I struggle with mental health.
As I talked to you today, I'm heavily medicated and I've been going to therapy for years and I have OCD and depression and anxiety.
Here's what we do know: Liam, we don't know whether he jumped.
We knew that he was suffering an episode.
We know that he was having trouble in the lobby and whether it was because he was on some substance and whether, regardless of what it was, that is a mental health issue.
It's harder to deal with mental health.
There's always a stigma involved publicly.
It's harder if you are known and you're a celebrity.
You know, it adds more pressure to the fact of trying to deal with whatever you're dealing with.
And maybe when you are a little bit fragile to be in show business, whether it's on a talent show or not, you know, life is filled with rejection and life is really hard.
And under the spotlight, it's even harder.
I think what we need to do in this world is recognize mental health and recognize, you know, and I would imagine this is the same in the UK.
If somebody fell down on the sidewalk in front of you and they fell and smashed their head open on a curb and there was blood everywhere, somebody would call 911 and you'd go cart them off to a hospital and get them taken care of.
If somebody is walking down the street screaming weird things, you avoid them.
You don't make eye contact.
Well, mental health is the same sort of thing, that's your health because you don't see them bleeding, because you don't see a broken bone, and this is rampant.
It's rampant in our society.
That's our problem.
If we took care of a mental health, we would have world peace.
We would be more productive.
We would be a better, happier community just on the globe.
And I think that show business shines a life, a light on it.
And if anything positive could come out of this tragedy, it's the fact that somebody out there who is suffering can realize that they're not alone.
And even somebody who has money and fame and opportunity is suffering like that person who has nobody and nothing in their lives.
And maybe you won't feel that uncomfortable speaking out to somebody.
And whether that somebody is a family member, a co-worker, a partner, a caregiver, we just have to continue to talk about it.
And even you doing this segment is an incredible service to humanity.
Well, it's interesting, you know, because I've been listening to what you've been saying.
You and I have talked about this privately when we were together.
And I know how much you care about this issue, but both of the other guests who are watching you, Katie Weisel and James Barr here, both of them were shaking their heads.
So Katie, let me start with you.
A Duty to Care 00:15:11
Why were you irritated or disagreed with what Harry was saying there?
Well, hi.
It's under very tragic circumstances.
Thank you for inviting me on here.
And Howie, it's nice to see you.
It's incredibly frustrating because first and foremost, Piers, much like you said in the very beginning, it's incredibly important to not make any speculations as to what happened with Liam and with utmost respect in that instance.
However, with howie understandably diverting the attention, and I know that the essence of mental health and so on and so forth is slightly different in LA or America compared to the UK, is that the shows do have a legal and moral duty of care to those that are participating on it.
And I agree with Howie in terms of from a mental health standpoint, you're right, you can't actually see it physically, and there should be more awareness around mental health will stop.
However, when it comes to participants on those types of shows, myself, of which I was in 2010, there is a legal and moral duty of care which should be upheld and adhered to.
I mean, there is, but as I'm talking to you, there's an A-B news report.
But can I say something?
Can I say something?
Well, you know, you're focusing, and that's because of Liam.
You're focusing on show business.
The truth of the matter is, we all have a moral and legal duty to take care of those people that we come across in life.
And whether you're working at a bank, mental health is absolutely correct.
And I stand by everything you said about mental health.
But it's what you didn't say that I think is the issue here.
You diverted attention away from the shows that are payrolling.
You're on the payroll.
Your answer sounded like something Simon Cowell had emailed to you half an hour ago.
It's a ridiculous thing to say.
I think you're just trying to make good.
You're just trying to make good.
But hang on, okay, hang on.
Hang on one second.
Hang on one second.
Can I just say something?
Well, let me just make...
I want to bring in just a fact.
I want to bring in a fact which has just broken while we've been talking.
So AB News reporting, a partial autopsy, has found that Liam Payne has substances including cocaine, crack, and benzodiazepin, which is a type of depressant, before he fell, right?
Again, we don't know.
That is not a surprise.
So, yeah, so we saw the...
That is not a surprise.
We saw evidence of drugs in the hotel room.
We saw evidence of that he'd been smashing televisions and laptops and so on.
So clearly, something very bad was happening in that room.
And clearly, drugs were playing a part in that.
I mean, in relation to...
Yeah, Howie, in relation to that, I mean, look, I worked with you on America's Got Talent.
I worked with Simon on Britain's Got Talent.
I have to say, and I'm not saying this because I'm a friend of Simon's, although I am, that in all my time working with him and his team, they did take duty of care to contestants very seriously.
They just interjected.
Can I just say something?
Can I say something?
I think your other two-your other two guests I don't agree with.
Howie, speak, please.
Howie?
Can I just speak?
I don't agree with your other two guests at all.
Here's how I feel.
First of all, we do take care of people's mental health.
I don't know that people know it.
And I know that with the God talent.
You want me to show you the receipt?
With the God talent, I'm there.
If you're not going to listen, then she can have her chance to respond.
But let's have a say what he wants to say.
There's been a charge against him.
He doesn't care about that.
We do have psychologists.
Howie?
Can I just respond?
We do not, we have psychologists on staff.
When people feel that when we feel that something, and I know they do it on all the got talent, even around the world, and at BGT also, if we feel that somebody is going south a little bit, there is somebody there to talk to them, and we do watch over them.
But here's my point.
This is not a talent thing.
In fact, Liam, if he came to a talent thing, his outcome was great.
The people who are rejected have the harder time.
The point that I'm making is Liam talked publicly about his mental health and his drug addiction and problems years and years ago.
And the reason show business puts a light on it is if you have a manager at the bank that is putting too much pressure on you and wants you to produce, no matter if you're at the bank, if you're in construction, if you have a lot of kids and you can't handle it and you have a, or you break up, people around you have to be compassionate and take care of you.
And the fact that there's a spotlight on television, it doesn't happen more.
Just like marriages don't break up more on television, on television.
But also, that's what they do at the bank.
Yeah, Howie, let me bring in, Katie, you can respond to that.
I mean, what I would say, though, about Liam, who I didn't know very well, I know some of the other members of the band One Direction much better.
Niall is a good friend of mine and so on.
Clearly, Niall and Harry Stiles and Louie, they've all built incredibly successful solo careers.
I've covered many boy bands over the years where some of them end up doing a lot better than the others when they go solo.
At what point does Simon Cowell or the team on X Factor 15, 16 years ago have an ongoing duty of care to someone like Liam, who's now 31, leading his own life, no longer been working for them for a very long period of time?
At what point do you have a duty of care that moves on from that?
And yeah, these shows would describe these people as their family.
Well, let me, I'm asking Katie for her response to that.
Thank you very much.
And, you know, as much as I've respected everybody else now for talking, I'd like just the floor for a couple of minutes.
I knew before coming on here that this would be the direction that this narrative took.
That's fine.
I'm more than prepared for it.
I was a contestant in 2010.
I know that was a long time ago.
That was 14 years ago, right?
During our time of which Liam and the band and Cher Lloyd and Rebecca Ferguson and so on and so forth were on the show.
There was no duty of care upheld.
The welfare officer was absolutely unqualified beyond measure, which there is evidence of.
And I will happily stand in front of a judge and show all.
Well, you're going to come to that.
Look, we can't preempt what's going to happen if you're a question.
Hang on one second.
Katie, hang on.
Katie's, you're taking, hang on.
They're taking legal action against Psycho.
That's fine.
That will all play out now due to, you know, there'll be a due process there about what went on.
So let's not get into those specifics because they're not here to defend themselves.
But there will be.
Did she need help then?
Well, no, I'm going to ask you this, Katie.
I would ask Katie this.
You know, you came, I think, 10th on X Factor, okay?
And then you did some other reality show after that.
So clearly, it couldn't have been that awful.
You wouldn't have done other reality show.
Well, it couldn't have been.
Otherwise, why put yourself back in it?
Well, hang on.
Let me just make my point.
But thirdly, what as a contestant do you expect from going on these shows?
You know, very, very few people end up getting to the final stages or doing great out of them or becoming stars.
It is a platform to have a go and some do well and some do badly.
Can I answer, please?
And then I'll happily hand the mic over to whoever else wishes.
My six-year-old son is downstairs and he takes priority because I understand what you're all trying to say and rightfully so, but let me answer, please.
I was on the show in 2010.
The welfare person, irrespective of any legal case, these are just facts.
And I'll be quick, Howie.
Don't worry.
It was not qualified or in a position.
Well, they're not here to answer themselves.
So I can't let you do that.
Well, they're not being named.
That's just facts.
There will only have been one.
Okay, well, please let me just finish.
Well, why don't you answer my question?
What did you expect?
What did you expect by going on the show out of interest?
I never wanted to go on the show in the first place.
It'd be very trendy.
What did you do?
Well, you asked Simon Cowell why he purchased my record, Dean, when I'm all about this.
Why is he not on it?
I don't understand.
You are Simon.
Dean if you're good friends with him.
Ask Simon.
Why don't you just tell me why you went on the show if you didn't want to do it?
Did you ask her?
I really do think you should look at this.
You know what I mean?
I don't need to play into this.
I'm here to speak about the tragic loss of our dear friend Liam.
Thank you very much.
I spoke to your producer about this before coming on.
I said I'd be more than happy to come and speak about the bigger industry issues.
All right.
Not to be berated or berated.
I simply asked you why you went on the show in the first place.
And I told you I never wanted to go on the show.
You asked Simon Cowell of why he put me on that show.
I don't understand why you went into me.
Nobody is on any of these shows against their will.
No one is on any of these shows against their will, including this show, right?
So she likes camera time.
Can you just stop interjecting for one second?
I'm answering your question.
I got to go do a reality show.
I'm doing Canada's Got Talent.
Yeah, will you make sure that you're forcing me to go now?
All right, Howie, I appreciate you joining us.
Thank you very much, Ren.
I appreciate it.
Hi.
And with all due respect, buddy.
Okay, yeah, very good.
So, Piers, with all due respect, you know, it's incredibly important to look at the bigger picture.
You said to me that I couldn't respond about the welfare person that wasn't there and able to give their response.
And, you know, so why shouldn't, why should it be different?
Here's my question.
Here's my question about Liam, which is a tragedy.
I didn't know him very well.
I had a couple of Twitter spats with him, and that's about all I met him, I think, twice.
I liked him when I met him.
He's very charming, very quick-witted, clearly very talented.
But my overview of his whole situation is if you look at all the information that's now come out, it appears that his solo career was struggling.
He was let go by the record company quite recently.
Other members of his personal team, his publicists and others, I believe, let him go as well.
Clearly, that was having a negative impact on him.
But they're under no compulsion to have to keep giving contracts to people in the same way that my employers here aren't under that compulsion.
He was in Argentina to go and see Niall play.
He'd been with his girlfriend, who he seemed very happy with.
She went back to America.
And then something has happened that has led to this appalling incident.
And that something involved drugs and some women, apparently, and a smashed up hotel room.
And then he's fallen.
And we don't know whether that's deliberate or not.
But my question for you, and I'll bring James in here.
At what point does the duty of care from a show 15 years ago extend to what has actually happened here in Argentina?
Because I don't really see a direct link other than Liam was finding it much harder to deal with a lack of success in his career than his bandmates who were much more successful, which is understandable.
Well, we'll let James answer that.
Honestly, I'm sat here listening to how he's, you know, wax lyrical about the importance of mental health on a show that openly trashes Sam Smith, Madonna, Meghan Markle with a person that has openly said that her mental health struggles were completely made up.
Who are you talking about?
I'm talking about you there.
Yeah, of course.
I'm not blaming you entirely for this.
This is the whole episode.
What are you saying?
I can't criticize people.
I'm saying that we need to...
What about Meghan Markle treating the royal family?
I am saying that we all...
She never cared about their mental health.
We all know.
Adams.
Adams, when Meghan Markle and Prince Harry trash the royal family's mental health.
That's what I'm saying.
Do you care about that?
Yes, of course I do.
Actually, I think we should care about all of those problems.
We should all stop being so mean to each other.
So when you criticise people.
So hang on, Katie, let him speak, please.
When you criticise people, James.
Let him speak as Piers continues to say.
So James, you should never be allowed to criticise people, James.
Is that it?
By your own rules?
I am saying that, yeah.
I'm saying that we should all think about what we're saying.
You do all the time.
Yeah, I know.
I'm guilty as well.
You're all just a rank of people.
I go on the radio and I make jokes and I feel immensely responsible.
I think we should all feel responsible.
We should.
For every single person that's ever posted.
You know, this is what Liam actually sent to you.
And I think it's important to read it because you would absolutely hate this debate.
Well, hang on.
This is 2019.
Yeah, let me read it.
Let me read what he said.
He said, Piers, put it in context.
Hang on.
I wrote a column in which I criticized one of the Kardashians because they were trying to get on their high horse about something.
I said, listen, let's be clear.
You lot are only famous because Kim Kardashian had a sex tape.
That remains true today, five years later.
I don't think the context is actually that.
It had nothing to do with Liam at the time, but he decided to respond to me.
And then you can read up his.
I just think this stands true.
Piers, you're only here because you talk shit about everyone and make controversial outbursts about people to get attention.
Okay.
What's your point?
My point is that the whole industry is based on that.
The whole industry is about reveling in people's demands.
You're missing the point.
So I wasn't allowed to have an opinion about the Kardashians.
Please don't hate us.
Let me just say something before I go because my son's downstairs and he needs his dinner.
And this is...
Well, if you didn't want to do the interview, you shouldn't have done it.
Well, do you know what?
I said no initially, but...
Well, you're here now, aren't you?
You managed to force yourself once again to do something you don't want to do.
So why don't we just get through it?
Maybe we can look back on my mental health struggles also from that show and how I have the inability to say no to people.
But here I am.
And I just want to say that answer your question, Piers, is why in 2010 should I'm summarizing, but be it of any relevance to duty of care in these days.
I understand that you all have a job to do.
And I understand that everyone's entitled to their own opinion.
But let me explain why.
It is because when there is no duty of care upheld, where there's no mental health support during the show, and I was on it.
I really was on it.
And after the show.
I mean, there's no comparison between what happened to you and what happened to you.
We all signed one direction.
Can you let me finish, please?
There's no comparison between you and One Direction.
Then becoming the biggest boy band in the world with all those stresses and pressures, you came tenth in a reality show.
And I don't see the comparison.
A show that I never wanted to be on.
But you managed to force yourself onto it as you have done again tomorrow.
I hold your horses.
The fundamental thread that holds all of us together is that it doesn't matter where we came in the show.
We all went through the same experience.
We lived in the same house and we were all privy to the same lack of mental health support.
Many, many contestants, whether it was from that season or others, have really struggled and it's been awful.
It's really been awful.
I actually messaged you on Instagram three years ago to talk to you about this off camera.
Lack of Support Systems 00:11:41
But it's fine.
You probably didn't read it and that's absolutely.
I didn't see it, no.
But I did and I reached out to you and I know that we know people in common and I really wanted to put my trust and respect in you as somebody that has also been in this industry for a really, really long time.
I'm not here as someone that is trying to, you know, find the wrongs and things.
I'm someone that actually went through the wrongs of things and it was awful.
And I just wanted to highlight that.
And however, you know, no one was in that hotel where I told you that I respected what you said off the bat right in the very beginning.
Right, we don't know.
Right.
But we do know that he struggled and there's many other people that struggled.
And in taught law, they use the butt for test.
So but for there'd been the right and relevant, you know, support that we all needed.
Let me then who knows.
All right, let me bring in Esther's been waiting very patiently.
Esther, I mean, look, it's a complex area.
I don't for a moment underestimate that when ordinary members of the public are propelled onto a national television stage, particularly when they're showing off their talent and they may get criticized or they may fail or whatever it may be, or they may do stupendously well.
All of it brings a particular pressure that you don't get if you're not thrown into the goldfish bowl.
So I totally get that, right?
But I also think it's a voluntary process.
You know, you don't, no one's got a gun to your head forcing you onto these stages.
When I did Britain's Got Talent, America's Got Talent, you know, people were there because they wanted to be there.
They wanted to win.
They wanted to be rich and famous.
And it seems to me that fame, the real issue here is that fame itself can be a very insidious and damaging drug.
That people find it very, very hard when they've been up here to then deal with life when they come back down to here or are not doing as well perhaps as their other former bandmates are doing or whatever it may be.
All of that brings with it its own pressures, its own strains.
I don't know if that's what happened with Liam here.
We don't know.
We don't even know if what he did was deliberate.
We don't know that yet.
So we're making reckless assumptions if we go down that road.
But this general principle of how long people like Simon Cowell, for example, who I've got a lot of respect for and have worked for a lot, the idea that he is responsible because 15 years ago he put Liam onto a show with a boy band and made them the biggest pop band in the world, which they loved, and that he's now responsible in some way for what's happened to him.
I think that's a massive stretch, which is unfair to him.
I mean, I think the public's attitude to all this is quite interesting.
Because when these people are becoming famous and they're getting the money that they want and the success that they want, you know, they're happy to take that.
But when you have the dark side of fame, that suddenly it becomes everyone else's fault.
And I don't really understand that.
There are loads of people, average people, that die from drug addiction or from obesity or from illnesses that we don't necessarily cry over in the same way.
I'm not saying that Liam Payne doesn't deserve sympathy.
Of course he does.
He's a human being.
And this is a very tragic thing.
But there are many people that die in similar circumstances that don't have the resources or the money to seek help.
And there are famous people that become famous but still keep a strong support network around them and don't go down the route of addiction.
Like Beyonce, for example, she was part of the biggest girl pop group in the world.
And they've sold millions of albums.
And yet she's somehow been grounded.
She has a family.
She has children.
She has a husband.
And she hasn't, from what I know, had dealt with any of these sorts of addictions.
So I just, I find it interesting that somehow some people can make it work.
And we don't speak about them, but the people that don't somehow make it work.
Well, also, if you look at Robbie Williams, Robbie Williams, what does duty of care look like for Robbie Williams?
Robbie Williams made a very good Instagram post about all this and he's been through the absolute roller coaster of this whole ride.
He was in Take That.
I was their official biographer.
So I knew them all incredibly well, including Robbie.
I've remained friends with Robbie and we've talked about this over the years, is that Robbie was part of the biggest pop band in the country, biggest pop band in Europe at the time, Take That.
And then they all went their own separate ways.
Robbie kind of descended into a lot of addictive stuff, including drugs and stuff.
But then he became the biggest solo pop star in the country and in Europe.
And that brought with it a whole new raft of pressures.
And then he gave up stuff like drugs and alcohol.
And he's gone to a different, better place in his life by his own admission.
But he totally understands the journey that Liam Payne went on.
It was very powerful to read what he said.
So again, I'm not underestimating that with it.
It sounds on the face of it.
It's great.
You're rich.
You're famous.
It's fantastic.
And everything.
It brings with it just a very different type of pressure to someone who can't feed their kids, for example, right?
It's a different thing.
But it doesn't mean it's any less real.
And I just think that what's happened with Liam.
Well, but this is nothing new, though.
No, I agree.
It's nothing new.
This is nothing new.
I mean, this idea that you are what you do, I think is flawed because everyone has a job, for example, but they also have friends and family and community and things that make them a whole person, right?
Just because you're a famous songwriter or singer, that's not all you are.
And I think when the public doesn't look at it from the perspective of you have to be a whole person, you can take time off to take care of your kids or to focus on your mental health and all of that.
And then somehow when they spiral and people don't understand, they're like, oh, it's Simon Cowell who didn't have a duty of care to him 14 years down the line.
It's really disjointed.
What does duty of care look like to a 31-year-old man with a child 14 years down the line that he voluntarily went on a reality show?
I don't understand what it's supposed to look like.
I mean, he had friends and family before he went on the show.
And I'm sure they're thinking, how could we have supported him better?
I'm not blaming them, but I'm just saying these people are still human beings before they become famous.
So why is no one talking about that?
James, let me ask you that question.
Hang on, Katie.
I think it's a reasonable question to ask, James, isn't it?
Honestly, I'm at a loss.
For what?
I just feel like you don't understand abuse, to be honest.
And I'm not saying that they suffered abuse, but I am saying I'm saying that celebrity culture and the entertainment industry is abusive as a whole.
Yeah, I think so.
Every single person that posts on X.
But no one asked him to go on X Factor.
No one forced him.
But he's 20 years old.
You're a victim blame.
I'm on the right.
That's massive victim.
I'm not victim blame.
You are just like saying to a P. Diddy victim, no one told you to go to his house.
There's no comparison with P. Diddy.
No, I'm not making one, but he's striking that you can't say.
You don't understand what's going on.
A 14-year-old should not be put on a plane and sent to judges' houses in LA.
A 12-year-old in Britain's got talent should not be given an idea.
Where are the parents?
And I don't know if the parents are not aware of that.
Why would I have the responsibility?
Don't show up, please.
Don't tell us how I reach out.
Hang on.
My question would be: actually, why not?
If a child is talented enough, why not?
I think my point is, I think collectively, there's a responsibility of a lot of different things.
It's not one person's fault, but it isn't also.
It's also not right, Esther, to just say, well, it isn't Simon Cowell's fault because it's everyone's fault.
That's how I say.
It's not.
But what's your solution then?
You have no young people ever put onto the business.
What is Simon Cowell supposed to do?
Handcuff him to a radio.
I want to hear from Katie on that.
Let's explain real quick: is that we're not talking about Simon Cowell, the person.
We're talking about Simon Cowell, who is the owner, CEO of Psycho.
Psycho is the business that went into partnership with and did this deal with Talkback Thames and ITV and what have you.
They have a legal duty of care, whether you're an employee or self-employed.
They do, and they made One Direction the biggest pop band in the world.
But that's not what we're talking about.
We're talking about it.
We're talking about that.
It's a double-edged sword, isn't it?
So then, when you go back to the conversation over why X amount of years on, we're talking about duty of care.
Well, if you're telling me that in one breath, they created One Direction and we were all on the same show.
And this company that Simon Cowell just so happens to own, you know, then there's a legal duty of care there.
Well, Simon Cowell, look, again, look, you're very keen to criticize.
Okay, so why are you doing that?
Hang on, hang on.
Why are you not in the same way?
I mean, look, you're very keen.
Why are you not in sense by Zane Malik?
Well, you're very keen to criticize.
Why aren't you talking about his duty of care?
Well, you're very keen to criticize Simon Cowell, Kenny.
But my thing is, Simon Cowell has created a lot of stars who've become very rich and famous and successful.
I know that he's a good person.
Directly because of him.
I know that he's your friend, and I've got no qualms about it.
If you choose to have that personal relationship, then fine.
I'm strictly talking business.
And Simon Cowell's company, of which we sign contracts, of which I have next to me, I'm happy to show them here on the screen with Psycho.
Simon Cowell owns Psycho.
So that's why Simon Cowell's name comes up.
Not Simon Cowell created these shows.
Why shouldn't he have a company that then there you go?
But then he goes, do you know what?
I think it's, I keep trying to explain, but this is it.
Simon Cowell owns a company, right?
A company has a legal duty of care to the participants, contestants, because there is a legally binding contract there between all of us, whether you make the live shows, whether you're one direction or another.
What has that got to do with Liam Payne, age 30?
Okay, what does that look like?
What does the duty of care look like?
We will take one question at a time because I feel like everyone's coming at different standpoints in a, in a, all over the place.
So let's take one step at a time.
And I'm happy to explain things one step at a time.
I just want you to explain one thing because we're running out of time.
What is the link between X Factor in 2010 and Liam Payne, age 31, just dying in a hotel room in Argentina after taking what appears to be a lot of drugs?
Well, I think that you've answered the question many a time during this segment.
You've mentioned about mental health struggles.
You've mentioned about the...
We don't know why he took his, either took his life or accidentally died.
We don't know yet.
You're making an assumption.
You're making an assumption.
This was something I deliberate out.
We don't know that.
I'm not making any assumption.
You asked the question, if we rewind the tapes, you asked the question about how this tragic incident happened.
You even said at the very beginning of the segment, right?
We cannot speculate what happened and we have to be responsible of that.
So I'm going to keep reverting back to you.
But the more you go on about his mental health, the more you are making that assumption is my point.
The more that you go on about drugs, you know, drugs, because literally an ABC News report in America has just confirmed that the autopsy found that Liam had taken cocaine, crack, and benzodiazepin, which is a type of depressive.
So that gives some insight into what was going on in his life at the time.
We do know that he was applying apparently for an American visa renewal and had tested negative for a lot of drugs.
So there was a lot going on there, which is, which doesn't make a lot of sense, frankly, when you add it all together.
I'm not going to speculate on however Liam spoke very publicly, as many of the acts on our season have done about mental health struggles.
He's spoken about it, even on Stephen Barbara.
I saw it.
I thought it was very moving.
And so, you know, going to put everything into relational context with one another.
And I appreciate you asking these questions because it's important that we outline this, is that we all started off on that show.
Liam wasn't in what direction before the show.
And then there is a company that we had signed contracts with and had an obligation to for whatever and so on and so forth.
They have a duty of care to ensure that our mental health and well-being was protected and they failed to.
Well, as I say, your claim against psycho will be tested by a court at some stage, I imagine.
So we'll see how that works.
Yeah, well, let's hope that you're not on the jury for that.
Hope for Real Change 00:00:37
Well, I won't be, will I?
I won't be.
No, because I have a different view about it, as you know.
But listen, I'm not sure.
You're entitled to your own view.
I just hope you'd be open-minded, at least.
You know, we're not coming from a bad place.
It just is what it is and it needs to change.
That's all.
Yeah, how it gets changed and how.
I mean, I no, no, I'm just saying.
These are, it's not an easy thing.
I really don't know where this is.
It's an easy thing to say.
It's not an easy thing to actually make happen.
You're right, Piers.
You're right.
But it's not impossible.
All right.
So I appreciate your time and letting me speak on this.
And thank you.
All right.
We've got to leave it there.
Thank you all to my panel.
Appreciate it.
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