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July 11, 2024 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
27:43
20240711_alec-baldwin-on-trial
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Time Text
A Bullshit Prosecution 00:03:10
This was a bullshit prosecution.
Do you still feel that now?
I do.
In fact, I feel it even more strongly.
He picked up the gun, he pointed it, and he fired it.
But negligence isn't enough to prove involuntary manslaughter.
If they can prove that he's lying about pulling the trigger, if I'm on that jury, I'm like, whoa.
I think he's super guilty.
He pulled the trigger.
The fact that he decided to trot out his infinitely fertile wife and his brain bunch and do all these shenanigans and act like someone hasn't died at his hands for me is disgusting.
This case would not have been re-filed after it was dismissed, but for the fact that it's Alan Faldworth.
They took a mallet to this gun so that the defense could not retest it.
Pierce, I would say only thing that can stop Alec Baldwin here is his own hubris.
I think he's going to testify.
I would not let him anywhere near that stand if I was representing him.
Alan Baldwin's 35-year career has landed him 14 major awards and an Oscar nomination.
They could end up with 18 months in jail.
The star is facing trial for involuntary manslaughter over the fatal shooting of cinematographer Helena Hutchins on the set of Rust, a movie he was producing and starring in.
Weeks afterwards, he gave this interview to ABC's George Stephanopoulos.
Well, the trigger wasn't pulled.
I didn't pull the trigger.
The gun was supposed to be empty.
I was told I was handed an empty gun.
If there were cosmetic rounds, nothing with a charge at all, a flash round, nothing.
I don't know how that bullet arrived in that gun.
I don't know.
But I'm all for doing anything that will take us to a place where this is less likely to happen again.
Well, the self-pitying PR tour didn't stop there.
Just a month ago, he was accused of a calculated attempt to sway the jury by releasing plans for this reality TV show, portraying him as a sympathetic family man.
Hi, I'm Ilaria Baldwin.
And I'm Alec Baldwin.
And we have an announcement to make.
Good gun, look.
No, definitely not.
We're done having kids.
This is a better show.
We're inviting you into our home to experience the ups and downs, the good, the bad, the wild, and the crazy.
We'll say we are the bolt.
We are the bald.
No, we are the Baldwins.
We're all going to say.
We are the Baldwins.
That's the same Alec Baldwin, of course, who likes to punch Paparancy for invading his privacy.
Well, with the movies Armor Already in Jail, Baldwin now has to convince a jury he doesn't belong there too.
Joining me now is the founder of TMZ, Harvey Levin.
Harvey, great to have you back on Uncensored.
You've said before on Fox, I think, that when the charges were dropped against Alec Baldwin originally last year, this was a bullshit prosecution.
Do you still feel that now that he's back in court?
I do.
In fact, I feel it even more strongly, Pierce, because yesterday, I got to tell you, Alec Baldwin won a huge victory and I think really undercut the prosecutor's case.
Actors Rely on Pros 00:05:16
Because remember, he was being tried for two roles, his role as an actor, the guy who fired the gun, and his role as an executive producer on the film.
I never thought that it was kosher to charge him for being an executive producer.
That's a vanity role for him, as you know, that they often have executive producers who are stars of the show, and they don't really get involved in the day-to-day production of a movie.
And that's what he was doing.
And the judge said, look, there are other executive producers on this show, on this film, and it's unfair.
It's too prejudicial to claim he's responsible when he wasn't really making those decisions.
So the judge said, look, you cannot present evidence to the jury that this was his responsibility as a producer.
The only thing you can do now is present him as an actor to the jury.
I think that really undercuts the case because actors rely on professionals.
They rely on the armorer.
And the armorer has already been found guilty of involuntary manslaughter.
So I think this is a huge win for Alec Baldwin.
I mean, the other way of looking at this is that ultimately he pulled the trigger and he's always trying to make out that actually the trigger didn't get pulled and this gun kind of fired itself.
No one seems to be buying that.
And I've also interviewed quite a few actors, Dennis Quaid recently and others, who've all said that they do think he has responsibility because he picked up the gun, he pointed it and he fired it and pulled that trigger and that he shouldn't have done that without knowing and being sure and having tested himself that there was no live ammunition in there.
What do you say to that?
Yeah, I mean, look, I get the point.
And I think it's negligent to point a gun and pull the trigger that way.
But negligence isn't enough to prove involuntary manslaughter.
There has to be some kind of showing of recklessness at the very least.
And I think Alec Baldwin's argument is simply, well, I mean, look, and he's not saying this.
He keeps insisting he didn't pull the trigger.
But even if he concedes that, I think he says, I made an assumption here, and I think it was a good one, that there was no live ammo because we have an armorer.
And yeah, you shouldn't pull the trigger, but if it's a blank, nobody's going to get hurt.
And I made that assumption that it was a blank.
And I think it's a good assumption.
And there are a lot of actors.
And I know you mentioned Dennis Quaid.
I think George Clooney has said the same thing, that he would check the barrel sometimes as well.
But there are a lot of actors and people in the Screen Actors Guild who say they rely on the armorer.
And so I just don't think it rises to that level.
And, you know, Piers, I've been around long enough and so have you, that you can never predict what a jury does.
But I feel like it's advantage Baldwin in this, especially because the armorer has already been convicted.
I mean, where is his career here?
He's played, I mean, I've written columns heavily criticizing him for kind of playing the victim, going on a victim tour of interviews, you know, weeping up and all the rest of it while this has been unresolved.
He's also announced a new reality show with his wife, Hilaria, and their kids, having protested about privacy and fought with paparazzi to protect his privacy and so on.
There's a lot always with Alec Baldwin, a lot of complexity and if not rank hypocrisy swimming around.
But what do you think happens?
If he gets acquitted here, how damaging has this all been to his career?
Does he get a reset if he's acquitted?
Yeah, I mean, I think if he's acquitted, that there will be the sense that, look, he didn't, well, he certainly didn't act criminally.
And I think that's the big issue now.
Even with this, I think, you know, I see a difference between this, which was not an intentional act on anybody's part, and something where, you know, there's, you know, domestic violence, for example, where somebody aggressively and intentionally, you know, commits a crime like that.
And I do think that, you know, that there's a fundamental difference there so that I don't think Alec Baldwin, you know, I hate even using this word because I despise it so much.
I don't think Alec Baldwin gets canceled for this kind of an accident.
But I think that if he is acquitted, you know, whatever his career was before, and I'm not sure he was in his heyday, I think it resets.
A final question.
Russ went back into shooting the movie.
They finished it.
Should it be released?
I mean, when someone is killed in these circumstances and there's a criminal trial, should that movie ever see the light of day?
You know, it's a good question.
And there is precedent here.
I mean, do you recall the Twilight Zone movie where the helicopter crashed into the body of water and decapitated Vic Morrow and the two child actors?
The Loaded Gun Defense 00:15:36
And that movie got released, obviously not with a scene.
So there is precedent for it.
I don't know what kind of an audience it has.
So I think that may be an even more fundamental question at this point.
But there have been, you know, we've covered them over the years, accidents where stunt people die, where even actors get injured or die, and the movie still gets released.
So it would not shock me.
I think maybe the bigger issue is, is there an audience for this movie?
Right.
I think that's a really interesting question.
Harvey, great to have you.
Thank you very much indeed.
My pleasure.
Well, join me now to discuss all this.
It's Lebride Lawyer Mark Garagos, the anti-lawyer lawyer, Byron Brown, host of Popcorn's Planet, Andy Signore, and the uncensored contributor, Esther Kraku.
Mark Garragos, let me just start with you.
I want to play a clip from an interview I did with Dennis Quaid, another Hollywood movie star, several weeks ago.
Listen to this.
He says he never pulled the trigger.
Well, you have to pull the trigger.
You have to, do you?
You have to pull the trigger.
That can't be true.
I mean, that's the only way a gun goes off is that you pull the trigger.
They don't just go off.
But it's was the, were they, were they actually filming or was he just playing around?
I think that he was supposed to pull the trigger because it's in the scene that, yeah, that's what I think.
Otherwise, why are you going to put a, you shouldn't even put a blank in that gun if you're not going to pull the trigger?
Because that's what it's for.
There's paper and stuff that comes out of the end of those guns that can actually hurt you, hit you in the eye or whatever.
And so I don't know.
That's a tough one.
It really is a tough one.
And in a way, I really have a lot of compassion for him because I know how that's where that has him, you know, and underneath.
And, but, you know, we've got to be a lot more careful about it.
Mark, how significant is Ali Baldwin's attempt to deny he ever pulled the trigger in this case he's now in court for?
Well, I will tell you that they may not admit it, but Alex Spyro, who's trying this case, I guarantee you, wishes that interview had never happened.
They did have quite a victory yesterday when the judge ruled that they cannot start talking about the theory of Alex as the producer of this film to attach liability to him because that was, frankly, from my standpoint, that was always one of the worst kind of things to defend against.
Once that's out and kind of all of the evidence that would have come in, the fact that he says I pulled or I didn't pull the trigger, they're going to try to shift that to the issue of I didn't know the gun was loaded.
I had no idea the gun was loaded.
And all of the other stuff that would have come in if he had remained liable as a producer, that's now excluded.
So I think he's got a, he's got a much better shot than he did.
But having said that, I guarantee you, if they could do it, if they had a redo, they would redo that interview.
Well, yeah, because it seems to me, if they can prove that he's lying about pulling the trigger, if I'm on that jury, I'm like, whoa, okay.
So he did pull the trigger.
And regardless of whether he meant to do it, I don't think anybody assumes he meant to do it.
But, you know, if he literally has now lied about this, I think that to a jury is quite a significant thing.
I do agree with you, though.
I think the fact that they've removed the producer liability is huge because I've written about this many times, that as a producer, he would be responsible for the overall safety also on set.
Finally, Mark, before we go to the other end.
Mind you, Pierce.
Sorry, go on.
I was just going to say, mind you, all of the evidence that would have come in under the guise of producer liability was awful.
And so now all of that is off the table and that makes it a more clear shot to defend against.
I thought you're going to have to stop using phrases like clear shot, Mark.
Thank you.
You did it twice.
I had to step in eventually.
We all do this.
You forget the language we use.
Esther, look, so far, Harvey Levin says he's pretty much on Baldwin's side with this.
Mark thinks legally the case has moved significantly towards Baldwin getting off because he's no longer liable as a producer.
But what do you think of him?
I don't think he has a good chance of getting off just because the argument that I didn't know was loaded, if I was a member of the jury, I don't think would wash because there is a reason why you don't handle, you can be charged for mishandling or misuse of a gun, which is one of the people on set was charged with.
I don't think this idea that because you didn't know it was loaded, whether or not he pulled the trigger, which he's saying that he didn't, I don't think that's a good enough argument.
I do think his conduct, though, has been very callous.
If I was an average member of the jury and I saw his reality show with this sort of new Brady Bunch thing that he's doing and him posting on Instagram three days after shooting this woman dead, whether he meant to do or not, about Halloween with his like 20 kids.
I just think there is a level of insensitivity there.
And that may be because he's completely acquitted himself of any responsibility.
But for me, that would speak to me that he's just trying to put on this facade and that actually there's a level of culpability there.
I think in the court of public opinion, he's not coming across very well at all.
And Andy Signal, I mean, the sheer brazen hypocrisy, frankly, of Alec Baldwin doing a reality TV show with his wife and kids after spending years throwing haymakers at Paparazzi who dare to invade the privacy of him and his wife and kids.
I do find that utterly breathtaking, even by the double standards of many celebrities.
Well, yeah, and don't forget she's a liar too.
How you say cucumber?
She's more than a little bit more.
Well, the whole fame Spanish accent is utterly ridiculous.
Yeah.
Yeah, the whole family is ridiculous.
Look, you're all right, but he's, yeah, I think he's completely guilty.
But this is just another proof of like wealthy, better lawyers win cases and they've just run rings around the state.
And I think, look, he's contradicted himself multiple times in his own testimony.
There was a point where he said, Dave Hall, the first AD, handed him the gun to Stephanopoulos.
And then to the cops before it was Hannah Guterres.
He's changed it multiple times.
He told the police, I fired the gun.
He told Stephanopoulos he didn't.
There's been so many different conflicts.
I can't believe someone's not going to be able to see it.
But at the same time, they destroyed the evidence.
I'm still blown away that they were hitting the gun with a mallet, the key piece of evidence before the defense had it.
And now he can't even look at it with his own team.
I think he's super guilty.
He pulled the trigger.
I think he's denying it because I think this is a serious thing.
When you take a life, you want to sort of say, I couldn't have done this.
I don't think he did it on purpose, but he absolutely did it.
And I think it's frustrating because he's just going to get away with it, I think.
Bar and Brown, I mean, what two-way celebrity status can't it?
You know, it can be that you can get the best lawyers and you can maybe get yourself off.
It can be that the case is only brought against you because of your celebrity status.
Are you in that second cam?
I'm definitely in the second camp.
I think this is a case where it's being tried in the court of public opinion.
And even from what we've heard so far from everyone on the panel, it goes against, hey, he's punching at paparazzis.
Hey, he doesn't look good filming his TLC show.
Okay, all of that is true.
But when it comes down to it under New Mexico law, they got to prove criminal negligence.
They have to prove that Alec Baldwin knew or should have known.
And regardless of that knowledge, he continued forward despite the safety and risk of others.
And they're not going to be able to prove that.
I think the argument here is that just by virtue of being an actor, that doesn't make you exempt from common sense.
You're playing pretend for a living.
You're not a child.
Holding a weapon, whether you think it's loaded or not, does not give you the right, at least the prosecution is contending, to act in a negligent way.
Look, I don't know the legalities of this.
He may very well be acquitted of this.
But I think most people have a natural revulsion because there's this kind of high and mighty attitude that a lot of actors have.
Oh, well, it's on set.
People should have handled it.
My assistants or my servants or my butlers should have been able to sort it out.
You're still an adult.
You still have some sort of liability.
I think if this was the average person, I don't think the courts would have been as generous.
And I think that's where the public really is.
Well, that's interesting.
Let me bring back Mark Garagos on that.
I mean, is that true, do you think?
If this was an ordinary member of the public, would it be a different standard applied here legally?
No.
Well, yes, there would be a different standard.
This wouldn't have been re-filed after being dismissed again.
I mean, I've often said, and I've represented a couple of high-profile people in the last couple of decades, that God saved me from so-called celebrity justice because you do not get the same level of kind of prosecutorial reserve.
This case would not have been re-filed after it was dismissed, but for the fact that it's Alec Baldwin.
And that's unfortunate for depending on your standpoint and where you're sitting, but that's the reality of it.
As mentioned, they took a mallet to this gun so that the defense could not retest it.
And that alone in most jurisdictions in front of most judges would have been enough to say game over.
The fact that they brought it again later, the fact that also, by the way, that they've convicted somebody who's in the chain, you know, you have a causation here.
You've got the armorer.
The armorer is the one that they previously argued has the responsibility here.
They've convicted the armorer.
They've sentenced the armorer to prison.
Now you're going to argue that it's not really the armorer.
It was the actor who's the next link in that chain.
So I think it's a heavy lift for the prosecution.
I mean, it's interesting that because they could both be culpable, right?
They could both be negligent.
The armorer for providing this loaded gun, but also the actor for not checking it.
I have been struck by the number of actors who said to me, they've never heard of someone not checking that the gun wasn't inadvertently loaded.
If you're doing a cowboy scene, a shooting scene, and there is ammunition around of any kind, almost every other actor I've talked to says we would have tested it.
So I think.
And he's not just an actor.
Sorry?
He's not just an actor.
He's a producer.
And I think that's why, as Mark said, the case is over.
I don't know how they lost that.
The fact that he's not being treated as an actor-producer, which he is.
He's a decades-old actor who knew better, has taken the safety multiple times.
I remember seeing him in the like so many movies that I love of Alec Baldwin.
I'm a fan of Alec Baldwin.
He knows better, and he knows better, especially because he's a producer.
And I'm shocked that Judge Summer sort of couldn't comprehend why he couldn't wear both hats.
Of course, as an actor acting and as a producer, you know, I can't do this again.
I'm doing it one take.
It doesn't matter if that's safe.
We can't afford this.
There's a million things going in Alex's head.
And so I think it's incredibly frustrating that that was thrown out because at this point, based on what we're hearing, yeah, Alec's going to create reasonable doubt.
And there's now enough reasons that they can't prove it with the gun being destroyed, with him not being a producer.
I would be shocked if he doesn't get away.
Pierce, I would say only thing that can stop Alec Baldwin here is his own hubris.
I think he's going to testify because he can't.
Well, that's what I was about to say.
Yeah, I mean, I'm going to ask Byron that.
I mean, if you were advising him, I wouldn't let Ali Baldwin anywhere near the witness stand, would you?
No, I wouldn't let him.
I think anything that he's proven to us in the media is that he's volatile.
You even heard statements made by lawyers who cross-examined him in the Stalker case and said that he felt he got under Alec Baldwin's skin very easy.
Now, if you take the stand in a case like this where people already have a negative opinion of Baldwin and he comes unraveled, which I think we all believe he would on the stand, that's going to severely hamper his case.
If not, sink his whole case just off of his testimony.
I don't see how he takes the stand in this case.
Mark, do you agree with that?
I mean, is there any upside in putting Baldwin on the stand?
An ability to talk directly to the jury, maybe?
I don't know any really good defense lawyer who ever makes the decision going in.
I mean, you are always going to be ready to put your client on the stand, but it's the toughest decision you make.
Ultimately, it's one of the only decisions that's up to the client.
I mean, the client's got the right to overrule you, and I've been in that situation.
I don't think they make the decision until they see, number one, what does this jury look like?
Because jury selection is going to be game over in this case.
I mean, depending on this is a, this is morphed not just celebrity, but it's also political in many ways.
And then you've got to see, does the prosecution, how much of his interview actually does or does not get into evidence?
Until they see that, until they see how the jury reacts to that, I don't think they make that decision.
And by the way, if it were me right now, I would be against it prior to selecting a jury.
Esther, I mean, the strange thing about this, the bottom line is you have a 42-year-old, beautiful young woman who was shot and killed by Alec Baldwin.
I mean, we can dance around the houses of how it came to be that that gun went off in his hands after he pulled the trigger, which I'm sure he did.
But he did fire the gun that killed this woman.
To have zero accountability for Alec Baldwin seems to me would be a travesty of justice, wouldn't it?
Absolutely.
And I think that's what would really make the public quite incensed.
I think it's a travesty that the weapon was destroyed.
And again, this is not me saying I want him to be found guilty or not guilty.
I believe the justice system is robust enough to do its job.
But I also find it peculiar that when he was crying about how stressful the situation has been, he didn't show any remorse for the woman that lost her life, which he was responsible for, whether he wanted to do it or not.
Just to be clear, I don't think he intended to murder that woman.
He just has no remorse.
He just has this very haughty attitude.
I've got to say, I have found his behavior sickening.
Shocking.
It's been entirely self-serving.
The unctuous Instagram post, the announcement before this is even over, that there's going to be a reality TV show from Mr. Privacy and his family that he wants to protect from the public media glaive.
I mean, all of it is ridiculous.
But very Ali Baldwin.
You know, this is what he's like.
He's a kind of unpredictable, disagreeable, volatile, temperamental hothead, quite happy to be rankly hypocritical.
But none of that, I guess, really matters in relation to this case.
Well, I think that could work against him, actually, his volatility, the fact that he's clearly doing a PR primp.
Well, it could try and make it.
Even if he testifies, I think.
And also all the inconsistencies he's come out with to various people he's talked to, the interviews, the police, and so on.
That could certainly backfire against him.
But of course, there's another side that as we saw with O.J. Simpson, a lot of juries, you know, can gravitate towards a celebrity if they like them.
Will He Pull It Off 00:03:39
We don't know the makeup.
They don't have that much cash.
As Mark said, the makeup of a jury is vitally important.
If you get a bunch of Ali Baldwin fans on there, then he walks.
All 10 of them, yes.
Unfortunately, I don't think he has that much cachet with the public.
Look, I just, for me, what I find the most horrifying of this whole thing has just been his attitude.
I think he has more money than God to just go under the radar and to let this whole thing blow over and to let the justice system do its work.
The fact that he's decided to trot out his infinitely fertile wife and his Brady Bunch and do all these shenanigans and act like someone hasn't died at his hands for me is disgusting.
Andy, where does all this leave, Alec Balbin?
I talked to Harvey.
He thinks it's a reset if he gets acquitted, that he just basically starts again.
But there's always a taint when you have something like this hanging over you that you can never fully get rid of.
Because at the end of the day, a woman is dead because of Alec Baldwin.
You can decide accountability any way you want.
As I said, in the end, the person who pulled the trigger actually calls to death.
Yeah, I mean, Hollywood's funny, right?
I never thought I'd have empathy for Alec Baldwin.
It took crackhead Barney to do it for me.
And as you achieve that person, that's what it takes, though.
Sometimes the craziest person come out of the woodwork and then suddenly make Alec Baldwin seem like a sympathetic figure.
I don't know.
I mean, I think of Kevin Spacey, too.
It's like all this stuff where you prove yourself, even prove your innocence.
Still, sometimes the public can decide to not support.
I think he has a right to this.
Obviously, if he wins, he should act again.
He was a good actor.
We have to just trust the system here.
And I think at some point, yeah, it's done.
It's done.
The audience will then get to decide whether to buy a ticket.
I think he needs to take some accountability even after this, which I hope he does.
The rush to make the movie as a tribute to Helena, which they did.
I imagine they're just sitting on it waiting for him to win.
And if they do, they'll spin that as a tribute to her and what have you.
And then he'll be able to sort of write this off as a part of the journey.
But yeah, I don't know.
It's always going to leave a bad taste in my mouth.
And I think it will for a lot of audience members as well.
Well, let me end by asking all of you to give a prediction.
Mark, is he going to get convicted?
Well, I will tell you, I'm old enough to remember, unless I'm having a TIA, that he's been to trial before in Los Angeles and he was acquitted many, many years ago in a case.
And I just do not see this as a conviction.
So I think the worst that'll happen is a hung jury.
Okay, Baron?
Yeah, I don't think they're going to be able to prove that he had the knowledge or should have had the knowledge.
I think him relying upon experts, especially the guidelines of SAG that requires an expert like an armorer to hand the gun and that didn't fall within the bailiwick of Baldwin himself.
I think those hurdles are going to be too much for the prosecution to overcome.
Andy?
Yeah, unless he messes it up on the stand, I think he's going to win.
But I don't think he's as bad of an actor as Amber Heard.
I think he's going to pull this off.
Esther.
I think he'll be found guilty.
I don't think any jury would reasonably think that an actor with his experience, who's won many accolades, would have just been so nonchalant with a weapon.
It wasn't a water gun.
He knew that it was an actual weapon that was capable of firing bullets.
I think he'll be found guilty.
I actually think he will too.
I think a jury may convict him.
We shall see, though.
It's going to be very interesting to watch and very interesting to see if he decides to take the stand.
As Mark says, you can leave that right to the end and just make that call then.
It'd be very, very interesting if he decides to do that.
I would not let him anywhere near that stand if I was representing him.
Thank you all very much.
We'll see how it plays out.
Thank you.
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