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July 5, 2024 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
57:48
20240705_pride-month-comes-to-an-end
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Pride Month Backlash 00:08:24
Well pack away your rainbow flags and leather chaps.
It is ironically safe to come out again.
Pride month is now over, but did this year's backlash outweigh the celebration?
We're going to debate this.
And my extraordinary head-to-head with Pink Floyd legend Roger Waters has divided the internet.
Also, we know what Hamas podcast on social media.
Calm down.
Roger.
Roger.
Calm down.
Is he a legend or a dangerous loom?
Is the Hawk Tour girls' stratospheric rise to global stardom a reflection of the West's moral and intellectual cage?
Huck Tour and spent all that thing.
Probably just taking it seriously.
And power slapping.
It's one of the fastest growing sports in the world.
I'll meet the viral female power slapping sensation known as the Hungarian Hurricane.
And I'll ask her one question.
Why?
Well, joining me to debate all that and more at the Piers' PAC.
Rapper and podcast host Zuby, activist and writer Eli Ehrlich.
And here in the studio, uncensored contributor Esther Kraken comedian and podcast host James Barr.
Well, welcome to you all.
Feels like years since I had you all together because it's so much happening in the world right now.
We're going to try and, I think, get to slightly different non-political issues, although everything in the end is politics.
And I want to start with a clip from Jon Stewart, who's back doing the daily show on Comedy Channel once a week.
And he said this about the commercialization of Pride.
Well, Target will be dialing back its Pride Month merchandise this June.
What?
How will I learn to live, laugh lesbian?
That's right.
Target is apparently less proud of Pride this year.
But why?
Retail giant Target is grappling with backlash from conservatives over its most recent collection celebrating the LGBTQ community.
Do not shop at Target or else you're gay and you're a pervert.
And he went on.
I mean, he made some very interesting points.
He talked about Burger King with their pride whopper made with two equal buns.
Stittles colourless Pride Pact declaring only hashtag one rainbow matters and an Oreo ad showing a family overcoming a father's deep conservative values with a rainbow painted fence.
And he said, that's the burden corporations must bear, he mocked.
They care almost too much about the human condition often finding themselves in the crosshairs of ideologues and fundamentalists, but they stand by their values, sometimes for a couple of months.
And that was a response to Target, who of course abandoned what they were doing after the backlash.
We saw the same thing with Bud Light and Dylan Mulvaney and so on, indicating it may all just be virtue signaling.
Zubi, let me start with you on this.
I've been on this case for quite a while that I think the pride, the whole idea of pride, I loved it when it started.
It was a pride day.
Great.
There are lots of days in the year and I can happily sign up to it.
Now it's like a full-on month and it's been completely hijacked by the corporate world in the most kind of shameless, insincere virtue signaling way.
Discuss.
Yeah, well, I think it's what I'd call woke capitalism.
I think if you go back to the time of Occupy Wall Street around 2008, there was a massive backlash both from people on the left side of the aisle and from the right side of the aisle about what we could truly call corporate greed.
And I think corporations noticed this.
And I think a lot of them made this pivot to appease their natural enemies or opponents, which is the true left.
And so I think by them throwing out these easy bones and virtue signaling about pride, virtue signaling about BLM or whatever else seems to be trendy, by the way, only doing this in nations where it is trendy, not doing this necessarily around the world.
I think that they have been able to essentially, while they've annoyed some people, they've been able to appease their natural enemies and keep those people kind of quiet and satiated.
So I think at a deep level, that is really what's going on.
Of course, we could also talk about, you know, ESG scores and things like that.
But I think that's actually the primary root of why they've been doing that type of pandering.
I think that's what it is at a deep level.
All right.
James Barr, would you agree with that?
I find it really surprising.
Oh, Eli.
Well, welcome to Uncensored Eli.
If you want to go first and jump in over James, be my guest.
In fact, I'm delighted.
Off you go.
Eli.
Yeah, absolutely.
So I actually am surprised I'm agreeing with you on this.
Corporations have very little interest in the queer and trans community.
I'm a queer trans woman.
I've seen them marketing to me more and more over the years.
And the moment, the very moment that we start becoming profitable, they drop us.
It's very clear what's happening.
And I'm on board with Jon Stewart on this.
They are just virtue signaling.
Yes.
A triple strike.
James Barr.
Because I completely agree.
Whoa!
I think so.
James Barr finally sees it.
I do just want to say I am wearing black today just to mourn Pride Month and also show respect for straight pride, which we're currently now in.
Here's the thing with the corporations.
I think sometimes they're doing it for their employees.
And that's really important.
I think it's amazing that some companies are when there's no straight month for the straight month.
Well, as we've discussed before, the rest of the year is straight peers.
You don't celebrate being straight.
You celebrate being straight all the time.
There are no straight parties for my straight month.
You're not speaking over a queer person.
There's no straight months.
I'm not sure if I'm doing being straight, literally right now.
And so it's important that companies do that and show their support for pride.
But a lot of the time it does feel insincere.
Actually, hang on.
I'll come to this for a minute.
Actually, why should companies do any of this?
When did it become this thing that companies feel the need to lasso themselves to endless causes or campaigns?
It never used to happen.
When I buy a beer, I don't care that the beer company wants to put a rainbow flag out there to signal their virtue, particularly as they won't be doing it in the Middle East, where homosexuality is largely illegal, or in large swathes of Africa, or in places like that.
So there's a hypocrisy and double standard with these global companies where they'll only do it in places where actually it's easy.
Well, it's crumbs, isn't it?
They're just giving us crumbs.
Unfortunately, they're motivated by the people that work in the companies.
It's not because of some great outcry from the company.
I think sometimes it is to do with the people that work at the company.
Well, it's not all the time.
But the company is the case.
Companies always want to look good when they're not paying people enough money or whatever.
Well, I mean, that's a side issue.
But like, look during BLM.
I was getting emails from ice cream companies telling me how proud that they are that I'm black.
First of all, how do they even know that?
And secondly, how is that relevant?
I think this idea that they can get away with doing pride flags in countries where it's not illegal, but then you see KFC not doing that in India or in sub-Saharan Africa is ludicrous.
And it actually shows the moral depravity in these companies.
Well, it reminds me, actually, it reminds me of the Just Stop Oil protesters.
You never see the Just Stop Oil protesters in China or India or Russia, where almost all the pollution is actually going on.
So they don't dare do it where it's difficult.
They just do it where it's easy pickings.
They go and attack the Chelsea flower show or a cricket match or a football.
Well, is that not a particular organization based in Britain?
Is that why we're not seeing just stopping?
Actually, no, they've got global aspirations.
All right, Greta Thunber, right?
When does Greta Thunberg, when do you ever see her in places like China or Russia?
Oh, of course.
She doesn't live in those countries.
But if you think about it, but she goes to America, she tries to bully them.
Peter Tatchell, she wouldn't dare do it in places where actually it would take real courage.
That's my point.
Other activists have done that.
Peter Tatchell has bravely.
Peter Tatchell has.
I think he's one of the exceptions.
Normally, a lot of these protesters for a lot of these causes don't actually have moral courage.
What they do is take the easy shot for attention and headlines.
And to me, and I'm quite glad we've reached a sort of general agreement on this because I just think it really devalues to me.
Trans Athlete Fairness 00:12:46
If I was a trans person, and I'm not going to speak for you, Eli, or any trans people, but none of this helps being a trans person to me.
All it does is kick up cultural war after cultural war.
I would love to.
That is so rich coming from you.
So I would love to see them give transport raises.
That would actually be doing something to help us.
Say that again.
I would actually like to see them give their workers better wages.
That would help us a hell of a lot more than slapping a rainbow flag on some of their products and trying to sell it to markets and that's not really helpful.
Right.
So actually do things which can forge genuine equality and fairness for trans people, which is what we should all aspire to get, right?
Exactly, exactly.
I mean, on that point, though, given you've not been on censored before, we've debated this a lot with other guests, particularly James.
How do you feel?
Given that trans people want fairness and equality, how do you feel about the issue of trans athletes in women's sport, given that it's so obviously to me and many other people unfair and unequal?
Oh, here we go.
Well, let's leave it to the experts.
The different associations have agreed on different standards for different sports.
It's all very relative.
A recent study actually found that we're too harsh on trans people in sports and require too much, too long of a transition to a point where the equivalent cisgender person would be at a disadvantage.
So it's complicated.
It needs to be drawn out by the actual sports authorities rather than politicians or pundits.
So if a six foot five inch, 230 pound biological male boxer puts their hand up and says, I would like to compete in women's boxing, would you be happy with that?
There are six foot five, 300 pound cis women too.
Can they not compete?
They don't have the same physiology as a biological male.
They don't have the same lung capacity.
They haven't got the same muscle mass.
No, they haven't.
This is the whole point of the debate: it's not just about taking less testosterone.
You have an, as Caitlin Jenner has articulated very well, you have an inbuilt, superior physiological advantage over biological females.
That's the problem.
Now, I want transformations.
Not necessarily.
Estrogen.
Look, estrogen absolutely wreaks havoc on our muscular systems, on our ability to perform in sports.
And there's a reason that the rules are so strict because it does greatly affect our capacity to participate.
Well, we'll disagree.
I think this is where a lot of the backlash against the so-called trans community comes from.
Because, you know, we all agreed on that first point that this is pandering and this is companies trying to make money and so on.
But when people start coming to arguments about biological males competing in female sports, and by the way, notice the conversation only happens in one direction and there's a specific reason for that.
Nobody is concerned about men's sports or boys' sports.
And that is because we're biologically different.
And I just think that this is the reason why this conversation has raged on for so long.
It's these type of ridiculous, frankly, demands that affect women, affect half of the population, particularly those who play sports.
And that's where people just get lost.
And I think that's where a lot of the backlash or resentment actually is stemming from.
I think in the West, most people at this point are...
I don't think that most of this...
Go ahead.
I don't.
Well, I'm going to go.
I'm the only trans person here.
This isn't about sports.
It's about a gateway for the right to begin banning trans people from the music.
I'm not right-wing.
That's not true.
I'm not right-wing.
So how do you figure that?
No, you certainly have right-wing views on trans folks.
I don't have right-wing views on trans folks.
I've just said to you, I've just been fighting.
Hang on, I want trans people to have fairness and equality and the same human rights as everybody else.
And even if you consider yourself on the right, there's still a gateway into banning trans people.
No, I don't want to facilitate that.
I would like trans people to have, to either compete against their own biological sex, which seems to me the easiest thing to do, or they compete in a new section altogether of trans athletes.
What's wrong with that?
So a new separate but equal league is what you're saying.
Can I jump in here?
The solution for this is very simple.
And we've had the solution as far as I know for about a century.
And this is simply to have an open sports league and a female-only sports league.
A lot of what people call men's sports is not even explicitly men's sports.
Anyone is allowed to participate, but because of the biological and physiological advantages men have, if you take the fastest, the strongest people in the world, the best endurance, they're all going to end up being men.
That's how it's going to stack up, which is why if you want females to be able to participate in sports, you need to have a separate league because they can't compete in any other way.
I completely agree.
I agree.
Let's move on though, because there's another part of Pride I wanted to talk to you about.
I'll start with you, James, on this.
There is a suggestion that it's jumped the shark.
And the reason for that, and we've got some examples of this, in Seattle, a convoy of completely naked bike riders and roller skaters had some questioning, just how family-friendly the event was.
You've got kids there watching this.
In San Francisco, Pride had a fetish zone where a man lying in an inflatable pool of urine where attendees were encouraged to urinate on him.
Other booze featured participants getting spanked, whipped, and initiating sex acts on each other, all in public.
And in Toronto, New York, the politics of Palestine and Israel took over with queer, as they called themselves, protesters preventing the parade from progressing along its designated route by sitting in the middle of the road.
So a lot of people saying that it's going too far.
Now, James, I would say it does go too far when people do that.
I mean, if you want to actually make Pride a family thing, which many people want it to be, how can you allow that kind of stuff?
You've given me a lot to respond to there, Piers.
I would say in Germany right now at the Euros, there are English fans walking around with their dicks out, pissing in the street.
I think if you go to Sweden, there are naked people everywhere, like in saunas, and it's completely fine.
You're comparing the fans.
Now there's a naked bike ride in London very regularly and kids walk past that naked bike ride.
What you're doing is you're trying to make this a massive war against queer people, but actually this is just all people.
And in San Francisco, where some of those people were naked at Pride recently, it's actually legal to be naked in events like that.
So if you're taking your children to that, then that's on you.
That's not on the queer community.
And as I said, this isn't just queer people.
This is all people.
I think you touched on a point that all sort of movements can devolve to become a congregation of the mentally unwell.
Yes, that is fine.
But each community has to be naked.
You're mentally unwell if you're walking out in public naked.
Why is that mentally unwell?
Because you're mad.
So why are you naked in Sweden?
Have clothes in your house in corners.
Is that mentally unwell?
Yeah, I think if you're leaving your house.
Just because you have shame about your body.
Yes, I have shame.
I'm sorry.
I was raised properly.
I have shame.
I don't leave my house naked.
I was raised properly.
I have shame.
I have shame.
I have a sense of shame.
I don't think that it's all about me and what I want.
I actually think of the people.
Well, here's the thing.
Here's the point.
You made a significant point, which is that there is a tendency for all movements to devolve into some sort of congregation of the mentally unwell, which is fine.
That's literally not what you're saying.
I'm finessing what you're saying.
But the point here is that every group must take responsibility for the people within their own enclave, right?
You don't expect us to tell these people that are getting naked in the name of pride to tell them to put on.
But they're not breaking the law.
It's disgusting.
We are breaking this law.
That's not making it.
Hang on.
It's literally not.
Hang on.
It is not.
Let me bring in Eli on this.
Eli, is there a line that pride has crossed?
As some people say, I mean, Jordan Peterson said about all this.
There's a real tinge of narcissism, sexual narcissism about the whole prize spectacle.
Do people have the right to express their sexuality?
That is really cold.
Let me finish his quote.
Do people have the right to express their sexuality the way they see it to some degree if it's consensual and among adults?
But generally, among human beings with any degree of civilized comportment whatsoever, it's a pretty damn private affair.
Has he got a point, Eli?
No, he doesn't.
It's Jordan Peterson.
He never has a point.
He's a very smart.
Was clearly demarc for adults.
And I mean, personally, I was friends with some of the protesters that blocked New York City Pride.
And what they're doing is blocking the human rights campaign Float, which is sponsored by Raytheon, who's currently committing genocide in Gaza.
So they had their reasons for this.
And there needs to be more context for all of these.
On a broader level, we're not responsible for every member of our group.
This is how the right latches on to our different identity categories and our different social movements to try to demonize all of us for the actions of a few that might be a little bit of a problem.
What about those who are not on the right, Eli, like me?
I'm not on the right.
Do you do that to people on the right?
I'm the liberal who just sees endless acts of self-harm by the trans lobby when actually I'm with you.
I want you to get fairness and equality, but I don't want you eroding other people's lives.
You keep on saying this, and yeah, your actions speak differently.
What actions?
What action?
I'm trying to get trans people banned from sports, comparing transportation.
I don't want them banned from sports.
Hang on, don't worry about it.
I don't want trans people banned from sports.
I want them to be disallowed from competing against biological women.
Different thing.
I want them to be able to compete with people.
With people of their own gender.
Or their own sex.
They should compete with people of their own sex.
I think I just said I had a competition.
That is exactly the type of talking point that in 20 years we're going to be looking back at and regretting.
Really?
So you think in 20 years' time in the Olympics?
To be clear, then, in the Olympics, you would have just, well, open Olympics.
Open state.
Sex is irrelevant.
Gender irrelevant.
Everyone just competes against each other.
Absolutely.
I would too.
Really?
So do you understand that?
Well, everyone just can.
Eli, do you understand that by doing that, you literally end the Olympics?
It's all over because only men would win.
Do you understand that?
That's why we separate them.
I don't want to take this down.
But hang on.
I want Eli to respond.
You literally are destroying the Olympics for anyone who's not a man.
Well, that's a very grandiose vision of it.
Not really.
Not really.
If you look at the times and the results of men Olympians against women Olympians, you will see that in almost, I think, 98% of all the events, men are so far ahead of women on speed, on power, and everything, every other discipline.
Women's money.
And that's why we get separated by the people who are in the world.
Women would never win a medal again at the Olympics if you had your way.
Is that what you want?
That's very sexist.
No, no, it's a...
Hang on, it's not sexist.
Hang on.
Hang on, James.
I'll come to you.
It is not sexist.
It is a fact.
It's why we separate the sexes.
When Megan Rapino finished her career playing the soccer team, American women's soccer team, she then said that she'd be happy to see a trans woman competing in the women's team, right?
Which is fine, because it wouldn't take her place.
But if you allowed trans women, football players, soccer players, to compete, and enough of them began to do this, there would be no biological women left in the women's national soccer team because they would be physically superior.
You already have the right to do that, and you're not seeing the results that you say you would be seeing.
Yeah, but you see, you and James both have this wonderfully quaint notion that if you open up the Olympics for everyone, that women would continue to win medals.
They wouldn't.
They'd win nothing.
Obviously, this is complicated, Pierre.
It's all complicated.
It's not.
It's not complicated.
It's why we separate them.
Literally, when Megan Rapino's national conversation played the Dallas under 50.
They lost 8-2.
The conversation.
They were under 15-year-old boys.
The first woman to swim the English channel, the first woman to do that, beat the men's record by over two hours.
Slapping Skills Debate 00:11:36
He slowed down.
He was trying to hit on her.
Hang on.
All right, let's move on.
This is actually on the same kind of subject because I'm going to bring in a guest and have a little chat with them and then come to the panel.
Power slapping is said to be the fastest-growing sport on the planet.
For those of you who haven't witnessed it, this is what it is.
She's a category.
Well, Sheena Bathory, aka the Hungarian Hurricane, has been signed by PowerSlap CEO Dana White and joins us now from Budapest.
Well, welcome to you, Hurricane.
Hello, thank you so much for the opportunity.
Do you like being called Hurricane?
Yeah, you can come here, Hurricane.
Now, this is an incredibly fast-growing popular sport, but it really involves just slapping your opponent as hard as possible.
What made you take it up?
I went to United States three years ago, so I was happy for any opportunities.
And I thought that this sport is going to suit me because I was very aware of my power and I was trying.
I was definitely want to try out.
When did you first start slapping people?
Besides the competition.
Yeah.
It's like in your life.
I mean, presumably you've done it before and got a taste for it.
When was that?
Who were you slapping?
It was in my past relationship.
Yeah.
That was the first time I had to experience this.
With a man or a woman, if you don't mind me asking was a man, yes.
You started slapping around your boyfriend.
No, actually, he started slapping me first.
And then I...
Yes, it was a bit violent relationship.
And yeah, at the end, I had to give it back.
So this is how I'm going to be able to do that.
So actually, listen, I don't want to trivialize what...
So what you're saying is you were in a relationship with domestic abuse.
This man was slapping you in a domestically abusive manner.
Yes, that's correct.
And you then began to defend yourself by slapping him back.
Yes.
Wow.
And then the relationship ended?
Yeah, later, and that's when I earned the courage to get out from.
Yeah, well, obviously, that is very so.
I didn't know that part of your story.
And obviously, it's very serious.
But interesting that when you went through this of self-protecting in the way that you were defending yourself, out of that, you realized that, well, you were quite good at it.
Yeah, I think it was a good experience.
I'm not really you regretting it that I had to go through on it because the power slap came for a reason in my life, and I would say that I'm just investing in it, my past experience.
So I don't regret everything what I went through on.
Now, you're the most famous power slapper in the world now.
What does it take to be a good power slapper?
What's the skill set?
We are still working on the training plan, how to become the best.
I think my strength is coming from my judo background, and currently I'm training in MME.
And I think also it's my nature.
So my father was my judo coach.
He's a very extremely strong man.
I grew up on the farm, so I always had to work really hard, like physical hard work.
So I think maybe that's what gives me the good strength-based basement.
Now, I want to show a clip.
This is from men's power slapping.
Let's take a look.
Now, that looks really violent.
Do you ever compete against men, or is it strictly sex separate?
If I have to compete against men.
Do you ever compete against men or do they keep the two sexes separate?
Obviously, I have to compete only against women.
However, I offered for Frank because it's getting very popular in the United States that men are competing against female, that I'm okay to compete against men as long as they are making the same weight as I do.
And how would you feel about a trans woman competing in the women's side?
I'm absolutely against it.
They still have different chromosomes, even though they are dressing up as a woman, they are still a man.
But if they want to compete against me, I'm facing, but I don't think that it's fair against a woman.
You think that they would just be more powerful generally?
Absolutely, yes.
Like, yeah, that's their genitive.
They're just naturally stronger.
How, I mean, it looks very violent.
But it looks very violent, but you are in the end slapping each other.
I mean, how much does it hurt?
I mean, do you suffer bad injuries from this?
Of course, it comes with some serious injuries sometimes, especially when some people going up like three by three slaps.
Me personally, I feel concussion after getting slapped, but you can ask my opponent what they felt after being slapped or get killed.
Because I think after getting knocked out, we definitely have to take months to completely recover from it.
How many women have you knocked out?
Two.
Really?
And does that bother you or not?
Yes.
Honestly, I don't like to hurt without reason.
But I appreciate the opportunity.
And I think we are both agreed to be slapped.
So we know the rules.
And since it goes under the agreement, I try not to feel guilty to slapping them.
But I feel more comfortable if I'm getting slapped first because it's a trigger for me.
And then after I'm getting slapped, it's a little bit easier for me to give my full power for the next lap.
And listen, you're one of the biggest stars of this.
How much money are you making?
A lot?
I think it's relative.
For me, it's good because I'm coming from Hungary and Hungary is not the richest country.
I have a huge family.
So I appreciate everything.
So in this case, I think it's a good opportunity.
Well, Sheena, thank you very much.
Thank you very much for joining me.
I didn't know the backstory as to why you got into this, which was fascinating.
And good luck with your career.
It looks like you're one of the biggest stars of one of the fastest growing sports in the world.
So thank you for joining me.
Thank you so much.
It was a pleasure to talking to you.
Well, I've got my panel back now.
Zubi, what do you make of that?
I mean, it's a, listen, is it any different really to boxing and these other contact sports of that nature?
Do you feel weird watching it?
Yeah, I think it's sadistic.
I'm not a fan.
Look, if people want to do that and they consent to it and sign all their waivers and whatever, then of course, they're welcome to do it.
I'm just generally worried about where our society and culture is heading in the West when people are paying big money to see women stand there and knock each other out.
I think the big difference with something like boxing or MMA is you can't defend yourself, right?
You're just standing there.
You're just a standing target.
And it's just how hard a hit can you take.
I have no idea how many injuries they've had so far.
I know it's a relatively new, quote-unquote sport.
But I see something pretty tragic happening with this.
I think it's going to be inevitable.
And I think the fact that you can't even defend yourself, I think that's a very significant factor that changes it from other types of content.
I think that's my opinion.
I think that's a really good point.
I mean, James, I know I've looked at you sometimes, but it's quite clear you've wanted to give me a good slap, but what do you make of all this?
I'm deeply upset by that story, actually.
About the reason she got into it.
Yeah, I've also been in a violent relationship, but I didn't hit back.
I just took it.
But I've written a comedy show about it.
And I suppose that is me hitting back, right?
And it's interesting how trauma plays out like that.
We can experience things and then recycle them.
And that's what I'm doing in Edinburgh this summer.
I think that's what Sheena is doing in the power slap.
But I agree with what you just said.
Like, is it okay?
There's no way to defend yourself.
I don't know if I enjoy that as a sport because there is no way to defend yourself.
It's really about how much pain you can.
And then hearing why that's happening and how she wants to go first because it's a trigger for her is deeply upsetting and quite traumatizing.
Because you think it basically all goes back to what she told you.
Absolutely.
She's living that still.
And that's how important it is to talk about domestic violence and abuse openly, like she is doing right there and like I'm doing.
We have to talk about it so that we can try and end that cycle.
So I have so many follow-up questions that I'd love to ask her.
It's sort of beautiful what she's doing, but also kind of horrifying.
Yeah, Esther, what do you think of it?
recipe for brain damage.
I can't imagine even training for that.
Seriously, the time span you can even be in that career must not be more than a few years because you will literally suffer the consequences for the rest of your life.
I don't think you can enjoy watching it.
Yeah, I mean, yes.
Even watching these few clips we're showing, it's just very odd.
And also, I do think, Zubi, I hit the net on the head, really.
If there's no capacity to self-defend at all, what are you left with?
You're left with just acts of brutality, undefended.
There's no skill involved.
So you can't actually say that.
Well, I think that there may be a skill in how you slap.
So it's not skill devoid.
Presumably, the ones who are really good at it, like her, have a particular technique of slapping.
It's brutal strength, isn't it?
It's just Brutus strength.
But if, I'm going to bring in Eli, I mean, what do you think of this, Eli?
I mean, she made a point about the trans aspect of this.
I would not want to see many large biological male trans female power slappers.
I have to say, slapping women, would you?
If your muscle mass is the same and it's the same weight, I don't see any issue.
I mean, the whole sport is very uncomfortable, but if everyone is consenting, I don't see any problem.
Tribalism and Facts 00:08:26
Okay, that's interesting.
You don't care that they can't defend themselves.
If, I mean, I think you all have some points with it's concerning that men might be watching women beat the shit out of each other, but at the same time, like if these women are getting paid, treated well, and consenting to this, then they have that right to participate.
Okay.
I interviewed Roger Waters.
Now, he is one of the biggest rock stars in modern times.
He was one of the founders of Pink Floyd.
He's made, you know, nearly a billion dollars from being a Pink Floyd writer, guitarist, superstar.
Also, has come out a lot of very inflammatory things.
And it was an extraordinary interview, which ended up with him at one stage actually talking to himself.
But Zubi, what I was interested about with this was I was struck by a vast amount of comments.
And what it really said to me was on issues like Israel, Palestine, on Israel's like Ukraine, Russia, on issues like Trump, Biden, whatever, Brexit here.
We've now reached a point where people are so embedded in their tribes, for want of a better phrase, on any of these issues that they are simply not interested in hearing anything factual from the other side that may counter whatever they're saying.
That we've reached a point when simply standing by your tribe in its entirety, to the extent that Roger Waters at one stage was denying that a baby had been kidnapped, for example, by Hamas, because he hadn't had independent evidence to suggest it when everybody knows that story is true and so on.
But again, it comes back to the society we now live in.
How worried are you about this tribalism now really completely enveloping an old-fashioned sense of, well, let's get to the truth and facts here.
People don't simply care.
Yeah, I mean, I haven't seen that specific interview, Piers, but I think that rising tribalism has been a concern for a lot of people, both in the UK and in the USA and perhaps further than that, over the last 10 years in particular.
I think this is really the default human state.
I mean, tribalism is just something that exists within human nature.
It's not inherently bad or inherently good, but it can get to a very toxic level.
And I think if there are not certain rules and ideas that people can agree on, for example, no matter how much people disagree, we will not physically harm each other, right?
No violence.
When those lines start getting crossed, then that's when things can quite literally become homicidal, let alone genocidal.
And it's something that's within us.
It's a dark part of our nature.
And it's something that we always need to be careful of.
I think it's important to allow people to speak freely.
And things can get passionate.
Things can get heated and fiery.
But I just think there are certain lines we all need to agree as a society, as a culture, as nations that we do not cross no matter how fiery it gets.
Yeah, and one of those should be Esther anti-Semitism.
This is a clip from that interview where he tried to justify some of his positions on this.
You can say anything that you want, but there's no evidence.
But actually, there is extensive evidence.
There is no evidence.
Sexual assault and rape.
Well, there is.
Okay, well, all right, now.
Also, we know what Hamas podcast on social media.
Calm down.
Roger.
Roger.
Calm down.
Don't sink to this level.
All right, I won't.
What level?
But stop shouting.
Stop shouting back.
Let him interrupt you as much as you want.
Okay.
Sorry, Piers, what were you saying?
I mean, I thought that was completely insane.
Yeah, that's a very interesting thing.
I've never ever had a guest, even on these panels, who's just literally broken off the talk.
So what is he on, and how do I guess him?
But look, I think this is why it's important to have free speech and to let people talk, because people can listen to that and they can form their own conclusions.
If someone like that, if you say, oh, let's just cancel him, let's never platform him, let's not speak to him.
No, I agree.
Especially when they think Esther's so many followers, as he does, so many fans around the world.
I think it's important to shine a light on them and challenge them on these views.
He's very rarely been challenged.
He doesn't really do interviews where people challenge him.
And then suddenly he was having to be challenged about not just Israel-Palestine, but also Ukraine, Russia, and other issues.
And every time I sort of cornered him about something, he would start talking to himself or distracting or doing something to get away from it.
But it was a really like interesting response I got.
I would say for everyone who was saying, well, he's a lunatic.
It was his madness.
There were other people cheering him on.
Like this was the most perfectly normal thing that ever watched.
And he had a point.
Yeah, but this is the nature of tribalism.
You don't really take a person in their entirety.
You take soundbites that they say that you necessarily agree with as a member of that tribe and then you run with it.
So when you do in-depth interviews and you let them speak, they expose themselves.
And so you actually force members of that tribe to question themselves and their own beliefs.
I think the issue, particularly with tribalism that we're seeing these days, is the people, the leaders, the thought leaders in our society are never willing to own up to when they're wrong.
And if us as individuals are expected to constantly reflect on the positions that we hold and actually say, actually, I'm happy to change my mind, as a mature adult would do that's capable of rational thinking.
Why don't we expect the same from these thought leaders that amass huge followings that somehow influence public conversations on really important issues?
So I think this was a job well done.
Interesting, he quoted the fact that his mother had said to him, James, you know, you've got to read, read, read.
So I read, read, read, he said, and then I've worked out, you know, how to be right effectively.
And I said, well, has it crossed your mind that your idea of being right might actually be wrong?
And he looked completely bemused at this whole notion.
But when I asked him what he'd read, for example, about the history of Israel and Judaism and so on, nothing.
So it's not like he's reading everything to reach an informed opinion.
He's only reading stuff that validates and confirms his initial thoughts about stuff.
That's not how a democracy works effectively.
I guess you're interviewing him like he's a politician.
Yeah, which interview isn't necessarily going to get the result you want because really he's just coming at it as a human, a human, and saying, like, I don't want people murdered.
I don't want a genocide, which I think we can probably all agree with.
But yet you're coming at it from a journalistic point of view.
I think that's valid because the position that we now put celebrities in is basically on par with politicians.
We've stopped differentiating between a singer who has a million dollar hundreds of millions of dollars in the bank that lives a completely different life from the average person to a politician that actually affects policy.
We now put them on the same level and we treat the opinions of Katie Perry-Riana about who we should vote for as the same as someone who's actually in politics, who's educated, who works in political politics.
That's the problem.
Well, they reckon if Taylor Swift came out and backed a candidate in the election, that candidate would win.
Exactly.
And that's true.
Because she's such an enormous phenomenon.
I mean, Eli, should celebrities, entertainers, singers, whatever, should they just stay out of politics?
Or should everyone be allowed to have their opinion, even if they have a lot of followers and can influence impressionable young minds?
They should.
I mean, they're entitled to their opinions, but they shouldn't be brought on as experts on any particular subject that they're not.
It's, I mean, I'm an academic.
It's frustrating to see singers giving opinions about trans issues when they might not be informed or like the Israel-Palestine conflict that they don't really have an investment in.
Now, I agree with Roger here on most of his points, but the way that he presented it, he was clearly very uninformed and didn't really know what he was talking about.
But it seemed to me, it was a little bit more insidious than that, is that he was very uninformed about anything on the other side.
He was extremely well informed about anything that was supportive of Palestine, but he was deliberately, in my estimation, deliberately ill-informed about anything to do with supporting Israel about any of it.
And I've been critical of Israel on many things, but the one thing you can't be critical about or skeptical about are the people who were kidnapped, because we all know who they were and who's been brought back and who is probably dead and who's still unaccounted for.
These shouldn't be things we should argue about or question as he was doing.
I haven't seen the evidence.
Double Standards in Speech 00:07:26
You don't need to.
Yeah, there's a genocide happening and we have facts on our side for Palestinian liberation.
We don't need to deny or make up alternative facts, as the Trump administration would say, to make our point.
We already have these truths on our side.
So it doesn't really make any sense for him to say, deny the kidnappings.
That happened.
That's a fact.
And he should embrace it.
Yeah.
And actually, it makes things you then say more powerful if you're prepared to accept certain undeniable facts, even if it's not what you think is pro your side.
The next thing we're going to cover, which is the hawk toi girl.
Now, for those who haven't followed this phenomenon.
You've got to do it properly, Piers.
How do you say?
Huck troph.
Oh, God.
Let's take a look at the original clip, which has gone viral around the world and made this girl very famous or infamous.
Let's take a look.
What's one move in bed that makes a man go crazy every time?
Ah, you got to give him that huck tune.
Spit on that thing.
I don't get you.
I think you got to demonstrate.
Huck tunes.
Spit on it.
Spit on it.
I believe what she's referring to, Zubi, is oral sex.
Let's not dance around the houses here.
What's interesting has been the reaction.
She's become a celebrity very, very quickly.
Shaq O'Neill was hanging out with her.
Country music stars had her on stage.
She's giving big interviews.
This goes back to what you were saying about where society is going.
You know, Andy Warhol warned that one day everyone would be famous for 15 minutes.
Are we now living that dystopian life?
Yeah, we are.
And, you know, Piers, I know these stories are particularly selected, but it's all just degeneracy, ultimately.
I'm not here trying to be some type of killjoy or Bible thumper or something.
Like, I enjoy fun and entertainment as much as most people do.
But I just think as a culture, we need to be, it's just odd what we are celebrating and perhaps also what we're not celebrating.
It seems like we're kind of in this rush to the bottom.
So I don't have super strong feelings about this.
I just think it's reflects.
I think it's just a reflection of where we are as a society that it's managed to gain this level of steam and this much monetization and this much attention.
I think in a more sane time or in a more sane world, it would have been a couple of chuckles and some memes online, and then it would just sort of quickly move on to something more important.
I mean, you made a good point.
You tweeted.
I was just thinking, hawk toi is the type of thing that would have been a massive sensation in the fictional version of the USA depicted in idiocracy.
And then it hit me.
And I thought that was spot on.
It's like, really, that's where things are heading, right?
Fueled by social media, which makes everybody famous when they do dumb stuff.
Yeah, it's just where we are.
And look, I know nothing about this young lady besides this situation, but I don't know how she's going to handle this, but it's probably not the thing you want to be sort of labeled as and known as for the rest of your lifetime.
And that's easily what it could be.
There are people who have just been turned into memes at this point and they kind of live with that for the rest of their life.
And I don't think it's a great situation to be in, but I guess we'll see how that works.
Particularly as a woman.
I know like probably every guy on this panel is not wanting to say it, but it's crass and it's tacky and it's classless.
And I think us normalizing women, I mean, I wouldn't have answered that question, quite frankly.
I mean, it was all those things.
I think it's completely unladylike.
I have to be honest.
I'm not going to lie.
When I watched it, it did make me laugh.
I mean, it was outrageous.
It was crass.
It was all those things.
It was also funny.
I mean, I don't want us all to lose, as a society, our collective sense of humor about what is just a ridiculously outrageous, funny moment.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, but I think there's something that would be said about women not feeling like they have to behave in the way that male comedians do to be funny.
Like, you don't have to be crass as a female to be funny.
Okay.
She's not a comedian.
Why do we have to withhold ourselves then?
Say that again, Eli?
Should we have to put ourselves to a higher standard than the male comedian?
Well, funny enough, if a man had said something about a woman.
Well, if a man had said something similar about a woman, I don't think it would have got the same traction.
I think that man would have been cancelled pretty quickly.
And I think probably you, Eli, and you, James, would have led the cancellation charge for this disgusting, misogynist rat bag saying something disgusting about women.
So there is a double standard, but not said anything disgusting for men.
There is a double standard.
No, but if a man does that kind of thing.
Well, I do.
I often do it.
To do a hook to women.
To do a hook to her to women.
No, I'm not straight, so no, but I'm sure you've...
I don't understand why everyone is clutching their pearls today.
Because it's gross.
She's unladylike.
She's free.
She's just living her sexuality.
There's nothing wrong with just being yourself.
I do think that's a valid point.
I feel about that.
It's a valid point.
I do.
There's nothing wrong with this.
And the reason it's fine for her to do it is because she's not embarrassed.
She doesn't have any shame and she's happy.
That's a problem.
We used to have shame in society.
We used to regulate people's behavior.
We used to have shame.
Yeah, go back to the Victorian times, Esther, if that's what you want to do.
Because I'm sorry.
Women had more self-respect.
I'm sorry.
You don't need to.
Women have more self-respect.
A man happy is to spit on his penis.
Well, there was a fight.
Sorry, what?
There wasn't.
Would you rather she said, oh, cook him dinner.
I'm not answering that question because it's none of your business.
If I can just jump into Carlton.
She did appear on a podcast and she was asked if she would hawk to it.
Hook to Donald Trump or not.
This is how she replied.
Donald Trump.
No, absolutely not.
No.
It's a no from me.
What was interesting was people completely misconstrued that clip and thought she was talking about whether she would vote for it.
Right.
And so everyone on the conservative right, led by that goon, what's her name, Laura Loomer, went after this girl and started abusing her.
Haley Welsh, her name is called her a Biden supporter.
Blah, blah, blah.
It's actually nothing to do with any of that.
She was actually talking about Hawk Toi.
I've said people I would not vote for.
So those two things we have a bit of music to go with the hawk toi.
Let's have a look at whatever it is.
Oh, you gotta get that hulk to it spent on that thing.
There was a phrase that struck a chord and took the internet by storm.
A phrase for when she's spinning right onto you.
A dude said this to these two chicks, but always brings a men to bliss.
And she since been on the name of the two.
Love it.
You know what?
I actually want to interview Hulk too.
Let me get her on.
I actually want to interview her.
She's one of the most famous people on the planet right now.
Branding vs Decency 00:03:19
It's quite extraordinary.
But Zubi, where is society going with this?
I mean, are we going to get, I kind of agree bafflingly with James on this, is that you don't want to completely get so po-faced, you can't just have fun moments involving people talking about sex.
However, and isn't it interesting, however, what social media now does, it amplifies things globally very, very quickly.
And does that, in the end, have a corrosive effect on the standards in society?
And is that where we want to go?
Yeah, it's a great question, Pierce.
I don't think it's where we want to go.
And like I said, I'm not a killjoy.
I think it was funny, right?
It's something that is funny.
The thing that is bewildering is just the level of the response.
I think that's the thing that is very bewildering.
And look, I think as a society, we just need a semblance of balance.
I think that's something that strikes me on all of these issues that we've talked about here and many other things going on.
I just think that there's an absence of balance.
Everything needs to get pushed either all the way to the left or all the way to the right.
I mean that both politically and metaphorically.
And with most things, there is a sensible middle where we can have true decency and equality and fairness.
And we were kind of at that point, I want to say, in the late 90s or perhaps early, early to mid-1000s.
And it's just kind of overshot on every single issue.
Well, funny enough, you can chart it really.
You can chart it really when cell phones came in, when the internet began, when social media began.
Because before that, there wasn't the ability to be a kind of narcissistic exhibitionist and get much of an audience.
You know, you'd have to do something completely outrageous on a national stage to make national media 30, 40 years ago.
But now you can very quickly just put something on social media and be a global sensation within half an hour.
That's what's changed.
The ability to lead the 15-minute life that Warhol said.
Eli, you want to say something?
Yeah, I was just going to say also, I would think we should blame this less on the individual and more on like marketing, branding, mass media that's trying to push people to create brands rather than work on their own lives.
I mean, we are constantly told that we're supposed to be self-marketing and self-branding by our education system, by schools, by media and businesses.
And I think this is a big part of it that speaks to a broader issue.
She wasn't really doing what she did, I don't think, for any self-promotional branding.
She literally just said the first thing that came into her head.
Well, she didn't show up on talk shows afterwards.
She did.
She made the most of her fame.
She did.
I don't think her motivation for saying what she said was driven by any sense of becoming a brand.
I don't think she thought for a moment anyone would probably ever see this.
That's what's interesting is that these things can catch fire.
Now, I think to her credit, as I think you said, Eli, was it that this, or was it you, Jones, that she doesn't have any shame, right?
Which is to her credit.
If she's not ashamed by it and she's talking about having sex, then why are we getting so poet-faced, I guess?
Raw Dogging Phenomenon 00:04:32
Because we used to be a society with shame.
So it's not a good thing to watch the disintegration of shame and standards for people, standards of behavior, and morality and decency.
I think that's a good thing.
I think that's a good thing is responsible for that in a way as well.
That whole culture.
I mean, I just genuinely believe everyone will be fully naked on the internet within the next few years.
So, Piers, looking forward to seeing your nudes.
Well, someone told me you brought something with you today.
Oh, my God, yes.
Well, you were talking about spanking, so I thought you might like to see me getting spanked.
Oh, my God.
This is me at LA Pride.
Oh, my God.
Absolutely not.
Is that you?
That's me.
Oh, my God.
What are you doing, Bob?
I love to see you guys here.
What am I watching?
Is this a Pride event?
Yeah, that was, of course, LA Pride.
Of course it was.
LA Pride.
LA Pride.
Does that make you proud?
That's me in the fetish zone.
Yeah, no wonder you stood by holding it.
Absolutely.
Nothing sexual happening there at all.
I was just enjoying a new experience.
More spanks.
It was wonderful.
Really?
Yeah, and I didn't leave with any marks.
I'm contacting HR after this.
Absolutely.
I think this is all possible.
I really really wanted to see that.
Degeneration of society.
Let me go to another subject, raw dogging, which I must admit I'd never heard of and feared the worst.
It's not what we think about dogging, which is a very British phrase involving people who get up to all sorts of things in public places.
It's actually called raw dogging, flying raw or bareback flying.
What it entails is spending time on long-haul flights with no films, no music, no sleep, no snacks, no distractions, no phones, nothing once you're in the cabin.
You literally do nothing.
And people on TikTok have begun posting their personal records.
One user at Ol Woudini, a Manchester-based DJ and producer, wrote, just raw dogged a seven-hour flight, new personal best, no headphones, no movie, no water, nothing.
Incredible.
The power of my mind knows no bounds.
Esther, have we lost our minds?
Yes, we have.
Yes, we have, especially because this shouldn't be a trend.
First of all, that person, I don't think, raw dogged anything because he had his headphones in.
So I'm assuming he was playing something unless he was using it to cancel out the music.
But also, why do we have to make trends out of the mundane?
If you just want a flight to relax and not be distracted and just to rest, albeit with your eyes open, why is this now a trend?
But I once interviewed the Dalai Lama Zubi several times, actually, and he doesn't watch movies, doesn't watch television, doesn't use phones, doesn't do any of these things on a daily basis every day.
And he's one of the most serene, happy guys in his eyes.
I don't think he's the happiest.
I've never met anything.
Are we discussing the Dalai Lama raw dogging?
Because if we're going to talk about that, I mean, I have a lot to say.
He's not the happiest.
I can't contact you.
It's my point, really.
Should we be against a phenomenon which actually takes us back to maybe a gentler, nicer time where we weren't consumed by having to do things?
We could just be at peace with ourselves with a bit of self-serenity.
Yeah, a couple of thoughts on this.
I mean, firstly, calling it raw dogging or barebacking, I think that follows from my previous point of just degeneration of society.
The second thing I would say is on a deeper level, I think that young men lack a lot of meaning and purpose.
And we don't really, as a society, have any rites of passage for young men.
So I think that the fact that this has even become a phenomenon is kind of hinting at that point that simply doing what's essentially a dopamine detox on a flight is now something to be celebrated.
And then the last point that I would make is I think the fact that you are filming yourself doing it and putting it on social media somewhat.
It's a film concept.
Yeah, exactly.
There ain't much raw dogging about filming yourself doing something where you see you're not doing anything.
James Barr, I'd imagine raw dogging is nothing new for you.
I just feel so comfortable discussing this with you.
But listen, if you want to catch a flight together and raw dog in the sky, Piers.
I can literally possible to think of anything I'd rather let's do.
But Eli, do you have any thoughts on raw dogging on planes?
I mean, I can't imagine not getting my sweet, sweet dopamine hit from my phone every five seconds.
So if anything, I'm impressed.
It seems like people are trying to see something new and try new experiences outside of the everyday, just constantly on our phones.
And I see nothing wrong with that.
Most Distasteful Clip 00:01:17
I want to end by asking all of you, all four of you, which has been the most distasteful clip we've played today?
Is it Hawk Troi, Girl?
Is it the power slapping?
Or is it James Barr being spanked at LA Prime?
Please say me.
Zubi, over to you.
Wow.
This is a tough one.
Which is the one you least want to see again?
I would say personally the power slap just because of the sadistic nature of it.
Okay, Eli.
Probably the Hawk too.
Esther?
I have to agree.
There's something about just particularly as a woman seeing women behave that way that just makes my skin.
But just by default, that means all of you were more comfortable watching James Barr being spanked at LA Price.
He was wearing bottles.
Can I just say for the record, that was by far for me the most distasteful.
That tells us a lot, I think, Piers.
Yeah, it's actually making me come out in wheels.
In what?
This is probably how you ended up.
Anyway, thank you to my panel.
We covered a lot of stuff there.
You moved around with great ease and enthusiasm.
I appreciate it.
Thank you very much.
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