Piers Morgan Uncensored tackles global crises and domestic divides, starting with Ukraine's aid efforts versus US political shifts after Biden's State of the Union. Carrie Lake defends her contested 2022 Arizona election loss and argues for redirecting billions from Ukraine to border security, clashing with Morgan on foreign policy priorities. The show then debates the Church of England's gender-neutral pronoun initiative, contrasting Ben Ferguson's scriptural objections with Simon Hill's inclusivity arguments, before dissecting Madonna's ageism claims as attention-seeking narcissism rather than genuine victimhood. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Zelensky's Victory Speech00:03:39
Tonight on Piers Morgan Uncensored, a king's welcome for Zelensky as he rallies parliament to back Ukraine to victory.
But as President Biden snubs the war in his State of the Union speech, could Ukraine's next big battle be the one for America's continued support?
Well, my guest tonight might know she's the rising star of the Republican Party, one of the most controversial politicians in America today.
Carrie Lake could be number two to a future President Trump.
Tonight, she joins me live.
Plus, now even God goes gender neutral.
The Church of England debates non-gender pronouns for his almighty.
I'm sorry, their almighty.
We'll debate whether they've lost their minds.
From London, this is Piers Morgan Uncensored.
Well, good evening from London.
Welcome to Piers Morgan Uncensored.
More than 11,000 people have now died in a devastating earthquake that rocked Turkey and Syria this week.
That's 11,000 grieving families.
11,000 stories of harrowing, life-changing grief.
Stories of suffering, like Meza Hansa, a Turkish father, pictured holding the hand of his dead 15-year-old daughter with the wreckage of their home and their lives piled around him.
The rescue missions in Turkey are swinging into action, but they've been too slow.
The Turkish president's now admitted that.
One of the first countries to send aid was Ukraine.
It's facing its own daily nightmare of grief and suffering at the blood-soaked hands of Putin.
But Ukraine was first in line to help Turkey because the bit of truth is they've become experts in pulling people out of rubble.
It's a great credit to President Zelensky, who's fighting for the survival of his country, that he didn't hesitate to jump to Turkey's rescue.
And it's a great credit to both the United States and Britain that we've been shoulder to shoulder with Ukraine in this war.
That's a point Zelensky made very clearly in his address to Parliament today in only his second international visit since the start of the war.
We know Russia will lose.
And we really know that victory, the victory will change the world.
And this will be a change that the world has long needed.
The United Kingdom is marching with us towards the most, I think, the most important victory of our lifetime.
It will be a victory over the very idea of the war.
After we win together, any aggressor, it doesn't matter big or small, will know what awaits him if he attacks international order.
It was a magnificent speech by one of the most inspiring leaders in the world right now, and he's right, isn't he?
This is a war the whole world needs him to win.
Britain's rightly given a lot to Ukraine.
It should give even more.
The United States has given more to Ukraine than the rest of the world combined.
Ukraine couldn't have held off Russia for this long without America's support.
But when President Biden gave his State of the Union address last night, Ukraine was barely mentioned.
It's thousands of miles away, but Ukraine's next battle may be in Congress to retain America's fulsome support.
Biden's got an eye on next year's election where, aged 81, nearly two actually, he may well have to run for president again.
A powerful faction in the Republican Party, which now controls Congress, believes that aid should be cut back, that America should put America first.
People often scream about international aid and question why we do it.
We look no further than the suffering of the people of Ukraine.
Look no further than the people in Turkey and Syria and the stories of grieving fathers like Meza Hansa.
Running for Office Amidst Chaos00:02:38
That's why we do it.
Well, joining me now is Carrie Lake.
She was a Republican nominee for Arizona governor, one of the leading lights in the Make America Great Again movement and being touted by some pundits as President Trump's running mate in 2024.
Well, Carrie Lake, welcome to Piers Morgan Uncensored.
It's so wonderful to be with you today, Pierce.
So we've never spoken, but I've watched you with fascination from afar, not least because for a long time you were doing what I'm doing.
You were anchoring the news and you did that for many years.
My first question is, what on earth possessed you to want to give up a lovely job like this to get into what can often be a hellhole of political life?
You mean, why would I leave the news to jump into the swamp?
That is a good question.
And I did love my career for 30 years.
I was a broadcast journalist, and I love digging into issues, learning about them, telling people stories.
But during COVID, I really had an epiphany, a wake-up call, that what was being pushed by the news, the mainstream corporate news, was half-truths and fear tactics and really was just dividing our country.
And I could no longer lend my heart and my soul and my voice and my reputation to putting out half-truths.
I wasn't interested in that.
So I did a lot of soul searching and praying, and I walked away from my career, my very successful career, 22 years as number one news anchor in Arizona.
I walked away from a massive paycheck and I just said, God, I'm putting my life in your hands.
Take me where you want me.
And the amazing people of Arizona reached out.
They were so moved by what I did that they reached out to me and said, would you please run for office?
We need somebody who understands us, understands our state, our issues, and will absolutely represent us.
And so I reluctantly went into politics.
I didn't even know how to run for office.
I had to call the Arizona Republican Party and say, how do you run for office?
I mean, I'm really at the heart of it, just a mom who is concerned about where our state is going.
And so that's how I ended up running for office.
Little did I know that we would lead an amazing movement here in the state, bringing in independents, Democrats, and Republicans to bring about change here in Arizona and secure our streets and secure our border.
Unfortunately, the election didn't go the way that we wanted to because we have a lot of fraud in our elections.
And we're working through that right now.
Trump Support and Political Ambition00:14:39
Okay.
Well, that was a good pitch, but let me just put a button into the works there because I'm curious about a lot of...
Of course.
A lot of things have happened to you in your life where you've made quite dramatic changes.
And I want to just talk to you about them.
For example, you used to be a Buddhist, according to some of your friends, but now you're Christian.
Before Trump's inauguration in 2017, you posted an anti-Trump post.
Now you're one of the big Trumpers.
You were very supportive of John McCain after he died and called him courageous and the hero.
And then you turned on him.
You were a Republican.
You became an Independent.
You then became a Democrat.
You're now a Republican again.
So your critics would say, come on, Carrie Lake, who is the real Carrie Lake here?
You're flip-flopping all over the place on all this.
Well, let's first of all.
You're throwing a lot at me, so let me hit all of that.
I am a woman of Christ and a woman of faith.
I grew up Lutheran and Catholic growing up.
I'm now an evangelical.
And I think that there's something you can garner from every religion in the world.
And the Buddhists are peaceful, and I think it's absolutely wonderful.
You know, I've been very much into yoga in my life, and so I don't have a problem with any religion of the world.
And wherever you can find something that stirs your soul and gives you peace in this difficult time, I think that's wonderful.
I find that in the Bible.
And I am a Christian and an evangelical Christian.
And I don't judge anybody by their religion.
I've never made a negative post about President Trump at all.
I don't know what you're talking about, and it would challenge you to never.
Let me clarify.
It was a Facebook post.
We're showing it on screen.
It was one that you posted to your Facebook, which was right on the eve of the inauguration.
And after Fox News revealed this, apparently it then got taken down.
But it was not my president, and it was posted.
I've never taken anything down from my Facebook post, and I've never printed anything derogatory toward President Trump.
As a journalist, it was not my job to post anything derogatory about the president.
I would often talk about something happening in the news and say, hey, what do you think?
This is happening, and this is happening.
What are your thoughts?
That's how I use social media as a journalist.
And I think that's a really healthy way to use social media where you get people kind of socializing and discussing issues on social media.
I've always been a supporter of President Trump, but I didn't feel the need to put that out publicly.
As a journalist, you really should keep your ideas in check.
I also covered the McCain's, and I covered everybody fairly.
It's not my job as a journalist to tell somebody how to think about them.
No, I think with John McCain.
Let me explain on John McCain because I knew John McCain.
Read the post.
Read the post for me.
I challenge you to read the post, and I knew him well as well.
Here's what I would say about John McCain: I knew him.
I interviewed him many times.
I had huge admiration for him.
And it seemed after he died, you shared all that admiration.
You called him courageous and heroic and so on.
But then read the post.
But then in your campaign, I really challenge you to read the case.
But you were pretty scathing about him.
And you said that Arizona produced a lot of losers.
And people took that to mean John McCain, right?
Well, I can't help if people think that.
I mean, that's kind of a silly thing to think.
I covered John McCain.
I have immense respect for his military career.
You know, he was a politician here for 40 years.
I covered him for many of those years.
And no politician is free from criticism of their work.
I mean, look at President Trump.
He was criticized day in and day out for 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
And he's still being criticized, even though he's a private citizen.
We can definitely criticize our politicians and the work they do.
I know that Senator McCain promised, and I covered him probably longer than you did, Pierce, to end Obamacare, replace it with something better.
When he had the opportunity, and that fell squarely on his shoulders, he went in and gave the thumbs down and didn't do what he promised the people of Arizona.
When he was running for Senate, one of the times that he was running for re-election, he did an ad saying, build the dang fence, build the dang wall.
And then when President Trump said, you know what, let's do that.
The people do want that.
He fought tooth and nail against that.
He was censured by the Republican Party here.
I know that on a world stage, many people know him, but a lot of Republicans in Arizona felt like he showed up for a few months every six years to run for re-election and then ignored a lot of the issues facing Arizona.
I don't believe that.
Listen, you should be free from criticism.
Okay, I completely agree.
No one should be free from criticism.
I think it was the juxtaposition that you had.
I know I haven't been.
I haven't.
I'm going to come to that, but I think the only point I would make is you were so praiseworthy of him in his death, and yet very soon after that, suddenly it looked like you turned on him.
Well, Pierce, really, honestly, someone has just passed away, and he had led, he led, he's an icon, led an amazing life.
I said, the Maverick has passed away.
And that was his nickname, as you know, because you've interviewed him.
I have a heart and a soul, and I know the suffering of losing a father.
I lost my father more than a decade ago, and I still tear up at the thought of that, and I feel for the family.
I'm a human being, and so are they, and I feel for that.
I've not been unfairly critical of John McCain.
I think any criticism I've launched at him was that he didn't do what he told the people he would do.
And I am not out to get anybody.
I actually brought a lot of the Republican Party together.
I'm an America First Republican.
We have McCain Republicans here, and I believe that we can work together.
We agree on 95% of everything, maybe 99% of everything we Republicans do.
And we tend to kind of duke things out and debate.
And I wish that the other party did that, but they don't.
They just fall in line.
Well, Carrie, let me turn to one thing which is splitting the party.
And that is this issue of stolen elections.
So you've been, obviously, Donald Trump supported you, and you've been very supportive of his belief that he had the 2020 election stolen from him.
I've interviewed Donald Trump, and we had a great interview, but I took him on and said, I don't think that election was stolen from you.
And more than that, President Trump, I think your persistence in claiming it was is damaging to your chances of potentially winning again.
And I would say to you, Carrie Lake, you're clearly a rising star in the Republican firmament.
You've got a lot of popularity.
In fact, since you lost the election, and we'll come to whether you think you have or not in a moment, but since you did, a lot of money has come in for you.
So people think, Carrie Lake, rising star, you know, potentially on a Trump ticket, who knows what that will go?
And I'll ask you about that.
But you again have not accepted the results of the election.
And there is a belief that it's almost deliberate.
It's like you've looked at Donald Trump and thought, you know what, there's a great way to make money and fame for myself, and that's to be an election denier.
And I would simply say to you, I said to Donald Trump, I don't think it works for you guys.
I don't think denying the result of Democratic elections is an effective tool to actually win elections.
That is the silliest thing I've ever heard.
That is absolutely, it's funny, actually.
I campaigned 525 days across the most beautiful state in the country, Arizona, and I know the people, and I worked incredibly hard, and our volunteers and the people gathered around it.
It really was a movement, and you weren't here to cover it, unlike we've ever seen in politics.
72% of the city of Arizona voters, sir, sir, 72% of Arizona voters believe that that election, something was wrong, and it wasn't honest.
72% of Arizonans.
And I want to make sure, I have children, I have two children, 18 and 19 years old.
I want to make sure when they grow up, we don't continue to run elections like a banana republic, where on election day, voters showed up.
Our voters showed up 75% to 25%, 3-1 on Election Day, and the machines weren't working.
They printed intentionally the wrong image on the ballot, and that was meant to have the ballots spit out and rejected by the tabulators.
A quarter of a million times on Election Day, more than half of the ballots were spit out.
Carrie tabulated.
There's been no problem.
Piers, we can't continue to run elections.
Carrie, there's been no independent corroboration that there was anything fraudulent about this election.
In fact, it's pretty clear that you lost to Katie Hobbs, your rival, 50.3% to 49.6%.
And as with Donald Trump, when I said to him, where's the hard evidence?
He went down all sorts of rabbit holes, but he couldn't produce hard evidence.
Piers, there's a mountain of hard evidence.
And when we presented it in our trial, the other side didn't even dispute the evidence.
They didn't.
They had to do it.
But not that the election result was forged.
With single change of custody.
Yes, well, we can't continue to run elections this way.
And we know that we won.
And we're going to continue to fight this in a court of law.
And it's really rich that you're sitting across the pond acting like you know what happened on Election Day.
I did not see your smiling face.
We had lots of international media here covering Election Day in Arizona.
Yours is one face I didn't see and nor did I see it.
You could have had my smiling face, Carrie.
Well, Arizonans, I would have loved to have seen you.
We had more media covering our election than I've ever seen cover any story here in Arizona.
And as I said, I covered Arizona for nearly 30 years.
So it's okay that you are not comfortable with me fighting this election and fighting for election integrity.
No, it's okay, John.
I don't mind the final thing.
I'm not saying that Piers Morgan.
Let me clarify.
I don't mind your fighting spirit.
I don't mind in Donald Trump.
I've known him a long time.
Well, I have every right to fight this election.
So you run contests with the fight.
But there does come a point in the world.
And are you doing this for the people of Arizona?
There does come a point when, for the future of democracy, you and Donald Trump have to accept at some point you lost an election.
Otherwise, the entire system collapses.
If your simple response to losing is always, we didn't lose, we won, then democracy dies.
Pierce, I grew up in a family of nine.
I'm the youngest.
My father was a history and government teacher and a football coach.
And he taught us that if we lose and we lose fair and square, we congratulate the winner and we walk away.
And that's exactly what I would do if that was a fair and square election.
But I'm fighting for the people of Arizona.
I go all over this country.
I've been probably to six states since the election.
In Arizona, I can't walk 10 feet without an Arizonan saying, I voted for you.
Everybody I know voted for you.
Our ballot was rejected on Election Day.
Please keep fighting for us.
I'm fighting for the people of Arizona.
And I don't mean any offense to you, but I frankly don't give a damn what you think about it.
I'm fighting for the people of Arizona.
Listen, I truly am.
No offense taken whatsoever.
And let me ask you this, Pierce.
Let me ask you a question.
Do you think it's right that you show up on Election Day?
That's the big day.
On Election Day.
And 60% of voting locations in the primarily Republican locations have ballots that are printed out wrong.
Listen, machines that are choiring have four-hour lines.
Is that okay?
All I know from my lofty place here in London, and I admit I wasn't in Arizona, all I know is that all the official fact-checking entities that have looked into all the claims do not conclude that you're not going to be able to do that.
We know about the fact checkers.
Come on.
Pierce, Pierce, did you just fall off the turnip truck?
We know about the fact-checkers, and we've seen them.
This has all been revealed.
Half of them are leftists working for Facebook.
Let's be real, okay?
The fact checkers.
Let me ask you one final point.
What do they know?
And what do they know about this question?
At what point would you accept that you've lost?
Well, do you think that we have a right to move this through the court system?
I think we do.
I know that we do.
We have the right to do that.
You certainly have a legal right to do that.
You've got a legal right to do it.
But my point is, a warning.
Yes, indeed.
Is there anything that I do?
And people are expecting me to do it.
You've got a right to do it.
Is there any point where you would accept that you lost?
We are taking it to the Supreme Court.
That's where we're taking it.
Okay.
Let me ask you, secondly, a lot of rumors swirling you might run to be senator.
Is that true?
I have had many people reach out to me and say, you need to run for senator.
We have an opportunity here to win.
And we're really concerned about what would happen if we allow a socialist like the Democrat who's jumped in or someone like Kirsten Sinema who votes with Joe Biden 95%, 93% of the time.
We need to have someone like you run.
You're the only Republican who can win.
It is in the back of my mind, but my number one priority is my case, and I want to see my case through.
And if Donald Trump, if Donald Trump says to you he wants you to be his running mate, what would your answer be?
Wow, the hypotheticals.
This is crazy.
If the royal family invites you in and offers you a job, what are you going to do, Pierce?
I mean, these are hypotheticals.
Well, if I'm not going to be able to do that, if it's a good one, I'd say yes, thanks.
Thanks very much.
When do I start?
Where's my palace?
Well, honest to goodness, I have not given that thought.
And I think the president's amazing.
He was a great president, greatest of my lifetime.
And I know that every American was doing better when he was in the White House.
And I really miss the economy that he helped lead.
I miss the fact that he helped to end wars rather than start wars.
First president in my lifetime that didn't start a war.
And I know that he cares deeply about this country.
We really need to get back to putting the people of this country first, giving them back their government.
Focusing on Arizona First00:02:55
And I am just focused on what I'm doing here in Arizona.
Final question on Ukraine.
President Zelensky's here in London, gave a stirring speech to Parliament.
I'm curious why so many Republicans seem to want Vladimir Putin to win.
You know, why don't you ask them?
What's your view?
All I know is I am here in Arizona, and it is nothing is more aggravating and anger-inducing to the people of Arizona than watching these buffoons back in Washington, D.C. take our hard-earned money and write a check to Ukraine.
Over $100 billion has gone to Ukraine.
And we sit here in Arizona with a wide-open border.
The narco-terrorists and the drug cartels, with the help of the CCP in China, are pushing in and funneling record numbers, record amounts of fentanyl through Arizona into the rest of this country.
We're watching a young generation.
All those are problems with the body.
We have a wide-open border, and they don't want to send a penny here.
I don't disagree with you about those issues, and they have to be tackled, but they have nothing to do with Ukraine.
And again, my curiosity is simply that when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, for example, America couldn't wait to get stuck in to kick him out.
And most Republicans I know supported it.
And yet, here we have Vladimir Putin, who is on a whole different level of dictator, marching into a European country.
And to my astonishment, some Republicans seem to think that the best answer to this is to let him just take Ukraine.
And I'm just bemused.
Why?
Why wouldn't every fiber of a Republican being be, we have got to defeat Putin wherever he marches in and tries to thwart democracy?
Well, this Republican believes that we need to make sure we're putting the needs of Americans first.
And right now, Americans are struggling.
I've talked to retirees who saved and did everything right.
Many of them were even veterans.
They did everything right.
And they're watching their retirement savings evaporate under Joe Biden.
My focus is on the people, the good people of Arizona.
And that's why I'm fighting for them every day.
I continue to fight.
I watch the people who are sitting in office here, and they are dead set on destroying this state and making our lives, making us suffer and making us less safe.
So my focus is on the people of Arizona, and I intend to keep my focus here.
We oftentimes get involved in skirmishes and wars and try to start things up overseas.
And I think the American people are growing very weary of that.
Incredibly weary watching our hard-earned money go overseas, and we're in a precarious spot if we continue to behave that way.
Challenging Traditional Prayer Norms00:09:26
And I don't think that's the American spirit.
Okay, well, Carrie, on that, we will disagree, but it's been great to interview you.
Thank you for coming on Piers Morgan Uncensored.
And I will follow your rising career with great interest.
And please come to Arizona.
I'd love to tour you, give you a tour of the border and show you around.
And maybe we could even sit down and have lunch and go over some of the evidence in our case.
I would love to do that, Ashley.
I'll take you up on that.
Carrie Lake, thank you very much indeed.
Thank you, Pierce.
Well, coming next tonight, the Church of England is considering scrapping centuries of religious teaching to give God gender-neutral pronouns.
Is our Heavenly Father no more?
Welcome back to Piers Morgan Uncensored.
Next tonight, let us pray.
Our Father, sorry, not anymore.
Our non-gendered parent who art in heaven.
That sound right to you?
In a break the centuries of tradition, the Church of England's debating whether to stop referring to God as a he by introducing gender-neutral pronouns in prayers and hymns.
Well, I'm joined by Christian activist and author Simon Hill and U.S. Conservative talk radio host Ben Ferguson.
So, Ben Fogerson, I'd imagine when you heard about this, the steam began to rage out of your ears.
What is your view of a gender-neutral God?
Congratulations to the church for doing everything possible to become completely irrelevant from society with this woke BS.
It's embarrassing that they can't go back and look at what scripture says and look at certain things like our Father who art in heaven and then sit there and think, wow, of all the problems that people have in the world, that we could be helping people with poverty and with children and with orphans and with people that are starving around the world.
Let's go back in and rewrite this so that we don't offend anybody.
Guess what?
The scriptures are offensive to people that sin.
The scriptures are offensive to Christians because it is about right and wrong.
There are people that are always going to be offended by the Bible, and to try to take the offensiveness out of it and give everybody a kumbaya warm hug is a disaster for the church.
Anyone that's doing this, in my opinion, should not be in a position of leadership of the church and they should be fired immediately for trying it.
Okay.
Simon Hill, your response to that.
Well, I think with all respect to Ben, he's right that the church should be concerned about poverty, about the needs of children.
The church could get a lot more active in supporting marginalized people.
But this isn't the Church of England considering a massive change.
This is just a part of the Church of England having a discussion about possibly allowing some variety in worship in the way God is referred to.
And actually, there's nothing new about it.
God is not literally male or literally female.
That's not talking about God.
You're not suggesting that God is not a literally male.
Like, are you?
Okay, let me ask you a question.
Am I a serious question?
Am I black?
I don't know.
I can't see you.
I'm just talking down a microphone, so I don't know.
He's not for the record.
Am I a male or a female?
Serious question.
Well, I'm assuming you're male from what you say.
Of course, Jesus.
Okay, well, then you're not.
Okay, so if you can be that logical, if you hold on one second, if you can be that logical, and I'll go to Piers Morgan for this, is Piers Morgan black or white?
Well, I'm currently identifying as white.
Piers is white.
God is not God's people.
Okay, so you identify as white.
This is the insanity.
The fact that we're even having a pause and people are worried about how to answer the damn question is the absurdity of what's going on in this world.
Piers, just so you know, I have no problem saying you're white.
I have no problem saying that you're not Roy McElroy.
I have no problem saying that you're not a woman.
I have no problem saying that you're not Jesus.
I have no problem saying that there's a difference between a man and a woman.
There shouldn't be a long pause because we're afraid of offending someone when we tell them the truth.
The fact is, there are certain things that are just straight.
Yes, Jesus is a man.
Let Simon respond to that.
I mean, Simon, the point I would make, Simon, is simply that I can imagine that a lot of people in England who are Christian, who've seen this headline, particularly the Daily Mail, the front page, is God going to go gender neutral.
They'll just groan out loud and they will think the Church of England has gone woke.
And as we know, once that starts, it just starts to alienate people from the church.
And at a time when the church needs more support, not less support, I'm surprised they would want to press the woke button.
I groaned when I saw the Daily Mail headline because it was so inaccurate, because it suggested this was going to be some major change in the Church of England rather than a committee having a discussion about some possible minor changes.
It may alienate you for the church to try to be inclusive, but actually this is challenging if we can, you know, I'm happy to call God he or she or they.
What would you do with the Lord's Prayer out of interest?
What would you do, Simon, with the Lord's Prayer?
You can't start with our Father.
I still say our Father, but why?
Why would you do that if you believe in that?
Yeah, but hang on.
If you believe in gender neutrality for God, why would you start the Lord's Prayer with Our Father?
That makes no sense, obviously.
You have to change it to our person.
Well, I'd happy to say Father or Mother because I think God is our Father and our Mother.
And as I say, there are prayers from the Christian people.
So you would change the Lord's Prayer to say our Mother who art in heaven.
Hang on, Simon.
I want to know.
No, I'd happily say.
Every church, everywhere I go where there's a church setting, you say the Lord's Prayer.
Are you now saying we change the wording of the Lord's Prayer to our mother who art in heaven?
Is that what you're suggesting?
No, I'm not saying that at all.
But what do people do?
People are reading these headlines.
You're saying the mail headline is wrong, and I'm saying to you, someone who worked at the mail for a long time, is it wrong?
Isn't it the natural extension of where this debate goes?
Which is actually what's like the Lord's Prayer.
That everything could be changed in the church of England.
Right, so just to clarify Jesus referred to God as right.
Understand.
Let me just ask a question.
Just to clarify, so that everyone watching is under no illusion what this means.
If God is deemed to be gender neutral, what is the wording to the start of the Lord's Prayer?
How do we start it?
I think it's fine to refer to God as father or mother or parent.
I don't think that's the same thing.
Have you been to a church service where they said, our mother who art in heaven, Simon?
Have you been to one that did that?
I've been to a church service that said our parent, yes.
But our mother.
Not in the Lord's Prayer, but in other prayers.
I've led prayers in church, right?
But the Lord's Prayer is the most important prayer of all.
We know that in the Christian.
No, no, no.
What makes a prayer important is the sincerity in our hearts.
What is sincere about changing our wording?
Yeah, but what's sincere about changing the wording after centuries of this key prayer in the Christian church from our Father who art in heaven that refers to God?
To me, the problem with this, Ben, is it makes no sense.
Like a lot of woke things, it all sounds great and conclusive.
Right to the point where I try to work out.
Well, hang on, Simon.
Simon, hang on.
I'm asking Ben.
The problem is, Ben, when you go down this woke rabbit hole, it sounds great in principle.
Yeah, let's be more inclusive.
Until you get to the actual details, i.e., what is the wording of the law's prayer?
And when I hear it might be our parent who art in heaven or our mother who art in heaven.
I can only tell you, my mother, a Catholic watching this at home, will be throwing stuff at the screen.
Yeah, if you want to destroy religion, this is how you do it.
Let me finish.
Let me finish.
If you want to destroy people's faith in God, this is how you do it.
If you want to destroy the church, this is how you destroy it.
And that may be what some people are wanting to do here through wokeness is say, we stand for nothing to include everything, and we don't stand up for right and wrong.
Because ultimately, if you look at what the Bible is about and you look at what people believe in, it's about, let me finish, let me finish.
Okay, just hold on.
I was quiet for quite some time, and Piers knows me well.
That was very hard for me to do.
Very unusual.
The church is about right and wrong and good and evil.
And if you take that away, where the church can no longer stand up for what is right and have principles and declare that things are in fact wrong, you will destroy the church and you will destroy a society who has no faith in anything, has no faith in any God.
That is going to be where they go with it.
It's an interesting debate.
Simon, I appreciate you joining me.
Ben, thank you for joining me.
And letting Ben get a word in.
I'm not denying right and wrong.
All right.
Simon, got to leave it.
There you are.
You're trying to change the Bible.
Madonna, Ageism, and Victimhood00:07:38
You can't even tell me what a man or a woman is.
Guys, on that bombshell, thank you very much for.
You didn't actually ask me that, but I believe in principles.
I don't believe God is about in the sky.
All right, I do think we're going to start the Lord's Prayer with our mother who is in heaven and we've all lost our rights.
Guys, got to leave it there.
Thank you very much indeed.
Coming up, Madonna is always reinventing herself.
Now she's declared herself a victim of ageism and misogyny.
All because people were mocking her face at the Grammys, which certainly bore no relation to the face she used to have.
And we'll debate that next.
Well, one of these stand-up moments for me at the Grammy Awards, we're not the actual awards themselves, but this Madonna looking like she got the wrong date for Halloween.
Well, now she's taken to Instagram to say many people chose only to talk about close-up photos of me.
God forbid that anyone would photograph Madonna taken with a long lens camera by a press photographer that would distort anyone's face.
Once again, I'm called in the glare of ageism and misogyny that permeates the world we live in, a world that refuses to celebrate women past the age of 45.
Well, here's a discussion.
Podcast from comedian James Barr, talk to the contributor Esther Kraku, associate editor of the Daily Mirror, Kevin Maguire.
So Kevin, I woke up this morning to Madonna because I had past comment of the critical nature about Madonna.
And she tweeted, the world is threatened by my power and my stamina, my intelligence and my will to survive, but they will never break me.
This is all the test.
And there was a very filtered picture of herself, which had clearly been through the filtering minster.
So here's my thing about Madonna, Kevin.
I think she is an absolute joke now.
And I say that as somebody who was a massive fan.
I literally went to see her on the holiday tour, one of the greatest pop stars at her peak I've ever seen.
She has become an embarrassing shambles, quite deliberately.
And when I saw these pictures, I just once again thought, my God, what did she say?
A, what's she done to herself?
But B, the constant attention seeking.
She was making horrible sexual signs with Sam Smith.
She was doing all sorts of stuff as normal, you know, the normal attention seeking.
And it just doesn't, the act doesn't play with any mid-60s.
Would you have been outraged if Mick Jagger was doing that?
I have.
It's the same way.
She doesn't do what she does.
Yeah, but come on, she is a victim of ageism.
She's a victim.
And misogyny, but at the same time, she's a victim of her own narcissist.
She's always out there trying to get noticed.
And if you go out there and try and get noticed, you're going to get jeers as well as cheers.
James Barr, you're a self-confessed Madonna super fan.
Gas.
Is she a victim of ageism and misogyny?
Absolutely.
And the fact that we're sat here, two men sat here, three men discussing misogyny is misogynistic.
So Kevin is completely.
Well, men can't discuss women.
You don't get an opinion on whether Madonna is telling her truth or not.
That's her.
What is her truth?
That people are being misogynistic to her, and that a woman over 45 is not allowed or permitted to be sexy in the eyes of people like you.
There is only the truth.
There's not people's versions of it.
We're not on the Megan and Harry podcast, right?
So you can't just say her truth.
There are facts.
The fact is she's done stuff to her face surgically, which means when she goes out now, we all shriek in horror.
I think it's quite rude to say that you shriek in horror.
I literally did.
It's like a Halloween concept.
But ultimately, Piers, you've met Madonna.
You called her rude when you were called.
She was incredibly rude every time I met her, but I don't hold that against her.
But it sounds like you do, actually.
Women are allowed to be.
They're allowed to be rude little madams, and she is, right?
No problem at all.
Women are allowed to not like you, Pierce.
Absolutely fine.
She doesn't give you permission to hack them.
James.
Not a problem at all.
She can hate my guts.
It doesn't mean I can't pass comment on her without being called immediately misogynist.
But is anyone discussing how you look?
And we're going to be able to do that.
All the time.
Literally, I get fat-shamed all the time, even though, as you can see, I'm basically emaciated, right?
And this is the new regime, by the way.
It's the new year new me, and it's all just falling off.
But you know why?
Because I got fat-shamed.
I actually think it's good.
A Madonna needs to listen to proper friends who say to her, what the hell do you do to your face, love?
Right?
Look at that.
It looks like the bride of Wilderness.
It's not misogyny to notice that she looks crazy.
I'm a huge Madonna fan.
I'm not going to say that she looks crazy.
But she does look crazy.
If this was my friend, I would be like, man, she looks terrible.
You look like a loaf of warbled in.
But if she was my friend, seriously, I think the issue here is she is too rich to be looking this crazy.
I have no problem with cosmetic surgery.
There are loads of celebrities that have had it done.
The aim is not to look crazy.
I'm a huge fan of her, and I just think she's too established.
She's too much of an icon to do this to be a person.
For what you're miserable.
Name it on misogyny.
It's not misogynistic to notice.
It's that she's telling you why, perhaps, in your opinion, she looks the way she looks.
Which is kind of a victim.
It's not crazy.
She's not in a mental health condition.
Even you don't think she's a victim.
I do think she's a lot.
What?
Of misogyny, of ageism, of people like you saying she looks crazy and that she's not permitted to be sexy in her 60s.
I didn't say she wasn't sexy.
I just said that when someone is that desperate, I mean, she releases picture after picture of herself naked, lying under beds, you know, all sorts of kissing toy boys.
It's all attention-seeking narcissism.
Fine.
What you can't do is look at this picture here.
So the idea I can't criticise that picture and say that is desperate for a woman in her 60s.
And without you saying you're being ageist of misogynist.
No, I'm not, James Barr.
Look at her.
She's hot.
That's a hot piece of...
I mean, that looks like a dead cockroo.
No, it's not.
It does a lot.
Imagine if that was your great grandmother, which, by the way, she's old enough to be.
Honestly, like a little bit like a crime scene, doesn't it?
That's what it does.
Yeah, it looks like a screen.
I don't know if your grandparents are still alive.
No, sadly, my nan is not.
But imagine if she was and that was her.
Thanks for watching.
And she released that picture.
I would love that.
Really?
Yeah, I've got friends whose grandmas are on OnlyFans.
Get out of there.
I'd have to have a quiet word, right?
I think you'd probably be feeling a little uncomfortable, but mainly because you might be finding it attractive.
Here's my point.
I don't think you can behave the way Madonna behaves and not expect criticism.
To then play the victim when you deliberately provoke people, I think it's absurd.
It would be like me playing the victim when I give it out large with my opinions.
And then say, and someone says to me, oh, something so disgusting, bitch, oh my God, I'm a victim.
Look, I see a lot of it as embarrassing.
I look at Helen Millen, Meron, who I think must be a bit older and is really sexy in a very different way.
But some of the criticism she gets is motivated because of her age and because she's a woman.
Because she gets more she wants to play the 25-year-old sex part and she's 64, right?
And I'm sorry, Esther, but I would say the same about Mick Jagger when he's overdone it, the old strolling bone thing on stage.
It's like, come on, put it on.
And you need to stop having children.
Look, I don't think it's misogyny to notice when someone's acting nuts, right, or looking ridiculous.
I'd say that I'm a huge fan of Madonna.
She is a bit nuts, James.
Come on.
She is.
And I like that about...
No, listen.
No sane person behaves like that.
She is Madonna.
She's an icon.
She will always be an icon.
This is completely unnecessary.
And it's not ageism or sexism or misogyny to notice that this isn't necessary.
By the way, look, look, James, here's the point.
You've bought tickets to her concert.
Millions of other people have and will.
It'll be a smash hit.
She's not a victim.
She might be many other things.
But all this does is fuel this sort of furori around Madonna and she'll make even more money or sell even more tickets.
But it's just the playing the victim which got my goat this morning.
It's like, Madonna, of all things, stick it back to me.
Call me a rough old English twerp, whatever you want to call me.
I hate her.
I don't care.
But don't play the victim because it's pathetic.
I don't think it's pathetic that she's just sold out a world tour of 30 plus dates in seconds.
Boris Johnson's Privacy Debate00:06:33
I don't think that's possible.
I think it's absolutely baffling.
But if you want to go and watch her prancing around in her 60s, looking like that, enjoy your show, James.
Thank you so much.
She's just in the words of Madonna.
There's no greater power than the power of goodbye.
Indeed.
James, goodbye.
That seems totally immaterial, girl.
Anyway, next week.
Next tonight, Prince Harry told the world about the woman who took his vajinity to sell all the book.
He invaded her privacy, and now it's her turn.
A taste of my global TV exclusive is coming up.
Welcome back.
Well, Kevin and Esther are still here.
Let's talk about Zelensky.
Pretty powerful speech today, Kevin.
Whatever side you are on about all this, I just thought he really is an amazing orator.
Yeah, it's the real deal, stole the show, spoke in English.
When he did a broadcast upon it, last time it was in Ukraine.
What I like, though, is he is there.
Yep, he said thank you, but he made a request.
He wants planes.
Wings for freedom, he said.
He's not afraid to come and raise the ante every time.
And some interesting politics, Esther, because Boris Johnson was there and was sort of seen muscling his way to the front of the thing.
But actually, it was really about Rishi Sunak because he's the prime minister.
And this was, I think, Rishi's way.
Obviously, I interviewed him last week and asked him about whether he's worried about being called a submarine prime minister by Nadine Doris when she interviewed Boris for Talk TV.
And it looks to me like he's decided, right, enough of Boris zipping off to Ukraine every 10 minutes, pretending he's still prime minister.
I'm going to host him here and show him the red carpet, which he did.
And I think it was an impressive day for both of them, actually.
And I can only hope Boris will finally take a hint because obviously he's not going to be able to do it.
And take due credit, as Zelensky gave Boris for getting the sort of coalition of support together.
But right now, this is about Rishi Sunak, not Boris Johnson.
Yeah, Sunak calls the shots now.
He'll decide whether he gets planes or not.
Not Johnson.
I mean, I find it interesting the petty politics people are playing with Zelensky's outfit.
Oh, that's ridiculous.
I've seen people tweeting and like, why does he always wear a military outfit?
Why do you think he's in a country at war?
This is the second time he's left the country.
It's nearly a year this has been raging.
I mean, when you go and meet Zelensky, as I did in Ukraine, in Kyiv, he's such an impressive guy.
He's really quite a short guy.
He's not physically like a big sort of presence.
But when you talk to him, he feels like he grows in front of you.
He's got such eloquence, the way he expresses himself, such resilience and kind of determination to win this.
And I think a bit like Churchill in World War II for us, in a way, he's helped persuade the Ukrainian people.
He's rallied him, we can win this.
He didn't expect this.
I think people forget that, you know, at no point in his presidency did he think, you know, I would be leading the country during a conflict with Russia for a year.
Right.
All right, so I think people need to understand he really has the weight of an entire nation on his shoulders.
So nitpicking on things like his image and all of that, it's very petty.
And it's also losing sight of the bigger issue.
Russia will not stop at Ukraine.
And I think for us to forget that is irresponsible.
I do find it weird, Kevin, that... that Republicans, we interviewed Carrie Lake earlier, who's a rising star in the party, but there is a real sentiment now amongst Republicans that they should be almost pulling out of Ukraine.
And you think, why would an old school Republican and American want a dictator like Putin to win?
I don't care.
It's America looking inwards again.
America first is everybody else last.
And I think it's a really worrying development in the US politics.
Are you surprised by that?
I think it's misplaced kind of in internal, like looking internally, because I think the argument should be, how do we wrap this war up as quickly as possible?
But then you have this kind of rabid wing of the Republican Party that are just like, no, let's just pull out entirely.
I was like, you're not really understanding the nuances of the situation.
You should want this war to wrap up very quickly because it affects everyone.
You should want a fast conclusion, not let's pull out immediately.
Right.
Zelensky also met King Charles at Bucky and Palace, obviously coronation coming up.
You know, it was a nice meeting of these two people.
And he made a nice line, Zelensky, about all the pilots now in Ukraine are kings to him.
And he presented actually a pilot's helmet, didn't he, in Parliament?
But a big few weeks and months coming up for King Charles leading up to this coronation, Kevin.
It's a big moment for him, for the country, for the monarchy.
And of course.
And for you personally, obviously leaving the country.
I'm actually thinking of going.
I am actually thinking of going away to miss it.
But for him, it is huge.
Of course, he's got to work out what is he going to do with his whole family.
And you've got the Andrews scandal still there, and some of his mates seem to be pushing that he's really the Dreyfus of.
And then you've got Harry.
You've got Harry.
And he can't ignore that.
Right.
Well, you certainly can't ignore the interview that we have tomorrow night because we have the first television interview in the world with the lady who took Harry's virginity.
And we've got a little clip from this.
This is Sasha Walpole from my interview, which is airing tomorrow night.
People are asking, you know, family and friends, oh, yeah, we know who it is.
And then suddenly it's just the reality of this isn't going to go away forever.
This is going to flare up.
Until they know who it is, they're going to be questioning people.
And yes, I could not have said anything, but then it's never going to stop.
This is a mistake.
Do you think he should have had the manners, honestly, to just have let you know it was going to be...
He could have given me a heads up of like, you know, I'm going to put it in the book.
It's an extraordinary interview with somebody who we'd never heard of last week.
And suddenly it's propelled into the front pages of newspapers because Harry ironically invaded her privacy and put all the details about losing virginity to this older woman in this pub.
Everybody in the locality knew who he was talking about.
And before she knew it, it was like an unstoppable thing of outing her.
So she thought, I may as well get ahead of it.
But the irony, Esther, of Prince privacy, making this woman feel like her privacy had been invaded.
Well, because he's not very intelligent.
Everyone knows that Prince Harry is, quite frankly, a bit thick.
And he thought he was being clever by shrouding it in some sort of secrecy.
Oh, it's an older woman in a pub.
And I'm like, you know, there were people there.
There are people that can easily identify this moment, the situation, and who was there.
Well, it's a great interview.
We're wearing it tomorrow night.
If you want to find out what he thinks about Harry, she thinks about Harry now, about Meghan Markle, about King Charles.
It's all in this interview with Sasha Walpole.
That's exclusive.
Tomorrow night, the lady who took Harriet virginity.