Piers Morgan, Eva Santina, and Simon Hill dissect Queen Elizabeth II's death, King Charles III's accession, and the legal fallout of Santina's arrest under the 2022 Police Act for protesting the proclamation. They analyze the monarchy's future amidst Harry-Meghan tensions, Prince Andrew's controversial funeral appearance, and debates over the Commonwealth's relevance following Antigua's potential republic status. While guests debate whether pageantry preserves dignity or masks historical wrongs like the Windrush scandal, the discussion concludes that the institution faces an uncertain future defined by free speech clashes and shifting global alliances. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Expectation Management in History00:15:02
Well good evening, welcome to an extended two-hour special edition of Piers Morgan Uncensored.
I am Piers Morgan with you till 10 o'clock.
So here it is then, the third Carolan era.
His Majesty King Charles III, the Queen is dead, God save the King.
Still feels strange, doesn't it, to say those words?
It will take getting used to, let's be honest.
But already, I feel like it's less strange than it seemed even two days ago.
Already the shock and the sadness of the Queen's passing is turning into protests, process and pragmatism.
And that, after all, is the British way, isn't it?
The late Queen herself did that better than anybody.
We keep calm and we carry on.
And we carry out our historic customs with the pageantry, pomp and class that is unmatched anywhere else in the world.
And today, honestly, I feel proud.
I feel proud of the huge numbers of people who've come out to pay their own personal tribute to the Queen, all on their own time.
I'm proud of the ceremonies and processions that Britain truly does best.
I'm proud of the new king, too, smiling through his intense grief.
This is the man who lost his father and now his mother, all in the space of, what, 18 months?
Yet there he is, smiling with the public, shaking their hands, taking the odd kiss.
And he's making powerful speeches.
So whatever's going on inside, whatever turmoil he's going through as a man that loved his mother, we're seeing a king at the top of his game from day one, just as his mother was.
When I watched him this morning talking to MPs and peers in the famous Westminster Hall, I couldn't fold a word he said, just as I couldn't with his national address the other night.
That hall, of course, is the place where Guy Fawkes and Charles I were put on trial.
It's where King George and the Queen Mother lay in state.
It's heard speeches from everyone from Khrushchev to President Reagan and the Pope.
A thousand years of history in one room.
Where else in the world do you get that?
Today felt like a new chapter in that history, in our history, and I'm feeling good about it.
A lot of people feared for the future of the monarchy without the late Queen, and with good reason.
I've had my doubts myself.
But the more I see and hear already from King Charles III, the more reassured I am about the future of our monarchy and about the kind of king he's going to be.
And in her death, the Queen seemingly managed to reunite some of the warring factions of the royal family themselves.
However, temporarily, she's also reminded us, hasn't she, of the values she held and what those values mean to being British.
And her son, who's now taken over from her, I think shares those values.
And not for the first time, the late Queen has made us incredibly proud of this country.
Well, joining me now is Talk TV political editor Kate McCann from Westminster, Talk TV correspondent Miranda Schunker, who's at Buckingham Palace.
Let's go to Miranda first.
Miranda, Buckingham Palace can be very emotional tomorrow.
The Queen at the moment is in Scotland.
That's where her body is currently lying in state and people are passing by to pay their respects there.
But tomorrow she'll come back via plane to London, to Buckingham Palace, for the last time to Buckingham Palace, her great home in the capital city.
And I suspect we're going to see quite remarkable scenes there tomorrow and of course very different to the scenes that we saw in the Jubilee celebrations.
Yes indeed.
I mean I've been here every day since Friday and I've just seen the numbers grow and grow.
There is a steady stream of people coming here, coming along the palace gates and then over to Green Park where a lot of the floral tributes have now been moved.
There is literally tens of thousands of floral bouquets that people are really taking in.
Some people spending many hours here today.
But what I have seen today, what's different, is that a people management operation has really swung into action today.
There are barriers everywhere.
There are high-vis security men everywhere.
They're under strict instruction to not even let people cross the road in certain places.
So they're really stepping up the organisation out ahead.
And I think it's probably because they want to get very organised ahead of next Monday.
We're quite some time away from that yet, but the numbers are only going to grow in the next 24 hours.
And obviously, we've seen a lot of focus up in Scotland, understandably, today, but that focus is really going to shift to here tomorrow.
As we know, the Queen's coffin will be flown down around six o'clock to RAF Northolt before being brought here, as you say, to Buckingham Palace to spend the final night in the palace before being moved to Westminster Hall.
So it will be a very emotional day.
It promises to be a very busy day here again.
And I think people are just trying to take in this moment of history.
They're looking at the spectacle of this.
And people are very emotional and they want it to go successfully and they want it to really go well for not only for the Queen herself, but also for the family.
Yeah, I've got to say, I think that so far this has been an unbelievable display of supreme logistics by the people who've been organising this.
And I know they've had plenty of time to prepare, but you can never really prepare for this kind of thing.
It's a one-off in our lifetime.
I'm just reading here, the Prince and Princess of Wales will be at Buckingham Palace when the Queen's coffin arrives tomorrow.
That's just been announced.
And the Queen's four children have been performing the traditional vigil, of course, of the princes around the coffin of the late mother at St. Giles's Cathedral in Edinburgh.
That is now finished.
I think they've just concluded that.
So this is all going, isn't it, Miranda, in a way that I think it is showing the world actually what this country does best.
Nobody does pomp and pageantry, either in good times or bad, in weddings or Jubilee celebrations or funerals or burials, whatever it may be.
We do this kind of thing, I think, in a way that no other country can come close to emulating.
I mean, absolutely.
They've been planning this for years.
We know that.
But I think the general public feels a great sense of unity, a great sense of identity.
And people here want to be together.
They are very, very supportive of the monarchy, it seems.
As I talk to many people here, they are very much behind this.
They want everything to go successfully and they want to play their part in it.
They certainly are doing so here today.
And that is only going to grow in the days ahead, up until the funeral on Monday.
But I should say that the Queen's coffin will lie in state for four days and people will be able to start filing past that coffin from Wednesday at five o'clock until 6.30 on Monday morning.
Yeah, and I think, I mean, thank you, Miranda.
I think people should go down there.
This is a piece of history.
This is your chance to go and just pay your own little tribute to this remarkable person, this great towering figure in this country's history.
You know, I remember the scenes when it actually happened just before I was born, literally, the month before, so Winston Churchill died in 1965, and they were predicting certain numbers of people to turn out.
Apparently, it was just off the charts wrong in terms of underestimating how many the public turned out for Churchill.
I think this is going to dwarf anything, including that, that we've ever seen.
I think by the time we get to the state funeral on Monday, it's going to be the greatest event of its kind we've ever seen in this country.
Kate McCann, Opul Editor, is down at Westminster, where all this will happen, of course, on Monday, and where the Queen will be lying in state for four days.
Kate, what's the atmosphere like?
Because when it was the Jubilee celebrations, it was one of joy and celebration and everything else.
This is not the kind of shock, raw feeling, is it, on the streets when Diana died, when it was so shocking because she was so young, it was a car crash and everything else.
This is a, I think it feels to me watching it all like a very dignified and respectful collection of people up and down the country just wanting to pay respects.
Yeah, Piers, I think it's exactly that.
I was in that session in Westminster Hall that you were talking about this morning when the King was given the address and gave the address to both houses of parliament.
You know, MPs, peers, journalists, there was around 1,500 of us in that hall.
And really, it is one of the most historic and special parts of the whole of the Palace of Westminster.
There really is something about it, even when it's completely empty, maybe particularly then, there's something about that room.
And the feeling in there today was one of warmth.
It felt like there were far fewer people actually than there were.
And yes, this is a king who is grieving the death of his mother, but he was in reasonably good spirits.
He was emotional when God Save the King was sung.
He looked like he was fighting back tears at a couple of different moments.
But he also talked about the weight of history on his shoulders.
And as he was leaving, he was smiling and thanking people and saying hello to those who were gathered there.
And it felt like quite a nice moment.
And I think that's going to continue.
I am actually standing on parts of the route that people are going to queue up when they go and pay their respects to the Queen who will lie in state in Westminster Hall.
And then we know that there are already some people gathering at the other end of this pathway.
They've already started queuing.
We expect that queue will go right back across East London.
It could be 20 or even 30 hours if people queue for that whole distance.
But I get the sense that there will be a really nice atmosphere here.
People are excited.
And you're right, there isn't that outpouring of real raw grief because there is a feeling that the Queen had a great life and that's something that needs to be celebrated as we move through the next week.
Yeah, I completely agree.
Well, let's take a little look at a clip actually from Charles's speech, King Charles III's speech, to give him his correct title, of course, now.
This is to the MPs and peers this morning.
I cannot help but feel the weight of history which surrounds us and which reminds us of the vital parliamentary traditions to which members of both houses dedicate yourselves with such personal commitment for the betterment of us all.
She set an example of selfless duty, which, with God's help and your counsels, I am resolved faithfully to follow.
So, Kay, I think one of the key things, of course, is going to be the relationship between the new king and our new prime minister.
I mean, I keep sort of shaking my head slightly the fact that in one week, in the space of four days, 72 hours, actually, under four days, we had a new prime minister and a new monarch.
I mean, that's probably never going to happen again in history.
So, an extraordinary few days in this country's history.
And that relationship between Liz Truss and Charles III is going to be crucial, isn't it?
Yeah, Piers, if you're shaking your head, imagine how Liz Truss feels.
A few days into that job, she's not even really had her cabinet all together to talk about spending tens of billions, maybe hundreds of billions of pounds on an energy policy.
And now she is thrust into this very public role alongside a new king who, as you say, is also trying to adjust to a big change in circumstances.
I mean, he, of course, has had far longer to prepare for this, and he really understands the role in a way that Liz Truss perhaps can't.
Yes, she's been in cabinet for some time, but she's never been Prime Minister before.
She's never been the one to take those final decisions or the one to walk in front of the camera lenses.
She walked behind King Charles today, leaving Westminster Hall, and her face was fixed.
It looked pained.
It looked like somebody who was under a huge amount of pressure.
And that is hardly surprising because she is.
She will be joining him at those ceremonial occasions in Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Wales over the course of the next couple of days.
And that in itself is a huge ask.
And then she, of course, has her role on the diplomatic stage.
She has all the phone calls she has to conduct with other prime ministers.
All of that that she has to focus on while still now managing her role in what would be a very public grief, but also trying to guide the country through that.
And I think we saw that in the Commons last week with those tributes.
And Boris Johnson, of course, making a really heartfelt speech.
Some suggesting that Liz Truss didn't quite rise to that occasion.
But as you say, you know, two people taking on huge mantles at a very difficult time for the country.
And Piers, it'll be fascinating to see how they work together, whether they decide to go their own way and steer their own course, amongst, of course, the conventions that they have to stick to.
Yeah, and this extraordinary thing about the dignitaries coming for the state funeral, there's going to be, we think, 2,000 in total, but they're being limited to one, I think, one official per country with their spouse or other half.
And you think about that, it means President Biden, for example, and his wife, the First Lady Jill Biden, will be the only representatives from the United States, apparently, at the funeral, because they're going to have to get everybody else in from every other country, because the demand to be there from every country in the world is going to be overwhelming.
But it's a remarkable thing.
And apparently, they're not going to be allowed to come in on private jets.
They have to come into fixed airports or they have to find their own way somewhere into the country.
Won't be allowed to use helicopters into central London.
They've got to use these cars and buses, I think, that are being laid on.
It's going to be a very extraordinary spectacle, watching the most powerful people in the world basically having to slum it a bit by comparison to how some of them would normally be treated.
But part of the reason for that is exactly what you said before, that there has been a history of underestimating the public appetite for coming along and paying their respects and getting involved in occasions like this.
There have been huge estimates for the number of people who will line this route where I'm currently standing over the course of the next couple of days.
But those who are planning it inside government worry that even those numbers, touching on a million, may well be underestimating things.
And I think you're getting a sense of that when you hear them talk about, look, don't bring children to the queue.
It'll be really hard work.
You can't sleep.
You'll have to keep moving.
It could be 20 hours.
There's a lot of expectation management going on.
And there's a huge policing operation too.
In the time I've been stood here, we've seen a number of police officers walking up and down this route, volunteers and hi-vis vests.
That's putting pressure actually on a number of other events that would usually be policed, including football matches, which we've seen a number of them cancelled.
There'll be police stationed in railway stations and other transport areas.
And there is a lot of concern that there could be a potential for protesters to try and get involved, to mark the route.
And also the pressure that that will just put on London as a transport hub.
New King and Queen Moments00:07:28
It struggles sometimes at the best of times.
Strikes have been called off.
But all of those people flocking here, trying to pay their respects, it's not just keeping the city moving, but it's also making sure that people feel that everything has gone off well.
This operation has been planned for months and months and months, but you cannot plan for the scale of outpouring of grief that I think we are going to see here.
And there is some worry and some tension about that.
Yeah, Kate McCann, thank you very much.
I appreciate it.
Well, I'm joined now by the Sun's Royal Photographer, Arthur Edwards, political journalist Ava Santina, and talk TV presenter Richard Tit.
Arthur, great to have you.
I really, I thought of you actually very soon after I heard this news because it hit me hard when I took a phone call from someone, friend of the new king now and his queen consort, who just said the queen has passed.
And it was before it had been announced or confirmed.
And I felt a real, you know, like someone had punched me.
And I remember quite quickly thinking, I wonder how you were, because you've been such a huge part of covering the lives of the royals and in particular. this queen.
How did you feel when you heard?
How did you hear the news?
Well, I heard the news on the BBC, I think.
But I was up at Dunfrey's house with the Prince the night before at a dinner there.
And, you know, it was jovial, it was a great evening.
And then the following day, I just saw everybody clear out the hotel quickly.
So there was, and it was, then I knew that something had happened.
And then, of course, when we got the news, it was, yeah, I felt for the prince, actually, because, like you were saying, it's difficult for him trying to cope with the loss of his mother.
I mean, your mother's your best friend, right?
Okay, who you are in this world.
Your mother's your best friend.
And he just lost his father, not just lost his father, but now he had to go and put a brave face on everywhere.
And I just think he's done a brilliant job.
And that speech he made, and I think he's made a great start.
I totally agree.
And I think he's been incredibly moved and encouraged by the warmth of the reaction from the public.
Because he must have been slightly wondering, once his mother died, this unbelievably popular monarch, the greatest in my view in history, he must have been just wondering, I wonder how the public will react to me.
But the answer has been with enormous warmth.
And I think that's really helped him through what has been a professional difficult period where he's got to become this new monarch, but also personally, when he's grief-stricken.
We saw Princess Anne in the car behind the hearse yesterday for a few hours, looking completely anguished.
And you understand why she'd lost both her parents.
So has King Charles.
And yet we're expecting him to just get out there and be the king.
I mean, I couldn't even imagine being that strong, actually, in that situation.
Well, I mean, he always said, you know, history will judge me.
And now he's come out now as the king.
And people are seeing him for the man he is, the man I've been working with for the last time.
What is he like, Arthur?
He's a fantastic person.
He knows everybody in the world.
He knows every prime minister, every head of state.
He's so well connected.
And he's just travelled the world.
I mean, we were in Rwanda in June with all the heads of government there.
And they all paid great homage to him.
I remember one person get down on their knees before him when he came in there from Papua New Guinea.
And, you know, he is, I just, the reason I still work here is because I work with this man and the queen, the new queen, Camilla.
They're just fabulous people.
Really, that's really carry on.
Oh, yeah.
I just, I really enjoy it.
If I've got a job with, say, the Prince, if I had a job with the King, the next job, Wichita will be probably on Wednesday when they follow the coffin.
I will look to him, but he will be solid.
Well, you had an amazing little moment with him after his mother died, after the Queen passed.
And it was captured by a photographer and you had just a short exchange with him.
But tell me what he said to you.
Well, we came off the plane and I was the only photographer that the RAF lady took that.
And he just came up to me and he said, you're okay?
And I said, yes, sir.
I said, I'm very sorry about your loss.
And he said, well, it had to happen someday.
I think, yeah, it had to happen one day, he said, yeah.
And I, and then he just patted me on the arm and you're okay.
And he went off.
I mean, Arthur, what a moment for you.
Yeah.
And for him, because he recognised that you would probably be feeling very upset about this.
But for you to have the new king of this country actually inquiring as to how you're feeling and having that exchange with you is a remarkable thing for anybody.
Yeah, and on the Wednesday night at the party, we were laughing together.
You know, we were joking together.
There was like, you know, 24 hours later, there he is.
He's coping and he's not worried about me.
And I just, you know, I said, fine.
But I was a bit overcome by it.
Are you surprised, Arthur, that, I mean, if you go back, it was 25 years last week since Diana's death.
And if you remember, as I know you do, but if the people watching, in the aftermath of that, a lot of hostility towards Charles and Camilla, who many people blame for the breakup of the marriage.
I never thought it was as straightforward as that at all.
But here we are now, 25 years later, they'd be married for 17 years.
It's extraordinary to me to watch their pathway back to public popularity in the way that it's gone.
And very encouraging.
Well, just did it for hard work, you know, put their head down and got on with it.
Certainly the new queen, I was going to say the Duchess, but Camilla, she just put everything into it.
She took on the over 200 patronages and she's just tirelessly as well.
But the most important thing is she supports the prince.
Like, for instance, when they got off the plane at Northolk the other day, he came down and she stayed back in the cabin until he met the station commander.
And then she came down, you know, and she's done it all the way.
She's never ever hogged the limelight.
In fact, I just, she is just perfect for him.
I think Camilla's great, well, the Queen Consort to give her her correct title.
And in fact, I saw a BBC instruction earlier that you should stop talking about the late Queen as the Queen, because actually Camilla is now automatically Queen Consort.
And that should be a title for her.
And these things are important.
I've known the Queen Consort a long time and got to know her quite well, actually, and sat next to her at dinner parties and things like that.
She's an incredibly down-to-earth, decent woman, actually.
She never lost a common touch.
She never did.
No.
And she's never, she has that effortless sense of non-entitlement, which the Queen had, in the sense that you never feel like she feels she's entitled to any of this.
You know, she loved this man.
And if you think about it, in a way, it's been one of the great love stories.
It's endured everything.
Absolutely.
And there's no doubt to me that Camilla has made him happier than anybody else.
Absolutely.
And settle and calm and much more calm about approaching things.
You know, he had a little bit of a sparky temper, you know.
I've not seen that for a long while.
No.
I mean, not for a long while.
And I mean, I've had some serious telling offs from him, you know.
Well, you have.
You've also had some great moments, Arthur.
And I want to play you one.
This is from 2018, where Charles gives his views on you.
He's a very good photographer, a jolly good bloke, I think, and a very special person.
And none of our overseas visits, I can assure you that something would be the same without Arthur Edwards there.
Charles's Temper and Camilla's Strength00:07:49
And I get more and more worried because he's a bit further advanced than we are.
And I was worried about the number of cameras and bits of equipment that he carries in boiling hot countries.
So anyway, Arthur, I'm so grateful to for all your kindness today.
I mean, that's a pretty remarkable.
That man's the king of this country now.
Yeah, I know.
Paying that tribute to him.
Yeah, that chokes me up a bit when he said that.
Yeah, because, I mean, I didn't expect that.
I made a little speech at welcome.
This was his 70th birthday party we held for him at the Spencer House.
And I welcomed him and I talked about, you know, it wasn't always like this, you know, there were times when it was a little bit hostile, you know, when Kelvin was the editor.
But, you know, what happened, I started to see what this man was doing.
And I listened to his speeches.
I was there when he was begging the president of Brazil to stop ripping up the rainforest.
And if he thinks he's got away with it now, I don't think Prince Charles is going to give up.
He'll be giving the Prime Minister a little bit of his mind about that, you know, about the environment.
He probably won't be able to say anything publicly, but he certainly won't give up.
Richard, what's your take been on, in other words, with you on the night, of course, and that was a very sad evening indeed.
As we've moved on now, we're beginning to look ahead as well as recognise the enormous contribution this late queen made.
As we look ahead to King Charles III, are you as encouraged as I am when I think Arthur is by the start he's made?
Completely appears.
It's as though he's grown a foot taller in strength, in confidence.
And I think he's drawing strength and reassurance from his subjects.
And actually, we his subjects are also drawing comfort and reassurance from his strength and for how he's conducting himself for the way that this is just seamlessly transitioning from the late Queen, from all of her extraordinary achievements.
But actually, I really do think this is going to give the whole nation real confidence.
I draw huge strength from it, much more than I think any of us could possibly have expected.
Ava, do you see yourself as a subject?
Do people your age even like the idea of being anyone's subject?
And is that an issue for the future of the monarchy?
I think it's a difficult question at the moment in this 10-day period of mourning because, I mean, look, it's a subject steeped in history, which I think is fascinating.
And I think that a lot of people can have massive appreciation for.
But, you know, I don't think that we also need to feel as subjects.
I think it's perfectly okay to be quite sad about the Queen and to appreciate her legacy, but also say, do you know, there's quite a few things around the monarchy that I don't really appreciate.
Like what in your case?
Well, today, for example, I didn't really appreciate police officers using the 2022 police bill to drag protesters off the streets and say that we weren't allowed to object to the monarchy.
I mean, I didn't appreciate that.
I mean, I didn't like what they were saying, but I absolutely defend their right to protest.
And there are a body of people in this country who will agree with some of these protests.
Let's take a look at some of the protests today.
All right, ****!
At least I've got a tactic, girls!
I'm gonna stop it!
Disgusting!
I've done nothing wrong!
Now, you see, it's interesting that particular incident, because I think it's completely disrespectful to have done that anywhere near the Queen's hearse, obviously.
However, I also thought it was a big risk by the royal family to let Prince Andrew, after all that's gone on with him in the last year, walk through the streets in that way.
Now, they would say, and I understand this, he was a beloved son of the Queen, and she famously described him to people sometimes, apparently as her favoured son.
I'm not sure if that's actually true, but that was what was reported.
But notwithstanding that, it's only a few months ago that he paid off a woman who'd accused him of sexually abusing her millions and millions of dollars, having said he'd go to court and clear his name.
Is it irrational for some people to think this is completely inappropriate?
Well, I mean, he didn't pay.
Let's be clear about that.
We paid.
We, the taxpayer, paid that.
And, you know, but I would say that it was disrespectful to her and her legacy, and actually to the people who love the Queen, for him to walk behind the carriage.
I thought that was really disrespectful, actually.
You know, I think it's really...
I'm sorry.
He is a grieving son for his mother.
I think it's mean-spirited.
I think it's heartless.
Frankly, you know, we a nation are grieving, but they are a family.
A family in grief.
I think his siblings would have wanted to be a family.
Okay, but in any other situation, would a family walk through the entire nation to pay their respects?
So they don't need to be there for the entire funeral.
This is the royal family.
And yes, but that I think is a sign of the openness and the transparency with which Charles.
So going to be open and transparent.
We could talk about the fact that a lot of people have had to cancel the funerals for their own mothers because of the Queen and a respect and homage of the Queen.
And there are a lot of people at the moment who are actually having to rent coffins because they can't afford to buy them.
So if we're going to talk about respect, we should talk about it across the board and we should have a little bit of nuance.
Well, I think that actually it's about people's love and appreciation and devotion to our monarch for to the queen.
What is your view of this Andrew situation?
I mean, I didn't like, for example, that he wore his military uniform for the vigil.
Apparently, it's the only part of the entire week where he'll wear a military uniform.
But if you're in one of the regiments that he did represent, I know there's a lot of ill feeling towards him from members of those regiments that he still seems like he's representing them after what he did.
Now, what do you think?
Well, look, I was there in Portsworth when he came back after the Falklands War, and we were cheering him.
And we laid his life on the line for this country.
I've worked with him for years and I really like him.
And he's made a big mistake in his life, which was giving that interview to Emily Maitland.
I don't care what you say.
I mean, if he'd have said to her, I did do that, I was lonely, it was a mistake, and I apologise, it would have none of this trouble.
But the fact that he lied was the mistake.
Well, hang on, Arthur, that may not be the only mistake.
I just want to finish this.
My point is, that may not be the only mistake he made.
I mean, let's be clear.
He paid a woman to avoid having his supposed day in court.
He paid her millions of dollars.
It may be that he was guilty of what she accused him of.
Otherwise, why are you paying someone millions of dollars?
We don't know that, and we're never going to find out now.
But it may not have been his only mistake to do that interview.
Well, okay, fine.
All right.
But it was highlighted he made a mistake in his life.
We've all made mistakes in our life.
We'd like to be highlighted.
Every one of us.
You meet this guy.
I've never, ever had to pay $12.
We haven't had a mistake.
No, we wouldn't have to do that because you're not a prince of the realm.
That's why.
And the fact is that, you know, I think he should be walking behind his mother's coffin.
I think he should.
Of course I do.
I mean, it's God, he's grieving.
He's broken hearted.
Should people who are angry about it be treated in the way that protests are.
I don't think people should be allowed to sort of disrupt that comment.
Sorry, I thought you were going to go on the other side of it.
No, although it.
No, no, no.
I agree with Piers.
You have a right to say it, but there are times when you don't do it.
Well, I think it's wrong.
I think it's inappropriate to do it the way they did it.
But I don't think they should start being hauled away, manhandled or arrested.
Frankie the Queen Mother00:07:43
Arrested.
As some of them have.
I mean, are we really living in a country where people get arrested for exercising their right to free speech to protest about a monarchy?
It's a fine balance judgment.
But look, the reality is, you know, this is a democracy.
And in a sense, I think they've got the right to grieve as a family.
It's not Prince Andrew's choice.
He's got a right to grieve with his family.
You can't argue that they fought for our freedom or, you know, our democracy has fought for our freedom.
You can't argue that he fought for our freedom.
And then when someone says something you don't particularly like, arrest them.
Okay, listen, we're going to come back to this later in the programme.
But for now, just stay with me, panel.
Next time, the Queen was often at her happiest when she was at the races.
I'll be joined by two people who rode and trained more than 100 winners for the late Queen, Frankie Dottori and Nikki Hens.
One of Queen Elizabeth II's greatest passions was horses.
She took up riding aged three and got in the saddle as recently as last year.
She also famously loved, of course, horse racing.
Joining me now are two people who rode and trained more than 100 winners for the late Queen, Frankie DeTorre, who rode more than 50 winners for the Queen, and Nikki Henderson, who was the late monarch's racehorse trainer for more than two decades.
Well, thank you both so much for joining me.
I know how much both of you meant to Her Majesty, the late Queen.
Frankie, where were you when you heard that the Queen had died and how did you feel in that moment?
Well, obviously Thursday I was, sorry, was Thursday was at Doncaster and I heard the news that Buckingham Palace made a statement and straight away we knew things were not good.
And then in the evening it was announced that she passed away and look, I know that I met the Queen for 30 years and every time I've seen her she has this horde of immortality.
So when the news came that she passed away it was a feeling of shock, a feeling of emptiness.
Not just me, all the people around me, the whole country really was, yeah, I mean, we were not prepared for this.
And, you know, I know she was 96 and you know, but nobody was expecting it just all of a sudden.
And yeah, it was really, really, really took everybody by surprise.
And, you know, it's been now three days.
There is a sense of emptiness in the country, a lot of silence.
And yeah, we really tried to cope with it, really.
She was England's mother, but really we're part of this country and we feel part of it.
And we try to deal with it.
Nikki, you were formerly the Queen Mother's trainer and then the Queen inherited her horses.
You spent so much time around these two great women.
I had the pleasure of meeting both of them and they were indomitable women in many ways.
But their love of horses and horse racing was very real, wasn't it?
Well, it was spectacular, I think, because, first of all, we all know the work and the duty that the Queen and the Queen Mother herself beforehand had put into the country.
And horse racing and the horses, I think, really overall, were her one little downtime hobby, pleasure, something she really, really enjoyed, incredibly knowledgeable.
And it was a very big part of her life.
Racing is only a very small community, really, in the big picture.
But she was our patron, our best friend.
And Racy was very, very lucky to have her for all those years, you know, as the biggest supporter and somebody who got so much pleasure out of it.
And she just loved the horses.
I think the people were part of it as well.
But, you know, everybody will have very, very happy memories of some great days.
What was your greatest?
What was your greatest moment with her, Nikki, when you look back?
I think really one just has to say it was an enormous privilege and honor to be there with having had the horses for the Queen Mother.
Queen Mother really only had the jumpers and the Queen had flat horses so they sort of had their own separate identities there.
When the Queen Mother died, the Queen inherited the horses.
She probably inherited me as well.
I don't know whether she wanted me, but I was there.
And we had some wonderful days.
And I think just, I think a lot of the memories would be, I think the breeding side of it is what she really enjoyed.
She loved the stud, the planning of the matings, as we would call it, which stallions the mares would go to.
And then the foals being born and the dreams that were then born with them.
And I think the greatest pleasures were probably actually wandering around Sandringham stud, where they all lived and were born and bred.
And, you know, looking forward to the future, looking at horses that were not going to run for three or four years.
And we were only doing that earlier in the year.
And she was planning for five years' time.
And I think, as Frankie said, I think we all thought she was immortal, but sadly, nobody is.
And, you know, therefore we have this enormous void.
And but this wonderful country that has she served so brilliantly, but now you see how much she meant to them.
And I think that has just been the last few days have been unbelievable.
I completely agree.
Frankie, you had 50 winners.
Can you remember one as being the standout where you had your great moment with Her Majesty?
Listen, I know Her Majesty I knew her for 30 years and up to the last time I met her, I was absolutely petrified to meet her.
About every time I met her, she made you feel welcome and she made you, you know, you had this sense of great feeling after you met her.
And obviously, my biggest win for her when I was in my 20s, I was all a young boy.
But the feeling then you got met her, it was unbelievable.
And you never knew how to kind of conduct yourself.
You didn't know if you wanted to shake her hands or to bow, but she made you feel so comfortable.
And it was always, you know, even after 30 years, you always had the beautiful mystery and well-being factor that when you met her.
She was a wonderful, wonderful person.
And if you lost by a tight head on a red-hot favourite owned by the Queen Frankie, were there threats to take you to the Tower of London?
Well, I did actually a few times, but she was always a great loser.
Maybe she was burning inside it, but she never showed it.
She was always conducting herself in an amazing way.
And I'm sure Nick at the Fuse is the loss for Her Majesty.
Harry, Meghan, and the Rift00:15:21
And is that right, Nick?
Well, she was, you rightly say, not only, she was a very gracious winner.
And I think we'd all sort of remember the pictures of when Esther won the Ascot Gold Cup.
I mean, the pure joy that she had out of that.
But then the wonderful thing was when things went wrong, and they do with horses, they're fickle creatures and they can't talk.
And she understood them.
So if things went wrong or horses, well, lots of horses don't win.
So they can't always, we're always trying to get them to win.
But she got enormous pleasure out of winning, but she was the most fantastic loser or the bearer of bad news.
She understood the horses and the people that were with them and she just made it very, very easy for us.
Well there's no doubt that you two probably brought more pleasure to Her Majesty than probably anyone I know actually because the thing she loved was horse racing and you kept bringing her winners time and again.
So gentlemen thank you so much for both of you for joining me tonight to pay tribute to Her Majesty.
It will have meant a lot to her I'm sure what you've been saying.
So thank you very much.
Thank you.
Well coming up.
The former FAB FOUR, as they were called, showed a united front when they agreed well wishes.
But is this just a temporary truce on a much more deep-rooted rift?
Should Harry and Meghan be forgiven for all that's happened, or will Harry's forthcoming tell-all book actually make things a hell of a lot worse?
We'll talk about that after the break.
Well William Harry, Kate and Meghan came together to view tributes to the Queen on Saturday at Windsor in a show of apparent unity, but after the way the Sussexes have bowed mouthed the monarchy for the last couple of years, should they be forgiven and welcomed back, or will Harry's forthcoming tell-all book actually make things a lot worse?
Joining me on discuss this, former Royal Protection Officer Ken Wall, family law barrister Paula Roan, Adrian and the sons of royal photographer Arthur Robbers are still with me, Ken.
This is a hard one, isn't it?
Because my understanding of what actually happened was that Prince William, now the new Prince Of Wales, could see that the entire week was going to get taken up with stories of the rift and who was going to sit where at the various ceremonies and so on, and he thought he'd get ahead of it is my understanding and he texted Harry and said, we're going to go on a walk about, why don't you come as well and let's just try and diffuse things?
And Harry agreed, and then they spent 45 minutes getting ready because they weren't expecting it, and then they all went out together.
There was no doubt.
a powerful image of unity, but I don't think anyone should be too fooled that this actually is the end of the problem.
And one of the biggest issues is this tell-all book that Harry has written, which is due to be published by Penguin Random House.
We don't know when, potentially even in the next couple of months.
And if it doesn't, it's really critical of the man who's now king, his father, and it's critical of the woman who's now queen consul, and it's critical of the heir to the throne, and the Prince of Wales, Prince William.
This is going to cause incredible new damage, probably worse than anything they've done already.
What do you think of this?
Well, I mean, I agree, I agree with what you say.
I mean if, if what you say were to appear in this book and, and if this book were to be published within the next or the foreseeable future and, and if that's what's written, that it is going to cause, you know, extraordinary damage.
My personal belief is I think that you know this will be put on hold for the, for the immediate future.
Well, i've written a column tonight for the NEW YORK POST saying I think he should cancel.
I think you should rip up the contract and cancel it, because he's given a statement today, Harry, a very heartwarming statement about his grandmother, as you would expect.
They were close.
But you can't get away from the hurt that she must have experienced in the last two years over all the shenanigans coming out of California.
And towards the end of the statement, he says he now wants to honour his father, King Charles III.
How do you honour the new king with a book which he says is going to be searingly honest and accurate, which of course is what we were told the Oprah interview was, but turned out not to be.
I think you could be right.
I mean, calling for this to be pulped would probably be a good idea, but I think when you think what the prince, what the king has said now that he, you know, wants Harry, I think, really to be part of this new plan of his, you know, to take the monarchy forward.
I mean, he said this some years ago before we had this speaker.
But does Harry want to be part of it or does Megan in particular actually want to carry on having their royal cake and eat it in California and to not have to abide by the rules of doing any duty or service or anything like that to do exactly what they want to make themselves very rich.
But one thing for certain, I mean, look at the pictures of Harry in the last 24 hours.
You know, he doesn't look happy in this role.
I mean, certainly, I think he was pleased to be there to show respect for his grandmother and deed with his wife Megan.
But the whole point is that somehow there has to be a deal struck.
Either we're going to say goodbye forever, and I know that you've said that the title should be taken away as well.
I think so.
At some point.
Well, Paul, let's bring you in here because you're a supporter of them.
You know, I just think the two things aren't compatible.
You can't keep royal titles and exploit them in the way that they're doing for personal enrichment from the other side of the world.
It just doesn't fly, I don't think, for most people in this country.
Interestingly, as I'm talking to you, Oprah Winfrey has said that Queen Elizabeth II's death could be an opportunity for peacemaking.
Speaking at the Toronto Film Festival, she said, well, this is what I think.
I think in all families, you know, my father passed recently this summer.
When all families come together for a common ceremony, the ritual of burying your dead is an opportunity for peacemaking.
And hopefully there will be that.
She told that to Extra.
So obviously there's that opportunity.
And obviously it was encouraging to see the four of them coming out.
And obviously everybody would like them to all get on and to be promoting the new king and the new monarchy.
But the problem is I don't think that this picture is the end of the problem.
And I agree with you, actually, on this point, Piers.
It's not the complete picture.
But what we do have is we have a positive progression.
We have a come in together.
Because what, unfortunately, grieving can do is it can also tear you apart.
But we haven't seen that.
Well, Harry, apparently, look, you don't know quite what to believe in the reports, but Harry reportedly went up to Balmoral with the rest of the family and left in the morning and never spoke to William.
This is as the Queen was dying.
I find that an extraordinary if that is true.
But if that is true, it shows the scale of the rift.
But in terms of moving forward, I'd actually like to think that King Charles had something to do with this as well.
Apparently he didn't.
It made very clear it was all William's idea.
His speech, I think, really reached out to many of those watching.
And I would be surprised if, therefore, on the sidelines, he didn't play a role.
He is their father, after all.
And undoubtedly you know all these people very well.
You know Charles extremely well, William extremely well.
This has been a hell of a mess.
And I feel quite angry that this was all what the Queen had to deal with actually in the last two years.
The last thing she would have wanted, particularly when Philip got ill and then died.
I mean, the last thing she wanted was her grandchildren at war and everything else.
What do you make of it?
What did you make of the rapprochement for this picture of them coming out together?
And what do you think the answer is going forward?
Well when the prince said he loved Harry and Meghan, that shook me as well in his speech.
And then when they, well I mean when Meghan got out the car, I was amazed.
But obviously William has got to sort of do something about it.
And he spoke to his brother and said, look, let's make a combined effort here.
But they did it because if Meghan had turned up for the funeral on Monday, all the papers have been talking about Meghan.
And Prince of Wales, Prince of Wales, the king doesn't want that.
He wants, it's all about... the queen.
There were no distractions.
Whether they'll get back together, I don't know.
I mean, there's a big, strong rift between those.
Huge rift.
Ken, I mean, you were Dinah's bodyguard.
She would have hated what's happened between her two sons, wouldn't she?
Well, yeah, she would have done.
But I've said before, Piers, you know, what this rift needed was someone to broker a deal or someone to sort this out.
And, you know, Dinah had gone through, you know, said her short life, you know, with a great deal of anxiety, a great deal of unhappiness, and would have seen the problems here and would have seen the long-term problems here.
Because the problem is really, you know, nobody really wants, quite frankly, I know your view and the view of many thousands others, but they need someone to combine this or to mend it, to find a solution, to put it right.
And I think Dinah would have been the person to deal with that.
Look, I don't think it's that complicated.
It is complicated.
What is complicated in the sense that, I mean, Paula, when they left the Sussexes, when they left the royal family in Britain in January 2020, it seems forever ago now, but when they left, they said that whatever happened, they were going to uphold the values of Her Majesty, even though if they weren't going to be doing duty on her behalf.
I don't think even their wildest supporter could say that their behaviour in the last two years has upheld the values of Her Majesty the Queen.
I don't think that's fair, Piers.
Really?
Because what we know about making honesty is that they've continued to be very dutiful and to serve themselves.
To the countless charities who they continue to be.
But they've been enriching themselves to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars.
They've been working to enrich him.
Well, no, she have to hurt him.
The money goes into their back pocket.
They've been criticised for living off their royal title.
Call me cynical.
And I do.
Yeah, but the work that they do for their charities is designed to reinforce their royal status, which they then flees to the highest bidders.
They've been paid a fortune by Netflix.
There's this documentary coming out about their love story, which if that contains more damaging allegations about the royal family, will be another chip to this new king and the monarchy.
Now, you say damaging allegations about the royal family.
What we are actually talking about is a son talking about his hero.
No, you're talking about her.
We're talking about a daughter-in-law talking about her pain.
Yeah, it's something that isn't unusual in any family.
I'm not sure how painful it is to take your prince from his country back to California and make yourself super rich trading off your newly found royal status.
I'm not sure how painful that is.
I think.
Politically to most millions of people in Britain who are currently on the breadline in this cost of living crisis.
Her pain, I think, needs to be put into some perspective.
Well, the pain she's a family.
The pain she calls the royal family.
The pain she's caused the royal family and Harry's behaviours calls the royal family, to me outweighs their own little local difficulties.
The suggestion that you can have one without the other.
Well, when you call the royal family a bunch of royal family a bunch of callous racists, but you don't actually produce any evidence to prove it, I have a problem with that.
And when you carry on spewing nonsense, like Meghan Markle recently just said in this interview last week, that she had, you know, thank God her children aren't at school in England because they'd have 50 paparazzi every day.
We know that's not going to happen.
There are rules to stop that happening.
Well, it wouldn't happen with the English press, but we know that it would happen with the internet.
Final words.
Do you think they're going to all get reconciled anytime soon?
Absolutely.
Should Harry get rid of his book?
No.
Really?
Wow.
Ken?
Because I do think that a lot has been said about the way that King Charles is going to take this monarchy forward.
I think what he will do, he will find a way of reconciling Harry with the rest of the royal family.
Quite what that will be, I don't know.
Should he pulp the book?
I don't think he should pulp the book at this stage.
I think what he should do is actually not do anything with it, but reflect upon it and realise, seriously, what damage that might do.
Okay, Arthur, last word to you.
You pump the book, yeah.
And I think, you know, the quicker Harry gets back here and starts supporting his father and his brother, the better.
Whether she comes in or not.
See, I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.
But, you know, thank you for coming in.
I know what this must have meant to you this last few days, so I really appreciate you coming in.
Okay, nice.
And great that you're carrying on working with our new king because he'll need you.
I'd like to see a familiar face.
Ken, Paula, thank you both very much.
Good evening.
Well, coming next, do these scenes of pomp and ceremony still have a place in modern Britain?
Some think they don't.
I'll be debating that with the former head of the British Army, Lord Dannett, does, former Labour MP Stephen Pound, who doesn't and thinks we should move on.
Well, welcome back to our extended Piers Morgan tonight.
Most of the nation is in mourning, of course, following the death of Queen Elizabeth II.
For some, scenes of pomp and pageantry no longer have a place in modern Britain.
With the funeral of the late Queen, likely to cost millions of pounds.
A coronation for the new king expected next year.
Is it time to reconsider this kind of tradition?
Well, joining me now is the former head of the British Army, Lord Dannett, former Labour MP Stephen Pound.
Welcome to both of you.
Stephen Pound, you're not a fan of all the pomp and pageantry.
I'm a huge fan of it, so why aren't you?
I think we're in danger of becoming mawkish about this and overly sentimental.
Look, I think...
What about the death of the greatest monarch in our history?
The Queen would want dignity and sobriety, and she'd actually want something calm and sober and serious.
But she did believe in pomp and pageantry.
She understood the value of that to the wider world.
I think to a point, I think where I actually differ with maybe public opinion, not for the first time, is this sort of Dianification of business, these acres and acres of flowers.
And it's almost as if people, it's like an arms race of sentimentality.
People felt like the Queen was our kind of national grandmother.
The people standing by the side of the road between Balmoral and Dundee, that was respectful and it was dignified.
And I think the Queen's...
What's wrong with leaving flowers outside gates?
When people die, when anybody dies, people sent.
When you've got people weeping outside their house.
Maybe they're genuinely upset.
I shed a tear when the Queen died.
Were you not moved by the death of this?
I'm immensely, immensely moved.
But on the other hand, I don't want to see her legacy subsumed into this sort of national grief where people seem to...
Rob, but talk specifically about the pomp and pageantry, because to me, you can't have a monarchy in a low-rent way.
You either do it properly with all the bells and whistles, and then you get all the tourism it comes in, which pays for it all.
Either you do it properly or there's no point having it.
Well, that's not what they'd say in Sweden.
It's not what they say in the Netherlands.
What's the name of the monarchs of those two countries?
Agnetha and the other one.
Cornwall and Future Defense00:04:10
Right.
We got half of the ride.
But my point being, nobody knows who they are.
Yeah.
Yeah, but they probably do in the Netherlands.
But yeah.
I've got a lot of ABBA or something.
Bill Hillmina.
Right, well, let me bring in, Lord Dunn.
You've been sitting quietly listening to this.
I have.
Too much mawkishness, too much pomp and pageantry.
We shouldn't be going down this road.
What do you think?
Well, actually, I think we're doing it just right at the present moment.
My wife and I were at Sandringham this morning, where there are a lot of flowers, but it was a very respectful...
There wasn't a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth and whatever.
It was very respectful.
People were being very quiet.
They were talking to each other.
They were talking to people they'd never met before.
And everybody was just making the obvious comments that here was a wonderful queen.
And the other thing that people are saying is, particularly with the proclamations on Saturday and the proclamations around the country yesterday, just how well His Majesty King Charles is fitting into the role.
And I think that's really reassuring to me.
But also a lot of the pomp and pageantry is military driven, right?
It's the armed forces at their best.
This shows off, I think, a large part of what the monarch is, the commander-in-chief of the armed forces.
That's why I like it as well.
It's about the defense of the realm.
It's about the country.
It matters to me.
Well, it's part of the fabric of our nation.
I mean, we do these things.
We actually do them very well.
We do them, I think it's fair to say, probably better than anybody else.
And your earlier point, just to play it back to you, because we do it so well, it does attract an awful lot of people to come, and it actually is very good for tourism.
It is.
That isn't a driver in its own right, but it's a very good spin-off and very useful.
Stephen Partner, I mean, the point is, we can go the American way.
We could become a republic, and you could have presidents who last four or eight years.
None of them have come anywhere near the popularity of this queen.
No, no, I couldn't agree more.
The interesting thing is, I argue.
You don't want to abolish the monarchy.
No, I think in the long term, the monarchy will wither away as we know it in the present time.
We're seeing no sign of this with the scenes in the last years.
I think the idea of a constitutional monarchy where every member of parliament has to swear an oath of allegiance to her majesty or his majesty, their heirs and successors.
Everything we do is done in the king or the queen's name.
I cannot see that surviving for much longer.
But like Albert, you know, the Prime Minister of Australia, and like Jacinda Arden, I think this is not the time to be talking about it.
This is not the time to consider the future of the monarchy.
This is the time to actually...
Well, actually, I think it is the time to consider the future of the monarchy because we now have a new monarch.
And what's a better time?
I mean, it seems to me the perfect time for me to vote.
Let's the dust settle.
And let's see how.
I mean, at the moment, we have a monarch in King Charles who has actually, in some ways, broken the mold of being the Prince of Wales.
He's got involved, we all know about the spider letters and the bits and pieces.
And we always had an edema.
I mean, we paid for someone to squeeze his toothpaste and he stayed out of politics.
He's crossed that line.
Whether he will now continue.
What was he wrong about?
Yeah.
I think to actually involve himself in town planning.
What's he been wrong about out of interest?
Well, I mean, I have to say, his development in Cornwall, you know, the idea of this particular, his idea of creating these sort of little poundvilles, or there they call them in Cornwall.
I think he got it wrong because he had this sort of Quinlanteri idea that...
But on big picture things like climate change and stuff, he's been proven right, hasn't he?
I think he was right to, you know, as...
Right to raise the alarm a lot earlier than many politicians.
Prince Philip did it even sooner than him.
Prince Philip was there absolutely.
I think they're right to do this.
He may be challenged to do it as a monarch.
As Prince of Wales, I thought he was right.
I think that's the point.
I think actually he's already signalled that actually King Charles is going to behave differently.
He'd hey.
As Prince of Wales.
And I think that's really, really important.
And to be honest, he's spent the last 50 years, 70 years, waiting to be king.
And I think it's been very interesting that he has got himself involved.
You know, the spidery handwriting letters to ministers, asking questions.
I've read a few of those letters.
I thought he was completely entitled to do that.
And actually, it showed he was diligent and he cared.
And what he was really doing was challenging ministers to make right policy decisions.
But he's already signalled that actually that way of behavior he cannot continue with.
It'll be difficult for him.
And I think the only chance he will get will be on the weekly audience for the Prime Minister.
Ukrainians Prevail Eventually00:04:18
Exactly.
And it'll be interesting to be a fly on the wall.
It will, but we're never going to know.
Well, we aren't.
And that's the one leak-proof conversation that goes on in the United Kingdom on a weekly basis.
And I reckon there'll be very interesting conversations.
So do I, but we're never going to find out.
He won't hold back.
No, but we're never going to find out if he wielded influence or not.
I think in a way you do because of the soft power of being the monarch.
Let me ask you, Lordan, while I've got you.
This is obviously the biggest story in this country, but what's happening in Ukraine in the last 48 hours is no less important.
There seems to have been a massive shift in what's going on there, where the Russians seem to be dominant, but now they seem to be in retreat in large parts of the Donbass region.
What do you make of this?
And is it possible that the Ukrainians could actually win this war now?
Well, there's two questions.
Let's just take the first one first.
It's fascinating what is happening.
What the Ukrainians have managed to do is pull off what I would call an operational level degree of surprise.
They've talked for the last four, five or six weeks about a counter-offensive in the south in the Kherson, sort of north of Crimea area, such that the Russians brought some of their better troops from the Donbass to reinforce around Kherson.
That having happened, the Ukrainians with their heavy equipment provided by the West, their better-trained soldiers, have attacked vigorously around Kharkiv in the north.
And they've broken through.
And they've broken so far through that they've caused mayhem in the Russian rear area.
So what will now happen?
Well, is the worry that when he's, as people have always thought, if Putin gets cornered, he's so invested in this war now that if he gets cornered, he might do something like launch a tactical nuclear strike.
We may have thought he was crazy to attack in the first place in February.
Actually, I don't think that's right.
I think he does retain a sufficient degree of rationality to know that the balance of mutual destruction, which was what held the peace, as it were, during the Cold War, is still there.
Even if he thinks if he loses the war, he may not survive.
He's got other options.
The other option that he's got is to stop calling it a special military operation, to actually declare war.
That changes the law in Russia.
He can then bring in conscription.
He can actually mobilize the rest of Russia's military.
So he either goes all in or he has to basically fail.
He's got to go all in or he probably will fail.
I mean, a month ago, I couldn't see how we could be in the situation that we are now.
The world might say the Russians have got to leave Ukraine.
They would never go voluntarily.
I thought the Ukrainians could never kick them out.
And the West would never put a sort of Kuwait-style operation together to throw them out.
But what we're seeing, now that America is engaged with other NATO nations, particularly the Americans, they're barreling so much equipment.
They are.
Really good high-tech.
And credit to President Biden.
Absolutely.
And when Uncle Sam gets himself engaged, he makes a difference.
And that's what we're seeing actually with the Ukrainians and British support as well.
It is making a difference.
My worry, just at the present moment, is the Ukrainians, in their enthusiasm, will overreach themselves and take a bloody nose.
So I think this operation will develop a certain distance and then it will stop.
There'll be a certain amount more maneuver before winter comes.
It'll probably go into the deep freeze over winter and then we'll see where we are in the south.
You know what?
I was in Ukraine a few weeks ago and I don't think I've ever met a more determined people.
And the one common refrain from all of them, whether it was the mayor of Kyiv, Vitaly Klitschko, the former heavyweight champion, whether it was President Zelensky, or whether it's just random people I met in the street, we're not giving the Russians an inch of our territory and we will die to make sure we don't.
And that was to a man or woman of the people I met.
They are extraordinary people.
And we saw, because they've had this reverse on the battlefield, huge attack on the power station, putting that Kharkiv area into darkness.
That will just actually reinforce the determination of the Ukrainians.
You couldn't bomb London in 1940 into submission.
We couldn't actually bomb.
They remind me a lot of the spirit we had here.
Lordana, great to see you.
Thank you very much.
Do you think there's a Vietnam analogy there?
No, I don't actually.
I actually think the Ukrainians are going to prevail eventually in this.
Well, the Vietnamese country.
And I think Putin's, I think he's made a massive mistake.
But you can have a massively technologically advanced nation like the United States or Russia thinking that they can actually invade or occupy and defeat a force.
And they can't.
The Americans didn't win.
Foreign Dignitaries Take Shared Bus00:09:29
In that sense, yeah, I mean, there is a parallel.
I don't need to go on as long as I point.
Yeah, oh, yeah.
That was a long, drawn-out thing.
I don't think this will be that way.
Oh, no, no, it didn't.
I think the American support in particular is so big now, they're getting the equipment that Zelensky wants to be.
Even the Germans are coming in.
Of course, the long game is what Putin is hoping for.
Of course.
But actually, the enthusiasm of the European Union.
It looks to me like it might not be the long game he wants.
Thank you both very much indeed.
It's good to see you both.
Well, the pomp and pageantry that Mr. Powell wants to get rid of was on display today during King Charles' speech to Parliament, Westminster Hall, and it was magnificent.
Let's take a look.
I cannot help but feel the weight of history which surrounds us and which reminds us of the vital parliamentary traditions to which members of both houses dedicate yourselves with such personal commitment for the betterment of us all.
She set an example of selfless duty, which, with God's help and your counsels, I am resolved faithfully to follow.
But we're witnessing the very best of British right now, one of the most difficult times this country has had to go through, which is the death of our great and beloved monarch, the greatest monarch of all time.
Sadness, ceremony, and some solemn celebrations too.
These, of course, are all part of the customs and traditions that underpin the continuity of the monarchy as an institution.
They're intended to show through custom and class that life goes on, that the United Kingdom and its monarchy goes on.
I think most of us feel very proud about that.
I think most people were moved by the late Queen's death and also believe that most people are behind our new King Charles.
But there's an important point here that shouldn't be compulsory.
We don't live in North Korea.
Now we've seen protesters arrested for booing at proclamations for the new king, for holding up placards saying they don't want a new king or a monarchy.
See another protester dragged away by police and arrested today for heckling Prince Andrew.
Now you might share my view that it's completely inappropriate for them to be doing this when the Queen's hearse is there.
You might find it wrong and objectionable that they want to get rid of the monarchy or don't agree with the principle.
But, and it's an important but, in this country, you have the right to disagree, to have your opinion, and to protest loudly if you see fit.
And there are legitimate discussions to be had now about the future of the monarchy under King Charles III and the future of the Commonwealth.
There will be debates, vigorous debates, about how our monarchy fits in at all with a vigorous, thriving new democracy that champions free speech.
But a constitutional monarchy has to make the case of itself time and time again.
They rule by the consent of the people.
That's how this works.
That's part of why King Charles will visit every country in the UK this week, to make that case.
Silencing dissent like this is a bit disturbing.
It feels over the top.
It's not British.
Well, joining me now is former Vogue editor Alexander Shulman, talk TV contributor Esther Kraku, documentary maker John Bridcutt, who has worked with King Charles for 15 years and whose documentary Born to be King is on iPlayer.
Now welcome to all of you.
And from Westminster we have Fox News correspondent Alex Hogan, who I'll come to in a moment.
Alexandra, great to see you all, first of all.
The right to protest.
I'm a staunch monarchist.
I believe in the royal family.
I support the king and I feel very upset about what's happened in the last few days.
But when I see people protesting about the monarchy, I think that is part of a democracy.
What do you think?
Well, I think we live in a time when there are so many questions about free speech, don't we?
You know, I mean, I hate the way that we can't, everybody feels worried about what they say, whether they write something, whether they publish something, whether they say something.
And if you feel that way, you have to also say, well, it's okay for people to make vile comments as the Queen's coffin is in front of them.
So I agree with you.
Yeah, I mean, look, nobody likes to see it.
I don't like to see it.
I say nobody, some people don't care.
I don't like to see it, and it is disrespectful.
But to see people being arrested for protesting about the monarchy, I don't like that.
I think it's completely shambolic, and I think it's very anti-British.
But I have been vocal, and I said, you know, people that haven't even waited for it to be 24 hours before effectively trolling the Queen's death.
It's tacky and it's disrespectful, but I absolutely will fight for their right to say that.
And I think that more harm is being done by silencing people, regardless of what their opinions are, than actually letting them speak and, you know, demonstrating our democracy at its finest.
John, you've made a lot of films with then Prince of Wales, now the King.
First of all, how did you feel when you heard this seismic news that our monarch was changing and this man that you know so well was now our king?
Well I suppose I was aware of the plans that have been laid over a long time and I was very interested to see how it was all going to pan out.
But obviously there's already been a change in him.
I mean he's the same man but he's got, you really feel that he's sort of, he's grappled with his destiny and he's he's accepted it and he's doing it now, which is something he's been waiting to do, not because he wants to get on with it, but because he's expecting it would come.
You know him better than many people.
What's he like?
He's a very gracious man, I would say, to start with.
I think he's also a very emotional man.
And that's not something one associates with the royal family normally.
I think we've seen that since he became king.
His broadcast last Friday was really quite emotional.
And I think that's going to be a hallmark of his reign.
I don't mean sort of bursting into tears all the time, but there's a very deep feeling there.
And I've actually been with him to the opera.
And we went to see La Boheme at Covent Garden.
And in the last act, tears were running down his face.
Really?
Yes, it's quite extraordinary.
It doesn't surprise me.
He strikes me as an emotional man.
I want to Alex Hogan, Fox News correspondent who's over at Buckingham Palace.
Alex, tell me about America's reaction to this.
I've been doing a lot of interviews for various Fox shows.
I'm actually going to be co-anchoring the funeral for Fox, which I'm very honoured to be doing.
It seems to me that America is feeling the loss of this queen, many Americans, almost as much as we are.
That's true.
There's this immense feeling of loss, not only here in the UK, in the US, and really around the world.
Again, this was an influential figure that was known pretty much everywhere across the globe.
And there is this deep sense of tragedy, not only watching a woman people grew up in and knew, but also seeing the loss for the family members today in that really emotional video where we saw the children of the Queen standing around her casket in St. Giles and how emotionally tolling that was for them.
And to be able to witness that and see some of the emotion, just like we were talking about, it is a moment that people around the world are watching just because of the magnitude and the notoriety of this woman, all of the things she was able to do in 70 years on the throne and 96 years of life.
It is a moment that people for the next week continually will watch because it does matter to them.
It hits home with them.
They've spent years watching this woman and to see her live a life so prominently and to be even meeting with the prime minister in her last days.
It's just remarkable to see.
And I think that's why this story touches people really across the globe.
Yeah, and you know, as I'm talking to you, it's just been revealed that President Biden will have dispensation to take his armored beast car to Westminster Abbey for the funeral, unlike most other world leaders who are going to have to share a bus.
It's going to be interesting to see how people arrive.
Everyone was told of these diplomats, these foreign dignitaries, not to travel by private jet or private helicopter and to take these shared buses.
Of course, there is a massive security concern that these foreign dignitaries will need to grapple with.
Just looking at the city of London alone, with the influx of people that have come in from around the country and around the world to pay tribute to the Queen, it's going to be an immense security concern for these diplomats who will be arriving here, not only for their own safety, but also for the safety of the people who are here in London.
But we do not expect President Biden to be traveling on that bus.
And of course, we do see Air Force One on these types of trips.
It'll be interesting to see how many other foreign dignitaries do abide by this request to take the shared bus.
It certainly will.
I think a lot of egos will be at play.
Listen, thank you very much, Alex.
I really appreciate you joining me.
Thank you.
Young People Identify with Prince00:08:23
Alexandra, you know King Charles and his Queen consort Camilla quite well through your previous incarnation as former editor of Vogue.
What are they like?
When you've dealt with them, describe them to me.
Well, the Queen consort, I have huge admiration for.
I know you know her very well, and she's got just this fantastic dry sense of humour and this ability to make you feel like she really engages with you and she's no fuss.
And I think it's really interesting that dynamic because they've been together on and off for years and King Charles is a very different type of man.
You know, he's been brought up always in the sort of epicenter of privilege and this very rarefied life.
And I think what's wonderful is the way that she's been able to make him feel relaxed and supported in a way that I honestly think that were she not around, he would be finding this much more.
I completely agree.
I mean I think I described Camilla earlier as, you know, she is to Prince, or King Charles, as you know, it takes so much to, right?
I mean, we keep slipping up, but to King Charles, what Prince Philip was to the Queen.
You know, she is the rock in his life and always really has been.
And they've endured a lot in all their time together.
But what's interesting is she's never given really a proper interview about anything to do with her own life.
She's done particular things for book clubs or whatever, but never about what she's been through.
She's never complained.
She's never explained.
And in that sense, she's followed the path of the Queen and the Queen Mother, who've always believed you don't need to do all that kind of thing, that you just need to just do your duty.
And the public eventually, if you do it well and you show that you love your country and the people, they'll come around to you.
Yeah, I think it's quite a kind of British thing that, though, isn't it?
You know, sort of the world in a way that Camilla comes from is quite a never complain, never explain world.
And you don't, you know, you don't hang out your dirty washing in public and you don't moan about people and you might do it around the dinner table, but you don't bang on to everyone else about it.
And I think so that's very genuine.
Esther, look, I have known them a long time, but I'm 57.
You're a lot younger than me.
As a young person, what do you want to see from this new king?
He's in his 70s, but by comparison to his mother, he's a younger monarch.
What do you want to see him do?
I think I want to just see him be unapologetically proud to be British.
Which sounds weird, right?
Because you wouldn't hear this from a young person.
But I do think that my generation really needs to see that kind of example because we don't really have that.
We're kind of growing up.
Most Republicans in this country are actually young.
Most people that don't see the value in the monarchy are actually young.
Most people that whinge about the common law that are actually understanding the common law.
The people in the Commonwealth are actually very young.
So I think just being an example and holding the fort is all really I can expect from him because this is a you know a very old institution.
It's obviously given us so much, but I think young people really need to see the value of that for it to continue and I think that's what he can do.
John Brick, is that enough?
Or is he going to be determined to make his mark by not just being the continuity monarch?
Oh, I don't, he's going to be both the same and different.
I'm sure the two things are going to happen at the same time.
And a classic monarch position, if I may say so.
But I think the thing is, and I'm not sure that I agree with you, Esther, because I think he has a great, there's a great pull for a lot of young people with him.
I think if it was another 73-year-old, it would be, it might be a problem.
But Rennie, because of the prince's trust, I think there are a lot of young people who really identify with him.
And it's been striking to see the crowds.
How many young people are out there, you know, wanting to get away from the business?
The best thing he's doing, I can tell you, and I've said this to his people, the more he's out engaging with the people of all ages and particularly young people, the more you can feel the warmth from those people.
They're buying back in, maybe against what they thought they would do, back into this whole construct of a monarchy.
And two women kissing him.
One on the show.
They kissed me.
She had two kings on the same day.
Boom, boom.
It's very interesting, though.
I think that kind of interaction is key.
And he's very good at it.
Because I filmed him in Durham about three years ago.
And he was up there.
It was a beautiful day.
And there were a whole lot of students, university students, who were there lining along the barriers.
And he stopped.
And the thing is, when he shakes hands with people, he listens to what they've got to say.
And he finds a connection.
He was saying, how many essays do you write a week?
And they said, oh, one.
He said, well, I had three when I was at Cambridge.
You have it so easy.
And, you know, and then he met some people.
Well, the last time I saw him was at ITV about four years ago.
He came around the RTV buildings with his queen consort, as she is now.
And he looked at me, he met Susannah Reed, and then he turned to me and he went, Good God, are you still around?
Which I thought was very funny.
And then we had a very funny chat about Donald Trump, who I just interviewed.
He'd just become, it was the first interview he'd give as becoming president to British media.
And he was, and I said, by the way, the president sends his regards today.
He said, really?
And he got quite intrigued by it.
And then later I sat next to Camilla at a dinner just after they'd been with Trump.
And that was a very interesting conversation.
I won't reveal it, but it's very interesting.
But what I got the sense was that they are, they're able to deal, like the Queen, they're able to deal with all types of people.
They know that part of the job is you have to meet a lot of controversial people.
And the job of a monarch is actually not to show which ones you like and don't like.
And I think Charles is as good at that as his mother was.
He's had a lot of time to practice.
A lot of time to practice.
The greatest apprentice in history.
Thank you all very much to my pack here.
We're coming up next.
King Charles hasn't been shy when voicing political matters.
Reportedly praying of the government's positive send migrants to Rwanda, for example, as appalling.
But will he have to now reign it in as monarch?
He says he will, but will he?
Labour's Jonathan Ashworth joins me next.
Well, back in June, Clarence House was forced to release a statement reiterating that King Charles would be politically neutral once he inherited the throne.
It came after the then Prince Brand of the government's controversial policy to send migrants to Rwanda as appalling.
We're joining me now as Shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and Privy Council member Jonathan Ashworth.
Thank you.
You're my first Labour minister, shadow minister to come on.
Thank you very much.
Well, I'm really pleased to be here and I always enjoy coming on your shows, Piers.
And it's great that you're back on our TV today.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
I'll use that as a promo.
Probably get you fired.
But good to see you.
You were there for this accession ceremony on Saturday as a Privy Council member.
What was that like?
Oh, I mean, it was extraordinary.
And the reason I was there is because I'm a Privy Councillor.
That means as an MP, I'm allowed to be called, I am called, the Right Honourable.
And it was 200 of us in this room.
It was an extraordinary moment.
It was...
Real history.
It was real history in the making.
Of course, all of us in there had not been at an accession council before.
So we're all slightly nervous.
None of us want to get it wrong.
We all want to bow at the right moment and say the right thing, of course.
And of course, and in fairness, I'm of a different political party to the government, but I thought Penny Morden, who oversaw proceedings as the Lord President, I thought she was superb.
And then we were ushered into the throne room where we heard King Charles give his address to her.
And it was quite a moving moment, I think.
Yes.
I mean, I thought his speech this morning to all the MPs and peers was really spot on again.
Public Display of Grief00:11:03
Yeah.
In fact, every move he's made so far, despite what must be overwhelming grief he's feeling for the loss of his mother coming so soon after his father died.
I just think it's incredibly impressive what he's been doing so far.
Yeah, I think today, strangely enough, was the moment it really did hit me, the weight of history on his shoulders as we were sat in that Westminster Hall, which is the oldest part of the public.
He looked quite emotional when you all sang God save the king.
I was watching him.
Luckily for me, I just happened to get a seat which was closer to the front and I had a very good view of him.
I thought he looked very emotional.
I thought I could see him, if you like, I thought him processing the magnitude of the moment.
And of course, as well as these great constitutional duties that are placed upon him, and he is carrying them out superbly with a plot, he's also grieving as well because he's lost his mother who he's very close to.
Look, we're living in a dramatic cost of living crisis, which has been slightly overshadowed, of course, by what's happening, but it's real and it's ongoing for people.
There will be a number of Labour Party members and Labour Party voters who will be instinctively thinking all this pomp and pageantry is fine, but what about my ability to pay for my kids' school meals?
What do you say as a Labour shadow minister about this?
Do you think we had a debate just now about whether we should still be doing all this pomp and pageantry?
What do you feel about that?
I think what's important is that we remember that the constitutional settlement we have, a constitutional monarch, actually underpins and secures our democracy.
And it's only be a few days more, if you like, when Parliament will resume and the great issues that are affecting of state, the great issues which are impacting on people across the country will be debated again robustly and democratically in Parliament.
And that democracy is safeguarded by our constitution.
You were a sports fan.
Did you agree with football being cancelled?
I understood why it was cancelled.
Was it with hindsight a mistake then?
Well, I understood why.
The way cricket went about it seemed to be far better to me.
Well, I think football's going to be back on this next weekend, I think.
I think some games, not all.
Yeah.
No, I understood why it was cancelled.
Did you think that PAC Stadium singing the national anthem would have been a good mark of respect?
Well, minute silence at these grounds?
Well, I think we will certainly see that when the games resume, hopefully this weekend.
But look, different people, different organisations will want to pay their tributes in their own ways.
I certainly know as a Leicester MP, our city has come together.
And we are, as you know, an incredibly diverse city.
You're a Leicester fan, eh?
Yeah, but our master's.
The way you're playing, it must be a relief not to be having any games at all.
I don't want to intrude at all.
Let's see how long Brendan Rush is.
Yeah, exactly.
But, you know, just want to make the point.
A city like Leicester, tremendously diverse.
Mosques, temples, Jain temples, Sikh gurdwaras, synagogues, churches, have all come together, all been expressing their thanks to Her Late Majesty.
Should the King now, King Charles III, he was notorious as Prince of Wales for firing off his spidery letters to ministers about all sorts of issues.
He said he won't do that kind of thing anymore.
Is it really important, do you think, that the monarch, whoever it is, but particularly one who's been so vocal politically before in terms of writing to government ministers directly, is it right that he should now be completely impartial and stop that kind of thing?
Well, he will obviously have no role in party politics, quite rightly.
But I think when he was the Prince of Wales, he argued, or perhaps people on his behalf argued, that he's going around the country, he's listening to people all the time, he does a lot of charity work, and it's only right that he passes on to ministers what he picks up and what he hears so ministers can reflect on that and improve the decisions that they are making.
And I am sure as king, as monarch, he will not interfere politically, quite rightly.
But I am sure as he goes around the country and meets people, he will want to pass on what he's hearing.
Final question.
Not a protest, not a lot.
A few people protesting.
Some have been manhandled.
Some have been arrested.
Do you agree with that?
Or do you think people should be entitled if they want to say they don't believe in a monarchy?
I mean, people should be able to say that.
Of course they should.
We're a democracy.
And these protests are very small.
Because I've been doing so much today in my parliamentary duties, I've not seen the clips and so on on Twitter.
Look, I mean, people should be able to protest.
They should be able to have their say.
You know, I think it's pretty clear from the huge outpouring of grief and love and admiration that the vast majority want to maintain the monarchy.
But obviously, one or two people are always going to protest.
That's life.
That's democracy.
It is.
That's why you used to come on Good Morning Britain and let me shout at you.
And I look forward to doing that again when this is all over.
Jonathan Ashworth, so come back again soon.
Very good to see you.
Thank you very much for coming in.
Well, coming up next, some protesters are arrested for interrupting the proclamations of King Charles.
Is it distasteful, inappropriate, arrestable, or free speech?
One of those protesters who shouted who elected him and was arrested joins me next.
Well, a growing number of anti-monarchy protesters have been arrested in the proclamation of King Charles III.
One protest was thrown to the ground and arrested after heckling Prince Andrew.
Is arresting him for a breach of the peace a step too far?
Completely inappropriate.
It would be now his Simon Hill, who was arrested yesterday after he called out who elected him when he passed a ceremony in Oxford marking the new monarch's accession.
Legal journalist Eva Santina, talk TV contributor Esther Kraku, join me again.
Simon Hill, on the face of it, this seems absurd.
You walked past a proclamation being read out and shouted, who elected him?
That's it.
That was your offence.
I shouted out who elected him.
I wasn't even near the front of the proclamation.
I wasn't planning to protest.
I didn't have a placard.
I was on my way home from church.
And as a...
What made you shout out?
Well, the proclamation began with expression of grief for the previous monarch.
And of course, I would never interrupt an expression of grief.
But when they announced Charles to be our only rightful lord and king, well, that isn't something I felt I should accept in the 21st century.
I appreciate other people have different views.
So I called out who elected him.
A couple of people near me told me to shut up.
Fair enough.
That's their free speech.
I responded by expressing why I thought we shouldn't have a head of state without being consulted.
And then suddenly there were these three security guards grabbing me, pushing me backwards.
Then the police took hold of me, led me away, arrested me, handcuffed me, apparently for expressing an opinion.
And, you know, other people have different opinions.
I strongly support their right to free speech.
That's something very worrying if you can't express a different opinion.
Yeah, I mean, I don't agree with your opinion at all, but I certainly don't understand why you've been arrested in the Democratic Society for shouting out who elected him.
What's happened since?
Well, when they arrested me, to begin with, there was a lot of confusion as to the grounds for the arrest.
They kept contradicting each other about why I've been arrested when I tried to ask them.
Eventually they de-arrested me.
They asked me to do an interview.
I said...
What does that mean?
They took away the arrest?
Well, it was unclear to me, because at first they said I'd be de-arrested if I gave an interview.
I said I wanted a lawyer present if I was to be interviewed.
And then they said I'd be de-arrested and asked back for an interview and I could still be charged.
And then they released me.
And at that point, they told me I'd been arrested under a particular act, the Police Act passed earlier this year.
But later on, the police press office was telling journalists I've been arrested under a different act.
So the police don't even seem to know on what grounds they're arrested.
Ava Santina, this doesn't make me feel comfortable in this country that people are being arrested for shouting who elected him.
You're perfectly entitled not to want to believe in a monarchy.
No.
Well, totally.
I mean, this is under the despotic bill that was introduced under Pretty Patel, our now former Home Secretary, earlier in the year.
A few generalists.
The police told us it was under section five of the Public Order Offence.
So Public Order Act 1986, it applies to behaviour deemed likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress.
I'm not quite sure how who elected him could cause harassment, alarm or distress.
Who elected?
I'm not sure saying who elected him constitutes harassment, alarm or distress.
Well, yeah, no, I think it would make more sense if he had been charged, which was similar.
In Edinburgh, there was sort of some talk that they were getting arrested under this bill under Pretty Patel's bill, because that's very subjective, that line in that.
So any protest that can be described as disturbing the peace, you could be done for.
But this is totally bizarre.
The idea that you could express an opinion anti-monarchy.
Minister, I think we can all agree this seems like a massive overreach by the police.
A bit more complicated is what happened in Edinburgh today.
As the Queen's hearse went past, one protester jumped out because Prince Andrew was walking behind the hearse.
It's his mother.
Absolutely understand why he wanted to be there to pay his respects.
But I can understand why some members of the public would feel aggrieved about a public display or appearance by somebody who's recently been so disgraced.
And so one young member of the crowd began bellowing things about Prince Andrew and he was manhandled and dragged out of there.
And I'm not sure what I feel about that because it did seem completely incensive to do it in front of the Queen's house.
Having said that, I understand why emotions might run high about Andrew being sent to stage as some of this.
I'm more inclined to believe, and I'm trying to be as gracious as I can to the people that arrested him, that it was because there was some sort of fear for his security as opposed to anything else, because that's the only reason that I can possibly think.
The crowd weren't really responding to it.
Yeah, who would, right?
I mean, behind a barrier.
Exactly.
He couldn't have gotten over there.
Exactly.
But, you know, I don't think anyone thinks Prince Andrew is.
I mean, what do you think, Simon, of that incident?
Yeah, personally, I wouldn't protest at a funeral procession.
I'd never protest an act of mourning.
But that's on taste grounds more than anything else.
Yeah, that's right.
But the fact that something's distasteful or something I don't like isn't a reason for it to be illegal.
We can't arrest everyone doing anything distasteful.
And, you know, to put it bluntly, a lot of people will ask, why is it not Andrew who's being arrested or investigated rather than rather than...
Perfectly reasonable point.
And many will think if you pay someone off in a civil accord action to tune in millions of dollars to avoid a court appearance, some people will ask that question.
And if you're in that position of privilege, you know, some would ask if Andrew was in a different social position, would he be more likely to be able to do that?
And didn't have the money to do that.
Exactly.
Simon Hill, I don't know why you were arrested.
It seems wrong.
I don't agree with you.
But for what it's worth, you shouldn't have been arrested, in my opinion.
Commonwealth Referendum in Jamaica00:06:22
We live in a country where I thought free speech was the cornerstone of our democracy.
But from what happened to you, I'm beginning to doubt that very much.
But thank you very much for coming in.
Well, thank you.
And there's been several similar arrests in London and Edinburgh.
Yeah, I just think we've got to take it case by case.
But certainly in your case, it seemed a ridiculous overreach.
But thank you for coming in.
Thank you.
You two stay with me.
We're going to have one last segment about the future of the Commonwealth.
No pressure.
These are big issues.
Well, Commonwealth nations are all deliberating now, of course, with a new monarch what they should be doing.
Do they want to become republics?
Antigua is the latest in the Caribbean, for example, to say that they'll have a referendum within the next three years.
We'll discuss all this next.
Well, besides the UK, King Charles III is now head of state in 14 Commonwealth countries, as well as remaining head of the Commonwealth of 56 Nations.
But with the late Queen's passing, will we now see at the beginning of more countries following Barbados in becoming republics?
Joining me now as former BBC royal correspondent, Wesley Kerr, talk to V contributor Estecracker and political journalist Avisantina.
Stay with me.
Wesley, great to see you.
What is the difference between a Commonwealth country and Commonwealth realms?
A Commonwealth country is one of 56 in this free association of countries.
There were seven members of the Commonwealth when Elizabeth became Queen.
So you could argue it's a great success.
In PR terms, it's flipped the bad of empire into something positive.
And then some countries, when they became independent, choose to keep the British monarch.
And that goes back to Canada in the mid-19th century, which became the first dominion, as they were then called.
Then Australia, New Zealand, South Africa.
So it was largely a white club before the Second World War, including the Irish Free Strait in Newfoundland.
Then when India became independent and was broken up into India and Pakistan and Sri Lanka, so it then wanted to become a republic.
So they had this new formula, let's make the monarch head of the Commonwealth and then let's allow republics to stay in the Commonwealth.
So 90% of the members of the population of the Commonwealth are in Asia and Africa and live in republics.
But there's these countries, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Jamaica being the largest in population terms.
I can't see the first three immediately becoming republics.
Australia looked at that.
Well, we're seeing like Antigua now, referendum within three years and so on.
Could there be a bit of a domino effect here?
Well, I think it's I remember being on tour with the Queen in the Caribbean 30 years ago and being told, oh, this will be the last visit to Jamaica.
And Jamaica still hasn't had it.
It needs a referendum in Jamaica.
I think that's the key thing.
Have the ones who've gone republic regretted it?
I don't think it makes all that much difference because they all chose to keep the British monarch.
Maybe it's good for tourism.
But Barbados, I don't think, feels any less English than it did before.
What do you think?
I mean, obviously, we've seen in recent royal trips this question of whether Britain and the monarchy in particular should be apologizing looking back over the worst side of the British Empire and so on.
What do you feel about that?
Does that actually make any difference?
As a descendant of slaves, I've always been aware of the history of Britain, but I don't blame my contemporary Brits for the terrible wrongs of the past.
I think that better aid, better terms of trade is much better than reparations.
I think apologies, Charles has made an apology, William made an apology.
I don't think that actually makes the difference.
No, I agree.
I think you're right.
I think treating it as a partnership of equals, that will be the future of the Commonwealth.
Is it not, from this end of the telescope, not about the monarchy, but about actually things that are common purpose?
Esther, it's very important, I think, that the Commonwealth remains strong for King Charles III.
And he'll feel very strongly about that.
You're from Ghana, originally, the Commonwealth country.
What do you feel about this?
I think most people that are against the Commonwealth don't really understand the Commonwealth or the people that live within the Commonwealth.
And I think actually many people within the Commonwealth are more an extension of traditional British values than people within this country that are staunch Republicans or don't appreciate the monarchy or the monarchy or the Commonwealth.
You know, it says something, it's a testament to the Commonwealth, the fact that there are countries that weren't even part of the British Empire that have chosen to join the Commonwealth.
And it says something about sort of the continuation of British values and what it means for the world, you know, and what it means for our globalized world now.
I think, you know, the fact that they're choosing sort of a greater alliance with something like the UK and the Commonwealth as opposed to aligning themselves more with China, for instance, that says a lot about what British values mean around the world.
What do you think?
Do I see the value in the Commonwealth?
I don't think that we treat people from the Commonwealth very well in this country.
So I can't personally see the value, but I'm not going to sit here and tell you how to feel about it.
I mean, I don't feel as I've been badly treated as somebody conceived in Jamaica all my life here.
I don't feel like...
I'm like, I think of bad things that have happened to me and police narcissists, but I don't think I've been badly treated.
Are you alluding to the Windrush scandal?
Definitely.
I think, you know, growing up loving Benjamin Zephaniah as an author and his understanding of coming here and just feeling totally alienated and being told that this was the mother country and he was going to be welcomed here and they're being treated.
He doesn't feel that now though.
I could tell you terrible stories of when I was young and I think this is so much better than many countries.
I think it's a generational thing as well because I had my family.
I have older family members that came to the UK before I was as teenagers and their experience to mine is completely different.
And like I said, you know, nothing is perfect, but it's a testament to Britain and to British values.
The fact that even with all of this, there's still countries that choose to join the Commonwealth as opposed to aligning themselves.
Yeah, I think it's a really good point.
But you've got to look at the situation with nurses at the moment.
Where are we looking for nurses?
And we are mainly about the Commission.
I've got to cut in.
Sorry.
I've got to leave it there.
It's a good debate, though.
We should have more on this.
I think it's a really interesting conversation, which Charles will now have to have as our king.
Thank you all very much.
Thank you, both of you for coming in.
Appreciate it.
That's all for us tonight.
We'll have more tomorrow and more every night this week about the loss of this great monarch and also the future under King Charles III.