Red, a math academic turned flat Earth debunker since 2016, counters JC Camby’s (Jeronism) claims with independent measurements—like tracking the ISS and filming 70+ rocket launches—that confirm Earth’s sphere. Flat Earthers, whether religious, prideful, or ignorant, often dismiss evidence, such as falsely attributing NASA images to other missions or ignoring curvature in distant landscapes. Their "do your own research" mantra fails when they rely on pre-made content without verification, forcing convoluted explanations for history like Columbus’s voyages or Antarctica’s existence. Red urges curiosity-driven skeptics to test beliefs empirically, framing it as a path to truth over dogma, and invites collaboration via truthunrestricted@gmail.com. [Automatically generated summary]
And we're back with Truth Unrestricted, the podcast would have a better name if they weren't all taken.
I'm Spencer, your host, and I have a great episode planned today.
I've recently been called out for my use of the phrase reality-denying ideology.
Specifically, it was said that it's a phrase that I just use to define anything that I don't agree with.
That's not true, and I'm about to explain why.
I like to clearly define terms on this podcast, and I've been remiss in not properly providing one in this situation.
A reality-denying ideology is a set of beliefs that is not consistent to a fixed narrative, but is instead constantly changing so as to avoid coinciding with a specific chosen aspect of reality.
This is commonly characterized by a situation wherein any answer except reality will suffice.
They are not coherent belief systems.
Their purpose is not for them to be coherent.
Their purpose is to facilitate in the mind of a person the ability to reject reality.
One might well ask, why would anyone want to reject reality?
My answer is to replace objective reality with a different version of reality that they prefer, an unreality.
These beliefs are defined by the aspect of reality that they are attempting to replace.
This is, at this very moment, being done with vaccines, climate, history, election results, and most relevant to today's discussion, the shape of the planet we call home.
Today, we're going to talk about the reality-denying ideology of the flat earth, which brings us to our special guest.
Thank you.
Yes, my name is Red.
I'm from the YouTube channel Red's Rhetoric.
You can also find me on Twitter or what's now called X or whatever it's called this week at Red's Rhetoric.
Yes, I am a nobody from Florida that for some reason finds entertainment in debunking flat Earth conspiracy theories.
And I do want to say thank you for having me on.
Oh, thank you for showing up and being a guest.
I also have had entertainment from listening to you debunk flat earthers.
So maybe I'm biased.
I don't know, because I enjoy it, whatever that means.
I guess we're going to find out, right?
Yeah.
So let's start from the beginning, I guess.
How did you first get into, you know, involved with debunking flat earth nonsense?
Well, I guess it all started back in 1998.
My grandmother took me out to see the launch of the space shuttle, and it was an amazing experience.
And I always had a, I always had an interest in space and, you know, rockets.
From that point going forward, it just never blossomed into anything until I got into flat earth.
But the start of my flat earth debunking journey was probably back in 2016.
I was having a conversation in a Google Hangout.
And back in the day, you could send the link out and anyone could join without ruining the entirety of the conversation because you can just boot them out whenever, but they kind of got rid of that feature.
And so that's no longer a thing.
However, we had an individual come into the room by a name of JC Camby.
JC Camby was very weird.
And he was saying a whole bunch of things that didn't make any sense.
Now, we weren't talking about any one particular topic, but he would just bring up a whole bunch of conspiracy theories that had to do with everything.
And I'm not sure what he said, but I was prompted to ask him this question.
Wait, do you think the Earth is flat?
And he said, yes.
That started an argument.
And during the argument, he stated that he was going to make a YouTube channel dedicated to Flat Earth conspiracy nonsense.
I then responded with, well, I'll make my YouTube channel dedicated to debunking you.
And JC Camby turned into Jeronism.
And Redline V8 turned into Red's Rhetoric.
And that started this entire thing with me and Flat Earth.
And it has been an absolute dumpster fire ever since.
But that's literally how it started.
Some random dude came into a random hangout that I just happened to be in.
He said that he thought that the Earth was flat.
That led to an argument.
He made his channel Jeronism.
And that's the guy that's so famous for being a flat earther and completely screwing up his credibility on a documentary, which is absolutely hilarious.
And then you have me who's like, oh, okay, if you're going to do this, I'm just going to dedicate an absurd amount of time to debunking you.
So that's how it all started.
He's still active?
He is still active.
Jeronism was featured in the documentary Behind the Curve.
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
I did see that.
Yeah, he's a very famous flat earther.
He's one of the OGs.
That's an amazing sort of origin story because both sides of it would cast themselves as the sort of Marvel superhero with the other side being the Marvel villain that you happen to be in one space and then you've been sort of against each other ever since in this sort of struggle for reality, really.
You know, it's an absolutely funny series of events that transpired, but essentially it started out as a pissing contest and it's still a pissing contest to this day.
We don't talk to each other all that much, but everything that you see with the flat earth conspiracy stemmed from Jeronism and his group.
They were kind of like the pioneers, at least on the internet, when it came to the flat earth conspiracy.
So 99.9% of the arguments that you see or hear on the internet from flat earthers, it originated with that group of individuals, geronism being one of them.
Wow.
So was there ever any moment at all during it that you were the least bit confused about whether the earth might really be flat or spherical?
Absolutely not.
Not even a millisecond.
And the reason why, and you don't need to know science, you don't need to know math for this, but you just look at what it would take to keep that conspiracy going.
We're talking about a global conspiracy.
We would have to cooperate with other countries and world leaders that absolutely hate our guts.
Meanwhile, you look at other things that have happened in American history.
Like, for example, the fact that they couldn't hide a blowjob in the White House or the fact that they couldn't keep Edward Snowden's mouth shut.
You look at all of these events and then you ask yourself, oh, yeah, they're totally going to be able to keep the shape of the earth under wraps.
No one is going to leak that information.
And for the purpose that's also really unknown.
Like, why?
Yeah, really, really unknown.
And gain anymore.
Yeah.
On top of that, you're going to be able to perfectly hide the fact that a whole bunch of people that could blow the whistle on this just happen to disappear all the time.
You're going to hide that fact.
You're going to hide the countless amount of murdering you're going to have to do.
So, just looking at the logistics of this conspiracy, it's complete nonsense.
So, no, there wasn't, there wasn't a second that I thought that the Earth was flat.
Right.
You had you already been involved with astronomy and that sort of thing before this ever occurred with geronism?
No, not at all.
Before my conversation with Geronism, I only had a passing interest in space.
I had a passing interest in rocketry.
I thought it was absolutely amazing.
And whenever a rocket launch would happen, I would climb to the roof so I could see it off in the distance.
But I never got into it.
And it wasn't until I had my conversation with Geronism that I was like, oh, okay, challenge accepted.
Right.
Yeah.
Having listened to your space a few times now, when you do them on Twitter, I'm continually impressed by how many measurements you've actually taken and things you've looked at, like you know, viewed the actual International Space Station from planet Earth and taken actual measurements of the actual sizes of things like the moon and distance of the sun and that sort of thing.
It's really, really interesting stuff.
I went to school and did a lot of math, and I always kind of knew in the back of my head that I could do that math if I ever needed, but I never was put in a spot in my life where I ever needed to, and I just haven't used it.
So then I go into a space and I see someone using this for a real thing.
It's kind of nice, right?
It is.
It is.
And I'm doing this for a particular reason.
I'm doing it to make a point.
What people need to understand is that I am not a genius.
I barely, barely passed high school.
I sucked at science and mathematics.
I was terrible at it, absolutely terrible at it.
And I use that to my advantage.
And how I do that is I say the following: if I can figure this out, then flat earthers are without excuse.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, that's, but they think they're not confused about the shape of the earth.
They are, they want it to be flat.
Yes.
Right.
That's the point is that they're starting from the conclusion that they want and then attempting to arrange the situation to manufacture a reason why someone else should think that's true.
Well, there's three types of flat earthers, and that is true for two of them.
And so let me go down the list with you so that we can call out the right individuals.
The first type of flat earther is the religious type of flat earther.
These are flat earthers that believe the earth is flat because they interpret the Bible to have said so.
They have already made their conclusion, and no amount of evidence is going to convince them otherwise.
They believe it is a salvation issue.
And these are flat earthers that are flat earthers despite the evidence, not because of it, because again, the Bible says so.
And I have spoken to a few of these flat earthers in the past where they have actually admitted to me that if I were to somehow fly their happy asses to space to where they can see our beautiful planet with their own eyes, their faith would demand that they reject what they are seeing with their own eyes.
Because again, the Bible says the earth is flat, therefore earth is flat.
It doesn't matter what you show me.
Because again, it is a salvation issue for them.
The second type of flat earther is the prideful.
These are individuals that wanted to be geniuses, but never did the necessary work to contribute to scientific understanding.
They wanted to be the next Albert Einstein.
They wanted to be the next Newton, but they couldn't get past Bill Nye, the science guy.
And in their journey to be seen as smarter than they actually are, they discovered the flat earth conspiracy.
And think about it.
What better way to establish yourself as an intellectual powerhouse than by uprooting centuries of scientific understanding and basic geometry?
They want to be special and they're willing to lie to you and themselves because of it.
Those are the two types of flat earthers that have already made their conclusion and they're simply looking for evidence to reinforce that conclusion.
The third type of flat earther is the ignorant flat earther.
This is the rarest group of flat earthers.
These are individuals who aren't basing their belief on religion or pride, but on a convincing sales pitch by another flat earther on the internet.
These are individuals that you can have an actual decent conversation with and eventually you can get them out of the dumpster fire that is the flat earth conspiracy.
They can start believing in a model that actually comports with reality because they're willing to accept the evidence that you present to them.
Right.
Well, in that case, I guess the ignorant would be people who were swayed by flat earth arguments online.
And because they were went onto a community and were swayed by flat earth arguments, they are maybe susceptible then to also being swayed back to reality by better arguments about what the actual shape of the earth is.
And it's not just being convinced by flat earth arguments, but it's also being convinced by a misrepresentation of globe arguments.
So what will usually happen during their sales pitch is that they will actively misrepresent what globies say.
And I'll give you an example.
Dave Weiss, deep inside the rabbit hole, was presenting evidence of a conspiracy from NASA.
Oh, look at this, Apollo 9, 10, 11.
Look how the clouds are exactly the same and these are different images, blah, blah, blah.
When in reality, all three of those images were from Apollo 12.
So he misrepresented the argument to make his side appear stronger than it actually was.
That's just one example.
Right.
Do you think that the people who are like the first two groups, the religious and the prideful, do you think in a lot of cases, or in some cases anyway, that they are consciously lying?
Like that they know that the argument they're making isn't a real and useful argument, but they'll use it anyway because they need to fill in a blank or they need to provide an answer just to have an answer.
Do you think that's sometimes happening?
I would say for the first two groups that they are aware that they don't have a legitimate argument.
They may genuinely believe that the earth is flat, but they know damn well that they don't have any evidence for it.
They just don't want to admit that it is a belief based on faith.
I can say that for certain.
Yeah.
Yeah, I had a, it was just a few days ago.
I silenced one in their tracks because I just said, yeah, hey, you know, why don't I give you a list of all the observations that are easily reproducible in someone's backyard, and then you produce a workable model of the earth and the sun and moon and stars that fits all of those things that anyone can see.
And that was where the conversation full-on ended.
It's done because they know.
Yeah.
And that's it.
Sometimes I think they try to use Occam's razor to argue their point.
But of course, this comes from a misunderstanding of Occam's razor, right?
Occam's razor does sort of say that the simpler explanation is more likely to be true.
But the fine print there is that that's if both explanations explain the same number of relevant observations, right?
Which is not true in this case.
You don't have a flat earth model and a spherical model that are both explaining the same number of observations.
The spherical model is explaining every available observation.
And the flat earth model is explaining one, just one observation.
That is that when you're standing in a field, it sort of looks flat.
That's the only observation it has.
And they don't want to accept that that can actually be the case on a planet that is absolutely massive.
Yeah.
And flat earthers will typically, and I'm in my, in my opinion, on purpose, they will misrepresent the size of the earth and what that means for the flatness of the horizon because they just don't want to accept that the planet is absolutely massive.
And unfortunately for them, it is.
And so the horizon looking more or less flat is perfectly consistent with the round earth model.
Yeah.
And what's also odd about that is that if it was a flat earth, it would have to be equally massive because you have to account for the distance that people have to travel to get from one place to another.
In fact, it would have to be more massive because the places that we, you know, can absolutely see there's distances between would suddenly have to fit on this flat surface.
And to explain everything, as you well know, probably much better than me, their model has to change consistently to account for all these things.
It's sort of a fluid work in progress.
It has to be much, much larger even.
And that's, that's where the disconnect is, is that they don't like that it looks so large that it would, you know, that it has to be, that it is so large that it kind of looks flat, but they would then insist that it's even larger than that.
Like this is, this is why it's always a pain in their ass when you ask them for a two-scale map.
Show me a map of your flat earth with which I can use to navigate.
Yeah.
They will not be able to produce one.
And there's a reason for that.
Yeah.
And that map doesn't account for the positions of the stars as they look from every angle.
And of course, also doesn't account for the position of the sun as it moves through the sky.
All of those factors are just not available.
They have a way to make it seem sort of like it's true, and that's all they have.
Yeah.
And this is one of the reasons why I use the flat earth model in a bunch of my videos because I'm showing the absurdity of these models.
Because if you have a flat earth model, you can make predictions based on that model and you can see if those predictions comport with reality.
And with a lot of videos that I have made, none of them have worked out in the flat earthers' favor.
One of the more famous videos I've made is measuring the angular size of the sun.
If you were to track the sun all day from sunrise to sunset, like I did on the equinox back in 2022, you would see that the angular size of the sun remains the same throughout the day.
And so why is that a problem for the flat earth conspiracy?
Well, if you were to model how the sun would look over a flat earth, we would see the sun rise at one angular size, grow to twice as big midday, and then shrink again by sunset.
That does not happen, yet that is exactly what is predicted by the flat earth model.
So when I posted that video, can you guess why people on the flat earth side were very upset with it?
No, yeah, it's blasphemy, right?
It's blasphemy because I did the observation properly.
Now, flat earthers will react to this video by posting videos of their own where you see a sun that looks like it's shrinking, but what they're not doing is taking into account glare.
When I did my video and I did my observation, I used a solar filter.
I wanted to cut out the glare entirely so I can see the solar face.
And I was able to do that with such beauty and precision that I could see sunspots.
And when you look at my video and you see that I tracked it from sunrise to sunset, it did not change in angular size.
But you look at their video, you're seeing a reduction in glare, but you're not seeing the solar face itself.
This shows that when flat earthers want to present something, they're not telling you the entirety of the story that, oh, wait, you're actually not showing me what I need to be seeing right now.
I need to be seeing the solar face, not glare from the sun.
Yeah.
And the other factor, of course, that you would undoubtedly have noticed at the same time as you were measuring the angular size throughout the day is that the sun is changing position by almost exactly 15 degrees every hour as it moves across the sky.
And this comports exactly with a planet that's turning on an axis and doesn't at all fit with the idea of a sun that's moving above a flat earth because that should change in apparent speed as it gets closer to overhead as it does when it's far away in the distance.
These are just things that a flat earth model cannot explain and would like to yada yada right past.
Yep, exactly.
Normally, when a flat earther doesn't have a response, it's always not, or they just change the subject entirely.
And that has happened so many times.
I could give you so many examples, but we would just be here for four hours.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We don't need to go through every piece of flat earth, but there are some things I'm interested in about how flat earthers think.
All right.
Is it possible that flat earthers?
I mean, you listed three individual categories.
In addition to whatever factor put them into the flat earth category in the first place, do you think that some of them might be lured by the idea that they get to discover the shape of the earth and all the things about it in the way that maybe like scientists used to do back in the scientific revolution where they got to make discoveries and learn new things about how the universe works and it seems so wonderful?
Do you think any of them are in that space where they get a charge or a sense of wonder at how the universe works, thinking that they don't know how it works?
Oh, absolutely.
That's the prideful category.
Who wouldn't want to be the next Albert Einstein?
Who wouldn't want to be the next Stephen Hawking and make groundbreaking discoveries?
It's an enticing proposition.
And tell you what, if you granted me fame and fortune on a silver platter, I would be more than happy to take it.
Thank you very much, sir.
I'll take my Tesla in red, please.
But, you know, these are individuals that want that prestige, but they don't want to do the work for it.
And it's kind of like creationism, where you have all of these scientists and PhDs working for like the Creation Museum or Answers in Genesis or whatever the organization is this week.
In my opinion, they go that route because they can get their fame and fortune with much less work.
In my opinion, it can even be more profitable.
And so the same way it works for them, it also works for flat earthers.
They can get their, they can get their name recognized while being absolutely wrong about everything.
I mean, Jeronism has been in, if in my, in my recollection, he's been in two different documentaries.
He became famous.
He became famous for all the wrong reasons, but at the end of the day, he's still famous.
People know his name, even though he's literally wrong about everything.
So it clearly worked for him.
And people see this crap and they're like, ooh, I could be the next Jeronism.
I could be the next Bob Nodell.
I could be the next Whitsit.
You know, they actually look up to these jokers and they have something to aspire to, which is absolutely sad in every way that you can possibly imagine.
Yeah, it's, I don't know how a person could look at a situation and deny that it exists just for money or attention.
Do you think any of them are doing it just for the money and attention and don't have any real belief?
Or do you think that the people who are all like they do have some level of sort of zealotry, true belief going on here?
No, I believe some of them are definitely doing it just for the money.
And the one person I do want to call out in particular would be Deep Inside the Rabbit Hole.
Let me tell you this.
He has an app that is flat Earth conspiracy stroking in nature.
And this app costs money.
Let's assume that the number of people that has actually downloaded this damn thing is the accurate number because it lists the number of downloads on the download page in your app store.
And if you were to take the amount of money it costs, I think it's like $4, multiply that by the number of people that have actually downloaded this garbage app.
He supposedly has made over $200,000 selling this app.
Now, if he was legitimate in what he says and that he cares about the truth, he's seeking truth or whatever.
Did you know that for $100,000, you can book a ride on the new Shepard rocket, which is a suborbital rocket from Blue Origin?
So for $100,000, You can blast your happy ass into the stratosphere, experience six or seven minutes of weightlessness and see the curvature of the Earth with your own eyes.
And when you come back, you would still have $100,000 left over.
Why doesn't he do that?
Well, the very moment he does do that, the very moment he actually does the ultimate fact check, his grift is over.
He won't be able to make any more money after that.
So in order to keep the grift going, he purposefully doesn't spend that money on tools and equipment or expeditions or anything like that that would give him the answer that he is supposedly looking for.
He could fund an entire flat earth expedition to the South Pole.
Why hasn't he done that?
He could buy a ticket on the new Shepard rocket.
Why hasn't he done that?
He could actually buy a telescope that's worth a damn, learn how to actually use it and make measurements with it.
Why hasn't he done that?
There's a reason.
It's because it's not about finding truth.
It's about that grift.
It's about that money.
And he wants more of it.
I heard a rumor that he actually quit his full-time job to do flat earth full-time.
So his entire livelihood is reliant on his ability to sell a bullshit story.
So he ain't going to quit.
Right.
So if I may, this is where I get to be more cynical than you.
Ooh.
Here's what he does if he spends that $100,000 on the ticket to go into space to see this planet we have from high enough that he could see reality.
He buys a ticket.
He goes up.
He looks at the planet.
He comes back down.
He claims that he saw it, that it was flat, and that they wouldn't let him take a picture and uses it instead of breaking a hole in his entire logic.
He uses it to grift even further.
And he claims, I went there.
I saw that it's flat.
All the other people there are just shills.
That's where he goes if he ever does this.
Unless you go with someone else that films him looking at the obviously globe Earth, you'll never have a gotcha there.
You'll never get him.
And that's why.
But here's the great thing about the new Shepard rocket.
That $100,000 is only for a single seat.
If I remember correctly, I think there's six or seven seats on this thing.
I mean, fucking William Shatner went up in this thing.
They'll just say it's fake.
Yeah, they'll say it's fake.
However, multiple individuals, multiple other individuals will be there with him.
And multiple individuals will be able to film with no problems whatsoever.
And they will post that footage.
Many of them have right on YouTube.
And so it would be him trying to spin a bullshit story, knowing full well that there's evidence out there that shows that he's lying about his trip.
And so he doesn't want to be put in that position in the first place.
So he's just not going to go.
Well, true.
And also, he would have to hope that whatever additional funds he got from grifting on it would be worth more than the $100,000 he spent going up, which would be a risk.
And I imagine he's fairly risk averse, especially where it's a single $100,000 ticket goes.
He's happy where he's at right now.
He ain't moving.
He's like, I found a corner.
I live here now.
Yeah.
Right.
That makes sense.
So I have a little closing out blurb, but were there any other questions or angles on this that you wanted to touch on?
Yeah, it's one constant objection that flat earthers constantly give, especially to any individual that answers their questions honestly.
They'll constantly ask you, are you getting that from NASA?
Are you getting that from NASA?
Oh, you're just believing that because you were told that.
That's like their ultimate rebuttal to anything you could possibly tell them.
But I would say, and this is where I'm going to kind of stroke my own ego here.
The reason why I am so lethal to the flat Earth conspiracy is because I don't go to NASA for any of my arguments.
Let me repeat that just in case your listeners have tuned out.
I don't go to NASA for any of my arguments.
And when I say that, it means that I have done my own measurements, my own observations.
I have measured the size of the Earth with my own equipment.
I have measured the altitude, the size, and the speed of the International Space Station.
I was able to measure the distance to Mars.
I was able to measure the actual size of Mars.
I was able to use that information to then measure the distance to the sun, which means if I know the angular size of the sun, I can find the actual diameter of the sun.
That's also another thing I was able to figure out on my own.
I was able to capture the International Space Station with no dragon spacecraft docked, view a rocket launch, and then see the space station later with it docked to the International Space Station, with the spacecraft docked after the rocket launched it up there.
So before, during, after.
Look at that.
I was able to get independent confirmation that NASA is doing what NASA says that they are doing.
And not just that, not just that.
I was also able to demonstrate inherent contradictions with the flat Earth conspiracy, again, using my own measurements.
Like, for example, the altitude angle of Polaris.
You try to plot that on a flat Earth, you will get contradictions not only for the altitude of Polaris, but also its location over the flat Earth.
I was able to go to the North Side of the Skyway Bridge in Florida and see the Tampa Bay or the Tampa skyline from 24 miles away.
I was then able to go to Bay Shore Boulevard, take a picture of that same skyline from only three miles away, compare the two.
And what do you know?
There is indeed curvature in the original image.
And you can blink between the two and you can see the wall of water that isn't there from three miles away.
These are all things that I have done myself.
And I've been able to do all of this without asking NASA's permission.
On top of that, I was also able to film rocket launches.
I think I filmed over 70 rocket launches during my time on YouTube.
And every single one of them comports with the round earth model.
It comports with them doing what they say they're going to do.
You know, the most beautiful rocket launches are the ones where they launch early in the morning, but when they get high enough, they can see over the curve and be illuminated by the morning sun before the sun actually rises.
They can literally see over the curve of the earth.
That is something that is predicted by the round earth mode.
And I was seeing it.
I filmed it not once, not twice, but three separate times.
You know, these are things that I have been able to do on my own, again, without going to NASA.
And these are things that flat earthers could also do if they actually gave a damn.
Now, another rebuttal to that would be, well, all of this requires really expensive equipment and I don't have access to that.
We get rid of that excuse altogether because we have offered flat earthers a chance to use our equipment.
I agree.
These are multi thousand dollar telescopes.
They're extremely expensive, especially all the supporting hardware that's needed.
And it can be a bit of an ask to tell flat earthers to purchase all this garbage.
Well, guess what?
We give them a chance to use our garbage.
We already made the investment.
So they don't need to pay for any of it.
They just have to put in the time and effort to make the measurements themselves.
And we've been able to do this all in such a way where they can operate our telescopes from the comfort of their own home.
We make that offer to them.
And we make that offer for two reasons.
One, it would be really awesome to have another person make these observations and measurements.
But two, it gives them a choice.
Do I give enough of a damn about reality to actually investigate it?
Or am I perfectly happy being ignorant despite the opportunity given to me?
And we use that as a very powerful tool in our arsenal.
We have that available to flat earthers.
And so if flat earthers were actually genuine in their interest, they would hop onto this opportunity.
Let me tell you something.
It has been a challenge to find even one flat earther that was willing to take us up on that offer.
Yeah, I bet.
Just one flat earther.
And we've been doing this for years.
We have spoken to countless flat earthers, and it's a struggle to even find one that wants to put in the work.
Imagine that.
Yeah.
They prefer their answer.
They do.
They absolutely do.
And, you know, this goes back to this idea that flat earthers have, which is do your own research.
When they say that, they don't actually mean it.
What they actually want you to do is watch someone else's shitty flat earth YouTube video and simply take what they say, hook line and sinker without giving you a second thought, without any fact checking.
They don't want you to go out and do measurements because the very moment you do measurements, you find out very quickly that the flat earth model does not comport with reality.
So when we make this up, when we give them this opportunity, we're challenging them on that principle.
Oh, you mean do your own research?
Well, I'll tell you what, we will help you with your own research with actual equipment that's worth a damn.
Yeah.
And actually, do your own research.
What it actually means is don't trust the answer that the system has given you.
Distrust established reality.
That's what they're really saying when they say that.
Don't trust the thing that other people have told you.
divide yourselves up into individuals instead of working together as a whole to find an established reality and i think in the end the phrase do your own research is going to have done more collective damage to society than any other single phrase in history because of the things it will prevent us from doing people need to look at it in this way they need to take it as a challenge And I did.
I took it as a challenge.
I was like, listen, I am not a smart individual.
Like I said, I barely passed high school.
I struggled with math, but I took it as a challenge.
If I can figure this out, then they are without excuse.
So I make these offers to them.
So I would suggest that other people take it as a challenge as well.
And if they are curious as to what can be discovered with their own effort, they are perfectly welcome to get in contact with me on Twitter or they can leave a comment on my YouTube channel.
And I'll be more than happy to grant them the same opportunity that I'm granting flat earthers.
And if you are a flat earther, that is of the third group, just the ignorant group, then I'm going to make this offer to you yet again.
If you put value into being able to do your own work, to make your own measurements, I got a couple telescopes, I got time, and I have the ability to help you out with that.
Because in my opinion, you doing the work yourself and seeing where it leads you and it leads you to the right answer is a great feeling.
It's a great feeling to be like, wow, I personally rediscovered this and I didn't have to take anyone else's word for it.
When I measured the distance to the sun, when I was doing the math and I was, you know, putting everything together and then I hit enter and then the answer popped up on the other side, the equal sign, that was me interacting with the entirety of the solar system.
That was an amazing feeling.
Like, wow, this is something I'm going to remember for the rest of my life.
Yeah.
And so I want other people to experience that.
And if flat earthers are flat earthers for the simple fact that they're ignorant and they don't know any better, but they're willing to hear the other side, get in contact with me because I'll be more than happy to share my work with you and then share how you can do the work yourself on the next go around.
Yeah, I would add that you are absolutely correct that they should take it as a challenge, but instead, I fear that they take it as a justification for dismissal of anyone else's answer.
That is the case with the vast majority of them.
Like I said, it is my opinion that you cannot reach most flat earthers that are on the internet.
The first two types of flat earthers are the vast majority of them.
Like I said, it's like finding a needle in the haystack, finding a flat earther that you can have a legitimate conversation with.
And so when you do find one like that, it's like, wow, I hit the jackpot.
I might as well go buy a lottery ticket.
Yeah.
So I think I'm going to do my little closing up blurb here to wrap this up.
Absolutely.
So I recognize that a lot of people who are actively looking at this call it a flat earth conspiracy.
And that's just a terminology that a lot of people use.
But I actually disagree with that a little bit.
And here's why.
The conspiracy portion comes along as an additional piece.
It's the catch-all explanation that allows this unreal belief to fit with the rest of the known world.
It's the consequence of what about this and how do you explain this other thing that inevitably follows any such denial of reality.
The conspiracy is a fudge factor in the mind of a person that allows this obscene puzzle piece to fit with the rest of reality.
The more a person is questioned about the ways in which their belief doesn't fit with reality, the larger the conspiracy in their mind must become.
In the case of flat earth, the moon landing must be fake.
Everyone in NASA must be on the conspiracy.
But even once you debunk those things, even if you found that they, you know, the moon landing didn't happen and that NASA was really fake, that wouldn't make the Earth round because that wasn't how we discovered it was round in the first place.
But it's also so much more than that.
One must question whether Christopher Columbus ever actually sailed west from Spain to find the new world in 1492.
And after Columbus, what about all the other explorers who sailed west?
What about every sailor who ever used the stars to guide them in some direction or other once they were no longer in sight of land?
And none of what I've mentioned so far has anything to do with Antarctica and the so-called firmament.
One starts with the idea that the Earth is flat rather than spherical.
And in order to justify this belief in the face of the onslaught of disconfirming evidence, they must inevitably make the Earth, the Sun, the Moon, and the stars collectively into an even more complicated and confusing shape.
This is the consequence of a system of thinking that starts from the desired endpoint and works backward toward the things that support it.
This is politics applied to reality.
The result was determined first by a political goal.
The result of that political goal, in this case, is a flat Earth model that has to consistently shift and change to conform to our reality that it attempts at every turn to deny.
Now exchange flat Earth model in that last sentence with vaccine safety concerns, climate fiction, or the claims that Donald Trump actually won the election in 2020.
Then examine your own beliefs to see if you've ever believed anything that had to constantly change itself in shape to conform to reality.
And that's all I have.
If anyone has any questions or comments or concerns or feedback on anything that they've heard on this podcast, you can send that email to truthunrestricted at gmail.com.
And I want to thank, from the bottom of my heart, Red's Rhetoric for taking all the time that he spends moving against this because we need people that push back against these obscene ideas in every corner, even the ones that are so blatantly obvious as this, because it's possible for people to still believe that the Earth is flat when it's obviously not.