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Dec. 7, 2020 - This Past Weekend - Theo Von

01:52:39

E311 Tony Mandarich

One time lauded as the greatest offensive lineman prospect in NFL History, Tony Mandarich fell deep into the grip of addiction after being drafted 2nd overall in the 1989 draft by the Green Bay Packers. The addiction destroyed what once seemed destined to be a legendary career, but after washing out of the league and hitting rock bottom, Tony was able to get sober, get back into the league, and transform his life. Theo and Tony sit down to swap stories about injecting steroids, mainlining pain killers, burning bridges, and mending relationships. “Get That Hitter” Merch now available! https://theovonstore.com Follow Tony: https://instagram.com/tonymandarich New Merch: https://theovonstore.com This episode is brought to you by… Magic Mind Use code THEO at https://magicmind.co for 10% off Faherty https://fahertybrand.com/theo for 25% off Shipstation Try for free for 60 days at https://shipstation.com/ and use promo code Theo Music “Shine” - Bishop Gunn http://bit.ly/Shine_BishopGunn Hit the Hotline 985-664-9503 Video Hotline for Theo Upload here: http://bit.ly/TPW_VideoHotline Find Theo Website: https://theovon.com Instagram: https://instagram.com/theovon Facebook: https://facebook.com/theovon Facebook Group: https://facebook.com/groups/thispastweekend Twitter: https://twitter.com/theovon YouTube: https://youtube.com/theovon Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiEKV_MOhwZ7OEcgFyLKilw ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Producer Nick https://instagram.com/realnickdavis See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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	Today's episode is brought to you by Gray Block Pizza.
	Gray Block Pizza, 1811 Pico Boulevard in Los Angeles.
	If you want pizza, then you want Gray Block.
	Get that hitter, baby.
	Today's episode is also brought to you by Magic Mind.
	Flow State now comes in a bottle.
	And Flow State, that's not a woman that you met somewhere maybe outside of Detroit.
	Flowstate now comes in a bottle.
	Matcha, Notropics, Adoptogens, and a Hint of Honey.
	It's the ultimate nemesis to procrastination.
	Magic Mind.
	Get Magic Mind.
	Use promo code Theo to get 10% off magicmind.co.
	Today's guest was the second overall draft pick in the 1989 NFL draft, and maybe the largest offensive lineman that people had ever seen.
	He was on the cover of Sports Illustrated.
	He's lived many lives, to say the least.
	We're going to hear a lot about that.
	And he's transformed his own life through the power of recovery.
	He is a retired athlete, motivational speaker, and photographer, Mr. Tony Mandarich.
	I just left that parking brake and left myself on my eye.
	Shine that light on me.
	I'll sit and tell you my stories.
	Shine on me.
	And I will find a song I've been singing just before.
	I'll see you next time.
	I'm not proud of a lot of people.
	Thanks for coming, man.
	My friend Morgan Murphy, do you know who she is?
	She is a writer.
	She messaged you.
	I think she said at one time.
	Right.
	That's what she said.
	But she messaged me yesterday.
	She's like, oh, I'm so excited for this.
	I'm such a big Tony fan.
	I'm a big fan of the fan of his.
	Yes, she's a comedian and a writer.
	And she's like, I'm such a huge fan of his photography.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	She, I want to say about six months ago messaged me or had commented on DM on Instagram.
	And then I kind of looked her up because I saw she had that seal, like that she was who she was.
	Right.
	So I was like, well, I just want to, because I didn't know who she was.
	So I checked it out.
	I was like, oh, you know, she's a comedian and she's been to, I think, 10p improv and all that stuff.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yeah, she goes over to the comedy store a lot of people I know her from and then she's written on a bunch of shows.
	But it was just, you know, it's just interesting the people that will reach out when you have a certain guest coming on.
	Right, right.
	And it always, it always surprises me.
	Yeah, I told her if she's ever through Phoenix.
	Yeah, that's what she said.
	She just has him in, I guess.
	That's what she said.
	She's like, tell him I plan on seeing him at some point.
	Cool.
	Yeah, she's definitely a worthwhile, I mean, a lot of people are worthwhile having.
	She seems very straight up, very authentic.
	She's a cool chick.
	Yeah.
	Or cool, whatever she is.
	I mean, she's a woman, but yes, cool person.
	L-B-G-T-Q-Y-N.
	I don't know what letters to say these.
	My friend juggles now, and he said he feels left out.
	I'm going to call him the alphabet.
	Yeah, I know.
	I'm not referring to her.
	I'm just talking about.
	Oh, in general, it's hard.
	Can you imagine going to get your license now?
	Male, female, Hispanic, ghost, right?
	Yeah.
	I'm the alphabet.
	Somebody, yeah.
	But the thing is, it's just going to add up until it's just everything, and then it's going to come full circle.
	It's so stupid.
	Some things are getting absolutely ridiculous, man.
	You live, where do you live these days?
	I'm in Scottsdale.
	Oh, nice.
	How do you like it over there?
	I love it.
	I've been there since 04. 04-05.
	And what spurred the move over to there?
	You know, it was kind of...
	I own half of it.
	And I was just tired of...
	Or they can go not so good?
	So it didn't go like really bad, but it wasn't like I wasn't, I guess, receiving what I was promised I was going to receive.
	Okay.
	So I was kind of like, instead of making a big deal about it, I'm just going to get out of the business.
	And instead of giving them a two-week notice, I gave them a nine-month notice.
	Okay.
	Just so, you know, they could figure things out and stuff.
	Oh, yeah, like a baby.
	Yeah, right.
	I mean, there's plenty of time to figure stuff out.
	Yeah.
	I'm not just going to leave them hanging.
	So I literally sat at the kitchen table and I was like, if I could do anything anywhere, where would it be?
	And it was photography and it would be in the southwest.
	Although I didn't know if I was going to go Nevada, Cali, Utah, or Arizona.
	You know, I think Arizona was the pole for some reason, probably because of Sedona.
	No, no, no.
	I mean, I'm only an hour and a half from Sedona.
	A lot of seancers up there, a lot of wheelbarrows.
	Yeah, a lot of crystals.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, a lot of crystals.
	Oh, it's not crazy in Sedona to drive by a woman's house and see her charging her crystals out in the yard.
	Right, right.
	On the full moon.
	So she's wheelbarrowing them out there to charge up.
	Yeah, it's natural.
	It's probably my favorite place on the planet, but the crystal stuff, it doesn't even freak me out.
	It just makes me kind of go, whatever.
	Yeah.
	I'll drop out of this, right?
	I'm home.
	I'm like, cool, right?
	Whatever gets you through it.
	Exactly.
	It really is.
	Because what works for me may not work for them.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	It's kind of amazing how there's so many different, like, whether it be relics or deities.
	And there's so many different avenues for people to find comfort.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I mean, yeah, there is.
	And then sometimes there, like, I do, I used to do a lot more than I do now, but I used to do a lot of ritualistic things.
	Maybe I shouldn't say ritualistic, but just stuff like I would always tie my left shoe before I would tie my right.
	I would always put my left shoe on before my right shoe, like before a game, or just in day-to-day living.
	And then I forced myself to break that.
	I just said, I was like, I'm going to live wild on the edge.
	I'm going to put my right shoe on first.
	Oh, yeah, yeah.
	And I was like, oh, nothing happened today that was bad, so I'm good.
	You know, I'm going to tell you, I'm going to put this right.
	So you you started you.
	Was that tough?
	When I left the golf course?
	When you left the school.
	left for school.
	When you left the golf course, It was.
	Canada's awesome.
	It's freaking awesome.
	I love it.
	I mean, you know, I grew up in Canada until I was 15, and then my senior high school went to Ohio for the sole purpose of, besides the obvious of graduating from high school, but to get exposure to get a scholarship to a major American college.
	Because it was easier by if you're in the States.
	Yeah.
	And then it just so happened that the high school I ended up going to was in the same town as where my brother was going to college at Kent State.
	So he would become my legal guardian.
	So like we had to go to court and everything.
	My parents had to sign off.
	Wow.
	And they got you a home down there?
	No, I actually ended up living with my brother on an off-campus apartment.
	And were you guys, was that like kind of party central or were you so focused on that time on football?
	I was very focused, but there was, yeah, there was some partying.
	Like, I mean, it was the first time I ever got drunk, was, believe it or not, a senior high school.
	Yeah.
	I mean, a lot of people, it will surprise a lot of people, right?
	First time I ever dabbled in weed was for my senior high school.
	Yeah.
	So, yeah, so for some, that would almost seem a little bit late in the game.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	What, what is your height and weight now?
	What are you at now?
	I'm 6'5, probably about 265, 270.
	And what were you at when you were at your maximum beefed out, you know?
	Butcher box?
	The heaviest I ever got or the biggest I ever got was like, well, I was 6'6.
	I was an inch taller, but the compression gravity catches me.
	Oh, yeah.
	God will pull you back down.
	Right, right, right.
	I'd be four foot one if that was.
	It's like one of those, I'm glad I didn't get what I really deserved, right?
	Oh, totally, man.
	But I was like 333 was the biggest, like off-season biggest I got, and it was like just slinging weight around heavy, but playing weight, that was not a good playing weight.
	It wasn't a good playing weight.
	That's you right there.
	Damn, bro.
	KNAC.
	You and Jim Roman.
	My God, if I was a shark and I saw you surfing, I'd bite you, bro.
	No homo, bro.
	You know, or yes, homo.
	I don't know what they're doing now.
	What is it like carrying, um, what was it like carrying that much body weight around?
	Was there anything that started to be different?
	I've used steroids in myself growing up.
	So I have some experience of what it's like to have a body that's different than like – I took testosterone and then some other things.
	I don't even know what they were.
	So, but you got like, did you gain like what, 20 pounds?
	30 pounds?
	Yeah, I probably gained 30 pounds, yeah.
	So that's a significant amount of weight, right?
	Of muscle, mostly muscle.
	So you know that feeling, right?
	Well, here's the thing.
	In the offseason, I'd be like 333 and just to put muscle on, put size on.
	It was almost like, I don't want to say it was like bodybuilding where they have an offseason and they're putting on weight so they can cut down for a show.
	But I would try to do all my building and my bulking in the offseason, get all my strength.
	And then as the season got closer, and I mean like 16 weeks out, we'd start running.
	So, you know, as you're running, it makes sure it leans your muscles out and it's harder to keep like that big bulk.
	Yeah.
	But a good like playing weight for me was like 310.
	Like I, at 310, like I can honestly tell you, at 310, I felt like I was 150.
	Wow.
	Like, I could like run.
	Like, it was, I was like, I could stop on a dime.
	And like, that's what I felt like.
	Yeah.
	And, you know, you set up on a scale and you're 310.
	But I think it's like everything was so strong.
	Like, you know, your core is strong just from heaving all that weight.
	I mean, you don't even have to work your core.
	Yeah.
	At that point, if you're doing all the power cleans, you've been down and pick up a 100-pound dumbbell.
	Well, on a light day, right?
	100-pound dumbbell, but 150s, 160s.
	Totally.
	Right?
	Fucking meat head here.
	Oh, no.
	Oh, yeah.
	I'm going to jacked up.
	I'm like, I never walked like that.
	You're at home.
	You're curling your grandparents.
	You're just like, this is getting crazy.
	I'm like, you guys need to eat them.
	Do you remember the first time that you, when did you first start?
	And is it okay to talk about this kind of stuff?
	Okay, cool.
	Thank you.
	If you're comfortable with it.
	I am, man.
	I am.
	Our audience, a lot of our audiences, I mean, I don't know what, I mean, a lot of them, I think, need help, but we all do.
	And that's kind of where our audience all kind of meets each other is in that space where it's like, we're all imperfect creatures.
	Do you remember, so the first time you ever used steroids?
	Take me through a little bit.
	It was my senior year of high school in Kent, but it was, I shouldn't say, but that sounds like I'm making an excuse for it.
	It was in April slash May.
	So it was like the last two years or last two months of my senior year.
	So I had already signed a scholarship with Michigan State.
	So football was over.
	You had already been doing really well at football.
	Yeah.
	And well enough.
	See, I was lucky because our team, our high school team had like five like tier one.
	Like Marie Cruz.
	Right.
	I mean, they like, you know, Ohio's, like all these big schools were coming to watch those guys.
	And the whole plan was, well, let's keep our fingers crossed.
	They noticed me.
	And they did.
	And they did.
	So the move down to America, the move to Ohio, the living with your brother, all that was really, I mean, you guys must have been living a little bit like, wow, this is all panning out.
	Well, yeah.
	Well, and you put a plan together, right?
	Right.
	So, I mean, we literally put the plan on paper.
	This is the plan.
	And let's not continue the plan until this gets executed.
	Because if it doesn't work, then there's no reason for the other plan.
	Right.
	Because I don't want to make a plan B. Right.
	As soon as you make plan B, you screwed yourself on plan A. It's like, oh, I've only got this to fall back on.
	Oh, plan B has a lot of pizza in it.
	Right.
	I always know that.
	And weed, apparently, you know.
	Yeah, and weed, too.
	Nick gets all excited when we say it.
	That's only because he's.
	But yeah, the sole purpose of the Ohio move was literally to get a scholarship.
	So you got that.
	So right at the end of high school, so you start, that's when you get to the point.
	That's when I started the steroids and the catalyst was My brother.
	He did.
	Yeah.
	He was into it.
	Yeah.
	Cool.
	And he's, you know, my hero and my mentor, my idol.
	You know, he passed away when he was 31 from cancer.
	I was in like 93, 1993, February 8th of 93. And, but, you know.
	I'm sorry to hear that, man.
	That's heartbreaking.
	Yeah.
	It was, you know, and you know, it was like the toughest part about that is I was like so in the bag, messed up with alcohol and painkillers at that time.
	You know, it's like I wasn't there sober.
	Right.
	Right.
	You weren't that you've been like, oh man.
	Yeah.
	But, you know, it's like there's tools to deal with that stuff, you know, and stuff.
	And I've dealt with it and I'm good with it.
	You know, and, but the what was he like, what was he like, your brother?
	Sorry to interrupt you.
	He was, he was the best.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	He was the best.
	He, he taught me so many things.
	Like he taught me so many things that, and did so many things that today would be considered abuse, you know.
	He made me, I remember one time, it was like a Friday.
	I already got the scholarship and everything.
	And it was a Friday we were working out.
	And so I'm a high school senior.
	He's a college senior and he's working out with his lifting partner who's a bodybuilder.
	And this is in Kent.
	And Kent at that time was a really small town.
	And I was just gassed.
	I was tired.
	And I was like, you know what?
	I'm just going to chill today.
	I'm not going to work out.
	But I got to go to the gym because he's my ride home.
	Oh, yeah.
	And the gym from the high school was like a walking distance.
	And the walk back to the apartments was like two, three miles.
	I mean, it's not like, it's not walking distance, but a huge snowstorm.
	Oh, yeah.
	And I was like, I'm just not going to lift.
	And I could see them both like shocked.
	And because I loved lifting, but I was tired.
	And they freaking ripped into me.
	Like, it was, I mean, it was life-changing.
	It was life-changing because.
	They were like Tony Robbins, John.
	No, they, no, that would have been nice.
	Tony Montana.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Damn.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Say, yeah, say hello.
	Say hello to my big fans.
	Yeah, they were like, you think fucking, you know, you know, John Smith, who's at Michigan State right now in his third year, is going to, you know, not take it easy on you when you get there.
	You're going to knock your, you know what off when you get there.
	He's like, they're like, because I think that they thought, and maybe I did, or maybe it seemed that way, that I thought that, okay, well, I got the scholarship already.
	I'm good.
	You know, I can chill now.
	And I never really was like that.
	But they really were like, you know.
	Stay on top of you.
	Yeah, which is good.
	Right.
	I think.
	Where today it'd be like, oh, you're pushing somebody too much.
	It's like, no, look, it's support.
	I've looked at it like they were supporting me.
	I had to walk home in that blizzard.
	Oh, man.
	I'm so glad it happened.
	Oh, I'll run a 4-1 in a blizzard.
	With the wind behind you.
	Oh, yeah, dude.
	With the wind behind you.
	I run about a 415 or 450 or 4. I run about a 4120.
	I think 520.
	Plus an 8-240.
	Well, you got some momentum going, so you're probably in the seven-second mark.
	Dude, I run a job.
	Okay, I'll be honest with you.
	I run as fast as I have to.
	Did you think, do you think, like, looking back on it, that you did, like, because I get curious as to, like, I remember I was working at a restaurant.
	They had a bus boy there that was an older guy, and he was doing steroids.
	And so we would go to the gym together, and next thing you know, it was just like something we did.
	Right.
	You know, and he was older than me, this guy.
	So sometimes I looking back, I wonder, would I have done it if it wasn't like an older person, if it had just been a buddy?
	I don't think too much on it, but sometimes I just like to look back at like, you know, where was like the influence coming from?
	Or was the influence coming from inside of me, like wanting something different or wanting a different experience, you know, wanting to like put anything into myself to replace something inside of me that was missing?
	You know?
	Yeah, which is a story of our lives.
	Totally.
	Right.
	Which later in life I can replace.
	I'm replacing something that's already inside of me.
	Yeah.
	But I'm looking for external answers or external things to fill that void.
	But really the answer is inside of me.
	Right.
	But it doesn't feel like it is because it feels like there's nothing inside of me.
	Once you get sober, clear-headed, and kind of can start reflecting on life as you get older, that's when, at least for me, my experiences, I start to see, I was like the dog chasing my tail.
	Yeah.
	Looking for this, looking for that.
	And it's like the whole answer is like with me the whole time.
	Yeah.
	It's just like stop, take a look, slow down, you know, breathe.
	Yeah.
	But the catalyst for the actual steroid taking was I couldn't bench 315 because that's three big plates on each side.
	Oh, yeah.
	But I could do 295 for like five reps, but I couldn't do 315 for one.
	So it was like a psychological block.
	And I got on like some really light steroids and like within two weeks, I was like at three benching like 325.
	Damn.
	So I was like, they definitely were.
	Well, we got on some Vietnamese shit one time.
	I don't even think it helped me lift.
	It helped me cook.
	It definitely helped me.
	Like I could run away.
	I'm not even joking.
	I could cook over a fire suddenly in my yard, but I could not fucking do it.
	Because we got some gutter steroids that came through, man.
	Like we got like bottom of the barrel.
	Was it like top of it tape clothes?
	It wasn't even sealed and stuff.
	I remember one time we all went to Mexico on a class trip, so we came back.
	Literally, people would buy steroids and then put them in shampoo bottles, just kind of rinse them out a little.
	No, and just pour it in there.
	Oh, my God.
	So then for like people are just pulling up at this dude's house and just syringing out of this, you know, head and shoulders.
	Unreal.
	You know, and that's it.
	I mean, it got you both of those.
	Pharmaceutical grade.
	Holy smokes.
	But yeah, we had some of the cleanest muscles in town.
	Right.
	We'll say that.
	Well, you're willing to go to any lengths, right?
	Oh, totally.
	That's the question.
	I really was.
	Yeah, and so was I, and I am today, too, in certain areas of my life.
	But it was like, I'm going to do whatever I got to do to be the best player I can be, like, within the rules.
	Right.
	But stairwicks were breaking the rules.
	So those were within the rules at the time.
	No, no, they were breaking the rules.
	Oh, they were.
	Yeah, they were.
	So, and so there was a day where I had to make a conscious decision.
	It's like, I'm not going to kill it.
	I'm not going to sit here and lie to myself because I wasn't like hooked on painkillers.
	I wasn't drinking alcoholically or nothing like that at that time.
	I was like, is it worth it?
	And it was.
	And it was, yeah.
	I mean, looking back at everything and you know what?
	It was worth it.
	And the least amount of that worth it is monetary.
	Even though it helped me make millions of dollars.
	Right.
	The least, the greatest worth and value in that are the lessons learned in life from taking them.
	But at the time, you didn't know that, though.
	Right.
	But I had to make a conscious decision: will I ever look back and regret and saying, like, what could I have been?
	You know what I'm saying?
	So I was like, I'm going to go to any lengths.
	Plus, and this is not to like, I'm not like blaming anybody, but the atmosphere was like, you know, end of the 70s, it happened.
	So this was 1983, 84. So who won four championships in the NFL in the 70s?
	Steelers.
	Right?
	I thought it was.
	Remember, they won two in a row.
	Except with Bradshaw?
	Yeah, and all those guys.
	And there were like, you know.
	Jerry Olshansky was out there?
	I don't know him, but.
	But Webster and Steve Corson, all these old linemen, they were, I mean, all jacked up, right?
	And it was obvious.
	Yeah.
	And I was like, in my head, and my brother kind of felt the same way, was like, the only road to the NFL is through steroids.
	Oh, interesting.
	Or at least it's a spoke in the wheel.
	Yeah.
	And especially, I think, as a white guy, you got to get on something, you know?
	For what?
	I mean, just, no, just, oh, I think, no, you just got to get, if I'm a white guy, I'm getting on steroids due to anything.
	Listen, can you imagine if someone had a drug for that?
	Yeah.
	Oh, man.
	How rich they'd be?
	Oh, yeah.
	Well, hell, we sell them half of our ads.
	Give me some samples, bro.
	I'm sure we got some.
	But it was like when I say this, I say it literally.
	I try not to be in too much gray area because that's kind of how I lived my life.
	And the older I got, I started to realize I thought I had to be in gray area somewhat, but it's not.
	It's just being more tolerant and flexible of the way other people are.
	But I can make it crystal clear on what I'm about and what I believe in and what I don't believe in.
	And then all the variables in between.
	So I knew I was taking them.
	I knew it was wrong.
	I knew I was breaking the rules, whether I was taking pills and injections or both.
	But I was like, I'm going to, you know, their testing was so mediocre.
	Yeah.
	And, you know, I think that I became kind of like a red flag to the NCAA because like we did them well.
	Right.
	Or I should say I did them.
	I did them the correct way to get the most out of them.
	And I didn't, like, I held nothing back in the training.
	And that was whether it was running, whether it was lifting.
	Oh, I see.
	You didn't try to mask it.
	You almost didn't even mask it.
	You were doing them.
	You just heard it from the tests.
	Right.
	And I didn't go around telling people.
	And I always, whenever the question was asked, do you do steroids by the media?
	My answer would always be like, I've never tested positive for steroids.
	Right.
	So it's like, you got to be pretty dumb not to read between the lines.
	Exactly.
	Yeah, there's only two lines.
	Right.
	If you had a comma, there's only one.
	That's really true, man.
	There's a, I remember one thing that got me, I remember about, and I've just, we haven't had anybody in here I don't think that's ever that has ever done stereo that I knew of so it's like it's just for me it's interesting to talk about because we talk about it on the podcast sometimes over the years and um so I remember being in class one day and some kid was a new kid in class and he thought I was going through the hall the the aisles picking up people's papers or something for the teacher right and he thought I was the teacher's husband
	and I think because I'd been doing stuff I would suddenly look stronger I just looked stronger right and you know and I just the you know at that time the thought that somebody would you know I would be married to somebody that knew first of all that even knew mathematics as well as this lady did you know like it almost just was flattering you know like holy shit you think that's my wife that's pretty cool she drove here you know what I'm saying like this is a real lady over there but I just remember that one moment that like I don't know I just felt
	like people saw me I just felt more confident I felt stronger my I just and right right then man those feelings were feelings that I never had are they good or what oh right bro they were so good right they were so good and then uh but you also did the work you also worked out right oh I was we worked out all the time and I you know dieted properly and I you know you would get on milk thistle and all these things you would hear about to kind of take care of yourself um but it was definitely like it
	was interesting how I went from if you'd asked me two weeks before would you ever do steroids I'd have said no way but then suddenly I was over a line right and for me in a lot of my areas of life that that that became something sometimes I really don't want to look at the truth that there's a lot of lines that I've crossed in my life that I probably wish I hadn't you know I remember thinking oh I'll never hook up with a married woman you know and then cross that line just like things that like like where you're saying like setting kind of boundaries or
	who you are and things that you do will and won't do right I had those things but I always went past them and then would live and still probably live with a ton of the shame from a lot of it you know and that's you know and a lot of the stuff you described I mean you're it's like were you following me around right it's like you know like like everybody's done stuff that where they've kind of set their boundaries or these are my code of ethics like my personal code of ethics and then you know you cross them and
	and I think when you're younger at least the majority of the people I've encountered as far as friends and stuff the younger you are the more kind of like ah screw it it's okay the older you get the the road narrows and stuff that you could do a couple years ago or five years ago that were maybe not the most ethically you know right be a man stand up and be a man like kind of thing because standing up and being a man today is not about how big your muscles are yeah it's about doing the right thing it's
	changed a lot it's changed a lot and and i think i think it's changed for the better even though we're in a present circumstance of debacle it's been such a great year to watch people and how messed up people are and and And to be like, man, I just want some toilet paper and it's not even a shit disease.
	Right.
	Right.
	And it's like, why is everybody hoarding toilet paper?
	And I was like, six rolls will last me six weeks, seven weeks.
	I'm good.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	It's like, but there's nothing on the, there was what, in March, April, it was like nothing to get.
	Yeah.
	It just, it just, it was interesting to watch people panic because, you know, you're sober, I'm sober.
	So we know, like, in a way, like, I feel lucky that I had a lot of hardship because, and the reason I feel lucky is because I've put perspective on it.
	And I've also, the tragedy would be if I didn't change it.
	If I kept living that way, well, that'd be the tragedy, right?
	And, but it gave me perspective to change it.
	So my four years in Green Bay were a train wreck.
	And I was, there wasn't, you know, a single day in Green Bay where I was like stone cold sober.
	It was either some kind of a pill in me that was anything that would alter me from the chin up, right?
	In my brain, where I was drinking or I was doing something.
	Now, that doesn't mean I was sloppy down, falling down, drunk drinking, but I would need a drink to stop the shakes and then go to practice.
	Wow.
	Well, it's kind of hard to pass block in the NFL, period, let alone when you're half in the bag.
	Yeah.
	So, you know, looking back at a lot of those things and being going through all that pain, like I got into so much emotional pain, I was sick and tired of my own bullshit.
	Oh, man.
	It's exactly where I'm at right now.
	I'm just tired of myself.
	That's when we change.
	You're sick of yourself.
	Right.
	Like, literally, people are like, what are you on?
	And you're like, I'm on myself.
	Right.
	And it's fucking killing me.
	Like, it, people don't understand sometimes.
	And that's a lot of what I think addiction is for me.
	I don't even know sometimes if I've ever had a lot of chemical dependency as much as I, the way I'm feeling affects me so heavily like it's a drug.
	Like to the point where it's like, and then I become addicted to it and at the same time suffering from it.
	And I think people sometimes can't understand some of that, like what it's like to feel that way.
	And it's, and they're like, you're a wimp or you're this.
	Man, it's like, you think I don't want, you think I want to feel this way every day when I wake up?
	You think I want to be angry or be miserable or, you know, like, no, this is something is happening to me and it's hard to handle.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	And, and, you know, I mean, listen, you're, it's like, again, are you following me around?
	Cause you're telling me my story, right?
	It's exactly how I feel.
	And I don't feel, I still get definitely times like that, but less and less.
	Yeah.
	And, and it'll change.
	And I've been, you know, over 25 years now, almost 26 years sober.
	And, but you know what?
	Like the first three years were like just like, you could have cut me off.
	You could have done robbed me.
	I would have been like, all right, here you go.
	Cool.
	Have a good day.
	I was so happy not to be miserable.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Oh, the beginning of sobriety when you're like, when you see, when something happens, there's a perspective switch in the way you've seen the world and the way that it really is.
	God, bro.
	Yeah.
	It literally, like, you talked about the four or five days or two weeks before you took the steroids.
	You never thought you would take steroids.
	Four days before I got sober, I never thought I'd be at a treatment center four days later.
	Wow.
	And that was a decision I made.
	Right.
	And because of the emotional pain.
	And I was just looking in the mirror disgusted at what I saw.
	And I was like, what a bunch of bullshit and lies and deceit.
	And it just gets so hard.
	You stack up so much stuff.
	It's just too heavy.
	And it's so interesting.
	You had so much weight on your body, like so much.
	And it was like, but then you get this relief of all of this fucking weight.
	It's crazy, isn't it?
	Which is just almost so ironic in your life in your space.
	But in today, like, like you talk about, like today's circumstance, when I do feel the way, like, you know, if I feel I have a shitty day or it's like, like I'm sabotaging myself or whatever, I know why it's because I'm not connected.
	I'm not either talking to people or I'm not, or I haven't, like for me, I haven't hit my knees in the morning and asked for help.
	Well, when you're, I think that this is a powerful thing.
	When you're six, five, like now, six, five, 265, whatever, when you hit your knees and you are praying to the God of your belief and asking for help through the day and asking about what you can add to the stream of life instead of sucking out of the stream of life for a change, that's a pretty humbling experience when you're that big a stature.
	So, you know, I was doing that when I was six, six, you know, playing for the Colts at 6'6, 315, 320, strong as an ox.
	And it's a very humbling experience knowing how powerful you are.
	Right.
	And I could make stuff happen.
	Like I can make things happen by the old phrase, just grab the bull by the horns.
	Just make it happen.
	If you got to step on people's toes, do it.
	Just make it happen.
	It's like, I don't care how you got to block this guy.
	Just don't get a penalty and block him.
	I don't care if you got to take his knees out, whatever, right?
	It's like go to any lengths to protect your quarterback.
	So it's kind of like that, but it's like, you know, it's when you have that stature, that size, that power, and you're in the weight room slinging weight around and all this.
	But in the morning, you know, when you get on your knees and ask for help, that's a humbling, it's a humbling act.
	Yeah.
	And, you know, it's like, it's basically saying, you know, I can't do this by myself.
	I tried and almost killed myself.
	Yeah.
	Almost killed myself trying.
	Yeah.
	Because I'll never forget when I'm in the treatment center in Detroit and it was no fancy treatment center.
	And this was the first time you ever went into treatment.
	First time ever.
	So you went in and got it.
	I'm not going to do it again.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	And, okay, take us there.
	No, the girl, the girl, the lady counselor.
	It was our first like small like 10 people session with a counselor.
	And it was all our first time with this meeting.
	And she goes, so before we start, she's like, this isn't pointing anybody out.
	She's like, this applies to everybody.
	She's like, just before we start, I just want you all to know that all of your best plans of building your empires and building everything got you here in this treatment center in Detroit, Michigan.
	And I can see like, you know, I 90 or whatever it is going by in the Interstate, I'm going, she's right.
	And I was like, talking about a Louisville slugger coming across your forehead, going, Holy shit!
	That reality.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I mean, funny now wasn't funny then.
	Yeah.
	But I'm trying to think of some of those first moments that, you know, whenever I went into the rooms, because mostly I learned about recovery through my family.
	I have siblings that are, you know, in and out or been in the program and probably my father.
	I mean, I think so many people struggle with addiction and different things.
	But I remember getting, I remember I drove through the parking lot one night of a room that's not far from where I live.
	And I was talking to my brother or something the next day.
	And he said, well, you know, who's not thinking about getting treatment?
	And I said, I said, who?
	He goes, people that aren't driving through that parking, you know what I'm saying?
	Like, not everybody's driving through the parking lot of an AA center last night.
	You know what I'm saying?
	Like, there's something inside of you that's curious, that's thinking.
	And I think sometimes it is.
	There's a magnet that's created by that program.
	You know, last night I went to a meeting and I went over to a buddy's house and I got there and I hadn't been in probably like three months to his meeting.
	And it's just like six or seven guys sitting outside by a fire.
	And I get there and suddenly like I walked around the group and just hugged like every guy there.
	I know them all.
	And it was funny because I just had the worst day and I get there and I was like, man, I didn't know that I was going to hug all these guys when I got here.
	I forgot that, and they were all so excited to see me, like each individually.
	We have our own little relationship.
	I'd forgot that all these guys cared about me.
	And I forgot that I cared about them.
	Yeah.
	And unless I like the half-life or the residual effect of like care, it doesn't, the shelf life isn't long inside of me for some long.
	It's, you know, it's really, it's almost like the shells are like at an angle.
	And when somebody puts care on them, they just slide.
	It just, and I don't know why.
	I think it was just the way the shells were built or something, you know, but it was just crazy because next thing you know, it was like the best moment of my day.
	And all these guys was like, man, I always feel like nobody cares, but these guys care.
	They all care.
	And I care about them.
	And I just forget, it just, it doesn't stick to my ribs like I wish it would a lot of times.
	So that's why I think some people are like, man, you chase your tail a lot.
	It's like, because I forget that the tail is there.
	I forget that how it grew.
	The tail's wagging the dog.
	Yeah, right.
	Oh, yeah.
	It's like, I don't know.
	It's just, it's all fascinating, man.
	The program is pretty fascinating, you know, recovery.
	It works.
	So take us a little bit more.
	So you have that experience with your brother, kind of, and then you get into it.
	And then you're playing at Michigan State then?
	Yep.
	And you're doing, and so at that point, you're on Cerro.
	You're getting into it.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yeah.
	Like my brother had got drafted in the first round of the Canadian Football League, so he went up to Edmonton.
	Oh, for the Eskimos?
	Yeah.
	Oh, Ricky.
	Who played up there, quarterback?
	Warren Moon was just done.
	He went to Houston.
	Who just played up there?
	Ricky.
	He just played a few years ago, six, seven years ago.
	I couldn't tell you six, seven years ago.
	But it was Dunne, I think, was the quarterback.
	Matt Dunigan was the quarterback when my brother played there.
	And then that year he got drafted was the same year I went to Michigan State.
	Okay.
	Because he was already done with Kent State.
	So was that tough when he left and you're still there?
	Or it was at that point you were all familiar with?
	No, we sat down and we made a new plan.
	Dang.
	Because it was like, all right, this plan is executed.
	Now let's make another plan.
	And then, so we made a general plan.
	He reached his goals to getting drafted.
	He obviously wanted to get drafted in the NFL, but, you know, wasn't, you know, I guess it's a nice Canada, though.
	They apologize for Saxon.
	They pick a guy out and stuff.
	Yeah, sorry, man.
	Here they're like stepping on a guy's throat.
	Bro, Canada, some people come across the street just to apologize to you.
	They didn't even do anything.
	Hey, have you ever been to a Tim Hortons?
	Oh, yeah.
	It was good or what?
	Yeah, that's really good.
	Cake donuts and stuff.
	It's like, you can get a meal there.
	What do you have for dinner?
	Eight chocolate donuts?
	Aren't those fluffy?
	No, they're like cake donuts.
	They're good.
	Timbits, you know, those little Tim Bits.
	Oh, yeah.
	I love going into Tim Hortons.
	Every time I go, people are like, what do you like to see in Canada?
	And I'm like, Tim Hortons.
	They're all a little different.
	Right, right, right, right, right.
	Oh, what's that on the roof?
	A reindeer, maybe?
	What is it?
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	We had a question that came in.
	This is a question that came in from a young man right here.
	About your time at Michigan State.
	He had a kind of a long preamble, so I'm going to.
	For Tony, is, well, first of all, I grew up in East Lansing, so I'm familiar kind of with the incredible bulk, the folklore, the story of the incredible bulk.
	But I was curious, and I know a lot of other people are going to be asking questions about steroids and small penis things, and I'm sure.
	But what was the academic life of a 1980s football star like?
	Did you go to class?
	Did people do your work for you?
	Or maybe you were really diligent in class?
	I don't know, but I suspect that it was different from the stereotypical college students experience.
	That's a great question.
	That is a great question.
	It's a great question.
	So, I mean, I'll be 100% transparent.
	I went to class.
	I didn't graduate.
	I was like 12 credits short of graduating.
	And then I moved to Cali after the Gator Bulls, our last game.
	And then I would have to go through spring semester and graduate.
	And I already knew I was going to get drafted.
	So you're just like, I just went to Cali and moved to Whittier, trained with my trainer, and just it was balls to the walls for the next six months.
	Training.
	What was the studying like when were you at school?
	You know, it was, you know what?
	I guess I'd be lying if I said there was no favoritism because there wasn't favoritism.
	Favoritism is not a good word.
	There were certain things that were made just a little bit more convenient for us.
	But it's really, at the end of the day, it comes down to what you make it.
	Right.
	Because if I wanted, I mean, Michigan State's known as a great agricultural school and great veterinary school.
	So if I really applied myself, which I wish I would have, like in something like business administration or, you know, something that there's fundamentals of business that will be timeless.
	Right.
	Right.
	Obviously the internet changed a lot of that, but still relationships are a fundamental of business.
	Yeah.
	So, but, you know, I took public relations and marketing, which is still good, even though the marketing these days is so different than the marketing would have been in the 80s, like print marketing and stuff and or public relations or whatever.
	But that also did help me.
	Yeah, but that did help me with a lot of the, you know, PR stuff with interviews and just, you know, stuff like that.
	So you were going to class sometime.
	Yeah, I mean, we had tutors at our disposal, but, you know, like my day would start at 7 a.m.
	and but you know, you have to be at practice at 3 and I'd have classes all the way up to like about an hour and a half before practice, classes all day before practice, and then you'd practice for two hours and then you'd have to watch film and then they'd have study hall, mandatory study hall at the football facility.
	Right.
	So they'd have tutors come in if we wanted them and there'd be tutors available and then or you could just stay in study hall like it was mandatory by the coach.
	And were you a prize pig at this point?
	Were you like one of like the heroes on the squad?
	When I went there?
	Yeah.
	No, I was just one of the guys in this class.
	There was some studs that came in my class.
	Did y'all ever play against Rudy from that movie?
	No, we ain't that old.
	Yeah, good.
	I can't remember who they played.
	Notre Dame.
	That was Notre Dame.
	He played for Notre Dame, but we played Notre Dame every year.
	Yeah.
	But no, he's probably 10 years older.
	Next generation.
	So the academics were not, I mean, it wasn't like, there was no like, no freebies given.
	Right.
	You know, there were some, I would always have like, I would say one course a semester that was kind of like you pretty much, if you attended it, you're pretty much going to pass.
	Right.
	It almost sounds like anybody's college period.
	I mean, I remember going in, like, the Greek kids always had all the tests somehow.
	Right, right.
	Like, that was insane.
	How the fuck does this girl, just because she's kind of hot, you know, Rebecca has the fucking test?
	You know what I'm saying?
	Dude, she's never done anything.
	But it was crazy to have like people really studying, and then you would just go over to somebody's house night four, and they would have the same, it was just college sometimes was crazy.
	I remember getting paid by that coach one time to write papers for some of the players even.
	So I think there's always been some of that in school, you know, just like that athletes get help.
	Yeah.
	They get a sport.
	But I think they should because their time is taken up with practice, too.
	Right.
	And so that being said, their time is taken up with practice, plus how much revenue does that sport bring into that school?
	So, and that's not saying, hey, look, the other sports don't matter.
	Yes, they matter.
	But a lot of those other sports at that school or any school wouldn't exist.
	Like, I'm not talking about basketball.
	I'm talking about.
	I'm not even going to say it because I don't want to offend it.
	I'm not going to say it.
	I'm not going to say anything.
	Between titles eight and ten.
	Right.
	And it's like, it's like, you know, I respect anybody that wants to compete and do something that they love to do.
	But the money comes from that.
	That's where a lot of the rest of the.
	And in Michigan State is football and basketball.
	Right.
	So.
	Which, by the way, they beat Duke yesterday.
	Did they?
	Yeah.
	I didn't see that.
	I saw Kentucky loss last night, I think, to Kansas.
	Was there an opportunity for you to play basketball at some point?
	Seriously?
	Yeah.
	No.
	They never said, hey, guy.
	I would have.
	I would have said, hey, guy.
	Inter-mural, maybe.
	Oh, really?
	I wasn't the last guy I picked an intermural team.
	Okay.
	But no.
	Michigan State, like they were, I mean, Magic Johnson had just left there.
	Wow.
	Like, three, four years prior.
	And they were, like, stacked.
	And they were, I mean, that's big time basketball.
	Yeah.
	I mean, they're good.
	I mean, you know, Indiana's big-time basketball, too.
	Because at that time, it was Bobby Knight was there.
	Oh, wow.
	And the head coach at State now for basketball was an assistant to Judd Heathcote when I was there.
	So I've got to watch this coach just, you know, blossom over the last 30 years.
	So you get, so you go through Michigan State and then you get drafted.
	And by then, you're like a hero.
	That's when we see like the big pictures of you.
	That's when we see you like, you know, really kind of put on this.
	I don't know.
	What was that like?
	Like, take me through a little bit of that.
	Like, did you kind of start that legend of yourself or was that all kind of media created?
	I know that Sports Illustrated came out like the day before the draft or a couple days before.
	Yeah.
	Or, you know, one of the famous.
	Yeah, that's right on that's right on Venice Beach, actually.
	Damn, dude, let me tell you this, bro.
	If you wanted to start an all-men's football team today on Venice Beach, bro, that picture would get it done.
	I'll tell you this, half the men would be wearing roller skates, but you could.
	Like the four skates or the blades.
	Rainbow socks?
	Rainbow socks?
	We're talking inline.
	We're talking inline, but out of line.
	You feel me, Daddy?
	So take, I mean, because like that, that image right there, especially for people that are looking at Sports Illustrated, like that's the thing that comes in the mail where it's like, okay, I didn't know about this guy, and now I know about this guy.
	And then I go to the water cooler, and I'm talking about like I've known about this guy forever.
	Right.
	Yeah, it was like a phenomenon.
	It was, it was, it really, like, it was almost overnight.
	Like that for me, it wasn't like any different.
	Like, I was like working my ass off every day to be the best.
	Right.
	I woke up like literally every day being like, what can I do today to get myself better?
	And were you doing stairways that whole time?
	When I was at school?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And did you feel like, do you, did you ever, I guess, did you have the, like, were you afraid to probably get off them at that point?
	I would be afraid to get off.
	Well, I mean, I was just going to math.
	I would have been afraid to get off of them.
	You were collecting papers from the students.
	You were married to the teacher, though.
	That was crazy.
	You know, yeah.
	I mean, if I had my preference, I would not have got off of them.
	But the, you know, the NFL's testing was way more sophisticated.
	So was that scary then you're getting drafted and you know that like you know it wasn't as scary as you might think and this is why because I've I've looked back at this in my life and every time I took steroids and then got like if I got on for 12 or 16 weeks and then got off for 12 weeks and then got back on I would lose about 10 15 maximum 20% of my strength well and then you know so every time you cycle you compound that strength and you keep getting stronger stronger so
	when I got drafted I mean if you're benching close to 600 pounds and you lose 15 or 20 percent of your strength you're still pretty strong yeah and you're still pretty much stronger than a lot of the guys in the NFL so really wasn't that much of a concern the psychological effect of steroids are as well as they work physically the multiplier on the psychological effect in my opinion are at least five to tenfold um like you know that feeling you were talking about earlier like when you feel like yeah yeah like and then then you don't have that feeling yeah right and
	you're going to another level oh that would be to me that's only it don't it give me anxiety right now hearing you say that like okay i'm walking into this place and suddenly like some of the wet the sword is my sword's different right and all the expectations all the shit talking i did not on steroids anymore still all the accusation i was like you know and i was like i'm definitely not gonna do steroids because it's gonna everybody's gonna be like see he told you so he tested positive right so but you know what the the thing was like that there was definitely that was a spoke in the wheel
	but everybody was like no that is the reason the only reason and it was perfect for me because it was like there's so much distraction there was focusing on steroids i was over here taking 89 painkillers a day conning all these pharmacists and doctors that's crazy so it took kind of like the thing like the concentration away from something they didn't know about because they kept saying steroids well i was half in the bag all the time so at this point this is when you start to realize you probably have some addiction issues looking back it's easy to see it but were you able to see that at the time or
	not really um my fourth year there third or fourth year there well actually my third year there i knew it was mainlining pharmaceutical painkillers that was the problem when in green bay you mean yeah dang i knew that was the problem so i'm just gonna switch to livestock country too because you're getting good shit you know what i'm saying like you're talking dairy stuff oh you're getting something wrong i'm surprised you weren't making your own milk i probably could have look at what you're sucking on this
	titty i'll just give it a minute jesus like you wake up ready to work at least like that aluminum machine up on you oh yeah dude i've had fresh milk right off of the animal it's not that good i don't think that's good it's not that good and it's hot yeah it's really overrated in like a lot of the you know old school pictures and stuff you see but um yeah oh and we don't have to talk about sorry i mean i want to talk about your whole life you know i just know it's you know i just know that it's interesting and it's something that i could kind of relate to yeah you
	know um and the addiction like i never thought i had a problem with drugs until it came to the painkillers that's because i was like i like when you go through physical withdrawal whether it's alcohol or painkillers they're different types but listen it's pain right it's not a good comfortable feeling and you were putting it in your vein yeah i was mainlining it right there with the and see the mark oh i could hit that vein right a little basketball oh dude i could hit that thing You could tell I was right-handed, right?
	I didn't need a tourniquet, right?
	Because I was all veiny anyways, but I knew that that was the problem.
	That's the rationalization kicked in, right?
	I know it's the mainlining that's killing me, so I'm just going to switch to oral painkillers.
	Wow.
	Well, then you're taking 60, 70, 80, 90 a day.
	And what were you on?
	What were some different things you were on at the time?
	A lot of the basic stuff you'll hear, Perkadam, Percassette.
	There was one called Fear in All Three that I really liked.
	Fur in All Three?
	I thought it was a movie.
	Yeah, right?
	It's not the sequel, but the third.
	Is it Wesley Snipes in that?
	You know, Fear and All Three, how about this?
	Every year, Jason versus Freddie, isn't it?
	Within myself, right?
	It was a dark neighborhood up here.
	And there were some dark alleys, boy, I tell you.
	But there was, yeah, there was like Fear and All, like you probably don't remember this because it was before the internet.
	There was something called a PDR and it stood for Physician's Desk Reference.
	And if you'd ever go to your doctor's office back then, they'd have this big, thick, it looked like a big old encyclopedia.
	Well, it had every drug made that year or that was available that year.
	So I would like, this is the lengths I would go to to get the narcotics.
	I would find which ones are not triplicates, like triplicate copies of a prescription.
	Okay.
	Now it's all digital and stuff, even though they get right physical.
	If it's a triplicate, one of the forms goes to the DEA.
	One goes to the doctor and one, I think, goes to the pharmacy or something.
	Well, the trick was to find something that was like a class or like a duplicate.
	Okay.
	Because then it only goes to the pharmacy and your doctor.
	And the pharmacies all weren't integrated.
	So you could like, if there was Walgreens on this corner, it's not connected to that Walgreens.
	I mean, it might be on paperwork.
	Right.
	It might be at a crypto.
	It's not on the corner.
	That was the old internet.
	Tony keep coming by and get all these refills, right?
	Wow.
	But yeah, so I would look for the duplicates, but that still had the certain chemicals that I knew would mind alter.
	Wow, so you were in it.
	Yeah.
	And then, so that was a duplicate, that injection.
	And it was mainly used for women that started labor because they didn't want to numb them too much because they still had to push.
	But it would give them enough of a relief to take the edge off the pain.
	So that was like for somebody like a drug addict, it's trying to, you know, it's perfect.
	Perfect.
	Yeah.
	I just go to the bathroom, but I'm going to be fucked up.
	Right, right, exactly.
	Where was your head at at that point?
	My ass?
	And there's 11 days sobers on my ass.
	How much, sure.
	How much, what was your ego like at that point?
	I saw, because it's funny, I saw a David Letterman interview out there of yours, and it's hilarious, bro.
	You have so many funny lines in it.
	Did you like my theo haircut?
	Yeah, I did.
	Did you notice that?
	I knew you were on your way.
	This is definitely a sign that you're going to end up in recovery.
	Right.
	Nothing tells you that.
	But this interview, I thought you were just so – And then to be sitting there, and you went toe-to-toe with him with a lot of great comedy, a lot of great barbs.
	He had a lot of great lines.
	Where was your ego at during this?
	Because I could imagine that this would get you probably, you know, your head would also start to gain size.
	Was that happening for you?
	Or were you just, were you chill?
	I mean, what was your vibe?
	No, the ego was starting to get out of control.
	And this was, you know, I was, the injectable painkillers were just starting.
	And I was, I was at this time, I was on the tail end of living in California.
	I lived in Cali for nine months.
	And that's after the draft?
	This was after the draft.
	Before the season started?
	Yeah, because I held out until September 5th.
	Oh, that's right.
	You're talking about your contract in this.
	Because we were going to, because Tyson's people contacted, Tyson's people contacted my people.
	That sounds so fucking stupid.
	But that's how it works here.
	You have to have a lot of those people.
	We all get it.
	But, you know, the cool thing was I loved Letterman growing up.
	I watched him all the time.
	And then you get this invite.
	You're going, are you freaking kidding me?
	It's like almost as good as getting the invite to be on the show.
	Almost as good.
	Almost as good.
	And because I was like, Theo, who?
	And I was like, I got to check this guy out online before I answer this email.
	And I started watching.
	And I'm like, four hours later, I'm still watching all these different stuff.
	And I'm like, this guy's like legit.
	He's like authentic.
	He's no bullshit.
	He's funny and shit.
	We're trying.
	And he's sober.
	We're trying our best, man.
	You guys are doing it, man.
	I'm telling you.
	But yeah, I am really glad that you gave us the opportunity to be here with you.
	I appreciate it.
	I really am, man.
	So, yeah, because it's just, it's interesting, man.
	Like, for one, I'm surprised how easy it is for me to talk to somebody else that's in recovery.
	You know, like a lot, like a lot of people.
	It's interesting.
	It's like a non-tangible.
	It is kind of a respect, but it's like, I know you've been through the gutter and I know you fucking pulled yourself out of it.
	Yeah.
	And I know how you feel.
	It's funny.
	It's like, I know how you feel in places where I can't even describe it, kind of, you know?
	Right, right.
	And it's especially interesting because to have those feelings, but also to be such a big guy, like, when did that kind of come to a head for you?
	Because it's like some of those feelings, it's like, damn, I feel like such a bitch, you know?
	And no offense to bitches, you know?
	No.
	If someone hasn't been a bitch in their life at some point, they have lived in a cave.
	Sorry.
	If you haven't failed in life, okay.
	I mean, we get to fail on the front page.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	So, yeah, I mean, I brought it upon myself.
	I take accountability.
	Did you start to feel like so take me out on the road out of the NFL?
	Take me on some of that road.
	The first time out?
	Yeah.
	So four-year contract with the Packers was a four-year, $4.4 million contract.
	That was the first offensive lineman to get.
	You have one or your own?
	I got caught.
	Okay, cool.
	Thanks.
	So I was the first offensive lineman ever in the NFL to make a seven-figure average salary per year without ever playing a play.
	So, you know, that's going to kind of rub some people wrong, especially offensive linemen.
	But the smart offensive linemen were like, no, this is going to help us.
	Right.
	Because the next year, there was like 27, 28 guys that made over that were in the league already.
	And they deserved it.
	So I went in with the kind of attitude of this is a short-lived career.
	And it could be one play and you're done.
	Like you could blow your knee out, never come back from it.
	I mean, probably one of the greatest athletes ever, in my opinion, is Bo Jackson.
	And I think the amount of torque that that guy had and strength in his body is what kind of hurt his hip.
	Like, I believe that.
	Right.
	It's almost too much.
	Yeah, it's almost too much, right?
	Because the guy was like just, I mean, baseball, he was an all-star.
	And in football, he was an all-pro.
	Yeah.
	I mean, that's.
	He was unprecedented.
	Did you play around the same time as him or no?
	He was like three, four years older than me.
	Okay.
	Herschel was like in that, like, kind of like you could have that discussion with Herschel Walker, too.
	He's like ridiculously athletic.
	He still looks like he's like, yeah.
	And he's the real deal.
	He's a great guy.
	And like for me, my class, my draft class, like, you know, for the first five guys are in the Hall of Fame.
	Can you bring it up, Nick, please?
	You know, Deion, like Deion Sanders, I've never seen anything like that on the field.
	Yeah.
	That guy didn't run across.
	He glided across.
	He floated, did he?
	I mean, it was ridiculous what he did.
	And, you know, he was a pleasure to watch.
	Is it wild to see your name when you look at this, Tony?
	Not anymore.
	It's kind of like, you know, it's like, I, you know, listen to the lineup.
	Yeah, look at those guys.
	I mean, unfortunately, you know, Derek Thomas had that accident.
	Oh, that was heartbreaking.
	Yeah.
	God.
	But, you know, Burt Grossman from the Chargers, I had done his radio show from San Diego, like maybe a month ago.
	There's some, like Steve Otwater.
	Do you remember when Ottwater hit the guy from Kansas City?
	The Nightmare, The Nigerian Nightmare?
	I don't know if I remember.
	I remember when he hit a guy from San Francisco one time.
	Well, the guy that, what was his name?
	Oh, Christian Okoya.
	Yeah.
	And from that hit, that guy's career was never the same because he was running people over like a train.
	And when he hit that guy, it was one of, I mean, to this day, one of the best hits I've ever seen.
	And, you know, Atwater was taken, what, late in the first round, right?
	Watch this.
	And Christian Okoya was like 250, 260.
	Aquoy was unbelievable, man.
	And he knocked him backwards at full speed.
	Wow.
	I'll tell you what.
	I got a lot of respect for that.
	Those bunkers were fun to watch.
	I had a lot of respect for that.
	So take me out of the end of that.
	So you go into recovery and a recovery.
	Oh, no.
	Well, yeah.
	So I get pretty much not officially kicked out of the league, but kind of like Green Bay is like after the contract was over after four years, they're like, we're not going to resign you.
	We don't want your services.
	And they were professional about it.
	Right.
	And of course, at that time, I was like, well, I don't want to play for you guys.
	It's your fault anyways.
	My career screwed up.
	My life's good.
	It's not my fault.
	It's all about you.
	I'm playing Nick all the time.
	It was Nick's fault.
	Totally.
	I got that tattoo tomorrow.
	It was Nick's fault with an arrow on this leg.
	So, so it was, you know, it was, so that, you know, so I get that call in January and February, I get the call that my brother had passed.
	And then, so it was like, God, things can't get worse.
	It's like, oh man, don't ever say that.
	Because things just got worse.
	They got worse.
	And I knew that, I mean, I knew that my NFL career with the Packers was a definite bust because of my addiction problem and just my, you know, not being capable of doing what I could do before.
	I just wasn't capable.
	I don't think I could have worked at anywhere, 7-Eleven.
	And that's not dissing 7-Eleven or anything.
	It's just, I wasn't responsible enough to show up.
	And for three years after that, that I was out of the league, it just get darker and darker and darker and more and more and more painkillers.
	And where were you living at that time?
	I was in Michigan, Maple City, Michigan, which is right by Traverse City.
	Wow.
	I can imagine it gets pretty dark if you start just killing pain over in Michigan after a while.
	Yeah, Michigan's beautiful, though.
	Well, Michigan is a great place.
	I just imagine, like, in those long winters, in those places, you know what I'm saying?
	Like, I imagine that coming around.
	It was a long summer.
	It was a long spring.
	It was a long fall.
	Everything was like, why do these bad things keep happening to me?
	It couldn't be me, could it?
	And you were just on a lot of painkillers, huh?
	Yeah.
	And were you just like spending days in bed?
	Were you just like doing, I mean, were you partying?
	Were you having Like I was like, kind of like a loner drink.
	I was married and stuff, you know, and we had a daughter, our first daughter.
	And it was like isolated drinking, I guess.
	Drinking and drugging would be the isolated, I think would be the best way to describe it.
	I hated people.
	Yeah.
	You know, because just guys, they're going to interrupt my buzz.
	And I know I want my buzz perfect.
	And they're watching this white Bronco go down the 405.
	And I'm in Michigan.
	I'm going, can you believe this shit is happening?
	Am I being messed up?
	Or is this shit really happening?
	And, you know, it was, it was like a, it was like a, I mean, you're conscious, you know what's going on, but it's a blur.
	It's like a blur.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Being with being messed up, that kind of sounds a blur, especially it feels like with pain, with painkillers.
	I never got into painkillers, but the couple times I did, my friend got arrested and I just woke up in my car.
	Right.
	You know, and so just like people differently too.
	Right.
	Like for me, like, really a painkiller is a downer.
	It's a depressant, as is alcohol.
	But for me, when I would take a downer, like painkiller, like opiate, I would get high, like energy high.
	And I'd be like, let's go to the mall.
	Right.
	And walk around the food court and get something from every place.
	Such an offensive lineman pie.
	Not much has changed there.
	But it was weird.
	But then, you know, that darkness sets in.
	Yeah.
	It's not good.
	When the darkness gets that dark, you either get sober or you die from it.
	Yeah.
	Or a symptom from it, whether you take your own life, whether your liver goes, whether your heart goes, whether all the side effects.
	What do you think right now?
	I mean, you know, we had this guy, Morgan Wallen, on the podcast last week.
	He's a country musician, and we talked briefly about the side effects of all this lockdowning and the inability of, like, I'm going to meet with a new sponsor later today, actually, to go to start doing the step work again.
	And we're trying to find a place to meet, and it's like, we can't even meet anywhere.
	Like, we have to meet at one of our houses, which is fine.
	But if you're just getting into trying doing the steps or something, like if somebody's like, hey, come over to my house and you never even met them, like that can be, you know, some guys won't go do that.
	And it just makes me like all the meeting, you know, so many of the meeting rooms, even though some are still going on the DL, but like a lot of them being closed.
	And I just, I feel like we're going to lose more people from the fallout of addiction problems than we ever are from this silly disease or whatever, COVID.
	That's just from addiction.
	What about just mental illness, right?
	Like the suicides, I saw, you know, a report.
	I don't know what to believe anymore when I see, right?
	It's like so warped one way or the other.
	But numbers are numbers.
	Facts are facts.
	And like there's a fourfold numbers are up in this one state of teenage suicides from last year to this year.
	And it's like, well, what's the only difference?
	The lockdown, right?
	And nobody in school.
	And it's like kids that were on the fence with maybe depression or with, you know, kind of trying to figure out still who they are.
	It only took me like 40 years, but I'm still trying to figure it out.
	We're slow learning.
	As long as we're learning, right?
	As long as we're trying to learn.
	So, you know, a lot of those people went on the fence the other way and just took themselves out because they felt it was, you know, easier.
	Yeah.
	And it is easier.
	It's the easy way out.
	It's, you know, and it's, that's, you know, no disrespect to, you know, people that are related that has had somebody do that to themselves because it's, it's, it's got to be a horrible feeling.
	I mean, I've had friends that have done it and I, and I just like, my heart just bleeds for them.
	Um, because it's like, I mean, how bad does it have to get to do that?
	And it's, you know, it's like, well, it did get that bad.
	You know, for me, it got that bad.
	Yeah.
	And I've had some moments over the years where you're like, yeah, you just isolate enough where you feel like nobody cares, even though they do.
	So yeah, the worst conversation to have is with yourself in your head.
	It's like, it's like, it's a bad conversation.
	It's a bad conversation.
	It's like, I got to run it by a lot of people.
	Yeah.
	You know, and not, there's like three or four people that I like trust my life with.
	And I'll just be like, what do you think of this?
	Am I out of line here?
	Is my ego getting into this?
	Or am I being selfish with this?
	Or is this an opportunity I should take advantage of?
	And, you know, because a lot of times my perspective is different.
	I grew up, like, I think your environment, the way you grow up, affects your perspective on life and your life's experiences.
	That's like easy.
	That's obvious.
	So that's why I need other people's perspectives.
	If people were to raise their kids today, say the way I was raised, they'd be in jail for child abuse.
	Right.
	Or like, you know, you got slapped or whatever.
	I only had to get hit, well, slapped in my face twice.
	Before you pancake block someone?
	No, it was once I was like.
	Oh, before you got together?
	Before I was like, after the second time, I was like, crystal clear, I understand.
	If you say don't do this, I won't.
	That's the rule, yeah.
	And I was like, you know, six, seven years old.
	And it was like, and you know what?
	I'm glad that it was that way for me because I don't want to be babied.
	Right.
	I don't want to be, you know, I don't want to do pillow fights.
	It's funny because you say baby.
	And sometimes I feel like, honestly, what I feel like sometimes is a baby.
	I'm like, I'm like, I'm a baby that never got certain things when I was a baby, probably.
	So fucking sometimes I still act like a baby.
	But then I'm the only person there.
	It's like I'm the baby and I'm the person fucking reaching and that has to reach into the crib to fucking help itself, you know?
	So thankfully, over time, I start to realize that I need to be more, at least I know I'm capable after a few minutes of being the baby or getting a perspective.
	You're allowed to do that.
	And I can't help it.
	A lot of times I can't help it.
	So when did, so we kind of gone through like a little bit of like your journey.
	So tell me, like, like, when did you start to get like a new perspective kind of?
	March 23rd in 95. I walked into that treatment center and I remember thinking to myself, like, I can picture that, that stainless steel door, like industrial door, and thinking to myself, the fun's over.
	But I was like, I'd rather be boring and sober than miserable and drunk or an alcoholic life.
	And 11 days later, I stayed in that treatment center 17 days.
	Day 11, I started laughing again.
	And my gut hurt from laughing that day.
	Wow.
	And I was like, I forgot about that.
	You noticed it.
	I forgot about that feeling.
	Isn't that powerful?
	And I was like, I don't know what's happening, but I'm digging my claws into it.
	And I've been laughing ever since.
	Damn.
	Even on the tragic days, there's been some kind of laughter, even if it's been internal, like amusement in my own head.
	Like, it's, you know, like we make fun of our, poke fun of ourselves.
	Oh, yeah.
	I don't have to sit and laugh out loud to be, you know, put things in perspective.
	But, you know, even on days where my mom died three years or three and a half years ago, it was like a hard day for me.
	And, and, and, and really, it was like the harder year after was harder for me than that week that, you know, that she had died and stuff.
	But you almost have stuff to do that week.
	Yeah, I kick into like, you know, I got to get things done.
	There's responsibilities.
	I've got to, you know, make sure things are right.
	And then once you said, you know, that passes and then you sink in and then you're not buying that ticket to go see mom in November, like to see her for Christmas, because you're like, mom ain't there.
	You're gone.
	That's when you're like, fuck.
	That's heavy.
	So you, so you went in there, you started to get better.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Like day 11, started laughing again.
	And then yeah, those little things, man, you notice I, I remember having a thought that made me laugh.
	I remember just driving one time, and I've struggled in and out over my five years in recovery, but I've never given up on the program or trying to, you know, I haven't given up on that path yet in my life.
	And I'm trying it anew now, you know, trying it again.
	But I remember, yeah, a time when I just was driving down the road and I laughed just by myself.
	And I was like, fuck, I haven't done that in months.
	Just the little things that were like that just came or just like I remember I woke up in the middle of the night one night and I didn't have a thought in my head and it was like, Jesus Christ, this is so nice.
	The noise is not there.
	Yeah, just like.
	Especially for someone like you.
	Yeah, well, it's like somebody started, it's like somebody left something plugged in that's rattling like 40 years ago.
	And it's rattling all the time.
	And I can't find it.
	Put a twist tie around that thing.
	Something.
	It's that noise.
	So you had a second opportunity with the NFL?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Which I was very lucky to get because I burned all my bridges.
	I was thorough.
	I burned them all.
	I was like, I'm not going to burn one or two.
	I'm going to fry them all because it's all their fault.
	It couldn't be my fault.
	And so, you know, there was a huge paradigm shift once I left sobriety.
	It literally almost went to what's for it went from what's in it for me to what can I pack into life?
	What can I pack into?
	How can I make things right that I wronged?
	And then after I make some of those things right, because some of me can't, then how am I going to live?
	And am I going to be adding on a daily basis to life and participating?
	Or am I going to be sucking and conning people, like sucking out of life and conning stuff out of people?
	And, you know, because then it's like, it's like that, you know, I'm sure you've heard that analogy of the drunk horse thief that you get sober.
	You get a, you know, if you get a drunk horse thief that steals horses and you sober them up, what do you have?
	You have a sober horse thief.
	He still steals.
	He's got to change.
	He's got to change.
	And so I knew that, okay, the chemical part was changed, but now I had to change.
	And that paradigm shift happened kind of naturally just from the removal of chemical of what's in it for me to, holy shit, like I did some fucked up stuff and I wronged some people.
	Right.
	And so I, you know, made those amends over, you know, most of those amends were done over the first two years.
	And then one of the bigger ones with my dad wasn't done until the four-year mark, but it was done and it was, it was, you know, necessary.
	What was that like?
	Well, you know what?
	It was this, it was the one that obviously scared me the most.
	It was had the most fear.
	And I was in Indianapolis.
	He was in Canada.
	And I was four years sober and a guy walked in to a regular meeting.
	I went to a 12 and 12 meeting.
	And he was like almost 20 years sober and a regular guy that I knew.
	And he had said that his dad had passed away that day.
	And then he talked about how he never made amends to his dad.
	And I was like, holy shit.
	I was like, Louisville Slugger, come out again.
	Damn.
	Out that next day.
	I was on the phone with my dad.
	I was like, we do it for Christmas.
	I'd like to come up and see you.
	And he was like, yeah.
	So I went up.
	That was towards the end of the season.
	So when the season was over, I drove up to Canada and made amends to him.
	And it was, it was, it's, you know, it's like, I was lucky to be surrounded by good sobriety guys that were very good in sobriety and that were, and I chose a sponsor that would not baby me.
	I don't want to be babied.
	And he said, when you make amends, you look at the person in the eye and you tell him you were wrong for the way you acted or what you said or what you did.
	You don't say, I'm sorry, because, you know, how many times have we said, I'm sorry for this when we're all messed up, right?
	I'm sorry.
	We're always apologizing, right?
	It's like, no.
	He literally said, I was wrong for acting that way while I was drinking or drugging or whatever.
	And, you know, I'm here to, you know, acknowledge it.
	And even if they played a part in it, it's not about that.
	You're there to make your part right.
	And it's crazy how people don't realize that that is the real key to a lot of it, you know, is setting yourself free, even though it feels like you're letting them off the hook.
	Well, you're getting your own.
	Here's the thing.
	There's a huge caveat in there that is huge that I know I've seen people do this and it's like, I just want to like punch them in the face.
	And it's like they make the amends for them, you know, they do it, make the amends at the expense of that other person.
	It's going to hurt that other person more rehashing that up or whatever the situation is.
	It's there are some things better just left alone.
	Yeah.
	And just let your life, the way you live, be the example.
	And if that person ever approaches you, or if you just get in a situation where it feels right to be like, hey, man, you know, about, you know, about the past or whatever.
	But there were ones, most of my amends were literally like, or I planned them and I, you know, talked to the person or communicated and said, hey, you know, I'd like to meet up, just talk to you about some stuff.
	And so they were, you know, mostly like that.
	But to look your dad in the eye and say I was wrong for all these, it was.
	Wow, it'd be powerful.
	It was powerful.
	Had you been like ashamed of your dad or something?
	Or you've been like, or scared to death.
	Were you?
	There I was fucking 6'6, 325, you know, strong as shit.
	Second time in the NFL.
	And that should put a lot of things in perspective for people that don't understand addiction, that how emotions can run your life and how fear can run your life.
	And how just because you're big and strong doesn't mean you're not scared.
	Yeah.
	You know, people have assumptions that I mean, I've, it's been, it's just, I've, there's just been some humorous things I'm sure as you have had in your life where people have this assumption of what a comedian, how they live, what they drive, what this, you know, they live in this $10 million house.
	It's like, it's like, you know, it's, it's, it's interesting to me to observe that as life has gone on.
	But I forgot what the fuck we were talking about.
	The amount.
	Yeah, look, I've had concussions.
	Yeah.
	Fuck, I don't know.
	I'm not that smart.
	I never was concussed.
	I work with a guy who's fucking got enough concussions for all of us.
	Not me.
	Not him.
	Yeah.
	But yeah, it's well, the thing about putting things in perspective that, look, my fear is the same fear that soccer mom fear has.
	Right?
	It's like, just because, you know, some people will say to me, you know, like when I played, and even sometimes now or they might say it if it just comes up in conversation about, you know, well, I mean, I know you wouldn't be, you know, that wouldn't mess with you because, I mean, you know, you could, you could handle a situation like that.
	And I'm thinking of myself.
	And I would literally will be transparent.
	I'll be like, how do you know?
	Yeah.
	And they're still not getting it.
	And I'm like, and then I would just share a story with them that is almost, the semantics are different and the story is identical.
	The situations are different, but it's identical.
	And it's like, and I was scared to death, the story I shared with you about my dad.
	It's like, I'm sure there was people going, what do you mean you were scared of your dad?
	Your dad will always be your dad.
	Yeah.
	No matter what.
	And your mom will always be your mom.
	And, you know, it's like your bigger brother will always be your bigger brother or younger brother or younger sister, whatever.
	It's like, it's kind of like we get these certain roles and it's like, you know, dad will always be alpha.
	I don't care if I'm 10 times stronger than him, he'll always be the alpha of the family.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I think there's probably some like code that's within some of our non-national law.
	Yeah.
	We got a question right here that came in from somebody that has an iPhone.
	And I actually had one too.
	How often when people hear your name do they mix your story up with Todd Marenovich?
	Does that ever happen?
	You know, hardly ever.
	Because, yeah, he was just the process.
	Yeah, yeah.
	He's a little bit younger than me, but I'll tell you what I do get a lot of is when people will hear my name and they'll be like, they'll be like, are you the...
	And they'd be like, okay.
	But that makes sense.
	Carry on?
	That's your name?
	Am I supposed to fake it?
	That's true.
	I thought maybe you were the guy that died that fought Rocky for a second.
	But then, you know, I've made some, I don't know a lot.
	Here's a young fellow that has a question right here.
	He's probably trying to buy some wind straw, I bet.
	A little bloated.
	What up, Theo?
	What up, Tony?
	A big fan from the University of Alabama, representing from Tuscaloosa.
	On a side note, Theo, we're going to beat LSU's ass this weekend.
	You probably will.
	My question for Tony is, as a former offensive lineman myself, what was the best game as far as knockdowns or pancakes, whatever you want to call them, that you ever had?
	And how many did you have?
	Gang, gang.
	Gang, bro.
	What do you think there, Tony?
	Is there a game that stands out, really?
	Yeah, there's one because I wanted to go out and torture the person or the team or the school that I didn't like.
	And it was that other school in Michigan.
	I don't know what their name is, but there's only one school in Michigan.
	Michigan State, right?
	No, that's no disrespect to U of M. I mean, they're a great institution, but obviously huge interstate rivalry.
	And at that time, they were like constantly winning, going the Rose Bowl, Beauchamp Beckler, iconic.
	I mean, so much respect for that guy.
	But, you know, I probably had games where I had more pancakes or off OTFs.
	We used to call them off the film, where you drive a guy so far off the, like, that you don't even see him on the film when you film the next day.
	So I had, like, probably like some games or more, but there was a certain Michigan game that we had where I maybe had 13 or 14 pancakes.
	Wow.
	But because it was Michigan, it was sweeter.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	And yeah, it's like I, it was interesting.
	Like when I look back, and I don't think I'm sadistic, but I didn't play to make friends and I didn't play to help you up if you were my opponent.
	I didn't play dirty.
	There'll be people that say, well, you cheated.
	Okay.
	And that's legit.
	But I didn't, you know, after Michigan State, you know, it's like I didn't take any steroids.
	But yeah, at school, I mean, yeah, did I take steroids?
	Was it, yeah, did I cheat?
	Yeah, I did.
	I was wrong for doing it.
	And I don't recommend that anybody does it.
	But that drive for like, you know.
	Yeah, your etiquette and stuff.
	I mean, what's in your blood and what's in your heart and what's in your behavior can be different things.
	Yeah.
	And you don't, you know, there's people that, especially guys that I'm talking, that are like, well, yeah, but he took steroids.
	And it's like, okay, well, yeah, why didn't you play in the NFL?
	Right.
	Why didn't you become all-American?
	Why didn't you do all these things if all you had to do was take steroids?
	Yeah.
	Right?
	It's like, it's like, you don't just take steroids, sit around and get jacked.
	Yeah.
	Everybody, every guy would be jacked and have abs.
	Right.
	You have to put in the work with it.
	Right.
	Right.
	And my work was relentless because of walking home from snowstorms.
	Yeah.
	Because of the head coach I had, because the guy who recruited me, Nick Sabin, they were all relentless about work ethic.
	And the way I grew up, parents were immigrants.
	They like literally escaped, put their lives on the line out of a communist country in the 50s.
	Wow.
	So I'm like thinking to myself, I'm laying there on the field at camp, sober in Indianapolis, my second year there, and it's hot as shit in July, humid, and like just beating up with sweat during stretch, right?
	You still got two hour practice to go and kind of feeling sorry for myself and like, you know, and then I start thinking about a story my mom told me or something where her mom pulls her out of third grade back in the old country in Europe.
	And it was Croatia, but it was at that time Yugoslavia.
	Pulled her out of third grade class and said, The guy that was taking care of our sheep in the mountains has bailed on us.
	So here's a wooden staff.
	I need you to go take care of the sheep and keep the wolves off of them.
	Damn, that's social studies.
	Right.
	So go, so when I, I would start thinking of those stories and I'd be like, you whiny ass.
	I know.
	You feeling sorry and you're getting paid seven figures and you're bitching about it.
	Of course, this was all internalized, you know, my self-discussion in my head.
	And it helps put things in perspective.
	And it's not tricking yourself.
	It's legit perspective.
	Right.
	Like that happened in 55. That wasn't that long ago.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	We've got, I mean, it's even, I think about it during this pandemic, it's like we're all kind of stuck, but then we're all stuck with our machines and our, you know, trimming our manscaping our penises or whatever everybody's doing to us.
	I was doing that way before the pandemic.
	I was ahead of the game.
	I was ahead of the game.
	You might have been ahead of the game there.
	But you know what?
	The pandemic for me personally has been awesome.
	Yeah.
	Because like I've started to realize I really like psychology and like the study of just observation of people and how they act and human behavior and including my own.
	And it was a fantastic year to do that.
	Yeah.
	Like with the toilet paper phenomenon.
	Yeah.
	Plus, there was a ton of things I had on the back burner that I was going to eventually get to, like when I had a lull in photography or I had a lull in something with work.
	I would get to this.
	And so now there was a lull.
	Right.
	So now I was like, okay, well, hey, I can do these projects I had on the back burner because I did, because it was possible.
	Yeah.
	So now I got those projects going.
	And so, you know, for me, personally, it's been a great year.
	And not as much great monetarily as it's been learning.
	It's been freaking phenomenal.
	It's a good attitude, man.
	Yeah, we talk about perspectives and stuff in here a lot and not battle it every week and every day.
	A lot of what you're doing now is photography, right?
	Yes.
	Did I answer that guy's question?
	That man said he said your best game, yeah, Michigan.
	Oh, yeah.
	So it was Michigan, yeah.
	And what was Sabin like at that time?
	You know, he was.
	Do you remember him fondly or no?
	Yeah, yeah.
	I mean, I babysat his kids.
	Oh, damn.
	Yeah.
	I would say.
	Nick was, oh, yeah.
	I'd behave.
	And I'd be alarmed.
	If you freaking bottle-fed me, dude, I would be alarmed.
	Nick was awesome.
	Nick is the same guy.
	I mean, he's a different guy today, but he was pretty much the core of him was exactly what he is, what you see now.
	He was about fundamentals, discipline, keeping things simple, removing distractions, and do your job.
	You should go talk with Jocko Willink.
	He'd be great on Jocko's podcast, huh?
	What to put you guys together, man?
	I'm a huge fan of his.
	Yeah, he's good.
	He's legit.
	I got his books and stuff.
	Yeah, he's definitely, when I think about giving up, which is a couple times a day, usually at least one of those times, I won't.
	And it's because of him.
	Yeah.
	You and me both.
	Yeah, Saban's unbelievable.
	It's just, it's unprecedented almost what he's done.
	He was a DB coach when he recruited me, and Ohio was his area.
	So you weren't even on his, on his docket.
	No, he was there looking at another guy who was one of the stars on our team.
	And then he said to our head coach at the high school, who he knew, he's like, who's that guy?
	And he told him and everything.
	He goes, well, we want to talk to him.
	And they watched film and stuff.
	And then they offered me a scholarship.
	And I remember sitting with Nick.
	And Nick was the same.
	I mean, he's the same.
	He's a phenomenal human being.
	The guy is like a first-class human being.
	And Terry, his wife, Terry.
	They're great people.
	And I was so lucky to be surrounded by some of these people.
	And even all the mistakes I made, I was so lucky to be surrounded.
	Amazing.
	And then to watch Nick go from this DB coach to possibly being one of the greatest ever college football coaches.
	And then when he went to Alabama, it was like, oh, you're not going to knock Bear Bryant to the side.
	Come on now.
	Bear's like a cover.
	Now it's like, no, that could be argued.
	That could be argued because he did it at LSU.
	He won.
	Yeah.
	You know, there's a lot of Michigan State people that hate him because he left Michigan State.
	He was a head coach at Michigan State when he left for LSU.
	But it's like, look, man, it's a business.
	It's funny how your dreams, sometimes when they interact with business, how they don't, you wish they would go a certain way or be a certain way, but then sometimes the gifts, you still get your dreams.
	It's just not exactly how you would expect.
	Looking back, do you feel like you did the best that you could have playing football?
	Do you feel like what you did was what you were going to do?
	That was it?
	Yeah, I held nothing back.
	I held nothing back at Michigan State.
	It's almost like oxymoron to say I held nothing back at Green Bay.
	I held nothing back drinking and drugging in Green Bay.
	But I just wasn't capable of giving them everything that, you know, that they had saw on film.
	But then when I got sober, I got the chance to go to Indy and I was like, I literally treated every day like literally like life and death.
	It's like, if I don't do this today, I will die.
	And there was times where...
	The work.
	Right.
	And not just the time, but the work.
	The work.
	During the time.
	Because you can put in a bunch of time and spin your wheels, or you can put in the time and keep moving forward, even if it's at small increments, because it adds a lot of time.
	Yeah.
	Do you still speak on recovery and stuff these days?
	I speak on recovery, adversity, and just a lot on thinking, you know, like kind of like there's a talk I give When I speak, do public speaks, which kind of slowed down after the pandemic, about, and the talk is titled, Why Not Me?
	Yeah.
	And then it's got like it's three or four description for the people that book people to speak on what I talk about.
	And, you know, I've always asked myself, why not me be the one to go from Canada?
	And I was like 11 years old when I made that decision.
	Like, I want to play in the NFL.
	Yeah, living the dream.
	You really got to live out your dreams.
	And I was like, why not me?
	Right.
	Like, why?
	Like, seriously, why not?
	Somebody's going to win the powerball, right?
	So why not me?
	Well, okay, we got to take some action.
	You got to buy a ticket.
	Right.
	So at least you got to have skin in the game.
	Right.
	If you don't buy a ticket, you're not serious.
	Right.
	Right.
	At least you're trying.
	Right.
	You're going to see your sponsor.
	You're moving.
	You know one thing.
	You're moving forward.
	Whether that's the right sponsor or not, you're looking and seeking for making yourself better.
	Yeah.
	So that has to be acknowledged.
	It has to be acknowledged.
	Well, I think those are the things that build up little bits of esteem inside of yourself.
	You're like, oh, okay, I'm making this choice.
	This is what I'm going to do.
	Whether it goes well or not, then you already win a little bit because you're like, I'm making this effort.
	That's such the hard part sometimes is just sharing or raising your hand.
	Yeah, I struggle with it too.
	Yeah.
	It's hard.
	It's crazy sometimes.
	I'll be in a meeting and everything in my brain will be like, just share, just tell what's going on.
	And I won't, you know?
	I think when you do, like, I think, I'm going to be honest with you.
	I've watched a lot of your stuff in the last couple weeks.
	I'm like, fuck, you know, like, this guy has described a lot of my life.
	Like, so you, like, it's like, there's so many common things, but the state I like the least in the whole union is Louisiana.
	Yeah.
	I just, it's just one of those states that I've gone there like three or four times to play the Saints, and it's always been smoggy and smelly.
	Yeah.
	So like, that's my impression of Louisiana.
	There's so much tradition there and like stuff and like culture and stuff that I, you know, like I know about, but I really don't know about.
	Right.
	And it's like, it's, it's, it's not a disrespect to the beat.
	It's just kind of like, well, every time I've gone there, it's kind of been dirty and smelly.
	Yeah, sometimes you get those experiences in places.
	So it's like, you know, but I'm sure there's people like, you know, you live in the desert in Arizona.
	It's like, you know.
	Yeah, they got a lot of serpents out there.
	Yeah, and scorpions and people that have dirty.
	Team school days and money.
	Oh, they stick out like a salt.
	Oh, my God.
	They're red flags walking around.
	All they need is a sickle and a hammer.
	Yeah, connection is so key, man.
	It's crazy how connection breaks down the different things that we really crazy apart.
	Yeah.
	The other day, you had said something.
	When you do your solo podcast, you do like a lot of talking about what's going on and stuff, and you talked about you had said something.
	I was like, I can fucking relate to that shit there.
	I pulled into a donut shop and I started crying.
	Oh, wow.
	Didn't get out of my vehicle.
	That was me.
	You go, wasn't touching myself.
	Yeah, no, no.
	When I was listening to you, I was watching it on the YouTube.
	You're like, wait a second.
	But, you know, and then you kind of just win.
	Right.
	Right.
	And I'm like, yeah, I know that feeling.
	And it's like, you know, you think, like, like you shared it.
	It's real.
	It's transparent.
	Yeah.
	But you don't know how that affects other people.
	Right.
	Because I was like, ooh, fuck, I know that feeling.
	It may not have been a donut shop.
	It might have been a Denny's that I pulled into, or it just might have been an empty parking lot that I pulled into and started feeling sorry for myself.
	If that was the case for me or whatever the case was.
	And then, you know, I love the fact that you can laugh at yourself because you crack a joke while you're doing it and you do it without laughing and you say, well, I was cracking, but I wasn't touching myself.
	And I'm glad I wasn't.
	Because when people walk about, you're arrested for that.
	Well, yeah, now you would.
	You get a long drone with cream in it.
	Dude, that's the original Tim Hortons right there, dude.
	It's some guy masturbating.
	That's crazy, man.
	Yeah, I was just having a day, man.
	I just had a weird morning.
	It was just kind of lonesome.
	And I went there.
	And then my brother's talking to me.
	And my brother's been doing this thing recently.
	Like when we're on the phone, if I'm talking about how I'm feeling or just something that's going on, like he'll be like, oh, if you need me to stay on the phone with you after we're done talking, I'll just sit here with you, you know, and I won't say anything.
	And you don't have to say anything.
	And he's like, I'll just sit here with you.
	That's pretty cool.
	And man, it just like it was crazy because I just never had anybody say, hey, you know, no matter what you're feeling or thinking right now, it's okay.
	I'm just going to be here with you.
	And you don't have to say anything.
	And I don't have to say anything.
	And I, and I'm just here for you.
	And man, it just powerful.
	Oh, it just like, it just, it, it gets uncontrollable where I'm just like, man, that's powerful.
	You know, uh, that's real shit.
	It's not, it's like, that's authentic, real stuff.
	And you find out who the real, who, who's in your, who's loyal to you.
	Yeah.
	Like, and there's, there's different levels, I guess, of loyalty, different degrees of loyalty.
	But like when it comes to life and death, I'm talking.
	Yeah.
	That's the only loyalty I want.
	I'm talking about is like, I'll be in your corner, even if you're wrong.
	Yeah.
	Like that's the kind of loyalty I'm looking for.
	And I have less than in my at 54 years old, I have less than that on, you know, on one hand, like less than five people, less than four people.
	Well, and it's, it's interesting because one of the remarkable things about it for me sometimes is that I think some of my reality and a little bit of the pain that comes with it is that I don't know if I'm ever that for anyone.
	And so some of my realization I just shared with you about the donut thing.
	And it wasn't, it was a funny thing.
	Oh, that's interesting.
	And I'm sure people were like, well, that was like out of left field.
	But here I am at 20, almost 26 years sober going, like it made me stop.
	It stopped me in my tracks.
	Yeah.
	Because I was doing shit around where I live.
	I was doing something, right?
	And I had your podcast on and I was listening to it.
	And I was like, oh, fuck.
	I was like lump in my throat.
	I was like, I know exactly what that feels like.
	Yeah.
	So you never know what we say.
	And we may think it's something like minutiae that isn't important, but it'll affect people.
	And it may help somebody that's on the fence say, you know what?
	If that jackass Tony can do it, I can do it.
	Like I can get sober.
	I can at least try.
	And you know what?
	There's a lot of paths to sobriety.
	The 12 steps aren't the only way.
	It was the way that worked for me.
	Yeah.
	And I don't question it.
	And I back it up.
	And I'll help any.
	I'll help somebody if they think, you know, if they think having a crystal in front of them or something, as long as it's not crystal meth, a Sedona crystal.
	If they think that's going to get them sober, okay, so be it.
	It's like, all right, look, if you're trying to improve your life and if you don't drink, and it's like, well, you can't be, you know, dropping acid around a crystal trying not to drink.
	Well, that's kind of, you know, you're.
	Yeah, you've got to give something into the program.
	That's the thing about it.
	You know, it's like you just, you have to give, you have to give up something.
	That's the only reason there is any value to it to you.
	And especially when you're somebody who has always taken just for yourself, to have to give something up, that's a really hard thing to do.
	It is.
	To really give it up and say you can't, you're not going to do it.
	So then I want something in return.
	So that activates a part of me that's going to really seek out to probably get better because I'll be damned if I'm going to give something and not get something.
	Because that's the way that I felt growing up.
	Like if somebody cared about me, that they, it was a give and get situation.
	Like it was all transactional.
	Right.
	You know, even if it really wasn't, it may have been.
	Right, right, right.
	But that's how it registered inside of me.
	You know, and the cash register inside of my heart or whatever, that's how it registered.
	It was a transaction.
	And that's not quite like that feeling when you freely give selflessly and expect nothing in return.
	Now, if something does come back in return, so be it.
	But if you don't expect anything, you're good.
	Yeah.
	It's like there was times that there were times, and I noticed this after it happened.
	And this would be years, you know, more than five years ago.
	I would, on Thanksgiving sometimes, or if it was Christmas or whatever, I would just show up at the Phoenix Salvation Army downtown.
	And I'd be like, I've got four hours.
	What do you need me to do?
	Like, I can put meals on the table for the people.
	I can wash dishes.
	I can bust tables.
	I can do whatever.
	Take garbages out.
	Do spinal adjustments.
	Whatever.
	You probably could.
	We need you to crack people's backs over here by the stuff.
	Pancake this guy.
	You know, it's like, so you show up and you do that, right?
	And it's the humanly right, it's a good thing to do if you have, if, you know, if that's something that motivates you.
	So when I've done that before, and then I've shared it on social media, like maybe a picture and not bragging, just shared like, you know, I was lucky to be able to do this today.
	Then I've done that and not shared it on social media and just shared it with some friends.
	And then I've done that and not shared it with anybody.
	And it's funny because when I don't share that with anybody and I just go do it, I get the most out of it.
	Wow.
	It's kind of like that when doing the right thing and doing the stuff when people aren't watching, it's like you still do the right thing.
	So it's like, as much as I want to say, well, it's my ego that wants other people to know, look at the good stuff I'm doing.
	Right.
	Even if I just tell my close circle, still part of it the way I don't think that, and you know, people that do that, there's nothing wrong with that.
	No.
	But I kind of looked at all three of those situations and I found that I got the most out of it because I knew, you know, I believe in God, so I knew God knew.
	Right.
	I knew and I was just trying to be of service to God's kids.
	Yeah.
	And those people, the only difference between those people and me when I was drinking was time.
	Because it was only a matter of time before I was going to be at that table with them.
	If I was lucky to be at that table with them, if I wasn't dead.
	Yeah, man, it's interesting to hear that, especially in a day where we live in such a place where we want to share things and how we do it and how our communication is, you know, our mouths are our phones now.
	It's like that's interesting, man, but it's a nice reminder.
	You know, it's a nice reminder of, especially going into the holiday season, man.
	I got to get some photos taken.
	Can you take me to Tony's pictures real quick, please, Nick?
	Nick forgot his charger at home.
	That's okay.
	Nick's running on the bottom.
	We're going to finish up quick.
	7%.
	That's how Nick always is.
	I got one right behind me.
	Nick's always on about a 7%, man.
	But the other 93%, he definitely spent it getting his job done.
	It's not because he just showed up.
	He spent it.
	He spent it wisely.
	Wow, this is awesome, man.
	So you got into this photography.
	Take me through that, man.
	You know, the big catalyst was the SI cover.
	That's the big catalyst, right?
	You're right.
	I'm catalyzing.
	You're in ketosis right now.
	This is interesting.
	Yeah, it's like a lot of it's compositing.
	So I'll take, we'll have a plan.
	We'll take the picture of the person in the studio.
	And then whatever the plan is, we'll, you know, I'll add the composite.
	Usually I try to make any composite I do, I try to make the picture, like the background picture, the picture I took, whether it was of shiprock or whatever.
	Oh, I see what you're saying.
	So you'll take an actual photo of a person and then put it on another photo of a that I took of a scene.
	Right, right.
	Interesting.
	This one, like that one.
	This is cool.
	Like how many, that thing got a ton of likes.
	I believe this is the one that got a ton of likes.
	But here's the funny thing.
	That was 120 weeks ago.
	Okay, so 79,000 views.
	Okay.
	I got home and I saw this clouds like that.
	Like they weren't moving.
	That's time lapse, right?
	There was a shot taken every, say, three or four seconds, five seconds.
	And I took my camera and I literally, all I did was I put it on top of my Jeep.
	No tripod.
	No, I just put on top of my Jeep, kind of tried to make it as level as possible, set the timer to record.
	And I had set, and my camera was like a decent camera.
	It's like $5,000 or $6,000.
	So I was like, well, I got to hang out.
	just like walk away from the Jeep.
	I'm not in the middle of a desert where you can walk away from the Jeep.
	And that thing ended up getting a ton of views.
	And it's like one of the most simple and unexpected photos.
	And like that, you can see the before and after there of the gentleman with the white tank on.
	When you see the final shot, that's like the behind the scenes shot.
	And then you see the final shot.
	Oh, it's interesting.
	And it's like a lot of people will say, well, God, I never thought it would look like that.
	And a lot of times the person can't picture what I'm picturing because I have an idea.
	And we try to get on the same page with a lot of stuff.
	Like that one of the Milky Way there, that video.
	That was up.
	Oh, I was looking at the other one.
	Oh, yeah, yeah.
	You were looking at the Milky Way.
	I was looking at Heranus.
	Right?
	Sorry.
	And that's out of line, and I'm sorry, too.
	No, it ain't.
	Yeah, you're right.
	That's a planet, isn't it?
	Well, yeah.
	That's what you're talking about, wasn't it?
	So, you know, they see the Milky Way coming out.
	Wow.
	So that was at Goblin Valley.
	And what is that, lasers right there?
	What is that?
	Those are, actually, those are some of them are shooting stars, but most of them are planes.
	Wow.
	Most of them are planes.
	You can tell the difference between a shooting star and a plane by certain things.
	Those are planes right there.
	That's dope, dude.
	Isn't that cool?
	Yeah, that's crazy.
	That's in the middle of freaking nowhere.
	That's really, really cool.
	And I love it.
	Dude, I'll let us do some pictures sometime when I get out of here.
	That'd be super cool to get something neat.
	I think...
	Yeah, and just something that really like, especially, you know, it would be cool to do something with my boy.
	Oh, that's a puppy you have?
	Well, yeah, he's a Newfoundland, a brown Newfoundland.
	He's a really good dog.
	He's the best.
	So he's from what?
	He's from another country?
	Well, he's from the province of Newfoundland, which is east coast of Canada.
	Yeah, I think I met someone there off the internet once.
	Halifax.
	Yeah, Halifax is.
	Yeah.
	They out there.
	It's nice over there, aren't they?
	Yeah, it's cold off the ocean.
	Yeah, it seems really like you just marry whoever you meet first kind of thing.
	Just make sure they're in your family.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Well, it's a different, you know, Tom said, I think we'll see more of that coming up in the future.
	We're going to see a surge of numbers.
	Well, I think people are tired of just meeting people outside of their families, honestly.
	I really do.
	I think people are like, oh, this isn't working out.
	A lot of avenues of humanity aren't really working out that well.
	It's kind of like a big shakeout just happened, a riffraff.
	Yeah.
	It's crazy.
	Yeah.
	But man, I'm glad to be a part of your tribe, Tony.
	And I'm so thankful that you came in.
	I'm grateful I got asked to be on.
	And I feel I can call you a friend.
	Yeah, you can, man.
	It was, it was, I mean, watching a lot of your stuff.
	I watched a lot of your stuff.
	Not because, not like I started watching some of it just to make sure you were legit.
	Uh-huh.
	Right.
	Because, I mean, I just don't watch much of that, like, certain genre stuff, right?
	And when I started watching, I couldn't stop watching.
	And I started losing track of time.
	And then when I started losing track of time when I'm doing something, I know I'm doing something good.
	Like, I know I'm doing something that I'm into.
	So it's like, it always kept me interested in what like you were and the diversity of people that you'll have on or talk to.
	And then when you do the solo ones, when you just start reflecting about stuff, you say funny, like funny stuff.
	Obviously, I find hilarious because I can relate to so much of it.
	It's like my movie is dumb and dumber, right?
	It's like I can relate to it because that's, I'm freaking Lloyd, right?
	But it's like, it's like, I catch myself, I probably banked 20 hours of whether YouTube or pod.
	So I'm like, no, like this, I can relate to this guy.
	This guy adds, like this show adds to my life.
	Even the stupidity part of it adds to my life because I can relate.
	But there's so many things that go deep that, you know, like will stop me in my tracks.
	And it's hard to stop me in my tracks.
	That's probably.
	Because I walk with purpose that I got shit to do.
	I ain't got time to stop and just waste time because time is limited for me.
	It's interesting how as we get older, it starts to get a little bit limited.
	If somebody ever said, do you want to try to stop Tony Mendritz in his tracks?
	I would have said, no way, please.
	I'm going to send Vic in to do this job.
	Man, no, it's a pleasure, man.
	It's a pleasure to talk to somebody.
	You know, I think I needed to be around somebody today that's in the program.
	And just, you know, I don't think you know just how much I needed that in my own life today.
	So I think even you being here is kind of like a service call in ways that you probably can't even know, you know?
	Right, right.
	And that is reciprocal, right?
	That works both ways.
	Yeah.
	And it's cool, man.
	And yeah, I'm here for you.
	And we'd love to have you back sometime.
	And just thank you, bro.
	Thanks for coming in today, man.
	It's an honor.
	I'm grateful.
	I'm honored to be on the show.
	Yeah, it's cool, man.
	You just never know how things are happening.
	I mean, literally what happened was I saw 15 seconds of a video about you probably like six weeks ago.
	Probably the E60 special or something that did it last year, maybe?
	Yeah, and I'm not even sure what it was.
	No, this was just a clip.
	It's just a clip on something.
	And I was like, oh, man, this is so interesting.
	And Nick is a huge Greenwood Packers fan.
	And so I was like, oh, this seems like it would be something that we could talk about.
	And then once I looked more into you and saw the recovery and stuff, I was like, oh, this should be pretty cool.
	No, I appreciate it.
	And I know that somebody that listens to this, it'll help somebody.
	Yeah.
	It'll help.
	And for somebody, it'll reiterate that I am an ass.
	For some people, it'll be like, if they can do it, why can't I do it?
	Why can't I get sober?
	If they can get sober.
	Yeah, man.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	Because we're made of the same stuff as far as the laws of nature.
	Oh, it's a simple recipe, man.
	We're just pretty, you know.
	Why not me?
	Yeah, why not me, man?
	Why not me get sober?
	Why not?
	Stay sober and not have to go back.
	Yes.
	That's the way I look at it.
	Yeah, I think especially right now, man, it's a good message for a lot of people, you know?
	Tony Menderz, thank you so much, bro.
	Thanks, brother.
	Now I'm just footing on the breeze and I feel I'm falling like these leaves.
	I must be cornerstone.
	Oh, but when I reach that ground, I'll Share this peace of mind.
	I found I can feel it in my bones.
	But it's gonna take a little time for me to set that parking break and let myself on my shine and
	tell you I've been moving way too fast on the runaway train with a heavy load of my pants.
	And these wheels that I've been riding on, they're walls so thin that they're damn near gone.
	I guess now they just were built to land.
	Ladies and gentlemen, I'm Jonathan Kite and welcome to Kite Club, a podcast where I'll be sharing thoughts on things like current events, stand-up stories, and seven ways to pleasure your partner.
	The answer may shock you.
	Sometimes I'll interview my friends.
	Sometimes I won't.
	And as always, I'll be joined by the voices in my head.
	You have three new voice messages.
	A lot of people are talking about Kite Club.
	I've been talking about Kite Club for so long.
	Longer than anybody else.
	So great.
	Hi, Sweetheart.
	Please do.
	Anyone who doesn't listen to Kite Club is a dodgy bloody wanker.
	Give my mind.
	I'll take a quarter bottle of cheese out of the glory.
	I think Tom Hanks just buttiled me.
	Anyway, first rule of Kite Club is tell everyone about Kai Club.
	Second rule of Kite Club is tell everyone about Kai Club.
	Third rule, like and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts or watch us on YouTube, yeah?

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