Oct. 19, 2024 - The Political Cesspool - James Edwards
54:38
20241019_Hour_3
|
Time
Text
You're listening to the Liberty News Radio Network, and this is the political cesspool.
The Political Cesspool, known across the South and worldwide as the South's foremost populist conservative radio program.
And here to guide you through the murky waters of the Political Cesspool is your host, James Edwards.
I just want to say before we begin this third hour, which is part 10 of 12 of our TPC at 20 retrospective series, I want to thank everyone listening to the program tonight who has ever contributed financially to this work because it is because of your support that we were ever able to do anything like this.
And even now, on the cusp of our 20th anniversary, which we'll celebrate next year, 20 years to the day, next Saturday, all of these interviews have been a result of you.
And this one, though, was especially special.
Gottfried Dulias was born on June 25th, 1925, in his family home in Germany during the start of Adolf Hitler's rise to power.
In 1943, at the age of 18, he was summoned to Munich for testing to determine his eligibility for military service.
His efforts were rewarded with induction into the Luftwaffe.
Because of his previous glider training as a member of the Hitler Youth, Dulias had little trouble with the six-month training course.
By early fall of 1944, he was a full-fledged fighter pilot, flying his Messerschmitt ME-109G against Allied bomber escort fighters.
In October of 1944, his group was assigned to fighter duties on the Russian front on March 4th, 1945.
He strayed across the front line while trailing a Russian fighter and was shot down by ground fire.
He belly landed, was captured, and taken into a Russian prison camp, a gulag, where he was subjected to harsh conditions, to put it lightly, hard labor, and meager sustenance, consisting primarily of watered-down cabbage soup.
He wrote a book about this entitled Another Bowl of Capusta.
After nearly three years of imprisonment, he was released and returned to his family on January 4th, 1948.
He moved to the United States in March of 1953 with his wife and established a home in a small town on Long Island, New York.
We interviewed him just a few days before his 82nd birthday in 2007.
Bill Rowland was the one who was assigned the task of interviewing Godfrey Duliask.
I played a very distant second fiddle.
What you will hear, you will not hear anywhere else.
Just another thing that makes TPC so special.
Let's play the first segment of this now.
TPC's interview with Lieutenant Gottfried Dulias in 2007.
Tonight, I want to say that I am honored and excited to be part of the interview with Lieutenant Gottfried Dulias, formerly of the Luftwaffe, who was a fighter pilot in World War II.
And I'm very excited about this interview.
Lieutenant Dulias, are you on the air?
I am here, right.
Well, I am an amateur historian of sorts.
I guess that that is even bragging a little, but one of my hobbies over the years has been the study of fighter pilots, World War II pilots, and Luftwaffe pilots.
So this is really a great treat for me.
And I look forward to this interview and asking you some questions, mainly about your career.
I know the last interview that you had on the show, the last time you were a guest on the show, we talked about your horrific experience as a prisoner of war of the Russians and the cruel treatment you received at the hands of the communists.
Tonight, if you don't mind, we'd love to focus on your career as a pilot and some of the things that maybe people don't know about the Luftwaffe and the equipment you use and so forth.
Okay, that's okay with me.
And then again, of course, we want to talk some more about your book towards the end here.
One of the things I wanted to ask you, Lieutenant Dooley, I understand that towards the end of the war, as the war drew to a close, that there was some problem, particularly getting fuel for your airplanes.
Were you ever grounded or did you have to restrict your operations because of lack of fuel in your fighter plane?
Yes, many a time.
We couldn't fly because we had no sprit.
We call it sprit.
And so we were laid off.
We couldn't fly.
There was nothing there.
And also other days when we have bad weather, then we couldn't fly because most of us young pilots there did not have any instrument training because they needed pilots so badly on the fronto that as soon as you came off the air academy and could fly a plane and you could shoot, then they sent you to the front.
And it seems to me, I think in our last interview, you talked about the extensive training you got from as a very young, really a teenager, just in your teens, first as a glider pilot and then in biplanes and then later in the 108, the ME-108 trainer.
And so it seems to me that you had had extensive amount of time in the air before you ever became a fighter pilot.
Do you think that the German fighter training system produced enough pilots for most of the war?
I mean, well-trained pilots?
Oh, yes.
I mean, to fly the plane, you know, that was easy to train.
And if you were a little bit talented, you know, you caught on very fast and could fly the plane, you know.
But, you know, the requirements was, first, you had to have glider training.
Definitely.
That was mandatory.
And you had to fly the A, B, and C certificate in glider training before they put you in a motorplane.
And that saved a lot of lives during the war because here in America, the pilots are trained just in a motorplane.
And when the engine comes out, they don't know what to do, how to bring it down dead stick.
That you learn when you're trained in glider training.
Do you think the German pilots, for the most part, had an edge in training over the Allied pilots?
And who do you think were the best trained Allied pilots?
Well, in that respect, yes, because if the Allied pilots had no glider training, we did.
And so if ever an emergency comes up that your engine comes out or that you had to bring it down dead stick, you were capable of doing it.
While an American pilot possibly would panic and that's interesting to know, you know, every time we have Godfrey Dawn, this is the second time, but I've learned so much.
He is right up there at the apex.
And you know, Bill, we've had some incredible guests on this program, but picking the brain of a fellow like this, and I didn't know that.
I didn't know that the Allies didn't have experience like that.
I mean, even in my experience, I obtained a private pilot certificate flying Cessna's there at the school in Olive Branch.
And even we were trained to fly with the engine out.
You would think that a fighter pilot would have that kind of mandatory cursory experience, but apparently not.
Amazing.
Who do you think were the best Allied pilots that you came up against?
That's right.
You know, you were talking too far away from the mic there and I hardly could hear you.
But the last few words, and you must have talked closer because I have to turn my hearing aid down in order not to beep.
I understand.
All right, I'm a little closer to the mic.
Let me try that question again.
Who do you think of all the pilots that you knew of on the Allied side, who do you think were the best trained?
Who are the best pilots the Allies had?
The British, the...
From the Allies, I would say the British.
Really?
Yeah, yeah.
Because that first air victory of mine, that Lieutenant Fred Browning from London, whom I shot down right near our base, and he became a prisoner, and I met him that afternoon.
We were talking like friends all afternoon.
And he had three years flight training.
And he was such a damn good pilot that I really couldn't grasp what he got out of that Spitfire.
And only due to the fact that I had the better plane was I able to get him.
Now, you were flying a Mescherschmidt 109 G14 when you shot down Brown.
The Spitfire, I forgot now what model Spitfire it was.
It was not the very latest one, you know.
But still, it was a very good plane.
The Spitfire is, in my opinion, just about equal to the 109.
Not quite as fast, or at least the plane that I was engaging in.
But a good pilot, he could give you quite some trouble.
Now, the Spitfire was a little more maneuverable than the Mescherschmidt, that is, in turning radius and was capable of turning a tighter radius.
Yes, that is true.
And so the Mescherschmidt, when you shot down Lieutenant Brown, what tactic did you use?
Did you dive on him?
Was it in a climbing turn?
What was the angle you used on Twitch?
The angle what I finally got him on, that he came from my right.
I forced him to fly a certain curve.
And he came in from my right and had to pass me right in front of my firing line.
And as he passed, I was very close to him.
I was not more than 30, 40 feet away from him, or even less.
And then I pulled the trigger of my three-centimeter cannon and hit him right in the engine.
Wow.
Well, now the Mescherschmidt had that big cannon.
I think it fired through the airscrew.
Is that right?
The airscrew hooked up?
Well, right through the propeller knob, yes.
Right.
And so that cannon, I think one shell from that powerful cannon could take down an Allied plane.
But then some of the American planes in particular relied on the machine gun burst, the largest.
I never used a machine gun.
As a matter of fact, my plane didn't even have machine guns, my particular model.
Mine had two-centimeter cannons on top of the fuselage, which I never used.
And also the three-centimeter cannon through the propeller knob, and the breach of that cannon was right between my legs.
So they had to move the rudder pedals to the left and right in order to make room for that big cannon breach.
Wow.
But you could count on that cannon, one shot, and the opposing plane was probably going to go down.
Oh, yes.
My second air victory when I was in, there was no combat.
The first one was real combat for a good 15 minutes, but my second one was about a week or so later.
I snuck up on him because I was flying home.
I was already low on gas, and I saw from a distance around 10 o'clock, I saw a plane coming from the right to the left.
And I saw, she was from a distance, it looked very much like a Messerschmitt.
And I said, if he is one of ours, he's flying in the wrong direction.
So to make sure, I turned, made a big turn to the right and got behind him without being seen.
And I stayed below him.
And then I saw it was a Spitfire.
Then I edged up on him and was so close that at the last moment I pulled up and with that one shot out of my three centimeter cannon, I shot his whole tail off.
That flew right off.
And he started tumbling forward and had to bail out.
And then I circled him and he was saluting me and I saluted back.
That was one of my favorite stories that you shared with us the last time you were on this program.
Bill, down to one round left in his cannon.
And our guest this evening, Lieutenant Godfrey Dulias, circles around, shoots him down.
Can you imagine that?
The guy he just shot down parachuting out of his plane and then saluting you from the air.
That's right.
Incredible story.
Yeah, yeah.
But as a matter of fact, all five confirmed air victories I had.
They all got shot down with one shot out of my three centimeter cannon.
So you only fired five shots.
My mechanics always were wondering, you're coming home here with one round missing out of the magazine, and you have an air victory.
Well, as we say in the South, that's a mighty good shooting.
But only due to the fact that I got rid of the gun sight because I couldn't get used to that damn thing.
Is that right?
Because it is mounted to the right of your cockpit, you know, and the right edge of the windshield.
And when you had to look through it, you know, you got distracted.
You're trying to fly forward, and then all of a sudden you have to bend your head to the right, and that threw me always off.
I'm telling you.
Bill, you know, I told you this last time.
If movie producers would listen to our interview with Godfrey earlier in the month and then listen to this program, it would be a crime not to produce something in Hollywood about this guy's life story.
I've seen a lot of people say in the reviews that I was read in Amazon.com there.
They said they ought to make a movie from it.
It's so fascinating.
Well, now you, I know that let me ask you about the Russian pilots.
Were the Russian pilots, how did you rate them?
How did you think of their skill and training and so forth when you well they must have had also a lot of young pilots there but there were also some that there were really that could give you a lot of trouble.
Even so, you know, our opponent of the Russians there, their field had all Polykarpov I-16s, which was also an absolute plane which was actually taken officially out of service in 1943, I believe.
But towards the end of the war, they threw up anything that was flyable.
And then, of course, they reactivated these Polokarpov I-16s, you know.
And some of the pilots were damn good, and that could give you a lot of trouble.
You know, as far as the all-flyable things are concerned, they had even World War II-type open cockpit biplanes at night with women pilots that came to disturb our sleep.
In that sense, I had thrown bombs.
How about that?
I've never heard that.
Well, they were, in other words, just literally gutting Russia for every gun that would fire, it sounds like that's right.
Well, that's incredible.
So these I-16s, even though they were fairly ancient planes by that time of the war, I know that they were even used, I think, against the Japanese in Manchuria before the war.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That they were fairly ancient planes, but still apparently the pilots were pretty well trained and effective.
That's right.
They had some very good trained pilots there.
Of course, there were always some around some young pilots like I was, inexperienced, and you could see when they were flying in combat that they didn't know how to do the right thing.
They used two shots instead of one shot.
This fellow's far too modern.
Well, now, was there any particular Allied aircraft, I'm just talking about the fighters themselves, that you would have really thought you were challenged when you went against it.
Was there any one particular Allied aircraft you would have?
Excuse me.
The only Allied aircraft other than the Russian planes was only the Spitfires.
Because when I was stationed with our group near Aachen, Northwest Germany, we were in that Einflugpiste, or the link what the incoming B-17s are using.
It was the shortest way from England to North Germany.
And they had Spitfires for escort because they had a shorter range.
The other ones that flew farther east in Berlin and such, they had P-51s and P-38s for escorts.
So therefore, I had the only opportunity to fly against an Allied plane was the Spitfire.
And then, of course, later on in Russia, I had exclusively the Russian Ratas, the Polykarpov I-16s, because they had some sections in the front.
The front was 1,000 kilometers long there.
And each section had different types of planes.
Our opponent, they had the Polykarpov I-16s, you know.
Now, your base, where in Russia was it, or what part of the plane?
That was not in Russia, that was in Hungary.
In Hungary, it was just northwest of Budapest was our base.
And when I was shot down there, finally, by ground fire behind the Russian lines, that was just south of Budapest, because the front was just about on the outskirts of Budapest at that time.
Well, now you, your what was the top speed of your G-14, of your Messerschmitt?
What was what?
The top speed of the G-14, the Measuresmitt.
On the G-14, well, in diving, you could outdive a P-51 because P-451 wouldn't be able to follow you that fast.
It was over 700 kilometers, you know.
Wow.
And of course, in level flight, I got maybe about 400, 450 kilometers or something like that.
Incredible.
I'm telling you, Bill, I'm absolutely engrossed by this interview tonight.
Playing second fiddle to you is an honor.
I can't even remember what I had.
It was great fun.
It's fun.
I can't even remember what I had to eat yesterday.
And then Lieutenant Dulias can remember the technical specifications of aircraft from 60, 70 years ago.
Well, now, Lieutenant Dulias, let me ask you: how badly was the Luftwaffe outnumbered in Germany at the time you were fighting there, at the time you were a pilot?
How badly were the fire?
Most of times we were always outnumbered, especially on the Western front.
And wherever you looked, the sky was full of spitfires there with the B-17s as escort for the B-17s, you know.
And then, of course, the Fokker World War 90s, our neighboring Schwartz had a free hand at the bombers because we had to take the fighter escort away from them.
But they were swarming like bees, and we were always outnumbered.
And also on the Russian front, often we were a group of like four or five planes and we had to attack 40, 45 of them.
My gosh.
And that never daunted you.
Those Luftwaffe pilots would just fly right into numbers like that and you had to have a certain technique, you know, trying to come out of the sun, be above them, and surprise them.
Then if you have that advantage, then you're ahead of the thing.
But in general, we were always outnumbered.
But also, as I said, you could dive away from a P-51.
Of course, we could dive away from a Rata if we had to.
So you had a means of escape through that steep dive out of combat, if you had to get away.
I didn't hear that quite.
I said that to get away, if you had to break off combat, you could do it by diving out of the way.
I could do it, yeah, because the Messerschmitt could take it quite good, you know, in a straight down, 90 degrees down, going straight down.
Of course, you had to watch out that you pull out in time, you know, before you hit the ground.
But no plane could follow you that fast, you know.
And it would break up in mid-air, you know.
Just to clarify for our listeners, of course, Germany wasn't always outnumbered.
The elite and advanced fighting force that they were obviously did very well during the early years of the war until the tide turned.
Of course, Lieutenant Dulias, your career in the Luftwaffe didn't begin until when, about the summer of 1944, correct?
In August 1944, that's what I got there.
And there we were always outnumbered.
Whatever happened before, of course, at the beginning, you know, when the German Luftwaffe had the superiority about the air, then, of course, they had greater numbers.
Yes.
But then towards the end of the war, we were always outnumbered.
Correct.
All right, we'll come up for air right there.
Folks, again, you look back on 20 years of interviews, there are some that stand out, and this is one of them.
If you're wondering, the voice of the primary interviewer on this particular one, we interviewed Godfrey Dulias twice.
The first time I took the lead, and it was about his life and his time and as a prisoner in a Russian POW camp, which I think only about 1% of people survived.
The second interview, Bill Rowland took the lead.
He was my co-host in the early years of the program.
Bill died much to our loss in 2013.
And before Keith was the lead co-host, Bill was, and he took this one.
And this was part two of a two-part interview with Godfrey Dulias, and Bill wanted to talk to him mainly about the equipment that he flew and the technical specifications of it.
And well, that's what you're listening to.
I'm going to take a break.
We'll come back.
We'll let Keith chime in on his thoughts on this so far.
And we'll listen to the second half of this interview, as you would have heard it if you were listening live to TPC in 2007.
20 years of memories.
Next week, next Saturday is 20 years to the day.
It all started on October 26, 2004.
And this was one of those nights.
We'll be right back.
Protecting your liberties.
You're listening to Liberty News Radio.
Takes a toll on our bodies.
No way around it.
Whether it's sitting hours on end at your computer or working a physical job, over time your body pays the price.
There is, however, an effective way to turn back the clock on pain, Relief Actor.
Developed by doctors, Relief Actor helps support your body's response to inflammation.
The difference, instead of masking pain, Relief Factor helps eliminate it for good.
And it's 100% drug-free.
If the pains that come with living a full life are affecting you, do as so many others have.
Turn back the clock on pain with Relief Actor.
Their three-week quick start is just $19.95.
Less than a dollar a day.
When you feel good, it's amazing how much more you get out of life.
So visit reliefactor.com or call 1-800-4RELIFE.
That's 1-800, the number 4 relief.
Try it for only $19.95.
While we can't stop aging, oh, yet we can stop pain.
Turn back the clock with Relief Actor.
A nonprofit finds in a recent survey, large employers expect the cost to treat patients to jump nearly 8% by next year.
That would be the highest growth rate in a decade.
The nonprofit business group on health is trying to help employers navigate it.
Its CEO, Ellen Kelsey, expects employers will be more selective about the care people receive in 2025.
They will also try to manage the use of expensive drugs like the obesity treatment Wagovi.
That is correspondent Jeremy House reporting the CEO of a major healthcare giant stepping down.
CVS Health CEO Karen Lynch making that move with company shares sinking 19% this year and the company struggling on several fronts.
Lynch reportedly will be replaced by veteran CVS health executive David Joyner.
Breaking news and analysis, townhall.com.
Windy in the western U.S.
A weather event called the Diablo Wind is expected to whip across Northern California and cause humidity levels to drop and raise the risk of wildfires.
Forecasters issuing red flag warnings for fire danger through Saturday from the central California coast up to nearly the Oregon border.
Pacific Gas and Electric prepared to turn out power to a small number of customers in areas where strong gusts could damage electrical equipment and spark blazes.
Power shutoffs also possible in Southern California.
John Scott reported.
Members of Biltmore Church in Asheville, North Carolina, among those delivering relief to their neighbors affected by Hurricane Helene, despite grieving their own losses, of some cases, loved ones, homes, and livelihoods, with the one-two punch of Helene and Milton, faith-based disaster groups getting ready for a very long, slow recovery.
More on these stories at townhall.com.
Hey there, TBC fans.
It's your friend Lacey Lynn here with a quick word about the Conservative Citizens Foundation.
The mission of the Conservative Citizens Foundation is to promote the principles of limited government, law and order, judicial restraint, and states' rights, while at the same time exploring the dangers posed by liberalism to our cultural institutions.
The Conservative Citizens Foundation also seeks to educate the public on the dangers of extremist ideologies like critical racer and cultural Marxism.
The Conservative Citizens Foundation has partnered with this program for many years and their work comes with our highest endorsement.
We want you to be sure to check out their highly informative website at natcon.life.
There you will find the latest headline news on all of the issues that matter most like crime, left-wing violence, anti-white bigotry, censorship, and freedom of speech.
Bookmark the Conservative Citizens Foundation as one of your daily reads and support their work at natcon.life.
God tells us in Hebrews 10, 25 that we should gather together to worship him.
This isn't a request.
It is a command.
Going to church isn't an option.
It is your Christian duty.
With the hellish apostasy of mainstream churches, attending church these days can be difficult.
That is why you're King James Only, traditional services in the ancient Church of St. Mary Magdalene alive, online.
And I invite you to gather with our congregation to study God's Holy Word.
Join us every Sunday at the TemplarChurch.com and especially on the first Sunday of the month for Holy Communion.
This do in remembrance of me is also a command that all Christians must obey.
I'm Reverend Jim Dowson, ordained Puritan minister, nationalist, and a veteran pro-life campaigner.
Tune in to my weekly sermons at the TemplarChurch.com.
Based in Ireland, this old-time religion is the faith that built America.
God bless you.
Thank you, folks, for giving us the privilege of 20 years on your radio.
We'll celebrate it together next week, a very special anniversary show two weeks from tonight.
The election preview show.
Three weeks from tonight, it'll be post-election.
But one thing we are doing is taking one hour per month.
I don't think that's too much.
One hour per month and allocating it to our TPC at 20, a retrospective series and revisiting some of our most iconic, most historic interviews.
And, well, to say the least, this is one of them.
The work we have done these last two decades is at once groundbreaking, essential, and unique.
For our movement to grow, you need institutions that can develop relationships with elected officials, celebrities, rogue members of the elite, and historical figures.
And I don't know of anyone who's done it to the extent that we have.
These interviews that we've been featuring as part of this series, no one else has ever done.
No one else could have ever done it.
No one else could have had this access.
But we have, and it's been very special.
Keith, you're listening to this.
I listened to it for the first time yesterday, for the first time in 17 years.
I listened to it.
There's a part coming up that will play this last segment here that made me purse my lips and almost brought me to tears.
You're listening to this.
What is your reaction?
Well, I love all the information that he's giving us about the actual experience of being a fighter pilot.
It reminds me of there's an AE arts and entertainment series that had biography on Manfred von Richthoven, the Red Baron in World War I.
And I would love to show him, to have showed him that tape and have him comment about it.
But there are a lot of things that are reminiscent about that.
I, for example, listened to him talking about coming out of the sun, and that's a tactic.
That's a tactic that was part of what was called Bolka's dicta in World War I. Oswald Bolke was the first big, publicized flying ace of the German Air Force in World War I, and he was the mentor of Baron von Richthoven.
And they had all these things to do.
And Richthoven ran into him on a train in East Germany and said, how do you do it?
He said, you just get close.
In other words, the air currents around World War I aircraft are so violent that you're liable within 100 feet, you're liable to have something go 30 feet one way or another.
So the closer you could get, the better you could.
And see, the thing about that type of flying, it's basically murder.
You don't go out and say, here I am, let's go fight and whatnot.
You try to sneak up on your enemy, shoot him down before he knows where you are or what hit him.
See?
Well, this interview with Godfrey Dulias, I steered the first one, which was about his life and his time in prison.
This one mostly about his time in the war.
And Bill Rowland, obviously our longtime co-host back in those early years, spearheading this one.
Godfrey Dulias sent us a lot of books.
He signed a lot of books that we offered as fundraising incentives back then.
No, that's one of Harry.
No, Harry has the book When Eagles Sword, Harry Cooper.
Godfrey Dulias' book was Another Bowl of Capusta.
But in any event, he was a friend, and I look back on it now.
So many of our friends have left this mortal coil, but we still have them on the archives.
And for those of you who have become listeners of TPC since 2007, there are high odds you've never heard this before.
But you're hearing it now as part of our TPC at 20 retrospective series.
Let's go to the second part of this interview, and then we'll wrap it up for you in a few minutes.
I would like to ask you about some of the well-known personalities of the war who were either in command in the Luftwaffe or otherwise were part of the Luftwaffe.
Just your opinion on some of these.
I know we have talked about Eric Hartman, the number one ace in Germany.
Did you ever have the opportunity to meet Eric Hartman in your...
Well, the only time I met Eric Hartman, he was one of our neighboring squadrons, the JG-52.
He was the commander there.
And he was at one time before I got to the JG 53, to our outfit, he was temporarily the commander of that group because our former group commander got shut down and so they needed an experienced pilot for it to lead the young chickens there.
So anyway, the only time I met him was I was taxiing to take off for a mission, and he was taxiing coming down to visit.
And that was the only time I saw him.
We saluted each other as we passed in taxiing, and that was the only time I ever saw him.
What about Adolf Galland?
Adolf Galland, I never met.
But I did meet Günter Raal, not in war, but after the war, just I would say about three years ago in Washington.
He was holding a speech there in the Air and Space Museum, and we were in the same hotel.
We had breakfast together.
How about that?
But 301 kills, I think, most of them on the Western Front.
Is that correct?
Well, Gutt Daral had 275 or 276.
300 and one was Walter Schook, I think.
No, no, he had somewhat over 200 to 206 or something like that.
And Rawl, I think.
I think 300 club was very, very small.
We might have to hire Lieutenant Dulias as a co-host, Bill.
I mean, another story.
I mean, three years ago, meeting the man with whom he served somewhat six decades ago, incredible.
And Rawl later became an officer in the post-war Luftwaffe, did he not?
Yeah, he was a general then before he retired.
And he's still living.
Is that correct?
But I will meet one of the top aces still living, Walter Schook.
I will meet him at the World War II weekend in Reading, Pennsylvania, this June 1st to June 3rd.
As a matter of fact, I have to pick him up at the airport in Philadelphia or drive him to Reading, where he will be part of the air show there.
And so that will be the first time I will meet Walter Schook, and I will have to serve as his interpreter because he is not very good in English.
And was Schook also on the Russian front, or was he primarily?
He was at first on the Norwegian Finnish front there, Norway.
And then he went to several different, was assigned to several different outfits there.
And then later on came also to the Russian front.
And then near the end of the war, he was transferred to the Messerschmitt 262 jet planes.
And there he had, I think, eight or nine victories to the about 298 or something of air victories that he had on the Eastern Front.
And also he shot down four-engine bumpers where he got credited for.
As a matter of fact, he got credited for those about 206 or 208 air victories, but he had, they say, nearly 30 more air victories that were not confirmed.
Especially it was hard to confirm an air victory with the jet, with 262, because it was so fast that you were out of sight right after an attack.
And his wingmans got scattered around so that it could not be 100% confirmed.
And only 100% confirmed air victory is counting it, is counting for your tally.
But so he wound up with about only 208 or so air victories, had in reality about at least 30 more victories.
Wow, well, in the jet.
So the jet was that had that great a superiority over the other planes in the air.
Did you ever want to fly jets?
Did you ever desire to fly any other plane other than your Mesha ship?
I would have liked to fly the 262 to try it out, you know.
But of course, I never had a chance for that because I was busy at my outfit where I was.
I had to do my duty there wherever you were.
You had to do your duty, you know.
And so the 262, I never flew.
As a matter of fact, I never was able to fly any other plane but just the 109 at the front.
I only flew my plane, that Yellow Six, which was issued to me in August 44, I had till I was shot down finally by ground fire behind the Russian lines just south of Budapest.
Well, now you must have, as a pilot, had to rely to a great extent on the ground crews.
German ground crews.
Oh, I trusted them with my life.
They were outstanding.
They did a marvelous job.
I came home often with 20 to 40 bullet holes in my plane, and next morning you didn't even see where those bullet holes were.
My goodness.
So they could do work miracles, I guess, on the ground with resources running out, literally.
I mean, no gasoline, no parts, and so forth.
Do you think that the lack, was there ever a case where lack of parts or lack of repairs kept the planes on the ground?
Well, it did happen, yes, because the Allied bombers, you know, they bombed a lot of trains, and a lot of this material that got to the front was brought there by train, not just trucks, you know.
And the trucks even, you know, they couldn't go.
They had no sprit either.
So some of them, they were even putting French cognac in there in the gas tank.
So the German trucks were resourceful also.
They could run on anything that would smoke or fire, I guess.
That's right.
Lieutenant Dooley, I said, I ask you a question, a more personal question, a little off the technical points here.
That stage of the war, did you feel that Germany was entering a desperate phase of the war?
Was there any sense among you pilots that the war was becoming a desperate fight?
I didn't quite hear all of it.
You were too far away from the microphone again.
Okay.
Let me try again.
When you became a pilot, did you sense or did your fellow pilots feel that Germany had entered a very sort of desperate stage of the war?
Was there a sense that Germany was backed up to the wall?
Well, when I got to the front, you know, in August 1944, everybody knew that we were fighting a lost cause because we were constantly outnumbered.
And the the average lifespan of a young novice pilot was not more than one month.
So I lasted eight months on there, so I I must have been a better pilot than them, you know.
But in any case, we knew it was a lost cause.
But we had, nevertheless, we had to do our sworn duty and did it the best we could.
Well, that's admirable in any military man to know that he has his duty to do regardless of odds or circumstances or how desperate the fight becomes.
That certainly is true.
And that speaks well for the courage of the German pilots.
When you were up in the air and you were thinking about flying over Russian territory, did you dread being shot down?
Did you dread the thought of falling into enemy hands at that point in the war?
Did I dread what?
Falling into enemy hands.
That is, did you dread the thought of being shot down when you were fighting?
Well, of course, that was always in the back of your mind, you know, that to try to avoid it, not to become a prisoner of war, because we knew German pilots were almost categorically executed when they came down, you know.
And so when I finally had to make that belly landing, when I was hit by a ground fire at the tree top level there, you know, then I knew it might be the end of my life, you know.
But you agree.
But also, you know, that crew that finally found me then that next morning after I was hiding at night in the woods, they started hitting me and kicking me and cursing me and would have surely killed me if not that Russian major came along and stopped them.
So you feel that probably many German pilots might have suffered death at the hands of their captors almost immediately then?
That's right, that's right.
That's why even in the prison camps, I never met another German pilot.
Because they were, most of them were categorically executed.
Never foretold.
I mean, Bill, where else besides this program and talking with people like that?
Firsthand, do you ever hear stories like this?
And that is an absolute crime of the establishment media in the control press.
Let me ask you a question.
A friend of mine in St. Louis wanted me to ask you this question specifically, and you're the only person I know that could answer it.
He was wondering if it was true.
He had heard that German pilot victories, fighter victories, were scored by the number of engines that a plane had.
That is, a four-engine bomber would be counted as four kills if you shot it down.
Is that true?
No, that is not true.
So it was plane for plane.
It's plane for plane, yes.
I see.
Okay, well, he had heard that rumor somewhere, and he asked me specifically if you would clear that up.
Definitely, that is not true.
What was counted more as one victory, what I heard of was night fighters.
When they had an air victory in a night fight, that counted as two victories.
Really?
That's what I heard.
I cannot confirm that 100%.
I don't know.
But that's what I heard, that the pilots that were night fighters got their scores were doubled.
Well, for each one that they shot down during a night fight.
Do you think anything could have been done at that stage of the war to stop the Russian offensive, to stop the Russian onslaught against Germany?
Was there anything that the German military could have done to prevent Germany from being overrun by the Russians specifically?
Did you have any thoughts at the time about that?
Well, I was thinking about it, yes, but there was absolutely nothing you could do.
I mean, we did our best, and we were fighting to the last drop of blood as we were ordered to.
But The overwhelming masses, what they brought on, you know, it it it was uh you know, as I said, overwhelming.
The Germans were outnumbered in everything, not just in the air, but also on the ground.
Bill, you know, the courage and conviction of a man like this makes me swell with pride.
I mean, it almost brings tears to my eyes.
And indeed, last time we were talking, we were talking more about Lieutenant Dulias's personal life growing up as a young man in Germany before and during the war.
We touched a little bit on his career in his last interview with us, but not to the extent that you've covered tonight with him.
And of course, we spent a lot of time talking about his imprisonment and his recovery after that miraculous survival.
I mean, a men like this are true heroes and living legends.
Absolutely.
I knew a Lieutenant Dulias, I knew an American fighter pilot who flew P-38s in the Pacific against the Japanese.
And during the war, he was actually shot down three times and survived three belly landings, one in the water.
Was that true with German pilots too?
Did they often, I think I recall one story of I think one German pilot who was shot down 13 times and you know, but came back to fight again.
Was that pretty common because of your glasses?
That was common.
Oh, yes, yeah, yeah.
That was common.
It was very practically a routine when you made it out of a crash landing alive, you know, so that was your luck.
Get back in the next plane and took it up again, you know.
Right.
And yet the German planes, do you think that overall with their armor protection and the way they were built, that they could handle a belly landing, that they didn't break up and that they were very sturdy in that way?
Well, the Messerschmitt especially was very well holding up in belly landings.
That was well known.
It was a well-known fact, you know.
Even so, it didn't break up in a 90 degree, you know, Stutz flew crazy on the back of the bottom.
And it held up good in the belly landing.
Even my plane, when I had to belly landed, but I barely made it out of the plane and look back and boom, it blew up.
I was on fire, you know.
So I just made it out in time.
So my beloved Gustav, you know, saved my life.
A testament to German engineering.
Well, Lieutenant Dulias, let me ask, how's your book doing?
Since we're coming towards the end of this wonderful hour, a most entertaining hour.
How is after the last interview here on the radio?
There was a great influx in book sales by Amazon.com and as well as the publisher itself.
Well, pause right there.
There was actually a little bit more to that interview when it originally aired, but we are running out of time.
You can actually still get his book.
Lieutenant Dulias passed away a few years ago now, but you can still get his book on Amazon.com.
Another Bowl of Capusta, K-A-P-U-S-T-A, Another Bowl of Capusta.
Still available online.
I just verified that while we were listening this hour.
Keith, 20 years next week to the day when we first went on the air, October 26, 2004.
And who could have imagined that 20 years to the day later, it would fall on a day that we're going to be on the air, Saturday, this next Saturday.
A lot of interviews over those 20 years, a lot of hours on radio.
We have been celebrating it all year with this retrospective series.
This one, though, very special.
Very special.
Next week, we'll celebrate it all in equally.
Well, I don't know.
You can't say equally after an interview like you just heard, but in an also special program next week when we will be 20 years to the day that this show first went on the air.
Not just 20 years to the week or 20 years to the month or 20 years to the year, but 20 years to the actual minute.
We will be back on the air with you next week, next Saturday to do it.
But you're listening to that, Keith, and you remember all these years and all these interviews, and this is just one part of the story, but what a part that was.
And I was wondering, I was just in awe of Bill Rowland.
What a great interviewer he was.
I mean, Mike.
He was so smart.
And I mean, I remember meeting with him over at a submarine sandwich shop at Parkway and Central when he told me that he'd been diagnosed with cancer.
And it was just such a, you know, I remember those moments.
And it does not seem to be.
Of course, we were at his funeral.
That's Paul Bearers.
That's right.
Yeah, he's buried out in this country cemetery out in North Carolina.
Taught me a lot.
Taught me a lot.
I mean, he was on, I knew him before I first met you, before you first started calling into the show, but it was all through the Council of Conservative Citizens that any of us were together.
That's right.
And see, he was, he had been involved in the early civil rights movement, too, which gave him a real advantage because he wasn't just someone observing it.
He was someone actually out there on the front lines demonstrating and stuff.
And he was a rare combination of intellect and courage.
It's hard to find people.
Well, demonstrating on the right side.
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
Well, he was on the right side, absolutely.
Yeah, it was a cakewalk to be on the other side.
I learned so much from him.
I miss him every day.
It's been a long time since he went to heaven, and I still think about him all the time.
And obviously, you go back to these interviews, Drew Lackey, Hutton Gibson, Godfrey Dulias.
He was always there.
It just reminds me.
I remember when I had to go in the hospital for a hernia repair and no, excuse me, excuse me, an appendectomy.
I had an emergency surgery for an appendectomy.
The hernia was a different thing.
Appendectomy.
And I said, Bill, I'm in the hospital, and they're not going to let me out.
I've got to have emergency surgery.
Can you handle the show?
And he was there, and he just, he did it so well.
And he knew it was just such an integral part of the show for that first decade.
Yeah, he was a great mentor for all of us.
And he was a long time advocate for white people.
God bless and keep him.
All right, everybody.
Well, thank you so much for being with us next week.
Very special.
We've been celebrating our 20th anniversary all year, but next week it'll be 20 years to the day.
20 years to the day when it all started.
For David Duke, Jason Kessler, Keith Alexander, the late Bill Rowland, and the late Godfrey Dulias.
I'm James Edwards.
Rest in peace.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for being here with us this long.
Let's see how much longer we can go.
Thank you for the support of this program, which has made it happen day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, decade after decade.