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Feb. 24, 2026 - Timcast IRL - Tim Pool
02:32:38
THE KILLING HAS JUST BEGUN | Timcast IRL #1455 w/ Andrew Heaton

Andrew Heaton and Timcast dissect Mexico’s cartel chaos after El Mencho’s death—25 National Guard killed, airports targeted, and tourism disrupted—debating whether Trump’s threatened crackdown or Biden/Obama’s alleged complicity (via Fast and Furious) fueled the violence. They contrast Trump’s tariffs (15% global threat) with free-trade erosion of U.S. industries, from Flint’s collapse to China’s IP theft, warning automation and offshoring could destabilize jobs without safeguards. Star Trek’s economics and cultural relativism spark comparisons to real-world geopolitics, while controversial claims about gay culture—STD risks, libido-driven behavior—divert into broader debates on identity and sovereignty, culminating in skepticism over America’s long-term economic and cultural resilience under globalized trade. [Automatically generated summary]

Participants
Main
a
andrew heaton
37:58
i
ian crossland
05:21
p
phil labonte
07:14
t
tim pool
01:36:10
Appearances
Clips
c
carter banks
00:13
|

Speaker Time Text
Crazy Cartel Retaliation 00:01:54
tim pool
Chaos in Mexico.
U.S. tourists are currently trapped.
Airlines are shutting down.
Insane videos of car bombs, explosions, fires, gunshots ringing out, people running and screaming in airports.
All of this in retaliation for killing a cartel leader that some say, well, I should say, according to some reports, was at the behest of Donald Trump, who continued by saying it's only just begun.
25 Mexican National Guard were killed in these attacks.
And it is expected to continue.
Right now, we're getting reports that security forces are currently still battling cartel members, and it's popping off across the country.
Now, I would argue it seems the cartel's retaliation is basically we have ended all tourism in Mexico.
I mean, there's no possibility of you flying down to driving to Tijuana, flying down to Puerto Vallera, and having any kind of relaxing day because people are being told shelter in place.
It's kicking off.
Donald Trump and the rest of the Trump badmen are not going to back down from this.
So we don't know exactly where this will go, but some have said this could effectively be some kind of civil war.
unidentified
Ha ha!
tim pool
I said it, but not for the reason you thought I would.
Now, I don't know if you'd call it a civil war, but the cartels control various territories.
There's different cartels all over Mexico.
And many have argued it's effectively a narco-state because the government bends the knee to these cartels anytime they demand it.
We've seen all of these stories about mayors and politicians being killed when they try to stand up.
Now that Trump has effectively said, if you actually, I'm pretty sure we have to report.
Trump did say this.
The Trump bedmin told Mexico, if you don't stop the cartels, we will.
So Mexico launches an operation.
They kill El Mencho, and this is kicking off like crazy.
There's no reason to believe it's going to stop.
And so, again, tourism may be effectively over.
Trump's Message to Mexico 00:02:40
tim pool
We're going to talk about that, but boy, oh boy, do we have a lot of news for you, my friends?
At Mar-a-Lago, a man with a shotgun and fuel breached the perimeter, reportedly aimed the weapon, and then was shot and killed.
Now, according to TMZ, his motivation may have been the Epstein files.
Getting absolutely crazy, my friends.
The U.K. has arrested the former ambassador to the U.S. from Britain over the Epstein file revelations.
He was leaking financial information to Jeffrey Epstein.
Holy crap.
And then the U.S. beat Canada in hockey.
Now, all those other stories are crazy, terrifying, but the one I know most Americans care about is that we gave a thorough trouncing to Canada in their game.
And there's a viral tweet where, I don't know, Trudeau or somebody was like, you know, you can try and take our country, but you'll never take a game from us.
And now everyone's retweeting it.
And the White House posted an image of a bald eagle crushing a Canada goose to death.
So, yeah, there's that.
And still, we got a lot of news.
In response, the U.S. men's team has agreed to attend the State of the Union address tomorrow.
And the women's team just can't find time in their schedules to do it, sparking a major backlash.
Oh, boy, we got a lot for you today.
So we're going to get into that.
But before we do, we got a great sponsor.
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Isis, Coffee, and Havoc 00:15:06
tim pool
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Now, we were trying to figure out ways to sell ready-to-drink cast brew, and the shipping is really difficult when you're dealing with these cans.
Research that we did found each can would cost like five bucks, $5 for a can, a can of coffee.
And we were like, ugh, because the shipping weight to and from is pretty brutal for a small company.
Well, if we concentrate it, you can buy one bottle and get lots of coffee.
So here's how we're able to pull it off.
Check out CastBrew.com, pick up your cast brew coffee.
Don't forget, we got all the other flavors available, including Dr. Alex Stein's big booty Latina love potion.
Alex Stein is not a doctor.
But don't forget to smash that like button.
Share this show right now with everyone.
You know, we've got a lot coming up to break down.
Joining us tonight to talk about this and so much more.
We've got Andrew Heaton.
andrew heaton
Hey, good to be back.
Thanks for having me.
tim pool
Absolutely.
Who are you?
What do you do?
andrew heaton
I am a political satirist.
I make jokes about news and politics.
I host a political podcast called The Political Orphanage, so-called, because I don't really like teams.
tim pool
So, everybody hates you then.
andrew heaton
Everybody, everybody hates me.
I am either a traitor or an infidel to everybody.
tim pool
Well, all right.
Well, it should be fun then.
We'll have a good time next year hanging out.
We got Ian here.
ian crossland
Yeah, you leave a memorable impression because it's, I guess you said it's been four years since you've been here, but I feel like I saw you pretty free pretty recently.
andrew heaton
I have thought about nothing but graphene since I last spoke to you, Ian.
ian crossland
Lighting me up, Andrew, from the inside.
tim pool
Well, just I'm gonna let him know.
I mean, when he got here, his hair was perfectly done, but when he saw Ian, he started just shaking the electricity and they both started freaking out.
ian crossland
And then, you know, they stopped electricity couples, and that's why you get that static shock.
Hey, go to graphene.movie if you haven't seen that yet.
Graphene.movie.
That's where I'm working on.
tim pool
Phil's here to bring us back to Earth.
ian crossland
Yeah, Phil, take it on.
phil labonte
Hello, everybody.
My name is Phil LeBonte.
I'm the lead singer of the heavy metal band All That Remains.
I'm an anti-communist and a counter-revolutionary Carter.
carter banks
What's up, Cardbanks hanging out?
Welcome back, Andrew.
Thank you.
tim pool
Here's a story from WTOP.
Security forces keep up fight with cartel gunmen a day after the Mexican military killed a drug lord.
This is reported from the APA, in fact.
They say tourist shops in Tapalpa were open Monday and workers were on the job, but gunshots also rang out.
And in the street was a dead man lying beside a bullet-pocked vehicle.
Meanwhile, heavily armed Mexican security forces kept up the battle with cartel gunmen following the killing that sparked a surge in violence and put the country on edge.
I mean, these videos that are popping up are just absolutely nuts.
We've got this one allegedly from Tijuana.
I don't know exactly.
Look, take it all with a grain of salt.
Excuse me.
This does appear to be the Tijuana border.
You can see the border fence.
And we don't know if this is from today, but I don't see why it would not be.
unidentified
Now in Tijuana, Mexico, the cartel are blocking roads by setting cars on fire.
This is a few miles from San Diego along the border.
tim pool
And this area in Baja, California, is controlled by the.
Jalisco?
phil labonte
Jalisco, I bet.
tim pool
Jalisco?
I don't know how to pronounce that stuff.
andrew heaton
The cookie manufacturer?
Have I got that right?
Nabisco.
My bad.
tim pool
Continue.
phil labonte
All those.
Very close.
tim pool
They're smuggling cookies into this country.
You know, I mean, the videos that are coming out are absolutely insane.
And this is the effective end of tourism in Mexico.
phil labonte
No Costco is safe in Mexico now.
tim pool
Listen, this is the cartel is basically saying, you hit us, we hit you back.
But this is not just, this is strategic.
They're firing guns in airports.
They're burning vehicles in the middle of the street in key tourist destinations.
They want the Mexican government to look at this and think we are about to go broke because tourism to Puerto Vallerta, to Tijuana, these are very, very important for the Mexican economy.
Americans love coming down there and partying.
It's slightly cheap.
It's less expensive for the Americans to do so.
Now you can't go.
Americans are being warned to shelter in place.
There was a video that Fox News had a report.
Some guy said that a car bomb went off and everyone said, quick, get inside.
You can't even go outside now.
So for the people who are trapped there, we hope that they can get out safely.
But now there's no, it's just, it's just off.
The spigot has turned off.
No tourism right now.
I imagine Trump's response to this is going to be a brutal, brutal crackdown.
The reporting is that apparently Trump told Mexico: if you do not take out these guys, we are going to do it.
The U.S. will launch strikes on Mexico.
And so Scheinbaum, the president, said, okay, we'll do it.
Now, reportedly, the U.S. provided the intelligence on the location of El Mencho.
They went in, and there's conflicting reports.
I read one report, according to cartel members, apparently, the U.S. went in with the intention to murder, to kill him, not to capture him.
And I think there was something like 70 dead in the operation.
The U.S. found out that he was with his romantic partner, a woman, I'm assuming.
I don't know why I'm assuming they call it Romantic Partner because they're leftists and me.
andrew heaton
Maybe that means mistress is what that means.
tim pool
It could be.
And apparently they went in guns blazing and just killed everybody.
But I've also seen reporting.
I believe the official narrative is they went in and arrested him.
And when the cartel moved in to try and get him out, a gunfight ensued and he died in the conflict.
Now, I don't know for sure, but what I can say is ain't no way Trump is watching this go down and thinking, I'm going to let the cartels do this.
ian crossland
No, this is what the left is trying to get the American right to do is to start blowing up streets and setting roadblocks and fury.
They provoked the cartel into flipping out.
The cartel took the bait and now they're going to get wiped off the victim by the military.
phil labonte
This is victim blaming.
Like you're saying that the cartels.
ian crossland
What else could they do?
You know, their leader gets killed.
What are they going to do?
Sit back and take it?
phil labonte
But I mean, the cartel are the ones that are actually causing the havoc.
The cartel are the ones that are blowing things up.
The cartel are the ones that are killing people.
75 people, 74 people of total have been killed in the operation in its aftermath.
25 security, 25 security forces of the National Guard have been killed.
This is not like you don't appease the bad guys.
Like you, you don't just sit there and say, oh, we can't put these guys in jail or go after these guys because they'll wreak havoc.
Then you, that's how you end up with this situation.
You end up with the government not controlling parts of the country because you're appeasing them.
You're saying we can't go after them because they'll attack back or they'll cause havoc.
ian crossland
You can appease them with that.
What they try and do is they buy off their opponent.
If that doesn't work, they'll try and assassinate the guy, which they just did with this guy.
Then you'll do full-scale invasion.
andrew heaton
I have mixed feelings on this.
I used to play Dungeons and Dragons with El Mencho, who is a great DM.
And I was in a drug cartel in Mexico for about 10 years.
And they've got a good pension plan.
phil labonte
Nice.
andrew heaton
And it feels like they've kind of gone off a different direction than when I was there.
I don't know.
tim pool
Non-discriminatory policies.
andrew heaton
Yeah, that's it.
tim pool
No, they don't harass you or kick you out for being gay or Latino.
ian crossland
But it was all those, they smoked all that pot, man.
tim pool
Well, it was trafficking meth and fentanyl.
And this is likely why Donald Trump said, take them down.
Oh, yeah.
Just the other day, Trump had that angel, or it was today, I think, the Angel Moms event.
phil labonte
Yeah, today.
tim pool
He said February 22nd is going to be, was it Angel Family Day?
And for those that aren't familiar, this is a term that means if you're an angel parent, it means your child was killed by an illegal immigrant.
So Trump declared yesterday as the day to commemorate all those who are killed by illegal immigrants.
And look, this is the guy, the Jalisco was responsible for the trafficking of fentanyl into the United States.
I think Trump called up Mexico and said, he's done.
And Mexico said, okay.
Because you know what's funny?
The cartels right now shutting down tourism are they're exacting leverage against the state.
They're saying, you want to go to Trump because he's threatening pain.
We're going to bring you pain.
We're going to shut down your tourism.
The problem is Trump can threaten so much more.
phil labonte
Yeah.
tim pool
The cartels do not have the leverage here.
They can kill, they can bomb, they can fight, and they can scream.
And Trump can go to the Mexican government and say, we can end Mexico.
Okay.
The degree to which Trump can threaten Mexico is insane.
The degree to which one cartel can is scary, but nowhere near as scary as Donald Trump threatening to launch U.S. invasions of Mexico.
phil labonte
The cartel can wreak havoc.
They can cause unrest and stuff.
But the U.S. has spent 20 years building an apparatus, the past 25 years, building an apparatus to find people anywhere in the world.
We found Osama bin Laden hiding out in Pakistan, where the country was doing everything they could to help.
There's no one in Mexico that can hide from the United States military apparatus.
And we don't have to drop a ton of bombs.
We can literally send hellfires with swords on them and take out individuals without blowing up everything.
Like the United States as a military entity is beyond what anything the cartels are prepared to handle.
ian crossland
I wonder, like, of these cartel members, they're like getting bribed by the CIA right now to turn on each other.
And then when they turn on each other, the CIA's like, you're all dead anyway, and they kill them all anyway.
phil labonte
Why would the CIA bribe them?
ian crossland
Why what?
phil labonte
Why would the CIA, CIA, bribe them?
ian crossland
Get them to turn on each other, then it's one less enemy and one more ally.
phil labonte
They're going to turn on them.
andrew heaton
When I was in the cartel, I took a lot of kickbacks from the CIA.
It was actually a big part of my job.
unidentified
Yeah.
ian crossland
It'd be like, in addition to military operations, you're trying to bribe leadership to turn on each other and stuff.
And it's like with a limitless amount of money with the CIA tech they got.
phil labonte
They're fighting each other now because the cartels are going to start fighting each other for dominance over territory and stuff now.
They don't need the CIA to pay them to fight each other.
They want to fight each other to take over territory as it is.
tim pool
Yeah, but I think this is it.
I think what you are seeing with Donald Trump's foreign policy is pretty dang nuts.
In his first term, he crushes ISIS.
In his first term, the war, the conflict in Ukraine starts dying down.
You get in the second term.
So I'm going to throw it to Biden for helping kick off the Russia war with Ukraine.
I blame Russia largely, but Biden's failed foreign policy with Afghanistan and Ukraine helped largely with Ukraine, helped contribute to it.
And then you have Donald Trump coming in.
What does he do?
He's taken out the drug boats in the Caribbean and the Pacific.
He, again, already ISIS crushed.
You got Abraham Accords.
Trump is working on his peace deals.
And so it looks like his interests are substantially more in line with domestic protection.
That being said, we have deep concerns about an escalating war with Iran.
So I'm not going to say it's out of the question.
But I think the cartels are cooked.
I think Obama, let me just say one more thing.
Obama wanted ISIS to exist.
The U.S. government was funding groups that eventually became ISIS, and they were utilizing weapons the U.S. had given to these people.
And Barack Obama gave thousands of guns to the cartels.
Fact.
It was called Fast and Furious.
Now, the excuse they give was they were going to give the guns to the cartels, but then track them and see how the guns were being used and who got them.
Yeah, you always give your enemies a bunch of automatic weapons.
Ridiculous.
And they actually found in the raid rocket launchers.
So some are questioning just what these are military grade.
phil labonte
Yeah.
tim pool
To what degree the U.S. was actually providing support before Trump got in.
andrew heaton
Tim, do you think that that was a willful action?
Like, I would read Fast and Furious as just incompetency on behalf of the DOJ, but like, are you inferring that they wanted to arm them rather than entrap them?
tim pool
You know, I would typically say something like Hanlon's razor.
unidentified
Are you familiar?
tim pool
Yeah, yeah.
In this capacity, if I were to assume that Barack Obama was just incompetent in handing over thousands of weapons to cartel members, I would have to assume that he was a functional retard.
Maybe they were like— It's one thing to say incompetence.
That's like the dude spilled the coffee, and I'm not going to assume he did it on purpose.
What was the plan?
Okay, we're going to give them a bunch of guns.
They're going to go use them, killing a bunch of people, but then we'll know they did.
unidentified
No, no.
What?
ian crossland
You give them the guns, then they take control from their government.
Then you have no choice but to go in and quell the resistance and take the country for yourself.
It's the same thing they did with ISIS.
They armed them.
Now they have an enemy to go invade and take.
Now we have Afghanistan.
tim pool
Well, we armed our own enemies.
Technically correct in some circumstances.
The point of ISIS was to get Assad out of power.
The reason why the U.S. let, under Barack Obama, ISIS expand rapidly was because it was like we couldn't, I mean, we did invade Syria, which is funny because who remember was in that who remembers when that happened?
Does anybody remember a big declaration of an invasion of Syria?
ian crossland
Well, they tried in 2013, and I wasn't sure if he spoke high.
No, not then they didn't because Obama wouldn't do it.
tim pool
Obama did do it.
ian crossland
Not officially.
tim pool
Obama did do it.
And it was after Trump got out of his first term, Biden sent the troops back in.
ian crossland
Declaration of war is what I'm saying.
tim pool
I know, exactly.
He went and did it illegally.
So anyway, the point is this.
Obama was like, let's let ISIS expand because they are attacking Assad's regime and they're going to knock Assad out of power.
The propaganda machine did everything to say Assad was an evil guy because he was aligned with Russia and we did not like him.
We wanted to build an oil pipeline into Europe to offset Russia's gas monopoly.
A lot of other factors.
That's a big one.
Assad said no.
Then we said, we're going to knock out your government.
So Obama lets ISIS happen.
We provide materials and weapons to the rebels, the Free Syrian Army Associates, which eventually get taken over by ISIS extremists and become a singular faction.
And the U.S. is happy to let it happen.
They say, we'll sit back and watch them tear each other apart.
Trump gets in and he flattens ISIS.
I don't think that Barack Obama gave those guns as an excuse to invade Mexico.
I think he gave the guns to the cartels because the cartels are part of what they need to happen for drug trafficking and human smuggling into the United States.
I think that the interests of the Unit Party, like the Democratic Party, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and the neocons has never been, at least in the last 40 years, for the American people.
And you can criticize Donald Trump for a lot of things.
In fact, there's so many things it's hard to name, but at least you can look at his plans and what's going on and say, well, that's for the American people.
andrew heaton
Can you elaborate on the Mexico bit?
Because I follow you in terms of arming ISIS.
We have a long history of arming people that turn out to be our enemies.
So that sounds plausible to me.
But why would they want to build up cartels in Mexico?
Like what would the Democratic Party get from having increased drugs?
tim pool
Well, it's not the Democratic Party.
It's the Uniparty.
It's the old Republicans.
We're all the same.
Neither of them were going to go in and do ambush, didn't do anything about it.
Are you familiar with the crack epidemic in the 90s?
And it was how the CIA was basically facilitating all of this.
And the reporter who uncovered it committed suicide with two gunshots to his head.
You have to wonder about what was that all about?
Well, there's a lot of conspiracy theories, but the reporting is basically the CIA was funneling crack cocaine to black neighborhoods.
Your guess is as good as mine, I guess.
Suppress and depress minority populations, maybe.
I'd have to imagine that with the flow of fentanyl and other drugs and human trafficking, the Democrats have been encouraging, especially in the Biden administration, they would want these groups to be able to operate to do what they want to do.
Biden's Yemen Dilemma 00:15:40
tim pool
Not only that, but it allows the U.S. to do, I would just call it extra-legal things undercover.
You can't go to the Mexican government and say, we need to transport 2 million people into our country through your border, because that's public record.
But you can certainly go to the cartels and say, our NGOs will take care of you.
You guys provide the security.
Here's a bunch of guns.
Here's what we want to happen.
andrew heaton
So you think it was an immigration attempt?
tim pool
No, no, no, no, I'm saying there's a multitude of factors involved in why the U.S. has been supporting illegal activity in Mexico.
If you go back to the 90s, you know that the United States intelligence, CIA largely, was helping funnel crack cocaine from Mexico into the United States.
And I guess one could only surmise as to the purpose, but they were flooding black neighborhoods, black communities with crack cocaine.
I believe the working theory is that they were trying to suppress and depress black population.
Perhaps.
I mean, people argue that.
As for why he would be giving them guns, it's because they do extra-legal things that the U.S. needs or wants them to do.
So it's powerful to have these groups who are willing to do anything for money at your behest.
I think that it's a largely anarcho-state.
You take a look at Afghanistan, for instance, the United States, where we got soldiers in Afghanistan guarding poppy fields because it's a large portion of their economy pumping out heroin.
I think that the government of the United States pre-Donald Trump, like, you know, post-World War II, or probably even before that, has not been operating for the betterment of mankind, but for control.
And you need, as I think Ian brings up quite a bit, the Henry Kissinger's, what is it called?
ian crossland
Limited war principle.
tim pool
Limited war principle.
You want there to be a degree of chaos.
That's why I said I half agree with you when you said, fund the enemy so that you can take a stand against them.
It's in that realm.
I will also say, if I knew exactly what their intentions were, I'd have no problem coming out and say it.
But the only thing I can say is I don't believe Obama is so stupid that he gave a bunch of automatic weapons to cartel members on accident.
andrew heaton
I think with the Mexico thing, I'm still on Hanlon's Razor, but I share your skepticism of the kind of neocon project that's been going on in the country.
tim pool
So entertain, would you then, sir?
Why give 2,000 or more automatic weapons to cartel members?
andrew heaton
It's been a while since I've looked at that, right?
But that was Eric Holder with the DOJ.
As I recall, the plan was, which they botched, and nobody was prosecuted either.
So there are different problems with it.
But as I recall, the plan was to get the guns out and then intercept them before they were actually used.
It wasn't to just arm them.
I don't know.
Again, I'm on the side of incompetence.
tim pool
I'm sorry, you're saying two plus two equals five.
Why do you need to send guns to intercept them when you can just go as the United States government and arrest the people?
andrew heaton
Yeah, I don't know.
I don't know the deal.
tim pool
There's no logic whatsoever in the plan to give automatic weapons to cartel members.
You don't need to.
They're already buying guns from somewhere.
They already have weapons, military-grade rocket launchers.
Trump isn't doing any of this stuff.
You need only go to the Mexican government and say, shut down the cartels now.
We know they're selling drugs.
We know they're stealing avocado farms now.
There is literally no logical plan, none whatsoever.
So while I typically can look at Hanlon's razor for a lot of things, not this.
I'm sorry, like if Ian gave a drug dealer 10 grand.
andrew heaton
What Ian did give a drug dealer 10 grand.
tim pool
I know I was making a point.
No, no, listen.
If Ian walked up to a drug dealer and handed him 10 grand, do you think when they come and arrest Ian and he goes, no, no, you don't understand.
I gave him the money so that later on I could catch him with the money, they'd say, what?
andrew heaton
They use entrapment regularly, right?
tim pool
Like that is a thing that why do you need to entrap the cartels when you know what they're doing and you know who they are?
andrew heaton
They might have been trying to track the people.
I don't know the ins and outs of it.
tim pool
I see who they gave the weapons to because they were.
I'm sorry.
I just find it I find it incredibly hard to believe that Biden's government, knowing the cartels are murdering people, killing politicians, needed some kind of pretext to go in and do anything about it.
So instead, they hand a bunch of guns to people they know who are violent murderer criminals and then go, oopsie, just like when Obama.
andrew heaton
You have to remember, I've made a career out of claiming the government's incompetence.
So that is my general deal.
tim pool
Was the government incompetent when they killed Abdul Rahman Al-Alaki?
andrew heaton
Remind me of who that is?
tim pool
16-year-old American citizen visiting Yemen was at a civilian restaurant and Obama ordered a drone strike blowing the restaurant up.
andrew heaton
No, I'd say that's illegal and unconstitutional.
tim pool
He claimed it was an accident.
He said, oops, we were targeting a terror leader.
We didn't realize that it was the wrong target.
I don't believe for a second that Obama, when he's, listen, they come to him and they say, okay, president, we want to blow up, we have a target to blow up.
And Obama goes, okay, where is it at?
And he goes, Yemen.
And Obama goes, okay.
And are we at war with Yemen?
No, sir.
Okay, what's the target?
It's a restaurant.
unidentified
Okay.
tim pool
Is it a military restaurant?
No, sir.
It's a civilian restaurant.
Uh-huh.
So a civilian restaurant in a country we are not at war with, and you want to blow it up.
Yes, sir.
unidentified
Why?
tim pool
Terrorists did it.
Okay, go ahead and do it.
At bare minimum, Obama was like massacre a bunch of civilians in a country not at war with.
andrew heaton
You are arguing that the Obama administration was very competent then.
tim pool
Absolutely, the Obama administration was competent.
There are so many things one could argue about incompetence with Obama, but Obama is not a moron.
Obama was a very, very sharp, very charismatic, cunning individual.
Look at the Russia Gate hoax.
I mean, Obama's meeting with Comey, Sally Yates, who was Biden there?
And they're effectively planning to go after Donald Trump with this whole nonsense.
These people were cold, calculating.
And you know what?
The only thing I can give for them in incompetence is that they couldn't get Hillary Clinton across the finish line.
But again, so I look at what the Obama administration does, and I think it's silly to say that giving thousands of guns to cartel members was just an oopsie-daisy because Trump doesn't need any of that pretext.
He goes to Scheinbaum and says, do it or we will.
And she does it.
andrew heaton
Can you flush out for me what you see Trump's foreign policy as?
And what I mean by that is when he was running in 2016, I was hanging out with lots of libertarians.
The pro-Trump argument amongst the libertarian crowd was: Hillary's a known war hawk.
Trump is an isolationist.
Vote for Trump.
You're going to get peace.
But I wouldn't describe this term as isolationist, but at the same time, we're not going into full-blown war.
So I'm trying to figure out what's going on.
How do you think?
tim pool
America first.
Easy way to explain it.
The priorities of the Donald Trump administration as it comes to foreign issues and military issues is about what is going to benefit the United States the most.
That being said, he's far from perfect.
I don't want to see a war with Iran.
I have a general idea of why he's doing it.
No, it's not because Israel controls the United States with puppet strings, but some people are just wackaloons.
And I would argue that Trump is largely imperfect.
But look at the fervor over Trump striking these drug boats.
I mean, we see videos of boats carrying drugs blown up.
And then there's an argument that some of them are not.
They're just fishing boats and they're civilians.
And I say, okay, well, that's bad, right?
Let's take a look into that.
Let's get a full report.
Let's get an investigation and make a determination if there was military action that was taken against civilians, for which we will make an attempt to determine what the penalties of that will be.
Barack Obama murdered people.
He murdered children.
He murdered innocent civilians.
He killed American citizens.
No one cares.
And I know the left always says, what about ism?
And I say, no, no, no, no.
It's about actions speaking louder than words.
When Donald Trump targets boats shuttling drugs to the U.S. or largely to Europe in the Caribbean, they lose their minds over it, but they don't say a damn thing when Barack Obama was murdering Americans.
So I don't believe for two seconds they actually care.
Anyway, real quick, your point about Trump's foreign policy is: well, he tried not to be involved in the Ukraine-Russia stuff, but oh boy, he can't figure that one out.
The Iran stuff is troubling, but Iran is basically shutting down the Red Sea.
They're funding these terror groups, Houthi rebels in Yemen.
The Houthis are then firing on ships in the Red Sea.
And the Red Sea, of course, is a Suez Canal.
There are three major trade vectors for global trade.
You've got Panama, which Trump is trying to regain control of.
The Suez, which we do control, and Trump, the conflict with Iran, is largely around whether or not we can maintain security in that region.
And then, of course, Greenland and Canada, which is the Northwest Passage.
So Trump is, I would argue, retracted on liberal economic order worldview, but not abandoning of it, and largely focused on securing American national benefits.
So the cartels are shuttling fentanyl and drugs in the United States.
Trump says, shut it down.
These boats are transporting drugs, funding these operations.
Shut it down.
Venezuela stole billions of dollars of U.S. oil assets in 2009.
Trump says, no, we're shutting that down.
So I would argue maybe it's 60, 65%.
It's going to be a direct repercussion, or the direct repression is going to be the benefit to the American people, like tariffs.
I would argue that the perspective on Ukraine and Iran largely is, will it ultimately benefit America?
But that's where you're starting to stretch it into global security for the betterment of America.
I can understand why my libertarian friends are largely challenging of that notion.
But I would also say the libertarians that are critical of it, I respect.
The libertarians that are isolationist have no idea what's going on in the world.
andrew heaton
I'm an intervention skeptic.
So that is to say, the default is no.
You might be able to talk me into it.
Where I struggle with that analysis of Trump is it does sound like it requires me to sign off an intentionality of looking at what were the intentions of the Obama administration, what are the intentions of the Trump administration.
I don't really like either.
And so it's harder for me to put that into a rubric that I can follow.
But the basic idea would just be whatever's strategically the best thing for America.
tim pool
Well, yes.
Tariffs, for instance.
Anybody who...
unidentified
Oh, good.
andrew heaton
We can find out tariffs.
tim pool
Good.
Anybody who's interested in, well, let's pull up the latitude tariff.
said we ain't we ain't backing down yeah so let me let me let me let me grab a uh he's doing a 10 tariff for 150 days as authorized by the 1975 nea act that preceded aipa Let me – where's the – I thought I had that post pulled up where Trump is like, we're going to do it anyway.
But I want to get the – here we go.
Here we go.
Trump threatens.
Let's pull this up.
All right, everybody.
We got the story from the AP following the Supreme Court's decision that Trump cannot enact emergency tariffs under this one particular law.
Donald Trump has come out and said he's going to increase tariffs anyway, citing three other laws from the 70s.
He's now warning countries to abide by tariff deals despite the Supreme Court decision.
Any country that wants to play games, the Supreme Court decision Trump posted, will be met with a much higher tariff and worse than that which they just recently agreed to.
He said Saturday that he wants a global tariff of 15% up from 10.
He announced immediately after the ruling.
The court's decision struck down tariffs Trump had imposed on nearly every country using an emergency powers law, but the Republican president won't let go of his favorite, albeit now more limited, tool for rewriting the rules of global commerce and applying international pressure.
So I am of the opinion that the tariffs are quite possibly the best thing for the United States.
I am a huge, huge fan, and I believe that anybody who is truly interested in the betterment of the United States would support this, and anybody who either wants to extract value from the system to its decay would oppose it.
The people that I view that are, there's two groups of people that I believe are in opposition to the tariffs.
Those that want to extract the value from this country to its demise, and those who don't understand what is going on in this country.
andrew heaton
I suppose I'd be in the latter camp then.
tim pool
You don't understand what's going on in the country?
andrew heaton
If I have to pick one of those two, I think comparative advantage is a thing.
I think trade is good.
The best argument that I've heard in terms of the Trump tariffs is that there are situations where we need to use leverage to compel other countries to quit doing bad things.
And it would be better to use tariffs than to do military interventions.
tim pool
Completely disagree with tariffs as a means of military.
andrew heaton
Oh, no, like as a way of avoiding military stuff, right?
This is the best argument I've heard is that China is doing they've got a predatory IP system.
Other countries have tariffs.
We could use punitive tariffs to try to lower it.
So if you're using tariffs as a temporary leverage to try to get a policy goal, that makes sense to me.
The idea that we have a kind of zero-sum fixed amount of wealth and that if we are buying things from other countries, they're extracting wealth, I don't think that that's sound on that.
tim pool
Is your argument graph go up?
andrew heaton
My argument graph, what do you mean?
tim pool
Is your argument, comma, graph go up?
andrew heaton
Yeah.
tim pool
So the typical libertarian argument is described by a lot of people as graph go up.
And liberals have adopted this recently as well.
It means that on the macro, we can see a general economic improvement in the short term, so it's worth doing.
andrew heaton
I would say my argument is that comparative advantage is real.
tim pool
So I have a company that manufactures products.
How do I compete with Chinese slaves?
andrew heaton
If we've actually got a supply line that's got slavery in it, I'd be fine with abolishing that.
tim pool
It's all of it.
100%.
andrew heaton
All things that we get from Chinese people.
tim pool
Is 25 cents an hour not slave labor because they choose to work for that much?
andrew heaton
No.
There's a difference between.
tim pool
How do my employees, my manufacturing employees, compete with a guy who makes 25 cents an hour?
andrew heaton
They got to find a way to compete.
tim pool
So when my industry dies because we are spending 10 times as much to ship lumber to China to manufacture it with slave labor, sorry, peasant labor, and send it back to the United States, how is that good for us, our country, and our children?
andrew heaton
So two things.
First, I want to go ahead and hit the slave labor thing, right?
If there's actual involuntary servitude going on, that's immoral.
tim pool
I'm being hyperbolic.
I'm talking about people who would otherwise work for better wages with healthcare, but instead are getting paid 50 cents an hour to do this work.
andrew heaton
If we're removing actual slavery from the equation, right?
tim pool
Peasant labor.
andrew heaton
Yeah, peasant labor, right?
The one thing they can compete on, lower wages, we end up being able to import things cheaper.
It makes everybody better off in the long run.
tim pool
That's completely incorrect.
You're flat out wrong.
andrew heaton
When you look at like American manufacturing, you've got intermediate parts that come in from other countries.
So if you want to have cars in America, you need to be able to get parts from other countries.
tim pool
Why?
andrew heaton
Because if you raise the prices on that, you raise the price on the consumer and everything costs more.
tim pool
And if everything costs – so are you familiar with the old apocryphal legend of Henry Ford and the Ford factory?
andrew heaton
Yes, I'm familiar with the apocryphal.
Yeah, where he had to pay people enough.
tim pool
He argued that if I pay a higher rate, then the employees actually buy the cars from me on a loan, and then they're paying me back the money I'm paying them and then earning a percentage off the excess cars we produce.
andrew heaton
I haven't heard the loan bit, but I do think it's apocryphal.
tim pool
Well, it's their financing.
They can't afford to buy the car outright, but they're paid enough to where they can say, okay, I can save up for this, and then a portion of their, they're buying the product back from the guy where they're making it a premium.
andrew heaton
But like, you're familiar with comparative advantage, right?
Like, you know the basic premise behind that?
May I enlighten people a little bit?
Might be unfamiliar with it.
Skateboards and Economic Chains 00:09:38
andrew heaton
So let's say I'm Scotland and you're France.
I, as Scotland, am very good at making sheep.
I'm not very good at making wine.
Like, Scottish wine would like presumably be very sweet.
You'd probably fry it.
It wouldn't be particularly good.
Meanwhile— Well, that could be great.
unidentified
You know what?
andrew heaton
Actually, I've got to give it a - like, we're going to call it Scottish prison wine.
I would try it.
Scottish prison wine, but they're probably not going to produce very much of it because it's not very good for making grapes, right?
But they're very good at making sheep.
Meanwhile, France, really good at making grapes, large amount of grapes, very bad at making sheep comparatively, right?
They probably have some sheep.
If the Scots go, well, we want to protect our nascent wine industry, so we're going to put tariffs on the French wine industry, then France is going to respond by putting tariffs on wool coming in from Scotland.
unidentified
Indeed.
andrew heaton
The result is you're going to get more wine in Scotland, but you're going to get less wine overall in the equation.
You're going to get more sheep in France, but you're going to have less sheep overall.
Everybody gets less wine and less sheep.
tim pool
Now, you said that the Scottish wine was just no good, right?
andrew heaton
We could just focus on quantity.
They're not going to be able to produce as much of it.
So you're going to use both countries in a less productive manner.
tim pool
Is it better for the people of Scotland and the generational wine farmers to have their industry destroyed because you, as a consumer, want to save $3 on your wine?
Or is it fair to say that the bustling wine industry in Scotland, which is storied and has legacy, deserves a chance to survive for its community, for its culture?
andrew heaton
They should absolutely be able to get a lot of people.
How do they compete?
Well, you might want to get Scottish wine, but if it's something that they can't produce that people want.
tim pool
France has got Chinese peasants working 25 cents an hour producing garbage wine that Scotland can't compete against.
The wine is actually no good.
andrew heaton
And now what's going to happen is the Scots are going to put more of that effort into sheep, and they're going to produce more sheep.
tim pool
This is just not correct.
andrew heaton
Shift their economy to something that's more productive.
tim pool
So I'll give you an example that I often give to most people, which is it's personal.
Skateboarding is dead.
It's an Olympic sport, but it's completely dead.
I sold, we sold something like 500 boards in a month.
Shocking industry experts asking me, Tim, how did you sell 500 skateboards?
And I said, I went on my show and said, go to boonieshq.com and buy the skateboards.
The pros are now working for Uber Eats.
They are doing delivery driving for Amazon.
They no longer have the time or ability, for the most part, to be professionals in their own sport.
There's videos popping up of some of the best professional skateboarders who Olympic contenders who now work for Home Depot making minimum wage.
You know why?
Because the factories that produce skateboards, instead of employing Americans and marketing a product to Americans, offshored all the manufacturing to China, where we cut down wood in Canada, import it to the United States, send it to China.
Chinese peasants make the boards for pennies on the dollar, send back cheap Chinese crap, and now there's no factories, no employees, and no pro skateboarders.
If you go to Japan and China, they have skateboarding up the wazoo.
Every new pro is some 15-year-old Japanese kid, and the country that invented the Olympic global phenomenon has lost control of it because we gave it away.
Because we told people in this country, which would you rather buy?
The $50 American-made skateboard or the $30 Chinese-made skateboard.
And to be honest, when the people walked into the shop to buy a board, they didn't know the difference.
And they said, $30 sounds good to me if it works.
Well, guess what happened?
Every American worker who grew up whose dad owned a wood shop lost their job and now they don't skate anymore.
Their kids, the Gen Z, and this is across the board, skateboarding is personal for me.
I know people probably don't care about it, but it's the perfect example of how we are willing to spend 10 times as much on the energy to send our raw materials to China so peasants can do it and Americans lose their jobs.
And then when no American has the job, what company is going to promote and market the new product to kids?
It doesn't exist anymore.
It's in China.
So when you go to China, what do you find?
Thousands of kids at their skate parks.
When you go to Japan, what do you find?
They're opening new skate parks like crazy.
They're launching TV shows about skateboarding.
We invent it in California and we gave it away and it's not coming back.
andrew heaton
I lament that there's been a dearth of professional skating and that it's something that's near and dear to you.
tim pool
So why?
andrew heaton
What is stopping the professional skateboarders from just buying the skateboards that they have in China and Japan?
tim pool
There's no one skateboarding anymore.
andrew heaton
Because the skateboards have declining quality?
tim pool
The companies used to go to parks and they'd say, look at this skateboard we made down the street.
Why don't you try it there, sonny?
And the kid would then try it.
And the factory had five to 10 employees.
And those employees would come home and give the extra boards to their kids.
And the company would say, we're going to put together a skate team to market this.
That company's in China now.
So that guy going to the park, he's Chinese.
There's no American, there's very few American manufacturers.
It takes us weeks to produce because we're desperately trying to rebuild an industry while we're competing with China.
And they tell me on the phone, Tim, if you get the Chinese to do it, we'll get your boards $5 cheaper.
And I say, I don't want a $5 cheaper board.
I want skateboarding back.
I want this.
andrew heaton
Can you not just compete on quality?
I mean, wouldn't people pay a better price?
tim pool
Quality is fantastic.
unidentified
Yeah.
andrew heaton
Well, I mean, like, I think that that's good.
You might want a cheap board or a high-quality board.
Maybe we compete on quality.
tim pool
What you are missing is that the culture around this industry is gone because there's no economic support.
There's no factories.
There's no dads.
There's no marketing endeavor.
It doesn't exist anymore.
It's in China.
So in China, skateboarding is exploding like crazy.
In Japan, they're launching TV shows for skateboarding.
And today in the United States, we don't even have the big skateboard contests anymore.
They're failing and falling apart.
And all the top pros are just little Japanese kids.
Now I got no beef with the Japanese kids.
Some of the best skateboarders, they're all Japanese.
I'm pissed off that the country that made this, that invented it, that inspired the world, gave it all away.
And now where I live in my home country, I, for the life of me, well, actually, I'll say this.
One of the advantages to it is that I can go to a pro skateboarder and give them $500 and they'll come and they'll produce content because they're so desperate for money.
And what I tell all these guys, we stopped doing our games of skate events because of security issues.
We're working on trying to figure out how to do them again.
We told the pros you get $3,000 if you win and you get a guarantee just for showing up.
And they all show up and they beg to come and compete because these guys are working at Home Depot.
They're working for Uber Eats.
They're driving cars.
There is no, this is an Olympic sport.
And now there's very few people left.
andrew heaton
Would you want to have government support for this industry where they get subsidized?
Subsidies?
tim pool
I would like the government to say, if you tell, if you move your factory to China, we will charge you 30% on the way back in so that you will not be competitive in the marketplace.
ian crossland
It's two different things.
The competitiveness of the skateboard itself and then the industry of skateboarding, it's similar to like, are bikes cheap to make?
Are they Chinese bikes?
But then the cycling community and the cycling industry and cycling for the Olympics and stuff.
Is it necessary?
It's not a direct relationship.
It's more of a correlationary relationship.
tim pool
It's a direct relationship.
There's a famous photo of a man in a suit in the 1960s, I believe it was, riding a little fishboard, one of the OG skateboards in Central Park.
It's a great mystery to figure out who this man is and no one really knows.
That event that became iconic where it's like a guy in a suit and he's like cruising was because a company that made skateboards announced they were having an event in Central Park and encouraged everyone to come.
They told families, they told kids, they went and promoted it in New York City and then everyone showed up.
Well, not everyone, but a lot of people showed up.
And skateboarding started to get more and more popular in the United States.
The factories and the companies are gone.
And one of the things that's the same thing.
andrew heaton
I just want to make sure I understand this.
So they were like $50 boards here.
They're $35 in China.
And because the boards are cheaper in China, the industry has just imploded here.
Yes.
But people can still buy it.
Because you don't have to make your own board.
tim pool
So you can order your Chinese-made board owned by what I would call a vapor brand.
So some of the biggest brands in skateboarding have collapsed.
All the skateboard companies are going out of business because I would refer to them as vapor companies.
They slap a lug on a board made in China and then tell people to order it on the internet.
The only problem is there's no one.
Okay.
You have a factory, right?
It's 1960.
You have a wood shop and you make skateboards.
You say, how can we sell more of these?
You got to get kids to skate.
So what do you do?
You go to the park, you pop up some tents, you give out free lemonade and ice cream and you say, try the skateboard.
The kids are all excited and ecstatic.
And the parents go, I think I'll get some of these for my kids.
And so they buy a bunch.
Well, now you don't have any factories.
You don't have any shops.
andrew heaton
They can still, I mean, like, so the boards are cheaper now than they were when it was made in America?
tim pool
Indeed.
andrew heaton
And the result is there's fewer people skateboarding?
unidentified
Yes.
tim pool
See, this is what I was saying about people who don't understand the economic chain.
They simply look at the numbers improve.
So what's the problem?
The problem is when a guy shows up to a wood shop and says, I don't know nothing about skateboarding.
You say, well, we need someone who knows wood.
I certainly know wood.
How would you like a job at a wood shop?
I'd love one.
Then he goes home with some samples and he gives them to his kids.
And his kids go to their friends and their friends say, wow, I like this.
Let's do more.
Now this man working at the factory starts talking to his neighbors.
I work in a wood shop.
We do skateboarding.
Hey, it's an Olympic sport.
We're actually sponsoring some of the Olympic athletes.
It's big.
Then a rival company pops up and says the kids can't get enough of these things.
We need a new factory.
All those factories are gone.
There's no longer a guy going to his kid.
There's no longer a company going to the park.
The demos don't exist.
And one of the biggest brands in American skateboard history moved to Japan.
andrew heaton
My guess would be that if you were to buy a keyboard today, like a piano keyboard, you're probably going to get a Casio or something like that.
I don't think that we've had like a limited amount of people learning piano or to use the woodshop example, like guitars are still abundant.
People are still playing guitar.
I don't know where they come from.
Why Detroit Matters 00:11:09
andrew heaton
It wouldn't surprise me if they're not from the United States.
tim pool
I think the issue around something like skateboarding is that it's decently new relative to, say, like piano, which has been around and is global.
And there's tremendous opportunity.
What I would still argue, though, is, as someone who is not a pianist, I can only refer to the things in which I'm involved in, and I can stress the same thing is happening in other industries.
So I can cite surfing, snowboarding, and skiing as being massively impacted by foreign manufacturing.
andrew heaton
And it's because the boards are lesser quality, so people aren't skating as much?
tim pool
It's because there's no culture anymore.
So do you know culture works?
andrew heaton
Yeah, but I don't want the government propping up culture.
Like, I think I don't want the government punishing other people for making economic choices.
tim pool
What do you mean punishing other people?
andrew heaton
Well, because you're taxing me for buying a cheaper skateboard.
unidentified
Yep.
andrew heaton
Yeah, I don't think you should do that.
And to back up a little bit, I question this whole idea that it's a lack of tariffs and protectionism that's resulted in lack of American manufacturing.
So you look at like no one does this with farmers.
Like if you go back to like 1880, 90% of the American workforce was farmers.
Like it's not because we started importing food that we do.
It's because we got really, really good at making food.
So my uncle's a farmer.
He's basically like an acronym.
tim pool
Let's go macro.
Let's go macro.
Tell me about Detroit.
andrew heaton
Detroit with manufacturing, I'd say has more to do with unions and with just the cost of manufacturing cars in general.
tim pool
Why are people right?
So agreed.
So if we stopped allowing companies to move their factories to Mexico or Indonesia or other countries, it would be a little bit more expensive, but there would be a bustling auto industry in Michigan.
andrew heaton
So let's kind of stick with that for a minute.
It's like steel, for example.
Steel is one of the things Trump talks about regularly.
We export more steel now than we did in the 1980s.
The difference is we need fewer people to do the steel.
We came up with better innovations for it, and therefore we have fewer people working in it, but the actual exports are fine.
With cars, like most of the cars we get in the United States, even if they're foreign, like Kia, Toyota, whatever, they're manufactured here in the United States by American workers.
You can buy stocks.
No.
tim pool
No, I mean, Donald Trump's famous, well, I should say Michael Moore's famous speech of Donald Trump in his 2016 campaign was that he went to the auto manufacturers and said, if you move your factories to Mexico or China, I will slap a 30% tariff on your vehicle and no one will buy it.
And it was the first time someone stood up for the workers.
We have watched Michigan deteriorate in psychotic ways.
Flint, Michigan being an amazing example of what happens when you gut the manufacturing base.
So yes, one could argue with innovations in travel and transport and cheap fuel specifically, we've been able to move manufacturing to other countries through these free trade agreements.
So what ends up happening is if you're a family who lives in Michigan, hey, it's like that movie Tommy Boy.
Remember that one?
The brake pad factory goes, the whole town goes.
I like to go to cities, or I could say this, when I go to cities, I like to ask the locals, what is the basis of their economy?
For what purpose does this town actually exist?
And you'll find out really interesting things.
You know, in Seattle, for instance, a lot of timber.
People don't know that, but what is the economic driver of the Pacific Northwest?
All the lumber work that gets done gets spent in these states setting up shop.
So for example, if I find a gold in the ground, and then I'm like, I need to hire 100 people to get the gold out of the ground.
You get a pop-up city.
Well, what happens?
Someone says these people are hungry, opens a restaurant.
And so then towns form.
In Michigan, something really interesting happens.
You're familiar with the Flint water crisis.
That's a direct result of sending our auto manufacturing to Mexico and other countries and importing cheap vehicles.
andrew heaton
I'm unfamiliar with that.
It won't be true.
tim pool
So what happens is in Michigan, you have a water distribution apparatus, the city water supply of Detroit.
When you divide the fixed cost of water distribution among, say, a million people, I'm going to use vague numbers because actual numbers get wonky.
Let's say you have a million people and it costs everybody $100 a month for their water bills in their homes.
That's not so bad, right?
I mean, it can be heavy for your house, but it's just $100.
So if the economy is stable, you're going to be able to afford it.
Well, the manufacturing leaves, and this means we begin to see a mass exodus from Michigan.
Something like, I think in the 2000s, it was like 11 families per minute were leaving the state.
This means the tax base is eroded, but the fixed cost of the water delivery system remains static.
Overnight, an individual receives double the water bill.
That's something you just can't afford.
It's a shock charge, especially when, as the auto manufacturing leaves, there's less money coming into your city, state, or town, less tax revenue for social services and public roads, and less money in general being spent on restaurants and toys, whatever it might be that drives that.
andrew heaton
They got to shut off parts of town.
tim pool
They got to get a water bill you can't afford.
So what did Flint say?
Why are we paying the most expensive water bill in the country for Detroit water when we can use Flint River water, which was contaminated with Legionnaires' disease and started running water through pipes, which got everybody super sick?
It is unfortunate.
andrew heaton
If they'd wanted to relocate their factory to Louisiana, should that have been legal?
tim pool
Yes.
andrew heaton
Okay.
It would have caused the same problem, though, right?
Like Flint would have had the same issue?
tim pool
Not necessarily.
andrew heaton
Why not?
tim pool
The issue with Mexico is you have to compete with no union wages.
You have to compete with no minimum wages.
You have to compete with no health care.
And you have to compete with cartels running a lot of sweatshops.
Or I should just say illegal activities, easy way to explain it.
At least Louisiana would have to present to the auto manufacturer legal and justified competition to which Michigan.
andrew heaton
My point is just if they were to relocate elsewhere in America, you'd still have that kind of collapse of services because you'd have fewer people.
tim pool
Ignoring the fact.
No, wrong.
Because in the United States, we have federal laws on manufacturing and distribution.
andrew heaton
So Mexico from California to Texas.
tim pool
And I have no problem with states in a stable system trying to be competitive with one another.
andrew heaton
Do you think it would be preferential if they all had tariffs between each other?
tim pool
I mean, if it's going to build up the local economy, wouldn't it be beneficial to have been arguments made, such as in Ithaca, New York, are you familiar with the Ithaca Hour?
andrew heaton
No.
tim pool
Largely fallen into disuse, but they created a local currency which lasted for about 20 years that could only be used in Ithaca.
And it was called the Ithaca Hour, representing an hour of labor, and people could be choosed to be paid in hours or in U.S. dollars.
And in fact, it actually helped boost the economy.
andrew heaton
I would be fine with that if you wanted to have alternate currencies.
tim pool
And the point of the currency is that it can't leave the jurisdiction.
So you can make the argument that Louisiana can offer to compete by going to an auto manufacturer and saying, we're going to cut you 5% on taxes.
Michigan can then say, we will too.
But the one thing you can't compete on is peasant labor, which is impossible, especially with unions.
So of course, these factories want to generate profits.
You move the auto manufacturing out of the state, the economy gets depressed.
This idea that we would be a service sector economy is insane, or even worse, that we would be a cultural economy when we're literally bleeding our culture out across the planet and doing nothing to protect it.
andrew heaton
We're not a service economy or only a service economy.
We're still a manufacturing powerhouse.
We have been.
It never went away.
The difference is that we shifted from like low-wage stuff, the peasant labor that you're talking about, to high-end stuff, like building airplanes, computer parts, things like that.
I would rather have a high-end manufacturing industry than a low-end manufacturing.
tim pool
This is all macro grafted go-up argument that ignores the fact that cultures, families, traditions, and our country is gutted and eroded.
By all means, if you want to live in a plastic, jumpsuit, shaven-headed society, let's roll, baby.
We'll all see short-term gains as what makes the soul of our nation function.
Dies.
andrew heaton
What I want to do is maximize people being able to make free choices and not have top-down command economies.
So I am fine with you.
If you find a better deal, I'm fine with you taking that deal.
Again, we'll carve out slave labor and things like that.
But in terms of just being able to have a competitive economy, be as competitive as you like.
tim pool
Do you know where our aluminum comes from?
andrew heaton
No.
tim pool
It comes from Canada.
unidentified
Okay.
tim pool
Canada has no bauxite mines.
They have cheap labor.
andrew heaton
Okay.
tim pool
And so instead of building our own aluminum refineries, being more energy efficient, we import aluminum from Canada, who imports their raw materials, bauxite, which refines into alumina and then aluminum in Canada, when the United States very well could have their own very cheap aluminum produced in-country.
We have bauxite mines in Louisiana.
andrew heaton
Why don't we just do that then?
I mean, if it's cheaper from Canada, buy it.
tim pool
Because the worldview that you espouse, but why buy it from Canada if it's cheaper?
andrew heaton
If it's cheaper, get it.
Yeah.
Like, spend the money on something here.
tim pool
This is, we have gutted our refineries.
We have gutted our manufacturing base for a fake argument.
That is, instead of building nuclear reactors and hydroelectric plants so that we can do it here cheap, we're actually spending more for Canada to do it.
andrew heaton
Hey, I'm all in the argument.
tim pool
Yeah, but it's cheaper.
andrew heaton
Yeah.
Look, I'm on team consumer.
If you can get a cheaper thing, go for it.
tim pool
And if we lock down some tariffs and block out these countries and start doing it ourselves, everything will be cheaper.
andrew heaton
Why don't we just do that?
Do you think the country would be better if instead of the Commerce Clause, all the states could enact tariffs?
Do you think we would be more economically viable?
unidentified
No.
andrew heaton
Okay.
There you are.
Like, I don't think that that would benefit.
I think it's more beneficial when you can get cheap parts from various places.
You can get cheap labor from various places.
It ends up making everything less costly.
And it allows different regions to focus on what they're productive at.
It'll take that excess money and put it into other things.
tim pool
So you're not asking about what the long-term end result of that is going to be.
I am talking about the spirit of our country, what it means to believe in constitutional republicanism.
And you are saying, but we'll make money.
andrew heaton
Well, I think part of that republicanism right there is the idea of doing whatever you want as long as you don't hurt anybody else.
tim pool
No, that's classical liberalism.
andrew heaton
Yeah, and that's what the country was founded on, was classical liberalism and the idea that you are a free citizen.
You can engage in free activities, whether they're sexual or corporate with whoever you want, as long as you're not hurting anybody else.
tim pool
Well, there is a debate long-term over imports and exports and tariffs.
And more importantly, if we want to get into an argument over what the founding fathers thought when the country had 4 million people in it, 13 colonies, and imports were substantially limited due to the difficulty of travel, we're talking about something entirely different from gigantic cargo vessels traveling the whole world and undercutting the economies and cultures of the countries for which they are.
andrew heaton
You know what?
I'm always open to arguments of scaling, but that did take place at a backdrop of mercantilism.
The idea of mercantilism was well known.
What you're describing as mercantilism, what Trump is as a mercantilist, like that was well known at the time.
tim pool
So the point I'm bringing up is with a subculture, particularly like skateboarding.
And this is, again, there's also snowboarding, there's surfing.
Everyone's complaining about very similar things.
The United States is hollowing itself out.
It's pumping out money to foreign countries because they will always have cheaper labor.
Housing Crisis Comedy 00:15:52
tim pool
We now have houses people can't afford.
We are not producing enough.
We never were ever since the petrodollar got kicked into gear after with the liberal economic order.
You've got Gen Z that can't buy anything.
There's no low-skill labor for which a young man or woman can get a job to actually be competitive.
And at the same time, we're opening the borders to non-citizens who are effectively taking a lot of our low-skill labor.
This is the end if this continues.
And I mean, those of us that are rich are going to enjoy it all the way down until we invest in China and GTFO.
unidentified
All right.
andrew heaton
There's a bunch of things to unpack there.
Okay.
So in terms of the rising housing costs, I would say the principal reason that housing is getting more expensive is that we restrict supply.
Like America doesn't have a housing policy or even investment policy where we want everybody's house to raise in value forever.
tim pool
Housing sales, housing prices just went down for the first time in a long time and sales have actually failed.
andrew heaton
No, that's terrific.
And there's going to be variation day to day, right?
But the principal reason houses are expensive is not because of free trade.
It's because we restrict how much houses can be built.
Like that's the main thing.
It's restriction to supply.
tim pool
How does that make sense when you have a plethora of houses for sale today and people aren't buying them?
andrew heaton
You've got about 2% of the housing market right now of like multiple houses that people own that nobody's living in.
But when you look at any map of any major city in the United States, 80% of it is zoned for single-family occupancy.
And so it's illegal to build a duplex.
tim pool
There are houses for sale that aren't moving right now.
andrew heaton
Yeah.
Well, we've still got high interest rates.
And then on top of that, like you're maintaining a property that you think is going to increase in value.
You may not want to leave in it, right?
So like I'm not, this is sort of a side argument, but housing, I think, like fairly indisputably is going up largely because of supply problems.
We need more housing.
tim pool
I completely disagree with that.
No.
There's so many houses for sale right now.
It's a buyer's market.
But we've got a lot.
One, I think one of the principal arguments as to why houses cost too much is that people are living longer.
And boomers who own, on average, I think they own like 1.7 houses or something, whatever the number is.
You've got a small, 80% of boomers own homes, and then a small percentage own multiple homes.
And then a small percentage own quite a few.
Gen Xersers, around 72% own a single home.
Millennials, 50%.
And Gen Z, it's something like 17% or less.
Why can't Gen Z in their 20s have a house and have a family?
andrew heaton
When you look at wages, wages have increased since the 1970s, but prices have increased for healthcare, college, and housing.
Those are the three things that have gone up.
Everything else has gone down.
Food's gone down.
Consumer goods, gadgets, they've all gone down, right?
So people are actually earning more than they did in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s across age cohorts.
But prices for those three things have increased.
So because of restriction to supply with housing, with healthcare, healthcare is a complicated issue.
I would say that it's a combination of regulatory malfeasance combined with the fact that we have sort of state-by-state monopolies that we allow rather than competition to exist.
And it's this huge morass of regulations that are in there.
In terms of college, I would say that colleges because we went from a college degree is a nice thing to have, and some people are going to have it in 1950.
Like 2% of people had a graduate degree, maybe 6% had an undergraduate degree.
But in the 1980s, we went everybody has to get a college degree.
If you don't get a college degree, you're a loser and you don't get to be part of the social pyramid, right?
With a college degree, if it's a positional good that's predicated on the value being other people don't have it, you can't equalize it.
The value can't be egalitarian.
So we pushed everybody into that system.
You also have a limited amount of college spots that are available, but you have people coming in and you have, excuse me, you have money coming in, capital coming in.
Too much money chasing too few goods is going to increase the price.
You're going to cause inflation there.
So college, we've pumped too much money into it in terms of student loans and things like that.
The federal government has college is a waste of time and nobody should go.
unidentified
Yeah.
andrew heaton
So wait, why are you thinking that housing has got more expensive because of free trade?
tim pool
No, no, no, no.
What I said was Gen Z can't afford to buy a house or have a family.
The question of why houses are getting more expensive is because we're living longer and boomers have investment properties.
We don't want it to go down.
andrew heaton
That's a supply issue, right?
tim pool
Well, technically, yes, but I mean, it's largely based on I'm not paying the blame on anybody over the fact that in order to actually get houses to lower cost, which I wouldn't necessarily call a supply issue, it's more of a question of can Gen Z make enough money to compete with the interests of boomers?
The answer is no.
unidentified
No.
tim pool
And I think the reason is we've destroyed the jobs that they would normally get.
They don't exist anymore.
And we tell women, you want to be rich, get naked and have sex on camera.
And a bunch of girls are trying.
It doesn't work for them.
And now, the worst thing about that, AI just knocked all them out of a job.
andrew heaton
I'm happy to talk about OnlyFans.
tim pool
Cyber industrialization.
andrew heaton
I'd say the main problem with housing is we don't have a housing policy.
We have an investment policy.
We want to treat houses as the principal investment vehicle of the entire country.
The problem with that is if you want all houses to increase in value forever, which is what we want, then you can't have cheap houses.
tim pool
Well, they will, though, because land is finite and population grows.
But when population retracts, these houses will implode and nothing can stop it.
andrew heaton
That probably will happen to me.
tim pool
So I guess my question for you is, ultimately, there is one simple disagreement between us, regardless of what our view on economic policy is.
I have a vision of America that is rooted in the American tradition, and you don't.
Not saying that's an insult saying you don't.
andrew heaton
I agree to disagree on that one.
No, I think individual liberty, free trade, and comparative advantage are pretty rooted in the American experience.
tim pool
Yes, but that's all money.
I mean, it'd be great if a Chinese guy got those advantages, right?
And then he can have a communist party that externally is doing those things you describe.
That's not what I'm talking about, and that's the point I'm making.
My view of American tradition is not we have a fiscal policy that the founding fathers agreed with.
It's that I wake up in the morning with snow falling all around open Christmas presents, and we have apple pie baking sitting on a windowsill, and I go outside and I watch people playing baseball.
andrew heaton
Those are nice.
They're spiritual and emotional arguments.
tim pool
They're spiritual.
andrew heaton
I think the government should be protecting you from crime and should be enforcing contracts.
It should be stopping fraud, negative externalities like pollution.
But I don't think the government should protect you from competition.
ian crossland
What about monopolies?
tim pool
Oh, no, no, no.
We're not monopolizing.
Again, I'm advancing this to the soul of a nation, not the fiscal policy.
The fiscal policy is a component of the argument, but my point is this.
andrew heaton
We're now switching from policy to sort of ideology.
tim pool
The key distinction between us is that I have a view of what makes America America based on its American tradition, and you argued for policies based on American policy tradition.
I have no interest in the United States becoming an Islamic nation where women have to wear the Kaab.
andrew heaton
Yes, me neither.
tim pool
Well, go to Dearborn, Michigan, and tell me what you see.
andrew heaton
I don't think it's very germane to the free trade thing.
tim pool
The point is, why did we have 20 million people on the high estimate?
You know what?
I'm going to pause and go low estimate.
Why did we have 10 million people be allowed to enter this country illegally under the Biden administration?
andrew heaton
Biden screwed up where he decided that there were, hold on, real quick.
We'll talk about immigration in a moment.
In terms of the spiritual defending things thing, let's say that there's an industry that, like I work in entertainment, like you're a journalist, but we're kind of broadly in the same media family, right?
Like if stand-up comedy became less popular, I wouldn't want the government to prop it up.
And I do stand-up comedy, right?
tim pool
Agreed.
I would question what you have done with your industry and why you couldn't make it more popular.
Right.
andrew heaton
And if they're same thing, if there are manufacturers that are making buggy whips or are making saddles and people don't want to ride horses as much, I don't think that there's any onus on the government to protect those industries.
tim pool
And so what I see is a willingness of libertarians, short-term gains, burning the country down.
andrew heaton
I don't think there's short-term.
unidentified
No, no, no, hold on.
tim pool
Let me ask you this.
What if Americans stopped listening to American comedy because the Chinese comics were just funnier?
Now, the thing is.
andrew heaton
Great.
We get more comedy.
tim pool
And then all the people start adopting Chinese communist views.
They start voting for communism.
And then they have you arrested because 10 years ago you said something naughty.
andrew heaton
I feel like we're getting into civil liberties now.
I would very much stand with you in First Amendment protection.
tim pool
This is the problem I have with libertarians.
I mean, as podcasters.
andrew heaton
Tim, as podcasters, we're already in competition with the entire planet.
You and I are in competition with porn any minute.
tim pool
Indeed, but largely those who speak English and care about these issues.
andrew heaton
Which means Australia and Canada and Britain and everything else.
And that's part of it.
tim pool
The short-term benefits you're looking at ignore the cultural ramifications of the world you live in.
We are in a country right now where you have competing ideologies within our own borders.
You've got the multicultural democracy largely represented by progressives in the Democratic Party and constitutional republicanism largely represented by not even Republicans, just the MAGA point, a part of it.
What we end up seeing then is when you go to Dearborn, Michigan, for instance, you have an enclave of Islam and Sharia Patrol.
You have Chinese communist police departments opening across the United States because the graph go-up argument ignores what makes a people.
What a constitution is, is the views of the world that constitute its people.
And when we open our borders, because we say economically, it's great.
Competition is no big deal.
50 years later, you have no free speech, you have no sovereignty, and you now have to contend with a voting bloc that wants your country eroded and destroyed, notably New York, with Zorhan Mamdani, who explicitly stated in his campaign he will advocate for illegal immigrants against federal law.
This country will not exist if we maintain your description of how things should be run.
We have to have borders, and we have to have a working body that is able to exist without having to compete with peasants in other countries.
There is an enclave, Irania, I believe it's called, in South Africa.
Are you familiar with it?
andrew heaton
No.
tim pool
I believe it's called Irania.
It is a white private landmass that no one can live there.
It's private unless you come to them and they approve you to live there.
And they said, we don't allow any hiring of labor from outside the community because what ended up happening was the money started leaving and the trade started slowing down.
So they realized it may be more expensive to hire a neighbor to do the work, but they have to, otherwise it all starts falling apart.
I am sick and tired of the laissez-faire libertarian.
I will squeeze what is left of the American way of living and watch this country become a communist woke cesspool by importing people who don't care for our values and displace our voting blocks because in the short term, the graph goes up.
andrew heaton
So I take umbrage with the idea that me promoting freedom is a communist plot.
I'm very much.
tim pool
I'm not saying that.
I'm saying that you are short-sighted and you are ignorant of the ramifications of how let's go back.
andrew heaton
So like a lot of people would like, would hearken the 1950s as sort of the high watermark of American manufacturing.
tim pool
Well, that's only because we blew up Germany and Japan.
andrew heaton
It is.
And if you were to compare us to the 1950s, we're more prosperous than we were in the 1950s.
If the 1950s existed now and it was a separate country we could visit, we would view it like Poland right after the Soviet Union came down.
We've become far more prosperous.
tim pool
Prosperous.
Let me ask you a question.
How would you describe the state of political affairs in the United States?
andrew heaton
Political affairs?
unidentified
Yeah.
andrew heaton
As in like romantic trists or just like politics in general?
tim pool
Like how would you describe the political state of the United States right now?
unidentified
Very bad.
tim pool
Very, very bad.
Why?
andrew heaton
Great question, Tim.
I actually wrote a book on this called Tribalism is Dumb.
I'll be happy to give you a copy of it when we leave.
That is a salient question.
That's something that has been going on in the United States now for 20 or 30 years.
It's been going on in other countries as well.
It's been going on in Europe.
The countries that have a pre-distributist economic model, which is kind of what you're advocating for, of let's keep wages higher at the base floor through higher minimum wage, things like that, they're going through the same thing as well.
So I would infer that that's not an economic.
tim pool
I don't advocate for a minimum wage.
andrew heaton
Forgive me.
I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it's.
tim pool
There's market competition within our borders and an expected standard of living for an American.
So you have eliminated that borders.
andrew heaton
Distributivist, what I mean is trying to force corporations on the front end to pay more through some method.
We're stopping competition.
tim pool
That's cultural enforcement.
andrew heaton
Rather than redistribution, right?
So, like France and Germany and Spain have pre-distributed models which are also going through these things.
So, I would infer that it's not primarily economic.
I think it's largely technological.
I think the period that we're living in is probably more similar to.
tim pool
I largely agree.
andrew heaton
Yeah.
So, that's the main thing.
But let's talk about immigrants for a minute.
So, I stand by my position.
I think free trade's been good.
I think it's been great for the planet.
I think it's been good for America.
But I don't want to hijack your show and only talk about that.
Let's talk about immigrants for a minute.
You brought up Biden.
Biden made a horrible mistake during his presidency where prior to Biden, if you wanted to seek asylum in the United States, you would come to the United States.
They would go, thank you very much.
Here's your number.
We'll call you when you're up for asylum status.
Go back to the last safe port of entry.
He reversed that and said, you can come into the United States and then just hang out until we call you.
That opened up the floodgates.
That's why there was a ton of people that came in under Biden.
tim pool
Well, I mean, it's more than that.
CBP was ordered to bring anybody in.
They were ordered that if a child had a number with them that they knew was to a sex trafficker to ignore it and just send them to the sex trafficker.
andrew heaton
Sorry, can you repeat that?
tim pool
CBP was ordered that if they knew a child was brought across the border for sex slavery to deliver them to the sex slavery.
Yeah, I'm not here stumping for what Biden did was not an accident where he said, oops, see, I made a thing go wrong.
It was an intentional plan where they were ferrying illegally trafficked children on planes into various red states for years.
Tennessee, this erupted a major scandal when a U.S. plane loaded a bunch of child trafficking victims onto a plane and flew them into Tennessee.
There was one plane that landed in Westchester, New York, and a journalist filmed it coming out and interviewed one of the guys and he's like, they're making us do it.
Biden was assisting.
So we can go back to the cartels.
Biden was bringing these trafficking victims into this country intentionally.
Now, I think the obvious answer is that there are a series of economic faults that are affecting the United States ever since 2008.
In the liberal worldview, the numbers improving is better than anything else.
And this is a disease for which all political factions find themselves afflicted.
Even Donald Trump talks about affordability and how we've conquered it, and he's completely wrong.
But it's because you can't win political power unless the people feel comfortable.
So the Democrats' play is graph must go up.
In the short term, we'll win.
In the long term, this country will burn down.
And a great example of it is, since the ICE operations kicked off, the Republican Party, the polling has shown Latino voters are bleeding from support for Republicans because many of these voters have family and friends who are here illegally.
And they would advocate by vote for people who are not citizens of this country who are going to receive benefits or at least contribute to the cost of running a nation that comes from the public coffers.
You will not survive if you have someone in your home voting to give away what you have to people outside.
Government Intervention Limits 00:16:29
tim pool
That has never made sense and it won't.
And it's going to keep getting worse because we are a nation of graph go up, give away our manufacturing jobs, open up our borders to illegal immigrants.
Slowly but surely, you end up with enclaves and voting blocks that say, fuck America.
Zohran Mamdani being an example of a man who ran for mayor and explicitly stated, I will protect the criminals who broke this country's laws from those in the federal government who seek to enforce these nations' laws.
When you get to the point where our largest and most prosperous city is now voting for a man who explicitly states we are de facto outside of the federal government, your country is breaking apart.
So I would describe the political state of affairs in this country as civil strife with the political assassinations and murder.
I would describe what we're talking about with tariffs and immigration as components of the erosion.
I do believe that the internet plays a role in that it keeps the masses ignorant and hateful.
The left, I believe, is substantially more hateful while believing they're not while screaming in people's faces and beating and murdering people.
And it's only going to get worse.
And unfortunately, we have liberals and libertarians who could stand up and say, and that's why I like the Mises caucus guys, because they outright say, close the borders.
andrew heaton
And that's like, I mean, Milton Friedman, peace be upon him, said years ago, you can't have a welfare state and an immigration state, right?
And so like, like, I don't.
tim pool
But the liberal mindset is as you're describing it.
We need the short-term gains to make money today.
I don't care what happens tomorrow.
And I could go to the American people and say, the world that you live in will cease to exist, but boy, will it be fun riding that bomb straight out of the out of the Enola Gay?
andrew heaton
Yeah, we do disagree on this.
I mean, I don't think it's short-term to buy something cheaper.
Like an attorney that buys things from a grocery store has a trade deficit with his grocery store, but the attorney is still making more money than the grocery.
tim pool
The difference between the grocery stores is minimal.
You're talking about other countries that have peasant labor we cannot compete with.
And listen, I, as a company owner, when we launched our previous Boone skateboard, it was the, I think it was the Beasts.
No, no, no, it was the weapons.
Weapons was the last one.
50 BMG Timpool blueprint model, the Cody Mac single action revolver.
We made $30,000 in two hours selling those skateboards, American-made, American-pressed.
andrew heaton
Great.
tim pool
To the people who ordered them, I apologize.
It's taking so long, but you paid American and be patient because you know you're doing the right thing.
I could have made $40,000 if I went to China instead.
And actually, $10,000, I could have bought myself a gold necklace.
andrew heaton
Hey, I applaud that, man.
tim pool
I don't want a gold necklace.
I want my country back.
andrew heaton
That's terrific.
I don't want you to restrict other people's rights.
But if you want to do that, that's fine.
And I applaud that you want to hire American workers for it.
tim pool
So it's a right.
Explain what you mean by that.
andrew heaton
I think you should be able to have a voluntary relationship with anybody unless you are actively hurting them.
So like, if I want to marry five people, I'm fine with that.
I don't care.
If I want to have an economic relationship with somebody, that's also fine.
The government shouldn't be stopping me from having economic relationships.
So if you want to hire only Americans and only have your product made in America, I applaud that.
And there are a lot of people, as you just pointed out, who would purchase that.
I mean, like, you just made a case that people will buy American even if it costs more, that you're able to compete within that market despite having cheaper boards.
That's great.
And that to me indicates.
tim pool
We sell our boards cheaper than the big companies do.
Despite making their boards cheaper, they sell them for more money.
phil labonte
But I think the point is like America's not just a market.
Whereas I understand property rights and I understand freedom of interaction, freedom of association and stuff.
America's not a market.
America's not, you know, the United States isn't an economic zone.
tim pool
And I think it's, it's, I got to be completely honest.
I think what you're describing in some circumstances is treasonous.
Okay.
So, and I know you'll want to clarify, of course, and you will present the caveats because any reasonable person would, but certainly not an American could have a voluntary relationship with a member of the Chinese Communist Party.
andrew heaton
Could somebody date a member of the Chinese Communist Party?
tim pool
I'm talking about an economic relationship with an American and a CCP member.
There are some caveats.
Would you not agree?
andrew heaton
Maybe, but like by that same token, if an American wants to visit Cuba, I'm fine with it.
tim pool
If an American wants to visit the community, let me try this again because you're going to apologize and say you were wrong.
Do you believe that is there any circumstance in which an American can't engage in a voluntary exchange with a CCP member?
andrew heaton
Yeah, there could be some circumstances.
If we were at war, if there were specific elements that like I wouldn't allow somebody to buy like rape drugs or something like that.
tim pool
Would you allow a publicly funded university to give away trade secrets that was paid for by the American public to the CCP?
andrew heaton
Probably not.
unidentified
Why not?
tim pool
It's voluntary.
Why are you restricting the right of the individual with knowledge to simply have a conversation?
andrew heaton
Well, I think in that case, you're talking about public funding, though, right?
tim pool
No, Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.
If a private university is a university professor knows in his brain something, they had a study at a university.
He read the reports.
That's it.
He just knows it.
It's not confident or classified.
Why can't he go to China and take payment from these Chinese people so that the government of China can have access to the same?
andrew heaton
For the same reason that a governor or a member of the executive branch couldn't sell American secrets to the CCB despite the fact that they're an individual.
tim pool
See, now what you've described is there are for trade protectionism only when you think so.
andrew heaton
No, if there were a private individual that came up with some kind of IP and they wanted to sell it, that would be fine.
Like if, I don't know, Elon Musk wanted to sell something to China, we could run it through CFIS.
Like there are ways to go through in terms of looking at national security, but if an individual within a corporation, within a private part of the sphere, wanted to do trade relations with a communist government.
Agreed.
tim pool
So you think there are certain instances where the government should stop a person from voluntarily exchanging with another person?
andrew heaton
Yeah, but the default state is going to be you're allowed to do whatever you want.
tim pool
All you've just said to me and everyone else is my ideological worldview supersedes yours, and I respect that you believe that because I think mine supersedes yours.
I believe I'm correct.
andrew heaton
I think we both think we're correct.
tim pool
If you would assert the government has the authority to stop someone from doing trade, I would agree with you.
andrew heaton
If you want to put restrictions in place on what the government can do with other governments or even other corporations, I'm fine with that.
But like, yeah, unless you've got a specific...
tim pool
American auto manufacturers can't go and cut deals with foreign manufacturers to hire cheap slave labor.
You and I agree.
You are for trade protectionism.
andrew heaton
For the private sphere, I'm all in favor of that.
tim pool
Like, where I got hung up was if we're talking about— So Raytheon, a Raytheon employee can go to the CCP and say, I know how to build a nuclear weapon launched from a Hellfire drone.
Let me give that to you.
You're going to say no.
My point is this.
You are simply asserting if it benefits me, it should be allowed.
But there are certain things where the government should stop voluntary exchange.
andrew heaton
Tim, in all honesty, in all complete sincerity, do you think that is what I'm saying?
tim pool
Yes.
andrew heaton
You think that I'm saying that there's no appreciable difference between saying you can't have a tariff versus sell nuclear secrets to the CCB?
tim pool
What you are missing is that you have in your mind the limiters on when you believe the government should stop voluntary exchange.
You have already explained scenarios in which the government should stop and even punish voluntary exchange.
You have made the argument that you disagree on where that line should be in some areas where I agree the line should be a little bit further.
Yet at the same time, you've argued the government should not do it.
So you are wrong.
You do believe the government should.
You just want to get cheaper stuff where I think the cheaper stuff you're getting hurts us.
andrew heaton
I don't think I have to be an anarchist to oppose to not have any kind of government regulation.
Like let's just pull some government.
tim pool
We agree.
There are instances where the government should stop and even punish individuals who engage in certain economic exchanges.
andrew heaton
If they're selling nuclear secrets, sure.
Drugs.
I mean, going back to the cartel thing, if you really want to lower the cartels, I would figure out a way to decriminalize most drugs.
tim pool
The answer is yes.
Right.
In terms of you believe the government should stop some economic exchanges of some economic exchanges, but like.
andrew heaton
But just pointing out that I want the government occasionally to do things doesn't justify every instance of government interaction.
tim pool
Point is, you said previously you think people should be free to do these things, but you, of course, don't mean it.
You just think that you should be able to engage in economic behaviors that'll benefit you and how you see the world, and I think you are destroying this country by doing so.
Now again, we would both agree an individual taking a state secret or general information that would benefit China in destroying this country.
The government should stop that, right?
andrew heaton
Hey Tim, let's back up.
I don't want to do any character attacks here.
I don't want to hurt anybody in America, like I'm a guy in a three-piece suit.
If Trump does 10, 15% tariffs, the reality is it's probably not going to impact me.
I can take that on the chin.
I think that it's actually going to hurt manufacturing in the long run because it's going to hurt intermediate parts.
It's going to affect how much stuff costs for people that are poor.
I'm concerned about them.
In the short term, I can make a good faith argument and I I would hope you could concede to me that, while I might be wrong, i'm still operating in good faith.
tim pool
Yes, and you are wrong because again, my point is simply your.
The premise of your argument is, government shouldn't restrict voluntary exchange.
andrew heaton
That should be the default state.
tim pool
You don't actually agree.
andrew heaton
There are going to be exceptions to that.
In the same way that the government shouldn't kill people, but there are instances where it's going to have to kill people, that doesn't mean, I think, that the sheriff can gun down anyone.
tim pool
The only real argument is the sectors in which you believe you should be allowed to trade with foreign countries, and I disagree with you on that.
I believe that, in the short term, giving away our manufacturing i'm sorry, I believe that in giving away our manufacturing to Mexico or China or other countries will benefit us.
Benefit us in the short term, as consumers now get a cheaper product and the company gets a higher profit margin.
In the long term, you eliminate the jobs, you eliminate the culture.
Cities begin to dry up, families stop happening because they can't buy food and they can't seek shelter anymore, and now we are looking at a population collapse, a financial crisis, an ideologic, ideological conflict.
Long term, with tariffs, people start to rebuild factories begrudgingly.
They start to bring back these jobs.
Now young people who didn't have a job before make one start generating these jobs.
Interest and culture starts to rebuild and is within a confine that.
Short term, it may get a little bit more expensive.
Long term you will have a self-sustaining ecosystem, an economy, household management.
The argument that we had was simply based on where you want to draw the line and where I want to draw the line.
ian crossland
Yeah, you said something about that.
If it's cheaper, then that's good, or something like that.
andrew heaton
Right, i'm very much on the on the side of the consumer.
ian crossland
I run on cheaper, at what cost?
Because it's not all fiscal.
You know, something might be very cheap to order from the Barbarian leader, but then the Barbarian leader gets money and he poisons your Dna and kills you.
You know, in seven years, because you funded a danger that you didn't, just because it was cheaper, you were actually funding a negative that you didn't let me.
tim pool
So you have to ask you, uh, is it good that China is buying up our farmland?
andrew heaton
I'm not terribly bothered by that, like so.
So there is a thing we've got uh, called a Ciphius, which is the Committee ON International.
I can't remember what it is, but basically the Senate has a committee where if there's going to be a foreign entity buying some American industry, some kind of company, it has to go through approval for them.
So, for example, there was a big kerfuffle a few years ago where a Saudi company Wanted to buy, I think, the port of Los Angeles.
What that basically meant was they were just going to be the company in charge of logistics for it.
They weren't in charge of security.
Sophius looked at it and went, This does not pose a threat to American security because American security is still handed by America.
tim pool
So, sort of like farmland.
You're not bothered by China owned by the United States.
andrew heaton
No, because that would be the easiest thing to seize.
If we ever gone into a conflict, like, let's say we go to war over Taiwan, we could immediately appropriate that.
Now, if they started like poisoning the land or something, sure, absolutely ban them from doing that.
tim pool
How would you know?
Well, what about you've given control of your food supply to a foreign country or a large portion of it?
andrew heaton
What percentage are we talking about here?
Because I'm guessing it's less than 1% of American farmland by China.
tim pool
Let's pull up the number so we can get it.
andrew heaton
If we're talking about 20%, we can talk.
But if we're talking about like 1%, that's probably just like investment diversity for the Chinese, in which case, they're spending money over here and we're getting more money.
ian crossland
What does that say?
tim pool
What is that money?
What do you mean by we get more money?
andrew heaton
It means somebody went, I can make more money having this.
tim pool
3.6% of U.S. agricultural land is Canada owns one.
Wait, what?
Canada owns one-third of our land?
What?
andrew heaton
Wow.
I think that's right.
tim pool
Hold up.
Canada holding the largest share, about one-third of foreign-owned.
No, no, no, of foreign-owned land.
unidentified
Right.
andrew heaton
Okay, that sounds more right to me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
If you can find.
tim pool
No, no, no.
China owns 0.2 of all land.
andrew heaton
I'm not bothered by 0.2.
tim pool
I am.
I'll tell you why.
So they are producing food in our food supply.
So the way the food chain works, most people, I assume that this.
The farmland is going to be the bottom, which means small amounts of that are going to spread out to a much larger amount of our food supply.
It theoretically could be greater than, depending on what they're growing, you don't know for sure.
But let's say that 0.02% actually is, it's hard to know.
Some of the agriculture will be for things that are, you know, animal feed or whatever.
Actually, you know what?
I'll say this.
It didn't even matter.
If China begins genetically engineering or infecting food with something not intended to kill a person overnight, but to say lower their ability to reproduce by 1%, China's on the 100-year, thousand-year plan.
Why would we allow a foreign adversary?
We're not at war, but they are an adversary.
They're listed in federal law as an adversary.
They're codified as one.
Why would we allow them any degree of control in our food production?
andrew heaton
You know, if you could find any evidence that they were doing anything untowards, I would be happy to.
phil labonte
They've released multiple blights in the U.S. that have attacked our they were shipping viruses.
tim pool
They're running illegal biolabs.
They've caught numerous Chinese CCP members transporting drugs through airports.
Well, I meant more than viruses throughout the year.
andrew heaton
Sure, but like just focusing on the agriculture.
If, Phil, to your point, if they are bringing blights that are affecting farm and crops and things, then sure, stop them.
But just the idea that foreigners can own farmland doesn't bother me.
phil labonte
But if there's some additional thing going on, I think that who the foreigner is matters.
I think that China is China's an adversary, right?
They're not rivals.
We're not partners.
China is an adversary of the opposite.
andrew heaton
Maybe we should get selling debt to them then.
tim pool
Let's make behavior.
Yes.
So again, the bigger picture here that I see is you're sitting in your rocking chair, sipping your delicious sun tea as the Chinese peasant comes over and asks you, Sa, what would you like to eat?
And you're like, this is great.
And behind you, they're cutting, they're tearing down the walls of your home.
They're pissing and crapping all over the place.
And you're like, I don't care because I'm getting it good right now.
And then there's a 17-year-old guy watching it happen, going, bro, why are you doing this right now?
And you're like, who cares?
It's great.
So an example of that is China, for instance, has birth tourism.
So I forgot the number.
There's a story recently.
There are companies in China that fly women to the United States to give birth and immediately fly back.
There's something like 30,000 in the past couple of years.
These are U.S. citizens now exploiting our laws for one purpose.
In 20 years, in 30 years, they're going to come back as full-fledged citizens, but loyal to the Chinese Communist Party.
They are building up control in our country.
And their strategy is we can conquer these bloated gluttons because they love it.
Right now, they are more than happy to sell out this country for a short-term gain.
30 years from now, they will be our servants.
andrew heaton
I would be happy to have a constitutional amendment that restricts citizenship to people that are descended from a citizen.
tim pool
And that's all well and great.
And we agree, except the issue is that right now that's not the case.
Zero-Sum World Risks 00:02:35
andrew heaton
I'm not.
Okay.
I mean, if we're talking about 0.2% of farmland, like that is a small enough thing that you could maybe compel me to go.
phil labonte
The location matters what land.
tim pool
Yeah, they're out there outside military bases.
unidentified
Okay.
andrew heaton
So like, like, if you can make a compelling argument that it's going to impel national security there, you might.
tim pool
Why let any of it happen at all?
andrew heaton
You know, like, I'm just, so, so I do care about comparative advantage because I think that that's kind of found.
tim pool
How many refugees do you have in your house?
andrew heaton
Just to finish, comparative advantage, we're getting kind of to the root of economics, right?
That's why I'm big on that.
We don't live in a zero-sum world.
I don't want to go back to a zero-sum world.
We tried that for 2,000 years.
It's bad.
tim pool
Okay, I got a question for you.
andrew heaton
But with like 0.2%, if I'm like an eight on comparative advantage in terms of how much I care, I'm like a three on this 0.2% farmland thing.
So like if like I could concede that I'm not as bothered by that one.
tim pool
All right, I got a question for you.
How big is your house?
andrew heaton
I don't know.
I've got two bedrooms.
tim pool
Two bedrooms?
Yeah.
Using both of them?
andrew heaton
Yeah, I use one to sleep in.
I use one to film in.
tim pool
Oh, so you got extra space.
It would economically benefit you if I could get one of my friends from Guadalajara to come and stay in your place.
We're going to do that whether you want it to or not.
andrew heaton
And they're going to stay in my place against my will on my private property?
tim pool
Well, that's what's happening in the United States.
Is the United States not the of the American people?
andrew heaton
So if we're talking about immigration, here's what I want.
I want wide gates and high walls.
I want there to be good security to make sure that bad actors don't come into the United States, that there aren't gangs coming in, there aren't criminals coming in.
But I do want there to be a lot of activities.
tim pool
I got a question.
I got a question.
It's a blizzard outside.
unidentified
Yeah.
tim pool
Terrible blizzard.
And there's a woman, as I knock on your door as a pregnant woman.
And she says, can I please come in and shelter from this terrible storm?
Would you let her in?
unidentified
Probably.
All right.
tim pool
So you let her in, and then she goes, oh, I'm going into labor.
I'm having my baby right now.
Should that child be allowed to own a piece of your house 20 years later?
andrew heaton
No, but again, like I would say, like I'm happy.
I think the basic idea of birthright citizenship based on soil was a bad idea.
tim pool
Agreed.
So considering the fact that it is still in place and we are experiencing this attack from an adversary, should this woman come to your house and say, let me in so I can give birth?
andrew heaton
Would you want to cut off all immigration?
phil labonte
I would.
I would a decade at least.
andrew heaton
You would cut off all immigration for like in every sector for at least 10 years, yeah.
phil labonte
I would say we don't need to have any more immigration.
We've got, you know, we had, what, 20 million or so people that came to the country.
We have to sort out who can stay and who can go or who needs to go.
I personally think that there's no problem with having a 10-year moratorium on immigration and we deport all people that are illegal.
10-Year Moratorium on Immigration 00:02:53
tim pool
What is America?
andrew heaton
Be more specific.
tim pool
I could define the country very, very easily.
unidentified
Okay.
tim pool
I'm asking you, when someone asks you what America is, what would you say?
andrew heaton
The United States of America is a sovereign state in North America based on classical liberalism.
tim pool
I would say that America, the description is that what is it, that a nation is a people and a country is its borders or something that affect.
So I would argue that the United States of America is a people with a long-standing history and tradition and unified culture that was built from rejecting one tyrant 3,000 miles away in exchange for 3,000 tyrants one mile away.
Just to quote the Patriot, brilliant.
We have an American tradition built on the wars that we've fought, the things that we've built.
These things are deeply rooted in a variety of sports and foods.
We are told now by a large faction of people that we have no culture, and that is rooted in what the left describes as multiculturalism.
So what I'm seeing happen right now is when I look at this picture of Donald Trump talking about tariffs, he represents the nation of America.
We are two distinct worldviews, a multicultural democracy, which does not believe in classical liberalism or American tradition.
And we are a constitutional republic that does.
Libertarians occupy a weird space where I believe that, and I'm not saying you're libertarian, I'm saying libertarians because they swing the vote a point or two, exist in the space of it should be legal for me to do and I'll vote for it.
Like the principal moral foundation of libertarianism is my right to liberty.
unidentified
Yeah.
andrew heaton
So what we gay marriage and pot, good.
tim pool
What we have, and right.
So I think gay marriage is a really great example.
Support for gay marriage is dropping for the first among Gen Z.
It's the first generation where we see an inversion because boomers were opposed, Gen X was kind of okay.
Millennials were largely okay.
Gen Z went the other direction.
And interestingly, Gen Z dropped dramatically from like 2020 to 2022, which is indicative of a couple things.
One, that there was a cultural shift among Gen Z, which is much harder to accomplish and less likely.
Or two, younger Gen Z moving into adulthood already held anti-gay marriage views.
The gay marriage is a great example because the liberals said, let two guys or two women get married and do their thing.
What's the worst that's going to happen?
I mean, it's not like they're going to be teaching about sodomy in schools, narrator.
They started teaching about sodomy in schools.
So the conservative argument has largely been, okay, we've got to get rid of all of this because we can see that the slippery slope wasn't a fallacy.
It was a fact.
The actual American traditional, the constitutional republicanist, American liberal view is gay marriage is fine.
We just have to ban the sodomy stuff in the schools.
Conservatives go back and say, no, no, no, reverse it because it was proven bad.
The left says, you're all fascist.
Why Retrain Workers? 00:15:36
tim pool
We're going to keep doing more.
The question is, how do you end up with a voting bloc in your country that wants to do away with your own way of life?
These people are not America.
andrew heaton
To back up a little bit, so Phil, you would have a tenure moratorium.
You want some amount of immigrants.
Is that right?
tim pool
Indeed, yes.
andrew heaton
So like, I don't want unlimited immigrants.
I do want more immigrants.
I think part of the reason, pre-Biden, that we had a big influx of immigration over the last 20 years is we basically set the speed limit too low and we're surprised that people are still.
tim pool
You want more immigrants than we have now?
andrew heaton
Yeah, but I want them legal and I want to focus it on ways that are going to be productive in America.
tim pool
There's an estimate of 50 million non-citizens currently in the United States that are either permanent residents or illegal immigrants.
andrew heaton
So I'd love to get more H-1B visas in.
I also like, I flew down to the border.
tim pool
So like Dunkin' Donuts and stuff?
Like Dunkin' Donuts?
andrew heaton
For H-1B?
tim pool
That's what they're doing, yeah.
I don't want to besmirch the good name of Dunkin' Donuts, but there were store clerks for donut shops and bank clerks that were H-1Bs.
andrew heaton
I would love to be a brain drain on the rest of the world and have the smartest people in other places come over.
unidentified
That's not H-1B.
tim pool
You're talking about 0-1.
You're talking about like 0-1, 0-2.
You're talking about K-visas.
H-1Bs are not brain drains.
andrew heaton
Then I digress in the H-1B specifically, but I would love to be a brain drain on the rest of the world.
tim pool
H-1Bs are, we can't find anybody in this country, so we'll look somewhere else.
andrew heaton
Yeah, I think they do that a lot with software and things like that.
tim pool
Which is all fake.
It's all a lie.
andrew heaton
I flew down to the border two, three years ago.
I hung out with the Border Patrol.
I hung out with people down there.
Talk to farmers.
Farmers are an incredible disadvantage if they want to be legal at the moment because it's incredibly difficult to hire people legally through the process.
One of the things that we've got in the country is we require if you have legal immigrant labor, it has to be so high as to try to make it competitive for Americans doing it.
And they still suffer for it.
They still can't get people in, right?
We actually don't have enough people that would do basic agricultural stuff in the United States.
tim pool
Let me ask you a question.
How do you feel about war with Iran?
andrew heaton
I don't want to go to war with Iran.
tim pool
Do you know why we are going to war with Iran?
andrew heaton
We've wanted to get rid of the Ayatollah since the 1980s.
I don't know.
What do you think?
tim pool
The Ayatollah's largely object to the liberal economic order, the petrodollar system.
They want to trade oil in other currencies, and they are not letting up on threatening the Red Sea, which, of course, are access to the Suez.
The United States global hegemony is largely prefaced upon the fact that we control all trade.
We police the seas.
We're the world police.
The problem with the United States and the petrodollar system is that we don't produce enough.
We don't export enough.
In order to maintain a strong economy, there's a bunch of factors, but one simple component is you need to produce more than you import.
You need to make more stuff than you're buying.
andrew heaton
It goes back to that zero-sum thing.
Like an attorney and a doctor have a trade deficit with their grocery store, and they're doing fine.
So aren't we the second largest exporter?
tim pool
So let's just make it real simple for you.
If you make $100 a week and you're spending $120, what happens to you?
andrew heaton
Yeah, that'll go bankrupt.
That's not a trade deficit, though.
That's a spending deficit.
tim pool
So back to the point I was making, irrespective of, I don't know what point you're trying to make.
In order for a simple component of what an economy is strong is when it is selling more than it's buying.
Like anyone else, you are making more money than you are spending.
You then have more money to invest.
And another easy way to explain it is they estimate that, you know, this, today you need like $150,000 a year to live what was once described as middle-class median.
So you get two weeks of vacation, you got clean clothes, you got healthcare, you got a place to live, you can have a family.
Well, if you make $150,000 a year, you're not really saving if you are living comfortably.
You're going to cut back on some things you might think you need, but you'll save a little bit.
If you're making $250,000 a year after taxes, you're going to have probably like 50K to invest, allowing you to grow your wealth.
This is why it's important for countries to sell more than they buy.
The U.S. is the exception.
The reason for it is we don't do that, but we will kill you if you don't spend our money for oil.
So for, let's just say like Russia, back when it was solely the petrodollar system, they would have to use rubles to buy dollars so they could use the dollars to buy oil.
And the United States exported just the fact that we'll kill you if you don't lose our money.
That is a wonderful system.
If you believe in free trade, open borders, it works perfectly so long as you are willing to blow up other countries and assassinate world leaders who try to build a global order outside of the U.S. dollar.
As the BRICS nations begin expanding and Iran seeks admittance, I think they may have gotten it with BRICS, the U.S. largely is getting pissed off.
The war in Syria largely is about the Qatar-Turkey pipeline, where the U.S. said, we want to build this oil pipeline from Qatar through Syria, Turkey, into Europe because Russia is charging too much money.
They control about 20% of natural gas through Gazprom.
Syria responded that Vladimir Putin is our ally and for this we won't allow you to do it.
So the U.S. said, then we will kill you.
At first, they negotiated and then they refused.
Simply put, I believe it is fair to say the liberal economic order system, Swift Payment, IMF, big banks, all of that is built around the United States is the world police, the police of the oceans and international trade.
And for this reason, Americans will live like those in Capitol City, the hunger games, so long as we're willing to drop bombs on the people who try to break that system.
Notably, Muhammad Margadafi, who wanted to create an African union and trade gold dinars for oil, and Saddam Hussein, who wanted to trade oil for a Euro.
And so the U.S. said, now you're going to die.
And then they did.
andrew heaton
So I think we have growing degrees of overlap now.
I'm unabashed free trader.
I'm very much free trading.
tim pool
You cannot exist without a strong economy that produces more than it's buying.
andrew heaton
Immigration.
I'm not for open borders.
I do want more immigrants to come in legally, but it sounds like you also want legal immigration.
So we're talking about a question of degree there.
Yeah, I'm an intervention skeptic.
So I don't want to be bombing other countries if they're socialists.
tim pool
If you want to maintain a strong American economy that engages in the trade practices that you believe in, it requires us to blow up anybody who would oppose the petrodollar system.
andrew heaton
In order for me to be in favor of free trade, I have to blow up anybody that is not using dollars.
That's the position.
tim pool
So let's elaborate.
Because if you want to give our manufacturing to a foreign country so we become an import nation, we are not producing enough to sell to the rest of the world.
How do we maintain an economy when we are spending more than we generate?
Right.
unidentified
Okay.
andrew heaton
So here, I think you've got a point in terms of deficit spending.
We're spending way more money than we have.
tim pool
And we survive because we will kill anybody who tries to break that system.
So the debt doesn't matter if we've got guns pointed at everyone's head, right?
Like, I'll put it this way.
Let's say you take $100 from your buddy and you go and blow it on cocaine.
And then he comes to you and says, where's my money?
And you pull out a gun and say, your money's gone.
What's he going to do?
He's going to put his hands up, turn on, and walk away, and your debt's cleared, right?
That's America.
andrew heaton
I don't.
So I'm worried about the national debt.
We might have some commonality there.
The national debt's separate than a trade deficit.
They're not the same thing.
With the national debt, like most of the debt is held by Americans.
And so that is something that could happen.
It's not like we can hold the world hostage.
tim pool
If oil is produced in the Middle East, they have to purchase U.S. dollars first.
andrew heaton
Because we're the international reserve currency, yeah.
tim pool
What does that mean?
andrew heaton
It means that whenever anybody's doing an international transaction, they're using dollars to do it.
So if China's purchasing something, China has to give us money, right?
unidentified
Right.
andrew heaton
It's also part of why we're able to get away with so much deficit spending because we can inflate it away to other people.
tim pool
That's exactly the point.
The only way we maintain an export, I'm sorry, an import economy is by forcing everybody to give us their currency.
And then what do we do with their currency?
We buy their labor and resources from just the fact that we – listen, we don't produce the oil, right?
Like we do produce a lot of oil.
But let's say a barrel of oil is made in Saudi Arabia.
Let's say China, easy example, wants to buy that.
Up until recently, they started trading in Wan and Saudi Arabia got off the petrodollar contract.
But historically, China wants to buy that oil from Saudi Arabia, for which we have no involvement whatsoever.
What does China have to do first?
They come to the United States and say, we want to buy this barrel of oil.
We need dollars to do it.
So we're going to give you Chinese currency for literally no reason.
And then we're going to get dollars in exchange to buy the oil with.
andrew heaton
It's a really good gig.
tim pool
And so what happens is the U.S. now has access to Chinese labor for nothing.
When you do that, you can maintain an import economy.
andrew heaton
I think that, again, I think you're right in terms of the deficit, because if we've got a spending deficit and other people are using our currency, when we inflate it, they bear part of that burden.
So we're able to do that.
tim pool
Again, I'm not talking about that.
andrew heaton
Yeah, but like with the trade deficit, though, like, okay.
I'm saying you've got a doctor.
tim pool
But I'm not talking about any of that.
I am saying that China has to tithe to the United States in order to buy oil.
We get access to Chinese labor in exchange for nothing.
We do not give China anything other than we print a dollar and say, we'll give you a dollar for your wand, which means when you want to, you want to buy that scarf off Ian.
And I have a gun pointed at you, and I say, you've got it first.
Give me something of yours before I'll let you trade with Ian.
And you say, but you haven't done anything.
I say, I don't care.
I got the gun.
andrew heaton
Yeah, I'm not for bombing other countries if they want to.
tim pool
This is how we maintain an import economy, sending our jobs overseas.
We tell everybody, use the dollar or die.
That means we get access to your labor if you want to buy oil from someone else.
And they do it.
And that's why we've got, how many aircraft carriers do we have?
17 or 10.
phil labonte
I think 11.
tim pool
11.
andrew heaton
Aren't we the second largest export economy?
Have I got that wrong?
tim pool
We might be a very large.
My point is, sending our factories overseas and the jobs happening somewhere else means we don't have workers that are going to be producing things and trading amongst themselves.
So how do we provide a laptop to a person who is providing very little to the rest of the world?
andrew heaton
Would you oppose companies that can automate on those same grounds?
Like they can have a thousand employees, they can replace half of them with robots.
Would you stop that by law?
tim pool
It depends on the circumstances of which company and where.
andrew heaton
Most manufacturing in the United States went away through automation.
tim pool
Indeed.
andrew heaton
Compared to trade.
Trade is minimal.
tim pool
First, it would entirely depend on which company, which factory, the degree of necessity for the product, and it would also the sector of the economy and how much it would be damaged.
So the easy answer is usually automation is great.
it's got to be tapered.
So if we've got little robots that are going to come and make shoes from now on, then we have to have some kind of tapering process by which when a company brings, so yes, government must intervene.
Otherwise, what you end up with is shantytown slums and depressions.
So a great example of this is the accusations against Tom's shoes.
Are you familiar with Tom's shoes?
andrew heaton
I've heard of them, but you're going to have to fill me in on this.
tim pool
The accusation is the story was that they said, for every shoe of ours you buy, we donate a pair of shoes to someone in Africa.
andrew heaton
I know that much, yeah.
tim pool
Destroyed their economy.
Because what happened was these small towns had shoemakers, cobblers.
And one day, the cobbler had no job.
People stopped coming and buying from him because the people all had clean American cheap shoes.
And so the economy was destroyed by free.
When a factory says, we're going to fire 100 people and we're going to bring in robots to do the job, you now have 100 people who no longer have customers.
The customer was the factory who said, we'll pay you in exchange for your labor.
Now you have a whole bunch of people who can't feed their families.
They end up becoming homeless.
Some of them may get drug addicted.
A lot of bad things happen from that.
We don't want economic destabilization to happen overnight.
So we don't want companies to be able to just fire 100 workers and bring in a bunch of robots.
andrew heaton
In this instance, you're concerned with the speed of the transition rather than the transition itself.
Indeed.
Okay.
So like what normally happens with automation is somebody does a job, a robot is made, the job goes away, but more jobs are created.
And there are people that are kept in the pinch.
In what way?
What jobs?
tim pool
Coding jobs?
andrew heaton
Farming, for example.
tim pool
So a factory assembly worker knows how to farm?
andrew heaton
To finish, what I'm saying is you on net, automation produces more jobs than it gets rid of.
tim pool
But it doesn't.
See, this is again, GraphCo Up macroeconomic.
Just ignoring that.
andrew heaton
Tim, to let me finish.
If factories work, you can't farm.
tim pool
Answer that, or your point means that it makes no sense.
andrew heaton
I am acknowledging that there are people that are in the pinch and we need to have things for people in the pinch.
tim pool
But what I'm saying is universal basic income.
andrew heaton
Maybe, I don't know, job retraining, something.
tim pool
Job retraining is fake.
andrew heaton
But in terms of automation in general, I shouldn't say in general, on the macro, over time, produces more jobs than it gets rid of.
And it creates better jobs in the process.
tim pool
This is all macro argument nonsense that just manipulates people and not understanding what is actually going on in our system.
So the question is.
andrew heaton
Be horrible if we all go back to being farmers and how old are 90% of the population.
tim pool
No one is saying that.
How old are you?
andrew heaton
I'm 42.
tim pool
42.
Will you ever be as good at writing music as Phil Labonte?
unidentified
No.
tim pool
So when you lose your job to automation, what job retraining can you get if the only job available is rock star?
Now, obviously, it's not rock star, but the point is this: a 50-year-old assembly line worker who gets fired because a robot came in is not going to learn to code.
It's never going to happen.
So, what do we say for that person in this economy?
There's going to have to be some protectionism.
andrew heaton
My point, Tim, was not that there's going to be any problems with it.
It was just that overall, you still want progress, automation, dynamicism to happen.
You want to make sure that it's slow so that people can adjust.
Am I ready to go?
tim pool
And what I am sick of is the manipulation that we experience.
Learn to code is a great example.
Hashtag learn to code.
And this is what I think largely motivates MAGA, the people who understand this.
Someone says to you, No, no, if we bring in the robots, we create more jobs in the long run.
And that sounds really good to someone who doesn't know what you just said.
What you said is 1,000 people will become homeless, destitute, and their families will starve, but 1,000 Indians on H-1Bs will get coding jobs.
andrew heaton
So I'm open to the idea that we need to have things in place to make sure that the transition doesn't happen so rapidly.
If you were to automate all cars tomorrow, you would have a lot of problems, right?
The driver is the most common job in America.
My point was not that, you know, screw them.
That's not what I'm saying here.
What I'm saying is that overall, you do want to have that dynamism and innovation, right?
tim pool
And so the issue.
andrew heaton
And it's overall right now, me being 42, I'm from Oklahoma.
It's good that I'm able to podcast and talk with you.
It's good that we're all doing this.
If you were living 100 years ago, we'd all be farmers.
It's a good thing that we've been able to make those jobs more efficient.
And I see that as a corollary to the free trade issue, where we're able to get more money, we're able to specialize more, we're able to be more productive.
tim pool
I think we hit the nail on the head with this point.
And it kind of exemplifies everything in that when you give away a job, a factory, what you are saying is 1,000, when that factory decides to close down, 1,000 people work at the factory will now be destitute.
But don't worry, 1,000 Chinese laborers will make one-tenth of what they were making, and China will be very happy to receive that.
Free Trade vs. Automation Impact 00:02:43
andrew heaton
Is it okay for companies to go bankrupt?
Is it okay?
Okay, so you're all right with that.
tim pool
Well, I mean, that's a natural element of failure, and it happens.
unidentified
Okay.
tim pool
And so the difference here is sometimes businesses fail, and that's sad.
A business choosing to lay off a thousand people to hire a thousand Chinese at a tenth of the price.
andrew heaton
Or robots.
tim pool
Or robots is evil.
andrew heaton
What would you do to stop the automation?
tim pool
You don't stop the automation, but you have to have a tapering plan in place, not just for the sake of the individual whose life would be ruined.
But for the sake of your own country, so your economy doesn't collapse.
andrew heaton
Pitch me on this, because if you get laid off at 50 and your job no longer exists, it's going to be very difficult to find a job with a comparable income to get training.
tim pool
That's not going to happen.
andrew heaton
I don't disagree on this, right?
And so what would that policy-wise, what would you do to taper it?
What would that look like?
tim pool
Like you're saying if we have a bunch of Optimus robots that can make cars, how will we taper it off?
unidentified
Yeah.
tim pool
And you can hire, you can only bring on 10% of the Optimus bots per year or something.
andrew heaton
Okay.
tim pool
Or every two years.
andrew heaton
There would be like an automation law.
ian crossland
You can only replace X amount of your workforce over because the Chinese are going up zero to 100.
tim pool
Hey, when you have free trade and no protectionism, exactly correct.
ian crossland
C-Dance, they're just at fuck IP law.
They don't care about any of them.
They're going all the way, disrupting the entire planet.
tim pool
And this is why if the U.S. does not find a way to stabilize itself and rely on itself, we are cooked.
IP law is gone because China doesn't care and there's no restrictions.
phil labonte
They had a massive attack on OpenAI just today.
OpenAI announced it.
The three of the biggest Chinese AIs basically were just pinging it millions of times, basically stealing the code from you.
tim pool
And then I'm sorry, but you're like, I don't care if China owns our land.
And it's bad that they're having birthright citizenship, but it's happening.
ian crossland
My general problem with this whole thing is that if it's just like free trade, kind of laissez-faire, like path of least resistance, that insidious machines within government will take advantage of that.
Easy like yeah, we're just going along to get along, and literally the Chinese will just buy us out and then own us with, like yeah, short-term gain, long-term losses and the.
tim pool
Let me ask you this question, if the Chinese Communist Party came to you and said, i'll give you 10 million dollars today to sell out your country no, but this is what so many people are doing, that that that's the whole point.
If we're looking at the, automation is a great point and and Ian's point is great, if we have free trade at the same time as automation, we're basically saying to the American worker, you'll be left holding an empty bag overnight, learn to code, good luck.
The only problem is the H-1bs are bringing in, are bringing in the coders, because Americans don't know how AI can code better than a human AI can go.
Chinese Influence Threat 00:02:22
tim pool
Now we're vibe coding, Andrew.
ian crossland
Like, can you define what you mean when you say free trade?
Also, it's a very common word.
I'd love to hear a quick definition.
andrew heaton
Uh it, it just means you can, you can freely purchase goods from other countries and that you're you're not impeded with tariffs.
Um, so if, if you're gonna sell watermelons for two dollars, I can import the watermelons for two dollars, minus the logistics of getting it from you to me.
ian crossland
My concern is about corporate corporatocracy and a corporation taking control in a country and then serving as the de facto government, like Amazon.
And if, if Amazon can do whatever it wants and sell to anyone on the planet because that's my right that they'll just make it cheaper and more robotic and less human and then all of a sudden they'll own the food supplies and they'll own I mean I I i'm, i'm glad Amazon's around.
andrew heaton
Like Amazon's made my life far easier and it it provides tons of jobs.
phil labonte
I'm pretty prosper.
andrew heaton
They they, I think, start at a pretty high, high rate compared to a lot of other jobs.
It's above minimum wage.
So, like I, I don't think like, maybe maybe there are other examples you could give but like Amazon to me is all alphabet taking control of the economy.
tim pool
We absolutely got to grab super chats and rumble rants, but this was a lot of fun.
So you know I, I get wrapped up in it.
But let's, let's grab this because we can continue in the uncensored platform.
ian crossland
Yeah, in the after show, go to the Rumble after show, because we're going to keep going.
tim pool
All right, let's grab some of your, your comments, and is as well, it's already 953.
We only got a few minutes.
I apologize, andre.
Uh, Tugulescu says Handlin's Razor is the psyop to cover for other psyops.
ian crossland
What is that one Handlin's Razor?
andrew heaton
Can I jump in because I know this one Handlin's?
Okay, so Occam's Razor is the idea that the simplest solutions or the simplest explanation is probably the most likely.
Hanlon's Razor is, do not attribute to malice or conspiracy that which can be understood by sloth or incompetency.
So basically, if there's ambiguity and it might be a conspiracy or it might be an idiot, assume it's probably an idiot indeed.
tim pool
Uh, it was literally.
phil labonte
Wolf says, no no, it had nothing to do with you, all right.
tim pool
Wolf says, can we get the British guy with tourettes to attend the state of the Union, please?
Everybody knows what happened.
andrew heaton
No, i'll take you as well.
phil labonte
Of course not.
ian crossland
I heard about this guy screaming profanity with then.
tim pool
You know what happened.
unidentified
What do you mean?
ian crossland
I don't know, I didn't look into it.
unidentified
Is it?
tim pool
Was it Bafta or something?
What was it?
phil labonte
I'm not sure what it was, but he was real, like nasty, what he screamed, or something.
tim pool
Yes, he did.
phil labonte
No sorry no, no words came out, all right.
Questioning Jobs Offshoring 00:05:16
tim pool
Omega Resetsu says for the anti-tariff people, tariffs are why Japan and Korea built plants in the?
U.s.
Instead of floating cars to the U.s.
I say we need to tariff Apple by 300 until domestic consumption equals 70 of production.
andrew heaton
Uh, I appreciate the the kind feedback to your listener.
Um, if you were to look at how much it would cost to manufacture an IPod in the United States, I think it would increase by something like 10,000 or not.
IPod, IPhone.
It increased by like $10,000 or so.
So I think it would be prohibitive if you tried to do that just here.
tim pool
Here's the best part.
If we didn't have the petro dollar, it would cost the exact same thing made in Korea or China or at Foxconn.
And without maintaining a balanced economy and proper spending, I'll put it like this.
If the petrodollar system collapses, your laptop is going to cost you 10 grand.
Like the fact that we get laptops for $1,000 as a stable, bro.
I went to Best Buy last week and there's a 90-inch TV for like $300.
Just like, geez, man.
You know, sometimes I question whether or not we should go to war with Iran, but then I see these TVs and I'm just like, well, you know, we can bomb some of them, right?
unidentified
I'm kidding.
tim pool
But that's how we do it, baby.
That's how we do it.
Mason says, this is why I hate libertarians.
How many jobs can be sent to foreign countries before there is no more country?
And when you would argue against it, the graph kept going up.
I think the argument, an interesting argument, would be, what if 100% of jobs were done elsewhere?
andrew heaton
That wouldn't work.
tim pool
Why not?
andrew heaton
Because then you wouldn't have any income at all.
tim pool
Okay, so what percent of income do you need to maintain your jobs going to foreign countries?
andrew heaton
Again, I go back to the example here.
Your doctor and your attorney have a trade deficit with their grocery store.
It doesn't mean that they're imperiled.
We're still a gigantic manufacturing economy.
The difference between us now versus us in the 50s is that we do high-end stuff.
We still make things in the country.
We export a tremendous amount.
tim pool
We export the largest exportable.
What percent of American jobs could we give away before we collapse?
andrew heaton
I don't know.
tim pool
But there is a number.
andrew heaton
Sure.
tim pool
Well, right, because you said if we gave away all our jobs, there's no country anymore.
andrew heaton
So to give away the jobs would imply that we're being able, we're doing it because we're purchasing things.
We'd need money to purchase the things to begin with.
So I don't think you could get to that point.
tim pool
Well, why not?
phil labonte
Government prints the money.
tim pool
I mean, look, the cars manufactured in China are sold in other places.
andrew heaton
Yeah.
tim pool
Or cars made in Mexico get sold in other places.
andrew heaton
In the same way that you can automate jobs and you're going to destroy jobs, but you're going to create more jobs in the process by getting cheaper parts and having jobs created in the process of automation.
Oh, I mean, like what we're doing right now.
I mean, like, again, if we were to go back to like 1940, more like one of us would be a farmer in the room.
One of us would probably be doing like ledger sheets that don't exist anymore.
I definitely wouldn't be able to do my job like a social media manager.
tim pool
I question whether or not any of that is a good thing.
andrew heaton
I don't want to go back to 1900.
I think it's good that people can operate in all sorts of different careers that didn't exist 100 years ago.
tim pool
Largely disagree.
andrew heaton
Where would you want to go back to?
tim pool
I don't know about going back anywhere, but I think it's a problem that people are fat, lazy, slothful, locked in their houses and don't have anything to do.
They've become listless and without passion.
They've sought ideological addiction to fill the holes in their world and they've become violent psychopaths.
I saw a video of a guy who went to an ICE protest stand in Minnesota where they were giving away hand warmers, gloves, coats, food, hot chocolate.
And I thought to myself, how incredible that we have such tremendous abundance that people literally don't have to work and can get free food and clothing just for saying an idea outside.
That's a bad thing.
I think people should actually have to have some attachment to their lives and reality in order to exist.
But the country right now is at this inflection point where I would argue it's massively detrimental to get to, let me do this because we're talking about Star Trek.
We got to go in two minutes.
I'll say one thing real quick.
If we had replicators, Civil War would erupt in two seconds, and then this country would become just like the whole world would erode.
But we'll save that.
I do want to grab at least a couple of the super chats here.
I don't want to leave people hanging because we only have a minute left.
Let's see.
Dave the Devil Chicken says, Tim, the reason we let Fast and Furious happen is to let the 21st century version of Manifest Destiny happen where we go in and take over.
So you're making a similar argument that it was to like that Ian said, to create an enemy that we could then say, oh no, now we have no choice.
ian crossland
It was the first day I ever thought of that in regards to the cartel.
tim pool
But yeah, I mean, I think it's because they're running illicit activities for intelligence organizations.
ian crossland
Yeah, I thought it was they were just trying to track the guns and find who the higher ups were in the org, but now I'm starting to think like, geez, they create the enemy now if they can go conquer.
tim pool
SA Federale says, every low-T neckbeard who properly pronounces every foreign word has been steadily screaming, but my Mexican food.
It's glorious.
Yay-yo hasn't been good since 09 anyway.
Taco Bell Automation 00:04:32
unidentified
Woohoo!
ian crossland
Wow, hit him where it hurts.
phil labonte
Mexican food's best at Taco Bell.
ian crossland
Yeah, avoid that white.
tim pool
Americos.
That's not Mexican food, dude.
All right.
Let's see.
ian crossland
Human up in you.
tim pool
TT says, people like this is why everyone is betting on AI to replace everyone's job.
If no one has a job, there are no customers to pay for your AI slop.
They kill their golden goose.
They are only focused on short-term gain.
It's a really interesting example I brought up on the show because they started to automate fast food restaurants.
And the response that I get in these arguments is, yes, but AI is going to make it easier and cheaper for everyone to get these things.
And I said, who is going to AI can't buy the tacos?
If you don't have customers, if there's no people, then what are you going to do?
The argument was, there's a population collapse.
There's going to be a lot of lost vacant jobs, and they're not going to be able to fill them.
And the argument is, we'll get AI and machines to automate these things.
And then I said, who's going to buy from your Taco Bell if there's no people to eat it?
You can't have robots coming and do it.
But in fact, that's the plot to that video game about the cat.
You play that one?
phil labonte
About the cat.
tim pool
Yeah, he plays a cat in the future.
And there's robots everywhere that were created by humans to serve humans, but humans all died off.
So now the robots just kind of facilitate the non-existence of whatever they're looking for.
And you're a cat.
Run around.
We're going to go to the uncensored portion of the shows when we talk about Star Trek as it relates to communism and free trade.
So smash that like button, share the show with every person in your life, even if you don't like them.
You can follow me on X and Instagram at Timcast.
Andrew, do you want to shout anything out?
andrew heaton
Yeah.
I host a program called the Political Orphanage.
I welcome your listeners and viewers going over to do that.
Tim, it was a pleasure to be back.
Ian, Phil, and Carter, nice to see you again.
unidentified
Thank you.
andrew heaton
You as well.
ian crossland
The mighty Heaton.
Ladies and gentlemen, Heaton is mightier than the sword.
I like that your last name is a noun.
andrew heaton
Thanks, Ian.
ian crossland
My pleasure.
And as always, follow me at Ian Crossling.
Go to graphene.movie and check out the new documentary that I've been building with 6-7-Kevin and Andreas Exerdas, graphene.movie.
It's hot.
And sign up with your mailing list.
You'll get notified when the movie's live.
The trailer's live now, but before the show wraps, I want to give it to Carter Banks.
carter banks
Oh, thank you.
But first, let's.
unidentified
Okay.
carter banks
What's up?
Carter Banks Everywhere.
I was out of order a little bit.
ian crossland
I did it because I want to go Phil's last piece.
unidentified
Oh, okay.
tim pool
Yeah, but also there's like some weird guy sitting behind Carter you.
andrew heaton
This is Brann.
carter banks
Anyway, yeah, follow me at Carter Banks Everywhere.
Phil, what's up?
phil labonte
I am Phil That Remains on Twix.
The band is all that remains.
You can check the band out at allthatremainsonline.com.
We are going on tour this spring.
We start April 29th in Albany.
You can get tickets at allthatremainsonline.com.
You can check out our music at Apple Music, Amazon Music, Pandora, YouTube, Spotify, and Deezer.
Don't forget the left lane is for crime.
tim pool
Brandon's actually the real CEO of the company.
ian crossland
Brandon.
tim pool
And this is like a, he's come in to make sure everyone's doing their jobs properly.
Watch it.
You got to watch out, Ian, because he's been watching.
ian crossland
He's watching laughed.
tim pool
All right, everybody.
We're going to see you all over at rumble.com/slash Timcast IRL.
We're going to complain about Star Trek, but largely just as an excuse to talk about communism.
So thanks for hanging out.
phil labonte
Started doing rehearsals.
tim pool
What is up?
Welcome to the uncensored portion of the show, where we can say things like gay.
phil labonte
Say other things.
tim pool
Phil.
phil labonte
What?
Gay.
Gay.
Faggots.
tim pool
So anyway.
That's allowed on Rumble.
phil labonte
Dirty word.
Prime Directive Paradox 00:15:45
tim pool
You know, in Star Trek, they have replicators.
andrew heaton
They do.
tim pool
Yeah, if that happened, people would be slitting each other's throats.
But I think that was actually a component of the story they told in Star Trek that Earth fell apart, got super violent, people were killing each other.
But I actually think that, so in Star Trek, you know, Captain Picardy, Next Generation, they all have this, but he goes, tea, Earl Gray, halt.
andrew heaton
Earl Gray, halt.
tim pool
And then it makes it a drink.
If we had that, holy fuck, bro.
Could you imagine what it would be like if there was a replicator that people could just use?
Now, I have to imagine, because these liberals are like, did you not?
Star Trek was communist?
It wasn't.
They traded gold with the Frankie.
Literal gold.
phil labonte
Latinum.
tim pool
Latinum was like the fake, it's platinum.
Like what?
Latinum was like the whatever fictional interspace thing.
But there's literally, I'm watching the episode with the wormhole and the frankie.
You're like, look at all the gold we have to trade.
It's like, yes, literal gold.
We can't make it.
You can't replicate it.
Imagine a bunch of antifa outside of a ice, and they're just with a replicator and they're replicating weapons.
If we had replicators, also, I got to be honest, Star Trek doesn't make much sense, but it's okay.
phil labonte
They'd be replicating.
andrew heaton
We're done argument economics.
We're talking about Star Trek.
tim pool
This is about economics.
andrew heaton
Because I want to talk economics to Star Trek for a minute, but I'm not doing it to goad you into a particular position.
Can I run my theory of Star Trek economics by you?
unidentified
Yes.
andrew heaton
So they're like, because I hear this, that they're communist, right?
And I'm like, they're not communists.
They're post-scarcity.
tim pool
Indeed.
andrew heaton
For the reasons you bring up.
Oh, scarcity.
And it gets interesting in that there are economic transactions that take place within the Federation.
And the first season happened time.
But yeah.
So what would you have in a world where you can create any good at any time with infinite energy?
You would still have things that have emotional value that can't be replicated.
phil labonte
Hookers.
andrew heaton
So hookers are a prime example, Phil.
You could go to the holodeck.
You can go to the holodeck anytime you want.
But if you want to have sex and regular hooker, you have to pay for that, right?
Or like, I can replicate a bottle of wine.
unidentified
You know what?
andrew heaton
I can't replicate a bottle of Picard Chateau wine.
So I think that they've got like, you could replicate it, but if you wanted the emotional value to it.
unidentified
Right.
tim pool
You wanted it handcrafted from the generational land owned by the Picard family.
andrew heaton
So you've got like an Etsy economy going on along like they basically got rid of everything and then there's like Etsy swaps going on.
tim pool
Now I'm going to challenge your presumption here and argue it's actually not a post-scarcity liberalism as people argue.
It's an authoritarian dictatorship oligopoly.
andrew heaton
You know what?
My friend Christian Britschke, who's a contributor at Reason, has that same position.
He thinks that it's like a fascist something like that.
unidentified
Yeah.
Yeah.
ian crossland
So who are the oligops in that?
tim pool
Well, the Picard family owns a landmass to produce wine in France.
It's generational.
And because they don't on earth use currency because of replicators, there's no means by which you can acquire that land.
It is owned by landed aristocracy.
So you can call it, I wouldn't call it feudalism because you don't have these servants, but labor still does have to be done.
andrew heaton
Oh, I never thought about that.
The land thing.
That's a really good point.
How do you exchange land in a place without currency?
tim pool
And they state explicitly in Star Trek they don't use currency.
The Federation uses, has Federation credits.
They do trade raw materials.
Dilithium can't be replicated.
And Latinum is an extremely dense metal that is very valuable.
And they use these things to trade with other non-Federation planets.
The Federation itself, though, is arguably post-scarcity because of replicators.
However, there are landed aristocracy on Earth.
And that means there's no means by which a person born on Earth can ever acquire those land unless somehow you can convince a person to give up their generational wealth, which they have no reason to do because they can replicate anything you can replicate.
ian crossland
Yeah, it sounds like they're under military control occupancy.
They would have revolted hard against a permanent set of landowners.
tim pool
And that's exactly what it is.
I mean, again, Picard has a family-held generational winery.
andrew heaton
This is why capitalism is great.
What displaced feudalism?
Capitalism did.
Like it was able to, like, now you can break apart all these old feudal monopolies.
tim pool
One could argue, because it's fiction, we can fill the gaps where the gaps need to be filled.
And that is, well, they don't use current, when they stated we don't use currency, they meant, generally speaking, for things like food and shelter.
That being said, there are still things of value that can be performed, which you will get Federation credits for, and credits can be used to acquire land.
There are probably many things, like you mentioned, with emotion of value for which someone may actually want to use credits.
So you don't need food, you don't need shelter, but I want that limited edition Ian Crossland guitar autographed by Ian Crossland, and he doesn't want to part with it.
So there's got to be a way to transfer things that still have value.
andrew heaton
I want to go eat at Benjamin Sisko's dad's restaurant.
There's a limited amount of seats, so there has to be some way of adjudicating that scarce resource.
tim pool
Have you seen what they have done to Benjamin Sisko?
andrew heaton
No.
tim pool
He is a deity now in Starfleet Academy.
unidentified
What?
andrew heaton
Really?
Oh, because he's with wormhole profits.
tim pool
No, well, yes, but it's that he's revered as such.
His picture can't be displayed.
Probably because they couldn't get the rights.
andrew heaton
No, because that would be kind of an interesting, like, we're going to take on Islam from a different angle.
I doubt that's what they're doing, but.
tim pool
Oh, it is.
So here's the thing about Star Trek, the new Star Trek.
Men are always bad.
White guys are always stupid and evil.
And the women are always correcting them.
ian crossland
Oh, my God.
tim pool
Not kidding.
There's one exception.
They say the Federation was a colonial empire, and that's why it collapsed.
Not joking.
That's Starfleet Academy.
There's one exception.
Benjamin Sisko is a legend and he's a hero.
And do you know why?
ian crossland
Because he's black.
tim pool
Indeed.
ian crossland
Literally in the show, not okay.
tim pool
But clearly when they disparage the federation and everything that it was and call it colonial and evil, but Benjamin Sisko.
andrew heaton
It's the colonialism claim.
Because like the Federation bit, yeah.
Like it's, it's a, I'd push.
tim pool
We will let a planet die before we intervene.
andrew heaton
So I, um, I like Strange New Worlds, and like Pike is a very strong character and he's a white guy.
tim pool
Play prequels, just make it stop.
unidentified
Okay.
ian crossland
Defair.
Colonized like crazy, the Federation.
Have they been doing that?
Is that part of the gig?
Is that colonizing all of that?
tim pool
No.
andrew heaton
So like flavor-wise, not talking about political economy, but flavor-wise, the Federation is sort of a combination of Google and the European Union and space.
Yeah, that's sort of how it comes out.
phil labonte
It really is.
andrew heaton
And so it's not an aggressor.
There are some fringe instances where like the Cardassians and the Federation go to war and then we end up doing like a swap on territories and that creates like terrorist cells.
ian crossland
Do they colonize uninhabited lands?
unidentified
Yeah.
ian crossland
Yeah.
andrew heaton
They'll just like they'll do that, but they won't, but they but they believe in the prime directive, so they won't they won't colonize anybody or even make contact with anybody that's pre-warp.
tim pool
Even if they would die.
unidentified
Yep.
tim pool
But here's what I love: the Frankie are pre-warp.
unidentified
Are they?
tim pool
They acquired warp through trade, not discovery.
So the core of the argument is the only reason that the Federation engages with societies once they discover warp is because it is inevitable that they will encounter each other.
And it's best that when they discover a planet on the verge of warp capabilities to make first contact.
So there's one episode, it's brilliant, where they come to a planet, which is totally an allegory for the United States and Earth.
A planet where the president of this country is deeply invested in scientific advancement and heavily invests in the development of warp technology, despite the fact they are still very culturally religious, not yet advanced to the point where they would even accept the idea that there is other life in the universe.
And so the Federation greets them and says, you are about to become warp capable.
We've seen your tests.
We come from a planet called Earth.
We represent the Federation of Planets.
And ultimately, the president decides they cannot announce first contact because they pushed too hard technologically without culturally developing first.
andrew heaton
What series is this?
tim pool
That was TNG, I believe.
andrew heaton
It was TNG.
unidentified
Okay.
tim pool
Yeah, let me look up which episode that is.
andrew heaton
Yeah, I believe they just, I don't remember that particular one.
You don't know Tim Sandifor by the way, do you, Tim?
tim pool
Who's that?
andrew heaton
Tim Santafer, he's over at the Goldwater Institute.
He's the most fun guy to talk to about Star Trek.
phil labonte
Oh, really?
andrew heaton
He loves Star Trek.
He loves the original series.
I want to say he hates TNG, but he sees this really strong moral variation that takes place because the original series is all written by World War II veterans.
Like they're all like, America's good, communists are bad, period.
And so Kirk, who embodies this, will go down to a planet and go, your God is a lie.
I will destroy your idol.
Bang, bang.
Your idol's gone.
Be free.
And you get into TNG, it's 1980s.
It's very relativistic.
unidentified
So Picard is like, we would never deign to instruct your people in terms of their own.
phil labonte
Picard, you got that.
andrew heaton
Who are we?
And like, Kirk is like, no, you will be free.
I will free you.
I will destroy your false idol.
You will be forced to make decisions for yourself.
unidentified
Whereas Picard is always like, no, no, everyone's right in their own way.
andrew heaton
And so Santa Fer does a great job of elucidating the differences between them.
tim pool
Season four, episode 15, First Contact.
andrew heaton
Okay.
tim pool
They go to planet Malcor 3, and Riker is there as an observer, disguised as a Melcorian, and then he gets injured.
And they go to the other side.
andrew heaton
Was that the one where he bangs the probably?
Yeah.
tim pool
Because he's always trying.
And then, you're right.
And then one lady is like, I think he's an alien.
And she's like, take me.
I want to be with an alien.
andrew heaton
That's what I was like, yeah.
tim pool
And then the science leader decides to leave with the Enterprise, leaves the planet.
andrew heaton
Tim, would you scrap the Prime Directive?
tim pool
Absolutely.
andrew heaton
Me too.
ian crossland
Really?
andrew heaton
100%.
I would, yeah.
ian crossland
Why?
What is it, first of all?
andrew heaton
So, really?
phil labonte
I have strong feelings about this thing that I don't know what I'm saying.
andrew heaton
I've fallen in love with you all over again.
So the Prime Directive is meant to shield primitive societies from cultural contamination.
That's the idea behind it.
So anybody that's pre-warped that's not like sufficiently modern, we will refrain from ever letting them know that we exist for fear that it will alter the trajectory of their development.
tim pool
But not just that.
They'll kill themselves.
ian crossland
Will they prevent someone else from telling them?
Yeah.
andrew heaton
If it's within Federation space, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, like they wouldn't go, they wouldn't go into Romulan space or whatever.
tim pool
So the issue is, if you went to the North Sentinel Island, right?
unidentified
Yeah.
tim pool
And gave them all fully automatic.
unidentified
Right.
tim pool
What would they do?
ian crossland
Exactly.
andrew heaton
But the flip side of it, though, is like there's in one of the, we shan't speak of them too much, but in some of the reboots, at one point, a planet is going to be destroyed.
tim pool
This is in TNG.
andrew heaton
Is it in TNG?
Yeah, yeah.
Like there are instances where, I mean, like, it was in the reboot.
tim pool
It was the intro to one of the reboot films where there's a planet of primitives with the volcano's about to erupt and kill everybody.
andrew heaton
And they go in and they fix it and they violate the prime directive, thus saving everybody's life.
I would argue that it's a good thing.
tim pool
And it was the stupidest plot because the way they did it in TNG was substantially better.
And that was they were investigating a planet with unusual volcanic activity when data receives a simple broadcast transmission from a little girl saying help.
And then he argues to Picard, the planet, the people are going to be destroyed unless we intervene and we can intervene very easily.
But they say the prime directive prevents us from intervening in the planet's natural development because they are pre-warp.
Data then says, I would argue that the transmission to us calling for help gives us a pretext.
And Picard then makes the argument, we can consider that an SOS for which we can't intervene.
andrew heaton
See, this is one of the other things in Star Trek is it's the prime directive.
It's meant to be like the highest constitutional law.
They violate it constantly.
For good reason.
But they're constantly violating it.
And they do all this hemming and hawing.
And then they're like, well, we really need to.
So it really actually has no point.
tim pool
We do got to go to callers, but I want to say one quick thing about why Deep Space Nine is so good.
Deep Space, Starge of the Next Generation was hippy-dippy liberal bullshit.
I loved it, though, but it was like...
andrew heaton
Everybody's dressed really effeminate whenever they're in civilians.
tim pool
It's not just...
It's not just that, but they're on an exploration vessel with a thousand, I think 1,000 people.
It was a capacity of the Enterprise.
And there's an episode, one of the best episodes ever written, where they accidentally, the Enterprise C accidentally goes through a rift in space-time, appearing briefly in the future.
And by leaving the attack on Kittemer, it alters the course of history in a way that the Klingons and the Fenterprise, the Federation, never form an alliance.
And now the Klingons are defeating the Federation in the future.
When the ship goes through the time rift and history changes, the Enterprise inside turns dimly lit in black with a skeleton crew.
Guynan, as she is an extra-dimensional being, notices something.
unidentified
It's off.
tim pool
And she goes to Picard and she's like, something's wrong.
Where are the families?
He goes, families.
This is a military vehicle.
There are no families aboard.
andrew heaton
Families on the Enterprise.
tim pool
Yeah.
And so the interesting thing is, the pretext of Next Generation is that we have abundance, limited scarcity, and almost no war.
They do introduce war with the Kardasians, but it's limited.
With DS9, you get the Dominion War.
And this is where the hoity-toity liberal ideals of the Federation are being fucking crushed.
And the fucking amazing quote from the Kardashian, what's his name?
andrew heaton
Garrick.
tim pool
Garrick.
When he says, he's like, you know, they assassinate a senator in a false flag to trick the Romulans into joining the Federation, joining the war on the side of the Federation.
And Garrick says, and he says, what should I do?
And he's like, well, what you need to do is just sleep easy, knowing the Federation has been, or the Alpha Quadrant has been saved, and all it cost was one ship, a Romulan senator, and a Starfleet commander self-respect.
And it's just so fucking good that it's just such good writing.
And this is like, what is this, like 2000 or like 99?
andrew heaton
It's like, yeah, that episode, I think, because I think it stops 2001, 2002.
tim pool
I think it was like 01 and Voyager went to like 03 or something.
andrew heaton
I think you're right.
ian crossland
Oh, sorry to interrupt, but you guys would strip the Prime Directive.
Wouldn't that have the cataclysmic effects on foreign...
They must have that directive set up for a reason.
tim pool
Yes.
That's because the idea being if you go to a planet with nation states, limited cultural development, like what would happen right now if aliens landed in the United States?
Russia would be able to blow up everyone else.
No, no.
If aliens landed in DC, Vladimir Putin would make an announcement.
We will not tolerate advanced technologies going to our principal adversaries, and we are prepared to fire every nuclear weapon to preserve our existence.
ian crossland
It throws the balance of power off is what their argument is.
tim pool
Exactly as I told Joe Rogan.
The reason aliens don't make themselves known and the reason why the powerful elites want a one world government is that you cannot join the Galactic Federation until your planet is unified under one governing authority.
ian crossland
Is that true?
andrew heaton
I think it'd actually be good if aliens landed.
tim pool
Yes, Ian, the aliens came to me.
ian crossland
But there's never been a planet that was like multi, you know, multifaceted.
andrew heaton
This is one of the other weird things about Star Trek is like every planet is monolithic.
tim pool
Yes.
andrew heaton
Like every other planet has like one religion.
tim pool
Well, that's not necessarily true.
andrew heaton
Yeah, there's a little variance, but we see a much more monolithic interpretation.
tim pool
They go to the planet where the terrorists are attacking everything.
Why Gay Guys Bang Other Dudes 00:10:06
tim pool
Remember this one?
ian crossland
I think I remember that one.
tim pool
Yeah, there's terrorists underground, next gen, and then data asks Picard, you know, if terrorism is so wrong, why is it so effective?
Like people do it.
And Picard's like, yup.
Like, that's the sad reality.
But Voyager was silly, but Deep Space Nine was basically screaming in the face of these liberals who got fat and happy and just said, we can be in these, you know, we don't need to build space.
We don't need to build weapons of war.
Which the only thing I really, really like about the reboot into darkness is that was the premise that the general was secretly building insane weapons, a gigantic black mock of the enterprise.
And he was like, there are threats out there.
And the Federation has grown fat and complacent.
And we are not arming ourselves for these wars, which is funny because considering this takes place in the prequel in an alternate timeline, we know full well he was correct.
There's an alternate timeline that's explored, I think, and it might be the original series, the Terran Empire.
andrew heaton
Yeah.
tim pool
Where there's an alternate timeline where Earth becomes a dominating authoritarian empire.
andrew heaton
A weird one where you only achieve promotion by killing your superior.
There's some problems with it, but it's this interesting, like dark, evil version of the Federation.
tim pool
All right.
We got to get callers because we have five tonight.
So we'll start with Half Poor Nova.
What's up?
What was your favorite Star Trek episode?
unidentified
I never watched it.
It was more of a Star Wars fan.
tim pool
Oh, well, hold on.
Woke have killed both.
phil labonte
I think that you're going to go to the next one.
unidentified
No, definitely.
phil labonte
I think we're going to go to the next caller now.
Thanks for calling in.
I'm just kidding.
I'm just playing.
I'm just playing.
I'm just kidding.
unidentified
So I came to call in about your guys' opinion on gay people in general.
Not the LGBTQ movement, but just like whether or not somebody is gay.
tim pool
Oh, gay people are gay.
phil labonte
Yeah.
ian crossland
What makes you gay, though?
andrew heaton
Gay people suck.
tim pool
Gay people suck dick.
andrew heaton
I eat my hot dogs from the middle, but the second they make a gay pill, I'm going to take it just to see what happens.
I think I do pretty well.
Look at me.
ian crossland
I'm going to answer the question, but you got to define what makes you gay.
Wanting to fuck a dude or actually fucking him and not enjoying it.
Like, is it the physical act or is it the desire?
andrew heaton
Well, by that logic, all women I've ever had sex with are gay.
unidentified
Do you have to fuck a dude to be gay or is it the act of love?
Because like is that like the only thing that makes you gay?
ian crossland
That's a question.
unidentified
You're just not attracted to women.
tim pool
Okay, so if you were, listen, there are gay virgins.
Like there are people who are explicitly attracted to guys who've never hooked up with a guy at all.
And for one, often you can tell they're gay, but they will outright say that they experience attraction to guys.
Like, that's being gay.
The other thing is, there's an interesting question about if a dude gets fucked by a dude, is the dude who gets fucked gay?
It's a question of why he was, right?
Because if you're in prison and you are raped, you're not gay.
You're a rape victim from a gay rapist, right?
unidentified
Yeah.
tim pool
Okay.
Now, if you enjoy it, if you were somehow raped in the other direction in prison, which seems odd, I'm assuming you were into it.
andrew heaton
That would be slightly oppressive.
Color, I am anti-rape and pro-gay.
That is my position.
ian crossland
Pro-very gay.
unidentified
I guess my next question is: can you differentiate between the cultist degeneracy and just people who just love other people?
Is there a is there now?
Of course.
I'm sorry not to make it an entitling question, but is there a difference?
tim pool
Of course there is.
I think Tim's made this difference.
There's a handful of trans people who will come on the show periodically that we're friends with and they're good people and they're rational.
ian crossland
Tim actually lived in Boys or near Boys Town in Chicago where they were having Wrigleyville, but these gay parades.
And it was like, it's not about gay.
You realize pretty quick, it's not about gayness.
It's about fucking sex.
It's about naked dudes showing sexy.
tim pool
So it's yeah, but that's that's the ideology stuff he's talking about.
I knew tons of people in Wrigleyville.
There was this one dude that I knew and it was really funny because we were talking about exactly this.
I think I was like 22.
I think I was like, I was 21 when I lived in Wrigleyville.
And this dude was like, I can't stand all of these like hyper gay people and the flags and like all the stores.
He was like, all they want to do is scream sex.
And I just like guys, you know?
And I was like, oh, I don't, but I hear you.
andrew heaton
So he's like a subdued gay guy.
And he has a problem with the glitter.
unidentified
That's the problem.
tim pool
He's a problem.
He's a problem with when you go to North Halstead, they have mannequins sucking each other's dicks in the glass window and they've got sex toy shops and they've got a bathhouse where guys go and do drugs and have sex.
Yeah.
And that's what the guy was complaining about.
He was like, because it's not just about, I want to go live with a guy that I like and we can do whatever we want, mind our own business.
It's that they've created an industry around degeneracy.
andrew heaton
I think every gay man is less competition for me and higher property value for you.
tim pool
Let's talk about how gay is too gay.
No, let's talk about Steamworks Chicago.
ian crossland
Yeah, that's what I meant.
phil labonte
Yeah, look.
tim pool
Steamworks is a very well-known gay bathhouse.
And they say, they say that, I mean, it's for dudes to have sex with each other.
And they say that drugs aren't allowed.
But everybody in Chicago just says they go in there, they do drugs, and they have sex.
It's for dudes to go meet up and have gay sex with each other.
andrew heaton
As long as the windows are dark and so nobody's having to watch, I'm fine with it.
unidentified
What's that?
Yeah.
I think there should be a legal just failed straight people who are only in it for the sex.
It's not really a lifestyle thing.
It's literally just a loser who can't pull a woman.
andrew heaton
I don't know.
I'm a failed straight guy and I'm not gay.
tim pool
I have no problem with two guys.
You want to go on Grinder and do whatever you want to do and you want to get a couple other guys involved.
Amen.
That's your business.
But an enterprise built around coalescing all of this debauchery, degeneracy, I think is horribly bad.
And I would argue that it promotes and expands massive STDs in the community.
phil labonte
Yeah.
unidentified
Exactly.
andrew heaton
I'm fine with it.
tim pool
I'm going to stress this.
I am not arguing that gay people are inherently more dirty.
I'm arguing they have frequently more sex.
phil labonte
Yeah.
No, no, when you have men who have a very who are very not or not very risk-averse, men that have a significantly higher libido, women have a lower libido generally, women have way more consequences when they to the possible negative externalities to having sex, pregnancy, et cetera.
All these things are built into women that prevent dudes from being able to just have sex whenever they want.
andrew heaton
This is why I'm rooting for that gay pill.
phil labonte
When you take the women out of it, then you have people that are far more promiscuous.
They have far more risky sex.
And that's why STDs and stuff like that are so rampant in the gay community.
It's not because it's because they take far more risks because there isn't the moderation of women.
And women moderate sex because historically, up until the birth control pill and modern medicine, women had a significantly higher chance of dying during childbirth.
They could get pregnant and they couldn't guarantee that the man was going to take care of them if they had promiscuous sex.
There were all these external factors that made women very, very concerned about who they had sex with because of all the bad things that could happen.
Men had none of those bad externalities.
They just didn't have to worry about them.
The only thing that men have to worry about is STIs.
And for the most part, when dudes are horny, they don't think about that stuff.
Men have always had the ability to, and when I say ability, I mean, you know, they haven't had the same repercussions.
It's not a big deal for men to have promiscuous sex the same way that women are.
So when you have men just having sex with men, you have almost no boundaries.
You have no limitations.
You don't have the moderating factor of women.
So men, gay men definitely have way, way more sex.
It's way more likely that a guy that's a gay guy goes to a gay bar and will bang some other dude in the bathroom than for a guy and a girl to go to the bathroom.
Not that it doesn't happen with women, but it's way more likely for guys to do that.
That means there's going to be more sexually transmitted diseases.
There's going to be more all of the negative externalities that men have to experience when it comes to sex at all.
They're going to have them on a significantly higher rate.
andrew heaton
Well put.
There's an Andrew Sullivan article that kind of goes through that as well, Phil.
And I agree with your assessment that when you look at sex amongst couples, gay men have the highest amount of sex, followed by heterosexual men, followed by lesbian couples.
And it's just like men in general on an aggregate level have a higher libido.
And if you have two people that have a higher libido, you're going to have a higher amount of sex.
phil labonte
Yep.
Women have been like, so when a woman, if a dude looks at a woman that she's not attracted to, it's not just like a guy when a woman looks at him that he's not attracted to.
It's like, he's like, whatever, you know, I'm not attracted to her.
A woman genuinely fears fear, feels fear because it's possible that that guy is going to attack her, right?
Rape is always, in all of human history, rape has been a thing.
And for women, it's significantly more dangerous than it's ever been for men.
So when a man is, when a woman comes up to a man and he doesn't, he's not interested, go away, whatever.
Maybe I'm flattered.
Thank you, whatever.
There's no threat there.
There's no threat of violence.
With a woman, there's a possibility, and this is built into them because of the way that we've evolved with women.
There's a threat of violence there, and they're afraid legitimately.
tim pool
We gotta grab some more callers, though, but did you want to shout anything out?
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