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Jan. 9, 2026 - Timcast IRL - Tim Pool
02:14:03
NEW VIDEO PROVES Woman STRUCK ICE Agent, Activist Says COME AT US | Timcast IRL

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Participants
Main
@
@straighterade
41:06
p
phil labonte
07:12
t
tim pool
01:12:41
Appearances
k
kaity passe
02:05
p
pam bondi
admin 00:45
s
stephen miller
admin 01:34
t
tate brown
03:40
Clips
d
donald j trump
admin 00:20
k
kaitlan collins
cnn 00:12
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Speaker Time Text
tim pool
Cell phone footage from the officer who fired the shots on the woman in Minnesota has been released, and it shows some interesting things.
First, it shows prior contact with activists and Renee Good.
It shows that they actually exchanged words, and you can clearly hear the impact on the hood of the car.
In fact, we were talking with a former prosecutor earlier who said, ooh, wow, that's not good.
So we're going to analyze this footage and go over what we're currently learning.
But there's quite a bit more pertaining to the footage being released, protests from across the country.
We'll talk about that.
new information on the ICE agent, and then bigger news, which I'd argue is actually much, much bigger, but isn't really, I suppose people don't want to talk about it.
It's not as interesting despite being more significant.
The U.S. has seized its fifth oil tanker.
So we are looking at dramatic escalation.
We'll talk about that.
And a whole lot more.
We've got a police shooting in Utah, more information about the individuals that were shot in Portland.
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Don't forget to smash that like button.
Share the show with everyone.
You know, we actually have a couple of guests joining us tonight to talk about this and everything else.
Ma'am, why don't you go first?
Introduce yourself.
kaity passe
Yes, my name is Kaidi, also known as Defender of the Republic.
I live in the captured state of New Jersey.
And on social media, I help educate and free the minds of the people online to the globalists out of the globalist matrix.
tim pool
And on the complete other side of that, would you like to introduce?
@straighterade
I'm not doing anything else cool.
My name is Aaron, aka Straderaid.
I live stream Monday through Friday on Twitch, YouTube.
I cover politics, D-React content, and yeah.
phil labonte
Right on.
That's great.
Take what's going on.
tate brown
What is going on, Patriots?
This is Tate Brown here holding it down on this beautiful, beautiful Friday.
Happy to be here.
phil labonte
Hello, everybody.
My name is Philabonte.
I'm the lead singer of the Heavy Middle Land, all that remains.
I'm an anti-communist and counter-revolutionary.
Let's get into it.
tim pool
Let's get into the first story.
And I got to be honest, probably the story that dominates the entire conversation.
That we do have big news.
We've got this newly released video footage from the ICE agents who fired the shots in question.
We're going to start by playing the video for you guys so you can watch it for yourself.
But it is, it is changing a bit of the narrative.
And there's a lot to debate on this video and what we're learning.
So let's roll the tape.
unidentified
Are you checking?
I'm not mad for it.
Show your face.
pam bondi
I'm not mad at it.
unidentified
It's okay.
We don't change our plates every morning.
Just so you know, it'll be the same fight when you come talk to us later.
That's fine.
You have citizen fucking fucking night.
You want to come at us?
I said, go get yourself some lunch, big boy.
Go ahead.
phil labonte
Get out of the fucking car.
pam bondi
Get out of the mall!
unidentified
I think you're not done!
Oh!
tim pool
Did he say fucking bitch?
unidentified
He sure did.
phil labonte
Sure did.
Holy shit.
You just got hit by a car.
unidentified
Yeah.
tim pool
And she's dead.
kaity passe
We can't help that.
tim pool
So let's play that again real quick.
There's a couple things to point out.
unidentified
Get out of the room!
Oh!
pam bondi
Bitch.
tim pool
So here's a few things.
First, I didn't catch this right away.
I was watching this video, and Phil pointed out it sounds like the wife says, drive, baby, drive, drive.
Try and listen.
And I'm not sure that's exactly what she's saying.
phil labonte
Get out of the fucking car.
unidentified
Get out of the car.
tim pool
It sounded like she said drive, baby, drive, drive.
You can also hear his body slap the hood or it sounds like it's hitting the hood of the.
phil labonte
There's two things going on at the same time.
It's body hitting the hood and the first shot goes off.
tim pool
The other thing is everyone's pointing out.
She's staring at the ice agent the whole time.
She turns her head and she's looking right at him.
And then she shifts and she's looking right at him as she starts spinning the wheel.
So this does change a few things.
You can see her spinning the wheel before she accelerates forward, which is because the wheels are actually facing the other direction.
So she has to spin it around quite a bit.
This is not even one second.
unidentified
Let's play.
tim pool
It's about a second and a half mate.
phil labonte
Can you hear Squeal of the Tires plate again?
unidentified
Get out of the ball.
Magic not done!
Oh!
Magic not done!
tim pool
Just like that.
About a second and a half.
So the interesting things to consider, prior contact.
She's engaged by DHS already.
And they're filming her vehicle.
And she says, I think it's here.
Let's play it.
unidentified
That's fine.
tim pool
That's fine, dude.
I'm not mad at you.
unidentified
I'm not mad at it.
Just look at our plates every morning.
tim pool
He's classified.
unidentified
U.S. citizen, former fucking guy.
You want to come at us?
You said go get yourself some lunch, big boy.
Yeah, go ahead.
Get out of the car.
Get out of the fucking car.
Get out of the car.
tim pool
Drive, baby, drive, drive.
It sounds like she's saying.
phil labonte
You can clearly hear the other ICE agent telling her to get out of the car.
She's ignoring a direct command.
tim pool
So we had a debate on this earlier, and we had a former prosecutor on who had argued initially that the first shot through the windshield is justifiable because you can see in all these angles he's being hit.
But the second and third shot will be harder to justify.
unidentified
However, what is this?
tim pool
You're playing music?
When we finished the debate, I didn't say anything.
I just pressed play and showed it to him, and he went, Whoa, yeah, there's not going to be a prosecution.
There's not going to be a prosecution with this video footage.
So I don't know what y'all think, but it sounds to me, I'll just give you my thoughts right away.
Prior contact indicates the woman driving the car, Renee Goode, was well aware that she was engaged with law enforcement.
So when they approached her saying, get out of the vehicle, and she attempted to flee, this was not a panic.
This was she knew she was engaged with law enforcement to a certain degree.
And this cop walking around her vehicle filming, he's collecting evidence.
When the other agent comes up and says, out of the car, she's smiling and staring at him.
And it appears the wife says, appears the wrong word, but it sounds like she says, drive, baby, drive, drive.
I think that's going to give her criminal culpability.
And I think the speed at which you hear the body hit the car and the shots go off are going to, like, this is a slam dunk for the agent.
It's not good.
It shouldn't have happened.
But I think a few things to point out.
The amount of time from him walking around the vehicle, she knows he's there.
There's no reason for her to drive.
And he's collecting evidence.
So why is he there?
There's a legitimate reason.
The wife says, you want to come at us?
You want to come at us?
And then appears to say, drive, baby, drive, drive, instructing, again, I'm not entirely sure what she's saying, but this is the argument that I think they would absolutely make and why this is not going to go.
She can clearly see the agent is standing right in front of her and she's a smile on her face.
And then she goes for it.
And she hits him.
And you can hear it.
And he shoots her.
I don't see how this.
Look, to be honest, this goes to prosecution because it's political.
Because Minnesota, the governor, the mayor, the state prosecutor, it's political ideology.
I think if we were in any sane reality where this was just on the merits, yo, she hit a federal agent with her car.
phil labonte
Yeah, I mean, look, the argument that I heard this morning, actually, or maybe it was last night, but JD Vance was saying he's got immunity because he's engaged in a lawful, you know, lawful stop.
She knew that, like you said, she knew she was dealing with law enforcement right away.
The guy came up and said, get out of the car.
So she's trying to flee the scene.
It is a pretty clear-cut case.
When her car contacted his body, then he's totally in the right to defend himself.
So the idea, I don't think that this actually goes to trial because I think he's got immunity.
I don't think the Justice Department is going to let it happen.
It's a state charge.
I think the feds are going to be like, no, you can't.
tim pool
Well, the state can bring the charges regardless.
phil labonte
Well, if he's got immunity, can they?
tim pool
They're going to try and move it to a federal court citing immunity.
This is what we were debating earlier.
Sovereign immunity is a federal agent, but come on.
Does it matter what's true?
phil labonte
Well, I mean, it's always what you can prove in court.
tim pool
No, no, no.
We're not even there anymore.
Like, they didn't even prove that Trump committed a crime in the fraud cases.
Does it matter?
phil labonte
I mean, to your point, no, I guess.
tim pool
We are well beyond legal machinations.
Now it's literally just exertions of authority and power.
tate brown
Yeah, I mean, I don't think most people on the left are even going to see this video.
Like, the resistance is already underway.
tim pool
What do you think?
@straighterade
I think this does it.
This only makes ICE look worse, in my opinion, for a few reasons.
One, I don't think, and this is not me saying that Renee Good driving away from officers that have asked her to stop or have told her to get out and disobey and not just complying with their orders is a good idea.
I'm strictly talking about: does this constitute her rise to the level of a reasonable person's understanding of what constitutes imminent threat or likelihood of death?
I don't think so.
I think this proves that it's very clear that she was attempting to do a three-point turn or move away the opposite direction of the officer, not trying to accelerate towards him or charge towards him.
I think that she had a calm demeanor, even if she's smiling.
And yes, she's doing so to taunt him, I suppose.
But one, I don't think that that constitutes a threat in and of itself.
She's saying, I'm not mad.
She's clearly turning right to get away from the officer.
So I don't see where the kind of imminent death is.
tim pool
What about drive, baby, drive, drive?
@straighterade
Did she say that, or did the other person say that?
kaity passe
But it sounds like you're making a lot of assumptions about her intent.
If she had just complied with the officer to begin with, we wouldn't be asking.
tim pool
Even outside of that point, intent is completely immaterial.
It's a vehicle is heading towards you.
That's it.
I mean, her intention, I think, was to flee.
I think I've said, but she, it's reckless disregard for the life of the officer.
@straighterade
I still think it was in the earlier debate we had, you think that you said that you thought she was attempting to murder him with the vehicle based on this now.
I might be misremembering.
What did you say?
tim pool
So what I said was yesterday in my morning show.
So let's go back in time.
The first thing I said was, she's clearly attempting to flee and she hit the officer.
Then we went on the show and we analyzed all the footage and I was like, you can see the tires spin out in his direction.
So then in the morning yesterday, I said, I think she actually was intending to hit him.
Then we reviewed more footage and other angles and I said, I don't think she wanted to kill the officer.
I think she was trying to flee, but didn't care if she did kill the officer.
And so I think we're seeing the same thing right now.
And this actually, I think, backs up what I'm saying.
She's clearly trying to flee, but she's looking dead at the officer.
She knows he's there.
He walked in her car.
She specifically said, It's okay.
I'm not mad at you.
She knows he's filming her.
She knows he's around the car.
Then you hear the other woman say, drive, baby, drive, drive.
Look at her.
She's staring right at him right now.
She doesn't see a stare rise to the level of a reasonable awareness that she's piloting a vehicle.
And from here, here's a time stamp.
From 40 seconds is when the car begins to accelerate to 41 in one second, he's struck.
@straighterade
I'm not disputing that it's accelerating, but she's clearly doing a bunch of turns because she's maneuvering the point is wheel all the way from the left to the right to her.
tim pool
It doesn't matter.
@straighterade
Of course it matters.
The intent always matters in these cases.
tim pool
No, it doesn't.
@straighterade
Yes, as far as factoring in, if it's reasonable to believe that she has some sort of state of mind that she wants to harm this person or hurt them.
tim pool
If I pointed a gun at you, could you shoot me?
@straighterade
Yes.
That's something that invokes per se self-defense.
No?
Because it's something that there is no way that you could behave with like brandish a weapon or point the gun at me or accelerate a vehicle towards somebody.
No, that definitely does not fall underneath.
tim pool
He's two feet from the vehicle and she accelerates towards him.
So he can't read her mind in that.
@straighterade
Unless she's doing so with a weapon or threatening him or doing so in the direction of that in law, a vehicle is a deadly weapon.
tim pool
It is legally a deadly weapon.
@straighterade
Says who?
tim pool
The law, precedent.
@straighterade
What law?
tim pool
In court precedent and in law, this is a deadly name of case.
@straighterade
I'm not familiar with the case.
tim pool
Are you joking?
@straighterade
I'm not joking.
unidentified
I'm not.
@straighterade
I'm not.
tim pool
What was the case we just had where the woman rear-ended the police in Minneapolis?
Was it Minnesota, actually?
Where the cop got was found dead in the snow?
It was the biggest.
Okay, come on, guys.
I don't know what you're doing.
I got to pull this out.
@straighterade
My understanding is to the extent that a car or a vehicle can be used to trigger, like, per se, self-defense, the individual has to have been caught in the commission of a very serious crime prior to engaging with the officer.
tim pool
They said Karen Reid struck her boyfriend with a car.
That's a deadly weapon.
A vehicle is like vehicular homicide has a name in law, vehicular homicide.
@straighterade
I know there's such a thing as vehicular homicide.
And I'm not saying that you can't use a vehicle to kill somebody, to injure somebody, but just using a vehicle around an officer that you're not complying with.
Yeah, run an officer that you're not complying with.
Doesn't necessarily constitute a threat.
Absolutely not.
This is definitely all of this like Monday morning quarterbacking that we're doing is exactly how Monday morning quarterbacking.
phil labonte
I'm telling you, vehicles are deadly weapons.
@straighterade
By going frame by frame, like over literally an interaction that happens over just a few seconds.
tim pool
Agreed.
@straighterade
This is how it's going to be decided.
And a reasonable person has each individual action taken by the cops in this instance constitute justified self-defense or use of deadly force.
So she couldn't.
And certainly not for the, like, even if I granted for the first one, the following two shots after that, when she's clearly turning away, which this video confirms, how is that going to hold up?
phil labonte
A vehicle can be considered a deadly weapon under certain circumstances, depending on how it is used in the context of the situation.
According to U.S., hold on.
According to U.S. law, a vehicle driven by a person with the intent to harm someone is legally classified as a deadly weapon.
The principle was emphasized.
The principle was emphasized by Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security Christy Noam, who stated that a vehicle used to harm someone is clearly established law as a deadly weapon.
Courts have consistently ruled that a car becomes a deadly weapon when it is used in a manner capable of causing death or serious physical injury.
He's in front of the car.
tim pool
It is absolutely capable of it.
phil labonte
It is absolutely capable of causing death or severe injury.
@straighterade
Wait, I'm not disputing that a car is capable of causing severe injury or death.
She's saying it's a weapon.
phil labonte
That's the context in which it is a weapon.
@straighterade
But it's not assumed that it's a weapon in the same way if you brandish it.
But hold on, but this is just a little bit of a problem from the analysis that I saw that saying to multiple angles, it did not look to me like it hit the person.
And the sound that's coming from this, because it's a first-person perspective, I'm not sure if that noise is because the vehicle touched him in any way or something.
tim pool
How did his feet slide backwards?
Because he moved back.
You think he did a double-footed moonwalk slide?
@straighterade
No, like, if he was struck by the vehicle, going even at that speed, wouldn't he have fallen over?
phil labonte
Not necessarily.
tim pool
He was going like a mile an hour and he's standing on ice and his feet slid backwards.
kaity passe
There's a point where both his feet are off the ground at the same time.
tim pool
No, no, I don't think that's true.
Both his feet are on the ground and both his feet slide backwards because his vehicle planted and he gets hit.
phil labonte
His feet are planted and he gets hit.
His feet slide back.
You hear him get hit on this video.
I mean, look, I'm not trying to poke at you, but I really think that you're just ignoring the facts of the situation.
tim pool
This is the problem being heard about politics.
It's not about what's actually happening.
@straighterade
It's a difference of opinion as far as what inference we're drawing from the same set of facts because I acknowledge you hear a noise, but it's unclear to me from this angle and from the other footage that I've seen if that's actually the noise coming from the video is because the car is making contact with the officer or from something else.
tim pool
What knocks his camera over?
@straighterade
I don't know.
tim pool
He threw his phone out in the air, pulled his gun out, and then caught his phone perfectly.
@straighterade
Like the third video is in the creek.
He's thinking this POV with the body cam because my understanding is this isn't the body cam, right?
He was like holding his hand.
tim pool
Yeah, you can see his reflection actually.
@straighterade
We need to see the cell phone, the body cam, as well as the third-person perspectives all at the same time to really get an idea of what happened.
tim pool
So he's collecting evidence because she's obstructing.
Eyewitnesses said that she was the ringleader obstructing.
He's filming her license plate, to which this woman says, Liza's plate ain't going to change.
It's going to be the same thing.
They are both engaging.
He then goes around and is filming the vehicle.
It's the second time he went around.
She already knows.
She has an ICE agent filming her vehicle.
Then a cop comes up and says, get out of the car.
And she seeks to flee, creating The point is this.
We can argue our opinion on what a person would perceive to be reasonable.
Only one thing matters.
She created the circumstance.
She's in commission of a crime.
She's in furtherance of that crime.
She stares dead at the officer.
He sees it.
Within a second, he's hit.
He chooses to shoot.
Even Dave, when I showed him this, he went, wow, okay, there's not going to be a prosecution.
I think there will be because it's political.
But like.
@straighterade
On the subject of case law, though, didn't Dave, when he was on earlier, say that just because you flee the scene doesn't mean that the cops are able to open fire on you because you've fled?
tim pool
Unless you are creating a threat to someone else's life.
@straighterade
But what's the threat here?
Because the threat that we've pointed to is the idea.
I know, but how is it going to be a matter of time?
tim pool
This woman right here is standing against the vehicle when the vehicle starts to move and there's other people standing around.
So there's something we talked with Andrew Brock about called imperfect self-defense.
So I asked you the question earlier, if I point a gun at you, can you shoot me?
Yes.
Yes.
What if my intention is that it's a toy gun and I'm playing a game and I don't see you there?
You can still shoot me.
@straighterade
If we're doing an objective analysis of what's reasonable, there's no reason to think that anybody who's brandishing a weapon in your direction or aiming it at you is going to be doing so with any other intent.
Other than, oh, I thought you said a real handgun.
If you said toy gun, if it's a toy gun, then no, that's not a gun.
tim pool
You can still shoot them.
Yes, it is.
It's called imperfect self-defense.
@straighterade
Meaning, my opinion, I don't think so.
tim pool
If you're asking me what the law has been found to be, how do you tell the difference between a real gun and a toy gun?
@straighterade
It's probably difficult in a lot of instances.
tim pool
Exactly.
So that means- Don't some have like orange caps or sometimes stuff like that?
So if I'm filming a movie scene on a property by myself, like I'm making a short film, and I have a camera pointed at me and I have a replica gun and you are walking down the road and I'm going like this and then I point at you and then you see the gun pointed at you, you can't shoot me.
@straighterade
Okay, well then in those circumstances where it's like daylight, you can't, you're too far to be able to tell whether or not it's a toy gun.
tim pool
You can be standing right in front of me.
@straighterade
Well, even, okay, those are circumstances where I can see an argument for imperfect self-defense, as you're saying.
Yes.
tim pool
So, okay, now.
@straighterade
Because what we're trying to analyze is the person that's using lethal force against somebody else and their state of mind.
And it is rational to assume that if you have a replica gun that's being aimed at you from somebody who you don't know, that to think that it's a real gun.
tim pool
Even if there is no intent to kill the other person, the person with the replica gun has no intent to kill anybody, has created a real fear of death, and it's called imperfect self-defense, then that the person who is in that line of perceived fire can kill you, and they will not be criminally charged for it because they didn't know it wasn't a real gun.
@straighterade
Okay, but what is the circumstances here?
tim pool
Let's get to it.
@straighterade
But you keep it in the middle of the middle.
tim pool
Does this individual have a reason to believe he will be seriously injured by this car?
@straighterade
No.
tim pool
Why not?
@straighterade
Because she's clearly, and this footage shows it.
She's clearly turning away and she said, I'm fine, dude, or I'm going.
What did she say?
Like, I'm not sure if I can do it.
tim pool
Well, what's your prior contact?
It doesn't prove intent of anything.
@straighterade
I'm not saying it proves that.
tim pool
The point is this.
If you're asking me about that, he already been struck from the front six months ago and dragged 330 feet.
So we're talking about his state of mind.
Does he have a reason to believe that the vehicle will cause bodily harm?
Yes, because it happened to him six months ago.
He is filming evidence of a vehicle.
They're antagonistic.
He walks to the front.
Lawful orders are given.
And just like the last event where he gave lawful orders to stop, the guy hit him with the front of the car and dragged him.
The same thing is about to happen.
Not only do I believe that proves his state of mind, is that there's a reasonable fear of harm, but it literally proves in the real world it does happen and did recently.
@straighterade
If trauma from six months ago makes you this trigger happy because of your PTSD, you honestly should not be on the field, in my opinion, as a cop.
tim pool
That's a fine argument.
@straighterade
I don't think a person that's subjected to what he experienced six months ago, like every single person would react the exact same way that he's reacting in the same set of circumstances.
I think he's being way too trigger happy.
And the two shots afterwards and him saying fucking bitch after.
tim pool
I don't know if that was him who said fucking bitch because that's the other cop.
@straighterade
I don't know who said it.
tim pool
But you're correct.
This guy should have been taken off active duty.
After experience that trauma, they should have said, we're going to put you on desk duty following this incident.
It's traumatic.
That doesn't change the fact that whether he should have, that's an administrative decision, and we can agree it was a wrong decision, but it doesn't mean that he should go to prison or that this was a murder.
@straighterade
I don't know that it would necessarily mean it's a murder because it doesn't, if it's trauma that is leading him to act this way, then maybe you could say it's a mitigating circumstance that means it's not malicious, but then I still think he could be on the hook for manslaughter or some sort of like reckless homicide.
tim pool
Reckless homicide, I don't think is a thing.
Negligent discharge, negligent arguments.
@straighterade
Or like negligent homicide, these sorts of things.
tim pool
I don't think you're going to get there's no way you're going to get a cop on negligent homicide when he's been in active engagement with the subject for over four minutes and they've communicated with each other.
And then when ordered to leave within a split second, she accelerates the vehicle.
They're like tragic shouldn't have happened.
But let's just be clear.
The circumstance is entirely at the fault of the woman driving.
That's just it.
She committed a crime.
Listen, look, when we talk about fault, it doesn't, so let me put it like this.
Two guys go into a grocery store.
They decide to rob one of the one of the tills.
They grab all the money out, and then his buddy turns around and runs and slips, falls down, cracks him in the ground, and dies.
His partner's at fault for that murder, and they will charge him with such.
When you commit a crime, anything that happens subsequently is your fault.
So the way we approach this in law is, did you commit a crime creating a circumstance that resulted in death, serious bodily harm?
You'll be charged for it.
@straighterade
Yeah, the whole thing.
tim pool
So the woman committed felony obstruction and felony evading arrest.
And in the process, in fact, I would argue this.
Renee Goode, were she to have survived, would have been criminally charged.
And I would actually argue, though it doesn't really make sense, she's responsible for her own death in the law by committing two felonies, which resulted in the death.
In fact, I'd argue that- Wait, what are the two felonies that she's accused?
Felony obstruction and felony evading arrest.
The first of which is 8 USC 1357.
I'm not sure the code on the other one.
This woman right here.
@straighterade
But the Supreme Court has ruled that, well, this takes us back to our earlier disagreement.
I don't want to loop, about how Dave was saying that just because you're fleeing arrest and trying to evade it does not necessarily mean that an officer can use lethal force against you.
tim pool
And that's an argument for whether he perceived a threat after the fact.
But I think if it's one second, as he pointed out, it's always going to be argued that it was not one, two, three.
It was shots fired within the span of a second.
More importantly, though, there's two things to consider.
This woman potentially saying drive, baby, drive, drive is, I believe, should be criminal.
If it is true, she said that.
That's criminal.
@straighterade
Renee Good be on the hook for something that somebody else said.
tim pool
Renee Goode?
@straighterade
Yeah, I don't know.
tim pool
No, the wife, if the wife instructed Renee Goode to commit a crime, that's also a crime.
That's illegal.
That's a felony.
@straighterade
But why would Renee be on the hook for that?
tim pool
Renee wouldn't be on the hook.
@straighterade
Regardless, do you think?
tim pool
Renee would be on the hook for what her wife did.
Her wife would be on the hook for instructing Rene to commit crime.
@straighterade
Renee probably would have driven and tried to avoid arrest, regardless of whether or not the wife had said that.
Do you agree?
Yes or no?
tim pool
Yes.
@straighterade
Then why is it such a big deal that the wife said drive, baby, drive?
unidentified
A conversation?
@straighterade
Because you're suggesting it's like an incitement of some sorts, but to me, it seems like she was time to do it already.
tim pool
But again, well, we can look at it this way.
@straighterade
I don't know if it's illegal.
I'm going to dawn.
Why?
tim pool
She says drive, baby, drive, drive before she accelerates.
I don't think they're going to bring charges against her, but the other consideration is that the defense will argue there was a pedestrian standing to the right of the vehicle.
I was standing in front of it.
I perceived a threat to myself and others.
The only reason, look, I think if they have a state charge, no matter what, like Dave was saying, this dude is going to get convicted in two seconds in Minnesota.
Two seconds.
Like, Derek Chauvin was innocent, and they convicted him.
@straighterade
Don't you, okay.
What do you think about him calling her a bitch after?
And also, we don't know that he did.
unidentified
Okay.
tim pool
The other cop.
@straighterade
Assume, take it as fact for now that he called her a bitch after.
tim pool
Well, why?
I can't take that as fact.
@straighterade
Just for the sake of hypothetical, for the sake of the argument, right?
Assume he called her a bitch and also didn't he leave the scene after?
tim pool
He did.
@straighterade
Okay.
Does that do anything?
Does that change your analysis whatsoever?
tim pool
As far as like, people in people have said things that could be incriminating, that are dismissed because it's considered like heat of the moment or high state of emotional, there are actually people who have gotten away with.
@straighterade
Well, I want to say this guy is like PTSD, in trauma, and so I'm like I've seen which actually excuses him.
I've seen body cam footage of cops that have used lethal force on somebody who they believed was threatening their life and afterwards they're freaking out.
They seem like they're hyperventilating, they're like, oh my god, they're freaking the fuck out.
I know, but for the sake of the argument, if he said that in combination with leaving the scene and seeming as calm as he was to be able to continue on, there's too many assumptions there.
tim pool
We don't know.
We know that he went to the hospital.
@straighterade
For the sake of the argument, i'm saying that if those things for the fourth time no, they're true.
unidentified
How many times I say no?
tim pool
No, I said no already.
You don't have to hit that.
@straighterade
That speaks to his state of mind that he was not actually in true fear for his life.
No, why not?
tim pool
You can't read his mind.
You don't know what he's thinking.
@straighterade
I'm not saying I can read his mind but I can draw inferences off his behavior.
You can't use that in court, otherwise everyone can't read Renee's mind and you can't read the wife's mind.
tim pool
I completely agree, which is why I did not.
I said her intent never mattered.
All that matters is she creates the perception of a threat of body harm.
@straighterade
Intent not matter.
When we're trying to ascertain whether or not somebody is acting in a way that an objective, reasonable person would perceive as menacing or threatening, we have to try to understand what their intent is.
tim pool
You agree that she was acting in a way that was menacing or threatening?
@straighterade
No, that's not what I said.
Do you want me to accelerating?
I said, how can intent not matter if that's what it's going to come down to in a significant way?
tim pool
You want to agree when it's argued legally, if I point a replica gun at you, you can kill me in that circumstance?
@straighterade
Yes, but I didn't agree what I did without knowing my intentions.
tim pool
Does my intent matter with the replica gun?
@straighterade
No, it doesn't because, like you said, you've created a circumstance where it's understandable that an objective, reasonable person could fear for their life without knowing or without that like, regardless of what that person's state of mind was, what's the difference?
The difference is that a gun or a replica gun is something that, to people, they will assume, oh, that's a real gun that could put my life in danger, and people don't think being crushed by a car will kill you, right?
No, people do think that being crushed by a car will kill you.
But in this particular circumstance, i've not seen enough factors that, to me, rise to the level or create you know set of circumstances where somebody could reasonably be fearing for their life.
I see the opposite.
If anything from this body cam I I see.
A guy who was dragged six months ago.
tim pool
You think he's traumatized?
@straighterade
Who?
tim pool
This guy from being dragged 330.
@straighterade
Yes, I already said that.
I already said he shouldn't even be on the field, and you agreed with me.
tim pool
I do agree.
So do you believe this person had a reasonable fear of great bodily harm?
@straighterade
No.
tim pool
Even though he had just been dragged and was traumatized, you said he was traumatized.
So his trauma doesn't factor in his fears?
@straighterade
No, it does factor in his fear.
tim pool
So why would he be traumatized, but simultaneously not fearing getting injured?
How does that make sense?
@straighterade
No.
tim pool
Traumatized implies he has an irrational reaction due to a past event.
@straighterade
Okay.
I thought that you asked me.
What was the question that you would initially ask me?
tim pool
Do you think he is traumatized from being dragged 330 feet to be hospitalized?
@straighterade
That I agree to, correct.
tim pool
Yes.
Okay.
If someone is traumatized, do you believe they will act the same way as someone who was not traumatized?
@straighterade
No.
tim pool
So then this individual who was previously injured by being hit front on by a car and dragged, do you think that person may, through their trauma, which you agree he has?
@straighterade
That also doesn't preclude, maybe, but it also doesn't preclude the possibility of them just being impulsive or angry.
So like we're presupposing that trauma is the thing that's guiding his response.
Could it be something that's guiding his response?
Yes.
I even think that that could be given the past event.
tim pool
I think you're just saying things to be on a tribe.
@straighterade
What do you mean?
tim pool
I think you're literally just using sophistry and saying whatever you have to to justify why you don't like ICE.
Like it wouldn't matter at all whether he did or did not do anything right, wrong, was traumatized or otherwise.
You are going to make some kind of sophistry argument as to why it's wrong.
@straighterade
What is sophistry that I've engaged in here?
tim pool
I mean, we literally have a woman who committed two felonies.
@straighterade
No, no, no.
What is sophistry that I've engaged in?
tim pool
Okay.
@straighterade
Not a set of circumstances that we've looked at.
What did I say would constitute sophistry?
tim pool
You making up fake arguments to justify claiming a guy who's traumatized by the people who are not going to be able to do that.
You simultaneously traumatize but not fearing for you.
@straighterade
By fake arguments, you mean hypothetical, correct?
unidentified
No.
@straighterade
What do you mean by fake arguments then?
tim pool
So the sophistry is the implication that you're using arguments to mislead.
@straighterade
Yeah.
tim pool
And like agreeing he's traumatized, which presents an irrational reaction relative to the general public, which could be a case.
But that in this circumstance, he's not.
He's not acting within the trauma.
How could he?
So the point is.
@straighterade
But I never said we know for sure that that's what we're doing.
I'm saying that it's a sophistry.
How is that sophistry?
That's just not what I'm saying.
tim pool
Because literally, if you look at the video, a car accelerates, you hear a noise that sounds like he's being hit, and she's staring at him, and you're like, nah.
Like, okay, look, any reasonable person watching this is sophistry.
This is the political divide in this case.
@straighterade
This is fast and loose with different terms to argue for a particular end disingenuously.
tim pool
And that's what you're doing.
@straighterade
No.
Do you think that I don't genuinely hold this position?
unidentified
Yes.
@straighterade
I would just say if I thought it was a good idea.
tim pool
No, because you want to fit in.
You're scared of getting canceled by liberals.
You'll lose viewers.
You'll lose money.
So you're going to say whatever you have to justify this.
@straighterade
I feel like you're doing that.
tim pool
No, I have no problem saying Trump shouldn't have invaded Venezuela and Trump lied about him getting in the middle.
@straighterade
You already said that you, in this circumstance, wouldn't have done it and that it's a tragedy, right?
tim pool
Yes, right.
Sounds like I'm consistent.
@straighterade
Nonetheless, you are saying that it was justified.
tim pool
This guy who suffered a trauma previously after being hit front on by a car and dragged reasonably feared the same thing would happen as one was committing two.
@straighterade
And you said in the same set of circumstances, even if you had that trauma, you still wouldn't have done this, right?
tim pool
I didn't say if I had that trauma.
@straighterade
I thought you had.
I thought it was predominant.
tim pool
I said, I've experienced life or death situations.
And so when I look at something like this, I relate it to the experiences I've had.
And I said, I probably wouldn't have shot.
My point is if we agree he had trauma.
@straighterade
Assuming that you had the trauma?
That's assuming you had the trauma from six months ago?
kaity passe
You can't assume it.
tim pool
Never.
Yeah, how do you assume an irrational reaction?
@straighterade
Because you're trying to put yourself in the same set of circumstances as this individual.
So all else being equal, this individual.
It's you.
tim pool
That's the point I make.
@straighterade
Six months of trauma.
tim pool
You're saying that you're not going to be able to say that you wouldn't have reacted any other way.
I've already said yes.
@straighterade
So yes, you would have acted the exact same way if you'd had the traumatic event six months earlier.
tim pool
So the presumption is the reason why I am saying he is acting this way is because I believe any person, any rational, normal person who suffers a grievous injury being dragged by a vehicle to being hit head on.
@straighterade
Six months earlier.
tim pool
Six months earlier, very recent, would have the same reaction, which includes myself.
Because my perception of behavior is based on my perceptions.
It's projection.
I believe that were I to have been rammed and dragged, I would react similarly to this cop.
Yes.
@straighterade
And rammed and dragged six months earlier.
tim pool
That's very recent.
That means he was in the hospital four months.
@straighterade
I'm not saying it's not recent.
tim pool
I'm just underscoring that.
@straighterade
When you say rammed and dragged, you're not referring to anything that happened around this incident.
You're talking about something that happened six months before.
tim pool
He was rammed.
@straighterade
The vehicle made contact with him.
Maybe from what I saw, I didn't, from the New York Times analysis.
tim pool
I said it appears he was struck.
@straighterade
That was not.
I didn't read it.
tim pool
They literally said it.
@straighterade
I didn't read the editorialization or listen to it.
tim pool
No, no, they literally said from the video, it appears the officer was struck.
@straighterade
I'm not disputing that.
Maybe they said that.
I'm saying I only watched it.
I didn't listen to any of the editorialization.
I didn't have the captions on it.
So just from the consolidated footage of them showing the two angles simultaneously, I didn't listen to any of the way that they described the footage.
I only viewed it on mute.
And from what I saw, it did not look like the vehicle made contact with the officer, but it might be.
tim pool
See, you're lying.
@straighterade
Why?
tim pool
Like, come on.
His feet slide on the ground.
Do we want to pull up the New York Times footage?
@straighterade
Let me show you which frames, and I will be willing to concede.
If I see it make contact, we'll then show it again.
It's wild.
I'll be more than willing to concede if it makes contact, if it looks like it's made contact with the officer.
tim pool
You now have four videos which show content was made of the officers, and you're like, nah, but I just don't believe that.
@straighterade
Then it should be easy to prove me wrong right now.
tim pool
I've already showed you the videos.
@straighterade
You can show it to me again because I did not see at any point a clear instance where it touched him.
No, no, no, no.
Wait.
Hold on.
The New York Times one.
tim pool
Watch the magic officer's feet slide on the ground right here.
You see his feet?
@straighterade
We're not supposed to be looking at the video.
tim pool
Man, he's better than MJ then moonwalk.
unidentified
Look at that slide.
tim pool
Look at that slide.
One foot off the ground, one foot sliding backwards because he can shift his weight.
Like, you ever see the one-inch punch from Bruce?
@straighterade
New York Times footage?
tim pool
What about the New York Times footage?
What's the difference?
This is the footage of the incident.
@straighterade
The New York Times shows both angles on top of each other at the same time.
tim pool
Is this not footage of the incident?
@straighterade
I'm not saying it's not footage on the video.
tim pool
You want me to play an editorialized video where there aren't.
@straighterade
You don't have to listen to the editorial.
You can play it on mute.
tim pool
The video itself is editorialized.
@straighterade
I want you to pull up the video and you want to pull up their source videos for you.
Why won't you play that video?
tim pool
Because editorialized.
@straighterade
Because they edited the footage.
Now you're the one who actually won't show it because it might be a video.
unidentified
I've already showed it.
tim pool
I've shown it 15 times.
@straighterade
Then showed it for a 16 minutes.
tim pool
You're asking me to pull up editorialized edited video to prove your point.
@straighterade
Sure.
tim pool
How about we pull up the source?
@straighterade
Not to prove my point.
To disprove my point.
Because you're saying that you're not going to contact.
tim pool
What's the problem with the raw video?
@straighterade
There's nothing wrong with this.
If we can get another angle from the New York Times one that shows me, why won't you show the New York Times one?
Why won't you show the New York Times one?
Why won't you show the New York Times one?
tim pool
I did.
@straighterade
Tim, why won't you show it to me right now and show exactly where the car in contact with the officer?
tim pool
It's on the screen.
@straighterade
I think it's because you know that there's a good chance that maybe it did.
tim pool
Am I losing my mind?
Did I pull the video up just now?
@straighterade
This is not.
Is this the New York Times one?
tim pool
Yes.
@straighterade
No.
tim pool
What are you talking about?
@straighterade
The New York Times one is the analysis that shows.
tim pool
Oh, you're asking me to pull up the analysis editorial video.
@straighterade
Yeah.
The one that shows the two.
tim pool
See, my presumption was you wanted the video they used showing the other angle because you said you're showing me one angle.
So I pulled it up.
@straighterade
Oh, you're just an editorial.
unidentified
Okay.
@straighterade
So you're just confused.
No, I'm asking for the New York Times one that shows the two angles synced at the same time.
tim pool
I get it.
Slow down, slow down.
Do you want me to pull up the editorial?
@straighterade
Sure.
tim pool
Okay, I'll pulp the editorial.
unidentified
You can see that.
tim pool
I thought you were asking me to say that.
@straighterade
I'm not pulling up what you describe as the editorial shit.
tim pool
It's literally an editorial.
It's called an editorial.
@straighterade
You can pull up what you describe as the editorial.
Sure.
tim pool
The literal definition of a video produced by a news organization is called an editorial.
@straighterade
Okay, you can pull up what you describe as the editorial.
Yes.
That's what I'm saying.
tim pool
Oh, my God.
See, you're a sophist.
This is sophistry.
No, this is being precise with my language and the definition of the production.
It's not an insult.
It's not derisive.
The definition of a piece of media produced by a news organization is called an editorial.
unidentified
Sure.
tim pool
That's the word.
You're like, you call it that.
No, the dictionary does.
tate brown
Yeah, saying what you call is like the left-wing version of the fifth, pleading the fifth.
tim pool
So here's the New York Times editorial.
That's the definition of what it is called.
This is not the source material.
These are the distinct words we use to describe things.
Source material is the original video footage that was released.
The editorial is when they combine two videos and make a statement about it.
unidentified
Okay.
tim pool
You want to watch the New York Times statement about it.
I have no problem with that.
So we'll pull that up and go to the point where they, here we go.
See, here's the funny thing.
This is the video I pulled up when you asked me to pull up the New York Times.
@straighterade
Can you go to the moment where they're?
tim pool
I will.
I just want to make sure this is clear that you literally just tried to argue.
The same video I pulled up, which is on the New York Times and that I pulled up, was not the video.
This is sophistry.
You're just lying.
Now I'll play the video first.
tate brown
Trump and others said the federal agent was hit by the SUV.
tim pool
And I'm going to mute the commentary because I don't know why you want me to play an editorial.
@straighterade
I said you can play it mute.
We're only trying to.
tim pool
And I can't even remove the words they've included that are lies.
@straighterade
You can turn off closed captioning in the bottom right corner of any YouTube video.
tim pool
Oh, there you go.
So there's the officer getting hit.
They circle him even.
I'm sorry, they square him.
Let's be precise.
They square him.
And now they show two videos of him being hit.
Okay.
So what was the.
@straighterade
Can you go back and slow it down?
It's not clear.
tim pool
Yeah.
unidentified
Absolutely.
tim pool
Let's slow it down as much as we can.
Where's the speed?
Oh, playback speed.
Let's do the slowest possible.
@straighterade
And keep in mind the statement that Christy Noam said is that this person like ran over.
tim pool
Well, Trump did, and Trump lied.
@straighterade
And Trump and Christy Noam both said that.
Have they retracted those statements?
phil labonte
Play the video.
Stop changing the subject.
tim pool
Do you want me to tell you that Trump lied?
I'll say it again.
@straighterade
Same subject.
tim pool
Trump lied.
He put out a statement the guy got run over and that he's lucky to be alive.
@straighterade
He never retracted the same event.
tim pool
Yeah, that's a bad thing.
He should.
Watch the feet slide.
The moonwalk.
phil labonte
Oh, look at that slide.
tim pool
Man, he's better than MJ.
phil labonte
It's like a wedding.
To deny that he was hit is to deny what you're looking at.
@straighterade
It might have made contact with him.
It's unclear.
phil labonte
Oh, my God.
Come on.
tim pool
This is what sophistry is.
Do you understand?
@straighterade
No, I really.
tim pool
How did his feet slide?
How did his feet slide?
@straighterade
Because maybe either he could have moved back.
He could have moved back suddenly or angled his body.
He could have tripped backwards.
tim pool
One foot is off the ground, one foot sliding.
How do you do that?
@straighterade
It's also possible that the vehicle made contact with him.
tate brown
This is like in the NFL when your team makes the game-winning catch and then they do the replay and it's obviously at a foot out of bounds.
And then they're like, well, I don't know.
phil labonte
Maybe shoelaces really.
tate brown
I don't know.
phil labonte
I don't want to be derisive or anything, but it really is that you're just denying the evidence right in front of your face.
tim pool
Yeah, for political.
phil labonte
We brought up the thing that you wanted us to bring up.
You see his foot slide.
The other one, you see the car contact his body and he's pushed out of the way because the car contacts his body.
@straighterade
It's not even telling me that his feet are steady.
He could have been jumping back.
phil labonte
He wasn't jumping back.
Look the fuck sliding.
@straighterade
No, no, no.
Tim asked me how could he have moved this way were it not for the car touching him.
But I'm saying it's possible he could have jumped back to avoid coming in contact with the vehicle.
tate brown
It could have been like a seance near the edge of the street.
tim pool
He could have articulated jumping backwards while keeping your center of gravity stable and sliding a foot on the ground is very difficult.
This is just crazy.
tate brown
Tim, it is Minneapolis.
There's a lot of small-y black magic.
Maybe a spell was cast and it like slid him back.
I don't know.
There's a lot of possibilities on the table.
tim pool
I mean, his feet are sliding.
@straighterade
But I'll even grant, even if it made contact with him, that still, to me, does not rise to the level of animals.
unidentified
He's hit by a car.
tim pool
We can hit a cop.
@straighterade
This car is coming in contact with the colour.
tim pool
I mean, to be honest, the left always accepted that.
@straighterade
That's true.
tim pool
Let's listen to what the New York Times has to say.
@straighterade
How does shooting somebody in a car stop?
tim pool
Now we're moving the goalpost.
@straighterade
How?
phil labonte
Because you're like talking about how to shooting someone in a car, it doesn't matter.
The point is, he was hit by the car.
@straighterade
It does matter because his training and his policy, as per DHS and ICE, is that you're not supposed to be in front of a vehicle and that shooting at an individual in a vehicle does not actually eliminate a deadly threat coming your way from somebody in a vehicle.
tim pool
It's that you can't, and we went over this with Dave who pulled up the actual exclusions and it was you can only use lethal force against a vehicle if the vehicle is being driven in a way that constitutes a threat of great bodily harm or death.
@straighterade
This is from NBC.
The way ICE officers approached the vehicle involved in today's shooting was counter to their training.
A senior Department of Homeland Security official told NBC News.
The official said ICE officers are trained, one, never to approach a vehicle from the front, two, to approach vehicles or possibly armed people in a tactical one, a 90-degree angle to prevent injury or crossfire.
Three, not to shoot at a moving vehicle.
Four, only to use force if there is immediate risk of serious injury or death.
ICE officers are also instructed that firing at a vehicle will not make it stop moving in the direction of the officer.
tim pool
And what was that part about if it's going to cause bodily harm or death?
@straighterade
Only use force if there's immediate risk of serious injury.
tim pool
Which, once again, we're back to all this dispute.
@straighterade
Again, ICE officers are instructed that firing at a vehicle will not make it stop moving in the direction of an officer.
tim pool
So again, my point was, even if the car made controversy, that's fine.
@straighterade
My point is, even if the car made contact with the officer, that does not mean that shooting at that person or using deadly force in this instance would be justified.
And then this is still not even getting.
This is still not even getting to the fact that he shot her two more times after in the span of a second.
The side, yes.
tim pool
Yeah, in the span of one second after getting hit, he goes one, two, three.
Right.
tate brown
Trump and others said the federal agent was hit by the SUV, often pointing to another video filmed from a different angle.
And it's true that at this moment in this grainy, low-resolution footage, it does look like the agent is being struck by the SUV.
tim pool
It does indeed look like he's being struck by the SUV that he wasn't run over.
Agreed, Trump was wrong or lied when he said he was run over.
That never happened.
But it does appear in this video, he was struck.
And I would also say his feet sliding on the ground basically prove it.
There's no way to do that.
That's just not reality.
His left foot is off the ground and his right foot is sliding.
Okay.
And then let's just do this because I love doing this.
Oh, look, her tire's spinning out while pointed at the officer.
phil labonte
You can see the tire spin and the weight shift.
@straighterade
And it doesn't even knock him over.
This doesn't speak to the fact that he's amazing for being able to maintain a center of gravity.
It speaks to me that if he made contact with the vehicle, and I'll grant for the sake of the argument that he did, then it was at such a low acceleration that to think that he was at risk for imminent death or severe bodily injury is unreasonable to me.
tim pool
I think there's two different factors at play.
One, political tribesmanship results in, this is true of conservatives, but it's slightly less.
I call it like 60, 40, 40, 60.
There are a lot of conservatives that will say Trump can do nothing wrong, like literally whatever he does.
And it's just like, that's stupid.
But it's 40% of the time.
And that's because the Republican Party has historically been a little bit smaller than Democrats.
And Trump only wins with this moderate coalition that eventually came in.
So people like me or Elon Musk or Joe Rogan who are going to call out Trump in two seconds when he does dumb things.
Like, we shouldn't have gone in Venezuela.
I think that was a mistake.
We'll see how that plays out.
Trump is lying about the cop being run over.
It's clearly not true.
But then there are people who are going to be like, no, Trump is right.
Doesn't matter.
On the left, it's an inversion.
It's more likely they're going to just say whatever they say in the majority to defend the liberal tribe.
And I think this is related to cancel culture because the right is less likely to cancel you and the left is more likely to cancel you.
So why is it so difficult for us to get liberals to come on this show or any other show?
Because they're going to get canceled after the fact just for associating.
And conservatives don't do that.
So liberals are more likely to just say, I will say anything to fit with the tribe so I don't get canceled.
Whereas the right has that faction, but is less likely to do that because you're going to have middle-of-the-road people who say Trump is lying.
I don't care.
You can believe whatever you want, but Trump is lying.
@straighterade
You think that the majority of like moderate voters agree with your analysis over mine?
phil labonte
Yes.
tim pool
Well, no, I would say right now, I honestly don't know.
This just happened and we don't have a public perception.
What I would say is we tend to find when you look at wide-scale polling that independent voters, swing voters, they tend to align with, like my views tend to align with theirs quite a bit.
So you'll notice that, let me pull up civics as a good example.
And you can see where the Trump bias is and you can see where the liberal bias is.
And it's funny how Democrats respond to things and independents.
Oh, actually, is it going to let me do it?
Okay, yeah, let's try national economy.
So you can actually see the hilarity of this in the hyper-partisanship of everybody.
You go to Democrat.
How would you rate the condition of the national economy right now?
Take a look at this.
For some reason, on January 20th, January 20th, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, January 2020, 2021, you immediately have this shift.
Where are we at?
Party Democrat.
So in 2019, 2008, you have a fairly good 45%, 26% fairly bad, 30% very bad, 11% unsure, blah, blah, blah.
Right around election, the opinion on the economy inverts.
And now the economy is very, very bad.
Okay, well, that doesn't make no sense.
And this is January 2010.
To be fair, COVID, right?
So let's jump to the front where we can see January of 2025.
Because to be fair, January of 2020 wasn't election year.
It was COVID.
So I should clarify, that's where things kind of make sense.
It was a Trump term.
Democrats actually thought things were kind of okay.
Well, hold on there, gosh darn minute.
Now we're in Biden's term.
In Biden's turn, 53% of Democrats say the economy is fairly good.
The moment Trump is inaugurated, they now claim the economy is very bad.
That's not a real opinion, is it?
@straighterade
It's a real opinion, but it's biased.
tim pool
It's not a real opinion.
It's just me saying I hate Trump.
Because you can't be like, a week ago, the economy was perfect.
A week later, the economy is bad.
That's a lie.
But hold on, though.
Don't get me wrong.
I got Republicans for this one too.
We ain't playing no silly games.
Republicans are the exact same.
It's not exactly the same, but it's similar.
Take a look at this.
During Joe Biden, all the Republicans said the economy was very bad.
And then you get Election Day and it starts to drop.
Right at Inauguration Day, it drops.
46 very bad, 41 very bad.
So we've got 87% of Republicans in the economy is somewhat bad.
The moment Trump gets in, it flips.
And now it's 60% fairly good.
That is not a real opinion.
And you can see the trends.
When a Democrat's in office, it's bad.
When Republicans in office, it's good.
Because this is fake.
We go to independent and what do we find?
It more likely aligns.
Now, this is where you get real opinion.
Around COVID, there's an inversion.
Makes a lot of sense.
You don't see the harsh turns that you'll end up seeing during elections among independent voters.
And what I would say right now, as I've said for the past seven, eight months since Trump has been in, the economy is not good.
And the reason Trump is taking actions on institutional investors is because he's trying to get home prices lower.
Earlier in the year, he said that he wants home prices to be high because boomers like having their equity in homes.
And I said the economy is bad.
Gen Z is screwed.
And independent voters tend to follow that.
So I would argue that the point is Republican Party historically smaller than Democrats.
That's why I call it 60, 40, 40, 60.
Democratic Party larger.
What that means is on left-aligned individuals, they tend to in the majority.
And for Republican-aligned individuals, they have their cult, but their coalition has independent voters.
That's how Trump ended up winning in 2024, largely suburban housewives and working class people in swing states.
That's the independent voters that are pointing this out.
So I can go to a conservative and I can go to a Trump supporter and say, yeah, Trump lied.
Trump said outright the guy got run over.
He clearly did not get run over.
In fact, I doubt he was injured at all.
Maybe a minor ankle sprain, if you want to be in the most extreme.
donald j trump
No.
tim pool
It doesn't change whether or not he felt he was about to be crushed because we had that Amy, I forgot her name, the officer in Baltimore who was crushed in a second by a vehicle standing in the same place.
kaity passe
And I'm a major Trump supporter, and I agree with you, Tim.
I would get canceled, and I don't care, right?
And so there's a faction of people that are out there and just telling the truth about how they feel.
If I were to care about what other people think, then it's not really my opinion anymore.
And that's the problem that I'm seeing with the social media mob is that they're more looking toward, oh, what are my followers going to think?
Or how do I get more followers?
And that's the issue.
tim pool
Let's jump to this story from CNN.
What's behind the highly unusual move to block Minnesota officials from investigating the ICE shooting?
Wait, what?
This is actually pretty interesting.
Uh-oh, CNN's given the business.
We're going to have to have to give CNN the business.
I thought I already gave him the business, but let me log in real quick.
I'm logging in.
That's what I'm doing to make sure that I'm logged in.
All right, here we go.
I thought we already logged in.
They say mutual distrust between federal and state authorities derailed plans for a joint FBI and state criminal investigation into Wednesday's shooting of a Minneapolis woman by ICE, leading to the highly unusual move by the DOJ to block state investigators from participating in the probe.
The Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension said Thursday that after an initial agreement for the FBI to work with the state agency, as well as prosecutors from the U.S. Attorney's Office in Minneapolis and the Hennepin County's attorney's office to investigate the shooting, federal authorities reversed course and the FBI blocked the BCA from participating in the investigation.
You know, I love about this.
We did a debate show earlier.
I said this was going to happen.
I said Trump's not going to let him do it.
And Dave said it's a state-level thing.
They'll do it.
I'm like, yeah, but they're going to pull the guy to the state and there's not going to be charges.
So let me just put it like this.
I don't care whose side you're on.
I don't care if you're a liberal or conservative.
Just understand what time it is.
The feds are not allowing a criminal investigation from the state of a cop who shot a lady.
It doesn't matter if you think he was justified.
It doesn't matter if you think he was not justified.
The point is the federal government and the state governments have bisected and are now at odds with each other.
Where does that go?
Like, is there, Phil, in your mind, a circumstance by which the federal government apologizes and says, let's come back together, boys?
phil labonte
I think that's probably unlikely.
tim pool
Yeah.
So what happens next?
And I mean, it's not rhetorical.
It's not a joke question.
I'm not trying to make someone scream civil war.
I'm literally asking, if the federal government is now saying to the states, we're not going to work with you on these things, what does the state do?
And then what do, like, what, like, what is, what is the next thing that's going to happen?
phil labonte
Legitimately, I think the state stands down.
I don't think that they're, I don't think they push the issue.
I don't think that they're in a position where they have the ability to do it.
tim pool
You think this guy won't be prosecuted?
phil labonte
No.
I don't think so.
Really?
tim pool
What do you guys think?
@straighterade
I think they'll try to bring charges against him.
tim pool
I agree.
unidentified
Absolutely.
tim pool
I think the state is going to try to bring charges.
phil labonte
They may try, but I don't think that he's going to actually stand.
I don't think it's.
tim pool
No, I agree.
He won't stand trial.
I don't know for sure, but I would say the probability lies with the federal government's not going to let them prosecute this guy.
phil labonte
Yeah, that's right.
tim pool
But this is getting weird.
unidentified
Yeah.
tate brown
Yeah.
I mean, I don't see a world in what the DOJ just lets them try to railroad this guy.
But they learned their lesson in 2020 from Chauvin, like the state and everybody.
tim pool
But what are the ramifications of outstanding criminal charges in Minnesota against a cop who shot and killed a person and the federal government being like, we're going to protect him from prosecution?
phil labonte
Trump and Vance have stated many times to law enforcement, we have your back and stuff.
So I don't know what it means for recently.
Yeah, I don't know.
tim pool
On this specifically, I believe.
phil labonte
Yeah, I don't know what it means for overall for the relations between the federal government and the state of Minnesota.
But it's not going to.
tim pool
I'm not even talking about Minnesota.
Other blue states have reciprocity.
So technically, every state has criminal reciprocity with every other state, but not anymore.
Florida would not extradite this guy.
If this cop comes to Florida to lay low and Minnesota brings charges, ain't nobody in Florida going to let them come into Florida and rendition him.
phil labonte
Not at all.
kaity passe
And think about what happens if the federal government doesn't step into these operations into this.
The ICE operations would cease.
And outside of just this incident, right before this, they were already intimidating the police that same day.
And now, after this, imagine what that environment is like.
So the federal government has to step up.
tate brown
Yeah, it would be open season on cops.
You can just ram them with your car.
Like that's the precedent now.
You can just, if you feel any pressure whatsoever from the police, just step on the accelerator and you'll get a, you know, you'll get a twin's tickets the next morning.
tim pool
JD Van said, I want every ICE officer to know that their president, vice president, the entire administration stands behind them.
To the radicals assaulting them, doxing them, and threatening them, congratulations.
We're going to work even harder to enforce the law.
If the DOJ, the federal government, DHS, Vance, Trump, whoever you want to name, Christy Noam, allows this cop to be prosecuted in Minnesota, ICE is going to quit and mess.
And the Trump administration may as well resign on the spot because their agenda will never come close to fruition.
phil labonte
Yeah, I mean, that's reason enough why Minnesota and the left would want to see him prosecuted because they know that it would destabilize the law.
tim pool
And think of the narrative.
phil labonte
Law enforcement overall.
tim pool
If, again, outside of the morality of who was right, who was wrong, if Minnesota says, here's my prediction: Jacob Frey and Waltz or anyone else, the DA, they're going to say, they're going to do a press conference where they say, we are not here to assert that this man is guilty of any crimes.
We are here to say that there was an officer involved shooting that requires an investigation.
And based on the analysis of that investigation, a grand jury will choose to indict.
They'll likely say a grand jury has returned an indictment for which now he can stand before a jury of his peers.
They're going to approach it very neutrally.
Trump cannot allow this guy to face the prosecution because he will lose no matter what.
Which means the Minnesota government and Democrats will then say, Donald Trump is shielding a murderer who killed a woman in cold blood.
Other blue states will line behind that.
This is a crazy situation because I don't see an exit for anyone other than this is how things escalate to state on state or feds versus state.
phil labonte
Yeah, I mean, it's one more step down the road, right?
tim pool
But a big one.
phil labonte
I don't know.
tim pool
This is a jump down 10 of the stairs.
phil labonte
I don't know how fast things deteriorate, but this is definitely moving in the direction of deteriorating.
tate brown
Well, I mean, the feds hold the cards.
I mean, we saw back earlier in 2025 when Trump just took the National Guard, federalized it, and then Newsome complained about it and said he was going to do everything he could, and then nothing happened.
So the state's avenues towards retribution here is very, very limited.
Again, the federal government has all the cards here in this instance.
@straighterade
This is not a problem.
I think there was a lawsuit filed.
I don't know if it was by the government in California, but then there was a California judge that said the National Guard presence is illegal.
And then there was another judge that saw it and overturned that and said, no, it was legal.
And I think they're still sorting it out in the courts.
They are.
But as far as like, yeah, it's probably if he said anything along the lines of like, I'm going to use every single thing that I can do to resist it.
Like, yeah, it's probably like saber rattling or whatever.
But I mean, like, legally, slow and steady wins the race.
So, him doing anything other than like, you know, waiting for the court to adjudicate it would just be like LARPing, in my opinion.
tim pool
Yeah, let me ask you.
@straighterade
Um, because, like, a state government's like never going to be able to overcome like the might of like a fed of like federal agents being deployed or like the U.S. military or anything like that.
tim pool
So, you believe there will be prosecution of the office of the agent?
@straighterade
Um, I don't know.
I believe they're going to bring charges, but do you mean like federal or state?
tim pool
That's what I mean.
State level will bring charges against you.
I agree with you.
I think they will.
The question is, as we've discussed, now I'll ask you, do you think the federal government will evacuate this guy and avoid the prosecution, or you think they'll let him get prosecuted?
@straighterade
I think it's, I mean, this administration has shown that they will brazenly ignore the law, they'll ignore court orders, they will lie if they want to.
So, I would put it, I would say it's in the realm of possibility, sure, that they would definitely try to stand behind this officer to the point that you're talking about.
But don't you think that would be wrong if they were trying to like tip the scales?
tim pool
So, here's the important thing: let's set aside our opinions on the morality of whether it should, like whether it's good or bad.
Because I agree with you.
I think they will bring charges.
They have to.
And I believe Trump will try to shield this guy from those charges and prosecution.
So, I think we're in agreement that that, whether it's good or bad, isn't material.
That's likely what it is.
unidentified
Like a martyr.
tim pool
So, the question I have for you is, should this agent say go to Florida, where it's like a very favorable state?
Do you think that Minnesota should take any action to try and extradite him back to Minnesota for these charges for this trial?
unidentified
Yes.
@straighterade
And I think whether or not Florida tries to like stand behind this person will come down to public opinion because I don't think that Ron DeSantis is done trying to become president.
So he is going to try to read the room and see, is there the political will for me to stand behind this ICE officer and basically do this come and take it shit and let him turn fucking Mar-a-Lago into his like fortress?
tim pool
Well, let's get into nitty-gritty.
I mean, the only real action that Minnesota could take would be to send state troopers to Florida.
@straighterade
I guess so, yeah.
So, uh, unless there's other ways that you can extradite somebody from another state, it's going to be by force, right?
Yeah.
tim pool
So, Minnesota in any capacity, let's, I'll try and avoid being overly specific due to like, my point is not to bring up the laws and the regulations of state troopers, but the point is, in order to get this guy out of Florida as an example of a friendly state, they would have to send people to forcefully pull him from the state.
unidentified
Yes.
tim pool
Like arrest him, put him in a vehicle and drive him there.
Do you think they should?
@straighterade
Yeah, of course.
tim pool
So that being the case, what do you think Florida law enforcement would do if Minnesota law enforcement entered extra jurisdictional territory to apprehend a man that is lawfully in their state?
@straighterade
I mean, I think it's, again, it's going to be a staring contest, and I don't know if it's going to come down to what that individual precinct decides to do.
I don't know if they're going to be looking to take orders from just people locally or if they're going to be looking to Ron DeSantis and the state government broadly to see what they can do, what they ought to do.
That's why I don't think that this is any sort of like principled action that would be a like plan that would come from Florida.
I do think it's determined almost exclusively by public opinion and what they think they should they can get away with.
If they see Will among the base that, you know, especially the conservative base that DeSantis is trying to pick up for 2028 or a run after that, then he'll stand behind the officer.
If he sees public favor turn against him, then he will be like, we can't obstruct justice or pretend like he, he won't say, I'm going to cooperate.
He's just not going to tell them, get in the way of them being extradited.
tim pool
So here's the thing.
States never send law enforcement to other states for law enforcement.
They use the feds for that.
So typically what would happen is Minnesota would file with the federal government and local authorities and say, typically what happens is because we're the United States, Minnesota would say to Florida, hey, this guy's pending charges.
We want you guys to arrest him and then send him our way.
In the circumstance where a state is like, we're not interested in what you're talking about, they go to the feds and say, interstate crime, like this guy fled our state.
He's guilty.
Like he's wanted for charges.
The federal government's not going to intervene.
Minnesota can't send anybody.
That would be like, I mean, we're getting into war territory if Minnesota sends armed men to apprehend a guy in another state.
tate brown
Or at least a cross-state border manhunt is just not an optimal situation.
tim pool
It doesn't happen.
@straighterade
Then you're just waiting at the clock because all you have to do is wait until the midterms or wait until, you know, if Trump leaves office or something were to happen, all they have to do is wait for an administration to come along, somebody that's willing to cooperate.
tim pool
If Trump leaves office.
tate brown
Yeah.
@straighterade
If he leaves office, if he dies, whatever it is.
tate brown
It's for the federal courts to decide.
And so, okay, you escalate it to the Supreme Court and then the precedent is, yeah, this gets hashed out of the federal court.
So they'll just go back to the original ruling, which was like, no, you can't extradite.
tim pool
But you also made another really good point about DeSantis' presidential aspirations, which means in the event, let's say the midterms happen, Democrats can get congressional authority and file subpoenas against this guy and others and then make that move to try and jail him.
The Republicans argue this is a circuitous method by which they're trying to get this guy on charges that are trumped up or whatever.
The point is, DeSantis, if he has any political aspirations, cannot let.
Again, hold on, let me pause.
We don't know the guy would go to Florida.
I'm saying hypothetical state is Florida because Florida is very favorable.
In the event that happens, anyone with political aspirations would be thinking, if I allow this guy to be taken from my state, I will never get elected.
But so now we're in very, very fucked up territory.
Like we're there right now.
@straighterade
So you would think it was wrong to extradite him?
Well, how do you feel about that?
tim pool
I think states should not send personal state law enforcement to other states to apprehend individuals.
@straighterade
I think that even if the federal government won't comply.
unidentified
Yes.
@straighterade
Okay.
Do you think it would be right for the Trump administration to continue standing behind this ICE officer as there are pending charges that he's supposed to be facing in his home state?
tim pool
Well, we don't know if this is his home state.
@straighterade
Or in Minnesota.
tim pool
That's one of the challenges, too.
If he lives there, it's a different picture.
The challenge is now we're getting into the morality of when we would and would not allow action by government.
Just because government has the power of law doesn't mean they're moral or right.
And that's the lesson.
Godwin's law, everybody learned from Nazi Germany.
Just because they passed a law saying they could doesn't mean it was right and they should have and we should have allowed it.
The question then becomes, should we as a moral people allow the prosecution of this individual, which is the moral question which you say yes and we would all say no.
@straighterade
You would say no.
tim pool
This cop should not be prosecuted, no.
@straighterade
And you would think that was moral.
tate brown
Yeah, quite literally, we can't prosecute him.
The only way to prosecute someone for federal action would be political.
tim pool
No, no, I'm talking about morality.
tate brown
That's what I'm saying.
I'm just saying, like, even in the sense of morality, I'm like, oh, I'm not going to advocate for charging someone purely on political motivation.
That's just ridiculous.
@straighterade
Do you think it's immoral for the Trump administration to not want to work with the Minnesota state?
tim pool
I think it is the most moral thing they could do.
@straighterade
To politicize this?
tim pool
They're not politicizing it.
It is politicized.
There's no way around it.
It's political.
@straighterade
It is political, but they are furthering it.
tim pool
So let me put it like this.
The American people voted for these ICE operations.
Immigration was a top issue, and Trump won, and the Republicans won everything.
That doesn't mean everyone in the country agrees with it, but the American voter, democracy, has spoken.
So Trump is now carrying out the will of the American voter.
And the way it works is if you've got a problem with it, you vote in the midterms and you vote in the next election.
In the meantime, this is democracy in action.
To subvert that, as the activists are doing, politicized what the American people voted for.
After the fact, it just is political.
@straighterade
I think there's things in tension with that because, yes, Americans did vote for Donald Trump, and he obviously ran on mass deportation.
So you were co-signing that policy, most likely, if you voted for him.
But I think most Americans also care about the rule of law.
They care about the Constitution.
And so when they voted for that, they assumed that the mass deportation program would be carried out. in conformity with the Constitution.
tim pool
It is.
@straighterade
And there have been, no, there have been multiple instances where people's due process rights are violated.
People are, what's her name?
Oz Turk, Mahmoud Khalil, Kilmar Brego-Garcia.
tim pool
You cited two examples of constitutional movements.
@straighterade
Yeah, they're due process.
Like Kilmar Brego Garcia was labeled a terrorist by the Trump administration before what does due process mean?
Due process means not having, how do I put this into words?
Due process is people being given the chance to make their case.
Incorrect.
tim pool
That's not correct.
@straighterade
Well, hold on before you correct me.
My understanding is that people's due process has to do with them being able to be given a fair shot if the state acts against them.
tim pool
That's not what due process is.
Due process is.
@straighterade
Which is to say, make their case.
It's brought to a judge.
It's not brought to a judge who is in neutral.
tim pool
Due process is not a proper noun.
It's a generic term, literally meaning we can stop saying the phrase due process because people think it's a proper phrase, like a proper noun, like it cites law.
It's literally just a generic phrase meaning the process by which a person has in law.
@straighterade
That's all.
tim pool
What about the Fourth Amendment?
Which part of it?
@straighterade
The due process.
tim pool
Due process of law means in different circumstances, certain people are entitled to certain actions.
@straighterade
Yes.
tim pool
Kilmar Brego Garcia's due process.
Let's avoid him for the time being and talk about.
@straighterade
You asked me for an example.
He's a good example of that.
tim pool
And he had his due process.
@straighterade
No, he had his due process violated.
tim pool
No, he did not.
@straighterade
Yes, he did.
The Supreme Court said he ordered the Trump administration to bring him back because he had been illegally deported.
And he was deported in error, which the Trump administration admitted and then walked back.
tim pool
This is incorrect.
Due process.
So we got to break all this down, okay, to avoid it.
It's going to get clipped either way.
An illegal immigrant enters the country through the southern border, right?
Let's say a guy from Mexico crosses the border, runs full speed 60 miles into the United States.
What is his due process in this circumstance after he is apprehended?
@straighterade
That you are going to be told and read your charges, told and read your rights, and you're going to be given a court date and given the chance to make your case before.
tim pool
That's not what the law or the Constitution says.
The process by which an alien is due, because due process is not a proper phrase, it's a generic phrase, meaning the word due literally means due, and process literally means process.
So we have executive immigration courts, and the judiciary has nothing to do with it.
The process by which an illegal immigrant is due is called expedited removal.
Non-citizens who enter this country illegally do not have the right to a jury trial or a court.
Citizens and resident aliens.
unidentified
No, they don't.
tim pool
That's not correct.
@straighterade
Yes, they do.
tim pool
You are incorrect.
@straighterade
The Fourth Amendment does not refer to citizens.
It refers to people.
tim pool
You are incorrect.
@straighterade
Is that not what the Fourth Amendment says?
tim pool
No, okay, that's sophistry.
Okay.
@straighterade
Sophistry is when you cite the literal words of the Fourth Amendment and the Constitution.
tim pool
You're doing it again.
@straighterade
When I'm talking about the Constitution.
tim pool
I did not say you are not correct on the language and definitions used in the Fourth Amendment.
I'm saying that's the same thing.
@straighterade
You said I was doing sophistry by citing the Constitution.
tim pool
No, I'm saying it's sophistry to imply that the phrase people refer to aliens who run through our country across the border illegally because it does not.
Due process refers to, of your status, what you're entitled to.
@straighterade
What I'm referring to, when I say due process, is a trial court hearing.
Right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects against unreasonable procedures shall not be violated and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause supported by oath or affirmation.
That's not due process.
Okay.
What is your understanding of the process?
phil labonte
Due process.
Due process.
Due process refers to the legal requirement that the government must respect all legal rights owed to a person, ensuring fair treatment in legal proceedings.
It doesn't mean that they get a trial.
tim pool
It doesn't mean that if immigration law, the Constitution reserves immigration issues specifically to the executive branch.
The immigration courts are not part of the judicial branch.
They're part of the executive branch.
And the law states that the Secretary of State has unilateral authority to remove any non-citizen at any point for any reason.
So Oz Turk, specifically, it was the discretion of Marco Rubio under the law to say, your visa has been revoked.
Thank you and have a nice day.
And for that, she is being detained and deported.
That is due process.
@straighterade
Sorry, I've been talking about the Fourth Amendment.
I meant to say the Fifth Amendment.
Nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law.
Hold on, hold on.
tim pool
Who?
Who?
@straighterade
Any individual in which the state of the law?
What does it say?
tim pool
What does it say?
@straighterade
Let me pull up the entire Fifth Amendment.
tim pool
Indeed, because it's important to know what it says.
phil labonte
When you say due process of law, it doesn't mean that everyone gets a court trial with a jury.
It just means that.
@straighterade
No person shall be held to answer for a capital or otherwise infamous crime unless on presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger, nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb, nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law, nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation.
That is the Fifth Amendment.
tim pool
And so now the question is: what does due process mean?
Because you're citing the Fifth Amendment, but you're assuming due process means you get a court hearing.
That's not true.
There are many circumstances which someone doesn't get a court trial, even if they're U.S. citizens.
Like if you're insane, they adjudicate your insanity by paperwork and administrative.
It's called a 5150.
You don't get to go to court over this.
You're just deemed insane and locked up.
That happens.
Does that person have due process?
Indeed.
If you are exhibiting a threat to yourself or others through mental incompetence, defect, or otherwise, you can be 5150.
You don't get to go to court.
You don't get to ask a judge.
It doesn't happen.
@straighterade
I'm not saying that the government can take actions against you before it's all adjudicated in a court of law.
I'm saying that if they do that, then you are able to open up a case against the government or some circumstances.
tim pool
Some individuals have some rights and some do not.
So the way the Constitution works, in Texas, there was a big dispute over the southern border when the Texas State Guard were securing the southern border with concertina wire, and the federal government sent in feds to cut the wire and allow people to cross over illegally.
The issue at play, the reason why Texas sent the immigrants to Martha's Vineyard in New York was because the Constitution grants full immigration authority and foreign relations to the executive branch.
The judiciary has zero authority on instances of foreign affairs.
When a person crosses the border illegally, it doesn't go to a judiciary.
The reason why progressives have been saying judicial warrant over and over again is because what they're saying is outside of the process of the Constitution, we want a court to make an argument against the executive branch.
@straighterade
How do you mean outside of the process of the Constitution?
tim pool
The Constitution gives full authority on foreign affairs to the executive branch.
So what we have are immigration courts, but these immigration courts operate under Trump, not the Supreme Court.
That means immigration courts are not judicial hearings, nor does a non-citizen have a right to a judicial hearing.
They go to federal executive immigration courts.
@straighterade
You still have due process rights even.
tim pool
No, because I'm not saying it's not different, but I'm saying that there are minimum standards of due process that are applied to every single person.
The due process for an illegal immigrant is called expedited removal.
That is, a federal immigration officer gets an order from an executive judge, not a judicial judge, for expedited removal of an individual.
They don't go to court.
There's no jury, and there's no banging a gavel.
The officer can literally, and Obama did this to the tune of, I think, 3 million.
They can literally grab the person, say, give me your ID.
You're a non-citizen, subject to expedited removal.
That is your due process, and send them right back.
@straighterade
You think that I won't say that if that is true, that Obama wasn't violating people's due process rights?
I would say that he is.
That would be another thing.
tim pool
Why?
Because the Constitution makes clear that immigration is under the executive branch, and the process by which a non-citizen is due varies from expedited removal to refugee status hearings.
And so what we've had is under Obama, Bush, Democrat, Republican alike, an executive immigration officer can grant you your due process of, are you a citizen?
No, expedited removal.
That's due process.
@straighterade
That is not under the purview of the executive.
That is a right that is guaranteed to every single individual within the interior of the United States or that the United States takes action against.
tim pool
You're incorrect.
@straighterade
That doesn't hinge on whether or not the president feels like enforcing it.
tim pool
No, no, no, you're incorrect.
Immigration is the purview of the executive branch and immigration courts are not judicial.
They're executive.
@straighterade
No, no, no, I'm not saying that immigration isn't the purview of the executive branch.
I'm saying that due process rights aren't a matter of if the administration decides to grant them to your point on your point on the Fifth Amendment, right?
phil labonte
You brought up the Fifth Amendment.
The act of being in the United States illegally is not considered a capital or otherwise.
tim pool
No, no, no.
I got to look.
I think you're just generally not understanding the way the Constitution and the law works.
So I pulled this up for you.
It's hard to see if I zoom in like this.
Yes, U.S. immigration courts are part of the executive branch.
@straighterade
I can't dispute that, though.
tim pool
Okay, so but this means you're not getting a trial in a court.
Immigration courts, they're called courts, but they're executive functions.
You don't go before a jury or a judge for issues of immigration.
This is not me making an opinion statement.
When someone is not a citizen, the issue of immigration is the executive branch.
They don't give you a hearing.
They snap their fingers.
Now, you can argue it shouldn't be that way, but this is because the Constitution gives issues of foreign affairs solely to the executive branch.
So due process means the legal process under the Constitution by which you are due.
If you are a foreign citizen who enters our country, that is the sole purview of the executive branch to snap their fingers and what you said contradicts what I've said because I already granted that due process looks different for every single individual.
Which would mean that Kilmaro Brego Garcia got his due process.
@straighterade
No.
He had his due process rights violated.
He was sent to Seacott.
He was not supposed to be removed from this country.
tim pool
Says who?
@straighterade
He had, because he already had a stay of removal.
tim pool
He had expedited removal in Daniel.
@straighterade
No, no, no.
He had something designated on his own.
tim pool
Okay, look.
@straighterade
We can totally pull this up.
tim pool
Here's the real challenge we're facing right now.
You don't know these stories, and you're basing it off.
@straighterade
I can't recall all of the details accurately.
I know.
tim pool
Kilmaro Brego-Garcia had an order for expedited removal, but it was stayed because they couldn't remove him to send him back to Guatemala.
@straighterade
A Salvadoran man living in the United States was illegally deported on March 15, 2020.
tim pool
What are you reading?
@straighterade
By the Wikipedia.
By the United States.
tim pool
And then Wikipedia is not a real source.
@straighterade
We can go to the primary source of the USA.
tim pool
Indeed, you should.
You should read the court documents from ICE.
@straighterade
Under the Trump administration, which it called an administrative error, which you disputed.
tim pool
No.
@straighterade
You said it wasn't divided by the law.
tim pool
And administrative error is not a violation of due process.
@straighterade
At the time, he had never been charged with or convicted of a crime in either country.
Despite this, he was imprisoned without trial in the Salvadoran Terrorism Confinement Center Seacot.
tim pool
Oh, liberals are fucking retarded.
I can't do this.
I fucking give up.
@straighterade
You want to respond to that?
tim pool
Why would I get a trial?
What does a trial have to do with an expedited removal in a state to Guatemala?
You don't know this stuff.
And it's so impossible for me to give you a book, a 300-page understanding of what happened.
The problem is I have to deal with people like this who don't know, don't read, and then vote on it.
And no matter how many times, I say 500,000 times, pull the documents and pay attention to.
@straighterade
Because he wasn't just removed to that country.
He was also then placed in effectively a gulag or tortured.
tim pool
Which branch has authority?
@straighterade
He was also enslaved.
tim pool
Which branch has the authority.
@straighterade
I'm not disputing that the fall of the executive question.
I'm not disputing that this falls under the executive branch.
tim pool
So why would he get a trial?
You read a thing that claimed he didn't have a trial.
unidentified
That's a lie.
@straighterade
They were not just trying to deport him illegally to a country that he was not supposed to be removed to, but they were also trying to imprison him, even though he hasn't committed or like he hadn't.
tim pool
The United States did not imprison him.
@straighterade
No, we just deported him illegally, correct?
tim pool
No.
@straighterade
We deported him illegally, and then he was imprisoned and confined at Seacot, which is a torture dungeon.
tim pool
Oh, my God.
You read a bunch of activist AI slop garbage.
Believe it and don't forget to.
@straighterade
So you don't think that Seacott has prolific human rights violations going on?
tate brown
Trump said himself.
tim pool
It's a foreign country.
@straighterade
You said I just read a bunch of like bullshit that made me think this literally on your phone.
tim pool
You just read a bunch of AI slop, garbage activist stuff.
@straighterade
Wikipedia AI slop.
tim pool
Let's stop this.
You read that he was illegally deported without a trial.
I am asking you why he would get a judicial hearing when immigration is the purview of the executive branch.
@straighterade
I said he was imprisoned without trial.
tim pool
Indeed.
@straighterade
Why would you just characterize what I just said?
tim pool
So do we run El Salvador's courts?
@straighterade
No, we don't.
tim pool
Then why would we write that he got a trial or didn't?
It's not related to the executive branch.
It's a foreign country.
@straighterade
He was removed to that country specifically.
tim pool
Is it his home country?
@straighterade
Confined.
It doesn't matter.
tim pool
You don't know, do you?
@straighterade
He was not.
tim pool
Did he have a stay of deportation to El Salvador?
@straighterade
No, I can't remember.
tim pool
He did not.
It was Guatemala.
This is the insufferable thing.
You've taken a strong position on something you just don't understand.
@straighterade
So what does that matter?
tim pool
The executive branch has sole purview for deportation.
@straighterade
He was not supposed to be sent to that country, correct?
tim pool
No.
@straighterade
No, he was supposed to be sent to that country?
unidentified
Yes.
tim pool
He had an order for deportation.
The stay was for Guatemala.
And the Biden administration and Trump, through his own failures, didn't do it properly.
@straighterade
Why was he supposed to be sent to that country?
tim pool
He had an order for immediate deportation.
@straighterade
From the Trump administration.
You think that was right?
tim pool
If the State Department wants to deport somebody, they can, yes.
@straighterade
I'm not asking if they can.
I'm asking if you think it's right.
tim pool
In the specific instance of Kilmar Obergo Garcia, was it right for him to be deported?
The answer is yes.
@straighterade
And it was right for him to be imprisoned at Seacot.
tim pool
I am not El Salvador.
Well, Salvador does it beyond the United States borders.
@straighterade
El Salvador just answers the question.
tim pool
Was it right for him to be imprisoned at Seacot?
If El Salvador finds him to be a criminal, yes, 100%.
So yes, you're saying yes, it was right for him to be imprisoned there.
So if El Salvador finds that their own citizen should go to prison, that's their business.
@straighterade
But he hasn't even been found to have.
That's not us.
tim pool
We're not El Salvador.
@straighterade
You don't have to be El Salvador to have an opinion on this.
tim pool
And my opinion is El Salvador can conduct their affairs as they see fit.
And if they determine he should go to prison, he should.
@straighterade
But they didn't determine that he was just put there.
tim pool
They did.
They put him in prison.
@straighterade
He was just put there.
tim pool
Because El Salvador decided he should be.
@straighterade
Yeah, but did he have a fair trial?
tim pool
Does China have fair trials?
@straighterade
I didn't ask if China has fair trials, and that's completely irrelevant.
tim pool
Did he have a fair trial?
If he had an El Salvadoran fair trial or not, I'm not El Salvador, nor do I think that you should invade El Salvador or Venezuela.
@straighterade
No, if he had a fair trial, and yet you'd be fine with him being imprisoned.
tim pool
He did have a fair trial.
tate brown
El Salvador's policy is very clear.
Anyone with gang affiliation is going to get in prison in Seacot, and he was found for a gang affiliation.
That's their law.
@straighterade
What was the gang affiliation that he was found of?
tim pool
Tran de Aragon.
tate brown
Tendi Araga.
Tende Aragua.
@straighterade
Actually, they accused him of being part of MS-13.
tim pool
Was it?
@straighterade
He's also credibly found.
Like, do you remember when Trump was the Trump administration was saying Photoshop MS-13?
tim pool
Yeah.
Because Trump was a fighter.
@straighterade
You just said that he was in Chanda Awau.
tim pool
I got it wrong.
I was wrong about that.
@straighterade
Yeah, okay.
So what did he do then?
What crime did he commit?
tim pool
That's up to El Salvador to decide.
@straighterade
Okay.
He's not a member of MS-13.
tim pool
I don't care.
I literally don't care.
He's not American either.
So you don't care.
@straighterade
If somebody is imprisoned in Seacot, even if they've not committed a crime, and even if they've not been given the process of law or had a trial.
phil labonte
He was here illegally.
I don't care.
tim pool
No, We're not talking about it.
We're talking about El Salvador.
For the same reason, I don't think we should remove Maduro.
I don't give a fuck what El Salvador does with their own citizens.
I am not El Salvador.
I don't want to invade El Salvador.
I don't want to impose American hegemonic democratic principles on El Salvador or Venezuela or Afghanistan, Iran, China, or Russia.
So right now, what I can't stand is this argument that El Salvador imprisoned a guy.
I don't give a fuck what they did.
He's El Salvadoran in El Salvador.
China's imprisoning Uyghur Muslims and raping them and forcing them to get abortions.
That's miserably evil.
We can say we don't want to do trade deals with them.
That's fine.
The U.S. went in and removed Maduro, and liberals are furious about it.
Yet at the same time, they're arguing that we should impose American hegemonic principles on El Salvador.
I'm sick of it.
My principles are pretty dang simple.
I'm American.
I don't give a flying F what El Salvador, China, or these other countries are doing with their people.
I can have moral opposition to it, but I'm not going to demand that we send our military or use the weight to force them to change their institutions.
That being said, I think we can sanction China over the rape of the Uyghur Muslims.
We shouldn't be trading with people that brutally rape women and force them to get abortions.
We can make an argument that we should cut off our trade deals with El Salvador because of Seacot.
My point ultimately is.
@straighterade
So if you only care about what the American government is doing, then do you agree that he should not have been sent there?
tim pool
He is not an American citizen.
And as someone who is not an American citizen, he should go home.
@straighterade
But that is legal government.
tim pool
He doesn't have legal status here.
He came here illegally.
And there is no obligation for the American people to allow a criminal to be here.
@straighterade
Where or how the United States government deports individuals?
tim pool
Absolutely not.
@straighterade
You don't care if their due process rights are violated.
You don't care if the government lies about that.
kaity passe
There is a process for which the government is not a personality.
@straighterade
I'm asking you about those things.
No, no, no.
I'm asking if you're not going to be able to do that.
tim pool
If someone comes here from China illegally, they violate our laws and then seek to subvert the will of the American voter.
They should be arrested for the crime they committed.
And you know what it is?
Imagine if someone broke into your house and the worst thing you did to them was give them a ride home.
And it's like a stupid thing to argue.
Like a guy broke into my house and is stealing my food and I'm like, hey, hey, hey, whoa, would you like a ride home?
So that's what we do.
A guy comes here from El Salvador illegally.
We issue an order for deportation.
We send him home.
Then everyone's going a legal order because he was not supposed to.
It was a legal order of deportation.
And he had a stay for removal from the country of Guatemala due to a rival gang.
Where this goes is very confusing and weird because the argument was made in the media that he had to stay of deportation to El Salvador when in fact it was Guatemala.
Now, some have argued it was a typo in the initial stay, but I'm like, well, if that's the case, when we read, it says Guatemala.
So he can be sent back to El Salvador.
Now, the issue of the administrative error was actually disputed in the Trump administration with Stephen Miller saying no, as he is a member of MS-13 executive purview on matters of national security.
@straighterade
He was never found to be a member of MS-13.
tim pool
He was found by a court, yes, twice.
@straighterade
Which court?
tim pool
There's an immigration court that asserted two times that he was wearing MS-13.
@straighterade
Making an assertion is different than them actually having evidence that he was part of MS-13.
tim pool
He doesn't get judicial trials in an immigration executive branch court.
@straighterade
Do you acknowledge that it's two different things between actually proving that somebody is part of a gang versus somebody making the assertion that they are?
tim pool
What does that have to do with what we're talking about?
unidentified
You're changing the subject.
@straighterade
You just said that this person is a confirmed member of MS-13.
tim pool
An immigration.
You found that he was a member of MS-13.
@straighterade
You said they asserted that he was.
That's different than them finding that he was.
tim pool
There's no trial for this in the executive branch.
Executive is action, not judiciary.
@straighterade
And this was the other thing.
This is Supreme Court says Trump officials should have wrongly deported Maryland man.
The Supreme Court has ordered the Trump admin to facilitate the return to the U.S. of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, a Maryland man who was mistakenly taken to El Salvador.
tim pool
A Maryland manager is in custody there.
He's not a Maryland man.
He's an El Salvadoran who was illegally living in Maryland.
@straighterade
So if you live in Maryland for 10 years, you can't be considered part of a Maryland man.
tim pool
No, but the language is being used to manipulate the general public because the real issue is a man from El Salvador came here illegally, had an order for removal, argued that he'd be killed by a Guatemalan gang, got a state of removal to not go back to Guatemala.
Stephen Miller and the Trump administration argued that an immigration court twice having found him an affiliate of MS-13, he was an entry-level guy.
They were going to deport him back to his home country.
Then when he got there, El Salvador decided that because they thought he was a member of a gang, they imprisoned him.
@straighterade
Even though he was praying, even though there's no evidence of that?
tim pool
It doesn't matter what El Salvador thinks.
We're not El Salvador.
That's it.
End of story.
I'm not going to make an argument on what Ghana thinks about.
@straighterade
He's gang-affiliated.
tim pool
You are just saying things to be tried.
@straighterade
And you're saying that because we're not in El Salvador, we can't have an opinion on it, obviously.
tim pool
No, you can have an opinion on it.
But you're asking me about, do you believe that the U.S. should assert judicial authority over El Salvador?
@straighterade
How do you mean?
tim pool
Do you think that we should force other countries to adhere to our frame of law?
@straighterade
It depends on the context.
tim pool
Okay.
Should a.
@straighterade
I do believe that we should not be deporting individuals to countries where they are going to face ridiculous human rights abuses.
tim pool
Going to prison as a human rights abuse?
@straighterade
Yes.
If you have never been able to do that.
tim pool
Going to prison as a human rights abuse.
@straighterade
When you have not been actually found guilty of a crime, when you've not actually committed any crime, when you've not been given process rights are violated, that you don't know that his process.
tim pool
Okay.
kaity passe
You don't know what you're doing.
tim pool
We have to pause real quick because you keep saying due process.
@straighterade
No, this is the other thing.
tim pool
A brief issue.
@straighterade
The court cited with liberals right now.
tim pool
That's not what the word means.
@straighterade
The order properly requires the government to facilitate a Brego Garcia's release from custody in El Salvador.
And to ensure that his case is handled as it would have been had he not been improperly sent to El Salvador, the Supreme Court said in its ruling, it was a 9-0 ruling.
Even Trump's appointees agree that it's not that they didn't violate it.
tim pool
That's okay.
We are in a state of political adjudication with back and forth.
The dude's got two more pending removals.
Now he's going to Ghana.
Where's he going to Eritrea?
tate brown
One of those.
tim pool
I mean, like, the amount of things on Kilmar, Barbara Garcia are ludicrous, right?
The amount of...
@straighterade
I agree, but not for the same reasons.
tim pool
Yeah.
Liberals are defending a guy who's not a citizen and they're lying about it.
They repeatedly and don't be wrong, conservatives are fucking retarded.
@straighterade
Liberals are defending issues.
tim pool
Republicans come out and go to the bank.
Non-citizens don't get due process.
And that was never true.
They're just dumb.
Okay.
Due process means under law, you, in your circumstances, what are you do in the courts that they must adhere to?
Immigration courts are part of the executive branch and the executive branch does not have trials for these people.
A judge just said, goodbye.
Judicial courts can have trials or bench hearings.
Liberals don't understand any of these things.
And more importantly, I would say the proselytizers at the highest level just say whatever they have to to justify their ideological whims.
The point is, America should be America and should not be enforcing its will on other countries.
And if you are not from this country, the State Department has sole discretion to remove you from this country.
End of story.
Even permanent residents under the law can have their permanent residency revoked in fingersnap by the Secretary of the State.
So this whole argument is fake.
And it started with a conversation around him having his due process rights violated.
@straighterade
You're definitely not going to be afraid of the fact that it's not a good question.
tim pool
Because liberals think due process means jury trial.
@straighterade
i have a question for you though but so you don't think that someone entering the country really quick i will answer your question I'm just saying that the Trump administration had admitted that they had made an administrative error in sending him to El Salvador to Seacot.
And you are even going to pause real quick.
And you're going further to defend all of that.
tim pool
They retracted that?
@straighterade
Okay.
tim pool
Hold on, hold on.
They retracted the administrative error statement?
@straighterade
Yeah, they walked it back because they're trying to cover their ass.
tim pool
What exactly did they say in the retraction?
@straighterade
Trump administration admits Maryland man sent to El Salvador prison by mistake.
The Trump admin is getting blowback for confirmed and potential errors in its rush to deport hundreds of men to El Salvador last month.
On Monday night, immigration officials admitted to deporting a Maryland man to El Salvador due to a quote-unquote administrative error.
Kilmar Brego-Garcia, who lived with his U.S. citizen wife and child, was identified as being on one of the three deportation flights to El Salvador last month that are the subject of several lawsuits.
Immigration advocates claim those flown to El Salvador did not receive due process.
The admin used the three flights to quickly deport over 300 men accused of being members of MS13.
tim pool
I'm trying to interrupt you, but just because I want to just get to the point, it's what did they say in their retraction?
phil labonte
Look.
tim pool
Let's find the retraction.
So I'll tell you.
It was an administrative official, not in the highest level of the cabinet, who said there was an administrative error here.
That was a singular statement by a low-level official.
Probably about a week after this, the highest level of Trump's cabinet said they were incorrect.
We have asserted executive authority on national security issues for expedited removal.
That is our purview.
Now, by all means, this is to be adjudicated.
And right now, the Kilmar Brego-Garcia thing is the most convoluted bullshit of a story imaginable because he's got like five orders of deportation now, including to like literally, is it Eritrea?
Or was it Ghana?
What ridiculous country?
I don't know.
tate brown
It's just like it was a JV one.
It was a JV country.
tim pool
It's just a ridiculous thing.
The point is, we are not dealing with functions of the Constitution and law, which was the initial argument you asked about constitutional deportations.
We are dealing with hyper-partisan justifications and the liberals making an argument about due price in foreign countries and the right making an argument about national security threats.
One thing remains.
In the truest sense of what this law was codified to be and written down as, due process in immigration courts does not involve a judicial hearing, judicial warrant, nor jury or bench trial.
Okay, immigration courts are a singular executive official identified as an immigration judge, but they're not judicial, stamping something and saying expedited removal.
End of story, that is due process.
@straighterade
So in his court filing on Monday, the Trump admin said ICE was aware of his protection from removal to El Salvador, but still deported Abrego Garcia because of an administrative error.
An ICE official called his deportation to El Salvador an oversight in a statement submitted to the court on Monday.
Robert Cerna ICE's acting field office director of enforcement and removal operations wrote that it was carried out in good faith based on the existence of a final order of removal and Abrego Garcia's reported membership of MS-13.
The admin argued against his return to the U.S., citing alleged gang ties and claiming that he is a danger to the community.
They also argue that the courts lack jurisdiction in the matter because Abrego Garcia is no longer in U.S. custody.
The admin wrote that Abrego Garcia's attorneys, quote, do not argue that the United States can exercise its will over a foreign sovereign.
And most they ask for is a court order that the United States can treat or control a close ally.
tim pool
Now please read the retraction.
Can you read the retraction?
@straighterade
No, I should retract my own claim because they actually did not issue a retraction.
But what they did, what they did, as far as I could tell, I thought they had.
It seems like what they did is just double down on defending their decisions, even though they had admitted it was an error.
tate brown
So do you think the State Department reserves the right to deport any illegal purely for being here illegally?
@straighterade
I believe so, yes.
tate brown
Yeah, because it's like, that's part of the problem with the abrego thing is it's like.
@straighterade
There are legal means to remove people from the country.
unidentified
Right.
@straighterade
They don't need to violate people's due process rights to do so.
tate brown
So for able to do it.
@straighterade
If somebody isn't gang, if it's error, it should be easy to remove illegally.
tim pool
They did.
You're right the first time.
They issued a retraction, DHS.gov.
This is just one of the examples of an individual that is an MS-13 gang member, multiple charges and encounters with individuals here, trafficking in his background, was found with other MS-13 gang members.
Very dangerous person.
And what the liberal left and fake news are doing to turn him into a media darling is sickening.
The retraction here in this video from Stephen Miller was that he said, let me see if I can pull the actual, Trisha McLaughlin reaffirmed the MS-13 terrorist gang member is where he belongs.
I think this illegal alienation.
@straighterade
It sounds like the opposite of a retraction.
So I shouldn't have said that they retracted it, but they did.
Defend their decision.
donald j trump
Very low-rated anchor at CBC.
kaitlan collins
Would you plan to ask President Ridley to help return the man who your administration says was mistakenly deported?
The man who was mistakenly deported to El Salvador?
donald j trump
Well, let me ask Pam, would you ask to answer that question?
pam bondi
Sure, President.
First and foremost, he was illegally in our country.
He had been illegally in our country.
And in 2019, two courts, an immigration court and an appellate immigration court, ruled that he was a member of MS-13 and he was illegally in our country.
Right now, it was a paperwork.
It was additional paperwork had needed to be done.
That's up to El Salvador if they want to return him.
That's not up to us.
The Supreme Court ruled, President, that if, as El Salvador wants to return him, this is international matters, foreign affairs, if they wanted to return him, we would facilitate it, meaning provide a plane.
kaitlan collins
So will you return him?
donald j trump
And you are doing a great job.
unidentified
Thank you.
Thanks.
tim pool
Wait a minute.
donald j trump
Can you just also respond to that question?
Because, you know, it's asked by CNN and they always ask it with a slant because they're totally slanting because they don't know what's happening.
That's why nobody's watching them.
But would you answer that question also, please?
stephen miller
Yes, gladly.
So as Pam mentioned, there's an illegal alien from El Salvador.
So with respect to you, he's a citizen of El Salvador.
So it's very arrogant even for American media to suggest that we would even tell El Salvador how to handle their own citizens as a starting point.
As two immigration courts found that he was a member of MS-13, when President Trump declared MS-13 to be a foreign terrorist organization, that meant that he was no longer eligible under federal law, which I'm sure you know, you're very familiar with the INA, that he was no longer eligible for any form of immigration relief in the United States.
So he had a deportation order that was valid, which meant that under our law, he's not even allowed to be present in the United States and had to be returned because of the foreign terrorist designation.
This issue was then, by a district court judge, completely inverted, and a district court judge tried to tell the administration that they had to kidnap a citizen of El Salvador and fly him back here.
That issue was raised to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court said the district court order was unlawful and its main components were reversed 9-0 unanimously, stating clearly that neither Secretary of State nor the President could be compelled by anybody to forcibly retrieve a citizen of El Salvador from El Salvador, who again is a member of MS-13, which as I'm sure you understand, rapes little girls, murders women, murders children, is engaged in the most barbaric activities in the world.
And I can promise you, if he was your neighbor, you would move right away.
kaitlan collins
So you don't plan to ask him?
tim pool
So the point is, initially, an ICE official said that it was an administrative error.
The Trump administration cabinet said after the FTO designation of MS-13, that disqualified him from the immigration stay to Guatemala that he had said they had no evidence to be even designating him as a terrorist.
@straighterade
It doesn't matter if they don't have evidence before they labeled the city.
They have two courts.
tim pool
Two courts ruled that he was MS-13.
@straighterade
So it doesn't matter to you that they had no evidence that he was actually courts.
tim pool
It doesn't matter what you're saying.
unidentified
Two courts are not that.
tim pool
He was associated with known MS-13 gang members outside of MS-13 gang terrorists.
@straighterade
Knowing somebody within MS-13 means that you are part of MS-13 yourself.
tim pool
Do you think if two courts rule that you are, that's enough or not enough?
@straighterade
I'm sorry.
You didn't answer my question.
So just knowing somebody in a gang, that means that you are also part of that gang.
tim pool
He was, no, he was in the gang.
@straighterade
You said that he is associated.
I said, what's the evidence for that?
And you said, well, he associated with the game.
tim pool
The courts found that he was wearing their gang colors, wearing their gang clothes.
He was known by informants to be, what's the term?
His rank?
Do you remember?
Let me pull it up.
He was a lieutenant.
No, no, no, no.
It's a provisionary.
It's a Spanish word.
Let me figure out what the...
There's a word for the lowest level.
And is this it right here?
I think I got it.
Was it?
unidentified
Officer Basilan?
tim pool
No, I am not a wrong person.
unidentified
Chico.
tim pool
Was it Checo?
unidentified
Checo.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
tim pool
He was a Checo in MS-13.
Meaning he was like a probationary entry-level member.
Two courts found this.
I don't understand.
I got it.
I got it.
Okay, let's just roll with it.
So the point is this.
We have immigration courts for a reason.
Let's see, member of Princess George County.
This is the arrest report, I think.
Which one?
This?
Yeah, Chico.
Chico.
He was a Chico known as Maniaco and MS-13 in their Sailors clique.
Let's see.
Let's see.
Officers interviewed with Jose Guillaramo Domingo's during the interview, officers observed tattoos and skulls covering the eyes of his mouth.
Blah, See no evil, hear no evil, say no evil.
He has a tattoo of a devil on his left leg.
This presents power within MS-13.
Officers made contact with a past proven and reliable source of information who advised Dominguez the officer.
@straighterade
It was indicative of the Hispanic gang culture.
tim pool
An active MS-13 gang member with the Sailors clique, the rank of Chico in the moniker of Maniaco.
@straighterade
With his button.
And that wearing the Chicago hat represents a member and good standing with MS-13.
tim pool
Officers that interviewed Kilmar Armando Obergo Garcia during the interview as officers, he observed he's wearing a bull's hat and a hoodie with rolls of money covering his eyes, ears, and mouth of the presidents on the separated denominations.
Officers know such clothing to be indicative of Hispanic gang culture.
The meaning of the clothing is to represent they oy calar.
See no evil, hear no evil, say no evil.
Wearing the bull's hat represents that they are a member and good standing of MS-13.
Officers, I did say Chicago Bulls, wearing the officers contacted the past proven a reliable source of information who advised Kilmar Obrego Garcia as an active member of MS-13 with the Westerns click.
The confidential source further advised that he is the rank of Chico with the moniker of Chele.
Officers interviewed Jason Josu, is how you said, Ramirez Herrera during the interview.
They were unable to determine his gang affiliation.
Officers know MS-13 gang members are only allowed to hang around other members or prospects for the gang.
Officers will continue, blah, blah, blah.
@straighterade
The point is no criminal history.
tim pool
What do you mean?
There's two witness testimonies corroborating things up.
@straighterade
That he's wearing certain clothes that they're trying to say is synonymous with MS-13 and Hispanic gangs.
tim pool
Is that evidence?
@straighterade
No.
tim pool
Yes, it is.
Is it proof?
No.
Is it evidence?
Yes.
@straighterade
Oh, sorry, that's what I should say.
unidentified
Right.
tim pool
And is it poor if there was evidence?
@straighterade
Is it good evidence?
tim pool
No, there is.
@straighterade
No.
Is it evidence?
unidentified
Yes.
@straighterade
Is it good evidence?
No.
Is it proof?
tim pool
Absolutely not.
This is why we can't have a title.
@straighterade
The evidence is that he wears a Chicago bull's hat and has skull tattoos.
You know that's the same thing.
tim pool
He has the see no evil, hear no evil, say no evil tattoo.
@straighterade
And that means that he's in a gang?
tim pool
That's an MS-13 gang tattoo.
@straighterade
So if I got, if you left that tattoo tomorrow, that would mean you're an MS-13.
tim pool
No, but it likely is affiliation, especially if you're hanging out with MS-13 gang titles.
tate brown
Like all of his boys are in MS-13.
tim pool
No, but he said he was hanging out with MS-13, but he's not a member of the game.
tate brown
No, they kicked him out.
Yeah, he's like, but he's still friends.
Yeah, you're a little too bad.
@straighterade
But if you got it, it wouldn't be available.
tim pool
Did you know that if you wear black and gold in Chicago, you'll get shot?
@straighterade
So if you had that tattoo, it wouldn't be evidence that you're an MS-13.
tim pool
It would be evidence, yes.
Evidence and proof are different things.
kaity passe
Right.
@straighterade
I agree with you.
tim pool
So you said before there was no evidence.
@straighterade
You're saying it's evidence and proof that he's an MS-13.
That's the claim that you made.
tim pool
No, no, no.
Let's just be clear for everybody to make sure we're closing things up.
@straighterade
Yeah, you think that wearing a Chicago bulls cap and having a case of the case?
tim pool
Before you said there was no evidence.
That doesn't mean that you're an MS-13.
Let's try and be clear here.
@straighterade
Yeah, I said there's no evidence in the library.
Please stop.
tim pool
Please stop so I can make the point.
@straighterade
And I said it's not evidence.
tim pool
Before you said there was no evidence, and perhaps that was a misspeak, but now we recognize there is no evidence.
@straighterade
It was a misspeak.
unidentified
Sorry.
tim pool
Okay.
@straighterade
Just told you, family evidence.
tim pool
Two immigration courts determined the evidence was sufficient to prove he was a member of MS-13.
Right?
@straighterade
Do you agree with them?
tim pool
Doesn't matter.
@straighterade
Do you agree with them?
tim pool
Yes, yes, but it doesn't matter.
@straighterade
Why do you agree with them?
Because his clothing is.
tim pool
Law enforcement.
@straighterade
Even though, again, no criminal history, no testimonies.
tim pool
We're not raising history.
He was caught trafficking people.
@straighterade
No.
tim pool
He's not standing.
@straighterade
He's been accused of trafficking individuals because he was stopped.
There was a traffic stop.
tim pool
He had a bunch of people from Mexico driving to Maryland that they said they were doing for work.
@straighterade
And he was a bull.
Yeah, but he's not been.
That's still a good idea.
tim pool
Hold on.
He's not actually.
This is, again, off the stage.
@straighterade
And if that's your standard for human trafficking, Greg Abbott and Ron DeSantis moving those illegal immigrants around the country to Martha's village.
That is also yours.
tim pool
Changing the subject.
Did two courts find him to be members of MS-13?
@straighterade
To my understanding, there's court documents that have been submitted, and this is the evidence that he's in MS-13.
tim pool
Did two courts rule him to be.
You are wrong.
They did.
Two courts did.
@straighterade
Court documents saying judges.
tim pool
He is.
And then he appealed, and another judge said, yes, he is.
@straighterade
Which judge?
tim pool
Okay, let's pull it up.
My God.
Sophistry, sophistry, sophistry.
phil labonte
Judge.
tim pool
DHS.
@straighterade
I got it.
The judge who presided over his 2019 case said that based on the confidential information, there was sufficient evidence to support Mr. Breger-Garcia's gang membership.
That finding was later upheld by another judge.
unidentified
Okay.
tim pool
So do you agree that two judges found to be a member of MS-13?
@straighterade
Yes.
tim pool
Okay.
Then, based on the FTO designation, he supersedes the stay from CSIS.
@straighterade
Based on the evidence that has been presented to the public, he could admit that.
That is a very, yeah, but that's a very, if his due process rights are on the right.
tim pool
No, hold on.
@straighterade
That's a very tenuous connection, in my opinion.
tim pool
No, hold on.
After, so now that two courts, two, two judges, actually, it was an appellate judge, I believe it was three.
So it's initially one, then three.
After they found that he was, and then maybe they were wrong.
Maybe they were wrong.
Okay, this gives the federal government the authority to deport him under the FTO designation, which is what Stephen Miller asserted.
He then gets sent to his home country.
There's no appeal after that.
What El Salvador does with their own citizens.
@straighterade
He's reported an error.
tim pool
No, he was.
@straighterade
He actually led to the circumstances where he could not.
tim pool
He was not in error because I already showed you Stephen Miller pointing out that that was an ICE official and they were wrong.
And under the FTO designation, Stephen Miller says something that means that it's true.
Because Trump, did Trump declare MS-13 a foreign terrorist organization?
@straighterade
Yeah, I believe so.
tim pool
He did.
And under the INA, you can remove, there's no immigration protections.
You are disqualified immediately upon that designation because immigration courts are executive, not judiciary.
When that happens, they say the executive stay you were granted by our officials is hereby void, and they can deport him, and that's what they did.
@straighterade
So you think it's fair that he's deported in an error?
And then after he's removed, after he's remotely deported to another country, he was not deported.
And we say we no longer have jurisdiction, even though he shouldn't have been put there in the first place.
And then the Supreme Court says that's correct.
He needs to remember that.
tim pool
This is why we say you're just a liar.
Why am I liar?
We've already concluded it wasn't an error.
@straighterade
No, you didn't.
tim pool
You said two judges confirmed it was MS-13, right?
@straighterade
Yeah.
tim pool
Okay.
And MS-13 is an FTO.
Foreign terrorist organization.
@straighterade
The Trump administration designates this as such.
tim pool
The immigration and naturalization allows for the disqualification of a stay of foreign terrorist organizations is a bit strange to me.
If you want to argue the law should be changed, take it up with Congress.
Don't then say it was an error when we've already shown you under the law it was not.
@straighterade
What am I supposed to take up with Congress?
tim pool
That you want the law to change.
The INA says that a foreign terrorist does not is disqualified from immigration retrieve.
@straighterade
Do you think it's correct that he's designating cartels as foreign terrorist organizations?
tim pool
That's an opinion.
kaity passe
No, I'm asking.
tim pool
This is an opinion question, immaterial to the conversation we're having.
@straighterade
So you think that it's correct to designate cartels as foreign terrorist organizations?
tim pool
We are not talking about that.
We're talking about whether Kilmaro Brego-Garcia was lawfully deported.
@straighterade
Can you just answer that question?
If you think it's correct that MS-13 was designated a foreign terrorist organization, you don't know.
tim pool
Why not?
I don't know.
I don't know if about it.
@straighterade
Okay, but that is the basis that's being used to deny this person due process under your argument.
tim pool
I don't understand why no matter how many times we explain due process, you don't understand what it is.
@straighterade
Trump administration says this is a foreign terrorist.
tim pool
Did Kilmar Obrego-Garcia get two court hearings?
@straighterade
There were two judges that reviewed evidence that said that there's sufficient evidence to say that he is part of MS-13 within his lawyer.
Is that due process?
tim pool
Is that due process?
@straighterade
Yes.
I'm not saying that he has not been subjected.
He has not any due process.
No, you can have due process violated in one area and then honored in another.
That's not contradictory.
tim pool
So two courts find him to be a member of MS-13.
@straighterade
Back in 2019.
tim pool
Immigration courts are under the executive branch, not the judiciary.
@straighterade
That was back in 1999.
tim pool
The executive branch then designates MS-13 an FTO.
Then that nullifies an executive stay to deportation to Guatemala that he had, but they didn't send him to Guatemala anyway.
They sent him to El Salvador.
After the fact, it's up to El Salvador what to do with an El Salvadoran.
Sounds like due process to me.
@straighterade
Due process is when you deport someone in error, which you dispute.
tim pool
We just agreed it wasn't an error because you said he had two courts.
What was the error?
@straighterade
In 2019, in 2019 he was found.
tim pool
What was the error?
@straighterade
The error is that he was not supposed to be deported to that country to Seacot.
tim pool
To Guatemala, you mean?
@straighterade
To El Salvador.
tim pool
No, the stay was for Guatemala.
The stay was for Guatemala.
@straighterade
What does that mean that he was supposed to be deported to El Salvador?
tim pool
The stay was that he couldn't be sent to Guatemala.
@straighterade
Can you hear me?
I said that that does not mean that he was supposed to be deported to El Salvador.
tim pool
They can deport him.
They can deport him at any country.
@straighterade
I'm not saying that they can't deport him.
I'm saying that he was supposed to be.
tim pool
If the stay of deportation was to Guatemala and he was sent to El Salvador, what's the sent to a prison in El Salvador?
No, El Salvador imprisoned him.
We didn't send him there.
@straighterade
This is what I mean where it ends up being like circumstances to justify itself, which is that they put him in a situation where he is deported to El Salvador and imprisoned there, and then we declined to have jurisdiction.
tim pool
What was the error?
@straighterade
The Supreme Court said 9-0 that he was not given adequate due process rights to make a claim against the government once they had been trying to imprison him, even though he had not actually been found guilty of a crime.
tim pool
What was the error?
@straighterade
That he had not been found guilty of a crime yet.
Nonetheless, he was imprisoned to an El Salvador.
tim pool
That wasn't the error.
You said he was deported in error.
What was the error?
@straighterade
The error is that he had a stay of removal and he was not supposed to be deported.
tim pool
Except the stay of removal, according to the INA, is disqualified upon foreign terrorist designation.
@straighterade
But you already have to change the law, take up the corporations.
Earlier in this, you would not say that you think it's correct for drug cartels to be designated as foreign terrorist organizations.
tim pool
I don't know.
@straighterade
But that's the basic idea.
tim pool
Is that why I said that?
Because you're changing the subject.
@straighterade
That's the basis.
You're changing the subject.
It's part of the subject.
If I'm the basis for you saying that he ought to be deported.
tim pool
If you want to change the law, take it up with Congress.
Take it up with Congress.
Congress changes laws.
Right now, the INA says the president has the authority to designate an FTO.
And if you do, your reprieve, immigration reprieve is disqualified.
That is all in the law.
There's no error there.
And you think all of that's correct?
It's factually correct.
@straighterade
Do you think all that's moral?
tim pool
Morally correct is take up the law.
So you think all that is.
This is ad hominem.
@straighterade
Really quick.
tim pool
Ad hominin.
@straighterade
How is that an ad hominem?
tim pool
I'm just going to say that every time you do this, the question is, was there an error?
And we've concluded the answer is no.
@straighterade
There was an error.
Just because Stephen Miller says that there was no error.
Do you want me to reread it again?
I can reread it again.
tim pool
It's like you're intentional, like you're agreeing with everything, but then failing to connect the dots.
@straighterade
So do you want me to reread it again?
tim pool
Reread what?
Your post hoc out of context statement?
We've already concluded that Trump did designate the cartels foreign terrorist organizations.
You asked me a moral question on it, which I ignored because it's not material to the question of whether there was a functional administrative error to which the Trump administration.
@straighterade
What's a functional administrative error?
tim pool
An administrative error that causes to the function of immigration?
And there wasn't one.
There wasn't.
The FTO nullified the stay to Guatemala, which he wasn't sent to anyway.
@straighterade
So you do realize that Stephen Miller saying that doesn't undermine the, again, ICE calls deportation oversight and it's court filing on the market.
tim pool
Stephen Miller saying that was the retraction I told you they made.
@straighterade
He said ICE was aware of his protection from removal to El Salvador, but still deported Obrego Garcia because of an administrative error.
It's like an ICE official called his deportation an oversight in a statement submitted to the court on Monday.
tim pool
And then they retracted it, which I showed you.
Stephen Miller's statements aren't law.
It's evidence of the administration retracting a statement from an ICE official at the highest levels.
@straighterade
They targeted him for deportation and removal, even though he already was.
tim pool
That was a long time ago.
He had an order for deportation years ago.
@straighterade
Deportation and removal.
tim pool
Years ago.
@straighterade
Obviously.
tim pool
Then he was granted a stay.
He was granted a stay after the fact of deportation to Guatemala, which means he could have been deported anywhere.
And under the law, he was supposed to leave himself.
So there's no error, but I think you're just saying these things because it's political tribesmanship.
phil labonte
It's ill.
@straighterade
So you, but you think this is all moral?
tim pool
See, that's a totally different question.
Do you want to answer this conversation and go to the next one?
@straighterade
You can answer the question first.
tim pool
All right, so let's just do this.
Previous conversation is concluded.
Now let's talk about whether or not it is moral to deport non-citizens.
100%.
@straighterade
Do you think it was moral how Kilmar Brego-Garcia was treated?
unidentified
Yes.
tim pool
Yes?
It was actually the utmost of morality.
@straighterade
And even though he had not actually been a different conversation.
Why?
How is that unrelated to that?
tate brown
You already granted that being here illegally in and of itself is grounds for deportation.
@straighterade
When did I grant?
tate brown
When I asked you as being here illegally in and of itself grounds for deportation.
@straighterade
I'm saying I said that the government has the ability to deport anybody at any time, correct?
But that does not mean that they can't come up with ludicrous reasons to deport someone, in my opinion.
kaity passe
The question I was going to ask you before was why wouldn't someone like Kilmar have gone through the process the right way?
Are you okay with him not going through the process and just coming here illegally?
@straighterade
No, I don't think it's good that people come here illegally.
Then we can't do that.
But just because.
No, we can't.
kaity passe
Wouldn't that be the first crime?
Wouldn't that be the first problem?
@straighterade
No.
kaity passe
For everything else that you guys were just debating?
@straighterade
No, because the reality is that just because you commit a crime or you come here illegally or you cross a port of entry illegally, even though the majority of illegal immigration is a result of people overseeing visas, it's not even because they're illegally entering into the United States.
It means that they have legal means to come into the United States and then something expires.
They're here legally.
But if they cross a port of entry illegally, that does not mean that the state can do whatever they want in response to that.
phil labonte
The Secretary of State has total authority to deport people.
Yeah, absolutely.
@straighterade
No, I didn't say that they don't have total authority.
So that they can't do anything that they want in the process of doing that.
phil labonte
When you have total authority, you can say, okay, we're just going to send you out.
Absolutely.
tate brown
But you're portraying it like we are throwing him in a gulag, which is not what's happening.
@straighterade
You don't think she thought it's a gulag?
tate brown
That's not us.
phil labonte
That's El Salvador.
unidentified
And also, for the recording of the city, we facilitated, we literally put him on a plan.
@straighterade
We put him on a plane.
unidentified
Right.
@straighterade
And then he was immediately landed in El Salvador and then transferred to that prison.
tate brown
If he knew that the gulags were that bad, maybe he should have gotten his paperwork done.
@straighterade
You're acknowledging, though, that he was put on a plane by the United States government.
tim pool
They put him on the plane.
@straighterade
And then put in an El Salvador prison.
And you're saying that that's not the United States government.
tate brown
He was deported to El Salvador.
@straighterade
Are you saying that that's not the actions of the United States government doing that?
tate brown
Putting him in a gulag, supposedly, is not, that's nothing to do with us.
@straighterade
Even though our plane took him to the El Salvador prison that he was imprisoned at.
tate brown
The plane took him to San Salvador.
tim pool
It took him to an airport.
unidentified
And then El Salvador's law enforcement was exchanged.
@straighterade
So were it not for the United States government flying him to El Salvador and then him being transported to the United States?
tate brown
Because we deported someone you got and they get by a lot of people.
phil labonte
This is not an argument.
Custody was transferred to El Salvador and El Salvador to put him in transportation.
@straighterade
They facilitated his imprisonment in El Salvador in San Salvador.
phil labonte
No, they facilitated his transport and then the changing hands of custody.
The United States facilitated the transport to El Salvador.
They then gave him to the authorities in El Salvador.
Then the authorities in El Salvador were in the same place.
@straighterade
So we cooperated with them to imprison him.
phil labonte
No, we didn't.
unidentified
It doesn't matter where he's going.
phil labonte
It doesn't matter.
No, we did.
@straighterade
We cooperated.
phil labonte
They cooperated with us by taking him when we transferred.
@straighterade
Oh, so it's under our jurisdiction then.
unidentified
We sent him.
@straighterade
No, because they cooperated with us.
We're saying it was under our jurisdiction.
phil labonte
He was under our jurisdiction and we deported him to El Salvador.
@straighterade
Correct.
phil labonte
Custody was transferred to El Salvador and they put him in prison.
@straighterade
And we cooperated with that to help facilitate that imprisonment.
phil labonte
We facilitated getting him out of the country.
If you want to say that we did, I don't care.
I don't have the same kind of moral hang-ups that you do.
@straighterade
I clearly not.
I clearly find it.
I'm not morally reprehensible in your journey.
Yes, okay.
unidentified
So there you go.
phil labonte
This is the whole point.
The whole point of all of this is her to be able to say, I'm a good person, you're a bad person.
If you want to call me a bad person, I don't care.
@straighterade
I think the guy should have been deported.
Or did I say that we have a difference of something that's morally reprehensible?
phil labonte
You are saying that it's morally reprehensible.
@straighterade
You realize that somebody can defend something.
phil labonte
You've been dying for this argument to be about good person, bad person the entire time.
That's why you keep switching between the legal argument and the moral argument.
All you want to do is sit there and say, see, I'm the good person and you're the bad person.
This has been the entire show.
It's absolute trash.
@straighterade
If you don't care about my assessment of whether or not you're a good or bad person, which I never even spoke to, why are you getting so mad about it?
phil labonte
Because this has all been a BS argument.
It hasn't been an actual genuine debate about anything.
You've been trying to steer the conversation into a situation where you can say, you're the good person or you're the good person and I'm the bad person or whoever you're arguing with.
Because this isn't about law or rule of law or whether or not someone should be deported.
Because you've already said, oh, yes, these people should be deported.
You've said you've agreed to depart.
@straighterade
I said they can be deported.
I didn't say they should be deported.
That's a different.
phil labonte
Well, I imagine you don't think anyone should be deported.
No, I never said that.
That's why I said, I imagine.
unidentified
I didn't say that.
@straighterade
I agree that to the extent that I believe some individuals should be deported, there are lawful means to remove them from the country.
phil labonte
And you've agreed that all of the lawful means have been all of the lawful standards have been met.
@straighterade
No.
tim pool
It's the Patrick meme.
unidentified
Yeah.
phil labonte
I don't know what to tell you.
@straighterade
You're trying to say that the United States was not involved in the imprisonment in an El Salvadoran prison.
phil labonte
The El Salvadorian authorities put him in prison.
The United States deported the man.
@straighterade
And we cooperated with El Salvador to put him in that prison.
phil labonte
Again, like I said, this is all driving conversations.
So you can say, look, this was a morally wrong thing to do.
And you can say, see, I'm not sure if you're a person.
@straighterade
I mean, I happen to think it was immoral, but the majority of the people.
phil labonte
That's the only thing that matters today.
That's the only thing that matters is your perception of morality.
I think it's moral.
@straighterade
I also care about the total law and the Constitution.
phil labonte
you cared about the rule of law in the constitution then we wouldn't have had all of this this switching from legal legal talk to moral talk if all you cared about was you can walk and chew gum at the same time You can care about two things at once.
So then why did you say that you care about morality and why did you just say that you care about the rule of law and the Constitution?
@straighterade
Because they're not mutually exclusive.
phil labonte
The whole point.
@straighterade
Do you acknowledge that it's not mutually exclusive to care about the Constitution, the rule of law, and morality?
phil labonte
It is mutually exclusive.
tim pool
If you talk about it.
@straighterade
Oh, so you can only care about one or the other.
phil labonte
You are talking about it.
@straighterade
You can't care about the law.
You're just talking about it.
phil labonte
You can't care about the law of law.
There are going to be times when the rule of law is going to do things that one person might consider immoral.
tate brown
Well, Phil, Phil, just so.
@straighterade
That's a descriptive claim.
tate brown
Don't even grant her framework.
When we exchange custody in San Salvador, whatever El Salvador's business is, is their business.
We're not facilitating that.
It's just the reality.
@straighterade
So you don't consider us putting him on a plane, flying him to El Salvador, and deportation procedure.
It's a standard operating procedure to put somebody on a flight of the state.
Deport them to El Salvador and imprison them.
phil labonte
That is the process of the process.
tate brown
It's standard to put them on a plane and drop them off in San Salvador.
unidentified
Yes.
tate brown
That's the only international airport.
@straighterade
And where he's imprisoned.
tate brown
If El Salvador deems him as a member of MS-13, I'm not going to go and invade them over it.
I mean, it's like whatever.
And this is like 90%, 90% of the time.
@straighterade
You think that that's not the United States facilitating?
That's just, you just morally discharge it and legally discharge it all together.
tate brown
Yes, because again, if this was like seriously this moral injunction, he was like, oh my gosh, they're going to unjustly put me in a gulag, then he probably would have gotten his paperwork correct.
@straighterade
He wasn't even supposed to be put on that plane.
phil labonte
He wasn't even supposed to be in the United States.
tate brown
He wasn't supposed to be in the United States at first.
I mean, it's just like we're rearranging chairs on the Titanic.
It's like popular mandate to deport all illegal immigrants.
I mean, it is what it is.
tim pool
I think the most important thing, though, is just that he was never barred from being deployed, deported to El Salvador.
I pulled up the old court document from 2019, and it was over Guatemala.
And this is like the crazy thing.
@straighterade
So if they deported him to just any country, it doesn't matter.
tim pool
Even if it's an El Salvadoran citizen.
@straighterade
Even if it's not a home country, you defend it.
tim pool
He's an El Salvadoran citizen.
He went home.
@straighterade
Okay, so would you defend him being deported anywhere?
tim pool
Did he go home?
@straighterade
Would you defend him being deported anywhere?
tim pool
No, no, I think he should go home.
@straighterade
So you wouldn't support him being flown to France, for example, and then imprisoned there.
tim pool
I don't know, it didn't happen.
He went home.
And the court said that he was afraid of the city because it didn't happen.
@straighterade
You can't engage with the hypothetical?
tim pool
It's because you're changing the subject.
unidentified
Why?
tim pool
Because I have a court document that says he was barred from going to Guatemala, which he didn't go to.
@straighterade
You're suggesting that.
tim pool
Unless there was a change in circumstances in Guatemala that would result in the respondent's life not being threatened or that internal relocation is not possible.
Therefore, the respondent's application for withholding of the act is granted.
This stated we couldn't send him to Guatemala.
And the weird thing is, everyone in the media has just said El Salvador over and over again.
And I have this post from Kenneth College.
@straighterade
You're suggesting that you would be uncomfortable if he had been deported to a third country.
You'd been successful.
tim pool
Has anyone explained why Kilmar or Bruno Garcia's deportation order stopped him from being sent to Guatemala, but allowed him to be sent to El Salvador?
The judge explicitly cited the ongoing threats from Barrio 18 in Guatemala, stating at present, even though the family has shut down the Pupusa business, Barrio 18 continues to harass and threaten the respondents whose sisters and parents in Guatemala.
DHS has failed to carry out their burden to show that there are changed circumstances in Guatemala that would result in respondents.
So the order of deportation required him to leave.
And the problem really here is that Trump sucks and Biden sucks and everybody screwed it up and it became a political issue.
Now, liberals are pretending like they've got some moral high ground, and you've got a convoluted nonsense story where you're asking me about other countries.
He went to El Salvador, but was barred from going to Guatemala.
I don't know what the error was.
@straighterade
You're not going to distract me from asking my question again.
tim pool
An unrelated question?
We can change the subject if you want.
kaity passe
Circular reasoning exhausts you at some point.
@straighterade
So, based on what you've argued, because you're like, he's just being sent home.
Yeah, you want to.
What's implicit in that to me is a suggestion that if he had been deported to a third country, not El Salvador, not Guatemala, maybe Somalia, you would be uncomfortable with that.
tim pool
I don't know, maybe.
@straighterade
Can you answer yes or no?
kaity passe
Why does it matter?
tim pool
No, because I don't know.
tate brown
He wouldn't have the right to speak.
tim pool
I have strong feelings on it one way or another.
@straighterade
So he could have been deported to a torture prison in the Sudan.
You'd be okay with that.
tim pool
No, I don't know.
@straighterade
Why not?
Why can't you speak to that?
tim pool
I don't have enough information on what those countries are like and what it would look like.
So I'm talking about like a certain amount of time.
@straighterade
So if it was bad, he wouldn't be able to do that.
phil labonte
Wouldn't you be angry if he was deported to the sun?
tim pool
I don't know.
tate brown
You're talking about like the Rwanda seats.
@straighterade
I mean, you're laughing to avoid engaging with the hypothesis.
kaity passe
No, no, no, no, because we don't think you are.
tim pool
I don't know how I would feel on a thing that didn't happen.
And it's fine to ask hypothetical, but my answer is literally, I don't know.
I don't have a yes or no answer for you because these are different countries.
The fact remains, he was barred from going to Guatemala.
He went to El Salvador.
He's home.
What his home country does.
@straighterade
If the Trump administration had deported him to Somalia and a prison there, you would be okay with it.
tim pool
No.
@straighterade
No.
tim pool
I don't know.
@straighterade
You don't know.
tim pool
No.
I have no strong feelings one way or the other.
It's immaterial to me.
@straighterade
I'm not asking if you have strong feelings.
I'm asking if you just really can't engage with the hypothetical, and that's fine.
tim pool
I can engage with the hypothetical.
@straighterade
No, you're refusing to because you're saying that.
unidentified
No, I'm not.
tim pool
I gave you an answer.
It's I don't know.
@straighterade
No, I don't know is a cop-out.
kaity passe
No, it's not how he really feels.
phil labonte
I don't have strong feelings.
tim pool
I'm not 100% legal.
It could be bad.
It could be good.
I'll have to see.
@straighterade
What would you need to see so you could make a decision?
tim pool
You can understand the deportation, the state of deportation, the actions taken, the plane, the prison, the politicians involved.
@straighterade
So if it was like a Boeing instead of like a different kind of plane, maybe you'd be in support of it.
Maybe you wouldn't be.
tim pool
Maybe not.
Because if the plane had uncomfortable seats and they had him in a box or something, there's a lot of circumstances here.
All I can say is hard for me to do that.
@straighterade
That wouldn't change your answer.
You just say, oh, he should be deported, not in a box, in a plane.
tim pool
You just meant that I don't have an answer to that.
@straighterade
You're just deported to the plane.
tim pool
You just meant that I literally don't.
@straighterade
It's not a different country.
tim pool
Sometimes people don't know things.
Sometimes I don't know is an okay answer.
@straighterade
I'm only saying that you're refusing to engage with the hypothetical.
But I did engage with your hypothetical.
In a substantive way, because you're saying, I don't know.
I don't have enough information.
There's all of these circumstances that would change it with that.
tim pool
So give me one.
@straighterade
Yeah, you just said the plane.
You just said, oh, I don't know about the plane.
I don't know if he would be uncomfortable.
I don't know about the prison.
You said the prison would be a matter.
But to me, that suggests that if he was deported to a third country where he had no relation to and there were grave human rights abuses in a prison that they wanted to send him to in this third country, you would be against it.
Is what you're suggesting, or that it would at least be bad is what you're intimating, but you won't say either way.
tim pool
Because I genuinely do not know.
And I'm not going to lie to people to pretend I have strong opinions on something that I don't understand.
@straighterade
It's hard for you to understand to give a straight answer to a hypothetical like that.
tim pool
In this context, yes.
@straighterade
Okay.
tim pool
Yep.
Sometimes I'm wrong and I'm not smart enough to understand what that would look like.
And I'm not going to make assumptions.
So I just.
@straighterade
I think you're plenty smart to engage with this hypothetical on your statement.
tim pool
I did.
I don't know.
@straighterade
Sorry, substantively engage.
kaity passe
It's also manipulative to force an opinion he doesn't have.
tim pool
Yeah.
@straighterade
How am I forcing an opinion?
kaity passe
Because he just told you his answer.
tim pool
I'm just going to say by saying, I don't know.
I'm refusing to engage.
The only answer I can give you is I don't know.
I don't know what Somalia looks like.
Is there a CCO in Somalia?
How are Somali prisons?
Are they good?
kaity passe
Are they bad?
tim pool
Are there accusations from liberals of human protection?
@straighterade
The Seacot ones are bad, and you don't seem to care about that.
tim pool
Because El Salvador has an El Salvador citizen.
Somali does not have an El Salvador citizen.
See, they're different.
@straighterade
Because he's a citizen of a country.
They can treat him however they want.
tim pool
It's their country.
Should we invade El Salvador?
@straighterade
Why do you care about human rights abuses if it came from a different government that's not his?
tim pool
Yeah, you know, to be completely honest, I don't.
@straighterade
Okay.
Why is it difficult for you to answer the hypothetical where he supported to Somalia?
tim pool
He's not Somalian.
@straighterade
I know that.
I'm saying, why is it difficult for you to answer the question if you don't care about human rights abuses from other countries?
tim pool
Because I don't care in the sense that I would assert law over them, but I care in the sense that they're bad.
And so the issue of a person being sent to a third country.
@straighterade
It would be bad for him to be sent to a third country.
tim pool
Yeah, there's circumstances I don't understand.
@straighterade
You realize that Trump has been just trying to do that, right?
tim pool
I do, yeah.
@straighterade
Trying to send him to a third country?
tim pool
Many of them.
We talked about it around, like Ghana and Eritrea and a bunch of other countries.
What was the other country?
tate brown
Rwanda.
tim pool
Was it Rwanda?
tate brown
Rwanda's like the classic scheme.
tim pool
It was Sudan, wasn't it?
tate brown
Rwanda's been like a third country scheme.
tim pool
All of this is convoluted hubbub nonsense where everyone who has no idea what's going on is trying to assert an opinion.
I got no problem saying I don't know about that.
All I know is he's from El Salvador.
He went to El Salvador.
What El Salvador does with their citizens, I'll put it like this.
Okay, you know what?
I give up.
You're right.
Let's invade El Salvador and shut him down.
Should we?
@straighterade
Does that follow from what I said?
tim pool
Well, they're engaging in human rights abuses without due process, so let's send in the troops.
@straighterade
So you're saying yes, but it doesn't follow from El Salvador having human rights abuses that the only solution is to be able to do that.
tim pool
Should we stop the human rights abuses?
@straighterade
Yes, but that's not diplomatic means.
tim pool
Diplomatic means?
Like what?
@straighterade
You can introduce sanctions against their country to try to pressure the governments to act in conformity with human rights, then you can try additional mechanisms.
We have embassies in these countries where we can communicate with foreign dignitaries.
tim pool
No, I'm saying, like, but what if sanctions?
@straighterade
We can make appeals to the UN.
tim pool
What if sanctions don't work and they keep doing it?
phil labonte
So pretty please?
@straighterade
I'm only answering your question.
What are we supposed to do short of sugar on top?
You asked me, what are we supposed to do short of invading them?
And I'm giving you different avenues.
And now you're saying what if they don't work?
tim pool
Venezuela's sanctions.
@straighterade
And I'm not saying that they are guaranteed to work.
I'm saying there are different ways, objectively, than just invading a country.
tim pool
Let's talk about Venezuela real quick.
Sanctions didn't work on Venezuela.
They kept trading oil with sanctioned countries and they were sanctioned.
So should we just let them keep doing it or should we invade Venezuela?
@straighterade
You realize it's a false dichotomy that you've presented, right?
tim pool
What's the false dichotomy?
@straighterade
That it doesn't have to be one or the other.
tim pool
The invasion or the sanctions?
@straighterade
Yeah, no.
unidentified
All right.
tim pool
So do you have a suggestion for what we do beyond the sanctions failing?
@straighterade
There's other diplomatic means.
Am I able to articulate what they could be?
tim pool
You don't know.
unidentified
No.
@straighterade
I'm just saying that I'm sure there exists any number of different actions we could appeal to the UN.
There's other, we could work in coordinates.
tim pool
In the UN and other countries.
@straighterade
I'm only answering that there are more options than just sanctions and invasions.
Do you agree with me?
tim pool
Yeah, I don't.
What do you mean?
phil labonte
We could say pretty please.
tim pool
Sure.
phil labonte
Yeah.
tim pool
Yeah.
But I'll clarify because I think it's fine to say that if we send in like frogmen to pull someone from their home or execute them, it's an invasion.
I think it's, you know, the polymarket's not paying out Venezuelan invasion because they argued that we didn't capture territory.
phil labonte
Oh, really?
tim pool
But like, we did.
We took the Venezuelan compound to secure him.
Just because it was for 90 minutes doesn't mean it wasn't an invasion.
So the argument is, how does the U.S., the U.S. does a variety of things to take over a country?
We do first economic incentives.
We'll make you rich.
If they say no, then we try to manipulate them politically.
Well, the first economic incentives things does involve sanctions.
Then there's political manipulation like we've seen in the banana republics or the efforts we've made in Iraq and Afghanistan with nation building.
It's not a great example.
But Ukraine is probably a better example, the Euromaidan movement.
Before it became full-blown war, the U.S. was funding activist groups to foment support for the EU.
When that doesn't work, we then go for assassinations.
And if that doesn't work, we then go for full-scale militarized invasion.
So that's the playbook for how it went with Saddam Hussein.
And it was because he didn't want to trade oil in dollars, he wanted to trade in Euro.
And Muamar Gaddafi wanted to trade in gold.
That's the scale of things that we do.
@straighterade
Did you support the Obama administrative intervention?
tim pool
Absolutely not.
And I think Barack Obama was a scumbag who murdered children and American citizens, and he should be a war criminal and should be arrested.
And Trump doesn't get any special passes for me because he was accused of killing another American girl, the sister of Abdurrahman al-Alalaki in Yemen.
Now, that one is an accusation not yet confirmed, and I think we should have a trial and hearing over it, though it's been 10 years.
The Obama killing of Abdurrahman al-Alaki is admitted to, confessed to, and they said, whoopsie-daisy.
So if you want to confess the murder of an American, you get locked the fuck up.
So anyway, I don't think the U.S. should be killing Saddam Hussein and invading under false pretenses to enforce the petrodollar.
don't think that we should have gone and removed maduro though i think maduro is a bad guy and they are wholly different things the issue that comes was affiliated with the terrorist organization Abdul Rahman Al-Laki.
@straighterade
I'm sorry, I can't get the name right, but that individual, even if they're affiliated with the terrorist alliance.
tim pool
Abdul Rahman Al-Laki was not, no.
He was a 16-year-old from Boulder, Colorado, visiting his family in Yemen.
@straighterade
Oh, wait, wait, wait.
I'm not talking about that.
That's, uh, it was like an additional casualty that was incurred as a result of this.
I'm talking about...
unidentified
No, no, no, no, no.
tim pool
Abdurrahman al-Laki was directly targeted and the restaurant was blown up and he was killed.
And when asked about it, they said, we thought there was a different target at the building.
@straighterade
So would you, if they're part of a terrorist organization, is that okay?
tim pool
Depends.
Anwar al-Alaki was an American citizen.
@straighterade
But he was part of Al-Qaeda, no?
tim pool
Perhaps.
He was argued that he was a proselytizer of Al-Qaeda, and he was actively engaged in war with us in a war zone.
That's tough.
I still lean towards they should have had a criminal trial form in the United States before killing an American citizen, but it's fair to say that when you're actively engaged in war, look, if someone's running at me with a gun, they get shot.
Doesn't matter if they're an American citizen or a Uzbekistanian or whatever.
So Anwar al-Alaki was killed in a drone strike.
He was an American citizen who wasn't given due process.
No charge, no trial.
They just killed him.
The argument they made was he was an active enemy combatant proselytizing for our enemies in enemy territory.
And it's like, well, we aren't at war with Yemen.
So why are we bombing Yemen?
He's just a foreign guy preaching things we don't like.
There should be a trial for him.
Now, Abdulrahman is wholly different.
This is an American citizen who committed no crimes, was part of no terrorist organization, who was visiting his grandparents in Yemen at a civilian restaurant when Obama blew him up.
That's criminal.
Obama should be in prison for that.
He admitted to it.
As administration said, we thought it was a different target.
Okay, we call that manslaughter.
Okay.
We call that negligent homicide.
If you point a gun at a guy and shoot him and say, I thought that was a murderer, we say, well, you killed an innocent person.
You go to jail for that.
Anyway, we are well over and we do need to wrap up.
But I do want to give you the opportunity to put your final thoughts in and take the final word.
@straighterade
I don't have any additional final thoughts.
Had a good time talking with all of you guys and debating throughout the afternoon.
My name is Aaron, aka Spiritist Radio at Underscore Online.
I live stream basically Monday through Friday politics, React streams.
So come by.
It's always a good time.
And thank you for having me on.
tim pool
Thanks for coming too.
And I appreciate you handling the heat in the kitchen.
I know we're all kind of against you, but I do think it was great to have you.
@straighterade
It's fun for me.
tim pool
I do want to apologize to the Discord members in the backstage that we didn't go through your chats or whatever because I lost my mind.
But now we're 12 minutes over.
We're out of time because we have limited time today.
That's why we're pre-recording.
So, yeah, do you want to shout anything out before we go?
kaity passe
Yeah, so you guys can follow me.
I'm mostly on X at RealDefender45.
But I will remind you all that it is important to get involved locally because a nation where its citizens don't show up can be lost.
And so we need to act.
tate brown
X and Instagram at RealTate Brown.
Go follow me there.
phil labonte
I am Phil that Remains on Twix.
The band is all that remains.
We're going on tour.
We're going to be in Albany on April 29th.
We'll be on tour for three weeks after that until the end of, which is about the end of May.
We're going out with Born of Osiris and Dead Eyes.
You can check out all the remains music on Apple Music, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, YouTube, and Deezer.
Don't forget the left lane is for crime.
tim pool
I just want to say again, too, that it was great to have you.
And you can tell it was a good show when we go over and it's just like we don't even notice as time flies.
Yeah, I know.
I'm like, I want to keep going because I'm having fun and I think it's important, but we were supposed to have a hard stop.
So everybody, thank you all so much for being members.
Thanks for watching the show.
We're back, of course, on Monday.
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