Catherine Fitts: Epstein, CIA Black Budget, the Control Grid, and the Banks’ Role in War
Catherine Fitts exposes the CIA’s $21 trillion black budget and programmable money’s role in war, tracing its origins to the 1947 National Security Act and Epstein-linked elites. The Clarity Act and stablecoins (like those tied to U.S. debt dominance) enable fiscal control, while FASB 56—pushed through in October 2018—allows hidden withdrawals, benefiting firms like Deloitte and J.P. Morgan. Iran’s resistance to this system highlights a BRICS-backed "leakage" undermining global control, with gold purchases by China signaling dollar distrust. Fitts warns of CBDCs and social credit risks, where non-compliance (e.g., vaccines, food choices) could trigger fund restrictions, framing it as a democratic coup. She contrasts Washington’s incompetent, hypermaterialistic elites with China’s disciplined leadership, urging listeners to detoxify from the "control grid"—using cash, ethical investments, and faith-based rituals—to deny energy to systemic harm. The future belongs to "builders," not those complicit in destruction. [Automatically generated summary]
They're like, I used to think I was a conspiracy theorist, but now I know, you know, but it's kind of a variety of that.
But last time we had lunch a couple months ago, you were telling me about, and I wish we had this on tape, but we can recreate it here, about the control grid, a concept that you had explained when we last did an interview and how it was, as you said at lunch, snapping into place.
Can you just, for people who haven't seen your previous talk, explain what the control grid is, what it looks like and what it means?
So the control grid is a process or an infrastructure that allows digital technology to be used to assert phenomenal surveillance and control of people.
And at the very heart of it is what I call programmable money.
So it's money that is no longer just a currency.
It's money that comes with a set of rules that can be surveilled enforced.
So imagine back in the pandemic, if your money, if I said, okay, you've got to lock down and your money won't work if you leave your house, you can't buy gas in your car because your money is programmed with AI and software to enforce a whole set of centralized rules.
And programmable money allows the bankers who've been running monetary policy to now control fiscal policy and essentially replace legislatures and executive branch by making and enforcing the rules through the money.
Now, that requires a large infrastructure of surveillance.
So you need digital IDs and then you need the hardware locally and globally to do the surveillance and implementation.
So for example, if you look at the local hardware and now people are seeing it, you know, now that it's material, they're beginning to see it snap into place.
So I don't know if you know flock cameras, but there are many communities across the United States that are entering into contracts paid by the taxpayers to put up cameras all around their neighborhood that track license plates and keep that data and share it with a variety of people.
Or you have the FCC is trying to overrule local controls on cell towers.
So they can literally put cell towers every 400 to 700 feet so that they can have the kind of invasive surveillance you need.
Or you have satellites now that can literally beam in Wi-Fi so that whether you have Wi-Fi in your home or not, they can start to track you.
And all those systems come, put you in what I call the panopticon.
So we saw in the Middle East with the first war with Iran, we saw 11 leaders out of 12 sort of top leaders in science and government assassinated because they're literally tracking everyone and they can identify them and track them.
And then you have invisible weaponry that can then take them out or, you know, can identify missile strikes.
So let me ask you to, so you're talking about the 12-day war against Iran in June of 2025.
We were led to believe just as newspaper readers or news consumers that those 11 Iranian officials were targeted with human intelligence, that Israel had spies inside of Iran, but you're saying that was done digitally.
That's probably, I would assume that that's probably true because you always want to get human confirmation of what the systems are telling you.
It's always better if you have both.
But we are now moving into building out the kind of surveillance systems that can literally track, identify, and integrate with not only our existing weaponry, but ultimately autonomous weaponry.
So anyway, so let me step back.
You've got three parts to the control grid.
One is the local hardware and infrastructure, and that includes the data centers.
Because if you data, I thought those were for AI.
They are.
Because if you look at what it takes to apply the equivalent of a social credit system to people's money.
So the social credit system I apply to you is different than the one I apply to me.
And if you look at the data I need to track you and test whether or not you're following the rules I've given you and enforce those rules, it's an explosive amount of data, particularly because you're looking not just at financial control, but spatial control.
So Congressman Amasi is trying to kill the kill switch in your car.
That's because spatial control means I can turn off your car or I can set it so your money won't work more than a mile from your home or a 15 minute city.
So you literally, you're not allowed to leave your 15 minute city and your transportation and your money won't work outside of that area.
So let me step back.
So what is AI good at?
AI is very good at tracking things that can be expressed mathematically.
And financial transactions and spatial movement can be expressed mathematically.
And so what the AI centers are for primarily is to build that digital control grid and to manage that data.
So, and now it can be used for many other purposes too.
So it's not just going to be used for control.
But to me, that's the primary purpose.
And that if you look at the cameras, if you look at the cell towers, if you look at the satellites and then the AI, the data centers, those are all component pieces of the local hardware.
So there are three sort of pillars that I track.
One is the programmable money, and that's what we at Solari are trying to stop.
The second is the digital ID, because you need a global, you need digital ID systems that are interoperable globally, and then the local hardware.
And those are sort of the three pillars.
And what's interesting is there's phenomenal development of all three.
We have a commentary at Solari where we track.
It's called the fast approaching digital control grid.
And every week we update all the things that are being done to build those three pillars and have them integrate with each other.
And ever since the inauguration, it's been moving very, very quickly.
Now, it's both sides of the uniparty.
They come at it in different ways and they do different things.
But this is, you know, ultimately what this is doing is this is going to a point where the central bankers, whether they do it with a central bank digital currency or private stable coins and asset tokens, are setting the world up so that they can control your financial transactions literally in real time with the equivalent of a social credit system.
So if you're the central bankers and you want to take cash down to zero, what you do is you create lots of different kinds of rules and regulations that nudge people in that direction.
And one of the reasons they're getting the rule and one of the things they use to do the nudging with is if you look at the amount of cybercrime and financial fraud that's happening that is causing people to go down and get cash, it's real.
And the banks are losing a great deal of money on it.
And it's a serious problem, particularly because if you look at the technology used to using it to be implemented, you know, I believe they're using neural warfare.
So they get these people very addicted online and they get them doing sort of crazy financial things.
I was trying to, I was in the Netherlands, I was trying to wire 5,000 euros to one of the people who works for me.
And my bank stopped it because they felt that I was a victim of a romance crime.
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So, you know, the banks are in a movement for more and more central control.
Again, the financial system for 20 plus years has been steadily moving in all different layers from regulatory to these kinds of things from a world where the bankers control monetary policy to a world where they control fiscal policy.
Okay, so since 1913, the United States has have a governmental structure where the central bank, the Federal Reserve, which is the Board of Governors in Washington and the 12 central banks, manage monetary policy.
So they basically, working with the banks, run the financial transactions.
The New York Fed runs the governmental accounts.
They control the government bank accounts.
And their policies of Fed funds, interest rate, and money onto the reserve tracks affects the money supply and the, you know, and basically the money supply and how the money works.
Okay.
So it's more complicated than that because they have lots of regulatory functions.
But the people vote for their representatives.
So whether it's the state house or the Congress, they vote for elected representatives from their jurisdiction and area.
And those people decide fiscal policy, which is what taxes do we collect?
What tariffs do we collect?
What bonds do we sell and raise money?
And how does that money get spent?
So my representatives, your representatives are determining fiscal policy and the bankers are determining monetary policy.
And it's a balance of power between the people and the bankers.
Now, with the digital control grid and programmable money, the bankers can assert control of fiscal policy.
And they can just decide what the taxes are and take them out of your account.
And they can essentially determine the rules of how it all gets spent.
And so it's a very, you know, it's sort of a financial coup d'état that over time, you know, they want to assert complete control of fiscal and monetary policy.
And essentially, the legislatures will go to being sort of show and tell or, you know, go out of business.
If you go back to 9-11 and when Wesley Clark said we're going to invade seven countries in five years, what you were talking about were the countries where those central banks were not on board to do programmable money and their governance structures were not on board with essentially, you know, because of Epstein, I'll call it the Rockefeller Rothschild model.
There was an effort to say, okay, we're going to basically assert control of the central banks in those countries.
That's my interpretation.
And I think one of the reasons we're seeing so much tension around Iran is because Iran right now is the big leakage in the system.
One of the reasons it counts is because their oil and energy is very important, including for China.
And that's very important in the BRICS system.
What the BRICS system is trying to do is to create independent payment systems.
But if you're going to come out with programmable money, with digital IDs that are interoperable globally and programmable money that controls in each jurisdiction centrally, you can't afford leakage.
And so you've got way too much leakage in the system to proceed with what they're trying to do.
And Iran is, and the BRIC nations are a sticking point.
And certainly Iran's oil, you know, feeding China gives China greater independence.
So if you go back, so you had the wonderful Richard Warner on your show.
And Richard has a book called The Princes of Vienne, which is about the sort of effort to take over the Japanese central bank.
And I think what you're looking at, I think part of the state of play with both Russia and Iran is how are you going to make sure that those central banks are entirely in the system?
Because it shows you the true, it takes you right into the secret governance system and it shows you the mech, the, the primary mechanism by which they implement policy.
Well, it's, it's, it's one of the critical train tracks of control.
So it's what I call the third rail.
So I used to finance transit systems and train systems.
So, you know, a lot of these systems have two tracks that the wheels go on, and then they have a third rail that the power line runs on.
And you get a trend trap that flips over and sucks the energy from the third rail.
So a lot of the things that really operate the third rail are very invisible.
And for example, in central banking, to listen, to talk about tier one and tier two and tier three capital at the BIS and the banks, there's nothing more boring.
There's been a lot of noise in the news recently, but none of it matters if you can't hear it.
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So back to programmable digital currency.
All the features that you've described so far of the control grid, that's the one that has not been fully implemented.
And it's important to be talking about this now because if imagine a tsunami approaching us, there is a tsunami approaching us.
Right now, if you look at the traditional financial system, we're talking about hundreds of trillions of dollars, stocks, bonds, global stocks and bonds market.
The crypto market or money is issued on a distributed ledger is tiny.
So maybe it's $4 trillion compared to $250 trillion, just counting stocks and bonds.
And then we have the currency market, which is bigger.
So most people in the traditional financial system look at the distributed ledger system and say, you know, it's tiny.
The big, bitter fight right now is over the Clarity Act.
So the Genius Act created a regulatory framework for stablecoins.
And I'll explain stablecoins in a second.
The Clarity Act was passed in the House last year.
Its complement in the Senate is called, it's a discussion draft called the Responsible Financial Innovation Act.
And so the final act's name, I'll call it the Clarity Act, but I don't know which it will be.
The Senate and the House have not agreed, and that has become a very bitter fight.
And I can explain what that's about.
The reason the Genius Act and the Clarity Act are very, very important is there has been a push to say we don't want central bank digital currency because we don't want the central banks putting the banks out of business and controlling centrally.
What has happened, though, is now they're doing a form of private, think of it as private CBDC, stable coins and digital assets and tokens that can essentially implement the same social credit and control system, but through private issuers.
So let me turn to stablecoins for a second because the Genius Act is passed.
They're working on regulations that'll come out at the end of this year or the beginning of next year.
If a stable coin is issued, it's a crypto issued on a distributive ledger, and it's basically the money that is received to buy the stablecoin is reinvested in either treasury bills that are 93 days or shorter in maturity or high quality bank deposits, so cash.
So basically it's 100% collateralized.
So when you have a stable coin, it's like having a little treasury bill, a dollar of treasury bill.
And the reason you call it a stable coin is you're hoping, you know, theoretically a stablecoin could be done on other currencies as well, but you're hoping that a dollar stablecoin will not be volatile in price the way many cryptos are volatile in price.
So one of the hopes and one of the reasons that we're issuing stablecoins is as foreign purchases of treasuries diminish, we're hoping that you can put out stablecoins worldwide and attract retail money into the treasury market.
So the wholesale market is rejecting you.
And so now through the mobile payment systems, you can put out stablecoins.
It's another way of preserving U.S. dominance, dollar dominance.
But the danger, of course, is there are two dangers.
One is if everyone in your town in Maine pulls their money out of the bank and puts it on their mobile payment stablecoin, all the loan market and the credit creation market in your town is going to collapse.
Right.
Because they're leaving your local economy and going into the treasury market to finance the feds.
Now, they can also issue stablecoins, but again, that money is going to go into the treasury market rather than multiply on Main Street.
There's been a real quiet war over the last 20, 30 years because the federal regulators have pushed the community banks and credit unions to not make loans on Main Street, but put their money in the investment portfolio where they do buy treasuries.
And this is all part of getting your local economy more and more dependent on federal money.
If you look at the last 50 years or 70 years since World War II, every effort has been made through taxes or credit or various financial mechanisms to get all the money to go into central and come back down.
Right.
And now if you go into most communities, so America's 3,100 counties, most counties, 40 or 50% of the income in that county is coming through, you know, it goes up to Wall Street or Washington and comes back down.
And so you end up with more and more central control.
Now, here's the little secret.
It's economically insane.
If you could do more money going around, you could make the pie much bigger.
I mean, it's hard to believe now, but 30 years ago when the internet was being introduced to the public, the idea was this is empowering for the for the average person.
Well, what I discovered when I was in the administration was that if the local business people could see how the money works around them, they could get back in the game.
So, you know, we regularly saw, I told you this before, we regularly saw communities where HUD was spending $250,000 per unit to build public housing and $50,000 would buy and rehab a single family foreclosed property in the same four-block area.
So, and I literally, but it was the same with jobs.
We were paying a contractor in Washington $100, $125,000 per hour to do something that we could keep local.
You didn't need to send it all the way up there so that a big contractor could, corporate contractor could do it.
So there was a great story during the financial crisis where a woman lost her job, very responsible, hardworking, couldn't find another job, ultimately had to take food stamps, which was a matter of great shame for her.
And so she had a problem with them and called tech support and got a woman in India working for J.P. Morgan Chase, who had at that point 37 of the state food stamp programs they were managing.
And she said, wait a minute, I could do this job.
And if I was doing this job, I wouldn't need food stamps.
So why are we sending it to India with a big markup for a big bank when I could just do this job and then I wouldn't need food stamps?
If I have a publicly traded stock and it's trading at a price earnings ratio of 10, just to make it simple.
If I make a dollar, my stock goes up $10, right?
Okay.
Now, if government intervenes to take a million dollars of income to, you know, that Main Street is making and shift it into a publicly traded stock, that stock will go up $10 million.
What's the biggest source of political contributions?
Capital gains, right?
So the more I shift money out of Main Street into publicly traded stocks, the more I get the pop on the stock.
And the more investors of real estate capital gains or company enterprise capital gains, the more money they'll give.
So, you know, so in Washington, there's this giant sucking sound.
You shut down Main Street, which is not publicly traded.
And suddenly all their market share has to go to publicly traded stocks, either online companies or the big box stores.
So I'll never forget there's a wonderful moment during the pandemic when Rick Santilli is standing on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange and he's saying, and Andrew Sorkin is up in the studio.
And Santilli says, this makes no sense.
I'm going to the mall.
All the little companies are closed.
Costco's next door.
And the parking lot's packed.
And Costco's packed.
It doesn't make any sense.
Why do the little guys have to be shut down for the virus?
But, you know, it's okay next door, you know, because the parking lot's packed.
So at the time that I wrote the analysis, the best figures I could get from General Accounting Office was it was costing the whole criminal justice system was costing $154,000 per person per year.
And one of the reasons was the construction of all these private facilities is one of my theories.
But what I showed you was the stocks were trading on a per-bed basis.
Okay.
So if you could get a law passed that mandated longer sentences, the stocks would go up because you get a bigger PE per bed.
And literally what they did was they started the companies and then they started a program to drop SWAT teams into neighborhoods to literally drop in and round up kids, you know, who could be dealing drugs or not.
You know, who was dealing, bringing in the drugs.
It wasn't the kids.
And literally they cut off in DC.
They cut off the money to the public defender's office so the kids had to all cop please.
And that would stuff the prisons.
And at the same time, what they did is they created a company at the Department of Justice called Unicorp that could market prison labor to corporations for tiny dollars.
And the book describes, it's called Dylan Reed and the Aristocracy of Stock Profits and explains how the whole system works, who made money, how they made money.
And what's sad about it is, you know, my guess from doing that analysis is that many of the people making money on it are the same people who are making money bringing in the drugs.
And I describe all those things.
So, and the power of the book, it took me a year to write it.
And I had a, I was living in Montana and you couldn't walk in my house.
You could only step on piles of SEC documents.
And there are literally hundreds of thousands of pages of documentation behind it because I had to prove all the different pieces of the financial ecosystem.
And so we put up all the documentation.
And it was, you know, it was quite astonishing because it really helped people who had trouble understanding the growing central control.
It helped them to see that it was very intentional.
The saddest fact at the moment we're living in is that the American dream itself is evaporating for a lot of young people.
And how do you know that?
Because they can't afford to buy homes.
Owning property, something that was completely normal, it was America just a generation ago, is now a dream for so many people.
People are using buy now pay later apps to buy food, dinner on credit.
So what you're watching is the slow failure of systems that don't work anymore.
This isn't nostalgia.
Things really are getting worse and you can feel it.
So for nearly 80 years, the U.S. dollar sat at the center of our economic system.
After World War II, the world trusted the dollar because it trusted the strength and the discipline of American leaders.
And that trust, sadly, is fading.
You can see it when central banks are doing right now.
Quietly, at historic levels across the world, they are buying gold, not ETFs, but actual gold and putting it in actual vaults.
That's what China is doing, dumping treasuries, buying gold.
So when the people closest to the system are hedging against the dollar, you should probably pay attention.
They are going to what they've always gone to from the beginning of recorded history, gold.
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In order to implement any big society-wide change, and I think your COVID example is a perfect one, you really have to construct a crisis and the change is a solution to whatever the problem you created is.
So like if you, I don't know, want to create a new federal agency, you probably need a 9-11.
If you want to make biometrics the rule, you probably have to push AI and make the case that like we don't know who anybody is because everything's a deep fake.
So you have to have biometrics in, you know, in your Twitter handle, et cetera.
What will be the crisis that justifies digital currency?
So let me sit back for a second because what I see is the crisis is only the apex in the third act.
To get the crisis working, you have to get thousands of things in place.
So for example, coming into COVID, I don't think you could have done COVID without, for example, getting Federal Accounting Standards Advisory Board Statement 56 into place in 2018 and then having the central bankers meet and approve the going directory.
I would be delighted to tell you about that because this is one of those things that sounds very boring that is like a, you know, a 10 Richter earthquake.
So for many, many years, there was a group of us who were trying to bring as much transparency to the fact that there was serious criminality going on in the federal accounts and $21 trillion was missing.
And That was happening because the federal government refused to obey the financial management laws.
So they are required: you're a citizen, you pay your taxes, they're required to give you, you know, you give them your 1040 and they're required to give you back and says, okay, here's how we spent your money.
And that's required in the Constitution, the financial management laws.
The federal government hasn't, since the mid-90s, been in complete violation of those laws.
So there was a lot of pressure that was brought to bear when Dr. Mark Skidmore with Solari published his report on the 21 trillion missing.
And so pressure, pressure, pressure.
The DOD keeps saying, you know, we can't pass an audit.
We're not going to pass an audit.
And then in 2018, remember the Kavanaugh hearings?
Everybody was very busy, you know, watching the Kavanaugh hearings.
The federal government, the House, the Senate, and the White House all together, October 2018, published an administrative policy called FASB 56 that basically said, in violation of the Constitution, the financial management laws and the financial management regulations, that they could set up a secret group of people by a secret process and pull things out of the government's financial statements and keep them secret,
not just for the 24 covered agencies, but for 150-plus related governmental entities.
And when you take in the national security and classification laws, that means also that the big banks and contractors working for the federal government can do the same.
They have no legal basis because this is in violation of the Constitution, the financial management laws, and the financial management regulations.
We have a section at missing money with seven briefing papers.
It took me two years working with our attorneys to do it that describe all the financial management laws of the United States so that you can see.
And luckily, one of the interesting things that happened when FASB 56 passed is Matt Taibbi picked up on it and wrote an article about it.
It's funny, he emailed me.
He said, okay, I got the briefing papers.
Thank God.
Because it's very, you know, if you're someone like Matt Taibbi, it's very hard to sit down and learn the financial management laws of the United States.
That's why we did the briefing papers so that any reporter could, you know, get into this and master it in a reasonable period.
So in administration, in law, there's the Constitution, there's the financial management laws, there's a regulation, and then there's the administrative policy.
So this is the total inversion.
This is an administrative policy saying we can break the Constitution, the financial management laws, and the regulations by administrative policy.
But the House, the Senate, and the White House all agreed.
So it was a joint, and they tried to sneak it through.
And I was very lucky because there was a guy at the time who worked for the American Federation of Scientists who literally read the Federal Register.
And I had signed up for his newsletter because I didn't want to, but I trusted him to do it.
And he would keep an eye on the black budget issues.
A guy named Steve Aftergood, very good.
And he, in his newsletter, he read it and he understood what it meant because it's so boring.
The covert economy is driven by a series of pools of money and cash flows.
The first one, Joseph Farrell calls it the hidden system of finance.
The first one started with all the seizures during the wars.
So during World War II, a great amount of assets were seized, and that created a pool of money that was available for covert operations.
So there's a wonderful story in Christopher Simpson's first book about how the money they had seized had been moved into the Exchange Stabilization Fund, which is the mother of all slush funds that's managed by the Secretary of Treasury, managed by the New York Fed for the Secretary of Treasury.
So the money had been moved in, and the Dulles brothers are sitting at Sullivan and Cromwell and they use that money to rig the 48 elections in Europe at the request of the Vatican.
Anyway, so this is the, you know, so we have these, this seizure pool.
Then what happened?
We passed the National Security Act in 47.
And then in 49, we passed the CIA Act, which was very fractious.
It literally took assassinating Forrestal to get that done.
funny there are two books that i i have read on it both of which cost like 100 bucks a piece on ebay because they're it's just have you read david martin's book I don't know.
So it was both the black budget and Israel that were, and they needed to get him out of the way.
So we have a big interview on it, Solari, and I've looked very into it very deeply.
I was very interested in Forrestal.
Anyway, so the, but the 49 Act was the CIA Act.
So you have the National Security Act 47, the CIA Act.
What the CIA Act authorized was the ability to appropriate money to different agencies and then claw it back secretly to a black budget.
So now we have the hidden system of finance with the pools of seized money, and we add to that a layer of money that can be appropriated and clawed and used secretly only subject to very limited oversight by a committee in Congress.
So the appropriations committees wouldn't see that money, only this one committee that oversaw the black budget.
Okay.
And if you look at those two pools, the next step happened in 81 when Bush comes in.
Bush comes in as vice president under Reagan, and his deal with the Reagan folks during the campaign was he'll, because he'd run the CIA, he'll run intelligence and enforcement.
And the Bushies were very, very good at the nuts and bolts of sort of the mechanics of government and the legal system and money.
He got an executive order done that said essentially you can use this secret money, the black budget money, and you can use it to hire corporate contractors who can now do highly classified projects.
Now, let me explain what this means as a financial matter.
So we were talking about stock market going up.
You can now take the most secret, powerful technology in the world and pay corporations to learn and end up owning that technology secretly in a way that drives their stock to the moon.
So now you've connected the U.S. Treasury market directly like a pipe into companies and drive their stock up almost to an infinite amount.
It's quite as a financial mechanism, it's one of the most powerful things that ever happened in our history.
No, you want to audit the federal accounts at the New York Fed and you want to audit the exchange stabilization fund at the New York Fed.
That's what you want to audit.
And what you want to find out is where did the 21 trillion go or come in?
You know, all the federal government has refused to balance its accounts since the mid-90s.
And we know that there are inexplicable, undocumentable adjustments of enormous amounts.
And the only way you can figure out what happened is to go into those bank accounts and figure out what came in and what went out and to actually map out the actual cash.
And you have to do it not just in the, you know, so the New York Fed is depository for the U.S. government.
So you have to do it in those accounts, but you also have to look at the borrowing accounts and the slush fund accounts, which is the exchange stabilization.
So, you know, Rand Paul and his father and Congressman Massey have talked about auditing the accounts.
And it's funny because Massey and I were at a great conference once and he was talking about shutting down the Fed and I kept saying, no, no, you don't shut it down until you get the 21 trillion back.
Otherwise, they get to keep the 21 trillion.
So Thomas was up giving a wonderful speech and he said, you know, I think we should shut down the Fed.
And then he looked at me and he said, after we got Catherine's money back.
And, you know, are we going to be run by the rule of law?
Or are we going to be run by a secret governance system, essentially consolidating things into what I would call the mega-rich who are above the law?
You know, are we, you know, this is fundamentally about is there going to be the rule of law or not?
And, you know, the thing I love about Massey, he's an engineer.
And if you talk with him or listen to him about a wide range of subjects, you know, starting with food and agriculture, he is ruthlessly focused on what is productive, on what makes economic sense.
And what he knows is that the centralization of control is destroying productivity.
It's destroying wealth.
And he knows that, you know, whether it's family wealth or community wealth, you cannot, you cannot have a civilization.
You know, you cannot have a civilization if you have a society that is this enormously destructive of individual sovereignty and individual and family wealth.
And so he's literally, if you look in all these different areas, he's just constantly moving out, making, you know, trying to do what makes sense.
And his understanding, because he's been an entrepreneur and a small businessman and a farmer and a rancher, he understands the economics bottom up.
One of my favorite Thomas Massey stories I heard on your show, which was an amazing interview, I always make young people watch at least the second half of your interview with Massey.
When he's talking about how he figures he gets, he busts the, he's the county mayor, essentially, and he busts the prisoners out of the jail to help them install a new hot water heater because they can't afford to buy, you know, they have to buy a used one.
And he's going right at the heart of the issue, not because he wanted to, but because he's trying to do all these fundamentally productive things in five or 10 different none of us wanted any of these fights, actually.
So if I was, you know, if suddenly tomorrow, you know, I got, I was in charge, you know, I was the dictator in charge, first thing I do is I'd outlaw dual citizenship, you know, in an important governmental position.
Because the secret governance system controls through allowing people to operate above the law or have different incentives that put them outside of the system.
And I think the dual citizenship is part of that process.
It could be the ability to keep money in Israel or through Israel off books, not subject to taxes.
It could mean many things.
It could just mean, you know, financial rewards that are that are completely, you know, on the face of it, legal.
But I'll give you an example.
We've just seen two arrests in the UK coming out of the Epstein files, not for anything to do with sex, but the fact that they had compromised state secrets, right?
So, but presumably they did that in exchange for, you know, various benefits of being part of the network.
So big picture that the takeaway from my perspective from the Epstein, a cursory reading of 2 million pages, is that there's a government or a governance structure above governments.
So I would say that there are investment networks.
And if you look at what Epstein, if you come to Solari, we have a commentary up called, was Jeffrey Epstein the father of programmable money?
Which I believe, you know, the answer is yes, or certainly one of them.
And if you read, we're pointing to a substack series written by a guy who writes anonymously under the name ESC, as in Escape, ESC.
And it's a marvelous thing, very well documented back to the Epstein files that we've now received, describing how Epstein, who I believe was laundering money, was allocating that money to all these different projects that helped develop crypto and programmable money.
But what he describes in the process of one of those substacks is traditionally, historically for the last 150 years, how the Rothschild networks, and I would include Rockefeller and Rothschild as a sort of central banking network together, how they operate both the family and then people who are sort of, S calls him the switchboard, the agents who sort of coordinate between the different houses and the network.
And in one sense, it's a very informal network, but because it has the blessing of the central bankers, it receives a lot of protection from the intelligence agencies.
And, you know, it's a networking function.
And he does a very good job of describing how it operates as a functional matter.
And everything he writes is exactly what I saw in Washington and Wall Street.
You have a layer of equity pools in and around the central banks that are engaged in trying to build forward in a variety of ways and position money and manage risk.
And they are literally increasingly above the law.
You know, they can operate within a country sphere, you know, but Epstein was basically global.
And if you look at the programmable money and what he was doing to build programmable money, that required operation in both Europe, the United States, and around the world.
And I don't believe the Chinese government is going to allow its authority to be challenged by international pools of capital, at least in the East, because it's going to control the East, right?
And so the question is, you know, what obligations does China have to European and U.S. capital?
And I don't know the answer.
China's strength is if you look at what they're doing with technology, their innovation and speed is astonishing and very, very impressive.
And it's racing by the United States right now.
If you look at their demographic issues and they have very serious demographic issues and they have a very serious real estate crisis to be managed that has profound implications with a demographic problem because a lot of the retirement saving was put in real estate.
And now that real estate is down and they have an aging population, they've got some real issues.
So they have a lot to manage.
And a lot of how they do depends on how successful their Silk Road innovation sort of investments work out for them.
But I'm not convinced that they necessarily have to end up as the dominant world power.
They've worked very hard for the last 10 to 15 years to make their currency acceptable as one of the basket of reserve currencies.
And yet, if you look at how much the market share, it's limited.
And I think one reason is the distrust of the Chinese is extraordinary because they are deeply, deeply committed to the superiority of the Han people.
And so if you look at different experiences people have had with the Chinese, I think they have a real challenge to build trust.
Now, the U.S. was able to build that kind of trust.
Now we're blowing it.
So, you know, the question is how fast can they build it versus how fast are we going to blow it?
So stablecoins are the, you know, trading the treasury bills.
And I think Treasury's hope is that they can attract, you know, several billion, anywhere from $4 to $10 billion trillion dollars into the Treasury market with this mechanism by offering it globally.
And if it's very successful at a retail level, it's going to pull a lot of money out of local banking systems all over the world.
Now, let's talk about asset tokens because that's where the big float is going to come.
So, uh, the Clarity Act is what is creating the, as the Genius Act created the framework for stablecoins, the Clarity Act and its Senate version is creating the framework for digital assets and digital tokens.
Now, Larry Fink and BlackRock have said they're planning on trading all stocks and bonds using tokens or digital assets.
So, they have not been clear operationally exactly how this is going to work.
But what it means is this is going to be potentially $100, $200, $300 trillion market if they do it.
And what that means is they want to be able to trade all financial assets worldwide on a distributive ledger that can be turned into programmable money.
Now, if you talk to the people who are issuing stablecoins now or working on the Clarity Act, they say, Oh, we would never do that.
That's CBDC.
But in fact, if you look at the stablecoin bill, the Genius Act, it is set up, and we have a big article about this on Solari.
It is set up so that all stablecoin issuers have to plug into the Treasury's pipe where the Treasury applies its know-your-customer money laundering and sanctions.
And if you look at that pipe, that pipe can be integrated with a full social credit system.
So, whereas CBDC applies the rules through the central bank, the stable coins apply the rules through the treasury.
And so, if we are working with states, we have Solari has model legislation on stopping programmable money from being misused.
And what we are saying to the states is, look, before the horse leaves the barn, you have to put the bridle in the saddle on the horse.
And so, states can outlaw this.
And we're trying to get the states to make sure, because Treasury is saying, Oh, we would never do that.
Where the stable companies are saying, Oh, we would never do that.
And we're saying, If you would never do that, you don't mind if we pass a law that says you can't do that, right?
And one of the interesting things is the Clarity Act has a provision that outlaws central bank digital currency.
It's been thrown out of the Senate version.
Apparently, they want to reserve the right of the central bank to do that.
And apparently congressmen have said that both in the NDAA and another piece of legislation, the speaker, Speaker Johnson, has stopped their amendments to stop central bank digital currency.
They said he promised them that he would outlaw it.
You know, the president had an executive order promised, they believe they were promised that it would be turned into law.
Johnson has blocked it both times.
So I'm deeply suspicious because if you look at what you can do with stable coins and digital tokens and digital assets, you can implement all programmable money.
But if you leave the authority open to do CBDC at some point, the central banks can come along once the system has gotten going.
And so my attitude is, look, if you guys say you're not going to do this, we can outlaw it now.
Again, put the bridle and the saddle on the horse before you leave the barn.
And the barn, you know, if you end up with 250 trillion outstanding and you haven't put the bridle and saddle on, you got a problem.
We're moving there, although we're trying to slow it down.
So remember, if, you know, if millions of Americans start using cash in size, it can absolutely revolutionize what happens.
So I recommend it.
But if we move there, then if I want you to not be able to leave your home, your money won't work if you leave your home.
If I want you to only be able to eat certain foods, if I want you to be able to eat foods made with insects and not be able to buy real meat, your money won't work to buy real meat.
If I want you to take a vaccine a month and I mandate vaccines for you and your family, if you don't, I'll turn off your money.
So I have complete control of your food, your health care, your spatial travel, everything.
So you are no longer in a democracy or a democratic republic.
You are in a slavery system.
If I want your kids to leave their home and go to a boarding school where I control their education, if you don't agree, I turn off your money.
I can manage a large population in a world where technology is changing without losing control.
So I can, a small group of people can control the many.
And also, if I believe that with life science, I can live forever or for much longer lifetimes, I can either depopulate or control people who are angry that I'm living to be 145 and they're not.
And I can basically keep them in check, even though, you know, so the mega-rich can live a very different luxurious life and control or shrink the rest of the population, you know, without fear because they have complete control.
So bottom line, in a time of radical technological change, which we're living through right now, the obvious, the first result is like societal chaos and revolutions and wars.
And that's why I got the Bolsheviks, et cetera, et cetera.
The people pushing this technological change or watching it from positions of authority know this.
And so the control grid would allow the transition to whatever this technological future is without the downside of like a Bolshevik revolution.
When you go from being an egalitarian society or at least a society that sees egalitarianism as the goal, a Christian society, to something else, then the attitudes of the people in charge just become so bad.
Well, but here's what's interesting because I have had a very unique life.
And so I've had the privilege of living at the top, in the middle, and the bottom.
And what's amazing when you go back and forth between these different groups, the people at the top have no clue why the people at the bottom are behaving the way they're being.
It's just the ignorance between the different groups is unbelievable.
And I will tell you, I've said many times: if I have to go down the river, I want to go with people from Hickory Valley, Tennessee, instead of there's a whole world of people who've got 180 IQ in Silicon Valley, and they are stupid as attack because they float on it on rigged black budget and federal government money.
They have no insight into fundamental economics.
That's why I love Massey because Massey understands bottom-up economics.
And these, we have such a huge, you know, we have cycled brilliant people through universities and put them into places where they are so divorced from fundamental economics or the math of time and money because they are floating on a sea of black budget and government money.
So she was basically saying, as long as we keep your 401ks up, we can do all this stuff and it's okay with you because historically, that is the truth.
So if you look at how we've allowed ourselves to fall behind in technology and in national security and in all the areas that matter to be strong on the outside, you know, we've put ourselves, it's one thing to have a corrupt leadership.
It's another thing to have a corrupt, incompetent leadership.
And what I would say is our leadership has not done, you know, if you disrespect the hoi polloi and you say, okay, I want to be the elite and have total control.
Well, then you need to be competent at your job, right?
Now, I don't underestimate the damage they can do before they fail.
But, you know, one thing I will say about China, if there's an argument for China's success, it is because it has a Mandarin class and it has a tradition, you know, of hundreds of years of that Mandarin class.
And that's what you need.
The reason I left Washington in 1998 and I said, I'm out.
These guys are going to fail is, you know, whether it's the group destroying the, you know, our equivalent of the Mandarin class or the Mandarin class itself, they did not have a culture, an ethic, a vision that could go the distance.
They weren't good to build an advanced civilization.
So it has a long-term arc and it has the discipline to achieve that by keeping each in making each individual sovereign with integrity, but disciplined to the vision and the order.
So, you know, it doesn't let the power go to its head.
I'll never forget when I first went to Washington.
I was, I had been trained my whole life to deal with massive amounts of financial power without letting it go to my head.
And you got to Washington and you could look around the room and you could see the people who also had that training.
They knew this was not their money or their credit.
It belonged to the country and they were there as a fiduciary for a temporary period of time to manage it.
And they took the time to understand the laws and the rules and to collaborate with other people to do so.
You got other people who were there, didn't have that background or training, and suddenly it's my money, it's my portfolio, it goes to their head and they literally, you know, they get drunk on power and they can't handle it.
It's like they can't, it's like looking at an electrical system that can't handle that voltage.
And what you had, you've gone through a process in Washington where I saw all the people who had been trained the way I had been trained who got pushed out because they wouldn't break the law and they wouldn't do stupid things.
And they got pushed out and you just got yes men, yes men, yes men.
And now you've got something that has no, it doesn't have a culture that can handle the voltage.
I said it to the Solari team at the beginning of the year: our motto for this year is rock and roll.
Because the disruption is not only so chaotic and unpredictable, you know, it's impossible to predict it.
Because you're talking when you have, if you go back and you look at when information technology innovates dramatically, like, you know, the telephone or the telegraph, what happens is you not only dramatically improve the or speed up the innovation in each area, but the connections and integration between areas in ways that, you know, it's beyond our you couldn't anticipate.
You can't anticipate.
You can't predict it.
And so if you look at the speed of change, it's, but I, I think if you look at every group I watch, you know, geopolitically or financially, events are going to outrun us all and they're going to surprise us all.
And so we're going into an out-of-control situation.
Now, the people who run, in my experience, the people who run the financial system always have a plan B, C, D, and have thought things ahead.
You know, whether it's the plants, the animals, the people.
Yes, we share intelligence, and it's not through our brain, it's through our whole body, through our energy, everything.
So so anyway, but the new science of heaven is really about plasma and how it's alive and intelligent.
Now, what i'm going to tell you, I don't care how much programmable money you have, how many biometrics you have, how many digital ids you have, how many drones you know dod is going to buy a million drones a year how many drones you have flying overhead, I don't care.
There's no way you can control the entire universe.
Do you know what I mean?
And if you understand what, what Temple and Bohm and these guys are saying about how the universe works, it's out of control.
Now, what you can do is you can interact with it with love and intention and integrity.
You know, but it's out of control, and I absolutely believe that, and that's why I think this whole digital control model is going to fail.
I just want to make sure you're describing the Tower Of Babel.
So if you and I were going to make a taxonomy of all knowledge in our world, there is knowledge that relates to things that we can see.
So this table or this wall or this painting, you know it's real, we can see it, it's concrete okay, so there's a material world um, but then there's a whole world that's invisible, either because it's spiritual, or it may be material, but it's like the wi-fi in the room, we can't see it.
So there's a whole part of our reality, whether it's uh, what I call the morphogenic field, so shared intelligence, or your energetic body, or my energetic body or um, you know, or the wi-fi in the room, whether it's material or spiritual.
There's a whole world that's invisible.
And what you see in sort of in the American culture in my lifetime is, people become more and more focused on what they can see that's material.
So we have, you know, so we're very excited because we're doing this program called the Young Builders.
It's one of the reasons I'm in Florida.
And one of our challenges is, can we help this group of young people to get a good enough map of both the visible and the invisible so that they can, you know, they have a balanced map and can live a balanced life and access the power to be accessed from, you know, from really understanding and seeing the invisible and knowing that it's very real and not falling prey to being a hyper materialist.
And if you look at what, you know, there's one of my favorite scriptures in the Bible is the prayers of a righteous man availeth much.
And one of the things I've learned in my life is that, you know, so I was an investment advisor and all my clients would show up and say, we want you to help us use our money to keep them safe.
And what I would tell you is in this kind of environment with this kind of change, you can only be safe if you have spiritual protection, if you have spiritual intelligence, if you have spiritual authority, and if you can relate with other people in a way that you can build relationships of trust, and that kind of integrity and trust is invisible.
You know, but if you look at what can endure during periods like this, that's what endures.
That's what you can't.
You know, Corinthians says faith, hope, and charity.
Those are the things that endure that you can't lose.
And they're real.
It just takes many years of living and living around people who do it to see that it's real.
If you, if you just, you know, there's not enough time to do all that risk management against the bad guys, if you just focus your energy on getting in good with the good guys, you will get protected.
So I took, I once, I, you know, when the litigation began, I took a full one-year Bible course, which was one of the most amazing courses I ever took in my life because the teachers were fantastic.
And it was riveting.
It was on Monday night after work.
And I, when I first got there, there were like 200 people.
And I thought, this is never going to last.
Nobody in Washington's going to show up on Monday night again and again during the winter.
Every week it got bigger.
The class grew because the teaching was so amazing.
My favorite parable, I think, is the guy who was a good year with his crops.
So he builds new storehouses to store them and then he finishes them, fills them full of crops and says, I'm going to take a year off and just enjoy my bounty.
And then he drops dead immediately.
So you made reference a minute ago to art and that you just ran a piece on art, appreciating art, loving art.
Given your background in monetary policy, finance, why are you commissioning pieces about art?
Okay, so I'm going to go way out and come back in.
If you want to have a successful society and a successful financial system, one of the most important questions in a financial system is who or what enforces?
You know, who makes the rules and who enforces?
The only way to have a really successful financial system is to have enforcement done primarily by culture.
You know, I am, I'll give you an example from Bible class.
I once had my teacher in Bible class ask me about the Solari model.
And I explained it to her.
And she said, oh, you're making it much too complicated.
It's in Leviticus.
It says we have to take care of ourselves.
We have to take care of the land and we have to take care of each other.
And I said, that's it.
There you go.
So she was right.
But that's an example of enforcement by culture, the obligation that I have to take care of myself, but I also have to take care of the land and the people around me.
Okay.
So that's an example of enforcement by culture.
Anyway, so I decided, okay, at the Solari report, we have to do something to help build the culture.
And I brought you the Coming Clean book.
And that is a sort of an overview of all the things we think are important if you want to build a culture that will do a really good job of taking care of yourself, but in a way that takes care of others and the land.
So, so, but I was thinking, okay, what can we do at the Solari Report to help people really understand and relate to culture?
So I was out in California and I had a dear friend, Nina Hine, who had just left this big high power job at publicity of one of the studios.
And I said to her, she was thinking about what do I do next?
And I said, if you could do anything you wanted, what would you do?
And she said, I would travel the world going to museums and writing about it.
And I said, you're hired.
So she started a column called Food for the Soul.
And she started writing these columns.
We would pay her budget to go travel the world and see the museum.
She has a, she's Polish and so she has an apartment of war so it goes back and forth between Europe and California.
And she started writing these columns.
And it turns out Nina's absolutely brilliant.
I mean, just off the charts, brilliant, and understands the economic and the history of all the different art she's writing about and the periods.
And these columns are absolutely fascinating.
And we started to write it.
And after a couple of years, all these sort of major periodicals started to do the same thing.
Nina would get very upset.
And she said, they're copying me.
And I said, that's a compliment, Nina.
That's great.
Anyway, so it grew and grew.
And what happened is the Soleri team would start going to the museums with her when she was in town.
So, you know, when she came to the, she came to Europe when we were celebrating the year of Da Vinci in 2019.
I'm a huge Da Vinci fan.
And so we, the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam had all the Rembrandts.
And then we went to all the things in Italy and then to the Louvre for Da Vinci.
And the Saleri team started coming.
And then their wives started or husbands started coming.
And, you know, we all started going with her.
And so we started doing interviews about art and why it was relevant or why Da Vinci was relevant or why Vermeer was relevant or the golden age of the Dutch painters.
So we have a, you know, we have a company in the Netherlands.
Anyway, it grew and grew.
And finally, we said, let's, we did a wrap-up called Visions of Freedom, which she wrote of all the art that inspired freedom and talked about freedom and encouraged freedom.
And that was very, very successful.
And so we decided now we would roll it up into loving art.
And the Young Builder, she's teaching one of the courses for the Young Builders because we think art is incredibly important to encouraging culture and helping people, you know, sort of connect to both the material and the non-material.
And that's, if you read Coming Clean, the critical issue is, are you doing everything you can to remove the demonic from your everyday life and integrate the divine in your everyday life?
And the more people who do that, by doing that, I protect myself and my family.
And as I detox the evil from my life, I deny the evil, the energy, and the food I'm giving it, which helps everybody else.
The power we have, I'm not saying that the political mechanism isn't an opportunity to make change because I think in election year it is.
The greatest power we have is how we use our time, how we use our attention, and how we use our money in our daily lives.
And if we will revolutionize that by coming clean, think of this as a detox.
If you will get, you know, I call the system, the centralizing system, the tapeworm, if you will get the tapeworm out of your life, not only will you get stronger, but you will help everybody else get stronger because you're denying the energy to the tapeworm.
So the first thing you do is you start with faith because everybody's different.
And so if you read Come and Clean, and I should say it's up on our website, it's public.
Anybody can get the PDF.
Everybody's different.
And so it's very important that you apply the mathematics of your time and money in a way which is energizing for you.
It's got to be practical.
But the first thing you can start to do, for example, and I'll talk money because that's my love.
You can use cash.
Okay.
And you can stop shopping.
You can stop using the banks.
So if you're banking with one of the big banks that created the great financial crisis, that's an opportunity for you to get your money out of those.
But you can bank with a bank that didn't cause the good financial and is helping your local community be successful.
So there are good banks and they're bad banks.
You can shift your money into a good bank.
You cannot shop with the companies that are basically building the control grid and you cannot finance them.
If you look at most people's 401ks right now, they're very overconcentrated in seven to 10 stocks that are basically making money by building the control grid.
Now, many, many years ago, I was an investment advisor and I changed my company to Investment Screen.
And we were very quiet about it because I wanted to make sure that we could find plenty of companies that are not engaged in what I would call systemic organized crime or building the control grid.
There are hundreds of them.
There are hundreds of great companies that are just doing the work of the world and are not engaged in organized crime.
You can invest in them.
You can invest in local farmers to get your food.
You know, there are many different things you can do, but you can make sure your time and money is going to support the things that are good for you.
One of the most important is health.
So if you look at what bankrupts families in America, it's poor health.
And that comes from poor nutrition and from getting involved in the medical system in a way that's unhealthy for you.
And what I used to find when I was investment advisors is people would tell me, you know, who are millionaires and had a fortune.
They would tell me, I can't afford biodynamic or organic food.
I was like, you can't not afford that.
You know, you're crazy.
If you have millions of dollars in your brokerage account and you are eating cheap food, you know, you are making a terrible financial decision.
Anyway, so if you, there, there are 25 items in Come and Clean and you can go through all of them, but they're all about whether it's your time, your money.
One of them, of course, is getting good intelligence.
So if they're watching Tucker Carlson, they already know what to do.
But I can't tell you how many times I had clients who would watch the major networks and just, you know, they would have a bad map of the world and make terrible mistakes because they weren't getting good intelligence.
So if you look at the infrastructure that's being put into place, so DOD says that they're going to buy a million drones a year.
If you look at the what has been, I don't know if you saw the latest testimony about ICE, Whistleblower claiming that he was trained to teach ICE agents how to break the law.
So if you look at the drones, if you look at what's happening with the local control grid with the flock cameras, the satellites, everything, they're looking to put into place the hardware where they can shut down free speech.
Now, are we going to let it go into place?
If you look at the pushback, the pushback is extraordinary.
And so it's not clear to me that they'll succeed to do that.
I don't know.
But I will tell you now, if we don't push back hard now and keep pushing back, they will shut down free speech.
They'll shut down.
Well, the control grid will shut down the First Amendment, the Second Amendment.
It seems like the reason that everyone you run into at this point is like reassessing all previous assumptions is because you can read whatever you want now online.
It does seem like that has been the pivotal change in the last 10 years.
Well, I think what happened, I think most people, so I call it this way.
If I have a computer and I have 50 databases and you bring me a database that says I've got to change my operating system, that's too hard because I've got to change 50 databases and everything.
I think when you, a friend of mine used to call it getting hit by the smite button, when the system betrays you in a way that is very harmful to you, whether because you're injured by pharmaceuticals or the medical system or your money is stolen in the financial crisis, when the system does something that really harms you, it forces you to change your operating system.
And I think the panda, I think the financial crisis harmed a lot of people, but then the pandemic really harmed a lot of people.
And I, you know, I will tell you, Tucker, I, I, you know, we were warning people from the beginning, don't take the shot, don't take the shot, don't take the shot.
And then at the end of 2022, I were big Wim Hoff fans.
So at the end of 22, Wim Hoff had just published the Wim Hoff method.
And I said to, I sent an email to everybody at Christmas time and I said, if you've been harmed by COVID, let us know and we will send you a free copy of the Wim Hoff method because we think this can really help.
And we ended up giving away 250 copies because we would get these letters.
They would write in and they would say what had happened to them as a result of the lockdowns and losing their job or the shot.
Tucker, I'm not a sentimental person.
I would burst into tears reading these stories.
It was so horrible.
And we just kept buying books and giving them away because, you know, I would get these letters that say, this is the first time anybody's done anything nice to me for three years, you know, and it was so helpful to people.
And, you know, Wim Hoff is such a loving presence in people's lives and he makes you laugh and he and the method really helps.
So we just kept getting more books and giving them away because it was so horrible.
And I think the pandemic shifted a lot of people because they realized our leaders not only don't care about us, they are absolutely willing to kill us.
Yeah, but I have to tell you that, you know, if you look at the joy that comes from that kind of power, if you look at the joy of creating life, it's so much more powerful.
You said at the outset of this year, I think a lot of people approached it with trepidation, feeling like, ooh, the foundations are definitely trembling in the West.
You approached it with like excitement.
You said rock and roll with China.
So what's that?
Why are you optimistic and everyone else is panicked?
Oh, well, but the Friesians are, you know, these are the horses that knights would ride.
They're chargers.
They're, you know, they have huge hearts.
They're very powerful.
And that's the energy you have to go into this year.
Because remember, if the world is alive and intelligent with, you know, if it's a plasma world, then we have to attract to us the energy we need to build.
Everything's thrown up and now we have to build it.
We have to create it.
That's why we're calling the young builders builders.
You know, everything's being thrown up in the air.