Dec. 13, 2023 - The Tucker Carlson Show
01:06:20
| 
| Speaker | Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| Human beings have recorded seeing strange moving lights in the sky since, well, the beginning of known history. | ||
| The record goes back thousands of years. | ||
| What is that? | ||
| We don't know. | ||
| In the United States, people have been talking a lot about these strange lights, UFOs, since the Second World War, when military pilots recorded seeing things they called Foo Fighters out their cockpit windows. | ||
| They had no idea what they were. | ||
| For the last 80 years, it seems like there has been a continuous increase in the settings of these things, these UFOs or UAPs. | ||
| And there's a whole industry that has grown up around describing what they are or may be. | ||
| But it wasn't until very recently, within the last 18 months, that former government officials began stepping forward in public to say what they believe they are. | ||
| People with direct, first-hand knowledge of the government's interactions. | ||
| With these objects or vehicles or people or whatever they are. | ||
| One such person who has come forward recently is a longtime military intelligence officer, an Air Force major called Dave Grush. | ||
| He's made a number of very interesting claims in public, including at congressional hearings. | ||
| For example, here he is telling the Congress that, in fact, the U.S. government has retrieved bodies, or as he puts it, biologics. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Do you believe that officials at the highest levels of our national security apparatus have unlawfully withheld information from Congress and subverted our oversight authority? | |
| There are certain elected leaders that had more information that I'm not sure what they've shared with certain gang of eight members or et cetera, but certainly I would not be surprised. | ||
|
unidentified
|
You say that the government is in possession of potentially non-human spacecraft. | |
| Based on your experience and extensive conversations with experts, do you believe our government has made contact with intelligent extraterrestrials? | ||
| Something I can't discuss in a public setting. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay, I can't ask when you think this occurred. | |
| If you believe we have crashed craft, stated earlier, do we have the bodies of the pilots who piloted this craft? | ||
| As I've stated publicly already in my News Nation interview, biologics came with some of these recoveries. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Were they, I guess, human or non-human biologics? | |
| Non-human, and that was the assessment of people with direct knowledge on the program I talked to that are currently still on the program. | ||
|
unidentified
|
And was this documentary references, video, photos, eyewitness? | |
| Like, how would that be determined? | ||
| The specific documentation I would have to talk to you in a SCIF about. | ||
| SCIF being a secure location where the highest classified intelligence can be discussed among people who have permission to hear it. | ||
| Dave Gresh is the man you just saw in that video. | ||
| He joins us now. | ||
| Thanks so much for coming on. | ||
| So before you get into fleshing out some of what you told Nancy Mace in that clip. | ||
| Tell us about your background. | ||
| Who are you? | ||
| Where are you from? | ||
| What have you spent your life doing? | ||
| Yeah, I spent my entire life growing up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. | ||
| Son of a very normal income, typical family. | ||
| Spent most of my youth playing basketball and tennis, and I ended up going to the University of Pittsburgh, where I went into Air Force ROTC. I had a full scholarship in physics at the time. | ||
| And yeah, born and bred in Pittsburgh. | ||
| And then once I graduated Pitt, I ended up commissioning in the Air Force as a second lieutenant and went on active duty. | ||
| And I ended up spending 14 years in the Air Force, both active duty and reserve. | ||
| And also I became a government civilian at the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency. | ||
| And I was lucky enough to be brought in at the GS-15 level, which is equivalent to like a full bird colonel civilian. | ||
| National Geospatial on MacArthur Boulevard in D.C. It's in Springfield, Virginia. | ||
| Oh, it is? | ||
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. | ||
| Fort Beauvoir. | ||
| Right. | ||
| What is that, by the way? | ||
| So that agency collects all imagery, other types of visual intelligence to make fused products called geospatial intelligence products. | ||
| So think about the National Reconnaissance Office, you know, flies the bus, so to speak. | ||
| They fly the satellites. | ||
| The National Geospatial Intelligence Agency processes. | ||
| Okay, so if there's stuff floating above the Earth, it's their job to know about it, I assume? | ||
| Process the intelligence coming off, you know, satellites flying around the Earth, yes. | ||
| So you spent over 14 years in this world. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| And then suddenly the rest of us encounter you in public saying that the U.S. government has very detailed knowledge of what these things are and has for a long time. | ||
| Yeah, I had no personal interest in the UFO subject, really. | ||
| You know, certainly I grew up and I saw stuff in the History Channel, that kind of thing. | ||
| But having studied physics, became an intel officer, I was very agnostic about the subject. | ||
| And I was in a position of extreme trust. | ||
| You know, I handled the presidential daily brief for my agency's director at the National Reconnaissance Office when I was an Air Force Reserve officer. | ||
| It was widely cleared to most black programs in the Department of Defense. | ||
| What's a black program? | ||
| You know, a special access program. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And, um, I figured kind of, uh, uh, that I would know if, if that kind of program exists, it was kind of a joke between, you know, myself and other colleagues over the years, like, ha ha, when are we going to get read into, you know, the UFO stuff? | ||
| And we thought that it was a total joke, but it wasn't until, um, you know, I saw the New York times article in 2017 and, and I, what was that article? | ||
| So that was a story about Lou Elizondo and other individuals that ran the AATIP program and the OSSAT program, so Advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems Applications Program. | ||
| To be clear, I think the government has never admitted that he was, or denied in fact, that Elizondo was involved in that. | ||
| No, he certainly was. | ||
| I remember in a very senior official's office in McLean. | ||
| Briefing that senior official into about a couple hundred special access programs because at the time I was a trusted individual advising the Joint Chiefs on Certain black programs. | ||
| And I remember that individual who was a co-worker of, you know, Lou Elizondo mentioned, oh, there's this guy named Lou Elizondo over at the Pentagon. | ||
| He's running some UFO program. | ||
| We think he lost his mind. | ||
| He's giving the Undersecretary Defense for Intelligence a hard time. | ||
| And this was six months prior to that Leslie Clean. | ||
| Ralph Blumenthal article in December 2017. And I was like, I don't know who this Lou guy is. | ||
| He sounds crazy to me because I don't know about some UFO program. | ||
| But little did I know, about six or seven months after that, I saw that on the news. | ||
| And that's what caught my attention because I'm like, I heard about this guy. | ||
| Didn't realize that program was for real. | ||
| And it turns out it was. | ||
| Uh, I spent a year kind of just doing like an open source lit review. | ||
| And then in early 2019, just by happenstance, uh, my boss forwarded me an email from the UAP task force director asking, Hey, we need a rep from the NRO to help the task force. | ||
| Do you got anybody? | ||
| And you know, my, my boss knew I was reservist and I was looking for something to do to put on my performance report. | ||
| Um, and, and I, of course I said, yes. | ||
| So, cause I figured. | ||
| I'd figure out if it was something prosaic, like natural phenomenon. | ||
| If it's a blue US program that people are seeing that people think is a UFO, but it's not. | ||
| Or it's maybe some adversarial program that maybe our intelligence community missed in their intelligence collection analysis. | ||
| All fair guesses. | ||
| I went in proving a negative. | ||
| I was open to the idea of non-human intelligence because as a guy... | ||
| Got his bachelor's in physics. | ||
| There's something called the Drake equation. | ||
| Calculates the number of potential civilizations in the Milky Way based on certain factors. | ||
| And people can Google that and play around with it. | ||
| So I was open to it, but I didn't think that was going to be the answer. | ||
| So you were detailed to this? | ||
| I was. | ||
| It was my official duty as an Air Force officer. | ||
| And then eventually, when NGA hired me as a government civilian... | ||
| The UAP portfolio came to myself and a few other individuals within our agency to support the UAP task force initially. | ||
| But, of course, that office transitioned to the ARO office, the All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office. | ||
| So you, by this point, worked in the government for a long time. | ||
| Yeah, I did. | ||
| Yeah, I mean, count my cadet time in uniform. | ||
| I've been in uniform 18 years. | ||
| How was this different? | ||
| This was different because... | ||
| I started to uncover, you know, some very disturbing facts. | ||
| I had people come to me. | ||
| I had access to the classified archives from those previous UFO programs that Lou Elizondo and others ran years prior. | ||
| And, you know, I read some extremely interesting foreign intelligence that was derived by, you know, clandestine human sources overseas, And noting about the U.S., they're like, yeah, the U.S. has a retrieval program, reverse engineering program. | ||
| And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. | ||
| This was the assessment of other countries. | ||
| Other countries, yeah. | ||
| And by the way, I ran all this through DOD security and pre-publication review, mind you. | ||
| So anything I say in detail, I'm a steward of security. | ||
| I care about national security. | ||
| And I would never want to say something publicly that would hamper national security, just to put that out there. | ||
| But what an interesting way to find out. | ||
| You're reading the assessment of countries that are spying on us, and we've spied on their assessments of us. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| And I had a chain of custody on how we got that information. | ||
| And I thought maybe, oh, this is passage material. | ||
| We've got to be very careful. | ||
| Which passage material would be like a form of disinformation to try to trick a case officer to develop a relationship with said asset. | ||
| So I was like, well, wait a minute. | ||
| Is this true? | ||
| A certain adversary of ours thinks apparently this is true. | ||
| And, you know, one thing led to another. | ||
| And, you know, I did talk to extremely, extremely senior officials, both former directors of certain agencies. | ||
| I had the privilege of having a relationship with them, and I talked to them about this issue, and they confirmed those details. | ||
| And what was really interesting in the previous... | ||
| UFO programs records, so the OSAP program, which ran roughly 2008 to 2010 or so, and that was in the Defense Intelligence Agency. | ||
| And this has been released by FOIA. You can actually go to DIA's website and read this, but the paperwork included this very odd request from Senator Harry Reid. | ||
| He sent a letter to the Deputy Secretary of Defense asking for something called a Provisional Special Access Program or PSAP. I've never seen in my career a member of Congress ask the Department of Defense to develop a very classified program. | ||
| Usually it's the reverse, right? | ||
| Congress wants more transparency and classification. | ||
| I'm like, this is very odd. | ||
| I don't know what's going on here. | ||
| Why is Harry Reid saying that the OSAP program found something they needed to develop this provisional special access program that is waived and bigoted, which is the most serious of SAPs. | ||
| Waived means it's limited congressionally reported. | ||
| It's 10 U.S. Code Section 119. And bigoted means it's like by name. | ||
| And there was a list of individuals that needed to be briefed. | ||
| Of course, Senator Reid, Inouye, and a couple members of Gang of Eight wanted to be on it. | ||
| And so I asked people that both worked on that program, but also people that were tangential to it that worked in certain intelligence agencies. | ||
| So what was this about? | ||
| Well, you know, a certain clear defense contractor wanted to transfer some of their material holdings. | ||
| To DIA for our program. | ||
| It was all crash retrieval material. | ||
| And this was a way to horizontally protect, as we call it, that information and that physical material from a certain other government program and custodian that lent that contractor material in the past. | ||
| And I was like, wait, are you saying we have UFO material? | ||
| That's crazy. | ||
| Are you sure it's UFO material? | ||
| This isn't like we went and got a wreckage of a Russian bomber and it just happened to be weird or something like that. | ||
| And no, they were dead serious. | ||
| And what was their sort of tone or effect when they said like, of course? | ||
| Well, they certainly, I guess they're a little bit jaded and the reality to them is not shocking. | ||
| But I was so intrigued by this. | ||
| Not only did I interview... | ||
| Ten people that were in the meetings that, you know, talked to the clear defense contractor, were involved in trying to persuade the government customer to release custodianship to give it ultimately to DIA and Bigelow Aerospace. | ||
| I actually flew to Las Vegas and I actually met with Senator Harry Reid himself after he retired. | ||
| Of course, you know, the former majority leader. | ||
| And I wanted to hear it right from his mouth. | ||
| Who had a longtime interest in this topic. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| You know, he confirmed that to me. | ||
| He's like, yes, I was told this clear defense contractor had material. | ||
| This was the way to get it. | ||
| And, you know, he told me that he knew that contractor had material for decades. | ||
| However, the Pentagon has always denied him access to actually go see that. | ||
| And he literally told me that in his living room to my face. | ||
| And he ultimately made that disclosure to the New Yorker. | ||
| If I could just ask you to pause. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| How could the Pentagon, which has no authority of any kind, accept the extent it serves elected officials? | ||
| It's not its own country. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| They're just employees like your housekeeper. | ||
| They work for politicians who are elected by their people. | ||
| How can they deny an elected official access to something? | ||
| Yeah, and that's part of why I whistleblow, right? | ||
| This constitutional intervention government oversight issue. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| So, and elected leaders, even in the normal black sap community, they're treated as second-class citizens. | ||
| Oh, we're going to waive reporting. | ||
| I'm DepSecDef. | ||
| I can sign an order saying we're not going to fully brief certain committees on programs. | ||
| You've seen that? | ||
| That is in public law, 10 U.S. Code Section 119, and that is Congressional Oversight of Saps is the title of that part of public law. | ||
| But the department, which I find, you know, in retrospect... | ||
| Very weird where the legislators authorize and appropriate for these programs, but they're not afforded full access. | ||
| And occasionally Gang of Eight will get those kind of briefings, but literally they could withhold, besides notifying a program that stood up, the entire Congress that we're doing some kind of clandestine activity. | ||
| It's almost unbelievable. | ||
| I mean, they have no moral authority to do that, of course, under our Constitution. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Can I just ask, and I don't want to get caught up on this because it's the least interesting part, but it is, I think, significant. | ||
| What about the executive? | ||
| Do you believe they withheld information from sitting presidents? | ||
| Yeah, it's funny you ask that. | ||
| So the executive was initially involved in the secrecy on the UAP topic. | ||
| They transposed the Manhattan Project secrecy construct onto this. | ||
| Eventually, and then they formed, you know, the Atomic Energy Act, what was the McMahon Act of 46, the Atomic Energy Act of 54, and they purposely diluted the definition of, like, special nuclear material. | ||
| If you actually read Section 51 of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, it says, you know, Besides normal nuclear material, we can also protect stuff that is similar, and it's a very broad definition, and that's basically the justification of the secrecy on this topic, | ||
| is the material that we recover sometimes does have radioactive properties, and so they legally and gymnastically twisted the public law to justify the secrecy. | ||
| I have so many questions for you, and I'm getting in the way of your narrative, which is terrific. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| So before I interrupted you, you were saying, so you all of a sudden realized this is real. | ||
| And then it sounds like you said you interviewed 10 people. | ||
| It sounds like you decided to find out as much as you could. | ||
| Yeah, we interviewed roughly 40 people, many of which had firsthand knowledge. | ||
| Like I said, we were privileged to interview people at the same kind of level as Harry Reid, for example. | ||
| And Harry was just so concerned about this. | ||
| You know, when I left the meeting with him, he said he was going to go talk to President Biden. | ||
| Him and President Biden had like a weekly call. | ||
| And this is about nine months before his death. | ||
| Certainly his mind was sharp, but, you know, he was struggling with his health issues. | ||
| For sure. | ||
| But, you know, he was so concerned about our conversation, which was unclassified because I was in his living room. | ||
| But he was going to go talk to the president because he understood that even himself as a Gang of Eight member. | ||
| And the majority leader, for goodness sakes, was denied access. | ||
| And going back to your earlier question about presidents, you know, many administrations ago a lot of the presidents were in the know, right? | ||
| However, it's vacillated over the years where certain chief executives aren't necessarily briefed all aspects of the program. | ||
| So you have, you know, commander-in-chief is also our chief diplomat, and they do need to know if there is a foreign entity, adversary, friend, whatever, out there so they can form foreign policy for the country. | ||
| But when you are not telling, it's like classifying the existence of Russia. | ||
| But it's also they have no moral authority to do it. | ||
| They have no authority to even have their jobs without the authority that comes from the votes of the population. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Mm-hmm. | |
| Through the elected officials. | ||
| Well, that's the issue. | ||
| It's a symptom of the overclassification of this whole secret national security state that was formed in 1947. And they're basically classifying basic physics, basic astrobiology, that kind of stuff. | ||
| And that's, do we classify nuclear physics? | ||
| No. | ||
| You can study at a university. | ||
| So let's, since I keep interrupting, let's just go to the beginning. | ||
| Tell us what you know about the genesis of this. | ||
| I'll start with the most obvious question, which is you said the secrecy surrounding these programs derived from the secrecy surrounding the Manhattan Project. | ||
| Is there any connection between the two? | ||
| Not overtly, but certainly during the Manhattan Project. | ||
| No, let me be more specific. | ||
| Do you think that the development of nuclear weapons was derived anyway from technology from these? | ||
| No, no, no, no. | ||
| But I think... | ||
| That was totally independent. | ||
| But I think it might have precipitated interest from these objects. | ||
| From these objects, yes. | ||
| So the most famous, obviously, Roswell in 1947. Yeah, I can't talk about many retrievals. | ||
| The only one I've stated publicly is the 1933 Italian event. | ||
| So tell us what that is. | ||
| So I picked that event specifically because it was not U.S.-centric. | ||
| And I wanted to expose that this is a worldwide problem, not just a U.S.-centric problem. | ||
| So that was a, you know, recovery of an artifact by the Axis powers, Italy and Germany and Magenta, Italy in 1933. Much of that information, ironically, was in the public vernacular starting in the early 2000s. | ||
| There were certain researchers in Italy that uncovered these documents that Mussolini sent to the Gestapo or the Italian equivalent of the Gestapo. | ||
| Otherwise, however, that was one specific recovery that was briefed to me by a senior intelligence officer. | ||
| Well, I mean, since it was 90 years ago in Fascist Italy, I think we're safe in telling what we know, correct? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So, like, what happened? | ||
| So, you know, they recovered this object. | ||
| It looked like an acorn. | ||
| And the intelligence officer that briefed me and, we'll just say, senior officials on Capitol Hill during a certain private session described how the edges of this, it was like a lenticular disc-looking thing, but the edges broke off when it hit the earth. | ||
| So it looked like an acorn or like a bell shape. | ||
| When they recovered it, it was just an artifact. | ||
| They didn't find anything with it. | ||
| And, you know, the Italians kept custody of that towards the end of the war. | ||
| And then, you know, the Americans came in and recovered it. | ||
| And we knew about it because it turns out the Vatican through Pope Pius XII and the OSS, they sent a communique back to FDR saying, hey, we got something kind of weird that, you know, crashed in Italy. | ||
| And, you know, so this... | ||
| This history is longer than most people think. | ||
| It is not those seminal events that, you know, you may have mentioned to me, but it actually goes back much farther. | ||
| And I wanted to use 1933 as an example, not only to garner international interest, but to, you know, explain it. | ||
| This is, you know, a longer activity than most people think. | ||
| But what you're saying is even, you know, Italy falls in 1945, the Muslim government, and the U.S. Army military swoops in and takes this. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| And then it disappears behind the veil of secrecy. | ||
| Why? | ||
| So they were secretive about it even then. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| How come? | ||
| Well, it was one of those things, it's like a Pandora's box, right? | ||
| If you could analyze it and garner some kind of information from it, from like a reverse engineering perspective, it may give you like an ace-in-the-hole asymmetric advantage over your adversary. | ||
| And, well, we want to figure this out. | ||
| We don't know if Russia's ever found any of this stuff, you know, at the time. | ||
| And... | ||
| And of course, they didn't know the origin of it. | ||
| They just wanted to make sure it wasn't one of our adversaries. | ||
| So they spent years looking at it and developing an intelligence infrastructure to figure out what was going on. | ||
| So is that the first that you know of? | ||
| No, but that was one of the ones I ran through DOD security. | ||
| So you believe there are earlier incidents? | ||
| I don't want to comment either way. | ||
| I know about many other events, but however, that's the only one that I've cleared through. | ||
| Security. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| But you can say for at least this 80 years, the U.S. government has... | ||
| Yeah, at least from 1933, was that about 90 or so, if I'm doing the math right? | ||
| Well, you said the U.S. government didn't take custody until the end of the war. | ||
| That particular one, yes. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| But you are saying the U.S. government had knowledge in the 30s. | ||
| They were aware of the issue back then, yeah. | ||
| Wow. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Mm-hmm. | |
| Huh. | ||
| Stupid question, but one that keeps occurring to me. | ||
| Why would advanced technology like this crash so often? | ||
| Yeah, people ask that. | ||
| I think one of the tropes that a lot of skeptics put out, like, oh, it traveled so far, why did it crash? | ||
| Did it crash by accident or on purpose? | ||
| And there's something called the concept of von Neumann... | ||
| Replicating probes, which you can, you know, Google that. | ||
| You know, a physicist postulated that if you're advanced, you might have throwaway probes. | ||
| I mean, think of like the Voyager spacecraft, for example, right? | ||
| Well, we don't care what the disposition is at the end. | ||
| We just wanted to go as far as possible. | ||
| So the crashes aren't necessarily on purpose. | ||
| And I'm not just saying that as my own personal theory. | ||
| You know, I talked to scientists that were on this program, and this was one of their Legitimate theories that, you know, that is a possibility. | ||
| But you say these subjects came from so far. | ||
| Do we know that? | ||
| Well, that's the thing is you don't really know the origin. | ||
| You know, people, even certain directors of government agencies we talked to about this issue, and they were well aware of this program, you know, they like to use the term extraterrestrial. | ||
| I'm a little skeptical about that. | ||
| That's why, you know, I like to use the term NHI, and that also is non-human intelligence. | ||
| And that is also a term that Chuck Schumer, in the Schumer Amendment, you know, so Chuck Schumer, Senator Gillibrand, Rubio, Rounds, and Young proposed an act called the UAP Disclosure Act of 2023. It's an amendment within the fiscal year 24 National Defense Authorization Act, 67 pages. | ||
| Publicly available. | ||
| It is currently in conference right now. | ||
| And they use the term non-human intelligence, biologics. | ||
| So I'm not the only one using those terms. | ||
| That is, the majority leader, Chuck Schumer, who, by the way, was friends with Harry Reid, and other notable senators are also pushing for transparency in this matter. | ||
| Is there any evidence that these objects are coming from far away through space into our atmosphere? | ||
| That touches some sensitive national technical capabilities I can't cross. | ||
| Sounds like there's some suggestion they're coming from under the ocean. | ||
| I think it's a multi-domain issue, and there are a bunch of potential origins that are based either in physics theory or biological theory, and I'm open to all possibilities. | ||
| Is it known, so far as you know, where they come from? | ||
| There are reasonably confident theories. | ||
| However, I have not seen all the data, and I don't always trust everything certain interview subjects espouse, because I might have an intellectual or data analytical kind of difference in an opinion. | ||
| But I do encourage the president, and through this act, make all data as it relates to origin transparent to the American people. | ||
| Well, if you can't even say it now... | ||
| There's, and I want to get into that, like why the secrecy actually? | ||
| Well, that's the problem is it's actually hindering national security by keeping it so tight because you don't have broad industrial base and broad academic study. | ||
| So just like nuclear physics, you can go and get a PhD in it. | ||
| You can read about it. | ||
| You can study it. | ||
| How you build nuclear weapons, that's classified and that's fine. | ||
| I just want this subject to basically be horizontally protected like nuclear secrets, like true nuclear secrets, where the broad study of which should be open to the public. | ||
| And anything that is really dangerous to release because of weaponization or something, keep that classified. | ||
| But 95% should be open to study throughout the world. | ||
| Well, especially since it sounds pretty clear that the US government's been in contact with whatever these are. | ||
| You wouldn't confirm or deny that in your congressional testimony. | ||
| It seems very clear to me. | ||
| And I won't ask you because you already haven't answered, but that's being done in the name of the U.S. taxpayer, of citizens, of voters. | ||
| And at some point, they have a right to know that. | ||
| I can't imagine what the justification for keeping that from the public, who you work for, what could that be? | ||
| Yeah, I think it's an abuse. | ||
| So Executive Order 13-526, if you read that. | ||
| Delineates the eight reasons you classify information. | ||
| And the only thing that this falls under is, you know, scientific and technical information that has national security implications. | ||
| This is boilerplate. | ||
| And it's really just an abuse at this point. | ||
| And we're overclassifying things out of fear of the socioeconomic, theological, and counterintelligence implications. | ||
| Because I remember talking to a former director of a three-letter agency that we happen. | ||
| To know personally, and we met with. | ||
| And, you know, that former director's biggest issue was the counterintelligence implications. | ||
| We can't let Russia and China figure this. | ||
| Okay, I get that. | ||
| I used to work counterintelligence to protect U.S. programs in a previous job when I was a young Air Force officer. | ||
| But there's got to be a middle ground and not, oh, well, we don't know what to do, so we're just going to keep everything unacknowledged. | ||
| It's ridiculous. | ||
| But it also suggests that there's more going on here. | ||
| I mean, in your own life or my life, the life of any person, the things that you hide, the things you try to keep secret the most assiduously are the things you're most embarrassed about. | ||
| That is true. | ||
| So there was a recent administration that had an informal off-site meeting, and I talked to multiple individuals that were in this in-person meeting. | ||
| With, I'll just say, National Security Council staff of this former administration. | ||
| And one of the biggest issues that they raised was white-collar crime, illegal contracting. | ||
| So there's something called the Federal Acquisition Regulation, the FAR. And if you only give a couple contractors full access for decades of this stuff, and you don't let other contractors compete for work, for money. | ||
| You're giving certain companies an unfair competitive advantage that violates literal U.S. law. | ||
| So it's, you know, we're not going to release anything because then we have to deal. | ||
| And I remember these individuals telling me they were worried that contractors would sue the U.S. government and it would be litigated to the Supreme Court. | ||
| Well, we're out of billions of dollars because you sole-sourced it to these couple companies. | ||
| Of course. | ||
| And there are darker explanations. | ||
| And there's darker things, I'm sure. | ||
| The obvious ones that they told me were very rudimentary, and it's like, well, yeah, well, I'm sorry you guys did that. | ||
| And let's be clear, I'm not here to admonish the entire U.S. government. | ||
| I mean, I know a lot of good people. | ||
| I would have to think I was a good person, a good, you know, intelligence officer. | ||
| Well, I'm the son of a federal employee. | ||
| You don't need to convince me. | ||
| I know. | ||
| So I'm not here to overly admonish everybody. | ||
| I think there needs to be, you know, a... | ||
| Call it a truth and reconciliation process. | ||
| You know, we're not here to shackle people. | ||
| We're not here to get people necessarily in trouble unless they did something grossly illegal and moral and unethical. | ||
| And I suspect, based on people I talk to, there is going to be limited situations where people are going to be found culpable in that. | ||
| But I'm here. | ||
| You know, it's time to reconcile this. | ||
| We need to heal from this. | ||
| You know, we need to disclose the basics. | ||
| The fact that we're not alone. | ||
| We've recovered material, and we've recovered the occupants. | ||
| And beyond that, you know, the president can decide what should be disclosed. | ||
| It's above my pay grade, but the basics should be acknowledged. | ||
| And I think it's a more ontologically shocking but also uniting thing in an era of divisiveness. | ||
| I think we need this. | ||
| I agree with that. | ||
| I mean, what else is going to unite the left, the right? | ||
| And potentially our adversaries. | ||
| I mean, you saw the hearing that you played the clip. | ||
| I had AOC and Matt Gaetz agreeing on something in the same room and not arguing. | ||
| It was crazy. | ||
| So this topic, I think, is maybe we're at a point in our society, especially the decay we've seen over the last 30 years and the divisiveness, whether you're on the left or on the right. | ||
| This is the one topic that I think can basically be a reset button. | ||
| Can you just give us a sense of the scale of these recoveries? | ||
| It's like three, or is it... | ||
| It is double-digit, and I've mentioned that publicly. | ||
| I am familiar with the exact numbers. | ||
| We had multiple intel officers brief us on all the numbers, and where, when, where, how. | ||
| Where is all the stuff kept? | ||
| I mean, I assume... | ||
| I do know of some specific locations. | ||
| Some Boeing, Raytheon warehouse. | ||
| Yeah, I mean... | ||
| Harry Reid knew about one specific location, and that was the material that he was denied access to. | ||
| Why didn't he show up with armed guards and demand to see it? | ||
| I don't understand. | ||
| Everyone's so passive. | ||
| You're the Senate Majority Leader. | ||
| Show it to me now. | ||
| Yeah, you would think that there's some kind of enforcement tactic he could have used. | ||
| He didn't expose anything else besides... | ||
| He was trying to get access administratively by sponsoring that special access program. | ||
| So that kind of raises an interesting, you know, having spent my life in Washington, you know, you hear this stuff, you don't really know if it's true, you know, about unauthorized and dark things going on in the United States to people who tell its secrets. | ||
| But it does raise the question, like, why you? | ||
| It's been going on for, well, you said, I guess, 90 years at least. | ||
| You're suggesting longer, actually. | ||
| But certainly most of a century, and no one's really come forward. | ||
| Like, why is that? | ||
| Yeah, I mean, there have been other people that have come forward. | ||
| Certainly was more stigmatized in the past. | ||
| Why me? | ||
| I was just a guy in the right place in the right time. | ||
| I happened to be ultra-cleared in the DoD and IC at the time, and I generally knew who to talk to, where the skeletons were for other U.S. activities. | ||
| But what's your motive? | ||
| My motive really is just, you know, Air Force core values, you know, service before self, integrity first. | ||
| And I just did not want to, you know, look back 30 years from now and be like, I should have done something when this topic was, you know, acceptable in Congress. | ||
| We had all this momentum. | ||
| I just did not want to live out my life keeping this secret like these other gentlemen and ladies that came to me and my group. | ||
| On the UAP Task Force, because they wanted a change. | ||
| You know, some of them were in tears, because they were threatened over the years. | ||
| Threatened by whom? | ||
| Both the program, because you can imagine, hey, we're going to read you in. | ||
| This is treason. | ||
| You will go to the Leavenworth, and you will be executed if you ever divulge these secrets, right? | ||
| So they were intimidated. | ||
| Have fun at trial. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well... | |
| The judicial process doesn't work quite the same on that program, but that's sensitivity. | ||
| Oh, they don't have the Constitution in place? | ||
| I don't want to get into that. | ||
| Why doesn't someone just tear down the U.S. government? | ||
| This is so rotten that it's kind of hard to believe it's actually in existence. | ||
| I lost a lot of sleep on this, but when I started getting attacked on the inside and the reprisal started happening for three years, I knew I was over the target, so to speak. | ||
| You take fire when you're over the target, as we say in the Air Force. | ||
| And it just got so crazy. | ||
| I had three agencies investigate me at the same time. | ||
| Somehow... | ||
| Which ones? | ||
| Don't want to say, because there's an ongoing reprisal investigation on my behalf by the Inspector General to look in into all this that's going on. | ||
| So I don't want to compromise that investigation by saying too many details. | ||
| But I was investigated by three agencies at once. | ||
| They tried to dig up anything they could find on me. | ||
| They tried to use... | ||
| Mental health issues I reported in my past. | ||
| I've been in Afghanistan. | ||
| I got PTSD. I have a VA disability rating because of that. | ||
| I had a friend that blew up. | ||
| I had a friend that had killed himself. | ||
| And, you know, that impacted me when I was a younger guy in my 20s. | ||
| But I got help. | ||
| No problem. | ||
| I maintained my clearance. | ||
| But they dug up stuff from almost a decade ago saying, oh, he has, you know, ongoing issues, that kind of thing. | ||
| Certainly was not the case. | ||
| I was taking care of myself. | ||
| You know, I have high functioning autism and, you know, and I had to learn how to manage my emotions and got help maintain my clearance. | ||
| So when that didn't work, they just made up stuff. | ||
| And it turns out, I found out after the fact, I was under criminal investigation for four months. | ||
| I was never interviewed. | ||
| I didn't even know what it was about. | ||
| But then I found out afterwards when they, you know, tried to use that to revoke my clearance. | ||
| Now, mind you, you know, I have a good attorney, the former inspector general. | ||
| And, you know, we litigated that. | ||
| We rebutted that. | ||
| And, you know, everything was, I was cleared of any wrongdoing. | ||
| I maintained my clearance. | ||
| You know, I resigned from NGA with my clearance eligibility intact. | ||
| But I even FOIA'd that agency who put me under criminal investigation. | ||
| And I got a denial of my whole file citing something called like a B7-alpha FOIA exemption, which means it could compromise a law enforcement investigation. | ||
| But they wouldn't even give me anything, not even redacted papers. | ||
| They just gave me a denial letter. | ||
| And I'm like, okay, so you said I did something bad, which wasn't even true. | ||
| You never interviewed me, and you were trying to use that information to fire me. | ||
| That's crazy. | ||
| And luckily, you know, there is an open investigation to look at this kind of wrongdoing, and that's one of the reasons I went public. | ||
| I'm a patriot. | ||
| I shouldn't be treated like this. | ||
| Of course not. | ||
| If there was a sensitive program I uncovered, come to the table with me. | ||
| Tell me, knock it off, Dave. | ||
| Sign this piece of paper. | ||
| But where's everybody else? | ||
| And where's everyone else been for the last 90 years? | ||
| I know. | ||
| It's so outrageous that it suggests to me that the threats, the ones you alluded to... | ||
| Are real. | ||
| People are afraid of being hurt. | ||
| And luckily, people are coming out. | ||
| So remember the DIA OSSAT program I mentioned earlier. | ||
| So a man named Dr. James Lakatsky ran it. | ||
| He's a PhD-level former DIA officer, now retired. | ||
| So he wrote two books. | ||
| One is called Skinwalkers at the Pentagon. | ||
| And on page 152 to 153, if anybody's watching and happens to have the book, you'll note that they talked about sequestered technology and they were trying to get access to it. | ||
| Well, that's what I just told you earlier in this interview is Harry Reid was literally trying. | ||
| They get them access to that technology. | ||
| And people are like, oh, well, Harry was funding some paranormal program. | ||
| They were looking at Skinwalker Ranch. | ||
| It was some woo-woo thing. | ||
| I'm like, well, the real story is the $21 or $22 million appropriated was meant to set up material analysis equipment at a Bigelow Aerospace facility to look at the material that a clear defense contractor was supposed to transfer to them. | ||
| But when that ended, They ended up doing other stuff with that money because, well, they wanted to study this phenomenon in some way, shape, or form. | ||
| So they looked at some of the more paranormal aspects, if you will. | ||
| I've never been to Skinwalker Ranch in Utah, but allegedly things are going on out there. | ||
| And then they wrote these documents called Defense Intelligence Reference Documents in lieu of the core reason for that money. | ||
| So a lot of... | ||
| Naysayers in social media are like, oh, Harry Reid, he was just into the paranormal and he wanted to study, you know, Skinwalker rants and ghosts. | ||
| That's not entirely accurate. | ||
| There was a real reason for it. | ||
| No, but I'm just saying what they're doing is what it sounds like they did to you, which is try to discredit you by calling you a nut. | ||
| Yeah, and one week after the congressional hearing... | ||
| There was a hit piece on The Intercept. | ||
| Somebody verbally tipped off that reporter and he admitted it on an interview on The Hill. | ||
| And he foyered for some records that pointed towards some struggles I had several years ago where I checked myself in because I was feeling depressed at a hospital. | ||
| And I'm not ashamed of that. | ||
| A lot of veterans go through that. | ||
| But it was very interesting. | ||
| One week after the hearing, this hit piece comes out of The Intercept. | ||
| Killing the messenger, but not the message, you know, saying I'm crazy, I have mental problems, and it was totally crazy. | ||
| Why would an Intercept reporter do that? | ||
| You would think, because weren't they pro-whistleblower? | ||
| Didn't Glenn Greenwald create them to actually support whistleblowers? | ||
| And if some, you know, high-level bureaucrat comes to you to, you know, crush a subordinate, you... | ||
| Because he's revealing things that the public really has a right to know. | ||
| You think the reporters say, well, actually, I want to hear more about the program. | ||
| I'm like, what is this? | ||
| Do you have UFOs or don't you? | ||
| Yeah, it's like, why don't you actually look into it? | ||
| It's very lazy journalism, and there's very few investigative journalists, and I'm sure you know this, that even exist anymore. | ||
| I'm very aware of it. | ||
| And yes, I'm very aware of that. | ||
| But I just want to get back to the core of what's going on here. | ||
| It doesn't actually add up. | ||
| So the idea is that... | ||
| For 90 years, we've been collecting this stuff, monitoring it, studying it in order to improve military technology to give us an edge in the hole, as you said. | ||
| Yeah, there were certainly good breakthroughs that I'm aware of that did help certain black programs that are conventional in nature. | ||
| I believe it. | ||
| And I understand that. | ||
| Can you be more detailed in any of that? | ||
| No, I can't. | ||
| A lot of those programs are still classified. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Well, that's kind of the point I'm making. | ||
| A lot of these programs are so old that no person participated in them is still alive. | ||
| No, that was the issue. | ||
| I had to find some of the old-timers before they died because there's a brain drain. | ||
| There's a senior intelligence officer that's currently on the program that told us that they struggle hiring even the right technical people because of the obtuse security. | ||
| Imagine the best person in quantum gravity smokes marijuana. | ||
| Are they getting a TS clearance? | ||
| No. | ||
| So they can't even bring in the right people and... | ||
| Once again, like you just said, a lot of the breakthroughs have not matriculated into civil society for the most part. | ||
| And in an era of climate change and other things going on, you know, and we can debate the genesis thereof, but this is the time to bring it out because it's going to take 20, 30 years to commercialize anything anyways. | ||
| But it does suggest that there's something more going on here. | ||
| It suggests that the U.S. government... | ||
| They've kept the Kennedy assassination files, thousands of pages, classified for 60 years this month because the CIA, of course, was in contact with Oswald and had knowledge of the conspiracy to kill Kennedy. | ||
| I'm not speculating. | ||
| I talked to someone who read the documents. | ||
| So they have hidden those documents in order to protect themselves from public scrutiny of their own illegal, immoral behavior. | ||
| I'd kind of be surprised if something similar is not going on here. | ||
| Yeah, I mean, there's a famous quote. | ||
| There's a John Stossel interview where he interviews Mike Pompeo about two or three years ago where, interesting, he makes a weird, very odd in sequitur after he discusses the JFK files, ironically, and he says, if I get this quote correctly, I've seen the UFO file, we have bigger problems, is what the former CIA director says to John Stossel in a taped interview. | ||
| If you even go back, most people don't know this, there's a taped interview from Senator Barry Goldwater in the late 80s. | ||
| He was famously a two-star general in the Air Force Reserve, but of Goldwater-Nicholsack famed in the 80s. | ||
| And there's an interview of him, which you can YouTube if you like, that he phoned General Curtis LeMay many years ago and asked, hey, I heard there's a room where you keep... | ||
| All this UFO material, can I have access? | ||
| And General LeMay basically chewed out Senator Goldwater, who was, I think, Gang of Eight member at the time, and denied him access. | ||
| So there's something wrong when certain people like that try to dig into it. | ||
| But there's a reason that they're keeping it secret. | ||
| There may be other reasons. | ||
| I don't claim to be omnipotent and know... | ||
| All the issues. | ||
| And that's why I'm not here to disclose. | ||
| This should be the President of the United States and his cabinet because there may be issues that I'm not even aware of that may precipitate a certain form of acknowledgement or disclosure. | ||
| I do agree. | ||
| There is probably something darker and deeper and more disturbing. | ||
| And I did see inklings of that when I did interview so many people of high caliber. | ||
| So what is the truth about these claims of abduction? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| Nobody I interviewed had any first-hand knowledge on that phenomenon. | ||
| I certainly believe people have experienced stuff like that. | ||
| At least they believe it. | ||
| Because you look at Dr. John Mack, who's a Harvard-trained psychologist and psychiatrist, looked at the phenomenon of abduction in the 90s and early 2000s before his death. | ||
| And he affirmed that the people he... | ||
| Psychoanalyze. | ||
| Certainly experience something real to them. | ||
| But what is the abduction phenomenon? | ||
| I really don't know. | ||
| I'm not sure. | ||
| Is there any indication the U.S. government has studied this? | ||
| I would imagine that a part of the program that I uncovered probably would have analyzed that situation. | ||
| Because it is data. | ||
| Even if it's oral testimony data. | ||
| But I really don't know. | ||
| Anything about it. | ||
| Do you think, and I've read a couple, not just in this country, but others, former government officials saying they believe there's some spiritual connection to these things. | ||
| Well, I think, you know, if you were to back out to the 100,000-foot level, there certainly is a phenomenon, and how do we quantify that? | ||
| Well, theologically, we can quantify that as, you know, angels, demons, that kind of thing. | ||
| Many people with religious belief systems expose faith in that regard, and they believe that a phenomenon exists. | ||
| And really, what we're seeing here with the UFO-UAP subject is probably just another facet of that same phenomenon. | ||
| So I think this is not something that's going to destroy... | ||
| I mean, even the Vatican chief astronomer in 2009 or 2010 said the Vatican's okay with non-human intelligence. | ||
| It doesn't... | ||
| Hurt Catholic theology. | ||
| The Vatican maintains an observatory, I think. | ||
| They do, yes. | ||
| In the United States. | ||
| I believe it is in the Rome area, but I'm not an expert on the Vatican. | ||
| I may of course be mistaken. | ||
| I'm not either. | ||
| Do other countries have these materials? | ||
| Well, what I said in my initial interview with News Nation is that it ultimately became a Cold War arms race sub-Rosa under the noise floor. | ||
| And other countries do have their own programs. | ||
| And I can't get into those details because that's something I did not put through security review. | ||
| However, I will point out like the South China Morning Post in June 2021 put out an article saying, oh, yeah, we have a UAP task force, too, and we're using artificial intelligence to analyze UAPs. | ||
| But other than that public announcement, you know, our adversaries have kept their mouth shut on this issue for the most part. | ||
| You know, aircraft technology has not actually progressed very far. | ||
| No, we've plateaued. | ||
| In many, many, many years. | ||
| Bypass turbofan was designed, I think, by Heinkel in the late 30s. | ||
| Yeah, exactly. | ||
| And that's also my issue, right? | ||
| You know, I'm 36. I represent kind of the under-40 generation. | ||
| Where's our asymptotal leap? | ||
| Where's the next propulsion? | ||
| And we're stuck, you know, if people care about, you know, carbon neutrality and green energy, well, if we have something that's only being studied for military purposes that may, you know, unlock the next level of either energy, propulsion, whatever, I don't know. | ||
| We should be openly studying at this point because look what's happening to the planet. | ||
| Okay, so that suggests what? | ||
| That military contractors are incompetent, that it's so compartmentalized it can't... | ||
| But our military aircraft haven't progressed to some crazy level either. | ||
| Obviously, at least based on what the public knows. | ||
| However, we've had multi-star generals that we talked to as well, both current and former, that said that this program is just... | ||
| The Wild Wild West in some sense, where there's all these silos of activity. | ||
| There's no monolithic director of all these activities. | ||
| And it just became this uncontrolled, unmanaged black abyss of looking into this. | ||
| And it's so disjointed that people aren't even talking to each other. | ||
| And it's very similar to the special access programs I saw. | ||
| So this is really not that shocking to me. | ||
| I mean, there were times where... | ||
| I was working on a certain intelligence community program that's compartmented, and I see what they're doing. | ||
| I'm like, you do know the DOD already has that, right? | ||
| And then I would have to get them cross-briefed. | ||
| And this is just a symptom of that same ecosystem. | ||
| Yeah, we've seen this for a long time. | ||
| It's just too big. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Well, the Department of Defense, I saw their audit came out yesterday, and they couldn't account for 50% of their assets. | ||
| Try that on your tax return. | ||
| Well, their financial management system has been on the GAO's watch list since 1995. And I think I read in the article on the Hill, they spend $5 billion a year on financial management software. | ||
| Okay, well, so when I hear like, well, the SecDef doesn't know anything about a program. | ||
| Well, you can't even account for $3.8 trillion of your own assets. | ||
| So how do you know what the department actually has without... | ||
| Ordering an investigation. | ||
| No, that's exactly right. | ||
| At what point will this become public? | ||
| So I'm glad you asked that. | ||
| So I mentioned the Schumer Amendments, the UAP Disclosure Act of 23. It's currently in conference. | ||
| It's part of the Fiscal Year 24 National Defense Authorization Act, which is what funds the DOD and IC. But right now it's in a perilous position because, as I'm told by staffers on the Hill, the House Armed Services and Intelligence Committees, Mike Rogers and Mike Turner. | ||
| They believe it's duplicative. | ||
| It's not going to assist Arrow in any way. | ||
| However, having... | ||
| Mike Rogers and Mike Turner. | ||
| The Mikes. | ||
| And the thing is, is this provides... | ||
| Two of the dumbest people in Washington. | ||
| Pure tools of the national security system. | ||
| It helps them give top cover. | ||
| It helps them declassify things. | ||
| And Mike Turner, you know who his biggest donors are. | ||
| And he represents the Wright-Patterson Air Force Base district, and his biggest donors are Lockheed, Raytheon, and Boeing. | ||
| Shameful career. | ||
| Well, and it's very interesting because his committee, the House Intel Committee, is precisely the committee I gave multiple hours of classified testimony to last year. | ||
| But Mike Turner seems to just go on Fox Business after the congressional hearing and say, and he doesn't use my name, but he says the whistleblower doesn't know what he's talking about, nothing to see here. | ||
| I'm like, really, Mike Turner? | ||
| The mayor of Dayton for many years. | ||
| Were you ever in the intelligence community? | ||
| Were you ever a military officer? | ||
| Have you ever handled special access program material for 14 years? | ||
| Oh, I have. | ||
| And why didn't you call me into your office if you thought my testimony was incomplete? | ||
| I mean, the guy shouldn't even be reelected. | ||
| No. | ||
| And did you know? | ||
| That Mike Turner is trying to hurt Tim Burchette's reelection in Tennessee. | ||
| He's trying to fund an opposing candidate because Tim Burchette is one of the leading Republican UAP proponents in the House. | ||
| He's taken it upon himself not only to try to block the Schumer amendments, ruin Representative Burchette's reelection chances because he's speaking out too much about this issue, and he is basically defaming me and discrediting me on national TV when I'm sorry, Representative Turner, you have no idea what you're talking about. | ||
| But he probably does, he's just lying. | ||
| Or he does. | ||
| Of course, he's carrying water for people who don't want the public to know what they're doing. | ||
| And Lockheed has his ear. | ||
| So, I'm a private citizen, I can be critical of my elected officials, and I encourage their constituents, both Mike Rogers and Mike Turner, to call their offices and say, we do not want this bill to be blocked, because if this bill gets signed into law... | ||
| President Biden signs this. | ||
| And oh, by the way, the White House is okay with this amendment. | ||
| You don't think Chuck Schumer called the president or national security advisor before proposing this legislation? | ||
| Of course he did. | ||
| And this allows basically a six-year process because it forms a panel of experts, a nine-person panel. | ||
| There's an economist. | ||
| A scientist, a lawyer. | ||
| I mean, it's what you would expect. | ||
| And this was modeled off the JFK Records Act of 92. The one they keep ignoring. | ||
| The one they keep ignoring. | ||
| But we added some teeth to it to try to, you know, get this all the way through. | ||
| And this sets up a presidential panel and associated agency to assist ARO and other parts of the executive branch to come up with a literal disclosure plan. | ||
| And I encourage people to read the amendment. | ||
| It is... | ||
| Obvious if you read it, we're talking about non-human technology, non-human biologics, and we're talking about disclosure of these facts in an honest way by the chief executive if this passes. | ||
| So if this doesn't pass, I mean, this is probably the most important law in U.S. history, let's be real. | ||
| And if this doesn't pass, if it's successfully blocked by the House, I mean, it's a total... | ||
| Disgusting. | ||
| Well, it's also, I mean, we're bumping up against criminal behavior at some point, so it's like, why wouldn't people just do what generations of whistleblowers have done and just leak the material to the public? | ||
| I never wanted to be like that. | ||
| I always follow the rules. | ||
| I color in the lines. | ||
| Anything I talk about publicly that's sensitive, I literally make sure I can say that from a security perspective. | ||
| Because think about it. | ||
| There are foreign intelligence services watching this interview right now. | ||
| I am not here to hurt national security. | ||
| However, I am here as a fact witness because we have an oversight issue and I want things to change. | ||
| My generation wants things to change. | ||
| And for all the reasons I've enumerated earlier. | ||
| And they're self-evident. | ||
| I think they're self-evident. | ||
| So this is a question about a topic that cannot be classified because it is illegal. | ||
| But do you have any reason to believe that the U.S. government has hurt or killed anybody? | ||
| Connected to these programs. | ||
| American citizens. | ||
| There were concerns, like I stated during the hearing, of people that have espoused that to me. | ||
| And of course, I brought some of those officers to the Inspector General, the Intelligence Committee Inspector General, because I'm like, this is serious. | ||
| And I'm like, here's the law enforcement people you want to talk to, because I'm hands-off. | ||
| If that's true, you need to look into it. | ||
| The allegation was murder. | ||
| Yes, and then physical harm. | ||
| And I will say, well, I won't get into the specifics because it's part of my open investigation, you know, besides the administrative stuff. | ||
| And I don't know. | ||
| It's an unknown entity to me. | ||
| I do not know who did this. | ||
| But their displeasure in me was made known in my personal life. | ||
| And, you know, it affected my wife and I. And I had to report that to a certain counterintelligence element and a certain law enforcement element because... | ||
| Right before I filed my whistleblower complaint, you know, I felt that my life was in jeopardy. | ||
| And that's what I was alluding to during the hearing. | ||
| Because, you know, we'll just say when you come home and you see something, you know you've made somebody unhappy. | ||
| And to this day, I don't know who it was. | ||
| I don't think it was a foreign entity. | ||
| But there is some element that I extremely angered. | ||
| And I don't say that flippantly. | ||
| I say that very seriously. | ||
| I thought my life was in danger. | ||
| You can't get into details because it's part of the investigation. | ||
| It's part of the investigation. | ||
| At some point, I'm happy to talk about it publicly. | ||
| And also, as they say in the intelligence business, you don't acknowledge your tail. | ||
| So I don't want to acknowledge some other things I've noticed that maybe weren't supposed to be known. | ||
| But it sounds like you believe you've been surveilled and threatened. | ||
| Oh, 100%. | ||
| It was obvious to me. | ||
| And, you know... | ||
| I mean, it was blatant, we'll just say, what I observed. | ||
| And it was so concerning, I ended up reporting it to the authorities. | ||
| And I asked my agency for certain protective measures. | ||
| I can't get into that detail. | ||
| But I was certainly petrified. | ||
| And at the same time that those things were happening to me personally, they were happening at the same time to a certain other public figure that is known to... | ||
| The world, we'll just say. | ||
| And another former intelligence officer near my home as well. | ||
| And it was some kind of planned multi-person intimidation activity that was very disturbing. | ||
| And I'll just leave it at that. | ||
| So I'm not doing this for fun. | ||
| I'm serious. | ||
| I'm doing this interview because this is protective for me. | ||
| I don't want to be anonymous. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Of course. | |
| So I'm not here for attention. | ||
| This is a nightmare to even be public. | ||
| I'm used to working in a vault and briefing generals. | ||
| This is not me. | ||
| I'm not a public communicator, although I'm trying. | ||
| And that's why I'm doing it. | ||
| You're a very good communicator. | ||
| I appreciate it. | ||
| But this is a serious subject with serious consequences, and I suffered a lot of serious consequences. | ||
| So as you know, you've totally convinced me of your sincerity, there was a lot of... | ||
| Whispering about your motives. | ||
| This is an op. | ||
| Why now? | ||
| Why are we learning all this now? | ||
| People think that I'm a part of some CIA psyop or something like that. | ||
| First of all, I've never signed any kind of paperwork to be a part of an operation in that regard. | ||
| Unfortunately, there isn't a plan. | ||
| I'm not a part of a plan. | ||
| I ended up becoming a leader of a faction of former government officials and current government officials that would like change in a legal way. | ||
| And, you know, I encourage if there are people watching that have participated in those programs, there are multiple legal avenues, such as going to the Aero office, going through the ICIG like I did, Intelligence Community Inspector General, or another cognizant Inspector General to legally provide this information. | ||
| And there are also illegal but morally defensible avenues, like coming on this show, and I'd be delighted to host anyone who wants to tell the truth about what he's seen. | ||
| And there's no justification for hiding this. | ||
| That's my evaluation, so I'd be happy to take that risk and have that person on. | ||
| But it sounds like, so given your own experience, when people say to you, U.S. government employees say to you, wow, someone was killed by the U.S. government for talking about this or planning to talk about it, it sounds like you would have to take those claims seriously. | ||
| I did, and I remember a very, very credible senior intelligence officer. | ||
| I didn't precisely make those allegations in front of senior officials on Capitol Hill. | ||
| I was in the room. | ||
| Elected officials? | ||
| Their staff, I'll just say. | ||
| I don't want to get into details. | ||
| That's crazy. | ||
| I mean, so it's like, at that point, if somebody says the U.S. government killed an American citizen without a trial because he was going to tell the truth about something, that's kind of when everything stops. | ||
| You can't have that in a free country. | ||
| I mean, I think people are just paralyzed in fear because that's a reality. | ||
| And I remember the certain... | ||
| Professional staff members being very upset in the room. | ||
| And I mean, they're rightly so, but we need to do something about that because that's not good. | ||
| And most of the people that even I interviewed, I'm like, do you want to go to the Inspector General with me? | ||
| And they're like, we'll back you up, but we don't want to name on any complaints because they were just living in fear. | ||
| So for my whole life, I never even thought UFOs were real until fairly recently. | ||
| Me either. | ||
| Four years ago, I... If you asked me four or five years ago if I thought UFOs are real, I would have laughed. | ||
| I completely agree. | ||
| But the conventional explanation for the U.S. government, among those who believed it was hiding these facts, the explanation for why, was the government doesn't want to show panic, doesn't want to admit weakness in the face of its adversaries, etc., etc. | ||
| Those explanations do not account for the behavior you're describing. | ||
| They're hiding something real that implicates them. | ||
| And if they're talking to these entities, whatever they are, and I believe on the basis of evidence that the U.S. government has made contact and has had continuous, or at least sporadic, but over a period of years contact, you don't need to nod or shake your head. | ||
| But that is my belief based on talking to people. | ||
| Like, what is that? | ||
| Yeah, if there's certainly... | ||
| You know, a relationship that was cultivated with non-human intelligences. | ||
| Hypothetically, I guess, you know, to play off of what you just said. | ||
| Good or bad, it's almost like we were afraid after 9-11. | ||
| Dirty bombs, terrorists. | ||
| Okay, well, that's nature. | ||
| That's life. | ||
| Yin and yang of the universe. | ||
| If there's malevolent non-human intelligences, okay, well, that's a fact of life. | ||
| Don't hide it. | ||
| Because... | ||
| What if the U.S. populace needs to be prepared for something? | ||
| Hypothetically. | ||
| And it's also not their right to hide it, because they don't own the government. | ||
| The public does, actually. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| And it's just... | ||
| I understand the reasons at first, but like you said, I think it's just the moral decay and the decay in leadership. | ||
| And once again, well, we don't want to admit we did all this stuff years ago. | ||
| But also, if the U.S. government has had contact with these entities, and again, it is my informed belief that the U.S. government has had contact... | ||
| What are they talking about? | ||
| What is that? | ||
| Hey, I would like to know too. | ||
| I mean, I grew up watching Star Trek, so I mean, I say that kind of, you know, whimsically, but like, well, great. | ||
| I mean, of my generation under 40, that's like, we're not shocked. | ||
| That's cool. | ||
| Like, a Gen Z-er who's 18 would want to study physics if they found out this stuff was real. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Like, this is how you boost STEM in this country, for goodness sakes. | ||
| I mean, this is like the most exciting, yes, a little scary, but Overall, it's exciting. | ||
| I mean, nothing's happened. | ||
| We're still living. | ||
| I'm able to talk about this, and nothing's happening to the world, if you will. | ||
| So I think it's exciting for young people, and I think it's the right time to do this. | ||
| Going back in history, there are all sorts of mysteries about history that we just can't explain even now. | ||
| But it sounds like it would not be surprising to learn that people 3,000 years ago Yeah, I mean, you look at the works of Jacques Vallée, a famous researcher. | ||
| His character was portrayed as the French character in Close Encounters of the Third Kind by Steven Spielberg. | ||
| That guy exists. | ||
| His name is Jacques Vallée. | ||
| And he has a PhD, and he's a smart scientist. | ||
| But looked at this, and there's a couple books, like Passport to Mongolia and some other stuff. | ||
| I'm probably butchering the name. | ||
| Where he looked into antiquity, this phenomenon, some people say, oh, it's probably adversarial technology, etc. | ||
| We've been seeing the same stuff since antiquity. | ||
| And this should also potentially enforce stories in theological texts, say the Bible or whatever, that people actually saw. | ||
| Ezekiel's wheels, as Tim Burchette has espoused publicly, maybe that actually happened. | ||
| Now, unfortunately, you're... | ||
| Bursting maybe a worldview or a bubble for some people, but it actually ultimately might enforce people's belief systems because stories in the religious texts weren't fable, allegory, or whatever. | ||
| They happened. | ||
| And I'm not saying all of them did, but there might be evidence if we were openly and honestly studying the subject in more detail. | ||
| Amazing. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Last question, small question, but... | |
| Clearly some connection between nuclear weapons, nuclear energy, and the sightings of these things. | ||
| I mean, they've been seen around U.S. military installations with nuclear. | ||
| So what is that? | ||
| Yeah, you wonder if the nuclear testing was almost like a beacon. | ||
| You know, anybody observing from far distance is like, whoa, the monkey has discovered 10 to the 6 tons of TNT energy extraction. | ||
| They're close. | ||
| Maybe they're only an order of magnitude away of energy extraction to develop technology that maybe they have, hypothetically. | ||
| And it might have been just like a lighthouse. | ||
| We turned it on, and now they became more interested. | ||
| And it might be also a symptom of what we call collection bias, where modern society, we were more calibrated to look for that kind of stuff, because there was like sci-fi movies in the 30s and 40s, and maybe people... | ||
| We're looking up more, maybe. | ||
| But certainly there is some kind of nuclear connection. | ||
| What does it mean? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| They're obviously performing some kind of reconnaissance and surveillance of us as it relates to not only our nuclear weapons and nuclear facilities. | ||
| If anybody wants to read a book called UFOs and Nukes by Robert Hastings, he spent 40 plus years looking at interviewing Air Force missileers, other credible witnesses, and a very famous incident in 1967. Bob Salas, right? | ||
| Shut down the base. | ||
| Shut down the nukes. | ||
| And we should take those observers seriously. | ||
| They're trained. | ||
| They have clearances. | ||
| They have their jobs on the line, lying in that regard. | ||
| And so there is a nuclear connection. | ||
| I encourage people to read that book. | ||
| But what does it mean? | ||
| I don't even know. | ||
| No idea. | ||
| Well, you're a brave man. | ||
| And I'll be honest, I didn't know what to think because there's a lot of whispering about you, but I think you're totally sincere. | ||
| Thank you, sir. | ||
| And I really appreciate your doing this. | ||
| Thanks. |
Export Selection