Tucker Carlson - Ep. 51 It’s becoming obvious that the US government has made contact with nonhuman beings. So why are they lying to us about it? We asked UFO whistleblower Dave Grusch.
Dave Grusch, a former U.S. intelligence officer, reveals the government’s alleged 90-year cover-up of nonhuman spacecraft and "biologics," citing double-digit crash retrievals—including a 1933 Italian recovery—and congressional access denials to figures like Harry Reid. He links secrecy to defense contractor favoritism (Lockheed, Boeing) and legal risks under the Atomic Energy Act, while detailing threats against whistleblowers. Grusch ties UFO activity to nuclear sites, suggesting energy extraction drew extraterrestrial interest, and warns suppression risks moral and legal collapse, urging transparency as a unifying issue. [Automatically generated summary]
Human beings have recorded seeing strange moving lights in the sky since, well, the beginning of known history.
The record goes back thousands of years.
What is that?
We don't know.
In the United States, people have been talking a lot about these strange lights, UFOs, since the Second World War, when military pilots recorded seeing things they called Foo Fighters out their cockpit windows.
They had no idea what they were.
For the last 80 years, it seems like there has been a continuous increase in the settings of these things, these UFOs or UAPs.
And there's a whole industry that has grown up around describing what they are or may be.
But it wasn't until very recently, within the last 18 months, that former government officials began stepping forward in public to say what they believe they are.
People with direct, first-hand knowledge of the government's interactions.
With these objects or vehicles or people or whatever they are.
One such person who has come forward recently is a longtime military intelligence officer, an Air Force major called Dave Grush.
He's made a number of very interesting claims in public, including at congressional hearings.
For example, here he is telling the Congress that, in fact, the U.S. government has retrieved bodies, or as he puts it, biologics.
unidentified
Do you believe that officials at the highest levels of our national security apparatus have unlawfully withheld information from Congress and subverted our oversight authority?
There are certain elected leaders that had more information that I'm not sure what they've shared with certain gang of eight members or et cetera, but certainly I would not be surprised.
unidentified
You say that the government is in possession of potentially non-human spacecraft.
Based on your experience and extensive conversations with experts, do you believe our government has made contact with intelligent extraterrestrials?
Yeah, I spent my entire life growing up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
Son of a very normal income, typical family.
Spent most of my youth playing basketball and tennis, and I ended up going to the University of Pittsburgh, where I went into Air Force ROTC. I had a full scholarship in physics at the time.
And yeah, born and bred in Pittsburgh.
And then once I graduated Pitt, I ended up commissioning in the Air Force as a second lieutenant and went on active duty.
And I ended up spending 14 years in the Air Force, both active duty and reserve.
And also I became a government civilian at the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency.
And I was lucky enough to be brought in at the GS-15 level, which is equivalent to like a full bird colonel civilian.
And then suddenly the rest of us encounter you in public saying that the U.S. government has very detailed knowledge of what these things are and has for a long time.
Yeah, I had no personal interest in the UFO subject, really.
You know, certainly I grew up and I saw stuff in the History Channel, that kind of thing.
But having studied physics, became an intel officer, I was very agnostic about the subject.
And I was in a position of extreme trust.
You know, I handled the presidential daily brief for my agency's director at the National Reconnaissance Office when I was an Air Force Reserve officer.
It was widely cleared to most black programs in the Department of Defense.
And, um, I figured kind of, uh, uh, that I would know if, if that kind of program exists, it was kind of a joke between, you know, myself and other colleagues over the years, like, ha ha, when are we going to get read into, you know, the UFO stuff?
And we thought that it was a total joke, but it wasn't until, um, you know, I saw the New York times article in 2017 and, and I, what was that article?
So that was a story about Lou Elizondo and other individuals that ran the AATIP program and the OSSAT program, so Advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems Applications Program.
I remember in a very senior official's office in McLean.
Briefing that senior official into about a couple hundred special access programs because at the time I was a trusted individual advising the Joint Chiefs on Certain black programs.
And I remember that individual who was a co-worker of, you know, Lou Elizondo mentioned, oh, there's this guy named Lou Elizondo over at the Pentagon.
He's running some UFO program.
We think he lost his mind.
He's giving the Undersecretary Defense for Intelligence a hard time.
And this was six months prior to that Leslie Clean.
Ralph Blumenthal article in December 2017. And I was like, I don't know who this Lou guy is.
He sounds crazy to me because I don't know about some UFO program.
But little did I know, about six or seven months after that, I saw that on the news.
And that's what caught my attention because I'm like, I heard about this guy.
Didn't realize that program was for real.
And it turns out it was.
Uh, I spent a year kind of just doing like an open source lit review.
And then in early 2019, just by happenstance, uh, my boss forwarded me an email from the UAP task force director asking, Hey, we need a rep from the NRO to help the task force.
Do you got anybody?
And you know, my, my boss knew I was reservist and I was looking for something to do to put on my performance report.
Um, and, and I, of course I said, yes.
So, cause I figured.
I'd figure out if it was something prosaic, like natural phenomenon.
If it's a blue US program that people are seeing that people think is a UFO, but it's not.
Or it's maybe some adversarial program that maybe our intelligence community missed in their intelligence collection analysis.
I started to uncover, you know, some very disturbing facts.
I had people come to me.
I had access to the classified archives from those previous UFO programs that Lou Elizondo and others ran years prior.
And, you know, I read some extremely interesting foreign intelligence that was derived by, you know, clandestine human sources overseas, And noting about the U.S., they're like, yeah, the U.S. has a retrieval program, reverse engineering program.
And I had a chain of custody on how we got that information.
And I thought maybe, oh, this is passage material.
We've got to be very careful.
Which passage material would be like a form of disinformation to try to trick a case officer to develop a relationship with said asset.
So I was like, well, wait a minute.
Is this true?
A certain adversary of ours thinks apparently this is true.
And, you know, one thing led to another.
And, you know, I did talk to extremely, extremely senior officials, both former directors of certain agencies.
I had the privilege of having a relationship with them, and I talked to them about this issue, and they confirmed those details.
And what was really interesting in the previous...
UFO programs records, so the OSAP program, which ran roughly 2008 to 2010 or so, and that was in the Defense Intelligence Agency.
And this has been released by FOIA. You can actually go to DIA's website and read this, but the paperwork included this very odd request from Senator Harry Reid.
He sent a letter to the Deputy Secretary of Defense asking for something called a Provisional Special Access Program or PSAP. I've never seen in my career a member of Congress ask the Department of Defense to develop a very classified program.
Usually it's the reverse, right?
Congress wants more transparency and classification.
I'm like, this is very odd.
I don't know what's going on here.
Why is Harry Reid saying that the OSAP program found something they needed to develop this provisional special access program that is waived and bigoted, which is the most serious of SAPs.
Waived means it's limited congressionally reported.
It's 10 U.S. Code Section 119. And bigoted means it's like by name.
And there was a list of individuals that needed to be briefed.
Of course, Senator Reid, Inouye, and a couple members of Gang of Eight wanted to be on it.
And so I asked people that both worked on that program, but also people that were tangential to it that worked in certain intelligence agencies.
So what was this about?
Well, you know, a certain clear defense contractor wanted to transfer some of their material holdings.
To DIA for our program.
It was all crash retrieval material.
And this was a way to horizontally protect, as we call it, that information and that physical material from a certain other government program and custodian that lent that contractor material in the past.
And I was like, wait, are you saying we have UFO material?
That's crazy.
Are you sure it's UFO material?
This isn't like we went and got a wreckage of a Russian bomber and it just happened to be weird or something like that.
Well, they certainly, I guess they're a little bit jaded and the reality to them is not shocking.
But I was so intrigued by this.
Not only did I interview...
Ten people that were in the meetings that, you know, talked to the clear defense contractor, were involved in trying to persuade the government customer to release custodianship to give it ultimately to DIA and Bigelow Aerospace.
I actually flew to Las Vegas and I actually met with Senator Harry Reid himself after he retired.
That is in public law, 10 U.S. Code Section 119, and that is Congressional Oversight of Saps is the title of that part of public law.
But the department, which I find, you know, in retrospect...
Very weird where the legislators authorize and appropriate for these programs, but they're not afforded full access.
And occasionally Gang of Eight will get those kind of briefings, but literally they could withhold, besides notifying a program that stood up, the entire Congress that we're doing some kind of clandestine activity.
So the executive was initially involved in the secrecy on the UAP topic.
They transposed the Manhattan Project secrecy construct onto this.
Eventually, and then they formed, you know, the Atomic Energy Act, what was the McMahon Act of 46, the Atomic Energy Act of 54, and they purposely diluted the definition of, like, special nuclear material.
If you actually read Section 51 of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, it says, you know, Besides normal nuclear material, we can also protect stuff that is similar, and it's a very broad definition, and that's basically the justification of the secrecy on this topic,
is the material that we recover sometimes does have radioactive properties, and so they legally and gymnastically twisted the public law to justify the secrecy.
But, you know, he was so concerned about our conversation, which was unclassified because I was in his living room.
But he was going to go talk to the president because he understood that even himself as a Gang of Eight member.
And the majority leader, for goodness sakes, was denied access.
And going back to your earlier question about presidents, you know, many administrations ago a lot of the presidents were in the know, right?
However, it's vacillated over the years where certain chief executives aren't necessarily briefed all aspects of the program.
So you have, you know, commander-in-chief is also our chief diplomat, and they do need to know if there is a foreign entity, adversary, friend, whatever, out there so they can form foreign policy for the country.
But when you are not telling, it's like classifying the existence of Russia.
It's a symptom of the overclassification of this whole secret national security state that was formed in 1947. And they're basically classifying basic physics, basic astrobiology, that kind of stuff.
I'll start with the most obvious question, which is you said the secrecy surrounding these programs derived from the secrecy surrounding the Manhattan Project.
So I picked that event specifically because it was not U.S.-centric.
And I wanted to expose that this is a worldwide problem, not just a U.S.-centric problem.
So that was a, you know, recovery of an artifact by the Axis powers, Italy and Germany and Magenta, Italy in 1933. Much of that information, ironically, was in the public vernacular starting in the early 2000s.
There were certain researchers in Italy that uncovered these documents that Mussolini sent to the Gestapo or the Italian equivalent of the Gestapo.
Otherwise, however, that was one specific recovery that was briefed to me by a senior intelligence officer.
And the intelligence officer that briefed me and, we'll just say, senior officials on Capitol Hill during a certain private session described how the edges of this, it was like a lenticular disc-looking thing, but the edges broke off when it hit the earth.
So it looked like an acorn or like a bell shape.
When they recovered it, it was just an artifact.
They didn't find anything with it.
And, you know, the Italians kept custody of that towards the end of the war.
And then, you know, the Americans came in and recovered it.
And we knew about it because it turns out the Vatican through Pope Pius XII and the OSS, they sent a communique back to FDR saying, hey, we got something kind of weird that, you know, crashed in Italy.
And, you know, so this...
This history is longer than most people think.
It is not those seminal events that, you know, you may have mentioned to me, but it actually goes back much farther.
And I wanted to use 1933 as an example, not only to garner international interest, but to, you know, explain it.
This is, you know, a longer activity than most people think.
Well, it was one of those things, it's like a Pandora's box, right?
If you could analyze it and garner some kind of information from it, from like a reverse engineering perspective, it may give you like an ace-in-the-hole asymmetric advantage over your adversary.
And, well, we want to figure this out.
We don't know if Russia's ever found any of this stuff, you know, at the time.
And...
And of course, they didn't know the origin of it.
They just wanted to make sure it wasn't one of our adversaries.
So they spent years looking at it and developing an intelligence infrastructure to figure out what was going on.
Well, that's the thing is you don't really know the origin.
You know, people, even certain directors of government agencies we talked to about this issue, and they were well aware of this program, you know, they like to use the term extraterrestrial.
I'm a little skeptical about that.
That's why, you know, I like to use the term NHI, and that also is non-human intelligence.
And that is also a term that Chuck Schumer, in the Schumer Amendment, you know, so Chuck Schumer, Senator Gillibrand, Rubio, Rounds, and Young proposed an act called the UAP Disclosure Act of 2023. It's an amendment within the fiscal year 24 National Defense Authorization Act, 67 pages.
Publicly available.
It is currently in conference right now.
And they use the term non-human intelligence, biologics.
So I'm not the only one using those terms.
That is, the majority leader, Chuck Schumer, who, by the way, was friends with Harry Reid, and other notable senators are also pushing for transparency in this matter.
I think it's a multi-domain issue, and there are a bunch of potential origins that are based either in physics theory or biological theory, and I'm open to all possibilities.
However, I have not seen all the data, and I don't always trust everything certain interview subjects espouse, because I might have an intellectual or data analytical kind of difference in an opinion.
But I do encourage the president, and through this act, make all data as it relates to origin transparent to the American people.
Well, that's the problem is it's actually hindering national security by keeping it so tight because you don't have broad industrial base and broad academic study.
So just like nuclear physics, you can go and get a PhD in it.
You can read about it.
You can study it.
How you build nuclear weapons, that's classified and that's fine.
I just want this subject to basically be horizontally protected like nuclear secrets, like true nuclear secrets, where the broad study of which should be open to the public.
And anything that is really dangerous to release because of weaponization or something, keep that classified.
But 95% should be open to study throughout the world.
But it also suggests that there's more going on here.
I mean, in your own life or my life, the life of any person, the things that you hide, the things you try to keep secret the most assiduously are the things you're most embarrassed about.
So there was a recent administration that had an informal off-site meeting, and I talked to multiple individuals that were in this in-person meeting.
With, I'll just say, National Security Council staff of this former administration.
And one of the biggest issues that they raised was white-collar crime, illegal contracting.
So there's something called the Federal Acquisition Regulation, the FAR. And if you only give a couple contractors full access for decades of this stuff, and you don't let other contractors compete for work, for money.
You're giving certain companies an unfair competitive advantage that violates literal U.S. law.
So it's, you know, we're not going to release anything because then we have to deal.
And I remember these individuals telling me they were worried that contractors would sue the U.S. government and it would be litigated to the Supreme Court.
Well, we're out of billions of dollars because you sole-sourced it to these couple companies.
I mean, what else is going to unite the left, the right?
And potentially our adversaries.
I mean, you saw the hearing that you played the clip.
I had AOC and Matt Gaetz agreeing on something in the same room and not arguing.
It was crazy.
So this topic, I think, is maybe we're at a point in our society, especially the decay we've seen over the last 30 years and the divisiveness, whether you're on the left or on the right.
This is the one topic that I think can basically be a reset button.
So that kind of raises an interesting, you know, having spent my life in Washington, you know, you hear this stuff, you don't really know if it's true, you know, about unauthorized and dark things going on in the United States to people who tell its secrets.
But it does raise the question, like, why you?
It's been going on for, well, you said, I guess, 90 years at least.
You're suggesting longer, actually.
But certainly most of a century, and no one's really come forward.
My motive really is just, you know, Air Force core values, you know, service before self, integrity first.
And I just did not want to, you know, look back 30 years from now and be like, I should have done something when this topic was, you know, acceptable in Congress.
We had all this momentum.
I just did not want to live out my life keeping this secret like these other gentlemen and ladies that came to me and my group.
On the UAP Task Force, because they wanted a change.
You know, some of them were in tears, because they were threatened over the years.
I lost a lot of sleep on this, but when I started getting attacked on the inside and the reprisal started happening for three years, I knew I was over the target, so to speak.
You take fire when you're over the target, as we say in the Air Force.
And it just got so crazy.
I had three agencies investigate me at the same time.
Don't want to say, because there's an ongoing reprisal investigation on my behalf by the Inspector General to look in into all this that's going on.
So I don't want to compromise that investigation by saying too many details.
But I was investigated by three agencies at once.
They tried to dig up anything they could find on me.
They tried to use...
Mental health issues I reported in my past.
I've been in Afghanistan.
I got PTSD. I have a VA disability rating because of that.
I had a friend that blew up.
I had a friend that had killed himself.
And, you know, that impacted me when I was a younger guy in my 20s.
But I got help.
No problem.
I maintained my clearance.
But they dug up stuff from almost a decade ago saying, oh, he has, you know, ongoing issues, that kind of thing.
Certainly was not the case.
I was taking care of myself.
You know, I have high functioning autism and, you know, and I had to learn how to manage my emotions and got help maintain my clearance.
So when that didn't work, they just made up stuff.
And it turns out, I found out after the fact, I was under criminal investigation for four months.
I was never interviewed.
I didn't even know what it was about.
But then I found out afterwards when they, you know, tried to use that to revoke my clearance.
Now, mind you, you know, I have a good attorney, the former inspector general.
And, you know, we litigated that.
We rebutted that.
And, you know, everything was, I was cleared of any wrongdoing.
I maintained my clearance.
You know, I resigned from NGA with my clearance eligibility intact.
But I even FOIA'd that agency who put me under criminal investigation.
And I got a denial of my whole file citing something called like a B7-alpha FOIA exemption, which means it could compromise a law enforcement investigation.
But they wouldn't even give me anything, not even redacted papers.
They just gave me a denial letter.
And I'm like, okay, so you said I did something bad, which wasn't even true.
You never interviewed me, and you were trying to use that information to fire me.
So remember the DIA OSSAT program I mentioned earlier.
So a man named Dr. James Lakatsky ran it.
He's a PhD-level former DIA officer, now retired.
So he wrote two books.
One is called Skinwalkers at the Pentagon.
And on page 152 to 153, if anybody's watching and happens to have the book, you'll note that they talked about sequestered technology and they were trying to get access to it.
Well, that's what I just told you earlier in this interview is Harry Reid was literally trying.
They get them access to that technology.
And people are like, oh, well, Harry was funding some paranormal program.
They were looking at Skinwalker Ranch.
It was some woo-woo thing.
I'm like, well, the real story is the $21 or $22 million appropriated was meant to set up material analysis equipment at a Bigelow Aerospace facility to look at the material that a clear defense contractor was supposed to transfer to them.
But when that ended, They ended up doing other stuff with that money because, well, they wanted to study this phenomenon in some way, shape, or form.
So they looked at some of the more paranormal aspects, if you will.
I've never been to Skinwalker Ranch in Utah, but allegedly things are going on out there.
And then they wrote these documents called Defense Intelligence Reference Documents in lieu of the core reason for that money.
So a lot of...
Naysayers in social media are like, oh, Harry Reid, he was just into the paranormal and he wanted to study, you know, Skinwalker rants and ghosts.
Yeah, and one week after the congressional hearing...
There was a hit piece on The Intercept.
Somebody verbally tipped off that reporter and he admitted it on an interview on The Hill.
And he foyered for some records that pointed towards some struggles I had several years ago where I checked myself in because I was feeling depressed at a hospital.
And I'm not ashamed of that.
A lot of veterans go through that.
But it was very interesting.
One week after the hearing, this hit piece comes out of The Intercept.
Killing the messenger, but not the message, you know, saying I'm crazy, I have mental problems, and it was totally crazy.
But I just want to get back to the core of what's going on here.
It doesn't actually add up.
So the idea is that...
For 90 years, we've been collecting this stuff, monitoring it, studying it in order to improve military technology to give us an edge in the hole, as you said.
I had to find some of the old-timers before they died because there's a brain drain.
There's a senior intelligence officer that's currently on the program that told us that they struggle hiring even the right technical people because of the obtuse security.
Imagine the best person in quantum gravity smokes marijuana.
So they can't even bring in the right people and...
Once again, like you just said, a lot of the breakthroughs have not matriculated into civil society for the most part.
And in an era of climate change and other things going on, you know, and we can debate the genesis thereof, but this is the time to bring it out because it's going to take 20, 30 years to commercialize anything anyways.
But it does suggest that there's something more going on here.
It suggests that the U.S. government...
They've kept the Kennedy assassination files, thousands of pages, classified for 60 years this month because the CIA, of course, was in contact with Oswald and had knowledge of the conspiracy to kill Kennedy.
I'm not speculating.
I talked to someone who read the documents.
So they have hidden those documents in order to protect themselves from public scrutiny of their own illegal, immoral behavior.
I'd kind of be surprised if something similar is not going on here.
There's a John Stossel interview where he interviews Mike Pompeo about two or three years ago where, interesting, he makes a weird, very odd in sequitur after he discusses the JFK files, ironically, and he says, if I get this quote correctly, I've seen the UFO file, we have bigger problems, is what the former CIA director says to John Stossel in a taped interview.
If you even go back, most people don't know this, there's a taped interview from Senator Barry Goldwater in the late 80s.
He was famously a two-star general in the Air Force Reserve, but of Goldwater-Nicholsack famed in the 80s.
And there's an interview of him, which you can YouTube if you like, that he phoned General Curtis LeMay many years ago and asked, hey, I heard there's a room where you keep...
All this UFO material, can I have access?
And General LeMay basically chewed out Senator Goldwater, who was, I think, Gang of Eight member at the time, and denied him access.
So there's something wrong when certain people like that try to dig into it.
This should be the President of the United States and his cabinet because there may be issues that I'm not even aware of that may precipitate a certain form of acknowledgement or disclosure.
I do agree.
There is probably something darker and deeper and more disturbing.
And I did see inklings of that when I did interview so many people of high caliber.
Nobody I interviewed had any first-hand knowledge on that phenomenon.
I certainly believe people have experienced stuff like that.
At least they believe it.
Because you look at Dr. John Mack, who's a Harvard-trained psychologist and psychiatrist, looked at the phenomenon of abduction in the 90s and early 2000s before his death.
Do you think, and I've read a couple, not just in this country, but others, former government officials saying they believe there's some spiritual connection to these things.
And I can't get into those details because that's something I did not put through security review.
However, I will point out like the South China Morning Post in June 2021 put out an article saying, oh, yeah, we have a UAP task force, too, and we're using artificial intelligence to analyze UAPs.
But other than that public announcement, you know, our adversaries have kept their mouth shut on this issue for the most part.
You know, I'm 36. I represent kind of the under-40 generation.
Where's our asymptotal leap?
Where's the next propulsion?
And we're stuck, you know, if people care about, you know, carbon neutrality and green energy, well, if we have something that's only being studied for military purposes that may, you know, unlock the next level of either energy, propulsion, whatever, I don't know.
We should be openly studying at this point because look what's happening to the planet.
Well, their financial management system has been on the GAO's watch list since 1995. And I think I read in the article on the Hill, they spend $5 billion a year on financial management software.
Okay, well, so when I hear like, well, the SecDef doesn't know anything about a program.
Well, you can't even account for $3.8 trillion of your own assets.
So how do you know what the department actually has without...
So I mentioned the Schumer Amendments, the UAP Disclosure Act of 23. It's currently in conference.
It's part of the Fiscal Year 24 National Defense Authorization Act, which is what funds the DOD and IC. But right now it's in a perilous position because, as I'm told by staffers on the Hill, the House Armed Services and Intelligence Committees, Mike Rogers and Mike Turner.
Well, and it's very interesting because his committee, the House Intel Committee, is precisely the committee I gave multiple hours of classified testimony to last year.
But Mike Turner seems to just go on Fox Business after the congressional hearing and say, and he doesn't use my name, but he says the whistleblower doesn't know what he's talking about, nothing to see here.
I'm like, really, Mike Turner?
The mayor of Dayton for many years.
Were you ever in the intelligence community?
Were you ever a military officer?
Have you ever handled special access program material for 14 years?
Oh, I have.
And why didn't you call me into your office if you thought my testimony was incomplete?
That Mike Turner is trying to hurt Tim Burchette's reelection in Tennessee.
He's trying to fund an opposing candidate because Tim Burchette is one of the leading Republican UAP proponents in the House.
He's taken it upon himself not only to try to block the Schumer amendments, ruin Representative Burchette's reelection chances because he's speaking out too much about this issue, and he is basically defaming me and discrediting me on national TV when I'm sorry, Representative Turner, you have no idea what you're talking about.
So, I'm a private citizen, I can be critical of my elected officials, and I encourage their constituents, both Mike Rogers and Mike Turner, to call their offices and say, we do not want this bill to be blocked, because if this bill gets signed into law...
President Biden signs this.
And oh, by the way, the White House is okay with this amendment.
You don't think Chuck Schumer called the president or national security advisor before proposing this legislation?
Of course he did.
And this allows basically a six-year process because it forms a panel of experts, a nine-person panel.
There's an economist.
A scientist, a lawyer.
I mean, it's what you would expect.
And this was modeled off the JFK Records Act of 92. The one they keep ignoring.
The one they keep ignoring.
But we added some teeth to it to try to, you know, get this all the way through.
And this sets up a presidential panel and associated agency to assist ARO and other parts of the executive branch to come up with a literal disclosure plan.
And I encourage people to read the amendment.
It is...
Obvious if you read it, we're talking about non-human technology, non-human biologics, and we're talking about disclosure of these facts in an honest way by the chief executive if this passes.
So if this doesn't pass, I mean, this is probably the most important law in U.S. history, let's be real.
And if this doesn't pass, if it's successfully blocked by the House, I mean, it's a total...
Well, it's also, I mean, we're bumping up against criminal behavior at some point, so it's like, why wouldn't people just do what generations of whistleblowers have done and just leak the material to the public?
There were concerns, like I stated during the hearing, of people that have espoused that to me.
And of course, I brought some of those officers to the Inspector General, the Intelligence Committee Inspector General, because I'm like, this is serious.
And I'm like, here's the law enforcement people you want to talk to, because I'm hands-off.
And I will say, well, I won't get into the specifics because it's part of my open investigation, you know, besides the administrative stuff.
And I don't know.
It's an unknown entity to me.
I do not know who did this.
But their displeasure in me was made known in my personal life.
And, you know, it affected my wife and I. And I had to report that to a certain counterintelligence element and a certain law enforcement element because...
Right before I filed my whistleblower complaint, you know, I felt that my life was in jeopardy.
And that's what I was alluding to during the hearing.
Because, you know, we'll just say when you come home and you see something, you know you've made somebody unhappy.
And to this day, I don't know who it was.
I don't think it was a foreign entity.
But there is some element that I extremely angered.
I mean, it was blatant, we'll just say, what I observed.
And it was so concerning, I ended up reporting it to the authorities.
And I asked my agency for certain protective measures.
I can't get into that detail.
But I was certainly petrified.
And at the same time that those things were happening to me personally, they were happening at the same time to a certain other public figure that is known to...
The world, we'll just say.
And another former intelligence officer near my home as well.
And it was some kind of planned multi-person intimidation activity that was very disturbing.
And I'll just leave it at that.
So I'm not doing this for fun.
I'm serious.
I'm doing this interview because this is protective for me.
People think that I'm a part of some CIA psyop or something like that.
First of all, I've never signed any kind of paperwork to be a part of an operation in that regard.
Unfortunately, there isn't a plan.
I'm not a part of a plan.
I ended up becoming a leader of a faction of former government officials and current government officials that would like change in a legal way.
And, you know, I encourage if there are people watching that have participated in those programs, there are multiple legal avenues, such as going to the Aero office, going through the ICIG like I did, Intelligence Community Inspector General, or another cognizant Inspector General to legally provide this information.
And there are also illegal but morally defensible avenues, like coming on this show, and I'd be delighted to host anyone who wants to tell the truth about what he's seen.
And there's no justification for hiding this.
That's my evaluation, so I'd be happy to take that risk and have that person on.
But it sounds like, so given your own experience, when people say to you, U.S. government employees say to you, wow, someone was killed by the U.S. government for talking about this or planning to talk about it, it sounds like you would have to take those claims seriously.
I mean, so it's like, at that point, if somebody says the U.S. government killed an American citizen without a trial because he was going to tell the truth about something, that's kind of when everything stops.
But the conventional explanation for the U.S. government, among those who believed it was hiding these facts, the explanation for why, was the government doesn't want to show panic, doesn't want to admit weakness in the face of its adversaries, etc., etc.
Those explanations do not account for the behavior you're describing.
They're hiding something real that implicates them.
And if they're talking to these entities, whatever they are, and I believe on the basis of evidence that the U.S. government has made contact and has had continuous, or at least sporadic, but over a period of years contact, you don't need to nod or shake your head.
Going back in history, there are all sorts of mysteries about history that we just can't explain even now.
But it sounds like it would not be surprising to learn that people 3,000 years ago Yeah, I mean, you look at the works of Jacques Vallée, a famous researcher.
His character was portrayed as the French character in Close Encounters of the Third Kind by Steven Spielberg.
That guy exists.
His name is Jacques Vallée.
And he has a PhD, and he's a smart scientist.
But looked at this, and there's a couple books, like Passport to Mongolia and some other stuff.
I'm probably butchering the name.
Where he looked into antiquity, this phenomenon, some people say, oh, it's probably adversarial technology, etc.
We've been seeing the same stuff since antiquity.
And this should also potentially enforce stories in theological texts, say the Bible or whatever, that people actually saw.
Ezekiel's wheels, as Tim Burchette has espoused publicly, maybe that actually happened.
Now, unfortunately, you're...
Bursting maybe a worldview or a bubble for some people, but it actually ultimately might enforce people's belief systems because stories in the religious texts weren't fable, allegory, or whatever.
They happened.
And I'm not saying all of them did, but there might be evidence if we were openly and honestly studying the subject in more detail.
Yeah, you wonder if the nuclear testing was almost like a beacon.
You know, anybody observing from far distance is like, whoa, the monkey has discovered 10 to the 6 tons of TNT energy extraction.
They're close.
Maybe they're only an order of magnitude away of energy extraction to develop technology that maybe they have, hypothetically.
And it might have been just like a lighthouse.
We turned it on, and now they became more interested.
And it might be also a symptom of what we call collection bias, where modern society, we were more calibrated to look for that kind of stuff, because there was like sci-fi movies in the 30s and 40s, and maybe people...
We're looking up more, maybe.
But certainly there is some kind of nuclear connection.
What does it mean?
I don't know.
They're obviously performing some kind of reconnaissance and surveillance of us as it relates to not only our nuclear weapons and nuclear facilities.
If anybody wants to read a book called UFOs and Nukes by Robert Hastings, he spent 40 plus years looking at interviewing Air Force missileers, other credible witnesses, and a very famous incident in 1967. Bob Salas, right?