Nov. 9, 2023 - The Tucker Carlson Show
26:44
| 
| Speaker | Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| If someone had told you even 10 years ago that you could be indicted by the federal government and go to prison for 10 years for making fun of Hillary Clinton on social media, you would not have believed it. | ||
| It's a free country. | ||
| We have free speech. | ||
| But it turns out not only is that possible, it is likely to become much more common because the actual war is over information. | ||
| One of its first casualties is a man called Doug Mackey. | ||
| Who, during the 2016 election, made fun of Hillary Clinton on Twitter. | ||
| And then a few years later, found himself the subject of a federal raid, an indictment, and then a conviction. | ||
| It's a shocking story. | ||
| It's hard to believe it's happening in this country, but it is. | ||
| And to prove it, Doug Mackey joins us now. | ||
| Doug, thanks so much for coming on. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Thank you, Tucker. | |
| So I've never even seen you in person before. | ||
| You have not, I don't think, spoken about this publicly, or at least very often. | ||
| Since it happened. | ||
| So give us just a quick background on who you are. | ||
| I read, I think, in BuzzFeed that you were a dangerous white nationalist militant. | ||
| Are you? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No, no, not at all. | |
| You don't see it. | ||
| Where are you from? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I grew up in Vermont. | |
| In Vermont? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes. | |
| Not a hotbed of white nationalist militancy. | ||
| And where did you go to college? | ||
| What were you doing during the 2016 election, etc.? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I graduated from Middlebury College, which is also in Vermont. | |
| Yep. | ||
|
unidentified
|
And then I moved to New York. | |
| I lived there about six years. | ||
| That's where I was at the time of the election, the 2016 election. | ||
| What were you doing? | ||
|
unidentified
|
So I had just left my job, but I was previously an economic researcher. | |
| Huh. | ||
| First, like a Wall Street firm or something like that? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Something like that. | |
| Corporate America. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| So what were you doing during the 2016 election? | ||
|
unidentified
|
So I was posting a lot of stuff on Twitter under a pseudonym. | |
| What kind of stuff? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Pro-Trump memes, jokes, all kinds of links, that kind of thing. | |
| Why were you doing that? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Just purely out of passion. | |
| So you liked Trump? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I liked Trump, that's right. | |
| Why? | ||
| I thought he was a breath of fresh air for the country. | ||
| I think that his analysis of the problems with the country, with the ruling class of the country, I liked what he was saying and I thought he had a positive vision for the country. | ||
| Where were you politically before the 2016 election? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I was sort of conservative. | |
| Previously, I was sort of libertarian. | ||
| But earlier in my life, I was sort of apolitical. | ||
| So you weren't a lifelong political activist? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No. | |
| But you got excited about Trump and you decided to support him on social media. | ||
| At the time, did you think that was your constitutional right? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes, absolutely. | |
| Why did you think that? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, I thought that this was America. | |
| I thought there was a First Amendment, due process rights, that we could criticize people in our ruling class. | ||
| It looks like you thought wrong. | ||
| So let's get specific about what you did, the crimes, the felonies that you committed on Twitter. | ||
| I want to put this up. | ||
| You posted this on Twitter. | ||
| This is a meme. | ||
| It says, save time, avoid the line, vote from home. | ||
| And it's got a picture of Hillary Clinton. | ||
| Text Hillary to this number. | ||
| Did you make this meme? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No, I didn't. | |
| Oh, you didn't create this? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No. | |
| Where'd it come from? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I found it on 4chan. | |
| Okay, so it was floating around the internet. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, these kind of memes were floating all over the place. | |
| And you posted it on Twitter. | ||
| What was the point of that? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, pardon my French, but it was called a shit post. | |
| We talked about this a lot at the trial. | ||
| I testified. | ||
| Just sort of a joke. | ||
| Rile up everybody. | ||
| Muddy the waters. | ||
| And mostly just because I thought my audience would find it funny. | ||
| Did they? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, absolutely. | |
| I find it hilarious. | ||
| You're obviously from Northern England. | ||
| You have a very dry sense of humor. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Very dry. | |
| Yeah, I noticed that. | ||
| I noticed that. | ||
| So did you get a sense when you posted that that that was a crime or that it would be perceived as a crime? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No, absolutely not. | |
| So we have to, and I want to play this, this is from Hillary Clinton, this is from this April, so long after you were indicted, long after you went on trial, and this is Hillary Clinton describing that meme. | ||
| There was just a trial in Brooklyn where a guy who had been one of the main I guess he was one of the main people running memes against me in 2016. He went from what you could consider free speech. | ||
| Both Nancy and I have pretty thick skins. | ||
| People say all kinds of things about us. | ||
| But he went from that to running a very deliberate effort to mislead people about where and how to vote. | ||
| So it went from speech to action. | ||
| Meant to subvert the election because thousands of people who they targeted through their algorithms, oh, I can text my vote for Hillary Clinton. | ||
| So Hillary Clinton, I want to deconstruct that in some greater detail in a minute, but Hillary Clinton apparently took that very seriously. | ||
| You were using, quote, algorithms to subvert the election with that meme. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I don't even really know what she means by that. | |
| I don't know. | ||
| I guess you post something and it gets taken up into algorithms. | ||
| I'm not exactly sure. | ||
| I was surprised that she said that. | ||
| Did you have personal algorithms that you used? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No. | |
| Okay. | ||
| No. | ||
| It's just copy, paste, and click a button. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So like everyone else on social media, you see something funny, you post it. | ||
|
unidentified
|
That's right. | |
| Okay. | ||
| Describe the rest of your career on Twitter. | ||
| So you're enthusiastic about Trump. | ||
| I assume, are you being paid to post these things? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No. | |
| Nobody's paying me. | ||
| You're just a random guy who's amusing the hell out of yourself by pushing your candidate on social media. | ||
|
unidentified
|
That's right. | |
| That's exactly right. | ||
| So then what happens? | ||
| How long were you on Twitter? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Until 2018. Mid-2018. | |
| Okay. | ||
| But this criminal tweet is from 2016. 16, November. | ||
| So at any point, did you think that you'd committed a crime or that others would think that you'd committed a crime? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No. | |
| When did you discover that you were considered a felon by the U.S. government? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, I had 8 to 10 law enforcement agents come and lock on my door at 7 a.m., seven days after Joe Biden was inaugurated. | |
| Did you have any warning that this was coming? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No. | |
| No warning. | ||
| So what were you doing at 7 in the morning? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I was sleeping. | |
| So you're asleep, you hear a knock, and then what happens? | ||
|
unidentified
|
And then the FBI, are you Doug Mackey? | |
| Yes. | ||
| What's going on? | ||
| I asked them, we have a warrant for your arrest. | ||
| I said, what for? | ||
| For what? | ||
| They didn't tell me until I got to the courthouse. | ||
| Did they cuff you? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes. | |
| The FBI threw handcuffs on you at your home at 7 in the morning and didn't tell you why. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes. | |
| Did you have any idea why? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No, I had no idea. | |
| What was going through your mind? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I knew that politicians could be vindictive and the federal government sometimes could be influenced by those politicians. | |
| And I know that they can sort of get very creative with federal statutes. | ||
| So if I was the enemy of their candidate, then I thought maybe... | ||
| They could cook something up. | ||
| But this was an entire election cycle later. | ||
|
unidentified
|
That was the weird part. | |
| But I knew that we had just had a transition of presidents. | ||
| So... | ||
| So seven days after Biden gets inaugurated, you get arrested for a tweet... | ||
|
unidentified
|
Four years earlier. | |
| Yeah. | ||
| What was your reaction? | ||
|
unidentified
|
You know, it's crazy. | |
| I actually, I was a little bit surprised, but I wouldn't put anything past, you know, what they can do. | ||
| I don't, I mean, I remember reading that and thinking, clearly I'm missing something. | ||
| You probably murdered somebody, you know, or put Strychnine in the water supply or something. | ||
| It can't really be that you just tweeted something the previous election cycle. | ||
| There were 10 FBI agents? | ||
|
unidentified
|
There were four FBI agents and then they had some local cops and that kind of thing. | |
| But ten law enforcement officers? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| Were you waving a gun and screaming, you'll never take me alive? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Not quite. | |
| So you're just like some random guy? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, yeah. | |
| It was shocked. | ||
| I had roommates at the time. | ||
| They were in disbelief. | ||
| They couldn't believe it. | ||
| They must have assumed you were like a drug kingpin or something. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, pretty much. | |
| They thought I had some kind of secret that I was hiding or something. | ||
| They were really shocked when they found out what it was. | ||
| Yeah, I was too. | ||
| And it turned out, by the way, fast forward to your trial, it turns out your crime was exactly what you said it was, posting a tweet. | ||
| So what happened then? | ||
|
unidentified
|
So they took me to the courthouse, and because it was COVID, there were some delays. | |
| I was in a holding cell. | ||
| They take off your handcuffs and put you in leg irons. | ||
| And then you just wait for your arraignment, go for the judge. | ||
| Even then, I still don't know why I'm being arrested. | ||
| They got a public defender on Zoom speaking for you. | ||
| Wait, you're in leg irons and you have no idea why you were arrested. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, exactly. | |
| And not until I got a copy of the criminal complaint that I know what was going on. | ||
| At what point was that? | ||
|
unidentified
|
After the arraignment, and they let you go. | |
| They take the leg irons off, and they put you on the streets of West Palm Beach. | ||
| They didn't bring you home? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No. | |
| How far is that from your house? | ||
|
unidentified
|
20 miles. | |
| But the worst part is they didn't... | ||
| I was going to bring my phone, my wallet, so I could call a friend or take a taxi home. | ||
| They said, oh, no, you don't need that. | ||
| You know, you don't need that. | ||
| That's just going to delay things for you. | ||
| You'll get out. | ||
| You know, it'll take longer for you to get out. | ||
| So don't bring that. | ||
| So my friends were waiting for me outside, and then they didn't know how long it was going to be, so they left. | ||
| So I get out of there, and fortunately, there was a really nice taxi driver that, well, one of the guys I was in a holding cell with, he helped me make it over to the train station where I could grab a taxi. | ||
| Your new prison friends were helping you. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Exactly, exactly. | |
| Yeah. | ||
| Did you join a gang? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No. | |
| I'm sorry to make light of it. | ||
| I just don't know. | ||
| I mean, in the old America, this would provoke an uprising. | ||
| You can't do that. | ||
| You're not allowed to arrest people for criticizing you. | ||
| But the reaction to your arrest was very different. | ||
| Describe it, if you would. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, I mean, there was a lot of support. | |
| But, you know, I was on Rachel Maddow that night. | ||
| I mean, they were—the left was really celebrating this. | ||
| They were celebrating. | ||
|
unidentified
|
They thought it was terrific. | |
| To arrest you for making fun of Hillary Clinton. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| I mean, you're from this country. | ||
| You grew up here. | ||
| Did that surprise you? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, I was pretty surprised. | |
| But I've got to tell you, the left has sort of done a 180 since 2016. So if they celebrated your imprisonment, why wouldn't they celebrate your execution? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Some of them would. | |
| Clearly. | ||
| I think so. | ||
| What kind of support did you get? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, I've got to thank you for you showcasing my arrest on your show. | |
| It might have been that night or the next night. | ||
| By the way, in the back of my mind, I thought we're probably going to find out that Doug Mackey works for Al-Qaeda. | ||
| I mean, there's a guy in the story. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| No, I mean, a lot of people felt that way. | ||
| Well, it would have to be. | ||
| They can't arrest you for making fun of Hillary Clinton. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Anybody who learns the details of my case says, that's it? | |
| You know, what's going on? | ||
| The people that actually learn the details of the case. | ||
| But there was a tremendous outpouring from the American people. | ||
| People that maybe are conservative, but not necessarily. | ||
| People that support free speech. | ||
| Yes. | ||
|
unidentified
|
People that don't support an abusive federal government. | |
| So... | ||
| Yeah, people opposed to fascism. | ||
| Speaking of Antifa opposes fascism, did they come to your aid? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No. | |
| Oh, they didn't? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No. | |
| I'm thinking they're not sincere. | ||
|
unidentified
|
What about the ACLU? They cheered on my arrest. | |
| The ACLU cheered on your arrest? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| On what grounds? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Because they said the—well, I don't think they care that much about the First Amendment. | |
| No, it's only the American Civil Liberties Union. | ||
|
unidentified
|
They were more interested in the idea that there was this effort to stop people from exercising their right to vote. | |
| So they chose to support it on that ground. | ||
| So let's get to that claim, because that's the heart of it. | ||
| So Hillary Clinton, whatever her fault, really has become a vicious person, a hater. | ||
| He sort of dismisses out of hand that you have a First Amendment right to make fun of her. | ||
| And she does that by saying that people say all kinds of things about us. | ||
| But his went from running a very deliberate effort to mislead people about where and how to vote, an effort to subvert the election, because thousands of people who they targeted through their algorithms thought Oh, I can text my vote for Hillary Clinton. | ||
| Now, just again to restate, you had no, quote, algorithms. | ||
|
unidentified
|
No. | |
| Hillary Clinton has no idea what an algorithm is, needless to say. | ||
| So you were a solo operator. | ||
| You're one guy on your laptop. | ||
| But the claim is that you somehow stole people's right to vote. | ||
| Is there any evidence that that's true? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No. | |
| The government said that they didn't have to show any evidence of that at trial. | ||
| They said that the fact that there was a conspiracy was enough. | ||
| They went around and interviewed people because they would have loved to put someone on the stand who didn't vote because they thought they could text their vote. | ||
| They couldn't find a single person. | ||
| They couldn't even find people that... | ||
| They went and looked up people that texted the meme, the number, supposedly, four years ago, and they couldn't even remember doing it, or they thought it was silly and they wanted to see what would happen. | ||
| They actually interviewed people? | ||
| How did they know who these people were? | ||
|
unidentified
|
They subpoenaed their phone numbers. | |
| Not really. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes. | |
| And their voting records. | ||
| What did this effort cost? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I have no idea. | |
| But millions of dollars. | ||
|
unidentified
|
It had to have cost that much. | |
| So the government couldn't find a single person whose vote was, as Hillary Clinton said, subverted by your tweet. | ||
|
unidentified
|
No, and they looked very hard. | |
| How was it a conspiracy? | ||
|
unidentified
|
So there were some group chats where people were creating these memes. | |
| Yes. | ||
|
unidentified
|
And I was a member of some of them. | |
| Some of them I wasn't even a member of. | ||
| And they said that because these people are in this group chat talking about creating memes, that you're a part of the conspiracy. | ||
| Even though I wasn't talking in these group chats, really participating in them at all, I wasn't paying any attention to them. | ||
| So your trial—and we still live in a country where trials are mostly public. | ||
| I'm sure that will change. | ||
| It'll be a pure military tribunal star chamber drumhead proceeding. | ||
| But at this point, like, your trial took place in public and we can get the transcript and all that. | ||
| So the media knew that there was no actual crime here. | ||
| Did anybody from the Associated Press or NBC News or The Washington Post, The New York Times— Re-examine this case or take a close look at the case and say, wait a second, the guy didn't do anything. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Not that I'm aware of. | |
| And these are crimes for which you could have spent 10 years in prison. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| It felt to me like the media were cheerleading your prosecution. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh yeah, definitely. | |
| Some of them. | ||
| By calling you a bigot. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Absolutely. | |
| Huh. | ||
| I don't think you are a bigot. | ||
| I assume. | ||
| But even if you were, you're allowed to have your own views, correct? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right, yeah. | |
| No, I'm not a bigot, but like I said, this is America. | ||
| Right. | ||
| So why did you get convicted? | ||
|
unidentified
|
So I got convicted. | |
| That's a great question. | ||
| They basically put 12 people in a courthouse in Brooklyn and say, It's up to you to decide whether this meme was satire or whether it was an effort to trick people out of voting. | ||
| So they get to decide. | ||
| Twelve people, they can drag you into a courthouse anywhere in the country because they say, since it's tweets, they go over wires so they can charge this crime wherever they please. | ||
| So if you post a joke on the internet, a prosecutor in... | ||
| Could be the most conservative district or the most liberal district in America. | ||
| Can drag you in and put you in front of 12 people who are going to decide whether you were joking. | ||
| They're going to decide what your intent was. | ||
| Did you think you were going to be acquitted? | ||
|
unidentified
|
To be honest with you, no. | |
| I thought maybe the jury would hang. | ||
| But I didn't think we would get 12 jurors voting for acquittal. | ||
| Do you have any idea why they voted to convict? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, I don't really have a lot of insight into that. | |
| But with this kind of a charge, they don't need direct evidence to convict you. | ||
| So really, unless I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, you were convicted on the basis of what they claimed your intent was. | ||
|
unidentified
|
That's exactly right. | |
| They could not find a single person who was harmed by this. | ||
| They could find no actual effect of this so-called subversion of our democracy. | ||
| You didn't actually subvert our democracy. | ||
| There's no evidence that you did. | ||
|
unidentified
|
No. | |
| But they claimed that you wanted to. | ||
|
unidentified
|
They claimed that I wanted to and that I agreed to enter into a conspiracy with other people. | |
| Were those people charged? | ||
|
unidentified
|
One of them was. | |
| He cooperated. | ||
| Cooperated? | ||
| In what way? | ||
|
unidentified
|
He testified at trial that we had a silent agreement. | |
| To subvert democracy? | ||
|
unidentified
|
That's right. | |
| Did you? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, I don't know how you can have a silent agreement with someone a thousand miles away over the internet. | |
| Had you ever met this person? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No. | |
| Never met him. | ||
| I didn't even, at the time, November 2016, I had never even spoken to him one-on-one. | ||
| Or I don't even think in a group chat. | ||
| What role did the Huffington Post play in this case? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, so I was posting pseudonymously. | |
| So they doxed me in 2018. So you were not using your real name, as many people don't, both on the Internet and in literature. | ||
| And a Huffington Post reporter decided to reveal your true identity. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes. | |
| Who was the reporter? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Luke O'Brien. | |
| Luke O'Brien. | ||
| How did he find out? | ||
| Who you were? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Just through some, basically, people that leaked my name to him, basically. | |
| Huh. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Disgruntled people, or whatever you want to call it. | |
| So because Luke O'Brien did this, you were arrested and faced 10 years in prison. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh yeah, absolutely. | |
| I mean, their criminal complaint basically was just using what Luke O'Brien did. | ||
| So it sounds like, in effect, Luke O'Brien, like so many journalists, is actually working for the national security state in order to imprison and destroy people who dissent. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Could be. | |
| Does it sound that way a little bit? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I have my suspicions, I guess. | |
| Boy, you are from Vermont! | ||
| I'm tempted to ask you, how do you get there from here? | ||
| You have a right to be anonymous on the internet, obviously. | ||
| Luke O'Brien is supposed to be like a reporter or something. | ||
| And he's spending his time trying to discover your identity because he doesn't like your politics. | ||
| What was the effect, other than the federal indictment, of being doxed by the Huffington Post? | ||
|
unidentified
|
It was very difficult, personally, for me. | |
| Very hard on my family, very hard on myself, and very hard on my friends. | ||
| So it was very difficult. | ||
| You know, I lost a lot at the time, but I think it was also... | ||
| Tell me what you lost. | ||
|
unidentified
|
So I lost... | |
| Basically just friends. | ||
| I had difficult relationships with family members. | ||
| And I just had to restart everything. | ||
| Because you were revealed to have said naughty things on the internet? | ||
|
unidentified
|
That's right. | |
| Yeah. | ||
| Does sound kind of Soviet, doesn't it? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| Yeah. | ||
| I think it does. | ||
| Huh. | ||
| Are you afraid to go to prison? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I don't think so. | |
| How many guys from your class at Middlebury have gone to prison? | ||
|
unidentified
|
None that I'm aware of. | |
| None that you're aware of, right. | ||
| I mean, so I guess kind of what I'm saying is you're not from a world where it was expected you would wind up facing a prison term. | ||
| No. | ||
| How has this changed your view of the United States? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, I just, I don't know if that we're a free country. | |
| I'm not sure. | ||
| I have my doubts, like I said. | ||
| So if you can be thrown in prison for making fun of Hillary Clinton, I mean, does set a precedent, does it not? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, absolutely. | |
| I mean, the scary thing is if they think that you're conspiring on the Internet, they can subpoena your entire life and dig through everything you've got. | ||
| So, I mean, it sets a very dangerous precedent, not only the fact that they can... | ||
| Pick you up and drag you to whatever federal district they want in the entire country because tweets go over wires. | ||
| You know, you made fun of Hillary Clinton in 2016 in a pretty lighthearted way, by the way. | ||
| It's obvious now that she's evil. | ||
| I mean, she would be delighted to see you go to prison, and that's evil, just say it out loud. | ||
| Did you know that about her when you mocked her in 2016? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I don't know. | |
| I saw what she... | ||
| I mean, any politician who roots for her critics to go to prison is by definition, like, that's Idi Amin territory. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, let me just put it this way. | |
| I saw her reaction to when Gaddafi was murdered, so... | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I think, if anything, we understated her darkness. | ||
| Did members of Congress come out in support of you? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Some have, actually, yes. | |
| In a meaningful way, in a way that helped you? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I mean, I'm very grateful for it. | |
| I don't know how much power they have. | ||
| I mean, they can maybe open investigations, that kind of thing. | ||
| But so far, there have been some that have been supportive. | ||
| Have any traditional liberals, other than Glenn Greenwald, come out in support of you? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Very few and far between. | |
| It's been very few and far between. | ||
| There are a couple more libertarian types and some liberals, some who even might say, like, oh, we don't like this. | ||
| We thought this was a bad thing, rather than just a shitpost or a joke. | ||
| But, you know, should we be charging these things with 10-year federal felonies? | ||
| Should we? | ||
| Like, it's an open question. | ||
| Should we really execute him? | ||
| So where does this leave you in life? | ||
|
unidentified
|
So, I mean, like I said, I'm just very grateful and very fortunate to have the support that I've gotten. | |
| Family, friends, and just regular people who have come to my support. | ||
| So that, you know, hopefully this will be an opportunity and not a, you know, like I said, hopefully this is an opportunity. | ||
| An opportunity for what? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, there's something redemptive about suffering, so we'll find out. | |
| Yes, I think that's right. | ||
| In the past several years since you were indicted, how much of your life has been spent dealing with this case? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, I've got great lawyers that have handled it, a lot of it for me, but definitely a lot of time, a lot of hours, a lot of preparation for trial. | |
| And I think just the stress of it is very difficult, you know. | ||
| But at the same time, I think that you learn to roll with the punches. | ||
| But does it ever, I mean, how much do you fight self-pity? | ||
|
unidentified
|
To be honest with you, I don't really, I don't like self-pity. | |
| Good. | ||
| Doug Mackey, good luck. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Thank you. | |
| We're definitely rooting for you, and I'm sorry on behalf of the country that you had to go through this. | ||
| It's just one of the worst things I've ever seen. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Thank you very much. | |
| Thank you very much. |
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