Special Episode: ONE NATION, ALL BELIEFS - A Student Organizer in Nashville Ready for Change
On this episode of ONE NATION, ALL BELIEFS (subscribe links below) Brad speaks with Indu Kumar, a student fellow with Americans United who is organizing on the ground in Tennessee. She discusses the ways that students, Black churches, and other minoritized groups are building coalitions to fight gun violence and create sustainable movements. Indu explains how separation of church and state is a key issue for young people who care about reproductive rights and LGBT inclusion. She also shares her unique perspective on the positive and negative roles religion can play in the public square.
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Welcome to Straight White American Jesus.
We are back here at the Summit for Religious Freedom in Washington, D.C.
at the Washington Plaza Hotel.
We're having a great conference so far, and I have the chance now to speak to Indu Kumar, who is a junior at Vanderbilt College, somebody who writes for the college paper at Vandy, The Hustler, and works as a research assistant conducting research into the intersection of water shortages, food insecurity, domestic violence, and women in El Salvador.
But also somebody who has worked as an organizer and just a kind of a major force with Americans United, getting young people involved.
And so let me just stop and say, Indu, thanks for being here.
Thank you for having me.
So let me just start here.
You've done so much work surrounding religion, the ways that religion impacts policy.
And I think you're somebody who you somewhat unique in the sense that you see the ways that religion can be a positive force in the public square, but also a negative force in the public square.
So what are the positive ways religion impacts like movement building and public discourse and policy in your mind?
Yeah, so I have the great privilege and unfortunate experience of living in Nashville, which has a great history of the civil rights movement and clergy being actively involved in basically shifting paradigms around race relations in the entire country.
And like you mentioned, I go to Vanderbilt University and the Divinity School there has A really powerful, has been a really really powerful force and continues to be in continuing to make sure that like clergy are involved and at the front lines of both theorizing about like theology and how it can be useful in social movements and also like literally being on the front lines.
On the other hand, we also have, like, probably the leading force in state legislatures across the country in terms of attacking trans people specifically, but also just queer people in general, in using white Christian nationalism as a justification for it.
And so, like, literally last week, there was a Moral Monday protest after the expulsion of the Tennessee Two.
Two of them got expelled.
And I was there with Reverend Barber from North Carolina.
And it was just really powerful to see clergy turn out the way they do.
And they're honestly the ones leading this movement.
So I think it's really important to shed light on that, especially as someone who's currently living in the South.
When I think of Nashville and the Tennessee Two, I think of Justin Jones as somebody who is a movement organizer, a representative, but if I'm not mistaken, also a student at Nashville Divinity School and really somebody who I think is embodying a lot of what you're talking about.
Yes, exactly.
And like, if you see any of the response to the videos of them speaking before the expulsion, everyone has remarked that both of them sound like preachers.
Both of them are so influenced by the black church in the South.
And after everything that's gone on since the shooting at Covenant, We, me as a student and others have been like organizing and trying to get students to see that like, this is a long term movement.
And for us, one of the biggest things that we did was last week, we organized a nonviolent training with Reverend Sekou, who was a student of James Lawson, also an alumni of Vanderbilt Divinity School.
He was expelled from the Divinity School for his activism in the civil rights movement.
And he taught us, like, something with a very long history, which is militant nonviolent civil disobedience, but very much informed by his religious values.
It's just really powerful to be connected to elders who are teaching us strategies to deal with what is a Republican legislature and a very legislatively bleak situation.
And so we've, through, I think, the influence of the church, been able to find community and Uh, build solidarity and I'm not a Christian.
I didn't grow up Christian, but it's just there's clearly such an influence in the South when we don't have other institutions supporting this kind of movement building.
You know, it's interesting to hear you talk about joining a movement that is, in many ways, spearheaded by the black church.
You're talking about the fact that you didn't grow up Christian.
I've lived in the South, and a lot of the ways that race is constructed in the South is often according to a black-white color line.
And as an Asian American, for me, it was a little bit tricky to find my place in certain movements.
I'm wondering how, for you as somebody who is an Asian American, What is it like for you to be not a Christian, not a black person, and yet, you know, part of and in solidarity with a movement that is largely spearheaded by black clergy?
Yeah, so I think to talk about that, I would have to talk about some of the things that influence why I'm in this movement in the first place for separation of church and state.
I think when we talk about separation of church and state, people very much see it as something specific to the United States because the language is from like the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
But the way that I was brought to this issue is because I grew up Uh around a lot of Hindu people.
I grew up Hindu and I also was able to see the influence of the of Hindu nationalism both in the United States in the diaspora and the way that it was connected to horrible things including pogroms against Muslims in India.
And a lot of my organizing prior to Americans United my work with Americans United in regard to the issue of separation of church and state was actually like tracing the financial connections between folks here and the very horrid stuff going on in India in the subcontinent as a whole.
And so when I think about like what is my positionality in relation to the like race relations in the United States I seem I I think A lot of South Asians specifically should be thinking about their caste positionality because a lot of Asian immigrants in general, our communities are not monoliths.
And it's very important for us to see who we are within our respective diasporas and what privileges we may have.
And so that's kind of how I see myself as someone with a lot of privilege because of my religious background.
And someone who I think is working to solve traumas associated with that in my own community and taking, I think, taking the example of what black church leaders have done to influence the church as a whole in the United States.
And there's a long history of Dalit or oppressed caste folks in India learning from Black liberation theology in the United States, so this is by no means a new connection.
And yeah, I think that's how I see myself.
I mean, first of all, thank you for sharing your story.
I was just getting seriously inspired hearing you lay out your journey and the ways that, I mean, you just did something that I think is astounding.
You talked about the ways that religion in the form of the black church in the South is such an organizing force for justice.
And you talked about the ways that you've been part of that in a response to the experiences and understandings you have of Hindu nationalism, whether in India on the subcontinent or in the diaspora, as well as the ways that Christian nationalism, right, is oppressive and hurtful.
And so it's really incredible to think about your positionality there.
I'm supposed to be hosting a podcast, so I'm not allowed to be speechless, but I'm doing my best.
You've worked for Americans United.
Americans United is An organization that fights for separation of church and state every day.
And you've spent time organizing folks, Gen Z folks, young people.
What are the issues that galvanize them?
When you talk to folks, sometimes I think for a young person, they might think separation of church and state, like, what does that have to do with me?
What are the ways you explain how this is actually a really crucial issue?
Yeah, I think honestly you kind of talked about it on your panel.
I think the biggest thing is to get people to realize what their self-interest in fighting for the separation of church and state is and the way that it is a root cause for a lot of the issues that we're seeing right now.
So like an attack on democracy, January 6th, Attacking trans people, attacking religious minorities, the demonization of marginalized communities, all of that can be traced back to this idea of, like, how do we build a homogeous nation-state?
Who is, like, the ideal citizen-patriot?
And I think once people are able to do an analysis like that, it's very clear why the separation of church and state is such an important issue in the United States because, honestly, it's driving so much of What the right wing is doing in a post-Trump era.
One of the things I've been hopeful about and trying to follow from afar is the ways that people are organizing in the wake of the expulsion of the Tennessee 2 and the way that there seems to be potential for a really broad coalition of folks in Tennessee who see what happened to the Tennessee 2 as just blatantly wrong and unjust.
But as something that ties in issues that go to systemic racism, gun violence, but also, as you say, Tennessee being a state that has some incredibly aggressive laws targeting trans people and restricting reproductive rights.
From what you've seen on the ground, you're there.
You were just at the march and the protest with Reverend Barber.
Do you feel that momentum growing in Tennessee among young people?
Yeah, definitely.
I think a lot of young people just needed a reason to turn out and this has been the reason.
People missed out on the fact that the beginning of this was a shooting and I think a lot of what we need to do right now is, now that they're reinstated, let's refocus on the issue that began all this, which is exactly what Reverend Barber was saying.
And he calls it policy murder, policy violence.
And so connecting the issue of gun violence to greater issues like systemic racism, which are undoubtedly also part of the reason that they got expelled and the attack on trans people, like how is the Tennessee legislature passing laws that are honestly just meant to like how is the Tennessee legislature passing laws that are honestly just meant to hurt the health and well-being of marginalized people that they think don't fit into their vision of what Tennessee or the nation
And I think a lot of students are making those connections, but they need a movement that is willing to make those connections too, and rhetoric that's willing to make those connections.
And so part of Like, so the the training that I mentioned, it's part of something we're doing called the Tennessee Student Solidarity Network.
We're trying to organize students from across different schools.
So that's HBCUs, that's Vanderbilt, that's Christian universities like Belmont and Lipscomb, and also high schoolers, because honestly, the biggest interest we've seen so far is from high schoolers.
There were unfortunately 13 year olds Sitting in the audience last week as they tried to lower the age for being able to own a firearm and as they tried to say we need to arm teachers and but it's simultaneously like really powerful to see how many people of different ages are really involved in this work.
But yeah, like we are very much taking inspiration from the SNCC and all these student movements that have come before us in Nashville.
And we're planning to have like a justice school in the summer because political education is important before we do movement building.
And so I'm really excited about what's to come.
I think in moments of crisis, there's the biggest opportunity for solidarity.
So I'm really excited.
It's incredible.
And it's really encouraging to hear the way you're discussing the broadness of the coalition, the interest of young people and the training that's happening, because this work takes training.
I mean, militant nonviolence is something that you train in.
It just doesn't happen.
That's incredible.
Just one or two more questions, I think.
One thing that I try to resist is when people say that Texas is a red state, Tennessee is a red state.
And the reason I don't like that is because I think of folks like you're discussing in Nashville, people of color, people of South Asian descent.
I was just at an event where I talked to a Latinx student from Nashville.
There's obviously a long and wide and deep presence of black Americans in Nashville and the black church in Nashville.
So like when I think of Tennessee, I think of a state that is controlled by Republicans, but to call it a red state seems to really miss the mark of what's happening on the ground and to erase all the kinds of work you're discussing.
So I'm just wondering for you, you know, when you think of Nashville, what is your Nashville?
What does it look like?
Yeah, I mean, I think it's important to note that the reason or one of the many reasons that both of the Justins were expelled was because they represent the blackest parts of the state, Memphis and Nashville.
And I'm gonna borrow words from Reverend Barber again.
He said that Tennessee is an oppressed state, not a red state.
And it's so true because he talks a lot about like, if you can just turn out 20% of the poorest and most marginalized, most impacted people in the state because they're not being organized, they're not being talked to, and that's not only Black people from the South, it's also rural white people in the South who have the same interests.
Those people are frankly not being catered to by Democrats or Republicans.
And those people are the coalition that I think a religious perspective can animate, that I think a perspective that talks about policy violence and policy murder can animate.
And I think just as Americans in general, we need to be real about the fact that like, We need to reach folks who aren't being reached right now.
When you ask me what does national mean to me, it means students, it means workers, because Tennessee is one of the worst states for construction workers' rights in the entire United States.
Um, and there's such an influx of capital there right now in Nashville.
It means it's students, workers, queer people.
It means people of color.
It means religious leaders.
It means rural white folks.
It means all these people coming together.
And I really love that Nashville actually does have such a diversity of people there.
And we have music to animate our movements as well.
And I think That's what Nashville is to me and we have such a rich history and it feels really sad that I think a lot of Americans on the coast honestly weren't paying attention to us or the work we were doing until there was something like this, you know?
No, it's just so well said.
And I used to teach at Rhodes College in Memphis, and I have a lot of love for Memphis.
I have so many friends and colleagues there.
To me, there was just very little coincidence that Justin Pearson from Memphis, Justin Jones from Nashville were the ones who were targeted and expelled.
Anyway, we could talk forever about that.
We are out of time.
Are there ways that if there are young people listening who are just inspired by your work, that they might link up with things you're doing?
Is there a place they can connect with you?
Yeah, definitely follow our Instagram.
So that's TN Student Solidarity Network.
And if you ever have questions about how to get involved in wherever you're at, you can always follow me on Instagram.
It's just my name Induja Kumar, I-N-D-U-J-A K-U-M-A-R on Instagram.
That's perfect.
Well, Indu, we're so thankful for your time today.
Once again, truly inspired by the work you're doing.
Thankful for your presence here.
Thankful for your presence in Nashville.
We hope you have the rest of the weekend's a great conference for you.
