The Flag and the Cross Part II with Sam Perry and Phil Gorski
In Part 2 of a two-part interview, Brad speaks with Philip Gorski (Yale) and Sam Perry (Oklahoma University) about their new book, the Flag and the Cross: White Christian Nationalism and the Threat to American Democracy: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-flag-and-the-cross-9780197618684?cc=us⟨=en&#.
Gorski and Perry explain what white Christian nationalism is and is not; when it first emerged and how it has changed; where it's headed and why it threatens democracy. Tracing the development of this ideology over the course of three centuries—and especially its influence over the last three decades—they show how, throughout American history, white Christian nationalism has animated the oppression, exclusion, and even extermination of minority groups while securing privilege for white Protestants. It enables white Christian Americans to demand "sacrifice" from others in the name of religion and nation, while defending their "rights" in the names of "liberty" and "property."To Donate: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/BradleyOnishi
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Produced by Brad Onishi
Edited by Shannon Sassone
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Welcome to Straight White American Jesus.
Today is part two of my interview with Phil Gorski and Sam Perry on their book, The Flag and the Cross.
On today's segment, we discuss not only Christian nationalism in the United States, but we link it to Putin's attack on Ukraine and how and why American Christians are lured by Putin's leadership.
Sam and Phil relate this directly to the ideology of Christian nationalism and the authoritarian strains that live within that cultural identity and the ways that Putin has been propped up as the ideal leader in the Christian nationalist mind.
So if we go back to the idea that white Christian nationalism is about order, and we want to get the country in the right order, and if we and we want to get the country in the right order, and if we have to use violence to do that, we will, two
One is, the higher one scores on the Christian Nationalist Register, the more likely one is to want to restrict the vote.
Is that true, and why do you think that is, if it is?
Yeah, so I think this is one of those things that we have We feel like this is at the core of this argument about why white Christian nationalism would be a threat to American democracy, because it fundamentally wants to limit participation in not just American culture and who shapes our values and our sacred symbols and whose images that we revere and that kind of thing, but
It is built around people like us should have power and people like them, the outsiders, the bad guys, should be politically, you know, curtailed in their influence.
And so we find that white Christian nationalism powerfully predicts, say, the belief that we make it too easy to vote already, right?
Like it's already too easy to vote.
And we found this before the 2020 election.
So our data shows this like in October 2020, before anybody had ever cast a vote, These people were already saying like, no, absolutely.
It's way too easy to vote.
Voter fraud is rampant.
We find it correlated with the view that, or associated with the view that, you would support hypothetical laws that you'd have to pass a basic civics test so that you disenfranchise certain felons for life.
I mean, that's like Jim Crow kind of like restrictions on voting.
We also find, and we talk about this at the end of the book, It's not just voting, but it's the kind of arrangement that would benefit, a political arrangement that would benefit our tribe, even at the sacrifice of, say, democratic participation.
So, for example, Christian nationalism is negatively associated with believing that we have to address gerrymandering to ensure fair congressional election.
Why in the world?
You know, like, why would that?
Well, because who benefits currently from gerrymandering or racial gerrymandering?
It would be You know, the cultural and political right.
Even after we control for, like, partisanship and ideology, which, like, Christian nationalism doesn't care, or, like, the more you affirm that, the more you really reject the idea that gerrymandering is a problem we need to address, because, you know, if you've got a policy, even if it's an anti-democratic policy that, like, bogs down, you know, the political, you know, process, if it's benefiting you, like, why not?
Like, let's keep it.
Yeah, go ahead.
No, no, no.
I mean, I was just going to jump in and say that the other one that comes to mind here is order and transgender rights, that we have a situation in Texas where, you know, parents are now being investigated for giving care or affirming their, you know, giving gender affirming care to their children.
For people who want small government, for people who are libertarian, it's like, why would you support the government essentially going to investigate people in their homes and taking their children away for giving them care?
And to me, that just speaks right back to the order.
So it's, I want to restrict the vote so we have the right people elected.
And I will literally support policies where people go door to door and make sure that trans folks are not receiving affirmation of who they are, because I want my country Right.
And I think Phil, I mean, explains this brilliantly, but I think, you know, to summarize a lot of that argument, I think it is libertarianism for me and control for you, right?
And that is always at the core of this kind of ideology.
Phil, what would you add there?
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