Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux - Judging Long Distance Relationships

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March 26, 2026 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:28:38

Judging Long Distance Relationships

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	Good evening, my friends.
	25th of March, 2026.
	Hope you're doing well.
	I would like to thank all of the flood of call-in requests that have come in.
	Happy to chat, always happy to help philosophy come to bear or be brought to bear on your glorious life.
	And thank you, everyone who's signing up.
	Freedomane.com, freedoman.com slash call to help out.
	Well, freedomman.com slash donate to help out the show slash call if you would like to have a call in public or private with me and a very interesting one today.
	I mean, they're all interesting.
	But if you're donors, it's already out there at the moment.
	And you can check it out at freedomman.com slash donate.
	All right, let's dive straight in.
	I have questions.
	I have comments.
	I have callers.
	If you would like to tell me what is on your mind.
	Hello.
	Hang on a second here.
	We are not getting you through the right.
	No, not that.
	Hang on.
	There we go.
	Try that again.
	Okay.
	Can you hear me now?
	There we go.
	Sorry about that.
	It was coming through the speaker, not through the headphones.
	So we're good now.
	That way everyone can hear you.
	What's on your mind?
	Hey, Stefan.
	We had a calling.
	I was on one of your calling shows.
	I think it was on a Wednesday night last week.
	And I missed out on the Chuck Norris part of it.
	So I didn't catch that till the following day on the actual podcast when I listened to the whole thing.
	And I have a joke of my own I made up today.
	Chuck Norris had a blood test.
	It came back positive for TNT.
	Nice.
	Nice.
	And nice to see a little bit of machismo still acceptable in the culture, even if it isn't largely a fictional character.
	But yeah, so what else is on your mind?
	So anyway, so I have a question regarding IQ.
	And, you know, during our conversation, you had mentioned briefly, I can't remember where during that conversation that occurred, but you brought up, you mentioned Steve Martin.
	And I thought, okay, that's interesting.
	And I'm a big fan of his too.
	And I would say Steve Martin arguably is sort of the Chuck Norris of comedy.
	I wonder, like, if any, what's your opinion of the correlation, if it exists, between IQ and a comedian?
	And just take, for example, Steve Martin as an example.
	Yeah, I mean, I'm a big fan of Steve Martin as a whole, although I find him in the sort of Monty Python vein to be quite surreal in his stand-up comedy.
	But he is very funny.
	A friend of mine and I used to listen to him quite a bit when I was in my teenage years because he's very funny.
	The absurdist style of humor was quite appealing to me.
	It took me a while to get into Monty Python.
	That came in through my brother.
	But I think Steve Martin, a very intelligent, I actually read his autobiography.
	He had a really rough childhood and a father who wanted to be him, right?
	There's an old line from Jung, which says, almost nothing has more effect on a child's life than the unlived life of the parents, like the dreams and the hopes and the goals and so on of the parents, especially if they weren't manifested.
	Steve Martin, very funny and very witty.
	And he's one of the few people who stopped at the top.
	He was the biggest stand-up drawer that comedy had ever seen.
	And he stopped right at the top and began to do movies instead.
	He wrote The Jerk or co-wrote The Jerk and was in that, of course, as the lead character.
	Pretty funny, funny-ish.
	And he did, yeah, had a string of great movies.
	I'm a big fan of the movie Parenthood.
	I think it's staggeringly witty and quite insightful.
	And think about him when his son finally does something good on the baseball team that he's like crawling along the ground with joy and all of that.
	I will say something, though, with Steve Martin, and because I have a little bit of tinnitus in my left ear, sometimes more than a little, but mostly it's just like a two or a three.
	But Steve Martin got some pretty horrifying tinnitus when he was on the movie set three amigos.
	There was a gun that went off right next to his ear, and it just, you know, it's why you all see these movies like shooting and firing and shooting in enclosed areas.
	Linda Hamilton had it too when she was in, I think, Terminator 2.
	There was a scene in an elevator with a whole bunch of enclosed gunfire and she forgot to put on her ear protection and it just, you know, messed up her ears.
	William has it from the music business and so on.
	And I think, I don't know, but it seems to me that a lot of the joy and vim and goofy humor went out of Steve Martin, perhaps, I mean, in sort of the last couple of decades.
	It could be due to tinnitus.
	It could be due to something else.
	He was very funny in Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, a movie role.
	Well, actually, Michael Cain only did that movie because he figured it was a free vacation in the south of France.
	So it was kind of funny.
	It's not a bad way to do it.
	So, yeah, I think he's funny.
	He's quite absurdist.
	His writing I found to be quite moving in his autobiography when he went back to the theater that he used to do a lot of his early work in.
	And there was a certain sort of warmth and all of that.
	And I found him to be, you know, kind of goofy and funny.
	His stand-up was really well done.
	You know, the banjo playing as well.
	I would listen to his banjo playing, always expecting something funny to happen, but it didn't because he's a very good banjo player.
	But I would say, you know, that the tough thing, really the very tough thing in any creative endeavor is sustainability.
	And it's something that I think it was John Cleese many years ago who said that in your creativity, you get 15 years.
	If you're lucky, you know, you get 15 years.
	And then you are on the downward slope of your creativity.
	And of course, when was the last time someone like Paul McCartney had a hit or, you know, I guess any of the Beatles.
	And, you know, what did the Eagles do for the last 10 years of their existence?
	And even Bob Dylan, when he was being interviewed by that guy from 60 Minutes, was saying, you know, like, I can't do the stuff that I did.
	I can do other things, but I can't do all of the creative stuff that I did when I was younger.
	And I think the last new Bob Dylan song I had was on one of the Traveling Wilbury's albums.
	I remember listening to it when I was going to theater school and it was just like, God, this is horrible.
	This is just terrible, wretched, low trash stuff.
	I mean, even Jacob Dylan, his son, the lead singer of The Wallflowers, had like one good album, as far as I know, and with one headlight.
	It's a very good song.
	But again, it's just so sad and dismal and depressing and all of that.
	So how do you keep your creativity going?
	Last thing I saw Steve Martin pop up in was Murder in the Building or something like that with Martin Short and Wizards of Waverly play, Selma, I can't remember her name, but I mean,
	it just seemed kind of depressing.
	And I don't know how do you keep the joy going?
	How do you keep the creativity going?
	I would have a very tough time.
	I think I would have a very tough time getting out of bed if I couldn't do the brain dance, if I couldn't, you know, get great questions and just feel that furnace, that fire, that llama, that lava, lava,
	that lightning strike, that tsunami of problem solving.
	You know, I had a caller ask me for an analysis of the prodigal son.
	So I went and refreshed myself on it and then just riffed on it for like an hour.
	And it's just so much fun.
	It is an absolute joyful catapult, high wire act playground of a brain to be living in.
	And if that shut down, as it seems to for a lot of people, you know, people would say to Michael Jackson, you know, like, well, where do your songs come from?
	And he's like, I don't know.
	They just, they just come to me.
	Roger Hodgson said the same thing about the logical song.
	It just assembled itself in its brain.
	Paul McCartney dreamt the tune to yesterday, woke up and played it to everyone saying, have you heard this before?
	And nobody knows where this kind of creative stuff comes from.
	Because of course, as songwriters say in particular, if I knew where the good songs came from, I'd go back there more often.
	And trying to keep that flame and fire of creativity alive, if you have that creativity, to me, seems one of the most essential tasks in the world.
	And to maintain that fire, it's like carrying a candle through a blizzard to keep your creativity alive.
	I don't think Steve Martin has done it.
	I read one of his novels.
	It was sort of a semi-science fiction novel.
	It's pretty bad.
	I read Shop Girl and it was pretty bland, no vim and vinegar in it, no passion, no enthusiasm, no energy.
	And I mean, I myself have written like 20 books.
	A bunch of them have been novels.
	And I am constantly coming up with new ideas and new arguments.
	And I love that creativity.
	That's meat and drink for me.
	That's oxygen to my lungs.
	And I don't know how people create it.
	Now, of course, obviously, people like Bob Dylan and Steve Martin achieve just a tiny bit more fame than I did.
	So I don't know what that's like being in that kind of creative space or endeavor.
	Martin Short, of course, had this absolutely wretched, tragic, horrifying life.
	Rick Moranis also, wife died of cancer, and he basically retired from acting to raise his kids.
	I think he's coming back a little bit now.
	Joe Flaherty, who was in SCTV, and I was watching Freaks and Geeks, and they keep having this Count Chocolate because he played this funny Count.
	Count Chocolate is on the table, a sort of homage to his SCTV days.
	And how do you keep that level of fire and creativity alive?
	That to me is really one of the most essential tasks that I have.
	How do you be engaging?
	How do you keep the passion alive?
	How do you keep pushing forward to new heights and new options and new possibilities?
	I think if you can sustain creativity, and I suppose, I mean, I was creative in the business world from a marketing, sales, and technology standpoint, but it wasn't the sort of artistic creativity that I had before and after.
	And I think my most recent novel called Dissolution, I was very happy with, and everybody should check it out.
	It's free at freedom.com/slash books.
	And I feel like I can still do it.
	You know, whether people agree or not, you know, a lot of people put out bands, a lot of bands put out music that just gets worse and worse.
	You know, I listened to the last Paul McCartney album.
	It was absolutely wretched.
	I listened to the last Yes album.
	Yes was a band that I absolutely loved when I was younger and still love some of their stuff.
	But yeah, the new stuff is just absolute trash.
	And it's the same thing.
	Alan Parsons had a very big peak creativity stuff.
	Pyramid is an absolutely fantastic album, as is Eye in the Sky.
	And then it just got bad and cliched and terrible.
	I don't know how it is that bands don't know when to stop, or maybe they just get so many sycophants around them that nobody says, no, this is bad.
	No, this is that you could do way better than this.
	And of course, Alan Parsons had, what was it?
	Eric Wolfson was the primary writer, a guy who was a Jewish guy, very creative.
	He was going to go to be an accountant and he got a job as an accountant.
	And the accountant manager, the guy who managed him, said, look, man, if you can do anything else, please go and do it because you can't do accounting to save your life.
	You're terrible.
	So he ended up writing, you know, very impressive, quasi, like Mike Bat style, quasi, or Mike Oldfield, maybe, but quasi-classical, like classical with rock guitars and drums, like Tarot Suite and so on.
	And amazing stuff.
	But how do you keep that creativity going?
	I was reading that Eric Wolfson himself was a raging alcoholic, but I haven't found a lot of confirmation about that.
	Almost, you know, Sting.
	I listened to Sting's last album.
	His voice is somewhat short.
	He also has bad tinnitus.
	He used to have hearing aids, but he said he preferred not being able to hear what people had to say.
	And so, yeah, how do you keep that creativity alive?
	How do you keep it going?
	It's really, really tough.
	And most, of course, most artists, which is not me, of course, right?
	But most artists, what they do is they get a couple of albums of hits.
	I remember many years ago when I was in the business world, I was giving a presentation at a conference in New York City and I went to go and see Bare Naked Ladies.
	And it was a very good concert, but all of their songs were way old.
	You know, they haven't written anything that I know of or have heard of at all.
	And so, yeah, just trying to keep that flame alive is really, really tough.
	Most artists, a couple of good albums that they can just tour for the rest of their lives.
	They can just go and tour and, you know, play that old song, you know, play Radio Free Europe, just like it's on the record.
	Don't do anything weird and jazzy with it.
	Don't screw it up.
	Just play that.
	And then people just go for the nostalgia tour and so on.
	And I don't have that luxury.
	Like I can't just, you know, put out my old shows and get people to come.
	So I got to keep coming up with new stuff, which is keeping the wheels turning, keeping the energy going.
	And then you don't end up like, you know, Queen had a couple of great albums.
	And then the last couple of albums were mostly us as a whole.
	And you're not creative.
	I mean, it's a long way down from Bohemian Rhapsody to the song Freddie Mercury wrote about his cat called Delilah.
	I remember listening to that song for the first time and it sounds like a love song, Delilah, I love you, I love you.
	And then he says, and then you make me slightly mad when you pee all over my Chippendale suite.
	And I'm like, and then you've got the backup, like the, I guess, the drummer and the guitarist, Roger and Brian.
	The guitarist is making meow sounds on his guitar.
	And then all of the singers that were doing Bohemian Rhapsody and Prophet's song and Queen 2 and March of the Black Queen, they're going meow in the background.
	And I'm like, man, that's a long way down, man.
	It's a long way down from the heights of Bohemian Rhapsody to here's a song about Cat P.
	It's funny because All Dead, All Dead, which is a beautiful song off the game.
	No, not the game.
	News of the World.
	Absolutely beautiful song written by Brian May.
	Lyrics are fantastic.
	And it is about a cat, but it's got some depth and medieval meaning to it.
	It's about a cat that died when he was very young.
	I just really, really am very desperate.
	You know, I've been doing philosophy for 45 years.
	I've been doing it publicly for 21 years.
	I'm already six years past my expiration date of 15 years of peak creativity.
	But man alive, do I ever want to keep things going?
	Man alive, do I ever need that fire?
	That is my reason for treading the heavy gravity of this M-class planet.
	So yeah, sorry.
	And some of these sort of playfulness and twists and turns of Steve Martin's comedy were fantastic.
	You know, I'm sure you've heard the bit about, you know, that he tries to impress a woman by his stock trading acumen.
	And he's like, yeah, I'm heavy into cardboard, like cardboard.
	You know, I trade it quite a bit.
	And yeah, I bought it at two cents a ton.
	It's now at six cents a ton.
	I brought three tons of it.
	And well, you do the math.
	And I made a special deal where I only have to keep two tons of it at my house.
	Like, that's just, that's genius.
	That's absolutely gut-wrenching genius stuff.
	Yeah.
	The stereo skit Googleplex.
	This sounds like shit.
	Hey, maybe it's the needle.
	And just brilliant stuff.
	The, I want a million dollars.
	I want a getaway car.
	Because he says you always have to put a crazy demand in your demands if you've got a hostage so that you can get the insanity defense.
	And he's like, I want a million dollars.
	I want a getaway car.
	And I want the letter M stricken from the English language.
	Getaway car.
	You know, it's just really good, funny, twisty-turny stuff.
	And of course, he was a very good actor and so on.
	So yeah, I mean, he's one of these people, you know, because they're all dropping dead these days, right?
	All the people from your youth, you know, somehow we still think we're going to evade it, but all the people from my youth kind of dropping dead.
	He's not, I don't think, in any way, sick, and he seems to be pretty healthy and so on.
	But where's the fire?
	Where's the creativity?
	Where's the new albums?
	Where's the, you got to keep working these muscles.
	I will not ever, ever try to rest on my laurels.
	I will always assume every show is a new show.
	Every time I talk to people, I got to give something new.
	You know, there's all these political guys on, I guess, on the left and on the right.
	It's the same damn show over and over again.
	I mean, Bill O'Reilly, oh my God, the same show over again.
	Mark Levina, same show over and over again.
	Sean Hannity is the worst of these things.
	It's just copy paste, copy, paste, copy, paste.
	Watching him lick the butt crack of Mark Levin.
	Oh, the great one.
	I was like, oh, could you imagine going on a show and someone's like, oh, the great one?
	Oh, you're the greatest.
	Like, stop it, you sycophantic court.
	Tony, it's vile.
	Even if you've got a Cro-Mannian forehead, like a beat-down low-rent hedgerow.
	But anyway, it's just, I couldn't do the same show over again.
	I just couldn't.
	I would rather, I'd rather be a plumber or a gardener or a Tyler.
	I would rather be anything than do that same show over and over again.
	And so for me, the fact that I get questions like this and I get all of this variety and I get all of these challenges and people come up with new stuff for me to masticate over in my mind and that develops new muscles, which then hopefully propels me to even better speeches.
	And it's great.
	And so I, yeah.
	Steve Martin, very funny guy.
	You know, did he add to the virtue of the world?
	Nah, not really.
	But, you know, entertainers are entertaining.
	And it's up to me to do that, if that makes sense.
	Sorry, long speech.
	I hope that makes some sense to you.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	I mean, that's great.
	I think it's kind of interesting for me, at least, for my opinion, that as children, when we're born, I would say this is probably true for every child, that we're born with like intense curiosity.
	That's like the default state of mind that we, as we progress, we get more curious.
	And then it just gets beaten out of us if we're unlucky.
	And I think that creativity and sorry, not creativity, curiosity.
	My mistake.
	We're born with intense curiosity.
	And then that leads to, if it's maintained, it leads to creativity.
	But for so many of us, it gets, you know, not beaten out of us literally.
	I don't mean like physically beaten out of us, but it's a difficult thing to maintain, curiosity.
	And if you do maintain it, then I would say you're kind of one of the lucky ones, I think.
	I include myself in this.
	I'm intensely curious.
	And I won't say I'm necessarily intensely creative, but I'm somewhat creative.
	But curiosity, I think, is linked with creativity.
	What do you think?
	I think that's true.
	And I don't know if you have had kids, but if you have kids, and I tend to be pretty social around kids, you know, if I'm at a park, I'll get a game going if that's what my daughter wanted.
	And she generally did.
	And also, I'm aware of she's an only child.
	So we've kind of got to get the socialized stuff going.
	So when my daughter was young and we would go to parks or swimming pools, I would get a game going and I'd talk to the parents, say, is it okay?
	Blah, blah, blah.
	I worked in a daycare.
	And, you know, they're usually fine with it because all the thunes, you know, so we'd go play parks and beaches and I would get games going.
	Because for me, games are great fun.
	And I've wanted my daughter to get sort of the team experience and the playing with other kids experience.
	So I'd get games going.
	And when the kids are young, they go fluidly, straight, no hesitation, like walking through an archway.
	They go into creative land.
	You know, you're a dragon, you're a knight, you're a princess, you're a this, you're a straight, like no hesitation, no self-consciousness.
	They go straight in.
	Boom.
	Grease lightning.
	It's like a loosh.
	And they go straight in.
	And then you can see it's very sad.
	Very sad.
	As they get older, they get older.
	What happens?
	They start to get a little bit more self-conscious, a little bit more hesitant, a little bit more, ah, you know, is it the right way?
	Is it the wrong way?
	You know, younger kids just go skating straight into it.
	They're just like, like, like you see those people running down at that cheese, running down the hill at the cheese festival or whatever it is.
	They're like, boom, they just, you almost have to slow them down.
	But as they get older, they get more self-critical.
	They get more self-conscious.
	They can't surrender themselves to the moment and be creative in the instant.
	They have to judge themselves.
	They get this observing ego that harshly criticizes them.
	They get the eye of sore on you.
	This big, beady, fiery eye just staring down at them.
	And it's not funny enough.
	Oh, that's not good enough.
	And you have to suspend that stuff.
	Creativity is about like, I'm not going to judge right now.
	Get it down to get it right.
	I'm not going to judge it right now.
	I'm just going to throw myself completely into it.
	I'll judge it later, whatever.
	You know, I'll do my edits or whatever.
	But I'm going to just do it now and throw myself into it.
	No hesitation, no barriers, no boundaries.
	Whatever comes out is fine.
	I can always tweak it later if I need to.
	And that creativity is just grounded out of children.
	I think mostly it's government schools.
	And maybe older siblings that cringe, you know, because people want to get you to view yourself through a cynical and denigrating lens.
	They want you to rip your soul and heart right out of your brain and put it in this caustic death star orbit around you so that you have to judge yourself as cringe, as embarrassing, as too enthusiastic, as too energetic, as too creative,
	and so on.
	Like, oh, that's kids' stuff, you know, and you just get this stuff ground, ground out of you.
	And this is not just my guesswork.
	I mean, we know this.
	We know this for a fact because the studies are children's creativity and happiness.
	It's dose-dependent.
	Every single year they're in government schools, it goes down.
	It goes down.
	And you get the soul and the life and the creativity and the joy and the ichor and the spinal fluid of serendipity just gets shamed, embarrassed, laughed at.
	And of course, the older kids participate.
	The older kids pile on the younger kids and laugh at them.
	And that's kid stuff.
	And you need to outgrow that.
	And that's ridiculous.
	And, you know, who do you think you are?
	And that's so cringe and all that kind of stuff.
	And all of that play, all of that energy, all of that creativity, all of that joy just, you know, it's like sand in the hourglass.
	Just down, down.
	And then by the time you get to college, well, by the time you get to your mid-late teens, what does everyone want to do?
	They want to do drugs.
	They want to be promiscuous and they want to drink alcohol.
	They just want to escape, right?
	So they set this eye of Sauron on you.
	This eye of Sauron, just blisters down on all of your potential.
	And then people get socially anxious, they get depressed, and then they have to drink just to, I view all alcohol as just that you're pouring water on the eye of Sauron just to shut it up for a bit.
	Just stop looking at me that way, eye of Sauron.
	Just stop looking at me, looking down at me all the time.
	I can't stand it.
	Douse it in alcohol, drown it in sex, drown it in like, you blow your marijuana smoke, retreats for a little bit.
	And of course, it bursts back into flame.
	It comes back sometimes stronger than ever.
	But people are just on that dance with the eye of Sauron.
	Just keep it away, keep it away, keep it away.
	Just give me five minutes of not being self-conscious, of not judging myself, of not criticizing myself, of not thinking that I'm not funny enough, of not thinking that I'm not insightful enough, of not thinking that I'm not cool enough.
	Just stop, stop it.
	And people just, there's this eye of Sauron, this clause is raking people constantly.
	And they just do anything, video games, porn, drugs, sex, alcohol, noise, anything to shut that tyrant up,
	to shut that eye of Sauron up that looks at you like you're ridiculous and cringe and pointless and worthless.
	That sneering elder brother, put down, look down.
	And I saw this in the sort of grim march forward in time.
	And it is my goal to a large degree to try and keep that alive in people as best I can.
	Sorry, again, long speech, all yours.
	No, absolutely.
	I mean, I 100% agree with you on this.
	You know, the importance of peaceful parenting, I would say.
	I'm not a parent, but I'm old now.
	You know, you know that I'm an old guy.
	But as far as children go, like, I find it just astounding how children are just sort of like taken for granted or, you know,
	just they're the most important thing we have because they're going to be the future generation, right?
	So if we can't invest in our children, or not my children, but if, you know, then what do you hope?
	What are you going to hope for them?
	What hope do you have?
	If you don't have that hope, I don't know what hope you can possibly have for our future future generations.
	Yeah.
	And if the goal is to evacuate your sense of humor and joy and replace it with caustic cynicism, because cynicism holds no threat, contains no threat to the powers that be.
	However, laughter and joy definitely do.
	Yeah.
	Because if you're happy, then you notice when the powers that be are trying to make you unhappy.
	If you're already miserable, you don't care.
	In fact, you're probably going to join in.
	So the purpose is to destroy the spontaneous joy and creativity of human beings so that they don't notice when you enslave them bit by boiling frog bit.
	You know, it's I totally agree.
	It's incredible how children, how perceptive they are.
	Now, I just want to give you a quick example here of something that happened to me.
	This is a number of summers ago.
	My friend, her brother had brought his kids over.
	We had this sort of paddling pool, inflatable paddling pool set up on the back.
	And they came over, there's four kids, and they all get into the paddling pool.
	And then I don't know where I come up with this idea.
	I can't remember, but I thought, oh, I'm going to make something funny happen here.
	Anyway, so went to the show.
	I got a vest on, like, you know, there's safety vests and a hard hat and a clipboard.
	And then I went and a whistle.
	And I went in and they didn't stay and see me.
	And I blew the whistle.
	And then I came over and I said, what are you, what are you doing in this paddling?
	What are you doing?
	Do you have a permit for this?
	And immediately, immediately they switched on to how funny, like this, in this game, you know?
	And then I kept going, do you have pushes?
	I need to see a permit for.
	And they were just so laughing and into the whole thing.
	And they were just responding back like, this is a brand new game.
	And it was just beautiful.
	You know, it was so beautiful to see how smart and perceptive their brains are.
	You know, their minds were, right?
	And it kind of, you know, it was wonderful, a wonderful experience.
	But it's also kind of, for me at least, it's sort of like tragic because I know like really kind of what their home life is like.
	And, you know, and I just think, oh my God, look how easy it is.
	Look how easy.
	Like, it didn't cost me a penny.
	It didn't cost me anything.
	It cost me like 10, 15 minutes of my time.
	But the payback for that is you can't put a price on it.
	And it's so easy.
	Like it doesn't take hard.
	You don't have to be a genius or anything to come up with how to make fun, how to make some fun time with kids.
	It's so easy.
	And it just breaks my heart when I just see that being just sort of thrown away.
	Well, it's like that fairly tragic picture of all the kids' bikes on the front lawn at night.
	And it says, you know, when you were a kid, when you were in your early teens, maybe mid-teens, you and your friends went out at night for the last time.
	You didn't know it was the last time.
	Right.
	But that's what happened.
	Some things you know, like high school is the end of high school, junior high, the end of, you know.
	But, you know, you go out and you mean to do it again.
	Okay, but whatever.
	Someone gets a girlfriend and whatever it is, right?
	And it's the last time.
	I mean, and my friends and I as a teenager got together to play Dunchers and Dragons, which was a huge blast and taught me a lot about creativity and imagination and role-playing and world building.
	You know, you, you, oh, we'll, you know, we'll get together, blah, blah, blah.
	But you don't for whatever reason, right?
	And it's the same thing with your original joy and creativity.
	It gets scared by disapproval and contempt.
	And you let it go a little bit, let it go, suppress it a little bit.
	And then that last creative impulse you have.
	For most people, it's in their early mid-teens.
	That last creative impulse you have, you shame it once too many times.
	You put it down once too many times.
	You leave it unacknowledged once too many times.
	You suppress it and choke it once too many times, and it dies.
	Yeah.
	And that's the last time you get a potent, powerful, funny, invitalizing, creative, impulsive thought, and it's dead.
	And that's what I see in modern music and movies and TV shows.
	It's just dead.
	It's all locked conformity to leftist propaganda, and it's all there to program you.
	The entire purpose of art these days is to completely go counter to your lived experience.
	And to, because most people live in media, and that's the matrix, right?
	They live in media and they, you know, they look at immigrants through the media.
	They look at migrants through the media.
	They don't go to these places and actually interact with people.
	So, yeah, the entire purpose of the media is to tell you that evil is good and good is evil to replace all of your natural instincts bequeathed to you by your ancestors.
	So, and there's no creativity in that.
	It's all just manipulation and control.
	All right.
	Is there anything else you wanted to mention?
	We've got a couple other people who wish to.
	Thanks so much, Stefan.
	I've thoroughly enjoyed that.
	Thank you so much.
	I appreciate it.
	Thank you.
	All right.
	We've got somebody.
	No, that's not what I'm looking for.
	Sorry.
	I'll pretend I can do this without my glasses.
	I used to be able to.
	Oh, but I didn't really need glasses till I was in my 40s.
	So I'm not going to complain too, too much.
	All right.
	Brandon, you'll be up in just a sec.
	There we go.
	And it's all yours, my friend, if you want to unmute.
	I'm happy to hear what's on your mind.
	Hey, Steph, can you hear me?
	Yes, sir.
	Hey, I don't want to.
	I don't know if this topic is too long for the live special, but I was on an episode of yours about a year and a half ago.
	I had like the divorce from hell situation.
	If you didn't mind, I was happy to just give you an update if you had any feedback or advice.
	Do you remember the show number?
	I don't remember the show number, but I remember it would have been November of 2025.
	I think it was titled Divorce from Hell.
	I basically had the Ukrainian refugee spouse.
	All right.
	Let me just get the show title here.
	Boom, boom.
	Hmm.
	All right.
	Let's see here.
	Oh, looks like our sorting mechanism is not going quite.
	All right.
	Death by divorce.
	Let me just see here.
	Excuse me.
	Oh, that is really.
	Oh, there we go.
	We just have to click on that.
	All right.
	Okay.
	Well, you tell me a little bit about the call just to remind people, and then we'll get a catch-up.
	Yeah, no problem at all.
	So, yeah, I called in.
	I basically raced into a marriage with the wrong person for being pretty and kind of settling for just the fact that she wanted a long-term relationship and kids eventually.
	And I was overlooking a lot of important characteristics.
	And we kind of talked about, you know, how my situation with my family could have led to that, to kind of me settling and not being transparent enough.
	At the time, I think this was before my annulment was finalized.
	So I think after I called in, her parents did steal a bunch of stuff from my house.
	Eventually, she did sign the annulment paperwork so that got completely annulled.
	And then since then, I did hire, like, I did see a therapist, and I did also get some relationship coaching.
	And I have been dating since then.
	I don't know if I included enough detail to kind of jog your memory on.
	Was it annuled?
	It was successfully annulled as of April 2025.
	So almost exactly a year ago, it was completely annulled.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So what's been happening since?
	So I guess the big takeaway that you gave me on the call was that I didn't have enough people in my life that were there to keep me astray or to kind of talk me out of stuff in terms of my relationships.
	And that was kind of a perspective I hadn't thought about and one that was really useful I found.
	So after that, I want to say anywhere like a few months later, I kind of got back into the dating market.
	I did, it's kind of cringy to even admit it, but you know, I did hire like a relationship coach that was kind of going to give me some pointers and strategies on finding a solid relationship.
	And also, I just had a close friend that I just kept in the loop on my dating experiences and try to get feedback on whether or not I was, you know, settling for somebody who just looked to the part.
	Or yeah, I'm trying to think what else.
	That was the biggest change that I made personally, though.
	I mean, I did move back to America, so that was that was nice because just demographics are a little bit more conservative here than they were in Europe.
	I don't know if I gave, yeah, was that enough information or do you need me to continue?
	No, that's that's fine.
	What's what is it that you wanted to chat about today?
	I just wanted to see if you had, I mean, so I'm currently talking to somebody right now.
	I mean, it's only been like two months is fortunately, unfortunately, it's a long distance.
	But I'm doing something that I didn't do last time and called you, I guess, early on.
	So I wanted to see if you had anything I should keep in mind or consider as I'm kind of dating again following an annulment.
	All right.
	And what are your ages?
	So the current person I'm talking to is 25 and I'm 27, almost 28.
	So she's about two and a half years younger.
	And how far away is she?
	Right now, she's in, well, I don't say the States, but she's about, she's about like a two-hour flight away from where I'm at.
	So how are you going to get together?
	So she's just going to fly out and she works remote.
	So she's going to spend like a week here next month.
	Oh, I'm going to visit my family.
	So I'll be out of time.
	But once I get back, then she's going to come spend a week here.
	And how long have you been going out?
	So we were talking for a few weeks.
	And then at the time, she lives in a different place.
	I went there for the weekend.
	We went on a few dates over that weekend.
	And then last weekend, we spent a weekend together in my state for the full weekend.
	And then next month, we plan to spend a week together here.
	And have you slept together?
	No.
	No, separate rooms and everything.
	Okay.
	She's a conservative Christian.
	I got back into that more so myself, especially after the annulment.
	I've been actively attending church.
	And so we were both pretty upfront about going slow on that sort of stuff.
	What's the least quality voluntary relationship you have in your life?
	Work doesn't really count, but in terms of people you don't have to have in your life for work reasons.
	What is your least quality voluntary relationship?
	Oh, that's a really good question.
	That's tough.
	I'm not going to ask you the easy questions.
	Yes.
	Oh, no.
	It's post-graduate stuff.
	You always come up with questions that are just like so profound, but just like something I would never think of asking myself.
	Least quality voluntary relationship.
	I'd say like you and me talked about this last time a little bit, but there were some issues I do kind of have with my dad.
	We kind of, we do kind of butt heads.
	And I'd say we have a quality relationship, but I've just kind of lumped him into a category of like.
	you know, these are the things that I can get along with him over and these things I just like, you know, I don't want his advice necessarily on certain topics, like relationships or money.
	Like those are the two things that I, so I wouldn't say I have a bad relationship with him, but that was kind of a change that I made is, you know, I was like, he's great for being supportive.
	He's great for spending time with, but on certain topics, I just, because he had his own challenges in his past that were similar to mine, I just try to follow a different path and I just try to avoid those topics altogether with him.
	So I'd say that one's challenging.
	Other than that, I don't really have any bad relationships with people.
	I mean, I have some buddies at work that I hang out with and I'd say it's pretty service level.
	I don't confide in them too much, but I mean, I enjoy, I feel like I can be honest with them and vice versa.
	The entire art of what I do is trying to figure out when people have finished their thoughts.
	So your father is just, I'm like, I don't want to interrupt, but I also want to not have too many gaps.
	All right.
	So what are the topics you kind of talk about with your dad?
	So mainly anything money related, I try to, he and I have a different philosophy on money.
	I don't, I don't think, I mean, he's not, I don't think he's trying to like sabotage me financially, but I don't think his, I mean, I'm kind of more following like, you know, being absolutely debt-free, never acquiring debt ever again type thing.
	He's a little bit more of a spender, I guess.
	And I've told him this repeatedly.
	I just said, you know, we're going to have to agree to disagree.
	I don't, I don't, I just don't agree with you on certain things financially.
	It kind of gets annoying sometimes because he does like to give me like unsolicited advice.
	But I keep telling him like, no, like, no.
	If I want, if I want your opinion, I'll ask you, but I just don't agree.
	You disagree with his spending and his debt?
	Yeah, he's kind of more, he's just not as aggressive on, because I'm trying to do the whole thing where it's like, you know, debt-free, pay your helm off early, you know, 15% going to the market or Bitcoin or whatever.
	You know, I'm not, I'm trying to avoid at all costs any sort of like big purchase that's not going to accelerate me getting to where I want to be.
	And he has more of the mindset of like, oh, you've been working hard.
	You had a rough year.
	You know, if you get like some tax money, it's not the end of the world to like buy something that you like to celebrate or whatever.
	So I don't think it, I don't know if it's coming.
	I don't think it's coming from a bad place, but I just don't.
	That's how he spends his money, you know?
	So I just try to avoid that.
	Well, he also grew up when the economy wasn't a steaming pile of shit in a dog bowl.
	Yeah.
	No, you could enforce, you could afford your indulgences back in the day, right?
	It's like the boomers like, well, you know, just save up for two years and buy a house.
	It's like, not like that anymore, Gramps.
	So, yeah, I mean, people's monetary philosophies are largely shaped unthinkingly by their early experiences.
	And it is also to the to older people.
	Of course, I'm not holding your father responsible for this directly, but for older people, when they look at younger people and realize how hard things are for young people, they feel guilty, but they don't want to admit it.
	So they try to recreate their own history in the young people as if the world hasn't kind of economically gone to hell in a handbasket in a way.
	Right.
	No, no, that's very true.
	Because I'll talk to him about like mortgages and stuff and how I'm like, no, it's got to be only a quarter of my income and I got to be able to pay it off.
	And then he's kind of more like, you know, I do sense that guilt of like, well, you know, it's a house.
	It's a meaningful place.
	Like you should buy a house you like.
	And there is kind of that element of like a little bit of fantasy as opposed to practicality.
	Yeah.
	And the other thing, too, is that for older parents, I mean, I'm an older parent myself too.
	For older parents, it's really tough if you begin to suspect that your opinions are completely irrelevant to your children's circumstances and situation.
	So, of course, anytime I talk about dating on social media, what do people say?
	They're probably like, oh, you're not, you know, you're not swiping on hinge and 25 and you're only six feet and not six foot one.
	And so.
	Yeah, it's like, listen, Gramps, when you were dating in the Jurassic Park era, things were a little bit different.
	You could just present a young Philly Neanderthal with a dino egg and you'd be good to bang out six kids before dawn, right?
	So, yeah, I mean, so there is this concern and you either keep up with the young people and ask them their experience and do the, do your research, like just look at the price of houses versus after-tax income.
	And just, you know, you know the graph as well as I do, probably better, that the price of everything is just going through the roof.
	And real wages have stagnated since the 19 frickin 70s.
	That you need to make $100,000 now per year to have the same earning power as a guy who worked at McDonald's as a teenager in 1970.
	And people don't want to look at that and say, what the hell happened?
	What did we do?
	How did we shaft the young?
	They've got no purchasing power, colossal debt, endless unfunded liabilities.
	And people don't want to look and say, well, the system that I've approved of and cheered for and voted in is devouring the young.
	We have an Aztec bloody heart before the evil gods sacrifice of children economy.
	And people don't want to look at that.
	They want to somehow pretend that it's kind of the same as when I was younger.
	Yeah, it's different.
	There's AI, but it's kind of the same.
	It's like, but it's not.
	It's not the same.
	And you've got to be much more nimble, much more creative.
	And debt in the past was a launch pad.
	Debt right now is often quicksand and that's just changed brutally.
	So, yeah, it is.
	I was reading this thing in somebody ran this through AI.
	Like, okay, let's say there's some Indian immigrant and some native domestic, whatever, indigenous American, you know, some white guy or whoever, right?
	And they both want to buy a gas station.
	I mean, there's in America, there's like $200,000 of relatively cheap loans available to the immigrant that aren't available to the domestic population.
	It's completely insane.
	And so people don't want to look at that and say, what the hell has gone wrong with the system that new arrivals get vastly superior opportunities and offers than people who grew up and whose parents built the country and blah, blah, blah.
	And so, yeah, people don't want to look at the system and see how screwed up it is.
	So they take some of the optimism of their own youth and they apply it to the young now.
	And this is the, I'm not saying your dads, this is the boomer, lift yourself up by your bootstraps, just like I did stuff.
	It's like, you all took the ladder up when you went up.
	Now it's a wasteland of gig work and crypto crossed fingers and all this sort of nonsense.
	And they don't want to look at how bad the system is.
	So they just pretend that their advice still matters.
	Yeah, no, I think that's really true.
	And kind of an interesting point to what you were saying about how like, you know, trends and like whether it's finances or the dating market and stuff.
	What I found through my coaching was that a lot of the stuff that used to work is actually still really effective now.
	And it's stuff that I wasn't doing too well.
	Like, for example, being assertive and being decisive and communicating interests in a confident and forward way.
	Like, I mean, it sounds like really basic stuff, but for me, just getting better at doing that made a huge difference.
	So, I mean, I want to say, yeah, I went out with probably four girls or so before I met the one I'm talking to now.
	And it was kind of, I mean, I even told my coach, I was like, I'm almost about to take a break from dating for a while just because I'm so disappointed by it.
	But now I'm talking to somebody that's really rock solid so far.
	I guess time will tell how it plays out.
	Okay.
	So do you want her parents to be intimately involved in the raising of your children?
	Do you mean in terms of like kind of disciplinary stuff?
	Or do you just mean like, you know, showing up at the sports games and like, you know, seeing the children a lot?
	Or yeah, what do you mean exactly?
	I mean, do you want your girlfriend's parents to have authority and be around your children?
	I think, I think that really depends.
	I haven't met them yet.
	I mean, no, but you have her report of them.
	Yeah.
	She speaks pretty highly of her parents, of both of them.
	Yeah, I mean, she speaks highly of them.
	If they, if their values matched mine and I felt that they would be kind of supplemental towards my own parentsing, then I wouldn't be opposed to it.
	Okay, so she has good parents.
	Yeah, she says really positive things about them.
	The only thing she's kind of slightly critical is, you know, she said that they were kind of strict and stuff when she was younger, but she didn't say anything about them being overly controlling or manipulative.
	She gets along good with both of them.
	And so so far, nothing negative she said about them.
	Were they spankers?
	I never asked.
	I never asked about that, but she never said anything.
	I mean, she's staying with them right now just because she's moving due to work.
	So, I mean, if she's voluntarily staying with them for a period of time, I would assume there's some level of like, you know, that she gets along fine with them.
	Do you know how she was disciplined as a child?
	Not really.
	No.
	Bro.
	Bro.
	Why wouldn't you ask?
	Just out of curiosity.
	I mean, I think I just asked something.
	I was like, you know, like, how, you know, how was your relationship with your parents?
	How was it like growing up?
	And she's like, yeah, they're really good.
	You know, just strict on certain things.
	Like, I think it was just mean.
	Well, how was she punished?
	Strict.
	Beans punished.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	No, that's a good point.
	I didn't, I didn't ask that.
	I need to ask that.
	Why not?
	Um I mean, I'm assuming if I didn't ask, it's because I would, you know, maybe I'm afraid to know the answer.
	Well, I mean, have you talked to her about the idea of peaceful parenting, reasoning with children, that kind of stuff?
	I mean, it is only been two months, so I haven't, I mean, we haven't gotten that far.
	Sorry, aren't you 27?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	So what the hell are you doing walking into some relationship without having a values discussion in two months?
	How do you even know that you want the same things?
	Does she want to get married?
	Does she want to have kids?
	Oh, yeah.
	Okay.
	What does she think about homeschooling?
	What does she think about how to teach kids values?
	What does she think about punishing children or not punishing children?
	I know that I know that she wants to be a stay-at-home mom, and her and I are both religious, so we kind of agree on that.
	I have mentioned homeschooling in the past.
	I think it's a good idea.
	I think she would either be in favor of like a private school that matches like her values or a homeschool.
	She never said anything like negative about the concept of homeschooling.
	Punishments, we haven't gotten into that conversation yet.
	Sorry, you said, well, we've only been two months, but she's already told you she wants to be a stay-at-home mom.
	Yeah.
	So you're having values in future discussions already.
	So don't try and don't try and gaslight me, bro, about, oh, it's too early.
	We're just talking about bands we like.
	Well, I guess like, I don't know.
	I think, yeah, no, how that came about was like, you know, I was like, you know, what are your long-term goals?
	Like, you know, because she has a pretty decent job right now.
	I was like, you know, do you want to like pursue a career?
	Are you trying to like do something else?
	And she's like, yeah, I want to be a stay at a mom.
	I'm like, that's perfect because I agree with that.
	This is like her, like, so she doesn't have much relationship experience prior to talking to me.
	Because, I mean, so in college, she worked full-time because she didn't want to have any student debt.
	So she didn't really focus on dating at all.
	So her parents are poor?
	Or she didn't get a scholarship?
	I think they're middle class.
	They had five kids.
	So I think they're, you know, solid middle class with five kids.
	And then she stayed home and worked full-time so that she'd be debt-free out of college.
	And what does she take in college?
	Finance.
	And is that where she's working?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Because she's an accountant.
	She's an accountant.
	She doesn't have any debt.
	She's an accountant who wants to be a stay-at-home mom.
	I'm not blaming her, obviously, but it's like, great job, society.
	Way to train an accountant who's not going to stay in the workforce.
	I mean, I've met, like, you'd be surprised.
	Maybe you'd be surprised, maybe not, but I've met a lot of, I've talked to a lot of women that have like high-up jobs and it's almost like they're, it's almost like their backup or either their backup or like what they do while they're waiting to become a stay-at-home mom.
	Like I've met a lawyer that wants to.
	I know, I get it.
	It just means that we train all these people who then leave the workforce.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And again, I'm not blaming her.
	It's just, you know, as a guy who cares about resource allocation, it just drives me nuts.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	No, I so she's she's an accountant and she graduated a couple of years ago and then she probably wants to be a stay-at-home mom by the time she's 30.
	So she's got a cozy couple of years in the workforce before she leaves.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, basically.
	Okay.
	And so she's 25 and she hasn't dated much, right?
	No, no.
	So I was talking to her about it.
	Yeah.
	So she, you know, she did like, she, she basically just completely focused in college on working and graduating and didn't really date at all.
	And then, and then she moved out of state to take up an accountant job.
	And then she, I mean, she said she went on dates, like seeing like singular, like went on dates with guys and so on, but she just hadn't really found a great match.
	So, yeah, I'm like the first person she's talked to.
	And I would say I do have some guilt over the fact that despite the fact that I feel like I'm doing pretty well in life now, I do kind of feel bad over the fact that I've had an annulment.
	And then, meanwhile, she's stayed quite pure this whole time.
	And she knows about the annulment.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I told her about it.
	Yeah, I told her about it and, you know, that it was a mistake on my part.
	And that, you know, I took responsibility with the fact that I chose the person I annulled ultimately.
	Okay.
	So you sound like you took responsibility.
	And what virtues would you list of hers?
	So she's really reliable.
	She's really like a good car.
	What do you mean?
	Reliable.
	Like a well-maintained train.
	Well, like, you know, it's like one of the, like, she's a good communicator.
	I'll put it that way.
	So it's like, you know, like, okay, we'll meet at this time.
	And then she'll be like, okay, I'll send you my ETA of like when I'll be there.
	And then she'll show up.
	And then she'll be like, oh, I'll follow up with you later.
	And then she'll like follow up with me later.
	So it's like kind of simple stuff.
	But so she's a good communicator.
	She's a good listener.
	I don't know if being frugal is a virtue, but it's kind of something I look for now after my last marriage went haywire over that.
	She's disciplined.
	She's affectionate.
	She's analytical.
	I mean, yeah, those are the ones that come to mind quickest.
	I mean, those are practical efficiencies.
	You know, she's prompt.
	She's analytical.
	She's on time.
	She doesn't spend too much money.
	It's not the pinnacle of Christian virtue, is it?
	No, I mean, no, I'd say like the main thing is like, granted, it's only, and I feel like everybody's got a different mindset of like what's a short versus a long amount of time to like be talking to somebody.
	But like she's, she's been very respectful towards me.
	And it feels like it is a team, like she's a, she, it's a team effort.
	Like she contributes to the growth of the relationship.
	Okay.
	Sorry, that's so abstract.
	I'm losing my nutsheck.
	So, I mean, what are the primary Christian moral virtues?
	Primary Christian moral virtues.
	Haven't you been studying this since you were a kid?
	Well, I don't know.
	I mean, I guess that could also be fairly abstract as well, though.
	No, no, no.
	Christian moral virtues tend to be pretty concrete in many ways.
	What are the Christian moral virtues?
	I guess we could describe in terms of like adherence to the commandments.
	Well, but that's just saying that the virtues are adherence to virtues.
	That doesn't answer anything.
	So what are the primary Christian moral virtues that you can measure?
	Because you're asking me, how do I review the relationship?
	And if you're a Christian, then you would look for primary Christian moral virtues and measure how well she manifests them.
	Okay, I mean, well, I mean, I guess the, you know, the obvious one that we already kind of discussed is like not or like not engaging in like sexual activity outside marriage.
	That's that's one of them.
	Okay.
	And I mean, that's a virtue.
	It's a not doing something, which is fine.
	It's like me saying my big virtue is I don't steal.
	Like, it's, you know, good, but what are the positive virtues?
	Um, other positive virtues.
	Um, I'm trying to think of like a positive virtue that she's done.
	That's not something that she's doing.
	I didn't want to just give me the positive Christian moral virtues that you can measure in someone.
	Uh, so I guess one would be you know, helping helping others, especially helping others in need.
	Um, honoring your parents, that's one of them.
	Um, I mean, yeah, I guess the other ones are tough for me to think of because they're more avoiding doing something bad rather than doing something positive.
	Okay, so um, helping the less fortunate is a Christian virtue, and what does she herself do to manifest that virtue?
	Please understand.
	I'm not saying she doesn't, I'm just asking.
	Yeah, yeah, no, I no, I think that's a fair point.
	I don't, I can't think of any off the top of my head.
	Uh, like, I, you know, I don't know if she's like done charity work or anything like that, and I haven't really asked about that.
	Oh, okay.
	Now, um, what does honoring your parents mean to you?
	Um, well, I guess, yeah, we all have our own version of this, but uh, and I'm assuming you probably have a big issue with this part of the part of the Bible.
	I, I, I didn't ask you what it means to me, I asked what it means to you.
	She, she, um, she seems to live her life in a way that her parents taught her, and she's kind of grateful and um, you know,
	attributes some of the things that she's learned from her parents.
	So, she's kind of like, I guess, how she actually shows her parents in her best light, you know.
	For example, like the car that she drives a car that her and her dad built together type thing, and you know, it's kind of like the problem-solving and discipline and speaks highly of her dad for teaching her that virtue.
	So, um, I don't know if that's a good example of honoring your parents, but that's kind of how I think of it.
	It's like if you took something from your parents that was beneficial to you and you kind of bring that with you into your life.
	Okay.
	What work does she do to spread the gospel?
	Um, I don't know that she just mainly goes to church.
	I don't think she does like the, I don't, I don't know that she's done like missionary type work at all.
	It doesn't have to be missionary type work.
	I mean, she could teach Sunday school, she could do outreach somewhere in the community, she could knock door to door.
	I mean, because that's a fundamental Christian virtue, isn't it?
	To spread the gospel, yeah, evangelism, that is one.
	Um, yeah, it's tough to say, too, because I think pretty much all of her friends are also already Christians.
	So, I don't know that she's like spreading the gospel doesn't mean going to people who are already Christian.
	Yeah, yeah, okay.
	Um, um, yeah, what about um a you know, obviously the foundational thou shalt not bear false witness commitment to telling the truth no matter what?
	Um, well, this is tough for me to know because I guess if she had lied already about something, I wouldn't necessarily have proof that she lied about it.
	No, but you would get a sense of these things, and if you have no proof, we obviously, you know, we can't just make make up negatives, right?
	Yeah.
	No, I mean, she's she's been, I think she's been honest in the sense that like she tells me stuff that I well, I guess, oh, here's a here's a fair point.
	She's told me herself that she's, that she doesn't like confrontation, that she's a more like agreeable person.
	But in the kind of so far in our talking and everything, she's been pretty assertive towards me, which I've appreciated.
	For example, I think like the first time we met up, you know, I was like, oh yeah, do you want to just like drive together from this venue to this venue rather than like driving?
	Because I didn't have a car at the time when I was in that city.
	She's like, no, I mean, because it's our first date, I would appreciate it if we drove separately.
	And then, and then when she, you know, flew out to visit me, I was like, oh, yeah, do you want us to just get a hotel with two different beds?
	And she's like, can we do an Airbnb with two different rooms?
	So she's been kind of good at being assertive and stuff like that rather than just kind of going with the flow and not, you know, but objecting to it internally.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	All right.
	So there are four cardinal virtues, as you know, prudence, right, reason in action, practical wisdom about how to act well.
	And would you say that she manifests that?
	Practical wisdom on how to act well.
	I would say that, yeah.
	Justice, giving to God and neighbor what is their due, fairness and right relations.
	I would assume she does, but I haven't, I don't have too much like proof of that in person.
	Okay.
	Fortitude, courage.
	This is the big one for me.
	Firmness in pursuing good despite difficulty or fear.
	Oh.
	I can't think of a situation we've been in when she would have been afraid.
	Well, no, but she may have told you a time where she was frightened of something, but did the right thing despite the devil's handiwork.
	I don't know.
	I mean, she did the right thing despite the devil's handiwork.
	I mean, was she, oh, yeah.
	I mean, in all fairness, she never got into, I don't, she never got into like alcohol or part or like, you know, she like never tried drugs, never did anything like that, despite, you know, temptation and stuff.
	Okay.
	Does she have any, is she in pursuit of any good works in the world that she's facing resistance or have you heard of that in the past?
	Pursuing good works that she has resistance for.
	I mean, I don't, I don't, I don't think so.
	I mean, she just, you know, has a job, wants to be a stay-at-home mom.
	I mean, maybe, maybe in the sense that like there's some societal objection to like women being stay-at-home moms and like giving up a good career.
	Maybe that could be an example.
	Well, not if she wants to be a stay-at-home mom, then that's a little different.
	Okay.
	So, I mean, in general, of course, I look for moral courage, scalting honesty, nobility of character and purpose in terms of love.
	And that's what I would look for.
	Love is the reward we get for doing active good in the world.
	Like active, difficult good.
	Because when you do good, of course, you are interfering with the goals and plans of evildoers.
	If no one's offended at you, if no one's upset with you, you know, you're probably not doing any particular good.
	Right.
	And so if she says, because the purpose of Christianity to some degree is to judo move your weaknesses into strengths, right?
	This is an old C.S. Lewis argument.
	You know, if God tempts you with greed, then be more ascetic.
	If God tempts you with lust, be less lustful.
	And sorry, the devil.
	If the devil's not my point, I may have got things a little upside down there.
	But yeah, whatever the devil tempts you with, you turn towards a greater virtue.
	So if she knows that she's non-confrontational, then she needs to learn to develop her skills in this area so that she can be more confrontational and stand out for the good and the right,
	to inspire people to show the power of Jesus, to show the power of the cross, to show the power of Christianity, to appear superhuman and thus to help spread the word of God and of Christianity.
	So that would be something that I would look for.
	Now, again, I would assume that this has been talked, this is, you know, to me, Christianity 101, that you have to follow prudence, justice, fortitude, temperance, moderation or self-control, then desires and pleasure.
	Sounds like she's got that down pretty well.
	But justice and fortitude tend to be the toughest thing.
	Prudence and temperance tend to be the toughest for men.
	Justice and fortitude tend to be the toughest for women because justice means also calling out bad guys and promoting virtue and getting in trouble with the devil and his minions, right?
	And so with regards to virtue, I would look for that.
	Now, if she doesn't have that right now, it can at least be a goal or a plan, you know, that we're going to be aiming to do good in the world.
	And that's going to cause some trouble, but it's what God commands and so on, if that makes sense.
	No, no, those are some really good things.
	I guess like my follow-on question is like, some of these things would both A, be challenging to prove.
	Like, well, they'd be easy to prove over time, but they'd be kind of tough to see in person, you know, unless she's like out there with like a bullhorn and like marching and talking about like some political stuff.
	It'd be tough to see this in practice.
	And also, like, how do you kind of talk to somebody about these different topics without it coming across like some sort of, I don't know, you might disagree with this, but here's what my dating coach used to say.
	She used to say, like, you know, like it's fair to ask somebody like, you know, are you an honest person or are you fill in whatever blank?
	But she said if you do that rapid fire and you do it like too much too soon, it comes across like you're screening like an intense interview and it can kill some of the attraction.
	Like, what is your thoughts on that?
	Well, I mean, the way that I would do it if I were in your shoes is I would say, you know, here are the four cardinal virtues, prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance.
	These are the things that I pursue in my life.
	You know, here's some examples.
	But you wouldn't ask her.
	Well, what about you?
	You know, you just, you share your experience in pursuing these things and then you see what she has to say about it.
	No, yeah, that's a really good point.
	I mean, if when I kind of reflect too, like, I don't necessarily think I embody to the fullest extent, like I would never.
	Nobody embodies to the fullest extent.
	Don't weaselwood me, bro.
	Nobody embodies except Jesus, right?
	I mean, to be fair, like, I mean, like you, for example, like, I don't think I would ever have the courage to do what it is that you do online, but I'm happy to donate to you to do those things.
	Like, I don't know if that means I'm like not showing any sort of fortitude by contributing to the fight without being on the front lines myself.
	Of like, does that make sense?
	Is that fair?
	Like, if I, I don't know.
	I'm happy to support it, but I feel like my service to humanity is not necessarily like confronting the evils of the world or convincing people that the gods of the city aren't real.
	But I'm happy to donate to my philosophy.
	What does God command you to do?
	That's what it is to be a Christian, isn't it?
	Yeah.
	So what does God command you to do?
	What does Jesus command you to do?
	Well, if it, yeah, I mean, I would have to if it came up to if it was in my personal life, if I had to stand between good and evil in my personal life, then I would.
	But I guess it's like, you know, if it's like in person, like right in front of me, or if it's like what you do is you're kind of like educating the masses and kind of fighting that moral fight at a much larger scale.
	So I would say I do do that in my personal life.
	Like I have confronted like crackheads on the train and stuff that are being violent.
	So in that sense, I would say I do that pretty well.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So core kingdom life commands, repent and believe in the gospel, repent for the kingdom of heaven is near, turning from sin and trusting God's saving rule.
	Follow Jesus/slash take up your cross.
	Come follow me.
	Discipleship means prioritizing Jesus, denying yourself, and being willing to suffer for his sake.
	And you may disagree with that and all of that, but what in your life are you taking on for Jesus that causes you to suffer for his sake?
	I mean, I live in a fairly peaceful community.
	So like, I'm unapologetically Christian.
	Like I'll tell people about my faith, even if they, you know, are argumentative or like slander me or whatever.
	I'm fortunate in the sense that I don't, we don't really have the same persecution here that they might in like, say, parts of Africa.
	I have, albeit I only did it once, I mean, I have evangelized before in a, in kind of a rougher neighborhood that took a lot of courage because I didn't know how they were going to react.
	Stuff that could cause personal.
	I think that's the main thing.
	Okay.
	And another one is make disciples and teach obedience.
	Go and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
	Make disciples of all nations.
	Well, I definitely haven't done that.
	And I don't think I realistically could.
	What do you mean?
	Well, I mean, what you're referring to kind of reminds me of the stories of the 12 disciples, how after the resurrection, they went all over parts of the world and spread the gospel.
	And all but one were killed for their troubles.
	I mean, I guess I could do that, but I would have to commit that that's the only thing I'll do in life.
	Because if I was going to do kind of like that level of missionary work, that'd be, yeah, I would, that would have to be like my sole focus in life.
	Well, I don't think there's a commandment that it'd be your sole focus, but it has to be some kind of focus.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So the constant challenge of virtue is to have objective standards of virtue, which for you would come through Christianity and Jesus, and to measure your relationship to those virtues.
	Right.
	And when we love is the tribute we pay to moral admiration.
	Now you listing that she's, you know, she's nice and kind and thoughtful and and those are, those are fine.
	I mean that this i'm not saying that that's, that's necessarily a bad thing, but if you want the strongest love, it has to be moral admiration, right.
	And so if you want love, you have to say, here are my moral values, here's my gap.
	It's called the gap analysis in business.
	Right, here's my moral values, here's my virtues.
	How am I doing relative to them?
	And just being honest about it, and nobody's perfect and you know i'm not out there running down all the irrational people in the known universe and screwing a bull horn in their armpit, but I do check in, sort of with myself every day.
	Okay, here are my values.
	And how am I doing relative my values and am I promoting virtue in the world?
	Am I doing good with the short time that I have here?
	Am I thwarting evildoers and promoting virtue?
	Am I fighting the bad guys and and doing the right thing as best I can within?
	You know, obviously some limitations, because you want to do maximum virtue, which means don't get yourself killed the moment you step out your door.
	But that is the challenge and that's an incredibly exciting mission for you and your wife to be on in the long run.
	You know, we want to honor God, we want to love Jesus, we want to save souls, we want to bring people to heaven and pull them back from hell, and that's going to be an important mission for us and that's just going to.
	It's not our whole lives, but it's part of our lives.
	And if you have that commitment to pursuing virtue, even at risk, perhaps even especially at risk, then you get moral admiration, you get nobility and through that you get the most consistent love, the longest lasting love and a love that grows over time.
	Because as you work your muscles of moral courage, hopefully we all get a little bit more courageous and a little bit more forward, maybe even a little bit more confrontational, and we bring virtue truth, beauty and reason to the world.
	And if there's a better way to fall and stay in love, I can't conceive of it at all.
	No, that's a, that's a really good point and um, I I mean, I still really like Upv.
	I did read your entire book uh, Rational Proof Of Secular Ethics, and it was kind of I don't know.
	I don't.
	I'm curious what your thoughts are, but to me the UPB almost like reinforced my belief in god because um, it seemed that to get us to get a situation where a society could develop in a way that ethics could be provable inherently by the nature of how society works, would require an intelligent creator.
	I don't know if that made any sense the way I phrased that, but i'm basically saying that you know, you have this thing called society, and then up, um Is something that's provable with the way that society runs.
	And not only is it provable, but it brings about well-being and like good outcomes.
	And the fact that you could prove that objectively to me prove that there was an intelligent moral designer.
	I'm not going to argue with anybody who's a fan of UPB.
	We have a different methodology.
	But more specific to building a life of love is building a life of moral admiration.
	I mean, one of the things that we would love about Jesus is his absolute steadfast dedication to truth and virtue in the face of obviously utterly overwhelming opposition.
	Now, I'm not saying we've all got to go get ourselves nailed up, but having that aspect in your life, having that lodestar, that North Star that you can guide yourself by.
	What are the goods?
	What are the good that I can do in the world?
	What is the good I can do in the world and how am I doing relative to that?
	And not from a self-critical standpoint, but just from an encouragement standpoint.
	You know, if you want to lose weight, you say, okay, here's my goal.
	Weight, measure yourself.
	How am I doing relative to that?
	What can I do to tweak and adjust?
	And so on.
	You can't achieve goals without a plan.
	And I would strongly urge everyone, Christians, secularists, whatever, I would strongly urge everyone to do a gap analysis of your virtues and values and your current actions and try to close the gap.
	Imperfectly, haltingly, staggeringly, as I think we all do, but just try to close that gap.
	If you're working to close that gap and you're doing good in the world, you can stand tall in the face of your children's questions.
	If the world gets better, fantastic.
	If the world gets worse, your conscience is clear.
	And for you, if there's a better way to get to heaven than to saying, what are the virtues?
	How can I pursue them?
	I would like to hear it.
	No, I think that's, I think you gave me some really practical advice on things to focus on in the coming months, I guess, as I keep talking to this person I'm talking to.
	Well, and have a plan, and I've got another caller here, but have a plan by which you're going to end up at the same place because, you know, before you know it, you're pushing 30 and she's older.
	And long-distance relationships can't grow because there's too little reality in them.
	They're not totally unreal, but you're not dealing with day-to-day.
	You're not seeing each other a lot.
	And it's like watching every 10th or 20th frame of a movie.
	It's just kind of herky jerky and a bit bewildering.
	And you get together in this fun affection and cuddles and all that kind of stuff, but you don't deal with more of the everyday.
	And because when you're in a long-distance relationship, you can't fight or you can't have conflict because she's like, we spent so little time together.
	Let's make sure we get along.
	And then you may not learn how the other person handles conflict.
	You've got to have a conversation about how do we handle it?
	How do we handle conflict?
	We're going to move forward.
	Maybe we get married.
	How do we handle conflict?
	How are we going to deal with conflict?
	What are your opinions on the strictness of your parents versus how you're going to parent?
	Do you think they were too strict?
	How would you adjust it?
	What does that mean?
	Because you're negotiating on behalf of your future children.
	It's really marriage is really not about you and it's not about your wife.
	It's about your future children.
	So what you want to do is you want to choose the best mother for your future children.
	Now, that doesn't mean that she agrees with you everything right away because, you know, there's negotiation and, you know, she may obviously have, I'm sure she will have things that are of value that she wants to bring to the table that you haven't heard before that you find to be great.
	But you are negotiating on behalf of your future children and you're negotiating on behalf of your future married self.
	How are we going to resolve disputes?
	Well, no shouting, no name-calling.
	We got to listen.
	No storming out, no self-pity.
	Like, you know, I mean, well, you may have tendencies to these things, but at least have a rule.
	How do we resolve disputes?
	It has to be peace, curiosity, reason, and not holding to a position out of vanity, right?
	Because humility is a foundational Christian ethic.
	And that means that you don't assume that you're right when you're in a conflict.
	Humility means being very, very open to the possibility that you're completely wrong.
	And that's how you reduce escalations in conflicts.
	There's a lot of great values and virtues there.
	But you got to have serious conversations because what happens is, as you know, step by step, you just end up in a relationship.
	And then you're kind of committed and other people have gone by.
	And, you know, six months have gone by, a year has gone by.
	It's still kind of long distance.
	You still haven't dealt with some of the basics.
	And then you're just kind of in.
	You're just kind of in.
	And then getting out is really tough.
	And it's, and then, and then you want to avoid conflict or avoid any foundational discussions for fear that you aren't compatible or something like that.
	So if you like each other and you're looking for a life together at some point, and two months is totally fine.
	Two months is totally fine.
	It's totally valid.
	Then have those conversations.
	And if you have the vows before the vows, the vows really mean something, right?
	If you say, look, how are we going to resolve conflict?
	Well, we're not going to name call.
	We're not going to escalate.
	We're not going to yell.
	We're not going to storm out.
	We're going to sit there and, you know, peacefully and curiously and with empathy reason together until we find a solution that works for us both.
	I mean, it's obviously the best way to resolve disputes, I think.
	You have those commitments, then you can move forward with trust.
	And without that, you're just kind of moving forward like you're on a train, not knowing where you're going.
	No, that's really good advice.
	I appreciate it.
	All right.
	Well, I hope you'll keep me posted about how it's going.
	It's delightful to hear from you again.
	My very, very best going forward.
	And thank you for the call.
	All right.
	We have a caller, Emo.
	If you wanted to unmute, I'm all with the ears.
	Oh, thank you, Stefan.
	How are you?
	I'm well.
	How are you doing?
	I'm doing all right.
	I have my ups and downs, but hang in there.
	Okay.
	Here's the part where you ask a question or make a comment.
	All right.
	A question or a comment?
	I don't look at God as benevolent.
	Sorry, have you called in before?
	Maybe on a different account.
	Okay.
	I didn't ask the account if it had called in before.
	Have you called in before?
	Because your voice sounds very familiar.
	Yeah, I have many different accounts.
	And I think a few of them might have blocked.
	So why did I block you?
	Different reasons.
	One of them, it didn't seem as serious.
	Another one, I honestly don't know.
	All right.
	Yeah, I'm not sure what you mean by didn't seem as serious.
	I just did some comedy routines at the beginning.
	No, Hang on.
	Hang on.
	When I'm talking, what happens?
	All right.
	I let you finish speaking.
	That's right.
	Do you remember that from the last time you called in?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So don't do that.
	I mean, that's the price of being in a conversation, right?
	Which is let the other person finish talking unless they're saying something totally wrong.
	So if you say, well, Steph, I don't know why you banned me, except maybe I wasn't serious enough when the first caller and I were laughing about comedy routines.
	I don't think that not being serious enough is a reason.
	So why else do you think you were blocked?
	Oh, yeah.
	So my other account, it was called Tyrone.
	It was like average black guy.
	And I said something about raping white women.
	And I was like, oh, yeah, this goes back to another thing.
	I kind of had on my mind.
	I noticed it's more socially acceptable for black guys to commit rape than it is for a white guy to like look at a woman too long, though.
	All right.
	That's delightful.
	I'm just saying, like, I don't know why.
	Why do people, why do they do that?
	It's just so wild for me.
	I mean, how sad and lonely do you have to be to have an open conversation to talk about virtues, values, morals, and ideals, and then to pull that sort of silly nonsense?
	I don't know why, why people do that?
	I mean, it's very sad, and this is a very isolated person, and it's going to continue that way, and it probably should.
	All right.
	Let's take a last caller here.
	If you want to unmute person whose name starts with F going once, going twice.
	Hello, hello.
	Sorry, let me just get the actual name here.
	Reading glasses, engaged.
	Yes.
	You're Fry.
	Thanks for taking my call, sir.
	My pleasure.
	I have an upcoming call with you, and I was just phoning ahead to see what I can do beforehand to maximize our time.
	All right.
	I noticed a public call or a private call.
	It will be a public call.
	And when is it coming up?
	I am curious.
	All right.
	Are you still with me?
	Yeah, I guess we're lost in.
	All right.
	Well, I guess we'll talk about it in the call.
	Freedomaine.com slash donate.
	Thank you so much for a lovely set of calls, minus 1.1 tonight.
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	Please share that link and get people to engage with the AIs to listen to the Spanish version and so on.
	Will, no, absolutely not.
	All right.
	Have yourself a great night, everyone.
	Thanks, Abel.
	Bye.

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