March 17, 2026 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
02:33:36
Falling Away from GOD! X Space
Stefan Molyneux argues Christianity failed its core mandate to protect children after two millennia, citing his sixteen years of abuse and the silence of neighbors who ignored violence despite knowing Jesus's command to help the wounded. He contends that offering eternal rewards without intervening in child abuse is hypocritical, while callers describe how religious communities often reward abusers and demand forgiveness without restitution. Ultimately, Molyneux asserts that unrepentant evildoers cannot be loved when they perpetuate cycles of violence, suggesting the faith's refusal to hold parents accountable has driven many away from God. [Automatically generated summary]
Good morning, good morning, good morning, my friends.
I hope you are doing wonderfully.
I hope you know of the game Anomia.
So I'm certainly, certainly, certainly happy to chat, converse, debate, argue, ah, even fight.
But I have some thoughts this morning.
But again, it's a call-in show.
So if you want to chat, just raise your hand.
But I suppose I'm embroiled in a bit of a debate on X about the general theory of the decline of the West and its relationship to Christianity.
And I was thinking about my own general journey away from religion.
And I wanted to talk about this, give you my thoughts, get your thoughts perhaps if you've had a similar journey, or perhaps the opposite journey.
I do know that a lot of listeners to what I do have moved towards religion rather than away, often for reasons of marriage or community, which I understand, I get.
But I did want to talk about the general theory that seems to be out there that the reason the West has fallen is because, or the reason the West is failing or fading, is because it is a punishment for turning away from Jesus.
It is a punishment for turning away from Christianity.
And that's an interesting hypothesis.
And there's nothing wrong, of course, with putting it forward as a hypothesis.
We do allow for ourselves some hypotheses.
But I have a little bit of pushback on that as a whole.
All right, looks like everyone's in a listening mood this morning, which is totally fine with me.
All right.
So let's get into it.
Why did I fall away from religion?
My father was an agnostic for a good chunk of his life, became very religious later on in life.
So I wouldn't say that had much effect.
And my father I met maybe once every year or two.
I spent time with him in Africa when I was six.
And then I spent time in Africa again when I was 15, I think.
I used to think it was 16, but then thinking back on it, I spent a summer in Newfoundland with a colleague of his who was a marine biologist.
And I would meet him in Ireland from time to time when I would go to Athlone to visit my aunts who lived out there.
I had an aunt who lived in England.
I had another aunt, or two aunts who lived in Ireland.
And I very vividly, one of my early, really vivid memories of nature was being a toddler and crossing over from England to Ireland on the North Sea and just these big, boiling, giant, mountainous waves of ugly ocean.
Now, my aunts were very religious, particularly the one who lived in England.
Very religious.
So I got a lot of exposure to religion.
My mother was not religious, to my knowledge.
I would not say I ever had detailed discussions about religion with my mother.
I do remember her at times mentioning what she perceived of as the essential differences between Judaism and Christianity.
But I don't remember her talking about religion, and we certainly never went to church.
Now, I was in boarding school for two years, and it wasn't just the school year.
I remember one of the saddest, most depressing times in my childhood, at least away from home, was for some reason, myself and two or three other boys and one teacher spent Christmas huddled in a corner of the cafe.
Christmas and New Year's.
It's the saddest thing.
If you could laugh now, it's like, I mean, it's over 50 years ago now, so it's not quite as sad and tragic.
Time heels, these sorts of things.
But I remember, for some reason, staying at Christmas and New Year's at the boarding school, which was built for over 500 boys, and there were two or three of us plus one very depressed teacher.
So at boarding school, though, where I spent, of course, two years, six, ages six to eight, we went to church, if I remember rightly, at least twice a week, and got a lot of religious instruction.
There was Sunday school as well.
I got my own Bible.
I still vividly remember all of the pictures in the Bible.
And I wouldn't say at that time that I believed.
I was in a state of suspended animation.
I was in a state of wait and see.
And I was not opposed to it.
I would not say I openly and fervently believed, but I was certainly willing to hear the case, and I found it all very interesting.
It did feel very foreign to me.
I will tell you that.
I mean, looking at the pictures of guys in robes in the Middle East, I remember there was one vivid color portrait of Daniel in the lion's den.
And I do remember getting a sense of the enormous foreignness of Christianity to everything else in my life.
And there was a part of me that was looking at these Middle Eastern people in an unimaginably foreign landscape, dealing with magic and miracles.
And I lived in the fairly eternally damp summer comes on a Wednesday, British fog bank, and nobody around me was dressed anything like these Middle Eastern people from thousands of years ago in a Dungeons and Dragons style landscape of magic, miracles, and potentially, of course, madness.
So, I was in a state of suspended animation with regards to religion for most of my childhood.
There was a fellow, we played Dungeons and Dragons.
I played from about the age of, Let's see, maybe 14, from about 14 to 16, we played a lot of Dungeons and Dragons, and it was a blast, and I highly recommend it for imagination and jokes and memorization and strategy.
It's a very good game.
And there was a fellow who was a strong Christian who played with us, but he never tried to talk to us or convert us.
There was a fellow I worked with, actually went to my high school as well.
Gosh, I still remember people's names.
I can't remember where I left my keys, but I can remember the names that people had arguments with 40 plus years ago.
And he was telling me all about the mathematical improbability of life developing on its own.
And I was open to that.
I was working, I was maybe 17 when I was working at the place I was chatting with this fellow.
And he went through all the math, and I was open to that argument too.
It's very interesting.
And I brought it to my friends, and they just rolled their eyes and said, yeah, but it didn't happen that way.
Doesn't matter what the math is.
Didn't happen that way.
And I remember being kind of disappointed at my obviously agnostic atheist friends who weren't even willing to look at the numbers because it seemed significant.
You know, whether they were right or wrong, I couldn't tell at the time.
It's not like you had AI back then to check things out, but it certainly was an interesting argument.
And then when I worked in a weed tent up north in the winter for months, I read the Bible cover to cover.
It just seemed like an important thing to do.
And it was a slog at times, of course, a whole lot of big ass and some improbable Methuselah-style age ranges, but I was open and I found it very interesting to read.
It's kind of interesting because you read the Bible in a way like you read Shakespeare and you're like, oh, this is where that saying comes from, or this is where that idea comes from.
And it's interesting and revelatory in its own way.
So I was in a state of waiting.
I did read a book a friend gave me called Atheism, The Case Against God, which was a very interesting book and well argued, some of the arguments I remember and still use to this day.
And I did have a bit of a suspicion, though, that atheism was more of a teardown than a build-up.
Also, if you want to have any doubts about the morality of atheists, try spending some time in an atheist community and see how moral, how honest, how loyal, how empathetic, how virtuous the atheists are.
And also, ask yourself, if you spent any time around atheist communities, ask yourself how generous they are and how communal or community-based they are.
I've known of Christian groups that after a storm go and clear parks, go and help old people get the branches off their backyards.
I've known of Christian groups that organize food drives for the hungry and make sure that people who are ill and old and alone, or just ill and alone, have some sort of company, some sort of community, and they get involved.
They get involved.
Atheism for a lot of people does seem to be largely founded around a hungry relief from all generic social initiatives and obligations.
That atheists like to read their books, they like to play their video games, they like to argue online.
But as far as healing, isolation, hunger, thirst, wanted need in the community, not so much.
Not so much.
And Christians tend to be very generous with the time and money, and they tend to organize for the betterment of the community.
And those are real things.
those are real virtues.
Suspended Animation Among Neighbors00:06:39
And I'll tell you what was going through my mind at a deeper level, I think, than I really understood at the time.
Was, and I'll just touch on this stuff briefly because Lord knows I've talked about it over the last 21 years in public.
But my childhood was extraordinarily violent and abusive and crazy.
Not just.
My mother was not sadistic, but she was just absolutely chaotic and impulsive and violent.
And the one thing that gave me a, I wouldn't even say cynical, a skeptical view of the self-proclaimed virtues of society was that it's one thing if you're abused on some distant farm in the middle of nowhere and you're homeschooled and nobody knows you from Adam and you're kind of lost to the bears of the trees or the woods and the undergrowth.
But this was not the case in my family.
We lived in Crystal Palace or near Crystal Palace.
At least that was our football team.
In England, we lived in apartment buildings with paper-thin walls.
There was a house in my family way back in the day, but that house was sold during the divorce from my parents.
My parents separated, I think, when I was about six months old or something like that.
You can actually see in the baby photos when I go from relatively cheery to, well, not quite so much.
So we were always in these little apartment buildings.
Well, some of them not so little, but we were always in these little apartment buildings, surrounded by people.
And I knew they could hear what happened in my apartment because I could hear what happened in their apartment.
And I was surrounded by Christians.
This is before the giant waves of immigration that happened starting in the mid-late 70s.
So I was surrounded by Christians.
And we said the Lord's Prayer every morning in school.
And all the teachers were Christians.
And Christians prayed.
This is why I was in a state of suspended animation, I think.
I'm certainly happy to hear other theories, but this is what I think.
Because all the Christians were praying for wisdom, for guidance, and they said, Lord, help me identify and oppose evil.
It's you know, part of the central Christian ethos.
Help me identify and oppose evil, immorality, corruption.
And this is why it was foundationally confusing for me.
And I say this not in any sophist way, like just in a deeply honest, open and vulnerable way, just seriously confusing.
And when I was surrounded by people who had access to the divine and could hear what was going on in my apartment when I was a kid.
and this was everywhere that we moved.
We lived in apartments in England.
I took entrance exams to a school in Scotland where we stayed for a while.
We moved to Canada.
We lived in a variety of places.
And it was always the same.
Everyone could hear the evils that were occurring, and no one did anything.
No one knocked on the door.
No one asked if everything was okay.
No one asked what was happening.
Nobody made one anonymous phone call to the police saying, I think there's a child being harmed next door.
My mother was a real screamer.
So this was not shh, don't say anything.
It wasn't anything like that.
My mother full-throated Klingon forehead screaming.
And no one did anything.
And that's a wild thing.
This was true among all of my friends' parents.
This was true among the teachers.
This was true among the priests.
This was true among the neighbors.
My mother did call the police on me once because I was fighting back.
And the police did not ask me what was going on in the household.
They didn't get anyone else to come and help me.
I got a long lecture on the difficulties of generation gaps.
Your mother's from a different generation.
There are generation gaps.
The hell.
Good job, government.
And I have always had a brain that puzzles to put things together.
You know, there's this kind of cliché on the internet.
Tommy Robinson used it this morning.
Make it make sense.
Make it make sense.
How can this be?
How can this be?
Society in Suspended Revulsion00:02:26
How can these immense evils that hundreds and hundreds of people know about be entirely unspoken, unchallenged, unremarked upon, unexposed, undealt with?
And I was with society in a state of suspended revulsion.
There has to be an answer because Christians have a very special responsibility to fight evil in the world because they claim to have a special relationship with God who will inform them of important things,
particularly moral actions, events, possibilities, or occurrences.
And so, Christians, all those all around me, would pray on their knees, by their beds.
listening to my mother scream and the whacks of fists on childish flesh.
And they would say, Jesus, God, Lord above, help guide me, whack, whack, scream, scream, help guide me towards virtue.
Whack, whack, scream, scream.
The thuds of heads or shoulders into walls.
Whack, whack, scream, scream.
Oh, Lord above, please, help guide me to do good in this world.
Whack, whack, scream, scream.
honestly, honestly, utterly incomprehensible.
Unsolvable Murder on Camera00:03:18
It literally is like a policeman saying he cannot solve a murder that was recorded on his body camera.
Well, all I want to do is make society safer, whack, whack, stab, stab, scream, scream.
All I want to do is prevent crime and murder and do the right thing and protect the people.
It's all recorded on the body cam, and the policeman just walks off whistling, maybe to find somebody who's double-parked, or a policeman who has eight perfect fingerprints and wants to solve a murder and has access to.
a database of all who have been fingerprinted, but refuses to run the fingers against the database, or refuses to arrest, or refuses to prosecute, or whatever it is, right?
You got eight perfect fingerprints from a known criminal.
Why wouldn't you arrest that person or do anything or lift a finger?
It's the Epstein question, right?
I mean, we generally know the answer to the Epstein question.
But a policeman's got eight perfect fingerprints and doesn't arrest anyone or say anything, why would that be?
It's incomprehensible for me as a child.
And I'm in a state of what the living heck is going on.
Now, maybe the policeman chooses not to run the fingerprints against the database of fingerprints, identify the criminal.
I said known criminal earlier, not because somebody saw him and there was eyewitnesses, but let's just say who you think it might be is a known criminal, but they're not, which means they'd be in the database.
All you have to do is run the prince.
And then you get the match, and you could definitively put the criminal at the crime scene and bingo bango bongo.
You certainly have your opportunity.
You find the gun on him, you've got the means, he owes you money, you've got the motive, motive means opportunity.
closed case.
So why would a policeman, whose entire job it is to catch bad guys, not run the prints found at a crime scene against the database?
Or maybe he ran them and it told him it's Joe Bad Guy, but for some reason nothing happens.
Pouring Resources to Help00:11:06
It's the Fauci lying to Congress conundrum.
And it doesn't matter if it's the Biden's or the Pambondi who's in, doesn't matter.
Prosecutions don't happen.
It is an abiding mystery.
Because not only did all the Christians who surround me hear the evils that were occurring, but they also would pray to God and say, God, what can I do to make the world a better place?
And of course, Christianity says we fight against evils in the world.
That is the job.
That is the goal.
Make no compromise with evil.
Whatever you do to the little children, so do you also do to God.
My mother was assaulting Jesus in that hellscape apartment in London.
Because if, as a Christian, you say, I have access to omniscience, I have access to God who knows everything, and God will guide me in the right way.
then why did not God say to any of the hundreds and hundreds of people, maybe more, who knew about all of this, maybe make an anonymous phone call because those kids are getting assaulted next door.
You know, honestly, anonymous phone call.
She won't even know who did it.
And get that kid some help.
Now, either, if we accept the Christian paradigm, either people prayed to God and God didn't tell them to do that, in which case God is not moral, or people prayed to God who told them, knock on the door, make a phone call, but they didn't listen,
in which case, I don't understand Christianity, genuinely don't understand Christianity.
Because if you are threatened with hell for doing bad things, and the parable of the Good Samaritan, ah, amazing, amazing story.
Guy's wounded in a ditch, you stop to help him, you bind his wounds, you make him better, right?
Parable of the Good Samaritan.
You are obligated to help those who are hurt.
You must, you know, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless.
You must help those in need.
It's not optional.
It's not a if you feel like it, you must help those in need.
And I remember having a priest in boarding school tell us all about the Good Samaritan.
And again, being, you know, I obviously wasn't old enough to make these kinds of connections in any foundational way, but just being kind of in wonder, how could this occur?
How could this be?
That people talk about helping those who are hurt and wounded and not help any victims of child abuse.
I mean, for those of you who don't know who aren't Christians, I think it's kind of important.
The parable of the Good Samaritan.
One of Jesus' most famous teachings found in the Bible in Luke 10, 25 to 37.
An expert in the Jewish law, who's a lawyer, tests Jesus by asking, Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?
Jesus directs him to the law, and the man correctly quotes the two greatest commandments, to love God fully and love your neighbor as yourself.
That's from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19, 18.
When the lawyer seeks to justify himself by asking, and who is my neighbor?
You say, I must love my neighbor.
Who is my neighbor?
What is defined as my neighbor?
What is the definition of neighbor?
Trying to limit who he must love, Jesus responds with this parable.
A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, where he was attacked by robbers.
They stripped him of his clothes, beat him, and went away, leaving him half dead.
A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side.
So too a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.
But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was, and when he saw him, he took pity on him.
He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine.
Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper.
Look after him, he said, and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.
And then the lawyer says, Well, which of these sorry, then Jesus says, Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?
The expert in the law replied, The one who had mercy on him.
Jesus told him, Go and do like wise.
Now, I mean, obviously, back in the day, like 2,000 plus years ago, the power of this in many ways is that Jews and Samaritans kind of hated each other for reasons of ethnic hostility, religious hostility, historical enity.
Samaritans were viewed by a lot of Jews as heretics, outsiders.
They had mixed heritage, different worship practices.
The priest and Levites, suspected religious figures who might have had ritual purity concerns, ignore the injured man.
The shocking hero is the Samaritan who's the enemy or the outsider who shows extravagant compassion.
He risks danger, uses his own resources, and commits to ongoing care.
I mean, we even have good Samaritan laws, right?
Protecting those who help in emergencies and so on.
So you must pour resources, right?
This is one of the central pillars and the actionable, practical pillar of Christianity.
You have to pour resources and help and endanger yourself, even for those you're supposed to hate.
Now, of course, I was a pretty nice kid, didn't get into any particular trouble.
Maybe my early teens a little, but certainly not in England.
I left when I was 11.
Now, love God and love your neighbor.
It's the two central pillars of Christianity.
Love God is obviously nice, but it's not empirical.
Anyone can walk around saying they love God.
What is empirical, what is practical, what is useful, what is tangible, is help the wounded.
Help the wounded.
And the parable is: even someone you view with deep enity and you've been trained to hate because of ethnic hostilities, religious hostilities, worship hostilities, historical hostilities, you must endanger yourself because the robbers could still be around.
The robbers might leave someone wounded so that somebody else comes to help them, rob them too.
And I will try to control my bubbling outrage.
I don't want to blast your ears.
I won't scream, but it's there.
Protect the innocent.
Love your enemies.
Pour your resources and endanger yourself to help those, even that you have been trained and taught, to hate.
And that is the measurable external impact of your internal dedication to loving God.
There's the theory and there is the practice.
The theory is love God.
The practice is love your neighbor as yourself of your own resources.
he didn't run to the government and have the government use force to transfer income, to buy votes, to whatever it is, right?
And loving your neighbor, even though he may be a historical enemy, you've been taught to hate.
is the only tangible way by which your faith can be measured.
Measuring Hearts by Actions00:02:11
If I say, I'm an expert in diet and I'm 300 pounds, people won't believe that I'm an expert in diet.
There's not one fat fitness influencer that I know of, unless they're on a journey, a health journey.
I cannot read people's minds.
As a child, certainly not.
As an adult, certainly not.
We cannot.
All we have to see into the hearts and minds of mankind are their practical and tangible actions.
They're practical and tangible actions.
I have no other conceivable way by which to measure.
I see we have some callers.
I'll get to you in a bit.
Thank you for your patience.
I have only people's actions to measure their hearts and minds.
It's an odd thought.
I have it occasionally.
There's a fairly mediocre movie called What's Eating Gilbert Grape with Johnny Depp and a very young Leonardo DiCaprio, who plays a mentally challenged boy or young man and does a fantastic job.
And it has struck me on occasion that someone could go through their whole life just faking that for whatever reason.
They're a really good actor, they could just fake being mentally challenged for their whole life.
And Excel do the scans and it all seems fine, but the brain is a mysterious organ, and they could just spend their whole lives, you know, reading comfortably in private and then pretending to be mentally challenged when someone comes around.
Beautiful Cathedrals and Confusion00:05:24
And I'm sure there have been people who've done that.
And would he be mentally challenged?
Well, everyone would say yes.
Yes, of course.
He does this on tests, he does this in person, he does this whenever I'm around him.
I mean, if you put cameras in his room, he'd have to keep the act up the whole time.
I would say, yes, he's mentally challenged.
Because we can't see into his heart and mind.
The only tangible evidence I had of people's commitment And faith was their willingness to help those in need.
And so I was faced with a great mystery, a great deep and abiding mystery.
And this is not philosophical.
I'm just talking personally.
The confusion I had as a child and as a young man.
I mean, I would stand at the base of a cathedral.
Beautiful cathedrals in England.
I mean, there were, I guess, some of them had been burnt down.
Beautiful cathedrals in England.
And I'd stand at the base of these cathedrals and I would look up and I would be like, I am filled with incomprehension that people would for a hundred years break their backs to build this beautiful cathedral out of a love of God, and Jesus commands them to help the wounded.
And they won't make an anonymous phone call to help a child being beaten, dangerously beaten.
I had to go limp sometimes for fear of head injuries.
Incomprehensible.
And I don't mean this in any isn't hating on Christians or anything like that.
I'm just telling you this is a crazy mystery that was going on in my mind and heart.
What the living heck is going on?
My aunts knew my mother.
They knew her.
They were at the wedding.
They heard all about her from my father.
They knew that she was dangerously crazy.
And I say this again with some sympathy towards my mother, because she suffered a whole lot more than I did as a child, when she was a child.
One could argue almost infinitely more as the hard-eyed raping Russians poured across Germany.
The Mongols, it seemed, almost, reenacting the Genghis Khan rape-a-thon of centuries past on the helpless and destroyed female German population.
Incomprehensible.
There was a church at the boarding school, large, imposing structure, which had been built brick by brick, hand by hand.
Stained glass on the windows, massive skill, hot glass, sweaty brows, exquisite colours, poured, iron webbed, raised, maintained, cleaned, all that work for the love of God.
And not one phone call to help a beaten child.
Not one question from the most religious women I knew and their husbands who seemed to be not quite as religious but still pretty religious.
Not one question.
Hey, Steph, how are you doing?
When my brother went to England, I was 12, he went to England for a couple of years, and it was just myself and my mother.
I got not one letter from my very Christian aunts.
Not one phone call.
He was gone for a couple of years.
It was just myself and my mother, and this is when she really fell apart.
Yeah.
Yeah, this is when she wouldn't get out of bed and ended up being institutionalized.
I would make her a cup of tea in the morning.
I'd go to school.
I'd come home at lunch.
The tea would be untouched.
I'd ask her if she wanted anything.
She wouldn't reply.
I'd just stare at the wall.
I'd make her another cup of tea and some toast.
Threatening Eternal Torment00:14:58
And it was bad.
I didn't know what to do.
I'm like, I'm 12, right?
Just try and keep feeding and watering her like some potty plant.
Yeah, my brother was gone, scooped up to a much more functional and healthy family, although the siblings fought like cats and dogs, but nothing.
I was just left behind.
Christians. Christians. Christians.
And we would say the Lord's Prayer.
Deliver us from evil.
Do good, deliver us from evil.
Okay, where's this deliverance coming from?
Jesus says, put yourself in physical danger and spend half your money to help someone you're taught to hate.
And that is how you get eternal life.
And that's the big challenge.
Philosophy cannot offer you eternal life.
I can't offer you eternity in paradise.
I can't threaten you, thank God.
I can't threaten you with an eternity of torment.
I can offer you honesty.
I can offer you integrity.
I can offer you exciting levels of danger at times, because the too good is to fight evil, and evil gets their say too.
I can offer you the only path to being loved, which is virtue.
I can offer you a good conscience, but I cannot offer you eternal life.
I cannot offer you eternal life.
And I cannot threaten you with eternal torment.
And so this is the incomprehensible thing to me.
So eternal life in bliss is better than winning a hundred million dollars or pounds back in the day.
Better, right?
Infinitely better, because it's eternal bliss, life, and happiness.
Now, this is the odd thing to me.
When I was a kid, there were teenagers and even young adults who would come over and would say, Hey, do you have any pop bottles?
Because you could take them back and get a refund of a penny or two.
I thought they just gave you money, but it turns out you put the deposit and it comes back.
And Teenagers or young men, it was always men, would come by and ask for, do you have any pot bottles?
We'll take them off your hands.
And they would take them and they would get some money.
I mean, it wasn't much money, but it was some money.
And I remember thinking, wow, so people will work for an hour or two to get maybe 20 pence.
So I'll do that.
They'll knock on doors, they'll go, and all they get is 20 pennies, or 50 pennies, or whatever they get.
not much.
And so people will do labor, spend hours for a relatively small amount of money, and yet they won't pick up the phone and call the authorities when a child is being beaten within earshot.
though it is required for them to do that to receive eternal life and bliss.
Did you see that, like, the genuine confusion?
Like, if someone had knocked on my neighbor's door, bonk, bunk, bunk, said, Hey, mate.
Hey, make one phone call, and I'll give you 10 million pounds.
Just make one anonymous.
All you have to do is you hear that kid getting beaten next door, just make a phone call.
Here's the number.
Just call.
I wish to make an anonymous report, child abuse, child assault, violence, blah, blah, blah, and I'll give you 10 million pounds.
Sure.
I mean, people will spend hours of work to get 20 pennies.
So, or if somebody had said, I'll give you 10 pounds.
Couple of pints.
I'll give you 10 pounds.
Just make this phone call.
People would be like, 10 pounds?
Sounds good.
Sounds good.
Now, what am I to make of this when Jesus commands Christians to protect the wounded at considerable personal danger and expense?
And that is absolutely required to receive eternal life.
That's not optional.
The reward is eternal life, and I assume the punishment for those who believe in hell is eternal torment.
And I know that people are motivated by very small amounts of money, but people, hundreds of Christians in different countries.
I lived in Africa.
I lived in England, lived briefly in Scotland, spent lots of time in Ireland, lived in Canada.
Nothing.
I've now been public about what I suffered as a child for 21 years.
And how many Christians have contacted me to say, you know what?
You have actually showed an empirical problem in Christianity.
You're right.
Of course I'm right.
I know I'm right.
I mean, Christians don't seem to listen to Jesus.
why would they listen to me?
They were commanded to make those phone calls or to knock on the door.
They were commanded to.
Commanded.
I don't remember the priest saying at boarding school when I was stuck at boarding school, Hey, um, why aren't you going home for Christmas and New Year's?
That's odd.
Is everything all right at home?
I mean, according to the parable of the Good Samaritan, I am supposed to expend considerable money, time, energy, effort, and resources to help you out, even if it were dangerous to me.
Even if I had to gather your body from a battlefield, I would be commanded to do it.
No.
In fact, the priest presided over a boarding school where the children, including myself, were caned.
So it's puzzling.
Like, I'm just telling you, honestly, openly, deeply, foundationally puzzling.
That the greatest threats and the greatest bribes in the known universe can't move any of the Christians I knew, couldn't move them to make one anonymous phone call.
Now, people could say, ah, yes, well, but you know, the government wouldn't have been able to help that much.
It's like, that doesn't matter.
That doesn't matter because everyone in society at the time believed that the government was good, necessary, and helpful.
So, from an objectivist or an anarcho-capitalist standpoint, there are limitations and problems, but that's not what they believed.
So, if they prayed to God for guidance and God said, Whatever you do, do nothing.
Listen, I obviously can hear that kid being beaten next door.
Don't do anything.
Just listen, just don't lift a finger.
Don't knock on the door, don't make a phone call.
Don't slip a note of comfort.
Don't ask that kid when you see him around how things are going.
Don't do anything.
Whatever you do, don't do anything to somebody who's being beaten.
It's like, but the parable of the Good Samaritan, Jesus gives us an example of what you must do.
You must love God.
Love thy neighbor.
I literally was the neighbor.
Now, people can say all of the ever-loving nonsense they want.
Who are you going to believe?
Me or your lying eyes, right?
They can say all of the nonsense that they want.
these are the indisputable facts of my existence, the indisputable facts of my existence.
And it has been going on in my life for almost 60 years.
You say, ah, well, you know, things were different back then, really?
Okay, well, um, What has happened since?
How many Christians have said, oh, you know what, that was a pretty big failure, and it is pretty widespread, and we need to recommit the church and its teachings to the protection of the assaulted.
We need to rededicate ourselves to the Good Samaritan.
We've kind of lost track of that.
Thank you for the reminder.
We really appreciate it.
Do you know?
I mean, I would have respected that enormously.
Look, nobody has to be perfect.
Everybody drifts from perfection.
We all make mistakes.
I get all of that.
But nothing.
Nothing.
I don't think I'm checking my inbox for anything now because it's been well north of half a century and 21 years as a public figure.
But can you imagine if a priest, if a priest were to email me and say, you've made an absolutely ironclad case that we are failing the parable of the Samaritan, which was one of the most important lessons Jesus ever taught.
Arguably, it is the most important empirical lesson that Jesus ever taught.
What is the outward manifestation of a belief?
It is actions consistent with that belief.
If I say quitting smoking is super important and I'm an expert at quitting smoking, I should not be a smoker.
Because if you want to spread Christianity, then you need to be morally admirable and you need to have outward actions consistent with your inward belief.
If I want to sell my diet and exercise program, I should not be shaped like a pear.
If I don't care about my diet and exercise program, I will discredit it by trying to sell it while being fat without any muscles.
not like Norwegian weightlifter thick, but just fat and soft.
And also it's true.
I'm sure there are people from my youth, teenage years, young adult life who listen to the show or know of me.
And since I talk about it from time to time, are aware how many people from my past have said, oh, you know what?
I think we did kind of miss the ball there.
Sorry.
I mean, it was nice and it was interesting that the Christians that I knew when I was younger told me about the mathematical improbability of evolution.
Yeah, that's not really the thing, though.
The thing is, put yourself in danger and risk half your resources or more, right?
Jesus said, sell everything you own, give the money to the poor to follow me and follow me.
So the mathematical blah, blah, blah of evolution and blah, blah, blah, kind of not relevant.
Jesus didn't say in the parable of a good Samaritan, Well, but you see someone naked, bleeding and dying in a ditch, you should lecture them on mathematical probabilities.
The Samaritan Lying in the Ditch00:03:39
Nope.
Nope.
So when I say that Christianity has failed, I mean, of course, in its protection of the West and so on, but it comes from quite a personal place.
Imagine a priest, sorry, I left that thread go.
Imagine a priest emailed me and said, Steph, I know you're not a believer.
I know you're friendly towards Christianity, which, you know, in many ways I am.
You know, I read peaceful parenting, and the Samaritans are our children because they are also helpless and beaten.
The Samaritans, the Samaritan, are victims of child abuse.
So, Steph, I know you're not a big believer, but I would really make very compelling cases as to what Christians need to do according to the teachings of the Bible.
You make a very compelling case as to what Christians have to do.
I really want you to come and give a speech at my church putting all this together.
A speech like this, or something like this, maybe a little shorter.
So, a billion views in downloads.
I was pretty much one of the most famous public intellectuals for a time there.
My views on child abuse and the protection of children have been out and about since the very beginning of what I do in 2005, 21 years ago.
How many priests have invited me to come and point the way to being good Christians to the flock?
I have been to a whole bunch of churches over the last couple of years.
Out of curiosity, I don't want to be unfair.
Maybe they're talking about this.
Spoiler, they're not talking about this at all.
And why?
And why?
Jesus says, love those you hate.
Now, we're going to go out on a limb here and assume that people don't hate their children.
There's not heretical, religious, ethnic, and historical hatreds between parents and children.
And certainly, assaulting children is not in the definition of love.
Love your neighbor means take care of their wounds.
Jesus doesn't say, go and assault that Samaritan who's lying in the ditch bleeding because he disagrees with you theologically.
No.
Doesn't say that at all.
Says, go and bind his wounds, get him to an inn, pay his costs, check in on him, though the robbers may be about to pounce.
Go and carry him to succour and safety.
Has any Christian ever contacted me to point out that I'm right, as I am, about this?
God Commands Us to Help00:15:21
Nope.
Not one.
Not one.
I mean, Christians will go to Africa for a year or two to spread the gospel.
But will they talk about our need and obligation and virtuous necessity of protecting children in our own environment, in our own homes, in our own neighborhoods?
Nope.
And the last thing I'll say, and I'll take calls and I appreciate everyone's patience, but the last thing I'll say, this is the plot twist coup de grace, so to speak, is that nobody ever made any calls to the authorities while I was being beaten.
But then, when I was 16, or maybe 17, I was in a school play, and the caste party was held at my apartment, and it was fun.
I throw a pretty good party.
I've got a good taste for music.
Although we didn't play it too loud, I'm aware that it's a department, right?
And it wasn't super loud.
I guarantee that, because I was very aware of the noise level.
It wasn't super loud.
It wasn't super boisterous.
There were no drugs.
A little bit of drinking, but nobody was getting drunk.
And then, and only then, after 16 or 17 years of abuse, only then did my Christian neighbors see fit to call the authorities three times.
The police came by three times.
And on the third time, I opened the door and I just saw the policeman.
And I remember distinctly what he said.
I said, why didn't you knock?
And he said, because we're getting all these complaints.
I'm standing in the hallway listening and it's not that loud.
I don't know why people are complaining.
Well, that was it for me, man.
That was it.
It was all over.
Just that statement.
So all of the good-hearted protect the injured to receive eternal life and obey Jesus and virtue.
For 16 years, nobody made a phone call to protect me from being beaten and assaulted.
But the moment I had a party, everyone called the police.
Unjustly.
Because the police did not break up the party, and the policeman seemed quite puzzled.
I distinctly remember this look on his face from many years ago.
43 years ago.
I distinctly remember the look on his face.
I mean, I didn't knock because I'm standing here, I'm listening, everyone's complaining, we're getting all these phone calls, but it's not that loud.
And so the party was never broken up.
They never came into the house.
And that was it for me with Christianity.
I know this seems like a little thing.
It's not.
They won't call the police when I'm being beaten, which is exactly what Jesus at the very minimum commands them to do.
But God forbid I'm having fun.
Then everyone jabs the turn dial phone, calls 911, and don't say, hey, you know, there's a kid getting beaten next door.
Can you send someone?
No.
I hear sounds of happiness.
Shut it down.
whatever you do, shut it down.
And honestly, just like a big, the Velcro.
The Velcro cross just came off my heart.
Okay, so they can call just not when a child is being injured, but only when a teenager is enjoying himself.
And they can call the police.
And the police keep coming, and everyone's wrong.
So they won't call when God commands them to, but they will call when they hear sounds of enjoyment, which really aren't that loud.
Sorry, I don't know what it is, but it's not what is commanded.
And if commanding people to do things as simple as make an anonymous phone call with the promise of eternal life and the threat of eternal hell, if that doesn't work, then it is useless to try it.
My aunts, grace before every meal, church two or three times a week, kids in Sunday school take me to church, sing the hymns, dress up, look great.
They knew how violent my mother was, and they couldn't be bothered to ask me how I was doing.
Although that is exactly what Jesus commands them to do with the promise of eternal life and the threat of eternal damnation, they can't ask a simple question.
It's not that I don't believe.
It's that Christians don't believe.
Do you follow?
It's not that I said I don't believe in Christianity.
It's that I accept that even with divine commandments, eternal rewards or punishments, Christians don't believe.
And they continue in the present to not believe.
And I guarantee you, there will be Christians who listen to this.
And the case that I am making is air-fricking tight.
It is inescapable.
It is as solid as all men are mortal.
Socrates is a man, therefore Socrates is immortal.
The case I'm making is airtight.
It is not even proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
It is deductive, not inductive.
It is an open and shut case, smoking gun, video confession.
And I am not twisting the words of Jesus.
I am not misrepresenting the commandments of God.
I am making the case pure, clean, simple, irrefutable.
And I guarantee you, Christians will listen to this.
And listen, I love you like brothers in many ways.
I really do.
But Christians will listen to this.
They will feel uncomfortable and then it will vanish.
I don't know where.
I don't know why.
I don't know how.
When I'm faced with a contradiction, there's an old Star Wars book I read as a kid, A Splinter in the Mind's Eye, by Alan Dean Foster, who was kind of a go-to semi-pulp science fiction writer in the 70s.
A splinter in the mind's eye.
Not a very good book.
I read it because I liked Star Wars and there were no spaceships in it.
I remember that.
Hand solo at Star's End.
And then A Splinter in the Mind's Eye.
So for me, contradictions are a splinter in the mind's eye.
It bothers me.
It actually sometimes could rob me of sleep.
I feel uneasy.
You know, like, do I have enough food for the winter or is my family going to starve?
You know, that kind of uneasiness that the ICE people get.
It's that level of uneasiness.
I can't let it go.
It bothers me.
It stays with me.
It's like Socrates talked about his daemon, that is conscience.
That if things are okay with his conscience, things are okay with him.
Splinter in the mind's eye.
It bothers me.
I don't know why it doesn't bother religious people.
I have some suspicions, but that doesn't really matter.
But when religious people, with the promise of heaven and the threat of hell, don't do the tiniest thing that is required that their God commands them to do to be virtuous, and they do it in three different continents and they do it over 60 years.
And by now, it was hundreds of people when I was a child and a teenager.
Now, you understand, the experiment is much wider.
The experiment is probably over 21 years, a billion views and downloads, 50 or 100 million people.
Let's say, it doesn't matter.
25 million people who are religious have heard my arguments.
Out of 25 million people, how many of them have said, you are correct.
We missed this.
We're going to fix it.
Zero.
Like, I'm sorry.
I'm genuinely sorry.
Like, I wish it were otherwise.
I am sorrowful about this.
But arguing with facts is one of the definitions of insanity.
And I choose not to argue with facts.
I am an empiricist.
I don't care what people say.
I care what they do.
I don't want my doctor to simply mutter that he wants me to get better and kick me out into a snowbank.
I want him to actually give me some antibiotics if that is what is needed.
I'm an empiricist.
I judge a belief system not by what it claims, But by what it does, by what the people do, what the facts are, public intellectual 21 years, a billion views and downloads, even if we say it's a tiny percentage of that.
2.5% of a billion, what is that, 25 million?
I'm fudging the numbers to the low end.
I don't want to be accused of pushing the numbers.
I think it's probably closer to 10% or 100 million.
People who've heard this message, Lord knows I've hammered it hard for 21 years, one of the biggest public intellectuals around.
And when I did stand up for adult children and say they didn't have to spend time with abusers, I was attacked.
How many Christians said, wrote to me and said, you know, you're being attacked, it's because you're doing good.
I sympathize.
We are told to do the Good Samaritan thing.
If I see if people call me up and they're saying I'm miserable, and they're adults, right?
They say, I'm miserable because my parents are continually abusive and putting me down and undermining me and sabotaging me and threatening me and so on.
And I say, well, you don't have to spend time with people who are abusive.
That's pretty mild virtue.
It's pretty mild.
I'm not telling people to leave their families.
I'm just saying you can, and it might be healthy.
And you should talk to a therapist and you should talk to your parents, get their side of the story, make your case, whatever, right?
I see people, and I listen, I absorbed that Good Samaritan parable when I was a kid.
It went into my bone marrow.
It became wound into the very cellular atomic essence of my existence.
It wound itself into me, and I cannot pass the suffering and say nothing.
I cannot.
Because I know how hard it is when people step over your bleeding body because they think their bus might be coming.
As a child, that's what I was: a bleeding child by the side of the road that everyone passed by, and I have remained that, with few exceptions, for almost 60 years.
That is a lot of data.
It's a lot of private data.
It's a lot of public data.
These are facts.
Christianity has not solved the problem of child abuse, even though it commands people to help children as foundational to the manifestation of their love of God.
It commands people, it commands Christians to help me.
It commanded them, and it continues to command them to help me and billions like me.
Offering Eternity for One Call00:05:27
And it offers eternal life.
And it threatens eternal torment if they don't.
And it is not enough for them to make one phone call.
It's not enough.
If I, as a young man, offered a woman $10 million to go on a date with me, and she wouldn't, Wouldn't that be kind of confusing?
If I offered a woman $100 million just to have a one-minute phone call with me and she wouldn't, wouldn't that be kind of incomprehensible?
And Christianity offered the 25 to 50 to 100 million people who've heard my story.
It offers them eternal life for doing the right thing.
and they won't do the right thing.
So it doesn't work.
I don't know why.
I don't know why.
If somebody offered me eternity of bliss and eternity with beloved friends and family for making one phone call, do you understand?
Like, I hope I'm getting just how incredibly incomprehensible this is.
If somebody said to me, Steph, make one anonymous phone call for 60 seconds and you get eternal life with beloved family and friends.
And I said, nah, no.
No, thanks.
That's nothing.
No, no.
And then every night there's a beating, right?
Every night, just one phone call, man.
Just one phone call, eternal life, eternal bliss, eternal happiness.
One phone call.
Oh, and if you don't make the phone call, it's eternal hell.
And I said, nah, I'm not making the phone call, man.
Maybe if there's a little bit of a loud party, oh, not even maybe.
I'll absolutely call the cops over and over again if there's any kind of loud party, but not to save a child being beaten.
No, Come on.
Let's be serious.
People would spend hours collecting pop bottles for a couple of pennies.
People won't make one phone call or send one uncomfortable email to receive eternal life.
And then I'll get to the cause, and I appreciate your patience.
Last thing I want to say is: so I assume that the priests know the market of religion far better than I do, because they're priests.
They spend their entire life in that world, and I don't.
So why have the priests not emailed me and say, you know, you've given us a new call to arms.
You have, like a silly secular prophet, you have brought us the connections that we need to make that God clearly said from the beginning to protect the wounded and the most wounded in our society are children by far.
So let's get it moving.
Let's get a movement going.
Come to the church.
We'll put you on a speaking tour.
We'll introduce you as the most surprising source of revelatory action in the history of Christianity.
An unbeliever who connects the obvious dots far better than any Christians have.
Say your peace, make your peace.
Say your thing, make your speech, make these connections.
Why haven't they done that?
Because the congregation doesn't want it.
So when I say, here is how to best fulfill the commands of Jesus, when I say that, and I make the obvious references absolutely incontrovertible from the mouth of Jesus himself, and I say, this is what has been missing.
This is what needs to be done.
It's all been right there, but for some reason, the obvious draw a line from A to B has not been made.
We need to do it.
and Christianity has had over 2,000 years to do this, and it hasn't done it.
So why, when When I remind people of the simple things they need to do to love God, love their neighbor, and gain eternal life, won't they do it?
I mean, if I had somehow found a way that you could snap your fingers and be cured of any illness, and I went to a cancer ward, people dying of cancer and said, And listen, just snap your fingers, just make one 60-second phone call, and you'll be cured of cancer and you will never get sick again.
And people said, No, I don't want to, I don't want to make a, I don't want to make a phone call.
I mean, I can make phone calls, but only if there's a disturbance from the next ward that's a little loud, I'm not going to make a phone call to cure my cancer.
That would be, and again, I'm telling you, this is how incomprehensible it is to me.
I don't understand it.
Betrayal That Matters No More00:05:11
And I'm certainly happy to have it explained to me.
I really am.
Don't understand it.
Eternal life or eternal torment based upon making a phone call, they won't do it, and they're still not doing it.
All right.
I appreciate your patience, everyone.
Thank you so much.
I know we've got a whole bunch of callers.
I will try to get to people.
Andre, if you want to set me straight, I'm all ears.
Rita, bringing me up to the speaker panel.
I appreciate you accepting my request.
That was an incredibly powerful and deeply heartbreaking story.
And I will tell you that what brought me up to the speaker panel was not even the words that you were speaking, but the screams of that little boy in the night who was beaten by the one person sent here to protect him.
Above all else, the one person who, from whom betrayal should never, ever have occurred.
And I'm sorry beyond words that your soul had to go through that torture again and again, not only being betrayed by your own father, by the neighbors surrounding you, who most likely did not make phone calls that were ignored by the police, but most likely did not make the phone calls to begin with.
It is beyond the understanding of my Christian heart how that could have occurred in this world.
It's beyond the understanding of my Christian heart how many, many, many things can happen to children in this realm.
I do not understand it.
But I do want to offer this.
The day my heart broke so wide open was the day that I realized that during every trauma, during every childhood beating,
during every abandonment, during every betrayal, during every tear of mine as a child or as an adult that was shed in what I perceived to be isolation, loneliness, darkness, not a single person coming to say, hey, I'm here.
When I realized that through none of that was I actually alone, through none of that was I ever actually abandoned, that Jesus was right there with me, holding me the entire time, carrying me right here to this moment where I'm a safe grown adult in command of my own energy field, my own surroundings,
able to speak these words back to those who might hear, that I was never abandoned by God.
It broke my heart open so widely and I wept.
And I realized it didn't matter anymore who had beaten me.
It didn't matter anymore who had abused me.
What mattered is the one who never left me, the one who carried me through all of it and set me down right here on a Sunday morning, speaking with you,
safe and unharmed, knowing that Christian to Christian, we can reach out across these devices through time and space and help heal each other and not have to abandon our faith to look for reasons for things that do not have reason.
Nobody knows why human beings are capable of evil, are capable of ignorance, are capable of apostasy.
But we do know that we have the capacity to heal.
We do know that we have the capacity to go forward with Christ in our heart and carry that to our brothers and sisters on this day in these times.
And so I just wanted to come up and say, I am deeply sorry.
I don't know why you had to go through that, why your cries and screams went unanswered, but I appreciate you being here.
And I still hear, I still hear faith in your heart.
I do.
And I know that that you have not been abandoned.
And I want to thank you for your story this morning.
I appreciate that.
It's very kind words.
Faith When Neighbors Fail00:14:32
I know that the police were not called for two reasons.
One, when my mother called the police, they came.
And two, when neighbors called the police.
Many times on that night of the party, that the police kept showing up.
So I know that the police come if you call.
So I know that the police weren't called.
As to being abandoned, I'm not really sure what that means.
Because if Jesus or God was able to come into my heart and give me comfort, then Jesus or God would be able to give, would be able to enter into the hearts of the neighbors who were hearing the abuse and give them the motivation to call the police.
So I'm not sure why Jesus would only intervene in the victim's heart and not in the heart of the indifferent soulless ghouls around who didn't make the phone call.
So I logically, for me, if Jesus is going to intervene and motivate people, then he should not intervene to give comfort to the afflicted, but rather to afflict the comfortable with a bad conscience and have them behave better.
But I really do appreciate your kind words.
That means a lot to me.
Thank you.
All right.
NJM.
Hey, what's up, Steph?
I'm going to park real quick because my Azure lights gone off.
You want to go to somebody else?
I'll get right back to you, unless you don't mind hearing that in the background.
I'm about to park it and turn it off.
I have a warning light issue.
Okay, okay, stud.
Yeah, so what I was thinking, real quick, because I don't want to go too far afield from your story and your kind of your sentiment.
The church is in disarray, and so are our civilizations.
I think it has a lot to do with the Western, the far West attacking the Central and East, Eastern portions of the European world, which were definitely more, I would say, stable.
And so, like, you know, Britain, America, France, who imposed revolutions on themselves internally, voluntarily, attacked countries like Russia and Germany and Italy, which, you know, refused those revolutions and had we imposed revolutions on them from without.
And so we are in the throes of a global revolution.
I think we're working our way through that.
We're in disarray.
And I think we're all learning the lessons of what happens when you are disobedient to God.
And that happened.
What happens when the elephants fight the.
Okay, sorry.
I got to interrupt you.
I got to interrupt you because you're a little, it's honestly, it's a little rude that you're using my sort of personal stories to push your own political agenda.
So let me ask you this in the context of what I was saying.
No, let me ask you this in the context of what I was saying.
Was it wrong for Christians to not help me as a child?
Okay.
Now, this was 50, 60 years ago, right?
I mean, I'm not even going to say right.
I mean, I just, I know that because I know how old I am or 59 years old.
Okay.
So would you say that the West was more Christian 60 years ago or less Christian?
Oh, right.
Yeah.
So I think.
No, no, no, no.
Brew, be polite.
Answer my question.
If I ask you a question, don't go off on some other speech, right?
And you don't have to answer my question, but if you're not going to answer questions, we can't have a conversation.
So was the world more or was the West more or less Christian 60 years ago?
It was less watered down by people from the third world who are not Christian.
Yeah.
Were there more or fewer atheists 60 years ago in the West?
Probably fewer.
Were there fewer agnostics 60 years ago in the West?
Was church attendance higher 60 years ago in the West?
Yes, probably.
Okay, so people were more Christian, much more Christian, significantly, multiples of orders of magnitude, more Christian 60 years ago.
And they failed repeatedly, extensively.
And it wasn't like I had other friends who I knew were being abused who had a different experience.
So this was universal.
That Christians don't follow Christianity because Christ commands them to aid the wounded and they don't even make a phone call when they hear children being abused, not just in my house, but in the houses of all the people that I've talked to.
And I, of course, have had public and private conversations with thousands of victims of child abuse over the last 21 years.
And how many of them, and also people who weren't abused, how many of them had interventions from Christians in any negative things happening within the family?
The answer is zero.
I don't remember one call.
Maybe there's one.
I mean, it's been a lot, but I don't remember one call.
And I think it would because it would be memorable.
I don't remember one phone call where, or one of my call-in shows where somebody said, oh, yeah, no, the priest came by.
He said this is unacceptable.
He got my kids into parental training and said you can't treat your children this way.
Right.
So, so why did people fall away from the church?
Because the church is not interested in protecting children, even though that is the foundational commandment of the religion.
So it's not that people are just sinful and fell away from the church.
The church has failed to be Christian.
The church has failed to follow the mandate of Jesus to protect the harmed.
And children are without a doubt the most harmed.
And Jesus recognized that.
He said, if somebody harms children, it is better that a millstone be placed around his neck.
Jesus said, Whatever you do to the least among you, which is the children, so do you also do to me.
Jesus commanded the protection of children, and Christians don't do it.
After 2,000 years of intellectual and cultural and political dominance, it's still not a thing, even though that is so.
It's just not enough.
And so, the reason why people fell away from Christianity was because Christianity did not protect the children.
All right.
I don't want to do sort of abstract politics.
So, KT, if you would like to join the conversation, I would love to hear what you have to say, my friend.
Just don't forget to unmute.
I know there's a wee bit of a delay.
Vamp, vamp, vamp.
What is on your mind?
Going once, going twice.
I try to avoid excessive editing afterwards because it cuts into other things I could be doing that are more productive.
So, if y'all could be ready to go, I would appreciate that because it looks like this person is not.
I'm sorry, I am online.
Can you hear me?
Yes, go ahead.
Oh, um, I am just, I wanted to be like Andra.
Um, I'm a Christian through and through.
I could feel it when I was born.
The light of God emanates in my soul.
And regardless of the things that have happened in my past, and believe me, they are deep.
And I hear you, and I have so much empathy for you and what you have been through because me too.
I'm a warrior and a survivor, no doubt.
However, don't speak against him, speak to him and speak for him.
We are the light of the world, and we cultivate in a collective.
It is as simple as light and dark.
And if you're going to continue to just hash up the past and remember that child, that's great.
You can connect with him in all the ways.
I mean, cultivate him and give him love and let him know that it was not his fault, but it wasn't God's fault either.
There's a reason why these things happen, and we grow through them in incredible strength.
And God will give it to you if you ask him, but you're not empowering him, you're talking down against him, and that is not going to cultivate your light.
It's only going to dim you and make you dark.
Okay, sorry, sorry.
I have to get you off your bit of a train track here.
No, it's not a train track.
You're also calling people rude.
And I apologize.
I know that this is your forum, but you are absolutely rude.
Yeah, I know.
And you will railroad me.
I get who you are inside your soul.
You need Jesus.
You need Jesus.
Pray to Him.
He will give you life.
Hang on.
Hang on.
How about you?
You can find it in the sun.
Hang on.
The moon.
Have I spoken out against God?
The stars, the universe.
It's all aligned.
Believe in it.
No, I know.
I know that you can hear me and I can absolutely hear you.
You have been so rude to you.
Yeah.
So now she has a problem, right?
So she accused me of speaking out against God.
I have not spoken out against God.
I actually hugely respect God's commandment to protect the children.
I have not spoken out against God.
And this is somebody who is not listening.
And the reason I say it's a bit of a train track is that people have these canned responses, which are not empirical to what I actually said.
All right.
Josh, my friend, what is on your mind?
Josh has come and gone.
All right.
Jamson, if you want to take a bit to a moment to unmute, I appreciate everyone's feedback today.
And thank you all for listening.
Hi, greetings.
Greetings.
May I call you Steph or Stefan?
Whatever you like, it's fine with me.
Well, Stefan, I had a neighbor when I was young.
I feel like I'm your older soul brother.
I had a neighbor when I was younger, Stefan, across the street.
And his father was Italian, and he got abused when he was a child.
But I tell you, listening to your story, every time you use the word Christian, it hurts me.
It's like I get punched in his chest.
You know, they've given Christ such a bad name, Christians.
Well, I mean, I appreciate that.
And I'm not even in particular blaming Christians.
I'm just saying that it hasn't worked.
I'm not, I mean, if everyone is failing a particular test, it means that the test is impossible.
Like, so whatever the commandments, the incentives, the punishments, the rewards, the exhortations, it's not enough for Christians to follow Christianity in a practical way that fulfills the basic commandment that Jesus gives, which is to love your neighbor as yourself.
And so whatever has occurred, it is not working.
And again, as an empiricist, people say, well, the reason that it's not working is because X, Y, and Z.
It's like, but if something has had 2,000 years to work and it's working worse than ever, then that's just a fact.
It doesn't work to protect children.
It doesn't work.
Even the promise of eternal life, the threat of eternal damnation, the commandments of the all-knowing, all-moral, all-seeing God is not enough to get people to make a simple phone call.
So we have to try something else, right?
I mean, as you know, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing.
It's one of them, right?
And expecting a different outcome.
So I'm not even, you know, mad at individual Christians or anything like that.
But I just accept that empirically, it is not working.
It does not work to protect children, and it is continuing to not work to protect children.
So I appreciate your thoughts, and thank you for calling.
All right.
Josh, I'll be back if you want to take a moment.
Don't forget to unmute.
I'm all ears.
Yes, sir.
Go ahead.
Issues before.
Firstly, I just want to wish you a happy Sunday.
It's great to hear your voice.
I was at church.
I came back and you're speaking to me right now.
So I'm happy to engage in the subject.
Second, I'm a longtime fan of yours.
And I saw a recent picture of you with makeup on with your daughter.
I don't know if it's the best look, maybe red lipstick or something.
But, you know, it's good to try new things.
Now, I do have to ask Stefan, when you say Christianity, in my interpretation as a practicing Catholic, I do think that's somewhat of a blanket statement.
So do you, in your assertion here, draw a distinction between Catholics and Protestants in this argument?
I mean, we certainly could go down that.
It's a big rabbit hole.
But let me ask you this.
Does the parable of the Good Samaritan exhort Christians to intervene when they see a child being beaten?
I believe you've made that point very clear.
And this, as I can speak for myself, I would intervene.
Yes.
That's not what I'm asking.
I didn't ask what you would do.
I ask, what is the right thing to do as a Christian?
Okay.
What is the right thing to do as a Christian?
It's a simple question, bro.
Does the parable of the Good Samaritan require Christians to intervene when they see a child being beaten?
Not spanking.
No, let's take the spanking out of it, like beaten.
There are requirements, sure, but we have to appreciate we're man, right?
We're flawed.
So there may be a requirement, and it's sort of natural for human beings to not meet those requirements, right?
It's only through.
Christians Failing Moral Requirements00:15:21
That's not what I'm asking.
Yeah, well, your answer is.
I'm asking, is it a requirement for Christians based on Jesus' central parable of the Good Samaritan?
Is it a requirement for Christians to intervene when they see a child being violently abused?
Again, we can take spanking out of the equation or gentle correction or but abuse, like illegal abuse.
Is it a requirement for Christians to intervene when they see a child being abused based upon the commandments of Jesus as manifested in the first parable he talks about when he's asked what does it mean to be a Christian, to love God with all of your heart, and to love your neighbor as yourself?
Does that mean that it is a requirement for Christians to intervene in situations of child abuse?
But you're stuck in this box and not allowing the natural extension.
I'll ask you this.
Would you agree that it is a requirement for Christians to repent or confess when they sin?
So this is rude, right?
You're not answering my question.
Well, your question is obviously, yes.
Like, there's an example.
Hang on, hang on.
Mm-hmm.
I don't know what your answer is.
I can't read your mind.
Well, I told you that I would intervene, Stephanie.
No, no, but you said you would intervene, but not that it is a doctrinal Christian moral requirement.
Then we circle back to Catholicism and Protestants.
No, we don't, because Jesus' commandments apply.
It's not like the Good Samaritan only applies to Catholics, but not to Anglicans, because I was taught the Good Samaritan parable, and I grew up as an Anglican.
And you were taught the parable of the Good Samaritan, and I assume you grew up as a Catholic.
So it is something that absolutely bridges the divide between Catholicism and Protestantism.
So that is why I was talking about Christianity as a whole, because the doctrine or the parable of the Good Samaritan applies equally to both Protestants and Catholics.
Would you agree?
In this particular example, I don't think there are gradients amongst Protestants and Catholics that are different.
I think it's the aftermath that is the question here, because what you're saying is, okay, Christians failed to intervene in an instance where they were commanded or obliged to intervene.
No, not an instance.
An instance I can understand.
An instance I can understand.
Millions and millions of Christians, hundreds directly when I was a child, tens of millions or millions as an adult have failed this essential test to intervene to protect children, despite being commanded to do so by Jesus.
That's a challenge.
I mean, you understand whether you agree with me or not, you can understand that that's a challenging situation, that Jesus commands something very foundational.
And Christians, and I would put yourself in this category, seem pretty hesitant to commit to it.
But you're sort of this is a moot point.
Like man, tens of millions, tens of billions, it doesn't matter.
Man is man.
So the expectation is for them to fail.
I think where Christianity as a whole comes into effect is the aftermath.
I think the Christian expectation, or what is essential, is that you confess and you do better.
You rise above it.
I think it's the aftermath that is really important here.
The expectation is that they're going to fail you.
And when you were speaking, Stephan, I kind of interpreted your expectations as being utopian, almost communist in a sense.
Pardon that expression, because I know you have strong views on that.
But the reason why I thought that is because it's almost like an entitlement.
Like the Christians should be coming to save me.
Why aren't they coming to save me?
Well, when have you ever saved a Christian?
What are you doing for Christianity?
Because I'm sorry, are you talking about when I was three or four or five years old that I should have been out there as a missionary saving Christians?
I'm thinking of you as a 50-year-old.
No, no, no.
I was talking about my childhood.
I don't ask to be saved by Christians from my mother now.
And I haven't for decades.
I mean, I kicked her out when I was 15.
So the idea that somehow it's my fault for not saving Christians is not very elevated.
Because I was, it's true.
Listen, I will absolutely accept your premise, my friend, that I was not out there saving Christians while being beaten when I was, say, four years old.
I would completely accept that.
Well, I think you should also accept that you have helped Christians through your philosophy as you've gotten older.
That it was through those beatings that you found the strength to reason and be a voice, a strong voice, an influential voice on this particular subject matter.
And I just don't think that you're kind of looking at this as like a small segment of time where I kind of think we have free will, we do grow, we do repent, and that's part of the story as well.
Right.
And I think if you've noticed a problem in Christianity, then it, I think, in a certain sense, as an older man, you should be inclined to fix that.
And I do think you're failing yourself by not acknowledging how those shortcomings of Christianity that you encountered as a child, as a man, you are doing your best to educate Christians on their shortcomings.
And I think that is actually, it's human and it's positive.
I mean, that's interesting.
I mean, after hearing about, you know, violent child abuse, after hearing about millions of people, or at least hundreds as a kid, millions as an adult, tens of millions, who failed to recognize and act upon that, the only person that you can see fit to criticize is me.
That's really interesting to me.
That's number one.
Number two is that I don't like this aspect.
I can't say whether this is Christianity as a whole, where if you fail obvious moral ideals, you say, well, you know, but hey, human beings, we're bound to fail.
We're composed of sin.
We're going to fail.
And I think that's a terrible standard to have when it comes to morals because it is a giant excuse machine.
If you fail, basic morals, again, a simple phone call at any time.
Over the 15 years that I was under the care, custody, control, and brutality of my mother, a simple phone call from any one of hundreds and hundreds of people who knew about it, who were Christians.
And you say, well, but human beings, we're kind of designed to fail.
We're going to fail.
We're going to not meet our ideals, and what matters is that you...
I mean, that doesn't make any sense to me.
I mean, why have a moral system that has a built-in infinity of excuses?
I think, Stefan, the secular is what has failed you in this instance.
I think the secular virus since the Reformation, let's say.
Okay, hang on.
I don't know if you heard the speech.
I'm sorry to interrupt you.
I know that's rude, but I don't know what you're talking about.
I literally said it was the Christians around me, the priests, the heavily Christians, the people who went to church, my aunts.
It was the Christians, that the people who surrounded me were Christian.
And England, back in the late 1960s and early 1970s, was overwhelmingly Christian.
So every time Christianity gets criticized, if it switches to the secular, this is like feminists when women are criticizing.
What about men?
You can't just switch to the secular.
I grew up in an overwhelmingly Christian society.
I went to a specifically Christian boarding school.
I was surrounded by devout Christians who brought me to church.
My neighbors were Christians.
Some of my friends were Christians.
So blaming this on the secular, I'm sorry to interrupt, but it just means that you weren't listening.
And I find these kinds of excuses kind of silly.
People don't listen.
All right.
Strider, what is on your mind, my friend?
Please remember to unmute so that you can tickle your brain with your silky syllables.
Hey, Stefan, how's it going?
All right.
How are you doing?
Not bad.
Hey, so I kind of echo one of the previous callers who just feel really bad for what you went through in your childhood because mine's very similar.
I grew up not in a Christian home, but I had Christians around me who knew that I was being abused and never once had they done anything.
And I just want to say that it's not a testimony against Christianity, but it actually, like, I'm sure you know the saying of Jesus where he says, not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my father who is in heaven.
On that day, many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name and do many mighty works in your name?
And then I will declare to them, I never knew you.
Depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.
So when I hear your story about all these quote-unquote Christians who couldn't be bothered to make a phone call, were they actually following the teachings of Christ or were they merely Christians in name?
I mean, I don't can't read people's minds and it doesn't matter.
Like, let's say you call a cab and the cab comes to your house and then the cab won't start.
I mean, let's say you've got to get to the airport, you've got a plane to catch, and it's really important, and the cab driver can't start his car.
Are you mad at the cab driver?
Well, no, I mean, assuming that he didn't just forget to fill up gas or do something, you know, just sadly the car, the spark plug isn't working, or something is not sparking and not firing up, and that little controlled explosion of the internal combustion and doing its little boom, boom, boom.
And you're just like, you've got to call another cab.
Like, it's not, you're not mad.
It's just this cab doesn't work.
It's not going to get you to the airport.
And I'm not mad at the car.
I'm not mad at the cab driver.
I'm not mad at the gas company.
I'm not mad at the company that makes the spark plugs.
I just have to get to the airport, and this cab isn't working.
I have to get society to a state of virtue.
And Christianity has had a good old run.
Religion has had a good old run.
5,000, 10,000, a million years, depending on when we first began to ascribe the actions of the universe to the whims of the gods.
Religion has had an infinity of time.
Philosophy through UPB is really just getting started.
So when you say, well, but they weren't real Christians, I mean, that's a no-true Scotsman fallacy.
Christianity commands people to intervene in situations of child abuse, and it is foundational.
It is not a side quest.
It is foundational.
Most people will not walk around in this world and end up coming across a guy bleeding in a ditch.
Never happened to me.
Never happened to you, I imagine.
I have occasionally, like I remember many years ago, coming across a woman in a wheelchair who was being threatened by a big guy, and I intervened there, but it's pretty rare.
Once, twice in my life.
And certainly, I've never come across a good Samaritan situation.
And very few people have.
But what we do know of, given the prevalence of child abuse, we do know that almost everyone knows of a child who's being abused.
And the parable of the Good Samaritan is: you help tend the wounds of those who are victims, who are being who have been abused, even though it puts you in considerable physical danger, even though it costs you half your money and days of your time.
That's what you do.
That's what is the central commandment of Christianity as expressed by Jesus Himself.
This is not controversial.
And if you say, well, people just don't do it because they're not real Christians, it's like, then of what use is the belief?
Right?
It's that old, you know, if all your rules got you to this place, of what use are the rules?
If the purpose of mankind and the virtue of society is based upon the protection of children, because if we can't protect children, then what is the point of any of it?
And we can't get peace and we can't get freedom and we can't get security and we can't end criminality.
And we'll continually have wars if we can't protect children.
I read this Lloyd DeMoss book, The Origins of War in Child Abuse.
You can get it at freedomain.com/slash books.
It's free.
So if you can't protect children, that's the basis.
That's the most fundamental test of any moral system: the protection of children.
And I go into this in great detail in my novel, The Future, again, freedomain.com/slash books.
It's free.
You should check it out.
But if a moral system cannot protect children, it cannot achieve anything virtuous in any sustained fashion.
And so, if after 2,000 years, well, I guess it was 1966 or whatever, right, when I was born.
But if after 2,000 years, Christianity remains unable and unwilling to protect children, though it is the central commandment, if you have been trying to teach someone piano for 30 years and they can't even play chopsticks, does it matter the reason?
It just the knowledge is not being transferred.
The children are not being protected.
And so as to whether they're real Christians or fake Christians, okay, let's say that they weren't real Christians because they didn't make a simple phone call to protect the child.
Loving Abusers Despite Evil00:15:56
Let's say that.
Okay.
So then after 2,000 years, a moral system can't get its adherents to do even the most basic, simple, and easy moral task.
So of what use is the system?
So that's my sort of basic point.
And again, I appreciate people's feedback and calls.
And I appreciate people's sympathy.
It's very, very much appreciated.
All right.
Come back, Eliza.
Come back, girl, and join me here.
I'll dick you.
I love that song, Sylvie, by Harry Belafonte.
All right.
Elizabeth, if you would like to unmute, I'd be happy to hear your thoughts.
Good morning, and thank you so much for sharing your story.
I share your story.
Oddly enough, born in 66 and raised in a very Christian community, Christian home.
And just recently, just, you know, for all the listeners on the call, I call my parents in a moment of openness and love.
I choose to love them, even though they did abuse me in the name of God.
I try to forgive them.
They're 83.
They'll be dead soon.
And I want to be peace in my heart that I did the right thing, even though they didn't.
And they're sharing with me, Stefan, this just shocked me.
My heart's wide open.
I called to give them love and share love.
And I wasn't expecting this.
And it shocked me.
They tell me, I said, well, how was Sunday?
They went to church.
They had a great service.
They were laughing.
The minister had us laughing so hard.
I'm like, well, what were you laughing about?
That sounds awesome.
Oh, he was telling the story of Spare the Rod, Spoil the Child.
And he was sharing that his father disciplined him in the name of God.
And it was a hysterically fun story of he had done something wrong.
And he knew his father meant business because his father was chasing him around the barn with a belt.
And my parents thought it was hysterically funny.
The minister's sharing it with the congregation and thinking hysterical fun that he was running around a barn terrified of his father and that was in the name of God.
So I quickly hang up the phone and say, I have a work call.
By the way, I'm a psychiatrist and I take care of people who've been abused.
That's my calling in life because I understand where they're at.
However, I went to AI to try to better understand where are they coming from with this.
And you hope by 83, they would realize the error of their ways and be regretful.
Absolutely not.
They were celebrating it.
And this is 2026.
We know child abuse is wrong.
We know there's healthy ways to parent children.
And yet, still in the churches, they're using this scripture, Proverbs 23, 13, 14, do not withhold discipline from a child.
If you punish them with the rod, they will not die.
Punish them with the rod and save them from death.
Proverbs 29, 15.
A rod and a reprimand impart wisdom, but a child left undisciplined disgraces its mother.
I have lived with this for 60 years now.
I'm trying to do the right thing.
And obviously, I've not been able to do what I would love to do.
I would love to go to church and feel social belongingness and connect to people.
And I'm a loving human being.
I was born to love.
Love is power.
And despite their abuse, I choose to be the bigger person.
They're senior people, and I do what I would do for any 83-year-old human being.
However, trying to justify abuse still to this day, and ministers in the pulpit preaching it to the congregations that if you want to show your love for God, use the rod.
Let them know you mean business.
That's how you love children.
It is absolutely sickening.
I have no idea how we can continue this teaching in 2026.
We have knowledge.
We're able to find out.
And there are people like you teaching people that children, yes, I believe in disciplining children.
I think absolutely that's a very important thing.
However, you discipline with love and kindness.
And this whole Bible idea of the rod needs to go.
That's my story.
Stick into it.
I appreciate that.
And thank you, of course, for all that you've done for mental health throughout the decades.
This is a beautiful thing.
I'm very tempted.
I got to tell you, you say you're a psychiatrist.
How many people have wanted to ask psychiatrists about their mother?
Oh, a lot.
Just out of curiosity and share whatever you feel like.
Don't share if you don't feel like it.
But what happened with your parents when you were a child?
What were the experiences that were negative for you?
Oh, mean growing up.
Yeah.
Oh, we were on Sundays, and they were proud to share this because the minister just two weeks ago told his story, same story.
You went out and you picked a switch off the tree before you went to church.
And if you acted up in church in any way, you would be switched and you would be, there would be marks left.
That was the point.
You would have to expose your legs and they would use the switch that you picked before you went to church.
And that was the threat.
It was always there.
Any wrong, any wrong whatsoever at all that they perceived a wrongdoing, there was belt and they were proud, very proud.
And I was terrified of my parents.
And I always wanted to do the right thing in the family.
I'm the typical middle child trying to make everybody in the family okay.
So I would do everything possible to avoid the anger and wrath of my parents.
But my sister and my brother were defiant.
And I would have to witness them get beat with belts, beat with sticks, slapped in the face.
That was what they called loving God because they were disciplining their children.
And for all the Christians on the call who didn't have that experience growing up, lucky you, you got a great version of Christianity.
But there's a whole lot of us out here that didn't get that watered-down version.
And they took that scripture to heart.
And they abused us in the name of God.
And it was cultural.
My aunts, my uncles, everybody in the church knew it, but they celebrated it.
That was my parents doing the godly right thing to do.
Right.
And I'm sorry about that.
I know that there are obviously passages in the Bible that can be interpreted as promoting physical discipline or beatings or so on.
I'm a parent.
It sounds like you are too.
And the way that I teach my child discipline is through my own self-discipline.
In the same way that I don't beat her into speaking the right words for things, but rather I use the right words for things myself and it just transfers that way.
So I exercise.
I restrain my eating.
I do good in the world, though it costs me.
I do shows when I have a headache.
You know, I just show self-discipline.
And that's what she interprets.
That's what she absorbs.
And so when it says, withhold not discipline from your children, what I interpret that to mean is model self-discipline, and your children will then inherit your self-discipline as surely as they inherit the words that you use for things in the world.
When they say, withhold not the rod, the rod is not something you hit with.
It refers to the shepherd's staff or the shepherd's rod, which is used for guiding.
So the sheep could see it.
You don't beat the sheep with your rod.
You use it for guidance in a peaceful way.
You lead the way.
They can see what you're doing because your virtues are empirical to them.
I have never raised my voice at my child.
I have never physically disciplined my child.
I have never punished her.
I model the behavior that I wish to see in my child, as is the behavior I wish to see in my own conscience and in myself.
And she is great.
You do not need violence when you have reasonable levels of moral admiration on the part of your child.
She's seen me stand up to the gales and storms of outrageous falsehoods and attacks and continue what it is that I'm doing.
She's seen me speak truth to power.
She's seen me stand up tall in the face of very violent threats and give public speeches and so on at reasonable levels.
I'm not kind of crazy in terms of that.
I think if I were Erica Kirk, I would have strongly suggested that Charlie Kirk stopped doing public appearances for a while because he was right in, well, I guess literally in the crosshairs of some very significant stuff.
What I would say, though, is that I, and maybe it's a failure, maybe it's not, I could make arguments that it's not, but I cannot love evildoers.
And of course, I'm not saying your parents are demonically or foundationally or through and through evil.
But those who abuse children and what you and your siblings faced, you less so because of your compliance.
But as you know, that has other costs.
Those who fight against abusers suffer more physically, but they do retain a bit of a strength of will sometimes those who comply.
And I was a complier in many ways like you.
So I say this with all due humility.
We save ourselves from some physical dangers, but there are willpower and identity costs that are considerable as well.
And there's no good answer as to whether you should comply or defy.
But I cannot love unrepentant evildoers.
Certainly your parents did evil.
And they're continuing to do evil because when they cheer the priest who talks about beating children with belts, they are encouraging the younger parents in the congregation to do just that.
They are still cheering it on.
They are still giving social rewards, social approval, and social credit to child abusers.
So they are continuing the cycle of abuse, even though it has been many decades since they were parents with that kind of physical authority over their children.
They are still cheering it on and encouraging it and not just permitting, but praising that behavior in younger parents.
So they are still part of the cycle of violence, even in their 80s.
I cannot love unrepentant evildoers.
I don't think it's possible to, but you feel differently for sure.
Well, I agree with you, Stefan.
It's been a journey of my lifetime, honestly.
And it took me 45 years to find my voice in the world and to stand on my own two feet outside of the cycle of violence.
I mean, it still affects me.
That phone call literally had my entire nervous system completely rattled.
And I came home and I literally turned on some beautiful music about healing and recovery and cried my eyeballs out.
And I'm 60 years old.
I mean, it still affects me deeply.
And like you said, compliance is one way to survive it, but there is a psychological cost for that.
And it took me many, many, many long years.
And I'm still working through it, honestly.
And I think to myself, it's not, I guess, it's a selfish love.
It's a love for myself that on the day I get the call that my mom, my dad have passed off this earth, I will stand in my own heart and know that I chose a way of being with them that I can live with, but there will never be peace.
When they die, there will still be great pain in my heart because they never chose to get to know me.
They never chose me.
They choose their religion above their children.
I am second in their world.
I'm not even second.
I'm a distant third.
And that's not how I think that healthy parents should relate to their children.
Your child is your being in the world.
That's you.
That should be your number one.
And they've always said, you know, God, wife, children in that order and God first.
And I don't think that God would ask us to put people in a hierarchy and love God more than you love your child.
I don't think that's okay.
No, and it's certainly God would certainly.
I'm so sorry.
Please, I apologize.
I thought you were done.
Please go on.
No, I just have got to, I know on their dying day, there will be many unresolved emotions and feelings.
And I don't think there's a right or wrong way to manage these horrific situations.
I think you should never leave yourself.
Thank God I'm an adult now.
And I moved far away from them.
You need to protect your physical being as an adult and the emotions and the psychological difficulties and challenges.
You got to find your way and whatever it is that brings your heart to greatest peace.
And I respect you for saying no more and distancing yourself, absolute respect for that.
And I just have chosen, I guess, a different way.
I don't say it's right.
It's just my way, you know, it's a survivor way.
No, I get that.
And a massive hugs and sympathies for what you experienced as a child.
And there's sort of two thoughts that pop into my head.
And I really do appreciate, of course, everyone sharing their stories.
It's really a beautiful thing to hear.
Number one is for me, I had to separate myself from toxic people because I wanted non-toxic people in my life.
And they're like oil and water.
Like healthy, happy people don't want to spend time with unrepentant child abusers.
It's too painful.
It's too ugly.
It's too difficult.
And my wife practiced psychology for like a quarter century, well-trained in these kinds of things.
And if I want someone as healthy and good and happy as my wife in my life, I cannot ask her to mix with the immoral, the violent, the corrupt, the false, the self-justifying, and at times the evil.
So I had to get corrupt people out of my life so I could get good people into my life.
And that's one of the prices that became clear.
Accountability Over Forgiveness00:15:17
The other thing for me is that this is another issue to me about the question of religion, which is that if, as I sort of perceive the Bible, it doesn't say beat your children.
It says don't be lazy parents and let them try to raise themselves.
Show them some discipline, show them some self-restraint, show them some limitations, some boundaries, some virtues, have acceptable and unacceptable behavior in yourself.
It's hard to imagine that a child who is raised speaking English is just going to break out speaking Japanese one day.
And it is hard to imagine that a child who is raised with parents who are committed to telling the truth will just become some pathological liar.
I mean, I guess you could say it's possible.
You know, there's lots of dice that are rolled when a brain is formed, but it seems highly, highly unlikely.
And it certainly has not been my experience.
So if there was a God who, through the parable of the Good Samaritan, through the millstone analogy that whoever harms a child, it's better that a millstone be thrown around his neck and be dropped into the deep water, that the death penalty for harming children is foundational and that the protection of children that is commanded by Jesus and the parable of the Good Samaritan, if there was a God who was overseeing the translation of the Bible, then God would never choose the word rod.
God would say, staff of wisdom, book of guidance, light of virtue, encouragement of integrity, like whatever they would, but it wouldn't say, it wouldn't be interpretable as hit your children with a stick, like this sort of horrible, sadistic pick your switch out to get hit by if you misbehave at church.
And so if there was a God, God would, since God inspires the translations of the Bible, because otherwise it would be subject to human fallibility and we'd all have to read ancient Aramaic to have any sense of what was good or not.
So God guided Martin Luther, God guided the King James translations, God guided all of the translations of the Bible.
And if there was a God who wanted to protect children, he would never let the word rod slip through and he would never leave his verses open to interpretation that children should be beaten.
And this would be another argument as to why it's not a believable hypothesis for me that an all-good, all-knowing God put verses in the Bible or allowed people or encouraged people or dictated verses in the Bible that hundreds of millions of Christian, if not a billion plus Christians, interpret as giving free license to beat your children with implements.
That wouldn't make any sense to me at all.
And isn't that the truth?
And I wanted to circle back to you doing the right thing for your wife's sake.
My husband's standing here beside me listening to our conversation and guided me into you and respects you deeply, loves Scott, of course, sip for Scott.
It has been very difficult on our relationship for him to witness my struggles with these, as you said, pathological abusers who do it in the name of God.
It's been a really, I'm grateful that I have a patient, loving, kind, logical, analytical, mathematical husband who's been there on the journey with me.
But I acknowledge and I respect what you say, it has not been fair to him.
Yes, we cannot love someone and also love the people who've done them the most harm.
That's just not psychologically possible.
I can't love my daughter and also love someone who, God forbid, would beat her up.
I can't love my wife and also love people who treat her really badly.
And so it is tough.
And I personally, I'm a big fan of voluntary relationships.
And so you don't have to stay with abusive people and recognize the costs for sure.
And I'm sorry, I just have another couple of people.
I have a little bit of time before I have my next thing today.
So I'm sorry for racing through these final conversations.
Tea Powers, what is on your mind, my friend?
What is in your heart?
Let us unpack our ribbons of history together.
Hey, Steph, can you hear me?
Yes, sir.
Go ahead.
Oh, thank you.
I had a couple of thoughts that I wanted to chime in on.
The question with Christianity, I think, is: how can Christianity possibly protect children if it sets the standard of forgiveness as an internal practice of releasing hurt feelings, so to speak?
I think the inner child requires either restitution or the establishment of boundaries in order to heal.
And the self-erasure of Christian forgiveness is not enough to protect the inner child.
So wondering what your thoughts were on that.
Yeah, to me, it's a form of spiritual welfare in that welfare is giving people money that they have not earned, usually as a result of their bad decisions, like pouring a lot of money into single mothers because they haven't found a good man to get married to, and so on.
When you reward people for bad behavior, like whatever you subsidize, you get more of, whatever you tax, you get less of.
And so if evildoers can remain unrepentant, as was Tyler Robinson, the alleged shooter of Charlie Kirk, was not repentant when Erica Kirk, quote, forgave him a couple of days after he was slaughtered in full public view and so on.
So if forgiveness is given to those who have not earned it, it encourages immorality because people do not suffer the negative consequences of their evil actions.
And so if you do not give people negative consequences for evil actions, but instead give them the positive consequences as if they were moral, then you encourage and subsidize evil at the expense of the good.
Because obviously people who do evil are not motivated by virtue.
They're motivated by cost-benefits.
And it feels better in the moment, say, to hit your child or shoot an enemy than it does to reason with them or learn how to debate better or whatever it is, encourage them or inspire them to change their course of action.
Violence and abuse are hedonistic fundamentally.
And so if people are hedonists, then they're only going to become, quote, better or worse based upon positive or negative feedback because they don't care about morals.
They don't care about their conscience.
They only care about satisfying their immoral lusts for violence or sex or satisfaction of their addiction in the moment.
And so evil people, by definition, run on cost-benefit analysis.
And if you give rewards such as forgiveness to unrepentant evildoers, they have far less to fear from doing evil.
And you also have two people, let's say two people, they've done something evil, Bob and Doug.
And Bob is kind of, oh, maybe I should apologize.
Maybe I should make restitution because I want to fix the relationship.
I want to improve things and blah, blah, blah.
And Doug doesn't want any of those things.
And then Bob looks at Doug and Doug is fully forgiven.
He's absorbed back into the community.
He pays no social price or moral price for his evil deeds.
Then Bob's going to be like, well, I don't want to go through the whole struggle of becoming a better person and making restitution and apologizing because I just get the rewards anyway.
So unfortunately, it does encourage that.
And of course, this is a Nietzschean observation that Christianity first felt its full flower and spread among the slave classes in the ancient world.
And slave castes, the slave classes cannot achieve the good.
They are helpless and powerless in social circumstances.
And so they can provide forgiveness.
They do not have as the requirement that their master earn their forgiveness.
It is a way of living with slavery to feel that you're morally superior because you're forgiving people, but it's only because it's an old Nietzsche quote again.
It's funny how many people call themselves virtuous when the truth is they just have no clause.
And so I do think that the provision of virtue, sorry, the provision of forgiveness without the requirement for apologies, restitution, and a reasonable commitment as to how and why it's not going to happen again is encouragement of immorality rather than a barrier to it.
And I think it comes from a place of almost infinite weakness.
And when you are weak and you accept it, that's reasonable, right?
I don't go and do a whole bunch of gymnastics because I'm 59.
So it's rational to accept where you are weak and older.
But it is cowardice to act on the principles of weakness when you're not weak.
So if you are a slave and you cannot affect any positive moral change in those around you and you cannot hold your masters or anyone else to account, sure, why not?
I mean, forgive others if it makes you feel better and so on.
But when you're not actually a slave, but you act with the mentality of a slave, that's cowardice by definition.
And it's to be opposed, in my view.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It passes the power in the wrong direction.
Instead of passing power to children to expect protection, it passes it up to the parents and even through the state and up to God.
And I think that this is what you're talking about is why Christianity can't protect the West from being invaded and overrun, because God sets the standard of rationality at the level of divine dictate, right?
Essentially, the followers must follow his commandments because he says so.
And that if we do not abide by him, that we face the transcendent rewards and punishment of heaven and hell.
And that's like, that's foundationally authoritarian.
And so it justifies the state's claim to dictate law because it said so and because it has the power.
And it also sets the standard of parenting rationalization at an authoritarian level of because an authority told you to, so to speak.
So I don't think that Christianity is therefore compatible with peaceful parenting.
Certainly it is an argument from authority and all arguments of authority eventually rely upon force.
All right.
I appreciate your call.
Sorry to be racing through.
Carl has been very patient.
And if you want to be my last caller, it's been a good old long show.
And I really, really, I love you guys for this conversation.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Not just for me, but for all of the people who listen to this who get to reason about things in a different way.
Carl, if you want to unmute, please share your thoughts and thank you for your patience.
Hey, Stefan, can you hear me?
Yes, sir.
Hey, good afternoon.
Yeah, just following on the topic.
Really appreciate you bringing this out.
It's really, really hits a nerve, especially as a Christian growing up in Christian communities and dealing with severe injustices and having the only response I ever got was, well, you just need to forgive them and then you'll heal.
And that does spread a sense of powerlessness because if you could get restitution, apologies, and commitments to better behavior from people, wouldn't that be better?
It does this forgive at all costs, forgive no matter what.
Forgive.
It's almost like Hedonism.
You'll feel better.
It's like, well, who cares who feels better?
What's the right thing to do?
Exactly.
Sorry if the mic went out there for a second.
It totally leaves the mess with the victims.
One thing I wanted to say to my fellow Christians out there is if someone's telling you that the solution to a severe wrong being done to you or someone else you know is to forgive them.
What they're telling you is that you're on your own and they will never help you.
They're not on your side.
And so just don't waste a lot of time.
Try and find people who will listen to reason and who will read the portions of the Bible that do say that you should actually, that love means doing good things to others, right?
And evildoers have to pay restitution in order to not be ostracized from the community or punished.
And if you can't find people like that in your community, I would say if you leave now, you're going to save yourself a lot of trouble.
But there are good Christians out there who will listen to reason.
So find them, you know, save some time.
But also, yeah, like how can we stand by with, you know, when we see people right next to us suffering in situations and they never get any help?
One of the reasons that is, is because we have this culture of the solution is forgiveness.
Because when we don't hold people who are doing bad things accountable, they go off and they do it to somebody else.
And when we see that happening to other people and it happened to us and our solution was to forgive, well, we're not going to stand up for them because we never even sit up for ourselves.
So if you're a Christian, you have a problem with this going on in your community.
The answer is stand up.
Stand up for yourself.
Because if you don't, you're not going to stand up for the, you know, the toddler or the teenager, you know, who's being abused by his family.
It's just not going to happen.
Very well stated.
I don't want to interrupt if there's more that you wanted to add to that thought.
Oh, just following along.
Wow, beautiful conversation.
And thank you so much.
I love your work.
And as a Christian, I could say, you know, one of the earlier, one of the other callers was saying, you know, can't you see the wisdom of God leading you to be the philosopher by being abused?
It's like millions of people are abused every day.
But hey, like you actually became a philosopher and you shared the light of truth with us and you've actually improved my life and I really appreciate it.
No, and that's a very powerful thought and I'll just expand on that a tiny bit and thank you for that.
Thank you for all of that.
So imagine that there are a bunch of people who get shot and most of them die.
A few of them live with crippling injuries.
A few of them live with less crippling injuries.
A few of them seem to recover but still have scars.
Scars From Life-Ending Shots00:03:39
But then there's one guy out of the million who got shot that got shot through the neck and the bullet removed a tumor that would have grown and killed him.
The bullet just cleanly removed the tumor and he ends up, his life is saved by being shot through the neck.
So when people say to me, well, Steph, but your suffering has been turned to good and you've done a lot of good in the world, which you wouldn't have done because of your suffering.
And I think that this last caller, Kyle's point, is very powerful and I appreciate it.
It's like, well, sure.
So I got a tumor shot out through the neck.
And let's say it didn't do any particular other harm to me.
I've got a little bit of a scar.
But being shot saved my life.
Well, what about the other 999,999 people to whom getting shot was a pure negative?
You can't look at the one person who gets a tumor blown away.
Or let's say it's something even that the shot just grazed my arm, but it happened to get rid of some skin cancer cells that would otherwise have killed me.
I mean, you don't look at that and say, that's a good thing, being shot.
Because there's a few, quote, miraculous examples of people who flourish despite child abuse.
I happen to have an extraordinarily rare intellect and willpower.
The willpower, I've cultivated the intellect, I've certainly shaped, but I was just kind of born with it.
You would not look at me and say, this is a typical result of child abuse any more than you would say, well, you know, of those million people who were shot, you know, they were all saved.
Nope.
No, most of them were killed or grievously wounded, crippled, or left with permanent scars.
One in a million might have his tumor shot away, but that's not how you would judge shooting people.
So I think that is a very excellent and important point.
And I do thank everyone for this call today.
I'm sorry, Will, you kind of came and went.
I will have to stop here because I have another appointment and I also have to eat.
Oh, the needs of the body.
The spirit is willing, but the flesh is peckish.
All right.
Lots of love, everyone.
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