March 10, 2026 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
02:10:41
My Partner is an ALCOHOLIC! CALL IN SHOW
Stefan Molyneux analyzes a caller's toxic partnership with an alcoholic named Alan, who drives company vehicles while intoxicated despite legal risks of negligent entrustment. Stefan argues that modern spirituality and business often prioritize comfort over moral accountability, enabling corruption much like psychotropic drugs mask obesity. Drawing from his own history of estranging himself from manipulative family members, he concludes that retaining unrepentant addicts destroys long-term viability; one must sever ties with those who cannot listen to reason rather than sacrificing integrity for short-term financial gain. [Automatically generated summary]
So if you can stay off names and places, I'm I would appreciate that.
And I'm all here.
How can I best help?
Well, thank you for that.
And I guess I did create an outline.
Kind of what I wanted to talk to you about is it's it's about my business, which has been going on for about four years now.
And I'm kind of like lost on if I'm doing the right thing and what should I do in the future.
And I think I kind of broke it down into how my business works between me and my business partner, the culture that our business is, and then personally, how that affects my life.
So one thing is that, so as far as my partnership, my business partner works less than I do, like 30 hours, and I work like 40 hours.
And there's like a couple of different things that bothers me.
I'm not really sure if I should be bothered about it or if I should just let it go because maybe I'm making enough money to make that right.
You know?
Okay.
Got it.
Go ahead.
So, so there's the hours thing, right?
Because we just get paid at the end of the week no matter what.
But the difference in hours bothers me.
Then there's some issues that, well, like for instance, that he we recently got him a brand new truck.
I have an old van that I drive around.
He does bring in the customers, like all the contacts.
It's all word of mouth and stuff.
But and maybe that helps to where, you know, it makes sense for him to work a little less, I guess.
One thing that concerns me is that there's a lot of drinking going on, you know, while driving the company vehicle, you know, everywhere.
And that concerns me.
And this kind of welds into the, blends into the culture aspect of our business is when like last year when I took I took a leave leave of absent just for a couple of weeks on like vacation, he spontaneously took my, our employee, we only have one employee on a trip to Georgia with the company truck.
And I know that they drunk drove the whole way.
And I just, I guess so I'd like to ask you if any, since you've been in the business world, I know you've had, you've been very successful in it.
Have you ever dealt with a business partner?
Is it right to do that?
Am I, do I have any reason for this sort of stuff to upset me?
Do you have any reason for the fact that your partner is drunk driving your company truck?
Oh, you mean, like, why does he do that?
No, no.
Like, I'm sorry.
I mean, that is a huge deal.
Why, why wouldn't that be a huge deal?
Um, I think that when we first started, like, years ago, we would have a few drinks.
You know, um, I have since I only drink with friends when I'm at home, basically.
That's how I do it.
And it's usually like two beers a week.
He is so I think like that atmosphere that I probably have a hand in starting, like where he's, we've always been, hey, let's get together, let's have a beer.
And that's gotten to the point now where it's not just like, like he uses that truck.
It went from, okay, this is a business truck to use that truck everywhere he goes, including a 20-hour trip, you know, where literally like a, like a cooler in the back seat full of beer, just going, you know, ended up getting in an accident.
I don't know if that's related or not.
I think he's, you know, he's, I get, so a part of this is like a culture that possibly I had a hand in creating, never stopped.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, go ahead.
Well, I'm just like, let's see.
What else can I tell you about it?
So, yeah, I mean, he's very, very competent.
I think he's more competent than I am.
Just like, if I think we took an IT chest, I think it would be pretty clear, you know, and that's cool.
But it's led to him being able to drink like very, very heavily bar to bar and, you know, doesn't usually get in accidents.
But it's like, man, like, I don't like that stuff.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, and yeah, I don't know.
Cause it's like, well, I thought about it, sure.
I thought about like, hey, like, you shouldn't be drinking and driving the company truck, but at the same time, like, this is his, his vehicle that we replaced his old vehicle with, and he's doing stuff on his own time.
It's not like he's going to work drunk.
So I don't know what to do.
All right.
Have you, I mean, the first question with these kinds of things, I mean, there's moral issues and questions, but the first question that I would ask is a legal question, which is, are you liable if you know that this guy has a drinking problem and he has a company truck?
Okay.
And the answer, the answer, I don't know the answer.
I'm not a lawyer, right?
Unacceptable Risk of Drunk Driving00:09:57
But AI, this is what AI says, not legal advice, but AI says yes, a company can be sued and held liable if an employee drinks and drives a company truck.
Oh, yeah, companies face vicarious liability if the drunk driving occurred within the scope of employment.
The employee was making deliveries or using the truck for work duties, even if intoxicated.
Courts assess if the act benefited the company or was job-related.
Off-duty personal use after hours is typically shields the company.
And this applies nationwide with variations by state.
Ah, but here's the challenge to me.
That's one challenge.
The second is: if the company knew or should have known the employee was unfit, observed intoxication or prior DUIs, and still let them drive the truck, plaintiffs can sue under negligent entrustment.
Examples include poor background checks or ignoring warning signs like drinking on site.
A Philadelphia case awarded $15.57 million partly against a broker for failing to vet a drunk driver's history.
So, yeah, so I mean, as far as that goes, I mean, obviously, it's wrong to let a guy drive drunk if there's anything you can do to avoid it, but it would be a disaster for you, legally, financially, and so on, and for your business if this guy does something or harms someone while driving drunk.
And that would be, I mean, morally, it's wrong.
And I mean, obviously, anyone can say whatever they want, but to me, that would be an unacceptable risk.
It would be morally wrong and an unacceptable risk for losing everything.
Okay.
Well, that, yeah, I just wrote that down, like legal.
I put dull, duh.
Like, that makes, yeah.
If you know he's good, if you know he's drunk driving and he drunk drives using company property and he's doing something for the company, he's driving for the company, then the target is on you.
Yeah, I totally get what you mean.
Yeah.
And then I'm like, yeah, and the thing is, I know that that, what will that, like, then I think, like, well, okay, well, what will that mean if I did, like, hey, like, hey, that's not right.
How will that go?
If I had to guess, it would be doing it.
Yeah.
Even like, and this is like basically what I, who I would consider my, my closest friend and business partner.
I think he would do it behind my back.
He would just be careful that he didn't mention it anymore.
You know what I'm saying?
I think that's that would happen.
Okay.
So listen, I mean, we're in the realm of legal advice, so you need to talk to a lawyer.
But if you know he has a drinking problem that's not been addressed and you've known it for years and he uses the company truck, then I'm not sure that that would shield you.
I mean, let's just talk morally, right?
Let's just talk morally because now it sounds like you're trying to trick morality.
Well, just don't tell me, right?
Well, I'm not saying, no, no, I wouldn't say that.
I'm just saying that's what I think that he would be like, all right, all right, I'll cool it down and give a month, you know, because I know he's, for instance, like he's trying to stop drinking.
Because I'm fairly sure, okay.
Some of now, now this is getting into stuff that I can't say for certain, but I have the feeling that his last truck he crashed while drunk, but it was his personal vehicle, and he just said, oh, yeah, it just broke, like the axle or whatever broke.
And I was like, oh, okay.
And that axle broke.
Well, that's his axle just broke.
Yeah, one of the strongest conversations.
That's one of the strongest parts of the entire truck.
It's the one thing they built to never break.
Well, yeah.
And then, like, he told me afterward on a totally separate note.
And I'm not the smartest tool in the shed, but like at some point, I'm fairly certain he was like, Yeah, I got so drunk that I missed the whole weekend.
I woke up at the end of the weekend and I didn't know what happened.
Right.
But he forgot that that was the weekend that his truck broke.
Right.
Right.
So I'm fairly certain he was doing some crazy stuff.
So he's getting blackout drunk for an entire weekend.
Well, that weekend.
And then he stopped drinking for like a couple weeks and then went right back into it.
So, okay.
So, bro, is a serious alcoholic.
That's the thing.
If you talk to him, he's like, I'm not an alcoholic.
I could stop at any point.
Okay, I'm not talking to him.
Okay.
Everybody knows alcoholics will deny.
I mean, they're not as bad as weed users, but everyone knows that alcoholics will deny.
So I'm talking about if he's getting blackout drunk for an entire weekend and doesn't know, and he's driving, then in my view, he just belongs in jail.
I fucking hate those people.
I really do.
I'll just be straight up.
I fucking hate those people.
No, seriously.
Because he's out there blackout drunk, tooling around in a 6,000-pound gasoline-filled bomb.
And there are innocent people out there with their kids.
There are innocent people out there just trying to get to work.
And this guy's barreling along, barely conscious.
Yeah.
The guy's guy's, he's a, he's a fucking murder waiting to happen.
Yeah, I think he just thinks he's trash.
I don't care what he thinks.
Stop going to what he thinks.
I don't care what he thinks.
Okay.
This is evil.
He's putting other people's lives directly at risk and multiple people's lives.
It's terrible.
I mean, do you have kids?
Yes, I do.
Okay.
What if this guy is blackout drunk and creams one of your kids goes right up on the sidewalk or your kid doesn't even need to be crossing the road?
I mean, what if your kid is out there learning?
You know, you just got their license and this guy teep owns him in an intersection because he's blitzed out of his brain.
Yeah.
I mean, he's been blacked out drunk in the past.
He might have already had a hit and run, just not been caught.
Yeah, that's the thing is, I don't know what goes on.
You know, there's a lot of trust there that, well, it's like when they went down to that trip, like they hit something.
They both said, you know, we couldn't have avoided it, but like, you'd never know, though, unless you were sober.
Right.
Right.
And this is all stuff that I picked up.
It's not like they're like, yeah, we just went drunk driving.
It's like, but like different conversations.
I'm like, oh, okay, so you had a cooler invent and your wife had a problem with that.
And then like another conversation, it's like, yeah, we hit something.
You know, I mean, the chuckling, it's a bit disconcerting.
I mean, if this guy is like, if this guy was in a crowd, you know, just randomly shooting bullets in the air, you'd have a problem with it, right?
Yes, sir.
And drunk drivers kill a lot of people.
And put, and here's the thing.
They don't even just kill them directly.
I mean, they don't even have to hit anyone to get someone killed because if somebody's drunk driving, their driving is bad.
And, you know, maybe they change lanes without warning.
Someone has to avoid them and plows into someone else.
Yeah.
So this is, I mean, obviously the legal liability is pretty significant and important, but the moral liability that you're giving a drunk guy an incredibly dangerous weapon and putting him out on the road at 70 miles an hour.
Yeah, I think you're right.
Yeah, I take it too, like it's gotten to this point and it shouldn't have, you know, I should have been, I had to call you and like, yeah, I mean, I shouldn't have taken that, you know.
So how many people die every day in alcohol impaired driving crashes?
Got to be in the U.S. alone, 10,000 people or something.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So I mean, you're right.
I think the latest date is 2023.
So it's 12,429 people killed.
Wow.
Worldwide, it's 273,000.
And three-quarters of a million annual deaths to alcohol-related injuries, like traffic crashes, and 2.6 million total alcohol deaths.
So 2.6 million.
So, I mean, it's one death every 42 minutes.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's funny.
So just as a, it's not funny, but like just as an anecdote, I was having, I was talking with our employee, and at some point we were talking about someone and I was like, man, that guy's, this other guy's, he's an alcoholic.
And my employee was like, well, what's wrong with that?
Right.
It's a bad, it's a bad culture.
It's a bad culture.
I mean, so like it sounds like you don't even need to hear anything else.
Well, so it was just so, just so you know, it's almost the same as same as, I mean, it's similar to gum gun homicides.
So 37 people a day are killed by drunk drivers or die.
The people die because of drunk driving.
And 47, sorry, 49 gun homicides a day.
And if your friend was going to a gun range drunk, you'd consider that very dangerous, right?
Comparison Keeps Him Sober00:08:36
Yes, sir.
So help me understand.
You said he's your best friend, which, you know, I mean, I'm not going to obviously rag on you about that.
But, but, well, how long?
How long have you known each other?
I've known him 10 years.
Okay.
And for how long has he had a drinking problem?
I would say that whole time.
Okay.
And what has your response been to his drinking problem?
I've been poor at telling him it's wrong, you know, other than, you know, I think it's like, it's like if you met someone who had all their, the most high-functioning person, don't, please don't take this as an excuse because I should have said something, but like from the get-go, like someone who had all of his impairs in order, but drank heavily, like with after work kind of thing, would drink heavily after work.
That's the person.
And so, you know, maybe always disguising it, though, like, you know, yeah, I drank last night or whatever.
And then over the years, you know, obviously I find out like he, he can drink like 10, 12 beers and be completely fine or whatever.
And he worked at, he had a very high paying job before he left to start this business with me.
So I would say successful.
And, you know, if I just, yeah, but yes, had the alcohol and I would drink too.
I just like, oh, and also, I should tell you, this is like a physiognomy difference or whatever, but like, has no hangovers.
If I drink two beers, I've got hangovers.
So there's an, there's a, my body's saying, no, you can't have too many beers or whatever.
So it's like limited, no hangover whatsoever.
So there's not that like aftermath, you know, saying, please don't take it as an excuse.
I'm just okay.
And but when did you, I think you said that you had cut back on your drinking?
Yeah.
Well, yeah, I mean, I've never really drinked a ton ton, but I would say yes, particularly recently.
Um, in the last five years, I didn't know anything that it affects IQ.
So had no idea, like literally just thought that's the way you do things.
And so I just have a rule now that I just don't drink alone.
So that cuts down on like 99% of the beers.
So, and he knows that.
Where I'll be like, oh, I can only have one more or something, you know.
And now, like my driving instructor, I say this, like we have a poker night, for instance.
And I tell people, like, my driving instructor told me that as long as you have less than a beer an hour, you're fine.
So I usually go an hour and a half between a beer, a light beer, and I know I'm good to drive.
You know, I'll say that.
And that's how I ensure that I don't drink too much.
All right.
And what about your friend?
Would you give me a name that's not his name?
Alan.
Alan.
Okay.
All right.
Okay.
So what does Alan do with regards to drinking?
He doesn't worry about that sort of thing.
He, you know, it's definitely ramped up recently.
I think it's, it has to do with going from that high-paying job, the huge demands where he was able to, you know, work, work, work, work, and then drink, and it really didn't matter.
Now with the freedom, the less work, the, okay, well, we're here.
Let's grab a beer here and then go here and grab a beer here, you know, and the things, you know, some of it is like the, oh, we got parent future conferences.
Like, let's go, let's go get a couple beers in us before we go.
That's the sort of stuff that has gotten out of control.
I don't think he ever did that before.
Okay.
And how is Alan's life as a whole, do you think?
Well, that has not taken a hit, I would say.
No, no, I don't mean just relating to his drinking.
I mean, you said his drinking has escalated, and often that has to do with things not going well in someone's life.
Yeah, I would say the opposite because he finds that his significant other is more happy, you know, and people are more happy.
And so he, for instance, I even talked to him about like how it could affect his health.
And he was like, we talked about it and ultimately life is so much better with it, you know, saying, so yeah, I would say it hasn't.
Yeah, I think, I think that wouldn't happen to anyone else because there's always that shack, like, I can't drink that much and not be sick the next day and miss my kids this.
And that just doesn't happen with him.
So I would say not hasn't affected him.
Okay.
So he's, he's married, right?
Oh, yes.
And does he have kids?
Yes, sir.
Okay.
So why would he be drinking this much if he if he's relatively happily married and and uh he wants to be a good father?
I mean, you can't be a good father and drink that much, right?
And well, yeah, I mean, you know, that's just that's such a personal opinion.
I don't know.
I would say total has an air of confidence, like everything's going great, a belief in God that it'll all work out.
You know, I'm not a, I don't believe in God, so I kind of stop at that sort of thing, but, or I don't know if God exists, but he's like, absolutely, he does, and he wants to be happy and he keeps blessing me, and so I'll keep doing what I'm doing.
He keeps what?
Like, he like if you talk to him, he would say, like, God, God keeps blessing me, so I'm going to keep doing as I'm doing.
I'm not going to change anything.
Keeps busting him?
Oh, no, no.
God keeps blessing him.
Oh, blessing.
Sorry.
Sorry.
My mistake.
Sorry.
Okay.
Got it.
Yeah.
I understand.
God keeps blessing him.
Okay.
All right.
And do you know when Alan started drinking?
18 years old.
And, you know, he's in his 40s now.
Okay.
Got it.
So, I mean, he's been a lifelong alcoholic, or at least from what you know.
Yeah.
Okay.
And do you know if anybody in Alan's life has really sort of committed to trying to get him to stop drinking?
No.
Okay.
Absolutely not.
And does his wife also drink?
Yes.
Right.
And do you know, I mean, I assume you know his kids, right?
Yes.
And do you think his kids would prefer it if their parents did not drink?
I mean, they're all under the age of 18.
I know what the definition of kids is.
No, I know what you mean.
That could be older offspring.
Okay, but first, would they prefer that their parents didn't drink?
Would that be better for them?
I mean, this is really like hypothetical, but like, I mean, yeah, I would think so, you know, if I had an opinion, because I think that, you know, money-wise, I mean, the money that they spend, the time that they spend away from them, you know, I would say my opinion.
Yeah.
And it's tough to emotionally connect with people.
Right.
It's tough to connect with people when they're drunk, right?
Right.
Right.
I think there's also another person that is worse.
And you're going to laugh because it's like, how can someone be worse?
But yes, there is someone that's close to them that's even worse and that has that, you know, drink and then call out or work or drink and you know is having their lives hurt by this sort of thing.
And it's kind of this comparison.
I can hear it.
I hear it.
I hear it from time to time this comparison.
Well, like, we're not like that guy, you know, kind of thing.
And sorry.
And who's that?
Oh, that's just a close friend of theirs.
Okay.
Of Alan's.
Yeah.
Close friend of Alan.
So it's like this comparison, you know.
So.
Oh, like he says, I'm not as bad as that guy, right?
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Like when I say on X, you can't parent while high, and people say, well, you can't parent while drunk either.
It's like, that's not the conversation.
That's not what we're talking about.
Okay.
All right.
I know a worse serial killer is not a defense of a serial killer.
Business Structure vs. Stability00:03:22
All right.
Okay.
And what does your wife think of Alan?
Alcoholic.
Okay.
And what does she think of your personal and business association with Alan?
Well, that's the thing is I basically wanted to quit a lot.
And well, I should tell you, my wife's just more conservative.
So she's always, she has anxiety.
It's just, she doesn't want to tip the boat.
So when things have to happen, I have to say, we're doing this.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, so she likes the stability.
She wants me to make it work.
But at the same time, she knows that he's a raging alcoholic and will say negative things that he's a raging alcoholic.
Okay.
And how long have you been in business together?
Four years.
Okay.
Now, tell me a little bit about the business structure.
Are you both co-owners or how does it work in terms of the legality of the business structure?
Yes, sir.
And I appreciate you getting to the nitty-gritty of this with me.
50% straight down the board.
Ownership.
Nature of the business is it's a contracting business.
And he basically handles the day-to-day operations and sometimes works on job site.
And then I'm primarily on the job site.
It's that's part of the culture that I don't like.
That it's kind of like the Wild West because we have a bunch of small jobs to get to.
And it's like, you know, like quick go to this one.
I don't monitor where he is.
I'm assuming he's doing what he's supposed to be doing.
And but he's often gone.
And the it's just, it's not like a clock in it this time and go at this time.
Like a work you know, get get there when you can at the, when the customer is ready for you, and then leave when you run out of stuff to do kind of deal.
So it's kind of um, I don't like that.
That's a part of the culture that I that i'm like is this the wrong job for me?
As a person that's not able to be fluid?
And I, I want registration of rules.
Alan doesn't want that, he wants fluid.
You know our employee or future employees will, will be there when we need them, and if they can't, you know whatever.
Okay, all right, and give me a.
You don't have to give me exact figures, of course, but give me a rough estimate on uh, how much you think the business could be sold for.
Um well, it's really hard because I it's not like well, and if you do have the understanding that, so client lists, but because we don't have like basically a one, a really tried into country customer that we have only has one more job left and they're probably they probably would have no need to hire us again.
They've hired us as many times as they can, but there's probably only one more job to grab.
You know, i'm saying, and that's often, you know.
So it's like.
It's like you know, they fixed their bathroom, we did their kitchen.
Now there's only the, the dining room.
You know a little dravel in the dining room to take care of.
The Last Job in the House00:08:33
So um, you know, so we I we, we about each make 70 grand a year.
I i'm not really sure that that would sell off.
So probably, you know, according to Dave Ramsey, I think the deal is that if you have a business like mine, you're really selling equipment tools, possibly a name.
If someone was like that name is great, i'll take the assets.
You know, the company van, that sort of thing.
So I guess the answer to your question is, you know 50 000 60 000 okay yeah yeah, okay.
So uh, it's not like you could, you couldn't easily buy him out or anything.
It sounds like, oh well, because if he probably would over yeah, because if he's making 60, 60 or so k a year, then he's not going to take 25k or 50k or whatever it is to be bought out, because that's just like a year's salary right um yeah, complete man, that's a.
That's a Really good question.
And that's kind of why I wanted to talk to you because I know you've had business experience.
Yeah.
Well, it would probably, you know, probably like 20 grand.
Yeah, that may be what it would take if it was like a it would be hostile, you know, if that, if I can use that word, probably can't in such a small business, but like, no, no, you can.
I mean, yeah, so, so he has no, yeah, he has no incentive to sell at the moment, right?
No, you know why?
Because his wife works, so it's like if he loves it, because he's able to go from, you know, go pick up his kids, then go into the office, do some work, you know, drop off.
He's got ultimate flexibility, and addicts need that.
Is that right?
Oh, yeah, of course.
Because, I mean, he wants the freedom to not have a regular schedule.
And if he had a regular schedule, it would be tougher to be an alcoholic.
Wow.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm not saying that's the only reason, but he goes and picks up his kids.
And, you know, I mean, obviously, we don't know, but if he picks up his kids drunk, I mean, this is just all kinds of terrible stuff.
Yeah, I think that, yeah.
So, so, yeah, sorry to interrupt.
And he shows up at parent-teacher conferences drunk.
Right.
Definitely.
That happens.
That's that's something that is new.
That I was like, holy cow.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, should I have said something way before?
Yes.
About a year ago, I told him that this situation was not fair.
I was not okay with it.
I wanted to leave.
There was a host of reasons.
I did not list alcoholic as one of them.
Probably should have.
And he bribe would probably come to mind in the sense that he was like, how much money do you need?
We'll make it whatever you want.
Like trying to.
And yeah, I just, I don't see, I don't see a complete overhaul of the whole culture and his lifestyle.
So, but, but, anyways, all that being said is that, you know, he plus he only wants to work 10 more years.
He wants to work 10 more years and then pack it in.
And so that doesn't seem like a good future.
Anyways.
Okay.
All right.
So it doesn't seem like he's going to have any luck or there's any momentum within his social environment to get him to stop drinking.
I don't think so.
I think if I, like I said, I think if I mentioned it to him and talked about it with him, I think he would just hide it more.
Yep.
Okay.
And also, if he's been, if, if it's escalating, like it doesn't get better from here, right?
Well, yeah, I'm getting that from talking with me, yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
So his drinking is getting worse.
There's no social momentum.
Like, you know, if his wife wanted him to really stop drinking, then maybe you could stage an intervention or something like that, which would be, you know, pretty, pretty powerful, right?
I don't know if you've ever sort of heard of or looked into that kind of thing.
Yes, sir.
Yes, sir.
But yeah, I don't really have any advocates on that route, you know.
Right.
So, so his wife is relatively happy to have him continue drinking because she also drinks.
Yes.
It's kind of like a stressors of the day.
Let's go drink.
And then.
Okay.
All right.
So how did you get into business with this guy knowing he had a drinking problem?
Good question.
I would say, okay, I will say this.
I think my brother's pretty smart in this matter.
And we've talked about this on why, because my brother's not a drinker, so he can see it from an outside perspective.
A cult to personality, you know, real, a real talent, like leader for men.
And he showed that.
And that's why I think he got successful.
And he used alcohol in the sense that he would be like, all right, team, let's go get a beer.
We got done early.
Let's go get a beer.
And that cascaded, and I fell into that.
And then once you get into business, I went with someone, though.
And over the years, I've stopped.
So I've gone the opposite.
I went from a, you know, maybe, you know, 10 beers or so a week to one or two.
It really clears the mind.
I don't have any excuse.
I'm a terrible judge of character, probably.
Well, but that kind of description doesn't aid understanding, right?
So this Alan, not only does he drink, but he also encourages other people to drink.
Yes.
Yes.
So he's trying to manufacture more alcoholics.
That, yeah.
And believes.
Yeah.
So, I mean, and that to me is far more inexcusable than simply just drinking yourself.
You know, I was sort of, I just posted this this morning before the call, but like, you know, the problem with the weed heads is not just that they do weed, but they're constantly saying it's natural, it's healthy, it's good, it's wonderful, it's positive, it's just a plant.
You know, we're designed, we've got cannaboid receptors, it's nature's gift, it's, you know, enlightenment.
Like they're constantly pushing all the time.
They're pushers.
They're not just users.
They're pushers.
And so, so, so, with this guy, it's one thing if he's an alcoholic, that's bad enough.
But if he's also encouraging and facilitating drinking in others, then he's not just a user, he's a pusher.
He's trying to normalize his own behavior by having other people reproduce what he's doing.
And you know what?
If you're chock full of a disinhibitor, it's pretty easy to be charismatic.
Interesting point.
Yeah.
Right?
Because I mean, do you know alcohol?
It disinhibits people.
So they could be cocky.
They could be confidence.
And a lot of people will mistake that for confidence when all it is is they've lobotomized their social processing with alcohol.
So they appear to be somewhat fearless and cool and self-expressed.
And it's like, but it's just, they've just taken down their inner social inhibitors, right?
Yeah, and I remember like things that he used to tell me because also this is the guy he also got me my start when I was working for the company that he worked at.
He was my mentor for a time.
So I was kind of like this, like, man, you just need a beer.
Like, like, you're doing fine.
Oh, oh, also.
Okay, Stefan.
Here's the thing.
I realized that he recently, and it's so bad that I didn't notice this, but he uses flattery, patronizing very, very well and disguises it very, very well.
And I didn't notice it.
But as the relationship's gotten so strained, I started to notice, you know, that sort of thing.
Like, man, you're just so good.
You keep on this route.
You'll be doing great.
And it's like, but I've heard him be sarcastic, but like recently, I've heard him be sarcastic in that way.
And where I'm like, wait, you just said that in the same way that you've told me, like, all intents and purposes, sincerely, now you're using it as a tool.
And I'm like, wait a minute, which is the ruse, you know?
Praying for Guidance That Never Comes00:14:22
Oh, yeah.
It's like the woman, the guy's like, oh, you're so beautiful.
You're the greatest thing, you know?
And then she just hears him use that line on some other girl.
And it's like, well, it's just a line.
It's just a line.
But yeah, I mean, addicts are liars.
They're manipulators.
That's that's their deal.
Yeah, I think like I used to be a Christian.
I was raised Christian.
And so, you know, he would, you would think, I mean, you know, he goes to church.
He, we may talk about philosophical issues and stuff like that.
And we're aligned that way.
And yeah, hides that drinking well, or it's just with friends, but then you find out, you know, it's throughout the day and it's constant state of buzz.
So I guess that's why.
Well, and it's really sad.
Of course, this is one of the things that turns people off about Christianity is that how is he part of a church, part of an entire religious circle?
How is he part of a church?
And nobody seems to have come down on him about this.
You are really right there.
You are really right there.
Yeah.
And not just a member, but like high up there.
Member.
Right.
I mean, this is the big challenge, which is everybody is, I assume, everybody in his church is praying to God for guidance.
God, tell me the right thing to do.
God, tell me what I need to do to be a better person.
Is there anyone in my life who needs counsel and help?
God, speak to me, tell me, speak to me, tell me.
And either God doesn't know this guy's a raging alcoholic, or he does know, but he's not telling people, or he knows and he's telling people, but they just don't care that God is telling them stuff.
Like, none of it adds up to Christianity at all.
It's quite the opposite.
Of course, God knows everything.
So God knows this guy's a dangerous alcoholic.
And when people pray for guidance, God is certainly going to tell them.
So either people are praying for guidance and there's no God, which is, you know, of course, my perspective.
And so they don't get any knowledge.
Like, I can't remember the last time I talked to a Christian, and I talked to quite a few, and I can't remember the last time I talked to a Christian who said, well, I prayed to God and God told me something that really shocked me.
And I have to do stuff now that I really, really, really don't want to do.
You know, like in this congregation, right?
Oh, you know, God, I prayed to God for guidance and how to be a better person and who needs help.
And God said, listen, Alan is a dangerous alcoholic.
And so you, to be a good follower of Jesus, you need to get him to stop drinking no matter what.
Right.
And that's, I mean, maybe you've heard of or seen Christians who do that.
I've never heard or seen of a Christian.
I mean, this was my, this is sort of my complaint about my childhood that I was surrounded by Christians who were praying to God for guidance.
And, you know, my mother was dangerous, crazy, and violent.
And they all knew that because they'd met her.
I mean, this is my father's family in particular, all solid Christians, you know, took me to church.
And of course, I went to boarding school and I went to church twice a week, was in the choir, a lot of time spent studying the Bible and so on.
And everybody was praying for guidance.
And not one person said, oh, God has pointed me towards you, Steph, as a wounded member of his flock.
And this is why I couldn't, I just couldn't believe in any of it.
I mean, how is it possible that this guy's embedded high up in a church structure?
Everybody's praying to God for guidance.
And this guy's drunk driving and God isn't saying a thing about it.
How is that even remotely possible?
Yeah.
Funnily enough, is when we started this business, he told members of the congregation that he was starting this business.
And they asked, where does your partner go to church?
Like they were concerned about my salvation, making sure that he had a equally yoked.
You're familiar with the Bible.
So equally your business partner, but standing before them as someone with a, with a very serious issue.
Yeah.
So what would you dealt with some excessive drinking on your issue, on your part, and he hasn't, right?
Right.
So, yeah, that to me, I mean, that to me would be an empirical test of religion.
And unfortunately, people just consistently, they just consistently fail it because they'll never say, you know, I never really thought of Alan as a drinker.
But I was praying last night and God very clearly told me that Alan was a dangerous, heavy drinker and I needed to get him to stop drinking for the sake of his children and for the sake of those who might harm while drinking.
both in terms of driving and other things.
You know, I mean, did you know, says God, did you know that, and I see everything, did you know that Alan starts drinking before parent-teacher conferences?
Do you know that Alan has showed up to work drunk?
Do you know that Alan has showed up to church drunk?
I mean, this is right.
It never happened.
Well, that's their testing.
They're testing their faith by not telling them.
God is testing their faith.
No, it's like the dinosaur bones, right?
Well, the dinosaur bones don't drive drunk.
So they're not going to get anyone killed, right?
I mean, I guess maybe in one episode of the show Psych.
Anyway, sorry, that's an obscure reference.
But that's sort of my question.
So, okay, so theological matters aside.
Yeah, so no one's going to stop him from drinking.
And sorry, nobody's going to stop him from drinking.
And also at this point, again, I'm no doctor, but my sort of obviously amateur understanding would be that if he tries to stop drinking, it's going to be dangerous for him physically because that level of dependence on alcohol, if you try to quit, you know, the delirium tremens and like it can be, it can be quite a shock to the system to quit drinking if you've been an alcoholic for, you know, 20 plus years or you've been a heavy drinker for 20 plus years.
It's not quite the same as quitting smoking.
It seems to be much more extreme.
And so, I mean, he would need significant medical supervision and it would need to be an entire concerted effort of the community to get him to stop drinking.
And people who have enabled an alcoholic for many years usually have a very tough time doing an intervention because they feel guilty.
They feel bad.
And usually because they have done wrong.
Because it should be Christian concern for those on the road and Christian concern for his own children that would drive the intervention, right?
That would be that would be the deal.
And so they've been bad Christians by not intervening.
And nobody likes to look in the mirror and say, I have failed my moral code low these many years.
And they also don't like the theological implications.
If you were to say to his church, and I'm not saying you should, right?
But if you were to say to his church, you know, this guy's been an alcoholic for many years, then one of the reasons that people push back hard against that kind of stuff is they say, well, come on.
I mean, I've been praying for guidance.
If there was a problem, God would have told me.
And the idea that they prayed for guidance, that it is a huge issue and God hasn't told them, is kind of unsettling at a very core level for people.
Because, yeah, I mean, I think one of the reasons why people didn't intervene when I was being harmed as a child is in part because they could say, no, no, no, I've prayed on it.
You know, I've prayed to God.
And, you know, God has said, I got it sorted.
It's handled.
Don't worry about it.
It's fine.
Or whatever.
Or if God had, I prayed to God for guidance and who to help.
And God mysteriously told me exactly what was the most comfortable thing for me.
It's amazing how often that happens.
But God didn't say, listen, this is a helpless dependent child is being harmed.
You've got to do something, at least make some anonymous call to get some protective services involved, anything, right?
Just do something.
And of course, so people have said, no, no, no, I've already prayed on it.
And God has not told me to do anything, or God has so told me he's got it sorted or handled, or God has told me it's not as bad as it sounds through these thin walls.
And so if it turns out that they should have done something years ago, but they've been praying for guidance, they want to avoid that because it opens up a giant hole in their theology, right?
Which is, of course, why didn't they do something years ago when somebody is clearly descending into toxic alcoholism?
Well, God didn't tell them to.
Well, what does that mean about God?
Either he ain't good.
No, or he doesn't exist.
Sorry, go ahead.
I was just going to say the church culture is like that, where they've been browbeaten to like, well, we can't judge anybody.
And so no one ever gets even like in a helpful way, like, hey, you're all right.
Like, what's going on?
Yeah, that's the super low-tee, feminized version of Christianity.
Certainly the Christianity I grew up with, there was judgment.
This is why, you know, it's funny enough.
Is I actually tried to join the Catholic Church because I thought the Catholic Church was like, you know, ninety people, like super like, you know, regimented.
There were like real solid people who want to go to war or something like that.
And I went in there and I was like, wow, this is actually like just as bad.
They don't even actually preach anything.
Like, I'm like, this is even worse.
Oh, what do you mean?
What was your experience there?
It was, yeah.
So, like, my, my other mentor who's since passed away, he was a strong Catholic.
And so I was like, well, I want my family to at least have some moral stuff.
So I thought, well, let me try Catholics.
And what I just found was it's just, it's just a little service.
And it was like a one or two minute little diatribe by the, whatever you call the pastor of the Catholic Church.
And I literally walked away with nothing.
It was just like, at least when I went to Protestant church, I would have like a little bit like, you know, forgive your enemies or something like that.
But there wasn't even that.
You know, it was just like, it was, it was about a community member like bringing dinner and, you know, nothing.
So what I wanted was like people being like, you are an alcoholic.
I'm just kidding, but like that.
Well, it would be a difficult moral mission in the world.
Yes.
And what do you what do we men want to do?
We want to go out there and do battle with evil.
We want to do battle with corruption.
We want to go and.
Yes.
But everyone's like, oh, don't move.
Oh, be careful.
Oh, right.
All this sort of feminine caution.
But again, I have no issue with the feminine caution.
That's what keeps us all alive as toddlers, but we ain't toddlers, right?
So, so yeah, I mean, I've been to, I can't even tell you how many thousands of church services I can remember.
The only thing I can really remember, certainly in Canada, there's the all the land acknowledgements, which is kind of bizarre to me.
Like, why would you?
I mean, they're heathens, right?
And so why would you, you brought Christianity and virtue and the possibility of salvation in North America.
Why would you do land acknowledgements?
That doesn't make any sense according to the theology.
Steven, okay.
Okay.
Don't know what happened there, but I guess we're back in one piece, right?
I apologize.
Yeah.
No, you're not talking about.
Yeah, you were just saying how where you were.
The last thing I heard was the churches that you had, how many churches you had been to.
Yeah, I've been to thousands of church services over my life.
And the only one thing I could remember is some priest when I was a kid talking about how God threw Satan into a big pond and then put a sign up saying no fishing.
And I just remember that because that was kind of funny.
And I remember in Canada here, these land acknowledgements.
You know, how sorry, how sorry the church was to be on native land.
And I don't really understand that theologically at all.
I mean, the natives were, according to Christian theology, the natives were heathens.
And they were bringing the possibility of salvation to them and they were bringing eternal life.
And so I don't understand why it would be like a fireman who comes into your house to save you from being burnt to death, who then apologizes for coming into your house.
I don't, I don't, I mean, you're saving people from the fires of hell or simply dying and dying and ending.
You're giving them eternal life, the possibility of eternal bliss.
Why would you be sorry about that?
I didn't really understand the land acknowledgement thing.
And gosh, I mean, yeah, there's some feel-good stuff about be nice to people and maybe don't take things so personally.
And, you know, there's some how to get along better as couples kind of thing.
I mean, it's all just absolute goop and sentimental garbage, as far as I can, as far as I can see.
I mean, there's nothing wrong with, you know, maybe be nicer to people.
Okay, but I mean, that's not really a principle.
That's just cucking.
And of course, I also was told, oh, but you got to go old school, man.
Rejecting Worldly Seduction00:03:34
You got to go Catholicism.
And it's like, well, I've tried to go more Orthodox and it's still the same stuff.
Yes.
Okay.
So you have the same kind of thing.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, because nobody, the question is, do people exhort you to do things that are really difficult and unpleasant?
And I wouldn't consider, you know, if somebody was an expert on what you should eat, if they said, hey, you know, interestingly enough, I think that you should eat whatever tastes best for you in the moment.
I wouldn't say to them, well, that's being an excellent nutritionist because a nutritionist is going to tell you to do things that are uncomfortable.
Like a personal trainer isn't going to say, yeah, stay on the couch, man.
That's that's the way to go.
If that's what feels comfortable for you in the moment, no, he's going to say, you know, get off the couch and get moving and go lift some weights.
Or the nutritionist is going to say, you know, put down the twinkies and the ding-dongs and go have yourself some healthy food.
And they're going to make you uncomfortable.
And I mean, in matters of spirituality and salvation, it would seem to me that discomfort is the key.
And that's baked right into Christianity, right?
That the world is going to seduce you, that the pleasures are going to seduce you, and you have to abjure or reject the things of the flesh and you have to aim for a high spirituality and people are going to hate you for it and all that kind of stuff.
But men can handle being hated.
A lot of women can't.
And so, yeah, so it's all just comfort and fluff and niceness and so on, which, you know, which is fine, except that, you know, the West is kind of dying.
You know, it'd be kind of nice if all of this endless comfort wasn't just being preached.
I'm sorry, go ahead.
Oh, I was just going to say, like, this is, I've been reading the 48 laws of power, and, you know, there's issues with it.
But one of the things I read about how enemies tell you what you don't want to hear, and friends tell you what you do want to hear, it's kind of like, so is having friends basically just to make you feel better?
Sorry, enemies tell you what you don't want to hear.
I don't, I think the exact, I think the enemies try to get you comfortable with things to you.
Interesting.
And enemies, enemies will lie about you for sure.
I mean, I know that one, of course, personally, right?
So enemies will lie about you for sure.
But enemies as a whole will tell you that they will give you excuses for inaction.
Right.
So, oh, it's not that bad.
It's not really happening.
It's fine.
Don't worry about it.
You're bigoted if you notice.
You know, this kind of stuff, right?
And then if you do sort of prove that it's happening, they say, well, it's happening, but it's good and so on.
And then eventually, like when they finally have their power, they'll just turn all the screws completely.
But enemies will, people are always desperate for inaction.
They're desperate to, right?
They're desperate to not have to do anything.
They're desperate to not have to take a stand because taking a stand is kind of dangerous.
And so this is part of the hedonism of the world is that the enemies will say, oh, no, it's fine.
Oh, no, it's not a problem.
Oh, don't be silly.
Oh, it would be bigoted to even think that there's a problem.
It's sort of like, to me, it's like the SSRIs, like the psychotropic drugs.
Like people who are unhappy because they're in corrupt and immoral, often family situations.
And some guy comes along and says, no, no, no, it's just brain chemistry, man.
It's just like, you know, it's just like you were born with diabetes and you've got to take your insulin.
Enemies Desperate for Inaction00:04:09
It's not a moral thing at all, right?
And they're like, oh, thank God, I don't have to morally examine my family and I don't have to be around virtuous people.
Like, oh, it's just brain chemistry.
So they greedily grab for all of this stuff because people are saying, don't act morally, don't confront anyone, don't do anything difficult and just take a pill.
And you see this all the time, like with people, like the Azempic thing to me is kind of similar too.
Like if you're overweight, it probably has to do with some psychological dysfunction.
And of course, you're surrounded by people who didn't strongly intervene when you started gaining weight.
So there's a lack of love.
There's a lack of care.
There's a lack of concern.
It's a whole thing about weight gain.
And so, just take a pill.
Just get your stomach stapled and all of the dysfunction will go away.
And just take a pill and all of the dysfunction will go away.
And everybody just sells you endless excuses to not take a moral stand.
And people are greedy for that.
Sorry, go ahead.
No, no, I totally am with you on that.
I just was going to ask you, though, do you think that your view of the enemies are really, really clever enemies?
But like in the sense of like kind of the backyard bully or just just some, just someone that has your, doesn't like you would in a crowd specifically go like, hey, man, like, did you know that you have buck teeth, you know, or something like that, like, but you really do have buck teeth.
You're like, damn, I really do have bug teeth or something maybe like, man, your hairstyle is just so bad.
And you're like, it really is bad, though.
I should probably get a new hairstyle or something.
Like, well, but what bullies are basically saying to you is you're insecure because you're unprotected.
Right.
So, so, I mean, they've done these studies repeatedly where they ask heartened criminals, they show them videos of somebody walking down the street and they say, well, who would you pick out?
And they always pick out the same people.
You know, the people, tentative eyes darting around, hunched shoulders, nervous affected all of that.
You know, the victims, right?
And so what the bullies are doing is they're saying, you are unprotected.
Now, if a kid is unprotected, can the kid summon protection?
Well, no, because if the kid could summon protection, the bullies wouldn't target them.
And so the bullies know for certain that the kid is unprotected.
So they can, you know, there are kids who have, you know, buck teeth who aren't bullied for it because they're charismatic and cool and fun and all of that kind of stuff.
So what they do is they say, you are unprotected.
So I'm going to hammer on something.
And yeah, I mean, maybe you've got a bad haircut and all that kind of stuff.
But fundamentally, why do you have a bad haircut?
Because you're unprotected.
Oh, interesting.
You have a bad haircut because nobody's caring enough about you to say, bro, you need a glow up.
I think that's the modern phrase or something like that, right?
Right.
So you're unprotected and therefore I'm going to pick on you and I'm going to pick on you for the bad haircut.
And, you know, maybe it helps to be picked on for the bad haircut in terms of maybe you go and get a better haircut, but it doesn't solve the problem that you're unprotected.
Okay.
I think I get where you're coming from.
Yeah.
Okay.
So are you a friend to Alan or not?
Ah, I see where you're going with this.
Okay.
I am not then.
By that definition, I'm not a friend of him.
Well, tell me, tell me what you think.
I should have been saying things from the start.
When he says, I'm going to parent teacher conferences with a couple beers in me.
Right now, I would normally just say nothing.
Like condom, like I would be condemning him, but like with my silence, but that's not nearly enough.
And yeah, I'm a failure to him.
I think you're right.
Well, let me ask, you know, and I don't want you to get down on yourself, right?
Because we're just sort of exploring these ideas.
So you said he was your mentor originally, right?
Yes, sir.
So he gave you encouragement.
Silence as a Failure00:07:12
Yes.
And when you grew up as a child, were you encouraged?
I would say sometimes, not particularly, not by my stepfather.
You know, the stuff like my mom used to say, like, you're such a handsome young man, but I wasn't.
I know that now.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
That's terrible stuff that women do.
But yeah.
I don't think I'm ugly by any means, but yeah, no.
Yeah, I think you're right.
Yeah, I didn't get a lot of, I was bullied at times.
Sometimes constructively, like I took that and was like, yeah, that's, I don't think they're on or something.
Well, what was your relation?
Sorry, how old were you when your father left or your parents split up?
When I was four years old.
And what was the long-term relationship with your father?
Never saw him again.
He died when I was 13, but my mom took me and my brother and moved us from different sides of the U.S., like as far as you can go.
Okay.
And what did your father die of?
A car accident.
Was your father a drinker?
Yes, he was.
Well, isn't that interesting?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And my mom was so fearful of drinking, you know, from that time on.
Oh, so he was a bad drinker?
Yes.
Okay.
I mean, my mom was also a by undiagnosed bipolar real bad, but but yeah, she, he was a drinker.
Yeah.
Okay.
So do you know if drinking was involved in his death?
No, I don't.
Well, you know what?
You never know.
You know, it was in, it was in the morning when he was on his way to work.
Could he have been still hunover?
It's always possible.
It was a really foggy day, and they chalked it up to literally he didn't see the stop sign.
But there is one thing that Roe blew through a stop sign.
Right.
And since he probably, I don't know all this because remember, this is like, I'm living in Florida.
This happened in Washington.
I'm not giving you.
Could you do me a favor?
Just lay off some of the geographical references.
No, I made up geographical points.
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay, that's fine.
Okay.
But like, basically, I had no part of his life.
So, you know, yeah.
Okay.
And how old were you when your stepfather moved in?
Six years old.
Six years old.
Okay.
And what's your relationship like with your stepfather?
Well, he is a, well, my mom since passed, and he lives in a different state a far ways away because then I moved to the state I'm in.
So, you know, distant.
We talk every once in a while.
It's gotten less and less since she passed.
How long ago did your mother pass?
Um, one year ago.
I'm sorry to hear that.
What did she die of?
She died of lung cancer, smoking related.
Oh, so you have some pretty self-destructive addicts in your family.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I would say so.
How long did she, how long did she take to die?
She died within finding out of the cancer nine months.
Yeah, lung cancer is one of the ugliest as far as I've heard.
You're going to find this funny.
The doctors told her it wasn't, it might not be related to the smoking.
Yeah.
Which I found that laughable.
Yeah.
I mean, it seems to me that that's a pretty, pretty big.
I mean, of course, anything's possible, right?
I mean, sure.
Sure.
Okay.
But she ultimately she smoked from when she was 14 to when she was 65.
Yeah, I'm going to go probably relate it.
Right.
Just she was like, yeah, the doctors say it's not really smoking related.
So I don't know how it happened.
Yeah.
Female doctor?
I don't know.
Yeah.
Unfortunately, I was under the biggest, I was doing, and it kind of haunts me, but I was under the biggest pressure of my life.
I was building a house by myself.
So while running the business, and when she got sick, I did get to go see her.
I took time from building the house to go see her, but I wasn't there for it kind of thing.
I guess her husband took care of her while she was dying.
Yes.
Okay.
And did you ever try to get your mother to quit smoking in the decades before she died?
You know what?
I can proudly say that, yes, I did.
At one time, other than I threatened, but I didn't follow through.
I told her that I would start smoking if she didn't stop.
I never did follow through.
That's not a good way to get someone to quit smoking.
Yeah.
Well, I was, yeah, I was like 16 when I said that.
So it wasn't very smart.
And she did, I should say, she did quit smoking at the very, very end.
Okay, but that's not really the point, right?
Like, and people did encourage her to start with vapes and try and get off of it that way.
And she did do that.
And yeah.
Okay.
So why do you think you didn't take a stronger stand with getting your mother to quit smoking?
Which is to say, look, I'm not, if you're going to kill yourself, I'm not going to be around to watch it.
I mean, that's the intervention is if you don't quit this dangerous, horrible habit, I'm not going to be in your life.
Yeah, why didn't I?
Because you're not in her life anyway.
You got nothing to lose.
She's dead.
Yeah, and I moved away.
When I was 17, I moved away.
I was like, F this, I'm leaving.
I could have.
I could have said that.
Well, I'm just, I mean, 17 is a it's a big ask, but if she started smoking at 14, was she like a pack a day or more or less?
Um, maybe half a pack a day or something.
Okay.
So it's hard to say she rolled her own cigarettes.
Oh, so she didn't even have filters.
No, she had filters, but they were the pre-made.
Wait, did they have, yeah, they must have had filters.
Yeah, I don't know much about it.
I thought Roll Your Own was just you.
Okay.
All right.
So she smoked for like, what, 50 years?
Yeah.
Okay.
And how many so how old was she when you moved out?
Um well, it was, you know, 12, maybe 13 years ago.
So in her 50s, let's say 50.
Okay.
Oh, interesting.
Okay.
So she had you kind of late, right?
No, 33.
28.
28.
My numbers are off, but I think it was 28.
Okay.
So 28 plus 20 would be 48 minus 17, 39, right?
Sorry, sorry, 28.
Yeah, minus 3 would be 45.
So she was 45 when you moved out.
Do I have that right?
Okay.
So that's 20 years before she died of smoking, right?
Family Blame and Lost Contact00:15:55
Yeah.
So what do you think would have happened if you'd have said, look, you're going to die of smoking and I don't want to watch that.
So, you know, you got to quit or I'm gone.
Well, the thing is, she was so poor, it would have been a great thing.
You know, I haven't been poor since.
So I could have leveraged.
Yeah, nothing.
Nothing bad would have happened.
I mean, well, other than that, she probably would have just been angry and never changed.
I mean, but I'm not trying to make excuses there.
What do I think would have happened?
No, no, that's a valid thing.
I mean, if she would have just said, you know, screw you, kid, I prefer smoking to your company.
It's like, well, I'm glad to know where I stand in the pecking order.
You will prefer that which is a horrible, enslaving, foul addiction that will kill you over your son's love.
Fine.
Peace out, man.
I got to move on to better postures.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They were just such hermits.
Like, and the anger, the anger, like she had my stepdad's kids, she had completely disowned them all and said, like, never come around me again.
Like, and what's that?
Why did she disown her stepchildren?
She used the fact that one of them was a lesbo, a lesbian.
But I think that ultimately, because I don't, I don't, she was only, I truly believe that she was only a Christian because my stepdad was.
But I think it was jealousy of her, of his ex-wife, of the children getting more attention.
Okay.
Okay, so she was kind of petty and vengeful.
Definitely.
Her father was as well.
So I think she learned it from him.
Always with the female corruption, there has to be an excuse.
And usually it's the male.
Yes, but her father.
Her father.
It was her father.
Well, also, her mom.
I don't know if this probably has something to do with it.
Her mom was actually diagnosed schizophrenic.
Which means what?
Well, she can imagine living with that for so many years.
Her father.
So, you know, I don't know.
It's asking me if I can imagine living with mental illness for many years.
I guess so, yeah.
I mean, please tell me more about living with mentally ill people.
Okay, so, but why would that mean that she gets an, I mean, if she sees severe mental dysfunction, shouldn't she aim for mental health?
Right.
Yeah, I agree.
And you know what?
The truth is, is my brother stood up and did do something.
When we went down to visit, my stepdad, in confidence, told us that she had been stopping him from seeing his kids for the last 15, 20 years.
Sorry.
And she'd been stopping who?
Stopping my stepfather from seeing his kids that lived right around the corner for 20 years.
Stopped seeing them.
She doesn't have the fucking power to do that.
What?
Is she a witch?
She put him in a glowing cage?
What do you mean she stopped him?
I don't understand that.
Well, I think sex, if I had to say, I would say sex is a very powerful motivator, and he probably was fearful of losing it.
Oh, so he chose sex with an ashen-lunged smoker over seeing his own children.
Yeah.
And towards the end of her life, he started seeing them in secret.
Oh, this is also pitiful.
So she chose cigarettes over you.
At least that was your concern.
And he chose having sex with a manipulative witch over seeing his own children.
Yeah.
Yeah.
To the point where he told her sons, hey, I'm in a pickle here.
I need help.
And so my brother confronted him.
He told her sons.
Sorry.
So he stopped his own kids, but he was still in touch with her, with your mom's kids, you and your brother.
Yes, sir.
Yes.
Okay.
And then so when we went down to see her, when she was like on death's door, he was like, hey, I'm in a pickle here.
I'm meeting with my kids in secret, whatever.
Basically, looked for allies.
My brother confronted her, and she basically was like unresponsive to that intervention with me and him and was like, I was just, it was just crazy.
It ended up where we left.
And I actually didn't talk to her, but once one more time before she died.
So she justified bullying her husband to not see his own children for 20 years.
Yes.
Even though they moved to that area to be around them.
And My father justifying that he needed to be in that area because it was the Bible belt.
So 20 years.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, like, did he see, he saw his one son that was just so nice.
He was just, he just basically charmed her.
But the other son and the other two daughters and his ex-wife never seen again.
Yeah, pretty much.
God, that's horrible.
Well, it's a terrible thing about remarrying, right?
Like, no, don't blame it on remarrying.
This is your mom's choice.
Lots of people remarry and still see their own children.
Yeah.
This is not remarriage as a category.
This is your mom's choice as an individual.
No, I think my mom's character.
And you knew about how long did you know that she was bullying him to stay away from his kids?
Well, I really thought, and I think we can both say we both really thought that there was an estrangement and they were both in agreement.
We never knew that he was like, we thought he was, he was, he didn't want to be around them because of their antics, the stuff that they did.
I just don't think that their antics were.
Now that I've met with them and I have the full story and like his ex-wife even visited my mom in the hospital, all this stuff came out after with a soprano's pillow, I assume, but go on.
No, I mean, apparently, my understanding is she was not a bad person.
I mean, probably, you know, like the ex-wife.
The ex-wife, yeah.
She doesn't seem like that bad person.
I don't see anything.
Okay, so let's get back to how old were you when you realized that your stepfather wasn't seeing his own children?
Well, I mean, I always knew that they weren't, he wasn't spending time with them.
But as far as when he came to us and was like, hey, she's the one that's not letting me see them, was two years ago.
It was a year now.
No, I get that.
But how long did you know that he wasn't seeing his children?
Since, you know, since I was 10 years old, it's probably when they stopped coming around and there was letters being flown back and forth kind of thing.
So, what, close to two decades?
Yeah.
Okay.
And you accepted that his children were the ones at fault.
They were the bad ones.
He was just protecting himself from his mysteriously dangerous offspring.
Yeah, I was told that basically, because I talked to my, my stepbrother was close to me, you know, and we, we've always had a great relationship and this stuff wasn't talked about, you know.
And yeah, it was definitely a constant, you know, drumbeat that, you know, the, that they were against what his daughter was doing, right?
Living in life of promiscuity or whatever with her lovers, and that that was against what they believed in.
Yeah, but okay, let's take that as a sort of fundamentalist perspective, not one I particularly agree with, but let's say that we take that as a perspective.
Why would that affect their other children?
That oh, because they stayed in contact with her or they tried to defend her?
Right, right.
And that they did, I mean, really not like my mom, and I can see why now.
I understand now, right?
Right.
Okay.
So do parents, do Christian parents get to condemn their children when those Christian parents have raised their children, which is supposed to teach them right from wrong and good and bad.
And, right?
So can parents condemn their own children without also implicating themselves?
Oh, interesting.
Well, I mean, I do believe that.
And I think you're actually getting.
Sorry, you believe what?
I'm asking you a question.
I don't know what you're believing.
Yes, they can.
Oh, no, they can't, not without implicating themselves.
Well, the only way that they can say that my child is just irredeemably bad and wrong, despite my amazingly wonderful moral instruction and deep love and care and concern and prayer and so on, is my child was born bad.
Right?
There's no amount of good parenting or bad parenting that's going to change a kid's eye color, right?
Right.
No, I agree with that.
Yeah, so if your child is born bad, then how can you blame the child?
And if the child is not born bad, but becomes bad in this formulation, then how can you just blame the child?
Yeah.
Because you know the moral nature, right?
Right.
Yeah, I wonder how, you know, if they had, if they had continued a relationship, because at first it did work.
They had moved down there and there was some community going on there.
And then my mom had a constant problem with other women, several, several instances where, and she held grudges for life, you know, kind of thing.
Okay.
So it wasn't just your mother dangling smoky sex in front of your stepdad.
It was that your stepdad, because of his Christian beliefs, viewed his daughter as immoral for her lesbianism and his children immoral for refusing to condemn her in the same way.
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
Yeah.
Okay.
So let me ask you this.
Has it ever been the case where you have tried to get someone in your family of origin to do something better and they've listened?
No.
Right.
So what do you think that has taught you or baked into you a very spinal fluid?
What do you think that has taught you about the power of truth, reason, and virtue?
Well, what is it talking about?
Well, that staying on the sidelines doesn't do anything.
Staying on the sidelines doesn't do anything.
What does that mean?
I mean, if I just, I guess what it's, I mean, I haven't learned the lesson, I guess.
No, no, what is the lesson, though?
So you try to say to your mom, quit smoking, or I'll start smoking.
I assume that you try to reason things through with other people in your family of origin.
I don't mean the other kids.
I mean the adults.
Right.
So have you ever had it where you have, over the course of your life, not just as a kid, with your family of origin, have you ever tried to reason with them or tell them to do something better and they've listened?
No.
Right.
So what lesson have you got about the power of virtue?
You have to say something or nothing's going to change?
No, because you say something and what happens?
Nothing changes.
What does it tell you or what has it instructed you about the power of virtue?
I feel like you're going to have to walk me through this.
I don't know.
Well, if you have never successfully had a good conversation with someone about being better, what does that tell you about the power of virtue?
It's not very powerful.
Okay.
Where has it ever been powerful in your experience with your family of origin?
And listen, when you say, when I say have a conversation with someone, I don't mean that they immediately say, you're so right.
I'm going to completely change.
But you have a conversation.
And maybe it's a multiple conversations and so on, right?
So what do you feel deep down about the power of truth, honor, integrity, conversation, reason, and virtue?
In my life experience, I haven't felt much that it works.
It does nothing.
It's a waste of time.
Evil people or corrupt people or immoral people do whatever the hell they want and they don't listen to reason, right?
Yes.
Right.
So you know why I'm bringing this up, right?
Because of Alan.
Yeah.
That's right.
Yeah.
You don't feel like you have any power to influence him for the better.
Sorry, go ahead.
Let me ask you this.
Should I have, it is in your opinion that I should have stood up and said at that time, mom, you need to let him see his children, you know, from the start.
You should stop smoking and had regular conversations with her about her addiction.
Well, listen, that's, obviously, I don't tell people what to do, but you said you were close to your half-brother, right?
I'm sorry, to your stepbrother.
Is that right?
Do you repeat that?
You said you were close to your stepbrother.
Yes.
Okay.
So they stopped coming around when you were 10.
Did you have any conversations with him after that?
Yeah, yeah.
He would come by and hang out sometimes.
Yeah.
He was the one exception, basically.
Okay.
Okay.
So you were in conversation with your stepbrother, who, of course, I'm going to assume is older.
How much older?
10 to 15 years older.
Okay.
All right.
So you had access to your stepfather's children's perspective on things, right?
Yes, sir.
And did they have a reasonable case to make as to why their father had broken off contact with them?
Like that, that it was wrong for him to do that?
Well, he never broached that subject because he never did.
They never did.
No, he really didn't.
He tried not to.
He was that.
I think he was like really good in that sense.
Like he just wanted to see his father and he would ignore all the rest.
Sorry, I didn't quite follow that.
So he never talked to you over the past 20 years about his side of why his father cut off contact.
No, no, but since.
No, no.
Okay.
And did you ever ask him why he didn't see, why he and his siblings didn't see their father?
No.
Okay.
And why, I mean, you were close to him.
And I assume you did talk to him a little bit.
Sorry, go ahead.
No, no, just that.
No, I don't think I did.
Okay.
So if you were close, and I assume this was the biggest agony of his young life, right?
To be to be rejected by your father because he takes off when you're four and drinks himself to death, perhaps.
That's one thing.
But to be actively have your father in the neighborhood and refuse to see you is a particular kind of agony, right?
That's horrible.
Yeah, and from his perspective was, you know, that he could see him, but he had to be walk on eggshells and do it, like do it while he knew that he wasn't going to be able to have his siblings come with him.
Okay.
So he told you that he had to go and see his father in secret, but that was just in the year before your mother died, right?
Oh, my stepdad had to see my step kids, the stepkids in secret, yes.
Right.
Okay.
And he never talked to you about the why, like why that was the case.
No, we did ask.
Why He Saw His Father in Secret00:13:42
Oh, my stepbrother?
You're asking if my stepbrother ever told me why?
Yeah.
Or told you like his side of why he didn't see why he couldn't see his dad in the open.
No.
And you didn't ask.
And I didn't ask.
Okay.
And why do you think you didn't ask?
I mean, it's a pretty obvious question, right?
Yeah, just This moral, like that my stepdad was moral and he didn't want to see him.
It was kind of odd.
I felt like it was obvious.
Oh, and when I did ask my mom, she would say that she hated her for being married to her to my stepdad.
Yeah, that was the official reason for my mother.
Sorry, your mother said she hated her.
This is the ex-wife?
No, my mom would say that my stepsister, who was lesbian, hated her because she had her dad.
And that was why it was never going to reconcile.
Okay, but I mean, why would you go to your mother?
I mean, I'm talking about going to your stepbrother that you're close to to say, why don't you see your father?
Yeah, I know that didn't happen.
And why do you think that didn't happen?
Or why do you think you, I mean, it's a pretty obvious question, right?
I mean, why don't you see your father?
I mean, you see your stepfather, but his own children don't.
And it's a pretty obvious question.
I'm not, obviously, I mean, I'm not saying there's anything wrong, but I'm genuinely curious why you wouldn't ask that question of your stepbrother that you say you're close to.
And this is the biggest agony and pain that he's carrying and the biggest messed up thing in his life.
And if you're close, wouldn't you ask him about it?
And if not, why not?
And again, without judgment.
It's almost like I don't care.
I don't have a, I don't have a good reason.
It's like I just, I just, when I was 17, I just almost, you know, you just sounds very callous.
Sorry, just, you just what?
I just, I just said it's almost as if like I just left that life behind.
You know, it sounds very callous, but it's like, I don't know.
Well, no, so you're talking about when you're 17, right?
Oh, so that's, that's movie The Goalpost, right?
Because I'm not talking about when you're 17, right?
Because it was 20 years after that, right?
Yeah.
Well, something like that, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it doesn't have to get to the actual numbers, but that's, that's my question.
Is why not ask the man that you're close to why he didn't see his father?
Well, I mean, I should say that the one that I was close to did see him.
He was the one that in secret.
That's not in secret.
No, My stepdad saw them, all of the children in secret, all the other children in secret once she was terminally ill.
Oh my gosh, can we just stop going round and rounded circles and came by?
I'm talking about 20 years.
15 years.
I'm talking about that.
I'm not talking about right before she died.
Yes, I'm saying for the 15 years, he did see him.
He did see his son.
I thought you said he didn't see his kids for 20 years.
Okay.
Sorry if I misunderstood something.
Yeah, no, no.
It's just that it's true.
You have the right perspective.
It's just that the one stepson that I was close to, he did see him for 20 years.
He just appeased her, and he never brought his siblings around.
So he appeased her.
Is your stepfather appeasing your mother?
Is that what you mean?
No, my stepson that I was close to, the stepson that I was close to, he appeared my mom by being nice to her to hang out with my stepdad.
Okay, so your stepdad did see one of his children openly in the 20 years.
Yes, but that's the only son that he, that's the only child that he saw.
Okay, and there's another son and another daughter, right?
And he didn't see the daughter because of the lesbianism, and he didn't see the other son because the other son didn't appease his wife or something like that.
Yeah, the other son was like, she's crazy.
I'm never going to, I don't want anything to do with her kind of thing.
Okay, got it.
Okay, so then what lesson did you get from these two brothers, right?
Because this is almost like a biblical setup, right?
You've got one brother.
It really is.
Wow.
You've got one brother who appeases corruption and thus gets access to his father at the expense of honesty and integrity.
And you've got another brother who doesn't appease corruption and is banished.
Oh my gosh, it really is.
Right.
Oh, my gosh.
Right.
Right.
Well, both of them.
Go ahead.
Well, you're right because the one, he didn't get anything.
He never saw his dad.
Yep.
But the other son did, but he sacrificed his principles.
Yep.
Yeah, for sure.
Holy shikes.
So lying, lying.
So the cost of relationships is lying.
And that's not something I want for my kids.
So what's the solution here?
What should they have done?
Neither of them were right.
What do you mean, neither of them were right?
Well, maybe one was right.
Well, definitely the brother that appeased my mom was not right.
He did something that was wrong to get what he wanted.
And no one was the better for it.
Well, I mean, someone must have been the better for it, or it wouldn't have happened, right?
At least in the moment, right?
Oh, right.
Right.
It may be better for him, but not for his siblings.
The other son, he never saw his dad for 20 years.
Right.
So that's bad.
Right.
Now, the son who saw his father paid a price.
Yes.
And the price he paid was a reduction in the quality of the people in his life.
Yeah.
Because let's say that the son who appeased his stepmother and saw his father and didn't fight for justice for his siblings, let's say that he was dating some super moral woman.
The moral woman would say, what about that situation?
Oh, that it was that it was wrong that she kept him from his children.
Well, you're saying, well, so you're appeasing this situation.
You're not being honest and you're not fighting for justice for your siblings.
That's kind of gross.
Right?
Yeah.
So the only people he can have in his life are those who aren't telling him to actually do the right thing and stop appeasing a vindictive and bullying woman and try to make steps to heal the divisions in his family.
Right.
I feel like, honestly, the only people that could have done something are probably her children, my mom's me, because that's what she had.
That was her number one was her kids and we didn't do anything.
Sorry, her number one was her kids.
Like her number one priority?
Yeah.
Was me and my brother.
And if we, the only way that she would have changed is if every, well, her and her husband and her husband, but if we had all gotten together and been like, hey, this isn't right, that was the only way that something would have changed.
Okay.
And why do you think you didn't do that?
Sorry, when did you lose your Christianity or your faith?
You know, 18 to 20.
So shortly after leaving.
Okay.
All right.
So why did you appease your mother and not tell her the truth?
Yeah, probably that part is probably because in the dark didn't ask, should have asked, but didn't.
No.
Or in the dark is you knew.
I mean, you were still in touch with your stepbrother.
You knew the situation, right?
So you weren't in the dark.
You knew that the family had fractured.
Yeah, I knew it was fractured.
Okay.
So let's not do that.
So why did you not?
And listen, this is not, again, it's just curiosity.
I know this all sounds, why the hell didn't you do that?
I don't mean anything.
I'm just genuinely.
I'm curious.
Like, why not?
Yeah, I mean, 20 years, right?
Why not?
I should tell you, I'm totally okay with judgment.
No, no, but the judgment is pointless because it doesn't answer any questions, right?
Okay.
Right.
If someone gets a sunburn and I say, well, that was stupid.
It doesn't tell me why he got the sunburn and he needs to put on a shirt or like, you know what I mean?
Like, you just need to be curious.
Hey, I wonder why that sunburn happened.
And then you can actually stop it, right?
But just judgment is thinking you solved the problem when you haven't because you don't have an answer as to why it happened.
Sorry, I know the answer.
Yeah.
I know the answer.
It's that I was so spiteful towards my stepdad for taking me away from my father.
I hated him.
So I had no concern with his life.
I don't quite believe that.
I mean, I'm not saying you do.
I'm not sorry.
And listen, the fact that I don't believe it doesn't mean that it's not true.
I'm just telling you my honest experience.
That sounds like something your mother would say.
That sounds like, because, okay, first of all, you, you know rationally that your father did not take your stepfather.
Sorry, your stepfather didn't take your father away because your father was gone for two years before he moved in.
Unless there was an overlap.
Like unless your mother had an affair.
No, no, no.
No, I didn't mean that.
No, no, no.
Just that like the entire time we were in that state, away, way, way, way away, I blamed my stepdad for taking us because it was his idea to be near his children.
And that was the whole reason was we're there because it's a better area and that's where his children are.
He wanted to be a part of their lives.
We needed to get away from the evil family.
Okay.
So do you have memories?
I know it's pretty early on.
Between four and six, do you have memories of your biological father coming around or calling you or spending time with you?
Yeah, yeah, I do.
Very, very intermittent.
And I think it was definitely passionate.
It was fueled by my personal older brother, not my stepbrother, because he did remember a lot more.
Okay.
So your father came by and tried to be part of your life, but then your stepfather moved the family away.
Sorry, so I understand now.
So your stepfather moved your family away, and that's why you didn't see your biological father.
Yeah, and my grandparents and everybody else.
Okay.
So why did your biological father allow that to happen?
Because legally, I'm not sure that's allowable.
I'm not, again, I'm not a lawyer, but I think you can say, look, I'm the father.
You can't move my kids to the other side of the country.
Yeah, that's totally true.
And the reason I was given, because, remember, I never talked to my biological father, but very, he would call me, but it would be very sporadic was his.
So the reason that my mom gave was that he he had a new girlfriend and she had kids and he was busy with his own life okay, and he was drinking right uh yeah, I don't know how much, but okay.
So uh, it it's possible that your stepfather moved you away from your father because your father was a drinker and maybe was drinking and driving, or maybe was drunk or drinking when he was supposed to be parenting or something like that.
I'm not saying it's true, i'm just it's a, it's within the realm of possibility, would you say well yeah, and I think that it is true that it was probably not the best environment, but compared to my stepdad's environment, that he which it was good, it was a good environment that he moved us to in some respects okay, all right.
So were there other things about your stepfather that you didn't like?
Um extreme, um piety uh, the the bible stuff, like never letting us do anything, but mainly that was that was definitely baked in.
I mean no, no kid wants to be told no and and definitely a You can't do anything, you know, can't celebrate Halloween, that sort of thing.
Okay, so very strict that way, right?
Which I don't mind that now as an adult.
I'm just as strict.
I'm going to be just as strict with my kids.
So, just not in a biblical sense, but in a, you know, majority is bad kind of thing.
Right, right, right.
Okay.
All right.
So, he was strict, but you appreciated it later.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
So, when did your appreciation of your stepfather kick in or start to?
Probably after watching RNK videos by you in 20, you know, 10 years ago.
10 years ago.
Okay.
Have you expressed your appreciation for him in the 10 years since?
Yes, I have.
Okay.
So then again, why wouldn't you?
So you stopped disliking him in that way 10 years ago.
So you said, like I was saying, well, why wouldn't you ask?
And you said, because I dislike my stepfather, but 10 years ago, you changed your perspective on him.
And so why wouldn't you ask more about what was going on and why he wasn't seeing his kids over the last 10 years?
Yeah, that's where it just comes down to, I guess, just not being a part of their lives.
And I don't have a good reason for that.
Well, I mean, you were part of your, you were still close to your stepbrother, right?
No, this is where it's like, nah, at this point, once I moved away, it wasn't like, it was just, you know, a phone call or two, he came to my wedding, that sort of thing.
Okay, so you kind of vague out of that one.
Okay.
All right.
Yeah.
Okay.
He also became a raging alcoholic.
And oh, yeah.
So since then, and yeah.
Like, didn't have a phone number for the longest time.
So he went from like the top pinnacle of performance and his professional career to alcoholism, got fired and basically think magnum PI.
Oh, like went to Hawaii and did nothing?
Went to a rich millionaire and lived on his property kind of thing.
Avoiding Toxic Business Partners00:14:02
Oh, okay.
Okay, Linda.
Okay.
All right.
So is that his, is he still drinking?
I don't believe so, but I don't have anything to be, you know, absolute on that.
Okay.
All right.
All right.
So I would suggest that the reason why you didn't confront anybody is that nobody listens.
Yeah.
What's the point?
Right.
I mean, if people only speak Japanese, I don't tend to go and lecture them on philosophy.
Yes.
They kind of understand what I'm saying.
Sorry, go ahead.
No, I was just going to say, like, yeah, maybe a failure of my own argumentation, you know?
No, no, no.
I'm going to assume that you're accurate as to why you didn't bring these issues up.
I'm going to assume that you're accurate because, you know, you've got good instincts.
You're a smart guy.
So I'm going to assume that you're accurate and that there was no point bringing things up.
So why didn't you bring up your mom quitting smoking, which could have kept her alive, right?
Well, because she wouldn't have listened and it would have been just horrible, ugly, and unpleasant and pointless, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
And why didn't you bring up the fracture in your stepfather's family because it would have been useless and pointless and all of that, right?
Yes.
So people don't listen.
Yeah.
So then the question is, and it's a big question in everyone's life: what on earth do we do with people who don't listen to reason?
I don't know.
What do we do?
I really don't know.
Well, what has my answer been, Low, these decades?
I don't know.
How's your answer back?
Well, my answer has been the same for 21 years, which is if you think that someone won't listen to reason, you try to reason with them.
And if they won't listen to reason, you can get out.
And that there are very significant benefits to getting out and very significant costs to staying in.
That you don't want to be in limbo.
You don't want to be in the null zone, right?
Yes.
Where people don't listen to reason, but they're still in your life.
Because what that does is it blunts your moral purpose and ends you up in business with alcoholics.
It blunts your strength of morality.
I am not around anybody who weakens my sense of the strength of virtue.
Really?
No.
You just cut it out.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, they're gone.
Because I can't be around people who don't listen to reason.
Because my entire purpose is the power of reason.
And reason is powerful if people listen to it.
So you're saying that you've had like friends that drink a lot and you're like, you need to stop drinking, man.
Like, you know, it's clearly a problem.
And when they don't, you, you just will say, like, hey, I'm sorry.
I just can't be a part of your life.
Well, I mean, I can't think of a particular instance with drinking.
I don't, I don't really spend time with drinkers anyway.
I kind of loathe.
I mean, listen, I'll have a beer or two a year.
But I kind of loathe drinking as a whole.
So, but yeah, with regards to mysticism or statism or subjectivism or nihilism, oh, yeah, absolutely.
I'd be like, man, this is this is toxic, man.
I, I, I can't be around this, right?
Like, if you go ahead.
I was going to say, I'm guessing weed, like when you talk to someone who's a weed smoker and they're like, man, you got to join in, and you're like, I don't really want anything to do with you kind of thing.
Oh, yeah, I won't be around people who.
And you know what?
I've definitely had issues with social alcoholics, right?
So there were people that I knew.
So, yeah, sorry, let me revise that statement.
I was thinking about like real core drink yourself stupid and can't remember a weekend kind of thing.
But I have definitely, I have stopped being, I stopped being around people.
I was part of a social group and every time they got together, they had to drink.
Yeah.
And I didn't like that.
And I said, well, why, why, why is alcohol always involved?
Could you guys like, do you not enjoy each other's company when you're not drunk or drinking?
Like, oh, you just got to learn how to relax, man.
It's just fun.
You know, it's just a way to unwind after a tough day.
Blah, Right.
And I'm like, well, why can't you unwind with good conversation?
Why can't you unwind?
Oh, I just like the taste.
Well, why can't you drink alcoholic stuff?
Like, oh, don't be so, don't be such a square, you know, like, and I'm just like, okay, like, I'm out.
I just, I don't want to be around people who can only socialize when they're drinking.
That's being a social alcoholic.
I don't want to be around that.
It's not, it's not my thing.
So, yeah, but, but people who are, you know, nihilists or, or, or won't, or even, even, I couldn't be around people who had a great deal of potential and wouldn't ever work to achieve it.
You know, I grew up with a particularly talented cohort of people, and I'm the only one who really did anything with his abilities.
And I just, I can't be around people who cower and back down before their own potential.
I think that's, that's the real sin and a waste of ability.
And I think it comes out of anger at the world.
I think it comes out of insecurity.
And there are always people who'll give you an excuse for not trying.
And I think it's terrible.
I think it's horrible.
And people who listen to those losers who tell them, don't try and so on.
And I mean, I stopped seeing a friend of mine of many, many, many years because he wouldn't stop sniping with his wife.
And I'm like, listen, I can help you guys.
I'm pretty good at this kind of stuff.
But he didn't want to.
And so it got really bad.
And yeah, it's, I mean, I stopped seeing them.
And then, you know, years later, they did end up divorcing.
And it's like, well, I don't want to be around that.
I don't want to be around that sort of tension or snappiness or anything like that.
So, no.
No, like I have to have people in my life who are functional, positive, healthy, happy, and will listen to reason and also will help me out.
Right.
And because obviously I have contradictions or hypocrisies or make mistakes and I need people who are going to be comfortable calling me out on that, which is great if you have a, I don't know how old your kids are, but once you get teenagers, they'll help you out with that quite a bit.
I guarantee you.
I guarantee you that.
And that's good.
They should.
I have an eight-month old.
Okay.
Yeah.
Just wait, you know, half a decade, she'll, she'll be all up in your grills about this stuff.
So So, yeah, I don't, I mean, life is short and I don't, and especially like I'm doing a real high wire act of maximum potential, and I just can't have cynics around.
They just drag you down.
Yeah.
So I reason with people, and if they listen to reason, great.
And it's obviously not just one try.
I'll try a couple of times.
If they listen to reason, great.
If they don't listen to reason, if they gaslight, fog, obfuscate, defend, counter-attack, whatever, you know, I'll give it, I'll give it, I mean, for me, maximum three tries, I'll give it three tries.
And after that, I'm like, all right, I'm like, I'm out.
I'm out because I've got a, I got to go do this high wire act of maximum potential.
Like, I'm, I'm out.
I can't, I can't be around this, this kind of thinking.
Well, now, this might be me trying to just, because I do have a tendency to be like, to avoid that.
So my, but my one question is, what if, I mean, what, what is this standard?
Like, for instance, if I go to my business partner and say, hey, this isn't right, you're, you're, you have an alcohol problem.
You need to see Calp or whatever.
And then, like, am I looking for him to drink beer?
Am I, if I find out that he was drinking beer, am I like, okay, that's it?
Or keep talking to him?
Like, what kind of improvements?
Or do I just say, this guy, I missed my opportunity to talk to him about this issue a long time ago, and this just needs to end?
Well, I don't know about missed your opportunity because I would assume that you didn't talk to him because he wouldn't listen, right?
I mean, I assume that your wife listens to reason.
However, imperfectly we do sometimes, I assume that your wife listens to reason.
Yeah.
Okay, that was a bit of a pregnant pause, but I'm going to assume that your wife is more amenable to reason than the rampant alcoholic, right?
Yes.
Okay, good.
So that's good.
I assume your children listen to reason and so on.
So that's good.
So to me, the standard would be, just for me, right?
And this is not my particular standard.
This is a standard of intervention, is we can't do business together if you drink at all.
Like you can't drink at all because you're an alcoholic, which means you can't touch alcohol.
I also recognize that it's difficult, challenging, and perhaps even physically dangerous to quit because you've been dependent on alcohol for so long.
So I'm absolutely willing for you to consult with an addiction specialist to get therapy, to consult with a doctor, to transition out of being an alcoholic as safely as humanly possible.
I'm not expecting you to snap your fingers and suddenly be a not alcoholic, right?
So, you know, I can't be in business with you when you drink because the business is limited.
I end up doing more work and I could be legally liable if you damage someone or hurt someone while drinking on the job.
Right.
So rather than talking about the problem.
But so just saying, like, I can only stay in business with you if you stop drinking.
And you know, you have a problem.
You drive drunk.
I've never been caught.
It's like, well, of course, everyone says that.
And my mother smoked 50 years and didn't get lung cancer until she got lung cancer, right?
I mean, this idea that it's not a problem, it is a problem.
It is a problem.
Now, the problem, well, one of the big problems is he's not, if he quits drinking, he's going to have to face the guilt of having encouraged people to drink for probably a quarter century.
Yes.
There's a lot of guilt in that.
He's also going to have to figure out his relationship with his wife because they both drink.
He's also going to figure out his relationship with his kids and how absent he was as a father.
So one of the problems with quitting drinking is all of the guilt that shows up and the shame and the loss and the sorrow and the anger at people who didn't intervene earlier.
I mean, clearly he's out of control of his drinking, right?
He can't quit on his own.
Does he even admit that he has a problem?
No, absolutely not.
Right.
Right.
So the odds of him quitting are virtually zero.
I think so, yes.
Right.
But I think also that I will obfuse skate at any chance to not have this conversation.
So, you know, well, and listen, bro, you don't have to have this conversation.
But you just need to, I mean, I need to lay out for you the consequences of not having this conversation is that he's going to increase his drinking almost certainly.
He's going to have health issues.
He's going to have sobriety, obviously, driving issues.
He's going to make more and more bad decisions and the business is going to get worse and more dangerous.
Yes.
So you may decide, sorry, you may decide, look, I'm bailing out of the business because he's not going to listen to reason.
And I don't want to be exposed to this kind of liability.
And I can just, I mean, just start a new business, right?
You can just say, look, look, I'd like to be bought out.
I'd like it if you gave me some money to buy me out of the business, but I can't expose myself to this kind of liability and extra work.
I do, yeah.
And that is a part of me.
But at the same time, I feel like it would be cowardly of me to not at least say why, you know.
No, you can say why.
I'm not comfortable being in business with someone who drunk drives.
Now, he might say, well, I'll stop drunk driving, right?
Right.
And then I would say, look, you're not a kid.
You know drunk driving is wrong, dangerous, and illegal.
So the fact that, like, I don't want to be in business with someone who's comfortable drunk driving unless someone says I want to quit, right?
Because that's, that means that you don't have your own standards for this stuff.
Well, I didn't know it was such a big deal to you, right?
It's like, well, I mean, the fact that it wasn't a big deal to you is just part of the judgment thing, right?
I don't want to get my ass sued because you plow into a school bus while drunk driving.
Or the business would be sued or whatever it is, right?
So, yeah.
So, I mean, you don't have to have the conversation.
You can also just say, if you want, you can just say, I've decided to start my own business and I'm walking away from this one.
And good luck.
And you can keep my half of the business.
I don't care.
Like, whatever.
Right.
So, so you don't have to have these conversations at all.
Now, you can say, oh, it'd be cowardly, this, that, the other.
I mean, it's not cowardly to avoid a conversation that's just going to be negative.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah, what I don't want to do is what I don't want to do is the, you know, F you because I've done that before and I regretted it, you know, with walking away from jobs and stuff.
Like the.
Well, again, I can't tell you.
Look, and you can stay in the business.
I just think that that's risky and not particularly great ethically.
No, I think, I think it's literally right on my outline is, should I move on?
You know, so it's like, I knew something needs to be changed.
You know, I'm just, I'm more like, it absolutely needs to end.
I don't think he's going to listen to reason, but I don't think it would hurt anything for me to tell him like, this is why, you know.
Well, I don't know.
Ethical Risks in Business00:14:28
I mean, that's, that's for you.
Obviously, he's a friend.
He's a friend of yours, but you need to be aware of when people don't listen to reason because you are going to go into a new business environment, right?
I assume.
Yes.
And in your new business environment, you're going to work with people.
And so you need to know in your heart of hearts who will listen to reason and who will not listen to reason and only try to do business with people who listen to reason.
You're right.
Yeah.
And I don't know that that's a conscious sort of thing for you as yet.
No, I are you still there, Simone?
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
I was just going to say, I feel like my brother's been working on me for years trying to get me to think the way you do.
So I do get it.
I think what I do is I try and chameleon it with people, like get them to get with me instead of like having my standard and seeing who will approach me or maybe trying to get people of like-minded to come around me.
Instead, I like make it work with certain people and just accept things.
I think that's my.
Well, so let me give you the personal trainer analogy.
So let's say that you were a personal trainer, right?
And let's say that you let your clients upload their fitness journey onto your website, right?
Now, let's say that there's you've got like 10 clients and they're all 300 pounds and you're trying to get them down to 180, right?
Now, let's say that nine of your clients don't listen to you.
They don't change their diet.
They don't exercise, right, whatever, right?
And one of your clients does and he's making real progress, right?
Now, would you let all 10 of them upload their fitness journey?
Here I am month one, month two, month three, month four, on your website, let's say that five of them were gaining weight, four of them were stable and one of them was losing weight.
Would you let them upload their fitness journey pictures onto your website as testimonials?
Not the ones that weren't going anywhere.
Well, why not?
Because it would look badly on me.
Right.
So people who don't listen, you don't associate with.
You don't want them associated with you because they make you look like shit.
Yes.
Yes.
So what would you do with the clients who didn't listen or did the opposite?
I wouldn't put them on my website.
Would you continue to work with someone who wasn't listening or doing the opposite?
I have in the past, but I.
No, no, but I'm talking about if you're the fitness trainer.
Yeah, I would have to drop them at some point.
Well, you'd have to drop them because you might get some money in the short run, but your business is going to crater in the long run.
Yes.
So the interesting thing is that your friend Alan is not the only addict in this relationship.
Because an addict, to me, at least by definition, is someone who gets short-term gains over long-term pains.
And you get, so if you continue to charge these obese clients and continue to have them upload their pictures, you would get the money from those clients in the short run.
But what would happen to your business in the long run?
No one would stop.
People would stop showing up and stop asking for help.
Yeah.
So your business would largely fail.
Yeah, your business would largely fail because people would look and say, okay, so this guy's been working with this guy for six months and he's fatter and this guy too and this guy too.
Okay, there's one guy.
There's one guy who's losing weight.
And what would people think if nine out of ten of your clients were the same or gaining weight and one guy was losing weight?
What would they think of that when they saw that on your website?
What would they think of you?
They would just think I'm a failure.
Yeah, they would think, well, he must be giving really bad advice, but this guy is just oddly motivated.
He's obviously, maybe he's listening to someone else or whatever, right?
And what they would also do is they would say, what kind of idiot, I'm sorry, what kind of idiot would put people getting fatter as testimonials on his website as a fitness trainer?
Like, what kind of judgment does this guy have if he thinks this is good for his business?
Yeah.
So the addict takes short-term money.
In this case, it's your income at the moment at the expense of long-term consequences, which is you're in business, excuse me, you're in business with a raging alcoholic who every day he drinks and drives puts you in massive legal liability and moral liability.
But you're doing it for the sake of making some money, like you're 35 bucks an hour in the here and now.
And look, I'm not saying the money's unimportant.
And if you said to me, well, listen, I got to keep taking these fat people's money as a personal trainer because I got bills to pay.
I'd be like, well, okay.
But you know, it's coming at the expense of your business in the long run, right?
Because an addict steals from the future to pay the present, right?
Your mother stole her lungs from the future in order to feed her addiction in the present.
Yeah.
Your friend is stealing from the future his health, his relationships, his job security, his perhaps even freedom.
If he plows it to someone while drunk, he's going to go to jail.
So he's stealing from the future to feel his feet his addiction in the present, right?
And I would argue, obviously, in a slightly different way, that you also are stealing from the future to feed your cash requirements in the present.
I think you're right.
Yeah, and it's justified because it's more money I've made in my life.
Yes.
And listen, that's great.
But that means that if you're doing most of the work and you're making the money, then you should go and make the money without this guy who's a liability.
Or find a partner who's sober and listens to reason so that you can both make more money.
Or get a job somewhere else for a while, at least, and not have the potential legal liability of this guy doing dangerous stuff on the job, which you're tied into as a 50-50 owner while he's drunk out of his brain.
Yeah, and that's the thing is, I don't want to go into another partnership because not only is it not, you don't have the control of the culture and how we're going to do it, but also because I was just reading different people's testimonials that when you have a partnership, that one person's always going to be unhappy with how much work the other person is doing.
It can never be truly equal.
Do you think that's good logical?
Yeah, I think that's often true.
So people who become philosophical are either entrepreneurs or miserable.
Really?
Really?
Yeah, I mean, because you think for yourself, you have high moral standards.
You have good integrity, great honesty, a good work ethic.
So who are you going to match with?
Like, maybe if somebody else is also very philosophical, you can go into business together.
That's kind of rare, right?
Especially in a particular field.
Yeah.
So, I mean, I work with people in general on handshakes.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
Now, have you ever gone into business as a zone or do you always just work for yourself?
No, no, no.
I've been in business with people in the past.
Oh, yeah.
You have?
Okay.
Oh, yeah.
And was it generally negative?
Well, how many people am I in business with now?
No one but me.
I mean, I've worked with people, but as far as ownership and partnership goes, yeah, I do it myself.
I got a whole novel about this called The God of Atheists.
You should check it out.
It's free.
Freedomain.com slash books.
But yeah, I was in the business world and it was pretty corrupt.
Really?
Okay.
I got to read that.
I'm on peaceful parenting.
Right.
Okay.
Well, do that and then.
Yeah, but if you have very high moral standards, it's hard to be in partnership with people unless they share those high moral standards, right?
Yeah.
Does your partner share your high moral standards?
I mean, in ways like, in certain ways, but not in other ways.
Does your partner share your high moral standards?
Because moral standards are about consistency.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, and that's the thing.
I might say something like, well, he, you know, loves his kids, loves to spend time with his kids or whatever, but at the same time, hang on.
Oh, my God.
Stop at the propaganda, bro.
Yeah.
Does an alcoholic love his kids?
No.
No.
I mean, he's putting himself at risk.
He's getting blacked out drunk.
He's endangering his entire family finances and his own financial and even factual freedom.
He's spending huge amounts of money on alcohol rather than saving up for his children's future.
He's emotionally unavailable.
The life is chaotic.
His children don't want him to drink, but he's drinking.
He's choosing alcohol at the expense of his children.
You cannot be an alcoholic and love anyone, even yourself.
It's a form of so does he share your high moral standards?
No.
No.
Now, he might look, he might say, yeah, you know, if I say I'm going to do something in business, I do it.
Okay.
Okay.
That's, you know, that's fine.
That's not a moral standard, though.
I mean, he could be a hitman and say the same thing.
You know, I take this money and I go shoot people, but it's, you know, it's a handshake deal.
Of course, it's a handshake deal.
You're a criminal.
Right.
So, criminals operate on hashtag deals a lot of times, right?
I mean, they can't paper it and take it to court, right?
Your honor, but he said he would pay me 20K to rub this guy out, right?
So, does he share your high moral standards?
No, right, he doesn't.
He does not share your high moral standards.
Does he care about the liability he's exposing you to?
Yeah, by either not knowing or just being a general ass, no, he doesn't know.
Okay, does he care that you're working significantly more than he is?
Does he say, Look, I get that's not fair and that's not great for our partnership, and blah, blah, blah.
He did come to me and say that.
Oh, good.
Okay, and then what?
Well, I was like, Yeah, I think I grumped about it.
And then later on, I confronted him and said, Hey, it's really not fair.
I think I should get paid more.
And he was like, He got defensive after saying that.
So, that's where I think like he was using, he said that, but just to acknowledge it and continue on with the unfair.
He knows that there's a problem, but he's just appeasing you and continuing to take half the money out of the company, right?
Yeah, and he said, and then, so after that, he said that, yes, we could find a way to have you paid more, but um, it would have to be on paper so you'd get more taxes coming out.
When I had suggested maybe I just get some more of the cash to make it fair and we keep the on paper the same, okay.
All right, and how long ago was that conversation?
Um, that most recent was probably a month and a half ago.
And has anything happened since?
I would actually be on me because I didn't say yay or nay on that.
I just was like, that's not what I wanted.
I wanted it cash.
Okay.
All right.
So, will good people want to work with you if your partner is a raging alcoholic?
No.
Right.
What does your wife think of the business arrangement?
Um, she knows that I've been successful with him, and so she wants that success to continue, but she thinks that he's a raging alcoholic.
Okay.
So, that doesn't tell me much other than she has two opposing opinions.
It's good that you get money out of it, but it's bad that he's a raging alcoholic.
Right.
Like, she just's not going to be like, end it because she'd be afraid of what might happen afterwards.
Maybe that turmoil that send that finding a new job that scares her.
So, okay, so she would rather you keep working with him.
Yeah, maybe work it out some way somehow, I guess.
Well, I mean, let's not go with magical thinking, right?
Well, what if he wakes up tomorrow and he never drank?
It's like, well, okay.
What if he wakes up tomorrow and he's fully committed to sobriety?
It's like, come on.
The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, right?
By far.
Yeah, I mean, if I told her, which I think I'm going to have to, is, hey, look, I can't do this anymore.
There's absolutely no reconciling.
She would support me.
I don't think she, you know, nothing like that.
But she's just not aware of the potential liability issue, right?
Definitely not.
I don't think she's gone that far.
Yeah, I don't think she's thought that way, that through.
And again, don't take anything I say.
I'm not a lawyer.
I go talk to a lawyer or do your own research, but it does seem to be that that could be the case.
Okay.
So that is a conversation to have with your wife, which is, and we all have to have this conversation, right?
And it's with wives, with husbands, with everyone, is how many, how many moral compromises do I need to make in order to have a paycheck?
Right.
And that's not an easy answer.
Well, I don't agree with the government funding of roads, so I'm never using a road, like whatever you want to say, right?
So we all have to make our compromises within the system, right?
So, but that's, that's a conversation to have.
I don't really fear, I don't like fear that in any way.
Moral Compromises for a Paycheck00:03:55
I mean, I know because it wouldn't be like condemnatory.
It would be like, yeah, I'm getting an income from this job and it's good income and it's more money that I've made in the past.
And that's nothing to sneeze at.
So again, I'm not, please understand, of course, I'm not telling you what to do.
I'm simply pointing out the choices, right?
Yeah.
And the consequences as I see them.
I like, you can keep working with this guy, explore other options.
You can keep working with this guy, shut your mouth, take the money, and say, okay, I'll take the liability risk.
You could confront the guy.
You could go and say to all of his friends and family, he's like, we got to have an intervention.
Like, you could do nothing.
Like, I don't know what you should do.
Because this is, but, but I do know that it's important to know what the costs and benefits of each choice is, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
No, I definitely know what the right thing to do is now.
I think that's knowing what the right thing to do is, that's the hard part for me.
But executing, I can do that, you know.
Okay.
Good.
Well, I mean, if moral clarity has arisen out of the conversation, and I would be careful in the future, and I say this from personal experience.
So this is, you know, I'm quite a bit older than you.
And so I think you have more moral clarity than I did at your age.
So, you know, this is with all due humility.
But what's important to be careful of is charming people who don't listen.
Yeah.
They are charming.
They can offer you the world, but they won't listen to reason.
And they have significant red flags.
Those are the people to watch out for.
Yeah, I don't feel heard either, just as a general saying by him and others, you know.
Well, no, he can't listen because he's an alcoholic.
All he can do is cover up, charm, and manipulate.
I mean, he's an NPC.
He's hollowed out.
He's a machine of deliver more alcohol.
That's all it's about.
Yeah.
So he can't listen to you because it's listened to you or listened to alcohol.
And his body is now so dependent upon alcohol that, I mean, he could face severe negative consequences just physically for not delivering the mechanism.
In the same way that your mother existed to deliver nicotine to her nervous system.
She did not exist to listen.
She did not exist to interact with people.
I mean, that's what addicts are, right?
Is they exist to appease their addiction.
They are machines, right?
Like a person who's obese exists to deliver food to his fat cells.
He does not exist for any other particular reason.
And everything is around that.
The gambler exists to deliver money to the casino or whatever, right?
Like it's not a choice situation.
And so he is like somebody who is out in war and there's a sniper around.
Their entire purpose is to not get shot.
Everything is like they can't see the sniper.
There's a sniper around or five snipers or whatever.
They can't see them.
Then everything they do is conditioned and their entire purpose is to not get shot, right?
They can't just have a relaxed, chatty conversation because they're in a sniper town and there's snipers everywhere and they got to be there for whatever war reason.
So that's their whole job is scanning for the snipers and not getting shot and running zigzag and going from cover to cover.
That's their whole life.
It's just don't get shot.
And that's what it's like to be an addict.
Their whole life is cover up, lie, charm, make sure people don't call you on it.
It's all around just he exists like a slave to deliver alcohol to his body.
And so, yeah, but you can't listen.
The Burden of Being a Provider00:03:20
And you have to be careful.
You have to be careful that your addiction isn't to deliver money to your wife at the expense of stability and security.
Sorry, go ahead.
I mean, that's a common addiction for men, right?
Yeah, because you're like, you're told you're the provider, you're the provider, and I want to be the provider.
Sure.
And I also, I don't have any question of my ability to provide either.
You know, it's like, right.
Because I know that, you know, even though I don't like that wages are going down, I know that if I did take a cut in wages, I would just need to curb expenses.
You know, it's that easy, you know?
Right.
And, you know, I also want to be a good provider, which means I want to be able to provide in the long run.
Like it was like a day or two ago that some conservative, I think he was providing security to a woman, got beaten to death in France by a bunch of hard leftists, right?
Now, I mean, I myself have been hunted through the city by a bunch of hard leftists when I was in Australia.
You know, it's fairly alarming, I suppose, and it would be crazy to not be alarmed, right?
And, you know, I saw the power of the state in Hong Kong, got tear gassed and all that kind of stuff for some pretty peaceful protests.
So, yeah, you've got to have your caution around.
And so I could go and do crazy, dangerous stuff and then get killed.
And so I'm not suggesting any, I'm suggesting do anything that is destructive to your interests in the long run.
But yeah, just be aware that this situation is probably going to get worse.
And there is always, you know, obviously you're in America.
That's a litigious heavy system, right?
Situation.
Now, maybe it would all be covered by insurance.
I don't know.
I don't know.
But it's risky, right?
Yeah, legality.
I mean, yeah.
I mean, I'm always, yeah, and that's a definite thing, but also just more, if it's morally wrong, I don't want to do it.
I don't want to be a part of it.
It makes me not want to drink at all.
Well, you are in business where this guy gets alcohol and a company truck.
Yeah.
And, you know, how does that land on you morally?
I mean, you're definitely part of part of the, you're part of the process in some corporate sense, as far as I can understand it.
Well, and the guy that we work that works for us is also an alcoholic.
So it's like.
Oh, so it's two.
Yeah, because you were saying he was driving with someone, right?
And they were both drinking.
Yes.
Yeah.
I mean, and it's obviously completely illegal, as far as I understand it, to have open alcohol in the car.
Yes.
Oh, yeah.
All right.
Yeah.
Okay.
So hopefully that gives you some good conversations to have with your wife and stuff to think about.
And, you know, I really obviously hugely appreciate the call today.
It's a very courageous thing to talk about.
Did we do useful stuff for your life?
We sure did.
I don't want to sound needy.
Did I help?
No.
I want to make sure I'm providing value, right?
So, okay, good.
Well, I hope you'll keep me posted about how it's going.
And again, I really do appreciate the call today.
And congratulations on, you know, coming from a pretty messed up past and being a good father and provider as it stands.