Feb. 24, 2026 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
02:19:30
Is My Indian Boyfriend BAD?!? CALL IN SHOW
Is My Indian Boyfriend BAD?!? CALL IN SHOW explores a five-year relationship between two Western-raised, mixed East/South Asian partners (mid-20s) stuck in toxic bickering—12+ fights last year—over unresolved cultural/religious clashes, especially his Muslim parents’ disapproval. Deception and emotional suppression mirror their dysfunctional upbringings: hers with a scammer-trusting mother who lost $1M to fraud, his with domineering parents threatening estrangement. A coach warns of trauma bonds and immature parenting plans, urging them to either commit fully or walk away before children deepen the cycle. [Automatically generated summary]
I'm asking for advice on my relationship for around three years.
For most of the relationship, my boyfriend and I, we've had a pattern of getting into an argument every few weeks and then making up.
And that's kind of been the normal, but lately it feels that our communication issues kind of get worse the longer they are unresolved.
Like it's sort of like if you don't fix something by default, it gets worse the longer the issues there.
That's what I feel like.
The fights get more and more bitter and I'm trying to break the cycle.
Some of the things we've tried are reading communication books together, analyzing what went wrong and being vocal.
We're pretty good at analyzing and analyzing things in retrospect.
And like, you know, when it comes to being analytical, we're okay.
But I feel like in the moment when things get heated, that's when we can't control.
And sort of, you know, the psychology knowledge goes out the window.
So yeah, these things have been helpful, but I feel they're incremental.
And I'm afraid the relationship is getting worse faster than it's getting better.
And yeah, I'm hopefully looking for some advice or insight on that.
Yeah, good for you for reaching out for help.
How old are you guys and how long have you been going out?
Yeah, so we're both mid-20s.
We've been going out for about three years.
So we've been long distance.
So let's say we've known each other for about five years.
Been dating for about three years.
And one year out of the three years has been in person while the other two have been long distance.
One year out of the three years has been in person.
And that's now, are you guys living together or what's your arrangement?
Yeah, yeah, we're living together.
We're from different countries.
So we kind of hop around.
Okay.
But in general, yeah.
Okay.
We live together.
And what is your goal in the relationship?
I mean, obviously to get along and so on, but you want to get married?
You don't have kids.
What's your goal?
That's a good question.
Conventionally, I'd say all the typical things, you know, getting married, doing the, yeah, having kids.
Separating in the West00:15:44
It's not, I mean, I guess for me, I've always in the back of my mind, I've sort of always said I wanted the traditional stuff, but it's not like we've actually, you know, had a solid plan on how to make it work.
Sorry, you had a what?
Oh, like, oh, how to like the path to marriage, the path to having kids.
Sorry, I thought you said we had a sword fight.
I wasn't sure.
Sorry, I'm sure I misunderstood.
No, no, sorry.
Yet, anyway, yet.
Okay.
All right.
So, and is that what he wants?
Is marriage and kids?
Yeah, yeah.
I feel like he's more traditionalist than me.
So he has a stronger desire.
But as I said, because of our situation, we came from being long distance.
We're not really, we don't have a stable place to settle down at the moment.
So it's, yeah, he, he has, he has, we both have the desire.
He has a desire stronger than me.
But at this point, there's no real plan.
It's kind of just like wishes and up in the air, if that makes sense.
Okay.
And you said you come from different countries.
Do you come from different cultures or ethnicities or anything like that?
Yeah.
So I were both born and raised in the West.
For my accent, I'm not going to name names and places, but probably you can probably guess where I'm from.
He's that's that's a that's stereotypical.
Um, but um, yeah, I'm a Canadian standing in waist deep snow, so you don't get to tell me about stereotypes.
I'm living through them right now.
Anyway, go on.
Yeah, yeah.
So, yeah, also where I'm from, I'm from my background.
Yeah, so born and raised in the West.
I'm East Asian.
He's also born and raised in the West.
He's South Asian.
But yeah, hopefully that gives you a bit of context.
Okay, so East Asian is sort of Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and so on.
And South Asian, is that Indian?
Yeah.
The region, yeah.
The region of India.
Okay, got it.
Got it.
All right.
But you're both born and raised in the West.
Is that right?
Yeah.
So as far as like communication and values, there isn't much of a bridge.
It's always sort of communication and talking about the big important stuff.
It's always been pretty easy for us.
Okay.
And how did you go ahead?
Yeah, sorry.
I was saying, yeah, as far as values and the big things go, there's never been a lot of difficulty in sort of discussing.
And we are quite aligned.
Mainly the community, the issues that we have, it's just issues regarding communication, not talking to each other, right?
And that type of thing.
And what about religious backgrounds?
Are you both atheists?
Is one of religious?
Do you have different religions?
Yeah, so he's religious, but I feel like he was raised in a religious background, but I don't think he doesn't really practice it or he doesn't talk about it or it doesn't interfere in how we interact.
I would say that I'm probably like, I'm a, I'm a, what's the word?
Like a agnostic, yeah, agnostic.
Like I don't, yeah, so I'm not, I'm not religious, but I kind of believe that there's something out there.
That answers your question.
Okay.
And what's his religion?
He's Muslim.
Muslim, okay.
And have you talked about how you're going to raise your children?
Yeah, no, no, we haven't.
Because as I said, like we it's not something, yeah, we haven't really talked concretely about these things.
I mean, like maybe you're implying that we should.
I guess there's a part of my brain where I think that it's not front of mind yet.
Like maybe it would be something that I'd be concerned about in a few years.
But yeah, no, we don't really talk about that.
Well, is it a serious relationship that's aiming towards marriage?
As far as I understand it, it is.
I mean, you've got three years invested in this, right?
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, historically, you'd already be working on your second child, right?
So this is kind of a slow-motion situation, right?
Yeah, supposedly.
I mean, in the context of modern day, it's about normal.
But maybe what's normal today isn't right.
But yeah, maybe we should be having more of those conversations.
Well, okay.
So, I mean, one of the basics, and listen, I say this with all humility because I wasn't asking these conversations when I was your age.
And I paid a pretty heavy price for it.
So this is not anything superior at all, right?
But the reality is that if, let's say, he's a committed Muslim and he wants to raise his children in the Muslim faith, right?
Then would that affect your marital happiness?
Would that affect?
Yeah, funny enough, um, with religion, I get the impression that he he is religious, but also that he doesn't see it doesn't seem to like guide, it doesn't seem to guide his decision making.
Like he's not, he's not like on the floor praying or reading the Quran or stuff like that.
Um, and I don't so so maybe so maybe he is practicing, but he's kind of he's kind of like uh he's kind of he's kind of like a like a modern day religious.
It's sort of like um it's it's all like a lot of Christians, maybe they go to church and maybe they maybe they say they're Christian, but but it's not it's not very deep.
No, but the religion, sorry to interrupt, the religion comes into play when the kids are around because his parents will his parents want the children to be raised in his faith.
Um, uh, supposed, supposedly, supposedly, yes.
Um, yeah, just for some context, we we both don't have like very good relationships with our parents, so um, I don't think I don't, I don't think he would be very burdened by sort of cultural values or like normative values.
Um, well, sorry, does he uh does that mean he doesn't have a relationship with his parents or does he has a distant relationship with his parents?
Yeah, distant.
Well, um, so in my experience, and this is not 100%, of course, but in my experience, distant parents become a whole lot less distant when there are grandchildren involved.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, they will they will make a play, almost certainly they will make a play to be in their grandchildren's lives.
Would you think that might be a possibility?
Yeah, that that is a possibility.
Um, the thing is, um, yeah, a funny thing is, I guess I'd have to sort of give like more context on the relationship.
Um, his parents aren't, his parents aren't aware that we're together.
We we've kind of um we've kind of like uh like like sort of effectively eloped.
So you're not married though, right?
Eloped like living together, but you're not married, right?
Yeah, apologies.
Okay, yeah, no problem.
Um, so I don't think the parents would I think his parents being very religious would never approve of someone being with would never approve of him being with someone outside his religion.
So for us, um, for us, we're pretty serious about each other.
So I'm pretty sure the plan of him is that he would he would not be letting his parents into, like he would not be cluing his parents into any any side of any side of his romantic life, that's including children.
Um, so sorry, he would hide from his parents the fact that he was married and had children.
Yeah, there's a pause there because that sounds a little tricky, right?
Um, I mean, yeah, supposedly, I guess, which which is which also does go back into which I suppose also goes back into the reason of why we haven't talked about like a like a road, like a like a solid road map to marriage and children, because there are still some things like um blocking that.
Well, you're talking about a lifelong massive deception.
Am I, I mean, am I wrong?
Are you dating?
No, oh, what's that I hear in the background?
Is that children?
No, that's just the television.
I'm watching a children's show.
Like, I don't even know how to, right?
But, but you're talking about engaging in a multi-decade deception with his parents.
I mean, what?
If they if they come for a visit, you have to pretend to be the cleaning lady.
I'm sorry, don't be the laugh, but I mean, what's what's the plan?
Um yeah, no, no, no, you're right.
And um, for me, um, I mean, obviously, I think I'm sort of speaking on his behalf, so I can't really I'm pretty sure he might have an answer for that.
Um, I guess for me, I've always like assumed that he would kind of sort it sort it out.
Okay, I think the phrase sorted out is doing a whole lot of work there.
What does that mean, sorted out?
Um, he would kind of, yeah, he would kind of well, okay, well, well, I guess that I'm that I'm aware of his plan would be at some point to to cut his parents off.
Um, his parents are quite his parents are quite um overbearing, which is why he hasn't done it already.
But um, I'm sure he does have some, he does have quite a lot of negative unresolved feelings with his parents, and he does see them as being a bad influence.
Okay.
So then the idea would be that he is going to separate from his parents and they won't be part of your lives.
Is that right?
Yeah, yeah.
Is that what you think the plan might be, or is that what he has talked about?
I'm sorry, I don't mean to be like cross-examining you.
I just want to make sure I understand where things are in terms of your communication.
Sorry, that was, do you, is that what I think is that what you think will happen that he's going to separate from that?
He told me that.
Yeah, or has he told you?
Yeah, yeah.
He has made it quite clear that he does have a lot of negative, unresolved feelings of his parents.
And he believes his parents are quite hard to communicate with.
And he does sort of choose being with me over his parents.
I think it's also like that culture.
I think it's also like, yeah, that specific culture, like the parents are especially overbearing.
So I think a lot of like separating isn't as easy.
Like, you know, especially in the West, people have this culture where just in the West in general, people have a culture where they're not really indebted to their parents, while other cultures, like it's, it's your, it's like you're expected to like play a role.
Sort of your parents raised you.
When you get older, you become a the caretaker role and so on and so forth.
The parents look after the grandchildren.
Sure.
So I think he's kind of in the environment where it's not that easy to separate, but he has a desire to.
Right.
So you guys have been long distance for two years.
You're living together now.
And are his parents living close by?
No.
And do they visit or how do you handle that?
No.
So we're kind of located pretty far from them.
So maybe he goes and maybe he goes and visits them like once every few weeks, once every few months or something like that.
So it's, yeah, on his side, I don't necessarily think it is right, but he is kind of playing this sort of like deception game, which, yeah, it's not right, but I also understand with some people's cultures, like it's not that easy to separate.
So I do want to, I do kind of do see the, I kind of do see the parts where I do take some issue, but at the same time it's like it's it's.
I don't really have a right to um like interfere, you know, or well not not, not that I don't have a right, but um sort of like yeah, like um, it it's, it's his matters um no, so so you guys are in in many ways, functionally married.
I mean, I know you're not legally married, but you're functionally married and that you've been together for a couple of years and you live together right yeah, I'd agree.
Okay so, whether you're a Christian or not, a marriage you become one flesh and so you don't have separate moral issues from your boyfriend right, like if he was saying that actually more well no, it's just that you are, you are, you are part of it.
You are participating in this falsehood and I know that sounds like a big negative.
I'm not.
I'm not saying that's necessarily a negative right, I mean, the people who were hiding and Frank were participating in a falsehood, but nobody would condemn them right so but, but you, if you, you can't separate yourself from this because you are participating in this falsehood and his, his family right, his family and it's not something that like, I'm completely comfortable with.
Like, if you ask me, oh, if I, if I, could have it perfectly the way I wanted it, it wouldn't be this way.
But I don't know.
What do you, I suppose like like, what do you suppose I do?
Like um well, hang on.
So we're just at the beginning of the combo here, so give me a little time to catch up with your life.
No my, my purpose is in this is not to tell you what to do, and I can't tell you what to do because you have to make your decisions based upon, I hope good, good principles.
Yeah, so my only point here was, okay, hang on.
So sorry, we have to do a thing where I'm talking.
You can't please please, try not to talk over me, because it's very awkward in the conversation.
Just wait, if you can do me a favor.
Just wait for me to finish my point.
I know you're a little, maybe a little, nervous and eager, and I appreciate that, but it does get difficult to communicate if you, if you, talk over when I'm talking.
Purpose Not Dictation00:02:06
So my purpose here is not to tell you what to do, but if you say, well, my boyfriend of three years.
Him lying to his parents is his business, not mine.
I would disagree with that.
I think it's.
I mean, it certainly is more his business, but you're certainly involved, right?
You mean, when they call, you don't answer the phone right no, and you listen to him lying to his parents, right?
So you say what's new?
Oh, not much.
Are you seeing anybody?
No right, the standard sort of questions that parents have.
So you are in the room and you don't answer the phone.
And when his parents are on the phone, you know, if they knew about the relationship and you needed something, you'd say hey, where's the sugar?
Right, but but you have to be quiet.
When they're on the phone, you have to pretend to not be there right that's, that's definitely something that's happened more than once.
Oh yeah, and and if you, if there's a video call, you can't even exactly walk by the background right, you have a ghost in your house son, look around, all right.
So, so you are, you know you're, you're part of the, the falsehood.
And I know that sounds like i'm not pointing that out in some condemnatory way.
It's just a, it's like a fact that it's not just, It's not something I'm 100% comfortable with.
Well, good.
I wouldn't be either.
I don't think anybody but the conscience would be.
Because, okay, and what do you think of his parents?
From what he's told me of them, I don't think, I don't think well of them.
And obviously, the entirety of our relationship, it's sort of been pitted as sort of a he's torn between me versus them.
So it's he doesn't play doesn't mean it, but like I do feel it as some sort of adversarial thing because our interests aren't compatible.
Juvenile Interests Clash00:13:03
But other than that, from what he's told me, I don't think they're, you know, especially nice people.
I think they're very, they're very image conscious and would rather sort of want him to play the role of what they want instead of what he actually wants, which is, yeah, basically, he ran away.
Wow, status-conscious Indians who want a dutiful son.
Huh?
Never heard of that before.
Never, It's a shocker.
It's a shocker.
Okay.
All right.
So did you guys meet online?
Yeah.
All right.
And what was it that drew you to this young gentleman?
Yeah, good, good question.
Because, you know, there are easier relationships in the world, right?
So he's got to have something really special if you're going to go through all of this, right?
This is a very complicated, very complicated situation.
And so I'm trying to figure out what is, and I'm not saying there isn't anything, but what is special enough about him that you're willing to take this approach?
Yeah.
And it's not like I never had an intention to sort of, you know, leave where I was and go look for something else on the other side of the world.
So I sort of have always been on the internet space and had a lot of internet friends.
I find people on the internet where people bang up similar interests to be more interesting than people in your proximity.
A lot of them are kind of normies.
So we first got to talking.
Yeah, we had a lot in common.
It's like it's sort of like everything that I talked about, he had something to add.
And we just like what?
Like deep conversations, things about things about books, like psychology.
I think we also have, I would say, have like similar, similar morals.
I do like how he, like, like, I wouldn't call myself a, like a good person, but, but I feel like I'm someone who I do think deeply about what's right and what's wrong and what's meaningful.
I feel like a lot of people don't necessarily do that.
They sort of follow what society says, but they never consider for themselves.
And I feel like he's the same as well.
We're, you know, we probably are flawed people, but we do, we do try.
We do try to, you know, to think about what's right.
Okay, so in what, sorry to interrupt.
So in what areas, and please understand, I'm not disagreeing with you or questioning your knowledge of each other.
I just want to understand what it is.
In what areas do you find yourself morally aligned?
What areas I tell them we'll find out we're morally aligned because you were talking about having the same values and so on and I just I'm just trying to plumb and understand what they are.
Yeah, sure.
We do skew towards both having traditional traditionalist values when it comes to like dating not subscribing to the like hookup culture and wanting meaningful relationships with someone.
I guess that's what that's a that kind of fits into morals.
Also, I don't know, nothing I probably could answer this question better, but nothing comes on top of mine.
Sorry.
Okay, so sorry to be you've listened to these calling shows before, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
How good looking and/or wealthy is this young man and his family?
He's all right looking.
I'd say, I'd say, I say he's about average.
Yeah.
It's terms of wealth.
Yeah, he does all right for himself.
And his family?
His family?
No, not particularly.
Okay.
So he's not particularly good looking, which is average.
There's nothing wrong with that.
He does reasonably well financially.
His family is not wealthy or high status.
So I'm trying to understand the pluses that bring you into this very challenging situation.
And again, I'm not saying they aren't there, but help me understand the magic of the man that has you in this situation.
Like, like there seems to be like a schism.
It's like, why would you go through so much difficulty?
Like, it must be that good.
And that's what you're trying to figure out.
Right.
I don't know.
I guess maybe just like the best way that I can really explain it without sounding very like woo-woo or something, but it's like we've always, we've always known, like there's been like a mutual feeling that I think, like, apart from this, the conversations are great.
We can talk about a lot of things.
We think we do have a lot when we talk about, you know, sort of like values and things that we want in terms of a relationship, they do seem to be aligned.
But it's sort of you haven't talked much about how you're going to have a relationship or whether you'll get married or how many kids you want.
Yeah, I guess maybe, maybe not.
Yeah, maybe not, maybe not specifically around marriage and kids, but that's the whole relationship.
That's what love and sex is for.
That's like saying, well, I want to go into business with someone, but we haven't talked about sales, marketing, profits, or products.
Maybe I do have a very, very juvenile idea of love.
No, no, I'm not.
I don't want to.
I don't want to, I don't want to say anything negative to you at all, right?
Because some of them are just getting to know the situation.
So I'm not saying it's juvenile at all.
I'm just seeking to understand what is drawing you to the man to the point where you're going to pursue this very difficult path.
It's a very difficult path that you've got going on.
Yeah, and it's not i it definitely wasn't from from like lack of being able to get in a relationship in my local area.
Um I yeah, it's like um yeah without getting super poofy.
It's like like when you meet the one, you just know uh yeah, okay, but maybe that makes sense to you.
The one is not magic, right?
The one isn't he's not sprinkled with some fairy dust, right?
Yeah.
The one, hey, I got no problem with the one.
I mean, I met my wife and we were engaged within three months and married within 10 or 11.
But if somebody were to say to me, what do you find so appealing about her?
I mean, I bore everyone to death all day.
So because I could talk about some things that, yeah.
What are some things you would say?
What are some things that you would say?
Maybe I'm just not, I'm not answering it right or looking at thinking what you're saying.
So yeah, if I were to talk about my wife, I would say she's incredibly thoughtful, kind, funny.
She's got massive amounts of moral courage.
She has fantastic levels of integrity.
She's curious.
She's not volatile.
She's very even-tempered.
She has a great sense of humor.
I mean, I could just go, you know, she's blindingly insightful.
She makes connections that I would never have imagined.
And she has a fantastic judge of character.
She really thinks for herself.
Like, I won't, I don't want to make this call about me, but I would have a lot to say about the virtues and values that, and, you know, I find her very sexy, you know, all these kinds of great things.
It's very attractive to me, very attractive as a whole.
So I would sort of say there are all of these things that, you know, that would make me want to cross mountains and cultures and ford rivers and swim oceans and so on.
So when it comes to those, that's kind of the stuff that I'm looking for in terms of, and we met, you know, we're both Europeans, although from the opposite ends of Europe.
And we met locally so we could spend time together.
I mean, you guys have crossed entire oceans and continents to be with each other.
And that's fine.
So you were kind of a long distance as well, or you guys are from different areas?
No, no, sorry.
Our cultures are from the opposite ends of Europe, but we met three, we were three streets over when we met.
We just lived in Toronto.
We were like three streets over.
So that's what I'm sort of trying to understand is, I mean, the way that I work with love is love is our emotional response to virtue if we're virtuous, right?
And you said yourself, you're not a particularly good person, although you strive that way.
He, and I don't necessarily, I don't fault people for lying if it's the right circumstance.
So, you know, if you were trying to escape Soviet Russia and you had to tell a lie to the crossing guard to get away, I would be like, yes, you know, lie your butt off, right?
Because you're trying to get out of totalitarian Russia.
So, but I'm trying to figure out what is it that are his shining virtues.
And I don't mean this in any sarcastic way at all.
There's no quotes around this.
But what are the virtues that he possesses that has you pursue him?
And, you know, two years, long distance, a year living together, hiding from his parents.
And he's Muslim and you're agnostic and you haven't even talked about how to raise your kids.
And like, I'm trying to figure out because there's a lot of differences in ethnicity and values and history and experience and religion and culture.
Right.
And I'm trying to figure out.
Okay.
Let me ask it more basically.
What are the moral qualities you admire about him?
Yeah, I think he's kind.
I think he's thoughtful.
I think he really does care about me.
One thing that I did find very, very endearing is that sort of when I talk about something, when I mention when I say when I mention something I'm interested in, like a book or something, like the next time we talk, he'd come back and say, oh, I read this, or I looked into this.
And sort of, like, just sort of the fact that, because a lot of times you talk about stuff and it's just like surface level, but the fact that he actually took interest in my interests, it made me feel hurt.
And I don't know, I don't think, I don't think many people do that.
And it's not like they have to, but I did find that particularly like, yeah, I was particularly touched by that.
I'm not sure what exact moral virtue that would be.
Maybe it's sort of like being thoughtful.
Okay.
Yeah, I think he does think for himself.
Both of us being from relatively strict or very, relatively solid, like rigid cultural backgrounds.
Yeah, kind of conformist cultures, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, we would both sort of buck the trends.
So I think there has been a solidarity in there, just in, in how, in our lived experience.
Hopefully that answers your question a little better.
So he takes interest in the things that you take interest in.
And that's nice.
I mean, that's good and it's thoughtful.
And he's thoughtful towards you.
And that's nice towards you.
And those are good things to have in a relationship.
But moral virtues tend to be a bit more facing the world, if that makes sense.
Conservative Conflicts00:15:06
Have you seen situations where he's had to stand up?
You know, sometimes at perhaps significant personal cost, he's had to stand up for something that is right and true and good.
And, you know, he fights the good fight and, you know, what warrior, virtue guy, and that sort of stuff?
I mean, I don't think there's been a situation where it has called for that type of action, but based off of that.
Oh, no, every day.
No, sorry to interrupt.
Every day, because he's in his mid-20s and he's living far away from his parents and he still hasn't told them he's dating.
So every day that he maintains that lie is he's not doing that, right?
And, you know, maybe there's good reasons.
I don't really know, but he's definitely, he's hiding you like a like a shameful secret.
Yeah, but I guess it's sort of like you mentioned like, maybe you're living in Soviet Russia and it's sort of like, but he's not, sorry to interrupt, but he's not living in Soviet Russia.
Yeah, I guess sort of like if you're in a situation where there's a lot of restrictions on sort of what you can do, you're trying to escape, but it is a little haphazard.
And I guess I do agree with what you say.
It's not the most virtuous thing.
And yes, I want to be, sorry to interrupt.
I do want to be fair.
So what are the restrictions on what he can do?
Why is it that he can't tell his parents or be honest?
I mean, are they paying his bills?
Is he on their health insurance?
I have no idea, right?
But what are the reasons that he can't be honest about his relationship?
His parents would literally disown him.
And?
And I think he doesn't want to burn that bridge.
Well, it's going to happen sooner or later, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
So that's, and again, I sympathize, I really do.
But that's what I'm trying to understand: is he just avoiding that confrontation?
Is he like, why wouldn't he tell them?
Say, oh, well, and you said he only visits them once every couple of months.
He doesn't have any particularly close relationships with them.
They're conformist and shallow kind of NPCs, if I understand this correctly.
And he's a free thinker, thinks for himself, and so on.
So that's what I'm trying to understand.
I can understand, like, I can follow completely if it was some long-distance relationship and he wasn't sure, but you guys are living together, which, which, by the way, you said you're both kind of conservative.
No, no, because you shouldn't be shacking up together if you're conservative, right?
Yeah, I guess conservative as in that the norm is kind of hookup culture, and we're conservative related to that.
Well, but that's not very conservative, right?
I mean, you should be getting married, I think, shouldn't you?
Yeah, sure.
I mean, that would be more traditional, if I understand it, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right.
Okay, so why, if his family is going to disown him, if he's with you and he's planning on staying with you, and you've already spent three years together, and you've lived together for a year, and when would you like to get married?
Yeah, I guess, as I said, I don't really, I don't really have a solid on no, but it's just roughly.
I mean, hang on, sorry, I don't want to get too vague here, and I know I'm not asking you to name a date.
Would you like to get married this year?
No, but if I had to say roughly, maybe like yeah, maybe when I'm like 30 or something, which is which is a good idea.
When you're 30 in five years, I mean, I mean, yeah, I mean, I don't, that's that's when like people in my circles are getting married.
I know, I know, no, hang on, hang on, you can't say, Well, I'm a free thinker and I am traditional, but everyone around me is getting like you can't do both, right?
Okay, okay, yes, yes, if you're not an NPC, you can't say, Well, this is what all the NPCs are doing, right?
Yeah, okay, so forget, forget this.
So, you want to be with the brother for eight years before you get married.
Why?
Why, why wait so long?
And I'm again, I'm happy to hear why.
It's just but why I mean, yeah, maybe buck what I said earlier about being conservative.
I mean, I'm I defined conservative as not wanting to engage in hookup culture, but um, yeah, I suppose in other ways I'm not that conservative.
I've never had, I've never thought strongly about wanting to have, I thought strongly about you know, when exactly I wanted to have kids Or wouldn't exactly want to get married.
Maybe it's not good because I'm just trying to understand.
So you might want to get married in about five years, right?
Yeah.
And why, sorry to try, but why would there be the delay?
And I mean, traditionally, it would be a delay to date a guy for almost a decade before deciding to marry him.
So what's wrong with getting married this year?
And again, maybe there's good reasons.
I'm just not sure what they are.
Yeah, if I could, I wouldn't be opposed to it.
But I think it's also just, I haven't been thinking about it because there are just these other things in relation to his family, us not having a permanent place that has kind of been a blocker in, has kind of been a blocker in getting married.
And also sort of my desire, I've sort of pushed that back.
What does it mean you don't have a permanent place?
Yeah, we're sort of doing the digital nomad thing at the moment.
We haven't exactly come to a conclusion where to settle.
Okay, got it.
Yeah.
All right.
So maybe it is, yeah, I think maybe my idea of a romantic relationship at the moment, it kind of is in that favor where we're kind of just enjoying each other.
And yeah, and then not thinking about those responsibilities, which I think I will eventually, but maybe that's why I'm not, I don't have that, I don't have a solid answer to the questions you're asking here.
Okay, so I mean, you're kind of a modern woman that way, right?
Yeah, sure.
And I don't mean that in any negative way, but I mean, that's not what a traditional woman would say.
Which is fine.
I just wanted to make sure I understood where.
And do you want to have kids with him?
Oh, yeah, one day.
Yeah.
Okay.
And does he want to have children as well?
Yeah.
Yes.
He seems to be, he's more, he's more traditionalist than I am.
So he would say definitely yes and like a stronger desire than me.
Okay.
So you guys are going to, you know, travel around and do the digital nomad thing and do the boyfriend, girlfriend thing for years to come, right?
I mean, that's the general plan.
Yeah, the foreseeable future, yeah.
Okay.
All right.
So tell me what's going on with your conflicts.
You said that you fight every couple of weeks.
What's happening there?
Yeah.
So it seems that we sort of have these like arguments where you're not, they're not anything.
It's not like the best, the best way I'd describe it is it's kind of like a toxic bickering.
Like one person says something and maybe they didn't mean it maliciously, but it rubs the other person the wrong way.
Can you give me kind of yeah, yeah, sure.
Let me just think of let me just think.
So so for so for example, I think so he was he was saying this was a com this was this is something that happened like over text.
So can you give me a verbal one?
Because the text sucks for communication of anything emotional.
So can you give me a verbal conflict that you guys have had and what the topic was?
Yeah.
Verbal cool.
Okay, sorry.
We have been for the past few weeks, we have been separated.
So most of the examples I can think of on top of mind are on text.
Sorry, why have you been separated?
Oh, he's got some obligations for work.
So he's just there doing his own thing.
And you can't go with him?
I mean, I thought you guys were nomadic.
Yeah, well, I've just decided to stay in my current place.
Is it because of conflicts?
Come on, be upfront with me.
No, not because of conflicts.
But you've chosen to spend a couple of weeks away from him for no particular reason, not because of any conflicts, right?
Yeah, yeah.
And he's kind of made a detour to visit his family.
Oh, so it's the family thing.
Come on.
Yeah, yeah.
If you guys have just been together for like in for a year in terms of being in the same place, wouldn't you want to spend as much time together as possible?
Why is he off?
That's what I'm trying to understand.
Like, why would he be off doing his own thing for a couple of weeks?
Yeah, there's a few other, there's a few obligations.
Okay, so he's visiting his family and it's kind of awkward, obviously, if you're around.
Okay, got it.
Yeah, yeah.
And because of visas and stuff, I do have some restrictions on where I can go.
So the separation is not because of conflict.
Okay.
So if you've had these conflicts, you said every couple of weeks.
So you've had probably, you know, 12 to maybe 15 of them over the last year.
And yeah, just one that comes to mind.
And if you say I can't remember, I'm going to have to question whether you're actually a female.
Because in my experience, females remember everything.
I mean, that's the thing.
Like, that's the nature of these conflicts.
Like, they're so petty.
They're so, like, it's the type of thing where it's like, we shouldn't be fighting about this, but we do.
I mean, okay, fine.
Okay.
I do have an example.
So that was like.
See, I remind you that you're a woman and the example comes immediately to mind.
Anyway, go on.
Yeah, I just like unlocked.
Yeah.
Anyway.
So we were sort of in the middle.
This was in the middle of an argument and we were kind of talking over each other and it was getting nowhere.
He's like, he's like, all right, we can, oh, why don't we, like, we need to chill out?
This is going nowhere.
Sorry, but what was the fight about?
Why don't we?
I don't remember.
It's, yeah, I really don't remember.
The thing is, like, I do remember this specific, I do remember this specific tangent of the argument because that is when like shit blew up.
But maybe I could.
So, yeah.
So it was like, all right, so why don't we just, you know, take turns talking?
We don't talk over each other and we work this out logically.
So I'll go first.
And you just listen.
You don't say anything.
And I'm like, yeah.
And then he's like, chill.
And I'm like, what the hell did you just say?
Sorry, he said.
Oh, he said chill.
Okay, sorry.
Go ahead.
Chill.
Yeah, chill.
And I was like, what the hell did you just tell me to chill?
And then he's like, shut up.
And that's when I was shooting for a pen.
Yeah.
Oh, that's bad.
Bad umbrella.
Anyway, go on.
I'm like, did you, did you just tell me?
I'm like, did you just tell me to shut up?
And he's like, and he's like, and he's like, oh, he's like, oh, shut up.
I just said, why don't we take turns talking?
I'll say my point first.
And we don't talk over each other.
You just talked over me.
And I'm like, yeah, but I didn't say, I wasn't interjecting.
I wasn't interrupting.
I said, yeah.
So he got angry that I said, yeah.
When I said, yeah, he got confrontational.
He told me to chill.
And then I got confrontation over that.
And I was like, what the hell?
So the way that he viewed it was that saying yeah was kind of transgressing the Sort of transgressing the statement that he just made about us not talking to each other, and he couldn't get past that.
And then I was really upset because I just said yep, and I got offended that he wasn't necessarily disagreeing with him, but so in fact, you were agreeing to just come, yeah, yeah, exactly.
So I was like, why can't you just calm down?
He's like, no, no, that's not okay.
And then I got even more offended.
I was like, all I did was say yep, and you told me to shut up.
And then, like, it's like, I don't know, like, even, even like, maybe you feel, maybe, maybe it can, like, even me retelling this right now, I just like, I'm just like, this is so petty, this is so boring.
But I feel like that's what most of the communication, that's what most of the fights are over.
It's like he said, she said stuff, and we just get really bitter.
We harp on what the other person says.
And I kind of like with that argument in particular, it's probably like letter of the law thing versus spirit of the law, letter of law.
He's like, you don't say anything, spirit of the law.
Like, I didn't say anything.
I just said, yeah, but I didn't really say anything.
I wasn't interjecting.
And we kind of see, we kind of see things in a different way.
And we can't, we can't understand.
We can't kind of be empathetic towards the other person's point of view.
I mean, it's like, I don't know.
It's like, even logically, I can like, like, after this argument happened, we did talk about it.
It's like, yeah, I get what you're talking about.
I get your point.
And he's like, yeah, I get your point.
But like in our mind, we each think that we did the right thing and we do hold some resentment towards the other person for acting the way they did.
And okay, so when you had this escalation about the okay, shut up thing, how long did the fight last and how bad did it get?
That fight in particular, that fight was just a tangent of the original fight.
Expressing Emotions Spur-of-the-Moment00:13:45
But that fight probably lasted like hours into the night.
That's how bad, like, we would hop on these little things for hours.
Like, maybe even, yeah, probably like three or four into the night.
And then what happens at the end?
Yeah, we sort of fight.
We get tired of the fighting.
Like, oh, I'm sorry.
We make up, you know, the whole shebang and it's all right.
Well, but is there no understanding?
Sorry to interrupt.
Is there an understanding of what cause to fight?
Or is there any?
I guess that's why you're calling me because you don't feel that that's really the case, that you sort of got to the root of the conflict and found a way to resolve it.
Is that right?
Yeah, I mean, afterwards, we kind of hug it out and we do talk about it.
Like we, I think we, when we do talk about it, we really are pretty good at sort of understanding the other person's point of view from an analytical point.
But I think the negative emotion still stays.
Thus, why the fights do feel worse and the fights do continue.
Okay.
I mean, the thing that jumps into my mind is that in some versions of Islam that I've heard of, male dominance and female submission seems to be slightly more emphasized than, say, in Christianity.
So could it be, you know, don't talk back, I'm the head of the household kind of stuff?
I wouldn't, I would, I wouldn't say, I don't, he hasn't come across as someone who's very, um, who is very who is like that.
He is quite a respectful man.
I think the example I gave you is kind of shows him in a worse light than me.
But yeah, but he did tell you to shut up, which is, I would never say that to my wife.
Yeah.
I can't even imagine saying that my wife.
He is, yeah, he's really, he's really nice and like caring to me, but he does have a temper sometimes when the fights get really bad.
Right.
And what sort of stuff does he say when he's at his most angry?
Yeah, he said stuff like, oh, girl, go get a plane ticket.
You know, get your plane ticket down.
Go back.
go back to where you came from.
Oh, so he, sorry, so he threatens to end the relationship.
Yeah.
And he doesn't mean it.
I know he doesn't mean that.
No, I don't do mind reading.
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry to be annoying.
I really am.
I don't do mind reading.
I simply assume that when people say stuff, they mean it.
Because you could say that about anything, right?
You could say that about anyone.
I don't do mind reading.
Has it happened on more than one occasion that he has basically said he's going to kick you out?
Yeah, when the fights get really bad, I feel like I've said that.
I've said stuff like that a few times myself.
And it is heat of the moment.
It is heat of the moment stuff.
I don't think I get that angry.
I don't have a temper where I say nasty things.
But I guess I, you know, because of the context and because I know him, I would say that he does say those things because he gets angry, not because he actually means them.
Well, but that doesn't solve the problem.
Because if you say something to someone that's designed to hurt them and that is a very painful, I mean, to threaten the end of the relationship is very serious.
And if you say that to someone because it's going to hurt them, then if you don't mean it, it's even worse because then you don't mean it, but you know it's going to really hurt the other person, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
And yeah, and I know that.
I know that because I'm on the receiving end and it is hurtful.
And I think like, yeah, this happened like over text not too long ago.
I basically, I laid down the law.
I'm like, don't like, don't say, like, don't say that.
It's super hurtful.
If you're going to do it, do it for real, but don't, but don't frighten it.
And he's kind of gotten it.
He hasn't said it.
But I did make that very clear.
What you said was, if you're going to break up with me, don't pretend to break up with me.
Just really break up with me.
Yeah, yeah.
Like, I don't want to break up, but the sort of, you know, like saying it and then retracting it, it's like, it's, it's really not good.
Okay.
And how many times would you say that you guys have threatened to break up with each other?
Like in fights.
Oh, shit.
I guess I almost don't want to say this, but you can say whatever you want, but the more honest you are, the more I can help for sure.
Sure, sure.
I guess how do I, how do I tell you?
Okay.
So probably more than 10, but I also do want to communicate that it is stuff that is said like out of anger instead of something that's genuine.
Sorry, why is the anger not genuine and the desire to control not genuine?
Well, I mean, it's like in the moment when someone says something, like they say, maybe they say something that's like the most hurtful thing that they could think of.
That's because maybe they're upset.
They're not able to control their emotions that well.
Sorry, but what controls our emotions is love is not wanting to hurt the other person.
That's what controls our emotions.
A lack of control, like a hostility and ugliness towards the other person and threatening the relationship in order to bully and get your way.
I mean, we could say, okay, well, you know, people have that impulse, they have that idea, or they have that goal.
But the reality is that the reason we don't do that is because we care about the other person and we don't want to, we don't want to do things that really hurt the other person, right?
And I do care about the other person, and it's not just him.
Like, on the spur of the moment, I've said things that were maybe I shouldn't have said and were kind of hurt.
Sorry, maybe you shouldn't have said this is this very vague.
What do you mean?
What have you said?
What have you said that you would consider that you would regret?
Oh, things like, yeah, things like wanting to leave the relationship and stuff like that.
And that's youth.
Sorry, go ahead.
That's yeah, that's that's probably few and far between.
Well, you've only lived together for a year.
Yeah, I mean, I have said stuff like that.
I have said like stuff like that in the beginning of the relationship.
You know what I'm saying?
What do you mean?
Like when?
Oh, like when we first started living together, like, oh, I should go home.
Or, you know, like, what was the point of me being here?
Which I didn't mean, but it was stuff that, you know, I was distressed in the moment.
Okay.
And where do you think you've got those habits from?
Like, did your parents fight that way?
Or did you have another relationship?
But where do you think you got the habits from to act in this kind of way?
To sort of, yeah, I mean, I am aware I have, I have a lot of, I do have bad, I do have bad coping mechanisms from probably the way that you're fine, but where does that come from, do you think?
Yeah, probably the way I was probably where I was brought up.
Okay, go on.
I mean, how did you, how did your parents handle conflict or your family as a whole?
Generally, not very well.
Okay, I get it.
That's you couldn't be more vague if you tried.
So if you could give me a few more details, I'm sure that would be helpful.
Well, I think I was brought up in an environment where I was not able to express my emotions if I was unhappy.
So a lot of it has led to, you know, bottling stuff up.
I think like even like a like even a connection that I did make was I remember since I was like really young, like, and this is probably like starting from like four years old or, you know, like sometimes I'm just like, sometimes I just, like, like, I just, I just like sulk and stuff like that.
Like, I just go in a corner and start talking.
So if you were, what do you mean by sulk?
Oh, like, just, I just, um, just go in a corner and be upset, kind of be inconsolable.
If someone asked me what was wrong, I wouldn't, I wouldn't tell them what was wrong.
And why do you think you wouldn't tell them what was wrong?
Um, yeah, that, that probably was like the only reason that would have happened was because they didn't have an outlet to express my discomfort, which is why I did it in that sort of way.
Sorry, I'm trying to make my apologies for trying to understand.
An outlet to express your discomfort.
That's very, that's almost like therapy speak, and I don't quite follow that.
So, you know, children get upset.
We all get upset.
And how would your family handle it if you were up angry or your parents or upset about something?
Yeah, not being able to voice it.
Okay, again, that's therapy speech.
Give me the practical thing.
So, what would happen?
You're angry at your parents for something, and what would happen?
Yeah, like parents would hit us and stuff.
Okay, go on.
Yeah, we'd be hit.
We'd be made to do stuff that we didn't want to do.
So, from that, yeah, you probably didn't never really never really like expressed, never really tried to express my emotions if I was upset.
But that is from sort of a pattern of you can't express your emotions because, you know, like your parents will yell at you and hit it and hit you.
So, you can't keep it to yourself or just follow it up, you know.
Yeah, it's funny because, like, there's this Asian, oh, the Asian girls are so nice, and it's like, well, yeah, but also, you know, there's also the other part of it, which is they're not allowed to not be nice.
So, it's kind of hard to say super nice, right?
Okay, we're very cerebral, we keep it in, you know, or express it, express it.
Well, express it, keep it in.
You're punished for not having it in, right?
Not having it stay in.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Okay, all right.
Okay, so tell me what would happen with your parents with regards to hitting.
And I'm really sorry about this, by the way.
I mean, it's it's certainly not the way that I recommend tracy children at all.
And I'm really sorry about that, just overall.
But yeah, so tell me what would happen.
Yeah, I think it'd mainly be my dad who would do the hitting.
As for frequency, I don't remember how much he did it, but it was definitely like being in the household, you definitely lived with the threat of violence.
So it's like, say, it made us do something, we'd do it because you never know if he'd like, you know, come down the hallway and you catch you doing the wrong thing and then hit you or something.
So it's, yeah, it was, it was kind of like a constant feeling of fear, or at least we knew that, you know, we would be hit.
And yeah, not really, yeah, I don't know, not liking my parents a lot either, just because they did that.
And how would you like, would you hit open hand, close hand, face, butt somewhere else?
Close hand.
Oh, gosh, a real fist, right?
Actually, sorry, sorry, open hand, yeah.
Open hand, okay.
Yeah, just being smacked and stuff.
Nowhere specific, probably like different places, but yeah, definitely like a good smack at her as well.
Okay, and how often might that happen?
I'll say once it's a while ago, but probably once a month from when probably like 10 years old and under, it went away when we got older.
Oh, sure, yeah, you get bigger, right?
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
And it's like less socially acceptable to hit like that.
Yeah, when you're older than an adult, but yeah, exactly.
But yeah, I definitely do remember it being a constant thing.
Or at least the threat of it was constant.
Right.
And I'm sure you've noticed this, but once a month is also how often you fight with your boyfriend.
You said every couple of weeks.
It's not exactly the opposite in terms of timeframe.
Aggression Patterns Match00:05:03
And it may be related.
I don't know for sure, but it may be related.
Like, maybe the point you're making is that I'm used to like a, like a general le I was, I grew up with like a general level of negativity and, you know, negative feelings when I was a kid, so it does seem normal.
Well, it's that there's a general pattern.
Yeah, there's a pattern of violence or aggression and the pattern seems to match.
Uh, in terms of the time frame, the pattern seems to match what happened with your father as well.
Yeah, I mean, as for the once a month thing um, it's probably like this is this is me remembering stuff that happened a long time ago.
So it's, it could have been a lot less than that.
Um, the once a month was kind of just, yeah, and do you have siblings?
Yes two, two sisters.
Oh gosh, it's a lot of a lot of females.
Um, which is fine, I live with me.
Uh okay, and uh, how did you get along?
Where are you in the birth order and how do you get along with your sisters?
Um yeah, I get along okay with them.
Um, I think we we, we communicate by text these days, but it has, it has been a lot, it has petered out quite a bit just from being apart from them.
Okay, and how did you get along when you were growing up and living together?
Um yeah, growing up and living together, we've we, we got along, we got along pretty well.
Um I, I do have a, I I do have one sister who is um my twin so so so definitely, definitely growing up, I I think um we we, um.
I, I think my childhood was pretty, pretty chaotic in some ways and um, the the two of us being, you know similar similar, similar age um, and we, we kind of thought the same things because we were raised in the same cohort, but she, she kind of was an ally in reasoning, was an ally in, you know, reasoning out a lot of the things that happened when in, in in our childhood.
Okay, all right and uh, what about your mother?
My yeah, what about her?
Uh well um, you mentioned uh, how you got along with your father.
There was aggression and some violence and uh, anxiety around his temper and so on.
Uh, what about your mother?
Um yeah I, I don't I, I don't get along with both my parents.
I, I don't I, I don't really I, I don't really respect, I don't really respect my mother.
I don't think she has I, I don't think she has like a like I, I think like a way that I would describe her is that I, I think I see her as being amoral, which is quite, which is quite accusatory.
But but I do have reasons um oh, i'm sure, and one, one reason, one reason being that yeah, you know my, my dad was, my dad is um my, my dad is like um, he's like a schizophrenic, like um, he's, I mean, do you mean like a literal schizophrenic, or he's just like?
I wouldn't say, I wouldn't class, I don't think he's, I don't think he's like like, I don't think he would be diagnosed as a schizophrenic, But he like.
The best way I'd say it is that like.
I don't know if you know Sam Bucknan, but Sam Bucknan wants yeah cool.
Sam Buckner said that when a narcissist sort of regresses in their in their condition, they become schizophrenic.
Sort of um they, they become kind of psychotic, like they um, like they would detach with reality to to, they would rather.
They would rather detach from reality to justify what, what they think, than to be a part of reality.
So i'd say, i'd say he's that and um yeah, the reason why I say my mom is amoral is because, for all that she, she never condoned, she never condoned.
Um oh, she always condoned him.
She never, she never.
She never stood up for us and condoned his behavior.
And um, even today, it doesn't, doesn't call him out, doesn't draw boundaries.
So yeah, someone like that must be a moral one.
And the way that you were parented is that out of the norm for your culture as a whole?
Um in, in some ways it is a norm, but somewhat the dysfunction.
I would say it's a, it's a okay, all right okay, I think I understand okay.
And um, what is the status of your relationship with your parents at the moment?
Um yeah I, I don't, I don't keep in touch with them.
Um, it's been, it's been fairly.
It's been fairly easier, not being in a proximity, I think.
I think my sisters have moved out as well.
Um, because the parents are crazy.
Mom Scammed of Life Savings00:10:59
Um, I think the the final straw was, um when um when um my, my mom she, but when my mom she um she, she got scammed of of a million dollars.
What in this um yeah yeah yeah yeah she she um yeah she, she took a, she gave, she gave all her life savings and she took a $800, um caveat loan on the house.
So she, she basically took a loan on the house and she, she gave a million dollars to some scammers in Taiwan.
My god, um was that?
I assumed that was a good chunk of your parents life savings.
Um, so that was all that was all my, that was all my mom's savings.
And she, she essentially sold the house like that, the house when we owned the house outright, she had she like, the only way to get the money was to get that 800,000 out of the house.
So yes, essentially she endangered she, she risked um, you know, making herself homeless and also making my sisters homeless and me as well.
It would have been me as well, except that I was overseas right um yeah, that that was.
That was sort of.
Yeah, that was the last straw.
Wow wow wow, that's, that's quite a tale um, and I guess she kept it all secret and and all of that.
Right yeah, so she yeah she, she kept it.
She kept it a secret.
Um she um, she.
When my sisters confronted her, saying why didn't she tell us?
She was like, oh yeah they, they said the.
The scammers said that this was uh, this was a um, this was like a really good investment, but you can't tell anyone.
And that's why, that's why I didn't tell you, because I didn't want to, because maybe you, because maybe you'd like take advantage, which okay.
So she was trying to make extra money, is that right?
Yeah or like, the scammers told her to not tell anyone.
No, but why was she trying to make extra money?
Was she short of money?
Was she trying to pay for something uh important, or why?
Why did she need extra money?
No, no, she, she didn't, she didn't need extra money.
Like, I, she, she, she didn't, yeah, that's, that's, that's the, that's the crazy thing.
And, and, like, um, like, yeah, um, yeah, yeah, like, when this happened, this was, yeah, what it happened, it was, yeah, it was, it was devastating.
I was overseas, but like, I, I thought I was gonna, like, at that point, we, we really thought we were gonna lose a house.
And, like, I grew up in that house.
So, I, like, it was from India.
Oh, no, you said Thailand.
Okay, sorry, okay.
Taiwan, Taiwan.
Taiwan, Taiwan.
Okay, sorry.
Okay.
Yeah, it was, um, it was like a, it was like a AI scam.
Like, I don't, I don't know what it was.
Like, it was some like, like, WhatsApp investment group.
And like, maybe they, they said they were going to be like the second NVIDIA or something like that.
I don't know the details.
But yeah, she didn't, she didn't need the money.
Um, she was doing, she was doing well for herself.
Like, the house, we, we'd, um, we just paid off the mortgage.
Like, it's a, like, just like a really big, nice house.
I love that house.
But she didn't need money.
Like, she, like, yeah, just, but just willingly, like, gave, like, yeah, yeah, like, gave her life savings away, like, gave, like, gave everything away.
And, um, yeah, it's, yeah, and it's, it's, it's funny as well, because, um, like, like my, my mom is someone who on the outside, she presents herself as like a very, very devout, like, Buddhist lady.
So it's like, you know, it kind of recites aphorisms, is kind of seen in the community as someone who's seen in the community as someone who's like, like, very, very upstanding, very charitable, very whatever.
And, and her entire life, she's been, she's been like such a, she's been such a cheap skate as well.
Like, um, like, like, like, I remember being a kid and like, like, like being scared and thinking we couldn't have nice scenes because my mum was such like, so frugal.
And it's like, it's like when something like this happens, it's like, like, all the things that you claim to stand for, like, they don't, they don't mean jack, you know, like, for one, like, like, you claim to be frugal.
Well, you're not, because you just gave a million dollars away.
And, like, you claim to be religious, but you, like, the religious precepts say you can't lie, you lie to your family, don't gamble, and don't, yeah, don't, don't lie, don't gamble, and don't steal.
You stole, you stole basically the resources from our family.
Like, if we were a business partner, if you were my business partner, I'd be suing you.
Like, not that there's anything stupid, there's no money, but oh, I guess I couldn't get it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Like, um, no, no, so she went to the cops and they couldn't get anything back, right?
Um, I, I, I don't know what happened, I don't know what happened to the cops, but yeah, generally, if it's if it's over, if they're based overseas, you can't do anything, and it's um the money was gone.
It's like it's funny as well, because um, how she, apparently, how she how she gave them the money was um she withdrew, she withdrew it by cash.
And apparently, she she drove somewhere to meet someone by car and handed them the cash in the envelope, and that's how she a million dollars in cash, yeah, exactly.
And apparently, it's some cutting, some cutting-edge, like AI company.
Like, why the fuck would they be making you invest by, like, wouldn't if they're so technological, wouldn't they?
I don't know.
Is she stupid?
Sorry, is she stupid?
I think so.
I mean, she might just be low IQ, right?
I hate to put it that way, but she might just be low IQ.
I genuinely think that.
I don't want to be rude, but I think, yeah, I think she, she can't synth, like, I think she can't synthesize sort of a like a cohesive set of values and she can't act, she can't act upon like a set of values.
Like, yeah, she's, I think she's not smart enough to do that.
Like, I don't want to say it's just an IQ thing, but it could be, yeah.
That is kind of the that is a conclusion that I'd come to that.
Um, yeah, she, she is amoral.
She's not, she's not able to be moral, man.
I mean, yeah, that's that's unbelievable.
Uh, did you, do you think, so one of the things that I've sort of noticed over the years is that people who fall for scams, this isn't always the case, but sometimes people who fall for scams fall for scams because they have a sort of deep-seated guilt about how the money was earned.
What would you be implying?
Well, I mean, I could state it.
I don't want to imply anything.
Uh, did your mother feel that the mother that the money that your family got, was it was it earned honorably?
Was it shady?
Was it government stuff?
Was it like, I don't know, maybe your father was like selling weapons to Ukraine?
I don't know.
I mean, obviously not, right?
But, but did your mother, might she have had the impression that the family money was there in some less than honorable fashion?
Well, it was, no, it was on honorably.
It was on honorably.
My parents, my parents were divorced.
Oh.
So when she gave her all of her own life savings, but when my parents are divorced, the house was transferred to her.
And to sort of cover the expenses for the house, my grandparents gave a lot of their own life savings to the house as well.
So in my opinion, her giving that money to scammers, it's house herself.
It came to her through others.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So that's not, but that's not getting, that's not getting the money honorably.
Well, I mean, my grandparents did have genuine goodwill in trying to help her.
It was sort of seen as a.
No, no, I'm not saying that.
No, sorry.
I'm sorry.
I'm not being very clear.
My apologies.
What I mean is that she didn't earn the money.
The money was given to her.
She trunk of it, yeah.
I mean, through a divorce and through her parents gave her the money, right?
So she didn't earn it herself.
She just kind of fell into it through a divorce and through sympathy from her parents, right?
Yeah.
So easy come, easy go.
Sometimes that's the way.
I mean, if it's your own, maybe if it's your own life savings that you're counting out in a parking lot somewhere or some field, that's one thing.
If it's just like money that kind of fell into your lap, we tend to guard it less less so.
But anyway, I mean, that's neither here nor there.
She also gave all of her life savings as well.
She gave her life savings away as well.
Yeah, on top of the house.
Oh, to the scammers.
Yeah, I think the scammers, they just like finessed everything.
Like, like, I think, I think even, yeah, I think it came to the point where, like, she took, she took out 800 on the house.
That was probably the max that any lender could give her.
And the scammers told her to, oh, the scammers told her to come to Taiwan to like, they were like, oh, we'll give you the money, but you just have to come to Taiwan.
So I think, yeah, I think the scammers, I think she was, she was that, like, she, she believed the cons so much that she was willing to do anything that they said.
And then, yeah, I don't think, yeah, I think if she went to Taiwan, they probably would have like made her work in a scam factory or like held her hostage or something.
But I think she was, I think it was to a point where she would have done anything that they said, like she was just that, that into it.
And did she get any paperwork from the handing over the million dollars in cash?
Not that I know of.
I mean, if she did, it was probably all fake anyways.
No, no, I get that.
I'm just wondering.
I mean, did she just hand over a million dollars in cash in the hope of getting some money later in Thailand?
That just seems, I mean, even for less intelligent people, that's quite a stretch.
Yeah, I don't know.
I don't know the details of I wasn't there in real time, but I'd assume no.
I thought I was just like, paper envelopes, give it to someone and drive away.
Okay.
16 And Gone00:03:22
And how old were you when your parents divorced?
I was, I, I was, it started, it started when I was like 11 and it probably dragged out.
And my dad moved out when I was 16.
Oh my God.
I'm sorry about that.
That's horrible.
And do you know why they were why they separated?
Yeah, yeah.
It's like, it's like a whole whole thing to get into.
But so my dad was accusing my mom of cheating with him.
And my dad's crazy.
But he would just, he would come up with these lies and he'd kind of be like, he'd, yeah, he'd come up with these, he'd just like say this insane stuff saying you're bringing people over, you're like, you're doing this like deviant stuff, which it's not like, it was not true.
It's like totally untrue, but he just like insists that it was.
And yeah, I guess like bugged my mom so much.
I was like, I want a divorce that she did agree to it.
And the funny thing was, the funny thing was, my mom's like kind of this like low IQ NPC religious lady.
Like she doesn't have like an ounce of like deviancy.
So like, that was, that just wasn't true.
None of that was true.
Yeah, well, my, my, my dad, and during that time, I know for a fact, my dad did have a strong desire to step outside the marriage.
Apparently, he was, he's a, so he, so, so he, he's a, um, he, he, he's a, he's a, he's a lecturer.
I know for a fact he was like hitting on one of his students in his class.
And he was also like sort of sinkhookers for the marriage.
So um, it was funny because, um, yeah, saying accusing the other person of this deviancy, it probably was to some extent like a projection of, you know, his own guilt or his own shame from kind of the bad things that he wanted.
Yeah, standard operating procedure is to accuse other people of what you're doing.
So yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah, yeah.
But like to go to that extent, like to fabricate stories and stuff like that, it's like it's like, yeah, it's like a whole nother different level of lack of self-awareness and just projection.
Yeah, so the funny thing was, yeah, we, the whole time he was saying it, he was hiding it from us and pretending everything was okay.
Sorry, hide or hiding the separation or the divorce.
All right, are we back?
Hi.
Hi, sorry about that.
Don't know what happened.
Had a wee bit of a hiccup.
Yeah, that was my end.
Oh, it was your end.
Okay.
All right, good.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
So, sorry, you were just talking about how your father was hiding the separation from you.
Yeah, yeah, but my mom basically used me as her emotional tampon.
So, I sort of knew everything the whole time.
Yeah, so that was that was kind of the environment.
Okay.
And did you ever see your parents?
Hiding the Separation00:07:44
I guess not, like, see them successfully resolve any conflicts?
Yeah, no, no, no, I don't, I don't think so.
I think I think it was very much kind of my dad, my dad called the shots, and my mom just did whatever, like whatever he said.
Okay.
Okay.
All right.
Okay.
So, so you didn't grow up, as far as I can see, having any conflict resolution demonstrations, like how to resolve conflicts or anything.
No, not really.
Okay.
And your boyfriend, did he see any good conflict resolution mechanics or language or skills?
No.
Okay.
So, I mean, you've certainly said that you were reading about how to resolve conflicts and so on.
How has that been going?
Sort of what sort of stuff have you been reading, and how has that been working out for you?
Yeah, so it's something that we've started.
Started reading this book like casual conversations.
And most of it is centered around, if someone says something that makes you feel a certain way, don't like take a step back and don't sort of don't react from an emotional place.
Kind of say something like, yeah, I hear what you're saying, but this is how I'm feeling.
It's basically just stuff out, like temporarily, those initial negative emotions.
Okay.
All right.
And when did you guys first start trying to implement that?
Sorry, what was that?
When did you first start trying to implement these ideas?
Yeah, so as for really implementing those conversation skills, that's only been like since since a month ago, roughly.
And I feel like they have been effective in that we haven't been as explosive, but there still seems to be like this bitterness in a lot of our conversations.
Okay.
And that's why we're talking, right?
Because if you're just trying to learn some new skill a week in, I'm sorry, a month in, you've still got a ways to go, right?
Okay, so tell me about the bitterness.
Like, maybe it's like, because there's like a track, you have like a track history in your head of all the times that, you know, of all the times that you argued, that like that you kind of just are, you kind of just are a bit bitter.
Like, like, it's like, because of all the past arguments that you had, you can't really, like, it's like, supposedly, you want to start like a clean state, a clean slate, but you, you can't really, because like the because just the like the negative emotions are still there.
Right.
No, I get that for sure.
I mean, and that's the price that is paid for that kind of escalation, right?
The price you pay is that you then have the memory of that kind of escalation.
And you guys, if I remember rightly, you sort of 10 or more times have threatened to break up, right?
Yeah, yeah.
And like we talk about it, and we talk about it, we make up, oh, say, oh, I'm sorry.
Oh, you know, I know I said this, I didn't mean it.
I know you said this, I could see where you're coming from.
Like, we do reason it out, but just, I don't know, like, maybe, like, the emotion, it's still there.
And like, you can't reason that out.
Well, um, what would it mean to reason out the fear?
Because it's fear, I think.
A lot, a lot of it is just fear.
And what would it mean to say, like, if you have both threatened to relate?
Well, you don't want the relationship to end, right?
Yeah.
And so if he threatens the relationship, then, okay, so let's play this out, right?
So let's say he says in the next fight, get on the next plane and go home, right?
And let's say he means that.
Okay, so what does your life look like if that happens, if the relationship is over and you are flying home?
What does your life look like?
I thought about that.
Worst comes to worse.
I think I could settle all right.
What do you mean by settling?
It would be hard and traumatic.
I wouldn't have a home to go.
I wouldn't have a home to go back to.
So I'd have to find somewhere to rent.
But I think I could find a job in the local area and get settled and start a new.
I don't think I want me wanting to stay in the relationship.
I don't think it's out of a place of desperation or out of a sense of having nowhere else to go.
I think it worse came to worse.
Because it is something that I have thought about.
I think it's both threatened and been threatened with it.
So of course it's something to think about, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
But I'm saying I think I would be okay.
All right.
So why would you be okay?
You just told me earlier.
Sorry, I know this sounds like I'm trying to catch people out.
I'm not.
I'm just a little confused because you said earlier you went quite poetic about him being the one, right?
So if he is the one, then what are you doing being totally fine if it doesn't work out?
Yeah, I guess as far as me being okay, that's kind of just the logistical stuff.
Obviously, emotionally, I'd be cut.
I wouldn't, yeah, I wouldn't, I don't want to think about it.
Supposedly, if it did happen, I probably would just like block it out from my mind and, you know, go back to where it came from and go for the motions and start a new life.
Okay, so it wouldn't be too bad, right?
It would be bad.
No, I didn't say that it wouldn't be bad.
It wouldn't be too bad.
It depends, depends on what you depends on what you mean by that.
It would be pretty bad.
But I wouldn't, I would, I wouldn't suicide.
No, no, no.
I wouldn't say it.
I'm not saying that.
But just, you know, because I was asking, like, how would it be?
And this is sort of one of the ways that you know, if you really love someone, is if the relationship were to end for some reason, it, you know, it'd be like, I'd be completely devastated.
I don't know what I would do.
It would, you know, because they, it would be a little, it'd be like losing an arm or, you know, something like that, right?
Yeah.
And it sounds like you'd be, you know, it would be sad and bad, but you'd be somewhat okay, right?
I mean, no, I would, I would be devastated.
I would be devastated.
But, and like, I'm just saying this and how I would have, would practically approach it because this is something that has been thrown around.
Sure.
So I would obviously be devastated, but I have considered that worst case scenario.
And I, you know, yeah, I would be devastated.
Like, obviously, I don't want it to happen.
Okay.
Now, does your boyfriend know about your parents' history of this threatened breakup, endless divorce, and all that kind of stuff?
Yeah.
Okay.
So with your parents, you said that there was a long sort of breakup, divorce period.
Was that where they were threatening divorce or what was happening during those five years?
Parental Dynamics Conflict00:06:36
Yeah, so my dad was making accusations.
The voice was signed.
Yeah, the divorce was signed.
For a moment, he still lived with us because he needed to find a new, he needed to buy a new house.
So it was during that waiting period.
And yeah, my parents lived in the same house for maybe like two, three years and they didn't speak to each other.
Okay.
Were there threats of separation when you were younger?
I'm leaving you, I'm divorcing you, you know, that kind of stuff?
No, no, not that I know of.
Okay.
But not that I know of, but I think on my boyfriend's side, there was that.
Oh, his parents were threatened to leave each other?
Yeah, yeah.
I think he was even telling me that a few weeks ago, his dad was threatening to send his mom back, which is absurd.
What does that mean?
Oh, because he comes from an immigrant background as well.
And yeah, it's preposterous.
I think his parents, they're still together.
And the emotionally immature bickering cycle is still very, very alive and well with them.
Okay.
And that's similar to what's happening with you guys, right?
I'm not saying it's the same, of course, right?
But it has some similarities to what's happening with you guys, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
Like, I think for me, a lot of my parents' stuff is in the past, but I suppose on his side, that's still very well alive for him.
And to him, it might even be like normal and familiar.
Right.
Okay.
But that's his piece.
That's his piece of the puzzle, I guess.
And how did your parents, when they would have conflicts other than the year or two that they lived together or three years that they did live together and didn't talk to each other, what would happen when your parents would have conflicts?
How would they yell at each other?
How would that happen?
Would this would they yell at each other?
during that period it wasn't it wasn't yelling that i remember it was kind of just like no no i mean sorry when they were talking to each other i guess they weren't yelling at each other when they weren't talking to each other but when they were talking to each other earlier Like my dad would say like accusatory shit and my mom would get sad, but she wouldn't really retaliate.
Or maybe if she did, he would kind of be overpowering in that she felt like she couldn't.
So she kind of just took it.
Okay, so he would be overpowering, like telling her to shut up and stuff?
Not shut up, not shut up.
I would say that the dynamic that my parents have and the dynamics that my boyfriend and I have are quite different.
Because your mother was more passive, is that right?
Yeah, yeah.
I think for my boyfriend and I, we're very much kind of equal in sort of how we argue and stuff.
Okay.
All right.
All right.
I mean, I certainly have some thoughts to share, but I'm happy to hear more if that's helpful to you.
And no, no, yeah.
Okay, so you want to continue this relationship for another four or five years, then maybe get married and have some kids.
Is that right?
Sorry, are we still on?
Yeah, sorry.
Sorry, you were saying I wanted to continue this relationship.
Yeah, get married for a few years.
Yeah, you want to continue this relationship for another, say, four or five years and then maybe get married and have kids, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
And you want your boyfriend at some point to come clean about the relationship with his family, which means he might be disowned.
Is that right?
Yeah.
And if he wants to raise your kids in the Muslim faith, are you okay with that?
I don't mean to say that you shouldn't be.
I'm just curious.
Would I be okay with that?
Yeah, I'll be okay with that.
Like if they read the Quran and stuff like that, you know what I mean?
Raised in the Muslim faith.
I don't just mean they read the Quran.
I mean, raised in the Muslim faith.
Because people tend to become more religious when they become parents.
Yeah, well, that would have to be a conversation on its own.
Like if you were going to ask him, I wanted them to be, if I was okay with them being by the book Muslim, yeah, I wouldn't be able to say yes on that.
Okay, so you would rather they would not be raised in the Muslim faith.
I mean, maybe culturally, like whatever it is, but not in a sort of religious or fundamentalist manner, is that right?
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
And if your boyfriend listens to this conversation, will he be surprised at what he hears, or would this be stuff that he would be pretty familiar with?
No, yeah, he wouldn't be surprised.
Yeah, to be honest, religion isn't something that we have talked a lot about.
Like, nor is it just nor is it something he necessarily enforces me to learn about.
And I don't think he's very guided by that.
I mean, as you said, people are more religious when they get older.
So in particular when they become, yeah, when a man becomes a father, particularly somebody who's got a fairly strong religious beliefs in the family, it tends to go a little more that way, though.
Of course, that's not 100%.
Okay.
Yeah.
So I don't think that's the case, but okay.
Is this, is he the one?
Is this what you want for your life?
Yeah.
Okay.
Then why do you say things that hurt him if you care about him?
And why does he say things that hurt you?
Because you said, I asked you for his virtues and you said he's very caring.
He's very thoughtful.
And then you said, well, but he threatens to dump me on a plane and send me home.
And then he tells me to shut up.
Yeah.
Like, supposedly, if I'd say 99% of the time, he's really, really good.
Give Permission, Not Excuses00:14:50
But say there's that 1% of the time.
Well, not if it's every couple of weeks.
No, no, no.
Not if it's every couple of weeks.
And you had a fight that went on for three or four hours.
That's a nightmare.
That's not what.
That's not like, don't, don't, you know.
I may not be East Asian, but I'm not terrible at math.
That's not 1%.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm aware of that, especially lately when I say the fights are getting more bitter.
Like, if I was going to sort of express as a percentage of, you know, how many negative times versus how many positive times.
Yeah, it is, it is sort of more and more negative.
And even like when we try to be happy, like it feels like it's not as happy.
Sure.
I mean, it erupts.
Because you're tense.
Once you've had the bad times, if you don't resolve them completely, you get tense and you get more nervous.
And it's harder to relax and enjoy your time together.
Right?
Yeah.
Right.
And it's like, how, and it just seems like, like, with that trajectory, it just like it seems like it's just going towards like the bitter end.
Oh, yeah.
No, if this, yeah, if this trend, yeah, if the trend continues, the fight's getting worse, you break up.
And that's the best case scenario.
The worst case scenario is you don't break up, but it's even worse.
Right?
I'm like, yeah, you could be in like 10, 15 years of like, like a bad marriage.
You have kids and you get locked in.
Yeah, and I don't know how to, I don't know how to break that like cycle.
It's like seeing something that I really don't want to happen.
Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's like something's happening in front of your eyes and you don't want it to happen, but it is just happening.
Right.
Okay, so I'm going to yank you off of this bizarre train track determinism thing you've got going on here.
So what's happening in your relationship is happening entirely because you're choosing things.
So let me ask you this way.
When you're out at a restaurant and he's does he ever tell you to shut up or be bitter or mean in public?
No.
Right.
But do you ever do that to him?
No.
Oh, look at that.
You can control your behavior and be nice to each other, right?
So what happens is your standards, when you get in private, your standards collapse.
In other words, you permit yourself, you give yourself permission to do things in private that you would never do in public.
You know, yell at each other, say, shut up, whatever, threaten.
So, so this is just a matter of permission.
You give yourself permission to do these things.
Does that make sense?
And he gives himself permission to do these things.
And I am.
Okay, go ahead.
Like, I am aware of that.
I'm aware that we behave badly, but it's like, it's like, yeah, to your argument, that we do have like, like, we can't control it because you don't do it in public.
But it's like, it's like, sort of like when you're when the when your emotions are up in a moment.
No, no, okay, listen.
So did I listen for like two hours?
Yeah, sorry.
Okay, so can I can I get some words in here?
Thank you.
So you've already told me why, and you just told me again, you've told me why you do these bad things.
It's because you give yourself permission.
And the permission that you give yourself is, well, I'm upset.
I'm angry.
You said when emotions run high, but emotions can run high in public, but you still control yourself.
So what happens is that you have inherited, you know, the worst and most dangerous thing that we inherit from dysfunctional parents is not the bad behavior, but the excuses for the bad behavior.
Because it's the excuses that cause the bad behavior to continue.
Right.
So maybe it's because you called your father mad or insane when he wasn't.
You said he was a lecturer and schizophrenics are generally wandering the streets unshaven with their underpants on their heads.
So he's not that.
He still had a functional middle class job.
No, actually, well, he lost his job because of his schizo.
So, well, okay.
That's fine.
So, I mean, at what age does he lose his job?
Like last year.
Okay, so schizophrenia normally hits late teens, early 20s.
So it may be that he got crazier and crazier over time, but when you were younger, he still had a job and had a functioning marriage and was a functioning member of his society, right?
Yeah, I would say, yeah, I would say he does differ from in that he can keep it in, yeah.
Right.
And your father, I assume, did not beat you in public.
No.
All right, so he's not schizophrenic and crazy, because crazy people will say crazy things even in public.
Yeah.
So he had self-control in public, but he relaxed his self-control in private.
And you and your boyfriend have self-control in public and you relax your self-control in private.
And I think you said things like your father, you know, he had mental illness or he was schizophrenic or he was crazy or he hit us because he was angry.
None of that is true.
I'm sorry to be blunt, but none of that is true.
And that's what's poisoning your relationship with your boyfriend.
Why did he hit you?
What do you mean by that?
Well, I'm going to tell you.
Oh, right.
So why did your father hit you?
Because he wanted to and it gave him pleasure or it gave him relief from negative emotions.
He chose to hit you.
He didn't hit you because he was crazy.
He didn't hit you because he was angry.
Crazy people don't restrain their craziness in public.
I know this.
I have a genuinely crazy mother and I would get calls from the mall to come pick her up because she was doing crazy things at the mall.
So now he may have ended up that way for sure.
I mean, but certainly when we're talking about when you were younger.
So your father did not hit you because he was angry.
Because people can get angry without being abusive, right?
I mean, you've heard me be a little annoyed at times in this call, which is fine.
It's not the end of the world.
But I haven't been mean, right?
No.
So angry.
You've asked questions, but you've been there.
Yeah, yeah, no, but I mean, when I started to tell you, here's what I need to say, and you interrupted me within 20 seconds, I had to say, let me talk, right?
Or with the interruptions that happened earlier and so on, right?
So you could be annoyed or angry or upset.
It doesn't mean that you become abusive.
Your father didn't hit you because he was angry.
Because what that means in your mind is that if you get angry, then you can lower your standards of behavior.
And then you could say, well, I said what I said because I was angry.
And this has been, when you listen back to the call, this has been a constant theme of what we've been talking about is the excuses for people's behavior.
Sorry, you just cut out.
Could you repeat that again?
Yeah.
So what's been a constant factor in our call has been excuses.
And this is not a criticism.
I'm just pointing out the causality.
That you have excuses for people's behavior.
I was angry.
He was upset.
My father was crazy, blah, blah, blah.
And the excuses are what caused the behavior to reproduce.
Because if you have it in your mind, if you have this principle that says, well, I'm angry, so I can say stuff.
I can say mean things.
And then later I can create or give the excuse.
Well, I didn't mean it, right?
Which means that that puts your partner in an impossible situation, right?
Because if you're having a conflict with your partner and they say bad things or mean things and then later say, oh, I didn't mean it, then what happens the next time you're in a conflict and they say something and you say, oh, you don't mean that.
Oh, you're not serious.
Oh, I don't have to believe you.
What happens?
Well, they get more angry because it's like, no, you've got to take me seriously.
I don't want you to just dismiss what I'm saying.
It's like, but you keep telling me to dismiss what you're saying because you say things and then you say you don't mean them.
So saying I don't mean it is a cop-out.
And it is a way of saying, well, I can say bad things to my partner if later I can wave the magic wand called, I didn't mean it.
I was upset.
I was angry, you said this.
All of these things are ways to lower standards of behavior.
And they're excuses for lowering standards of behavior.
So the challenge in relationships is to not lower standards of behavior.
Now, of course, that's an easy thing to say.
How do we achieve it?
Well, we neither give nor receive excuses.
We do not give or receive excuses for bad behavior.
For saying, I'm putting you on the next flight.
It's over.
Go home.
I don't want you here.
It's, you know, we're broken up, you know, or shut up or, you know, like all of these, you know, mean things that are horrible to say.
We say them because we give ourselves permission to say them and we give themselves up permission to say them because we have excuses, right?
We excuse our bad behavior.
Oh, I was angry or I'll later, I can say mean things and then later say, well, I didn't mean it.
And that's an excuse.
So the reason why it feels like you're sliding into this canyon of worse and worse behavior is you have yet to challenge and overthrow the excuses that give yourself permission to do and say these nasty things.
Does that sort of make sense?
Yeah, yeah.
So you're saying that basically, like talking to me, it's been a pattern where I kind of give myself and other people excuses for saying things.
But and like, I say it's an excuse, but even though saying an excuse excuses it, the truth is that you're not really excusing it because the negativity is still there.
Well, and excuses are promises of repetition.
Whatever we make excuses for, we're promising to do again.
So in the big fight you had with your boyfriend, where he said, I need to talk and you need not to interrupt and you say okay.
And he says, ah, you just interrupted.
Shut up.
Then he said, well, I said shut up because you said something, right?
That's not causal.
Why did he say shut up?
Because he gave himself permission to say it.
Because you were raised with parents who gave themselves permission to do terrible things.
They gave themselves permission.
And permission is granted when excuses are accepted.
There are behaviors that need to be inexcusable.
And one of them is you do not threaten the relationship.
You do not threaten the relationship.
And neither does he.
That is inexcusable.
In my experience, when people have threatened the relationship, it doesn't continue.
I mean, it may drag on for a while.
But if you guys have taken these giant acts of it's over to the base of the relationship, you've threatened the bond and you've said, if I don't get my way, I'm dumping you.
I'm leaving you.
It's over.
If you don't submit, and that's cruel.
And that is inexcusable behavior.
Now, this doesn't mean that you can't find a way to forgive it and move on, but you can never say, well, I said that because I was upset, or I said that because you said this, or I said that, but I didn't really mean it, right?
No, no, those are all excuses.
Sorry, go ahead.
As far as Xing the relationship, it's been like when I say I've done that, like the last time I've done that was ages ago.
This is more of like an issue on his end.
And I have, yeah, I did lay down the law and saying, no, you can't do that.
Like I was, yeah, because it's cruel.
And yeah, it is extremely distressing.
So as for that, yeah, I've said that to him and he hasn't done it since.
Okay, good.
So once you, so hang on.
So once you said something is inexcusable, it stopped happening.
So this kind of supports what it is that I'm saying.
Sorry, you were going to say?
Yeah, yeah.
And it's yeah, the issue here, I think the issue of me here, it isn't even necessarily saying bad stuff, but I think one thing that he had, one thing that he has complained that that I do is he he basically he basically makes a point.
And like, maybe I say something that's like, so maybe he says something and then I say something and he's like, hey, you know, I found that I found that hurtful.
And then I say, oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't, I wasn't trying to be hurtful.
I said this because I was trying to explain so and so.
And he and he says, yeah, but it was hurtful.
And I kind of think it's like offensive that he misunderstood me.
So from his criticism to me is that I stick to a point and I don't back down.
And I think my issue sometimes is in those moments, I'm not empathetic towards him.
I'm more focused in making, like sort of being like logical, like to a point of being like a little autistic or not autistic, but like kind of being like dismissing someone's emotions.
But how do you know for sure that what you said is not hurtful?
Or that you did, you may have had an unconscious goal of being hurtful?
Yeah, and sometimes it is.
And sometimes it is.
Sometimes it is just the way that it sometimes it, I don't know, it's yeah, it's hard to say because I can't, I don't have an example on top of my mind at the moment.
Well, because if I'm in a conflict with someone and I say what you said was kind of hurtful, and they said, oh, I didn't mean to be hurtful, they're calling me paranoid.
Understanding Feedback Dynamics00:07:35
Yeah.
Like I experienced something negative.
Oh, I had no, like, you know, if someone says to me, hey, it's a beautiful sunny day.
And I say, well, I find that extremely hurtful.
I'll be like, well, I'm just talking about a sunny day.
Right.
So that would be me being kind of paranoid and whatever, misinterpreting things basically.
Right.
So if he says, I experienced something as hurtful and you immediately say, oh, I didn't mean it to be hurtful in any way, shape or form, then, you know, you're kind of calling him paranoid.
No, maybe he is paranoid.
I don't know, but it's volatile.
So in saying, I didn't mean it to be hurtful, you're actually being kind of hurtful.
Like, so, so you need to not, and that's defensive, right?
Because you need to say, gee, okay, well, tell me more.
What did you experience?
What did you associate, right?
Rather than say, oh, no, no, I didn't mean to be, right?
That's, that's defensive.
And you need to be curious.
If you say something and he says, I experienced that as hurtful, then you need to ask him questions.
Well, what did you experience?
And how did you feel?
And, right?
As opposed to me, oh no, no, I didn't, I didn't write.
So that just cuts off the communication, right?
Yeah.
And that is like, that is something, yeah, that is something that I'm aware of and we have talked about.
And I, I feel like I have been getting better at that by gradations.
It is still that sometimes I don't when things get heated.
Like it just seems like when things get heated, a lot of things that we that a lot of things that we know we shouldn't do go out the window.
Well, but I think that's a choice.
That's a choice.
That's a choice.
Yeah.
So my point is that that's a choice.
There are circumstances in which you lower your standards and you need to commit to not lowering those standards.
If you guys need to go and argue in a park so that you're in public, so that you're nicer to each other, then go do that.
Right.
So if you wouldn't say these mean things in public, then go be in public and have the fight.
Did you see what I mean?
Like whatever you need to do.
Yeah, whatever you need to do to not say these mean things, you should do.
But it comes down to a commitment.
Will not like in every conversation, we have a bunch of stuff that is on the table for us to say, right?
So, if you, if you and your boyfriend were low on money for whatever reason, and and he came over to you and he said, Hey, you know, let's go rob a gas station.
What would you say?
Like, yeah, no, no, no, that's not like whatever we're going to do to solve our money issues, it's not going to be robbing a gas station, right?
Yeah, and it you just have to have the same thing with being mean to each other: like, no, I'm not robbing a gas station, and no, I'm not telling you to shut up, and no, I'm not telling you it's over.
I am like, that is not on the table of things.
Like, if your boyfriend said, We should finish this fight on Mars, you'd say, What?
No, we're not, no, it's not on the table to finish this fight on Mars, and it should equally not be on the table for you guys to say mean things to each other because you care about each other, and if you care about each other, you should want what's best for each other, and you should not be mean to each other, if that makes sense.
Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure, for sure.
And I guess it's like obviously I do know this stuff, but um, I guess, how do you how do you implement it so it so it sticks?
Like, like I feel like I feel like awareness is the first step.
Do you feel that you're coachable as a whole?
Let me just ask you this question: Do you feel that you're coachable as a whole?
Have you ever taken sports coaching or other kinds of coaching?
Um, yeah, I think I'm I think I think I'm decent.
Okay, so tell me about your experience being coached.
Um, like, like in jobs, and like in jobs and at work and stuff, like okay, what about what about in non-what about in non-paid situations?
Like, like, for example, well, I mean, you must have friends coaching you, uh, people giving you feedback, uh, sports, uh, a coach in sports or somebody giving you uh feedback.
I assume that you didn't get any good feedback from your family, but what about other situations?
Yeah, like, yeah, there have, there have been instances where I didn't play sports, but well, I can tell that.
So, the reason I'm telling you this is I find you extremely uncoachable.
Uh, just be blunt with you, and I'll tell you why, because every time I bring something up, you say the same thing: no, no, no, I know that.
No, no, I've gotten better at that.
No, no, that's more of his issue, right?
You, you rush to tell me that my feedback is something you already know, and you just did it again for like the fifth or sixth time.
No, no, no, I know this, I know this, but just how do I implement it, right?
Yeah, oh, no, no, I used to do this, but I'm much better now, and right, no, I've identified that, and it's his issue, like, so I don't know what to add to the conversation because you know it all.
Yeah, yeah, fair enough.
And I mean, like, you're calling me up for coaching, you're calling me up for coaching, and you're telling me, no, no, no, I fixed that.
Oh, no, I know all of that, no.
And listen, maybe you are so advanced at 25 that me at 59 can't offer you any good advice, maybe.
But then the question is, why is your relationship in such a mess if you know it all?
No, no, I mean, no, no, thanks for the advice and like your feedback, like that, that probably gives me insight in like how I come across in the arguments.
Well, I just want to be honest with about my experience of you, which is that you're kind of a know-it-all in my experience, because I keep giving, first of all, I listen for a long time and then I try to give you some feedback, and you keep talking over me.
And then I try to give you some more feedback because, yeah, I already know that stuff.
I try to give you more feedback.
Yeah, yeah, but that's his issue.
I try to give you more feedback.
Yeah, yeah, but I'm getting better at that.
Blah, blah, blah.
Like, It's impenetrable.
I can't get information across to you.
Yeah, fair enough.
And like, that's probably that's probably been echoed.
That's probably been echoed by him in our arguments as well.
So, well, and I assume this is because you had this highly dysfunctional parents and you had to resist all of their advice.
In other words, taking the good advice, like taking the advice of your parents would have been pretty bad, right?
For sure, yeah.
Like, I feel like I'd like to figure out everything when I learned.
Right.
So, are you aware that you have a tough time taking feedback because your parents were insane and gave you bad feedback that you had to resist like crazy?
No, you're making me realize that now.
Like, I feel like now I'm like, you saying that has kind of like given me an intuitive.
And I said, look, I really sympathize with that.
This is not any, I'm not trying to nag or criticize you or anything, but I'm just pointing out that if you got really bad feedback or the feedback from your parents was just really bad negative, you had to just, yeah, yeah, yeah, and just go on, right?
You couldn't fight back, you couldn't resist, you couldn't tell them they're crazy or stupid or wrong or dumb or something like that.
And so you just had to kind of, yeah, yeah, yeah, I got it sorted, I got it handled, thank you, appreciate the input, blah, blah, blah.
And I think that's a mechanic that's jugging away in our conversation, which I think I understand.
But and I say, again, I sympathize with the origin of it, but it does mean that it's like pretending everything's okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ethnic Cultural Trauma Bonds00:02:29
But it's not okay.
Well, or it could be that you are very advanced and I can't give you any particular feedback.
I mean, my overall feeling is that, I mean, if you were a close friend of mine and you were saying, is he the one?
I would say, I don't think so.
I think you guys have a bit of trauma bond.
I think there's enmeshment here.
I think that the ethnic, the cultural differences are very large.
I think he's still scared of his family, which means that he's still dominated and ruled by his family quite a bit, as are you.
And this is not a criticism.
It's just because you're in your 20s and you're just a lot closer to your childhood than middle age.
And I would also say that if you guys want to have kids and you don't have any particular cultural roots, you don't have any family and you're going to have biracial kids, right?
Half East Asian and half Indian, that's an unusual combination.
And I don't know if you've looked into the challenges that biracial kids have with identity and mental health and so on.
It's a real challenge.
It's different, like, you know, Waysian, right?
The white and Asian mix, like in California and so on, there's lots of sort of half whites, half Asians, and so on.
But, you know, wherever you land, I'm pretty sure that the combination of East Asian and South Asian is quite rare, which means, okay, well, if you have kids, if you have kids, where are they going to fit in?
Are they going to fit into the Asian culture?
Probably not, because Asians tend to be quite insular that way.
The Indian culture, well, I don't know.
I mean, you don't seem to have a lot of love for the Indian culture, which I can understand in the way that it's manifesting in your boyfriend's family.
But, you know, have you thought about your kids and where they're going to fit in?
Because they're going to be a very tiny minority of people like that in the world.
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, the Waysians have had their sometimes it's not even about how well you fit in.
Even the Waysians have identity issues.
Yeah, they do, right?
And it's tough.
And, you know, heaven forbid, God forbid they ever need a transplant of any kind, right?
That's going to be impossible.
And listen, this is sort of why I was asking earlier about, you know, what is the great passion here?
What is the great love?
The great.
So, I mean, you face a massive amount of barriers, right?
Religious, ethnic, cultural, uh, you both come from highly dysfunctional families.
Life Better Without Babies00:14:42
And have you been through, have either of you been through therapy?
Um, no, I guess this is like one of the first steps for me.
Well, yeah, yes, and you've been you've been together for three years.
I know two of them are long distance.
You've been together for three years, so for three years, you've been trying to work on the relationship.
And if I understand it correctly, it's getting worse, not better.
Yeah.
Now, if after three years of working on something, things are getting worse, not better, it may not be the thing.
You know, if I've been working, if I've been planning on working on a restaurant and I've been gears and I had the restaurant open for a year and my sales are going down, not up, you know, would I say, well, this is this is going to be the business for the rest of my life?
Like, I don't know about that.
I don't know about that.
And especially if you guys have, and I know you haven't done it for a while and he stopped doing it, but especially if you have threatened the relationship, that leaves a permanent tattoo on the heart.
Like, that is something you can't undo.
That is like, okay, I'm better off without you.
The moment you say to someone, I'm better off without you, to me, the relationship in its current form is dead.
Maybe you can find some other form or whatever it is.
But if someone says to me, my life is better off without you in it, okay, then they've just told me what they believe.
Now, either they truly believe it, in which case I shouldn't be in their life if I'm making it worse, or they don't really believe it, but they're willing to say that shit just to bully me, which is frankly fucked up beyond words.
So the moment that you guys, and maybe this is the lesson to get out of this relationship, that the moment you say to someone, I would, my life would be better off without you in it, the relationship as it stands is no more.
Because how are you supposed to be on the receiving end of that?
How are you supposed to be like, okay, let's get up tomorrow and go get some waffles when someone has said to you, my life is better without you in it?
Oof, heartbreaking.
Yeah.
And I think that's the bitterness is what are we doing here?
There aren't great virtues.
You said yourself, you're not a particularly good person.
I mean, yet.
Obviously, we're all struggling towards virtue.
So I understand that.
But, you know, he doesn't seem to be particularly noble because the one thing you said is he's kind and thoughtful, but he's also cruel and malicious at times.
And you say, well, it's not that often.
So what?
I mean, to take a silly example, a serial killer spends most of his time not killing anyone.
And, you know, you could have a 40-year marriage with only one affair that lasted for a weekend.
That's a tiny, tiny, but but it matters, right?
The negative stuff matters much more than the positive stuff.
I mean, when was the last time you guys had three months of smooth sailing, good fun, and no fights?
Like, yeah, probably a few months ago.
And I don't even know if that was even three months.
Yeah, I mean, you should.
I mean, I'm not saying I'm any kind of objective standard, but my wife and I have maybe one conflict a year and never raised voices and never name-calling, just something we disagree about.
And we have to work it out.
And it's more strenuous than where are we going to eat dinner or something like that.
So, but that's like once a year and no threats, no escalations, no name-calling, no bullying.
No, like that would be, it's just crazy stuff.
Just crazy stuff.
Like, have you guys ever had like a, like, have you ever had like a, like a, like a rock patch where there were more disagreements than usual?
Or has it generally been pretty smooth?
Uh, no, I don't think we've ever had a rough patch.
I mean, we certainly had our stresses in life, but we're a team.
We come together on the stresses.
We don't turn on each other.
So, no, I would say there have been, I can't remember.
I mean, it's been 23 years we've been married, and I can't remember any particular time where stuff is clustered.
But a marriage should be mostly wonderful.
A relationship should be mostly wonderful, like 99%.
And the 1% should not be horrible.
I've never had a horrible conflict with my wife.
So I guess, yeah, you're saying by the standards of like a healthy relationship, this is like it's, yeah, this is not good.
This is not good at all.
It's not good.
It's abnormal.
It's, yeah, it's definitely, I would not classify it as healthy if you're threatening the bond and he's telling you to shut up and there's pretty horrible conflicts that last for hours that occur every couple of weeks.
And I think, because, you know, if he was the greatest guy ever and you were just permanently happy, you wouldn't sit there and say, well, maybe I'll get married when I'm 30.
I think.
And, you know, the relationship, I doubt the relationship will last that long simply because there's a biological thing that kicks in, particularly for women, right?
Because you're going all in on this guy.
If it's not this guy, then who is it going to be?
Probably no one for kids.
Because if you're with this guy for seven or eight years and then you break up, you won't be fit to date anyone else for years because you're too pair bonded.
And so then you're going to get into your mid-30s and you're going to try and find some guy and have kids.
And I mean, forget it.
That's like, so if you are going to stick with this guy for the next couple of years or until you're 30 or whatever, and then get married.
And, you know, and if it doesn't work out, what happens is, and it's around the five-year mark from what I've seen.
This is not an absolute rule, but it's not a bad rule of thumb that after about five years of being together, if there are no kids, your body would just reject him.
Like, it's just, I'm telling you, I've seen it a whole number of times.
You'll just wake up one morning, you look at this guy, and he'll be gross to you.
Because your body, your womb, your eggs, your fallopian tubes, your uterus, the whole thing is trying out to have children.
And it's like, okay, so your body assumes if there's no kids after a couple of years, your body just assumes that he's infertile and you need to find another man.
And your body will turn on him.
Like it won't even be a conscious thing.
You'll just wake up and you're like, because your body is, what is your body designed to do?
Make more bodies, make babies.
That's what male bodies are designed to do.
It's what female body.
That's what, that's the whole reason we're here.
That's what we're all about.
And if you can't, like, if you're around this guy year after year with no babies, I don't know for sure.
Obviously, I'm just telling you what I've seen.
I can't even tell you how many times I've seen this play out.
But you just wake up and it's just like, oh, this guy, like, no, you'll hate his smell.
You'll hate his laugh.
You'll hate his hair.
You'll hate his teeth.
You'll hate everything.
Because your body will be like, nope, we need to go make babies and we're not having babies here.
So we need to be somewhere else.
That's why I'm sort of asking about the five-year thing.
Sorry, go ahead.
Yeah, that's interesting.
I've never heard that before.
So you're saying that that would hit around 35?
No, that's going to hit you in the next year or two, right?
Because it's after about five years of being together if there's no babies.
Because you don't have the runway that he has.
Like he can wait because he can have kids into his 50s, 60s, 70s, right?
But you can't, right?
35 is geriatric pregnancy.
So if you want to have kids, if this is not the guy that you want to spend the rest of your life with, that's why I asked at the beginning, is this your lifelong guy?
If this isn't the guy you want to spend the rest of your life with, or if this isn't the guy you want to have kids with, you can't afford to keep dating him because you don't have the time.
Now, if you don't want kids, whatever, then you can have your playtime or whatever, right?
But if you want to have kids, then you're in your mid-20s.
You're already locked into a relationship for three years.
You've got to make a decision, which means you've got to talk to him about, okay, how are we going to raise the kids?
What's your status with Islam?
What's going to happen with your family?
Okay, what happens if you are disinherited?
You know, how much is that?
Are you going to resent me?
If you like, I mean, God forbid this guy gets disinherited from his family and then for some reason your relationship doesn't work out.
Can you imagine?
Oh, yeah, for him?
Well, for you too, because you've got a conscience as well.
You're like, oh, I got bro disinherited from his family and then I woke up not liking his smell and dumped him.
You feel like the spider queen or something, right?
So you guys are heading into territory that is serious commitment.
He might ditch his entire family and culture for you.
And y'all aren't even married yet because you're moving in ways that equal marriage, but you're not getting married.
And you're also not asking the foundational questions you need to ask to figure out if you're going to be compatible, not as, you know, cool kids who are doing the digital nomad lifestyle and having fun in exotic places, but in the actual business of marriage, which is the having and raising of children.
You haven't even really talked much about how you might raise your children, which means that you're playing at a relationship more than seriously saying, okay, what is this for?
What are our values?
Do we want kids?
How are we going to raise them?
You haven't even figured out where you're going to live, which is, you know, fine.
I get the digital nomad thing.
But it's playing at a relationship, in my view, more than locking in and being really serious.
And because you're playing at it, you can afford to break it.
Whereas if you say, okay, this is the guy for my whole life, this is who I'm going to have my Indian Asian children with.
So I can't mess this up.
I can't say mean things.
So you guys are able to say mean things to each other because you're not in love.
If you're genuinely in love, nobody could pay you enough to say mean things to each other.
Somebody could give me a million dollars to tell my wife to shut up.
I'd say, nope.
Wouldn't do it.
Wouldn't do it.
No, we are in love.
No, because if no, no, because if you're in love, you don't say mean things to each other.
That's what love is.
Because if you think that love is combined with saying mean things to each other, God help your children.
Because you'll be angry at your children too.
You'll be annoyed at your children too, as will he.
Are you going to yell at your children?
Are you going to tell them to shut up?
Are you going to call them stupid?
Disobedient, selfish.
If you love people, you don't say mean things to them.
This shouldn't be controversial.
I know it's kind of controversial, but you don't.
You love them.
You support them.
You want the best for them.
You want them to be happy.
And I would as soon say something derogatory to my wife as I would pound the back of my hand with a hammer.
Because hurting her is like hurting myself.
It's not on the table.
It's inconceivable.
And you guys, I'm telling you, you have not experienced love in your family.
He has not experienced love in his family.
I'm sure you guys have a lot of affection for each other.
I'm not denying that.
I'm sure maybe there's a sexual bond and there's certainly some intellectual bonds and maybe there's some trauma bonds.
But when you love someone, you don't hurt them and you don't say mean things to them and you don't tell them to shut up and you don't bully them and you don't fight them and you don't make up excuses.
And that's love.
And you didn't experience that growing up.
I'm really sorry about that.
I really am.
He didn't experience it growing up.
And so you think that love is compatible with saying, my life is better off without you.
It's not.
You don't say, this is my best employee.
This is the greatest employee we have.
This person is essential to the business.
And over the last six months, I fired them three times.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right?
No, but seriously, that's what I'm trying to get across.
You can't hurt someone you love.
You can't.
I mean, does that mean you'll never do anything that hurts them?
No, of course, right?
I mean, we can all be thoughtless or careless or whatever it is, right?
But if you love someone, nobody could pay you any amount of money to insult them or hurt them or tell them that their life is better off without them.
Just not going to happen.
And I just, I just need to denormalize whatever's going on with you guys and say, this is not good.
It is not sustainable.
It's not healthy, in my opinion.
I'm not saying you can't fix it.
What do I know, right?
But don't have this as your standard and don't have this as, well, you know, we're upset.
Well, all couples do this, blah, blah, blah.
Bullshit.
Bullshit.
All couples do not do.
Maybe most couples do.
I don't care.
It doesn't matter.
But it's not all couples and it's not healthy, in my opinion.
Yeah.
And yeah, supposedly, one reason that probably contributed to my hesitancy in thinking about children is because we talk to it that way.
But yeah, but to your point.
Yeah, maybe because maybe we feel it's okay that we lash out at each other like that because we haven't fleshed out a lot of important things.
Because it's sort of, you know, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not marriage-minded, if you don't have a common goal, then you are fucking around.
And like that, that's is no, no.
And yeah, yeah, I guess a lot of my attitude towards his family, to the religion thing, it's been like, oh, you know, we'll, oh, it'll work out.
We'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
No, don't do that, though.
Don't do that.
Yeah.
Like to you, hearing you as like an outsider, you're like asking hard questions, but like, well, you need to choose, you need to choose your boyfriend and your husband on the basis of what's best for your future children.
Will this guy be the best possible father for your children?
Will he be a great, kind, patient, warm, loving, and wise father?
Because that's what you're choosing.
You are choosing the father of your children and you're making a decision on your children's behalf.
Choosing Wisely for Your Kids00:03:59
And what was your big complaint about your mother?
She didn't choose a good father for you, right?
She chose a bad father for you, right?
Yeah.
So that's the question you have to ask yourself.
Is he the best father I can have for my children?
Because you're choosing on their behalf.
You get a choice.
They don't.
You, maybe he's great in bed.
I don't know, right?
So then you have all of that fun, but that's not for your kids, obviously, right?
So you're choosing a guy to be the father of your children.
Your mother chose badly, right?
Yeah, pretty badly.
Very badly.
Yeah, so that was a, yeah, that was very badly.
Come on.
Guy was a hitter and crazy, right?
And projected and unstable.
So when you look at him, looking at him as a boyfriend is a teenage mentality.
And I'm sorry to sound negative, but it is.
Because, you know, who's going to take me to the prom?
He's cute.
He's funny.
Blah, blah, blah.
Right.
And that's fine.
Nothing wrong with that when you're young, but you're mid-20s.
You're not a kid anymore.
You've been an adult for seven years or more.
So you need to start dating based upon who's going to be a great father for your future children because that's what you wish your mom had done.
And that's what you need to do.
Now, if this guy, and you don't have to answer this question, right?
Because it's a big question.
And we'll end up here because we had a good old chat.
But if you look at this guy and you say, this man, I couldn't choose a better father for my children.
He's got the skills.
He's got the warmth.
He's got the intelligence.
He's got the wisdom.
He's got the maturity.
He is the best father I could choose for my children.
Put a ring on it.
Do whatever you need to do to get him to the altar.
But if you look at him and you look at him through the eyes of a child and you say, ooh, I don't know, man, he's got a bit of a temper.
He's kind of volatile.
Because the last thing you want in this life is to end up reproducing for your children what you experienced yourself, right?
Yeah, for sure.
And if this guy, if this guy has a temper and he's volatile and he's aggressive, oof, don't do it, man.
Don't do it.
You do not have the right to make that decision on behalf of your children.
You need to date.
If you want to have kids, you need to date with the intention of who's best for your kids.
And if he's not the guy, you're going to have to grit your teeth and find the guy.
Yeah, yeah.
But the playtime part, I think, is probably over after three years.
You've got to make decisions based upon what's best for your kids.
I'm so sorry.
I'll let you have the final word.
My apologies.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
So I either either make the decision to leave or act as if this is going to be for real and not to, yeah, not to basically F around.
Okay, what was my last speech about?
I just want to make sure that landed.
And yeah, B, like don't think on your behalf.
Think of what your kids would want.
And have like basically choose the person that would be the best for them and not repeat my own childhood because that would be, yeah, that would be the last thing.
Yeah, marriage is, yeah, marriage isn't about you.
It's about what's best for your kids.
Now, you being happy with their father, blah, blah, blah.
That's good for the kids and all that.
But that would be my suggestion.
All right.
Well, let's end here.
I really do appreciate the conversation and I'd love to hear how things go moving forward.
And I certainly wish you the very best as I wish for your boyfriend as well.
Yeah, no problem.
Thanks a lot.
Thanks a lot for the child.
Definitely listen back to it, see how I came across and get some points in that battle.
No, I really think that you did help me think about something seriously.