Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux - My Family Makes Me Lie?!? CALL IN SHOW

Jan. 16, 2026 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:27:19

My Family Makes Me Lie?!? CALL IN SHOW

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	In a recent call in, you spoke with a listener struggling to find friendships as a new mother.
	You suggested looking out for red flags early on when you meet someone.
	For romantic relationships, this makes sense.
	The stakes are high when choosing the future father of your children.
	And I'm happy to say I picked an incredible man as the father of my kids.
	I met him through your community 10 years ago.
	But with friendships, it feels more like a gray area.
	These are not people we live with or even see every day.
	And community is supposedly incredibly important for raising children.
	Plus, as a mom of three boys and no daughters, it would be nice to have some female friendships.
	We homeschool, we're defood, we're not Christian, so we don't have much of a built-in community.
	I want to have good people around our family, but how good do our friends need to be?
	For example, several of the women in my social circle have recently become single moms or got dangerously close.
	And it's difficult to stay friends with these women after such a huge clash in values.
	They are not abusive to me, but I don't feel free to be honest and open with them anymore.
	Part of me feels like I'm being too judgmental.
	Like it's the 1960s and divorcees are banned from social activities.
	But another part of me doesn't want to be near the toxicity.
	Then there is the mom friend who has a son who is supposedly on the spectrum for autism.
	She's a long-distance friend who used to listen to your show, but doesn't anymore.
	And I've never met her son in person, but everything she tells me about him sounds like typical boy behavior, not autism.
	I pushed back on what she told me, asking lots of questions over several months, but eventually she got defensive and politely told me to back off.
	Our friendship was awkward for a while after that, and now we haven't spoken in months.
	Again, she was not abusive to me, but I wasn't comfortable being open anymore.
	And again, am I being too judgmental?
	Part of me thinks I should just support her, but another part of me is scared she's munchhausened by proxying her son.
	Women culture doesn't allow for much assertiveness of moral clarity.
	In fact, it's be supportive or else face ostracism.
	I worry that if I want to have female companionship and regular play dates for my kids, I have to lower my standards.
	What is a philosopher queen to do?
	Yeah, that's a lot.
	That's meaty stuff.
	And yeah, I feel for you.
	I live with two females.
	Lovely though it is.
	Occasionally I do need to broad up from time to time.
	But I understand, I think, a little bit of where you're coming from.
	So I guess my first question, the first question that comes to mind is if you could tell me a little bit about this toxicity.
	You said became single moms or almost became single moms.
	What does that mean?
	What happened?
	So I, I mean, okay, let's do some case studies here, right?
	So I had a friend.
	Okay, sorry, it's hard to know where to start with it.
	Because the dangerously close one, actually, I was thinking about it.
	I wasn't sure if it really counts because it was actually my half-sister who I don't talk to most of my family, but I was still in contact with, you know, a couple people from the family.
	And my half-sister almost, like, she had an affair.
	It was an emotional affair, but anyway, I wasn't sure if that counts.
	So that was the dangerously close to becoming a divorcee.
	And again, I know we can't do too many details, but how far did the emotional affair go?
	It wasn't anything physical.
	It was just like super flirting and things like that.
	Well, it would have been physical if they were, they were long distance.
	So this was someone that she knew from her 20s.
	She's about 60.
	She knew him before and had had a sexual relationship with him in the past.
	Old friends or whatever.
	And they reconnected and started talking a lot.
	And it did eventually speak.
	It was only not a sexual affair because they weren't physically in the same space.
	basically called it off because he has a wife and family.
	Oh, so they're both married with kids.
	And I mean, this is why contacting exes is just such a bad idea as a whole.
	And it's also amazing how a woman can keep aflame for 40 years.
	That's that's wild.
	Okay.
	So she got in touch with an do you know who got in touch with him?
	She contacted him.
	Ah, okay.
	So she contacted him and they were passionate and yearning, but over sort of texts and messages or phone calls or things like that, if people even use the phone anymore.
	And then he cut it off because it was bad for his marriage.
	Yes.
	But if the end you, but your belief is that if they'd been in the same location, it would have been a done deal.
	They would have had consummated the affair.
	Well, it's kind of a gray area because I guess they sexted and like had like phone something.
	I don't know.
	No, no, I'm aware of all the tentacles of technology that I think they're counts.
	Yeah, I think that's yeah, I think so.
	I mean, it's certainly it's cheating, whether you want to call it a physical affair.
	If it's, I guess, phone sex is oral sex.
	I don't know.
	But so that's definitely an affair.
	And that's pretty, pretty vile.
	Yeah.
	And I, you know, I told her that she was being crazy.
	And she's just like, hang on, hang on.
	Hang on.
	It's girl talk.
	Not crazy.
	Crazy we could have sympathy for.
	What is it?
	It's immoral.
	Yeah.
	It's immoral.
	Now, I know that for a lot of female relationships, and male too, but a lot of female relationships, the word immoral is like kryptonite.
	Like it just, it destroys the whole thing.
	Because it's not, it's not crazy, right?
	Crazy is like, what do you mean you drove your motorcycle in the rain?
	You know, like that's, that's crazy, right?
	This is breaking the vows.
	This is harming her marriage.
	This is now creating a secret she has to keep from her husband forevermore.
	This is like risking the entire structure.
	This is lying.
	It's cheating.
	It's wrong.
	Did she ever confess?
	So, yes.
	So, I mean, sort of.
	So I don't know everything she told her husband.
	She supposedly told him everything, you know.
	I don't believe that.
	I don't think she told him everything.
	I remember at the time, it was, it was so gross.
	It was, it was like, I knew all the women knew, basically.
	Like, she's very close with our aunt.
	So the aunt knew.
	All the women knew.
	All the women knew.
	It was, I've lost our husbands, like all of our husbands knew, too, because we were talking to our husbands about it.
	Oh, my God.
	So this guy was being text cucked and everybody knew but him.
	Yes.
	And stuff.
	I almost, I wanted to tell him.
	I wanted to tell him.
	Like, I almost called him up and told him myself.
	But my aunt and my niece were like, basically like, it's like in the movies when it's like, oh, hold me back.
	Hold them.
	No, but like they were like really not wanting me to tell.
	And I felt for my niece because my niece was really, she was really caught in between all of this because her parents were, because her dad knew something was going on and was like hounding my niece about it and being really sorry.
	I'm just a little lost in the family tree here.
	So this is the daughter of, no, wait, who's Denise in this?
	Denise is my sister's daughter, my niece.
	So it was her parents who were potentially letting us.
	Okay, so this, so even the kid knew?
	And she's she's grown college age, you know, so she's not knew.
	Even the kid knew, except not her brother.
	The brother didn't know anything.
	Oh, no, it's all the women keeping this.
	It's all female.
	Yeah, it's all female.
	Yeah, that was so sick.
	Oh, that's so vile.
	Like, honestly, I've got hairs going up on my forearm how vile that is to keep all the men in the dark and for all of the women chatter boxes to be not you, but you know, the gossipers and oh, did you hear?
	And don't tell.
	And, oh, that's so vile because at social gatherings, he's going to be like, well, there's something's odd.
	Like, because, you know, men have their instincts too, right?
	And in social gatherings, he's not going to know why everyone's given him the side eye from time to time.
	And he's not going to know, because it's going to change every relationship that he's part of.
	And everyone's going to know.
	And then what happens is this is not just his marriage that is being detonated.
	It's his entire social circle.
	Because he's going to find out at some point.
	And then he's going to find out that all the women knew and nobody told him and they didn't tell all the men.
	And this is going to be, this is not just his marriage.
	This is his entire social.
	Everybody who was touched by this is that relationship is permanently damaged, if not destroyed.
	And the relationship with his daughter.
	I couldn't believe my sister was doing to that relationship.
	And that's what held me back from just a little bit.
	Sorry, your sister.
	You just kind of have for a sec there.
	Your sister was what with that relationship?
	So, I don't know if we need to come up with fake names or something.
	No, no, I just missed a word.
	I get who everyone is.
	I just missed a word.
	So my sister was putting her daughter in that situation of being really torn between her parents because they were both putting so much pressure on her, you know, to the mom, don't tell.
	The dad, tell me, you know, everything.
	But why tell?
	This is what I don't understand.
	Sorry, say, tongue.
	Sorry, why?
	So for your sister, why tell anyone?
	Just shut up.
	It's a good question.
	Just shut up.
	You know, if you're going to go rob a bank and you feel bad about it, pay the money back.
	I don't know, but shut up.
	Like, why is she?
	What's the dragging everyone into it?
	I don't know.
	I mean, she partly she was just obsessed stuff.
	It was so gross.
	Like, she was acting like a teenager, like smitten, you know, like just in la-la land.
	And so she just wanted to tell everyone because she was just so snappy, you know, and like, right.
	It was so gross.
	But it's putting everybody in this impossible situation.
	It's really, yeah.
	I know.
	Sorry, I don't need to tell you any of this sort of stuff.
	You get it, right?
	But I just, you know, it's a public call.
	So, so, yeah, that is, that is vile because it drags everybody as accomplices.
	It drags everybody as accomplices.
	And as you say, so there's a threat, right?
	Which is, okay, so if there's a woman who broke ranks and just said, look, it's not a secret because she's telling everyone, but you're the guy who deserves to know the most.
	Right.
	And what happens to the woman who does that?
	Billinized.
	I mean, when I suggested that I just call up my brother-in-law and just tell him everything, I mean, the women who, my niece and my aunt, like they, they freaked out.
	They were so scared.
	They were terrified that I was going to do this.
	They were really scared stuff.
	And I bet you they told all their kids that it's really important not to lie.
	Yes.
	By a moral authority.
	Oh, God.
	And for what?
	For some sexting?
	Anyway.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So that's vile.
	And then she said she told him, but you don't believe she told him everything.
	Yeah, I don't think she told him about the sexting.
	I don't think some guy contacted me from my 20s.
	I caught some feelings, but it's fine.
	It's not a big deal.
	It's just a hit.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Did she confess that she had told everyone, including the kid, and swore them to secrecy?
	I doubt it.
	I don't know what exactly what she told him.
	Well, it's a pretty easy way to check.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Oh, so I hear that my sister, oh, gosh, let me tell you what a horrible burden that was.
	So I hear my sister told you that she contacted an ex.
	They were sexting and having phone sex and she swore everyone to secrecy and everyone kept it from you.
	Oh, I'm so relieved that we don't have to keep that secret anymore.
	That's pretty easy to check, right?
	Right.
	I'm long distance with them as well.
	So I, you know, not, I don't talk about that.
	Well, the long distance didn't prevent the phone sex.
	So it can't prevent the honesty either.
	I know.
	I couldn't.
	And it's.
	Yeah.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Well, it's just such a cycle because that was like, you know, a year and a half, two years ago.
	So it's not, let's see, a year and a half ago.
	Anyway, sorry.
	So now there's like more.
	I'm finding out about more lies that she's telling and to her son specifically.
	And I'm in the same, I'm in a very similar situation now where I, my niece told me all this because I have not talked to her, my half sister.
	I have not talked to her in months, in months.
	I'm ghosting her texts and things.
	I just don't want to deal with it.
	Oh, so she's not blocked.
	You just don't respond.
	I just don't respond right now.
	I have like an eight-month-old baby.
	So I'm kind of not been, you know, been in postpartum.
	I haven't been in like a space to like want to deal with her right now.
	So you don't want the confrontation of actual blocking and all that, right?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Got it.
	My niece has recently been telling me about more drama from her mother.
	And, oh, it's so bad.
	So she basically lied to her son, like straight up lied.
	And everybody knows that it's the lie.
	Like everybody's, it's the same thing.
	Everybody's keeping her secret and playing her game and knows that she's lying to her son about this thing.
	And all the women and even, you know, her husband, like no one's, no one's saying anything.
	Everyone's keeping her secret.
	And I told my niece, I was like, oh, my conscience is really acting up right now.
	Like, I'm thinking about calling him and just telling him, but again, it would put her, she's the one who told me, and you know, she confided in me.
	And sorry, so when people say, when people say, I want to confide in you, do you know, I mean, my particular response is, nope, don't tell me, don't tell, do not ask me to keep secrets.
	Don't do it.
	I, maybe this is a male, female.
	I can never remember who I'm allowed to tell and who I'm not allowed to tell.
	I can never remember that.
	Like, I can remember a lot of things.
	I just, I can't, and I've always like, I've always had a policy of like, don't, don't, don't do it.
	Don't give me secrets.
	I will not do it.
	I will not do it.
	But, okay, so, so, or did she say, I told you all of this, and then afterwards say, I need you to keep this in confidence.
	I mean, she never actually said beforehand that it was that I shouldn't tell, or she never asked for any kind of promise that I wouldn't tell, but it was pretty implicit as she was, you know, it was just, I understood that I wasn't supposed to tell.
	But then I called her back later that day, and I was like, My conscience, I can't do this.
	My conscience, my conscience apparently sets me apart from every other female in the bloodline.
	Okay, yeah, I was like, I'm going to tell him.
	And she's like, ooh, but it wasn't, it's not, you don't have to tell me the actual content, but it's not like who you think your father is is not your father.
	It wasn't anything quite that bad, right?
	No, nothing like that.
	It wasn't like that.
	Okay.
	It was a, I can tell you, I can try to tell you in a nutshell if you wish, but sure, I'm always curious.
	Well, he joined a fraternity and they were like, no, there's not, of course, there's going to be no hazing at all.
	And of course, there was hazing and he's complaining to his parents about it.
	And I guess one of the boys who was getting hazed, like, got some kind of injury.
	I kind of not understanding.
	He like got a backache and had to go to the emergency room, which my thought is like could have just taken some ibuprofen or something.
	Like, I don't know.
	But he got injured somehow, and the moms were like freaking out.
	My sister ended up writing a letter to the president of the college, and the frat got suspended or got like put on some kind of probation or something.
	And my nephew calls her, calls his mom.
	He's like, you know, mom, did you do this?
	She said, no, of course not.
	No, I did not do it.
	I didn't do it.
	And then he calls her back and he's like, listen, do you swear to God, mom?
	Do you swear to God you didn't?
	And she's Christian.
	I don't know how she's Christian still, but she is.
	This is what she claims.
	You swear to God you didn't tell.
	And she's like, oh, I swear to God.
	And he's like, okay, I trust you.
	I believe you.
	And didn't he ever find out about the cheating or was this a different timeline?
	So he did eventually when his dad did.
	But again, I don't, he got like almost none of the story I'm expecting.
	He got very little.
	And of course, oh, this is so bad.
	Okay.
	So a few months after his mom cheated, his girlfriend cheated on him.
	And he.
	Well, and that's not entirely coincidental, I would assume, but probably quite deep psychology transmission.
	But anyway, sorry, go ahead.
	Well, the mom and his girlfriend were very close.
	She loved her and just wouldn't stop talking about the girlfriend.
	And like they were did like workout classes together and stuff like that.
	And so when this happened, the mom was convincing him to take her back, take the girlfriend back after the cheating happened.
	And my nephew listened to his mom.
	You know, he's she still had that weight, you know, that credibility with him because, and my niece, bless her heart, she was like, Well, he's been a little slow on this kind of stuff.
	And I'm like, No, he's not slow.
	Sorry, he's been a little slow on what kind of stuff.
	So, I guess it was just very recently he like said to said to her, Do you really think our dad is kind of annoying?
	Because I guess the dad, which this Paula, this conversation this week was with my niece, was just a lot of revelations.
	I found out that the dad spanked them when they were kids.
	I had no idea stuff, and like it was really devastating to find this out.
	And I don't want to make it all about me because obviously it's them who were abused.
	Because I knew I found out somewhat recently, like within the last five years, that he was a yellow, like a major yeller.
	And he and my sister, too, like, I'm just finding out all this stuff about them that I did not know.
	Um, so anyway, the nephew like brings up, don't you think, do you think our dad's kind of you know an asshole kind of basically?
	Like, kind of out of the blue.
	And like, I think mom is selfish.
	Like, he's just been saying this stuff to my, to his sister, you know, for the first time ever.
	Um, and they're again, they're college age, so they're um, so that's what she was talking about, him being like quote unquote slow on putting this together that they weren't good people.
	But just really made me angry because it's like, no, he's not slow, he trusts people, people are not telling him anything.
	Anyway, including me, I'm guilty of that as well.
	Like, I wasn't telling him either.
	That's uh, that's very rough.
	Okay, so tell me a little bit about the friend with the autism.
	Shifting gears, okay.
	Um, so we we've been long, you know, it's long distance friends, um, and we have met in person before.
	Um, she, I'm so sorry, I'm not sure where to start.
	Um, do you want to sum the examples that she was giving me of, so I'm like, Well, what does it look like, you know, being on the spectrum?
	Because I guess it's it's technically like Asperger's, but she doesn't like that label for some reason.
	Um, so one of the examples she gave was they're they're Catholic and they go to church, and he doesn't understand, supposedly doesn't understand the cues for like when to stand, when to sit, and like he will just like lie down on the pews and like go to sleep or something.
	And how old is he?
	I think he's like 10.
	Hmm, it's a bit old for that, but okay, go ahead, right?
	Well, for me, like, I'm really curious.
	I'm like, does he not understand, or is he just not like, you know, give a shit?
	Like, does he just not care?
	Like, because I can see my boys not wanting, you know, we wouldn't, we haven't done that kind of thing with them.
	Um, I think we went to like a tried to go to a symphony concert, and they were like, oh, heck no, so about that.
	So it's kind of like, I don't know if it's just that he really doesn't understand or if he just doesn't care.
	Yeah.
	I remember my wife signed us up once to go when my daughter was quite young, signed us up once to go to listen to a reading by professional actors of a Christmas carol, which was actually quite a lot of fun.
	My daughter was quite bored.
	And unfortunately, I'm not proud of this decision.
	You know, I don't always make the right decisions.
	But I tried to alleviate her boredom by stuffing an entire orange into my mouth.
	And she was no longer bored, but she was laughing at all the wrong points.
	And I think I did earn a couple of looks, which was, you know, fair and in hindsight, it's still a great memory.
	No, no, just in case my wife ever listens to this.
	No, I was totally wrong.
	No, I'm just kidding.
	She was fine, but it was just kind of funny.
	So, yeah, sometimes it's not the age-appropriate stuff.
	All right, go ahead.
	Right.
	Another example she gave was like that he destroys her furniture or something.
	Like, I think there was a coffee table that he was like peeking at.
	I don't, again, I don't know all the details, but boys destroying furniture seems like pretty par for the course.
	Like, that seems pretty normal for boys.
	Like, we buy all our furniture at IKEA so that.
	Oh, yeah.
	Yeah, rounded edges and easily replaced.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	We're not too precious about the bird.
	Because, yes, like they destroyed it, you know?
	We're like, please don't put stickers on the, okay, there's more stickers.
	All right.
	Well, a few more is not going to hurt.
	I mean, whatever you mean.
	Another example she gave was that he pokes his sister a lot and like sort of, it sounds like needling behavior, like he's trying to get a rise out of her.
	Yeah, aka a boy.
	Yeah.
	A boy.
	Yeah.
	I mean, that sounds like really typical boy behavior.
	And I was trying to think of other examples.
	Those are the most, those are the three big ones that I remember for telling me.
	Is his father in his life?
	Okay.
	And is he close to his father?
	Do you know?
	I don't, I don't really know.
	I think so.
	I think he is.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So she's gone to get him assessed, and this is the assessment that's come back.
	Is that right?
	Yes, apparently.
	And they did all the other kinds of, he might have like a sensory processing thing, which I don't entirely know what that means, but often has to do with overstimulation, like they get easily overstimulated.
	Right, right.
	Overstimulated.
	He's really smart.
	He was scoring really smart, but like slow with processing.
	So just doesn't get things as quickly, but he gets them very deeply.
	Suppose, you know, that's, that's what the assessment was saying.
	And also on this, on the Asperger's spectrum or something like that.
	So.
	And have you ever spent time?
	Oh, because it's long distance, but have you met up much?
	No, we were pregnant together.
	So I've never met the son.
	I've never actually met him in my life.
	Okay.
	And do you video call with, have you ever video called with her?
	Do you like she just out of curiosity?
	I mean, have you ever seen him on a video call?
	Or, you know, because if there's a question about, you know, you could just say, oh, you know, listen, I'd love to get a sense of it myself.
	I'm sure you're right.
	But could you bring him on a video call?
	I could try to get engaged.
	Because by 10, he should be able to hold a conversation, right?
	So you could sort of see not to evaluate because what do we know, right?
	But just to sort of get a sense of that.
	I haven't.
	I saw him on a video call when he was quite little, but not in a, we kind of moved to just audio as we got, as our kids, as we got older, our kids got cold.
	Okay, so you've never met him and you've never interacted with him since he was very little, right?
	Okay.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So you had some questions as to whether this really is.
	But of course, I mean, girl code, right?
	You can't be blunt and say, well, listen, I'm concerned that you're blowing this out of proportion.
	Because she even told me, she was saying how nice it was to, like, it felt really good for her to get that diagnosis, that she felt validated and like seen and she's getting all this support now.
	And like, that felt really good for her.
	She actually told me this, you know, that that was good for her.
	Him having a good idea.
	And to be fair, if he is neurodivergent, that is a relief because then you don't sit there and say, is there something I'm doing with regards to my parenting?
	So if he does have something different about the way his brain works, then having that recognized and getting the support that could help, I could understand that being a big positive, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, that's true.
	That's true.
	So, but you have some concern that it's not outrageous behavior.
	It just, but then it's tough too.
	And I sympathize with sort of both sides because at the same time, you've never met him, right?
	So you don't know what he's like on a daily basis.
	You hear the reports and so on, right?
	So that is a tough situation because it's not like, well, he's just curled in a fetal position sucking his thumb and he's 10 years old and won't talk to anyone, right?
	That would be a clear indication of not normal boy behavior, but this could be any variety of things.
	And, you know, it'd be nice if there was a brain scan for these things, right?
	And I don't really think that there is.
	So it's more a description of behavior.
	And that's, and then, of course, the other challenge is that if it is within the bell curve of normal behavior, right?
	Because boys and girls, right?
	I mean, there's a bell curve of behavior, right?
	Some boys are more sedate.
	They're much more to the left side of the bell curve of like hyperactivity or activity.
	And then some are much more on the right-hand side.
	And so where does it become a brain issue?
	I don't know.
	I mean, nobody does.
	There's no exact measure for these things.
	So might he just be eccentric, right?
	Might he just be a non-conformist?
	Might he just be somebody who takes his own inner cues as much more important than social cues?
	There are people like that, and they're not brain damaged.
	You roll the dice, right, with regards to the big five personality traits.
	And so it's tough.
	I mean, and then, of course, the problem is that let's say that he's not neurodivergent.
	I mean, we're all neurodivergent, right?
	Everybody's different from each other, right?
	But if he's not neurodivergent, but he gets the label and then he gets the self-identification and his mother gets invested in the diagnosis, does it become something that he can't outgrow?
	Because it's just who he is.
	And yeah, I mean, they're very complicated questions.
	I certainly get that.
	Well, and as she was telling me about a lot of these things, I could, I mean, it sounds like my boys, you know, I didn't, it was making me feel insecure that like, oh, maybe my boys have some kind of issue.
	Like, do we need to get assessed?
	You know, I mean, just on a low level, that was happening.
	Like, it was making me feel insecure.
	Because I guess he also has, her son has some things around swimming and biking, like when he had a swim was really hard for him.
	And like has been for my boys too.
	Like they, they don't like it.
	Like it's, it's really, we're still, you know, working on that.
	And the same thing with bikes.
	Like they just don't, my kids don't want to ride the bike.
	Like, you got to learn balance, kids.
	But they don't really want to.
	And I guess she had that same issue with her boy.
	And I just don't want to, I don't want to pathologize that, you know, and right.
	So there's unease either way, right?
	So if she's right, then you feel uneasy about your kids.
	If you're right, then she's going to feel uneasy about herself.
	And because you can't sort of be direct and honest.
	And also because you're dealing with, like, if she said, my son has diabetes, right?
	Well, you can measure that, right?
	There's insulin or whatever it is.
	I don't know.
	I'm not a doctor, but I assume that there's ways that you objectively measure diabetes so you know how much insulin to provide and stuff like that.
	So if her kid had an issue that was objective and not just a description of behavior, then that would be one thing.
	You wouldn't say, well, if she said, listen, the test came back, he's got diabetes, you wouldn't say, I don't think so, right?
	Because there would be tests, right?
	There would be tests.
	And especially if it was like the genetic diabetes and not the lifestyle diabetes.
	So the fact is that you've got a description of behavior diagnosis, which is fuzzy.
	as heck.
	I mean, obviously, except at the extremes, right?
	I mean, but that is not an objective test as far as I can tell or know.
	Again, you know, the non-verbal autistics, I mean, that there's obviously something that's very significant there.
	But is this just boy rangungiousness?
	And is this the pathologization of masculinity?
	Or is there something really there that needs to be dealt with and addressed?
	And of course, all of the financial motives are all kinds of weird because, you know, there's a whole industry designed for this kind of stuff, which has a huge incentive to diagnose.
	And it does relieve parents' anxiety to have a label, right?
	Whereas it used to be called eccentric.
	Maybe now it's Asperger's or Autistic or something like that.
	And it's complicated stuff.
	And it doesn't sound like it's a very clear-cut case, in which case, are you doing more harm by giving it a label or not?
	I don't know.
	I mean, if the label gets some resources that really help him, then it's a plus, right?
	If she's labeling or the experts are labeling and pathologizing behavior that's off the bell curve, but not on the spectrum, then that's not probably very good because then he's like, oh, I have Asperger's, I have autism, and so on.
	And I say this, of course, having, I have a particular view of things like Asperger's and autism, because when I was growing up, I mean, they really, that sort of stuff just wasn't around at all.
	And I've read, obviously, a bunch of books on this kind of stuff because I've done interviews with people.
	And so when I look at that kind of stuff, I look at it as the fairly extreme cases.
	Like I've had people on my show, we've had long conversations about complicated topics, and then they tell me that they're on the spectrum at the end.
	I'm like, really?
	Because if you have to tell me, then maybe, you know, it's just something I can't, oh, well, I have trouble processing my emotions.
	It's like, well, welcome to life, man.
	I mean, welcome to life.
	We all have trouble processing our emotions, not because the emotions are so difficult, but because you get heavily penalized for being honest about your emotions.
	Like, I have doubts about your kid being on the spectrum.
	Hey, look, I'm being honest.
	Oh, welcome to the punishment.
	I think you should tell your husband about this long-distance sexual affair.
	I can't believe the things we have to say in the modern world.
	This long-distance sexual affair, it sounds like the stretch with a penis.
	But I think you should be honest.
	And it's like, oh, no, so you get punished a lot.
	Well, of course, I mean, I got deplatformed for being honest about things.
	So it's not that our emotions are so difficult.
	It's just that they're heavily scrutinized and punished if they don't serve the interests of people in power.
	And I mean this in a familial as well as a political or cultural sense.
	So yeah, it's hard to know because it's a big, big old fuzzy line.
	And I would generally myself, it's easy for me to say, right?
	But I would generally err on the side of not labeling, but simply being curious about how the development goes.
	But, you know, if her kid is, you know, standing up and screaming the lyrics to We're Not Going to Take It in church, then that's pretty embarrassing as a parent, unless you can say to everyone, oh no, but he's autistic or he's on the spectrum.
	And then people are like, oh, it goes from judgment to sympathy, right?
	And that's quite an ambrosia for people.
	And, you know, maybe it's justified.
	I don't know.
	Sorry, long speech, but it's supposed to be about you.
	But yeah, I mean, those are interesting conversations.
	But of course, if she's getting a huge amount of comfort and relief out of this diagnosis, then she, of course, is going to be kind of hostile if you question it.
	And she was very polite about it.
	She wasn't, you know, she didn't yell at me or anything.
	She's just like, it seems like you're implying that it's just typical boy behavior and not, you know, autism.
	And is that what you're saying?
	That kind of thing.
	Because I was just asking questions.
	I wasn't telling her like anything.
	I was just like, oh, really?
	Just asking questions.
	Because the level of honesty should be all the stuff you're describing is stuff my boys do.
	So it's making me anxious.
	Right?
	And right, that's the real-time relationships thing.
	It's like, I'm not blaming you for it, but like every single thing that you're saying makes your kid autistic is stuff that my boys do as well.
	So I'm kind of freaking out a little here.
	It's not your fault or anything.
	And then that would be also like she would say, the idea that he's not autistic and it's just like, if your kids do what my son does, then either if it's, let's say it's exactly the same, then either your kids are autistic or my kid isn't.
	That's sort of a logical thing.
	And so that's going to provoke significant anxiety.
	Both of you, like if her kid was like, again, sort of curled up and wouldn't talk to anyone and it took him, it took her an hour to brush his teeth because he fought her like a mountain lion.
	You'd say, well, my kids don't do that.
	So, you know, massive sympathies.
	I think we'd all have great sympathy for that situation.
	But if her son is doing what your kids do and she's saying, I'm so relieved he's been diagnosed as neurodivergent.
	Oh, yeah, that's a, I mean, was she aware of that?
	Like, did you say, well, this is this is stuff of my kids sold to?
	I mean, eventually I did.
	I was like, well, you know, my kids do a lot of these same things you're describing.
	And she's like, well, you know, maybe you should get them tested and checked out kind of thing.
	And yeah, that's tricky.
	That's tricky.
	Yeah, I don't want to get tested and checked out.
	I mean, we're not, and we're not there yet.
	Like, I don't think that the behaviors are like extreme.
	And I think it's pretty typical boy stuff.
	Well, they're extreme from a female standpoint, but not from a boy standpoint.
	Right.
	Well, and we're, you know, we're peaceful parents.
	We negotiate.
	Yeah, when I, when I was out swinging from giant ropes under a trestle bridge over rocks, there were no girls there.
	When I was out and we bedare each other to go across a quarter mile bridge, the trains came along.
	There were no girls there.
	Like, I mean, and I mean, I may have been a bit of a thrill junkie for, you know, not the healthiest reasons, but there were tons of, like, when we decided to take our bikes out, pick up some dented cans of beans and build a fire in the woods to cook, there were no girls there, like none.
	And when I played Dunchester Dragons with my friends, as a teenager, there were no girls there.
	So I have been, I may have been a bit more on the extreme masculinity side, but that would have been, I mean, if girls had wanted to come, we'd have looked at them like they were insane.
	Like, what?
	No, you're sugar and spice and all things nice with a snips and snails and puppy dogs' tails.
	So I never, and when I started dating, I never invited dates to do any of these extreme stuff.
	So yeah, there's definitely going to be differences.
	And the delightful incomprehensibility of each opposite sex is part of the spice of life.
	But yeah, I mean, if your boys are doing what she has diagnosed her or has had her son diagnosed for as a neurodivergent situation, I mean, what are you going to do?
	Because either you should get them assessed or she shouldn't.
	So I don't know how to navigate that.
	Honestly, I wouldn't have any idea how to navigate that.
	I personally, and, you know, I mean, it sounds like, of course, that you accept that your boys are just boys and they're going to be chaos merchants until about eight minutes after they're dead.
	But it sounds like that is just a situation where I don't know how the friendship can sustain because everything she talks about with regards to her son, which I assume is a fairly constant topic, is going to continually cause stress and anxiety for you.
	Like, how can you?
	And you can't really support her because you don't agree with her.
	You know, like I had a friend who he had intestinal disorder.
	Sorry, I know this is kind of a deal, but I had a friend who had an intestinal disorder and he took a bunch of medication and he was gaining weight.
	And he said, it's the medication that's causing me to gain weight.
	However, you know, when we would go out to eat, he would order like veal parmigiana, which is, you know, an easy 2,000 calories, right?
	And I do remember saying to him, I said, do you think it's the odd combination of your medicine plus the 2,000 calorie dinner that's causing you to gain weight?
	Or do you think it's just the medication?
	In other words, if you didn't eat veal parmigiana for dinner every time we went out, do you think that it might affect your, because it's just physics, right?
	I mean, weight gain and loss.
	I get that, you know, there's medication and so on, and it might have an effect, but you still have to put the food in your body.
	The medication doesn't magically create calories out of thin air, right?
	So, you know, he was like blaming the medication, and I was like, no, I like help me, help me understand the physics of this because the medication can't convert air to fat, right?
	Or sugar or something.
	Like you have to actually put it in your body.
	And, you know, maybe it gives you more of a taste for it, or maybe you're kind of depressed and you're overeating because of that, which, you know, I sympathize with all of that, but you can't just say it's a medication.
	And boy, you know, you hit those hardened topics in people, and it's just, there's no negotiation.
	There's no like, oh, you know, that is a point or blah, blah, blah, right?
	Because they just say, oh, the medication will cause weight gain.
	It's like, I don't think that's possible physically.
	But anyway, so when you hit those hardened topics in people, it can be kind of tough.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So how long have you guys lived in your current location?
	Let's see.
	Close to 10 years.
	We're working on 10 years here.
	Ah, okay.
	And what has been socializing for you?
	Because you've talked about family and you've talked about your friend, which is, this is what I've asked about.
	So obviously that's on me.
	But what about how has it been for the last decade locally?
	Locally.
	So when I first moved here, it was a bit tough to break into the social scene.
	And my husband, just for context, he's very introverted.
	He would be fine with zero friends.
	And my kids are actually.
	Well, he's looking at your example and he's like, I don't know, man.
	It seems like a lot of work to me.
	Right, sure, sure.
	And honestly, my kids are pretty introverted too.
	Like my eldest son, you know, I keep asking him if he wants to go like to certain library events or meet up with certain friends.
	He has like, we have like two friends that we, we, he has like play dates like a couple times a month, like once or twice a month.
	And like, that is enough for him.
	And like, of course, he has his brother that he, like, they're best friends.
	Brother?
	In the plural?
	Yeah, brothers, but the youngest, youngest one's only eight months.
	Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry, my bad.
	My bad.
	You even said that too.
	And I just okay.
	Sorry, as the youngest sibling, I like to be included.
	Sorry, my bad.
	Just my own historical tick.
	Please keep going.
	No, he and he honestly at eight-month-old, like they're playing now too.
	He's very playful at this state.
	It's so beautiful stuff.
	Oh, like his personality is starting to like bloom, you know, like you're kind of seeing.
	It's it's amazing.
	And the older kids, the older boys, it's been amazing to see them with the baby because it brings out this like soft side of them, you know, because they're rough and tumble books.
	They love to wrestle with dad and each other.
	And then they're around the baby and they're so gentle and they talk in little sweet, dulcet voices to him.
	It's really sweet.
	So anyway, so yes, the younger baby.
	Well, they need the baby to trust them so they can take advantage of him later.
	No, I'm just kidding.
	I'm just kidding.
	Sorry, just my own projection again.
	But no, that is a lovely thing to see.
	And seeing personalities emerge from babies, like watching an entire city rise out of the ocean.
	It's incredible.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	So, so yes.
	So they have the boys all have each other, you know, and like that's, I mean, that's a lot of socializing every day, you know, and with just with each other.
	So it's really like me who wants the more socializing in the family.
	Yeah, because they have a buffet of socializing at home.
	And then you're like, after they've just stuffed themselves on the buffet, they're like, hey, do you want to go out for dinner at an unknown restaurant?
	It's like, no, I'm good.
	Yeah, I can, I can get that.
	So, so for me, with my experience with making friends here, you know, at first it was, it was hard, but then as soon as I became a mom, it became a lot easier to meet people.
	And I felt like I had a pretty good group.
	I'm an atheist, but I did join the church, the mom's Bible group, you know, Bible study group.
	And at the time, like when my oldest was baby, that was, I really liked that group.
	It was a good group of girls.
	Sorry to interrupt.
	This was for mom's Bible study.
	So it wasn't like a kids get together, but it was for moms to study the Bible.
	But I assume that would they bring the kids or how did the kids fit into that if they didn't?
	Yeah, so the kids, the kids would go into like the daycare for like an hour, yeah, or two.
	So they would socialize with the kids, the other kids, and then the moms would socialize and like talk and you know, do a little Bible study.
	And it was a good group for a while, but then the pandemic, right?
	And it so like my the four girls, five actually that I was closest with in that group, like all moved.
	Moved away.
	They moved because of the pandemic.
	Oh, interesting.
	Okay.
	Well, it wasn't just the pandemic.
	It was like different reasons.
	Each one had like a different reason, but it sort of seemed like it was because of the pandemic because it was this timing-wise.
	But like one, her husband really wanted to move back to where they were from.
	Another galaxy.
	Oh, yeah, because if they're there, sorry to interrupt, but I mean, if they can't get any socializing because of the pandemic, then they need to move closer to family, I assume.
	Right.
	Actually, that one was before the pandemic.
	Now I think of it.
	And that's that's the other relationship I actually do want to pick your brain on because she, that couple has just has gotten divorced now.
	And anyway, another okay, so that sort of splintered apart over the pandemic.
	And then, of course, you know, making friends during the pandemic was not the easiest task in the world.
	Yes.
	So post-pandemic, I got hooked up with this like homeschooling mom's group, and they were all extremely crunchy, like really crunchy, like competitively crunchy with each other.
	And it was, it was not like who could eat the least, the fewest animals and Who has the biggest Mexican weave and who's done the most ayahuasca?
	No, I'm just kidding, right?
	But but like serious granola heads, right?
	Yes, yeah.
	And like, I'm like the mom who like, I brought goldfish as the snack, and um I got you know, they were like, Oh, okay, we our kids can't eat that, but thank you.
	That's so nice of you.
	Um, okay.
	Ah, the tight-lipped female smile.
	Yes, I get it.
	I'm gonna communicate the exact opposite of my voice tone.
	Yeah, I brought muffins like homemade muffins, and they're just like, Oh, does that have dairy in it and gluten and eggs?
	I'm like, Yes, all three of those things are in there.
	Oh, and sugar.
	Sorry, we can't eat that.
	Okay, you poisoner.
	No, I'm just kidding.
	Okay, um, yeah, so they were, um, yes, I, that group felt really toxic to me.
	And the other thing about these groups is that, so that group, there was a single mom who sort of infiltrated the group and kind of made it like ickier.
	Like, she was the most judgmental of them all.
	And she was sort of like the most aggressive, too.
	And like, I remember them all having this conversation about one of the moms and kids who weren't there.
	She's like, well, you know, they're, they're sick again.
	They just get sick so much.
	And, well, you know, they eat a lot of bread.
	So that's probably why they're sick all the time.
	Just like, what?
	You really should be an actress.
	It's very, it's very vivid.
	Your characterizations are very vivid.
	It's very good.
	Right, right.
	Thank you.
	No, but it was like really like, oh, yeah.
	So the single mom infiltrated that group and made it like gross.
	And then I tried to.
	I'm sorry.
	So let's just pause on that for a sec, if that's all right.
	So I mean, in general, I would say up at least until, I don't know, some unspecified time in the past.
	For me, it was like, hey, this is a cool group.
	And, oh, that's really nice.
	And then, but the weird thing is, is that they have no immune system for toxic people.
	So it's, it's fine until some toxic person comes along and then they seem to be completely blinded to the toxic person.
	Toxic person ends up running the show and you got to go.
	And it's a weird thing to me because if you're good, then you should be able to identify and keep out the bad.
	I mean, it's funny because these guys are all like, ah, no gluten, no sugar, no bread, because that's toxic.
	And it's like that a toxic person comes into the actual environment.
	They have no idea.
	And it's like, I think it's a little more important to figure out toxic people than freaking gluten sensitivities.
	But they don't, right?
	And it's a wild thing to me that groups, and this is not just female groups, but yeah, these groups, they get together, they have these standards, the virtues and values.
	And when toxic people come along, they're just like, oh, bring them in.
	And, you know, the whole thing.
	And it's like, but, but why?
	Why would you do that?
	Why don't you identify the toxic?
	I mean, I remember this from sort of the early days of Free Domain that, you know, we had a message board and a chat group and all of that.
	And yeah, toxic people would come in and I would take decisive action.
	And then everybody would freak out.
	Like, oh, I'm sorry if we have an immune system in our society because I can identify the toxic people and work to get them out.
	And then, you know, the toxic people would come back in and say, hey, whatever happened to this guy?
	He was great, you know?
	Or I got kicked out of that community just for asking some simple questions.
	And it was wild to me that even in a moral, philosophical, objective conversation, people wouldn't have the first clue about how to identify and keep out the toxic people, like the dark triad personality types.
	And it's wild to me because it's been a whole series of these things over the course of my life.
	Is like, hey, this is a cool group.
	And then some toxic person moves in and you say, Hey, this person is toxic.
	We should probably not have them in the group.
	And everyone's like, How dare you to be so exclusive?
	And it's like, okay, well, I can't even watch what's going to happen next.
	Like, I just can't.
	I've got to fast forward through this part of American Psycho.
	But that has been a sort of consistent thing that I've seen that somehow, somehow, in the modern world, I think it's the modern world because as you pointed out in the 60s, people were like, Divorcees, nope.
	And there was a good reason for that because divorcees break up marriages because they spread their resentment.
	And I've sort of talked about this in the show and even wrote about it in my novel The Future, which is the main guy in the past, when his wife's friend is getting divorced, he's like, Cut her off, cut her off, she's going to spread toxicity.
	She's going to do it.
	She can't even help it at this point.
	Because if you're going through a divorce, you can't be around a happy marriage without feeling resentment.
	And the instinct is going to be to destabilize it, to misery love's company.
	So we used to have all these sayings about toxicity.
	We used to have all these social standards.
	And now, you know, if you've got a bunch of happily married women and a single mom comes in and they think this is going to be just fine, they're wrong.
	Because either she chose the wrong man, in which case she's got really bad ethics and decision-making capacities, which is going to show up in the group, or she chose a good guy who mysteriously chose her maybe because she was faking being better than she was or nicer than she was.
	She chose a good guy and drove him away, in which case she's also toxic and dysfunctional.
	So these used to be just basic markers, you know, like if someone comes in with face tattoos, they'd be like, I don't know if this is going to fit.
	And right.
	But and so this complete inability, it's a weird thing in the modern world, this complete inability to identify dysfunctional behavior and work to keep it out is wild.
	I mean, even Costco would keep you out unless you buy a membership.
	So Costco can figure this stuff out.
	But actual friend groups, they're fine until some dysfunctional person comes along and then they just get folded and mutilated.
	Like they just get destroyed as a whole.
	And it doesn't really matter for the most part what you say because they'll just turn on you.
	Like if you say, oh, this person's dysfunctional, I don't think it's a good addition to the group.
	They'll be like, oh, how dare you?
	She's struggling.
	She's this, she's whatever, right?
	And it's like, okay, I'm not sticking around to watch what's next because it's as predictable as sunrise.
	But sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah.
	So I'm having the feels because I've been there with that.
	It's just, because that was the other thing.
	I rejoined after I got away from this crunchy group.
	We actually still are in contact with one of the moms.
	One of the moms was cool and her kids.
	And so we still see them from, you know, have play dates every once in a while.
	But I rejoined the church I was a part of.
	I mean, we didn't go to church, but we went to the mom's group.
	And there was like two girls from back when I went pre-pandemic that were still there.
	One of them is like leading the group now.
	And I was like, okay, she homeschools.
	She's Christian, like same values.
	Like we probably have a lot in common.
	And she actually turns out she's like, she has four kids, but she's like a terrible mother.
	Like, she's really bad.
	In terms of her parenting choices, and like she has like a major temper kind of thing.
	That's the big, biggest.
	And she's just annoyed with her kids all the time.
	And that's part of the right reason she does the mom's group is that she just has to get away from them, you know, or something.
	Okay.
	And then the other thing that has infiltrated the church is all the crunchy people.
	Like it's all crunchy.
	And like, I went there and it was like half the moms were all just complaining about their husbands, like really vicious stuff, too.
	And also, my kids hated the daycare too.
	They're like, oh, we hate it here.
	I'm like, okay, we're not going back.
	Oh, yeah.
	And you cannot be around people, at least for me.
	I don't want to say fair, but I can't be around people who preach about their husbands or their wives.
	I just, it's such an abdication of personal responsibility.
	Like, this is, it's like somebody who's like, yeah, I got to test drive this car for a couple of years.
	I ended up buying the car.
	Now I hate the car.
	It's like, do you think you're insulting anyone but yourself?
	Like, nobody made you do that.
	And sorry, an analogy just popped into my head.
	I'll just discharge it so I can customer on the combo again.
	That being in these groups, it's like being at a hiking group and you're out hiking.
	Ah, beautiful day, fresh air, you know, beautiful scenery and all of that.
	And then you notice like there's this really hungry mountain lion that wants to join, that wants to, it's advancing slowly on the group with the kids.
	And you're like, oh, guys, guys.
	Okay, guys, freeze, freeze.
	Holy crap.
	Hungry mountain lion, deadly predator.
	And they're all like, yeah, kitty, kitty kids.
	Like, I can't watch what comes next.
	I can't watch what comes next with the hey, go pet the kitty kids.
	All right.
	Look at that lovely pit bull.
	Let's go ride it.
	So, yeah, when people are just completely blind to the dangers of seriously dangerous personality or toxic personalities, and they're like, yeah, bring them in.
	It'll be fine.
	It's like, nope, peace out.
	I can't watch what comes next because it's not going to be pretty.
	So, okay, so you've tried the friend.
	And the other thing, too, sorry, I also wanted to mention that if this woman is, you said, has got really ill-temper.
	And if you were to say to her, listen, as one concerned moralist to another, one of the seven deadly sins is anger.
	And you do seem to be quite angry quite a lot.
	Maybe you have good reason, but it's still, it's probably a bit of a deviation from the ideal, right?
	I mean, you could say it gently or whatever, but when people have these moral ideals and what they're doing is clearly contradicting those moral ideals.
	God help you if you point it out, right?
	God help you.
	You don't understand.
	And then, you know, if somebody starts getting really angry with me when I point this out, I'd say, so here's an example in real time, right?
	I'm bringing something up out of concern for your well-being.
	And, you know, maybe I'm sent by Jesus.
	Maybe.
	But anger is a sin.
	And now you're getting angry at me for pointing out that anger is a sin.
	So what to me is always a relationship breaker is if somebody has an ideal and I point out that they're deviating from that ideal, which we all need.
	We all need that.
	And I get that from people in my life because, you know, we all have these ideals and we all fall short to some degree or another.
	And you just have to be good enough.
	You don't have to be perfect in order to have a good conscience.
	Otherwise, your conscience is just this, you know, toilet-trained gunpoint tyrant that's not particularly healthy either.
	But so if somebody, if I did something irrational and somebody says, and this happens on social media, I do something irrational.
	Somebody says, you know, that's not particularly rational.
	And your ideal is rationality.
	I mean, in general, I'll say, like, I'm accountable for that.
	If somebody says there's a gap between what you hold as your ideal and how you're behaving, I will submit myself, not to that person, but to the ideal.
	So when you're in a situation, let's say it's a Christian situation or religious situation, and somebody is ill-tempered, then if they are truly religious, then if you say, I sort of noticed that she's kind of ill-tempered, and as far as I understand it, it's one of the seven deadly sins.
	And, you know, maybe there's a good reason for it, but I'm concerned.
	And, you know, I'd certainly love to hear your side of things.
	But, right, you're helping them.
	Like if you're a dermatologist and somebody has some weird two-headed mole growing on their back, then you'd say, oh, you know, I kind of notice you've got this really funny looking mole with three eyeballs.
	I would I can't diagnose you because I'm, you know, you're not my, I'm not your doctor, but I would really recommend you go and get that checked out.
	I mean, how many people would turn on a dermatologist like that and say, you jerkwood, you know, how dare you, right?
	I mean, it would be have to be kind of crazy and or suicidal.
	Like, if somebody notices something about you that you don't see about yourself, that is a deviation from what you want.
	Like, I guess people don't want giant moles with three eyeballs growing out of their backs.
	You should get that looked at.
	So for me, another breaking point with relationships is if someone has an ideal and you point out that they're deviating from that ideal, the rational response is to say, thank you.
	I mean, if I had some weird mole on my back and some guy who was an expert said, you should go get that checked out.
	And I got it checked out.
	And whether it was something or nothing, I would say, thank you, wouldn't I?
	I'd say thank you.
	Because that person, and particularly when it comes to morals and stuff that's kind of more volatile, I would say thank you.
	You know, if I was doing something irrational or maybe just calling people names who would never, I don't mind calling people names if they've aggressed against me first.
	But let's say somebody was just asking a question and I let loose, I can't imagine, but let's say I let some foul-mouthed tirade on them or something like that, right?
	And someone were to say, whoa, where did that come from?
	He was just asking a question.
	And let's say it was on text or something.
	I look back.
	And I have done this.
	I have misunderstood a question and I have gotten pretty punchy.
	And then somebody says, I don't think he meant it that way.
	I scroll back and I'm like, ooh, you're right.
	Sorry.
	My bad.
	I jumped the gun and I apologize and all of that.
	And so on, right?
	And I've made actual restitution to people about that.
	So the point for me is that if you are deviating from your moral ideal and someone has the guts to point it out to you, that person is a great treasure, particularly if they do it and are not like you hypocrites, you know, like some sort of aggressive, dominant way that's just state of seeking at the expense of the other.
	But if you're deviating from some ideal and somebody takes the time to sit down or point it out, or I mean, that's a very helpful thing.
	It's a very positive thing.
	And you should thank people for that, even if they're wrong.
	Even if someone says, I think you were too aggressive here and here's why.
	And I said, well, they started out by calling me a moron.
	Right.
	So I believe in the principle of self-defense or treat people the best you can when you first meet them after that treat them as they treat you.
	So if somebody starts getting verbally aggressive with me, I have no problem getting verbally aggressive back.
	But I thank you for pointing it out.
	Like even if they're wrong, I appreciate that people will point it out.
	So for me, a breaking point in relationships or community is if you are acting against your values or I believe that you're acting against your values and I've thought about it and talked about it with people.
	And then if I sit you down and say, here's where I think you're deviating from your values, all due respect, you know, this is just a thesis.
	I don't know for sure, but my concern is X, Y, and Z. If they get punchy or weird or distant or, you know, whatever it is, then they're just hypocrites and they have no moral foundation.
	And I can't I can't and then of course what happens is that you get the inevitable blowback.
	So the relationship is kind of toast anyway.
	Either they thank you for taking the time to talk about how they could do better, which we all need, or they get weird and punchy and then they're just going to undermine you or attack you or slander you.
	Like they're just going to because it's a skin suit of morality.
	It's got no actual relationship.
	In fact, it's kind of the opposite of morality.
	It's camouflage.
	They don't want to be good.
	They just want to seem good.
	And, you know, in the same way with the granola group, who's like, no gluten, it's like, okay, what's more dangerous to your kids?
	A bit of sugar or a genuinely toxic and dangerous personality.
	Like you guys are focusing on the sugar stuff, which, you know, whatever is arguable because kids are going to need to learn how to manage sugar over the course of their lives and just denying it to them their whole lives doesn't exactly help them when they are out on their own.
	But let's say the sugar thing is good, but would you say that having a dangerous and toxic and manipulative personality around is more or less dangerous to your children than sugar?
	I mean, if they were to say that no, you know, half a tablespoon of sugar is way more dangerous than having some pathological narcissist in the environment, then they don't have the common sense.
	God gives a goose, right?
	So there's not really much you can do.
	And if they say, well, no, toxic personalities are more dangerous than half a teaspoon of sugar, well, then you say, well, here's where I think this toxic personality is.
	And in the same way that you defend your kids against gluten and what was the three?
	Gluten, sugar, what was the other one?
	Dairy.
	Dairy, yes, thank you.
	Like dairy, which Europeans have actually evolved to survive on.
	But anyway, okay.
	So if that unholy trinity is dangerous, then surely toxic personalities are even more dangerous.
	And you have the single mother coming in.
	You don't even know why she's a single mother.
	You don't know if she made bad decisions.
	You don't know if she's toxic.
	And this is particularly true for Christians because, of course, Christians accept that sin is the default position in the world.
	And if they open their arms to everyone without judgment, they're not Christians, as far as I can tell.
	So, yeah.
	So again, sorry for the long speech, but when there's a gap between ideals and actions and you point out that gap and people get pissy, there's nothing you can do because then they've, then they're sort of, it's like going to a cop who's undercover and saying, you know, I think you're actually a cop.
	He's just going to get really upset and angry with you because he's there pretending to be something he's not.
	And it's the same thing with people who pretend to be moral.
	But, okay, so you had the Christian group that scattered over COVID and then what?
	Right.
	And then, and then I was the crunchy group.
	And we use fluoride.
	So, you know, we're evil.
	And then I tried to join the church group gang, but they were half of them were single moms and the other half were crunchy, really crunchy.
	And so, and my kids didn't like the daycare either.
	They hated it.
	So we were just like, okay, we're not going back.
	Now, was it that they hated the teachers or the environment or the kids, or just a tasty blend of all three?
	I'm trying to remember what.
	I mean, I think it was a tasty blend of all three.
	There's nothing about it that they liked.
	Okay.
	I don't think they liked anything about it.
	And, you know, we're homeschool family.
	They're not used to having to be like separated from me and do what some strange adult is telling, you know, they have to follow orders and stuff like that.
	So we, you know, obedience is not like.
	Yeah, I remember dropping my, when my wife and I went to go and take a fitness class once when my daughter was young and we tried dropping her off, you know, like gyms have this little, it's like a daycare where you can drop your kids off for like 45 minutes while you go and exercise.
	And we talked about it with her and all and she seemed fine with it.
	And then I think we made it about seven or eight minutes into the class when they had to page us because she just wasn't having it.
	And it's like, okay, well, we'll, we'll try later, which we never did.
	But I guess we'll work out at home.
	But yeah, if they're not used to separation from parents, and even if they think they're okay with it and they don't particularly enjoy it, then okay, you have to just go with that.
	But yeah, so I can understand that they may not be super keen on the daycare side of things because they have so much fun at home.
	It's not because it's more fun at the daycare.
	Yes, it's more fun at home.
	Also, we all get sick.
	They all get sick afterwards, too.
	Well, that's another thing, too, which is, you know, we're really not designed to have this level of viruses and bacteria in our lives.
	Because, you know, like the way we evolved was like local people and local environments and so on.
	We didn't get all of the third world viruses shipped in from all over the planet and so on.
	So, yeah, I mean, that constant sickness that comes from having kids in school and daycare is not, ah, it trains the immune system.
	It's like, well, yeah, but you can't overexercise it too, right?
	It was only like once a week.
	And we did try for like a few weeks, like a handful of weeks.
	And of course, we'd go, we'd all get sick.
	It'd be a few weeks before we could try to go back again.
	And then we go and we get sick and be a month before we go back because once it goes through the family, like one person gets it, then the next, then the next.
	We end up being down for the count.
	Oh, yeah.
	No, it's like hearing people be dragged out to be executed.
	And you know, your next, oh no, the dominoes have started and it's all over.
	Actually, I missed the last two that my wife and daughter get.
	So I don't know what's going on with that.
	But yeah, but for sure.
	Yeah.
	One kid starts sneezing and they're like, okay, all right.
	Everybody make up a bed in the living room.
	Here we go.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	So we dropped out of that group.
	And since then, I mean, I kind of gave up for a while, to be honest.
	I was like, well, groups aren't really our thing right now.
	We were like, and also I had a baby.
	So I was postpartum.
	And I get pretty homebody after I have a baby.
	I need a solid like eight months before I can really go out into the world again.
	But now I'm kind of there.
	So I'm kind of like thinking about how to socialize again.
	And none of it looks very appealing at this point, you know?
	Right, right.
	Right.
	And here's the thing, too, is that socializing has, at least for me, a special kind of fun.
	Right.
	So, you know, if my, I've sort of mentioned this on the show the other day.
	My wife and daughter and I are playing, I don't know, Exploding Kittens was the game I mentioned.
	It's fun.
	It's fun.
	But somehow, when you get five or six people around the table, it's even more fun, if that makes sense.
	So there is a special kind of elevated fun that can come with good-humored, good-natured people that you socialize with.
	So, yeah, I get that.
	I get that for sure.
	So, and again, for you, I mean, it's funny because at least you have your husband.
	I don't have any males around.
	But yeah, I can understand that you want that kind of community for sure.
	And I mean, you met your husband through Free Domain.
	Have you tried pinging anybody or putting the word out in case there's anybody in your environment who, unlike your friend with the question mark autistic kid, who stopped listening?
	Maybe there's people who are around who are still listeners who might, I mean, they would obviously share most of the values.
	Well, I did have a group, you know, of moms that I, or women that I met through your show.
	Again, we were infiltrated by single moms.
	I've been there too.
	And also, oh, and they couldn't see it.
	They couldn't?
	No.
	And like, it was just something like we didn't talk about, you know, like, well, it's funny too, because I've been pretty blunt about the challenges of single motherhood.
	And so it's not like that would be some forbidden topic, right?
	Well, it ended up who I'm like, I'm feeling a little nervous about don't talk about anything you don't want to share publicly.
	That's totally fine.
	So it didn't, it didn't work out in that particular context, right?
	Yes.
	After listening to your, you had that recent call in with a mom looking to meet other moms, and you mentioned forming a group with a manifesto with a mission statement that they have to sign off on.
	And if they don't stick to the mission statement, they get kicked out.
	I have been thinking about that, but it would be, I think it would have to be like an online group, you know, not an in-person group.
	But because that might be something to start with.
	And again, you don't know.
	I know traveling, maybe they're, you know, two or three hours' drive away, and you could meet that way.
	I know taking three kids on a plane can be quite exciting.
	But it's always for me, it's always the cost-benefit.
	Like a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
	It's like, okay, so let's say I start to get involved in some other group.
	Okay, well, I've seen this play out a bunch of times before.
	How am I going to, you know, and investment and time and effort and energy and sometimes stress and so on.
	You know, for me, it's like I spent my, you know, the first 30 years of my life trying to turn my family of origin into decent people and not having any success.
	In fact, it was a giant waste of effort.
	And so I don't want to do that.
	I don't want to.
	I don't want to be a pirate.
	Right.
	I don't want to put that effort and energy in again.
	So I just, you know, hang fast to the friends that I have.
	And the cost-benefit is a real, a real challenge in that way, which is I don't want to get further embittered.
	I don't want to waste time, effort, and energy.
	I don't want, you know, let's say my daughter becomes friends and then whatever the relationship doesn't work out.
	And that's also its own challenge.
	So it has to be pretty substantial, at least for me, to work in it that way.
	So let me ask you this: which is your kids seem pretty happy.
	Sorry, this is like the laser sniffing out the target, right?
	So your kids seem pretty happy with the socializing they have, right?
	Yes.
	Sounds like your husband's happy with you, the kids, and a couple of hand puppets because he's kind of introverted, as you said, right?
	Yes.
	Okay, sure.
	So let's see here.
	We've got five people.
	Oh, your baby, obviously, just cares about mom and dad and siblings, and that's it, right?
	So of the five people in the family, just I'm just triangulating here about who has the actual issue.
	Oh, we've rested on you.
	There we go.
	It's me.
	Okay, that's fine.
	That's fine.
	It's just, it's not for others, which is, again, doesn't mean it's not important.
	You're important too, right?
	So, but it's not, is it because you think your kids need it or your husband should have it?
	Or why is what is the driver for socializing?
	And listen, if it's just you, that's totally valid.
	That's really important.
	I just want to understand what's driving it.
	Well, there is the me.
	There's me.
	So I have since I since I wrote you the message, it was a few weeks ago.
	I've been thinking about it a lot since then.
	I've been like wondering if it's just like I have some inner critic activity that comes up that's like, oh, you know, I'm a loser because I don't have any friends or something like that.
	That comes up a little for sure.
	I've noticed that.
	That's teen stuff for sure, right?
	Because in teenage life, friends are super important.
	Really, they are very important.
	Or at school, like you have to have a friend group to be safe, right?
	Well, and you have to have a friend group because that's the best way to pick out a future mate.
	I mean, the way that we evolved.
	If you're ostracized by your friend group, that causes great physical pain in people, and in particular, in girls, because you need that community to get a man, to help you raise your kids.
	Men can go be solitary hunters and whatever, do their thing on their own to a large degree.
	But the women who were indifferent to other women's approval, their kids had a lower chance of survival.
	So that stuff got weeded out pretty quickly in our evolution.
	When you're a teenager, then friends are very, very important.
	And it's hard to think of a teenager who's totally solitary to comes out well.
	Like, this just doesn't, that doesn't really happen, right?
	Right, right.
	Well, and I mean, and for me, my friend group as a teenager, I was getting away from my family of origin.
	That was really important to me at the time, like being able to spend time away from that.
	There was an escape from my family.
	Oh, for sure.
	Yeah, for sure.
	So, yeah, so teenage friendship stuff is very important.
	And what decade of life are you in?
	I'm pushing 40.
	Not quite 40 yet.
	Oh, you're one of these people with a very young voice.
	Oh, how nice of you.
	I sound like a cryptkeeper.
	Oh, welcome to Wither.
	But, okay, so okay, so you're pushing 40.
	So what is, and I asked this question not because I don't think there are any.
	I just want to make sure I understand your thinking.
	So what is the ideal that you would get out of friends at the moment?
	What is it that you would get that would be a big, the biggest pluses?
	And again, I'm not saying, well, I'm not going to knock them down.
	I just want to know what they are for you.
	Yeah, you know, I knew you were going to ask this.
	I was thinking, I was trying to think about it because I don't have a clear idea.
	Like in the past, when my older kids were younger, I had been thinking one of the big benefits of having other moms around, we could share resources, we could like exchange.
	I know for a little bit, I did like a babysitting exchange with another mom where my husband and I were able to have a date night while she hung out with all the kids and then we switched, right?
	So I really liked that.
	But that's like, seems more utilitarian.
	You know, it doesn't.
	That's fine.
	There's nothing wrong with utilitarian.
	I mean, there has to be benefits, right?
	Otherwise, it's just self-sacrifice.
	And what happened to that relationship?
	What did you do?
	I'm just kidding.
	What happened?
	She's the one actually we are still friends with, but we haven't done the babysitting.
	Thank God because we both had babies.
	We both had little ones that were like attached to our boobs.
	And it got harder to manage that.
	I mean, that may come back a little as the babies grow up.
	And when was the last time that she was able to watch your kids?
	Oh, like two years ago.
	Okay, that's a little bit before the baby, who's eight months.
	Well, she had a baby.
	She had one.
	Oh, sorry.
	You mentioned that.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Yeah, she had the baby.
	And then a little beat later, we had another baby.
	So staggered.
	And this is why when you bring kids into the mix, friendships become much more complicated.
	Right.
	Right.
	Because of the baby chain and all of that sort of stuff.
	Okay.
	So there was that.
	And listen, again, there's nothing wrong with utilitarian at all.
	I mean, we are resource exchanging machines.
	And obviously, the mutual benefit can be purely emotional or whatever it is.
	But so, yeah, I wouldn't, there's nothing wrong with utilitarian.
	Because in utilitarian is implied respect and value in that if she's willing to, if you're willing to have her watch your kids, it's because she's a good person.
	So there is the moral system is sort of baked into that.
	Okay.
	So I mean, for fun, right?
	I mean, have a good time together.
	But again, these so far, when I've been trying to join these friend groups, it hasn't been fun.
	It's been like stressful.
	Has there been, has there been, because sometimes there's that bit of love bombing at the beginning where everyone pretends to get along by being, you know, relentlessly positive and enthusiastic often.
	So have you had any sort of like fun at the beginning that kind of has you around waiting for more?
	Or has it been tougher in the beginning?
	Well, so the other relationship I kind of wanted to pick your brain about was this friend of mine who we were really close.
	I thought we were really close at the beginning, but apparently she wasn't telling me stuff because it was like two years into our friendship that, and she had just moved away and she told me that she was thinking about getting divorced, like that her relationship with her husband was really bad.
	I was like, whoa, that's crazy.
	Have you read these parenting books?
	Not parenting, sorry, marriage books.
	Have you read these marriage books?
	Like, have you heard of John Gottman?
	There's, there are resources for this, you know, kind of thing.
	But, um, and then she tried a few things for a few years.
	And then, but then now it's like they're divorced.
	And I and sorry, are there kids involved?
	Yes.
	She has two kids who that was the only, I was trying to think of red flags with her.
	The only red, so there was two red, two major red flags.
	One, it was a shotgun wedding.
	She was, she was pregnant when they got married and they sort of got married in a rush because they were pregnant.
	And then the other red flag was immediately after she had her baby, they got pregnant again and like immediately.
	Like she has, she has Irish twins, you know.
	So I remember when she told me she, because I had, I was still pregnant.
	I think we were pregnant together.
	She was already pregnant again.
	When she told me, I was like, oh my gosh, like, and she had kind of a difficult burst too.
	I was like, don't, were you guys using protection?
	Like, what?
	Well, I was like, is the baby clear?
	I'm going in.
	Yeah, I know.
	And I was like, I was like, how?
	Are you okay?
	Like, does that just seem like a good time to have another baby?
	I'm like, did you use protection?
	She's like, oh, we just didn't care.
	We just didn't care.
	I was like, oh, okay.
	Wow.
	Impulsivity is so much fun until it's not.
	Right.
	And of course, then after she did care after the second, you know, it was a lot harder for the second time.
	So then I guess she got her tubes out or something.
	But so those are the two red flags that came up when I was thinking back on it.
	But then she went through all the divorce and it was really, it was really hard.
	It was really messy.
	You know, there was some, I was really confused about her divorce because there was some, she was telling me like that he was abusive in that like she was afraid for her safety.
	And yet her kids, like her kids have visitation with him.
	Like they see him like every weekend or something.
	And I'm like, if he was really that unsafe, then how, why is this happening?
	And my friend, my friend, my friend, you can't possibly, I'm so sorry.
	You're a very intelligent young lady, but you can't possibly think that you can get the truth out of anybody going through a divorce, right?
	I mean, divorce is just nothing but a filthy nest of lies all around.
	Nobody can tell the truth.
	Especially, that's why I asked if there are kids, right?
	Nobody can tell the truth.
	And in particular, if there are kids involved, nobody can tell the truth about anything.
	It's all just because they all, they have to live, they can't stand each other, but they share kids.
	So unless there's someone going for like full custody and stuff, it's just, it's a filthy nest of falsehood and you can't get the truth about anything.
	And, you know, you talk to two different sides of a divorce and it's like they're living on completely different planets.
	And this.
	So again, all due respect to your friends, you know, maybe she wants to tell the truth, but I've talked to enough guys who are divorced who are like, well, what do I tell my kids about why we got divorced?
	I'm like, you can't.
	Like, let's say the mom cheated.
	You can't say that.
	Right.
	Because if you say, well, the reason we got divorced is your mom cheated.
	And they go back to their mom and they say, well, dad says you cheated.
	Right.
	Right.
	And you're back in court.
	And there goes another $20,000.
	And yeah, You can't get honesty from anybody going through a divorce.
	And even if you, even if you can, like, even if you think someone might be telling the truth, well, how do you verify it?
	Right?
	Because, of course, if she says, oh, he was abusive, and then, you know, let's say you have some kind of relationship with him and you want to check that fact, right?
	And you go to him and you say, well, she says you were abusive.
	He's going to say, oh, yeah, totally I was.
	Oh, yeah, she's 100% right.
	Right?
	He's not going to say that.
	He's going to say, no, she was the abusive one.
	I did nothing.
	And blah.
	You just, you cannot get the truth.
	This is why court battles go on for so long because everybody lies in divorces.
	I've not seen a symbol, single exception.
	And even if they somehow want to tell the truth, they can't.
	So, yeah.
	So the fact that there's falsehood in divorce is, it's also called divorce.
	Well, and then when we're talking, like we've had a couple of conversations since the divorce is final, and she's, she's changed.
	Like, and I don't, maybe she was always this way, but she sounds like she sounds bitter.
	And like, she always was so positive, you know, and like had such like a lively spirit.
	And it's like, it seems like it's broken now and it's really depressing.
	And it's really hard to talk about my great marriage, you know?
	So bitter how.
	What do you mean?
	So let's see.
	So she would talk about like her ex having the kids.
	Like how we were, we were discussing screen time.
	Like I recently read, I had at the time I'd read the anxious generation and really wanted to talk to everybody about it.
	Like, oh, you know, the effects of screens on kids.
	And she was saying, well, you know, my over here, they don't, you know, they don't have, they don't have screens here.
	This is their sanctuary here.
	But, you know, their dad, he just sits all screens the whole time there, you know, kind of thing.
	And I'm trying to think how it was more just like in her tone.
	Like she's, shoot, I can't, I don't know if I have a specific example.
	It was more just like a feeling, which I know.
	It's so girly, I know.
	No, no, this one, I have great respect for women's instincts.
	So yeah, I mean, divorce is a smashing up of any idealism about a relationship.
	And divorce, I mean, the bitter divorcee is sort of a cliche for a reason.
	And screen stuff is a challenge because, of course, you can say, well, I don't want my kids to have any screens, but that basically means they don't have a social life because just about everything is arranged on phones these days.
	And, you know, they don't know the memes.
	They don't know the jokes.
	They don't know this.
	They don't know that.
	And like when I was a kid, there was a guy in my school when I was in England, not the boarding school, but the one after that before we came to Canada.
	And there was a kid that parents didn't have a TV.
	Now, you can say, oh, that's really great.
	Except basically we talked about what we'd seen on TV and he was never, didn't have anyone close to him.
	And like, it's just one of these, whether you can say it's good or bad, it's just a sort of fact that if you, you can say to your kids, no screens, but that means that they really can't have much of a social life when they get older.
	So it's like this, this answer that people have.
	It's like, no screens.
	And it's like, okay, well, but then no socialization or less.
	And socialization is good for kids.
	Even if you say screens are bad for them, socialization is good for them.
	So it's just a match, you know, mix and match your pleasures and poisons, your pluses and your minuses, but there's no sort of simple answer, like no screens, right?
	I mean, it's also like, no, no sugar.
	And it's like, okay, so there's definitely benefits to that.
	I get that.
	But they then seem as they're seen as weird by their friends.
	Want to go Halloween?
	No, I can't have any sugar.
	You know, hey, chocolate cake, birthday time.
	No, I can't have any sugar.
	Like, I mean, it's just, it's pick your pluses and minuses.
	That's all.
	And the idea that it's this, well, no sugar, no dairy, no gluten.
	Hey, remember them.
	That's just going to solve all your problems.
	It's like, no, because your kids are weirdo now who can't have any chocolate cake and can't go trick-or-treating and can't get stupid with candy.
	And I don't know.
	Like, it's, it's, but it's all about often it's the moms, right?
	But it's just about, well, I don't like him to have sugar.
	And it's like, hey, I get that.
	I get that.
	But there's sugar out there, and sugar is part of socializing for kids.
	And if you make your kids too weird or too unusual, then, you know, you ever have those kids, I can't touch this.
	I can't touch that.
	I can't touch the other.
	And it's like, it's just too much of a hassle to have that kid over.
	I mean, they can't be in contact with any pine nuts.
	It's like, I don't know.
	Why are pine nuts?
	I mean, could they be so?
	I don't know, right?
	So just don't invite them.
	And so, again, if it's genuine allergy, of course, nothing but sympathy.
	But if it's more of a choice, then, well, he gets really upset when he has dairy.
	And it's like, well, maybe you should learn how to deal with the upset rather than not have any dairy.
	I don't know.
	So yeah, sorry, just again, sort of, you're putting me on side quests that are probably kind of rude.
	So let me get back to you.
	No, it's okay.
	I actually have, I've tried to be really careful when I talk about screens too, because we're not extremists.
	Like we have a TV, they do, you know, the boys love their video game time, like with their, especially with their dad.
	Like we, we do it, but we just try to in moderation, you know, and try to.
	Oh, yeah, of course, you try to have fun activities, you know, like my daughter and I will play games from time to time, and we have a great deal of fun and good, good laughter and memories from those.
	And yeah, well, we go to marketing and skiing too.
	So you just more about what the oh, sorry.
	No, go ahead.
	It's just more about what the screens like take away from, like they take away from free play or healthy risk-taking, you know, that kind of thing.
	It's more like what they take away to the sure.
	But they also bring socialization and they also bring hand-eye coordination.
	They also bring problem solving.
	So again, it's the pluses.
	And there are very few things in life that are just straight up minuses, and most mature people never really encounter them.
	But yeah, so otherwise, it's just a mix and match your pluses and minuses.
	Okay, so for you, tell me the pluses.
	Again, I'm sorry to I'm the one dragging you all over Hell's Half Acre with tangents, but let's get back to the pluses.
	So yes, you can have date night with your husband if because you don't have extended family around, so because they're all busy chasing 40-year-old relationships, but or lying about them or being lied to about them.
	So you don't have that kind of stuff.
	And it's not like you could probably hire babysitters because your kids probably wouldn't be particularly keen, plus you got an eight-month-old, which is not really the right time.
	So let's take that off the table because it probably isn't going to happen for a while.
	So what are the other positives of friendships?
	Well, it's so fun to deal with all this drama.
	No, I mean, exchange.
	Oh, I got it.
	Oh, here we go.
	I'm on to something here.
	So we're exchanging ideas.
	Like, I think, especially with other moms, you know, hearing about community events, like cool things going on.
	I know in our area, some of the homeschool groups are actually, you can't find them online.
	They are just word of mouth groups.
	Like, they don't want an online footprint for, I don't know if it's like legal reasons.
	I don't know.
	But yeah, if you don't, if you're not hooked in with like the homeschool crowd here, like you miss out on stuff, you know?
	So just sorry, this is stuff that you want to do or your family wants to do.
	Probably mostly me, not them.
	Okay, so like what sort of activities?
	Well, we I heard about there was a like a Lego group that would meet up for a while.
	Um but again, my son, he loves Legos.
	He was not interested in the Lego group.
	Um there was a like farm, like outdoor farm class, like for preschoolers, you know, like little stuff.
	Um, again, like my son was not interested.
	Um, and it was also going to be a really long drive.
	We live in a small town, just so you know, just for context.
	Um, yeah, and uh yeah, I think it's mostly me who like wants, and I have to be so careful with like trying to keep up with the Joneses, right?
	Right, because we want to prioritize free play, like that is our main sort of activity for them.
	So we want to prioritize free play, but yeah, my husband and I, we free play is really important to us for the kids, like but they don't are not scheduled all hours of the day, right?
	Because I see that well, but they get that.
	I mean, they would get that with siblings.
	I mean, how close in age are your oldest?
	They're two and a half years apart, so they're buddies.
	Yeah, okay, got it.
	So there is certainly some level of it could be handy for them to have kids actually their own age for sure.
	But do they want it?
	Well, and there's, there is a kid down the street, right, that is the same age as my oldest.
	And both kids, both older kids, really like this kid down the street.
	He's he's super fun and funny.
	But again, he's, and he's, I really like the kid and he, you know, come over sometimes and they'll meet up like down the cul-de-sac and play around.
	And I, I love that for them, except the family definitely has red flags about them, which I, you know, it's a tricky situation because we love the kid, they're neighbors, you know, we can't get away from them.
	But I don't want to be like close with the mom.
	I want to keep like an arm's length a bit, like play dates like once a month is like good.
	That's good for me for that family, you know.
	And word just give me some indication of the red flags.
	So she had told me, the mom told me that she and her husband used, so okay, the first red flag, so I'm going to start from the beginning here, is that they are, neither one is employed and they are living with the husband's parents.
	They live in like the basement there.
	They moved in like a year and a half ago or something like that.
	Don't know why exactly the husband doesn't have a job.
	They have three kids.
	And the next red flag, she had told me that they had, that she and her husband used to have screaming fights at each other, like really, and like that he would like storm off and leave, like threaten to leave them.
	And then he came back and then they had a makeup baby.
	That was their latest baby, was the makeup baby who was about a year old now.
	I'm like, oh, interesting.
	Okay.
	Thank you for that information.
	One time we were at the library, ran into this, this family, and there was a woman with them.
	And I didn't really understand who she was.
	And I think she might have been from social services, like witnessing, like observing them.
	Again, like, I don't know for sure, but that seemed like what was happening.
	And also, the mom has like some very confusing health issues, like around like she can't eat food.
	She has like a stomach and like, and the doctors don't know why.
	And it sounds like anorexia to me.
	But she has like a feeding tube and like an IV, and she can't eat because fluid made her tummy hurt.
	And so, and now she's having all these complications from the feeding tube.
	I'm kind of like a feeding tube in her belly button, yeah.
	Well, she had it there for a while, but then something she got like an infection, and now it goes right into her heart.
	And it's like more viable to get infection, it's very confusing.
	And yeah, I remember seeing a I can't remember what it was, I think it was an intervention show, and there was a woman who fed herself with a giant syringe into a tube in her belly.
	And the reason she did that, I don't know anything about this year, neighbor, of course, but I just remembered that the reason she did that was that she had been forced to perform oral sex when she was a child, and so she had too much body memory of ugly things going in her mouth, and so she had to feed, or she felt that she had to feed herself that way.
	Again, I mean, it's just it's definitely sort of odd and bizarre and highly dysfunctional.
	Uh, that's that's messed up, yeah, that's messed up.
	So, there's a lot of red flags about that family, but I can see that the seven-year-old is super fun to play with.
	Um, well, he's got to get out, yeah.
	I remember I had functional friends when I was a kid, and I was like, I was the nicest kid you could possibly imagine because it's like, I really need to be invited, I really need to be welcome because it's kind of crazy at home.
	So, yeah, but yeah, it's gonna come out at some point for sure, yeah.
	Yeah, so again, like I think we're okay with them just like playing, but then like often the kids want to go into their like where they play.
	It's sort of complicated with the structure of how our house, how the neighborhood is set up.
	It's like closer to their house, like the little, they have this little overhang of trees that they call the tortuga from wildcats.
	I don't, anyway, they play there, and it's like really close to his house, and he'll, my kids will like go into their house like without telling us.
	And anyways, and I'll have to text the mom being like, Oh my kids over there because we they are welcome.
	Like my older kids, they we trust them to come in and out of the house, you know, we're not like helicopter parents, or you know, we want them to have that freedom to be able to play outside.
	Um, and I know boomers don't like that, they're like we have a boomer neighbor who's like very judgy about that we let our kids outside without like having eyeballs on them all the time.
	But we do that and they'll go and they'll pay with that, they'll pay with the boy that I am not saying the name.
	Um, and so does that make sense?
	Yep, yeah, totally got it, totally got it.
	Okay, and so having, yeah, so let's get back to the benefits for you of a friends right like sharing, like I said, fun sharing resources, um, sharing information.
	I love talking about like books that I read and um ideas, and I do love being finding friends who like to talk about ideas too, you know.
	It's it's good fun and uh keeps me sharp.
	I feel like my uh my mother, whole mother, she's she's uh as she's gotten older.
	I saw her, I almost refood like a couple years ago, and that's when we talked.
	I talked to you right after all that, and uh, I haven't talked to her since, but when I saw her, it was like really horrifying seeing her life, like almost like a little like going to the bar.
	Um, and one thing is she's wait what so she talked about going to the bar.
	I don't know what that, I didn't quite get that.
	There was a lot of syllables there that didn't quite expand themselves into comprehensibility in my mind.
	Let me let me explain.
	So I went to her house and she's borderline hoarder, not like as bad as the show, but like piles of stuff everywhere.
	You know, you couldn't use the table and she just doesn't see it.
	She doesn't leave the house anymore at this point, really.
	And she doesn't have any friends.
	And she, the way she talks, it's really clear that like no, she's just around yes people, right?
	Like there's no one pushing back against her at all.
	They just say, yeah, you know, whatever.
	Yeah, so nobody, nobody cares about her enough to tell the truth or anything, right?
	Yes.
	And she's just not even around people.
	And I don't want to be like that.
	Okay, hang on, hang on, hang on.
	Okay, you've got four people in your life who love and care about you enormously, right?
	Okay.
	How many people does your mother have in her life who love and care about her enormously?
	One, me.
	I mean, love is the strong word.
	I don't, you know, they.
	Zero.
	Zero.
	I know this, zero.
	I'm sorry, because love is a virtue.
	Love is our response to virtue.
	And if I remember rightly, your mother is not a virtuous person.
	No, she's not.
	Because if she was a virtuous person, she'd be in your life.
	Okay.
	Yes, for sure.
	So listen, weird stuff when people get old is not an accident.
	It's not an accident.
	It's more causal than smoking.
	Like if you had some, let's say you never smoked and you had some uncle who died of lung cancer after smoking two packs a day for like 50 years, right?
	Yeah.
	Would you sit there and say, oh, but I'm really worried about getting lung cancer?
	No.
	Because you don't smoke.
	Yeah.
	So, and I know this from my own family.
	So weird stuff when you get old, like isolation or loneliness or, you know, whatever lack of quality of life, lack of quality of relationships.
	That's not, it's not an accident.
	It's not weird.
	It's the result of bad behavior.
	If you've been a jerk to people, if you've been selfish, so this is the tragic consequences, let's say, if your mom was selfish or whatever.
	Like, what's the word that you would use?
	I want to make sure I use an accurate word with regards to your mother.
	What was her major flaw?
	Narcissism.
	Okay, narcissism.
	All right.
	I wasn't going to say it, but that's, you know, okay, let's say narcissism.
	All right.
	So narcissists use people and don't form connections.
	Now, the problem with narcissism is the only way you get to use people in general is because you have something to offer them, right?
	So you think of the traditional narcissistic agent for movies or actors or whatever it is, right?
	So the narcissist can get people to do what he wants because he can offer them to represent them, to get movie roles or TV roles or whatever theater roles.
	So he's something to offer, right?
	So the narcissist has to have something to offer.
	The young woman who's a narcissist who also happens to be very physically attractive, she has sexual access to offer, so she can make people dance to her tune.
	The narcissist has to have something of value that they can grant or deny.
	You think of the politician.
	Well, I can give you this contract or I can get you black balls from the industry.
	Right?
	And so, so, or the boss, I can give you the job or I can fire you or whatever it is, right?
	They have something to offer.
	And so they can make people dance to their tune because they have something to offer.
	I have a whole character arc of a woman named Helen.
	This is a minor spoiler, but I don't think it's too much of a spoiler.
	But there's this woman in my last novel named Helen who is very physically attractive.
	And, you know, when she's slender, it's very attractive when she's younger.
	When she's old and bony, it's just kind of ugh, right?
	And I take her from like 20 to 80.
	And there's points in her life, she's starting to lose her attractiveness.
	She doesn't have anything other really than her looks to offer.
	And when she's old, she has no leverage with anyone because she doesn't have anything to offer anymore.
	And so with narcissists, the last 20, 25 years, especially after they retire or if the woman is no longer in demand from a dating standpoint or whatever, right?
	They got nothing to offer.
	And therefore, they can't make anyone do what they want.
	You know, it's like the mystery of Hunter Biden.
	Boy, he made a fortune when his daddy was president, right?
	And now he's millions of dollars in debt, can't make a penny.
	He used to sell all of this artwork.
	Apparently, he was an amazing artist when his dad was president.
	But now that his dad is no longer president, it's weird.
	He can't sell any art to save his life.
	Because obviously it was just some sort of political money, whatever, right?
	So with narcissists, yeah, their old age sucks in the same way that if you're a chain smoker, your old age sucks.
	I mean, and probably isn't very long, except that the narcissist will just keep living.
	But your mother, everybody runs out of power in the last 20 years that you have no power.
	You're not beautiful.
	You're not sexy.
	You don't have jobs to offer people.
	Maybe if you have a bunch of money, then you can make people dance to your tune by threatening inheritance or withholding inheritance or writing people out of the will or something like that.
	But that's not the case for most people.
	So the last quarter century, that's when the bill comes due for being selfish.
	Is that you don't have anything to offer people.
	You can't make them dance to your tune.
	Nobody cares about you.
	And you've got no leverage.
	You've got no leverage.
	So with your mother, if she's like alone and going weird, it's like, well, yeah, like I'm sorry.
	Like I really am sorry that that happens to people, but I can't claim to be surprised.
	And I can't change it because I can't go back in time and have them make better decisions in their social skills and in their social life so that they actually become good people that people will care about.
	So they used people, and then when they get old, nobody has any use for them.
	I mean, what does your mom have to offer someone?
	Let's say that there's someone in the neighborhood who's a good, kind, quality, virtuous person, who, because you're good, kind, quality, virtuous people, you have good relationships that are really stable and will last your whole life because that's why you do good to have good relationships.
	One of the main reasons.
	So let's say your mother in her neighborhood, some older woman moves in who's good, kind, virtuous, has integrity, honesty, has quality relationships, family that loves her, and she meets your mom.
	what does your mom have to offer her the only thing would be money but she's well she's not for sale because she's a good person right Yeah, yeah.
	Okay, so she doesn't want your mom's money.
	Yeah.
	And of course, any friendship that would be for sale wouldn't really be friendship.
	So, I mean, it's clear what the virtuous person would have to offer your mother, but what would your mother have to offer the virtuous person?
	Nothing.
	Well, right, right, negatives.
	Hey, I'm weird.
	Hey, I'm a hoarder.
	Hey, I have ill health.
	Hey, you can take care of me without any emotional connection with me.
	Hey, we have no history together.
	Hey, I have no skills of win-win negotiations.
	Hey, I'm all alone.
	You know, it's kind of like the homeless people, like the people who are old, then all alone.
	I mean, I remember, I think I mentioned the story, but it was years ago.
	When I was working up north, sometimes we'd come out of the bush and we'd spend a month in an apartment.
	And I remember I had an apartment that I lived in with the woman I was generally working with.
	And I remember we came back from picking up some groceries and I was trying to go upstairs and this bony arm grabbed me.
	There was a woman in the basement apartment and she almost half dragged me into her place.
	And she was, I don't know, looking back, maybe 70, maybe 75.
	And she was half drunk and she basically kept me there for an hour or two because it was her ex-husband's birthday and she was celebrating.
	She had no one to celebrate it with.
	And apparently he'd made a record which she kept playing, like a song that she kept playing.
	And she was like desperately alone.
	You know, when you see these people, they have this void around them.
	And then they grab onto people like a drowning man with a piece of wood, right?
	Like a barrel or something.
	I'm going to die.
	And she just grabbed some stranger from the hallway, pulled him in, and I couldn't get out.
	I'm like, oh, I've got to put my grocery risk.
	Just wait, right?
	And she tells some other story.
	And honestly, it was, and I had to avoid.
	Like every time I'd come in, like I'd look for that bony arm coming out of the door and I'd have to avoid her.
	It sounds like a it just sounds like a horror film.
	Like she's just like coming out of the dark like a witch.
	Yeah, it is a horror film.
	It is a horror film.
	And I honestly can't remember if she didn't have children or if her children didn't have anything to do with her or whatever, right?
	But it doesn't matter.
	So all I knew was that she had gone through three quarters of a century on this planet and had no one who cared about her.
	Now, that's not an accident.
	That's not an accident.
	It's the Scott Adams thing.
	I was just talking about this in the show last night.
	And I want to really pause on this because it's something that old people who are alone, we have a great deal of pity for them.
	And, you know, my mother is one of them.
	She's old and she's alone.
	And it's very sad.
	It is very sad.
	But Scott Adams, if he was just some cartoonist who published Dilbert and never did really anything else, then, you know, he's unfortunately obviously dying and all of that and may not make it another couple of weeks.
	But the amount of love, affection, and support and care and concern and appreciation that's pouring into him is because he has been very generous with his time, intellect, and energy in doing live streams and taking on courageous issues.
	You know, he says that he's lost like $100 million from his support of Trump, which, of course, for people who support Trump, it's a very big deal.
	It's probably entirely since Trump in 2016 won by 17,000 votes.
	It seems entirely probable, if not an absolute fact, that if Scott Adams had not done his thing in 2015, 2016, then Trump would never have been elected.
	And it would have been Hillary Clinton and war and censorship and deplatforming and, you know, all this sort of terrible stuff.
	So people appreciate him because he's been generous with his time, effort, intellect, and energy.
	He doesn't put ads on his live streams, as far as I can tell, and he doesn't charge for them and so on.
	And so he's been very generous in helping people.
	And so he's not alone in his final weeks.
	He gets a lot of people watching him.
	He gets to share his journey towards death, which again is really tragic and sad.
	But he's not alone for very important reasons.
	So with regards to your mother, I listen, I understand the pity.
	I do.
	It haunts me from time to time thinking of my mother in her apartment with her piles of useless papers for endless court cases and so on.
	Like, it's really, it's very sad that she's never met her granddaughter and that she's alone and has been for decades.
	And I can't do anything.
	I'm helpless about it.
	I can't do anything about it any more than I can undo the effects of 50 years of two packs a day smoking.
	There's no magic wand where I can make that go away.
	I can't donate my lungs because then I die, right?
	So I can't, we can't undo the past.
	We cannot undo the effects of people's decisions.
	If somebody is, you know, 600 pounds, they can never not have been 600 pounds.
	Like even if they lose all that weight, then they have all this crazy loose skin hanging around them and they still have health effects and so on, right?
	And we can't undo this kind of stuff.
	If somebody chose not to become a ballet dancer when they were in their teens, there's no point them starting in their 50s, right?
	And so for your mother, if she's a narcissist, she's paying the price, right?
	So heaven and hell is just old age.
	Like that's all it means, right?
	So in heaven, right, you are together with loved ones, you have great grace and comfort, you're bathed in light.
	Well, that's reaping the rewards of investing in relationships and being good to people over the course of your life.
	And if you're bad, you go to hell, which is just the last 25 years of your life when you have nothing tangible or practical to offer people.
	You can't give them jobs.
	They don't want to have sex with you.
	You don't really have anything to offer in a material or sexual manner.
	And so you're alone.
	If you used people, then you can't really complain about being alone when you have no utility for people.
	If people have just been objects to you, then when you can't provide any value, you're going to be alone.
	And heaven and hell is just the last, you know, 65 to, I don't know, 90, 55 to 80.
	It's just the last 25 years of your life or 20 years of your life or maybe 59, who knows, right?
	But most people, like women in particular, retire at 65, they live 20 years, right?
	20, I think 2022.
	I think this average is 87 for a lot of women, right?
	That's a long time, man.
	You think of when you were 18, 17 to where you are now, 16 or 17 to where you are now.
	That's a big old chunk of time.
	And it's a big old chunk of time when your body is failing and your mind is failing.
	And if you don't invest in relationships, it's like the people who don't save anything for their old age.
	Well, you're going to be broke.
	And I mean, at least you can give the money, but you can't be around people with no relationship skills, right?
	Because if your mother doesn't know how to negotiate, she doesn't know how to reason.
	She doesn't know how to provide value that is moral because she's been using people her whole life as a narcissist, she's not going to learn that when she's 70.
	She's just not.
	Because she probably can't even identify what the issue is.
	And of course, people who are narcissists, if you say to them, listen, you should try and find a way to have a win-win.
	You should really think about the other person's perspective.
	You shouldn't use people.
	Well, what do they do?
	Have you ever talked to your mom about that kind of stuff?
	What does she do?
	Oh, just defensiveness or burst into tears.
	It's a little like menu of deflecting things she can do.
	Yeah, it's just endless cavalcades of self-pity and manipulation and anger and mood switches.
	I mean, they just mutate into whatever allows them to dominate in the moment.
	Right.
	Of course, when I was younger, it was this.
	When I was younger, it was just you to scream, you know, of course.
	Yeah, yeah.
	So let me ask you this.
	In your world, if you could design the planet like a deity, in your world, should child abusers be happy in their old age?
	Hell no.
	Right.
	Should narcissists be happy in their old age?
	No.
	Right.
	It's when you see homeless people, you know for sure that they've burned through every relationship they've ever had to the point where people won't even let them crash on the couch.
	Should my mother be happy in her old age?
	I don't see how.
	I don't see how.
	Because it wouldn't be abuse if it wasn't negative.
	Should people who are overweight and don't exercise, should they be healthy?
	No.
	No, it doesn't.
	I mean, they're just not.
	You can't spend a lifetime dominating, screaming at, and abusing and exploiting people and be happy in your old age.
	And that's beyond the power of you and I to do anything about.
	We can't fix it.
	We can't change it.
	We could give some very short-term comfort, but it would be based upon a lie.
	Like if you're a doctor and someone comes in and they get some tests and it turns out they have terminal cancer, they got like three months to live or a month to live or something like that, right?
	And if you say to that person, oh, yeah, your test came back all clear, you're fine, are they relieved?
	Yes.
	Right.
	But they're going to die anyway.
	And it would be horrible for a doctor to do that, right?
	Because they need to get their affairs in order and they need to deal with what's happening.
	Because the whole time that they're sick and dying, the doctor could say to them, oh, yeah, no, this is just an anomaly.
	This is just the result of an allergy.
	Oh, whatever, right?
	They could just keep lying to them until they just died.
	That would not be healthy, right?
	That would not be good.
	So you can go and, if you want, you can call up your mom and say, oh, I was in the wrong.
	I miss you.
	I'm so sorry.
	Blah, blah, blah.
	And you could lie to her.
	No, thank you.
	And it would give her some temporary relief, for sure.
	But then all that would happen is she'd start treating you badly again.
	Yeah.
	And that would actually be kind of cruel to her.
	Like if I was, if I had a friend, I don't know, some alternate universe, I had a friend who had assaulted someone and was out on probation.
	And if he assaults anyone else, then he's gone right back to jail.
	And I know that he's really angry at me and can't control his temper around me.
	Is it responsible for me to spend time with him?
	No.
	No, because he's most likely going to assault me and then go back to jail.
	So the kindest thing I can do for my friend is what?
	Get him staying.
	Stay away.
	Yeah, stay away.
	Stay away.
	I know that my mother and my late father behaved badly around me.
	It wasn't to do with me.
	It's to do with guilt and all of their decisions, blah, blah, blah.
	So the kindest thing I can do is to not be around people who seem helpless in how they react to me, that they just lie and manipulate and like out of their own guilt and so on, right?
	So if my proximity to people provokes bad behavior in them, the kindest thing that I can do is stay away.
	Because if you got around with your mother, she would just lie and manipulate and pretend nothing happened and everything would be unreal and bizarre and she would end up treating you badly.
	Because that's what narcissists do.
	The moment you show them any weakness, they'll just start exploiting you.
	So, the kindest thing you can do, I think, for your mother is to not be around her if being around her has her act badly.
	But it's not, it's funny because it's not like, I don't want to speak for you, but it's not like I don't want my mother to suffer.
	It's just that any more than you want your uncle, who you care about, to die of lung cancer if he smokes.
	I don't want her to suffer, but it's absolutely inevitable that she will.
	And there's nothing that I can do about it.
	And there's really nothing anyone can do about it because the only people who she had any historical proximity to, she's burned all those bridges.
	So, people from the past can't help her because she's too full of guilt about how she's treated them.
	So, she can't be honest and direct, can't be helped or cured.
	So, the people she's had in her life in the past can't help her.
	And everybody else, why would they want to even try?
	Because every, it's like, why don't people just take some homeless guy and bring them into their house?
	Because we know that some homeless guy has burned through every one of his relationships and has got nobody like everyone else who knew this guy has kicked him out of their house, even knowing that he's going to end up homeless.
	Can I interrupt you?
	I don't want to interrupt to talk.
	Well, my fear is that because I sorry, I don't interrupt your thought for a really discouraged one.
	Sorry about that.
	No, I don't have a lot of the relationships from my past.
	I have, I don't know if I burn those bridges as quiet, but I chose to leave those relationships, right?
	Like, I don't have friends from high school or, I mean, I did go to my college, my 15-year college reunion, and I connected with some of the girls from college, but then we did, you know, and it was fun that weekend, but then we didn't talk again like after that, you know?
	So, I don't have these like historical relationships, right?
	And it's like, did I burn those?
	You know, I burned those bridges and now moving forward, like, I don't have new relationships either, right?
	I mean, I have, of course, I have new relationships with the people I created, the wonderful humans that live with me here.
	But in terms of like community, does that make sense, stuff?
	Because as you're talking, like, I'm like, did I burn all those bridges?
	Well, did you?
	I mean, did good people reach out to you, but you just couldn't help but exploit and manipulate them?
	No, it was different than that.
	It was in a different way.
	Okay, so what happened to your relationships from that college reunion, the 15-year one?
	Sorry, can you be more specific?
	Well, you said you hung out there, but then it never lasted after that.
	So why didn't it last?
	I mean, I didn't reach out, but they didn't either, you know.
	And right.
	So why didn't you reach out?
	Why didn't I reach out?
	Well, I mean, we're just very different, right?
	Like, so the gals that I connected with, one is a nurse.
	You know, she's a mom, but she's like a working mom.
	And her wife is also working.
	So their kids, I could get sick.
	Sorry, her wife.
	She's a lesbian.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	And like, they're both working moms and their kids have to be in daycare all the time.
	And they get like the most unique illnesses.
	Like she's posting on social media about all the newest, like hand, foot, and mouth and all kinds of like unique RSVs, all kinds of abbreviations I've never heard of.
	Yeah, it's why we need all these stupid vaccines.
	What people think that we do is because we're constantly getting these weird bug exposures from all over the planet.
	But anyway, sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah.
	Well, I mean, we just, we just have different, she's really busy because she works, you know.
	And so there was, and then the other gal I connected with, who, you know, in college, we were, I was really close with these two girls.
	She and her husband, they've been trying to get pregnant and they haven't been able to.
	It's really sad.
	And then I'm going around, like, I get pregnant immediately after seeing them.
	And she even asked us to be like surrogates.
	Like, so they're looking for a gestational carrier.
	I think that's how she phrased it.
	So it was a little bit awkward because I was like, thank you.
	Sorry, your friend from college wanted you to carry her baby.
	She didn't ask me directly.
	It was an indirect ask to both of me, because it was three of us hanging out.
	And so, yeah, I mean, she was kind of like, we're looking for gestational carriers if anyone's interested, kind of thing.
	And both me and the other girl looked at each other awkwardly because we both had, you know, our pregnancies were not easy.
	Like, we didn't have major health issues, but it just like being pregnant is like pretty hard.
	It's not.
	Well, it is for a lot of people, for sure, for sure.
	Yeah, one of these women who's like, oh, man, I shared a coffee cup with my husband.
	Here we go.
	Triplets.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So he's in positions.
	Yeah, not the same life circumstances.
	And certainly with regards to the lesbian nurse couple, there is an implicit criticism.
	Right.
	This isn't, well, I chose to live in France.
	You chose to live in Germany, blah, blah, blah.
	This like, whatever, it's your taste, right?
	This is, I think it's really important to spend time with your children if you're going to raise them.
	Like, if you have children, you should raise your children.
	And, you know, them choosing money over time with their children, that's not a neutral choice from your perspective, if I understand this correctly.
	No, I don't.
	I don't think it is.
	I think it's.
	And also, I mean, the fact that there's dad, they have two boys, you know, and there's no male presence.
	Also, I mean, I saw how they were disciplining their kids too.
	I mean, they were not spanking.
	They weren't, but they were doing this thing where one of the boys hit the younger boy and then they sort of wrestled him into a timeout for a long time, like, and like forced him.
	It was one of the moms, you know, she was, she was over there, like sweating and like trying to hold him in.
	You have to have this timeout right now, you know?
	And the kid was.
	It's tough for moms with sons because moms don't have the sign of kind of quiet authority that dads do.
	So they often have to.
	It's like the cops, like female cops pull their guns more often than male cops because male cops could just physically intimidate, so to speak.
	So not that I'm saying intimidation is the fact as a father with sons, you just get a kind of authority that the moms often don't, which is why moms often escalate in that way.
	But sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, it was really cringy to watch.
	And I told them, like, we actually don't do punishments at all.
	Like, there's some, I have some book recommendations.
	Like, if you're interested, you know, that could might be helpful in this situation.
	But of course, they weren't interested in my book recommendations for no punishment.
	You know, when you say that, like, to people, they're like really confused what that means.
	So it's, yeah, yeah.
	Are you storing up the punishments for later?
	No, no, no, just no punishments.
	You don't punish my husband if he forgets to take out the garbage or something.
	I mean, unless that's his preference.
	Oh, look, I forgot to take a, I forgot to take out the garbage.
	Oh, look, I dropped a ping pong pedal.
	No, I'm just kidding.
	All right.
	Okay.
	So there are implied criticisms that are based on value oppositions, right?
	Yes.
	So, and you can't be honest.
	So if you can't be honest, you can't have a relationship, right?
	You know that, right?
	Can you be honest with your mom?
	Hell no.
	Nope.
	I mean, in your family, dishonesty is not just there.
	It's a requirement.
	Don't tell my husband about my sexting.
	Like, it's a literal demand.
	You must be dishonest.
	So honesty and relationships are the same thing.
	I mean, I remember a friend of mine with volatile, with a volatile family, he said, I'm just really nervous. about confrontation.
	And I had to be that annoying friend who said, no, you're not.
	No, you're not.
	And I pointed out where he had talked to me about things, issues that he had with me.
	And I said, so you can confront me.
	You're not scared of confrontation.
	You're scared of being abused by people who have power over you, which is a legitimate fear.
	And so if you have relationships where if you're honest, you're going to get attacked, punished, ostracized, slandered, lied about, whatever, right?
	Well, they're not relationships.
	They're just like, it's like being held hostage.
	I love this prison cell.
	Can you leave?
	No.
	Okay, well, you can't really love it, right?
	So people you can't be honest with end up alone because they prefer their illusions to other people's facts.
	And if you prefer illusions to other people's facts, you will end up alone.
	Or, I mean, you'll end up with maybe with people who share your illusion, but that tends to become more fragile and fragmented as you get older because your illusions become more specific and then there's just room for fewer and fewer people until there's nobody.
	So, yeah, it's very sad.
	It is very sad when people end up old and alone.
	And nobody can do anything about it.
	Because you can't fix those choices.
	You can't undo those choices any more than you can undo 40 years of smoking.
	Can't clean that.
	So I don't, obviously, I don't take happiness in my mother being alone, but I'm also not going to mourn it because you make your choices and you take your consequences.
	That's the whole boomer thing, right?
	I mean, she was pre-boomer, but when I was growing up, all the adults said, well, you know, if you make bad choices, you will get bad consequences.
	If you fail to study for a test, you're going to fail you.
	And if you fail you enough times, we can take a year of your life by forcing you to repeat a grade, which is worse than prison in a way, right?
	So I was always told, hey, you know, don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
	Right.
	So people, when I was a kid, like five, six, seven years old, I was like, you know, hey, if you climb that fence to get that soccer ball, we're going to cane you.
	And if you don't do your, if you don't do your homework, we're going to give you lines.
	And if you don't do your lines, we're going to double them.
	And then you've got to stay in after school.
	And there was just this, hey, if you make bad choices, you get negative consequences.
	Okay.
	I mean, it's not how I want to raise children, but that was the rule in society.
	If you make bad choices, you're going to get bad consequences.
	Don't blame me.
	It's not the judge who puts you in prison.
	It's your own criminality.
	And I'm sure when you were a kid, did your mother say that if you make bad choices, you have to accept bad consequences?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So people who make bad choices inflict bad consequences.
	Right.
	I mean, she was a screamer, right?
	So if you don't, if you displease her, if you do something she considers, quote, wrong, then she'll scream at you, right?
	So she's inflicting bad consequences.
	Are you inflicting bad consequences on her?
	Are you screaming at her?
	Are you punishing her?
	Are you holding her up by the ear and setting her down on the step for one minute for every year of age?
	No.
	So it's much kinder than she ever was.
	For me, it's like, well, I had to lie as a kid.
	I don't have to lie as an adult.
	And why would I want to go back to lie?
	I had no choice but to lie as a kid.
	You know, like if I took out a flashlight or I lost the flashlight and my mom said, where's the flashlight?
	I had to lie.
	Because the consequence of not lying was violence.
	So I'm going to lie.
	And I had to do that as a kid.
	I have no regrets about it.
	I don't even consider it lying.
	It's just survival.
	And I'm sure that you told lies to your mother because of her temper, right?
	Absolutely.
	I had 50 cents in my purse.
	Where is it?
	I don't know.
	I mean, I'd like to say occasionally I took quarters just for food.
	Sometimes I did, but sometimes it was for a video game.
	That's all right.
	I don't care.
	I mean, honestly, it doesn't matter to me at all.
	So I had to lie because I was under threat.
	I didn't have to lie.
	I chose to lie.
	And to me, it's a perfectly viable thing to do.
	So I don't have to lie now.
	And the only reason I would lie is because I would perceive that, say, my mother would have power over me, which she doesn't.
	But because my mother behaves very badly when she has power over people, I can't lie to her because that would give her power over me, which she would then misuse and it would make her even more unhappy.
	Like, my relationship with my mother, which is not to have a relationship, is the most beneficial and least harmful thing I can do.
	So for your mother, when you say, I'm concerned about ending up like her, or and maybe this social stuff that you have is some magical thinking.
	Well, what happened to my mother was that she didn't have enough of a social circle, and I need that, otherwise I could end up like her.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes.
	But that's not it.
	Right.
	That's not it.
	Your mother ended up alone because she's a bad person.
	And she ended up alone.
	I mean, if you're some matriarch who's got $10 million to disperse when she dies, then you can still have power, but she's not anything like that, right?
	I mean, not much, but.
	But some.
	Yeah, but obviously not enough for you to go and lie or for her to give her power over you, right?
	No.
	Right.
	So you're not going to end up like her because you're not like her.
	And, you know, some people, what's the Andy Kaufman got lung cancer though he never smoked?
	Some people can get lung cancer even though they don't smoke.
	And it's true that you could end up alone, God forbid, right?
	I mean, some horrible fate befalls your family or whatever, right?
	But that's very unlikely.
	And even if you did, for some reason, end up old and alone, you still have all of the skills of negotiation and win-win, and you're a good-natured and affectionate person.
	And so people will find value having you in their life if they're good people themselves.
	So your mother's fate is not your fate.
	And I would say it's because, and listen, this is a beautiful thing about women, this forgiveness stuff, and this looking for the best.
	And I think it's lovely.
	It's why women are great at raising kids if they have good morals.
	But your mother has made her own fate.
	And at this point, there's nothing that can be done.
	And it probably was the case that nothing could be done even before you were born.
	Because people who reject feedback can't change.
	People who think they're perfect can't change.
	People who can't be criticized can't change.
	People who always have to be right can't change.
	And people who spent decades harming children can't ever be good.
	Ever.
	You know, some guy who's like, let's say they quit, right?
	Some guy's like, well, I started smoking when I was 20.
	I smoked two packs a day.
	Now I'm 70.
	I think I'm going to go and try out for the Olympic running team.
	It's like, no, it's too late.
	You can't.
	You can't.
	And she can't be a good person now at all.
	And so she can't, it can't be fixed.
	I mean, not every door stays open forever and ever.
	Amen.
	And the last thing I'll say, and then obviously your thoughts thought by the call, but the other thing is that, okay, how much time, how many years have you spent on self-knowledge and philosophy and morals and all that kind of stuff?
	Like 11 years with philosophy, but I was in therapy before that, which I think.
	Okay, so let's count all of that.
	Like, obviously not just my show, but like all of the stuff that you did to be where you are, especially based on where you came from.
	Like 15 years.
	15 years.
	Okay, fantastic.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So in 15 years, you can get post-doctoral work in physics.
	So it's important to recognize your own expertise.
	So let's say that you called me up and you said, Steph, oh man, I am an elite post-doctoral researcher in physics.
	I've got two PhDs.
	I've been working at it for 15 years.
	I can't find anyone to discuss physics with.
	What would I say?
	Or if somebody said to you, oh, man, it drives me crazy.
	I keep going to these random groups trying to talk physics.
	And nobody can talk physics with me.
	They just stare at me like they don't know what I'm saying.
	It's driving me crazy.
	And I'm just going to go to another random group.
	I'm going to go to a bird watching group and then a train spotting group.
	And I'm going to talk to them about super advanced post-doctoral double PhD physics.
	That's my plan.
	What would you say?
	Maybe you should find a more niche kind of group, more specific.
	You need to find people on your level who know about physics.
	But it would be an odd question, right?
	Yes.
	You've got 15 years in self-knowledge.
	You cannot connect with the average person because there's this view, right?
	Like, oh, I had a bad childhood.
	That kind of put me in a wheelchair.
	I've done 15 years of rehab.
	Now I can run around with everyone else and I'm just like everyone else, right?
	Look, I can go play baseball because I'm out of my wheelchair and I'm just like everyone else.
	But that's not how self-knowledge works.
	You don't just fix yourself like you had a broken arm and now your goal is to get back to like a functional arm just like everyone else.
	You haven't repaired yourself to the point where you're like other people.
	You have shot past them out of necessity.
	I mean, if you were thrown in prison and somebody said, well, you have to become fluent in Japanese to get out of prison.
	And you can only, and we're also going to use some magical process to take away your knowledge.
	You'll only be able to speak Japanese.
	That's the only way you can get out of prison.
	Well, you get out of prison.
	You can only speak Japanese.
	You can't hang around with everyone else because they don't speak Japanese.
	So you haven't done therapy and self-knowledge to repair yourself so that you're just like everyone else, like a broken arm that gets set.
	You have become an entirely different creature.
	A better, I would argue.
	Yes, for sure.
	And so have some respect.
	Have some respect, young lady.
	Have some respect for the 15 years of incredible work you've put in to be a great person, to be a moral person, to have self-knowledge, to have great relationships, to be a reasonable, philosophical, peaceful parenting, all of this sort of great stuff.
	You are an advanced physicist.
	And I'm not kidding about that.
	That's not like just some odd kind of funny analogy.
	You are an advanced physicist, with the difference being that at least an advanced physicist can talk about non-physics.
	But you are an advanced moralist.
	You are an ethicist.
	You are an expert in virtue and self-knowledge.
	You are not like the majority.
	You're so far off the bell curve, it's virtually flat.
	You cannot connect with the average when you have become the exceptional, particularly in the realm of ethics.
	If you were a physicist, maybe you could talk about the weather or the ballgame.
	I guess you could, right?
	But moral choices infuse absolutely everything that we do.
	And you have nothing in common with people who don't have significant levels of self-knowledge.
	Does your husband is good with self-knowledge?
	Right.
	So that's good.
	How's your mom?
	Sorry, my mom was up to zero.
	All right.
	Negative.
	Negative.
	She would scoured out of other people.
	How about half-sister?
	Negative.
	All right.
	Everyone else in your family, all the lying women and the bamboozled men.
	My niece, she has potential for it, Steph.
	And she's with this really great guy, and they had a great, her boyfriend came from a really great family.
	Like when he was talking to her, like he, when he found out that she was spanked as a child, you know, my niece thought that was normal.
	And she's, hang on, I'm sure he's a great guy, and that's nice.
	But he's still considering marrying into this highly toxic or dysfunctional clan, right?
	Right.
	And if you were to make some move to truly enhance self-knowledge in your niece, what would happen?
	She would, I think she might move to not being as close with her mother, for sure.
	And then what would happen?
	Remember, your enemies get their shoot their shot back.
	How would they react?
	How would they react if they thought you were undermining, threatening, or wrecking their relationship with her relationship with their family, her mother, her father?
	How would they react?
	I mean, I already really nice to him.
	Yeah.
	So now they have power over you again.
	The problem is when you try to help people, everyone else has power over you again.
	They just make up lies about me, right?
	Oh, yeah, yeah, of course.
	And who has more access?
	You or them to her?
	They do, for sure.
	So it would put yourself back in a conflict position where you have no leverage.
	I mean, maybe when she's older, you said she's an adult and so on.
	So whatever, right?
	But just be aware that if you were to try and give her self-knowledge and morals, you would be on a massive collision course with her entire family and extended family who play dirty.
	They don't fight by the rules, right?
	Because they have no problem but lying.
	In fact, they demand it.
	They require it.
	It's a good thing.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	So it's fine if you want to have friends for the most part, then you just have to lower your standards and expect nothing else.
	So wait, talk me through that a little bit.
	What is that?
	Or just lower your standards.
	Lower my standards.
	So if you want to talk physics with people that there's nobody around with double PhDs, then you just have to talk about simpler physics.
	Somebody's got high school physics, maybe, or undergraduate.
	So you just have to lower your standards, which means you have to accept the dysfunction that comes from non-philosophical people, from people who avoid self-knowledge, reject self-knowledge, who act out, who are pompous, who always think they're right.
	Right?
	You bring up with your friend about the question mark autistic kid, and she'd be like, oh, that's been tormenting me too.
	I don't know.
	I don't want to just label it.
	I don't want to pathologize, blah, Like, that would be the honest conversation, right?
	And listen, I completely understand how this would upset you.
	If your kids do this, I mean, let's talk about that more.
	Like, that would be an honest conversation, right?
	As opposed to that instant bullshit chilling effect that you get with people when you step on their toes, right?
	Well, this is just very important to me.
	And if you can't understand that, I'm sad.
	Right.
	Just that kind of half-bullying and threats and coldness and right.
	Like when you point out to the mom group, ah, you know, this single mom thing seems kind of dysfunctional to me.
	And I don't know that that's going to really help the group.
	Well, she's struggling to, you know, just have some sympathy, you know, have some grace, right?
	It's just that pompous moralizing that's just, right?
	That mountain lion could be just, could have anorexia and just might not be hungry, right?
	So you just get this pompous lecturing and people just make themselves right and make you wrong.
	And there's all this implicit blah, blah, blah.
	Like I was talking on X the other day about, you know, if you're if you're an atheist, then morality is subjective.
	So how do you prove that racism is wrong?
	And one guy was like, you know, it's pretty simple, man.
	You just, society should be organized for what has the greatest good in the long run for both individuals and groups.
	It's actually quite simple.
	Now, that's, of course, a complete douchebag statement.
	I mean, that's the least simple thing in the known universe.
	And so coming up with word salad that means nothing, really, and then claiming that it's simple is just the act of a narcissistic douchebag, aggressive, whatever, whatever, right?
	And I mean, what are you going to say?
	So most people, if you bring the truth to them, they'll just attack you and push you away because they're all embedded.
	It's hard for those of us in good relationships to really understand the house of cards that most people live in.
	So if you say, ooh, you know, this single mom seems kind of dysfunctional.
	Here's the evidence.
	Here's what my concerns are, blah, Well, what you're saying is that, oh, you should have judgment about toxic and healthy and dysfunctional relationships.
	But that's all their relationships.
	How are they going to have judgment?
	How?
	How are they going to have judgment about dysfunction when they're married to dysfunctional people?
	They're in bed with dysfunctional family relations.
	Their boss is all dysfunctional.
	Their careers are all a mess.
	and they're all compromised, how are they going to – see, for you, it's just one person.
	For them, it's everyone.
	So the stakes are lower for you than for others, if that makes sense.
	So for you, it's like, yeah, I mean, we should really look at dysfunctional people and try not to have them in our life because for you, it's one single mom in a mom group, right?
	Right.
	But for them, it's everyone.
	For you, it's just removing one.
	Like you're saying, oh, you have a weird mold there.
	You should get it removed.
	What they hear is, you should remove all your skin.
	Right.
	Hey, your appendix is giving you trouble.
	You should probably take it out.
	And your heart and kidneys as well.
	Right.
	For you, it's fixing a problem.
	For them, it's exposing the entire mess of their lives, which they cannot solve.
	And themselves.
	Because if you say to corrupt people, we should get corrupt people out of their lives, they don't even understand the question.
	And I should despawn?
	I can't get myself out of my life.
	What are you talking about?
	So you're not like others, if that makes sense.
	That does make sense.
	That makes a lot of sense.
	Thank you so much, Steph.
	You are very welcome.
	I know you've got a household full of kids and kids, so I obviously have kept you for a long time.
	Is there anything else that you wanted to mention as a whole?
	I mean, great conversation.
	I really do appreciate it.
	And massive respect for what you've done with your life.
	It's amazing and beautiful.
	Thank you so much, Steph.
	And thanks so much for the conversation.
	I probably should run and throw a boob at this baby, but thank you so much.
	I just really appreciate the conversation and this feedback has been very helpful.
	I'm thrilled to have helped, and I hope you'll keep me posted.
	And let's not wait for another couple of years.
	Okay, sounds good.
	All right.
	All the best.
	Take care.
	You do.
	Bye.

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