Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux - 20th Anniversary of Freedomain 2! Twitter/X Space

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Oct. 25, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:57:28

20th Anniversary of Freedomain 2! Twitter/X Space

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	Good evening, my friends.
	It is the 24th of October 2025, 241025.
	And it is my 20th anniversary.
	It was 20 years ago.
	Sergeant Pepper taught the bands to play.
	It was 20 years ago that I got my first article published on Lou Rockwell, The State of Society and Examination of Alternatives.
	And I've not aged a smidge.
	A little teeny tiny bit.
	So anyway, I hope you're doing well.
	I'm happy to chat about...
	Maybe I'll do a whole show this weekend about the last 20 years.
	I don't necessarily need to do it with you if we have people who want to talk.
	If we have people who want to talk, I'm certainly happy to hear.
	I'm here to chat.
	I'm here to listen.
	Thanks to everyone who dropped by this afternoon.
	A very interesting series of chats.
	And let us go with Adam, A-D-A-M.
	If you want to unmute, I'm all ears.
	No, really, I am.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	All right.
	All right.
	Let's try.
	I think we had some this afternoon.
	Recovering nihilist.
	If you wanted to unmute, I'm happy to hear.
	Or are we all stuck on the muty muteness?
	Hello.
	Oh, Peter.
	How about you?
	Sorry about the technical difficulties, Eli.
	Okay.
	So I've requested to speak because I'd like to share with you my discoveries in moral philosophy.
	And I'm so sorry, because you had said this before, but I just wanted to mention, because I can't help but notice it, you sound kind of down.
	I just got a flat effect.
	I have struggled with depression in the past, but that's more or less resolved now.
	Why do you, oops, what did I just do intelligently there?
	Wrong thing.
	Hang on.
	Three, four.
	And why do you think you have a flat effect?
	I think I've I had a sort of habit of repressing my emotions for a very long time to the point where I'd say I sort of stopped having a sort of awareness of it Yeah Awareness of what?
	The emotions or the repressions?
	The emotions.
	And why do you think that you suppressed your emotions?
	I do want to get your thesis.
	I just want to make sure I understand sort of where you're coming from.
	Well, as a child, I think I sort of identified emotionality as like sort of adjacent to abusive behavior and such.
	And why do you think you did?
	Was it because you had very emotional people in your life who were abusive?
	Well, I'd say, like, my theory on this, which is, it's really just, you know, my theory on it.
	So sort of my best guess is that rather than blaming my mother for her behavior, I sort of shifted the blame to her emotions.
	Like, she can't really help it.
	And what was the behavior that was an issue for you?
	Oh, you know, like screaming, like harsh criticism.
	Like emotionally manipulative sort of stuff.
	I'm really sorry to hear that.
	And, you know, for those of you who didn't have a screamer as a mother, now I'm not sure if she went full Banshee shriek, you know, that kind of stuff.
	Like, but for children, I mean, I can only speak for a little boy's experience.
	A screaming mother is just about the most terrifying thing that there is.
	And it's more terrifying than physical violence.
	It's more terrifying than hunger.
	It's more terrifying than homelessness.
	I mean, I remember when I was sort of four or five years old trying to run away from home in the middle of the night.
	And I'm not sure exactly why.
	Maybe it has something to do with just being like realizing that your mother who's in charge of your life is kind of out of control is kind of terrifying.
	And did that accord with your experience?
	Like the screaming, like I'd rather do, I'd rather suffer through anything except that, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yeah, that it I just, you know, there's there's definitely like a feeling of just complete like existential uncertainty that comes with it.
	You don't, yeah, you're like, there's no telling what's going to happen.
	But none of it's good, right?
	None of it's good.
	And there's also a kind of erasure when somebody is and again, I had it as a with my mother, but when somebody is screaming at you to that degree or that intensely, it's like you stop existing or like you turn into a kind of static or like it's like a gunshot in a tree full of birds.
	They all just scatter.
	Like the personality scatters before that level of intense, shrieky aggression.
	In a way, even that physical violence doesn't achieve.
	Because with physical violence, at least your body is vivid in its pain, but the scattering of personality that happens in the face of that kind of female screaming is really alarming.
	It tends to evacuate and hollow people out, particularly, I think, little boys.
	Again, I don't want to tell you your experience, but was it anything like that?
	I mean, it resonates with me.
	I don't know that I fully liked fully internalized or Abyssinium and the experience that does seem to fit.
	And are you in your 20s or 30s or some other decade?
	30, but no.
	Okay.
	All right.
	And when do you think you did kind of the opposite?
	Like if your mother was hysterical and exaggerated in her vocal mannerisms, when do you think you kind of went dead voice on people as a sort of reaction to that, if that's what it was?
	I think I want to say around 10 years old or so.
	Maybe earlier.
	Well, I'd say much earlier, actually.
	I think there's just sort of a self-erasure that comes along with it.
	Well, it's not a self-erasure.
	I mean, it's erasure from others.
	You didn't just wake up one day and decide to dissociate or not live inside your own mind or body.
	It's being driven out, right?
	Right, right.
	Now, did you have a father around?
	Yes.
	And what was the story with your dad?
	I mean, he wasn't the best dad ever.
	and like he didn't, you know, he could have done more to sort of prevent the abuse.
	I don't really know what more to say about it.
	Like, I don't want to try and make excuses for him or something, but I do think he's, you know, a decent person.
	A decent person.
	Okay.
	Was he also aggressed against by your mother or was he an aggressor himself or did it not happen?
	He was also aggressed against.
	Okay, so your mother bullied both you and your father?
	Yes.
	Did you have siblings?
	Yes.
	Where did it go with them?
	You know, more of the same.
	I think my sister suffered some little more physical abuse than I did, I think.
	And from your mother, right?
	Yes.
	And was your father violent or abusive at all?
	No.
	I don't know.
	Not that I recall.
	And are your parents still together?
	No.
	What happened?
	Or when did they split?
	Or die?
	They divorced years ago.
	But after I was an adult.
	And who divorced who?
	My father divorced my mother.
	And do you know why he divorced her or what did he say?
	I mean, they just couldn't get along.
	Well, like, we all knew why.
	You know, it was a long time coming.
	I think he had a bit of a savior complex for her.
	And I think he finally kind of got over that.
	Okay.
	And how old were you when they separated?
	I think about 25.
	Okay.
	So all the kids were out of the house.
	Is that right?
	No, my brother was still living with him.
	Okay.
	My younger brother.
	Was he close to adulthood?
	Oh, yes.
	17 or so.
	Okay.
	And have you talked to your parents about the issues you had with them when you were growing up?
	Yes.
	And how did that go?
	And good for you, by the way, but how did that go?
	How you'd expect.
	I think, you know, I just don't really talk to my mother.
	Like, I've got a decent relationship with my father.
	He took the criticism about as well as anyone could.
	And what was the criticism you had?
	I appreciate your honesty, by the way, but what was the criticism you had?
	Well, I don't know if I want to get into those details.
	I mean, again, don't talk about anything you're not comfortable, but was it sort of along the lines of, you know, you kind of married a crazy screamer and failed to protect us?
	Yeah, yeah.
	And did he ever, did he say why he married her?
	Yeah, I've got a pretty good understanding of, you know, sort of series of events that led to it.
	Because, I mean, she's not someone that a healthy person would choose to marry, is that right?
	Right.
	And so did he marry her because she was pretty or sexy or because he had his own mother who was a screamer and that's all he was used to.
	I mean, there's usually some common domino.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	The latter.
	Yeah, it's he had an abusive borderline mother as well.
	Now, that doesn't explain why he married your mother, though.
	Because you could say, man, man alive, do I ever know how terrible it is to have a screaming woman in the household?
	So the last thing I'd ever want to do is marry a screamer, right?
	I mean, it's the old thing, like, I don't touch alcohol because my father was a drunk, as opposed to I'm a drunk because my father was a drunk, right?
	You can easily react the other way.
	He clearly lacked the self-awareness or the, you know, the awareness, like generally.
	Like, he hadn't, like, it took him, it took him till like not that long ago to finally fully like acknowledge how abusive his own mother was.
	Okay, so he didn't acknowledge that his own mother was a problem and then it reproduced, right?
	Right.
	So, and I'm not disagreeing with you about your father.
	I'm just kind of curious, what is it that you find decent about your father?
	You said he's a decent man.
	No, he's he's not, he wasn't like overtly abusive in any way.
	But that's not the definition of decent.
	Come on, that's not the definition.
	The definition of decent, the definition of decent is not having children with an abusive, violent woman and not being overly abusive yourself.
	That's not decent, right?
	Yeah, well, like, it was just, I'm going to get you started.
	Okay, sorry.
	My apologies.
	I think he has virtuous.
	Sure.
	like he's a, you know, a hardworking man, relatively honorable in most domains.
	Sorry, I didn't want to interrupt you.
	So he works hard and he's relatively honorable?
	Yeah, I would say so.
	I mean, if you had a babysitter, are you a father yourself?
	No.
	No.
	But if you had children and you had a babysitter who screamed at, terrified, and hit your children and you kept hiring her, would you be described as relatively honorable?
	No, that would be pretty stupid.
	Well, it wouldn't be stupid.
	It would be corrupt, right?
	It would be immoral to continue to have a dangerous, violent, screaming, emotionally unstable person in charge of your children, right?
	Yeah.
	Like, he's, you know, I would say he's taken accountability for the role he played in it and has, you know, made amends to my satisfaction.
	And just out of curiosity, and again, don't talk about anything you don't want to.
	What amends has he made?
	Apologies.
	You know, he's helped me out in life.
	You know, that kind of thing.
	I don't know if I want to try and take account of all of it.
	No, that's fine.
	Do you know why?
	I mean, do you want to get married in life?
	Do you want to become a dad?
	Oh, yeah.
	I'm playing a lot.
	Okay.
	I mean, you're 35, right?
	So time's ticking away.
	Pushing it a little bit.
	I'm getting there.
	Are you dating?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And how long have you been dating, I guess, your girlfriend for?
	Oh, see, since February.
	Okay.
	And is she roughly your age or younger?
	She's 25.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	And are you planning?
	I mean, obviously, you don't have to announce anything, but it's the general idea to move towards marriage, if possible, with this woman.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Good, good.
	All right.
	Okay, fantastic.
	All right.
	So I appreciate that backstory.
	And thank you for indulging me.
	And I'm all ears about your moral theories.
	All right.
	So, like, you know, I assert that virtue must be like emergent from a methodology.
	Would you agree with that?
	Virtue must be emergent as a methodology?
	No.
	Virtue, like, let's put it.
	Let me put it this way.
	No, no, no.
	I just want to know.
	I'm not trying to, I don't need a different sentence.
	I just didn't quite understand the sentence you had.
	Virtue is emergent.
	And what was its relate?
	What's the emergence property relative to the methodology?
	Virtue emerges from a methodology.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Like, if you don't mind, I'd like to address the isot problem first.
	So the isot problem, I think, has been commonly misconstrued as a proof that morality is not objective.
	And it's definitely not.
	Like, neither Hume nor Kant described it as such.
	I think it was a misdirect by postmodernists.
	Sorry, but you know that I assert that morality is objective, right?
	Yes, and I would assert that morality is objective too.
	Okay, sorry, go ahead.
	So like the isot problem describes a limitation of logical deduction, of first principles, logical deduction.
	It doesn't describe a limitation of moral objectivity.
	Like it, it describes that like you cannot derive an ought from an is.
	It means you can't deduce from reality what ought be.
	Like that's that's a limitation of deduction, not a limitation of the ability to make ought statements.
	You know, we can still derive oughts or imperatives from, you know, inductive induction and data and research, experimentation, as both human can't describe.
	Well, sorry, the other thing, I just wanted to supplement that and to say that if oughts followed sequentially from is, we would lose our free will.
	The ought is primarily because it's a choice.
	You can choose to be moral.
	You can choose to think, you can choose to live.
	You can choose to die.
	You can choose to be peaceful.
	You can choose to be violent.
	And so free will is that there aren't dominoes that dictate our behavior.
	And so if oughts came from is, we wouldn't have free will.
	We would just be another mechanistic object in the universe.
	So the fact that there is morality means that there are preferred states.
	The fact that there are preferred states means they have to be chosen, which means there is no cascade or domino of oughts from existence.
	But sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
	And I would say that morality, it's necessarily difficult.
	You know, it can't be like simply reduced to a like a like a set of like rules to follow in like all circumstances and such.
	Well, hang on.
	Virtue is limitless.
	Sorry to interrupt.
	So, but the problem is that if morality is difficult and complicated, then what do you do with IQ 90 or 85 people?
	And what do you do with children?
	I mean, you probably just give them like, you know, specific rules and guidelines within which to live, right?
	Well, but why should they believe them if they don't understand them?
	Well, like, we'll have, you know, philosophically sound arguments.
	No, but you said, sorry, and maybe I misunderstood.
	You said morality is difficult.
	But if morality is difficult, we can't expect children or the less intelligent to follow them.
	Like, if in order to understand morality, you had to be conversant with vector calculus or quantum mechanics or something like that, then we couldn't teach morality to children and we couldn't teach it to the unintelligent or the less intelligent.
	I mean, by it difficult, I mean, there's sort of no ceiling on it.
	Not that the floor is really high.
	Virtue is a limitless pursuit, wouldn't you say?
	I don't really know what that means.
	Sorry.
	Like it's you never finish, right?
	Like you never like you never got it all figured out.
	Like the jobs.
	The imperative to be more virtuous, it never goes away.
	And it's it like and especially like in this specific, it can be like difficult to apply moral principles.
	Yeah.
	Well, okay, so there are edge cases for sure, but the basics of morality, right?
	The opposition to rape, theft, assault, and murder should be simple enough to explain to children and the less intelligent.
	Absolutely.
	Okay, got it.
	All right.
	So I just wanted to make sure.
	So if you're talking about sort of positive virtues, edge cases, and so on, there are certainly challenges.
	But in terms of teaching a sort of three or four or five-year-old about basic morals, it should be possible.
	And for people who are less, I mean, there's going to be a certain threshold by which, like, I don't know, IQ 70, like there's going to be a certain threshold under which people are just not morally responsible because they don't have the brain capacity to compare proposed actions to any kind of ideal standards.
	But for the majority of people, it should be explainable when they're very young.
	And it should be, you know, people with a low IQ should be able to, you should be able to explain morality, basic morality to them.
	Right.
	Okay, so sorry, guys.
	So I posit the existence of a methodology which all virtuous people share in common.
	And therefore, virtue is that which emerges from that methodology.
	But that's circular, right?
	Yeah, it is.
	Okay.
	So don't do circular, right?
	Because circular is not valid, right?
	So if you say there's a methodology for morality that all moral people follow, it's like, but you haven't established morality.
	So how would you know that people are moral who follow it, right?
	And so you have to establish morality and then compare people's actions to that moral standard.
	But you can't say all the people who were already good follow the same methodology of my proof of morality because that's begging the question, right?
	That's assuming that people are good when you're still trying to establish what goodness is.
	Yeah, well, like I'm positing the existence of this methodology, right?
	I don't know the precise nature of it.
	Okay, so let's talk about...
	Let's talk about the methodology.
	What's your methodology for establishing virtue?
	I don't have that yet.
	That's what I was saying.
	It's like, I don't know the precise methodology that makes people virtuous versus unvirtuous.
	Well, hang on.
	There's nothing that makes people virtuous because that would be to force them or something like that.
	By which people are virtuous.
	No, I think, sorry to be annoying.
	I think you want to say something like, I don't know the methodology by which we establish and prove virtue or what virtue is.
	Or determine it?
	Yeah, to decide and define virtue.
	But like, I'm talking about the methodology by which people make their choices and by which people make virtuous choices.
	Yeah, so there has to be a standard by which you would judge whether a proposed action was virtuous or evil.
	No, look, like this is sort of the basis for my theory as a whole.
	Like I don't yet The precise nature of this methodology.
	Okay, so I was saying I don't really know what we've established so far other than you need a standard by which to determine good and evil.
	Now, I've written a book, I guess, close to 20 years ago called Universally Preferable Behavior, a rational.
	I am familiar.
	Sorry, Don.
	Yeah, I'm not.
	You understand it's a live stream, right?
	So I'm not just talking to you, right?
	All right, right.
	Thank you.
	Okay.
	So I have written a book called Universally Preferable Behavior, a Rational Proof of Secular Ethics that is available at freedomain.com slash books.
	It's free.
	And by the way, Duru, thank you for subscribing.
	Tips and donations for my 20th anniversary are very gratefully and humbly and appreciatively accepted at freedomain.com slash donate.
	You can, of course, also subscribe at freedomain.com slash donate, and then you get access to hundreds of podcasts, private live streams, history of the French Revolution.
	You get the 22-part introduction, a history of philosophers series, and so on.
	It's really, really great stuff.
	And also, I'm releasing the audio book of my new book to donors first.
	So freedomain.com slash donate.
	Okay, so, and also if you want to get a shortened version of my theory on ethics, you can look at the last third of my book, Essential Philosophy at essentialphilosophy.com.
	And so, sorry, I appreciate your comment, but I'm not really sure what we're doing other than saying there should be a methodology that you haven't worked out for virtue.
	Right.
	Right.
	So, so, so, what are, what are we doing here if you're saying, I think I think there should be a methodology for virtue, but I don't have one and I don't agree with yours.
	Oh, no, I didn't say I don't.
	I agree with yours.
	Then, what are we doing here?
	I mean, do you agree with you, PB?
	Okay, so you got to let me let me finish my sentences, please, please.
	Do you disagree with my formulation, say, as to why theft can never be universally preferable behavior?
	No, not at all.
	Okay.
	So, that's good.
	Is there anything else that you wanted to mention?
	I've discovered like four prerequisites to virtue, like as part of determining this methodology for like what that virtue comes from.
	And I think they have great utility.
	If you're interested, I'm not sure what you're saying.
	You don't have a methodology for determining virtue, but you have prerequisites for virtue.
	It's a hypothetical.
	I don't think it's possible without great iteration or okay.
	So, I don't know.
	I don't know if you communicate.
	Do you think that you make a lot of sense from the outside?
	I'm not saying you're crazy or anything like that, but from the outside, do you think I know what you're talking about?
	Or, you know, we've been talking.
	Now, of course, I took up a lot of the half hour, 20 minutes we've been talking with questions about your history, which I appreciate, but I'm no further along in understanding.
	And I do have to, you know, I've got people who want to call.
	I've got people who are listening live.
	I've got people who've been listening later.
	So, I'm not sure what it is that you want to get across from me at this point.
	Well, these four prerequisites to virtue, I think it's valuable.
	But you don't have a method.
	Hang on, but you don't.
	I mean, what is virtue?
	You don't know.
	So, how can you have a prerequisite for us?
	Hang on.
	Again, you got to let me finish.
	How do you have prerequisites for something you don't have a methodology for?
	These are axioms.
	I believe these are self-evident.
	They're sort of by definition necessary for virtue.
	Okay, so give me the first one and maybe I can understand.
	Humility is the first prerequisite.
	Like, you know, unless you believe perhaps that, you know, people are born virtuous or that they have some inherent virtue.
	Like being virtuous or trying to be more virtuous is a necessary component.
	And sorry, I don't know that I'm putting this that well.
	Okay.
	So humility is humility is a prerequisite for virtue and what else?
	Accountability.
	Accountability.
	Okay.
	And what else?
	Freedom.
	Freedom.
	And ability.
	Okay.
	I mean, I don't have any particular arguments with that.
	So is there anything else that you wanted to mention?
	I believe these have great utility.
	You know, I can make sort of my arguments for each of them, but also like, you know, they can be applied to politics, to, you know, interpersonal relationships.
	Like, you know, you can then make the argument and say that anyone who attempts to diminish freedom is also attempting to diminish virtue.
	Yes.
	Certainly anyone.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	And anyone who's trying to diminish, you know, ability or is demonstrating a lack of humility by attempting to take like the moral high ground over other people with when it's clearly unearned is is clearly demonstrating like a lack of virtue or a virtue reductive force in the world.
	All right.
	Anything else?
	I do have a new formulation of rational values.
	No, I'm so sorry.
	I can't.
	I can't.
	We can talk about this another time, but I do appreciate it.
	And I would also say, look, just as a whole, just as a whole, like if you want to communicate about philosophy, reason, and virtue to the world, which I think is wonderful, you got to work on your presentation.
	You have to work on your presentation.
	You have to be relatively engaged.
	You have to define your terms.
	A couple of jokes won't help, won't hurt, sorry.
	And you have to be sort of warm and you have to work on your vocal presentation because people don't really want to do too much.
	And the more you have great ideas, the more you should work on how well you present them, right?
	If you've got a great movie, you've got to create a great trailer, right?
	If you have a great album, you've got to release the best song first.
	And so when it comes to communicating, I hate to be rude to the prior caller, obviously cares about this stuff.
	But this sort of soul-sucking droning is just not going to be helpful in getting philosophy across to people because people have to want to listen, which means they've got to know what it is that you're talking about.
	And if after 15 minutes, he has no methodology and there's just some positive things to do with, yeah, humility is a good, it's a virtue.
	Sure.
	Humility is nice, but I'm not sure how that's particularly groundbreaking in the realm of philosophy.
	All right.
	Let us move on to David.
	Or if they say, in France, David.
	If you want to unmute, I'm happy to hear.
	Hey, Steph.
	So, yeah, there's a fair amount of gap between when, anyway.
	Yeah, yeah.
	So to go back to, so we're talking about virtue tonight.
	Yeah, that's right.
	It is very important to be in terms of captivating an audience, humor and succinct sentences on topic really go a long way.
	And one of my favorite things, even though, believe it or not, you know, the topic we were discussing earlier, one of my favorite things to do is to coach.
	And I find virtuous behavior to instill it, especially in children.
	What I've noticed is, you know, there's basically two ways to get attention.
	Either you do something really ridiculous, right?
	Like the class clown, so to speak, to get everybody's attention, or you can do something really, really great.
	And I think that it is very important to always, you know, like we're coaching children to be putting them in challenging positions and giving them the tools they need to succeed and constantly putting that in front of them.
	And that is one way of instilling and propagating virtuous behavior, which, you know, I'm going to say is good, which would be behavior that doesn't take anything away from anybody else.
	And to use a phrase you used earlier, to produce excess resources, right?
	To produce more than what you need and make that usable and make that a benefit for yourself or the group.
	Yeah.
	And what sort of coaching have you done?
	What sort of coaching have you done?
	I taught taekwondo for a number of years and I also coached soccer too.
	But it's tough to it's it's tough to justify the coaching without getting paid.
	And I know a lot of people might have an issue with that.
	But it's what, four hours a week, you know, one game and a practice or two a week.
	And the time of that plus the gas, right?
	So, but that's the type of coaching that I did.
	As well, I have three children that I stayed at home with until they were able to, the youngest was able to go into kindergarten.
	Very nice, very nice.
	Yeah, I would like to see kids get more involved in self-organized sports as well.
	I think one of the problems why people are so fragile and so triggered and so on is they haven't learned how to wrestle with the desire to win and the gracious recognition that often you don't, right?
	I mean, so I think it would be great if people had kids had more self-organized sports.
	They enforce their own rules and then they'd be less likely to believe that you need this sort of central political hierarchy to have any rules in society, that, you know, self-enforcement of rules is eminently possible.
	And if children can do it, adults can do it as well.
	All right.
	So anything else you wanted to mention?
	The honor system, the honor system really is, the honor system really is special.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	All right.
	Well, thank you very much.
	I appreciate your call.
	And of course, I certainly appreciate the fact that you stayed home with your kids when they were very young.
	That is, I mean, you can't get that time back.
	And is it ever fantastic to be able to look back on all of that?
	All right.
	Sam, are you Sam alone or Sam alone?
	What is on your mind, my friend?
	How can I, or philosophy or reason help you best tonight?
	You will need to unmute.
	Going once, going twice.
	Are you with?
	Are you with?
	I think we are not.
	All right.
	Kerry.
	Okay, what's on your mind?
	If you'd like to unmute, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
	Hello?
	Hello.
	Hello?
	Yes, I'm talking now.
	I'm not sure if you can hear me.
	Hello, hello.
	Check your output.
	Yes.
	Can you hear me?
	Can you hear me?
	I think she is having some technical challenges.
	All right.
	Are you muted?
	No, she's not muted.
	No, sorry.
	I muted you there.
	Hang on.
	Can you hear me?
	Yes, I can hear you.
	Yes.
	Yes, I can hear you.
	All right.
	We're going to have to go with the man they called Brian.
	Brian, if you would like to unmute.
	I'm here.
	I'm not sure what happened.
	Well, can you hear you?
	Well, if you can't hear me, I can't do the show with you.
	So you do need to be able to hear me.
	Yes, Brian, go ahead.
	Holy cow.
	I'll call back in.
	I'm sorry.
	I don't know what's happening.
	All right.
	In between that.
	Sorry, Brian.
	Go ahead.
	Hey, really nice to talk to you.
	I've been listening for a long time, so this is kind of cool.
	Yeah, so I just kind of have a weird dilemma that maybe you can help guide me with.
	Is that okay?
	I love weird dilemmas.
	All right, sweet.
	All right.
	So.
	Oh, man.
	All right.
	So I recently left my job that I had been working for 12 years in pursuit of like working in the, as an electrician doing an apprenticeship.
	And I, well, let me preface this.
	I'm married.
	I'm 36.
	I was working previously in a job that I really was unhappy with.
	I was making a modest amount of money, very comfortable.
	My wife also works.
	She makes, she's actually the breadwinner at the moment.
	She's making a lot of money.
	But I'm kind of in a spot where I've got a little bit of laps in between my next step in this new career path.
	And I'm kind of, I don't know.
	I kind of feel it's been like a week that I've been without this job, and I'm starting to feel like a piece of crap.
	Okay, so let me make sure.
	So, the electrician stuff is that in the past or to come?
	Like just a future endeavor.
	A future endeavor.
	Okay.
	So, when are you starting that?
	If there's a date?
	So, I immediately got everything as far as like my application in and whatnot.
	And then there's going to be an aptitude test that doesn't start out until December, which is a little bit further out.
	I did the grand taboo of quitting without a job lined up already, I guess.
	However, that's fine if you have savings.
	Oh, yes, most definitely.
	So, I'm in that regard.
	I'm not concerned.
	Okay.
	But still, I don't know.
	Like, my wife is kind of like, yeah, just like kind of relax and whatnot and take a little hiatus.
	But I don't know.
	At first, I was excited about it, like a little bit of time off, but now I'm just kind of like, oh man, like, I don't know.
	I feel kind of worthless.
	I'm just kind of sitting around at home and, you know, I'll go to the gym and whatnot, but I don't know.
	It's kind of pretty lame.
	Got to keep yourself pretty.
	Do you have kids?
	No, which is funny.
	That kind of plays into it.
	I'm 36.
	My wife is 27.
	We've been married going on two years now.
	My previous job, I don't want to go into too much detail, but I was basically managing a kitchen, right?
	And there were a lot of nights where my schedule was just kind of all over the place.
	And that was kind of part of the deal was I've got to transition to a career to where, you know, I can be home instead of coming home at like one, two in the morning, stuff like that.
	It's not ideal, right?
	So, and, you know, we obviously want to have, you know, a family and start having kids.
	And I think that this was one of my major driving factors was getting out of that career because I was kind of complacent because I was making enough money to wear like it's fine or whatever, but the schedule was just kind of awful.
	Yeah, I mean, restaurants are insane.
	And people in restaurants are generally insane, unless they're, you know, very young.
	No, they are.
	I mean, there's a lot of drugs, a lot of promiscuity, a lot of really alternative lifestyles, to put it mildly.
	I mean, I worked in restaurants in my teens and early 20s, and they're insane.
	They're nuts.
	You know, in general, right?
	So, and because like most of the sort of entertainment or service industries, you're working when everyone else is playing and you're sleeping when everyone else is working.
	So you kind of end up in this other dimension, like you're in the same world, but it's the opposite world and it's just a kind of wild mind space.
	But at least that was my experience.
	So, okay, so when did you, how long were you off work before you started feeling bad?
	Well, I guess it's what today is the 23rd, right?
	24th.
	24.
	You already have work.
	You don't even know what day it is.
	Right.
	Wild.
	I'd say maybe about like four days into it.
	Like, I've just kind of, I don't know, because I don't know.
	Okay, so let's, let's, let's do a quick, a quick surgical strike on your history.
	Are you ready?
	Yeah, later on.
	Okay.
	Was your mother a spendthrift?
	Yes.
	How did I know that?
	You know it all.
	How did I know that your mother was a spendthrift?
	Because I'm scared I'm going to run out of my money.
	There you go.
	And how did your father handle your mother spending too much money?
	Work, work, work, work, work.
	And if your father had not worked and your mother had not restrained her spending, what would have happened?
	We'd be under the bridge.
	There you go.
	So not super complicated, right?
	I mean, not easy to deal with, but the causality is fairly clear, right?
	Right.
	Have you, I mean, how much did your father work as a whole?
	Quite a lot.
	He owned his own, like, he was a contractor, owned his own business.
	And it would kind of bleed over a whole lot of time and into the weekends and whatnot.
	And I'd get to go hang out and doing air quotes with my dad, but we'd be going to the office or whatever and stuff like that.
	How did your parents get along?
	I mean, they're still together.
	They're happily married.
	I'd say I'd say they're a lot more chill today.
	But I mean, yeah, I mean, there were definitely fights, but I mean, not like anything crazy, nothing abusive or anything like that.
	Verbally, perhaps, but not physical.
	Verbally, like yelling, name-calling?
	More so just raised voices, stuff like that.
	And how often do they have conflicts at the moment?
	I mean, just I don't know, maybe once a week.
	Maybe.
	I'm not entirely sure.
	Like, it wasn't.
	What do you mean?
	They yell at each other once a week?
	Yeah, maybe.
	I don't know.
	I'm trying to.
	I mean, I know you don't know.
	It's like you have a drone in their house.
	It's broadcasting, but your guess is, right?
	So what the hell are they doing?
	How long have they, how many years have they been married?
	To this day, no, they're not.
	They don't fight at all.
	I mean, back in the day.
	Yeah, this is what I'm trying to recall from my childhood.
	Okay, got it, got it.
	Okay, so now they don't fight, but back in the day.
	Yeah, no, no, no.
	So they're happy, grandkids.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so when you were growing up, how much of a spendthrift was your mother?
	In other words, did she spend 10% more than she should have or 50% or 100% or more?
	How much was she a spendthrift?
	I mean, we were never like in spots where I never had anything that I, I was never in need for anything, but let's just say she had a new British car that was constantly in the shop and money didn't seem to be a problem for that.
	Oh, she had like a Jaguar or something?
	The worst car on earth.
	Other name for his Land Rover, I believe.
	Okay, so she had an expensive car that was constantly breaking down.
	Did you guys have a bigger house than you could easily afford?
	Or were there other things that were like vacations or other things that were expensive?
	Amazon trucks parked in the driveway, anything like that?
	Relatively, I mean, we grew up in a nice part of town, nice suburban house.
	The trips and everything, I mean, everything was, I'd say we were living a lot bigger earlier on.
	And then maybe, maybe in high school, everything started to kind of slow down.
	I think that kind of reflected with the economy and whatnot as well.
	But I mean, nothing, I don't know, nothing too crazy.
	I mean, we used to take a lot of trips when we were younger and whatnot, but someone within within means, I guess.
	And did your father have a lot of anxiety about money and work and paying the bills?
	Okay.
	What's the background noise there?
	Is there anything you can do to control that?
	yeah my ball is um is he anxious about money uh I mean, yeah, I guess it's kind of always somewhat front of mind.
	We also had to try to avoid being like super, like it's pretty anonymous.
	I don't know.
	I had an older sister that went through a whole lot of stuff.
	And in order to try to, from what I know, I haven't been told all the details about it, but had to go to a bunch of like rehab and stuff to Arizona and like spending in the hundreds of thousands of dollars for all this type of stuff.
	And to no avail or whatever.
	So she was a drug addict?
	I think she had an eating disorder.
	Oh, she had an eating disorder.
	Yeah.
	And there was a lot of stuff going on with that.
	And I think that caused a lot of stress, I guess, within the household.
	Oh, yeah, no kidding.
	And eating disorders are notoriously tough to resolve.
	And so she still has an eating disorder, is that right?
	No, she's 100%, you know, through the grace of God, you know, come on.
	Oh, sorry.
	I thought you said to no about the whole turnaround.
	Oh, my, yeah.
	Sorry, my vocabulary is not the best.
	Oh, we're going to be able to do that.
	I'm going to be an electrician after.
	Yeah.
	She's doing great.
	She's got kids and everything.
	Okay.
	Loving husband.
	Okay.
	And do you have any idea where that may have come from?
	Not particularly, no.
	Okay.
	Is your mother a perfectionist?
	Maybe.
	I don't, not really.
	Okay.
	Does your mother have any obsessive-compulsive disorders?
	She used to be just like real freaked out about like safety and all that kind of stuff, I guess, but like not, she's not like, doesn't have to like step over cracks or anything crazy like that.
	Does your mother, how overly, oh, sorry, how focused is she on external approval status or validation?
	I'd say growing up more so than she is now.
	Well, I mean, we can only deal with the origin of your sister's eating disorder, so we can only deal with how things were back then.
	Okay.
	So if your mother was asked, what is the primary value that you provide to your family or provided to your family when your kid's growing up?
	What would she say?
	She was a stay-at-home mother that provided for all of us.
	Well, no, no.
	Hang on, hang on, hang on.
	Your father provided for you.
	So what did your, and I'm not saying she didn't do anything.
	I'm just curious, what would she say was the primary benefit that she gave as the stay-at-home mom?
	Raised the family in a loving manner.
	Okay.
	in what and I'm not disagreeing with you but in what way would you say she was loving and wise and helpful and a good mother um she was very no she's always there and No, that's, come on.
	Let's not, let's not do Hallmark card nonsense, okay?
	It's always there.
	You know, I've got a camera in my studio that's always there, right?
	So, okay, let me ask you this.
	What moral lessons did your mother teach you that you still find a value to this day?
	She's very religious.
	That's not what I'm asking.
	Right.
	Even if we don't say moral, what life lessons, what ways of understanding the world, or being successful, interacting with people, or making plans, or what wisdom did she impart to you as a kid that you still find a value to this day?
	Yeah.
	Thank you.
	Just, you know, like, I don't know, like, the only reason I bring up the religious aspect of it would be, you know, in regards to just kind of living in that way, like kind of like the classic, like, you know, treat others as you want to be treated, like all that kind of, like, not to sound monotonous and, you know, whatever.
	Okay, but, but there are specific life situations or circumstances that children face, right?
	You're not a parent as yet.
	I hope you will be, but your children go through specific issues and challenges, right?
	When they start a job, there may be conflicts with the boss or a co-worker, right?
	They date.
	So your children go through specific issues, or if you have a friend when you're very little who maybe is a bit too aggressive or kind of non-reciprocal or things that you have that are challenges as a kid.
	So how did your mother help you resolve specific challenges you had as a kid by providing you wisdom or lessons that you carry into adulthood?
	uh that's a really good question uh I've never put much thought to it, you know, other than.
	Okay, let me ask you this because I feel that the teeth extraction is as painful for me as it is for you.
	Okay.
	Let me ask it to you this way.
	Tell me about a problem you had as a kid that you were eager to talk about with your mom and get her wisdom and feedback.
	uh yeah i think we're pulling teeth here uh I don't know.
	Nothing is, I don't know.
	Maybe let me ask you this.
	Let me ask you this.
	Because again, I don't want you to turn yourself inside out.
	I don't need to see a spleen.
	So let me ask you this.
	Tell me about a time you had a problem as a kid and went to your mother for help and what happened.
	Right.
	I guess growing up was just dying here.
	I'm just trying to think like, all right.
	Okay, it shouldn't be hard.
	It shouldn't be hard to think about.
	Yeah.
	So the general answer is you didn't go to your mom for help.
	She didn't help you out with problems when you were a kid.
	So she didn't really parent very much.
	I mean, she fed you.
	She maybe played some board games with you.
	She read you stories and stuff like that.
	But that's kind of bullshit when it comes to parenting.
	Parenting is your children have challenges in life, as we all do.
	You sit down and help them work through those challenges with youthful principles to carry them through life.
	That's parenting.
	That's what you do.
	That's the whole point.
	I mean, the whole point of going to engineering school is you learn principles of engineering that can carry you through your entire career, right?
	You don't just hang around the engineering building and play checkers, right?
	Oh, the university took good care of me.
	Did they teach you anything?
	No, but I had a buffet.
	There was a cafeteria.
	And I had a place to sleep.
	It's like, but did you learn anything?
	No, parenting is about teaching children useful, actionable principles, hopefully moral ones that they can use to navigate, progress, and be successful over the course of their lives.
	Did your mother provide that?
	Yeah.
	I mean, yeah, no, I get what you're saying 100%.
	I just don't just trying to, I don't know, I guess there's nothing that, you know, is particularly impactful in that regard that I can just remember anything.
	Okay, that's just me particularly impactful.
	I mean, I can read between the lines.
	Okay, what about your father?
	Did you find when you had a problem in life, in school, with a friend when you were little, with girlfriends, peer pressure, drugs, alcohol, drinking, sex, all of the stuff that you have to navigate as a teenager, did you go to dad and say, Dad, bro, I got a big problem.
	I don't know how to handle it.
	Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
	And he gave you really helpful, useful, practical advice that carries you through to today.
	Yes.
	You know, okay.
	So I don't know.
	I want to say being, I'm one of three.
	I kind of got kind of just, I don't want to say I raised myself up on bush because no, like obviously that wasn't the case.
	But like sitting down and getting like the nice lessons.
	I mean, I guess let's say in school when I was struggling as a kid, I guess once I got into maybe fifth, sixth grade or whatever, and my math was, you know, struggling and whatnot, I'd be falling asleep in quite a bit.
	Tutoring doesn't count.
	Right.
	I was getting tutoring and all that.
	But like the next step was going to a psychiatrist and getting out of, basically.
	Please tell me, please tell me.
	Please tell me that the sum total of your father's help is not nuking you with SSRIs.
	No, I mean, no, but the, I don't know, just like your typical, you know, you got to, you know, stay out for yourself, you know, be, you know, you got to make a man of yourself and whatnot.
	What does that mean?
	Blah, blah, blah.
	What does that mean in practical terms?
	I mean, that's like a nutritionist saying, well, eat healthy.
	It's like, okay, but what does that mean in practical terms, right?
	Right.
	No, you're spot on.
	So you were largely untutored.
	By other people, like paid for a tutor and all that kind of stuff.
	No, no.
	I mean, sorry, I didn't mean that you never received.
	I mean, you were not raised with wisdom and problem-solving techniques or ideas.
	I mean, yeah, I guess.
	I don't know.
	I feel like I'm on the spot and I don't know how to answer that.
	Well, no, there's no trick here.
	I'm not trying to.
	I'm not trying to chick you into anything.
	I mean, if you'd have said, oh, here are the three things that mom helped me with, I would be like, yeah, great.
	So I can tell you, I can always tell the people who had to raise themselves.
	Do you know why?
	How's that?
	Because you're carrying a big fucking burden.
	The way you talk and the way you, oh, you know, you're a little flat.
	And again, I know it's like this is not your job to talk in this semi-public forum and all of that.
	But the people who've had to raise themselves, the people who've had to invent every facet of how they deal with the world with no tutoring and no wisdom and no knowledge transfer from the eldest generation, y'all are dragging bodies and bricks and culverts behind you because it's too much of a burden.
	It's too much of a burden to have to try and invent moral, practical, wise life lessons for yourself when you're five or ten or fifteen.
	That's wretched.
	It's absolutely wretched.
	It'd be like, it'd be like, my kid comes to me and says, Dad, I want a computer.
	And I'm like, okay, here's a bag of sand.
	How exhausting it would be to try and make a computer from a bag of sand.
	Dad, I really, I need to learn how to write letters.
	Yes.
	Thank you.
	Here's a tree.
	And here's a shovel.
	I think there's lead underground.
	Maybe you can make yourself a pencil.
	It's a burden.
	And it makes you not look forward to parenting.
	Because the question is, and this is what I'm trying to carve and differentiate for you, right?
	And what is parenting?
	Parenting is the development and inculcation of moral knowledge for your children.
	Here's what's good and bad.
	Here's what's right and wrong.
	Here's how to productively negotiate and navigate your way through life so that your kids get wisdom.
	Now, you don't need money for that.
	People talk, oh, the kids who inherit a bunch of money.
	It's like, I don't care about the money.
	I care about the wisdom.
	Because without the wisdom, it's almost impossible to get the money.
	And even if you get it, you'll probably lose it.
	But with the wisdom, it's very easy to succeed.
	So when you become, you listen to me, God help you.
	God help you, man.
	You're doomed.
	So you listen to me.
	You become a parent.
	What's going to happen is you're going to realize exactly how deficient your parents were in raising you because you're going to start teaching your kids moral lessons.
	And your kids are going to come home.
	Oh, I had this conflict at the playground.
	Oh, this kid was this and I was the mean.
	And blah, blah.
	You're going to sit down, listen to them, and give them feedback and so on.
	And you're going to be like, holy shyster balls, Batman.
	Where was this when I was growing up?
	Why did I have to do it all alone?
	Why I have to figure out every fucking thing all by myself?
	That's what my mother used to say to me.
	You raised yourself.
	You did it all by yourself.
	You raised yourself.
	It's a burden.
	You have to figure out what's right, what's wrong, what's appropriate, what's inappropriate, what's assertiveness, what's aggression.
	What does standing up for yourself mean without being a jerk?
	How do you negotiate for win-win situations?
	How do you deal with social pressures?
	How do you deal with temptation?
	How do you deal with anger?
	How do you deal with lust?
	How do you deal with the desire for the unearned?
	But these are all rich and deep and complex questions.
	And your mother, as a Christian, a church-going Christian, has absolutely zero excuse for not sitting you down and dealing with these issues with you on a regular basis because these are all foundational to Christianity.
	Like absolutely found everything that I'm talking about is foundational.
	It's in the Bible.
	It's foundational to Christianity.
	So what value to you as a child did your mother provide?
	Wasn't wisdom, at least not much.
	Wasn't virtue, wasn't life lessons, wasn't being a great person to talk to if you had problems.
	What value, and we'll get to your dad in a sec, but what value did your mother provide when you were a child?
	Everybody's got to ask these questions.
	Uh, unconditional love.
	Like she is extremely loving and like very much.
	You love someone while not helping them with life's problems.
	Let's say you go to the ER and oh, Bob over there is the best doctor.
	And you go over and he just, he's playing candy crush and doesn't help you.
	Or he gives you a snack.
	Is he a good doctor?
	Is he helping you?
	Right.
	Love has to do with inculcating virtue in people and giving them wisdom and helping them out and so on, right?
	Now, why does a mother not provide wisdom to her children?
	There's really only two reasons.
	Go.
	You're a smart guy.
	What you got?
	Why does she not provide wisdom to her children?
	Because lack thereof.
	No.
	No, no, yeah.
	Number one, she doesn't have it.
	Okay.
	Why have I not taught Japanese to my daughter?
	Because I don't speak Japanese, right?
	Other than a little bit of dabba varigato, Mr. Robato, right?
	So I can't teach my daughter Japanese because I don't know Japanese.
	And somebody who lacks wisdom can't teach wisdom, right?
	All right.
	So do you think that's it, that your mother doesn't have wisdom?
	I mean, she's not a.
	She's very sweet.
	No, all right.
	I don't know.
	I mean, I don't want to be rude to my mother.
	She's not.
	No, she does not have a whole lot of wisdom.
	Well, if she didn't have a lot of wisdom, she would have imparted some to you.
	Let's say she's only 50% wise.
	Maybe she could only help you with half your problems or all of your problems half as well as she could have, but you got zero, as far as I could remember.
	So either somebody doesn't have wisdom or they have wisdom, but they don't care about you enough or it's not important to them or anything like that.
	Now, what does the Bible say about imparting wisdom to children?
	That you should.
	You must?
	Yes.
	You must spare the rod, spoil the child, the rod being the shepherd's guide of instruction, right?
	You must, you must impart moral wisdom to your children, or the devil will take their souls to hell forever.
	Like it's pretty, it's pretty high-stakes poker, right?
	So why wouldn't, and your mother went to church, she read the Bible, she had access to moral wisdom, why wouldn't she transfer that to her children?
	Well, perhaps I misspoke when I don't know.
	No, no, listen.
	If you've got an, if you've got something that you remember now, I'm not trying to, this is not a one-way court or anything like that.
	I mean, if there's something that you remember, I'm happy to hear it.
	Sure.
	I mean, as far as, I don't know, when it came across first is like what moral lessons and everything I was trying to get to, yes, she's religious and, you know, like a lot of her teachings and everything kind of came through through that angle.
	A lot of biblical teaching and whatnot.
	And I don't know if that counts with this or not.
	It counts.
	Hang on, sorry.
	It counts if you go to your mother for help when you face the inevitable challenges of life, both as a child, as a teenager, in your 20s, in your 30s.
	Do you go to your mother and say, I would really like to get your wisdom and counsel on this issue?
	I would say as a child, yes.
	Because I did ask you earlier.
	I'm not trying to kick on you.
	I asked you earlier what you went to with your mother as a problem with a child, and you couldn't remember anything, which again, I mean, it would either be a lot, in which case it's hard to differentiate, but if it wasn't much, you'd remember the instances where you did, right?
	Right.
	Okay, so we don't have to, I'm not trying to throw your mom under the bus here, right?
	So I'm just pointing out a deficiency because I want you to know why you feel bad.
	Okay.
	So are you.
	How long have you, how long have you been with your partner?
	I've been with my now wife about six years.
	Six years.
	Okay.
	And does she work?
	She does.
	Okay.
	What value did your father provide to the family outside Income with income comes stability.
	No, no.
	No, no, outside of income.
	Nice try.
	Okay.
	I know you said outside of income, but let's focus on the income.
	No, let's try it.
	without income.
	He's very intelligent.
	Highly intelligent.
	Kind of helps me with Adderall.
	Oh, no.
	Yeah, of course.
	Well, yeah.
	A lot of pretty awesome things that I find highly valuable.
	It's nature and like work ethic and teaching me how to mow the lawn and maintain the yard and go.
	He knows the practical skills and all of that, but not wisdom.
	Sure.
	Gardening and catching animals and whatnot.
	And I don't know.
	I mean, whatever, I guess.
	We used to build rockets and stuff like that.
	Okay.
	Do you know what a woman is saying when she spends too much?
	What is she saying to her husband?
	Need more?
	I don't know.
	She is saying, I want more stuff and less you.
	Okay.
	Does this make sense?
	Yeah, I mean, I guess so.
	Let's say she wants to refinish the basement, and this means overtime for six months.
	Then she's saying, I would rather have finished basement than have you be home more for six months.
	Yeah, that checks.
	Right?
	So your mother preferred money to your father in general overall.
	This is because a spendthrift, like if, let's say, I was spending a lot of money and that meant my wife had to work overtime for months, right?
	I'd be like, well, I'm not going to spend money because I'd rather you come home.
	I'd rather, you know, we do our thing.
	We go for walks.
	We, you know, cuddle on the couch, whatever it is, we chat.
	I would rather you be home.
	Like, I don't want stuff.
	I want you, right?
	So when your mother spends too much and she doesn't work, she is directly saying to your father, get out of here and get me money.
	Go away and get me money.
	I'd rather have stuff than you.
	I'd rather have a big house than you home more.
	I'd rather have a Land Rover, was it?
	A British Land Rover than have you home more, right?
	So if your mother chose stuff over your father and your father went along with it, it meant he had to buy his way into your mother's affections.
	It meant he had to pay for his positive regard.
	In other words, if he'd have said, no, I'm not paying for this stupid Land Rover.
	Like, I'm not paying for it.
	You get to get a domestic, get a local, get a whatever.
	I get a beater, right?
	Right?
	I mean, I would rather live in a bachelor apartment with my wife than in a mansion if that meant I saw her less.
	Because relationships are everything in life.
	I'd much rather spend time with my lovely wife than have a big house to wander around alone in, right?
	So your father had to buy your mother's positive regard.
	In other words, if he didn't give her money, she'd get upset.
	She'd get mad.
	She'd be cold.
	She'd storm around.
	She'd be distant.
	She'd withhold sex.
	I don't know what.
	But there's a reason, bro, went out onto the endless treadmill of work, work, work to buy his wife useless stuff because he had to pay her.
	And if he didn't pay her, she'd be mad, right?
	So when you don't have an income, you're afraid that your wife is going to treat you like your father's wife treated him.
	Who am I without feeding money into the endless vagina dentate?
	Chomp, chomp, chomp.
	Like a Miss Pac-Man with the glowing dots of male balls.
	Did I get there?
	Yeah, that.
	I mean, that I want to say like that.
	That's a pretty spot on for how I feel 100%.
	But I don't want to, I don't want to say that's 100% like the actual case.
	No, it's definitely something that is within me.
	I am not trying to throw you your wife.
	I'm not trying to throw your wife under the bus here.
	I'm not saying it's true.
	Right.
	I'm not saying that she will.
	But this is your father's anxiety.
	Give money much debt.
	You're good.
	I am good.
	I will not argue with you when you're right.
	So, yeah, listen, you are worth infinitely more than money to your wife.
	I'm sure of that.
	And men as a whole, do not be bullied into being a workhorse.
	Don't do it.
	It is bad for you.
	It's bad for your wife.
	It's bad for your children.
	In Christianity, are you supposed to prefer material goods or the love of your husband?
	What?
	Does Jesus say what matters is useless stuff you buy rather than time and a good example and the transfer of wisdom to your children?
	What?
	Thank you.
	It's not even good Christianity, to be honest.
	So I would talk to your dad about this and say, "You worked a lot.
	Mom seemed to buy a lot.
	Like, what was going on with that?
	Because what we make conscious, we can choose about.
	What we leave unconscious runs our lives.
	We don't even know.
	We just do, right?
	All right.
	Does that make sense?
	No, yeah.
	All right.
	I appreciate that.
	And a great job navigating a rapid fire college show.
	Well done.
	All right.
	Should we try Carrie again?
	Kerry.
	Good evening.
	Good evening.
	Can you hear me?
	Yes.
	Sorry about that earlier.
	No problem.
	Wow.
	I was going to ask you a question about free will, but I loved that call.
	That hit home.
	Go on.
	I appreciate that.
	You were going to ask me a question about free will, but you chose differently.
	Well, no, I still can't.
	I just wanted to let you know how much I appreciated that last call.
	Was that because of the jaw-dropping glorified brilliant insights, or was it because it hit home to you or both?
	Both.
	Tell me how it hit home for you.
	The glorious insights we'll take for granted, but tell me how it hit home for you.
	Oh, boy, I raised myself since I was 10, probably.
	I just found friends' houses to go to.
	You know, my parents would find me.
	They weren't really looking for me.
	They'd find me if it was my turn to do chores or something.
	But I think that's where my perfectionism and kind of OCD came from: if I could be perfect at my friends' houses, their parents would let me stay.
	You know, I could stay school nice.
	I can go on vacation.
	You know, I can go to the lake with them every weekend.
	So I learned to be perfect.
	Same with like with my teachers.
	You know, I did straight A's and I was my nickname in high school was goody two shoes because I didn't want to do anything that would make people think I was like the rest of my family.
	Goody two, goody-too, goody-goody two-shoes.
	Don't drink, don't smoke.
	What do you do?
	No, and I had a friend, a good family, and I would go up to his cottage.
	And I can't even tell you how helpful I was at that cottage because I was just like, I will do free labor just to be away from home for the weekend.
	You need an outhouse moved?
	I'm on it.
	You need a snowmobile repaired?
	I'm on it.
	You need wood chopped.
	You need anything.
	I will do it all.
	I will be your absolute cabin boy just to be invited back.
	But sorry, go ahead.
	Yes.
	And, you know, my friends would get irritated because their parents would say, why can't you be more like Carrie?
	You know, she's so helpful.
	I knew where everything in their house was because I'm the one that washed it and put it up, you know?
	And so it carries with you for a long time.
	You know, I went through college and I got the job I wanted and very high profile, you know, job.
	Everybody else was what in my degree was trying to get and thought that would fix it and it just never did.
	Fix what?
	Fix what?
	Fix my feeling that I had to prove I wasn't like my family.
	You mean if you grew up with an irrational family becoming a public rationalist philosopher to distance yourself as much as possible.
	Sorry, Carrie, I don't know.
	I don't know.
	I have no, I have no confluence with what you're saying.
	It's a complete mystery to me.
	So please, please explain it to me because I'm lost.
	No, I think that's why I've gravitated to you so much since you've been back because I'm like, oh my goodness, I relate to so much of this, except for I didn't become a brilliant philosopher and, you know, 20 years of brilliance.
	I'm sure you are absolutely wonderful in your own profession.
	And how do you think this affected your personal dating marriage life?
	Oh, very, very badly.
	I finally got adopted by a church family, kind of adopted, not really, but my last couple of years in high school.
	And they, you know, they pushed me into marrying at 18 because they wanted me to be pure and all that.
	And we didn't make it through college together, married.
	So then I just decided I wasn't going to do that again until I was 30.
	Oh, but you got married again?
	Yes.
	And how's that going?
	Oh, it didn't go well.
	Oh, dear.
	I was like, I'm rooting for you, Carrie.
	I'm rooting for you.
	No, no, no.
	It doesn't go away.
	Anyway, I have two children and I'm married now and their stepdad's awesome and everything.
	But I have a hard time listening to all the virtues and all the talk about how women are supposed to be a certain way.
	Cause I do the best I can with what I was dealt, you know, like trying to teach yourself all these things that you didn't know.
	And my daughter is turning 16 and my son is 14.
	And I do a lot of what you were saying to the first caller that moms are supposed to do.
	And I surprise myself sometimes.
	Like some people will say, how did you learn how to be a good quote unquote mom?
	Because you never had that.
	And I don't know exactly where it came from, except for God, probably.
	You know, there's something in me that just wants to give them what I didn't have, you know?
	Well, you took the lessons that were bad and you did the inverse.
	Yes, that's what I've tried to do.
	No, but that, so that means that the bad lessons propels you into something good.
	If my mother had been quite so crazy, I wouldn't have aimed so much at sanity.
	If my mother had been less violent, I wouldn't have been as committed to peaceful parenting.
	Like the best you can do with the evils or the dysfunctions or the messes that you're given is to have a good old tidy reaction formation in the other direction, right?
	So if you grew up with obese parents, you're like, man, I don't want anything to do with that.
	I'm going to stay fit and healthy over the course of my life.
	And that's why I, when people say to me, well, I'm this way because of my parents, I'm like, no, no, you're not.
	There's a choice in there.
	Just because something happened to you does not mean that you have to reproduce it.
	That will be your default position, but that sure isn't your only position.
	Right.
	So I, you know, I struggle with the guilt of how did I mess up so much?
	But then I still ended up in a good spot where I have, you know, two awesome kids that know they're loved and they can come to me for anything.
	Like my son's never been in trouble.
	He got in trouble for writing in the bathroom at school, junior high, you know, and writing in the bathroom?
	On the stalls.
	He graffiti.
	Oh, graffiti.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Graffiti now before the post-war rush.
	Yeah, yeah, got it.
	So he got suspended for the first time.
	And he told me last night, he said, I thought you were really going to come down on me.
	And I was so scared.
	And he goes, thank you for handling this.
	And I know I did wrong and I'll do better.
	And I just almost wanted to go in my room and cry because I never would have had that conversation with my parents.
	You know, it was like, you did wrong.
	You know, you shouldn't lie this, you know, all the things.
	But then in the end, he knows I love him.
	He knows that I believe he's going to, you know, not do it again.
	He learned from it and he's a good kid.
	Not you're going backwards.
	You're stupid.
	You know, things my parents would have said, you know, how could you be so dumb to do something like that?
	You know, it's like, listen, you know, everybody makes mistakes.
	You're learning from it.
	You know, it was wrong.
	You knew it was wrong when you did it, you know, because he's beating himself up about it.
	I don't want him sad the whole time he's home, you know, but you just, I don't know.
	I just feel like that last conversation you had, everything hit hum.
	Right.
	And to pose the same question to you, Carrie, what, I mean, other than the negative lessons, what positive lessons did your, and it's an important question for everyone to ask.
	You got to do an inventory of how you got where you are.
	And what positive lessons did your parents give to you that you still use to this day?
	My dad, he grew up without a dad and joined the military early.
	So he didn't really know how to be a dad.
	Okay, so you're starting off with excuses.
	Right?
	Don't do that.
	That's your dad talking.
	Well, daughter, if you're going to go on the public airwaves and you're going to talk anything negative about me, you better give me a lot of excuses first.
	Don't get the excuses.
	That's not what I asked for.
	Everyone's got excuses.
	He was good about teaching the basics.
	Don't steal, don't chew with your mouth full of food.
	You know, wash your hands.
	He took us, he taught us to fish and those things.
	Okay, moral lessons.
	No.
	No.
	Neither one of my parents taught me any of that.
	Well, I'm sorry about that for sure.
	I mean, there's a negative to that, but there's a positive too, which is that to me, it's a lot easier to make art on a blank canvas than try to adapt a bad painting.
	And so, sorry for the rather labored analogy, but because my parents taught me nothing, I could create just about everything.
	Whereas if my parents had taught me stuff, I would have had to undo that, change, rewrite, and so on.
	And so for me, kind of like if you need to write a story, you need to type a story.
	I used to have an electric typewriter when I was a kid.
	You need to type a story.
	You want a blank sheet of paper.
	Otherwise, you're just typing over other stuff.
	It's really tough to read.
	So I'm sorry that you didn't get any lessons, but that probably had something to do with the amazing progress you made with regards to your own parenting.
	Yes, I gravitated to the church myself also.
	Like my family didn't go.
	But, you know, when I was probably five, there was a church down the street and I would just kind of go in there and wander in and I'd learn things and they'd have a vacation Bible school and I'd walk myself down there.
	And so I got those lessons kind of just from the church searching.
	I was searching for something had to be better than what I saw at home.
	The yelling and the screaming and the fighting and the degeneracy.
	I knew there was something better out there.
	I just knew from as long as I can remember back that it wasn't right.
	You know, like some people grew up in that and they think it's the right thing to do and they continue it on.
	But something in me just told me this isn't right.
	You're supposed to respect your parents and do what your parents do.
	But I knew very young that that's not what I was supposed to do.
	Yeah, I remember as a kid in England, paper-thin walls.
	It was all, yeah, it was all, I think it was all rebuilt after the Second World War, after the bombings.
	And I remember at one point sitting, sitting in the hallway of the little apartment that we had, I must have been maybe six or seven.
	And I remember I could hear yelling voices from everywhere.
	Like people, couples yelling at each other.
	You know, I don't know if it was above or below, but I remember sort of in front.
	It wasn't to one side because we had windows.
	We were on the second floor.
	But it was like in front, to the right and behind, I used to hear this cacophony of yelling.
	And I remember even as a kid just thinking like, this is hell.
	Not like this is kind of like hell.
	Like this is literally hell.
	This is hell.
	Yes.
	Why not just be nice?
	Why not just be friendly?
	Why not just be positive?
	Why not just get along?
	I know that sounds like Rodney Kigg said.
	Just get along.
	But I remember thinking, like, why wouldn't you just be nice?
	Why wouldn't you just be positive, friendly, helpful?
	And the moment I found someone who agreed with me, we got married and it's been close to a quarter century.
	And I won't say it's better than ever, but it's like it just gets better, just gets better.
	It was great to begin with.
	It just keeps getting better.
	We had just an absolutely wonderful day today.
	I took some time off this afternoon, but we spent all morning just chatting and tidying up around the kitchen and the living room.
	And we had a nice lunch together.
	And then I did some work.
	She did some stuff.
	And then we got together for dinner and had a really nice chat.
	We're going to, you know, hang out.
	It's just, it's wonderful.
	You know, it's just, it's absolutely great.
	I honestly cannot remember the last conflict we had.
	And not even like major, just any conflict.
	And, oh, no, that's right.
	I remember it was today.
	Yes, that's right.
	I try to be, I try to be helpful by emptying the dishwasher.
	Now, as a husband, you're married.
	I guess you've had three husbands.
	So as a husband, when I empty the dishwasher, do you think I create either A, less work for my wife, or B, more work for my wife?
	More, because you're doing it wrong.
	I am in fact doing it wrong.
	To my credit, I know where the coffee mugs go because I drink a lot of coffee or decaf or whatever, right?
	So I know where some stuff goes.
	I can't, for the life of me.
	Like there are these weird little square bowls made of plastic, which have lids.
	And then there's like various implements.
	I don't know what they do.
	They're for disemboweling Klingons or something like that.
	I don't know where they go.
	I have no idea.
	I'm not entirely sure where the cutting boards go, but I think it's in a cupboard somewhere.
	And so I was like, oh, I'll be helpful.
	I'll empty the dishwasher.
	And she's like, no, no, I got it.
	And you know, with the wife, when she's trying to be nice, but there's a certain level of desperation in her voice.
	No, no, no, I got it.
	It's fine.
	Oh, it's okay, really?
	Yeah, I appreciate the help.
	No, no, no.
	It would be like if she's taking Windex to one of my computers.
	No, no, no.
	I'll clean it.
	I'll clean it.
	I got it.
	It's fine.
	It's fine.
	Please do not.
	Please do not.
	So other than that, other than that, it was fine.
	And we headed out this afternoon.
	I tried to get a haircut, but they were busy and she went to the grocery store.
	And I'm like, dum-de-dum, heading to the car.
	And she's like, where are you going?
	I'm like, we're heading out.
	And she's like, your clothes are upstairs.
	She puts out clothes for me.
	It's really funny because I'm just like, I think that these shorts are fine.
	And she's like, it's seven degrees outside.
	They're flannel shorts.
	No.
	A, and, and no.
	So I went up and changed, right?
	And then I was coming back downstairs.
	She said, did you get your belt?
	Now, I would have been annoyed except for one reason.
	What's that one reason that I had no reason to be annoyed when she said, did you get your belt?
	Because your pants were falling down.
	Because I didn't have my belt.
	Oh.
	Did you get your belt?
	Oh, hang on.
	I didn't get my belt.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Thank you.
	Appreciate it.
	So, yeah, I mean, honestly, it's a lot of fun and it's really enjoyable.
	She's very funny.
	And we just have a great, great time.
	I mean, why not?
	Like, what's the point?
	What's the point of yelling?
	Like, what do you win?
	Like, your parents are yelling and fighting.
	What do you win?
	What do you get?
	What do you get?
	Do you get a prize?
	Do you get money?
	Do you get peace of mind?
	Do you get contentment?
	Do you get good night's sleep?
	No, you get weird tasting coffee in sudden palpitations in a very sinister fashion.
	Sorry, is there anything else that you did talk, want to talk about free wellness or anything you wanted to mention about that?
	Well, I have one other question for you.
	Since we, you know, ended up on this, why do mothers pick certain children as their favorites and shun others?
	Like, I was the good kid, right?
	Just to make it about myself, I was the good kid.
	And I got no attention, no resources, nothing.
	And then my brother, he was the oldest and the only boy, got everything.
	And no matter how much trouble he got in, she would bail him out.
	I'm talking pay his tele support, fix his car when he'd get high and busted up.
	You know, just everything, single resource that she had went to him.
	And then the ones that weren't getting in trouble, she had no, no, no time for.
	Isn't that bizarre?
	Well, let me put forward a theory for you.
	Tell me if it makes sense.
	And you, hey, you think you could make this about you?
	No, I'm going to make this about me.
	Get in there and make it about you.
	So my mother was nicer to me than she was to my brother.
	Very unfair.
	And the reason she was quite explicit about it is that she said, well, Steph, you remind me of my father who I loved.
	Your brother reminds me of my ex-husband who I loathe.
	And to be fair, there were some similarities, blah, blah, blah.
	But so that's just unfair.
	Now, of course, I was a bit more tenderhearted.
	I was a creative kid.
	My father, my grandfather was a fairly famous writer on my mother's side.
	So my mother was very close to her father.
	And she actually, after he died, apparently his last, one of his last words was him looking at my mother and said, of all my children, you're the only one who ever made sense.
	And I'm like, please let me not meet the other children.
	But I remember she got into a big fight with her half-brother about who sent the flowers and that they just never spoke again.
	And it was a really sad story.
	But so I just happened to fit into the mind model she had of her father, whereas my brother happened to fit into the mind model that she had of her ex-husband.
	And they did look somewhat alike.
	And I certainly did.
	I don't look like my Irish side.
	I look, well, you know, blue eyes, blonde hair, square jaw.
	I look like my German side.
	And I have inherited, I've inherited all of the discipline.
	Sorry, I can never just say discipline.
	Discipline of my German side.
	But there sometimes can be those kinds of coincidences, which may have shown up in your family.
	And the other thing that I would say is sometimes parents pick out a favorite in order to further punish the others.
	See, we can be nice.
	We're nice to him.
	If we're not nice to you, man, must be something, must be you, because we can do it.
	Right.
	Do you know if your brother reminded your parents of, or your mother in particular, of anyone in her family?
	Well, she had five brothers and only one younger, 12-year-old younger sister.
	So the boys, you know, she probably wanted a boy and then she had four girls afterwards.
	No, no, but I mean, in terms of like someone that she respected or deferred to who was a male when she was like maybe her father or grandfather or that I would imagine that there was someone that your brother reminded your mother of that she deferred to him.
	She never said so, but she did, she did revere her father very much.
	Like there was nothing negative she would ever have said about her dad, but her mother, not so much.
	Right.
	And so she was harsher on the girls and the boy.
	Yes.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	See, most, like without self-knowledge, everyone's just a machine of history.
	They're just an NPC.
	They just copy paste.
	They are, they have no free will in the absence of self-knowledge.
	In the absence of self-knowledge, we just recreate everything that came before.
	We just copy paste everything that came before.
	We have no functional capacity to choose different because we don't know how what happened affected us and therefore we can't choose anything different.
	It becomes an absolute.
	Like I don't wake up every morning and say, I wonder if I'm going to do gravity or not today.
	I mean, I like hanging on the earth, but at the same time, it's kind of cool to float around.
	Like it's just not an option.
	And people without self-knowledge, history and personality are like physics.
	You don't have the option to opt out of them, to choose differently.
	And a lot of times, worship of a parent has to do with vanity, which is, oh, my father was so wonderful.
	My father was so special.
	My mother's saying, oh, my father, when he was dying, looked at me and said, you're the only one of my kids who made sense, right?
	Now, I don't know if he did.
	If he did, he was probably delirious.
	But that was an article of faith in how right she was about things.
	And maybe with regards to your mother, her father, her regard for her father had to do with her father's regard for her or praise of her, which meant that she was justified in all she did and could never be questioned.
	I'm just obviously, I'm reaching here, but it may be something like that.
	Oh, that makes sense.
	Yes.
	And that ties it right back to, I don't want to keep too much more time, but that ties it right back to what I wanted to ask about free will was if I, you know, if about myself again, if somebody grows up without knowing any better and they grow up with bad influences, you really don't have free will because you, you wouldn't choose to do wrong, but if you were never taught right until you can learn it yourself, like you were saying to last caller, you know, you get out there and you have to learn these things yourself.
	You don't really have a choice.
	Do you really have free will if your influences sent you down a bad path?
	So the way that I know if someone has free will is if they blame other people for their choices.
	Okay.
	That's how I know.
	I don't have any magical, obviously magical brain scan to figure out if someone has free will, but I know someone has free will if they get mad at children for what their children have chosen.
	Like nobody, no sane parent gets mad at a child for having brown eyes, right?
	Or for being short or having curly hair, right?
	You don't get mad at your children for things they never chose, right?
	So when parents get mad at their children, the parents are saying, you had a choice and you chose wrong.
	And so when people get mad at children or anybody and say, you chose wrong, I know that they accept and believe in free will.
	And because they're blaming other people for choosing poorly, they can never say themselves, I didn't have a choice.
	Now, if for some reason they become determinists later on in life and maybe they accept the bullcrap, non-scientific stuff about there's no free will because your brain makes decisions before you're even consciously aware, blah, blah, blah.
	It's like, that's not what free will is.
	It's not some impulse that happens deep in your brain before you become consciously aware of it.
	That's not free will.
	That's like saying, well, if you've spent 10 years practicing catching and throwing, you can just automatically catch a ball flying towards your face.
	Therefore, you have no free will.
	It's like you train yourself in your responses.
	So if someone, a parent, gets mad at a child, well, why would you do that?
	Or what's wrong with you?
	Or that was bad choice, bad call, bad decision, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
	Then they have accept, they've accepted that there's the free will existence.
	If later on they become a determinist, the first thing they have to do is they have to go back to their children and say, oh my gosh, you know, I punished you for my perception of your free will when it turns out we don't even have free will, you know?
	And that would be like a parent who punishes a child for having epilepsy and then later finds out, oh, you're just faking it.
	And then later they find out, no, the child really had epilepsy.
	They weren't faking it.
	It's a very real thing.
	Then they'd have to go back and apologize to their child.
	But I mean, that never happens, of course, because somebody who becomes a determinist can say, well, it was predetermined that I blame my children and they get all of this get out of jail-free stuff.
	So, so the moment that my mother attacked or criticized or punished me for making a bad choice, she was saying that even a five-year-old, even a four-year-old has a choice.
	And we, and if she were to say, well, I had a bad childhood, it's like, well, so did I, but you still blamed me for the choices that I made, literally while having a bad childhood that you were inflicting.
	So, so I don't, I just can judge people by the judgments they make of others.
	And if somebody punishes a child for the child's choice, they cannot say that they don't believe in free will.
	They can only say, I mean, they can make up a bunch of excuses, but if those excuses would not have been allowed for their child, then I don't accept the excuses for the adults.
	If it's an excuse, you wouldn't give a five-year-old, you know, don't try claiming it at 40, right?
	If that makes sense.
	Yes.
	All right.
	Anything else?
	No, thank you so much.
	A great pleasure.
	Feel free to call in anytime.
	It was a lot of fun and I think very helpful and insightful.
	All right.
	Oh, my friend Speedy Gonzalez.
	I really appreciate your patience.
	I know you've been hanging out for a bit.
	Peter, I don't think I'll get to you because this is like my six-hour philosophy today.
	So, but I will chat with JC Gonzalez because you have been waiting most patiently.
	Well, maybe not patiently.
	What do I know?
	I can't see you.
	Maybe you're vibrating like a tuning fork.
	I don't know.
	But if you want to unmute, I'm happy to hear.
	He may be in a different time zone and has completely fallen asleep.
	Oh, saying yes, saying no.
	All right, Peter, looks like we're going with you as the last caller.
	If you would like to speak, actually, no, let's just do English.
	Going once, going twice.
	Going once.
	Peter, Peter, pumpkin eater, are you with me?
	Yeah, I knew you were going to say that.
	Yeah, yeah.
	It's something I don't even have free will when it comes to that.
	So, yeah.
	Well, it's like everybody says it's very interesting speaking to you finally after all these years.
	I've been listening to you for a very, very long time.
	Since the red Volvo, I think it was red.
	Nice.
	It was red.
	Very red.
	That's very cool.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	So basically, I just wanted to touch on something with the previous caller.
	And you see this a lot with all of your calls where somebody will call in and you, you know, obviously you go into their childhood, into their history, and you ask them what values do they have.
	And it's something that's very hard to answer for a lot of people.
	With regards to childhood, when you say what values do they have, do I mean what values did their parents inculcate in them or what did they discover as values as a child?
	I just want to make sure I know what you mean.
	Yes, exactly the first one.
	So, what values did the parents pass on?
	Yeah, it's a big question.
	Yeah, yeah, it's a very big question, and it's something that, like, especially in my history, if I share it here, will maybe help somebody else.
	But, you know, very similar to a lot of people, my parents kind of got married, kind of shotgun, married very early at 20.
	My mom had twins at 20, so it really changed her life very quickly.
	And growing up with, you know, they never really chose themselves because of virtue.
	They just chose themselves because in the Catholic faith, they were kind of forced to get married.
	No, hang on.
	Hang on.
	Not forced.
	Sorry.
	That's something.
	Hang on.
	Did they choose to have unprotected sex?
	Oh, 100%.
	Yeah.
	So nothing after that.
	Nothing.
	If you play Russian roulette, you can't claim that you got shot, right?
	Yeah, 100%.
	Okay.
	Just checking.
	Yeah, I've heard that argument from you before, and I actually use it myself.
	It's okay, but a nice thing to try and slip the excuses in right ahead of time because you make them sound like they were dragged behind the chains of their own fertility, like some sort of lynching.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, yeah.
	And this is again what a valuable conversation is.
	Like, you can't slip anything by.
	Like, everything is listened to, everything is addressed.
	And I love that about these conversations.
	So, yeah, going back to the previous caller, I totally understand how hard it was because with my parents, that never happened.
	We moved from Eastern Europe to North America, let's say.
	And my mother never really wanted to be in North America.
	She wanted to go back home.
	So she was basically stopped being a mother.
	Like, she would not do a lot of the things that mother would do.
	Sorry, my father was a little bit of a daughter.
	I'm just a little lost here.
	So, why did she move to North America if she didn't want to move?
	The country that we were in, Poland, basically back in the 80s, was under a communist regime.
	So it was, you know, everything that's kind of happening now in slow motion kind of happened very quickly in the late 80s.
	Mostly the currency collapsed.
	There was not much of a future.
	And my father basically had to escape to Crete, pretending to go on vacation because you couldn't really leave Poland at all.
	So hang on, sorry.
	Your mother wanted to stay in communist Poland she wanted to stay where the family was, right?
	And we like, and you didn't really know what was out there.
	That was her only kind of frame of reference, I think, if I was to speak for her.
	And so she wanted to stay with family, but she also understood why my dad wanted to move because with two kids, there really wasn't a future in Poland at the time.
	And I think a lot of people did that migration from Poland during that time to all over the United States, Canada, and so forth, Australia.
	Well, I mean, women prefer socialism and men prefer capitalism.
	Women prefer security and men prefer freedom.
	So in general, right?
	So I can see why there would be that difference.
	That's a great point as well.
	Yeah.
	And so, but anyways, in terms of us living in another country away from our grandparents, we didn't have any family here whatsoever.
	And so she basically went into this mode where she would just sit on the couch, watch TV, and not be at all involved with my sister and I. Like she went on to get away from that.
	And my dad was.
	Yeah, basically.
	Right.
	Okay, so that hang on.
	Sorry, that arises out of a lack of love for your father.
	Oh, 100%.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So, sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah.
	And it's kind of like a passive-aggressive strike, if you will, because it's like, I'm not going to do anything.
	And I'm not even going to raise your kids.
	I don't want to be here.
	Right.
	And my dad was working, you know, two, three jobs, trying to make things happen, but he was also, I later learned he was not from a good family.
	His father was an alcoholic.
	Yeah, exactly.
	I mean, Poland under communism in more particular.
	But go ahead, sorry.
	Yeah, no, it was brutal.
	Like some of the stuff that you mentioned, like with Bitcoin early on, it's like I remember at six years of age going with my twin sister to the grocery store and there's nothing on the shelves.
	And people have no idea how that feels like.
	And the food stamps that we had, we would give to the lady behind the counter and she would like reach underneath the counter and there's some like cheese that she was kind of saving for somebody that, you know, it was totally like one of those totally, I mean, everybody was fit.
	That's for sure.
	Everybody was healthy.
	There wasn't obesity or diabetes, I guess you can say that's a positive, but it was pretty brutal.
	And then exactly kind of like what happened in Zimbabwe and Weimar Republic, they couldn't put enough zeros on the back of paper bills to make it worth anything.
	And the only way that our family survived is we had a little farm, right?
	We had a farm, we had chickens, we had pigs, and we kind of ate organic, if you will, for quite a while until things kind of got better.
	And now, as you know, since you've traveled there a few years ago, maybe six years ago now, that Poland is doing quite well.
	But that underlying philosophy is still, I think, underdeveloped with Poland.
	I think they have a huge chance of going back to where they kind of left in terms of communism, right?
	So, sorry, that's kind of like a big segue.
	But the main thing is that the parents weren't involved.
	And I remember the first time, the only thing I remember in terms of like a thing that a virtue that my father tried to pass on to me, and I didn't even realize it at the time, is to say, he said, make sure you have sex with the woman that you love.
	So, you know, only going back now, I'm like, okay, he's, you know, he's obviously talking about my mom and the mistake that he willfully made by having sex with my mom, obviously, and so forth.
	But yeah, but then going again back to Collar's point, there was never any kind of moral lessons passed on.
	And I remember the first time that I actually learned the moral, the first time I kind of realized philosophy, how important philosophy was when I had my economics test in high school.
	And the first question was, what's the role of government?
	I obviously got that wrong.
	And so I brought that up to my friend's parents, and they just blew up.
	They just got so upset.
	They got so mad.
	And I couldn't understand why.
	I'm like, how are you so upset?
	It's just a stupid question on an exam.
	And that's kind of how I got into Ayn Rand, of all things.
	And I think after not having any kind of virtue and values passed on from my parents, this is where I think philosophy was such a huge, it's like opening up the shades in a dark room, right?
	Like it just was so enlightening.
	Like stuff starts to make sense.
	And yeah, it was huge.
	And I think you were a very big part of that too.
	So I just want to say thank you.
	It still took me a while to find my present wife.
	Prior to that, I was in a very similar relationship with my ex-wife for almost 18 years, believe it or not, with no kids, no purpose, no future.
	It was just going through the motions, you know, every day.
	And it was a and even after listening to you, right, I was still with my ex, kind of going through it all.
	And it wasn't until like, I think five or six years ago where you said something in a podcast where the whole meaning of relationships or dating and marriage is to is to make kids, right?
	It's make a family and to go on like that into the future.
	And that kind of opened me up so much so that obviously a divorce was in order and a much, much better situation right now because of you.
	So two beautiful kids, amazing wife, Catholic wife.
	So back to the Christian Catholic values, if you will.
	But we, yeah, the values that I'm looking forward to pass on to my kids, a lot of it is, I would say 95% of it comes from the stuff that I've listened over the years.
	So again, just a big thank you to you.
	That's a beautiful thing to hear.
	And I really do appreciate you sharing that.
	I mean, that's the good stuff that philosophy can create and provide in the here and now.
	So it's not just doom scrolling about things we can't change.
	So I really, really appreciate that.
	That's very kind.
	Thank you.
	Yeah.
	And then just to anybody else listening, I mean, I'm not sure how that wake-up call is, because again, I've listened for so long to you and it was so fun getting into the technical calls, you know, about certain things like existence and all that kind of stuff.
	But in the end, it is really about like, what good would you be, let's say, knowing, having all that information if you can't pass it on to somebody, right?
	And that I think would be best would be your children and their children's children and so on.
	This kind of perpetual future that we can, I think, build by pushing these kind of, you know, pushing these kinds of encouraging.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And Isn't it nice to have philosophy that's actionable that you can actually do something about rather than, again, just sort of tortured and seeing the end of the world in slow motion, but actually be able to do something positive and helpful.
	And I guess that's the combination of my sort of German rationalism and Anglo-Saxon practicality is what's the point of ideas if you can't act on them?
	And what's the point of acting on ideas that aren't rational?
	So putting those two together, I think has been very helpful.
	Oh, it's huge.
	It's massive.
	And you've seen that with the previous callers that you've had in the past few weeks, whether it's the rock guy or others where they just want to get lost in this.
	And again, I use a lot of your words and I credit you a lot, but this kind of like masturbatory nature where you're just kind of stuck in a world of ideas and realms and never going to get out of it.
	And that's kind of what, again, what I did with my life for a very long time with my previous wife.
	And then you're kind of, and you've said this before, you're kind of in neverland.
	You're not growing up.
	You're kind of sitting there.
	You're, you know, you get a car, then you get another car, then get a house, and you get all these kind of materialistic things.
	But all around me, you know, my twins, my sister had two kids and, you know, they're, you know, they're much older now.
	Your friends are having kids, families, like things are doing, and you're kind of just sitting there, just going to work, coming back and doing the motions.
	And again, that virtue was not there.
	That value for life, that thirst for life was not there.
	And the other thing I always tell people, which again, I got from you, was like, nothing focuses a man more than a family, right?
	So yeah, so I think all that I just wanted to add.
	And to anybody else that's kind of listening, it's pretty big.
	It's pretty huge to pass on these values to somebody.
	I think that's one of the biggest gifts you can give.
	And in terms of Christianity, too, God or Jesus puts the kids in the middle, right?
	And during baptism, again, my wife is Catholic.
	I'm just more of like a cultural Catholic.
	I'm more of a Stefanist, if you will.
	But with baptism, when you go through the baptism, you actually make a proclamation to the church and to not a proclamation, you make a trust or you promise basically to raise virtuous kids.
	Yeah, yeah, for sure.
	All right.
	Well, it's a beautiful tale.
	I really can't think of a better way to end the show on.
	And I thank you guys so much.
	If you're a donor, I did a show last night rebutting the caller from Wednesday night who also showed up today, once regular and another under a pseudonym, which was the radical skeptic.
	I gave myself a 7.5 to 8 out of 10 on that debate.
	And so I cleaned it up.
	And for donors, it is available, my sort of thoughts on how to make the debate ironclad.
	And so I hope you'll check that out in the donator section.
	Have yourself a glorious, wonderful, lovely, delightful evening.
	We will see you 11 a.m. for donor-only chats where we can go as spicy as we like.
	And I really do thank everyone.
	Sorry, Peter, for not getting to you, but we will make you front of the queue next time.
	And have yourself a lovely night.
	My friends, thank you for 20 years.
	He's looking for, I don't think I can get 40 more.
	Yeah, 40 more would get me to 99.
	That's pushing it.
	30, 89?
	I think I can do that.
	My mom's still chugging.
	So I think I can do it if I stay healthy.
	So, all right, I'll stop sitting and go start moving.
	And lots of love.
	If you're listening to this laterfreedoman.com slash donate to help out the show, be gratefully, humbly, and deeply appreciated.
	And lots of love.

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