Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux - My Girlfriend Doesn't Want Kids! CALL IN SHOW

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Oct. 24, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:14:28

My Girlfriend Doesn't Want Kids! CALL IN SHOW

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	I would like to ask for your perspective on a matter we currently have between me and my girlfriend of two and a half years.
	So some context from the beginning, we were open about family.
	I have always wanted to have children while she didn't share the same desire, so she wasn't against them either.
	Now we are at the point where we have to decide how to proceed.
	I recognize you would argue that this should be done at the start, and I agree.
	At the time, I assumed she might eventually come to want to have children as well.
	Anyway, we have been attending couples therapy for the last four months.
	First, to see whether we could resolve the question of not having or having children.
	Naturally, the sessions let us talk about our backgrounds, families, traumas, etc., which was all hugely helpful to both of us.
	Yesterday, not yesterday, but it's like three weeks ago, at the therapy, it was the hardest session for me.
	I'm still going over it in my mind, but essentially it was said at the session that I did not truly choose my girlfriend for who she is, but rather because of my wish to have children.
	What was then said was that for a husband, a wife should be before everything else, and children should be a byproduct of that love.
	Then on she went so that she said, if a man would not want to stay with his woman even without children, he does not truly love her.
	And then some other points, but basically the point was that if I want to have children and I don't put my girlfriend before this wish, I do know this is not true love.
	I'm struggling to understand this perspective since it differs so much from what I think.
	Why is it that if I want to have children, I first have to forfeit this dream of having children in order for my girlfriend to have like I have chosen her for herself and not just because I want to have children.
	I would like to spend my life with my girlfriend.
	I value many of her good qualities that she has and I want to have a family with her.
	Same time, I don't love her so overwhelmingly that I would be content giving up the dream of raising my family or her family.
	Why is this thinking considered lord and how does this lead to unhealthy relationships?
	Is it really not ethical love if a man is considering leaving his girlfriend if she does not want to have children?
	This is the essence of what I wrote.
	I hope it was understandable for you.
	Yeah, it makes it makes good sense to me.
	And if I would like to hear from your girlfriend, how long have you guys been together?
	Two and a half years.
	Two and a half years.
	Okay, well, very nice to meet you.
	And I'm sure we could do some useful stuff.
	So if you would like to tell me your perspective, do you guys want to give me like, I don't know, I hate to say sort of Bob and Jane because that's very, very angled.
	Yeah, sure.
	I've got to see Bob and Jane.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So Jane, Jane, if not your real name, right?
	But Jane, if you could tell me a little bit about what you think.
	Okay, yeah.
	So this is also a struggle for me because, well, I do love Bob.
	And I think we have a good relationship.
	But somehow I'm not sure if I want to pursue this path of having children, even though I constantly work with them or are in touch with them.
	So I'm worried if we could proceed our relationship if not having children or if there is a desire and it won't happen for a few years.
	Maybe it will, maybe it won't.
	So I am not really sure of what my future will be like.
	And Bob really has a desire.
	He knows what he wants.
	For me, it's painful when he says, like, I would like to be with you.
	But on the other hand, I still want to have children.
	So I don't know what I love more, but I would want more.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Got it.
	All right.
	And how old are you guys?
	Just roughly.
	Is this the 30s or mid-30s?
	Yeah, I mean, 30s.
	30s.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Got it.
	Early ones.
	All right.
	So, I mean, you got to make the decision soon, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And when did you guys first talk about having kids versus not having kids?
	Do you want to go?
	Oh, no.
	So it was basically pretty early in the relationship.
	Let's say in the first few days.
	Oh, so you did talk about it early.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	All right.
	And what was the conversation then?
	It was pretty much the same as we are now.
	I said that I want to have a family.
	She said she doesn't have the wish to have them, but she's not against them either.
	Okay.
	So why did you, and I mean, I'm sure you guys have a great relationship, but I'm just curious, if you have a mismatch on something as important as having children, why would you continue?
	I guess it's because you've really liked each other, right?
	Yeah, this is one point of view.
	And the other was like I said that I maybe it will become a desire for me.
	I will see, but I can't promise you anything yet.
	And he was like, yes, I want to pursue, but still, so that you know that I still have desire.
	So we said, okay, let's try, let's do it, and then see where the pets takes us.
	Well, it's an interesting, interesting dilemma.
	And of course, you're not the only couples to deal with this.
	So I sympathize with that.
	But let me ask you something.
	It may sound like an odd question, but let me ask you.
	So I assume that you guys have a monogamous relationship.
	You don't sleep with people outside the marriage.
	Or sorry, outside of the relationship.
	So let's say that Bob said, I want to have an open relationship.
	Like, Eo, but anyway, like he said, I want to have an open relationship.
	We sleep with other people.
	Would that be a deal breaker in the relationship?
	This is for you, right?
	Jane.
	Would you say, no, I'm not going to be in a relationship with someone who wants an open relationship?
	Yeah, I would say that.
	Okay.
	Now, if, so, so, Bob, if you, if you said, I want an open relationship, and Jane said, well, you know, no, I don't particularly want it, but I'm open to it.
	We'll think about it.
	We'll see over time or whatever it is.
	That would be, that would be strange, right?
	That would be odd.
	And it would be having someone in a relationship who wanted something fundamentally different.
	If you want an open relationship and she wants to be monogamous, then that would be a difference of values, right?
	Yeah, I agree.
	So I don't personally, I don't agree.
	I'm a moral philosopher fundamentally.
	So I don't agree with a therapist who says to you, Bob, well, if you really loved Jane, then you would do what she wants and give up your desire for children, right?
	Yeah.
	And the reason for that is that if we reverse that and we say to Jane, well, if you really loved Bob, you would decide to have children because that's what he wants.
	And so it doesn't work.
	It cancels out, right?
	Because if you guys have conflicting desires, saying to the man, well, you just have to give up your desires.
	You have to change your mind.
	Otherwise, you don't love Jane.
	You could equally say to Jane, well, you have to give up your desire to not have children.
	Otherwise, you don't love Bob.
	I think that's not rational.
	Well, I know that that's not rational.
	Does that make sense?
	It does, it does, yeah.
	So, Jane, my friend, my new friend.
	Tell me a little bit about your history, your childhood.
	And I'll be honest, I'll be straight up front because I don't want to be manipulative at all.
	The default position is to have children.
	That's the switch that human beings are set to by default, because if we weren't set to that position, none of us would be here, right?
	Your parents decided to have children, their parents decided to have children all the way back four billion years or however you calculate it.
	And so, the default position is to have children.
	And that doesn't mean that it's wrong or bad to not want to have children, but it's not the default position.
	I won't say normal because that's got a whole bunch of implications, which I don't agree with.
	But do you agree that the default position for life has to be to create life?
	Yeah.
	And again, this is not saying there's anything bad or wrong or anything like that, but I'm just curious.
	I mean, maybe you were born with a different switch, or maybe things happened that made you less want to have children.
	But yeah, if you can tell me a little bit about your upbringing and your childhood, I think that would be helpful.
	Yeah, so I was raised in a family with also with, I have brothers.
	So I was living in a city in like quiet area.
	During the growing up, I had a lot of activities.
	I did some music activities, some other church activities.
	However, I were like, we all children, we struggled with a disease.
	And that's why my younger brother and me were quite a lot in a hospital.
	However, now we are healthier and this thing changed, but still, two years ago or like 10 years ago, when I was in the hospital, I had so strong problems that I said, like, I couldn't give to anybody this kind of disease.
	And it's a possibility that also my children have it because I also inherited it.
	And I said, no, no, I like never.
	I don't want to give that to children.
	However, while growing up in a family, I had or still have some problems with my mother because we couldn't get along quite well.
	So, yeah, however, now we have good relationship with brothers and father.
	So this is what I really like.
	But I was not sure if I liked how they were living their marriage.
	And this is also when I said, like, no, I wouldn't like to live like that.
	So maybe it's a combination of both, even the give autoimmune disease and maybe see how family looks like in a traditional way.
	So I'm not sure if now I'm afraid of something or this is just something that is my new reality or truth for me.
	So I'm picking my jaw off the floor.
	Okay, sorry.
	And first of all, I just wanted to say, I mean, audioimmune stuff is really tough.
	I mean, of course, all illnesses are tough by definition, but autoimmune stuff is really tough.
	And I'm really sorry.
	How long were you ill for as a child?
	I mean, I have this from the since I was born.
	And like, you know, you have a period of time that is really like really bad and then it gets really like a lot better.
	And then still like you can predict how you will, when you will get it.
	Yeah.
	So, but still, because of this experience when I was in a hospital, then when I deciding, when I was deciding what to study, I studied like rehabilitation and now i'm working with with kids and things like that so from my experience i saw what i would need when i was a child in hospital so now i'm trying to do this and as a career.
	Yeah, that's very nice.
	Now, Bob, why do you think my jaw is on the floor?
	Why do you think I'm surprised by what Jane is saying?
	If I had to guess, it would be that why did I proceed with the person who had such experience?
	No.
	No?
	No.
	Well, it's because everything that you said at the beginning of our conversation was like, well, you know, she just doesn't want to have kids.
	What did you not mention?
	Yeah, all this, but that was supposed to be an intro.
	I didn't want to give you the whole life story, this intro.
	No, come on.
	Let's be fair here.
	And I think this is interesting.
	I'm obviously not offended or anything, but it's, you know, if someone calls me up and says, you know, well, my kid just doesn't want to play basketball.
	I don't, I mean, it's weird.
	I mean, I played basketball.
	His mother plays basketball.
	His brothers play basketball.
	I don't know why he doesn't want to play basketball.
	And then we have a lengthy conversation about it.
	And at the end, he says, but he's only five foot two.
	I mean, Jane has, your girlfriend has significant genetic concerns about passing on an autoimmune ailment that is very serious to her children, right?
	Yeah.
	Don't you think that's sort of important when you're talking about why she doesn't want to have children?
	I think it is important.
	Yeah.
	But I, I was assuming we would come to this topic anyway in the conversation.
	well, Jane, were you surprised that this wasn't mentioned in whether you want to have children or not?
	Because I'm saying, well, the default position is to have children and why don't you have that?
	And it's like, so, because that's the first question is why don't you want to have children?
	And if it's just like, well, I prefer getting drunk every night, which of course you don't, but if you did, that would be one issue.
	Or if you said, well, I want to travel around the world and learn how to play the mandolin or whatever.
	It's like, okay, well, those are competing interests.
	but if it's a medical reason, that's a whole different thing, isn't it?
	Well, for sure it is.
	But, like, I had, like, huge problems two years ago and even a year ago and Bob was always, like, he was helping me getting some medicines if I need it or, yeah.
	So, he, and when I mentioned, like, if we would have children, you know that there is a big possibility that they will have it as well.
	And, he was just like, I accept you.
	I know that there is a possibility.
	So, yeah, I'm willing to still have children.
	So, I think it's a big thing for us, but still not big enough not to, not to have children.
	well, I mean, let me take your side here, Jane, for a moment.
	Well, I guess this is a question for both of you.
	So, if you have children and the children end up with this autoimmune disorder, who do you think would be taking care of the children the most?
	the most.
	I mean, both would do that.
	The most.
	But, I guess, I guess, sorry to interrupt.
	No, sorry.
	But, I guess I would be this person because I know how, what helped me and how to ask doctors for advice and things like that.
	So, yeah, probably it would be me.
	Yeah.
	and then I'm thinking if I will have problems of this disease, then how can I take care of somebody who also has a disease like this at the same time, you know?
	Well, I mean, generally, if you have children, somebody stays home with the kids and somebody earns the income, right?
	Not really.
	I mean, both can both can earn income.
	Well, not, I mean, the ideal from a medical standpoint or a health standpoint, the ideal is breastfeeding for 18 months.
	Yeah.
	And it's not just the milk.
	It's the whole skin-on-skin contact, the eye contact.
	It builds empathy for the children and all that kind of stuff.
	So if you're going to have two kids spaced one year apart, that's, you know, months plus 18 months, three years plus another year where, you know, you're not exactly going to jump into a big career if you're going to have another kid soon.
	So that's at least four years that one, I mean, the mother, the mother has to stay mostly with the babies.
	And the father usually is the one earning the income.
	That's the I think that's the standard setup or that's the ideal setup because I personally don't see what the point is of having children and then handing them over to strangers.
	That doesn't seem to make any sense.
	That's like getting married and then moving someplace else without your partner.
	Like it just doesn't really make sense.
	So in general, if you were to have children and the children were to have these ailments or illnesses, then you as the mother would be staying home for the most part and taking care of them.
	And your husband, Bob, would be working and you would have the bulk of the child care.
	I mean, you'd have the bulk of the child care anyway.
	But if your children had these genetic autoimmune disorder, then you would be staying home for the first couple of years.
	And because your children would be unwell, you would continue to have to, I assume, stay home and take care of them and bring them to the hospital and talk to the doctors and advocate for them and deal with the issues that came from the ailment.
	So I would guess, I would guess that at least 75%, probably 80% of the child care would fall on Jane, certainly when the kids are, when they're babies.
	But if they were ill, it would be mostly Jane who would be taking care of the children.
	And Bob, this is not because you don't love the children, but somebody has to make some money usually, right?
	Yeah.
	So if you say, I don't mind.
	Sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but if you say to your wife, Bob, well, I don't mind if the children are ill, it's like, well, she's doing 80% of the work.
	I mean, if she's doing most of the work, then doesn't she get most of the say?
	Yeah, of course.
	I mean, we both have a say in this.
	No, but she gets more in a way.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	I mean, because she would be doing the bulk of the work.
	And if the children were ill, that would be her life.
	I mean, Jane, how long did it take for you to, I won't say get cured because I don't really know how that functions in that, but how long, how old were you as a child when you began to have a more normal childhood?
	Oh, wow.
	It was probably high school.
	So that's 15 years, right?
	14 years.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Right.
	So, and how much time and effort did your mother have to put into taking care of you and your brother?
	Well, a lot.
	Really a lot.
	I mean, that's a job, right?
	It's like a full-time job almost.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	And it's also something you can't plan for because as you say, or I think as you said, the ailment comes and goes.
	It's worse than it's better.
	And it's very hard to predict.
	Is that right?
	Yeah, this is true.
	Yeah.
	So your mother couldn't even plan and say, well, the kids will be better for the next six months, so I can have a hobby.
	It's random.
	So her life became very stressful and unpredictable for, you know, I mean, both, how far apart are you and your brother in age?
	We're the youngest one.
	We are one year and a half.
	Okay.
	Yeah, so at least a decade and a half.
	And she doesn't know that it's only a decade and a half because it's impossible to know at the beginning if and when it's going to get better.
	So your mother for like a decade and a half had a full-time job keeping her children alive.
	Yeah.
	Is that a fair way?
	I don't want to be unfair, but isn't that the...
	Now, I don't know about you guys.
	I Obviously, there are some people who are like, well, I don't care.
	It's fine.
	I wouldn't want that job.
	I wouldn't want that job.
	Now, have you talked to geneticists about how likely it is that this could be passed along?
	Well, yeah, it's very likely.
	Hello, Maria.
	So, Bob, help me understand your perspective here.
	I'm having trouble with it.
	I mean, it's very likely that your children will have a crippling genetic disease that is going to be incredibly stressful, time-consuming, emotionally brutal.
	You know, your kid goes into hospital, it's horrible.
	You know, sleepless nights, worry, expense, stress.
	Help me understand your perspective on this.
	I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it.
	I'm just having trouble.
	I mean, I don't know that I've had it.
	It's been a while since I've had a call where I go this far from the beginning to 20 minutes in.
	But yeah, tell me understand your perspective about this, how this is like no problem.
	Yeah, so not really not a problem from my side, but maybe I'm a bit naive in my way of thinking that we would go through, and I think we would succeed.
	I don't know much about this illness apart from what I see in Jane, but I also see that.
	Sorry, did you say you don't know much about this illness?
	I mean, I know what it is about.
	No, no, no, no, I'm not criticizing you.
	I just want to make sure I understood what you said.
	You said you don't know much about this illness.
	Yeah, kind of, yeah.
	Two and a half years.
	Two and a half years.
	That's 30 months.
	You've had to research this.
	How can you not know the most important concern of your partner?
	Help me understand that.
	I know.
	Yeah, I'm trying.
	So I know what it is.
	I know how it works and it affects that there is no cure.
	Yeah.
	Like you don't read articles like medical articles, but follow the news on this.
	And it just is something that we deal with every day.
	I'm sorry, you said it is something you deal with every day?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So this is the major issue that affects your wife's health and you don't know much about it?
	What do you think?
	I should know more about it.
	Well, you yourself said, I don't know much about it, so you must have a standard of knowing a lot about it that you don't fulfill, right?
	Just based on what you said, right?
	Let's ask your partner.
	What does he mean in terms of 100% knowing a lot about it?
	What percentage is Bob at?
	I mean, it's not like that he reads medical articles about that, but like when I had some appointments to doctors, he said that he can come with me if I want.
	He was reading about medicine that could help.
	He read some articles also about that.
	So I think that he did his kind of research, but now that I became a bit better, it's like he doesn't read about it so much.
	But before, when I was worse, he was more into it.
	Well, so, Bob, I mean, you have access to the best source of knowledge about dealing with this illness.
	And you know, and that's not, that's not Jane.
	Who is that?
	Google?
	I'm sorry?
	No, no, not Google.
	Good lord.
	It's just not.
	Have you talked to Jane's parents about what it's like to deal with and manage this illness in children?
	It was a thing that we talked about, but not in the sense that I wanted to specifically talk about this.
	Also, a lot of this stuff was shared by Jane.
	I mean, she told me a lot about how her upbringing was, and yeah, I wanted to know that.
	Great.
	So, if you want to have children with somebody where there's a high likelihood of getting this ailment, I think the first place that you would do is you'd sit down with Jane's parents and say, okay, tell me everything about this.
	What was it like?
	What happened?
	What was the ebb and flow?
	How much did it cost?
	And how much sleep did you lose?
	And I mean, when you have, I mean, I don't have anything, of course, like you have.
	But every parent has had a sick child, and when your child is sick, that's your whole life.
	That's all you do.
	You sit up with the child.
	You put cold compresses on the child's forehead.
	You take the child to the doctor.
	You pray if you're religious.
	You're worried.
	I mean, it's your whole life.
	There's not much else that's going on in your mind when your child is ill, particularly if your child is ill in a dangerous way in this kind of scenario.
	So I suppose from Jane's perspective, I don't want to speak for you, Jane, but I suppose from Jane's perspective, it would be like, you don't know what you're talking about.
	Oh, it'll be fine.
	We'll manage.
	But you don't even know what management is because you haven't asked Jane's parents, and in particular, Jane's mother.
	And I'm not nagging at you about this.
	I'm just saying that Jane's hesitation, I assume, has something to do with the fact that you're just saying it'll be fine without actually finding out what you're talking about, if that makes sense.
	Yeah.
	I think that you have a point, yeah.
	So, and now, obviously, you listen to this show.
	You're all very smart.
	That's great.
	So, no, I mean, I'd put everyone who listens to this show, top 1% of intelligence.
	You're an intelligent guy.
	So what I'm saying, I assume, is quite obvious, right?
	Yeah, not that you say, yeah.
	Well, as a smart guy, as a smart guy, why wouldn't this have been something that you would have done already?
	Because you're a smart guy.
	So it's not like, oh, I can't possibly.
	I mean, it would be like if I want to go into business and I'm going to risk my entire life savings, right?
	Let's say I want to open up a coffee shop, right?
	And I'm trying to convince my wife, hey, we should take our entire life savings and we should open up a coffee shop, right?
	It'll be fine.
	And my wife's father, my father-in-law, ran a coffee shop for 20 years.
	And I never thought of asking him for any advice.
	Wouldn't that be strange?
	Yeah, it is strange, yeah.
	So that's my question.
	I'm sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, I'm thinking what the reason could be that I didn't think of this.
	Well, also it should be it should be Jane's parents'job, just to let you off the hook a little bit.
	Thanks.
	I mean, if I've run, like, let's say that my daughter marries some guy and or is really interested in some guy and I hear that that guy wants to start a podcast, right?
	What would I do?
	You would try to help him.
	Well, yeah, I'd talk to him about it, right?
	So, I guess another question is, Jane, I mean, obviously, you know your parents infinitely better than I do.
	But why do you think that your parents haven't talked to you and Bob about the issue of kids and so on?
	I mean, they are like, we don't want to bother you with anything.
	So if you have a question, come to us and we will likely respond.
	So if Bob would come to ask them questions, they would be like willingly to give them answers, to give him answers.
	But that's not, that's not ideal parenting, right?
	I mean, that would be like, hey, so, you know, hey, honey, my daughter, your husband wants to start a podcast.
	You know, if you guys have any questions, you can blah, blah, blah, right?
	But I would be more proactive, right?
	Wouldn't it be better to be more proactive?
	Yeah, it would be.
	Well, they were.
	We're talking about something a whole lot more important than a podcast, which is the health and well-being of children and a family, right?
	So why do you think your parents haven't said anything?
	I mean, they know you're not living in secret, are you?
	No, no, no.
	Okay, you're not living in secret.
	They know about the existence of Bob.
	They're aware, right?
	Okay.
	Yeah, they are.
	Do you guys live together?
	Yeah, we moved in like in May this year.
	Yeah, so, well, I also mentioned, like, especially two years ago or a year ago, as I mentioned before, that maybe I wouldn't have like to have children because of my disease, because it's now really bad.
	And they were like, oh, you will get better, you will see.
	And then like, you will see, you will have a desire to have family, like, just wait for it.
	And now when I mention, yeah, well, I don't know.
	And they're like, oh, just, yeah, just, you wait for it.
	So I don't think that they really hear me.
	I don't really think that they see this kind of perspective of like, let's talk about this with Bob.
	And well, I don't have this feeling.
	Sorry to interrupt.
	Have they ever asked you, Jane, whether what Bob thinks about children, whether he wants children?
	Have they ever asked about that?
	Yeah, yeah, they asked.
	Okay.
	So they say, does Bob want children?
	And you say what?
	I say that, oh, or they say like, if we are playing with nephew, he also has this, what I mean with this, but it's not that bad.
	However, if they see Bob playing with my nephew, they are like, oh, you're so cute.
	It switches you.
	Like, you should be a dad.
	And they are just like, oh, he has a lot of potential.
	He is good with children.
	Like, just they are giving observations of what they see.
	So, yeah.
	And they are just saying, yeah, yeah, you should have children, get married.
	Things like that.
	That's interesting.
	So why do you think they're not talking about it directly?
	What do you mean by talking directly?
	Well, saying, so, I mean, again, I'm putting myself in, you know, this is the dad's perspective.
	But if my daughter was in her 30s and living with a guy, I would say, well, what's going on?
	Why aren't you married?
	Are you going to have children?
	All of this kind of stuff, right?
	I would say all of that.
	And I guess that's what I'm trying to understand.
	Yeah.
	Well, we also talked about this already.
	And I just said, I don't know if I want them or if I would, yeah, maybe be a good mother.
	No, I didn't say that, but if I would like to have them.
	And they said, yeah, firstly, oh, you will see, you will have this desire.
	And the other thing was like that they were quiet.
	They were like, you know, probably usually for decisions that you make in your life, you're very certain.
	You know the best.
	Like, if you need any question, we are here, but otherwise we won't ask you anymore.
	Yeah, from my perspective, it's like, why don't you are more interested of why or how or whatever?
	They just say, like, if you will need anything, you know where to find us.
	Yeah.
	So they give this kind of support.
	Right.
	But they also know that if you're in your early 30s, that you're only a couple of years away from what's called geriatric pregnancy.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	So do your family, does your family not talk about much at all?
	No, no, no.
	Okay.
	Yeah, no.
	Okay.
	I can tell you why I think, I don't know, obviously, but I can tell you why I think that they are not talking about this.
	Tell us what you think.
	Good idea.
	Well, I think that they want, I mean, sorry.
	Jane, do they want you to get married to Bob?
	Do you think?
	Yeah, generally they want to, like, they have this desire, but also again, they said, like, whatever you will decide.
	It's fine.
	Well, I think parents in general want to see their children get married, don't they?
	Yeah, I think my parents do want to see me get married.
	Do they like Bob?
	Yeah, they really like Bob.
	Okay.
	So, but they've never talked to either of you about getting married.
	Yeah, they said like, like questions like, also, when is your turn?
	Like, when you will you get married?
	Um, yeah, because we do attend some weddings of our friends, and then we, when we discuss how like the night was and the party, and they were like, No, you are next in line.
	When will this happen?
	But they just kind of make jokes, they don't actually sit down and try and make this more like jokes.
	Okay, yes, yes, yes.
	Are there any other family members who've talked to you seriously about getting married or issues with children?
	Yeah, like my brothers, yes.
	Okay, and what do they say?
	Um, they also say, like, you will see, it will come a time, like, I understand you, but you know, like, this is selfish if you decide not to children.
	Oh, so it's about the kids, not the marriage thing.
	Okay, that's fine.
	I was just like, Yeah, no, but yeah, yeah, sorry.
	Sorry, do your brothers, does your brother have children?
	Uh, yeah, yeah, the older one has children.
	And what happened with their illnesses if they had them?
	Um, yeah, the child has had it, um, but it's manageable at the moment, so not a big deal yet.
	Um, yeah, but I think that they hear me and they like they support me in whatever like um I would decide, yeah.
	Okay, okay.
	So I think that I would guess that your parents, Jane, are thinking something like this: that we don't want to address this directly, because if we address this directly, then he might not marry you.
	In other words, if we're direct and honest about how difficult it was to raise two children with an autoimmune disorder, that Bob, well, he might freak out, right?
	He might leave, right?
	Just to correct, she has two brothers, two brothers, sorry about that.
	Okay, and they all have the autoimmune thing, uh, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah.
	So if they're honest and say, well, here's what it cost us, here's how difficult it was, and so on, then they might they might be concerned that if they address it directly and put all their cards on the table, that Bob might not want to go forward.
	And Jane, of course, if you're in your early 30s and you've been with Bob for two and a half years, then this is not for certain, but this is most likely your only chance to, I wouldn't say the only chance to get married, but it's your only chance to get married in the realm of children or with children on the table.
	Because if you wait until you're mid-late 30s and you are, I'm sure you would be, of course, that you're honest about the autoimmune disorder, then a guy who wants to have kids would probably look for somebody without a genetic ailment like this.
	I'm sorry to be so blunt, but I think that your parents probably think that this is really your only chance to get married in this kind of way.
	And if it weren't to work out with Bob, then you'd probably spend a year recovering from the breakup because it's usually half the length of the relationship to recover from it.
	And then you're mid-30s and it becomes progressively more difficult.
	Because most men, particularly successful men, I mean, why do men become successful?
	Well, to have children.
	That's why we are so crazy productive.
	That's why we have all this testosterone.
	And that's why we have this weird focus thing that men do.
	It's, you know, men are successful, particularly as men get older.
	The success is there for children, because when a man has a family and has a wife and kids, 90% of his money goes to his wife and children.
	Now, of course, there are some men who are like, well, all they want to do is rent a yacht and party, but that's kind of weird and damaged and not the norm.
	That's men being kind of selfish and all of that.
	So men who are successful are driven by that success.
	And that success also drives them to want to have children.
	And so I would imagine your parents, Jane, unconsciously are saying, well, if our daughter is going to get a successful man, then it's going to be tricky if she's too old to have children.
	Now, you're not too old to have children, but there is, of course, the autoimmune issue.
	So I would imagine that they don't want to discuss this directly for fear that it might drive Bob away, and that might almost certainly hamper your ability to get married to a successful man.
	I'm just guessing, but that would be my guess.
	Yeah.
	Well, I don't know what they are thinking, but I don't think that this is the thing because sometimes when we were sitting together after lunch and I was asking questions about this disease and how it was, they are talking about it freely.
	They say that it was very hard, that they were many nights, that we didn't sleep and things like that.
	So they are like they express everything about it.
	I don't think that this could be the reason.
	Well, but have they talked about all of that with Bob?
	I mean, not specifically just with him, but like when everybody was around the table.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So they have talked about all of that.
	And why do you think they haven't been more direct with Bob and sat Bob down?
	You know, there's the old question that parents are supposed to ask, particularly fathers, which is, what is your intention?
	What are your intentions with my daughter or with our daughter?
	And why do you think they've been so much hands-off about this?
	This is just how they are like, this is how they behave, how they think.
	I don't know.
	Are they Christians?
	Yeah, they are.
	Yeah.
	And as Christians, what do they think of you guys living together before marriage?
	I mean, probably they want like more that we would get married before, but still they accept our reality.
	Okay.
	And so, Bob, what about your parents?
	What do they think of all of this?
	Yeah, they also want us to get married.
	Especially, my mother asks me directly or says that we should get married, but we have kind of a distance to relationship, me and my parents, because of the childhood.
	So I don't really take their opinions to my heart.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	And are there any other relatives, Bob, that you have on your side of the family, of course, that are talking to you about marriage or children or anything like that?
	Yeah, my grandmother she's similar to Jane's parents.
	She mess m mentions it every now and then, but doesn't really doesn't sit me down and talk about it seriously.
	I would say the most active in this is my aunt.
	She is borderline pushy about it, but she's very like she wants us to be to get married and yeah, she believes in us.
	Okay.
	And tell me a little bit about how you met.
	How we met.
	Yeah.
	So we were going to the same class of dancing, swing dancing.
	Oh, nice.
	And then we locked eyes and then I invited her for some dates.
	We went to hiking, we went to a drink and then just on from there.
	It was funny because I asked her pretty, I mean, pretty, very early.
	After three weeks, if she wants to be my girlfriend, and then I already have some petitions booked, so I was off for two months.
	So we didn't see each other for two months.
	Oh, wow.
	And yeah, that was just like a thing that passed.
	So I mean, it didn't break us, I'd say.
	Okay.
	And what would you say drew you to each other at the beginning?
	I can say for me that I was attracted to her.
	I liked her lively spirit, how to say nature.
	She was a very happy person, easygoing.
	I liked her humor and I wanted to, I see that I wanted to pursue her.
	All right.
	And Jane, what about for you?
	So I was very like, he attracted me because he was very into nature, into getting to know new things about sports.
	And I really liked that he was very deep.
	He was talking about emotions, which was new to me from a guy.
	Yeah, like he was very careful of how I feel, what to say.
	Like, yeah.
	Yeah, like, I really like that he was very, like, he knew what he wanted.
	Also, while he was working, he has everything organized.
	And this is what I really liked.
	On the other hand, he was like very emotional, very active, and as well, easygoing.
	And how much, and I don't have, I don't have the problem with physical attraction.
	That's very important.
	But how much was physical attraction a part of your initial appeal to each other?
	Yeah, for me, it was very high.
	And what is it about his look that you like?
	Well, everything.
	A tiny bit more specific.
	Can't be just his entire being, every single cell, his liver, his kidney.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Yeah, well, I don't know what to say.
	Well, tall, dark, handsome, great.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yeah, yeah.
	So that he's taller than me.
	This is what I like because I'm also quite tall.
	Yeah.
	Oh, so you need a tall guy in a way, right?
	Yes.
	Yes, yes, yes.
	Yeah, like, I don't know, that himself.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	And what about the other way?
	For me?
	Yeah.
	So, for me, of course, it was part of the equation, how physically attractive we are.
	But I also put much more emphasis on her as a person.
	So, like her humor, her good heart.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So, then you said in the first couple of dates, you talked about kids, right?
	Yeah.
	And tell me a little bit about how that conversation went.
	Do you remember?
	Yeah.
	Well, yeah, like Bob mentioned that he would like to marry and to start a family.
	I said that I might or might not, that I can't promise him anything, but I'm open for both options.
	So, yeah, we were very like we said everything as it was.
	We didn't hide anything.
	Okay.
	Now, Jane, when it comes to being open to having children, I was in the business world for a long time, so I'm used to putting numbers.
	I'm used to putting numbers to things.
	So I'm not sure what it means when you say you would be open to it.
	So what percentage open?
	Like, is it 50-50?
	You want kids?
	Half a dick, you flip a coin, you're happy either way, or what does that mean?
	Yeah, I would say that 50-50 would be the percentage.
	Okay.
	That's a difficult percentage to work with.
	I know, I know, I know, I know.
	Okay, I know.
	How would I mean, of course, this is the fundamental question, and I know that there's no easy answer, but when I have a 50-50, I add up the pluses, I add up the minuses, two columns, you know, the usual thing where you try to quantify things.
	And so how would you decide?
	If something's 50-50, it's tough to decide, right?
	If it's 99-1, it's pretty easy to decide.
	But if something's 50-50, it's very difficult to decide.
	So how do you decide it?
	Well, probably I haven't decided yet.
	You have to decide or nature makes the decision for you.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	I know, I know.
	Like what I think that we try to prolong the decision when somebody from the sky will say you should do this, but I know that this won't happen.
	Yeah, so probably we are just prolonging the decision.
	So you haven't told me how you're going to decide.
	And this is both of you.
	I mean, but how are you going to decide?
	Yeah, we were thinking of like setting a date.
	I mean, until, for example, we have to decide until December.
	No, no, but a date doesn't help you decide.
	That just tells you when to decide, how?
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, I'm not saying flip a coin.
	No, I'm kidding.
	But how do you decide?
	Well, this is also why we went to a couple's therapy.
	Yeah, but you got kind of bullied, I think, a tiny bit, right?
	But if you really loved her, you know, like that's, you don't really love her.
	It's like, you know, that pair bonding is for the purpose of having children, right?
	I mean, so the idea that love is somehow completely separate from having children, it's like somebody who's taking a bicycle on the road saying the road is just for me.
	It's like, no, the road is built for cars.
	I guess you can use it.
	But the purpose of marriage and pair bonding and sexual attraction and love is all for children, right?
	That's what it's for.
	And so the idea that you would have a love completely independent of children is not, it's not rational.
	It's not, it's not true.
	I mean, you can love people who don't have children and so on, but male and female, sexual, romantic, marriage, pair bonding is for what?
	Why do we have it?
	For children.
	So you can't just pull the two apart and say, well, you have to love her independent of whether she can have children or wants to have children.
	It's like, because that love only exists so that we stay together for the best environment for children, right?
	But can I add something?
	Of course, yeah.
	Then what about the couples who decided not to have children and they still love each other?
	I mean, that's fine, but that's not what she was saying.
	I mean, if I understand the therapist correctly, and I'm not trying to disser, I'm just telling you the sort of logical analysis.
	So if you guys both decided not to have children, right?
	And you both said, you know, the risk is too great.
	We have a good time.
	Well, you wouldn't be calling me, right?
	Yeah.
	So you, Bob, want to have children.
	And you, Jane, are hesitant for reasons I can completely understand, hesitant to have children.
	So as far as I understand it, the therapist said to you, Bob, well, if you really loved her, you just wouldn't have children.
	Or something like that.
	Unless I misunderstood something.
	Yeah, it was basically because I am thinking of not being with her because I want to have children.
	This is not true love from my side to her.
	Well, but that's saying that if you love being a father and you love the idea of having children, that you have to give that up for children.
	Yeah, this is my favorite.
	So you, you, I mean, saying that it's anti-love to not be with a woman who doesn't want to have children.
	Well, you want to love your children.
	So it's not anti-love.
	You want to be a father?
	You want to play with your children?
	You want to throw them up and down in the air while your mother, oh, sorry, while their mother gets nervous, right?
	I mean, you want to go through that whole, you want to love your children.
	It's not anti-love.
	So, and, you know, I got to tell you guys, man, it's a long life if you don't have kids.
	Because, I mean, you guys are young, right?
	And if you don't have kids, and I'm not making an argument either way, I'm just telling you things that maybe your parents should have told you because I'm old enough to be your dad.
	Oh, God, I'm getting old.
	But if you don't have kids, I mean, how many of the people in your social circle are having children?
	I mean, pretty much all of them.
	Right.
	No, not all of them.
	No.
	What percentage, would you say?
	70?
	70%?
	Yeah.
	Now, the remaining 30%, do they not want children or are they just not in the right place to have children?
	Yeah, some of them don't want to have children and some are just like, probably not, but we'll see what happens.
	Okay.
	So as you age, most people have children.
	And as you age, you just have less and less in common with people who have children because their lives revolve around their children and you just don't have much in common.
	It's like trying to join a chess club when you don't really play chess.
	And so you will end up with less and less in common with the people who have children.
	And also, as you get older, it is important to be concerned about the challenges of regret.
	And this is for both of you, but I think more for Bob because you don't have the genetic issue.
	And again, I don't know whether you guys should stay together or have children or whatever, right?
	But I will say this, that let's say 10 years down the road, Bob, you wake up one day, and this happens.
	I've talked to people where this has happened too.
	And you wake up one day and it's like, oh my, God, did I miss out?
	I really, really want to have children.
	And Jane is too old, but you can still have children.
	And that's a tough thing.
	They call it baby rabies.
	I don't know if you've heard the phrase.
	Baby rabies.
	And it often hits women in their 30s, the way they just are desperate to have a baby and they describe it as always being hungry or always having to pee.
	It's just this urge or this ache.
	And it happens to men as well.
	And it can be an odd thing.
	Like you can just be walking in the park and you can look over and you can see a guy, maybe he looks a little bit like you, and he's got two or three kids and he's pushing them on the swing and they're climbing up.
	And you're like, that could be me.
	That could have been me.
	And that possibility of regret, I don't know whether you'll have it or not, but it's important to look at the possibility that you might have it, if that makes sense.
	You might have that kind of regret.
	And if you have that kind of regret, then it might end the relationship anyway.
	Because you might be like, oh, you know, and it's almost impossible to avoid this.
	You know, well, if it wasn't for you, I would have had kids.
	And like, I'm not saying it's fair or right, but it is something that happens to people, right?
	And so that I can't answer for you.
	And it's almost impossible to answer in a way.
	But I would certainly say it is something that you really need to consider, which is that possibility of regret.
	Because however, you know, fun and charming and nice your life is now, because you're young, you know, we all get old.
	And when we get old, it's nice to have new life around.
	It's nice to have grandchildren.
	It's nice to have a house full of people.
	And the only way to really have a house full of people when you're old is to have a family.
	I'm not saying you won't have people, anyone in your house, but the only way to really have a house full of people and have that kind of life when you get old is in general to have kids.
	And again, whether you do that or not, but that's, I think it's an important consideration.
	And I mean, I always wanted to be a father.
	And I mean, I worked in a daycare and I get along very well with kids and all of that kind of good stuff.
	And I always wanted to be a father.
	And so I'm very glad that I had the opportunity to do that, of course.
	And if I hadn't had the opportunity to do that, I would have missed out on some sort of very great and deep and real pleasures.
	So I'm concerned that you guys are drifting and that you're enjoying every day, which is fine.
	You know, we've got to enjoy the day.
	I get that.
	But I'm concerned that you just aren't making those tough decisions and you're just kind of letting life make those decisions for you, which it will.
	And it won't be that long.
	You know, another couple of years and, you know, mid-30s, do you want to start, especially with the hesitations?
	And I don't, I mean, just personally, again, I'm pushing 60, so forgive me for being an old guy on a mountaintop, but I don't really regret the decisions I made.
	I regret the decisions I didn't make.
	If that makes sense.
	Yeah, I think that, yeah, we both agree that we are kind of delaying the tough decisions.
	Okay, so why do you think you're doing that?
	Because it's tough, to be honest.
	Well, sure.
	But I mean, I understand that, but it's also, I mean, you know, it's also tough if you don't.
	Yeah, it's both ways.
	Yeah.
	For me, I'll say that I don't want to, in a way, give up.
	I'm not really giving up.
	It's just making a decision.
	But I would very much want to have children with Jane.
	But or concerned that I might be too soon, too early to leave.
	So you want to have children with Jane and you're concerned that it might be too early to leave?
	That if I exit, I mean, if I leave her too early, that I might make a mistake because two and a half years.
	Hang on, hang on.
	So two and a half years.
	That's not a rush.
	You guys have had two and a half years.
	That's a long time.
	Most of her ancestors had to decide to get married in three months.
	Two and a half years is a long time in a relationship.
	I mean, tell me if you disagree.
	No, I agree.
	I agree.
	I think we also have to count in the disease and all that happening.
	Well, no, no, but that's a different category.
	It's just if you tell me, well, two and a half years to make a decision about a relationship is too soon.
	And I'm like, it's really not.
	You have all the information that you need to make the decision.
	And again, I don't know what the decision should be.
	But saying it's too soon, if it was like two months into the relationship, I'd say, yeah, I can see that.
	But not two and a half years.
	Yeah, I don't think that it's too soon because it's really not.
	But I think that, like, we both feel that we, like, we feel more than we did in, like, previous relationships.
	Sorry, you feel, I didn't quite catch that.
	Sorry, you feel what?
	So we feel that we feel more like that this is the right place to be, that we are more like confident that it's something more than just that it was before.
	That we're meant for each other.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	So the relationship is better than what you've had before.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	But I don't know what we are waiting for.
	Well, you're waiting.
	No, I can tell you what you're waiting for.
	You're waiting to make a decision about children.
	Yeah.
	I mean, if, okay, let me ask you this.
	Have you talked to a geneticist and gotten the more exact odds of the likelihood of your children having this genetic disorder?
	No, we haven't done that.
	Oh, guys.
	Why not?
	Because you can get all of these things tested.
	I don't know how good it is.
	I mean, I assume it's somewhat decent, but you can get all of these stuff tested.
	So why wouldn't you say, you know, here's my cheek swab?
	Here's your cheek swab.
	Give us the numbers, Doc.
	Well, yeah, I was speaking to doctors about this even before, and they say, well, yeah, there is a chance.
	You don't know.
	It's a chance.
	There's a chance you could win the lottery.
	What does it mean?
	There's a chance you get hit by a meteor, but it's not the same as a chance you could survive jumping out of an airplane, but I'd like to know the actual numbers.
	Yeah, but I don't think that they know them.
	Well, no, the doctor's saying, hang on.
	So a doctor won't know these things, but a genetic specialist would, wouldn't they?
	I mean, your doctor can't look at you guys and eyeball you and hold up his thumb and measure your phrenology and tell.
	But I think, again, I'm no expert on this, but as far as I understand it, you can go to geneticists and you can both give your genetics and they can give you a number.
	from what I know and I know that I have said before that I don't know much but I don't think there are any tests for this Yeah, no, genetic, yeah.
	There are.
	Okay, so we can.
	I'm sorry.
	Sorry, Bob.
	You're saying there are no genetic tests, and Jane is saying that there are genetic tests.
	No, I said I don't think that now that she said that there are, we will do that.
	Guys, okay.
	I need you to pull your heads out of your armpits because we're talking about love and life and marriage and children.
	You have got to stop avoiding issues.
	Get to a geneticist, get a number.
	If the number is 5%, does that affect your decision?
	Yeah, it does.
	If the number is 95%, does that affect your decision?
	Of course.
	Right.
	Would you bet on anything without knowing the odds?
	So that's what I need to understand is where the passivity is coming in.
	Thank you.
	Where this, like, well, we're just going to hang around and we're going to date and we're going to live together and we're going to chug along with our lives.
	But the most important information that you need is a two-digit number.
	Percent likelihood of this mutation being passed to the children.
	Do I have that right?
	Yes, so I never thought that there is a test and that you can like measure what's the chance of your children having this disease.
	Sorry, I didn't quite catch that thought.
	Okay, so I said that I didn't thought of this if there is a test that you can take and see the I don't believe you for a second.
	I love you to death, man, but you're not telling me the truth.
	Two and a half years, this has been the most important question in your relationship.
	Is that fair to say?
	Yeah, from your point of view, yeah, but from mine, not that much.
	Well, certainly, Bob, for you, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	So for you, the most important question is having children.
	And it's important because of how much you love Jane.
	If you didn't love Jane, it wouldn't be an important question because you wouldn't be together.
	If you didn't love her very much, you just break up, right?
	But you love her a lot.
	And so you need that number.
	Now, saying, well, I don't know.
	It didn't, you know, I mean, come on.
	You're an intelligent guy.
	You know that there's genetic testing, right?
	Yeah.
	And so then the question is, and I'm not trying to be a big nag here.
	I'm just genuinely curious.
	So that's your big question.
	And why not try to answer it?
	Yeah, I'm thinking it's the same reason that I'm trying to avoid making the decision.
	and Thank you.
	This is my first guess.
	Okay, so if you get the number and you're scared to get, if you're getting the number, you're scared of it being like 90% likely that the genetic ailment will pass along, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So, and listen, I mean, obviously, that's a difficult thing, but tell me the major or the most important difficult difficulty for that for this disease.
	Well, let's say you get, I don't think it would be the case, but what do I know, right?
	But let's say that you get the answer back that based upon the combination of your genetics, it's 90% likely that your children will have this ailment, right?
	So let's say you get that.
	Then tell me about the difficulties for you.
	And again, I understand them, but I want to just make sure I understand them from your perspective.
	Yeah.
	My thoughts, if I would get that number, is that, yes, there will be most certainly this illness with my children.
	But at the same time, I saw like with her nephew that it's really not impacting his life.
	And then Jane's brother kind of got rid of this disease in a way.
	So it's not like 100% chance that this will be very bad for the child.
	Well, I don't know.
	Again, I'm not a geneticist, but I have some doubt that they would be able to tell you how bad it could be.
	I think they would only be able to tell you the probability.
	Again, Jane, you know a lot more about this than I do, I assume, but is that a fair statement?
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	So, why avoid this information?
	Yeah.
	Excellent.
	I honestly think I didn't think of it.
	No.
	No, I can't give you that because I can't treat you as an idiot.
	I just can't.
	I won't do it.
	I won't do it.
	I know you don't.
	I won't do it.
	And you're not.
	You're not.
	Because it's blindingly obvious, right?
	It is now.
	All right.
	So I think that you both have been almost colluding about this because this is the most obvious and essential information to get.
	Because if something's 50-50, you can't decide.
	Like, nothing in life is actually 50-50.
	But let's say that something is exactly 50-50.
	It's impossible to make a decision.
	So, Jane, when you said it's 50-50, I'm like, I bet it's not.
	But you make it 50-50 because then it becomes impossible to make the decision.
	If everything is perfectly balanced, like let's say that you don't have a GPS and you come to a road, the road goes left and the road goes right, and you have no idea which way to go.
	Is there any rational way to make that decision?
	I mean, I could ask somebody.
	Let's just say you're driving and there's cars behind you and you've got to go and you've got to just drive.
	Yeah.
	There's no way to make, you just, I don't know, left or right, you know, but there's no way to make that decision.
	So when people say 50-50, what they mean is procrastination.
	I mean, yeah, in some point, of course, but in the length, yeah, but...
	But I think like we are both doing some steps in order to find out for ourselves what to do.
	It is not just like that we are lying and doing nothing about it.
	But yeah.
	Okay, so hang on.
	But I'm sorry to interrupt.
	But the most important step you need today is to find the number.
	Well, for me, I mean, for Bob, maybe, but I didn't think about this because I was just like, it's too hard at the moment for me to live with because I had like really, like, it was tough with the disease.
	So I just like, I don't care.
	Like, I just want to survive.
	So I didn't really think about our other options at all.
	Well, but I, you know, I'm sorry to interrupt.
	And I would put that this is a mildly critical thing, I suppose, but also it's an encouraging thing.
	And again, it's just my opinion.
	But Jane, I think that's a deficiency of love for Bob.
	Yeah.
	Because I, Mimi, I, I had the disease, and I hugely sympathize with that.
	And I don't want the information.
	But Bob needs the number.
	So I don't know.
	I mean, if I was the, I'm not a therapist, right?
	But I would ask, rather than saying to Bob, well, if you really loved Jane, you just wouldn't have kids.
	And it's like, that's not really an answer.
	But I would say to you, Jane, Bob needs that number.
	Because if the number is 95% and then you sit down with your parents and they say, oh, my gosh, it was really the toughest thing that we ever did.
	And, you know, three kids and, oh, my gosh, it was brutal.
	Then Bob can make a decision, right?
	But you know a lot more about this illness than Bob does.
	You're not getting the number and you're not sitting down with Bob and your parents and saying, okay, let's really talk about what this means.
	Because for Bob, it's kind of abstract.
	You know, you need to spend a weekend with your parents and they need to go over everything that happened so that Bob can make a more informed decision, right?
	And would that, however difficult that might be for Bob in the short run, if Bob says, you know, gosh, I see why you don't want to have children, or I see why you're hesitant to have children, I understand that.
	And having talked to your parents, I think I really understand how difficult it is.
	So I love you and let's not have children, right?
	That could be one outcome, right?
	You could find out that the probability for whatever genetic combination reasons, you could find out that the probability of this ailment being transferred to the children is very low, which also would be helpful information for both of you, right?
	And you know, this is to you, Jane, you know a lot more about all of this than Bob does, but you are not giving him or getting to him the information that he needs.
	Now, again, Bob, you could have said, listen, let's just do some genetic testing and find out what the odds are.
	There's no point.
	There's no point just guessing and thinking in 50-50.
	Like, if you don't know which way to turn left or right of the car, you look at your GPS.
	It's going to say left or right, right?
	Yeah, of course.
	You need to gain some information.
	Right.
	So you're either avoiding.
	You're avoiding information.
	And again, the two primary sources of information, I think, genetic testing and talking to Jane's parents.
	Yeah, for us, it was going to the couples therapy.
	The first thing.
	Well, but couples therapy doesn't give you any new information.
	And see, couples therapy can't help you.
	It kind of does.
	No, it doesn't give you new information because it doesn't change.
	If it's 50-50, nobody can tell you what to do.
	If something is literally 50-50, nobody can tell you what to do.
	If it's 51-49, oh, well, okay, then there's, you know, a bit of pressure on one way versus the other.
	But, you know, if you're on that fork in the road, right, it's going left, it's going right, and you're trying to get to a town, and then there's a sign on the left one that says, town this way, you go that way, right?
	But if you don't have any science, then you just, I don't know, go left or go right, but nobody can tell you what is the right decision because you just don't have the information.
	And that's what 50-50 is designed to paralyze.
	And there's a reason that for two and a half years, you guys have avoided.
	And look, I sympathize.
	I'm not, please understand.
	I'm not nagging.
	We all have this tendency.
	So I sympathize and I understand, but I just want to be clear that you guys have specifically avoided the information that you need to make this decision.
	And the really interesting question is, why?
	Generally, we don't avoid information we think is going to have a good outcome.
	I mean, if somebody mails us a letter that says you've won the lottery and we believe it's a real thing, do we hesitate to open it?
	That's good news.
	Maybe you want some money, right?
	You open it, right?
	Yeah.
	If you need a new credit card and they mail you a new credit card, you don't like, oh, I don't want to open that.
	Maybe you get some unexpected bill and you're like, ooh, I don't want to open that.
	I want to see the, I don't want to see the number, right?
	So generally, we avoid information that would be negative.
	And so that's what I need to ask, which is what is the negative that you're avoiding?
	And again, I'm not saying there isn't one.
	I'm just want to know what it is for you.
	I would say it makes sense what you're just saying, which you said that we don't want to find out if we don't want to continue because that would mean like breaking up and it would be painful for both of us.
	It would be painful for both of you, for sure.
	Now, let me ask you this, my friend Bob.
	Let me ask you this.
	There's a reason the therapist said, sacrifice your interests for Jane.
	And that's the true test of love.
	You've got to give up wanting to have children because that means you love her, right?
	So that's called white knighting.
	So white knighting is when the man is just like, well, I'll do anything to make the woman happy.
	And I have no needs of my own.
	And if there's any conflict between my needs and the woman's needs, I will nobly sacrifice my needs just to make her happy.
	And, you know, that's a sort of kind of caricature and exaggeration.
	But that's kind of a thing, right?
	Now, when you were growing up, I know you said you weren't close to your parents, but when you were growing up, did you see that?
	Was your father that way?
	Did your father defer to your mother and sacrifice his own needs or his own preferences?
	Did she run the show?
	Yes, yes.
	I think so.
	Okay, what's give me an example of that just so I know.
	Give me something that's vivid for you in that so I get a sense of what you were exposed to.
	My first thought is that When there were times when they disagreed on something, my mother would escalate emotionally on the topic, and then she would just let go because he didn't want to escalate.
	Oh, so she bullied him.
	Emotionally, yeah.
	I get that she didn't hold his hand in the toilet.
	He didn't put his head in the toilet, but she was a bully in that she would escalate until he gave way.
	This is how I saw it.
	Yeah, I see.
	Well, I mean, there's nobody else here, so we have to go with what you saw.
	I don't know where the objective facts exist in the universe, but we have our perceptions.
	Okay.
	And do you remember a time when your father got his way over the objections of your mother?
	It was, yeah, there were times, but the end result was not good, I think, in the end.
	Please give me an example of that, if you could.
	So let's say the only way I saw my father, let's say, winning argument in a way that we would go with his opinion is in the aftermath, my mother would still be like disappointed and angry and naggy, nagging him.
	And he would just say, I don't care, we're going my way.
	So he didn't get his way.
	I mean, not fully, yeah, but I don't know that.
	I don't know what not fully means.
	Nobody ever fully gets their way.
	In a way that, let's say, give an example, my father wanted to go hiking.
	My mother would like to go to the beach.
	And then that just, we just drove to the mountains, even though my mother was nagging him and being suffer.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Okay.
	So yeah, we did go to hiking, but at this expense, somewhat bully.
	Okay.
	And did that continue?
	Do you know if, I mean, you say you're not close, but you know, that never changed, I assume.
	I think now that they are alone, they get along better.
	But I know that there are still topics in their lives that they don't want to touch or go to or discover.
	And how did they discipline the kids?
	Sorry?
	How did they discipline the kids?
	Us?
	Yeah.
	Spanking was used like, let's say, five times in our lives.
	But mostly the thing was that my brother was also mentally ill and there was he was physically and emotionally abusive toward me.
	My parents didn't really prevent that.
	This is the main reason why I'm not close to them now.
	So in a way, they weren't really.
	What was the question?
	Right.
	I'm sorry.
	I'm sorry to hear that.
	What do you mean by mentally ill?
	So when he was born, he couldn't breathe for some time, and then part of his brain died out and he was mentally less capable.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Less capable.
	Oh, so he was developmentally delayed.
	So it wasn't like he had depression or what some people would call like he had a physical brain injury from lack of oxygen.
	Is that right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Oxygen.
	Yeah.
	I mean, I assume, was he tested?
	I mean, did he get an IQ diagnosis?
	I don't think so.
	He finished some lower school, but that was it because he couldn't do more complex work.
	Oh, gosh.
	I'm really sorry.
	That's very tough.
	It is.
	That is very tough.
	And is he still living with your parents?
	Yeah, he is.
	He cannot live on his own.
	So they're taking care of him.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Well, okay.
	All right.
	Again, very, very sorry about all of that.
	That is very tough indeed.
	It is very tough indeed.
	Thank you.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So, Jane, do you know this?
	You know all of this about Bob, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Okay.
	So you know that Bob grew up in a situation where he could not exercise his willpower.
	He could not exercise his will or free choice.
	Yes.
	So when you give him something that's 50-50, that kind of is like some elements of his childhood.
	Yeah.
	You see what I mean?
	Yeah.
	He can't choose.
	Now, so listen, this is, I mean, an important relationship principle is to find out what happened to your partner when your partner was little.
	Right.
	And of course, in this case, you found out that Bob was not able to make a choice and that he saw his mother dominate his father, right?
	Now, what is the most important thing to do for Bob being his girlfriend, knowing that that's the fact?
	What's the most important thing you need to do?
	Well, now it's...
	Yeah, now I mean, now when you met him, when you, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Well, regardless of the topic, he needs to have a space where he can talk about what he thinks when he can search for the information, share the information, and be accepted in opinion.
	So you very much need to make sure that Bob has maximum capacity to exercise his choices.
	Yeah.
	And I'm sorry to like corner you.
	Have you been doing that?
	But I mean, tell me how that's been part of your relationship.
	Because we all have to adapt to the difficulties that our partners had, and they should adapt to our difficulties in childhood.
	So you know that Bob was bullied and Bob was not allowed to make choices and make decisions, right?
	You know that.
	And so how has that been your approach to try and make sure as much as possible that he gets more of an ability to make choices and decisions?
	I mean, we talk about it, like whenever we have to make some decision.
	Like, for example, where would we like to go for a trip?
	Like nothing, it's not big of a deal.
	So, yeah, I asked him, did you do a research?
	What do you want to do?
	I did a research, so then we are talking of what to do.
	I asked him, why would you like to go there?
	What would you like to see?
	Why?
	Like, I give him questions.
	I try to listen to him, to give him space to express, but also respect his silence when he would love to be like in his own space for a while.
	So probably doing both things.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	So with regards to his desire to have children and knowing that he has a very tough, he was modeled on you do what the woman wants.
	Right.
	So if there's any conflict between Bob and you, his programming from childhood is to do what you want.
	Like his father did, right?
	Yeah.
	So knowing that with regards to children, How have you tried to help Bob make that decision?
	Well, I was talking about what I know about this disease and how it's how I was like how I was dealing with it.
	We talk about it.
	talk about different situations that I deal with in the workplace.
	Like I ask him about opinion, what would you do if like it's it's also important for me to talk about these topics.
	So it's not like that I try to avoid the topic, but I like I also share the opinion.
	Yeah, but it's not now about Bob.
	So yeah, well, yeah, like that.
	I invite him when I go to babysit some friends' babies or like I always say, do you want to go?
	Let's like let's play with them.
	Let's go together.
	Well, that's.
	I think that when we talk about it, she's always very honest about it.
	And she doesn't like shy away from this topic.
	Well, okay.
	So let me ask you this.
	If the end result of you thinking about this for a quarter century is 50-50, how do you think that affects Bob?
	Well, in both, like both affects.
	I know, no, I'm asking about Bob.
	Yeah.
	Of course it affects both.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	I mean, he would continue to like do things that he likes them now.
	He would prolong this decision even more.
	But I don't think that he would be okay with it.
	I think he would like to decide.
	And I think that he would like to decide.
	Okay.
	Do you think that what you're saying makes much sense at the moment?
	Sorry to be to be direct.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	You're just saying stuff, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Well, yeah, I'm trying to think what to say.
	That's fine.
	That's fine.
	Okay.
	So if the end result of you thinking about something for a quarter century is 50-50, and you know that Bob was raised to be completely indecisive and to follow the lead of a woman, then you're in a state of no decision.
	Yeah, because I also don't decide, right?
	Well, I suppose we could put it that way, but you are deciding because you know that if you get genetic data, that you will have the information that you need.
	So you're deciding to avoid that.
	And you're keeping things at 50-50.
	And now, if Bob had been raised with more decisive parents or a more decisive father, if that makes sense, then Bob would have said, no, we can't do 50-50.
	Like, we need to get the data.
	I need to make a decision.
	I need to prioritize things.
	Love you to death, but I need to make decisions whether we decide to stay together or not.
	I need the data.
	I need, right?
	But he's not used to that because his father was pushed around and bullied by his mother.
	Now, of course, I'm not saying, I just want to be clear.
	I'm not saying that you're like his mother and it's the same or anything like that.
	But I'm just saying that that's his pattern or his history, if that makes sense.
	I really loved that you mentioned this because I would really love to see that he is like, you know what, I really need this decision.
	Let's make it.
	Let's be clear.
	I know what I want and I want to do it.
	Like I want to check things out.
	So yeah, I would love him to be like that.
	Like, yeah, I need information.
	Let's try.
	Let's try to get this information to do this.
	I love you to death, but I don't believe you for a second.
	Not even for a second.
	No, no, not damn it for a tiny split second.
	No, because it's like I have years and years to buy a car and I finally end up doing a lot of research and it takes me years and I finally end up buying a convertible, right?
	Like a car with an open top.
	And I drive that car around for two and a half years.
	And then I say to someone, oh, I would love it if this car was a minivan.
	Would you believe me?
	Yeah, I would say, okay, so what's your next step?
	No, you wouldn't believe me.
	Because you'd say to me, if you wanted a minivan, why did you spend years researching and test driving and then driving around a sports car?
	Yeah, because then you were thinking before that this is what you like.
	So you went with what you thought.
	Well, but if I kept the sports car while saying I really wished it was a minivan, what would you say to me?
	Yeah, go for it.
	You'd say, well, get rid of the sports car and get the minivan, right?
	Yeah.
	Well, stop saying you wish the sports car was a minivan, right?
	So saying, I wish Bob was fundamentally different, which is what you're saying, I don't believe you because you chose Bob.
	And that's why I asked earlier, right?
	I asked, it's not a trap.
	I asked earlier what attracted you to each other.
	And you said all of these positive, wonderful things, right?
	And now saying, well, I chose Bob and I've been with Bob for two and a half years and he's the greatest guy ever.
	But boy, I really, really wish he was different.
	Now, so saying, I wish, okay, let me ask you, Jane.
	This is the big question.
	Okay.
	In your family, was your mother or your father more in charge or were they equal?
	Mother.
	There you go.
	There you go.
	So that's why.
	That's why you have this compatible.
	I'm not saying it's the only reason you're together.
	But you guys both grew up with dominant mothers, right?
	And you chose Bob because you guys, your histories fit together.
	You chose Bob because he doesn't do what you now say you want him to do.
	And let me give you, I can tell you, I can prove this to you in one second, right?
	Yes.
	Right.
	So if Bob said, all right, up, honey, we're going to a geneticist.
	We're going to get the data on this.
	How would you feel?
	Yeah, let's do it.
	No, come on, be honest.
	How would you feel?
	I know how you would feel.
	How would you feel?
	No, you know, because I really, like, I really want also to do a decision because it's not like for me, it's not okay anymore to be 50-50.
	So let's say, let's say, let's say within a month or two of dating, Bob said, you know, I really, I really like you.
	I'm concerned about this genetic stuff.
	So let's go get tested and let's figure out what the odds are of us passing this stuff on to the kids.
	What would you feel?
	I mean, I would say it's too early, but yeah, I mean, why not?
	Why not?
	If it's so obvious, why not?
	Then why haven't you done it?
	I don't think that this was the only issue.
	No, no, you're not.
	You don't have to answer my question, but you can't just ignore it, right?
	So if you say this is so important and good, why haven't you done it?
	I think you pushed a bit of that.
	Thank you.
	I'm sorry?
	Yeah, like, yeah, I will keep thinking about your questions.
	Well, and so the question is, if you wanted Bob to be assertive or, I don't know, maybe even a little dominant or something like that, then why would you choose a guy who was pushed around his entire childhood and doesn't really have those skills?
	Or if you did want that from Bob, then you would date Bob and you'd say, Bob, you know, you're a great guy.
	Tell me a little bit about your childhood.
	And he'd say, oh, you know, my dad was pushed around by my mom and she was bullied and I was bullied.
	And it's like, oh, okay.
	I like a man who's kind of assertive.
	And clearly you didn't learn that assertiveness.
	In fact, any kind of assertiveness, Bob, when you were a kid was punished.
	So I like a guy who's a bit more assertive.
	I love everything else about you, but we're going to have to work on this assertiveness stuff.
	And then you'd try and figure out how to do that, right?
	Is anything like that happen?
	I think she should give him space.
	No, no, no.
	No, because if she likes you to be assertive and she notices that you're not assertive, and then she finds out from your childhood, Like if I married a woman or I was dating a woman and I desperately wanted her to learn Japanese, right?
	And she didn't grow up learning Japanese, I would say, oh, I would love for you to learn Japanese.
	Maybe we could do that together or maybe I could help you learn Japanese or something like that, right?
	But if I really want a woman who speaks Japanese, I should just choose a woman who speaks Japanese, right?
	I shouldn't choose a woman who doesn't speak Japanese and then two and a half years later say, oh, I just, I really wish she spoke Japanese.
	Makes sense.
	And so I don't like it.
	And personally, I'm just going to be, you know, it doesn't mean I'm right, but I'm going to be honest about what I think, which is I don't like it when people say about their partner, I wish they were fundamentally different from who they are.
	So Jane, if you say about Bob, I really wish he was assertive or this or that or the other.
	Well, why did you choose him then?
	I think you chose him because you're both familiar with the woman being in charge.
	And that's what you grew up with.
	That's the language you speak.
	And I bet you that's how you resolve differences of opinion or you avoid them.
	Now, obviously, Jane, I'm not saying you're just like his mom.
	I'm not saying that at all.
	And I'm not saying you're just like your mom.
	But we all have conflicts in relationships.
	And the question is, how do we resolve them?
	And the best way to resolve them is for both people to state their needs and to try and figure out something that works for both people, right?
	I mean, if you're selling a house, then you say, well, this is what I want for it.
	And the other person says, well, this is what I'll pay for it.
	And you try to meet somewhere in the middle, right?
	Something you can both live with.
	So I would guess, though, because of Bob's history and your history too, Jane, for which I have sympathy for both of you, of course, right?
	But I think that what happens is you don't have open conflicts, but you avoid information to the benefit of Jane.
	And this is not conscious.
	This is not anyone being mean.
	These are just the habits.
	You don't want to have open conflicts like your parents had.
	But I still don't know that you have figured out how to resolve differences of opinion.
	And I think that's the fundamentals of avoiding this stuff.
	I mean, I can't conceive in my life of ever saying, I wish my wife was fundamentally different from who she is.
	Can I ask something?
	Of course.
	So if I understand correctly, you're saying that we don't negotiate our needs.
	And because of that, we are kind of drifting.
	Yeah, you do.
	You are not negotiating the foundations.
	And it doesn't fundamentally have anything to do with whether you have children or not.
	That's a separate issue.
	What it fundamentally has to do with is recognizing why you chose the other person.
	"Jane, if you wanted an assertive man, why wouldn't you choose an assertive man?" And I can tell you it's nothing to do with you, fundamentally.
	The reason why you didn't choose an assertive man is that your mom didn't want you to.
	Because let me ask you this, Bob.
	Have you ever had any conflicts with Jane's mother?
	Not any big ones, no.
	Have you ever seen Jane's mother treat Jane negatively?
	Yes, I did.
	Okay.
	Now, you love Jane.
	And if Jane's mother, if you were, and listen, there's nothing wrong with who you are, right?
	I mean, there's pluses and minuses to all of this stuff.
	But if you were some major assertive guy and you saw Jane's mother treating her negatively, what would you do?
	I would stop her.
	You'd say, whoa, whoa, whoa, what are you doing?
	Right.
	So, Jane, for example, when you said, I wish that Bob was assertive, right?
	That's disrespectful to Bob.
	And so, what did I say?
	I said, I don't think that's right.
	And I don't believe you.
	Because if you wanted an assertive guy, you would have chosen an assertive guy.
	Now, how, and I know you didn't like that, which is fine.
	But what was your experience of me saying, I don't believe you and saying why?
	I mean, but you can also be like this to some topping, to some topic.
	Like, it's not that the whole person is indecisive.
	Like, you can just be indecisive with some issue that okay.
	So, that's hang on.
	That's that's abstract and analytical.
	What did I ask for, though?
	Sorry.
	How did you feel when I corrected you on you wishing Bob was different?
	Yeah, I didn't like that.
	Right, you didn't like it.
	And what, Bob, what did you say?
	Did you say something like, Steph, you went too far?
	Did you say something?
	I couldn't quite catch it.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Because Jane, did you get all kinds of annoyed when I said that?
	Yeah.
	No, no, no.
	You got annoyed, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Okay.
	So, so that's an example of an assertive guy.
	Did you want that?
	Yeah.
	No, you didn't, because you got annoyed, right?
	So that was my test, right?
	So you say, oh, I really wish, I really wish Bob was assertive.
	I'm like, let's find out if Jane likes assertiveness.
	I wasn't mean, was I?
	No.
	I didn't call you a liar.
	I didn't, I just said, I don't believe you, and here's why.
	And I, you know, but and I also said it's unconscious.
	And I also was very clear to say, I'm not saying you like your mom or like Bob's mom or anything.
	So that's an example of an assertiveness which bothers you, right?
	So that's one of the reasons you chose Bob.
	And I'm not saying he never does that, right?
	Obviously, I don't have a monopoly on this stuff.
	But one of the reasons, one of the main reasons you chose Bob is Bob doesn't do that as much, right?
	Yeah.
	Because that's what you're used to.
	That's how you grew up.
	That's what Bob's used to.
	And that's how he grew up, right?
	And that's the natural state.
	There's nothing wrong with any of this.
	We just need to be aware of it.
	It's natural for us to copy our parents because our parents, by definition, are sexually successful, and therefore they're our template for how to reproduce.
	So we copy our parents.
	That's what works.
	And that's how we evolved.
	And that's what was available in the tribe.
	So I'm not criticizing anyone here.
	But I got this wave of chilly female breath coming out of you when I was being sort of more assertive and say what I didn't believe and why.
	And the reason why you chose Bob, and I'm not saying it's the only reason, but one important reason why you chose Bob is he was never going to bother your mother.
	He was never going to say, if your mother said something foolish or wrong, which we all do, right?
	Bob wasn't going to say, nope, sorry, I don't believe you.
	I don't believe you.
	And I also don't like the way you're treating my wife.
	And let me tell you why.
	I mean, what would that do to your parents if Bob did something like that?
	Well, they would just stop with what they were saying and they were respected.
	I massively doubt that.
	Sorry to do this again.
	I really am.
	I massively doubt that.
	If your mother welcomed male assertiveness, she wouldn't have married and dominated your father.
	Yeah, well, I think that they, like, it, I would visit at home.
	They would be like, no, they don't know what they are doing.
	But now, when we are not living at home anymore, they are just like, okay, yeah, whatever you say, let's have a good relationship.
	So I guess it depends.
	No, but part of the people.
	No, but part of assertiveness is not letting go, right?
	So if you say, I wish Bob was more assertive, and I say, I don't believe you, and then you say, oh, forget it, drop the topic, let's just continue the conversation.
	I would say, no.
	You don't get to tell me what I do and don't talk about in a conversation.
	I don't get to tell you either.
	We have a conversation, which means not policing what the other person says.
	So if, So, Bob, give me an example of when you saw Jane's mother treat her in a negative way.
	One time when we were leaving their house, she was very pushy towards Jane to take some food.
	And she wouldn't take no for an answer.
	And that got Jenny very frustrated.
	Okay.
	And what did you have an urge to say to your mother-in-law?
	No, she said no.
	Please respect my wife's wishes.
	She's very clearly said no.
	We don't want the food.
	We appreciate the offer, but it's a no.
	So at the time, I vividly remembered it because I kind of disappointed myself in this, how I reacted.
	Yeah, listen.
	And I'm sorry to interrupt.
	I'm not blaming you.
	I mean, this is how you were raised.
	Your father modeled.
	A million times, your father modeled, okay, honey, okay.
	So I sympathize with that.
	But you didn't stand up for your wife in that context, right?
	Yeah, if I had, I also agree with you that I'm not that decisive because of my parents, but I also want to be more decisive.
	So in that situation, I should have said, like, stop it or drop it.
	No, she doesn't want to focus.
	Except that, I mean, this is the challenge, right?
	except that Jane chose you because you wouldn't.
	No, no, hang on.
	Hang on.
	But Jane chose you.
	Jane chose you because you wouldn't do that.
	So if you were the kind of guy who would do that, Jane wouldn't have chosen you.
	So you wouldn't be in that situation.
	Do you see what I mean?
	Yeah, but that's unconscious, right?
	No, no, no.
	So let me give you the analogy.
	Sorry to interrupt.
	Let me give the analogy back.
	So if I'm, let's pretend we're in the animated cars universe or something.
	So if I'm a sports car and somebody comes in and wants a minivan, do they choose me?
	If they want a sports car, then yeah.
	No, no.
	If they want a minivan and I'm a sports car, do they choose me?
	If they want a minivan, then no.
	Right.
	So if they want a sports car, they will choose me because I'm a sports car, right?
	Hang on, hang on.
	Hang on.
	Let me finish this.
	So if I'm a sports car, somebody comes in to the dealership and they want a sports car.
	If I'm a sports car, they would choose me, right?
	Yeah.
	Now, does it make any sense for me to say, when I get home and I've been driving around for two and a half years, to say, I wish I was a minivan?
	Well, no, because if you were a minivan, you wouldn't have been picked or chosen.
	You wouldn't be there.
	You wouldn't be driven around by that guy because he wants a sports car.
	So there's no point saying, I wish I was a minivan.
	And there's also no point for the guy who chose a sports car to say, I wish this sports car was a minivan.
	And that's why I was pushing back against Jane saying, I wish that Bob was more assertive.
	Because if he had been assertive, you would have found him annoying in the same way that you found me annoying when I was assertive, right?
	I would say I also believe Jane in a way that this 50-50 also negatively influences her.
	And this is one of the reasons why she wants me to decide.
	But no, no, but she's making it impossible to decide.
	And sorry to be, you know, be blunt, but so when you say to someone, I want you to be decisive about a 50-50 decision, you realize that's impossible, right?
	I mean, mathematically, it's impossible.
	You can't be decisive about a 50-50 decision.
	Yeah, but you can still decide.
	But you can't be decisive.
	And you can't decide other than arbitrarily randomly.
	You might as well just flip a coin.
	Now, do you guys want to make a decision about the entire future of your relationship and possibly your life and your lineage based upon a coin flip?
	No.
	So The reason that you're avoiding information is you want to avoid the decision.
	And you're both avoiding the information.
	And Jane, I would put this a little bit more on you because it's your issue and you know the most about this ailment, right?
	So you are avoiding information that would give Bob the chance to make a decision.
	And then you're complaining that he's indecisive.
	And you're saying to Bob, I want you to be decisive about 50-50.
	But he can't.
	Because if it becomes 70-30 having children, then you are obligated to have children, or at least pursue that, right?
	If it is 70-30, I don't want children, then if he wants children, he'll probably date someone else, right?
	So putting it on 50-50 is kind of paralyzing him.
	Now, the only reason you're able to do that is he grew up with a father who was a simp or a cuck or whatever you want to call it.
	Somebody who just like, well, whatever my happy wife, happy life, whatever my wife wants, you know, and so that's, I think that's where the paralysis is, if that makes sense.
	Well, yeah, sure.
	And then you took him to a therapist, and what did the therapist say?
	Bob, you're completely at fault.
	if you loved your partner, you wouldn't ask for children.
	Because if you had gone to someone who might have a more even-handed approach, like, understand, I'm not saying either of you were wrong or bad or anything like that.
	I'm just looking at the machinery or the mechanics of the conflict, if that makes sense.
	So I think that the challenge is not about the kids or not, and it's not fundamentally about whether you get the right numbers from the geneticists or anything like that.
	I think that the fundamental issue is honesty and directness in what you need and what.
	So to be assertive on the part of Bob would be, don't give me 50-50.
	Nothing in life is 50-50.
	That's not possible.
	That's an unconscious manipulation to have Bob not make the decision.
	And so if I were to look at this, and I don't know if this is true, but if I were to look at this at a purely mechanical way, in a purely transactional way, I would say something like this, that, Jane, you want to be with Bob, but you're terrified to have children, which I completely sympathize.
	Hey, Bob seems great.
	And children are scary for this.
	I mean, they're scary sometimes as a whole, but particularly with these genetic issues.
	So you want to be with Bob and you're terrified of having children.
	So what is the best way to get what you want?
	Well, the best way to get what you want is to have Bob not make a decision to because then you avoid either losing Bob or having children.
	And so you chose a guy who wasn't going to be assertive and fight relatively hard for what he wants and needs.
	You chose him for that.
	And then maybe you kind of blame him for it, which is not particularly nice, but I think that just comes from a lack of self-knowledge, which again, I sympathize with and understand.
	This is all, I guess, fairly advanced stuff.
	So I think that you are avoiding either the anxiety of losing Bob, which might be it for you marrying a quality guy, maybe.
	It could be a fear, or deciding to have children, which is also very scary for reasons, again, I completely understand and sympathize with.
	But I think that you are keeping things undecided in the hopes that Bob will continue on with you until he's so pair bonded or you can't have children anymore and then you just stay together.
	And I think that way you avoid the data that would help him make a better decision.
	And I think, Bob, because you're used to deferring to women, you're going along with that rather than saying, no, I need to be responsible to my balls.
	Like, I need to be responsible to my sperm or reproduction.
	I need to get the facts so that I can make an informed decision.
	But instead, she, Jane, is sorry, there aren't any other she's in the conversation.
	But Jane is avoiding this information in the hopes of continuing with the relationship without you making a clear decision.
	And you're following along with that rather than be assertive because that's what you saw your father do with your mother.
	Does that make sense?
	For me or for Jane?
	Well, I mean, there's three of us here.
	So let's say both of you.
	Yeah.
	For me, it makes sense.
	But I always have in my mind that it's not just what your parents did.
	And then you just clone them that you can also make decisions on your own.
	And then says, in this sense, I think I should be better in the sense that ask for these tests or anything.
	Well, listen, and I'm sorry to interrupt, and we'll stop in a second or two here.
	But so I would say, again, it's just my opinion for whatever it's worth.
	It's not about the tests.
	It's about the more fundamental underlying mechanics of it, which is that, Jane, you're used to the women running things.
	So you chose a guy who's compliant.
	And there's nothing wrong with that.
	I mean, but it is what it is, right?
	And you also have to, if you chose a guy who's compliant, then when he starts to become more assertive, you're quite likely to punish him.
	In the same way, in a small way, you got kind of cold towards me when I was assertive, right?
	So you can't say, I want a guy who's assertive and then punish him when he starts to become assertive.
	And I imagine that that's what would happen.
	And again, that's just, I think, something that wasn't a connection for you before.
	So now you're responsible.
	But before it was just.
	And so I don't think fundamentally it's about getting the data about kids.
	I mean, I would certainly do that.
	But I think it's, you know, time to have a good conversation about why are you with each other.
	And look, there's lots of good things about why you're with each other, but the bad things are because you're both used to the woman being in charge.
	And if you're so used to that and you're unconscious of that, then you will punish Bob for being more assertive, or you will withdraw or you'll be cold or you'll give him negative signals for being when he's more assertive.
	And that is going to drive his love away because that's too much like his mom.
	That's too much like his parents.
	And a woman cannot act too much.
	I mean, I don't know, females are females, so it's a spread.
	But a woman can't, I mean, Bob, you were punished for being assertive when you were a kid, largely by your mother.
	And if there's any whiff of that in your current relationship, it will cause great harm and so on.
	And also for Bob, complying with Jane because you want to be nice or not cause trouble or, you know, love her more or whatever, that's not good either because that's being like her father to her, because her father didn't say much to her mother in terms of being assertive.
	And so if you guys, if there are echoes of each other's parents in the relationship, it generally does not go well.
	So I think that's the, I mean, that's the conversation I would have, but that's, of course, just my opinion.
	Yeah, I see your point and I it makes sense.
	Can I, I know you, you have to go, but can I just ask, since I have this knowledge about me and my upbringing, just and I want to be more assertive as a man, what to like, would I just try to be more of that?
	Or it's you have to meet in the middle.
	So you have to be more assertive.
	And Jane, you have to not get all kinds of cold and distant when he's assertive, like the way you did with me, right?
	So you have to work to welcome his assertiveness and he has to work to be more assertive.
	And you have to talk about all the stuff that is in the way of that that comes from your childhood, if that makes sense.
	So to talk about it and explore the right.
	And so, and you relationships are all about agreements, right?
	So if the agreement is, Bob, you're going to be more assertive, right?
	Okay.
	So that's the agreement, right?
	So then you say, okay, so if you chose me for being not assertive and now I'm going to be more assertive, it's going to bother you.
	So what do we do, Jane, when it bothers you?
	Well, you can say, well, I know we wanted you to be more assertive, but this is really bothering me.
	And then you have a conversation about that.
	But you don't just act it out and punish him or withdraw or get cold or something like that.
	But you have an agreement, right?
	So knowing that Bob, if you try to be more assertive or when you are more assertive, it's going to bother Jane at times, not always, but it's going to bother Jane at times.
	And she's going to want to punish you because that's what she saw her mother doing.
	And that's what you, Bob, saw your mother doing when the males were more assertive.
	And so you just have to have an agreement and say, okay, well, so knowing that when I'm more assertive, you're going to try to punish me unconsciously or whatever, then don't do that.
	Or if I catch you on it, say, well, I was more assertive and now you're kind of cold to me.
	That's kind of punishing me, which we were going to try and avoid.
	And just have, so you just have to have agreements, knowing that it's going to cause problems when you become more assertive.
	How are you going to deal with those problems?
	Well, you're not going to deal with them by being cold or storming out or slamming cupboard doors.
	I'm not saying you do any of that, but whatever might be the sort of punishment or the negative.
	And just say, well, I'm not, if you're going to be more assertive, Bob, I'm not going to punish you for it.
	Or if I am punishing you for it automatically, you're going to call me out on it and I'm going to try and work on that.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah, it's my thanks.
	Thanks.
	Good, good.
	All right.
	All right.
	Well, listen, guys.
	I hope it was a useful chat.
	I really appreciate your time and your openness.
	This is not a small issue.
	Neither is it an issue that you guys alone are dealing with.
	A lot of people are dealing with these kinds of issues.
	So I really do appreciate your honesty and directness.
	And I really thank you for your time.
	And I really thank you for your time.
	And one hour 15 that we went over your time.
	No sweat.
	Listen.
	And just keep me posted.
	Even if we never talk again, just drop me a line or something.
	Let me know how things are going.
	All right.
	Okay.
	Thank you.
	Thanks, guys.
	Thank you very much.
	All the best.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	All the best.
	Bye-bye.

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