Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux - HELP STEF I HAVE NO FRIENDS! FREEDOMAIN CALL IN SHOW

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Sept. 4, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:37:37

HELP STEF I HAVE NO FRIENDS! FREEDOMAIN CALL IN SHOW

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	Hi, I've been listening to your show for a couple of years now.
	My husband introduced it to me shortly after we got married.
	I've really enjoyed learning about philosophy and self-knowledge, and I've been applying it to my marriage and other relationship queries.
	I'm hoping to talk to you about some struggles I've had, maintaining relationships, friendships throughout my life.
	I've never had a local friendship last more than a few years.
	I'm about to continue my self-knowledge by going to a group therapy in the fall and And I was told I would need a sponsor, a friend or a relation to closely connect with for the group sessions.
	And no one I could ask besides my husband.
	So to me, that is alarming.
	I feel as though I should have at least one long-term close friendship.
	My husband and I talk about this often, how I often have difficulties maintaining friendships.
	I've been burned by people many times throughout my life, and I now tend to put up barriers when meeting new people until I've observed them long enough to deem them as safe people.
	Even when I do form friendships, they seem to die out in a sense within a few years.
	I'm wondering if there's a pattern that needs to be addressed or something I'm not seeing.
	I'm an emotionally intelligent, kind, gentle, and thoughtful person.
	Um I'm often the listener or counselor in friendships and relationships.
	I've often had to be the pursuer of connection with um other people.
	And it can be very exhausting, especially when there's no reciprocation.
	At times I feel I have this in my familial relationships as well.
	I come from a family of married parents with six kids, including myself.
	And um, I often felt that I was thirsty for affection and attention as a child and still feel that way to this day.
	Um I'm not sure if that has anything to do with it.
	Thankfully, my husband and I have a very good relationship.
	I feel he is my only truest friend who knows every intimate detail of my life.
	He knows my innermost being, and I love that about our relationship.
	My hope is that I could have um that with a friend as well one day.
	I hope that it would work to speak to you as I respect your insight.
	And that is my message to you, Steph.
	I appreciate that.
	Very, very honest and open.
	And are you what decade of life are you in?
	Um I am 30.
	Okay.
	And uh sorry, do you have kids?
	I have one child.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Uh how old's your child?
	Uh he's almost nine months.
	Okay.
	Congratulations, you're in the exciting phase.
	All right.
	Yes.
	Well, um I'm I'm resisting my urge for gossip, which is a weakness I have.
	So um let's let's pretend that this is this is scholarly philosophical uh examination and questions.
	But do give me the dish the durist.
	I mean, sorry, give me the facts about how you've been burned.
	What's what's happened with your friendships?
	Give me a couple of examples.
	I'm just trying to sort of figure out what patterns they are, and again, satisfy my demonic, salacious need for gossip.
	But uh yeah, what's what's happened with friendships?
	Um, well, it's actually something that I've struggled with, like the earliest I can remember is being six years old and the girls in my class were not kind at all.
	And girls can be like I finally get kind of mean around that age or at least like six to nine years old.
	And uh I just vividly remember telling my mother that like the girls at school, like I would tell them something or be excited about something or want to play with them or do something, and then they're like, so and they have this really kind of mean, like I don't care, like so.
	And that was the thing to say during my six-year-old time.
	Um, like I'm reading this really great book.
	So Right to diminish you.
	Right.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	And that was really hard for me.
	I was I've always been a very soft-hearted person.
	And so like hang on, hang on.
	I'm gonna be that way.
	Your your first definition.
	Soft hearted.
	Tell me what you mean by that.
	Um, I feel like um I'm a deep feeler.
	So like if someone says something to me or I notice something like happening to someone else, like I feel it very deeply.
	Like I empathize with other people, or um, if someone's like unkind, like that really hurts me.
	Like some people can kind of brush it off easily, whereas like I feel it deeply and almost immediately.
	Does that kind of help?
	Yeah, I just I mean, soft-hearted sounds almost like a weakness.
	You could say open hearted, passionate, uh emotional, empathetic, or but yeah, soft-hearted, uh, it sounds almost like uh like a soft touch, like someone who's who's easy to manipulate.
	And maybe that is somewhat the case that happens with empathy, you've got to be really careful who you spend time with because with empathy comes the capacity to be pushed around and manipulated.
	So if you're around cold-hearted people, you don't even own yourself after a while.
	So six, six to nine, the girls girls get all kind of flowers of the golden afternoon kind of mean.
	And then what I would say it kind of continued through my school years.
	Um particularly I remember in middle school, I had a decent group of friends, I thought, and then one girl told me one day, like, I don't want to be your friend anymore.
	You're kind of a loser kind of thing.
	And I thought she was like I've been friends with her for a while, and that really hurt.
	And I think it was because I wasn't like one of like the popular cool kids, and she was trying to get in with that group, and for her to do that, she had to kind of get rid of me kind of in a way, and that's something I vividly remember.
	Um, do you think she was seeing in you that was lower status in her mind I've always had um high moral standards, even as like a child, and I think that kind of rubs some kids the wrong way.
	Like if something in my mind was wrong, I wouldn't be afraid to say, hey, we probably shouldn't do that.
	That's wrong.
	Right?
	And some kids, especially as you get older, they tend to like to push those boundaries and have risks um that are not necessarily moral or it depends on like your belief.
	They're little girls.
	We're not talking about like a chile and gang.
	Uh what sort of boundaries were they trying to push there?
	Um, getting into things they shouldn't be getting into, like um like drugs or um smoking or sorry, I guess we flipped ages here a little.
	Sorry.
	I just um last I heard we were six to nine, so what age are we talking about here?
	Sorry, I jumped to the city.
	No, that's fine.
	That's fine.
	I just want to make sure I'm keeping track.
	Yeah.
	So this is in middle school, like 13, 14 years old.
	So it's not the little girls anymore.
	Okay, so go ahead.
	But yeah, they're just kind of getting into like inappropriate things.
	I went to a Christian school growing up.
	So to me, um, seeing those kind of behaviors like, oh, you shouldn't be doing that.
	And maybe that rubs some kids the wrong way, I'm not sure.
	Well, I mean, it's not a huge secret that you shouldn't be doing drugs at the age of 14.
	That's not controversial.
	Um I think like if you're a kid who just wants to do what they want to do and someone's kind of like, No, no, is it controversial than Christians?
	I don't mean for the kids themselves.
	Is it is it controversial?
	Like, were people like, no, no, it's good for us to do this or it's fine, or like was it controversial that you said it's it's not controversial within the Christian circle, no?
	Okay, but what about for the kids?
	Were the kids frowned upon who did that, or were they considered cool, or what was the story there?
	I think I think they were considered cool among peers.
	Obviously, parents would not be okay with what was happening.
	I get that.
	And was it generally the cooler kids who were the rule breakers?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	And what proportion of the kids, uh the girls, I guess we were talking about the girls.
	What proportion of the girls were doing bad or wrong things in that way?
	Um I'd say like probably 70%.
	Oh gosh.
	Oh, so yeah, you you're kind of outnumbered as a good girl, right?
	Yeah.
	As we often are.
	That's good people, yeah, yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So, you know, three out of the four girls were doing some pretty terrible stuff.
	Yeah.
	And the one quarter.
	Why do you think they weren't?
	I mean, there's some moral stuff, but it also could be other stuff.
	Um, I think some of them just weren't like risk takers like that.
	They were more rule followers, or they didn't really they weren't really interested in that kind of thing.
	That's before they were interested in other things.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	But yeah.
	So there was kind of a break in friendships there.
	And it's yeah, it hasn't been amazing since then, like even in my young adult life.
	Um after high school, I had a friend that I kind of connected with still from high school that we we did like art projects together.
	We did all sorts of things together, and then kind of the same thing.
	Like she had some friends from work that would like to go to bars and play pool, and that's fine.
	That's not something I'm particularly interested in, but she preferred friends who did that kind of thing.
	And so she just kind of stopped hanging out with me and just ended up kind of sleeping over.
	Going to parents and playing pool, is that sort of code for sleeping around or was it more innocent than that?
	Well, I don't she may have not told me what she was actually doing, but that's what she was telling me that she enjoyed doing.
	And she never invited me, but she just knew that I wasn't that kind of woman that I would hang out in bars or go play pool or whatever they did on like weekends.
	So activities at that time.
	What age we should enter high school?
	Um this would be like early 20s.
	Early 20s.
	And what were your uh hobbies or activities at that point?
	Um I really enjoyed um doing art and listening to music and reading books, um reading um comic books too.
	Um I really enjoyed going outside for walks and stuff like that.
	Like I just wasn't really into like the party scene, which a lot of young adults can be into.
	So but yeah, I that's kind of like the artsy um reading, like that's kind of the things I'm interested in.
	Okay, got it, got it.
	Okay, so of the 30% of girls who weren't doing the quote bad stuff, or not even quote the bad stuff, of the 30% of the girls, how many of them would you have considered or did you consider as friends or potential friends?
	Um I would say like it's usually like one or two girls um that I would consider my friends, and um we would probably spend time um going for like coffee or reading books or exchanging ideas or um doing art projects together, like the that's how I spend my time with them usually, or like if we're going back to high school, we would hang out in the art room and we'd eat our lunch there.
	Um and yeah, we would some of us went to like to prom together.
	So yeah, it was just like very low-key kind of um hanging out, like really relaxed, I would say.
	Okay, and what happened to those friendships over time well um one of those friends got married and I couldn't attend her wedding because I was doing um a missions trip, and I didn't I honestly haven't heard from her since um, even despite reaching out and then the other friend decided.
	Sorry, sorry, what age I'm doing the time.
	So early time frame.
	I'm early 20s here.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so it's been almost a almost a decade since you were in touch with her.
	And it's because you couldn't make her wedding, you were on a mission.
	I was on a mission trip, yeah.
	I couldn't attend your wedding.
	Yeah.
	Um, so I'm not really sure if she's like upset that I couldn't come or if she just didn't care for our friendship anymore.
	Like I'm not really sure why, but I did try and reach out and connect with her after I got back from my trip.
	Um, and then the other friend was the same friend who switched over here.
	Let's just do one at a time.
	So uh how how long was your your friend come the first friend here that you couldn't get?
	Can we give her a name that's not her name?
	Um Sadie.
	Sadie.
	Sadism.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	Um so uh did you did you spend much time with Sadie's boyfriend or fiancee?
	What did you think of him?
	Um he was a year ahead of us in high school, and we didn't spend too much time with him other than like if we were at school.
	So she knew him in high school and got married a few years after high school to him.
	Um we did we would spend lunches together, but we were never in the same classes really.
	Okay.
	What did you think of him?
	Um well he did lie to our group of friends, or maybe like it's because I am gullible.
	Like he told us this big story about how he was involved with like a gang or something, and we totally believed him.
	And then after like months and months, he was like, I'm I was totally kidding.
	And we were like, what?
	You were?
	And so it kind of made me not trust him very much after that.
	And so it just kind of broke like my friendship with her future husband.
	This is not your fault at all.
	You're doing fine.
	I'm just um I'm just trying to catch up here.
	So that's on me, not you.
	So your friend Sadie had a boyfriend who claimed to be a career criminal.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Or at least.
	What the ever living heck?
	I don't know.
	Is that psycho?
	It is, now that you think about it.
	No, seriously.
	I mean, it's one thing to claim to be a neurosurgeon.
	It's another thing to claim to be in a in a criminal gang.
	Yeah.
	I mean, did he say did he ever say what he what what did he claim to do in this gang?
	I'm trying to remember.
	It was a long time ago.
	We were in high school when he told this tale.
	Listen, young lady, you're 30 years old.
	You don't have a long time ago.
	I'm in my late 50s.
	I can claim a long time ago.
	I can't give you that.
	I mean, this is like less than 10 years ago.
	So just roughly, what did he say?
	Like he was a um was he a hitman?
	Was he like a thief?
	Like what did he do?
	I think he had like a scar on his like leg from something, and then he told us, like, yeah, like I got in trouble with like this gang and they like tried to kill me kind of thing.
	And I'm just we're just like, whoa, that's crazy.
	Was he in the gang or in trouble with the gang?
	Um I think like he, if I can remember correctly, he said he was like a part of a different gang and got in trouble with like a rival gang or something like that.
	Okay.
	So it was pretty wild, but like I at the time.
	I mean, you were close to the Sadie, right?
	Yeah.
	So did you ever ask Sadie why on earth she'd be dating someone who was a criminal?
	And like an endangered criminal and a dangerous criminal.
	Well, I should say like they weren't dating at the time.
	They were um they dated like towards the end of the day.
	Please don't nitpick me too much.
	I mean So at some point she started dating him.
	And did you ever say, no, this guy's like a dangerous criminal?
	You can't date him.
	That's like this terrible.
	Yeah.
	Um I don't recall telling her that she shouldn't.
	I was a little surprised uh that she started dating him, but I don't think I said anything.
	Okay, and why not?
	And I'm not I'm not sure if I didn't say anything because I was concerned about losing a friend over it.
	But yeah.
	I don't think it was the right decision for sure.
	Um how long did they date and get engaged or were engaged before the other?
	Maybe they dated for two or three years and then they got married a year after that.
	And the whole time you genuinely believe that he's a dangerous criminal, like a violent criminal.
	Well, no, he told us within like a couple months of his telling the story that he was not, but just the fact that he would make that up.
	Oh, so sorry.
	Did he did he come clean about not being a criminal?
	Within with within a few months, yeah.
	Within a few months of what?
	Of telling the story.
	Were they dating at that point or no?
	No.
	Okay, so he tells the story about being in the gang.
	He then says, ha ha, just kidding, and she's like, let's date.
	Or they date after that.
	They date after that.
	Okay.
	And did you ever say like this is a weirdo who tells bizarre stories?
	Uh and lies pathologically.
	I mean, did you No, like looking on it as an adult now?
	Yeah, like I would probably say something, but at the time.
	Sorry, but you're not an adult when they were dating?
	Uh well, yeah.
	Um I was in my early 20s.
	Okay, so you're an adult, right?
	You're an adult.
	So when you say as an adult now, like you were an adult then, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So um it's not a criticism.
	I'm just genuinely curious, like, why wouldn't you say this guy's bad news?
	Um, I think I think I was concerned about losing a friend, probably.
	Um But yeah, I don't think that behavior.
	No, no, like of course you were concerned about losing a friend.
	Yeah.
	That doesn't answer the question, right?
	I mean, first of all, I mean, there's obviously a couple of ways to look at it from my pew uh point of view.
	First of all, if she's gonna marry a pathological liar or a weirdo who makes up stories about being criminal and then has people believe it for months, then the friendship's not gonna last anyway.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Because she's got terrible judgment.
	That's true.
	So as far as losing friends go.
	Um It would probably be one to lose.
	Well, you know, and if if you're a Christian and someone is sinning and you say, Well, I didn't want to lose the friendship, well, that's the point of Christianity is if the person sins, you're gonna lose the friendship anyway, so you might as well try and save them from sinning because it's the only chance to save the friendship, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, that makes sense.
	So that's straight up Christianity 101, so it escaped you at the time, and I'm trying to figure out why.
	I mean, you're committed enough to go on a mission for I assume quite some time.
	But thou shall not bear false witness, where where was that with your friend?
	Um I didn't honestly it didn't come to my mind, I have to be honest, it didn't.
	Um do I regret that?
	Absolutely.
	Hang on, hang on.
	No, hang on, hang on.
	So it didn't come to my mind.
	Did you not remember that he was a liar in this way?
	Had you forgotten that?
	Um honestly at the time I don't think I thought about it in that way.
	I just is all too confusing to me.
	I don't know what thinking about things in a certain way me either thinking about things or not.
	I don't know what in a certain way means.
	I've never thought of him as it like, oh, you're a liar now.
	No, he did lie to you.
	Yes, that's true, he did, but I didn't think about what he did as lying.
	I don't know why I didn't think about it that way.
	Okay.
	Um I mean, you're very devoted to your faith, right?
	Uh yeah.
	So And you said that you were able to avoid the temptations that 70% of the girls went down the road of like drinking in drugs, right?
	Very obvious things, yes.
	Okay.
	Well, no, this is obvious.
	This is blindingly obvious.
	That this guy's like a weirdo liar, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	So when you say you didn't think of it in that way, you knew that he lied, right?
	Because he confessed.
	That's right.
	Okay, so you knew that he was like a weirdo liar.
	Now, did he conf did he confess?
	Like, there's two ways to confess.
	One is to say, you know, I have a problem telling the truth, I'm really working on it, and this is a bad habit, and I'm so sorry for misleading you, especially with such a scary and weird story.
	Or there's saying, um, haha, I was only joking, I can't believe you fell for it, you're so gullible.
	It was the second one.
	Okay, so he's not he so he's not a reformed liar, he's a committed liar.
	Yeah.
	I mean, in fact, he blames people who believe him because they believed him.
	That's right.
	Okay, so he blames the victim of his lying.
	So this is an unreformed sinner, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	So that means that he's not fixed, and he doesn't even admit that there's a problem and has no chance or goal or process to fix it, right?
	Right.
	Okay, so you knew that he was a liar, and you knew that he was a liar who took pride in his lies and blamed those who believed him.
	Mm-hmm.
	Insulted those who believed him.
	That's right.
	So how is that not obvious?
	Yeah, you're right.
	It is obvious.
	Okay, so but how was it not obvious at the time?
	How is it not obvious to me?
	Um The only thing I can um think about is that he kind of came off as like as it's like I've had this before with people that they make serious things come off as a joke, and if you're serious about the joke, then they get upset with you and they're like, Yes, but that's that's oh, I mean you're you're like an oncologist who says, well, you know, cancer sometimes presents as a lump.
	It's like, well, yeah.
	Yeah, yes, it does, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, so so the fact that that people who were sinners will try and joke and laugh off their sin is not important, isn't that Christianity 101?
	That they they minimize their own sin and that's how they lure you in.
	Christianity is is is training you to identify sinners.
	And and the reason you need to be trained to identify sinners is sometimes they're charismatic, right?
	Right.
	I mean the demon doesn't the devil doesn't appear as like a horned guy with with like you know, blood dripping from his fingernails and and goat legs and all that.
	Right.
	That's right.
	So you've spent at this point, you know twenty years of your life or fifteen years of your life being trained on how to spot sin and sinners, right?
	And that this guy's blindingly obvious.
	I'm trying to figure out because I think this is important.
	Why this pretty obvious thing that you've been trained to identify for years and years and years, why it misses you completely or why you miss it completely.
	Help me understand that.
	Um the only thing I can that comes to mind is that um it's not something that being a Christian, being able to spot sin, being able to speak up about it is something that I've worked on for a long time,
	as you said, but I think it's something where you do have weaknesses, you're not perfect, and I think that I wasn't I didn't I don't know if I had the wherewithal or the bravery to hang on, hang on.
	No, no, the the the speaking out is one thing, the identification is the other.
	And you're saying you didn't even identify this guy as uh a dangerous or problematic or sinful.
	So so forget about the speaking out part.
	I'm looking at the identification part.
	Okay.
	Um, saying we all make mistakes and we all fall short of perfection, I I get all of that for sure.
	Yeah.
	You had years around this guy, and you knew that he was a terrible liar and an unreformed liar and an unapologetic liar.
	So that's not I miss something small that that was subtle.
	I mean, you're around this guy, he told you a terrible lie, and you were around him for years.
	So if you said, Well, I knew that he was a bad guy, but I was too nervous to tell my friend, that's one thing.
	But as far as I understood it, you said I didn't even notice he was a bad guy.
	Yeah.
	That's I think that might be my problem is not recognizing someone who is not safe or good.
	Well, you're complaining about Sadie, but you were the bad friend.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Because, oh, my friends, they they they don't treat me right and they don't do good by me, and they betray me, and someone's like, but Sadie's marrying a psycho.
	Yeah.
	And you say nothing, and you're complaining about Sadie being a bad friend.
	So I was also a bad friend for not.
	Well, I can't speak to Sadie, because I don't know, or obviously I'm only talking to you.
	But is it being a good friend to say nothing when your friend is walking into a marriage with a terrible guy?
	Yeah, that is a bad friend a thing to do.
	Because that's why you haven't heard from her.
	So I can tell you why you haven't heard from her if you want.
	Yeah, sure.
	So the reason you haven't heard from her is because of her husband.
	So her husband recognizes you as someone who might be able to identify him as a bad guy.
	And so he is encouraging Sadie to not have any contact with you.
	Yeah.
	Because so we say, well, I don't want to tell my friend she's gonna marry a bad guy because I'm a I'm afraid I'm gonna lose the friendship.
	It's like, well, sorry, my friend, you lose the friendship.
	Because if you've even had those thoughts cross your mind, or you've you know, you're a good girl, right, a good woman, then the bad husband is gonna keep his wife away from you.
	Because you could blow the whole exploitation.
	You could blow the whole scheme, right?
	That's true.
	So you lose you so this is like you lose her anyway.
	Except you lose her this way with dishonor.
	You could have lost her with honor, but you lose lose her with dishonor.
	Like you could have said, listen, let me lay out the case.
	I know this is difficult.
	This guy is a real pathological liar.
	He lied about this, he lied about that, he's never apologized.
	In fact, he blamed us for believing his lies.
	There's something really wrong with this guy, and this is not a good uh it's is Sadie Christian as well.
	Um I don't think so.
	Okay.
	Right.
	Um Even so you could do it from a moral in that sense, or you just do it from a practical standpoint, where you say, like there's something really wrong with this guy, and maybe you could find out a little bit about his family or his childhood or something like that, right?
	Figure out why he's doing this kind of stuff, right?
	And then you say, Oh, she's gonna get so mad, she's gonna get up, she's gonna storm out, she's never gonna talk to me again.
	It's like, yes, that that that can happen.
	So let's say that that's got a uh a 75% chance of happening.
	Okay, you have a 25% chance of saving the friendship.
	But this way, you have no chance.
	Because you let her get married to this guy, this guy's now dominant in her life, and he's gonna keep you away from her no matter what.
	Right.
	But this way you get to blame her.
	This way you get to blame her.
	Otherwise, you might have some recrimination against yourself, and you might say, Oh, I brought it up at the wrong time or in the wrong way, or I shouldn't have brought it up.
	And then you get mad at yourself, right?
	Right.
	But this way you get to say, well, Sadie treated me badly, and she never got in touch with me, and she should have known I was on a mission, I couldn't come to her wedding, right?
	So this way you feel like a victim, you get to blame uh Sadie, but Sadie was obviously head over heels in lust or love or whatever the hell, well, not not love.
	She was head over heels for this guy for whatever reason.
	And she couldn't think straight, she couldn't reason.
	You knew he was a bad guy.
	Except now you tell me, well, in in this story, and I'm not disbelieving you, but you say, I didn't I didn't I didn't know he was a liar.
	Yeah.
	Which is strange.
	Because this this subtle stuff in life when it comes to morality, claiming for months to be a violent, dangerous criminal in a violent, dangerous gang, and then ha ha, just kidding, can't believe you fell for it, you idiots.
	That's not subtle.
	Yeah.
	So what is the blind spot here?
	That's a really good question.
	I'm trying to think.
	why I couldn't recognize that.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	But I think like that's a pattern that I've had in my life.
	It's just I don't know, not identifying the problems with not just identifying problems for my friends to advocate for friends, but even for myself.
	So maybe that's my blind spot is just not advocating for myself or doing what's right.
	I'm not sure.
	Okay, and so let's talk a little bit about your childhood.
	Because, you know, one of the main things that parents have to do is to train their children in the identification of corruption or evil.
	Right.
	Because corruption and evil will do far more harm to your children than you know, riding a motorcycle in the rain or something, right?
	So help me understand when you were a kid.
	How did your parents or your church or your priests, how did they teach you how to identify and resist evil.
	Um, I would say they would teach us um principles from the Bible, like the Ten Commandments.
	Um I remember going over those as a child.
	Um I remember them trying to convey to us um manners and um looking at well looking out for something that doesn't look right.
	I think we talked about this earlier.
	Things that look good were actually bad.
	Like that's not something that I don't remember addressing uh in my childhood but the obvious things the things that do look bad or wrong then to stay away from those or to resist those things so that's what I can recall about their teaching us growing up.
	Okay but what about I mean Satan's called the father of lies, right?
	So what about lies?
	Liars Um that lying is wrong.
	Um I remember if we lied as kids then we would have a consequence.
	I remember when I was really little they would do like the like a little bit of soap in your mouth kind of thing if you lied.
	Um I was I feel like I was pretty sensitive to like rules and so if I got into trouble like having a consequence for one of my actions then very unlikely that I'd do it again or at least very often.
	Okay so liars should be punished.
	That's right.
	Okay and you accepted that as a just moral rule right li liars should be punished.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so what was your punishment to this guy for lying?
	This this Sadie's future boyfriend.
	Well there was none but I should have um yeah definitely called him out on that and maybe stayed away from him you accept it based upon your your childhood your parents the priests you accepted that liars should face negative consequences.
	And you viewed that as a good moral rule and I'm not trying to nag here.
	I'm not trying to put you in a spot or cross examine you.
	I'm just genuinely trying to understand the thinking.
	Yeah.
	You were punished consistently for lying.
	This guy tells a much worse lie than anything I bet you ever said as a kid, right?
	And so should he not be punished?
	Or or do we not punish liars?
	In which case your parents and your priests and your congregation were all horribly unjust.
	Right?
	So should liars be punished?
	If yes, then this guy should suffer some negative consequences for lying.
	If no liars shouldn't be punished then everybody who punished you for lying was just being abusive and it's not a good rule at all Yeah.
	Um yes there should be consequences for lies um another thought that comes to mind is that we should also be able to extend forgiveness to other people no no no you don't extend forgiveness forgiveness is earned that's true too you have to have contrition you have to apologize.
	You have to admit fault.
	This guy laughed about it and blamed his victims.
	You're right.
	So that's that's not a forgiveness scenario.
	So if so punishing liars is good, right?
	That's your moral rule um yes.
	Okay.
	But then this guy lies and you don't even recognize it as a lie, let alone punish him.
	And the punishment would be what are you laughing about this for?
	This was a terrible lie.
	At least call them out or or uh talk about it with Sadie or something, right?
	Yeah.
	I'm not saying you'd confront them because liars can be dangerous.
	Liars lies usually mask violence.
	So but but sort of help me understand like you had by the time you met this guy you had, you know, I don't know, let's say you started getting punished for lies at 15.
	At five, right?
	So you had like 15 years of being well if lying is really bad and it's so bad you have to be punished.
	And then this guy lies like psycho ways and you don't even notice it.
	That's the disconnect.
	And again it's not a criticism I'm trying to understand this disconnect.
	It's like you spend 15 years riding horses and learning how to be an expert horse rider and then some animal comes along that's a horse and you don't even know what it is that would be confusing, right?
	Yeah I'm not really sure where the disconnect is um not really sure how to um articulate that what would be an example of um what like what a gap like that would look like or that you've encountered well exactly what we're talking about here.
	Which is you've been trained from God Almighty that lying is wrong and liars should suffer negative consequences and you've been punished I mean how were you punished as a kid um it would depend um there I feel like my parents would do certain consequences for certain ages.
	So when we were like quite little, um, we'd get a little spank on the bun if we were very defiant and kind of looked at them and did what they told us not to do.
	Like um, but that died out by the time I was like five or six.
	Um and then it was like, K, you lose privileges, um you're not allowed to do this and this, or you're not allowed to have this thing that we told you you could have.
	Um and that's kind of or like you would be grounded, you couldn't go out with friends or something like that.
	So those were the kind of um consequences as I was older.
	And uh how how often would these punishments occur?
	Uh I recall as a child being afraid of getting into trouble.
	Like I never really wanted to disappoint my parents or make them upset or face the consequence.
	Um so I would say maybe like once every couple months or so.
	Okay.
	And did your parents keep with you?
	Um open communication about moral issues, challenges and choices you had to make in life.
	I don't recall having that open communication.
	Okay, so who taught you how to implement morality?
	Or is that why you're into my show?
	Maybe.
	But no, who taught you how, you know, we've got all these moral theories, blah, blah, blah, which it's great, good moral theories are good, but you have to implement them somehow in life in the real world, right?
	So who helped you with that?
	Um I would say, well, my parents are supposed to, I I don't recall like how involved they were or like how um direct they were about teaching that um I'm sure like it would come up in correctly.
	I kind of interrupt the fog language is driving me a little baddy.
	Sorry.
	I can't recall how involved they're both okay.
	Did they did they teach you, did you say, did you go to them with a moral dilemma and say, I'm not sure what to do, or did they teach you in practical terms how to deal with like peer pressure and how to deal with um you know, corruption and how to deal with liars and uh and and like in practical terms in your day-to-day life.
	Um I'd say like if I had a problem, I could come to them and be like, I have this problem, what should I do?
	Or and then they would kind of talk about our Christian values then and you know, like try to do the right thing.
	And so um I I feel like I have a strong moral compass, so I would do the right thing or do what was correct or what I was taught generally, which also probably feeds into the how did I miss how did I miss it?
	Okay, so you would go to parents and you'd say, uh a friend just told me that she didn't want to be my friend and she called me a loser and I'm sad about that, and and what would they say when you brought problems with friendship say to your parents?
	They'd probably say like, I'm sorry to hear about that.
	No, no, not not probably.
	No, not probably.
	Oh they would say too foggy, what what would happen?
	They would say, I'm sorry to hear about that.
	Um girls or kids, they can be mean.
	Maybe it's something that's like a phase, maybe they just kind of want to be with the cool kids.
	Like they didn't say like I did something to ruin the friendship.
	Um which could also be an issue, but um if you just try to be kind.
	So somebody who's mean to you who who's who was your friend and then is just mean to you because for whatever reason, isn't that a sin?
	Isn't meanness.
	I mean not saying it's a mortal sin, but isn't being cruel to people kind of sinful?
	I I would say, yeah.
	Like Okay, so did they refer to the people who did you wrong as having sinned?
	No, they didn't.
	But you lie as a child, which is natural.
	All children experiment with lying, right?
	Yeah.
	So you were such a sinner as a child that you had to be hit, I know you said sort of smacked lightly, but it's still hitting and and punished a couple of times a year at least.
	And and it was a sin, right?
	So when you tell a lie as a child, which all children do, and I'm not saying we don't oppose that, of course we do, but you I'm not a big fan of the hitting and punishment stuff, right?
	But so your parents were so concerned with you telling lies at the age of five that they would hit you in response.
	Yeah.
	But they I mean who did they refer to in your social circle as someone who sinned because you sinned when you told a lie?
	And that's not a mean thing.
	Children sometimes lie quite innocently.
	So how did they take this strictness about sinning and punishment?
	How did they take that and help you apply that to the world?
	I feel like they didn't.
	Um well now that we're talking it out.
	I don't think they taught me how to apply it to the world, but they taught me to apply it within myself.
	But that doesn't make any sense.
	I mean does it?
	I mean you can't be the only sinner in the world.
	That's true.
	So what does it mean?
	Did they did they say, look, you you're you sin, we sin, we're surrounded by sinners, this person sinned against you, and you know, here's how we would do it.
	But if it's if they just say, well, sometimes people make mistakes or they like that's not what they said about you.
	That's true.
	So I'm trying to understand this difference between internal punishment and outward explanations.
	There's sin in the house, in the children, but not in those around or in the adults.
	Um I think the thought that comes to mind is that like calling other people out on their sin is not something that I was taught about.
	No, but you were taught about that.
	They called you out on your sin at the age of five.
	Yeah.
	Um they called me out, yes, and within our family, but like people on the outside, I feel like they didn't teach me to, or maybe even not necessarily teach me to call it out, or m maybe they should have teached taught me how to call it out.
	I'm not sure.
	But but what's the theological basis for punishing children for sin, but not teaching them that there's sin in the world?
	Yeah.
	Um I feel like I remember being taught, like, yeah, it's out in the world, um, but I don't recall them teaching me like how do I engage with others when they're in sin.
	Okay.
	When you did you told your parents, I assume, that the majority of the girls were going down the drugs and alcohol route, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So what did they say about that?
	Um that I sh well that I should stay away from them, that they wouldn't be good friends for me.
	or they wouldn't be a good friend material.
	Thank you.
	Okay, but if you had gone down, let's say your parents found you smoking marijuana or something, right?
	Yeah.
	Would they punish you?
	Would they call you a s uh would they say that's a sin?
	Um, they would say that um well as discussed in our family, like we don't do those things.
	Uh it's harmful to your body.
	This is a consequence.
	So yeah, I would have a consequence for that.
	Okay, but sorry, they wouldn't refer to it as a sin.
	Um I don't think they would have refer it explicitly as a sin.
	No, they would say it's wrong, it's not good for you.
	Okay, it's wrong.
	Wrong meaning what?
	Wrong as in it's not good for you, it's going to harm you.
	So it's like eating too much.
	Um not exercising.
	To me, it's like No, no, to them.
	To them, to them.
	Sorry.
	To them, marijuana might be.
	What's wrong with drugs?
	Drugs are poison to your body.
	So they can hurt you long term.
	You can get addicted, um, etc.
	Okay.
	So it'd be like it's like an extreme case of like they're being addicted to sugar or something.
	It's bad for you and right, harmful to your body just like that.
	Yeah, I would say that.
	Okay, so it's a sin in that it's impractical and harms your body.
	Sorry, it's not a sin.
	It's not a sin, it's just impractical and it harms your body.
	So what would they consider?
	Um if you what would you have done as a teenager that your parents would call a sin?
	If it's not drinking in drugs, what is it?
	Oh, if it's not drinking in drugs.
	Um would be one.
	Oh my gosh.
	It can't be.
	It can't be.
	I know.
	It can't be that drugs is just impractical, but lying is a sin.
	Yeah.
	Um well I'm just trying to think of something like I might have done as a teenager and I might have lied to them or not told them the truth about something or hid something from them.
	Um arguing with siblings, maybe they they would get upset about that.
	And if it was bad enough to be able to do that, there would be consequences.
	Um I wouldn't say it's a sin, but it's something that they didn't want to happen in the house, especially if it kind of blew up to a bigger argument.
	Okay, but why what what could you have done as a teenager that your parents would have labeled a sin other than lying?
	Um, let me let me ask it a different way, because I I get this is tough.
	Yeah.
	Let me ask it the different way.
	So let's say you came home.
	How old were you when your friend said you're a loser and I don't want to hang out with you anymore?
	Fourteen.
	Fourteen, okay.
	So you're 14, you come home from school.
	And your parents say, Hey, name.
	How was how was your day at school?
	And you said, I was good.
	Yeah, I was good.
	You know, you remember that friend Emily, that that girl I was friends with.
	You know, I kind of realize she's kind of a loser.
	Like she just doesn't do anything cool.
	So I won't I walked up to her and I said, Emily, I'm not hanging out with you anymore.
	You're a total loser.
	Uh you're going nowhere.
	I'm gonna find some cooler friends.
	And I just uh I just laughed in her face and I walked away.
	Okay, what would your parents say Um Like if I was um that friend who No, no no this is you This is me.
	You you you come home and you say Yeah, okay.
	This is what I I I called I called my friend Emily a loser, a total loser.
	I said I wanted cooler friends and I wasn't gonna be friends with her anymore.
	And I regretted the time I'd wasted hanging out with her or whatever, right?
	What would your parents say if you reported that conversation with your friend Emily?
	They would say, like, how could you do that?
	That's so unkind.
	Um you should go apologize and talk to her.
	Um yeah, they would say that's wrong.
	I that borderline a sin, if you will, um, because we are to show love to others and to our neighbors.
	But that's not what they said about your friend.
	No.
	What did they say about your friend when you reported that conversation your friend had with you?
	Um that I should be kind.
	And maybe.
	Well, they didn't say that she was on borderline sinning and she was being cruel and she should apologize to you.
	Yeah.
	So here we have it's not universal.
	None of these rules are universal.
	Right.
	Um I don't mean to be unfair, and I'm That's okay.
	But I'm trying to I'm trying to understand these things.
	If if they would be quite harsh with you for being so cruel to Emily, then why would they just explain all of Emily's behavior away and not demand any apologies or restitution from her?
	No, that's a real question.
	Sorry, I missed that.
	Well, when you reported the conversation that our made-up name Emily had with you, they gave all these explanations about her behavior and so on, right?
	Right.
	And they did not refer to her behavior as wrong, cruel, mean, sinful, bad, That she owes you an apology that you know they didn't say, well, we've got to call Emily's parents and try and figure this out because that's not right, right?
	But but then if you reported doing exactly what Emily did, well, you were bad, borderline sinful, you owe her an apology, you've got to fix this, you right?
	Yeah.
	So Emily gets explanations and you get condemnation and a demand for change.
	It's the same situation.
	It's the same moral situation.
	Yeah.
	And I don't understand that.
	Yeah.
	Neither do I. Um you pointed out that it's not consistent with just their idea of like what their children should be doing, but also like extending that to other people around.
	It's it's it's a universal moral rule.
	It's not what they want their children to do.
	It's a universal moral rule.
	That's completely uh that's applied in completely opposite contexts, depending on what.
	Depending on what.
	Right.
	What is the difference?
	What is the difference?
	I'm not really sure what the difference like what the why there's that inconsistency that they don't apply this moral universal rule to other people or to you like to know the answer.
	Um I can tell you the answer.
	Let's hear it.
	All right.
	The answer is power.
	Power.
	Yeah, you get punished because they have power over you.
	They don't have power over Emily, so they just make up excuses.
	Right?
	And it's the same thing with you and Sadie's boyfriend.
	Right.
	You have no power over him.
	You feel helpless with regards to him, so you don't even notice that he's being horribly immoral.
	Yeah.
	It's power.
	So your parents taught you that you punish people you have power over and you make up excuses and forgive people you have no power over.
	So it's about power punishment, it's about power, not about morals.
	Okay.
	Tell me if that fits.
	No, that does make sense.
	Yes.
	Um, my problem is that I struggle to um approach people's sins, mistakes, um, bad choices because they have power over me, and I think well, whether they have power over you or not, you have no power over them.
	Yeah.
	So your parents, if Emily was that cruel to you, then your parents should have gone over to Emily's house and said, okay, well, what's good?
	Like, did you say these things to my daughter?
	Because that's really harsh.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Like, that's not that's not right.
	And and this is really this is really bad.
	Like, you can choose to not be friends with my daughter, but it's wrong to say these cruel things to her.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Now, your parents could have done that.
	Yes.
	And the question is, why didn't they?
	If the if these are the rules that they would apply to you.
	I mean, if you said something that harsh to Emily, you'd probably be marched over by your parents to apologize to Emily, right?
	So why don't they march over and have Emily apologize to you?
	Because they have power over you, but not over Emily.
	So it's not universal moral rules at all.
	That's right.
	So then when you're in a situation where someone does something wrong, but you have no power over them, you blank out.
	Yes.
	Just as your parents do.
	Um might have cut out on that last part, would you mind?
	Well, just as your parents.
	Your parents blank out and make up excuses and forgiveness and explanations for people's bad behavior when your parents don't have any power.
	So your parents have power over you when you're five, so they can hit you on your butt when you lie.
	Yeah.
	But your parents don't feel like they have any power over Emily or Emily's family, and therefore they just make up mealy-mouthed explanations and excuses for Emily's cruelty.
	Right.
	So your parents will not acknowledge sin in areas they have no power over.
	That's right.
	And so you have no power over Sadie's boyfriend because he's kind of a psycho liar, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	And so you don't even register that he sinned.
	Yeah.
	Because that's what your parents taught you.
	If you don't have any power over someone, there's no then don't you there's no point registering their sin.
	Right.
	Wow.
	Am I good or am I good?
	Come on, that's pretty good.
	You're pretty good stuff.
	That's pretty good.
	Um then you feel helpless with regards to Sadie's boyfriend, and you feel helpless with regards to Sadie, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Right.
	So you can't be a very good friend.
	Because the purpose okay, let's let's talk philosophically here, right?
	Okay.
	What is the purpose of friendship?
	What is a friend and why do we have friends friends?
	What is the purpose of friendship?
	Purpose of friendship um is connection and um I would say um knowing someone deeply and caring about them, loving them.
	Um loving them.
	Okay.
	Sure.
	What is the purpose of love?
	The purpose of love is to um care about another person.
	No, that's that's just saying the word love with another form of the word, right?
	Uh to think about them to um at I would say at times like put them first um to seek their needs.
	Um their needs.
	What does that mean?
	Well, seek uh to give them what they need.
	No.
	Um not coming.
	A junkie needs drugs, we don't give them drugs, right?
	Right.
	So what is what is the purpose?
	What is friendship?
	I would say um sorry, I'm a little foggy.
	No, it's it's a tricky one.
	This is not like we all have this idea of friendship, and that's good, but we need to know what it is and what it's for, so we know if we're like we're a good electrician if people turn on their power and it works, right?
	Yeah.
	So we're a good plumber if people turn on their taps and they work.
	And so how do we know if we're a good friend?
	Because we have to know what friendship is for and then know whether we're fulfilling that or not, right?
	I would say friendship there is honesty, whether it's um positive or difficult to be honest with someone that you love.
	Um that you can be um open and vulnerable, that you can share your thoughts with them, your deepest thoughts.
	Um you spend time with them.
	Um you show um interest uh uh in their interests.
	Um you listen to what they have to say um you um support them, not necessarily enable, because enabling isn't always a good thing, depending on what it is, but you're you're present for them.
	Uh is that a good list for you?
	Yeah, I mean, a lot of that could be fulfilled by a lawyer cross-examining someone on your listening to them, you're present to them, you're there for them, you right.
	Yeah, you're trying to get the truth.
	So would you say that friendship uh is it a good friend if they warn you away from corruption and encourage you towards morality?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So I would assume that friendship has at least something to do with promoting morality.
	Yes.
	Is that fair to say?
	I I'd say so.
	Okay.
	Now I don't think we can call someone a friend if that person um leads someone into corruption.
	Like a friend is not a friend if they say, oh yeah, you should lie, cheat, and steal, and you know, cheat on your boyfriend.
	Right.
	That that would not be a good friend, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So A friend who helps you become a better person and you help them become a better person is a good friend.
	Yeah.
	Because you know, reason equals virtue equals happiness, and we want uh people we care about to be happy and so on, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Okay, so let's go back to Sadie.
	Were you a good friend?
	No, I wasn't.
	Okay, why not?
	Because I did not um tell her the issues and problems I saw with someone she was um first of all dating, and then she chose to get engaged and marry.
	And I should have been honest with her about um the um what her boyfriend or her interest what he was like before she ended up dating him.
	Or maybe I should have said something when they first started dating, but I wasn't an honest friend, and I didn't um tell her about um the clear concerns and then I should have well I can I could have talked her, but um she can make her own decision in the end, but I should have said something to her, and that's how I was not a good friend to her.
	Right.
	And I mean I sympathize because that of course is what was taught to you by your parents.
	Which is where you don't have any power, you blank out and make up excuses if you think about it at all, right?
	You you shy away from situations where you don't have authority because and then the question is why?
	Right?
	Why, why did your parents and you and and listen, me too.
	Like I'm not I'm not perfect this way in any way, shape, or form.
	So I say this with all, you know, due humility.
	Yeah.
	But why do we veer away from situations of moral import when we lack power um what's what what is it that we're avoiding.
	I think well by not saying something, something negative did happen.
	My idea at the time was if I did say something, something negative would happen.
	So either way, I didn't win, or I didn't can keep the friendship.
	Um maybe I could have kept the friendship if I was honest with her.
	But um veering away from Unlikely, though.
	No, honestly, I mean to be frank, it's unlikely because if she's attracted to this kind of guy, then she's got all kinds of problems that are going to be fixed by you're just being morally blunt.
	Yeah.
	Um I think I would tend to veer away from those situations where I don't see that I would have power over someone is perhaps because I felt like I would be overpowered, or um, someone might get angry at me, and I that makes me feel really uncomfortable when someone's really angry or upset with me.
	I'm a perpetual people pleaser trying to break that.
	Well, no, hang on, because your parents got angry at you.
	You still maintain a relationship with them, right?
	Yes.
	I mean your parents punished you and and took things away from you and smacked you on the butt when you were little and right.
	So and this is I'm just pointing it out, right?
	So the fact that people are angry with you based upon, I'm sure you and your siblings have gotten angry at each other, but I assume that at least most of you are still in contact with each other, so that's not quite the answer.
	I don't want people to get mad at me because you've had people get mad at you and you still maintain their relationship, right?
	Yes.
	Um That's a really good point.
	Um I wonder, like if I veer away because it's not like I like I like things that are pleasant and easygoing.
	I don't like causing trouble.
	So perhaps I veer away so that I don't like cause rip.
	come on.
	If you are dedicated.
	Okay, how long was your mission?
	Oh, it was just a month.
	It was really short.
	Okay.
	But uh how you you've probably put 10,000 hours into Christianity, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Is Christianity about making sure that you never bother any corrupt people or never upset anyone?
	Or is it just about getting along and going along and and nodding and smiling and never holding up to your values?
	It's about holding up to your values.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	And and you know, uh i as Jesus says, if if they hate you, just be uh I can just stand they hated me first, right?
	Yeah.
	And you you are going to be hated if you're a good person.
	Because there are bad people in the world, and the bad people in the world hate the good people, right?
	So I can't imagine you're, you know, a very intelligent young lady, and I can't for the life of me imagine that you missed that part about Christianity.
	Like it's literally in every church I've ever been to, there's Jesus up on the cross.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	So being punished for being good is at the center of Christianity.
	He died for our sins, right?
	Right.
	So you kind of miss that.
	No.
	Okay.
	So again, I need to understand.
	Why do people hesitate trying to exercise moral authority where they lack direct power?
	I have to say I'm I don't know Steph.
	Not sure.
	I think you know, but I think it's hard to access.
	Could be.
	Is there maybe is there some prompting to help me access that?
	Or it just has to be.
	Trust me.
	And leave you and put you on the cross.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So let's let's play it out with Emily, right?
	This made up friend who said that who said to you this, right?
	These terrible things.
	You're a loser and blah blah blah, right?
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	So let's say that um your parents decide to go over to Emily's house, right?
	Uh-huh.
	And they go over to Emily's house.
	And what do you think your parents would have said to Emily and or her parents?
	I think it's probably better to talk with the parents in the room, right?
	So what would your parents have said to Emily and her parents?
	Um if they did that, they would might have said um, um Emily's parents um came home from school the other day and oh I'm sorry, I used my name.
	Um not sure if you can edit that out, but she came home from school the other day and uh she told us about some of the things you said, uh that you didn't want to be her friend anymore, that you that she was a loser, like that didn't want to spend time with you and she wanted to spend time with other girls.
	Like, is that true?
	And I'm not sure if Emily would be honest about that, but if so, like I would like to do that.
	Well, if she lied about it and said I never said that, then your parents would turn to you and say, Did she say that?
	And you would say, Well, yeah, she did.
	Come on, Emily, you did say that.
	Right?
	So maybe Emily would lie, maybe she wouldn't, right?
	But I mean, if I was your dad, I would assume you were telling the truth and I would continue to talk to Emily, and what else would they say?
	Um that was a really hurtful thing that you said to our daughter.
	Um we would like you to apologize for the unkind words you used to her, and we're hopeful that um maybe you can try if you wish to mend the friendship.
	Um that's what comes to mind that they might say to Emily if they approached her.
	Okay.
	And what do you think might happen?
	Um I think uh the parents would be like Emily's parents might be surprised.
	Um and Emily might apologize to me in front of the parents, but I don't think that would change what occurred.
	Um I'm not sure you can change what occurred to the past.
	What do you mean?
	No, um I don't think that would um affect the future of the friendship, if that makes sense.
	Like I don't think the friendship would be mended.
	No, no, no, I get that, but the purpose is not to mend the friendship.
	Yeah.
	Um, what else my parents would have done, or um how Emily's parents might have reacted, or what Emily would have done.
	I think I think that your parents approach is super girly.
	Okay.
	You know, it was hurtful, blah, blah, blah.
	It's like I mean, hurtful is not wrong.
	Yeah.
	My dentist hurts me when he scrapes my guns, right?
	Doesn't it's not wrong.
	Hurtful is not wrong.
	I mean, the truth hurts sometimes, right?
	Yeah.
	So hurtful is not wrong.
	So saying that something is wrong or bad because it's hurtful is very emotional based and not Christian.
	Right.
	I mean sin hurts less than virtue in many circumstances, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, sin is a lot of fun, and virtue sucks, right?
	Yeah, that's true.
	So the idea that we shouldn't do something because it's hurtful flies in the face of all morality, right?
	I mean, if you haven't been to the gym ever and you go to the gym for the first time, it's probably gonna hurt a lot.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	So so the uh just this idea that we shouldn't do things because they're hurtful is I don't know.
	It's just it's I don't even want to insult girls, but it's just it's it's very I don't even know what the right word is, but it's not principled at all.
	Because then if you say, well, if you hurt people you're bad, then what do people do?
	Well, they just fake being hurt to bully you.
	Yeah.
	They're called tribules, right?
	So it's a terrible principle.
	So they wouldn't say that, I hope.
	What would they say that would be a moral principle?
	I think they would probably say, um you said you told lies about our daughter to her because they she said I was a loser and blah blah like I don't want to be your friend anymore.
	Uh and called me things that were not true.
	And so maybe based off of the moral principle of spouting lies to her face.
	So like Emily, you spouted lies to our daughter and that was not right.
	That's then we would like you to apologize for saying those lies to her.
	Is that um does that make more sense on a morality scale?
	Yeah, it's better.
	It's better.
	Yeah.
	But it's not just the lies.
	Okay.
	I mean, calling someone a loser, I mean, a loser is kind of a subjective term.
	Yeah.
	Um I think it would be something like, our daughter has not become a worse person, but you've said something that was, you know, cruel and and mean and wrong.
	And you have to be careful because the cool kids will dangle all of this fun stuff in front of you, right?
	The cool kids will be like, hey, you know, man, be like us, and you know, you'll go to parties and and you'll be popular and you'll look good, and you know, the guys who will want to date you, and and they they're dangling all of this stuff in front of you.
	But none of that is about being good.
	None of that is about being virtuous, none of that is being honest and noble and courageous and all these kinds of things.
	It's about conformity and it's about being bribed.
	So I'd say, Emily, like you're being bribed with popularity.
	And all you have to do is be a total a-hole to your former friends.
	Now that's a bad deal.
	Right?
	Because if you're being bribed popularity and all you have to do is be cruel, that's kind of demonic.
	That's kind of devilish, right?
	That you're gonna be you're gonna be accepted by bad people if you're Mean to good people.
	Right?
	That is uh that is not a good deal.
	And that that it's gonna lead you down a very dark path that really doesn't have much to do with our daughter.
	We're here out of really concern for your soul.
	I mean, I'm not sure they're I'm not sure that our daughter really wants to be friends with you anymore.
	So it's really not about that.
	But it is about the general principle that you know, bad people will come along and say, Oh, we'll give you all of this good wonderful stuff.
	You just have to be mean and cruel to others.
	And then what happens is you end up being mean and cruel to others, and then the good stuff never materializes.
	So you've just been sucker punched.
	Like you've just lost.
	You've just lost out on everything.
	That's that's a real danger.
	Right.
	That's a real danger.
	And you know, we come here not out of outrage about how you treated our daughter, although that's a small part of it, but we come here out of concern for your future.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	That that what's going to happen to you if if you say, okay, well, I'll be mean to my former friends.
	Uh but but in return, in return, don't you know?
	Um I'll get all of this social praise and I'll be cool.
	And and and first of all, you know, your conscience can't help but remember and recall that you were cool, cruel to a former friend for no particular reason.
	And so you'll have to live with that.
	And that's not an easy thing to live with if you have a conscience.
	If you don't have a conscience, you'll be fine.
	But you know, I suspect that you do have a conscience, and therefore you may not be fine.
	That's also a big concern.
	So if you are cruel to people in order to gain popularity, you'll only gain popularity with cruel people.
	They're egging you on, they're cheering you on, they're getting you to betray your friends, and in return, I promise you, you'll get nothing.
	Once once they've gotten you to be cruel to your friends, they just move on to the next person they can get to be cruel to their friends.
	And you will not get you will not get what is offered or what is promised.
	I mean, this is the oldest story in the world.
	This is the story of the devil who offers you all of this really great cool stuff, right?
	All you have to do is portray your principles.
	And then, you know, maybe you get some transitory cool stuff, but in the end, you just you're left with nothing and you regret everything.
	Right.
	Right.
	So that would be the moral approach.
	Yes.
	I think.
	Again, I'm not obviously trying to speak for your parents, but I think it would be something like that.
	Yeah, that actually clears some things up for me.
	So does that one?
	That clears it up for me.
	I felt like my mind was a little muddled.
	So why didn't your parents do that?
	Um By the by, this is not a theoretical conversation.
	I won't any more detail.
	This is not a totally theoretical conversation for me.
	But anyway, go on.
	Honestly, I think kind of goes back to what um we were talking about earlier, just not having power over Emily, her family.
	Um so that they would veer away from that situation because they didn't have um power.
	I also think on but but so not having power is understood.
	Right?
	So we we understand that.
	But the whole purpose of morality is you're supposed to do the right thing when you don't have power.
	Right.
	Right.
	I mean, if a sinner were to say, well, I I just don't have any power over my impulses, he would have an endless amount of excuse for his sin, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	And it would become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
	If I say I have no power over my impulses, over my deepest, deepest, darkest desires.
	If I say that, right?
	It's true.
	But the whole purpose of morality is to say don't assume that you're powerless.
	And if you do a good enough speech, an honest enough, direct enough speech, a speech that's there not to humiliate Emily, but to hopefully save her soul.
	Yeah.
	Right, then you do have power.
	Mm-hmm.
	Right.
	So so saying, well, we're powerless, that's why we avoid the situation is begging the question, how do you know you're powerless?
	Um the thought that's by assuming it it becomes true.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	The thought that just comes to my mind is that um they might have felt that like you don't have control over other people.
	And but then again, like they could still say something and defy.
	But you don't have control over other people.
	That's why we have words.
	That's why we have exhortations.
	Exactly.
	That's where I mean.
	Jesus doesn't hold people's head underwater until they confess their love for him.
	He has no direct power.
	He can only influence and encourage and intercede as best he can, but he can't force anyone because free will, right?
	That's right.
	So I was about to go into that, yeah.
	So the fact that they don't have power does not in any way explain why they don't attempt to exercise power.
	Because how do you know if you have power over someone or not, and by that I don't mean coercive power, but influence?
	How do you know whether you have influence or someone or over someone or not unless you try?
	That's right.
	Um and they didn't try.
	So why did you try?
	And saying they don't have power is not answering the question.
	And I know I know I said so.
	That's why they avoided it.
	But they assume that they have no power, or I don't know, I I mean, I can I can tell you what I think, and you can tell me if it makes sense, or we can go forward with uh your thoughts.
	I'd love to hear um your idea.
	Okay.
	So my basic idea is this.
	So your parents avoid Emily's parents and Emily for the simple reason that they're terrified that morality has no power.
	And that the moral project of mankind is doomed.
	Because people can just laugh at you and roll their eyes and say that you're an idiot and you're goofy and it doesn't matter and morality is a fool's game and who cares and I'm gonna get mine, like all of that stuff, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	So all moralists, except those who have absurd amounts of political power, all moralists are terrified of being laughed at.
	Not because of some big humiliation thing, but all moralists are terrified of being laughed at.
	Because if enough people laugh at morality, the world goes to hell.
	Thank you.
	Like to hell.
	And so your parents are afraid of trying to exercise moral authority where they don't have direct coercive power, because if they get laughed at if they're like, ah, get out of here, it's just kid stuff, who cares?
	Don't give me these particular pious moral lectures, you hypocrites, right?
	Right?
	If they just get laughed at and tossed out on their ass, what does that say about the moral project called virtue?
	Yeah.
	It's doomed.
	We avoid trying to exercise power where we're doubtful.
	We have power because we're terrified of finding out we have no power.
	Now, your parents probably, and I guess deeply do not want you to see them and their virtues powerless.
	That would make sense.
	So why would that be so terrible?
	I think because parents often, especially Christians, want their kids to see them in a light of what they're teaching is right and correct and works.
	No, right and correct is one thing.
	I'm not gonna argue that point.
	But what if you see them try to confront Emily and Emily's parents with the best of intentions and the noblest of speeches and get laughed at and tossed out on their butts?
	Um this could be wrong, but they don't want me to see them fail or as a failure.
	Right.
	Right.
	But you understand you did see them as failures.
	Yeah.
	Was there ever a time where someone did their kids wrong, where they marched over and had the talk or the confrontation or the exhortation or what?
	Something are you saying, did my parents ever do that?
	Uh-huh.
	Um you saw them fail.
	Yes.
	And and when you came to them with the Corruption of the world, they explained it away and never confronted it.
	Yeah.
	So that tells you your parents feel utterly helpless in the face of corruption.
	And I'm not faulting your parents for this.
	I'm not blaming your parents for this.
	Lord knows I wrestle with this on a daily basis, right?
	Yeah.
	So what do words mean when people don't want to listen?
	I mean, if I believe that people still wanted to listen, I'd still be in politics, right?
	So what do words mean when people what does morality mean when people can just laugh laugh it away?
	Well it means nothing to the people who are laughing.
	Right.
	But what does it mean to the hope of the moralists if they repeatedly try to confront the corruption in the world and get laughed at, thrown out on their ass, the cops are called, they're physically removed, they have to flee.
	Like what does it mean when you go out there with a moral project called try to do good?
	And makes feel hopefully people laugh at you and and ignore you.
	It makes them feel hopeless.
	Right.
	Right.
	But you feel hopeless.
	Your parents' hopelessness regarding virtue and its effects on the world has transmitted to you, which is why it didn't even bother to cross your mind that Sadie's boyfriend was corrupt.
	Right.
	Because you can't do anything about it.
	And if you try to confront him on it, he's just gonna roll his eyes and laugh, say you don't even have a sense of humor, it was just a joke.
	What's the matter with you?
	What are you some goodie two shoes?
	Like all of the usual trash garbage that comes out of the mouth of trash garbage people when you can pump them on their corruption.
	That's right.
	So why can't you be a good friend?
	Because friendship is about the promotion of virtue, and you don't think the promotion of virtue works at all.
	So you can't be a good friend.
	And who can be a good friend to you?
	Right.
	So it's see, really good, robust, strong people, and I'm not saying you're not good, right?
	But I'm just saying that there's a bit of a gap here, which we all struggle with, right?
	So I'm I'm right here with you, right?
	Yes.
	But a really good, strong, robust person will expect you to have some strength and revolution, sorry, some strength and resolution in the face of corruption.
	Does that make sense?
	Mm-hmm.
	No, I'm not sure what mm-hmm means.
	Yes, I mean, mm-hmm sounds like you're just kind of following along, but I don't know if you agree.
	And if you don't agree, that's fine.
	I just want to make sure we're on the same page.
	No, I I do agree with you on that.
	Okay, so a strong, robust person will expect what from you in a friendship when they face corruption and evil as we all do.
	To um encourage and promote moral virtue, yeah.
	Yeah, to identify and fight.
	You know, if if if you and I are going into war, I don't expect you to look at your gun and say, I mean, there's no point.
	You can't hit anyone anything.
	They're just all ghosts.
	You can't hit anyone anyway.
	Because then I don't have an ally.
	I have someone I kind of have to take care of while I'm also trying to fight a battle.
	So friendship means that you have to be able to identify evil and corruption and fight against it, or at least help your friends avoid it.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	Because with Sadie, you let her get married to a psycho.
	And you didn't even identify him as anything negative because your parents had taught you there's no point identifying evil and corruption outside the family because you can't do anything about it.
	Because how do we know that?
	Because your parents didn't do anything about it.
	Right.
	And I'm not blaming them either.
	Like it's it's a tough it's a tough road to ho.
	Yeah.
	Trying to talk the world into being virtuous is an intensely vulnerable, difficult and dangerous position.
	And one of the most difficult and dangerous aspects of it is the problem of despair.
	And this is what corrupt and evil people do is they laugh at the moralists, so the moralists give they get blackpilled and they give in to the sin of despair.
	And we can of course look at all the good men and women throughout History who got attacked and tortured and killed and imprisoned and ostracized and right.
	It's it's constant, right?
	Yeah.
	So why can't you have good friendships yet?
	Because you can't have to pretend friendships of corrupt people because you're a good person, but you can't have the robust partnership of virtuous people because you don't believe in any power of virtue outside that which you have direct control over.
	Right.
	And I'm sorry to give you some big recipe here, but hopefully that makes makes some sense.
	No, that does.
	Thank you.
	So then the challenge is.
	I mean my view, I would talk to my parents and say, well, what's your view of virtue outside the family?
	I mean, do they do stuff?
	Do they go and, you know, preach on the street corners or do they I mean you were a mission, right?
	Do they do stuff where they confront corruption and immorality and attempt to wrestle it over to the land of goodness.
	Um not with others, which is we've identified as a problem.
	Well, that's that's the only thing I'm talking about.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Um are they honest and say, look, it's fine to be virtuous, but no one's ever going to really listen to you unless they're already virtuous, or you have direct power over them like they're your kids.
	I don't think they've said that, right?
	No.
	So there probably is more the more honest and robust conversation to have about the problem of despair.
	Yeah, I'll be interested to have that conversation with them.
	And your siblings too, it'd be interesting to know what what they do.
	I mean, I obviously have my my strengths and my weaknesses, my virtues and my faults.
	Um trying to wrestle with corruption in the world.
	Uh I think I've done a fairly decent job of it over the last 40 years.
	Um but, you know, I mean, it's obviously not perfect, whatever that might mean, but I've certainly wrestled with it and had some reasonable and decent success.
	But it is it is a real challenge because if you are a virtuous person and you want to help and spread the cause of virtue, oof, man, you you're gonna you're gonna have some exciting times.
	Oh yeah.
	It's not true.
	And I think that your parents probably didn't do enough to stand up to corrupt people.
	I mean, did they ever see, say, children being mistreated in the world and do something about it?
	Um like like out and about, like on air.
	Yeah, you're out and about you see some parent screaming at a kid or pulling a kid or yelling at a kid or hitting a kid or something.
	Do they ever think about that?
	Not that I can recall.
	I mean, but we see this stuff, right?
	Yeah.
	So that's important too, right?
	Yeah.
	Why not?
	Why wouldn't you say something?
	And and that's an interesting question.
	And and I, you know, I've always said, like, I'm not I'm not convinced it's always in the best interest of the child to say or do something, because you know, the parent might take it out on the kid later.
	Look, look, you you embarrassed me, you you know bla blah blah blah, right?
	But I think that is an interesting question.
	Which is if we want the world to become virtuous, what are we doing to spread goodness?
	And it's not enough to say I'm having kids and punishing them.
	That's not enough.
	And and the the answer is individual.
	There's there's not one answer for everyone.
	But I do think that it is a really interesting question.
	And I think with regards to yourself and your friendships, you want good friends, but you're gonna have to learn how to help promote virtue in people you have no power over.
	And then I think almost like magic.
	This is my philosophical answer.
	Magic, right?
	But I think once you get that skill or that commitment that you, you know, if you could go back in time, what would you say to Sadie when she was just starting to date this guy?
	Um probably tell her that like you remember what he said about his like this big story and he laughed at us and he like didn't seem very sorry about lying to us and No, no, no, no, no.
	Okay.
	Sorry to be annoying.
	Okay, first of all, you don't you don't ask you don't start with a question.
	Not did you remember, but he did this.
	Yeah.
	Statements.
	Right.
	And then he didn't seem very sorry.
	He wasn't sorry.
	He well he celebrated it.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	I mean, if I'm dancing on my enemy's grave, nobody could accuse me of being sorry that they died, right?
	Yeah.
	So, you know, he he celebrated it.
	So he's because the more you hedge, the harder it is to um help people do good.
	Right?
	Because like if if your doctor says, look, if you if you keep doing things this way, uh you you you are going to um you're gonna die.
	Like some doctors will say that.
	Like if you keep drinking, like you're going to die.
	Right?
	As opposed to, well, your health might not be ideal, blah, blah, blah, right?
	Yeah.
	Like you gotta be blunt.
	That's a nice way of going about it.
	Well, and listen, I understand, and you know, I I live in girly worlds, right?
	Because the wife and daughter, so I understand that that there's a female temptation to to hedge things and so on.
	And I get that.
	Um maybe this is you know, m more masculine to just be be blunt, because you know, men, if we do something that sucks, what do men say?
	You suck.
	Um they're very direct.
	And the girls are like, well, maybe that could have been slightly better.
	You know, that kind of stuff, right?
	So I'm not sure you know how to talk to girls about this kind of stuff, but I think the bluntness is probably the best the best way to go because the other thing indicates uncertainty and fear.
	Right.
	And like, look, I'm I'm sorry, because you know, I I I've hung out with this guy and I've you know the b humility is reasonable, but something like um, you know, this guy told us he was in a dangerous criminal gang and he told us he was a dangerous criminal, and he said that this wound on his leg was the result of a knife fight from a criminal gang, and he let us believe that for months.
	And then when he finally confessed that it was all a lie, he laughed about it, celebrated it, and blamed us for being for believing him.
	That's not healthy.
	That that's not healthy.
	That that's somet that's something wrong with seriously wrong with this guy.
	Now maybe it can be fixed, I don't know.
	But every alarm bell in my mind is going off about this.
	Now maybe she'll choose him and ditch you.
	Okay, that's a shame.
	That really is, but you know.
	Better now than later, right?
	Yeah.
	Um but the more you hedge the more soup and fog and all of that, and and I think people need direct statements.
	Yeah.
	In order to have the best chance that you know, I mean, if if you sin too much, you go to hell.
	That's pretty clear, right?
	Not like, well, you know, maybe it wouldn't be the most ideal thing for your life as a whole in the long run, blah, blah, blah.
	Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	And you just go on with your thing, right?
	That's right.
	Yes.
	Um I tend to do that.
	I'm sorry.
	Oh, I know.
	No, I know.
	I was all over you about the uh the uh soupy-gooby language.
	And and I I appreciate that.
	I understand that.
	And listen, I I appreciate and understand and actually value women's delicacy about these kinds of things.
	But when it comes to saving people's souls, uh delicacy is a sin.
	Yeah, gotta be direct.
	Gotta be direct.
	You know, like the doctor does not help you if he doesn't tell you the actual risks.
	Exactly.
	Right, like if you get married to a guy who celebrates a huge dangerous pathological lie that he held over people for months, it could be the worst decision of your life.
	Because if he if he lied to us, he's gonna continue to lie to you.
	He might lie to your kids.
	You won't know what to believe that's coming out of his mouth, and I think it will be one of the worst uh one of the worst situations to be in as a as a wife and as a mother.
	So I'm you know, I'm I'm really, really scared and worried about where this goes with the guy.
	I I you know uh or you say, at least at least let me talk to him.
	At least let me, you know, like next time we get together, uh I'm just telling you, like I'm I'm gonna kind of confront him on this because this is pretty toxic behavior and I I you know I care about you.
	I don't care that much about him, particularly now.
	But I'm going to um talk about him.
	Now the other thing you might do is if she doesn't listen to you, then the next time you're together, you just confront him.
	And then when you confront him, he'll probably get really angry and and attack and and raise his voice.
	And then it's like, okay, so this is who he is.
	And it's and then it's clear like exactly.
	So then if you've if you've got the theoretical thing that he's a bad guy and then he's yelling and and cursing and blah blah blah blah blah, right?
	And and then if she's like, yes, he's the greatest guy in history, he's all I want to marry, right?
	Then it's like your conscience is now clear.
	Like you gave her everything that you could.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Yes.
	So I do think that that is the best thing that you can do.
	To have your conscience be clear.
	And that's really, really important in life as a whole.
	Yes, it is so and I think if you can do that then you'll you'll have friends who will want to have that kind of friendship with you because you're watching their back, they're watching your back and you're both ending up as better people because of it.
	And they're not going to come to you.
	See the problem is if you have well a problem is if you have friends who don't have a good strong moral sense and and a robust directness and clarity in the pursuit and advocacy of morality, what happens is they stagger from disaster to mess to catastrophe to problem to and all you're doing is propping them up all the time it gets exhausting.
	You see and what did you say to me at the beginning of the convoy back and catch people.
	No, because you said to me at the beginning of the convo you said I'm I'm the helper.
	I'm the one who listens did I remember that right?
	Yes that's true.
	Right.
	So what that means is that your friends are having problems and you are trying to help them.
	But what you want is people who aren't having constant problems.
	Yeah.
	If that makes sense yes that does.
	Okay.
	How are we doing I feel like I have a lot of clarity.
	Thank you for your insight.
	You're both welcome is there anything like big or massive that um I missed or or that would be helpful to check at the end I don't think so.
	I think I we targeted the issue that I really wanted to tackle.
	So beautiful beautiful all right the combo I hope you'll keep me posted about how things are going you can just drop it into the chat window here.
	Because you know I I really appreciate the question and I also hope that I didn't come across in any way superior because I wrestle with this stuff pretty regularly too.
	So I really do appreciate the the chance to talk about this this topic.
	That's awesome.
	Thank you.
	I appreciate your feedback I appreciate it.
	Take care keep me posted.
	All right have a great day of course goodbye.

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