Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux - SHOULD I FLEE MY MARRIAGE? CALL IN SHOW

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Aug. 13, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:37:28

SHOULD I FLEE MY MARRIAGE? CALL IN SHOW

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	Hi Steph, I would like to do a call in and see if you could help me work through staying married or getting divorced.
	I got married eleven years ago and I've felt alone the last six or seven.
	We dated about a year.
	For the most part, the dating period went well.
	She was easy to get along with.
	The red flags during dating on a trip was cut short because she said my friends, whom I had not, whom I had not seen in years, said I was cheating on her.
	It would have been totally out of character for them to say that.
	So I did not believe her.
	I was not and have not cheated on her.
	We were also both divorced, which is another red flag.
	After getting married, we had a kid together, which went into postpartum depression for her about a year.
	During that time, I spent a lot of time with the kid, who basically came my only friend.
	I spent a lot of time taking care of her.
	A lot of nights, I would not even eat.
	I would just play with her.
	Lost about thirty pounds.
	I cut myself off from the k most of my local friends and rarely spoke to my friends who were not local.
	I had moved several years earlier for work.
	Then COVID hit and we were on opposite sides.
	Her father, who was in another country, died from being exposed to a caregiver who was not vaccinated, which I am not.
	He was not in good health to begin with, but she blamed the unvaxed, which was me.
	At this point, I have not.
	I have I had been living downstairs and we had stopped having sex for a year.
	During this time, I tried reproposing to her thinking that it would bring down the wall between us.
	Her reply was the heart wants what the heart wants.
	So that didn't work.
	Months later, I moved back into the bedroom.
	My daughter was still in her bed, which she uses as a shield from me.
	My wife said she didn't approve and I replied I didn't want what was going on and she could leave if she didn't like it.
	Recently, they moved to another bedroom because I said we were harming our daughter by not making it her sleep in her own room.
	She is nine.
	Our problems that have arisen.
	My wife had a wreck before we met and now doesn't want to ride in the front seat.
	She would ride up front before COVID.
	I don't want to be a chauffeur and feel it is disrespectful and asocial.
	I am a cautious driver.
	She is also a big seatbelt advocate and constantly tells me to put on the seatbelt.
	My daughter picked up on it and for years scolded me for it.
	One day after my daughter was screaming seatbelt as soon as I as soon as we got into the car.
	I told her I wouldn't wear it anymore, which broke my relationship with her.
	I have started wearing it again, but the relationship is still not where it was.
	Also during that time, my wife would start fights with me, angry in front of, to get me angry in front of the child and further degraded my relationship with my daughter.
	I would not yell but did raise my voice.
	I did not like arguing in front of the child, which was what made me angry.
	Then I realized what was going on.
	But only after damaging the relationship, I stopped.
	Another stupid argument we got into was asking her to put down the recliner portion of the couch.
	When she got up, she refused, saying it was too hard.
	I went and bought an electric couch, which she still doesn't recline.
	End of the year, I filled out divorce papers.
	My daughter found them and brought to my wife.
	I really don't want a divorce, but thought she would realize, uh, things had to improve.
	Shortly after my wife got a DUI with my daughter and another girl in the car, I started a fight.
	Or I stayed around after, um, after to make sure my daughter was taken care of and possibly fix things.
	Since then, I try to come up with things to do on the weekend, but they don't want to.
	My daughter is on her iPad all day and my wife watches four movies and cooking shows in front of in the front room away from me.
	So I go for a drive just to get out of the house during the week.
	I ask to do things when the answer is no.
	I go get golf balls and go to a park just to stay away, which I find depressing.
	We tried marriage counseling.
	She gave up both attempts because the blame did not fall on me.
	I tried a marriage coach at the beginning of the year and he was having me work on work on me which worked for about a month and then we fell back into the same patterns.
	I'm not sure what I'm asking but want to feel like I've tried everything I could before giving up.
	Maybe I already have.
	I read the statistics on daughters and unrelated men in the house and do not want my daughter.
	But I feel that risk is less than seeing her dad run over and depressed.
	I'm 54 and in good shape so good start.
	But I owe it to my daughter to do what I can.
	The relationship has been damaged enough that I'm not sure how much she would want to see me and have been so undercut by my wife that there's no real say in the house.
	Love your call, and I was hoping I could see what I'm missing.
	Again, I'm really, really sorry to hear this.
	It's very, very tough.
	Very tough situation.
	So before we get to the marriage stuff, tell me a little bit about your parents', still married.
	They fight a little bit, but not crazy.
	I guess my dad kind of not bullies her, but he gets aggravated with her every now and then and that comes across and she does the same.
	It wasn't like bad, bad, but there was a little bit of that.
	I know you're big on spanking.
	I mean, I was spanked as a kid, but it wasn't like beatings or anything.
	It was random or it wasn't random, it was rare.
	It was more of the threat that was there.
	I have two brothers.
	One died in a car wreck in high school and the other one's younger than me.
	We were brothers so we fought all the time, really.
	And it was pretty much the older brother and the younger brother fighting me because the younger brother was going to side with who was going to win.
	I don't know anything further you want on that or need or?
	Um, how old were you when you met your wife?
	Um, so it was twelve years ago.
	So I was 54 now.
	So 42.
	Okay.
	Tell me a little bit about the, I know, 20, 20 plus years of dating before meeting your wife.
	Um, so, um, I don't know, uh, during high school not a lot of dating in college.
	Um, we would go out.
	I I was pretty much very promiscuous.
	Um, after college, I even through my twenties, I was pretty much dating a lot.
	Uh, got married, um, in my thirties.
	That didn't work out.
	And, uh, started dating again and wasn't, you know, I'm a little older, so not, not dating as much, but still dating a fair amount.
	Okay, uh, tell me a bit about your first marriage.
	Uh, so, um, we were, uh, we dated for a little while.
	Um, she said she was pregnant.
	Uh, so I proposed.
	It turns out, either she had a spontaneous abortion or she wasn't preg know which.
	I found out before we got married, but I don't know.
	I thought I was a nice guy and could, you know, deal with whatever.
	And it turns out I couldn't.
	There was a lot of accusations and jealousy on her part and she had been married several times before.
	So she was dealing with a lot of, I guess, trauma that was not processed.
	And were there red flags with your first wife, sort of looking back when you met?
	Oh yeah.
	Oh there was a ton of red flags.
	I mean she was beautiful and.
	She could, you know, I guess you've ever heard, I guess the more beautiful the crazier.
	It was she was definitely, definitely some red flags.
	We go on trips or we went on one of the first trips we went on, she accused me of looking at some other girl that was in the on the trip with not with us but there and I wasn't.
	But, you know, it still escalated into a huge fight.
	How quickly did things escalate from there?
	Um, so we dated, uh, probably seven, eight months, and then, uh, then the pregnancy thing happens, and then, then we got married, uh, I don't know, probably four months after that.
	So it was, it was pretty quick.
	Um, sorry, was it, was it on the honeymoon that she thought you were looking at, or was it just the first vacation that she thought you were looking at other girls?
	It was both.
	Both.
	Okay, it was both.
	So there's a kind of jealousy thing going on, right?
	For both of you.
	Yeah, it was a Yeah.
	Uh, the my first wife.
	Yeah, the my current wife., she's not really that jealous, I guess, but because of my first wife, I'm very conscious about it.
	So I, you know, like, I don't go out of my way to talk to any women.
	I try not to, you know, when I'm playing with my daughter, I give the phone numbers that I get to her.
	So she gets to set up dates and that kind of thing.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	And what's your rough body count?
	It's fairly significant.
	Um, at least fifty probably.
	And with regard to the women that you slept with, do you think that most of the women wanted to have a relationship with you or was that, um, you know, kind of mutually understood one night stand stuff?
	Yeah, I've never, yeah, I've never led anyone home.
	I mean, it was always kind of mutual.
	Okay.
	And a lot of those, you know, in college you're out drinking and stuff like that.
	Um, and it, yeah, so there was, there was no attempt to lead anyone home.
	Okay.
	Tell me a little bit about your history with drinking.
	In college, I didn't really drink that much in high school.
	So get to college and I drank pretty significantly.
	Drank pretty much up until probably got probably getting married.
	I probably was, you know, I was definitely more than average.
	But really kind of cut it off, I guess, about the time we were I started dating and getting married this last time.
	Okay.
	And how close are you to your parents?
	I try and talk to them once a week.
	You know, it's mostly service level stuff, but you know, they are there supporting me and they, you know, it's a good relationship.
	Okay.
	And how's your doing pretty good.
	He's, I don't know, he's been married.
	He got married shortly after college and he's stuck with his wife, uh, pretty much the whole time.
	Where do you think your promiscuity comes from?
	Uh, I don't really know.
	Um, I think it's more out of boredom and loneliness.
	I, I, you know, with something to do is kind of what the group that I was hanging around, that's what, what we did.
	Have you had any early exposure to pornography?
	Not really.
	Um, when I was a kid, uh, you know, though it wasn't like it is now, where you could go look, you know, you'd have to go buy dirty magazines and stuff like that, um, which I never really did.
	Um, I mean, maybe I saw it once or twice, but nothing, nothing crazy.
	Did your parents talk to you about romance dating, relationships, sexuality?
	I'm just trying to sort of figure out because it's almost like the default position is promiscuity for men, if you can get away with it.
	But are your parents religious?
	Did they teach you anything about sexual restraintint or or pair bonding or anything like that?
	They are religious.
	More so now than when we were kids.
	The talk that I did have with my dad was after I was in college and it was basically, you know, where kids come from, don't have one.
	That that's it?
	That was pretty much the discussion is, yeah, no, no, don't, don't, don't have an out-of-wedlock kid.
	Okay.
	And when did you first start dating?
	I dated, I don't know, a couple of girls in high school.
	So I was probably 16, 17, somewhere around there.
	Okay.
	But it was service level dating, it was, you know, go here, do stuff, and that was about it.
	Yeah.
	Did your parents talk to you about dating and how to have a relationship or what to look for or how to make it last or how to resolve conflicts or did they give you any kind of training on that?
	No, no, we never really talk about dat that.
	I mean, what kind of Christians are they?
	Yeah, um, yeah.
	They definitely could have done better, um, as far as that goes.
	They did better.
	They did pretty much nothing.
	Yeah, yeah, there was Yeah, there was really nothing.
	Um, yeah, there was no, no guidance as far as dating or anything.
	Yeah, just.
	Sorry, I'm not sure if you're done your thought.
	Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm I just didn't know where to go.
	I'm, yeah.
	Well, what do you mean, what do you think of that?
	Um, I definitely would not do it with my daughter, but I just think that's the way things were back then.
	No, no, no, that's not it.
	No, Christians have been teaching their children about romantic and sexual morality since Jesus' time.
	Um.
	Um, maybe it was uncomfortable.
	I um, yeah, I um, I'm struggling for why, but I I I can't think of what it is.
	Do you know if they talked to your brother about it?
	I guess you wouldn't know if they've had private conversations.
	Did he ever mention anything like that?
	No, I'm pretty sure they they didn't.
	It was pretty much the same, him and me.
	But your parents did spank, right?
	Yes, yes.
	But it wasn't it was it was rare.
	Maybe a couple of times.
	but it was.
	There were threats of, you know, watch your dad get home, that kind of stuff.
	And so for what kind of behavior would you get punished or threatened?
	Um, I do remember me and my brothers fighting in a car, um, and kicking the, uh, emergency brake or the gear shifter, and we rolled down a hill and wrecked it.
	Um, and so I they blamed it on me.
	I'm not real sure I did it, but it was so long ago, but I did get spanked for that.
	That was the one, I guess, the specific Spain that I can remember.
	Okay, but what about other kinds of punishments or maybe for verbal discipline or something like that?
	They would, you know, I'm you can tell by my accent I'm from the South, so it was very yes, ma'am, no, ma'am, that kind of talk.
	You mean like being polite and respectful?
	Yeah, yeah, being very polite, very respectful.
	guess, uh, whenever they would, uh, you know, whenever the adults are talking, the kids should be quite quiet.
	Uh, um, but But there was a it was mostly if things got out of hand, it was wait till your dad gets home and, you know, he'll he'll he'll straight out.
	Usually though, we were, you know, the problems would be me and my brothers would fight.
	So it was mostly just trying to get us apart more than than, than, than shouting at us, you know, just, you know, stop, that kind of stuff.
	Okay.
	And how often would your parents get upset with your behavior, say, in a given week or month?
	Um, it was probably every couple months, something would go.
	Um, so it wasn't, it wasn't often.
	We were, you know, we were pretty well behaved kids.
	And so there was no, it wasn't a lot of, a lot of times, um, a lot of problems.
	Uh, it was a problem.
	It's probably once every couple of months.
	So maybe three or four times a year, your parents would correct you on something that I remember that was significant enough to where I would remember, you know, remember it.
	I don't remember like a lot of the corrections.
	I don't know.
	I mean, it just seems like, you know, it if it wasn't something catastrophic, I don't remember it a lot of times.
	Oh, of course.
	I mean, I'm not asking you to remember things that you don't remember, but I mean, you, you're a.
	you're a dad, right?
	I mean, do you do you think that level of course correction for your children is good?
	If she was fighting with somebody I can see kind of not yelling but you know, I got stopped and pulling her off and that kind of stuff.
	I I I I don't spank my kid, never have.
	I mean, really, I'm probably I'm probably a little closer to being more a friend than a dad to tell you the truth.
	Oh, it's not great that I, you know, that I would get corrected, but I don't know what else they would have done to tell you the truth with three of us and if we're fighting all the time.
	So, Jeff, tell me a bit about the fights.
	What would you fight about?
	Just, you know, you're you're you're you're kids, you're gonna fight or boys would.
	You know, he stole this, I stole that.
	You're not really stealing anything.
	You know, they've misplaced it or you've misplaced it and you, you know, you use that as an excuse to do it.
	I don't, there was no common theme behind any of the fights.
	It was mostly my, my older brother, he was a little, um, he liked kind of causing problems a little bit, so he and my younger brother, they, he would, you know, start fights with me.
	I don't know.
	I, I, I do remember we, we were walking or I was picking up Lego sticks.
	And one of them was broke and he tripped me.
	Just, you know, just tripped me and it went into my eye.
	no real permanent damage, but definitely he got whipped pretty good for that one.
	I don't know.
	Thank you.
	That and I, yeah, I don't.
	That's one of the fights that I that I that wasn't really a fight.
	It was more of a, you know, push, push you down or trip you up and.
	And what I'm sorry to dig this up, but what what happened with your brother who died in the cockpit?
	Um, he'd not been driving very long and, uh, he swerved around a car and then when he came back into the other lane, his tire went off the, uh, the side of the road, which I guess it kind of fell and jolted him a little bit, so he swerved, um, back into an oncoming truck.
	Oh gosh.
	Okay.
	And he was killed instantly.
	Um, the guy right riding with them was killed instantly.
	I think he lived for, I don't know, maybe an hour or two after that.
	I'm sorry about that.
	It's very tough.
	Okay.
	Now, do you believe that it's kind of inevitable that siblings are going to fight in this kind of way?
	Um, I just assume that's what boys do.
	Um, I never really give it much thought.
	And so, you know, I've got a girl and she's.
	That's the last thing she'll ever do.
	Yeah, it's not inevitable that boys end up fighting in this kind of way.
	I know families where it's like.
	three boys and a sister and the boys all get along.
	They don't fight.
	They support each other.
	They help each other.
	They teach each other chess and help each other on playgrounds.
	And it's not, it's not inevitable.
	And how close would you say you were with your parents growing up?
	Um, pretty close, I guess.
	Um, my dad was a coach.
	So, you know, we played a lot of sports and he was always the coach.
	Uh, so we had a lake house.
	So we were pretty tight in, I think.
	So you could go to your dad if you had some kind of personal problems, problems at school, bullying or anything like that?
	I don't remember ever doing it.
	But if someone was bullying me, the reply would or someone ever hit me, the reply would have been, you know, in a mac.
	Right.
	How did your parents relate to you and your brother's fighting all the time?
	They just tried to calm us down.
	And I don't remember ever, you know, any anything ever coming of it.
	You know, it was basically get us separated and calm us down.
	And I don't, I don't remember, you know, they probably did say, you know, you shouldn't be fighting.
	You know, when we go out to places, you know, you'd always get the, we're, you know, we're out in public.
	You all better not be doing this kind of stuff.
	You know, get those kind of warnings.
	But as far as.
	How to stop them or anything like that.
	There was it was, you know, just in in the fight that we were in and uh, and like, and you know, just wait for the next one, I guess.
	I I don't, you know, I don't know what they were their plan was besides that right okay and would you say that your parents displayed any particular skills with regards to parenting um they were lovely um at least I think they were They were always you know,
	they were they were there as far as not having to worry.
	about them.
	I think they're, you know, they provided you good examples, I guess, as far as maybe outside of that, that portion of the parenting.
	I think they were good people.
	Not real sure.
	Past that though, I guess.
	Well, I mean, we have to be kind of rigorous, right?
	What do you mean by good people?
	I'm not saying they weren't.
	I just want to know what your definition is.
	They held good jobs.
	They, you know, they they said.
	They said they were going to do something, they would do it.
	They helped other people, I guess.
	They were well liked.
	I don't know, my dad was a coach, so, you know, he was kind of a role model, probably, for a lot of kids.
	I guess I said it.
	And your mom?
	She was a school teacher.
	You know, she was always very a little probably overprotective of us.
	I guess.
	She was.
	Yeah, she was.
	She was, you know, had a lot of friends.
	People liked her.
	I'm not sure, you know, what else.
	Okay.
	So where did you get your sense of dating or relationship or sexual morality from?
	I mean, did you think about that or were you just like half drunk and looking for opportunities to have sex?
	Yeah, just have drunk looking for opportunities.
	I don't, you know, nobody ever really modeled it for me.
	You know, it was good to college.
	What your parents did to someone, right?
	I mean, they were monogamous and stayed together.
	Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, they definitely they definitely modeled better behavior than what I did.
	100%.
	Okay, so where was the gap?
	Where did that gap come from?
	I think it was just going to college and seeing what was out there.
	I was, I don't know, when I guess in high school.
	school that, you know, I'm living under their roofs, so I'm not really going out and doing anything crazy.
	So there was a lot less opportunities to date.
	Right, okay.
	Do you think that your dating strategy was it, I mean, you got married, sorry, how old were you when you married your first wife?
	I was thirty, probably thirty two, thirty three, somewhere around in there.
	Okay, so that was a good like fifteen years or whatever since you started dating.
	And what was your longest relationship prior to that?
	Probably about a year.
	I know at the end of college I dated that girl for probably about a year.
	So yeah, probably a year.
	And who was this give me the characteristics of the sanest woman you dated?
	The most mature and the most wise.
	Probably the girl that was coming out of college.
	She was fairly calm.
	She really didn't go out and do much.
	She She was she was pretty smart.
	And she was attractive to.
	She got along with me for the most part.
	And yeah, I guess that was her characteristics.
	Okay.
	And what happened with that relationship?
	We went on a trip and.
	She she kinda became not clingy but kinda naggy and I was I just didn't wasn't willing to put up with it.
	Naggy about what?
	Naggy about what?
	Uh, I don't, it so it was like a party we were going to and she didn't want to hang around with some of the people and it just created a lot of drama that I didn't think needed to be there.
	And so after that trip, we never spoke to each other again.
	And did you break up at the end of the trip or shortly thereafter?
	Um, it was pretty much evident during the trip that it was over, but we had to drive home, so it was a long drive home.
	Yeah, I bet, I bet.
	Hmm, okay.
	And how much did your parents know about your dating life, your dating history, your promiscuity, and so on?
	Uh, not really at all.
	I kind of kept all that stuff away from them.
	I don't, I don't know.
	I never wanted to let them down.
	So I would not tell them about any of that stuff.
	They didn't even really meet my first wife until we proposed and I guess, of course, we're going out there to get married because they wanted to be, they wanted a formal wedding.
	So they kind of planned it and we went up there.
	So they didn't, they didn't even better before that.
	So did your parents ask you about your dating in your teens and twenties and early thirties?
	Um, no, they never did.
	Um, come on, man.
	You say this like, what are you talking like?
	Does this seem totally normal to you?
	Am I just out of limit here?
	I felt like I should keep it from them too, to tell you the truth.
	Um, I don't know why, uh, but I don't know if if you know a girl's not gonna be around, I would I would never bring it up or anything like that because you know she's not gonna be around.
	Okay, you say you have a good relationship with your parents.
	I'm not gonna disagree with that.
	But if you have a good relationship, say with your daughter, could you imagine her sailing into her thirties and you have no idea who she's dating?
	Yeah, that would be a problem for me.
	Yeah.
	So help me understand the difference here.
	Um, I'm a guy, I guess.
	Um, so less chance of coming home with a with a with a pregnancy that you'd have to deal with.
	I mean, you still would, but not to the extent.
	But there's no difference.
	Um, yeah, there's no big difference.
	I probably should have had more talks about it with them.
	Well, they should ask, right?
	It's their job.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, yeah, it should have.
	Okay, um, and what about your working life in your twenties?
	Um, so after college I got a job, I was basically driving a forklift, um, at a place and, uh, I don't know, I wasn't making a great money, but I was, you know, it my lifestyle didn't require a lot and I had a couple of people living with me, so, uh, so money was really no problem.
	Uh, after that I went to another company in another city basically to be closer to friends.
	And then that they laid me off from that job and that that went to Mexico.
	And then from there, my buddy, another buddy of mine was starting up a company and I went to work for him in Florida or in another state and we did that for a year or two and money wasn't great, but there was a lot of potential that fell through when the housing market crashed in 2008.
	Right, right.
	Okay.
	And how's your career gone since then?
	Since then, um, so I got a job while I was there, um, like a W2 job and, um, it, the money was okay.
	I mean, it was, it was not, not great.
	Um, they, uh, they got bought by a company in another state and, uh, I, uh, I, I, I, I could have stayed where I was at and been okay, but, um, I figured I needed a, uh, change, uh, or I would just keep doing what I was doing, you know, which was, you know, going out and, um, not, not really.
	Not really having any, any, any future plans.
	So I came out and, uh, that company, I stayed with them for about nine years and then, uh, they laid me off and went to Mexico and then, um, I've had a couple of jobs since then and the last one I'm in, I'm making pretty good money and I've been here probably six, seven years, six years probably.
	So tell me a little bit about this seatbelt thing that's interesting that that would be sort of a foundational crack in your relationship with your daughter.
	Yeah, so I guess I don't really like wearing the seatbelt and I really care, but I don't like being told, you know, you you know, you have to wear your seatbelt.
	And it only really got annoying when every time I'd get in the car, my daughter would scream, Seatbelt.
	And so then I would put it on for a while.
	And then, you know, this went on for years where my wife would say it and then my daughter picked it up.
	And then so now.
	So now, every time I get in the car, she's screaming seatbelt.
	And I just one day I just had enough of it.
	And I'm like, I'm done with this.
	No more.
	Uh...
	Thank you.
	You would have I could have handled it better, one hundred percent.
	And I guess on another level, so months later, one of her friends was in there and, you know, said something about me wearing my seatbelt.
	And I told my daughter, you gotta stop talking about this.
	This is done.
	And then that girl who had been her friend for several years has not really been back since then.
	So was it me?
	Probably.
	But I, you know, I I don't know.
	I mean, it sounds I'm trying to understand the transition between you're very close with your daughter early on when your wife was going through the postpartum and you stayed up all night with your daughter when you lost the thirty pounds and so on.
	So how did things drift so much?
	So that was a thing that did it.
	Also, I. I this is my wife would start kind of picking fights with me.
	I think she had probably contacted a lawyer.
	I actually I know she had contacted a lawyer, but I don't remember whether she was picking fights before or after.
	And I don't I don't want to argue in front of my kid.
	And it aggravates me that I had to argue in front of my kid.
	So I get agitated.
	I wouldn't yell, but I would raise my voice a little bit.
	And I think that scared my daughter too.
	And there, I guess, when we were.
	Um, during COVID, when there were problems, I'd go downstairs for weeks at a time because there's a COVID scare.
	Um, I'm not feeling well.
	I'll go down and, and, you know, hide out in the basement for a couple of weeks.
	Um, So I kind of lost touch that way.
	And then there was a year basically where I was just sleeping in the basement, which further distanced me from my daughter.
	And there was some depression at one point where I was going to bed at five o'clock, because, you know, what's the point?
	Now probably that was probably another six months.
	So I think all those things combined kind of killed kind of killed the relationship.
	You killed the relationship.
	So give me those steps.
	Well, not killed it, but reduced it to where And also I think she's getting older.
	So, you know, I'm like, hey, let's go to the park.
	And unless one of her friends is there, she doesn't want to go.
	Yeah.
	And I guess I'm not, you know, when we're younger, I would play with her, you know, and.
	And as she gets older, I kind of let her play with the other kids and kind of step back.
	And I think she still kind of wants someone to play with her sometimes.
	So I think that not having another friend there kills her desire to go out and do other things, which leaves me kind of out the cold and her just sitting on the couch with her iPad.
	Right.
	And what's her relationship like with her mother?
	sits in there with her and they're, they're, I mean, basically the, I don't know, the pendulum pendulum has swung for me kind of being in, you know, doing everything for the kids.
	Now the mother does everything for the kids and kind of they hide out in the front room and, you know, she watches TV and my daughter plays on the iPad and I'm just sitting there going, this is not healthy and I'd leave because,
	you know, I don't mean, more aligned with her mother because it sounds like her mother is like yelling at you about the seat belts and then your daughter is yelling at you about the seat belts.
	Is they kind of aligning that way in their perspective of you?
	Yeah, they're both kind of or they're both um together and it's me kind of on the outside looking in.
	And when did that most begin to change?
	Uh, it's probably about three, three years ago.
	I'm guessing, I'm guessing, um, during the COVID time, probably when I was downstairs, um, so I, you know, I'd disapappeared for a good year just kind of staying away from them.
	Because, you know, I I don't know.
	I I would say good morning and good night, but I would pretty much leave because, um, because I'm just kind of there all alone, not really doing anything.
	Uh, so it was probably about four years ago and it's just kind of one little thing kind of after another.
	Nothing big, nothing major, just steady degradation.
	Right.
	So tell me a little bit about this COVID thing and your wife's perspective on this.
	I assume she got vaccinated, your daughter maybe, and you didn't.
	So how did the COVID stuff ripple through your household?
	So she was very scared of it, which at first I was a little scared of it too.
	And I listened to a lot of conspiracy people and they were very thinking it was a scam.
	Well, at first they thought that the Chinese were coming to kill us all and then it turned into it was a scam.
	And that's kind of where I've realized.
	I fell on it because, you know, they had a bunch of doctors come in and talk about it.
	So I was very much anti about everything COVID.
	I wouldn't wear a mask.
	I wouldn't I didn't get vaccinated.
	We also didn't go anywhere during this time.
	So because I wouldn't wear a mask.
	Her she she never said she got vaccinated, but I can almost guarantee she did.
	She also got diabetes about that time.
	Result of it, I don't know because I don't know the timing just seems suspicious to me.
	Her father got COVID and.
	And I guess he was in really bad health to begin with.
	So, you know, any a cold to kill you basically at the kind of health he was in.
	So they had a non-vaxed nurse who lied on the application saying she was vaccinated, come in and administer some stuff for it.
	And then they blame her for giving him COVID, which now the non-vaxed, which would have been me, I think she kind of blames me for it.
	And we did go to like counseling and stuff like that during that time.
	Uh, Thank you.
	Sorry, I wasn't sure if you finished your thought.
	Go ahead.
	Oh, yeah.
	So we did go to counseling during that time and the counselor not really taking my side, but just kind of poking her saying, What else should he, should he have done?
	kind of questions.
	And then we never went to that counselor again.
	Did you sort of both mutually agree that it wasn' pretty much I was told that we're not doing that anymore.
	Like, okay.
	Uh, so no, it was it was definitely not mutual.
	Um, we did try another counselor and uh, she didn't like her for it.
	That one she just didn't like.
	And then, um, she said, We're not going to do it.
	So we never went back to that one.
	Um, after her DUI, she was, uh, I don't know if it's court mandated or court endorsed or whatever, but she started going to another.
	And that the DUI was probably, I don't know, it was, they were still swimming last year or so, you know, towards the end of the year though.
	So the, the, the talk was, you know, once once you're done with that, we need to go to the council and we need to get this fixed.
	But there's been no, no talk since then, since I guess right before she got, got the, well, I guess right after she got the DUI.
	that that was kind of what we were we were discussing and that was probably the end of the year.
	And how serious was the DUI?
	I'm sorry, DUI.
	Um...
	Thank you.
	So they took her to jail.
	I went and bailed her out.
	And then she had to spend because there were minors involved.
	There were two kids in the car and she ran over something.
	I don't know what.
	Maybe the sign in the middle of the road.
	And someone had followed her home.
	Uh, and call the cops.
	So it was.
	It was pretty bad.
	Yeah, it was.
	Um, but like I didn't notice her slowing her words.
	I didn't notice.
	I didn't notice anything that would have made me assume she was drunk outside of she she ran over something and did a little, I mean, very minor damage to the car and having someone follow her home and call the cops on her.
	I would I would probably never have known it if that hadn't happened.
	Okay.
	Now, what has been the sort of sexual arc or frequency in your relationship over the last twelve years?
	At first it was good.
	I mean, after the kid it kind of died off, which fine.
	I, I, you know, we got a kid, I, I'm, I'm okay with that.
	It, I guess, it came back after for a little while.
	And then the COVID thing hit and we were kind of on opposite sides of that.
	And I slept in the basement for a year.
	So there was really nothing.
	No contact at that point.
	When it came back, I guess there were.
	But like currently, it was probably the beginning of February the last time there was any.
	And before, you know, and I guess I had started like a daily coach about that time and it seemed to work for about a month.
	But before that it was probably another four or five months.
	So in the last year there's been one good month.
	Okay.
	And does she talk about it as something that's a problem or does she seem relatively comfortable with it or where is that?
	There really is no talk.
	They kind of sit up in the front room and, you know, there's good morning and good night and not a lot of talk besides that.
	I did, I don't know, maybe a month ago, tell her I was like, I'm not going to be celibate for much longer.
	And I don't know what that means.
	I don't know if that, you know, it means I got to get a divorce or I mean, but I just know it ain't happened much longer.
	And I and I told her she didn't.
	really respond and nothing's really changed.
	And when was the last time that she pursued you to try and help or repair things in the relationship?
	It's been a long time.
	We are doing a trip that she did set up and got my parents flights and all that kind of stuff.
	So I mean, that that is nice and that is sorry.
	What do you mean?
	So well, her parents or her mom and her.
	Or her mom and her mom's boyfriend are going to come visit from another country in a month.
	And they're going to stay for a couple of months.
	And during that time, we're going to go on a trip.
	And so she booked it all for my parents and our families and kind of set it up, which is nice.
	But I really think the reason why she did it is so that she doesn't have to go to my parents and sit on the couch for a week or let my daughter go with me and miss her for a week.
	Okay.
	So I guess it's nice, but it's I I don't really think that it was nice to be nice.
	Right.
	And how have you guys maintained sort of weights and exercise?
	You said you're still in good shape at 54, but how how is your wife doing with that?
	She's gotten heavier, she doesn't really do any exercises.
	She's pretty sedentary and it's not good, but you know, it's as bad as things are, that's the last thing I can talk about.
	And does she have an income?
	Yeah, we both were.
	We both got pretty good jobs.
	I don't know, she's probably a little over a hundred.
	I'm a little under a hundred.
	And she did at one point tell me, you need to get another job so we can make more money.
	And at that time, I was like, I want to be here for my daughter.
	I I got a low stress job.
	I don't want to look for another.
	Now I'm, you know, and now I don't care if I'm considering how my relationship iss deteriorated, but at the time, I thought I would get to spend a lot more time with my daughter if I didn't get another job.
	And what does she want to buy with the extra money, do you know?
	Nothing in particular.
	We're debt free, one hundred percent.
	We own our own home.
	We own both our cars.
	So there is no financial need for it.
	I mean, outside of maybe retirement, we, you know, we couldn't use something for that.
	But there is no it's not a financial need.
	You know, maybe it could be a status need.
	I I don't know.
	So.
	When was the last time that your wife seemed to want to seek out your company?
	Oh, yeah.
	It's been years.
	yeah it's been it's been years I I can't remember one.
	It's probably been a couple of years.
	I do.
	She would wear, I guess, sexy stuff at one point, probably like two or three years ago to do.
	to, to, you know, to entice me.
	But I don't know, we got a kid in our bed that, you know, there is no.
	Ticing when you when you have a kid that's in bed with you for nine years.
	I mean, currently they're sleeping in another room because I basically I told them that it's not healthy for my daughter to do this.
	I mean, not healthy for us, but it's worse for her, I think.
	So yeah, it's it's been probably two or three years since she's actually maybe.
	three or four.
	It's it's been a long time since you initiated anything.
	Yeah, I mean, I'm not just talking sex, but just in terms of like desire for your company, pleasure in your conversation, that kind of stuff.
	It's been it's probably about the same amount of time.
	I mean, we will do stuff together, but it's mostly do stuff for the daughter, not for us.
	Like what?
	I go, I don't know.
	There's like a themed restaurant we went to a couple of times that my daughter likes.
	Before, I don't know, probably a couple of years ago, we would she would set up dates where we would go to like a fair or some kind of festival that they had, but it's been it's been a couple of years since we've done those.
	But my wife was always good about setting them up before.
	And if you were, I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't, I don't know, but if you were to suggest something like that, how do you think it would go?
	I suggest something every weekend.
	I'm constantly trying to find something for us to do together.
	And so usually what will happen is I'll go to my daughter and say, Do you want to do this?
	I think it'll be fun.
	And she'll kind of do the no, no.
	And what she's looking for is her mom to kind of give her the okay to go.
	kind of what it seems like to me um I don't know Probably three or four months ago, I did suggest one thing and they said both of them said no and then turned around and went to the off the event that I invited them to without me.
	And I'm like, that's probably been a year ago.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And it was, you know, I'm pretty aggravated about the situation.
	I didn't say enough to them, but their mother, who doesn't speak English, was in the house during that time.
	And she could see that I was, I was irate about it.
	And she tried to ask me if everything was okay, but she didn't speak English.
	So I'm like, Yeah, everything's fine.
	But shortly after that., she tried to leave the country, go back home.
	Wait, her wife?
	No, the, uh, the mother in law.
	The mother in law.
	Because, yeah, she just didn't want to be around it.
	It being your marriage?
	No, um, the unhappiness, the, you know, the, not drama, but the, you can just see that there was, there were problems that she didn't, she didn't want to be around.
	I mean, she she knew that I was aggravated about something.
	She couldn't figure it out because she didn't speak English, but because of that she, she, she was going to leave.
	I think, I think my wife talked her to stay until the normal time, which is only like a week away, but she did try to leave early because of it.
	So what's the case for staying in the marriage?
	My daughter, I don't want her to be raised by another man.
	I said that, I don't know.
	I mean, I guess financially it's it would be good to stay in the marriage.
	But I don't have a.
	A good case of, yes, we need to.
	It seems like I'm the only one who really wants to fix it.
	So.
	Apart from trying to find things that you guys can do together and doing some counseling and so on, what else have you done to try and repair or fix things?
	I don't, I mean, I've tried to like invite her to lunch and stuff like that.
	And usually I, I, you know, there is no.
	And I've seen during the lunch, we kind of work through some of these problems, but she doesn't really want to.
	And I don't push it.
	I guess I should push it, but I don't.
	You know, we did try the counseling and I just try to invite them to do things.
	I don't know, I bought like a little card game where you ask the family questions and got my daughter started to open it up, got my daughter to start playing and then tried to invite my wife who said I don't want to play, which then in turn means my daughter doesn't want to play.
	And now I've got the card sitting here going.
	And, you know, this was supposed to be family bonding, but it's not.
	So I just put them away and just went about and did something else.
	And I mean, how's your heart doing?
	How's your soul?
	How's your spine?
	Um, in the last, I don't know, year, I've just been thinking I need to get out and start dating again.
	So I've kind of been getting prepared, especially in the last, I don't know, six months.
	You know, I started exercising fairly regularly.
	I lost a little weight.
	Trying to be more friendly when I go places to people.
	So yeah, I'm just kind of getting prepared for when I get single.
	Right, right.
	Okay.
	And do you have a sort of decision point or a time point at which you want to make a decision or is this call part of that?
	So her parents or mom and her mom's boyfriend are coming in town in the next I don't know when she didn't even give me a day but it's got to be in in the next month.
	And I guess they're gonna stay for a couple months and I don't want to do it during that.
	So I'm kinda gonna give it, you know, three or four months and see if it improves.
	And if it doesn't, then make my decision.
	And your wife is aware, of course, if you've talked to her about your unhappiness and what you want to have changed and so on, right?
	She knows I'm unhappy.
	I don't think we've ever got into specifics of what I want changed, but I do.
	Invite them to do things.
	And, you know, just try and have a normal family, but it doesn't seem reciprocated.
	Well, it doesn't seem or isn't.
	It isn't.
	It isn't reciprocated and it isn't acted upon either.
	Right.
	I mean, I really, really, really sympathize.
	It's a very, very tough situation because it's not like you guys are throwing crock pots at each other or anything like that.
	So it's not like something which is I guess the danger is has your wife stopped drinking?
	So before that she was drinking a fair amount because I'd go to bed and so I wasn't even aware really for a good part of the it, she was drinking as much as she was.
	But you know, you would see the bottle a lot emptier than it was the day before and you're like, you know, what's going on?
	I was kind of thinking she might be going out and, you know, because I'm a pretty heavy sleeper, so I was thinking maybe she was, you know, leaving the house and going and doing stuff.
	I don't think that's the case now, but it, you know, while she'd be drinking alone that much.
	So I'm guessing she's depressed and that's how she was dealing with it.
	And how long ago was it DUI?
	It was the end of swim season last year.
	I'm not sure what that means.
	They mean the end of school season?
	Swimmed.
	So they were they were at a pool.
	So I don't know exactly which month.
	So maybe August you can swim in.
	Oh, so it's probably August time frame.
	Sorry, I was on the swim team.
	I thought you meant swim team season.
	Okay, my my bad.
	Okay.
	And do you know, has she has committed to not drinking?
	Because she obviously can't be drinking and driving, right?
	Yeah.
	So she's pretty much cut it out.
	Yeah.
	I Yeah, it's she's not drinking really anymore.
	So at least I haven't noticed it.
	And when we do go, if we do go somewhere, it's she's she's not drinking, which I don't think we've maybe we've been to one or two since then.
	But yeah, she's she's she's cut out the drinking.
	And how close would you say you are with your brother?
	Does he know much about any of this?
	So I've told my parents, I don't know, probably three, four years ago., I bought I we, during COVID, we were down to one car and because things got so bad, I bought another one just because I was like, well, if I leave, I've got to have something.
	So probably about four years ago, I bought one and then kind of told my parents about what was going on and so then they told him.
	And he probably called me about it maybe a year or two ago.
	So he knows, but we don't, we don't talk that much.
	I don't know.
	We maybe talk two or three times.
	We talk during the holidays when we see each other, but as far as phone calls, maybe once or twice a year.
	And he waited a year or two before talking to you about the problems in your marriage that you heard from your parents?
	I don't know when they told him.
	I think he as soon as as as soon as he found out, he did give me a call, but they may not have told him the initial because I I told them I told them when I bought the car kind of what I was thinking.
	And then maybe a year or two later, I'm still kind of telling them the same stuff.
	And it's not like I it's not something you want to talk about with them.
	So, you know, you don't, you don't, you only tell them like once a year.
	And I don't know, my dad did say, you know, you need to leave if you're going to leave, maybe a year or so ago.
	So he's, he's, you know, he did at least talk to me about it.
	And that was probably about the same time that my brother had called me, I guess, maybe that was probably when it was.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Well, listen, I appreciate.
	I appreciate all that information.
	Thank you for the data.
	My instinct or my urge is to be very emphatic here, but I don't want to short circuit you, so I want to know your level of comfort with my emphasis.
	Yeah, I want to be as neon as possible.
	I don't want to miss something.
	Okay.
	So, yeah, tell me whatever you think I can I need to know.
	Well, I mean, my my God man, who are you close to?
	Who have you ever been close to?
	I was pretty close with my friends like through college and stuff.
	I was I was very, very close to them.
	And that's really probably about it.
	You were a promiscuous social alcoholic.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I was.
	Did they call you out on that?
	No, they were all doing the same thing.
	So then you can't be close?
	You might have had a lot of shared experiences, a lot of shared drinks, maybe even shared some women, I don't know.
	But it's not the same as being close.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, but that's, I don't know, that's what I had.
	I I thought that was being close at the time.
	We still I still go see it, you know, we we just did a guy's trip, um, a month or so ago.
	So we're still, I guess, not really telling each other our problems, but at least going out and having fun once every couple of years.
	Okay.
	Do you do you know what's going on with your friends' lives and their marriages and their hearts and health issues or whatever?
	Um, I did find out some health issues on one of them when I was there.
	Uh, but like, I don't talk to them.
	We don't get we don't have calls and stuff like that.
	Basically, we got a text tag stream and that's about it.
	Do you do you do you get a sense of just how distant you are from people?
	Yeah, yeah, I I I definitely do now as everything's kind of, you know, as we get further away, yeah, you know, everybody's married and they're living on the other side of the country.
	Yeah, I'm not feeling very comfortable.
	Come on, come on, come on, come on.
	Don't, don't be shallow out of me, bro, too much.
	I'm not talking about geography.
	Yeah, but yeah, I I I I I don't have anyone with whom I really go out with or do things with.
	No, it's just kinda me.
	I'm not talking about going out and doing things with.
	And I don't have anyone really talking with either.
	I mean, I I you know, I can't.
	I did have one friend who recently moved out that I went to college with.
	And I don't know, we we're going out and, you know, watching sports, but it's not.
	More than on surface level.
	Right.
	I mean, your parents when you were growing up were incredibly distant from you.
	That's sort of what I was talking about or asking about earlier.
	With regards to did they teach you any goddamn morals at all?
	Anything about how to live?
	I mean, you know, don't steal, don't hurt people, be a nice person.
	They did that kind of stuff.
	Were you in great danger of becoming a cat burglar and a guy who beats people up?
	No, not really, but okay, so that's not a particular problem.
	Yeah.
	But they sure as hell didn't invest in you as an individual and they sure as hell didn't get to know you as a person and work to protect your heart and mind and soul going forward.
	And they did not intervene as you spiraled into promiscuity and social alcoholism.
	And they didn't even ask you who you were dating or what was going on.
	And they didn't warn you about red flags in people.
	And you didn't even say to them, yeah, and I was on this date, but this, I went on vacation with this woman and she accused me of looking at another woman.
	And your father would then say, boy, son, that's a real red flag.
	We need to sit down with her and we need to work this out.
	We need to keep you safe.
	Yeah.
	How long did you date your wife?
	My current wife.
	Before you get married.
	We dated about a year.
	Okay.
	Did you ever share anything about that year with your parents before you got married or any of your concerns about the red flags?
	Um, no, because I, I don't know.
	I just didn't feel good about sharing it with them.
	And do you know why he didn't feel good about sharing it with them?
	Didn't want to let them down, I guess.
	No.
	Why didn't you want to share anything with them?
	Didn't think they cared, maybe.
	No.
	What evidence?
	See, I care some asking questions, right?
	I've probably asked you more questions in the last hour.
	15 than your parents have asked you your whole life.
	Am I wrong?
	Yeah, um, yeah, we never really talked about films.
	I mean, it was always going to, I don't know, doing basketball or another sport, uh, or going to the lake, but it was no real input for me about what it was.
	What we were doing.
	It was, this is what we're doing.
	Okay, I think you missed what I said.
	Yeah, yeah, no, I I I did get it.
	Yeah, there is no conversations that besides surface level stuff.
	And that's, that's, son, I was like, yeah.
	He has how to bounce a ball.
	He has how to throw a basket.
	He has how to hit a baseball.
	oh, son, you got to do your step as opposed to actually helping you with your real life.
	you you you you you you you you Thank you.
	Yeah, God.
	God bless.
	Yeah.
	I definitely should have.
	No, no, no, no, not you.
	should have.
	They should have.
	Yeah, they definitely should have.
	They, listen to me, they should have.
	They should have shown deep and genuine interest in what you think and feel and what's best for you so that you don't have to invent the wheel, invent the road, invent the car just to get anywhere.
	They're boomers, aren't they?
	Yeah, yeah, they would be boomers., for whatever, I don't know, it's like something was in the air or something.
	But boomers are so profoundly disconnected from their own offspring, it's almost kind of shocking.
	Yeah, I just don't think that they talk about that kind of stuff.
	It's mostly surface level, I guess.
	I don't know if they even talk about it amongst themselves.
	Well, I don't know either, but I will say that you not being interesting to others is a 54 year curse.
	Because now, right now, you're in a situation where you are uninteresting to your wife and daughter.
	And how are you supposed to feel interesting to them?
	when you're not even interesting to your own parents or your brother yeah i'm older than him so i probably should have been more interested in him so i okay let's let's hang on let's before you start lacerating yourself right from what model would you learn how to be interested in people younger than yourself like who would have taught you that
	yeah i'm i'm i'm i mean i wouldn't have learned anything i guess there's no way i would have learned it um well if you want to teach japanese somebody has to teach you japanese right yeah so tell me what do you think about what i'm saying um
	I do think that, yeah, not that I don't think I'm uninteresting, but I feel like I have to have a point to everything I'm saying, typically in a conversation.
	So you have to have a point, what do you mean?
	I struggle for conversation just for conversation's sake, and sometimes you just need that to make a conversation go.
	But I've always felt like that there should be a point to whatever I'm saying.
	So, um...
	So I would think that not being recognized or kind of, you know, let the adults talk kind of still is there a little bit in the back of the mind going, you know, you shouldn't really talk unless you've got something important.
	Well, so you feel that you have to provide a value.
	I think that's what you mean by a point.
	Like, oh, here's something interesting or here's something funny or here's something like you have to provide a point.
	Yeah, you have to provide some kind of value in in conversation yeah exactly yes that's that's it it's like a trade yes right and you have nothing to trade with your wife and daughter at the moment is that right yeah um yeah i i don't i don't i don't really know what they wanted this but i'm right And what culture is your wife
	from?
	She's from Russia.
	Russia, okay.
	Sorry, remind me how did you meet?
	Online, um, it was she wasn't like a foreign bride.
	It was, you know, she lived here, she was American citizen and we just met online.
	Okay.
	Right.
	And I think you said about both the year-long relationship at the end of college and this relationship or this marriage and your first marriage that the women were very pretty, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Um, yeah, both yeah, they yeah, very, very attractive.
	You kept your hair, didn't you?
	What's that?
	You kept your hair.
	Up until recently, and as we were doing this call, I did notice that the sun was shining in, and my head was shiny.
	That could be stressful.
	It's only been recently.
	Yeah, but I mean, 54, that's pretty good, right?
	Or bad, depending on how you measure these things, right?
	All right.
	So, you...
	Your parents normalized you not being interesting for your own sake, interesting with regards to yourself.
	Thank you.
	So I can see that definitely, especially with the adults are talking.
	Y'all go somewhere else kind of stuff.
	Yeah, definitely see that.
	Yeah, children should be seen and not heard.
	Yeah, yeah.
	I grew up with that.
	I mean, that's a bit of a boomer thing.
	Oh, my mom was pretty boomer.
	She's greatest generation.
	Okay, so I think you are very used to people not being interested in you.
	Just don't tell me what you think or what's your perspective or what's your opinion or I think that you have to kind of provide value like a waiter, if that makes sense.
	Like a waiter.
	I mean, the waiter will chat with you, of course, right?
	But the waiter's just trying to make sure you have a decent connection so she gets a good tip or something like that.
	and then of course you're only really chatting with the waitress or waiter because They're going to bring your food and you know you might as well have a pleasant experience and interchange because of that right Yeah, yeah, that's uh yeah, that's probably most of my interactions is just being polite to each other just for polite sake and not that deep.
	Right.
	So you have to provide value in an economic sense and that, or in a, I'm trying to think it's sort of like economics, but you have to please the person by being someone other than who you are.
	That's the magic formula I'm looking for.
	I think in your mind, you have to please the other person by being something other than who you are in your natural state.
	Because, you know, if you have your thoughts and your feelings in your natural state, then you are going to chat with people spontaneously of thoughts and they're going to find them of interest.
	They're going to bounce back, you know, and that's your natural state.
	It's your natural flow, right?
	It's the difference between, you know, a conversation and a comedian.
	The comedian has to write all the jokes.
	He's got to prepare them.
	He's got to rehearse them.
	He's got to get the crowd feedback.
	He's got to get the timing.
	He's got to have the practice.
	He's got to know how to work the mic.
	Right.
	So a comedian is he's not in a natural flow state.
	A comedian is in a state of entertainer.
	And there's nothing wrong with that.
	I mean, that's what you pay and go and see a comedian for, right?
	I mean, the first time I was on the Joe Rogan show, I went to see Joe do a show and then seeing Joe do a show and then sitting with Joe at a table.
	I mean, they're not the same animal.
	Of course, right?
	How could they be, right?
	Yeah.
	So I think for you, you have to be.
	I mean, I talked about this many years ago in my Robin Williams presentation, the Me Plus.
	You can't be you and be a value, just into a sort of natural flow state, where you're sort of thinking and speaking and maybe a couple of jokes, if they pop into your mind.
	It depends on people's level of general sense of humor.
	But I think, I think.
	that you can't feel both relaxed, spontaneous, and interesting.
	You've got to do something.
	You gotta work in it.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, good.
	I mean, if I, I don't know, if I call somebody, it's for a specific, hey, let's go do this.
	Let's, let's do something.
	Um, I don't ever really call anybody just to, just to talk.
	All right.
	Or it's like what you say to your family or you say to your daughter is, let's do this.
	And she's like, well, I'm kind of too old to go to a park just with you.
	And, right.
	Or you say to your, yeah, your wife.
	And your daughter, let's go this, do this event.
	They say no, then they end up going on their own.
	So you're in a state of suggesting activities rather than presenting yourself in a natural state.
	Yeah.
	And they kind of sit in the front room and it's not really conducive to more than two people.
	And I think that's on purpose to kind of keep me away to tell you the truth.
	But, um, well, it's kind of like, I mean, have you ever been on a cruise?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I always remember the love boat from the 70s, uh, which we watched sometimes.
	Uh, Julie, the cruise, she was the cruise director, or no, the social director or whatever it was right now.
	Now, the woman who's like the cruise director or the social director or the activities director.
	I guess this also happens at summer camps or whatever, right?
	So Julie comes in and she says, oh, hey sailors, hey fellow travelers, here's a list of all the cool things you could do today on the cruise right and we got uh bocce ball on the lido deck we have uh um oh god if a friend of mine went on a cruise where they had laser tag uh on one of the decks uh there's an arcade and you go swimming and uh bowling and whatever right um and
	She's giving you all these activities.
	Now, you would not expect Julie to come up and say, oh, man, I'm having a really tough day.
	I don't really know what I'm doing with my life.
	And, you know, I feel like I'm just this kind of half plastic entertainment doll.
	Like you would be like, hang on.
	Wait, sorry.
	What was happening on the Lido deck?
	I mean, I guess that's important to you, but I'm kind of here for a vacation.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	So I'm more of a tour director versus just being there.
	Yeah, right.
	So that's why I asked at the very beginning about your...
	You guys barely talk about anything.
	And they conditioned you to believe in your core that you have to be constantly providing value rather than just being yourself and talking.
	It's transactional, not spontaneous.
	I can definitely see transactional in a lot of my conversations.
	But tell me what you think about what I'm saying.
	I definitely think that yes, I I feel like I've got to bring something to the table as far as any conversation.
	Um, I'm not really good at generating like opening conversations, but I'm pretty good at playing off of whoever else is talking and making jokes and stuff.
	Um, and that's probably a little bit of why I'm not.
	Is, um, I guess because I need to.
	I'm, I'm, I don't necessarily have something to present or whatever to open up the conversations a lot of times.
	So I don't necessarily talk or open them up unless there's a reason for it.
	Well, I've been trying to scan for some emotion over the course of these 90 minutes.
	I literally had my eyes closed, listening as hard as I could to the questions I was asking you over the first 45 minutes.
	And I'm like, okay, where's the feeling?
	Where's the int of emotion?
	Where's the been a long, long several years and maybe I've just given up on stuff.
	But that's not what you call me for.
	Yeah, I know.
	I don't want to give up, but maybe that's I think I've got emotion.
	I, I, you know, I but maybe it's just a surf level emotion.
	I don't know.
	I mean, it's not, it's not a criticism at all.
	I'm just trying, I mean, you're, you're wrestling with just about the biggest and most powerful decision of your life, which is whether to stay or leave.
	I mean, that's a horrible situation to be in.
	That's why I said sort of earlier, like it's not like you guys are throwing crock pots at each other and it's like you've got to get out to save your life, right?
	It's all just hollowed out.
	It is definitely hollowed out.
	It's a bunch of straw men in a straw people in a house together.
	Yeah, that's where it.
	And I think that might be worse for my kid than me not being here.
	Well, I'm trying to hedge you off from what I think would be a worse decision than staying or going.
	And I know that sounds like a bit of a paradox.
	Sorry to be obscure.
	But there's a worse decision than staying or going.
	And the worst decision is to go and end up with the same damn thing again.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Because then it would be like, okay, so I blew up my family and now I've got this new.
	girlfriend, lover, wife, whatever, right?
	Maybe even have kids again if she's younger, but and they just end up at the same straw people in a silent house.
	Yeah.
	That's the worst part.
	That's the worst potential, isn't it?
	Yeah, that's yeah, that would be definitely the worst case scenario.
	Yeah, 100%.
	And so that's my concern is that you're leaving an empty.
	non or like a non-relationship you're leaving that and you said well i'm 54 i'm in good shape i want to start over maybe When it's not over, maybe it's not over, right?
	But if you haven't identified how you got here, how are you not just going to end up here again?
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Yeah, I mean, third marriages, I would imagine are even less reliable than second marriages.
	And you've listened to me for how long?
	Probably five or six years.
	It's right.
	And maybe even longer than that.
	Okay.
	And I appreciate that.
	And of course, I do appreciate your subscriptions and support massively.
	But you've listened to me for, and this is not a criticism, right?
	I'm just pointing out how hard this stuff is to see.
	Like, genuinely, it's really, that's why I'm very glad that you, you emailed.
	It's really hard to see.
	Okay.
	So you have listened to me for like five, six, seven years.
	And you didn't come into the conversation.
	And again, this is still criticism.
	This is just like, it's really hard to see this stuff.
	But you didn't come into the conversation saying, Steph.
	You know, I've kind of listened to your show for a long time.
	I've heard you really connect with people, man.
	That's missing from my life.
	And I think it's been missing from my life all the way from my childhood.
	I never really connected with my parents or my brother, you know, or, you know, I've got a body count of 50, which means I don't connect with women very well.
	And now I'm in a marriage, right?
	Not connected to my wife and daughter.
	Thank you.
	But you're operating at a level of, well, she blamed me for her father's death and COVID, which is, I'm not saying that's wrong.
	I mean, that's as an astute and very intelligent and sensitive analysis.
	but it's missing the machinery that's really going on at the base of things.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Thank you.
	I mean, if you're going to stay or if you're going to go, I don't know.
	Obviously, I can't make that decision for you, neither would I try.
	But if you don't know how you got here, you're just going to end up back here.
	at Grand Hawk Day.
	Yeah, and...
	Thank you.
	I mean, when I know you don't speak Russian, obviously, when you when your mother in law was over, I mean, was she close to your wife?
	Um, they talk a fair amount.
	Um, it's Cafe Dada, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Um, whenever she came out, like right after my daughter was born, she stayed for like six, seven months, and that got to be too long.
	So they did get on each other's nerves.
	Um, but, you know, for a month or two, they're they're they're good.
	But she also must have had some kind of distance in her childhood that She's not like, I mean, this this has been going on for years, hasn't it?
	Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's it's it's it's been going on for years.
	Yeah.
	Um, yeah, like her childhood was, um, I guess her father divorced her, her mom.
	And, uh, so there's, uh, gotta be a lot of trauma associated with that.
	Um, and then, um, I guess he lived with her and her boyfriend.
	So kind of a very strange relationship.
	Her father lived with her mom and her mom's boyfriend.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	But he couldn't really take care of himself and how long was he disabled with the stroke for?
	Several years.
	Probably at least four or five.
	Wow.
	And then he died of COVID, they said, right?
	That that's the story.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I mean, who knows, right?
	Who knows?
	Okay.
	And is your wife younger?
	Yes, she's in her forties, so yeah, she's younger than I am.
	And why why did you decide on one child?
	Or was that a decision or just what happened?
	It was not my decision.
	I wanted more.
	I was told it is not my decision and I can't have any input in it.
	And you guys had discussed that before you got married, is that right?
	Or you did, but you changed your mind?
	No, we didn't discuss it before marriage.
	I just assumed, stupid, but I just figured everybody wants two or three kids.
	But they don't.
	So, personally, I don't think that jumping out of this marriage without trying to solve with everything you've got this distance problem is going to change that foundational principle in your life.
	Okay, yeah.
	We, all of us, all of us in sort of intimate personal relationships, we, all of us, need to find something of value or believe that we have something of value outside of what we manufacture and provide to others.
	You know, in a sense, we can't be waitresses or waiters.
	And because you grew up, and it's not, obviously, I'm not putting the entire blame on your parents, I mean, but I assume that teachers and educators, I know your dad was the coach for the most part, but maybe you had some others.
	Did they find value in you alone?
	Or did they find value in you as the provider of some kind of resource?
	You know, I mean, if you're going to go out for a baseball team, they want to know how well you can throw catch and hit, right?
	They're not looking at you like, are you a modeler?
	Are you a good person?
	Are you, you know, a good comp, like throw, catch, hit, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Are you relating or are you auditioning?
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, I would think most of most of my relationships have all been transactional as far as that kind of stuff goes.
	Yeah.
	I mean, you're saying most, that's great.
	And that's true of everyone, by the way.
	Most, most of everyone's relationships are transactional.
	So tell me the ones that not.
	I can't think of any.
	Yeah, I can't.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so let's find this one.
	I'm just trying to provide value yeah so let's try this on for size um What's the most honest thing that you could say to your wife about where you're at?
	If she was in the room with you and you could look her in the eye, no interruptions, what would you say?
	We have to fix this.
	No, no, I can't.
	No, no, that's not honest.
	That's a plan.
	about what you think and feel, not what you need fixed.
	I don't want to be divorced.
	I don't want to have to go through this.
	I'm staying in here more of obligation than anything else at this point.
	That's that's that's all consequentialism, what you think and feel.
	I feel depressed.
	I feel scared, I guess, that, you know, this is all going to go really bad.
	I feel unloved, uncared for, uh Yeah,
	just frustrated I guess it's mostly what I feel you What about alone?
	Lonely?
	Yeah, I definitely feel alone.
	Yeah, I definitely feel alone.
	Okay, so tell me a bit about that.
	Solitude.
	Um, bored out of my mind, uh, playing video games just to have something to do.
	Uh, going on car rides just just to do something.
	Not really wanting to come home because of how things are.
	so I'll stay gone just, just to be out of the house.
	Uh, yeah, Thank you.
	Yeah, it's completely alone.
	What about rejected?
	What about rejected?
	What about rejected?
	Yeah, definitely reject it too.
	Uh...
	Thank you.
	I don't see the point in being mar having a relationship if you don't want to be in a relationship.
	No, I know you're lecturing.
	Let's get back to your feelings.
	Okay.
	isolated, lonely, rejected.
	Thank you.
	Unsure of what to do?
	Uh.
	Thank you.
	Yeah, just completely alone, completely bored, completely, uh, unsure of even where to start.
	Going or doing anything past this.
	What is your sense of time passing now that you're 54?
	Got maybe 30 years to go.
	Declining years.
	Yeah, that's why I'm kind of thinking, now is the time I have to do it now or I'll be 70 and doing this.
	Doing this, I did think of waiting till my daughter was eighteen And then, and then making the decision, but I can't do it that long.
	I don't think.
	Now, what about a change?
	I'm not trying to obviously put thoughts in your head, but I'm trying to put myself in your shoes.
	Is there a sense of panic?
	A little bit, yeah.
	Tell me about that.
	If I stay, I'm going to be miserable for the next thirty years.
	Probably get a divorce when my daughter hits eighteen and be all alone.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yeah, 63.
	Not a place I want to be.
	And if I go now, I could still get 63 and be all alone.
	Probably wind up killing the relationship with my daughter.
	So I just don't know.
	I don't know what to do.
	There's no good choices outside of making it work, which I'm not in control of well you have influence i do i mean i'm i'm not in control of this conversation but i have some influence right yeah yeah yeah i mean i definitely i i could make things better but how i don't know well honesty directness let me let me ask you this
	It's a ridiculous image, so I apologize for that.
	But what I'm sort of thinking about is me versus a dolphin.
	I know this sounds ridiculous, right right?
	The Mivos is a dolphin.
	So what can I do?
	I can go underwater.
	I can hold my breath for maybe a minute, maybe a minute and a half or whatever, right?
	I mean, the last time I checked, I could do three pool lengths underwater.
	Still pretty good lung power from my youth swimming days.
	But I'm no match for a dolphin.
	So who can stay distant longer?
	Do you get a sense that it's driving your wife crazy in the way that it's driving you crazy or do you think she's just fine with it or what's your sense of that?
	Um, she was drinking a lot, um, alone, so I gotta be depressed.
	Um, I think having my daughter with her helps.
	And so she's kind of got a little buddy to kind of at least be around.
	Well, you had that with your daughter when your wife had postpartum.
	Yeah, yeah.
	So for the first four years, five, maybe even six, it was pretty much me and then seven, it kind of.
	started flipping and then eight and nine has been hers.
	Right.
	Right.
	Thank you.
	Yeah, I mean, and it's a lot of burden for your daughter to be used to sort of substitute relationship bandages by her parents.
	Yeah.
	And you can see her trying to patch things up or make things better or not be a burden.
	Sorry, what do you mean?
	My daughter, not my wife.
	What do you mean by not being a burden?
	Uh.
	Uh, um, just being happy and trying to get the things to go sometimes, uh, together, like, uh, I don't know, she will want to hug us both, uh, not recently, but at one point after, uh, yeah, I mean, she's basically, I'd really like you and mommy to get along better so I'm not trapped in mommy's bed till I'm twenty.
	Exactly, yeah, yeah.
	And I assume she wants me around at least a little.
	Thank you.
	Um, you know, I mean, obviously it's the most loving thing you can do for your daughter is to get along well with your wife.
	Yeah, yeah, that would, um, yeah, I would.
	I, I I think that would be the best gift I could ever give her.
	Tell me what you think, a little more.
	Um, I mean, without it, she's gonna have, uh, no idea how to do it when she gets old.
	She's gonna repeat this and, uh.
	Yeah, when when she gets she'll be fifty and have a kid and going through her second divorce.
	It's just, um, she needs to be shown a better way.
	Do you think that your wife understands how her distance in her marriage with you is negative for your daughter?
	She has to, but I don't think she's ever communicated or shown it or.
	or express it in any way, but you'd be blind not to know it.
	Well, I mean, does she have an inner dialogue?
	Does she have higher standards she compares her actions to?
	Does she have, I mean, is she religious?
	Does she have a philosophy or a morality that she subjugates her will to?
	Or is she more reactive and acting out kind of thing?
	More reactive.
	It's not religious.
	Her dad was orthodox and her mom was Muslim.
	So there was..
	no religion in the house.
	Okay.
	So yeah, there's no, no guiding principle that I can see is, you know, just I mean, I don't think she's a bad person.
	I think she's a, she's a good person, but I don't see like a morally guiding thing that, that points her in her direction.
	Has she taken the lead in terms of trying to fix things in the marriage, much, if at all?
	No.
	Does she read reflective books or self-knowledge or psychology or literature that provokes introspection or does she have any of the sort of signs and symptoms of that mindset?
	No, not at all.
	She pretty much watches cooking shows and Russian TV.
	And have you had many conversations over the last 12 years with your wife about?
	self-knowledge and history and childhood and you know I mean if you've been into what I do for sort of five six seven years I'm sure that's a topic that you've thought about quite a bit yeah um Yeah, not really.
	Our relationship was probably going down about the time that I started listening to you and really getting it.
	And there just hasn't been a lot of conversations between us that are transactional in the last year, several years.
	And how did you guys end up going to therapy?
	The first time, I don't know if she I think I told her we were going to have to go.
	I found a therapist.
	So I'm pretty sure I was the one who was pushing for it.
	The second one, I don't know who pushed for it, but I guess she got some discount at work.
	So we went to whoever her work sent us to.
	Yeah, it might not be something you want to scrim on.
	Yes, yes.
	Cheaper than divorce.
	Yes.
	And the first lady I thought was fine, but she didn't, she didn't like her.
	I mean, you guys, I mean, I'm not trying to flog anything here, but you could always set up a private call with me i will uh i'll maybe wait till this one comes out and play it for her and see what she says and then try and uh see if she would be interested yeah i mean um not uh not too bad at this kind of stuff no you definitely give me some insights that i i did not have right Okay.
	Would you like a plan?
	Yes, please.
	Yes.
	All right.
	I'll break a few rules and give you a plan.
	You gotta talk to your parents, man.
	Like 150%.
	Okay.
	You gotta sit down and talk to your parents and say, like, what kind of relationship is this?
	We never talk about anything.
	Why didn't you guys tell me about dating?
	Did you know I was a social alcoholic pretty much and crazy promiscuous and had all these red flags and these women?
	And like, where was your parenting?
	Where was your parenting?
	I don't, bro, you weren't parented.
	You grew up like a savage, Lord of the Flies.
	You were not parented.
	Did you know what I mean?
	It's like, so, I mean, you're a dad, right?
	Parenting has a lot to do with coaching.
	Fair to say?
	Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
	So if I said, hey, man, I had a coach for like 20 years, right?
	I had a live-in coach for 20 years, right?
	And you say, oh, oh, yeah, I had a live-in coach.
	I wanted to be a baseball player.
	So I had a live-in baseball coach for 20 years, right?
	And then let's say I say that, and you say, you don't, you know, you're some space alien.
	You say, oh, oh, oh, okay.
	So you want to be a baseball player.
	You had a live-in baseball coach for...
	Um, just curious, what are the rules of baseball?
	And I say, oh, shit, I don't know.
	Say what?
	You want to be a baseball player, you got to live in baseball coach for 20 years, and you don't know the rules of baseball.
	Okay.
	Is baseball played indoors or outdoors?
	Oh, I don't know.
	It's a good question, though.
	I should probably note that down.
	Maybe I can ask my 20-year baseball coach.
	Okay, does it involve a ball?
	I'm not sure about that.
	I'm fairly sure it doesn't involve horses though.
	I think I would have heard of something like that.
	Okay.
	So you really don't know anything about baseball.
	And live in baseball coach for 20 years.
	You really don't know anything about baseball.
	So is it fair to call that person a coach?
	No, no, no, definitely no coach.
	So you had parents who were your live-in-life coaches for 20 years.
	Thank you.
	You followed dopamine a dick.
	Fair to say?
	Yeah, that's, yeah, I did.
	Definitely do that.
	Right.
	Now, is there a coach alive who says, well, If you want to achieve excellence at something, man, just do whatever feels good.
	Just do whatever feels right.
	Just, you know, do, do, you know, if you don't feel like.
	training, don't train.
	If you don't feel like dieting, don't diet.
	if you don't feel like practicing don't just do what you feel like do what you feel like ain't coaching it's it turns you into a kind of animal yeah but i did i was hiding it from them too um i mean i'm yeah i think i'm self-erasing come on come on man you're 54 years old I could I could listen to this shit if you were 24.
	I'm not listening to you when you're 54 and you've been listening to me for five, six, seven years.
	Okay.
	Yeah, no.
	yeah no is it is it your job is it your job to teach your parents how to coach you yeah no it was it's not my job no right because if you could teach your parents how to coach you none of us would ever need coaches right i mean the whole point I mean,
	if I want to learn Japanese, do I need to teach my Japanese teacher how to teach me Japanese?
	Does that make any sense at all?
	I'm sorry, I'm not.
	I know this sounds harsh.
	You said you wanted me to be blunt.
	I'm not saying you don't make any sense at all, but this argument is deranged.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	No, yes, you're right.
	I shouldn't be the one to initiate that stuff.
	It should have come.
	You can't.
	Look, all children, you have a daughter, right?
	How much do children want to please their parents?
	Well, it's immense, right?
	Now, evolutionarily speakinging, when we think of children who displeased their parents in a time of harshness and scarcity and predation and extreme weather, when we think of children who did not please their parents, how well did those children do from an evolutionary standpoint?
	They got weedy, gal.
	They sure as shit did.
	So I want you to massage this right into your, let's just say the base of your spine.
	Be polite, right?
	Massage this right into the base of your spine.
	The reason why you didn't tell your parents what was going on in your heart and your mind is because you wanted to survive.
	You not only wanted to survive, you are programmed to survive.
	It's like if you don't eat, you lose weight.
	That's not open to your will, right?
	That's not a conscious thing, right?
	I think I'm going to decide to.
	Otherwise, we don't do spot reduction.
	on our abs right so that is an autonomous nervous system process right or i guess not a nervous system it's an autonomous biological function that when your body is short of calories you eat your own ass right yeah so When you were very little,
	probably too little to remember, you scanned, as we all did, as we all do, you scanned the environment.
	in order to figure out that which was most pleasing to your parents, and then you provided it.
	That's what we all do.
	We're all, all of us programmed that way.
	Now, we don't know what our parents will find the most pleasing because our genes don't know what freaking culture we're born into, right?
	So, you, as a little boy, as a toddler, as a baby, you scanned your parents like we all did, and you said, what pleaseth these gods of my survival right Yeah.
	And we all make sacrifice to the gods and sometimes the sacrifice is our own personalities.
	The gods' survival we call parents.
	Does that make sense so far?
	Yes, yes, it does.
	Yes.
	So, as a baby, as a toddler, you scanned your parents and you said, what pleases them?
	and what displeases them because i wish to survive which means I better please them.
	Because you know, right?
	I mean, even if displeasing your parents gives you a 1% less chance of survival, it's going to get weeded out pretty freaking quickly, right?
	It won't take a hundred generations.
	Yeah, yeah.
	When starvation and, you know, your parents are slightly less attentive, you get slightly less food.
	It doesn't take much, right?
	Because, you know, I mean, you don't even have to starve to death, you know, sometimes.
	If you just have 50 fewer calories a day, you can't fight off some infection otherwise, right?
	Yeah, or an animal gets you.
	Yeah, you're just a little bit slow for the animal or whatever right yeah you got it okay sorry i just bumped there let me just pause that for a sec because i want i just bumped my microphone i want to startle people too much let me just make a note of when that is okay and we're okay to go for another few minutes is that right yeah yeah well however long it takes okay so You had to please your parents as we all have to.
	I'm sorry to be so repetitive.
	I really am, but it's really important.
	Now, did your spontaneous, natural, expressive personality please your parents?
	Yeah, I'm guessing not, but I'm so young, I don't necessarily remember any good, bad or indifferent.
	We know the symptoms.
	I mean, we can tell from the symptoms.
	And the symptoms are, you have to perform.
	You can't just be.
	which means that your parents preferred you to perform rather than just be.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Because that's what you do.
	I mean, I don't have to be there to see your parents teaching you English to know that you were taught English as a kid because you have a naturally accented English, right?
	Yes.
	We know that you were taught English as a kid because you speak English as an adult.
	So, your parents...
	I assume that they responded, and there's nothing wrong with doing this, right?
	I mean, we all want our kids to do well, but I assume that they responded to you rolling over, learning how to walk, you know, maybe tickle and giggle.
	And again, there's nothing wrong with those things, but it's not foundational to who you are as a person, as an individual.
	I mean, did you ever have those back of the porch late summer nights, watching the Harvest Moon, ramble chats with parents?
	You're just talking about what's going on in your mind, talking about what you think, associations, memories.
	You ever have those long, languid chats where you're just batting thoughts and feelings back and forth?
	Usually they I don't know if I don't know if we go to the lake, we'd sit out there and there'd be people over and we'd be doing something, whatever it is.
	Yeah, that's not what I'm talking about.
	Yeah, but that was that was what we would do.
	We never really just sat there and and talk we we would do something Right.
	And so the reason I'm telling you, I'd give you orders, but I can't.
	I won't.
	But the reason I'm telling you, go talk to your parents, is you really need to see how your parents react to direct and honest communications.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Okay, yeah.
	I can tell you how they're going to react.
	Do you want to give it a try and do a role play?
	Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Okay, so you can pretend to be your dad.
	Okay.
	And I would say, dad, um, I guess I'd like to chat about a couple of things.
	Um, if you know, if you don't mind.
	Uh, you know, I've really been thinking about my childhood a lot because, you know, my, not getting particularly along well, as you know, with my wife and my daughter.
	and not happy in my marriage.
	And I really don't have any relationships where I just feel truly comfortable just being myself and sharing my sort of thoughts and feelings.
	I always feel like I've got to be providing something or being entertaining or having some useful tidbit or whatever, right?
	And, you know, I can't help but think, you know, I started dating.
	You know, I dated a couple of girls in high school.
	So I started dating when I was like 16 or 17.
	And I did date, you know, I got married in my 40s, right?
	I'm like, I'm going to be a 40, 42.
	So for like a quarter century, I can't, I can't remember years.
	you and mom asking me about my dating life.
	Like even from the very beginning when I really could have used some advice on who to date, because I really didn't make some, I didn't make great choices, dad.
	And I just don't remember you and mom and I ever talking about that stuff.
	Um, I figured you would figure it out.
	Um, yeah, but that's not how, that's not how, okay, dad, let me ask you.
	Um, yeah, what's what's the sport that your dad gave you a lot of coaching on basketball basketball fantastic okay so dad do you think it's more important to be good at recreational basketball or to have a happy marriage?
	Definitely definitely the happy marriage.
	Fantastic.
	Okay.
	So when it came to basketball, did you ever say to me, oh, you'll figure it out?
	No.
	No.
	What did you do?
	I coached you.
	You coached me.
	For years.
	For years.
	So why would you coach me about basketball but not about women and dating?
	What do you think causes more problems in Ben's life?
	Like basketball or women?
	Women definitely cause more problems.
	So why would you coach me on basketball and not on women?
	I'm not a fan.
	I'm not a fan.
	I don't have an answer for that.
	Pretty big question though, isn't it, Dad?
	Yeah, yeah, it's a big, big question.
	But I I don't know why I wouldn't.
	I just figured you would figure it out.
	And Yeah, it seemed like you were doing pretty good.
	You always seemed like you had someone new that you were or you were with.
	Okay, so do you think that's I mean, would you would you think I was really successful if I had a new job every three weeks?
	No, no, definitely not successful.
	Um, but why I don't I don't know.
	Maybe it was an uncomfortable topic.
	I don't know why I didn't.
	Because I would say, as far as, you know, I mean, you've obviously done some good things as a dad, so this is not some blanket condemnation.
	But dad.
	I'm 54 years old.
	I'm in a miserable marriage.
	Do you know I slept with 50 women?
	I'm not proud of that.
	It's terrible.
	It's just using people for flesh.
	And, you know, there were, I mean, it was at least probably 10, maybe more years I really couldn't get together with people without drinking.
	I sort of feel like I was...
	I really feel unparented.
	I was coached with sports, which is like the least important thing.
	I can't even tell you the last time I touched a basketball.
	But I just, I feel like I just, it's kind of like a, I don't know, a cliché, like a boomer thing maybe, but man.
	It's just completely left to my own devices.
	To invent things on my own, to try and figure out everything on my own, to try and figure out how to live, how to love, how to succeed, how to date.
	I mean, my mom or me and your mom, we provided you a good, we paid for your college education.
	We modeled good behavior.
	You just didn't follow the modeling.
	So are you saying that you gave me good advice, I failed to follow it?
	Yeah.
	You chose to go a different path.
	Okay, well, let me ask you this.
	So if I failed to listen to your instruction about basketball, would you just let me go and do my own thing?
	No.
	What would you do?
	Dad, what would you do?
	I would correct you, probably make your own laps.
	That's right, Dad.
	You would give me explicit instructions and if I failed to follow them, you would follow up, right?
	Yes, yes.
	So how dare you have these two completely different standards?
	you never talked to me about dating and somehow I got it wrong.
	As if that's just how it You just give them a reasonably good example and cross your fingers for 20 years.
	That's not how you parent.
	Not how you coach, right?
	No, no.
	I mean, you didn't just throw on like Michael Jordan.
	clips and say that's how you play.
	You coached me.
	But why didn't you coach me about life?
	Why was it all just.
	Sports bullshit.
	And.
	Yeah, I don't know.
	I mean, did it ever cross your mind?
	I'm just curious.
	I mean, you saw me out there flailing around in the dating world year after year, you know, longest relationship was a year.
	Then I got married, that broke up and like, Are there red flags that you're missing?
	Tell me about this new girl.
	I mean, you kept seeing me date these new women, and why wouldn't you say...
	Let's go over that.
	Maybe you've flipped a couple of digits in your abacus of choice.
	Um, I just figured you would have figured it out.
	I don't really have an excuse.
	Um, But Jesus did?
	Have I?
	Were you right?
	Did you ever check in?
	I mean, it's like you left me at the park at the age of ten saying he'll find his way home.
	Twenty years later, I'm still not home and you're like, you'll figure it out.
	Like, don't you notice that I didn't figure it out?
	Like at any point, I've been dating dad, Jesus.
	I've been dating almost 40 years, 40 years.
	Do you think I'm going to figure it out in year 41?
	Like, what is the plan here?
	I don't understand.
	Yeah, there was no plan.
	and Thank you.
	is, yeah, there is no plan.
	"Okay, so then why do you lie to me?" It's really quite upsetting.
	Dad.
	"Why do you lie to me?" and say my theory was that you'll figure it out?
	Like you just lied to me, right?
	Now you're telling me there was no plan.
	Oh, and then you also said that you did give me good example, but I just didn't follow it.
	So this is like one, two, this is the third iteration.
	of this story.
	There's no plan.
	I mean, okay, let me ask you this.
	As a whole, in general, do you think that it's important for parents to talk to their children about dating and red flags especially these days you mean one false accusation can land your ass in jail right one uh one bad pregnancy or one pregnancy with the one wrong woman can give you alimony it's gonna give you child support for 20 years right if you don't pay that your ass gets thrown in jail i mean it's pretty high risk isn't it pretty high stakes i mean you know all of this stuff right yes yes uh
	yeah so Why would you teach me incessantly, coach me, and train me incessantly about the least important thing, which is basketball?
	and give me no training or feedback or advice or even questions.
	Didn't ask me any questions about my dating in the most important thing, which is love, sex, babies, marriage, and romance.
	Yeah, I don't have an answer.
	I don't know.
	I don't have an answer.
	But I appreciate you.
	At least you stopped pretending you have an answer.
	Bye.
	Thank you.
	Well, I feel very unparented.
	I feel excessively coached, for sure, but very unparented.
	You see what I mean, right?
	Yes, I see.
	Yes, yes.
	I mean, I'm not saying you have to give me an answer now, Dad, but I kind of need an answer.
	I really do.
	I don't know if there is one.
	There's an answer.
	I mean, we don't behave randomly.
	if you've behaved in a consistent way for the last 40 years of my life, there's an answer.
	So we can stop there because, of course, I suppose you have to have other conversations with your dad about...
	But what did you think of the conversation?
	It's difficult not to have answers, that's for sure.
	I mean, it's the most obvious thing in the world right yeah yeah it it there should be answers there and i can't think of any outside of the modeling which they did a good job of modeling no they did not do a good job of modeling i'm so sorry i mean the reason and the reason they didn't do a good job of modeling my friend is because modeling
	is also being curious about your children's thoughts, feelings and experiences, which they did not do.
	I mean, I don't know the answer, but my guess is that the answer, the most logical one, which is not to say that it's right, but the most logical answer is just sabotage.
	Abumas are sabotage vampire bombs, right?
	They've screwed up every country they've been in charge of.
	Just sabotage.
	Massive amounts of debt, ridiculous policies all over the place, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	With sort of profound.
	indifference to the fates of their children.
	Or to put it another way, your father wanted you to be good at basketball because that reflected well on him.
	So he can only think about what benefits him.
	And if you're good at basketball and he's the coach, that makes him look good, right?
	But it also bonding.
	There was bonding doing that.
	I mean.
	I mean, I don't know.
	Bonding.
	I mean, I don't even really know what that means.
	Parenting is not about bonding.
	Parenting is about teaching children to be self-sufficient, moral, and virtuous.
	I don't know what bonding means in this context.
	I mean, there are some people who are kidnapped who bond with their kidnappers.
	It's called the Stockholm syndrome.
	I'm not sure what that would have to do with parenting.
	Yeah.
	I find out that's what I'm doing with Vodars, trying to bond versus price parenting.
	Mm-hmm.
	Oh.
	You can see how it happens.
	So if you, I mean, let's take the sports analogy, right?
	So if your kid is going to be involved in a very important basketball game and you don't give the kid any coaching or teach the kid any of the rules of basketball.
	Are you not setting that kid up for failure?
	Yeah, the kid is set up for failure.
	Yes.
	I mean, it's going to be appalling right absolutely humiliating well that's your marriage i mean the moment that you decided to embark upon a multicultural marriage right yes yeah definitely multicultural that is very high stakes 3d
	chess, right?
	I mean, it's not like you married the girl you grew up to next door.
	You both share the same values and history and, right?
	I mean, you went to the other side of the planet bro to a half-muslim russian bride with no training no expertise no coaching i mean you got thrown in the nba blindfolded with one hand tied behind your back no kidding And
	then you wonder why it hasn't succeeded.
	How could it?
	That's like me making random Japanese sounds at some guy in Japan and wondering why he doesn't understand what I'm trying to say.
	I haven't studied Japanese.
	And I'm trying a really challenging language with no knowledge.
	Did you see what I mean?
	Yeah, yeah.
	yeah, yeah, yeah, see.
	And I hope this is there.
	It's like, uh, uh, but yeah, I, yeah, I definitely see it.
	And then you marry a woman who's got some severe challenges from a, you know, postpartum depression, she got anxiety.
	She, um, jealousy issues, right?
	She herself has that.
	I'm sorry?
	The first wife was a jealous one.
	The second one's not.
	Yeah, but your wife also grew up with, you know, cross cultural challenges as well, right?
	Yes, yes, yes.
	Any, any bad thing you say about Russia, she is on point about defending it.
	I mean, there's the Russia thing.
	There's the, I guess, the Christianity thing, there's the Muslim perspective, right?
	So she's a smorgasborg, so to speak, right?
	Yes.
	And that's not a criticism at all.
	That's how she is, right?
	Yes.
	And then she's gone from that environment, which is complicated enough, to America.
	She grew up in America, she's a citizen, and then she's married an American man.
	And it doesn't sound like her parents gave her a lot of advice on that either.
	Not successful advice.
	I don't know if why why did it fail?
	The question is how could it succeed?
	You had no successful track record of relationships in a much more compatible environment.
	Did you, you know what I mean, right?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I definitely could have settled down with with someone who was closer as far as upbringings and it Yeah, it would have been a lot easier.
	You, you, I mean, you, this is the most exhaotic woman, so to speak, you've dated, right?
	My first wife was Thai, so Oh Jesus bro.
	You gotta start on easy mode.
	But she grew up in America, though.
	I mean, she was.
	The only cultural thing was when I would go to her parents' house and I would notice it then.
	I mean, personally, I think that's a bit naive, but I've obviously never been married to a Thai girl, so what do I know, right?
	But I think that it's more than just, oh, oh, you just take someone from Thailand and you have them.
	grow up in America, it's exactly the same as a white girl say.
	It's like, but it's, but she's still Thai, right?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	You're just not going to have the same experiences.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, like the way her, her, her mom and her mom's boyfriend definitely interacted unacceptably to what I would have been able to accept.
	Was the girl you dated for a year at the end of university, was she white?
	Yeah, she was.
	Yeah.
	Remember who I asked, I asked who was the most functional woman you dated?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	She was.
	Now, again, I'm not saying that, you know, all the white women are the most functional, but what I am saying is that there's more cultural compatibility.
	Yeah.
	We were not fighting about stuff that didn't need to be fought about.
	Right.
	You're not like that.
	a canyon to get across right in terms of perspective right now this dunning kruger thing is like if you're not particularly skilled at something you think it's easier than it is right and yeah yeah and so because uh because you're not particularly skilled at,
	I think, honest and direct communication in relationships, through no fault of your own when you were younger, it's just how your parents, the price of survival was you not being honest and direct about your thoughts and feelings.
	Your parents didn't want you to do that.
	Because if your parents had responded warmly and positively to you being direct and honest about your thoughts and feelings, you'd have that habit, right?
	Yeah.
	So they responded negatively to your direct thoughts and feelings.
	And they were constantly dragging you to activities and sports and board games and social events and don't talk and be quiet and all this kind of stuff, right?
	Yeah.
	So you learn pretty quickly that you have to provide value and do things.
	You can't just be yourself and talk.
	And so because you haven't, I think, much connected with people directly and honestly in your life, you...
	I think significantly underestimate the difficulty of cross-cultural marriages, or cross-racial marriages.
	Or both.
	Thank you.
	Yeah, it seems to me that your wife and yourself have no common frame of reference anymore.
	Yeah, well, I mean, we definitely don't want to do things together.
	Yeah, yeah, we don't.
	Well, and I think foundationally, I mean, this is the one lesson that, of course, I mean, both parents need to get across to their children.
	But in your case in particular, father to son, that you cannot base a relationship on lust.
	I'm not saying, obviously, I'm not saying that the mother of your children and your wife, I'm not saying that she doesn't have any particular virtues, but they have not been enough to sustain the relationship.
	And so if you found the relationship on lust, she's pretty, she's sexy, we have good time in bed.
	And again, there's nothing wrong with pretty, there's nothing wrong with sexy, there's certainly nothing wrong with having a great time in bed.
	But you can't maintain a relationship based on lust.
	I mean, you know that, right?
	Yeah, yeah, um, all that stuff fades.
	Um, I definitely know that.
	Well, lust doesn't fade if it's supported by love, respect and virtue.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Yeah.
	Sooner or later, I just figure you get on each other's nerves for some period of time.
	I mean, I've been married 23 years.
	I'm...
	But if you found things on lust.
	then resentment creeps in.
	And because you lived a very hedonistic lifestyle in your 20s and early to 30s, then you kind of fried your intimacy receptors and fueled your lust receptors, so to speak.
	So then when the hot Russian girl comes along, it's kind of hard to resist.
	And again, I'm not saying that all she is is...
	I'm sure there's a lot more to it, but it hasn't been enough, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I mean, sex is like gas.
	It gets refueled through respect.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	At some point, you just sit in your contempt for each other.
	Right.
	So I think the plan, if I were to be in your shoes, I obviously can't tell you what to do, but I think for me, the plan would be I just got to have an honest conversation with my parents.
	and figure out how did I end up in this situation where I just am so distant from everyone.
	It has to come from the beginning.
	It has to come from early on.
	It has to come from you, Matt.
	You mapping what your parents want and don't want, what they like and don't like, what they prefer and reject, mapping that and saying, Jesus, I can't be myself.
	Holy crap.
	They don't want that.
	And so then if you are actually yourself and direct with them, hopefully over the next couple of days or maybe this weekend or whatever, if you are actually direct with them, Now, I imagine that they're going to react with great confusion, dismay, distance, you know.
	Boomers are kind of like toddlers.
	You have to keep reality pretty far away from them, particularly emotional reality, but you don't have to do that anymore.
	So you're going to see how your parents react to direct emotional expression and honesty.
	Thank you.
	And you'll see, I assume, I'm sure, you'll see the recoil.
	And then you'll say, oh, that's why I have these habits.
	That's why I have this approach.
	Because you Does that make sense?
	Yeah, during the role play was uncomfortable.
	I mean, playing my dad, yeah, it was not comfortable giving answers.
	That's for sure.
	Well, and he was, he had absolutely zero integrity.
	Zero, like negative integrity.
	He was corrupt as hell.
	Because he just lied about everything.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	And that means that he would rather win at your expense than genuinely listen.
	Because everything was kind of the simplicit insult.
	Well, you should have figured it out.
	I guess you didn't.
	I guess you're slow.
	Well, we gave you a good modeling and you just you went another way you went another like you know what i mean like that's just crazy i mean all all parents know that lust is like the modern god right lust and dopamine and sex and hedonism is like the modern i mean you have to arm your children against that stuff right yeah yeah definitely um Yeah,
	I'm definitely doing it for my kid.
	Right.
	So, yeah, I think if you have that direct conversation with your parents, you can see how they react, and then you can understand why you didn't develop those habits, because I think that they were punished, I think that they were rejected out of hand, like strongly, strenuously.
	And then I think it'll be easier for you to understand why you've lived with this kind of distance, I think, with a lot of your relationships over the course of your life.
	And why there's this kind of awful familiarity to what's going on in your marriage.
	And with your daughter.
	Yeah, okay, yeah.
	I was...
	I'll do the call with them.
	Coffee better face to face if you can.
	Yeah, I've been trying to go out there ever.
	They they live in another state, so I've been trying to visit them every quarter.
	So, wow.
	Cheaper than a divorce.
	Yeah.
	You've got time for a divorce.
	You've got time to fly to see your parents.
	Okay, yeah.
	Then I'll definitely do that.
	then.
	Okay.
	And of course, I'm certainly happy to help you and your wife if that is helpful too.
	And I guess we'll stop here.
	Will you keep me updated about how things are going?
	Yes, yes.
	I'll definitely I'll definitely let you know.
	And yeah, hopefully they can turn it around.
	I hope so too, man.
	I'm sure I hopefully at least I've tried to give you the best tools I could think of to help you achieve that.
	And of course, I wish the very best for you and your family.
	Thank you.
	I appreciate it, Steph.
	Okay.
	Thanks.
	Take care.

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