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July 2, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:54:07

I Dated a GAMER! CALL IN SHOW

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	I've been trying to reach out to you and I'm finally ready to ask for your help.
	I was born in southeastern Europe in 1995 during the civil war.
	My parents got married and had us.
	My brother and I, we were born in the middle of the worst period in the country.
	My father was called to serve in the military, just like all men at the time.
	I haven't really processed the whole chapter of my life because it was always part of me and I have always considered it normal.
	But now, as a grown woman, I'm facing a series of challenges and I believe all of it has left its mark on me.
	And after the war, we didn't have any money, everything was ruined, and there wasn't a job to be found.
	My dad went to other countries to work as a waiter.
	My mom was stressed and didn't have milk, so I basically drank cow milk as a baby.
	Luckily, there was still a time when we had small field and a few animals, so we could have domestic food.
	Right now, I live in another city, still in the same country, and my parents' brother and sister, they live in the family house back in the city we were born in.
	I have finished bachelor and master's studies in architecture.
	Right now, I am a PhD student.
	I work as a senior teaching assistant at the university.
	I am renting an apartment with my now ex-boyfriend.
	We dated in high school and came together to the faculty, broke up, then we started dating again, broke up after three and a half years.
	We paused for five years.
	And then two years ago, we started dating again.
	But now we have finally decided that our relationship is going nowhere.
	Our values and life choices are completely different.
	I have healthy habits.
	He doesn't.
	He's been smoking since he was 13 years old.
	He likes to play video games, doesn't like to walk, doesn't like sports, and likes to smoke weed every weekend.
	But he wants to have kids and family.
	He's very intelligent, one of the smartest people I know, maybe even the smartest I know.
	But he's also very lazy and his family ruined his ability to do something useful with his life.
	Me, on the other hand, I don't want kids right now and I know that's wrong because I'm 30 years old.
	I want to have that maternal instinct and I want to overcome my fears and everything that makes me think that I'm not ready, capable or right to have kids.
	All my life, I loved school.
	I always wanted to be the best in class, even if I wasn't during elementary, middle, and high school.
	I ended up as the best student in generation on my bachelor and master's studies.
	As a teenage girl, I dreamed of being a strong, independent woman, just like the propaganda wanted us to be.
	That was the only thing that mattered to me.
	I wanted to have money so I would never have to experience all the things I had to face during my childhood.
	I ended up working from 7 a.m. to 9 p.m., working three jobs and losing my mind.
	Since 2021, I have been in therapy and I have changed five different therapists and three different types of therapy.
	Since my partner and I decided to go separate ways, I feel like I'm losing everything, like I'm not able to continue living, like everything I have worked for so hard was for nothing and I cannot find a single purpose.
	I was also part of a yoga cult from 2018 to 2020.
	COVID saved me.
	We had a teacher who told us that we had to transform ourselves, go to fifth dimension, etc.
	During this time, we were forbidden to have sex or any kind of relationship.
	He told us not to have children until we reached this level of consciousness.
	Many of the people who still go there are in their 40s.
	They have no families, but they are all highly educated.
	Many of them work as teaching professors and have a PhD.
	I have written a lot and I yet am not sure I have said anything.
	My life has been a disaster since high school.
	I had no one to share my feelings with and ended up dating older men and being their mistress.
	The only real relationship I ever had was with the partner I'm leaving now and I have been cheating on him.
	That was the main reason of us breaking up before.
	I always thought that he was the one because he was the only one I had real connection with.
	Now I realize that all of that was just a fiction in my head and his head and that all the differences between us are huge.
	I hope this email finds you well and I hope my story is worth your attention.
	I have listened to you and I'm also a little bit afraid of this conversation because you are honest and I may face some things that I don't want to face because they are out of my comfort zone.
	Whatever happens, I'm still happy that I put all this in writing.
	Born in a war but afraid of a chat with me.
	I appreciate that.
	I must loom large.
	Okay, so tell me what do you think about what you wrote and what's your goal in the conversation?
	Well, yeah, I have read this now because when I was writing that, I didn't save it.
	So it was a bit coming back to that moment when I was writing it.
	I was very depressed at the time, at that moment.
	And right now, I'm not living with my ex-boyfriend anymore.
	We went separate ways.
	The main conversation, well, I guess my main problem now is the fact that I don't have that maternal instinct because I've been listening to you for a long time and a lot of your conversations are pretty based on family values and I really think that something is wrong with me because I don't want children.
	I'm afraid of children.
	I'm afraid of that responsibility in my life and I think I want to be a good parent because of all the things that I think about having children.
	But also I'm aware that I haven't found a real partner for having family with and I am surrounded by people who are either getting married or are expecting children.
	So I kind of feel lost and I feel that something is wrong with me because why am I the only one different from all of them?
	Also, I have a lot of problems with the perfectionism.
	And you know, as I mentioned.
	I'm perfectionist.
	Perfectionism.
	Okay, sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, really sick one.
	Like when I was a teenager, I thought that's cool.
	Like, oh, yeah, I am perfectionist, but now I see that's a big problem because, well, everything is like everything is bad because of it, like my life, my habits, my relationships.
	And I have a problem with being self-confident.
	Like, I proved that I am smart, but I don't think so.
	Like, I'm afraid that someone will tell me that I'm not intelligent enough.
	And I guess that's the reason I always chased, so to say, intelligent men.
	And I always didn't see all the wrong sides of their lives.
	I just saw that they are intelligent and I chased him like crazy.
	Well, it's not really perfectionism.
	It's a fear of criticism, which is what you fear from me.
	And this is why you pick under functioning boyfriends or boyfriends who can't criticize you because their own lives are such a mess.
	So it's not really perfectionism.
	It's just a fear of criticism.
	Yeah, that's correct.
	So if you can hide things, like have a boyfriend at home that's kind of a loser, then you don't get criticized by that because people don't know.
	So, okay.
	Exactly.
	Yeah.
	So obviously, I'm incredibly sorry that you were born during a wartime and, you know, over 2 million people displaced, 100,000 people slaughtered.
	You know, this tripartite ethnic warfare was just brutal, of course, as you know infinitely better than I did.
	But so tell me a little bit about your childhood and your parents and all of that.
	Yeah, well, as I already mentioned, they got married during war.
	And I think, and I know, because I talked, especially with my mom, she always tells me that if it wasn't for war, they wouldn't get married.
	So they never got along as long as I remember.
	Sorry, how does the war make them get married?
	Well, you know, it's weird because a lot of people, we are called war children, like all the generations from 1992 to 1996 that we were born at.
	Because, you know, when people are focused on survival, I guess they tend to get married and have children because there's nothing left.
	I mean, it's sick need, but it really happened.
	Like, I am a witness of that.
	So, yeah, they got married because it started being really bad and they didn't know what to do, I guess.
	I don't know.
	Because they had two children in one year and it was really bad.
	Like, the bombs were everywhere.
	They never moved from the place and etc.
	So, yeah, I just been talking to my mom about the first five years of my life because I don't remember it.
	And she told me that she was at home and yeah, because she didn't work.
	So she has spent a lot of time with us.
	But there were some situations that I remember from the stories around me that, for example, she left with my brother to the other city to meet her brother.
	And I was four months old.
	And I remember they're talking about it, like laughing and like, oh, when I left you, you got sick for four days.
	You couldn't be without your mother.
	But like, yeah, I was four months old.
	What do you expect from me?
	So these things happened and they weren't considered as bad things.
	Yeah, you end up calling the cow mother.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, basically.
	And I didn't even know that I wasn't breastfed.
	I just found out about it earlier.
	So my mom told me, oh, yeah, I didn't breastfed you.
	I was afraid because of the war or whatever.
	And also, one thing, when I was born, my mother told me that she went, we lived nearby the hospital.
	That's why this place was, well, safe during war.
	Like it wasn't bombed, but around it, it was bombing.
	So she woke up at like 5 a.m. in the morning and she got by her feet one kilometer at the hospital and she was basically alone.
	She gave birth of me.
	So yeah.
	Anyway, my brother and me, we were always together.
	People thought we were twins because one year is nothing.
	Our grandma was one that took care of us the most.
	Our father was always working, so he basically didn't have any contribution to raising us, I guess, because he was always working and then he would come home.
	He was also alcoholic.
	I didn't know that.
	I knew that he was drunk at times, but now I know that he was definitely an alcoholic.
	When I was five years old, they opened a small real restaurant here.
	It's called like that, but it was basically a bar where some sick people would come and drink.
	When I say sick, I mean all those people affected by war.
	I mean, none of them would ever visit a therapist because, hey, that's not normal in Eastern Europe, even now.
	So, yeah, he started drinking, and I remember those days were really terrible.
	Him and my mother were fighting a lot.
	I don't remember them getting along ever.
	At that time when they opened that restaurant, they both started working.
	So I remember times when our grandmother was taking care of us and we would just stay up late and wait for our parents, I mean, especially our mom, to come home.
	And then she wouldn't come because we'll fall asleep and she would come late and we would go to school.
	She would be at work.
	So I remember that time, like from 5 to 14 even, mom was never home.
	We were, well, we were used to father not being at home, but mom, that was like not normal.
	So yeah, I missed her a lot.
	Our grandmother was really strict.
	She was beating us.
	I mean, that's also one thing that was considered normal here, because if you don't beat your children, they will be spoiled.
	But that was extreme here, and it still is.
	Like when you say, oh, I will not be beating my children, they will be like, Oh, you will, when they scream, you will see, and stuff like that.
	Sorry, what do you mean by beating?
	What does that mean?
	Well, it would be spanking.
	I remember that, not like plurally beating, but we would be yelled at, and she would, you know, get the rod from the tree or something, and she would beat us on our asses.
	Would that be bareskin or through clothing?
	Through clothing, never bearskin.
	Yeah, I don't remember that.
	And how painful were the beatings?
	Well, it was pretty painful because I remember us crying.
	I mean, also because we were afraid, but also because it hurt.
	And I remember that we were really afraid of our grandma.
	Like, it was always some kind of tension with her, even though when we would be playing with her, I mean, she really teached us a lot, like some songs.
	She was very, she wanted to read with us and stuff like that.
	But it was never relaxed with her.
	We were always afraid.
	Yeah, it was always tension.
	My grandfather, mom's father, we lived at the house of my mom's parents.
	So he was also an alcoholic.
	My mom claims that he started drinking after the war.
	But I think he was a construction worker.
	So he also traveled a lot.
	I remember that he worked a lot in Asia when she was a child.
	So she tells me that he wasn't drinking.
	But I remember some stories when she told me that he actually was drinking when he came back home.
	And for three days, he would be free and he would be drinking.
	So yeah, he was also an alcoholic and my father.
	Yeah, it gotten really worse.
	And my grandma and grandpa, they haven't been communicating at all since I know.
	They lived in different parts of the house.
	And I have never seen them talking.
	And I wasn't aware of it.
	You know, when you live in some neighborhood or whatever, and it just seems normal.
	And then after, when some years came by, I just realized that nothing was normal about my parenthood and everything that I experienced.
	So they were basically divorced, but they lived in the same house, just different parts of the house.
	So, and also my grandfather, my father's father, he was also an alcoholic and he was really an alcoholic.
	He couldn't function without alcohol.
	So yeah, it was really a big part of my life.
	I'm trying to think of the number of Eastern European stereotypes that are not being destroyed by this conversation.
	Violent papushkas and drunken fathers and grandfathers.
	Yeah, it was actually normal.
	Like when I started listening to you and you know, the whole part of that not being normal, it was like, well, actually, my life wasn't normal.
	Like it was normal for people when you say today when you talk to someone and you're speaking about construction workers, they would say, oh, well, that's the job.
	Like they're drinking because of their job.
	That's normal.
	Like it's really sick.
	So yeah, I remember at high school, in high school, that was the worst period when my father was drinking.
	And the worst thing was that he was sleeping under my, so we have two levels of the house.
	So his room was just underneath mine.
	And I remember him coming home late, drunk, and he was moaning and he was yelling.
	And I was very afraid.
	And I was just imagining if I will find him alive in the morning.
	So I thought he will heal himself or something like that.
	And I also was writing a journal back then.
	And I remember writing down that I don't want to have father if he's like this.
	And basically I hated him a whole time.
	So we didn't have any kind of relationship, even though we lived in the same house.
	I just didn't want to communicate with him.
	We wouldn't be talking for a few months.
	And then he would suck up to us all, you know, like he would be acting nice and then it would be happening again.
	So now he stopped drinking.
	I don't live with them anymore.
	Now, meaning when?
	Well, I think since I went to college, something like that.
	When they started.
	How long ago was that?
	Yeah, sorry, sorry, sorry, yeah.
	Like 12 years now, I think.
	But it's not like he's sober all the time.
	He had also some moments like once or twice in a year, he would also get gotten drunk or whatever.
	But yeah, for 12 years.
	How did he get along with your brother?
	Him and my brother, or me and my brother.
	You and your brother.
	Sorry, sorry.
	No, sorry.
	Let's do your father and your brother.
	They will do you and your brother.
	Okay.
	So, well, my brother is very, very emotionally disconnected, let's say, or unavailable.
	He and my father, I remember them having a fight maybe 10 or 12 years ago.
	I think after that fight, my father stopped drinking because my brother grew up, well, basically, he's two meters tall.
	And I think he punched him or they had my father.
	Yeah.
	He came home drunk or he humiliated him somewhere or because I remember also times when my father would come in public when we were having my brother and me, we had the same company.
	Like we hanged out together.
	And I remember a few times my father would come.
	He would pee himself or something like that.
	He would not be stabilized.
	He would go around and nag and it was terrible.
	So my pickophyte drunk.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, something like that.
	So my brother was like swallowing all of it.
	Like he didn't express anything.
	and at some point he just exploded, and that happened like 12 years ago when he punched him.
	And I think he stopped drinking after that.
	I think that was a moment.
	And as their relationship, well, it was never very close, I think, because he was absent a lot.
	And we were always closer, close to our mom or closer.
	And I also remember times when my father would come home and he wouldn't enter the house.
	He would sleep in the car.
	And we would like a lock house or something like that.
	We wouldn't let him come in.
	And I also think mom, well, somehow influenced all of it.
	You know, if the father is coming drunk, let's hide or whatever.
	I mean, he wasn't eating us.
	He was either crying when he comes home or he was moaning or he was fighting with her.
	And I remember also begging them to stop fighting, but that never worked.
	So yeah, their relationship wasn't very close.
	They never talked or had a real conversation.
	Even now, my brother is pretty much ignoring him and he's not taking him seriously whatever he tells or communicate with him about.
	And me and my brother, we have, I would say weird relationship, but I guess you would find it very logical.
	We are very close.
	Like we have to hear and talk almost every day, but we never talk about emotions.
	Like our topics are training, cars, or whatever, I don't know, jobs, and what did you do today?
	Like literally, that's all we talk about.
	And I really want to change that.
	And I was planning for a very long time.
	I have never had the courage to just sit and talk to him about some real stuff.
	What's something would happen if you did?
	What's your fear?
	Yeah, my fear, I guess the coldness, because my mother was always emotionally unavailable.
	So she, up until five years ago when I went, or maybe 10 years ago when I went to study, to college, she wouldn't even kiss me or hug me.
	I just don't remember this kind of relationship with my mom.
	And my brother is a lot like that.
	Like they have same way of handling things.
	So I guess I'm afraid that he would break or he would just reject me or he would, I don't know, I'm not sure.
	I guess these are fears.
	Because whenever I approached my mom, she would just put a wall and I would just, everything that I wanted her to feel just reflects on me.
	So I guess that's a fear, like being rejected or not being able to reach him.
	But I definitely have to try.
	Okay.
	So what happened with your dating life in your teens?
	Yeah, that's a very terrible part of my life.
	As I told you, I was a very good student all the time.
	And I always was, when you say a kid to be admired, or everyone would like to have that kid.
	But when I went to high school, as I always told you, my mom and I would never have any kind of conversation about boys or about any kind of intimate things, obviously.
	And I would never talk with her about boys.
	The only thing that was forbidden, that was known or public in our house is that I'm not supposed to have a boyfriend until, I don't know, maybe ever, but at that point, I think I tried telling her about some boy and she would be, oh no, what boy are you talking about?
	You don't have, like, she was literally rejecting the fact that I would even like a boy, even and especially having one.
	So yeah, I was hiding that from her, obviously, and I was hiding that from everyone.
	So when I went to high school, I was pretty tall and I guess attractive in the high school.
	So, well, boys were, especially older boys, were after me.
	And I was a member of folklore dance ensemble.
	So there were a lot of older boys.
	And I remember one, one of my first, well, let's say boyfriends was 11 years older than me.
	So I was 15.
	He would be 26 at times.
	And obviously, I didn't know that boys at that time were only after one thing.
	And I was, I don't know what I was like, but I just find, but no one cared about it.
	I mean, yeah, I remember when we were, the first time when we met, he asked to kiss me.
	And I was like, well, you are 11 years older than me.
	I don't think you are supposed to kiss me.
	Nothing happened.
	I didn't have sex with him or anything, but I was dating him for a while.
	And when I find out that he was talking around that he actually had sex with me, I broke up and I told him that I don't want to see him again.
	And it's very guy who kisses a 15-year-old turns out to be immature.
	Whatever next.
	Yeah, it was terrible, especially for me.
	And I didn't talk to anyone about it.
	You didn't talk to your parents.
	No one, not even a friend, because I felt I would be judged.
	I was fighting.
	What's wrong with being judged?
	did you have that feeling early?
	Like, where did the fear of judgment come from?
	Well, I guess I would connect it with my grandmother the most because even my mother, I mean, she always, yeah, beating and yelling and cursing.
	And I remember me and my brother playing Sega Mega, you know, the game.
	And we were hiding.
	I mean, we were basically all day outside.
	And when it's raining or something and we cannot go outside, we would play that.
	And she would hear that we are playing and she would yell at us, like, what are you doing?
	Stop doing that.
	I mean, we weren't doing anything.
	She was just like, she had a problem with us playing silent game.
	Like, I remember that when you push the button on the joystick, it would click, you know, and she would say, stop clicking, it bothers me.
	Like, just an example of my grandmother.
	So I guess that was it, but not just that.
	It was also the feeling that I will not.
	As a kid, I had problems adjusting to the company or friends.
	I had problems with making friends.
	I was lying a lot, like really a lot.
	And I still do that, like unconsciously.
	And then I just tell myself, what are you doing?
	Like, I was lying about the most basic things.
	For example, I was a good student.
	I was getting A's all the time.
	And sometimes I would just come home and tell my mother that I got an A. So I always wanted attention, I guess.
	I wanted to be praised.
	I wanted to be, I don't know.
	I wanted people to convince me.
	So you're a human child.
	Yeah.
	Well, so I was also lying a lot when my friends were there and I was rejected a lot.
	You know, the kid that no one will choose when some games is on, game is on or whatever, like I would always be rejected.
	So I guess that feeling was very, very scary when I was older.
	And if I tell someone that I'm dating...
	So why would you be rejected?
	I don't know.
	I remember my teacher telling me I was at some kind of race or something.
	And that really hurts me now.
	And I came and I told her I was racing and I was like fifth out of, I don't know, 50 people that were racing.
	And she would tell me, oh, well, you are clumsy.
	How could you go to the race?
	I mean, I remember my teacher was really, really big influence on me, I would say that the first teacher, you know, the one, the five grades that you have one teacher.
	So people actually considered me clumsy.
	So even though I was always doing some kind of sports, especially now, now I don't feel clumsy anymore.
	But back at that time, I felt because everybody would say, I guess I actually was, I don't know.
	I mean, I remember my therapist when I was dealing with something like this before, and he told me that as a child, as a child, when someone tells you that you are clumsy, that's all you know.
	So I guess that I forced myself to believe that or I don't know.
	I'm not sure.
	And I also was lying a lot.
	And maybe at that moment, at that point, I didn't, I thought that no one knows, but everybody knew because later when I revined all of it, all of the events, I remember people telling me, well, yesterday told us this and now you're telling us that.
	Well, decide.
	So yeah, obviously they didn't like me because I was lying.
	Okay, got it.
	Yeah, but also I think it was a lot in my head, not just.
	Well, no, I mean, you weren't picked, right?
	Yeah, I wasn't picked, yeah.
	Okay, got it.
	All right.
	So what happened after the creepy 26-year-old?
	Yeah, after the creepy 26-year-old, it got even worse.
	Yeah, I think I dated one guy that was my age, and we were together for like seven days, and he cheated on me after 10 days.
	And I pretended that I wanted to break up anyway.
	So it then adapted.
	I mean, we kissed or something like that happened.
	I was 15 also.
	And then after that, I started dating a 10 years older guy who had girlfriends.
	So that was a very bad thing.
	And I was it because you couldn't have much in common with the people your own age or what do you think that was about?
	Well, I guess.
	I mean, I liked being with that guy because he was telling me some stories about his life.
	He was very interesting, very popular.
	Everybody liked him.
	So I remember I didn't even like the part when we would kiss or, I don't know, cuddle or whatever.
	I liked talking to him, just like, just talking to him and being like understood.
	And when I go, when I think about it now, I think I missed talking to my parents.
	Like, can it be something like that?
	Like, I wanted to talk with someone who is older who would protect me, who would be there for me.
	Well, the protection is definitely there.
	Yeah, the protection is definitely there.
	Yeah.
	So, yeah, I mean, your kids will gravitate towards whoever gives them affection.
	I mean, we're honestly, we're ducks.
	Like, you know, we've raised dozens of ducks in this household and you get the baby ducks, the ducklings, and they just follow you.
	They just trail after you.
	It's not love.
	They're just like, oh, you're a big thing that moves.
	So I'm going to follow you.
	Because that's protection.
	The only chance of protection they have, right?
	Definitely.
	So, yeah, whoever is going.
	And of course, the problem is that you have a lot of pent-up need for affection.
	This is the case for young women, right?
	You have a lot of pent-up need for affection.
	And then when you reach sexual maturity, you can get attention and affection based upon sexual access.
	And I'm not saying that you were providing sexual access, but even the potential for sexual access.
	So then it becomes kind of a shortcut.
	And this is why women who are distant from their fathers tend to date earlier and date older men because their bodies are their souls in a sense.
	Their flesh is hungry for protection.
	And if you're not getting it from your father, then you have to get it from some other man.
	And then instead of it being father love, it becomes sexualized.
	Yeah, yeah, definitely.
	And I remember situations in my childhood when someone of the children would do something to me and I would come back at home and tell my mom and she would be, oh, these are just children things.
	Like, I don't want to deal with it.
	And some parents would come at my house to like curse at me.
	And my mom would never do that.
	Or my father, especially.
	Sorry, why would the mothers come and curse at you?
	Because I was, I don't know, I did something to this girl.
	I punched her or something like that.
	And then I ran back to home and I was hiding because I was afraid.
	And afterwards, I mean, these girls were very problematic.
	Also, I guess I was also problematic at some point, but no one liked these girls in the neighborhood.
	And they were always causing problems and lying a lot.
	So I guess they also, we had something in common.
	So I remember them threatening me or something.
	And I would come home and tell my mom about it.
	And she would be like, oh, I don't want to get in the middle of it.
	You are children.
	You go and deal with it by yourself.
	So I would never have any kind of, I don't know, attention when it comes to my friends.
	Like it would always be, it would always be like, there are kids.
	I'm an adult.
	I have nothing to do with it.
	And other adults would come and deal with their problems, but my mom would never do that.
	Maybe I also did those things to get her to do something like that, but she would never do that.
	So I don't know.
	Okay.
	So then just if you can get me sort of mid to late teens dating.
	I'm sorry.
	Can you repeat?
	Yeah, just sort of mid to late teens what was happening with your dating life.
	Yeah.
	So, well, basically, when I finished the relationship with the 10 years older guy, I also didn't have sex with him, but it was close, pretty close to it.
	We were grumping or whatever.
	But I never felt the fact that you told earlier, I didn't feel any kind of hormones or horniness or whatever.
	I just didn't feel any of it.
	I just wanted to be with these people, like just be and talk.
	Like literally, I remembered that I was almost asexual.
	I didn't feel anything when we would touch or kiss.
	So after that, I...
	Like when you think your gum gets put to sleep at the dentist, just nothing?
	Just nothing.
	I mean, I felt safe and good when we would be together.
	It would feel good, but not excitement, not disgusting, disgustingness, nothing, nothing, just like comfort.
	And I thought I was in love, for example, with that guy that was 10 years older than me, because I thought about him a lot, but I would never think about him sexually.
	I would never imagine us kissing or whatever.
	So yeah.
	After that, I had a best friend who was like in love with me and he would always tell me that, always tell me that, but I didn't like him.
	And of course, like it always happens with, I mean, not always happens, but I know a lot of examples of that.
	He got a girlfriend and she told him that he couldn't be friends with me anymore.
	And of course, at that point, I started falling in love with him.
	I was 17.
	I'm sorry, how old was he?
	I was 17 and he was 18.
	That was the first one that was near my age.
	Okay.
	So yeah, I started chasing him and we were again, I was again a mistress.
	So yeah, he was cheating on her while he was with me.
	And I asked him to leave her and he would tell me like, no, I would not like to leave her because if I leave her, you would also leave me, something like that.
	So we were, yeah, we were seeing each other for a while.
	And at that point, I lost my virginity because I kind of thought that if I sleep with him, I guess he would leave her, but he didn't leave her.
	Also, I didn't like that moment.
	I didn't enjoy it.
	And one important thing that maybe I can mention now, I remember one of my first interview podcasts that I've listened of yours was a guy that was raped by his cousin or something like that.
	So at that point, I remembered that something similar happened to me.
	Oh, gosh.
	Yeah, I mean, it wasn't really raping, but I had a first cousin.
	Like, my father had a sister and his sister had a daughter.
	She was like maybe six months older than me.
	And I remembered that she kind of touched me.
	And I remember once at my own home, she would close, she closed the door, even locked it.
	It was dark.
	I think I was four or five.
	I remembered that vividly.
	She jumped on me.
	She hold my hands.
	She was stronger than me, even though I was taller and older.
	But she was stronger.
	And I wasn't older.
	I was younger, but she was stronger and I was taller.
	Whatever, she would jump on me.
	She would hold my hands.
	And I remember telling her, let's get out of the room.
	And she would tell me, be quiet, be quiet.
	And she would perform when I rewind it.
	Now she would perform like sexual action.
	We were dressed.
	She would, I think at that time, we were dressed.
	Do you mean like dry humping?
	Is that what it's called?
	Yeah, something like that.
	Yeah, something like that.
	I mean, we were really, really small.
	I mean, young.
	When I told this to my friend, she's psychotherapist.
	She was like, well, I don't understand how she did it.
	Why would she do that?
	And I remember listening to your podcast and you said something like that: that she experienced it.
	Someone did it to her because she was obviously really young.
	Sorry, how old was she?
	We were five, I guess.
	Okay.
	Before we started school.
	I also remember her telling me we were in the hallway and the bathroom was nearby.
	My father, I think he went, or someone, some guy went into bathroom and she would force me, oh, come on, let's peek through the keyhole.
	Let's see his thingy.
	And I was like, what are you talking about?
	I was really, really disgusted by that.
	And I was afraid.
	And I also remember later on, maybe we were six, we were at her home, at her house.
	My mom and her mom were outside.
	And I was playing with some toy and it was interesting to me.
	And she would tell me, ah, let's do something else.
	She removed my clothes.
	I think I was left in the under shirt or something like that.
	And I remember just laying down, watching at some wall or something, and just wanting it to stop.
	And she would also perform the same thing that she did when we were younger.
	And her mom entered and she saw it and she kicked her and me out of the house.
	And my mom, she didn't tell anything to my mom.
	And we just went home.
	I literally forgot all about it just until six years ago.
	And I remember later on, when we were like 10, I also liked it.
	She also did it.
	And I started liking it.
	It's horrible.
	And I remember trying to do that with another friend or cousin later on.
	Anyway, I am still really disgusted by anything that has anything to do with sex.
	And I guess that's obviously the reason.
	I always felt because of the I wouldn't exactly call it sex play, but because of the halfway between sexual reenactment and playing doctor that you had with this girl when she was five and you were a similar age, right?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Okay, and I apologize for my denseness, but sexual reenactments or play or something like that, it's not unknown among children.
	I'm not saying it's the healthiest thing in the known universe, but it's not unknown.
	And I'm trying to figure out, and again, forgive me for my lack of understanding, I'm trying to sort of figure out what it was that made sex horrible in this way.
	I don't know.
	I also think that it was something that would never be a topic in my home.
	Like it was forbidden to talk about it.
	I remember once my brother would bring up something like that, and my mom would curse at him and tell him, what are you talking about?
	Shut up, blah, blah, blah.
	So I don't know.
	Maybe I just invented it now.
	But I always felt dirty when I do it.
	I remember when I was thinking about sex when I was a teenager, it was like, okay, if I sleep with more than one guy, I would be a whore.
	Like, it was the effect for me.
	So it was always, I never, so I was with this boyfriend, we were living together, and I would never be able to relax or anything like that.
	It was always like, okay, I'm doing something that I'm not supposed to do.
	I also remember my mom telling me when I was in high school, she was like dreaming about me being pregnant.
	And she would come in the morning and curse at me and yell at me.
	And I wasn't sure what she's talking about.
	And she told me, oh, I was dreaming about you being pregnant.
	I wanted to kill you.
	And at that time, I had a boyfriend, the same one that I was with now.
	And she was like literally giving me lectures about something that I even didn't even do.
	Like she was doing it about.
	I still don't quite get, where did you first start to get the feeling that sex was gross or disgusting?
	Yeah, well, I guess, I mean, the only logical answer for that would be that it was because of these older men wanting to do that with me and I didn't want it.
	I mean, without being aware of that.
	No, no, Dr. Fairfax, sorry.
	And again, I'm just trying to, they're not wanting to do it comes first.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	And none of this is a criticism.
	I'm just really curious where this might have come from.
	I don't know.
	Maybe also because my first experience with it was with the man that wasn't actually my boyfriend or the disgust was before that, right?
	Yeah, it was.
	So where does the disgust come from?
	I mean, you know, some girl miming some sex when you're five.
	Distasteful, maybe, but it's not to me.
	And again, I'm not a woman, so maybe it's different, but I don't quite get how this is like sex is disgusting from there.
	Yeah, I also, the only thing that now pops up on my mind was when we were children, I remember that me and my brother, we were batting together.
	I mean, we were small, but I think it also went on when we were a bit older, like maybe six or five, six-ish, something like that.
	And I remember we were playing around and the kids would start the topic about testicles or something like that.
	As kids, yeah.
	Next is fart jokes, right?
	But you don't find farts to be disgusting, right?
	Yeah, exactly.
	You're completely right.
	And I think I managed to talk about it, is it like this?
	And then one friend Would tell me, oh, how do you know it?
	You saw your brothers.
	Yeah, you saw it.
	They're just teasing.
	Yeah, they're just teasing.
	Yeah, teasing.
	But I felt horrible at that moment.
	At that point, I don't want to waste too much of your time.
	Would you like the answer?
	Yeah, I would.
	Okay, it's your mother being feeling disgusted at your father.
	Yeah, you're so right.
	Come on.
	He's coming home.
	He's drunk.
	And like all drunk men, he has few inhibitions and he might be horny.
	And he's pawing at her with his stinky breath and his unwashed armpits.
	And I assume it's something like that.
	And your mother.
	You're definitely wrong.
	And your mother found him repulsive.
	And sex with him was horrible.
	Yeah.
	And you also had a grandmother and a grandfather who did not even talk to each other.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	So, so correct.
	I mean, I've never seen them kiss or anything, even though they had another child, my sister.
	Oh, your parents.
	Yes, I have eight years younger sister.
	So, yeah.
	So I assume that they just found your mother in particular found sex disgusting.
	Yeah, definitely.
	And she still is.
	I mean, definitely.
	You're so right.
	Okay.
	And also, sex would be disgusting because it would have trapped her with him, I assume, to some degree, because of the children.
	Yeah, of course.
	Okay.
	Yeah, I just wanted to see if we were on the same page as far as all that goes.
	No, that's definitely true.
	And this is, and so the revulsion that, I mean, is it equivalent to each other?
	Do they both dislike each other?
	Does your father try to be affectionate and your mother refuses?
	Or how does that go between them?
	Is it equal?
	Yeah, no, I think it isn't.
	Now, maybe it is because now they just reach the point where they cannot communicate at all.
	But yes, I remember him trying to kiss her or to hug her and she would be, ah, don't touch me, don't touch me, blah, blah, blah.
	And I mean, she would be like that.
	Your mother found your, I'm sorry, don't be to laugh.
	So your mother found your father's even kiss or embrace repulsive, but you don't know where you might have found sex repulsive.
	Okay, I'm going to need to see, and you're going to have to email me this PhD.
	No, I'm just kidding.
	I'm just kidding.
	It's easy from the outside, right?
	It's easy from the inside.
	Yeah.
	So did you have any positive communication about sexuality?
	And this, of course, could be implicit, people enjoying teasing with each other or, I don't know, a pat on the rump in passing.
	I don't know, whatever it is, right?
	But did you have any positive experience of romance or sexuality or attraction when you were a kid?
	Well, when I was a kid, I don't remember that.
	No, I started feeling nice about that, all of that, with the partner that I just been with.
	He was my first real relationship.
	Sorry, the video guy?
	Video game guy.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	We started dating when we were like 19.
	And that was my first positive experience with all of that.
	Like, I really was in love with him and we had nice time together at those.
	Oh, so like sex was good.
	Yeah.
	Oh, this is what they're talking about.
	Okay, right, right.
	Now I get it.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Now, I also remember I was reading your book, Real-Time Relationship, and I remember reaching the part where you told, when you were writing about a woman using sex for manipulation.
	And that's exactly what I did do in some point of our relationship when I cheated on him with the same guy, with the guy that I was telling you about earlier.
	Okay, hang on, hang on.
	We're flipping all over time here.
	So just yeah, hang on with that.
	Hang on with that.
	Okay, okay.
	Okay, so can we give a name for the guy you just broke up with?
	Just make up a name.
	Bob.
	Bob.
	I was going to go with Bob, but it seemed a bit Western European.
	So I didn't want it.
	I wanted to be culturally sensitive as I always try to be.
	It's okay.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So Bob.
	So you met Bob in high school, is that right?
	Oh, yeah.
	I mean, we met in elementary school.
	We liked each other back then, but we were kids.
	But we actually met, like, really met in high school, and we started dating in high school.
	We were just finishing high school.
	Okay.
	And he's your age, right?
	Yeah, we're the same age.
	I'm like 10 years older, 10 days older.
	10 days.
	Okay, 10 years, 10 days.
	A bit of a change.
	Got it.
	Got it.
	All right.
	So did you have other boyfriends in the time that you were not with Bob?
	No, I mean, I had some kind of affair, short affairs, I would say, but I didn't have a boyfriend.
	I didn't have any real relationship beside him, like that I would be with someone who wants to be with me and that we are planning future, like no one.
	Okay, got it.
	Okay, so your body count is very low, right, I guess, as a whole?
	You mean sexual partners?
	Yeah, well, I think it's high for me.
	It's like six, I think.
	Okay.
	So it's not really low.
	But the only positive experience was with this Bob guy.
	Everything else was just not nice.
	Okay, so only Bob has the magic touch.
	I mean, I was only emotionally touched to him.
	Everything else was, okay, I'm supposed to do that.
	Like, you know, to some music.
	I don't know what you're talking about at all.
	Sorry.
	Yeah.
	Well, the other affairs that I had were like a, well, I, as always, as I already told you, I wanted to be noticed.
	I wanted to be praised.
	I wanted to be attractive, whatever.
	And I just wanted to feel that someone wants me.
	So the sex was the way to, I don't know, make someone happy with me or make someone think that I'm whatever hot or beautiful, worthwhile.
	Yeah.
	So I always like, I always dreamed of guys admiring my mind, but I used sex for doing that.
	Like the worst thing that you can do.
	Well, I mean, I wouldn't necessarily rush to judgment here, but it's something that occurred.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	So what is it that you wanted guys to admire about your mind?
	Well, I wanted them to think that I'm like, you know, the smart, independent, that I am strong, that I can solve issues on my own, that I can, you know, whatever.
	Guys by not needing them.
	Well, yeah.
	I guess that's correct.
	Yeah.
	And that's so you've got a lot of feminist stuff, is that right?
	Well, yes, I am fighting it, but definitely, like, I was a teenager who is very, very against boys.
	And I was always thinking that it's unfair that girls have to be pregnant and like destroy their body and they don't have to do anything.
	It was very, very close-minded thinking.
	Sorry, I don't quite understand.
	So you feel that men have it easy, right?
	Easy.
	I felt.
	Okay, you're literally born in a war.
	Who the fuck got drafted?
	Yeah.
	No, seriously, you're born in a war.
	Who gets to have babies and who has to go shoot people and get shot at?
	Yeah.
	You're so right.
	It's amazing how we could ignore things right now.
	You were born because of war, where your father got drafted and your mother didn't.
	But it's like, men have it easy.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Terrible, terrible.
	No, no, it's not, it's not terrible.
	I sympathize.
	I really do.
	Like, just how much we can avoid the basic facts right in front of our faces.
	Like, it's, yeah.
	I mean, it's also, it makes sense because I was, as I always told you, very close.
	I was spending the most time with my mom and she was always criticizing my father.
	So, well, everything that he has done was wrong and everything that she was doing was good.
	So, well, why does she have to clean?
	Why she have to do that, that, that?
	And he just go and get something.
	He meant to go be a waiter so the family would survive, right?
	Yeah.
	So he couldn't even see his children.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Terrible.
	Yeah.
	Well, no, no.
	I mean, I'm just like, how is your mother?
	You're so right.
	You're so right.
	How is your mother doing this?
	Now, I mean, look, I'm not saying I'm a huge fan of what your father did as a father or as a husband or anything like that, right?
	Yeah.
	But I'm still trying to sort of figure this out.
	I mean.
	Did she think, how did she communicate that this was all men?
	Well, because she could have just said, I married a bad guy.
	Don't do that.
	Look for a good one.
	Well, yeah, you are right.
	I mean, she obviously, yeah, like all mothers do when we grow up, they change.
	I mean, they change.
	People don't change.
	They are the same, but yeah, they maybe hid something.
	Now she is not telling me that.
	She is encouraging me to find someone, to be happy, to have children and everything like, I mean, everything else.
	But yeah, at that time, maybe she didn't actually tell me that, but she acted like that.
	How did she act like that?
	How did she act like this is all men?
	Well, she would, you know, complain about things that she has to do.
	And when they are very untidy, or would you say in English like that, she would have to clean after her father, she would have to clean after my father.
	She would have to feed them.
	the obvious things that women do like Jennifer Aniston and the movie, the breakup, so that part.
	But also, you know, I think she was always, I mean, not these exact words, but I remember some song she was always loving.
	The song is like about a girl who is not meant to be with anyone or something like that.
	She always wanted to emphasize how she lived.
	She was very free when she was young.
	She worked a lot at the seaside, at the mountains.
	She had a lot of friends and she was okay with living alone.
	And then the war came and she got married and blah, blah, blah.
	And I would ask her, well, mom, if you didn't marry our father, then you wouldn't have us.
	And she would say, well, I would have you with someone else.
	And I would say, well, you wouldn't really have us.
	Like, you wouldn't.
	So, yeah.
	I'm not sure I've answered your question, but she did emphasize the fact that a strong woman, that she is a strong woman, she would never cry.
	Like, maybe once I saw her crying, and it was when I was talking about her and all the things that she did to me, especially with the emotional side.
	I sat with her once for four hours and I told her about my sex life and everything that I've been through, and she was crying that then.
	And that's the only, I think, time I saw her crying or sympathizing with me or anything like that.
	So, yeah.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So did your mother ever did your mother ever say that she made a bad choice?
	Yes.
	Yes, she did.
	She also told me that she could do better.
	And when I asked her, why didn't you divorce him?
	Why did you stay with him?
	Are you aware that no one did this to you?
	You did it to yourself?
	And she would be like, well, yeah, but she would always come and cry and beg.
	And I would feel sorry for him.
	And then I would just leave him in my life.
	Because when they first got married, they went to his house.
	And he grew up very poor because obviously his father was an alcoholic.
	So he would spend all the earnings on alcohol.
	And they were starving.
	He started working when he was 13 or something like that.
	That's the first time he held the waiter pain or whatever it's called in his hands.
	And when she came there, she was disgusted by the conditions there.
	And she came back home and she came after her.
	So they basically lived in my mother's house, my mother's, my grandmother and grandfather's house.
	So yeah, she would always find the excuse that she was sorry for him.
	Okay.
	She was sorry for him.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	I mean, I'm not buying it, but.
	Okay.
	And so you were together with Bob?
	And you then were not together with Bob for a while, right?
	Yeah, for like five years, I think.
	Okay.
	And what happened over this five-year period?
	I was a part of the yoga cult, as I mentioned in the letter.
	I've heard a little bit about this, and I've heard a thousand stretchy and bendy jokes going through my brain, which I'm going to try and avoid as a whole.
	So don't give me sort of any particularly identifying details, of course, but tell me a little bit about the yoga cult.
	Yeah, well, when I finished my college, I was a bit depressed because my life was always about tasks that I do.
	And I always have a solution at the end.
	Like literally, when I would explain my life, it was like that.
	Like, I loved school.
	I loved that I have the answers at the back of the book.
	So if I do something wrong, I can always check.
	So when I finished college, I haven't any goal left.
	Like, I didn't know what I do.
	What am I going to do?
	And I met this professor at the university.
	He was my mentor during the engineering thesis that I was doing.
	And he told me, he started telling me about this energy.
	I was asking myself if the purpose of life was to be born, to eat, to, I don't know, work, study, whatever, and then to die.
	And I was really lost.
	And my depression, the first time I felt depressed was back then.
	And he started telling me about this energy, the things that can go better, blah, blah, blah, that he goes at this yoga sessions and karate.
	It was yoga and karate.
	And it was every day of the week.
	Only Saturday was free.
	So every evening we would spend four hours there.
	It was like the big waste of the time.
	And now when I think about it, when I'm so time fooled and when I think that I was losing four hours of my life on that, I, well, anyway, he dragged me into it.
	I loved it at the beginning.
	So it was like, oh, well, someone is telling me that there is more of life.
	Those people were all like smart PhD guys.
	I was just finished.
	I was just a bachelor.
	And I was, as you could assume, I was always admiring people by their level of education, which is now very not that smart to think about people like that.
	So yeah, I went to the yoga cult and the teacher was telling us that we are going to reach some kind of fifth dimension.
	But also something weird was happening there.
	I didn't experience any of it, but I've heard and I saw some weird things that he was talking about kundalini yoga or something like that.
	And he would say, okay, you can have an orgasm without physical touch.
	And then some girls would be moaning there or whatever.
	They would experience that kind of something.
	I always thought that they were pretending, but they claimed that they weren't.
	Anyway, he was always telling us that nothing that we do in the materialistic world matters, that we are all stupid, that we all have to reach that kind of transcendental level of consciousness, blah, blah, blah.
	No one there who came like with young had children.
	Just few people who came there older, they already had families when they entered, so they had children.
	But a lot of people are like in their 40s and they don't even think about families.
	And I kind of felt like someone understood me at that point, you know, because I was a girl that wanted to be independent, live alone in the big city, have her own apartment and stuff like that.
	And then I came in the yoga cult where someone told me, oh, it's okay.
	You don't have to have children because you have to reach that level of something, but obviously no one will reach it.
	So you will all just be there not having kids.
	So, yeah, it was very hard because I worked my ass off to get there to study that, all of that that I was studying.
	And now someone is telling me that nothing is worth.
	And he always told us that we shouldn't be communicating with anyone else about it, that we shouldn't have friends outside of it because they wouldn't understand us, that they would break us.
	They will.
	Sorry, how old were you when you got into this?
	24, I think.
	24, yeah.
	And I was there for like two years or something like that.
	And then COVID came and I came back home because, you know, everything stopped.
	And I was home.
	And I just, I realized how afraid I was of that man because we were obliged to text him when we go to sleep, when we travel, everything.
	Like, if we don't do that, something will happen to us.
	I don't have to tell you that Eastern Europeans are very superstitious.
	Is it?
	Yeah, superstitious.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	My mom would always tell me, don't do that.
	And I would ask her why.
	And she would tell, that's not good to do.
	So yeah, we were very superstitious.
	And we weren't very religious.
	I mean, we were and weren't, I mean, we are Christians.
	And we celebrate Christmas, Eastern, and stuff like that.
	But we were never really religious.
	We didn't go to church or whatever.
	And communism was here at the time.
	My parents were young.
	So the, you know, religion wasn't supposed to emphasize, to be emphasized.
	So yeah.
	And because of the superstitious things, I came to that cult and I was really, really afraid of that guy.
	I thought something will happen to me.
	And I started being anxious.
	And I still am, but not that much.
	Afraid of what?
	And I'm not disagreeing with you.
	I just, what were you afraid of?
	I was afraid that he will, Like, when I first got my job, he told me that I got the job because of him.
	Because when I, I mean, this all, when I was telling this to my ex-boyfriend, he was asking me why I was that stupid.
	Like, how can someone manipulate with you like that?
	Like, I never found you being so stupid or whatever.
	And I was also wondering that.
	And now I guess I sound really funny when I'm telling this, but I was afraid that I will die or I would die in a car crash or whatever because.
	Oh, this guy would like put a curse on you.
	Well, no, no, I don't mean to make fun.
	Like, that was the thinking that you had.
	Yeah, that's my thinking.
	And I was all the time I was thinking about him.
	I was afraid to quit.
	People that I was getting along with, who were also there, they would always tell me that if I leave, I will be depressed.
	I would never find a purpose in my life.
	Everyone that left there are in a horrible condition.
	Some of them got sick, blah, blah, blah.
	I mean, yes, even though I had diploma, I was very, very manipulated by him.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Got it.
	So I didn't have any kind of relationship at that period because I was forbidden and whatever.
	I liked one guy here at the yoga cult, but we weren't supposed to have any kind of physical involvement or whatever.
	So it was good to fell in love with someone there because then we are safe.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Okay.
	And how long were you in this group?
	Two and a half years, I think, something like that.
	Okay.
	Now, what was there about this that you found compelling?
	So I'm sorry, I know that's a very, very open question.
	You were about to say something because I have a sort of thought about it.
	It's okay.
	I actually, I guessed you would ask that because I was also asking myself why I found comfort there.
	I guess I found a group of people that are accepting me because, well, obviously they wanted to have more members they wanted, but I was accepted there.
	I was valued for whatever reason.
	And I kind of wanted life to have more purpose.
	And he provided it in some kind of way.
	You know, he was talking about things that are magical.
	But at the same time, when I think about it, it's like the easiest thing to do, to follow what someone says.
	And I don't have to find my own truth and my own purpose in life.
	You know, like I was used to have, as I told you, to study and have teachers and have answers and have tests.
	And I was lost without it.
	And then, of course, I came to someone and I can just follow and listen what he says.
	I don't have to make my own rules.
	I don't have to make my own choices.
	I think that was the main reason I was there.
	It was easier to live life when someone tells you what to do.
	Right.
	Well, and you didn't feel that accepted if you were frightened of disapproval.
	Yeah, that's correct.
	That's correct.
	I mean, I was acting nice.
	I wanted to be a good girl again, like I was supposed to be when I was younger.
	That good student.
	I was losing actually my character there.
	I started being very closed, very shy, very introvert.
	I wanted to appear like I'm innocent, like, you know, the horrible thing there was if you had, I mean, the versions were very much appreciated there.
	So everyone else who had ever had sex in their life, they were dirty Also, one thing that would well encourage my feeling that I already had.
	So I wanted to appear as clean as I could.
	It was like a perjury, or is it the world?
	Like, I would, if I go there, I would be clean again.
	I would be, I wouldn't be dirty and I wouldn't be mean.
	All the bad things that I've done are going to be are going to disappear, whatever.
	Yeah, but you are right about being afraid of judgment and everything else.
	And a lot of times these kinds of groups give you an excuse for stagnation, right?
	So we can't really, you can say, this is what's frustrating.
	Yeah, I know you're smart, so I'll just keep it real brief.
	So this is what's frustrating you about Bob, that he's not progressing in life, right?
	Yes.
	And so I think one of the things that these guys do is they say, hey, man, you don't have to get married.
	You don't have to have kids.
	You don't have to do this.
	And so what they do is they bypass your natural anxiety about stagnation by saying, you're growing in some undefined manner, really.
	Like you're growing spiritually.
	You don't need to actually get married and have children.
	And so you get this kind of bullshit growth.
	It's like a video game.
	You get pretend achievements rather than real achievements.
	You level up in Dungeons and Dragons rather than becoming more powerful in the real world.
	Exactly, exactly.
	Like you just described it phenomenally.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So how did you get out?
	Well, COVID happened.
	So everybody, everything stopped.
	We weren't supposed to, we had this, how you call it, hour, police hour, lockdown, whatever.
	And we weren't supposed to go out.
	And as I already told you, I didn't have a house here.
	I was in the dormitory.
	So I had an excuse to go home.
	And I was, it lasted for three or four months, if I recall well.
	So I was home and then I just decided that I want, that I feel good, that nothing was happening to me, that I just, it was like coming back to reality.
	Like I was in this bubble and I exited it and I could see all of it that I've seen now.
	I actually went there for a few times again, but then I just told that teacher that I'm doing my master thesis and I cannot come and I never came back again.
	So I had an excuse.
	I wasn't honest.
	I didn't tell them that it sucks and they are manipulative and they don't do not what they do.
	I just find an excuse and I never got back there again.
	Okay, got it.
	And then when did you get back together?
	We were actually started dating after COVID.
	Actually, I reached out to him during COVID or something like that.
	I mean, we were always in contact during these years.
	Obviously, the time when we broke up, I left him for a guy that I met on some kind of internship program in Tunisia.
	But our relationship was bad.
	He left for US to do some work and travel program.
	I went to an internship and we grew apart.
	But yeah, I was also doing one, again, one very bad thing to him.
	I left him for another guy.
	So he hated me, obviously, and he didn't want to talk to me.
	He told me that I'm the worst person that I will.
	So you got back together with him.
	How did that come about?
	Sorry.
	You're talking now about this time.
	Yeah, yeah, the time that you should have joined him.
	Okay.
	So, well, I reached out to him.
	He told me that he's dating someone, that I shouldn't be contacting him.
	So I didn't contact him.
	And later he contacted me again, like in a year.
	And we started seeing each other for a while.
	But he didn't like the things that I've done again with boys.
	I told him about some affairs that I had.
	So he told me that we cannot be together.
	So we stopped seeing each other.
	That was 2021.
	And again, in 2022, we met again.
	He had a girlfriend at that time.
	And we started seeing each other.
	And he broke up with her.
	And he told me that he will come here.
	He lived in the other city.
	So we didn't live in the same city for these five years that we weren't together.
	And he came back here and he started living with me.
	Like literally when we made up, we started living together.
	So it was two and a half years ago, 2002, the end of 2002.
	And we started living together.
	We tried talking and realizing what our mistakes before were.
	Obviously, we were also young, but besides, we wanted to start again.
	And we tried, but it sucked from the beginning, to be honest, because we weren't honest, I guess.
	He promised me that he would quit smoking.
	I found him a job because I was working three jobs at the time.
	I mean, two jobs and one side job from home.
	And I found him a job.
	He's working there now also.
	He started working because I already told you he was smart.
	So he picked up everything really fast, faster than everyone else there.
	So after that, I also lent him some money to buy a car, to buy a computer, because I was obviously working a lot.
	I was also saving a lot.
	And I gave him that money.
	he wanted to have a credit in bank, but then he asked me if I would be his bank.
	Anyway, the deal was him to repay me every month.
	I guess also there was a big part of relationship that didn't function.
	I mean, I was a girl who is supposed to have babies and be at home, and he was supposed to be working, but it was vice versa.
	Like, I was, yeah, never mind.
	Anyway, yeah, I had a lot of thoughts about it.
	Like, I would try to talk to him.
	I had those moments, like, when I'm angry and I don't know why am I angry.
	And I realized, okay, he owes me money.
	And I gave him a job and he still do all the things that he was doing before, even though he promised he would change.
	And I was the, you know, the girlfriend that's nagging, trying not to do that, but doing that anyways.
	And I was a bad girlfriend.
	I mean, I didn't believe in him.
	I was supposed to believe in him.
	But he is a good person.
	I mean, good person.
	He wasn't aggressive or anything.
	He would always be calm and happy and loving.
	He was very emotional and he, I would say, melted me, my cold heart.
	He showed me how to express emotions, how to, I don't know.
	I mean, we didn't have fight when we broke up.
	We didn't fight.
	We just sat, cried together, talk about all the things that are not functioning, talk about all the things that we are taking from each other at the cost of living together and being together.
	And we just decided that maybe we will be happier with someone else.
	But we are still in contact and we are trying to talk about a lot of things, like trying to learn a lesson.
	Let's see.
	I'm sorry, I don't know what any of that means.
	It's sort of very abstract.
	How many years have you dated Bob overall?
	Wow.
	Overall, we were together for like six and a half years without the break.
	Okay.
	And how many times did you cheat on him?
	Two times.
	Once it was, sorry, once it was in the beginning.
	And he found out and he accepted it.
	I apologized.
	I didn't do that again.
	But also he hated me because of it.
	And we had a lot of problems because every few days he would remember that.
	He would hate me.
	And then I would use sex to make him feel better.
	And that was the first, I know.
	That was the first part of the relationship.
	And then when we ended it, I cheated on him and I left him.
	I mean, at the moment, I should have do it before, but I didn't.
	So why did you cheat on him, do you think?
	I really wanted to know that.
	The first time, my answer would be, I guess I didn't accept him ever for the thing that he was doing.
	I hate smoking and he was always smoking.
	And I wanted him to change.
	When we first started dating, I mean, maybe it sounds like not very relevant thing, but when we started dating, he told me that he quit smoking.
	Like, he doesn't smoke.
	And then he lied, of course.
	He didn't quit.
	He was hiding it from me.
	And I found out.
	I mean, it wasn't like revenge, but it influenced it.
	After I found out that he was smoking, the stupidest thing I know, but it was back then.
	And I was talking to the friend that I had, and I told him about him smoking.
	And at that time, something happened.
	We had sex, some protected sex, and I was afraid that I will get pregnant.
	Obviously, the chances were very small.
	But I got the pill that you drink and it stopped the ablation or something like that.
	And he didn't have money to pay it.
	And I obviously didn't have that either because we were in high school.
	So he asked a friend for money and he told him what that was about.
	And that friend was a very talkative guy who spread it all over.
	And the guy, my friend at that time, came to my home and he told me about it.
	He told me that the guy I was dating was bad, that he's spreading about us having sex, blah, blah, blah, that I got that feel.
	And he made it sound very, very bad.
	So at that point, I found comfort with that friend and I cheated on him with him.
	And I've been, I did it for like a few months.
	I mean, we were seeing each other once a month, but I was cheating and I was lying to him.
	And I was very cold at that time.
	I wanted him to break up with me.
	Your boyfriend.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Because I didn't have courage to do that.
	But I also think that I wanted him beside me because we started college.
	And it is very selfish.
	I know that now.
	And I later tried to apologize for that.
	I kept him by my side because I knew I thought he would be helping me with the things I may be struggling with.
	Of course, I didn't actually need him, but I had the fiction in my head that if he leaves me, I would just be a dropout or something like that.
	It was a very, very bad thing to do.
	So what I mostly got was that he was smoking and lied to you about it.
	Smoking.
	He was also smoking weed, but I didn't know that.
	Yeah.
	And why do you think he was scared to tell you the truth?
	Well, because before we started dating, I told him that I don't like that and that I would date him if he stopped.
	So that was the only condition to start dating.
	So if he would tell me the truth, I would break up with him, I guess.
	Okay, got it.
	All right.
	And do you know why he was smoking and liked cigarettes and drugs?
	Well, he had a very troubled childhood also.
	He started smoking when he was 13.
	As I told you, he's very smart.
	And I'm not over saying that because he was the kid that whole city was talking about.
	And his mother had him very young.
	And she was literally forcing him to be the best student in the class.
	And he hated school.
	And just the other day, he was telling me that he would set him in the chair in the front of the room in front of everyone.
	And she would humiliate him.
	She would tell him that he's a bad boy, that if he doesn't study, he would won't have any clothes and any nice clothes, shoes, whatever.
	And she asked him if he wants to have nice clothes or to have good grades.
	And he, no, she was like, she told him, okay, do you want to learn and have good and nice things and not learn and not have good things?
	And he chose the other thing and she beat him.
	She literally gave him a punch and cursed at him.
	Like she gave him a choice and he chose and she didn't like his what he chose.
	So when he would he would have all A's until like sixth grade or something like that and he would get B and he would beat him for getting a B. So his whole life, someone was telling him what to do, even though he didn't want to do that.
	And then he found me, who is who also wants everything to be perfect, to have all the good habits, blah, blah, blah.
	And I did literally the same thing that his mom did to him.
	So when did you figure that out?
	Well, now.
	Sorry, like this call?
	I mean, no, no, no, no.
	And the last time.
	I can just have a smoke break here.
	I'm just kidding.
	I'm just kidding.
	I don't smoke.
	I know.
	No, he we were talking about, as I told you earlier, the last time we had a really huge conversation, we were both crying like that happened never before that.
	And he told me about these things in his childhood and I started crying for him.
	I imagine that little boy sitting there, like helpless and being, I don't know, cursed for things that he has to do and he doesn't want to do.
	I really felt bad and I apologized to him and I begged him to forgive me for all the things that I've done to him that were basically his mom.
	Right.
	I mean, with the understanding that he probably chose you in part because of that.
	Yeah, and then we talked about it.
	I chose him because I wanted some kind of, well, security of intelligence or whatever.
	And he chose me because I was everything his mother told him to be.
	So yeah, we came to that conclusion.
	Okay.
	And what's he doing as a whole?
	I mean, you said he's this, you used this phrase like we were in faculty or we got to faculty.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	He dropped out.
	He never finished it.
	Then he started doing some small jobs just to survive.
	And now he's, well, in architecture field, he's doing some modeling, but his passion is a video game, making video games.
	He's doing some modeling?
	3D modeling.
	I was going to say, like, look at this, this guy.
	All right.
	No, no, no, no.
	He's doing 3D modeling in architecture, but he also likes the, I guess you heard about Unreal Engine for making games.
	Well, we both are using that software.
	I am doing that for the faculty.
	And he has a passion for making video games.
	And he always had so many great ideas about things.
	And I really loved it.
	But of course, he never did anything about it.
	Like he would always just talk about it and no action was done.
	Okay, so he's not doing that now either?
	No, no, he's not.
	Now he lives alone and he smokes in the house and he was forbidden to do that.
	Also, he was forbidden to smoke weed.
	Now he smokes weed.
	Like he does now everything.
	When I asked him what he's living now in the, we went separate ways like two weeks ago.
	He moved out.
	I stayed in the home that we were together, living in.
	And so yeah, we're not living anymore together.
	So I remember when I asked him, what are your plans now?
	And he told me, YOLO, like you only live once.
	I'm going to smoke weed.
	I'm going to smoke cigarettes.
	I'm going to do everything that I was forbidden to do these two years.
	Yeah.
	And the one very important things that I didn't mention is that he was talking about kids since the moment we moved in together.
	And I was always like, okay, I know I'm supposed to have kids, but I don't feel like having kids.
	And I now think that I just didn't trust him enough to have kids with him because I was afraid.
	I mean, maybe that's just an excuse, but I was afraid, like, okay, I gave him all these conditions.
	You are not supposed to smoke in the house, you're not supposed to smoke in front of me.
	I don't want to, yeah, you pre-nagged him.
	Yep, yeah, you nagged him before getting married.
	Okay.
	Yeah, yeah.
	So I was afraid that once we have kids, he would just be like, okay, there's no coming back now.
	I can do whatever I want.
	I think that was also part of it.
	Because it's not like I never had those little moments where I imagined us having kids.
	I'm just too afraid of that whole topic.
	But anyway, he really wanted it.
	And he really asked me a few times, okay, if you really don't want to have kids, if you really feel like you're never going to want to have kids.
	And I would always tell him, I cannot tell you something that I don't know, but I know that's unfair.
	So I told him that I want him to prove me that he would be a good father, that he would, I mean, I mentioned you in the letter.
	I asked him to go for a walk and he would be like, oh, I hate walking.
	Or if we go for a walk, he would be, oh, I'm tired.
	Let's go sit in the coffee bar and have a coffee.
	And that really annoyed me as well.
	He tried sometimes.
	And I asked him, well, if we have kids, are you going to have a walk with your kids?
	Are you going to have a, are you going to play outside?
	Yeah, sorry.
	I'm mortal.
	So yeah, he didn't meet your standards.
	Right?
	So you just kind of nagged him to be different.
	He didn't end up being different.
	Yeah.
	And so you broke up with him.
	Basic story.
	No, that's not.
	That's fine.
	That's fine.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	I mean, it's not like I actually, we talked about it and I was not sure I want to leave him.
	I was even hesitant a bit, but he was not sure.
	No, but you had all these conditions.
	Yeah.
	So you didn't want him for who he was.
	Yeah.
	You wanted him to change.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	So you wanted him to change?
	He didn't change.
	And so you broke up with him?
	Well, yes.
	Sorry, I don't mean to oversimplify it, but it seems like.
	No, no, no.
	You should.
	You should.
	I went too wide.
	Okay.
	And so how can I best help?
	And I really appreciate all this background.
	I really do.
	So how can I best bend my brain in your service?
	Well, I still have that big fear from having kids.
	I was listening to your podcast with the woman, 30 years old, that one that was single at 30.
	And also I was listening to the podcast of the woman with two kids.
	And I had a lot of answers there, but I just figured that my friends who have kids, when I need to go and meet them, I have an obligation to be there.
	And I always have to make something up, like, okay, I have to be somewhere in two hours.
	I can't stand the attention that kids need and everything like that.
	So I got some answers from the previous podcast when you told the girl that her mother didn't have time for them.
	So I guess that's also one of the things about me.
	And I am asking if I, well, is it about the partner or is it about me being a feminist for the longest time?
	Or, I mean, my brother also doesn't want kids.
	He doesn't have a girlfriend and I'm not sure if he ever had serious relationship.
	So we are both in the same bubble, wanting to have money, wanting to be businessmen, even though I'm a girl, and not wanting the family.
	Okay, so what do you want in life as a whole?
	I mean, you know, obviously you don't have to have kids, right?
	Yes, yes, yes.
	But I have the most selfish reason when I think about not having kids in 20 years, you know, because everybody around me tells me, oh, if you are 50 or 60 and you have no one to be around you, I don't want to have kids because I need someone to give me a glass of water when I'm old.
	I want to have kids for really wanting to have kids.
	And right now, when I think about my life without kids, it's career.
	Like I am a teacher, I'm a researcher, I have a lot of students I spend my most days with.
	I enjoy being with them.
	I enjoy helping them and all of that.
	But deep inside, I know that I should have family.
	Sorry, what do you mean by you should have family?
	I'm not sure what you mean.
	Well, I'm supposed to have family.
	That's my nature, right?
	Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.
	What do you mean by your nature?
	Well, I mean, we are humans.
	Humans are supposed to are reproductive beings, like, you know, in the in scientific way.
	Well, but not all human beings?
	Well, yeah.
	Right.
	I mean, there were times when for every one woman, for every one woman who reproduced, you know, sorry, for every 10 men who reproduced, one woman, oh, sorry, for every one woman who reproduced, she reproduced with a bunch of different men or sometimes.
	So there's, you know, the incels, there's the monks, there's the priests, there's the celibates and so on, right?
	So there's lots of people who don't have other purpose in their life.
	Yeah.
	They have another purpose or whatever.
	Yeah, you are correct.
	Well, I'm just wondering why I have this feeling of having to have kids, and I don't have that maternal instinct yet.
	Is it because I think I should do that, or because I want to do it, but I'm afraid?
	Like, I still cannot.
	I'm sorry.
	Are you asking me what you feel?
	I don't know what you feel.
	Sorry.
	I mean, I'm not an oracle.
	I can't peer deep into the heart of your thoughts and feelings and see things that you cannot.
	Yeah, I know.
	So you shouldn't want to have kids because you think you should.
	And you shouldn't want to have kids just because I think you put it kind of disrespectfully.
	No, no negatives, right?
	You said to fetch you a cup of water when you get old.
	Yeah, I actually.
	That's the really, really, really empty and cynical way to look at the parent-child relationship.
	Like, they just ferry water at you kind of thing.
	No, no, no.
	I said, I don't want that.
	I said, like, that's the horrible thing when someone tells me, like, that's not a problem.
	No, I mean, when you get old, it's about having people who are grateful for the gifts you've given them.
	It's about grandchildren.
	It's about having people who care for you as you are no longer sexually attractive and no longer spry and youthful and healthy.
	And, right?
	It's about people who care for your wrinkled, unattractive old ass when you get old because you have provided, you know, great value to others.
	So it's really the cycle of life and love and so on.
	And so it's not about getting you some water.
	I mean, a waiter can get you a glass of water.
	It's not like that's just a very diminished way to put it.
	And that tells me that there's a certain amount of alienated cynicism with you that you would need to frame it that way, that they just fetch you a glass of water.
	Yeah, you are right.
	And it's not a criticism.
	I mean, you're being honest with your thoughts.
	So this is not a criticism, but it's a pretty, pretty chillingly cold way to view the relationship.
	It's sort of like people who say, I don't want to have to get up twice at night to wipe my baby's ass.
	Like that's parenting or something like that.
	Like that's sort of the foundation of it.
	I don't want to become a brood mare.
	I don't want to be a birthing canal.
	Like that kind of stuff, right?
	As opposed to, you know, you get to create this wonderful life that you get to hopefully help become wise and virtuous and see a brain grow and so on.
	I mean, it's just amazing, amazing experience.
	I just did a show on Friday with my daughter.
	It was only supposed to be like 20 minutes.
	We went two hours because the questions were so good and she was so much fun with the answers.
	So that's it's an incredible experience.
	And it's not about her getting me water when I'm old.
	Of course.
	Of course.
	No, but it's not, again, it's not a criticism, but the fact that people need to phrase it that way means that you have bitterness about the subject.
	Yeah, that's sort of like saying, well, I don't want to write a novel because I don't want to just sit hunched over in a basement tapping away at a keyboard.
	You know, it just diminishes the whole thing as opposed to glorious flights of fancy that create people and situations and helps make the world wiser.
	You know what I mean?
	Like if you just reduce it to the beer, like the barest physical things, right?
	Yes, you are right.
	I mean, you mentioned that in that last pocket that I was listening to, that it's kind of demonic when people don't want to don't want to have kids.
	I mean, maybe I just made it simple.
	Well, the demonic aspect is, look, if you are curing cancer, go for it.
	And if you say, hey, man, the price of me curing cancer is not having kids, if you're writing great novels or you're starting companies or doing something just amazing with your life, then you're still contributing to the human story, right?
	In a sense, you are like, if you think, obviously, this is an extreme example, but if you think of someone like Steve Jobs, he was not a good father, but he hired like 10,000 people and they could become fathers because he gave them jobs.
	Yeah, you are correct.
	And mothers, right?
	So if you're contributing to the human story in some significant way, and for most people, that significance is children.
	Because most people aren't going to found multi-billion dollar companies or hire a thousand people or write a great novel or, you know, direct movies or like they're not going to do that.
	That's not their skill, their talent, their ability.
	For most people, the participation in the great human story is in the form of children and community.
	Now, the reason why I have some skepticism with regards to your pronouncements about parenthood is because what are you doing that's so important?
	Like, how are you contributing to the world?
	Because you said you sort of feel down or self-destructive or whatever it is.
	And in general, if you're contributing to the world in a sort of positive way and you're taking on difficulties in order to improve the world in some manner, then why would you be sad?
	But I think that I'm not sure where in your letter you are contributing in a meaningful way to the world.
	I know you're teaching and so on, but clearly that's not enough for you, right?
	No, no, it's not enough because I obviously cannot make the kind of contribution Steve Jobs did.
	Well, if you were some fantastic, you know, Robin Williams goodbye, Mr. Chips kind of amazing teacher and you had a deep passion for it and you inspired greatness in your students, that could be something.
	Yeah.
	But I don't get the sense that that's your experience of teaching.
	Well, no.
	I mean, no, no, definitely not.
	I mean, I do love them.
	They do love me.
	But maybe it's just because I'm young and I have energy because now I see my colleagues not having energy.
	So yeah, maybe I'm just...
	Are you like Hammond Rock striding from building to building?
	I mean, do you have a great, deep, and holy passion for architecture?
	And I, I, that sounds cynical.
	I don't mean that.
	I mean, maybe you do.
	No, no, no, don't worry.
	Well, I have a passion generally with the art and designing and 3D modeling.
	I'm in the digital architecture field.
	Fantastic.
	Okay, so how many buildings have you created or built?
	No, no, no.
	I haven't.
	I haven't created in that kind of way.
	So you had the nerve to criticize your boyfriend for not building the games he talks about.
	Yeah.
	You've been studying architecture or related fields for over a decade, right?
	Yes.
	What have you built?
	Yeah, I didn't build anything.
	Why not?
	Well, because I lack...
	Like, I'm not building.
	I'm doing some research.
	I'm more than, but you are right.
	Doing some research.
	No, no, no.
	I'm sorry, I'm getting a face tan from this inspiration supernova here.
	No, no, no.
	I'm doing exactly what he does.
	Like, I'm talking about things, I'm dreaming about things, but I do nothing.
	I'm not an architect, of course, and I don't really know the field very well outside of the fountain head, which is a little out of date.
	But I mean, why can't you build things?
	Are you not allowed?
	Is this not part of your license?
	No, it's not part of my department.
	I'm more in the digital architecture field and in the designing field.
	Okay, so sorry, just to, I mean, why can't you design things?
	You mean design things get built?
	Well, because I yeah, I'm not really into that kind of architecture.
	I mean, okay, help me understand.
	What is digital architecture?
	Well, yeah.
	No, it's you have a field that you know the people who are doing, I mean, generally, I don't want to go into it, but here the situation is that you have investors who are doing your project for you.
	Like literally, you just draw and they tell you what to do.
	So it's very underdeveloped.
	Of course, there are people who are doing big things and I admire them.
	Very underdeveloped.
	I don't know what that means.
	Sorry.
	Just assume I know nothing.
	It's a good question.
	Yeah, okay.
	So anyway, for example, in US, in Europe, generally, in Germany, England, whatever, people are, architects are something.
	Like if they tell you, okay, you cannot put that building there, they want to put it.
	But here, it's the small economy, it's the small country, and the politics is terrible.
	So you have investors who are like doing everything.
	If you have money, you can build whatever you want.
	So architect is just someone who draws things that you imagined.
	And what I do, I'm trying to, for example, now I'm more into these public competitions where you apply with the project and you are trying to do it in the city.
	Right now, I am doing some plan for the city in the neighborhood, but you are correct.
	This isn't fulfilling me and something is lacking.
	I still don't really understand what you're doing.
	But, you know, maybe it's just, it's hard to sum up, you know, 10 to 12 years of education in a sentence or two.
	Okay.
	So you make some plans, but they don't usually get translated into anything that gets billed, at least not so far.
	Is that right?
	No, yeah.
	Right now I am doing one big project that I guess that's for now.
	It's the biggest project I've ever worked on because it's the urbanistic plan and design for the entire city center in the city here in the country.
	So that is one of the biggest things that I would do.
	And generally what I was doing is you have competitions like one country or international competitions where you apply with the project and if they pick you, it's going to be built.
	And I had a lot of these and I had a lot of these first prizes, but it was never built because of lacking money or whatever.
	So it's not like.
	Okay, so you apply for contests and you win contests, but nothing gets built.
	Yeah, I mean, it was like six contents that I built, that I won and it wasn't built, but this one that I'm working on now, it is going to be built.
	Yeah.
	So that's a big breakthrough, right?
	Well, it is.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	Well, congratulations.
	And does that feel fulfilling and exciting for you?
	I don't think so.
	I mean, it does.
	I feel enthusiasm.
	You should have been working at this for 12 years that you finally have your opportunity.
	Yes, yes.
	That'd be like if I was writing novels for 12 years and I finally got published and I was like, yeah.
	No, I am happy and I am enthusiastic, but also I have kind of fear of putting, of being stressed because of it, because it's going to happen.
	You know, when you work on something and you get stressed and overwhelmed by situations.
	Oh, no, sorry.
	That's a bit of a chick thing.
	Sorry.
	That's a bit of a female thing.
	Like men don't get, men in general, we don't get overwhelmed.
	I mean, we have our other faults, of course, right?
	We have other things that we don't necessarily Do perfectly, but the overwhelm thing, that's a female thing.
	And again, that's no criticism.
	I absolutely love women and happily married and all of that.
	But the overwhelm thing, that's not a dude thing.
	I understand.
	Yeah.
	I mean, sometimes men could maybe stand to get panic a little, like your boyfriend.
	But yeah, generally the overwhelm thing is not a male thing.
	Yeah, I understand.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So you have finally achieved a success that you want and you're worried and experiencing it to some degree as a negative state.
	Yes.
	And I do that a lot with all the things I do.
	I'm also an artist.
	I do some kind of, I know what you think about artists.
	Wait, okay.
	Hang on, hang on.
	What do I think about artists?
	No, it's not, I didn't mean it like that.
	It's not like what you mean, but I know that I remember also hearing some podcast about some woman that grew old and she was artist and she was traveling a lot or something like that.
	And maybe I'm mixing it up.
	I mean, you know I write novels, right?
	Yeah, I know.
	I like to think they're a tiny bit artistic.
	Yeah, it is.
	I'm sorry.
	I didn't mean it to be like, you know, sorry.
	I have that feeling that people find artists like painters and, you know, people who are so crazy and creative, blah, blah, blah.
	They find them unnecessary to the world.
	Let's say it like that, probably like that.
	I'm doing like caricatures and portraits, and I also earn from that.
	And I really love doing that.
	But sometimes I feel like that's not necessary.
	Like, you know, people can live without it.
	Like, if I build buildings, it's something that people need.
	And that's what I felt when you asked me that.
	I know that you didn't mean that, but it's my problem with criticizing myself and getting criticism from people, as we stated before.
	I just feel like I'm not worth enough.
	Like, okay, what are you doing now?
	You're just wasting your time doing some portraits and caricatures for people.
	Well, no, you're building a whole city center, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	That's pretty good, isn't it?
	Well, it is.
	It is pretty good.
	And it's a big thing.
	But, you know, I always feel like, well, I could do more.
	Like, there are people who are doing more.
	There are people who are better.
	There are people who are providing more to their communities.
	Like, it's just like nothing is enough.
	Like, you know, I really do feel like I didn't do anything, even though my achievements, my diplomas, my certificates, whatever would tell, people would tell me, oh, you just did so much.
	And I just don't see that.
	Sorry, who says you did so much?
	People around me.
	Like, they're always envying me.
	Like, oh, you worked so much.
	You learned so much.
	Yes.
	Yeah, the women around you.
	Yeah.
	Women don't generally don't provoke, don't say what they think might provoke anxiety in another woman.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Like men will do that all the time.
	You suck.
	You lose.
	You lose her, right?
	I mean, we will sort of poke men's anxiety because it's not that big.
	You are so right.
	But, you know, women score very high tintrait neuroticism, which is fantastic.
	You know, it's why we're all here, right?
	It's why we're all alive.
	So I like that.
	That's wonderful.
	But yeah, I mean, women won't say, if you say, I think I'm underachieving, there's almost no women in the world who will say to you, yeah, I can see that.
	Yeah, I think you really have underachieved.
	I mean, my boyfriend used to tell me that I'm also the kind of person that would tell, I would get an a C and I get an E at the end.
	Like, he also told me that I am too.
	It's like I. Yeah, I can't really take much from your boyfriend either because he's wasting his gifts, right?
	Yeah, you're right.
	Okay.
	You're also right.
	So you can't enjoy failure and you can't enjoy success.
	Yes.
	Excellent.
	Sounds like a very healthy plan.
	Yeah, and healthy life.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So you said you're not contributing the most.
	Well, I mean, that's like saying I'm poor because I'm not as wealthy as Elon Musk, right?
	You can't compare yourself to the people who are at the very top, right?
	Because that's just a sure recipe for failure.
	You are correct.
	And even the people at the very top, they have significant issues in their personal relationships.
	Like if you look at something like, oh, Bill Gates was very wealthy, it's like, yeah, and he was good buds with Jeffrey Epstein and his wife divorced him because he wouldn't disavow this, like one of the most evil men in the last, you know, couple of decades.
	So, hey, he's got all this money or Elon Musk, right?
	I mean, he's complete workaholic, has, you know, some trouble sleeping.
	And he said to you, look, you may think you want my life.
	You don't want my life.
	So a lot of them.
	Yeah, I mean, it's sort of like looking at the really good-looking people and say, oh, man, they've got it made.
	And it's like, well, yeah, but they never feel, it's hard for them to feel loved.
	Yes, you are so right.
	So I'm trying to sort of figure out what is your lack of satisfaction here.
	Because it doesn't hold up to any particular logical scrutiny, right?
	Well, I always thought when I was analyzing it that it's because I never was praised by my parents.
	Like they just took my successes as normal thing.
	Like I would get an A. Okay, you got an A because you are smart.
	What do you want?
	Like it's normal for us.
	And then when I graduated, it was also, we didn't celebrate it.
	Everyone else was celebrating, I didn't, and everything that I achieved, I was the best student at my year.
	No one would, I mean, they congratulated me, but I never felt like they are so but your parents are retarded, like your parents.
	I mean, with all due sympathy for their childhoods and the war, I mean, all of that.
	But your father was a raging drunk and your mother was drowning in self-pity.
	Yeah.
	Like, why would the opinions of absolute morons when it comes to life as a whole, why would the opinion of absolute morons hold such weight with you at 30?
	I don't know.
	My parents, who are incapable of love, did not love me.
	Well, yeah.
	And yes.
	That's what it means to be incapable of love.
	They're not capable of love, right?
	Yes.
	And why are they not capable of love?
	Because they've done great evil.
	Sorry, it's a fact.
	You're yours.
	I mean, you're right.
	I mean, your father.
	Well, they put you in the care, custody, and control of a grandmother who beat you.
	Your father was drunk, violent at times, right?
	Yes.
	Your mother failed to protect you, failed to do whatever was necessary to keep her children safe.
	So, you know, one of the fucking prices you pay for doing evil is you don't get love.
	And you will never get love when you harm children.
	I don't mean whoops, right?
	I mean, if you repeatedly harm children and your parents are in their 50s now?
	Yeah, my mother is your age.
	Okay.
	It's really old.
	So they have done great evil and they have not acknowledged their evil.
	They've not apologized and they've not worked to make restitution or any plan by which you can have some reasonable assurance it won't happen again.
	Is that fair to say?
	Yes, it is.
	I mean.
	So do unrepentant child abusers get to have love?
	The greatest gift in the universe is love?
	Do people who do evil and don't repent get love?
	Well, no.
	Do people who do evil and don't repent should their judgment be worthy of respect and deference?
	No, no, not at all.
	So help me understand why you've listened to me for a while, but your parents still have some kind of credibility with you.
	How?
	How is this possible?
	Well, I guess I didn't face it enough.
	Enough?
	At all?
	Well, I don't know.
	How long have you listened to what I do?
	Well, like six or six years, I think, now.
	Okay.
	So have you taken my advice and had an honest conversation with your parents about the wrongs they did?
	Yes, I did.
	And I expected my mom to be worse than my father because I always thought he was emotional.
	He was going to admit, but he actually, when I told him that I was traumatized by him and his drinking, he got back at me and he told me, how can you say that?
	Traumatized, do you know what it means?
	I was traumatized in the war and you were traumatized by what?
	I never put a hand on you.
	I never...
	Yes, but mom, I expected that she would be cold and she would reject me, but she actually, I mean, I didn't completely get a lot from her, but I saw some kind of, I mean, she did apologize and she told me that she didn't really apologize.
	Like, she didn't.
	Okay, this is just getting worse and worse, right?
	Yeah, sorry.
	Sorry.
	I have to apologize.
	I'm just saying that it's.
	Yes, I was talking to her for nearly four hours.
	And she told me that she would change things.
	Sorry, but what did she say?
	What did she say that she did?
	Well, she told me that her mother was also, for example, emotions.
	Yes, she did.
	Just as your father did.
	Well, I had a bad childhood.
	So they selfishly made it about themselves.
	Yes.
	Okay, so did you call them out on that and say, this is not about you, you selfish people?
	This is about me.
	Well, with him, he just took off.
	So I didn't.
	Okay, but for your mother.
	For mother, yes, I told her.
	And I asked her if she knows that I will do exactly the same things if she don't open up to me and if she just.
	Like if I have kids, I guess I would be repeating all her patterns and I am afraid of having kids because of it.
	And I don't want to ruin someone's life like they ruined mine.
	And she told me that she doesn't think that she ruined my life, but also she told me that as for not being emotional, she told me that that's the only way she knew.
	Okay, so she didn't take responsibility and she made excuses and she made it about herself.
	Yes, yes, you're correct.
	I have no other thing.
	Yeah, I didn't.
	I mean, I left because we don't live in the same house, obviously, but I never thought about not contacting them again because.
	Well, did you bring the topic up again and say you weren't satisfied?
	If you weren't, it sounds like you weren't.
	Yes, I did.
	I've just been talking to her today because I was asking her about some first years of my life.
	And the other day also I was telling her about it.
	It's just like she does admit it to some point, but I don't think it comes up to her heart, if I can say it like that.
	It's just she has walls, and I never got to go behind them.
	So yeah, you are correct.
	I'm trying, but I'm not doing anything.
	Maybe I should be more...
	Definitely.
	He has some, of course, health issues now.
	Your father has health issues.
	No, my mother.
	He also, but it's like I don't really have a lot of contact with him.
	I do, but we are barely talking.
	But they live together, right?
	They live together, yes.
	But whenever I come home, he's either not there or we just see each other in some kind of short interactions.
	But they do live together, yes.
	So I'm not sure I quite understand.
	You go to visit your mother, your father's around and he just pretends you're not there?
	Well, I pretend that he's not there.
	He tries to have some kind of.
	Well, you are correct.
	Yeah.
	I mean, whenever I try talking to him before, he doesn't listen.
	He has his mind somewhere else.
	You are correct.
	So what has your mother done to fix these issues with your father?
	Well, nothing.
	She just also gave up on him.
	They live together.
	She cooks.
	She cleans, but they don't have any more conversation than like they have some kind of business relationship.
	Like they live together, they share kids together, but they don't drink coffee together or talk about some beautiful things in life or about their kids being.
	So they've turned into the grandparents who barely talk to each other, right?
	Yes, yes.
	Okay.
	And do you think that this is mature and healthy or a wise way to live?
	Or what's your perspective on this?
	Well, I don't think that.
	Of course, I don't want that to happen to me.
	And I hate that it's happening.
	I don't like that kind of life.
	They do, they share.
	I hate that my brother and my sister live with them.
	I hate all of it.
	Okay.
	So why do you continue a relationship with them?
	And please understand, I'm not saying you shouldn't.
	I don't know.
	But I'm curious as to why you would.
	I mean, it's a ridiculously dysfunctional marriage.
	And your mother has not apologized for the wrongs she did.
	Your father has stormed out and not apologized for the wrongs he did.
	So they're unrepentant child abusers and neglectors.
	So what's the plus?
	Again, I'm not saying there isn't one.
	I just don't see what it is.
	Well, I obviously if I to be the most honest I can be, if I stop contacting them, it would mean also that I would stop contacting my brother and sister because they wouldn't understand this.
	Me not talking to my parents because it would be.
	Okay, but this is all the past.
	I know.
	This is all the unchosen past.
	Do you know what it costs you to be wrapped up with such messed up, dysfunctional people?
	What did Bob think of your family?
	Exactly what you told me, and he was afraid to mention some things because I wasn't reacting well.
	For example, when he was trying to tell me that I had kind of sick relationship with my brother because I would never let anyone tell anything bad about him, I was in the beginning, I was very repulsive or I didn't want to accept it.
	But later, the few last conversations that we had, I really understood him.
	And also my best friend who was therapist, she told me that if I continued having the relationship in my family as I have, that I would never be able to have my own family because I'm still having comfort home when I feel sick or anything.
	And if I don't create another family, I would be I would the reason why I don't want kids and I don't want to have my own family is because I'm still contacting my original family that's as you said very very dysfunctional so yeah he also thought so but he also had his family that done also evil a lot of it and he also didn't stop contacting them so we were both having dysfunctional
	families that we are still contacting because we are sorry or afraid that we will break them if we do that.
	Right.
	So, yeah.
	So, that's not mostly it, in my opinion.
	What's mostly it is that if you come across a guy, what's your favorite male name?
	My favorite male name, Alexei.
	Alexei, great name.
	I feel that's a Dostoevsky character already.
	Okay.
	So, Alexei.
	Okay.
	So, let's say you meet Alexei.
	It could be tomorrow, could be anytime soon, right?
	You meet Alexei and he's smart, wise, cool, funny, moral.
	He has integrity, you know, a really, really great and admirable guy.
	Like you might meet three Alexei's if you're lucky in your lifetime, Right?
	Mm-hmm.
	you are still hanging out with your family and talking to your brother and and you know you're afraid to be honest with your brother and you can't be honest with your family and they they're messed up and your parents don't talk to each other and you don't talk to your father when you go over and so on right and alexi uh you know you're you're chatting with him he likes you he thinks you're cool and fun and interesting and smart which you are uh But then he's like, ooh, so tell me a bit.
	And then you tell him about your family, right?
	Yes.
	Right.
	And what does he think?
	Well, he thinks that I shouldn't be contacting them.
	And I am afraid that he would do that.
	And that's why I'm not coming.
	Sorry, you're afraid that he would do what?
	Well, he would rip me apart from them, I guess.
	I mean, he would go away.
	No, he won't.
	No, he won't rip you apart from them.
	He won't.
	No, he would.
	Well, he would ask me to.
	No, I mean, he would.
	No, no, he wouldn't.
	No, no, I'm telling you.
	I'm telling you.
	He wouldn't be in that.
	He wouldn't do any of that.
	I would suppose to be that.
	No, no, no.
	Let's not make it about you again.
	Sorry, sorry, sorry.
	Still focus on Alexi.
	Okay, him.
	Yeah.
	He would, well, he would see them as they are, I guess.
	He wouldn't see them.
	He wouldn't think that he would be the one who, like, I feel like I know the answer, but I don't know how to answer it.
	Okay.
	He would see them as they are.
	He would see them as evil doors.
	There's no history with them.
	Yes, and he would see the actual truth about them.
	They would just be people who are evil and who...
	I mean, I get that there's, you know, your father was a victim and your parents were victims, but they definitely have not taken responsibility for the evils that they are.
	For their actions.
	Yeah, yes.
	Right.
	Yes.
	So what would he do?
	Well, he would either leave me if I don't leave them, I guess.
	Well, he won't leave you because you just met him.
	Yeah.
	You're just talking.
	Maybe you go on a date or maybe you go on a couple of dates and he finds out about your family.
	So he's not leaving you because you're not really an item yet.
	We're together.
	Yeah, of course.
	So what does he do?
	Well, I guess he would try to tell me that no.
	No.
	Nope.
	Okay, can you tell me what he would do?
	Well, he would wish you well and move on.
	Yeah, of course.
	He would just go away from me.
	Maybe not leave me, but like not ever ask me to go on his date.
	Yeah, and listen, he wouldn't do it out of any hostility.
	No, of course.
	I mean, I've been doing that.
	Sorry, but let me just be sort of be clear.
	So what he would say is he would find out, oh, you've been listening.
	And let's say he knew something about me.
	Oh, you've been listening to, say, Stefan Molyneux or Philosophy or whoever for like nine years, was it?
	Six.
	Six years.
	Sorry, six.
	I knew it was something to do.
	I just had it upside down.
	Okay.
	So for six years and you hadn't resolved things, right?
	And then he would ask about your boyfriend of over six years, right?
	And you would say, oh, he's a drug addict loser who's never making anything with his life.
	Right?
	Yes.
	Which is not, I mean, with all due respect to your boyfriend, your ex-boyfriend, he's not winning at life, right?
	No, not at all.
	And he have all things to do that, but he's not using it.
	Right.
	So Alexei would say, so after six years of philosophy, you're still enmeshed in a pretty terrible family structure, and you've only recently broken up with a highly dysfunctional boyfriend because he didn't obey you about smoking.
	So would he say, I want to invest in this?
	Of course not.
	Of course not.
	So that's the price.
	Yes.
	The price is you don't get Alexi.
	And then you have to settle for whoever's willing to put up with your lack of integrity.
	When should you have broken up with Bob?
	Well, that's before we started dating.
	Well, no, but I mean, given that you dated and, you know, you kind of got back together when he was older.
	And when should you have broken up with Bob?
	Well, the moment he found out, I guess, what my relationship with my family is and what kind of person they are.
	Sorry, I don't know.
	Sorry, the moment.
	No.
	When should you have broken up with Bob?
	Sorry, I lost track of you.
	You talked about him.
	Me with him, not him with me.
	Okay, sorry, sorry.
	I thought you asked questions.
	No, no, no, never mind.
	Sorry.
	Well.
	Okay.
	Was he a drug addict?
	Yes, yes, yes.
	I didn't know about it, but come on.
	Before, no, before, yeah, of course.
	Before we started dating, now I. Is it your job?
	Hang on.
	See, this is why Alexi won't date you, man.
	Don't give excuses.
	Don't fucking do it.
	Don't do it.
	I didn't know.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Because it's a lot.
	Because it's your job to know.
	Yeah, it's your job to vet people you give your heart to.
	No.
	Did you know that Alexei, sorry, did you know that Bob had significant problems when you dated him?
	Yes, I did.
	Okay.
	And when did you find out he was a drug addict?
	When we broke up, he later told me that six months, the last six months of our relationship, he was smoking weed and that he was hiding from me.
	And he was doing that every day for almost the whole day.
	And when I would come to his room, he would act like he woke up, just woke up.
	So I wouldn't realize that his eyes were bloody or something like that.
	So I really.
	Sorry, how long had he been doing marijuana as a whole?
	So he quit, I think, after we broke.
	Well, at some point, he quit because it was too much, and then he didn't do it at all.
	And then he started doing it again.
	I found out about it after like a year living together, and I made a scene, of course.
	Did you not know the man you claim to love was doing drugs for a year?
	Well, it wasn't every weekend.
	It was like once a month.
	And he was doing that when I wasn't here.
	And he was hiding it.
	So I didn't know.
	Okay, so he would do it when you were away for a weekend or something?
	Yes.
	And the night I find out was I went to sleep and he thought I was sleeping.
	And I came in the living room and I felt the smell.
	Okay.
	And I looked at him and his eyes were bloody.
	And I realized, and I just went out.
	I told him that we have been broken up, but I didn't break up because I was too weak to do that.
	I needed comfort.
	I needed someone to live with.
	So I just didn't break up.
	And then he promised me that he won't be doing that.
	Okay.
	When did you first realize that Bob was a liar as a whole, or he was fine with lying?
	I guess like a year ago.
	And I so you dated.
	Hang on.
	Hang on.
	So you just, Alexi is listening very closely.
	Very closely.
	So are you saying that you dated Bob for over five years before you realized that he was a liar or was okay with lying?
	Yeah, I did.
	Okay, so that's not believable at all.
	I don't understand.
	Sorry.
	It is not believable that you had absolutely no idea.
	No idea that Bob had a habit of lying or was fine with lying.
	You had no idea of that for half a decade or more.
	No, just your sort.
	I mean, I pretended not to know that, obviously.
	Okay, so looking back, when did you last when did you first notice that Bob was comfortable with lying?
	Or I want to just call he's not just a liar, of course, right?
	But when did you first realize that Bob could lie?
	Well, I guess it was the moment that I caught him smoking and he was telling me that he doesn't smoke.
	Okay, and when was that?
	At the very beginning of our relationship.
	Okay, so he got up when he thought you were sleeping and he smoked and then all of that, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Yes.
	It also would be, I guess, when he kept saying he was going to quit smoking and he didn't, right?
	Yes, yes.
	Because that's a lie, right?
	If you make a commitment, then you have to keep it or tell the other person you're not, but he would just kind of hide it or go back to it or something like that, right?
	Yes, yes.
	Okay, so do you see the difference?
	If you say, well, I didn't know and I didn't know until the last year, it's not true.
	And then you're in the difficult position of complaining that Bob is a liar while lying.
	Because I just accepted it.
	No.
	No, you lied.
	You said to Alexi, you said, I didn't know that Bob was kind of a liar until the last year of the relationship.
	And then it turns out that you actually knew it right at the beginning.
	So you're complaining about Bob being a liar while lying about not knowing that Bob was a liar.
	No, it's just incredible.
	When I listen to your podcast, and people cannot answer their problems and stuff like that, I'm like, oh, no, you're answering.
	And I'm doing that.
	You're absolutely answering.
	Yeah, but I cannot believe that I didn't see this.
	Like, you are so, so, so right.
	So you cannot lie if you want a Bob.
	Now, look, we're all not perfect.
	So it's not like you have to walk on water and never tell a fib or anything like that.
	So I'm not saying anything like that, right?
	We're all human.
	We all make mistakes.
	But you have to have that commitment.
	And you can't just make up shit that you think makes yourself look better.
	Because to anybody with half a brain, you just look terrible.
	Yes.
	Oh, my God.
	And you can have good people around you if you just say, well, if there's something uncomfortable, I'll just lie.
	I mean, I don't like admitting that I knew Bob was a liar from the beginning.
	So I'll say, well, he just fooled me.
	And I didn't know till the last year.
	And that's just a lie.
	And again, I say this with affection.
	I really do.
	I'm not trying to bag on you or anything like that, right?
	But it is just a lie.
	And I've just told my mother, like, you always knew my father was drunk.
	And she told me, like, no, I didn't.
	And I told her the exact same thing that you just told me.
	And I couldn't do that with myself.
	Yeah.
	So I am a liar.
	Well, no.
	See, that's black and white thinking, right?
	As I said, we all bend the truth sometimes.
	We all tell fibs and right.
	So anything like that.
	So what I am saying, though, is that you can't have a default position of something's uncomfortable.
	I might be disapproved of.
	So I'll just lie.
	So if somebody says to you, when did you first know that Bob was a liar?
	You have to close your mouth, take a deep breath, and think.
	Okay, when did I, you know what?
	If I'm really honest, really rigorous with myself, when did I first know That Bob was a liar.
	As opposed to, oh no, not till the last month, right?
	Because that's what sounds good.
	That's what makes you feel better.
	Did you see what I mean?
	Yes, I absolutely see what you mean, and that's so correct.
	And I'm not doing that just with that, I'm doing that with everything.
	Like you just described me, I'm avoiding the truth because I'm in the other people's eyes, I look better.
	You're so, so correct.
	And that's my whole life.
	We're all tempted.
	Listen, I never ever want people to think that I have some magic.
	You know, I'm perfect.
	Like, I just really want to be clear about that, that we're all struggling with this honesty stuff.
	We're all struggling with telling the truth in this way.
	So I don't want you to come out of this conversation saying, well, I'm just a liar.
	Of course, you're not just a liar.
	And I was pretty clear that Bob wasn't just a liar, right?
	I think your dad is, but whatever, right?
	But when people ask you a question, if your default position is, I'm going to say what makes me look the best or gives me the least anxiety, then you cannot have quality people in your life.
	And they won't say, oh, that's so terrible, or they won't nag you.
	They won't.
	Nothing like that will happen.
	But what will happen is they'll say, it would be a lot of work.
	It would be a lot of work to be in a relationship with this kind of person because they've been studying philosophy for six years and they still don't quite get the whole be honest as a default position thing.
	Does that make sense?
	No, it makes perfect sense.
	Yeah.
	And so your dissatisfaction is because you have knowledge that you're not acting on.
	Yes.
	That's just about the most dissatisfying thing that there is, is to have to study something.
	You know, it would be like if you had studied nutrition and exercise for six years and were 250 pounds.
	Yeah.
	That would be even more frustrating than having never studied it.
	Does that make sense?
	Because there would be a disconnect between the knowledge and the actions.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	No, no, I just wanted to agree.
	And I know everything what I need to do, but I don't do it.
	And like, what's the problem?
	Yeah.
	So why don't you do it?
	It's a big question, right?
	You have knowledge, six years, right?
	Why don't you do it?
	I'm staying in my comfort zone, obviously.
	No, no, that's just a bit of psycho babble.
	Well, so you're saying I do it because I prefer to do it, which doesn't really help at all, right?
	No, no, not at all.
	I obviously am afraid.
	Okay, that's just another way of saying I don't want to do it.
	So why?
	Yeah, why I don't want to do it.
	Yeah, why I don't want to do it.
	I mean, the first answer would be, again, I don't want to be mean, blah, blah, blah.
	But I know it's not the answer.
	Oh, are you ever going to kick yourself?
	I suspect.
	Because when I tell you, you'll be like, I've only heard that about a thousand times.
	Okay, why don't you want to apply virtue?
	The simple answer is the corrupt people in your life don't want you to.
	Don't want me.
	Yeah.
	Does the guy who's stealing from your company want you to hire a forensic accountant who's going to find him?
	No.
	Right.
	Does your fat friend really want you to lose weight?
	Does your unhappy friend want you to be happy?
	Does your loveless friend want you to find true love?
	Well, a lot of times, no.
	No, it's really the truth.
	Yeah.
	They're stopping me from doing that.
	Yeah, so your parents, and you said that your brother would never accept what you say about your parents, right?
	Have you talked to your brother about your interest in what I do or philosophy as a whole?
	No, no, I didn't.
	Maybe he would.
	Maybe he would surprise me.
	I mean, my sister, I'm talking to her a lot and she's very open and I'm really happy about it because I always was afraid for her because I was kind of bullying her when she was a kid and I apologized and I cried a lot and I really tried to make it up to her and I'm maybe a little bit pushy with her.
	I'm always telling her, please, whatever you need, I'm there.
	I mean, I'm trying to make it up to her.
	And she is really growing up to be very, I think, good thinking person.
	She's very honest.
	I mean, very honest as she could be.
	So I think I have a lot to learn from her.
	She's always talked to your brother about philosophy.
	But I did talk to my sister.
	No, I'm not sure.
	You did talk to your sister.
	So you've talked to your sister about your love of philosophy or what I do, right?
	Yes, I did.
	And I think also she had been listening to some of your shows.
	Okay.
	I also sent her your book.
	Well, she loves the real-time relationships.
	Relationship, yeah.
	And she also told me that it's very interesting.
	She just started listening and she is amazed, especially because she likes to follow politics and stuff like that.
	So I think she's just starting to love it.
	Just a few months ago, I had been sending her.
	I mean, I sent her before, but she didn't listen, but now she started to.
	So I think she is going to get a better picture than I did.
	And I'm certainly going to help her, definitely.
	Okay.
	So If you want to be virtuous, you cannot also please the corrupt and the evildoers in your life.
	That's either or.
	Yes, yes, I know.
	I don't know that you do.
	I don't due respect.
	Sorry, you are sorry.
	I'm sorry.
	I understand that.
	And I'm not sure what are the steps, but I guess the thought of removing my parents from my life would be very, very scary.
	But I guess the first step would be to talk to my brother and see what field does he stand on.
	I mean, would he admit that your father was a drunk and negative?
	I mean, didn't he punch your dad?
	Yes, yes, yes.
	He absolutely would.
	Okay.
	So he would accept that.
	Would he accept that your mother has responsibility in the choices she has made in life?
	I guess he would, but it's very hard because they, two of them, are pretty close.
	So, you know, mother, son, thing.
	So I think that would be a good thing.
	You keep saying close.
	Because you said you're close to your mother.
	You're close to your brother.
	Your brother is close to your mother.
	I mean, if your mother won't even admit her responsibility in her own life, how the hell could she be close to anyone?
	If she doesn't listen.
	Well, I would guess they spend a lot of time together, not being close.
	And sorry, just remind me how your brother's life is going.
	He works a lot.
	As I told you before, he doesn't have a girlfriend or no, I think he doesn't have.
	He is mostly out of home.
	I mean, they live in the same house, but he doesn't live.
	He has his own apartment in the house, whatever.
	And he is working as a, you know, the, I don't know how to call it in English, but the like policeman, but not the normal policeman, but the special kind of one, you know.
	And he is also a referee, like basketball referee.
	So he's traveling a lot.
	So basically he's 30.
	He's going to be 31 this year.
	Yeah.
	But he's does he just not have a girlfriend now or has he never had a girlfriend?
	He had girlfriends, but I don't think he ever had a serious relationship.
	He would be with someone for a few months and then he would just break up.
	And he always told me, he told me that a lot of girls wanted to get married, especially in the few, and he doesn't want to get married and he doesn't want kids.
	But I don't think that he's even doing anything to change that or the struggles that I have about it, I don't think he has it.
	He just kind of what does he do for sexuality?
	I hate to ask this about your brother, but.
	Yeah, I don't know.
	I mean, I assume that he's just a pornography addict at this point then.
	I mean, if he's not having sex, right?
	He's not having sex.
	He doesn't have girlfriend.
	Yeah, maybe he has some kind of affairs that I don't know of.
	I don't know.
	I really don't know because we don't talk about it.
	But also it can be true that what you said.
	Yeah.
	Have you ever talked to him about his lack of dating or lack of relationship experience?
	Because he's almost out of time.
	I mean, it's almost done.
	Yeah.
	I don't just mean about kids.
	You know, I just mean like anyone.
	Because he's not going to be datable.
	He's not going to be able to have a relationship.
	Like there's only so many years you could be out of work before nobody's going to hire you at all.
	Yeah, you are so right.
	Well, I mean, you care about him, right?
	I do a lot.
	So then help me understand why this isn't a huge priority.
	I mean, your family's not working on it, but they're useless as tits on a bull.
	But what about you?
	You talk to him every day, you said.
	Yeah, about everything besides real stuff.
	Yeah.
	Okay, what did your brother think of Bob?
	I remember when I told him about smoking and not doing sports and stuff like that, he told me that we cannot have all or something like that.
	Even though he's also very much against smoking.
	I mean, obviously our parents are.
	You didn't ask your brother for relationship advice, did you?
	No.
	Because he's even more retarded than your parents when it comes to relationships.
	At least they had one.
	Yeah, yes.
	So he would be completely useless as someone to ask about relationships.
	Yeah, you are right.
	So him saying, well, you can't get everything.
	I mean, that's just sort of a pointless statement, right?
	That would be like some genius saying, you know, you can't fix a toaster and have a shower at the same time.
	I'm like, wow, really?
	Wow.
	Big brain, big brain.
	Yeah, he did.
	It was literally everything that he said, he didn't go deeply in the conversation.
	It's like he's feeling uncomfortable talking about it.
	I always got that feeling.
	Well, I mean, I know we've been talking for a long time.
	So I think what I would say is you just say you have a choice between the future and the past.
	You've got all these relationships that were gifted to you by grim circumstance, right?
	Right.
	You didn't earn these relationships.
	No.
	Right.
	They've just been gifted to you.
	Yes.
	Now, the choice that you have, of course, is you can say, well, I'm just going to stick with what I inherited.
	I'm not going to go out there in the free market and try and get better relationships.
	I'm just going to stick with what I happen to inherit with what I was gifted.
	It's easier, right?
	And it is.
	It's free.
	It's easier to, if you inherit money, it's easier than going out to earn it, right?
	Yes, yes.
	So you can choose to stick with what is familiar and it will become progressively more dissatisfying.
	I mean, at some point, I mean, I guarantee you this, man, at some point, maybe next year, maybe next month, maybe next in 10 years, you're going to be sitting around your family's dinner table and you're going to be like, this is terrible.
	What am I doing here?
	There's no future with these people.
	My brother is a dateless incel loser when it comes to relationships.
	My parents don't even like being in the same room.
	My sister, well, you know, maybe she's improving or maybe she's not even there, right?
	But you're going to look there.
	And I'm sure you had this with Bob, but you just look at him and you're like, suddenly he's just like a stranger.
	He's like, what am I doing here?
	What am I doing with this guy?
	Yes, I had a lot of these.
	Yeah, yeah.
	You just look at him and you're like, this is shameful almost.
	It's like, what am I doing here?
	I would wake up and I wish that I don't see him that day.
	Right, right.
	Or it's like, you know, it's like the people who play Dungeons and Dragons just a little bit too long.
	You know, it's like, well, I'm all kinds of tough facing an imaginary dragon, but I won't go talk to an actual girl, right?
	So at some point, it's like you got to move on.
	Now, my concern, of course, is that time is not on your side.
	Not at all.
	You're 30 years old.
	Are you closer to 31 or 30?
	No, I'm 29 right now.
	So in two months.
	My apologies.
	Okay, so you're two months into 30?
	Yeah, in June, yeah.
	Okay, so you're effectively 30 and you have to recover from a six-year relationship.
	Yes.
	Because you were married according to your body.
	Like your body doesn't know anything about pieces of paper, but you lived with a guy and you were married, right?
	Yes.
	So I tell you this, if Alexei comes along and he says, oh, you just broke up with your boyfriend a month ago of six years, what's he going to say?
	That I'm still, I don't know, damaged or.
	Well, not damaged, but you're still bonded.
	Affected by your heart is just not going to be available.
	Of course not.
	Yeah, right.
	Of course.
	And of course, you'll probably want to say, no, no, no, it was dead for a long time.
	It's over, you know, blah, blah, blah.
	But then, of course, Alexei is going to say, well, then why did you stay in a dead relationship for so long?
	You know, these kinds of things, right?
	There's just no escaping, right?
	That's a simple fact is you had a six and a half year relationship.
	And then if you're really honest with him, and I don't know if you would be, but, you know, if you were really honest with him, he'd say, oh, you cheated on him twice.
	Yep.
	It's not easy to get a job when you stole from your previous employer twice.
	So you don't have a lot of time to make decisions about the future versus the past.
	And it's really not fundamentally about children.
	I think the challenge that you have with children is you said when you visit friends with kids, you make up excuses to leave because you can't stand how much attention needs to be paid to the children, right?
	Yes.
	So that's a beautiful thing, man.
	I know for you, it probably feels bad, but children are so fun and so fascinating that they take you out of yourself.
	And you don't think about yourself all the time because you're focusing on bringing happiness and knowledge and fun to someone else.
	You know, I've obviously had my ups and downs and some occasional troubles in my career.
	It's pretty hard to worry about anything when you're chasing after your kid in a park.
	Yeah, I believe it is.
	They take you.
	I mean, for women, it's absolutely essential.
	Women are designed to worry about children.
	If they don't worry about children, they worry about everything else.
	But at least worrying about children has a future.
	Yeah.
	So you can't not be neurotic as a whole.
	And you can either be neurotic in pursuit of protecting children, which is exactly what being neurotic is designed for, which means it's healthy, right?
	Or you can worry about everything else.
	You can worry about how the city center goes.
	You can worry about your parents.
	You can worry about your brother.
	You can worry about whatever, right?
	Your career.
	You can worry about your future.
	So you can either worry about children, which is exactly what your worry is designed for and will bring you great happiness, or you could just worry about everything else.
	But at least you have authority, love, and some control with your children.
	You don't have authority, love, and control with really anything else in your life, right?
	Exactly, yeah.
	So it's not that you view paying attention to children as a negative, like it detracts from yourself, but it is a positive in that by focusing on other people, you get relief from your own concerns and you get joy by giving joy.
	Now, maybe you have friends who kind of ignore their kids and the kids are kind of in your face and like, but that's, that's just bad parenting as a whole.
	That's not kids, you know, qua kids, like in the nature of children.
	Yeah.
	I mean, you can listen to the show I did on Friday with my daughter.
	I mean, she had me half in tears with her jokes.
	I mean, she's just hilarious for me, right?
	And so the children just take you out of yourself.
	They give you something else to focus on.
	And it's a beautiful relief from the internal churn, debate, dialogue, whatever it is, right?
	That children are designed to cure us of self-obsession.
	Yeah, I never thought that way.
	I never been thinking that way.
	You cannot be unhappy pretending to be a monster and chasing your children across the room.
	You just can't be.
	It's physically impossible.
	You can't be unhappy pretending to be a horse and trying to throw your children onto the sofa from your back.
	You just can't be.
	You can't be unhappy trying to catch crayfish in a river with your children.
	Hmm.
	You can't be unhappy.
	You can't be unhappy watching your children master various things.
	My daughter is fantastic at racquet sports.
	You can't watch her be fantastic at things and not say to yourself with genuine joy, I kind of half made that.
	Good for me.
	And of course, you then get to live forever.
	I mean, your city center will turn to dust over time, but, or Lord knows, heaven forbid be bombed again, but your lineage goes on forever.
	I mean, it's been four billion years, and you and I are alive because of four billion years.
	There's no city that's going to ever last four billion years, right?
	Yeah, I mean, that's true.
	But you need to clean your nest, and you need to look at yourself from the outside in.
	You have to say to yourself, what does Alexei want?
	What does he want?
	Well, he wants a woman with good relationships because he does not want creepy in-laws around his children, right?
	Obviously.
	Right?
	So if you bring Alexei over to meet your parents or you tell him about your parents, then he looks for what's best for his children.
	And he may like you a lot and you are very smart.
	Listen, you're a wonderful person.
	You're smart, charming, funny, engaging.
	It's great, wonderful stuff.
	But Alexei, being a good father or a good father to be, is going to look at you and say, how are you going to be as a mother?
	And how, what environment are my children going to be in?
	Right?
	Yes.
	And he is not going to want them around your family.
	He's not going to want his kids to go over and have their grandparents not even talk to each other.
	And then you come in the room and your father walks out and I don't know, just all kinds of weirdness.
	To find love, you have to look at yourself from the outside in and say, if I did not have any history with the people in my life, are they in addition to someone else's?
	Because Alexei does not have any history with your sister, your brother, your parents, or other relatives or your friends.
	He doesn't have any history with them.
	So he's going to judge them according to the value they bring to your marriage and your children, his children.
	That's how he's going to judge you.
	Thank you.
	and IU, a good offering for his children.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Now, even if you don't want kids, and even if Alexei doesn't want kids, does he want to spend time with your parents?
	No.
	He is going to loathe your parents.
	Because the more he cares about you, my friend, the more he cares about you, the more he's going to dislike those who did you harm.
	If you have a lovely little baby girl and you hire a babysitter and you find out that the babysitter has screamed at and terrified your little girl, and then a friend of his hit your baby girl with a stick, would you, and you love your baby girl, would you also love the babysitter?
	No, no.
	No, you'd want to throw the babysitter out the window, right?
	Yeah.
	But that's how he's going to feel about your parents, because the more he loves you, the more he's going to dislike people who did you the greatest harm.
	Asking him to love you and your parents is asking him to have two hearts in complete opposition to each other, which is impossible.
	Yeah, I would be terror.
	Right.
	And recognize also that asking you to love yourself and also to be Stockholm syndrome attached to the people who did you the greatest harm when they haven't even apologized is asking the impossible.
	You cannot love yourself and be attached to people who did the greatest harm to you.
	Hmm.
	Yeah.
	And I'd like to see you have even better regard for yourself and not put up with dead-end relationships for six years with guys who lied right at the beginning.
	You can't afford that again, right?
	No, not at all.
	So you have to radically change everything.
	Otherwise, you're just going to get the same kind of outcome, right?
	Yes.
	And everything has to be on the table to change because you're almost 30.
	Everything has to be on the table because you get one more shot at this, right?
	You get one more shot.
	Yes.
	Right.
	So you're probably going to need some time.
	I don't know exactly how long.
	You're going to need some time to heal from Bob or learn the lessons or get over it, right?
	Because it's been two weeks, right?
	So it's not, it's completely understandable that you're not seeing things objectively, right?
	I mean, it makes sense, right?
	I don't know how tall the building is when my face is right up against it, right?
	So you've got one more shot.
	So you're going to take some time to heal from this.
	I don't know, whatever, right?
	And then you've got to meet a guy and you're going to have to start committing to a guy within the next year or so.
	Because 35, you have geriatric pregnancies.
	You've got to meet this guy, date this guy.
	I mean, let's just say you end up wanting kids, which, you know, we want kids when we meet the right guy.
	We don't want kids just in the abstract.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	That's, that's what I also thought maybe is the reason because if I didn't want kids at all, I guess I wouldn't even be thinking about it.
	Right.
	At the first place.
	So, I mean, you want kids because you want to see someone you love be a great father.
	Yes.
	And the kids are just a mechanism for that, at least at the beginning.
	So you got to meet a guy.
	You got to date a guy.
	He's got to be into you.
	You've got to have cleaned up your personal relationship so you have a clean nest.
	And then you can't afford to waste even six months with a guy who's not right because then you're going to be 32 and starting again with another scar on your heart.
	And then very quickly at some point, if you start getting into your mid-30s, Alexei is going to say, I want more than one or two children.
	And, you know, at 35, it's really starting to push it.
	I know.
	Yeah.
	So this is why I'm saying this is why I'm giving you this time and giving you this urgency.
	You do not have.
	I mean, mid-20s, maybe you could afford one more mistake.
	You cannot make any more mistakes when it comes to dating.
	I don't mean to stress you out.
	I'm actually really trying to help you because I'm giving you the tools, right?
	Like just be honest with everyone in your life.
	And someone asks you a question and you have to review everything in your life and say, okay, is this plus or minus for me?
	Forget other people's benefit.
	What about my benefit?
	And your parents should never have let you date Bob for six years.
	Never.
	In a million years.
	Your father, of course, and your mother should have sat down with Bob and say, okay, what the hell's going on?
	Bud, what is going on here?
	Why are you just dating my daughter?
	Is she not good enough to marry?
	What's going on?
	Oh, she doesn't want to marry me because I smoke.
	Then put the fucking cigarette out, idiot.
	Yeah, but instead my mom would go and smoke with him.
	Wow.
	Right.
	So he knew he had allies and could waste your time.
	And it's unconscionable for Bob to waste, you know, I don't know, to waste, you know, practically close to half your fertility window.
	Yes.
	That's terrible.
	Right.
	And you needed people around you to guard you and set the boundaries.
	So I'm really sorry that didn't happen.
	I really am.
	But there's time.
	There's time.
	But you just, you have to stop screwing around and get really serious about philosophy if you want a quality guy.
	And it can't be something you listen to and it can't be something you play with and it can't be something that's interesting.
	Oh, this is a crazy caller that Steph had and blah, blah, blah.
	Right.
	No, it has to be like, I do this for real, not theory, not books.
	I do it for real.
	I'm radically honest with the people in my life.
	And that's the only way I can get to love.
	Yeah, you are.
	You really helped me a lot.
	Good.
	Good.
	Is there anything else you wanted to mention?
	No, I think you really answered a lot of questions.
	And I cannot thank you enough.
	It was really, really nice of you to spend three hours on my problems.
	Yes, yes.
	I have no interest in smart people having babies.
	None.
	Just kidding.
	All right.
	Listen, will you keep me posted about how things are going?
	Yes.
	And I hope that I will have some good news in the next year.
	Good, good.
	Now, give me a pseudonym if you don't, like with your permission, right?
	With your permission.
	If anybody, I can tell you, like, if you're listeners, if you're listeners, this woman is super pretty.
	And very, no, I could see this guy picture.
	Other people can't.
	Don't worry.
	Right.
	Super pretty and athletic and obviously very, very smart.
	And, you know, by the time you hear this, she will have sorted things out completely in her relationships.
	If anybody wants to email me and get in touch with you, if they think that they might be a suitable partner, would that be of interest to you?
	Do you want me to forward anything?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	It would be very nice.
	Give me a pseudonym.
	I would go with Svetlana, but I'm probably entirely wrong about that.
	So give me a pseudonym so they can say, Steph, I listened to your podcast with and I would like to get in contact with her.
	What would you like them to use in the subject line?
	What name would you like them to use?
	Well, maybe Anna.
	Anna.
	That's my favorite.
	Nice palindrome.
	We're down with that.
	Okay.
	So if you'd like to be in contact with Anna and with Anna's permission, of course, which we've got here, you can just send me an email, host at freedomain.com, H-O-S-T, host at freedomaine.com, and I will vet her.
	I will vet for her and then forward them on.
	All right.
	Thanks, Anna.
	And I appreciate your conversation tonight.
	And please let me know how things are going moving forward.
	Thank you very much, Steph.
	You just really motivated me.
	And I cannot believe that I had a conversation with you.
	So thank you very much.
	My pleasure.
	Thanks, Emil.
	Bye-bye.

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