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June 6, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:13:23

My Poor Brother Was... CALL IN SHOW

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	My husband and I cut contact with my parents back on October 18, 2024.
	We've been mostly happy since, but I find myself debating if we should reopen communication.
	The main reasons we cut contact are my parents frequently disrespected and disregarded our parenting choices.
	For reference, we have a two-year-old son and another son due in June.
	They were hypercritical of us, especially my mother.
	They treat my sister and her husband much better than they treat me and my husband, always have, especially mom.
	And when we tried to bring our grievances to them, we were told we were wrong and told to apologize for even bringing up the past.
	My mother never apologizes for anything, and all of this has reminded me of a lot of past hurt.
	I realize I disagree with many of the things that my mother did throughout my life.
	As we were trying to work things out with them, even trying to set rules for the relationship, my sister, who should never have known any part of our discussion but was clearly told by my mother, blew up at my husband after he sent a text to the family sharing one of your podcasts, which was misinterpreted as an attack on my parents.
	My sister and her husband called my husband terrible names.
	Like that he is evil and cut contact with us without any prior warning.
	My parents responded by chastising my husband and I for the misinterpreted text, yet did not address my sister or brother-in-law in any way.
	This was the final straw for us choosing to cut contact with them.
	We've been pretty happy since.
	Even our son has been noticeably happier, but I'm starting to wonder if we should give them another chance.
	We've had other family members attempt to persuade us to give them chances, telling us they miss us and are now, quote, willing to do anything.
	Some have tried to guilt trip us by saying we're not being very Christ-like or forgiving, and we are a very religious Christian family, and quoting scriptures at us to prove us wrong, especially since my parents are now supposedly ready to repent and we are denying them.
	I'm starting to wonder if I am being a bad Christian and if this might hurt our son.
	Without my parents, he doesn't have a grandma and only has one grandpa who has medical issues.
	We know it is statistically better for children to have grandparents in their lives.
	I also do find myself missing them somewhat.
	I don't miss my sister at all, and I barely miss my mother, but I do miss my dad.
	He was not usually the one hurting me and was often away from home with work.
	Whenever Dad was around, my mother was on noticeably better behavior, being kinder and far less critical.
	Dad was usually just ignorant of what was going on, so a lot of our issues kind of blindsided him.
	Dad used to even agree with me in secret when we'd actually get time, just the two of us, and I'd complain to him about Mom, but always said that's just how she is.
	I have asked myself what I miss, and there is an honest part of me that misses what they provided us.
	I miss the gifts, the financial help, the service they would provide, and I really miss talking with, hugging, and having fun with my dad.
	But I'm struggling to truly weigh all the pros and cons, and if it's really worth it, to give them another chance.
	My counselor thinks we should.
	My husband does not at all.
	I'm very torn and being pregnant and hormonal is not helping and it's making me more sentimental and possibly clouding my judgment.
	I try to be a very rational, logical person, but there's always an emotional factor to things.
	It is so hard, though, when things come up to have no one to turn to or rely on.
	We are struggling a bit financially and I know my parents would help like they did before.
	But it was always begrudgingly and with complaints and specific requirements to repay them when my brother and sister get help for free.
	The double standards are awful, but I still love my parents and my family.
	I wish I could reopen communication with just my dad, maybe just for holidays, and test to see if they're sincerely sorry.
	I doubt I could ever trust them again, but it hurts to not have parents and to have my few other family members staying neutral or avoiding us or trying to convince us.
	I find myself wondering if we were set financially and if my father-in-law were healthy and or if I could find honorary grandparents whom I trusted for my son.
	Would I still want to reopen communication with my parents?
	Have they changed?
	Are they sorry?
	How forgiving should I be?
	Am I being a bad member of my church?
	Is it worth the time and energy to try to mend the relationship, even if only a little?
	If I reopen communication and they break our boundaries again, would I be able to cut contact again?
	It was already so difficult the first time just reaching the conviction needed to cut them off.
	I'm so unsure every choice feels bad or wrong in some way, but I miss them, and I want help and support that I can't exactly find anywhere else.
	I don't know that we're strong enough to face life virtually alone.
	That's one heck of a message, and I guess first and foremost, I'm incredibly sorry that this is the challenge in your life.
	It's a very difficult situation to go through.
	And, of course, you know, is it a test of integrity or forgiveness, right?
	I mean, is God sending you this to saying, listen, you've got to have boundaries with bad people, or is it like, no, no, no, I'm going to send you some bad people to test the virtue of forgiveness?
	Like, it's hard to know, right?
	And I really sympathize with that.
	So that's your side, and I, of course, appreciate that, and I'll just do my very best to give you some decent counsel.
	Thank you.
	Is your counsel a male or female?
	She's female, and she's supposed to be like a Christian counselor, but I don't know what denomination she is.
	A female counselor who counsels forgiveness, and a male who doesn't.
	Hmm.
	This is not the most uncommon configuration.
	Men have, you know, we certainly have our faults, to put it mildly, but sometimes an over-focus on forgiveness is something that is a little bit more on the female side than the male.
	That having been said, turning to your husband, what are your thoughts?
	My thoughts on getting back together with them?
	Is that what the question is?
	The whole situation.
	Okay.
	My thoughts are we went through a very stressful period this past summer.
	It was like two months.
	And I noticed my parenting suffered.
	I wasn't able to be fully there for my son.
	And I'm thinking in the future, if these unrepentant child abusers are still around and they haven't apologized and so on and so forth, what does that do to my parental credibility?
	I think that would be hard to say to my son, hey, you don't have to be around people you don't like when I'm around people I don't like.
	It's just kind of like the general gist of what I'm feeling.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	Well, let's talk childhood.
	Obviously, there's a lot of egregious stuff that's going on in adulthood, but what was going on in childhood for you that was challenging?
	I feel like there was a lot, and I didn't notice most of it until adulthood.
	But when I've been looking back, and especially going through it with my husband and with my counselor, I realized Dad was never really present.
	He was in the Navy most of my life.
	He only retired from the Navy when I was an adult.
	So obviously he would deploy a lot or get sent somewhere else.
	And we never moved with him.
	He would be gone for a year or two sometimes.
	So he was not around.
	It was mostly mom.
	And we lived with my mom's parents.
	And it often felt like she cared more about her parents and appearances and keeping the house clean and all that.
	My sister and I had a lot of sibling rivalry as well.
	We fought a lot, and usually our fights would end with my mom just saying, you're both wrong, you're both at fault, you're both going to get the same punishment, and not actually looking into what happened or who really started it or anything.
	My brother got to get out scot-free.
	He got to just stay in his room by himself.
	There were a lot of things in childhood that I would come and complain to her and say people at church are being mean or at school are being mean.
	And I usually got blown off and said that it was my own fault.
	But then if my sister had the same problem, she got pulled to be homeschooled or didn't have to go to the church group.
	There was a lot of double standards between myself and my sister.
	And I could get into specifics if you want, but that's just kind of the general.
	Specifics are good.
	Okay.
	If my sister and I had a fight, mom would pull my sister aside first every time, and they would go off into a private corner, and she would console her, and she would hear her side of the story, and I would be left crying by myself until they both came back after the fight.
	And mom decided she didn't want to hear my side of the story.
	She heard my sisters, and that was enough, and made her decision off of one side and said, both parties are wrong here.
	You're both going to get in timeout or lose a privilege or whatever punishment it was.
	Let's think of more specifics.
	Let me see.
	Um...
	I might need to look back at our letter that we sent them.
	I had mentioned when we were discussing with them, we sent them a letter with lots of grievances, and I really listed out a lot of things that had happened there.
	There were family members that we asked to not be around.
	It was one of my aunts and uncles and their kids, but because...
	Can we stop having them for holidays?
	They're mean.
	They're liars.
	They're calling us names.
	We were told to suck it up and get over it because they're family and family comes first.
	And since we were living with It's their grandparents' home, and they have every right to come see their grandparents.
	And these same family members ended up escalating that abuse past lying and name-calling.
	They would steal stuff and try to hurt us.
	And I found out as an adult that they sexually assaulted my brother and my sister.
	What?
	And I only got out because there wasn't a boy my age.
	Sorry, hang on.
	So, sorry, which relatives were these?
	This was our cousins.
	And you got the bad feels, the bad vibes, and it turns out that they were sexual predators who assaulted people.
	We weren't sure because we were so young.
	We didn't know to say, like, it was sexual or anything, but we were saying they're mean, we don't like them.
	It started out with just calling names, cheating at games, lying about things, hiding stuff.
	But it escalated into them stealing stuff, and even that was broke off.
	Share with your cousins.
	Oh, I'm sure they didn't take it.
	I'm sure you just lost it.
	I'm sure we'll find it.
	So then once it had escalated to what it was, my brother said he didn't know how to process it and didn't realize until he was an adult.
	And my sister said she, you know, just was too embarrassed, didn't want to tell anyone.
	And what did they do, though?
	They found out only a few years ago, when we were, you know, all adults.
	And at that point, they decided to confront my aunt, my aunt, and say, hey, turns out your eldest kids did this to two of my three kids, and maybe you should check in on your younger ones.
	Because she has nine children, and it was the oldest, like two or three, that would do this.
	And her youngest were still at home, and they were pretty young.
	And she said, you should check in with your younger ones, because if they're willing to do this to a cousin at a cousin's house, they might be willing to do things to siblings in their own home.
	Freaked out and blew up at them and called my parents and us liars and got contact with us.
	But what did they do?
	I heard...
	What did mom do?
	Sorry, I just was asking.
	I'm not sure when you say assault, sexual assault, I'm not sure what that refers to.
	My sister was touched in inappropriate places.
	While being mocked and called fat and pig and ugly and that nobody would want her, she was touched in inappropriate places.
	I think mostly the upper areas.
	My brother was fully...
	Was he like rapes?
	Yes.
	Like aurally, anally?
	Anally.
	Oh my God.
	Oh, so for years, your brother was raped.
	Yes, sir.
	And he didn't know how to say that to our parents.
	He says as an adult that they treated it like that game, like a doctor game.
	And I've been furious with them.
	I've been furious with them because I feel like we tried to tell them about it in the way that kids know.
	And, you know, they didn't fully realize that it was wrong.
	Sorry, who didn't fully realize it was wrong?
	My brother, you know, he didn't know what was happening until he was an adult.
	Sorry, hang on, hang on, hang on.
	Sorry.
	He didn't know what was happening.
	Because, you know, he was like five, and they're playing doctor, and it's normal between boys.
	But hang on.
	And I'm not disagreeing with you.
	I just want to make sure I understand the reasoning.
	So, if your brother didn't know, and obviously your brother was a victim, right?
	How old were the cousins?
	I think the oldest one was 12 at the time.
	Okay.
	So, your brother, total victim.
	Nothing but sympathy.
	But if he was not ashamed or didn't know that it was wrong, then I assume that this would be part of general conversation.
	Hey, how did you enjoy your time with your cousins?
	Oh, they put their penis up my butt.
	You would think.
	That's a good question.
	So he must, and I'm not obviously saying he knew it was wrong, but he knew he better keep it secret, right?
	Yeah, maybe they told him to keep it a secret.
	I'm not sure.
	Well, they might have threatened him.
	They might have.
	I mean, you tell this and I'll kill you.
	Because they're taking a huge risk.
	Yeah.
	All child rapists, and I know their children too, but older, obviously.
	All child rapists are taking a huge risk.
	So, with your cousins, the fact that they for years raped a helpless little boy.
	If the word had gotten out and the entire family would have been wrecked, the kids' reputations would have been wrecked.
	I mean, it would have been just a paroxysm in the entire community.
	The other children, and almost certainly they would have been done doing this at home, right?
	And so the other children would have been interviewed by Child Protective Services, and then the parents might have been charged with, I don't know, I mean, do you get charged with reckless child endangerment if your children are going on raping other children?
	I don't know, but it's not good.
	So they were taking a massive, massive risk, as all child rapists do.
	So how did they ensure that he was not going to tell?
	I'm not sure.
	Well, there's two ways that they, and I just know this because of my research for peaceful parenting, there's two ways that children or pedophiles, in this case it would be child pedophiles, but there are two ways in which those who abuse children, and in this case rape children, minimize their risk.
	The first, and this is very common, is they look for a child without a strong father.
	That makes sense, because he wasn't present much.
	Yeah.
	And so, if there is a father who's weak, and it's not a matter of being present or not, that's not the primary determinant.
	You can be not present, and you can still be a fierce protector of your children, but you have to have a good and close relationship with your children.
	In order to protect them from these kinds of vicious predators.
	In other words, your father has to notice a difference between a non-raped child and a raped child.
	There's a difference.
	My husband and I have actually talked about that when I was bringing this up with him, where he said, you've said that, where it's like, how can you not recognize your kids' change?
	And we tried asking my parents that.
	And I remember my dad had said that he noticed a difference, but that my mom blew it off, where he used to be able to go in and play with my brother and the cousins before they escalated to what they were doing.
	I used to be able to go in and play, and then they started.
	Closing the door and locking it and saying, we don't want adults in here.
	We want to play by ourselves.
	And when my father would try to press the issue and say, this is my house.
	We don't lock the doors.
	Let's keep this door open.
	My mother would shut him down and say, no, they're fine.
	Let the boys be boys.
	Let them play by themselves.
	Okay, hang on.
	So was it the 12-year-old, did he start raping your brother when he was 12?
	And then for a couple of years until he was like 15 or so?
	I'm trying to remember.
	I know my brother was younger.
	I get that your brother was five or so when it started, but was the rate from 9 to 12 or 12 to 15 or something different?
	It could have been 9 to 12. I'm not completely sure.
	Okay.
	I mean, because the big question is puberty, right?
	Yes.
	Because obviously with puberty, the genitals change.
	I mean, wouldn't this injure your brother?
	You would think.
	So, I mean, he can't walk well.
	He can't sit easily.
	And what on earth would 12 or 13-year-old boys want to be doing in a locked room with a 5-year-old?
	Nothing good.
	Well, I mean, that doesn't make any sense.
	Yeah.
	You're right.
	The more we look at it, the less sense it makes.
	Well, I mean, unfortunately, there are very ugly facts that have it make sense.
	Which is that your mother was enabling.
	Yeah.
	I felt she enabled it even before that, because she knew that my aunt was not a good person.
	And I blame my mother for letting this sort of thing happen.
	My mom used to joke about how my aunt, the mother of the rapist, would abuse her when they were kids.
	Not sexually, it was physical.
	it was she would try to beat her up and whatever, and would lock her in her room, lock her in the closet.
	And so my mother has told me many times, Because she would tell me straight up, now she has somebody else to bully.
	And it's like, how do you not think that a woman that you know is a bully, who bullied you, you know that she's bullying her children.
	How do you not think that those children might be bad to be around your own?
	Why would you have your bully and her kids over to your house?
	For like every holiday.
	And then ignore your own kids when they complain and say, hey, your bully's kids are not great.
	They might also be bullies.
	And just blow it off.
	And my thing is your aunt was not good company either.
	No, she was not.
	She was dreadful company.
	Now, you sound like two very nice people.
	And that's great.
	No, really.
	it's very thoughtful and caring.
	So I'm going to open up a particular cave door.
	I don't know if we should go in there or not.
	But you said your mother let it happen.
	It feels that way.
	Yeah, I don't agree with that.
	I don't think she let it happen.
	I think she made it happen.
	What do you mean?
	Well, she...
	Over her children's protests, she invites...
	Creepy, abusive boys over, and then, when your father says we don't lock the doors, she intervenes and makes sure the door stays locked.
	That's not letting something happen.
	That's making something happen.
	If I bring over a dog and lose it in my child's room, am I letting the dog bite, or am I making the dog bite?
	Yeah.
	And they also had a rule, no closed doors.
	They did.
	They had a rule, no locking your door.
	That was a big, big rule.
	No, it wasn't a big rule.
	If it was, your brother probably wouldn't have been raped, at least not as much.
	Yeah.
	So what on earth was your father doing?
	He's always enabled my mother.
	Yeah, he's been frequently emasculated.
	Yeah.
	He's been what?
	Emasculated, he said.
	We always joke, not joke, but we always say that my mother has my father's balls in her purse.
	I'm sorry if that was inappropriate.
	Oh, listen, we're talking about child rape here.
	The balls in the purse thing is the least of my concerns.
	I'm sorry.
	Honestly, don't worry about that.
	We've always said that.
	I want the theme, like, how does my dad let my mom walk all over him?
	And it's like, she has his balls in her purse.
	That's the best way to put it.
	Okay.
	Now, how does she emasculate him?
	In what way is he emasculated?
	I'm not disagreeing.
	I just want to know what the mechanics are.
	Right.
	Let me think of specifics.
	I mean, you know, anytime he would try to put his foot down about something, she would tell him off, tell him no.
	A specific example I can think of.
	So?
	Like, I don't understand.
	So there's, you know, there's lots of people who get mad about me in the world.
	I mean, just do your thing, right?
	My wife and I will disagree from time to time.
	We'll tell each other we don't think something's a good idea.
	We negotiate, you know, or whatever.
	Like, I don't know how someone telling you no is like, okay.
	Yeah, but that's how it was.
	No, no, no.
	But how?
	How?
	I'm not sure.
	There's just no negotiating with her.
	No, but who cares?
	You just unlocked...
	I won't swear.
	You just unlock the freaking door.
	Like, I don't know.
	What's the negotiation?
	We don't have locked doors in this house.
	So I'm going to unlock the door.
	And if your mom is like, no, no, no, let boys be boys.
	It's like, no, we have a rule.
	So I'm going to leave the doors unlocked.
	Doors open.
	I feel like she would normally kind of threaten him and be like, if you do that, you know, we're not going to have intimacy for a while.
	That was usually the threat that I heard.
	You heard your mother threatening to withhold sex from your father?
	She would joke about it, too.
	She thought it was hysterical.
	She thought it was so funny.
	I mean, what would she say?
	She would literally say, like, you better listen to me.
	I'm your wife.
	I'm the mom.
	I know what's best.
	You know, you better go along with it or you're going to be sleeping by yourself for a while.
	That sort of thing.
	So they're not Christians.
	Sorry, I thought you said they were Christians.
	They are, but they're not good Christians.
	Well, no, that's not even close.
	They're not super faithful.
	No, no, no.
	I'm no theologian, obviously, so correct me where I go astray.
	Who's supposed to be the head of the household?
	Do I have this wrong?
	The man?
	No.
	The man is supposed to be the head of the household.
	He is.
	So what is she doing saying, you've got to do it my way or else?
	Controlling.
	Well, but don't they go to the priest and don't they go to some Christian counselor who says, no, honey, you've got to submit.
	What are you doing?
	No, they're not part of counseling or anything.
	Okay, doesn't he pick up a Bible?
	I'm sorry, what's the point of calling yourself part of a belief system if you can just do the exact opposite for decades?
	I don't know.
	I guess appearances.
	Do you think, I mean, are they unaware of all the passages in the Bible that say that the wife is to the husband as the husband is to God?
	I guess they must be.
	I mean, we never read scriptures a whole lot.
	It was mostly just about going to church on Sunday and going to the E. Is it a female-centric church?
	No.
	Well, then why don't they talk about the woman's need to obey their husband if it's not female-centric?
	They bring it up.
	They bring it up at church.
	They do.
	Oh, fantastic.
	So then they were perfectly aware of the biblical injunction that the man is the head of the household.
	Yeah.
	But my mom always liked that, my big fat Greek wedding quote.
	Oh, yeah.
	The husband is the head.
	The wife turns the head.
	Blah, blah, blah.
	Yeah.
	She quotes that all the time.
	And it's like, you knew what she was really thinking.
	So, she's following the devil.
	That feels like a big jump, I don't know.
	Well, okay, so she knows the right thing to do, but she does the exact opposite.
	And she fails to protect her children, and she brings in abusers and locks her children for years.
	In with the rapists.
	Yeah.
	Or her son.
	And your sister, too, to some degree, right?
	Though not as bad.
	Yeah.
	My sister was never locked in, but it was always weird to me that That you know of.
	No, no.
	I'm serious.
	My sister and I normally shared a room, but when these cousins would come over, I would get to stay in the room with the girl cousins.
	And my sister would get kicked out into the living room with the younger boy cousins.
	And it was an open space.
	There was no doors, no way to lock it.
	But things still happened to her out in that open space.
	And I always wondered why she didn't sleep with the rest of the girls.
	If it's not demonic to invite rapists over and lock them for years in a room with your son, what would be, in your view?
	Like, where's your line?
	That's a pretty big line for me.
	Maybe you have a different one.
	No, I think I can agree with your line.
	So, if she's inviting rapists over to rape her son repeatedly and locking him in the room, how is that not as demonic as things could be?
	Now, she, of course, would say, well, but I didn't know.
	Yeah, that's exactly what she would say.
	Well...
	I didn't know.
	Your cousins, your family...
	Let me ask you this.
	Hang on.
	If you had a test to study for and you forgot about it and you failed the test and you said, well, I just didn't know.
	I didn't know the material, what would they say?
	You should have studied.
	It's your job to know.
	It's your job to know.
	We asked her about that.
	My husband has mentioned how you We asked them before, how did you not notice a change in my brother or my sister around that time?
	And my dad admitted, like, I noticed he got quieter and bottled things up and kept to himself.
	But I thought that was just him coming into his personality and him just growing up.
	I don't mean to criticize how you're talking to your parents because it's a very tough thing to do to confront parents with corruption.
	But the problem is that you think there's an out because you're giving them open-ended questions for which they can come up with.
	And this is why you're in a state of ambivalence.
	You're in a state of ambivalence because you're like, well, didn't you notice?
	No, I didn't notice.
	Or I noticed a little bit.
	I thought it was this.
	Well, did you know?
	No, I didn't know.
	Like, so they're always these outs.
	I'm not sure how else to approach it, though.
	Well, is there a defense for parents who invite rapists into a room?
	And lock that room with their child inside for years.
	Is there a defense?
	Is there any conceivable defense?
	No.
	So why are there these open-ended questions?
	like there's an answer.
	Thank you.
	It's your job to know.
	You stay close with your children.
	You ask them how things are going.
	You ask them if anything's wrong.
	I mean, your parents, right?
	Your kids are young.
	Or your child is young.
	Congratulations on the new one in the summer, by the way.
	Thank you.
	But it's your job to stay close to your kids.
	I mean, I've been a stay-at-home dad.
	My daughter is 16. And we always stay close and ask her how things are going.
	She spends time with friends.
	How did it go?
	Anything happen?
	Anything unusual?
	You stay close.
	And you keep track of the moods, and if there's things that are causing a change in mood, you ask questions until you find out what they are.
	Yeah, it's like, I've known my wife for roughly over five years.
	I can tell from 30 yards away what mood she's in.
	Yeah, you can read me like a book.
	And they've known their children their whole lives.
	And they still struggle to read us.
	What do you mean?
	You're right.
	They still struggle to read you.
	What do you mean?
	How do I put this?
	Seems like they're playing you perfectly.
	My father can never seem to guess what mood I'm in, and my mother can guess my mood, but not the reason.
	She tends to assume and put her own reason on it.
	Hang on, but hang on.
	How are you being played so well if people don't understand you?
	How are they able to massage these moods?
	How are they able to have you think about reconnecting with them when they remain unapologetic for letting your brother get raped for years?
	Or at least they don't take foundational responsibility as to how it came about.
	So, I mean, honestly, they have deep knowledge of you guys.
	They knew exactly how to set you and your sister at odds.
	Exactly.
	They knew which sibling to praise and which sibling to punish.
	They know exactly what excuses to make.
	They know exactly how to diffuse your anger.
	They know exactly when to play the victim, when to get aggressive.
	I mean, it seems to me that they read and know you guys down to the last dot.
	I mean, I'm not saying they're doing it benevolently, and I'm certainly not saying it's the same as genuine empathy.
	But it's like a con man.
	A con man has to know the weaknesses of his mark through and through.
	I mean, the rapists read your family perfectly.
	They read, hey, this is a trapped kid with no parental support.
	They'll lock us in there, they'll let us do our thing, and we will never get found out, because they'll never ask.
	And this kid will never tell.
	Yeah.
	Either because of direct threats or shame or just to...
	Yeah.
	You must have done something.
	Why are you doing these disgusting things?
	Yeah.
	Oh, my gosh.
	That your parents would have sided with the abusers.
	How could he think otherwise?
	When your parents invite these rapists over and put them in a room together and lock the door or allow the door to be locked against the rules that he's been told, all doors are open, no doors are locked.
	Well, except when the rapists are over, then we're locking you in with them.
	And he's supposed to go for protection from the people who are inviting open the rapists and throwing in a room and allowing the door to be locked?
	Um, I'm...
	I'm having a bit of a mind-blowing moment.
	Oh my goodness.
	They do.
	They play me like a fiddle.
	Yeah.
	Oh, they know you.
	And it's not even just mom and dad.
	It's the other people, too, who keep guilt-tripping us.
	Yeah, like great-aunt, uncle, everything.
	Who in the family knows about this rapes of your brother?
	Mom, dad, brother, sister, their spouses, me, my spouse.
	And then when we tried to confront the aunt about it, I don't think any other aunt or I think great aunt knows.
	But I think other than that it's been kept under wraps.
	What about your other aunt?
	They're not in biological aunt.
	Well, obviously she knew.
	just one that could contact and not biological on.
	No, the, I'm trying to figure out how to The one whose name is a flower.
	Yes.
	Got it.
	I don't think she knows.
	Okay.
	No.
	I don't think either aunt that's left.
	Yeah.
	Why don't people know?
	Because my brother and sister asked it to be kept quiet and kept under wraps, and they were too embarrassed to...
	Why were they embarrassed?
	They were too embarrassed.
	Thank you.
	My brother says he's still just trying to work through it himself.
	And so until he's in a good spot, he doesn't really want to share.
	But my sister said that it's always made her feel gross and inadequate and less than.
	And just made her feel like she was part of the guilty party.
	I also heard that another reason why is they don't want, if people hear about it when they meet them, that's going to be the first thing on their mind.
	True.
	You mean people in the family?
	Well, if it's only people in the family that knew, that wouldn't be their first impression.
	Yeah.
	Mm-hmm.
	Thank you.
	Well, my brother says he's still just trying to work through it, and my sister says that she's embarrassed and that it makes her feel like part of the guilty party.
	Okay.
	Because, I mean, that would be the answer.
	As to, you know, if you're not seeing your parents, you say, well, they locked my brother for years in a room with older boys who raped him.
	My brother's gotten mad at me for even saying that to him when he asked why we cut contact, and I said that I was mad about that and felt that mom and dad could have prevented it.
	He got mad at me.
	No, you're still talking about prevention!
	This isn't like the tide was coming in and they needed to build a protection around the kids and failed to do it.
	If I bring a rabid animal, I would even say this for me, if a man brings a rabid animal into his house and repeatedly locks his children in the room with the rabid animal, am I just failing to stop them from being beaten?
	Am I just letting it happen?
	I'm making it happen.
	Parents have a job they must vet.
	The people their children are exposed to.
	If there was some kid coughing up blood, and I said, absolutely, come over for a sleepover, would that be good parenting?
	No, sir.
	Yeah, you have to vet the people.
	You know this, right?
	I mean, your parents, you have to vet the people your children are in contact with.
	And you have to check with them, especially if you know, as your mother did, About the abusive nature of your aunt.
	Sorry.
	Who was the one who your mother referred to as abusive?
	No, you were correct.
	The aunt, okay.
	So when you know, and you openly state how abusive the parent is, the idea that you would lock your child into a room with the offspring of a woman you know Is demonic.
	Right?
	Yeah, and another thing to add on to the demonic thing is they didn't have to live in that house to take care of their parents, my wife's grandparents.
	Yeah, we didn't have to live with my grandparents.
	They did it because it was financially easier.
	And we've asked them about that, like why, if we were having trouble, You know, why couldn't we move out, get our own place so that we didn't have to see these cousins when they came to see the grandparents?
	Or why couldn't the grandparents just go to the cousins' house?
	Oh, because they didn't want to.
	They don't like travel.
	They're like three hours away.
	Well, why couldn't we move out and just not live with the grandparents?
	Man, your grandparents were also difficult to live with.
	They were so difficult to live with.
	And this is your mother's parents?
	Yeah, it's my mother's parents.
	Right, so they put their children, not just at risk, but they put their children in catastrophic danger for money.
	They put us in a lot of bad situations, yeah.
	No, but it's for money, right?
	Yeah, mainly.
	No, no, sorry, sorry.
	I don't want to, if I misunderstood something, please set me straight.
	I thought that they stayed with the grandparents to save money.
	That was the main reason.
	So they put their children in horrible danger, and in fact, the catastrophes unrolled about as badly as they could, in return for money.
	Yeah, pretty much.
	So when Jesus is offered the entire world and all that's in it in return for bowing down before Satan, and Jesus says, no, he was wrong because you should sell...
	your children's privates on the black market for the sake of a monthly rent.
	Hmm.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	That you should put your children in horrible danger for the sake of saving $1,500 a month in rent.
	I mean, obviously he wouldn't say that.
	Right.
	Right.
	So all they'll do is they'll claim ignorance.
	We didn't know.
	We thought it was fine.
	Of course, right?
	Yeah.
	But that's why there's no answer.
	There is no answer.
	So you keep asking these questions like there could be an answer.
	I see what you mean.
	And they want you to ask the questions that give them an out so they can avoid their own conscience.
	Right.
	There is no answer.
	If you, I mean, you have children, and I'm sorry to use this example, but if you have a babysitter and you find out when you come home that the babysitter has molested one of your children or both of your children, is there an answer?
	No.
	No.
	Let's say that he invited some friends over and let his friends take your children into a locked room and assault them.
	Sexually or otherwise, is there an answer?
	Well, why would you do that?
	Well, why didn't you notice?
	Why didn't you notice?
	I didn't know my friends were bad.
	I just thought they were having fun.
	Like, there's no answer!
	And even in that example, we'd partly blame ourselves for not vetting the babysitter better.
	Absolutely, for sure.
	And you'd have to learn a tough lesson.
	I'm absolutely sorry to use this example, horrible that it is, but I'm trying to shake off the moral fog regarding your parents.
	If we would blame ourselves even for a babysitter, why would I not do the same to my parents?
	Why are your children so worthy of protection, and why would you condemn anyone who harmed them, but you're on the fence with your parents?
	Why are your children so much more worthy of moral protection than you?
	Hmm.
	"You are as important as your children.
	You were as worthy and deserving of protection as your children.
	You needed as much love and care and protection as your children.
	do.
	Sure way.
	And you and I, well, we three, know for certain that if we had done something or ignored something or missed something.
	Or not had a close enough relationship that our children ended up being abused for years.
	I don't even know how I would get out of bed the next morning, let alone go around suddenly with my day and blithely answer questions.
	I didn't know!
	It's like a different creature.
	It's like an entirely different creature.
	It's like a human being.
	Yeah, I don't know how she rationalizes it away.
	I don't know how it doesn't eat her up.
	You would think that she would know.
	Well, Christianity, unfortunately, gives you the answer.
	Without massive, great, and deep repentance, do you get your soul back from the devil if you sell it?
	No, it takes immense repentance and usually time and trying to make...
	Right.
	So the reason why she doesn't feel bad is she would still be in the grip of very dark forces who will not allow her to feel bad because then she might change.
	It's just really hard to accept about your own mom, you know?
	But I have kind of felt that way.
	It's like, how do you say that about your own parent?
	What do you mean?
	I'm not disagreeing with you.
	I just want to make sure I understand what you mean.
	I have a lot of fear of becoming like my mom because it's like you don't want to say that your mom is an abuser because that means you were raised by an abuser and you might become like that since that was the example that you had.
	No, no, no, no, no.
	You become like that if you deny it.
	And you don't process it.
	Like if you say what she did was not abuse?
	Well, so if my father was a drinker, he wasn't, but let's say he was a drinker, and I said he was an alcoholic, like just a rampant alcoholic, and I said, nah, he just had a couple of drinks, he enjoyed socializing, is it more likely that I'm going to drink?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, because I want to have fun.
	I want to socialize.
	Whereas if I say, He was a rampant, destructive, and hell-bent alcoholic.
	Am I less likely to drink?
	Yeah, most likely.
	No, the accurate moral identification is the inoculation against the behavior.
	If we define something as evil, our conscience recoils against doing it.
	That's reassuring.
	Which is why your parents put it into the category of error.
	And not corruption.
	Hmm.
	Yeah.
	Thank you.
	Because we really can't be held accountable for things we didn't know.
	Which is why people who do evil things will always claim ignorance.
	Well, we didn't know.
	There was no evidence.
	I thought it was just his, what, personality coming into whatever your father said?
	It was some bizarre thing, but it's, it's, Yeah.
	So, no, saying that your mother was abusive is the best way to protect yourself against repeating the behavior.
	Once it's defined and categorized as evil, and look...
	I understand that your mother is not only evil, right?
	I get that, right?
	I'm not saying that she's like some bond villain, right?
	I'm sure that she has some redeeming qualities.
	I'm sure that she has, I mean, she has some playfulness.
	She has some affection, as you were saying.
	She may be generous with her money.
	Right.
	Right, because she could love-bomb you and then turn around and hurt you.
	That's camouflage, right?
	I mean, the predator you can see is not as dangerous as the one you can't, right?
	Right.
	So, but defining what your parents did, right?
	How were you guys disciplined as kids?
	When we were very young, we were spanked, and that stopped when we were usually around six, yeah.
	I remember you told me the story about that.
	Yeah, as we got older, she would stop spanking.
	Then it was usually either sit in timeout or lose privileges like lose electronics or Lose your weekend or as we got older and started driving, it was you're going to lose your car keys so you can't use the car.
	She didn't try to do that in your early 20s when we were dating.
	Yeah, when we were dating, she would threaten to take the car and stuff.
	But it was even...
	You make a mistake.
	oops, I spilled a drink.
	Instead of saying, you need to help me clean this up, You go sit in timeout while I clean this up.
	And then when I'm done, I'm going to come and tell you how horrible that was.
	Okay.
	So it never really matched up.
	But it was usually...
	No.
	Okay.
	And she'd sometimes try to do that whole, like, talk it out with the person you hurt, and let's both apologize and both say what we're feeling.
	But then there was still usually something else with it, like you had timeouts first before you got to talk.
	And were there raised voices or name-calling, or both?
	Your father?
	My dad did raised voices.
	My mom, she didn't usually raise voices, but there was definitely name-calling.
	And what names would she call her kids?
	Snot-nosed brats.
	You guys are spoiled snot-nosed brats.
	Ungrateful.
	Unappreciative.
	That was the most common one.
	Was you're spoiled snot-nosed brats.
	Boy, you just went all kinds of cold when you were talking about that.
	Sorry.
	Can you imagine saying that to your children?
	No.
	Or slap a smile off your face?
	Yeah, yeah.
	If she would threaten to hit you, like, I just want to smack that look off your face.
	If you, like, weren't.
	Looking like you were crying and looking sad and looking all penitent.
	If you tried to keep a straight face, she's like, I just want to smack that smug look off your face.
	Okay.
	And your father- I couldn't imagine saying that to my son and calling him a brat or spoiled or snot-nosed or anything like she did.
	And that's part of why I'm like, I don't want her to call him that.
	Have mentioned to her, I don't like you name-calling.
	She'd be like, I never called you names.
	And we'd give her those specifics.
	And she's like, it was a joke.
	It was funny.
	And I'm like, well, I don't want to risk you calling my son that if you think it's funny and not hurtful when I'm telling you that it's hurtful.
	So if you called her a defensive bitch and then you said I was just only joking, she'd be fine with that, right?
	No.
	No.
	Anytime we called her something, it was bad.
	Okay.
	And you said your father yelled?
	He used to when we were younger.
	And eventually we started crying and getting upset, and we would talk to him about it.
	And he actually did apologize and said, like, that was wrong of me, and I'm going to work on it.
	And he hasn't yelled in years.
	That's where I'm having trouble.
	Sorry, in years.
	How old were you when you last remember him yelling?
	Maybe eight.
	Okay, got it.
	So it's been like over a decade, you know.
	It's been a long time.
	Okay.
	But this is where the conflict is, is I know I don't want to be around my mother.
	I have a lot of...
	Thank you.
	But I struggle with my dad.
	And that's kind of more where I need to focus on, you know, do I let him back into our lives?
	Does your father know that his son was raped for years by people he let in the house and let them lock the door?
	Yes.
	And what has his response been to that?
	Remorse and guilt.
	He's told me that he should have fought more.
	He should have put his foot down about keeping the doors open.
	It seems like he does feel some guilt towards himself, but maybe won't admit it or won't pin it on my mom kind of thing.
	I'm not sure what that means.
	I'm not sure either.
	He does seem like he should have stepped up more.
	What do you mean stepped up more?
	Like he wished he had been more present and had been...
	What do you mean more?
	Like he did it 50%?
	He should have done it 100%?
	What does that mean?
	Doing what he should have been doing and acting.
	No, but you said more.
	The question is being connected.
	More what?
	I mean, he was 0% connected and 0% protective.
	Because his son got raped under his roof for years!
	What's this more?
	He didn't prevent any rapes.
	He invited the people in and locked his son in with them.
	And I've just used to get a shorthand for, because it's his house, right?
	So if the door gets locked, it's on him, right?
	So he invited people over and put him in a room, locked him.
	Like, what more?
	What is more that he should have done to protect his son?
	I mean, technically anything would have been more than nothing.
	Well, it's not nothing, Samagari.
	It's not nothing.
	He invited the kids in and locked his son in with them for years while his son was getting raped.
	Against his own rules of no-locked doors, he invited the kids in who raped your brother and molested your sister and left them alone.
	He created the situation.
	The kids are only there, despite you and your brother and your sister saying to your parents, these are bad kids, keep them away.
	Nope, they're coming in, and we're locking you up with them, or leaving you alone, at least your sister alone enough to get molested top and a little bottom, and your brother to get raped for years.
	Yes.
	Thank you.
	So you think they're both equally at blame?
	Oh, absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	A mother and a father, a husband and a wife are how many flesh?
	They're one.
	One flesh!
	And the father is the head of the household.
	Now, you can abdicate that role, but you can't abdicate your responsibility.
	Thank you.
	Your father, and I'm going to be coarse here, I apologize.
	Your father...
	I mean, yeah.
	Yeah.
	He served up his son to pedophiles so he could have sex with his wife.
	I mean, he allowed a lot of things just so he could have sex with his wife.
	He did not allow it.
	Allowing is passive.
	It's active.
	To call the people up.
	Hey, come on over.
	Bring the kids over.
	Go and play on your own.
	I'll lock the door or allow the door to be locked.
	That's not passive.
	Right?
	Passive is I forgot to lock the door.
	Someone broke in and beat me up.
	Right?
	That's passive.
	I allowed that to happen and left the door open.
	Right?
	Active is This guy who's a known criminal, I invited him into the house, showed him all my expensive stuff, said he was too chicken to steal from me, and then he beat me up and stole.
	That's active.
	That's the vampire.
	You've got to invite him in.
	They can't come in without your permission.
	He was warned repeatedly by all of his children.
	These are bad kids.
	We don't want them here.
	They're dangerous.
	And they still got to come over.
	And they still, they didn't get to come over.
	Your parents invited them over.
	I'm sorry.
	No, it's tough.
	It's tough because you want your parents to be victims because that's less unpleasant.
	They let it happen.
	They didn't notice.
	They were bystanders.
	They just forgot to lock the front door.
	No, it's not that.
	It's not that.
	Your mother knew that these boys had a toxic and abusive mother.
	Your parents were both warned by all their children how dangerous and bad these kids were.
	They kept inviting them over and putting them alone behind locked doors with your brother.
	That's not active.
	Sorry, that's not passive.
	That's entirely active.
	Which means it wouldn't be safe to bring either of them back into our lives.
	People heal from evil when they stop making excuses and never, ever before.
	If they minimize, if they gaslight, if they pretend that nothing happened, if it was a long time ago, we've got to move on, we've got to move past, it doesn't matter anymore, why do you keep bringing this up?
	I didn't know.
	If they minimize, gaslight, and refuse to The cure for evil is full responsibility.
	I don't know that they'd ever do that.
	I know Mom wouldn't, but I don't know that even Dad would.
	Well, your father thinks that his moral responsibility is somehow separate from his wife's, but this is the one-flesh argument, and it's very important.
	Your father dated, got engaged to, got married, and gave three children to your mother, and then kept those three children in her environment.
	He is entirely 100% responsible for everything your mother did.
	There's no separate moral responsibility between husband and wife.
	He can't blame her.
	He chose her.
	I chose him.
	She is an absolute reflection of his choice, and he continues to choose her.
	So he's staying married to a woman and still claims to love a woman who threatened him if he unlocked the door that would have saved his son from getting raped.
	Yeah, because for sake of argument, let's just say...
	Like, maybe, but he didn't do that.
	He didn't do that.
	He doubled down.
	Was your brother raped by more than one boy?
	Yes, there were two.
	Two, okay.
	How long does it take, right?
	And it's a grim thing to think about, right?
	But how long does it take to perform these kinds of actions, right?
	Well, you have to get the pants down.
	You have to, like, do all of this kind of stuff, right?
	Someone has to hold him down, all of this ugly, vicious, evil stuff.
	There has to be no sounds coming from within the room, right?
	Yeah, and their room is right next to mine.
	Their room is right next to mine.
	I mean, it's not like you're hearing giggling and hide-and-go-seek and tiddlywinks or Monopoly or like – Yeah.
	And those doors are, you know, hollow core.
	They were thin, yeah.
	So, you've got two older boys from a highly toxic and abused household going into a locked room with a child where things are dead silent for at least 20 minutes.
	And they share a wall with them, too.
	And nobody asks, what were you guys doing?
	Nobody says, hey, what are you doing in there with the boys?
	It was dead silent.
	How easy is it for a bunch of kids, particularly boys, to be dead silent for 20 minutes?
	That's so valid.
	That's hard for any little kid to be quiet that long.
	Well, yeah, I mean, 12-year-old, 10, 12-year-old boys are hellions.
	Loud as hell.
	I mean, I think sometimes we would ask them what they were doing, but the excuse was usually video games.
	But you're right.
	Maybe you should at least hear them jabbing each other and say, oh, I'm going to beat you or laughing when they win.
	Sorry, I'm a little confused.
	I mean, they weren't all wearing headphones, were they?
	No.
	So then you'd hear the video game.
	You should hear the video game.
	You'd hear the video games.
	You'd hear the trash talking.
	And how on earth are 12-year-olds supposed to play Video games with a five-year-old.
	Well, again, I think it started when they were nine.
	Sorry, nine.
	Okay, fine.
	It would have been like 12 and 8 by that point.
	Okay.
	But yeah.
	They don't generally play the same games with this that much of a gap.
	Not generally, no.
	And why would you need a locked door if you're playing video games?
	To keep out the younger siblings.
	No, I don't buy that for a moment.
	No, you'd hear the video game and boys trash talk each other like crazy.
	I mean, I'm around some teenage boys because of my daughter.
	I'm around some teenage boys.
	They're loud.
	And they're yelling at each other all the time, particularly when they play games.
	It's actually quite funny.
	Yeah, very true.
	It's not dead silence for 20 minutes to half an hour when you've got a bunch of kids in the next room.
	I can hear my brain still making excuses.
	No, no, let's hear them.
	I mean, we want to be fair, right?
	Well, there were, you know, at this point, if there's nine cousins, there's 12 or 13 kids running around that house.
	That's only three of them in the back.
	All the others were running around, making ruckus, making noise.
	We were busy cooking the meals or talking in the family room while they were in the back.
	How are we supposed to notice that it was quiet for a little bit when everybody else is being loud and rambunctious?
	Well, roughly how often were they over?
	Hang on.
	Roughly how often were they over?
	Every holiday.
	I think it was only birthdays.
	Like birthdays and stuff, like half a dozen, eight, ten times a year?
	Not for their birthdays, but for ours, yes.
	Three kids, three birthdays, right?
	Christmas, Easter.
	Yeah, Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving.
	Fourth of July, usually.
	No, not usually those.
	But it was at least a half a dozen times a year, sometimes more.
	All right.
	Like you had said, though, we came to them and said, it's not fair.
	The door's locked.
	We want to play in there, too.
	Well, I mean, so if it was once, you could say, well, there was a lot of chaos.
	But, you know, let's say over four years, you know, six times a year, that's 24 times.
	They're saying the whole 24 times.
	There was no evidence.
	They couldn't know anything.
	That is important.
	They usually checked on us.
	Well, if they chose not to parents, that's on them too.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Mm.
	you Thank you.
	Come on.
	Some kid wants to go and Come on.
	It's not brain surgery.
	There's a reason.
	And your dad had that rule.
	Why did your dad have that rule?
	Because he knew that bad things happened behind locked doors.
	And how did you know that?
	It's just what he always told us.
	It was always the excuse.
	Bad things happen behind locked doors.
	Okay, so he must have had some experience or knowledge of that.
	Somewhere.
	Yeah, something.
	When we were dating, we couldn't have a closed door.
	Yeah, we couldn't be behind a closed door at all.
	reason for chastity and all that.
	Right.
	No, I'm okay, I understand that, but your father must have had some For him to have that rule.
	He would have some sort of knowledge or something.
	Right.
	So because he knows bad things happen behind closed doors, locked doors, if he knows that bad things happen behind locked doors, then he has an absolute responsibility to make sure nothing bad is happening behind a locked door in his house.
	He knows that.
	That's why he has the rule.
	If I say pit bulls are dangerous and I let my kids play with pit bulls six times a year, That's on me.
	That's on you, yeah.
	Yeah, he really did think that sleeping with mom was more important.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Which means that he'll probably say sleeping with mom is more important than seeing us or following our rules or treating him right.
	Yeah, I'm also thinking if you were to divorce your mom, he would lose everything.
	Yeah, he would lose everything if he divorced her.
	Sorry, what do you mean?
	Morals.
	Yeah, that's true.
	If he divorced mom, he might lose financially, but he would get to keep his morals.
	Well, I'm not sure that there's much point being a Christian if you're like, well, I have to put financial considerations above virtue.
	Which has always been the problem.
	We were talking about that earlier, about why did they stay at the grandparents' house.
	Oh, gosh.
	Yeah, even your aunt...
	The hoarder.
	Even her She was going to take care of Your grandparents And your parents were like No we're going to step in And take care of Well, and why did we have to live with them to take care of them?
	Yeah, they could have got a cheap house nearby.
	Mm-hmm.
	Mm-hmm.
	But I have been afraid if we reopen communication with my dad, it's like he might try to pull something or mom try to come over with him.
	This is all feeling like it's really not worth it.
	It's not a good idea.
	And plus the amount of stress that would come from trying to resolve this, especially when you're pregnant.
	Yeah.
	The Jews ain't worth the squeeze.
	Yeah.
	Because, I mean, it takes a long time for people to even repent when they are repentant, but if they're not repentant, you can't change them.
	So generally, I'm just talking as far as the self-knowledge that I sort of work with, the repentance becomes generally psychologically impossible when restitution becomes impossible.
	Right, so, I mean, to take a sort of severe example, if a guy, you know, borrows his sister's car, puts a ding in it, right, some dent or whatever, and then he's like, oh, I'll pay to get the dent fixed and, you know, here's $100 to go out for dinner for your trouble or whatever, then she's like, okay, that's fine.
	Like, it balances out.
	She's not thrilled it happened, but she doesn't mind that it happened.
	It's evened out.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes.
	If somebody steals $500 from you and then gives you back $700, Because he feels bad, and, you know, then you're like, okay, I'm not thrilled he took it, but it's kind of evened out.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	I mean, it's like if you fill in a pothole, you don't want to leave the giant pothole, but you also don't want to create a big hump.
	You just got to even it out, right?
	Then things even out.
	Now, if a brother borrows his sister car, and then when he returns it, drives over her beloved dog, is there any restitution possible?
	I mean, he could try to get her a new dog.
	Okay, and that's something.
	What if he drives over her kid and kills her?
	Clearly, there's no restitution that's possible.
	Now, the fact that there's no restitution that's possible doesn't mean that the relationship is necessarily over.
	it just means that there's an acceptance that this can't be made right.
	But if it can't be made right, And why have a relationship?
	Well, yeah.
	So, I mean, he can't make the dog whole.
	He can't, right?
	And let's say when he returned the car, he was drunk.
	And he promised not to drink and drive.
	So now he's at fault and he ran over her dog.
	Or her kid.
	Or something like that.
	Like just some terrible, terrible thing.
	So now he's at fault, and...
	Well, that becomes tough.
	So the reason why we generally monitor what we do and make sure we don't commit great sins is because when restitution becomes impossible the relationship generally crumbles.
	Right.
	So the question is Let me ask you this with regards to your brother.
	Now, I know he's not on the call, but let's just theorize for a second here.
	Okay.
	What restitution would make your brother okay with having been raped for years as a child?
	Make him okay?
	Like, just make him feel better?
	No, no.
	Make him like, I'm okay that it happened.
	I don't love that it happened.
	I don't hate that it happened.
	I'm okay with it.
	I don't know that there is anything.
	No, there's none.
	No, there's no restitution.
	There's no restitution.
	I mean, his bodily integrity was cruelly violated, he was isolated, he was given a great burden of shame, secrecy, silence, and most likely, death threats.
	And had to live in constant fear, and knowing that his parents would lock him in the room with his abuses the next time they came over.
	There's no, no restitution for that.
	They could give him Ten million dollars.
	It would not make it okay.
	It would not undo the damage.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes, sir.
	So there is no restitution possible.
	Let me ask you this.
	What restitution would be enough to make you okay with what happened to you and your siblings in your childhood?
	Hmm...
	Thank you.
	I don't know.
	I had convinced myself before this that, like, an apology and a promise to not do it again and maybe them getting counseling.
	Well, that might help the future and probably would.
	But what would make you okay with the past?
	Again, if I borrow your car and I ding the car and I get it fixed and I buy you dinner out or whatever, then you're like, okay, I don't love that you ding the car.
	I don't hate it.
	It's acceptable.
	It's even steeper, right?
	I feel like I don't have a good answer for this because I feel like I've always been kind of too forgiving and never really taken a lot of restitution and just, they said they were sorry and they won't do it again, so that's enough.
	And I'm trying to come out of that mentality and to...
	Sorry, I'm on your side.
	So, if you say, I'm too forgiving, that's saying that you have a fault or a flaw.
	I don't believe that for a second.
	I do believe that if you had demanded genuine apologies and restitution, you would have been attacked and ostracized.
	So, you had no choice but to, quote, forgive.
	Yeah, pretty much.
	When we've demanded that, we got gaslit.
	Yeah, when we demanded true heartfelt apology that was more than just, "I'm sorry your feelings were hurt." Yeah, we were gaslit.
	They even said that.
	That was the one apology.
	The one apology that we got was, we're sorry for anything we may have done.
	Oh yeah, absolutely.
	And it's the other thing, it's like, well, we have no idea what we did wrong, but obviously you're so crazy and oversensitive, we'll just apologize to pacify you.
	Yeah.
	If something I said purely innocently upset you, I guess I'm sorry.
	But that's where I'm like, I know I don't have a good answer for what restitution is acceptable for me.
	Let's turn to your husband.
	Let's turn to your husband.
	So, you love your wife, obviously.
	She's a lovely woman.
	So, you love your wife.
	How much money would your in-laws have to give you in order for you to be okay with how they treated her and her siblings when they were kids?
	There is no dollar amount.
	There's no dollar amount, right?
	There's no dollar amount.
	It's like, how could I love my wife and then pal around with them?
	Who has done her the most harm?
	Come on, a beach house.
	Nice beach house.
	Cape Cod.
	Overlook at the ocean.
	As tempting as that is.
	Come on, man.
	Be for sale.
	Put your soul up on the auction block.
	Come on, man.
	Don't make me do a bidding war.
	Okay, okay.
	A nice beachfront property.
	And a Cybertruck.
	Come on.
	Those lines look good, though.
	They do look good.
	As my daughter says, it looks like something that you should hide raccoons in.
	No, I mean, there's no amount of money.
	Well, restitution isn't always about money.
	No, no, I get that.
	I get that, for sure.
	But it's a good way to categorize something.
	Because what else is it supposed to be?
	Because if they're genuinely sorry and go to therapy, that doesn't undo the past.
	If I put a ding in your car and I go and get it fixed, at least your car has returned to its original state.
	There is no original state for you.
	There is no undoing your childhood.
	There's no you with a good childhood.
	There's no you with a good sister.
	There's no you.
	I mean, how much older than your brother are you?
	Let's see.
	My brother is about two years older than me, and my sister is about two years younger than me.
	Okay, sorry about that.
	So your brother's a little older.
	And did you, of course you'd be three, so you wouldn't really notice that much, but did you get the sense when you got older, when you were still in your, say, early to mid-teens, and your brother was older, of course, did you get a sense of the burden he was carrying?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I always wondered why he was so quiet and kept to himself and always seemed to bottle things up and then explode.
	Has your brother had trouble with girls?
	Like talking to them?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, because he feels like damaged goods.
	And anger management, too.
	He has this little dog that he yells at.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	So he's...
	And how did you find out about what happened to him when he was five?
	He told us a few years back when he himself had started his career and he decided to start getting counseling for his anger.
	And that led to him, you know, I don't know if it was led to him remembering what happened or led to him kind of.
	I'm not sure the word.
	But that was when he, I guess, accepted to tell the family.
	And he just sat us all down and told us.
	Were you ever close with him?
	Not for a long time.
	Not until his last year of high school and my first year of high school.
	We went to the same high school for that one year.
	And he would drive us, and we got a little bit close, and then we ended up going to the same college.
	And we got really close in college, because we would talk in the car, just the two of us.
	But I guess we weren't that close, because I didn't know about, he wouldn't talk about anything negative.
	Yeah, and I always found it pretty difficult to talk to him.
	Yeah, he doesn't like talking about himself, but he listened to me a lot.
	Now I feel kind of bad.
	It was always me talking, mostly.
	But we had gotten close in just the having fun together sense.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Oh, I just said which we hadn't had when we were younger.
	Now, you got a lot of, sounds like you had a lot of anger and frustration towards your sister.
	That's an understatement.
	Yeah.
	So, do you view your sister as an independent moral agent, or do you view her as subject to intense manipulations by very corrupt parents?
	It started as the latter and has turned into both.
	Okay.
	As a kid?
	Right.
	She was favorited.
	You said, oh, she gets, even as an adult, she gets the money, she gets the excuses.
	You both have to get punished when she does bad things and all that, right?
	So, I mean, you know that favoritism is just a way to ensure the children don't form alliances.
	So they get your brother traumatized, so he's in his shell and can't connect with anyone.
	And then they favorite your sister to turn you against your sister, so none of the kids can form any alliances or give each other comfort.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So that's a ploy.
	That's a parental ploy, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	Now, when did it transition to, she's now a moral agent, independent of all of that, and you could be mad at her?
	I think, pretty much early 20s, yeah.
	Once it was like, she's firmly an adult.
	She's been an adult for a few years.
	She's done her schooling.
	She has her career.
	Did she try to punch you that?
	Yeah, it was really once she was starting to have time away from my mother and outside of the house and becoming an adult, becoming an individual in that way, that I started saying, well, she's choosing to continue to treat me this way.
	Because she would do a big apology and then a week or two would go by and then she would make you cry again.
	Yeah.
	And what was she doing that made you cry?
	Various things.
	I'm trying to think of specifics.
	When we were younger, it was the typical fights of, let me use your stuff, let me use your toys, borrow your clothes, whatever.
	But that's only typical in dysfunctional households.
	No, listen, I have friends.
	I got friends.
	And the three boys are fantastic with each other.
	I mean, we've spent entire days with them.
	They help each other.
	They encourage each other.
	There's no particular conflict.
	And they share well.
	And I've got other friends who've got multiple kids.
	I've got one friend who's got like eight children.
	They all get along famously.
	So that's only typical in dysfunctional households.
	And I'm not saying that siblings never have any conflicts.
	Of course they do.
	But in general, right, I mean, siblings are kind of designed to We would evolve to help each other, right?
	Yeah.
	Let me think.
	As an adult, what did she do that was different than when we were kids?
	That felt separate.
	I mean, she definitely mocked anyone I was dating.
	Not in front of their faces.
	But anytime I was dating someone, she would criticize them and make fun of them.
	She would call me names and make fun of me.
	Like what names?
	I was ugly and fat, even though she was usually bigger than me.
	She would say I was ugly and I was fat, and she would borrow my clothes and say they looked better on her than me.
	If I was dating someone, if he was very attractive, she would say, he's too good for you.
	Or like, he's hot, why is he going out with you?
	If he was unattractive, then it was...
	So she's really sadistic that way.
	She takes a lot after my mom.
	Right.
	Okay.
	How's her life going in general?
	From the outside, you would think it's going well.
	She is married.
	She's been married for a couple of years.
	They have their own apartment.
	They don't have plans for kids.
	She's been really wishy-washy on if they want kids or not.
	But from the outside, you would think that she's pretty content.
	Some of the stuff I've heard, I have doubts.
	I remember right before they got married, they were in some Walmart parking lot, and she said, I don't think I love you anymore.
	Yeah, I have doubts about their relationship, actually.
	Well, that's just a control thing she gets from your mom.
	You don't have to sleep on the couch.
	I don't love you anymore.
	Do what I want.
	Dance, monkey dance, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Okay.
	She is over at my mother's house a lot.
	They spend a lot of time together.
	So she's got a weak husband.
	Oh, yeah.
	Oh, yeah.
	My mom loves her husband.
	Right.
	Can't imagine why.
	Not a fan of me, though.
	Right.
	No, of course not.
	Of course not.
	Okay.
	My mother hates...
	She tried to split us up.
	Well, okay, but let's be, sorry to be, I'm not trying to diminish anything you're saying, but it's not personal.
	She doesn't hate your husband.
	She hates anyone who stands up to her.
	Yeah.
	Who she can't directly control.
	She can't make you sleep on the couch, right?
	Yeah.
	Can't kick you out.
	Yeah, it's like I remember...
	I recognized pretty quickly how she would crap all over him.
	Hey, what did your dad do?
	Your mom treats him like that.
	And she's like, well, there was that time.
	He had an affair.
	Yeah, in Haiti.
	Had an affair?
	Yeah, I told you.
	Shortly after they were married?
	No, no, no, no.
	This was very late in their marriage.
	This was, I think I was in college.
	When it happened.
	Right.
	Well, I mean, I'm sure that the details...
	It's a pretty funny but bitter meme.
	It's like a surprised Pikachu face.
	And it's like women finding out that their husband had an affair when they haven't had sex with them for three years.
	Literally.
	Literally.
	That's how I felt.
	That's how I felt.
	Yeah, I mean, you can only threaten to withhold sex for so long before your husband's like, He was off with the Navy again and he was in somewhere else for like a year.
	And obviously we didn't go with him again because we never did.
	It was a dangerous place.
	It was a dangerous place.
	And he missed my mom and my mom never took us to visit him.
	She would visit him by herself.
	And he found somebody that was nice to him and gave him compliments, which my mother never gives.
	And was calling him sweet things, which my mother never does.
	And, yeah, I wasn't surprised, honestly, that he tried sleeping with another woman.
	And they stayed together after that, which is the most surprising thing.
	Your parents, you mean?
	Sorry?
	Sorry, your parents, not your father and his mistress?
	Yeah, my parents.
	Sorry.
	Right.
	My father confessed to my mother and went through a repentance process with her, and she decided to stay married to him.
	And they're trying to keep it secret.
	They've been trying to keep it secret, yeah.
	They were going to keep it between just the two of them and my mother's father.
	So between the three of them, with somebody who, I don't know if he should have known, they were going to keep it from all three of us kids.
	We only found out because I was eavesdropping.
	Was your mother more upset that your father had an affair or that her son was raped?
	Affair.
	Okay.
	Priorities.
	She was more angry at the affair.
	She was more sad and crying at what happened to my brother.
	Right.
	But I think the affair was worse.
	For her.
	Obviously not morally, but for her.
	No, no, no.
	I'm just trying to think of her reaction and how much she was upset afterwards.
	Right.
	I mean, it's interesting how your father says, well, that's just how your mother is, right?
	Yeah.
	You just have to accept people for who they are, right?
	I've had other people say that about her, too.
	And does your mother say that about other people?
	or you have to accept me for who I am, or there's some sort of, like, does she say that about Is there this general, well, that's just who that person is.
	That's just so-and-so being so-and-so.
	Yeah, that's just how they are.
	Right.
	Except for her own kids, who are held to a higher standard.
	Well, I mean, isn't your husband just who he is?
	Why is she so mad?
	She doesn't accept him for, hey, that's just who he is.
	But it was even, that's just how my sister is.
	But that's not just how I am.
	I'm better than that.
	Oh, tell me what you mean.
	Oh, you know, if you get in a fight and you get upset because, oh, my sister keeps trying to take my stuff and keeps bothering me and I'm trying to do homework and she keeps coming in to mess with me on purpose.
	Oh, that's just how your sister is.
	She just wants attention.
	She just misses you.
	Oh, but if you do something wrong, then it kind of breaks, right?
	I do something wrong.
	How I am is I should be better than that.
	Now, do you know what the differentiating characteristic is?
	Do you know why people are divided into these two categories of those you just have to accept and those you have to nag?
	Hmm...
	It seems like it's just people who go along with her and get on her good side or not.
	No, it's not that.
	The difference is people who have a conscience.
	The people who have a conscience.
	Yeah, so it's a lot easier to correct people who are self-critical than people who will escalate and be aggressive if you criticize them.
	How does your sister handle criticism?
	My sister is the latter.
	Yeah, it's got nothing to do with higher standards or lower standards.
	It's like, you're self-critical, which is a good thing in life unless you're surrounded by cold-hearted manipulators, in which case you're doomed, right?
	Because they'll just keep hammering those buttons to control you.
	So, you're self-critical, and your sister is not.
	And so, when it comes to conflict, they will appease your sister, and they will criticize you, because you won't explode.
	Yep, pretty much.
	So your virtues then become that which is used to...
	Yeah.
	Yeah, so just so you know, that's the difference, right?
	How does your father handle criticism?
	Better.
	Much better.
	He usually will apologize and look at himself and try to fix it.
	And so it's like, even the thing you were just describing, he got similar treatment to me and my husband.
	Right, right.
	Because, you know, obviously...
	Yeah, I mean, bullies need...
	Like, you just can't do it.
	Because they'll just use it against you.
	They will.
	They'll just absolutely use it.
	It's like going into a horrible conflict with a criminal knowing that he's going to take your gun, he's going to use it against you.
	Like, you just can't go in.
	Yeah.
	Because people who are self-critical will generally, me, I mean – But it's like, I assume that I'm at fault.
	And that's a great power in life because it means I can genuinely course correct and listen and fix things.
	But I can't be around people who are just going to automatically blame me because then I have to really untangle that from my own self-critical aspect.
	If I'm around people who are fair and, you know, well, you did this right, but this could have been This was good, though?
	Like, that's reasonable.
	But if I'm just around people who are like, well, you're to blame, right?
	Well, I'm going to take a lot of responsibility for myself.
	I just can't be around bullies.
	Because they just, they take what is actually a virtue, which is to be self-critical and to want to improve, and they just use it to control others.
	And that's not, I mean, I just can't be around that.
	Right.
	That's where I'm glad that, like, I don't really miss my sister or my mom.
	Because I don't.
	want to put myself back around that because they definitely do that.
	Well, I mean...
	But again, it feels like Sorry.
	But as long as your father keeps choosing to be around them, that's his choice, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, that's his priorities, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, who's worse?
	The bully?
	Or the enabler and the appeaser who fuels the bully?
	That means they're two sides of the same coin.
	Now, one looks more like a victim.
	I get that.
	But they're not.
	He does look a lot like a victim.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	He probably plays that violin all the way up and down the cat string, right?
	Oh, yeah.
	But what if he is kind of a victim?
	He chose to be in that situation.
	Sorry, let's hear the case, right?
	I'm happy to hear the case.
	Well, maybe not happy.
	It's not the right word.
	I'm eager to hear the case as to how your father's I think he's like early 50s.
	Early 50s.
	I remember that seemed kind of old.
	Anyway, so, okay, so your father's past the half a century, and, you know, he's...
	So, you know, man knows something about discipline and hierarchy and all of that.
	So, how is this half-century plus seasoned warrior a victim?
	Now, give me the steel man case.
	How is he evicted?
	I...
	Hmm.
	I'd love to hear you sing one day.
	These trills are lovely.
	But anyway, go ahead.
	I'm sorry.
	No, no, don't apologize.
	It's lovely.
	I wish I could trill like that.
	That's all I'd do for a living.
	I wish, man.
	That would be so fun.
	Okay, so it feels like he's got that physical kind of discipline, right, and the physical strength.
	But me knowing my mom and knowing that she gaslights and is manipulative and tries to be very controlling, I know that I've fallen prey to that.
	And so I can see where it would be easy and likely, if possible, whatever, for somebody else to fall prey to that, especially when.
	Oh, no.
	Oh, God.
	I didn't.
	Sorry.
	You're equating your father with your mother's child?
	No.
	Yeah, you kind of are.
	You're right.
	Oh, my gosh.
	Oh, you're going to kick yourself later, but don't.
	I'm just saying you're going to have that urge.
	Because he was an adult when I was a kid.
	Oh, my gosh.
	That's a good point.
	So he's like a retarded sibling?
	No.
	I'm trying to figure out what category he's falling into here.
	I mean, anybody could fall for manipulation and emotional abuse, but he was.
	I'm already an adult, and I was a kid.
	Hang on, hang on, hang on.
	Anybody can fall for manipulation.
	Okay, have you seen pictures of your mother when she was younger?
	Was she, like, hot to trot?
	Was she a good-looking woman?
	Oh, yeah.
	Oh, yeah, she brags about it.
	Okay, so he fell prey to the sin of lust.
	Most likely.
	Okay, so, you know, he was hot to trot, she was attractive, and he's like, okay.
	So he judged the flesh, not the spirit.
	It does feel that way a lot.
	Even when he would talk about their marriage story, he always said, like, we dated too quickly.
	I wish we had dated longer.
	She rushed the engagement question and he accepted.
	And she was, you know, he told me she was all over him.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Yeah, when they were dating, she was all over him and she was talking about how she couldn't wait to get him in bed.
	Oh, that's so gross to hear from your parents, by the by.
	Like, please, God.
	I mean, I'm cringing and they're not even my parents.
	I heard so many gross things when I was younger.
	It was not fun.
	So he got sex bombed, he got love bombed, he got pushed along so that he didn't see any red flags.
	In less than a year, she was like, oh, you're about to go on a deployment.
	You need to fish or cut bait.
	Either get engaged or break up with me because I don't want to date a deployed man.
	And it's like, why are you dating a Navy man?
	Why did you date a Navy man then?
	But he said, all right, let's get engaged.
	And then they got married, I think, when he came back from that deployment.
	It was relatively quick, depending on.
	By today's standards.
	I have no problem with the speed.
	I mean, my wife and I met and got married within 11 months, so that's fine.
	So he did not judge the qualities of her character, but rather the jiggle of her characters or whatever, right?
	Sorry about that.
	My apologies.
	These were your feedbacks.
	I apologize for bringing them into the conversation.
	I was just trying to...
	Other times I traumatize the listeners.
	Sorry about that.
	But he did not judge the quality of her character.
	He just judged her flesh and her form.
	And they sinned, right?
	They had a lot of sex before marriage, right?
	No, they did not.
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	I thought that she was all over him.
	Yeah, she was all over him.
	She made him think that they were going to.
	But he said they never actually broke the law of chastity.
	Actually, she kind of bait and switched him, where as soon as they got married, he said they did not consummate on their wedding night.
	It took a few nights for them to even have their first time together.
	Right.
	Well, I mean, yeah, the more sexual the presentation in general, the less sex you're going to have in the relationship.
	Really?
	I haven't heard that one.
	That's a deal.
	It's not 100%, but I mean, all of the, Because there's a reason why the woman is hypersexual, and usually it's the woman, could be the man, usually it's the woman.
	It's because she's not happy with herself, and if you're not happy with yourself, you generally can't have a good sex life.
	Because it's all based on a falsehood.
	Because you want the person to have sex with you as a person, soul to soul kind of thing.
	But if you know that you're not very likable, then the only reason the man wants to have sex with you is for your body against your spirit.
	And therefore you begin to resent it as a rejection of yourself, as you reject yourself, right?
	So it goes from feast to famine pretty quickly.
	That sounds an awful lot like my mother.
	That does.
	That does.
	Yeah.
	And, you know, your father would have had to lie to her to say, I love you, right?
	And he didn't.
	Because, you know, if the woman is unpleasant but sexy, then you can't say to her, well, I kind of hold my nose to your personality, but, you know, I love the TNA, right?
	That's, that's.
	So you have to lie and pretend that she's all kinds of quality, person, oh, I love you, you're so exciting, and great conversationalist, and all of that.
	And you just have to lie to her face.
	And she knows you're lying, and you know that you're lying, and you know she knows you're lying.
	It's all just so false, and that's why it's hollowed out, and that's why the sin of lust is so bad.
	It causes people to connect on the flesh and dislike each other at the level of spirit.
	Yeah, you're right.
	When he would mention them, Before marriage, it was never about, like, we enjoyed our time or we had fun.
	He never mentioned what we were talking about.
	She taught me a lot.
	She had a lot of wisdom.
	She read all these great books.
	Oh, yeah, it's nothing to do with that.
	He would never talk about that.
	It was always just, you know, she rushed me.
	I felt we should have dated longer.
	We got engaged quick.
	We got married quick.
	And she was all over me and then didn't give me any on our first night.
	That's always what the focus was.
	That was the whole story, every time.
	Isn't that the story of the devil, is to make lots of promises that turn out to be hollow?
	Yeah.
	No, seriously.
	Oh, man, if you marry me, we're going to have sex morning, noon, and night.
	Oh, I have a little malletette.
	I can't...
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	So, yeah, that's not...
	You get promised heaven and you get delivered hell, right?
	Yeah.
	He calls her the prison warden.
	Yeah, he calls her the prison warrant.
	Right.
	But only to me.
	So, yeah, not to her face.
	But in front of my other feelings.
	So, he feels, he still feels like a victim, that he was fooled.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	And he feels like a victim, that he was fooled, and he feels like he's kind of trapped, because it's like you have three kids, and he says he would stay together for the kids, and now it's like, if I divorce her, I'm going to lose half my savings.
	You know, half all my money.
	Oh, she didn't work, is that right?
	Yes.
	She worked at a shoe store, was it?
	That was when they were dating.
	Oh, working.
	Either as soon as they got married or as soon as they got pregnant, she stopped working and she hasn't gone back.
	Did she get a degree in something?
	She got a degree in biology, yeah.
	But she's never been back to work, even once we were going to public school, even when we were teenagers.
	Even now that we're adults, she's never gone back to work.
	So he would definitely be paying her.
	A lot.
	Right.
	But that's, again, that thing we said earlier of him putting his finances over his morals.
	Mm-hmm.
	Well, and because he lacks...
	So people who lack self-knowledge and self-criticism often stay in bad relationships because they know they'll just be trading one bad woman for another.
	Because let's say he did divorce...
	So he divorced your mother.
	Then he knows deep down, he'd just go wandering around, bleating about being a victim until some other jailkeeper came and took him prisoner.
	Yeah, because he would definitely want to get remarried.
	It would probably be pretty quick.
	Well, and now he's been, how long have they been married?
	Oh, 25?
	Hang on, hang on, hang on.
	No, because I'm 27. And my brother's, like, 29, 30. So it has to be around 30, 31 years.
	Right.
	I mean, I'll tell you this.
	I've been married, like, 23 years.
	I'd be completely useless for other women.
	Like, I've just, like, my wife and I have gotten to such a groove and, you know, our life is what it is and we've gone through so much together and, like, I'd be completely useless to other women.
	And so he's gotten into the groove with your mom.
	This is who he is.
	This is what marriage is.
	He's finally developed the muscles of self-pity and self-abandonment and victimhood.
	So he's not going to undo that if he gets divorced.
	He's not going to go out there and be a strong guy and an assertive guy and thus get a feminine accommodating woman.
	He's going to be out there playing the victim and bleeding and then some other woman's going to scoop him up and put him right back in prison.
	What's the point of trading prison for prison if you lose half your stuff?
	Yeah, yeah.
	At least he knows this prison.
	True.
	Right.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Well, it's better to endure the hells you have than to fly the ones you don't even know yet, right?
	So it's not out of love, and it's not even fundamentally about the money.
	It's like he knows that because deep down he's not able to assess his life and try and improve anything.
	Like what if he wanted to, you know, he'd go to therapy and, you know, deal with this whatever, right?
	But, and then, you know, if he went to therapy, even if you left your wife and, I mean, I don't know.
	Once you've locked your little kid into a room with rapists, I don't know, man.
	I don't know what happens in life after that.
	I have no idea.
	I mean, I've obviously never been a perfect person, but I've never, I haven't done anything in my life where I look back and you say, oh my God, that's so terrible.
	I mean, there's no restitution for, like anything like that, right?
	So I don't know what it's like.
	To have that on your conscience.
	And that's just, I mean, obviously I think it's the most egregious of many things that have happened.
	So I don't know how you get a conscience back when you haven't had one really in any practical sense for over half a century.
	I don't know that it regrows.
	I don't think it does.
	I don't know.
	I mean, does he pray?
	If he does, it's in private.
	Does he ever talk about, I pray for this, or I prayed for that?
	Sometimes.
	Yeah, okay.
	Okay, so he does pray.
	Sometimes.
	Well, I mean, everybody prays sometimes.
	You gotta pray all the time.
	We gotta sleep, right?
	Good point.
	And sometimes we cry out for God when we're not praying.
	Anyway.
	So, if he's praying, then I assume God is trying to awaken his conscience, but he's not listening.
	Presumably.
	And if God can't awaken his conscience, do you know who else can't?
	Me.
	Exactly.
	I try not to do what God finds impossible.
	That seems like a fairly...
	I get that.
	But the free will, right?
	So if he's praying to God and God can't awaken his conscience or God offers him guidance and he refuses to take it, if he won't listen to God, he ain't going to listen to you or me.
	Yeah.
	And that's the humility of knowing that people have a relationship with the divine is saying, look, I mean, he's got omnipotent.
	If he won't listen to them, the odds of him listening to me are absolutely zero.
	I'll see you next time.
	So we shouldn't try again.
	No.
	I'm also thinking of, like, if we were to put in this effort, what would I do for her parenting?
	It would be very stressful.
	Yeah.
	Is it good for our son to even attempt to rebuild this bridge?
	I don't think it is.
	Well, so, I mean, the final—look, I'm not going to tell you what to do.
	I couldn't possibly—I would never have the arrogance, you know, in our two-hour conversation to say, I know what you should or shouldn't do.
	I don't.
	I genuinely don't, right?
	But I do know that you want to guide it by morals, and you want to guide it by what's best for your children.
	Now.
	Yes.
	You are pregnant.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Is stress good for your baby?
	No.
	Is stress good for your child?
	No.
	See, the great thing about being parents is, you know, when you were a teenager and you woke up in the middle of the night, you could say, You know, maybe I'll get up.
	Maybe I won't.
	Maybe I'll go get a sandwich.
	Maybe I'll just go pee.
	Maybe I'll just sit in bed.
	Maybe I'll read or whatever.
	You can do all of these things that you choose, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	But when you have a baby waking up who's hungry and crying out for you, your free will gets whittled down a little bit, doesn't it?
	Yeah.
	I guess I'll go feed my baby, right?
	Yeah.
	So it's the same thing.
	Becoming a parent makes...
	Because you just, okay, my North Star, what I guide by is what's best for my kids.
	Now, you say, well, statistically, it's better off to have grandparents in the kid's life.
	Yeah, but that's on average.
	Your parents are not average, I'm sad to say.
	Yeah.
	I mean, to take an extreme example, not directly relevant, but, you know, if your parents were serial killers, you'd say, well, but, you know, it's good to have grandparents.
	No, it's not.
	Not if they're serial killers, right?
	Right.
	And that's what I've been Is it better to have them or not?
	Seems like probably not.
	Well, on average, you know, it's good to drink some milk unless you're lactose intolerant.
	So there's, you know, asterisks on all of these averages, right?
	Right.
	The desperately important thing is for your kids.
	You have a son, is that right?
	Two?
	Yes, we're going to have two.
	So your son, and this is man speaking to female, and listen, your husband is obviously the final authority, so this is to your husband.
	If I say anything that goes against what you believe, tell me I'm wrong, and I'll absolutely shut up.
	I say this with great tentativeness and hesitation, alright?
	Okay.
	Are boys interested in things that are big, loud, and powerful?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So, this is to your husband.
	When you were, for me, it was dinosaurs, spaceships, and trains.
	Big, loud, and powerful, right?
	What was it for you when you were a little boy?
	Like airplanes, trains, submarines, that sort of thing.
	Cool.
	Big, loud, and powerful.
	Alright.
	Now, Boys are drawn towards strength.
	Right?
	And boys will mirror themselves after whoever has the most power in the environment.
	And boys are incredible hound dogs at sniffing out the tendrils and hierarchies of human power.
	We evolved that way.
	I mean, girls are good at it too, but we're just talking about boys here for the moment, because your boy's older, right?
	I'm sorry?
	I said, because that's what we have.
	Right.
	To your husband, have I got anything wrong so far?
	Oh, you're perfectly correct.
	Okay.
	So, boys will model themselves after not their parents, but whoever has the most power.
	Hmm.
	So, if we go back, then...
	Your parents will exercise that power over you in obvious and non-obvious, indirect and indirect ways.
	Your son will sniff that out like a bloodhound at a crime scene.
	Yeah, I remember that confrontation we had in 2022, and she was just beating me down verbally, and I kind of went back into young mode.
	I was like, oh, okay.
	Yeah, I do remember that.
	You shut down.
	Yeah.
	I don't want him modeling my mother.
	But he will.
	Or he'll model your father and thus invite bullies at school.
	Yeah.
	I mean, I don't even remember if I published this call, but I had a caller.
	It was a very interesting call, and I'm just touching it really briefly here.
	I had a caller who had three dogs.
	No, two dogs.
	He had two dogs.
	And he was over at his parents' place, and he had good authority over these dogs.
	He was, you know, considered the alpha.
	He was over at his parents.
	His parents yelled at him and humiliated him, and both dogs bit him on the way home.
	Wow!
	Bang!
	Oh my gosh.
	Isn't that wild?
	Dogs!
	That is wild.
	That is so quick.
	Yes, they absolutely saw that he'd been humiliated, and he was no longer the alpha, and they made a vow.
	They made a vie for being in charge.
	And see, that's what we've been afraid of, too.
	My husband has mentioned that, of like, if we go back, he's going to see us getting, you know, disrespected and lose respect for our authority and decide he doesn't have to listen to us, because why would he?
	And he's going to say, who gets their way in the world?
	The most aggressive.
	Now, do boys want to get their way in the world?
	Doesn't everybody?
	I absolutely agree.
	I absolutely agree.
	But boys and girls go about it generally in different ways.
	True.
	Boys use hard power.
	Girls use soft power.
	So he's going to want to model himself after the biggest and strongest person who gets their way the most.
	And that's going to be not just your parents, but your entire extended family.
	You go around that extended family, all of whom seem to be siding with your parents.
	You're going to vanish and disappear in your son's mind's eye.
	And he's going to be like, damn!
	That's where the power is.
	That's what I want.
	And then my teen years are going to be quite challenging, to put it lightly.
	Yeah.
	I do not allow anybody around me who disrespects me, certainly not in front of my daughter.
	Uh.
	Because he should be modeling you.
	Yeah.
	To model you, you have to be in charge.
	You have to be the alpha.
	don't necessarily mean with regards to your wife, right?
	I'm just talking about...
	Now, I mean, she was there with me in Australia and New Zealand when the media was going after me and I was getting cross-grilled and examined on live TV and stuff like that.
	And, you know, part of what I am, I'm going to hold my own here because my daughter's right here, right?
	Which gives you a lot of strength.
	So that can be a good thing.
	And it's not like I win every conflict that I'm in, but my daughter will never see me be humiliated, right?
	So I'll just withdraw from a situation if somebody's escalating, like, whatever, right?
	So, it is around parental authority.
	And if you have authority, your relationship with your kids is almost infinitely easier than if they're skeptical of your authority and they say, well, hang on, these guys bow down before people who are kind of bullies.
	These guys appease people who are kind of mean to them.
	So, why would I listen to them about what's right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, because physically, they can't do anything to us.
	They break in the house and we call the cops, sort of thing.
	Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean.
	My husband has just pointed out, like, when we were debating cutting contact, I said, well, what if they retaliate?
	And he was like, there's nothing physical that they can do.
	They can't show up to the house.
	They can't, you know, take our car, take our house, take your phone.
	And we're financially independent of them, too.
	Yeah, so there's nothing physical that they can threaten.
	Well, okay, but let's say they do.
	They might, and I'm not saying they would, right, but I've heard of it, right?
	Let's say that they show up at your house and are knocking on the door or whatever, right?
	Well, I mean, that's something that makes it easier to explain with regards to your children in the future.
	You know, like we've tried to establish these boundaries.
	They came pounding on our door against our wishes.
	That's unacceptable, right?
	We got these rules.
	And, I mean, the way that I've certainly explained it to my daughter is, look, my door is always open.
	Honestly, anyone in my family, my door is always open.
	But they have to do the right thing.
	They have to...
	Take ownership, apologize, make restitution, and, you know, maybe I've done some things wrong that they want to talk to me about, and, you know, I'm certainly happy to listen to that.
	Hey, my door is always open.
	Right.
	But you've got to do the right thing.
	You know, it's kind of like the car dealership is always open, but you can't come and steal a car.
	Right.
	You've got to come in with some value.
	So if they came to us trying to say that they were sorry and they wanted to apologize.
	Well, I don't know what it would be, but it would have to be something pretty serious, right?
	Because you guys, you know, you're in your mid-late 20s, right?
	Yeah, sort of three quarters of your way through your third decade.
	So it would have to be like, we've enrolled in therapy.
	Our therapist is working with us on this, this, and this.
	If this show influences you, we've listened to some of Steph's shows or whoever, other people's shows, whatever has influenced you that might be of value to them.
	We're paying for your brother to get into therapy.
	We're going to talk about the things that have happened in the family to the extended family.
	We're going to talk about if it's okay with your brother because we need to make sure the extended family understands why you didn't want to see us for a while.
	And we need to tell them the bad things that we did.
	That is a lot.
	Mm-hmm.
	Well, I mean, I'm not a betting man, but I wouldn't put a penny on it.
	Honestly, I just, from what I've heard, I wouldn't put a penny on it.
	Yeah.
	If finding out their son got raped for years...
	Under their watch, under their care, custody and control, if that didn't shock them into change, I have no idea what would.
	Like, I genuinely have zero concept of what would.
	If that wasn't enough to shock them into realizing they were doing wrong or had done wrong or had messed up seriously, I can't imagine what would.
	You always make good points.
	It's like if some guy is a smoker and his father was a smoker and his father spends five years dying and he buries his father from lung cancer and then he won't quit smoking.
	It's like, what are you going to say?
	He just took care of his dying father for five years and buried him.
	He's still smoking?
	Like, you can't be more vivid than what happened in five years.
	Yeah.
	Mm-hmm.
	So they'd really have to...
	come forth with a lot and not just this We just need to talk.
	Not even saying that they want to apologize.
	They've just been saying we need to talk.
	Well, leave the ball in their court.
	And the last thing I'll say, and this one's really important, but I can hopefully do it pretty quickly.
	So, listen, I completely understand this.
	There's a lot of sentimentality about the phrase mother and father, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, if these were just some people that you met at a dinner party, you probably wouldn't become friends.
	No.
	Because you'd see the weakness, the manipulation, the gaslighting, the vanity, like all of you'd be like, oh, God, that was kind of a wild evening, but I'm glad we don't have to.
	So if you just met your parents at a dinner party, you wouldn't be drawn to them as people you'd want to keep in your life, right?
	And I know that's not a real thing, but that would be more to judge their personality as it is right now.
	Yeah.
	So you give them, and I think it's lovely and wonderful that you do.
	In some ways.
	So you give them a lot of special consideration because they're parents.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	And I understand why.
	I do the same thing.
	I really do.
	And that's no criticism.
	That's entirely natural.
	However, parents comes not just with the benefits of sentimentality, but it also comes with the obligation.
	So you feel the most sentimental towards them as parents, which makes perfect sense to me.
	But they also had the highest responsibility to protect you by far of anybody else.
	Right.
	And to listen to you now.
	Right.
	So the sentimentality is great.
	If you dial up sentimentality, I'm with you 100%.
	But you also have to dial up responsibility.
	You can't just dial up sentimentality.
	Parents, mother, father, I get all of that.
	But you can't dial that up.
	And give them all the special considerations of mother and father without all the responsibility and authority of mother and father.
	They need to be in charge.
	They need to lead the relationship.
	You guys are parents.
	My daughter is, I'm 58 years old.
	My daughter is 16 years old.
	I'm still in charge.
	I still run things.
	And I will always have that authority.
	It will never end.
	If there's a problem in my relationship with my daughter, it's mine to fix.
	It's mine to fix.
	It's mine to take initiative.
	Because I will always be older.
	I will always be her father.
	I will always be an authority figure.
	I will always be in charge.
	I'll be 80. She'll be 40 or whatever it is, right?
	It'll still be on me.
	Because you can't just snap your fingers.
	like this is part of my criticism with you, with your sister.
	Like, well, once she became an adult, now, listen, I just want you to say, okay, so she was treated really badly.
	Listen, you being the scapegoat of the family feels worse but has a much better prognosis.
	You get a much better outcome from being the scapegoat.
	Being the elevated and praised one is almost certain doom.
	What do you mean by that?
	Well, you have a negative experience as the scapegoat.
	True.
	bases her entire ego and sense of value on the praise from your parents.
	It's way tougher to escape a bribe than a threat.
	Thank you.
	Yeah.
	If I had to choose between being the scapegoat and being the golden child, give me the scapegoat any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
	Thank you.
	Because that's a way out.
	Yeah, I mean, if you'd been praised and you're the golden kid and everything's fun, then you get that special sick blow of satisfaction that your parents love you more and you feel superior to your sister and your brother and everybody loves you and you're just one.
	How do you escape that?
	That's a really good question.
	No, you escape from the dungeon.
	You don't escape from the palace.
	The palace is the dungeon.
	Because you don't even see it's a dungeon.
	And the palace of praise is, oh my god, it's the worst thing ever.
	Listen, I'm not saying have sympathy for her, because she's treating you just horribly.
	But in terms of the anger, you're angry because she was praised and you were scapegoated.
	And I understand that hurts, and I'm not trying to say it doesn't, but what I'm saying is that you I'll try to reframe that in my mind.
	No, it's like the muscle that has to strain envies the muscle that doesn't have to strain, but who ends up stronger?
	The strained one.
	Fine, the strained one.
	Fine, you cornered me.
	Fine.
	It's a fine analogy.
	I don't know if it's true, but it's a good analogy, and I'll take it.
	No, that's fair.
	That's totally fair.
	An analogy is not proof, right?
	So, yeah, with regards to your parents, they get a special elevation in terms of sentimentality.
	Absolutely.
	And that comes with a massive responsibility.
	And do not give them the sentimentality without also giving them the full ownership.
	My mother is my mother, and that's a very charged word.
	I came out from her, she nurtured me, she breastfed me, she raised me, such as she did.
	She has a very special place and a very special power.
	And with great power comes great what?
	Responsibility.
	That's right.
	So your parents are, the degree of sentimentality is the degree of responsibility.
	If they get special consideration for being parents, which they should, and they will inevitably, whether I say they shouldn't or don't, it inevitably is going to happen emotionally.
	And that has to be tempered with, they had the greatest responsibility.
	I have the greatest sentimentality with my mother.
	She also had the greatest responsibility to keep me safe, especially from herself.
	And it's the same thing.
	You feel the awesome responsibility of being parents.
	It is an alarming thing.
	It's a beautiful thing, completely alarming thing.
	I mean, I remember driving home with my daughter in the backseat of the car.
	Go in a cozy 15 miles an hour the whole way.
	What if there's a speed bump we don't see and she gets jostled?
	You know, that kind of thing.
	The little death magnets we call children, right?
	They really are.
	It's an absolutely awesome thing.
	And, you know, once you become a parent, everybody else's life just seems kind of frivolous.
	It's like, hey, man, I'm having trouble at work.
	Really?
	Are you trying to keep a death maggot child alive?
	Yeah.
	That's kind of, you know, like everything else.
	So, so you know that, that, that, Of course.
	And to listen to them.
	Because you have to listen to your children.
	Because of your power, you have to be very gentle and considerate, get down at their level and listen.
	And if your parents aren't doing that, if they shed their responsibility, you have to have the discipline to pull back the sentimentality.
	Because sentimentality without responsibility is way too much power, and they do not handle power well.
	Yeah.
	All right, that's the last thing I'm going to mumble about.
	All right, I'll try to dial it back.
	I'll help.
	Yeah, you will help.
	Yeah, and listen, I appreciate the sentimentality of women is a beautiful thing.
	It really is, and I absolutely love you guys for levering us up to the top of the food chain.
	But it does have to—and the Bible is, you know, very clear, right?
	The Bible is very clear about if someone wrongs you, speak to them privately, speak to them with a small group, speak to them in front of the congregation.
	If they do not admit fault and offer restitution in a meaningful way, they're gone.
	Matthew 18. That was the actual scripture we've been thinking in, Matthew 18, yeah.
	Honor thy mother and thy father, thou shalt not bear false witness.
	You honor your mother and your father with the truth, because it's dishonorable to lie to people.
	We lie to, like, little kids, right?
	No, we do.
	About certain things.
	Yeah, I'm not saying we lie generally or about important things, but, you know, if you just had an upsetting conversation with your mom or whatever and your little toddler is like, what's wrong, mommy?
	You're not going to sit there.
	Well, let me tell you, right?
	We withhold.
	We don't tell them the whole truth about the whole world, right?
	We don't turn on the surgery channel and the war channel and they're like, here, kid, this is the world.
	Well, it is, but, you know, we protect them.
	So we withhold things and lie by omission, in a sense, for kids until they're old enough to handle it, right?
	Right.
	But that's kids, right?
	You tell the whole truth to grown-ass adults, of which your parents are, right?
	So I honor thy mother and thy father, yeah, which means honor them as adults, which means don't bear false witness, tell them the truth.
	But it doesn't mean erase yourself for the sake of their selfishness and allow them to lead you into the sin of lying.
	Right.
	I mean, our parents should lead us to virtue, not to self-abandonment and falseness and subjugation against our will for the sake of threat rather than moral encouragement.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	Must be kind of late where you guys are too.
	Is there anything else you wanted to mention?
	I'm good, are you?
	I'm just going to need time to think and process.
	Well, the beauty is you can always re-listen.
	I've got a few little notes about one place and one kid name.
	I'll take those out for sure.
	And I hope you guys will keep me posted about how it's going.
	And I really do.
	I hope I did a good job.
	I just feel incredibly honored that you would trust me with any kind of feedback in this incredibly sensitive situation and my massive sympathies for what you are faced with.
	Thank you.
	I appreciate it.
	Thanks for answering our text so soon after our call and request.
	You are very welcome.
	I'm very glad to help and I hope you guys will keep me in the loop.
	Will do.
	All the best.
	If you remember, I would not at all mind a baby picture in the summer.
	I'll try to remember.
	It may not be your first thing.
	Maybe your second.
	Keep me posted, guys.
	Thanks for a great call.
	Yes, sir.

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