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March 28, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:18:35

MY WIFE WENT MAD! Freedomain Call In

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	Okay, cool.
	Well, I'm going to just kind of lay this out.
	First and foremost, man, I'm a huge fan.
	I've been probably listening to this stuff for like 10 or so years.
	I don't spank my kids because of you.
	So there's another three boys coming into the world that are not going to be spanked ever.
	So I know you love to hear that.
	But yeah, man, I basically have dealt with the most bizarre situation possible from so many dimensions.
	So as I walk through this, I think you're probably going to go, wait, stop there.
	Hold on.
	And there's going to be a million of these little pillars where you could probably double down and it's its own four-hour show.
	So I'll leave that up to you in terms of what red flags or stuff that peaks your interest or whatever.
	We can go into whatever.
	But bottom line is I...
	At around 33, I got married to a woman that I had been with for several years, and everything seemed cool.
	She was actually a single mother, but I totally knew what I was getting into with taking her daughter into my life, who's great.
	We had a son in 2015, and then another son in 2017.
	About a year after the second boy was born, there was some...
	I noticed a little bit of red flags in terms of just anger issues and emotional stuff, but I never knew what was normal and what was extreme.
	Definitely, my father had taken me aside and gone, hey man, don't have any more kids, by the way, because I can tell your wife is quote-unquote overwhelmed.
	And eventually, after my youngest was, I guess, three or four, my wife started talking about having more kids.
	And I said, yeah, I didn't say my dad sat me down, but I said, you know, maybe we shouldn't.
	And then we're in 2020 era now, and she's saying, you know, summer of 2020, she's saying, oh, so, and I mean, you're just going to read right into this, but she says, oh, you know.
	It's because I'm a bad wife, aren't I?
	You know, that sort of thing.
	And of course...
	What was it that prompted that comment?
	Because I was saying I did not want to have another child.
	Okay, got it, got it.
	So your dad was saying because she's overwhelmed and she's like, no, it's because you think I'm a bad wife.
	Exactly. That was what she said.
	And my dad had dealt with a very, very difficult mother and could just spot this stuff a mile away.
	But he also didn't want to.
	He said, son, this is what I'm seeing, but I'm not going to complicate your life by getting in your way.
	I'm just telling you, heads up.
	Sorry, he didn't see any red flags with her before she got married.
	Is that right?
	Not really.
	Nothing was ever mentioned to me.
	Other family members have said that they thought things, but nothing was very...
	Egregious. Again, it was just kind of typical making holidays complicated, stuff like that, but nothing too overboard.
	But then she got into some disagreements with my mother and things like that.
	And my parents are divorced, but my dad still kind of rushed to defend my mother in this situation, which I thought was interesting.
	But at the end of the day, I kind of said, okay, you can...
	I guess if we have another kid, just so you know, I'm 40 or 39 at the time.
	And I said, listen, I'm ready to not wipe butts anymore.
	I need to work more.
	I need to handle business.
	Life is calling me to go out in the world and conquer.
	And I felt I was very much being pulled into mom number two role.
	Sorry, mom number two role?
	What do you mean?
	I mean that I would be at work at 4 o'clock and be called to come home because the kids were overwhelming her.
	Come home, help, help was always the text I would get.
	Help. And that was stuff my dad was noticing too.
	And so he's like, dude, this isn't normal.
	Again, your kids now, the two boys are getting older, so don't have another one because you're just getting out of the red zone here.
	And I was like, oh, great.
	I can go mountain biking with them now.
	They're four and five.
	It's time to party.
	I'm not dealing with diapers and this and that.
	But I knew if another one was coming, I was going to get sucked back into doing a lot of this stuff.
	And again, I realized the accountability on my part for not putting those boundaries up even well before that.
	So there were a lot of concessions.
	And obviously, looking back, I could go, oh, man.
	This is all textbook.
	I go out now to the store and I see every dude doing this, grabbing stuff, dealing with the wives right in front of me.
	And I'm like, ha, I know exactly what that's like.
	Sorry, like grabbing stuff?
	Well, like, you know, get that off the shelf and come on, hurry up.
	You know, just being berated by their significant others.
	And I just look back and remember thinking that doing what she would tell me to do was going to make my job easier, but it just actually put me in a worse position.
	Oh, like, if you obey me, your life will get easier, but when you obey, it just gets worse.
	100%, yeah.
	And it's easy to say that and recognize that looking back.
	It was just a slow, gentle creep over a decade.
	But so, basically, you know, she convinces me that if we have another child, that she is going to double down and do all the work and this and that, and then I'm ready to, you know, okay, sorry, I shouldn't have said my name, whatever.
	Yeah, I'll read it.
	Go do the work.
	Go handle business, whatever.
	And I'm like, cool, deal.
	And by the way, we do get along well at this time.
	Life is pretty good, all things considered.
	And then a couple months into the pregnancy, she goes and gets an anomaly scan.
	And it turns out there's a triple hit.
	The baby's got a cleft lip, cleft palate.
	They discover this situation with my now ex, with my wife at the time, has placenta procreta, which is where your placenta grows into your uterus.
	And so that was not good.
	She had had three C-sections, and nobody talks about this, but apparently...
	C-sections are not free lunch.
	You pay for it.
	If you're going to have four kids, by the time you're on your fourth, if you've got three C-sections, there are these types of complications.
	All of a sudden, we're looking at a very complicated, high-risk pregnancy in addition to a poor baby who's going to have a cleft lip and palate.
	Wait, wait.
	What was the triple?
	Yeah. Well, no, that's what I'm saying.
	Palate, lip.
	Sometimes you only get a cleft lip.
	Oh, okay, okay.
	And so it was just lip, palate, and then placenta, procreta.
	And this is where I will take full accountability.
	At that point, I mean, obviously, I had grief for the fact that there was this complication with my baby and my wife.
	Although, I will be honest, I didn't quite know the gravity of the placenta, procreta thing.
	Even a Google wasn't giving me full scope of it.
	And so part of it, I did feel like there was a potential for a bit of a crying wolf situation where I, What do you mean?
	Abortion and then lady parts removed?
	No, no, no, no, no.
	Basically, I mean, definitely carrying the baby to term, but with that, this placenta procreta, the risk then is during birth, there's a chance that you will lose your uterus, cervix, and ovaries.
	Just to save you.
	You know what?
	I'm no doctor.
	Obviously, you're right.
	Totally. I'll explain it.
	No, I'll explain it.
	Basically, it's like your uterus kind of starts to...
	Your placenta, sorry, I keep interchanging those, your placenta starts to grow into the scar tissue left over from C-section scarring.
	And it's kind of almost like this web of vessels and things grows into and it becomes completely locked in.
	And so you don't lose, the placenta isn't separate.
	So other stuff comes with it during birth, basically.
	And it's pretty detrimental.
	I now know this looking back.
	But we had talked to the doctor.
	He's like, we might be able to save everything.
	We might not.
	We don't know until the day.
	So I was making a distinct choice not to panic, knowing that this was still...
	We had just gotten a scan.
	I knew we had six months.
	So I was like, okay, this could be bad, but let's not freak out.
	And that caused the beginning of some...
	Some resentment from both of us because I knew she thought I didn't care enough, which again is like she thought I didn't care enough and I was resentful of the fact that I said, you know, I'm sitting there going, man, this could have all been avoided because, you know, I wasn't even wanting to, you know, have another child at this time anyway.
	And, you know, every...
	Every bad thing that's coming, I feel like, you know, it was just like Cupid flying too close to the sun.
	It's like this woman really wanted to have another kid and I should have read the signs.
	I should have known.
	Bottom line is eventually, baby is born, healthy, you know, cleft lip and palate, obviously.
	But my ex...
	Wife at the time loses her uterus and ovaries.
	And I remember this doctor was very experienced.
	And when he came up, he put his hand on my leg and he said, I had to take her ovaries.
	And he looked at me and it looked like there was an entire, you know, watch out for what's coming with just in his eyes.
	And he didn't even didn't even say anything else, but he just said, I'm sorry.
	And then here we go.
	You know, we have a full year.
	First of all, she can't.
	Yeah, straight into menopause at 37 years old.
	So now we have to take bioidentical hormones every three months.
	You don't want that in baby's milk.
	So we're running around getting raw milk, making this Ayurvedic milk, which is actually wonderful.
	And it got us through the whole first year, but it was just this whole production of getting all those.
	Logistics and feeding the baby for a year, basically, manually.
	You have to squeeze feed with this pump because they don't have suction.
	So feeding, you're sitting there drowning your baby some of the time.
	I mean, it was just a brutal first year, but we get through it.
	But during those times, I did notice attitude shifts every three months when those hormones would run out.
	There would be a great amount of disdain towards me.
	And then it would let up after a week of being back on the pellets.
	And I'm like, oh, brother, this is a little something.
	And so after about a year of getting the baby through his first year, my ex starts to...
	Well, my dad dies, so that happens.
	He got pancreatic cancer during COVID, of course.
	Not detected early enough, and that one's a bitch anyway, so it got him.
	So I lose my dad, and then...
	How long did that take?
	You know, he made it about a year and a half with it.
	So he discovered he had it in, like, December of 2020, and he passed away in May of 2021.
	Or no, 2022.
	So he did surprisingly well.
	I mean, he was ripped.
	He was an older, big, you know, muscle guy, like, in the zone, but, you know, he fought, and it was just...
	It wasn't going to work out, unfortunately.
	So he was gone for a couple months.
	And then I was like, okay, life is finally peaceful.
	Everything's fine.
	Obviously, my dad's no longer in pain.
	And we're situated.
	The baby's fine.
	We've made it through that first year.
	He just had his first two major surgeries.
	So we got the cleft on the lip and the palate sealed up.
	And I'm like, okay.
	Now we can engage and go back to a normal schedule.
	But then things started getting weird where she ran out of her hormones again.
	And then, I will be totally honest, I, at that time, was smoking a little bit of pot late at night after a long day.
	Listen, I was a musician forever, and I stopped doing it, and I got into advertising.
	I took a 15-year off, but I was like, eh.
	Looking back, it was definitely a little bit of cope, just handling processing my father's death and stuff like that.
	But I had known that my ex, if she were to ever engage with that stuff, she had a history of if she did it for about six weeks, a very strong paranoia would set in.
	And so this is something you're really going to be interested in.
	Basically, through the 10 years of our marriage, we had a great marriage.
	But on the occasions where she smoked pot, she'd pick it up for, again, about six weeks and then start connecting dots and accusing people of things and picking fights with people.
	And then I would pull it.
	I'd throw it away.
	I'd flush it.
	And I'd be like, yeah, we're not bringing that in the house.
	So I made the mistake of trying to bring it in the house and smoke a little myself.
	And of course, she picked up on it.
	And there was this honeymoon phase where we were like, oh man, we're just good.
	Everything's good.
	We're just living it up.
	And then right around November of 2022, she's been on this.
	She's been smoking this stuff for about six weeks.
	And I'm going, oh man, we're right at that point where something could get a little weird.
	And then also the schedule of the hormones running out.
	And I noticed she starts dropping a lot of weight and then isn't sleeping as much and starts becoming extremely, extremely mean to me.
	Unusually mean to me.
	And I'm very close with her mother.
	And I was like, hey, this is unbelievable what I'm dealing with.
	And the mother was like, I don't know what to say.
	I'm sorry.
	And she had had major fights with her mother too.
	So it was getting very bizarre.
	And then, out of nowhere, she goes, there's someone else.
	And I'm like, what?
	Like, okay, that's weird.
	But she had primed me by being so mean to me that I was like, man, like, good luck.
	You know, like, I don't even know what to think about that.
	But, like, whoever he is, like, he's got a problem on his hands if you like him.
	You know, whatever.
	Holy crap.
	I won't say that's cold, but, I mean.
	That's wild.
	No, I'm...
	It is a little messed up, but I was being...
	Yeah, good luck with your lover is a pretty wild response.
	It was almost like I was trying to call her bluff, maybe, to get a full understanding.
	And so then, I mean, this is wild.
	This is somebody at the gym.
	And so I'm up at the gym in the cafe working, and she kind of tells me who this person is, and then I see him, and we make eye contact.
	And he sees me and this is a big old dude.
	It's kind of funny because it's so textbook.
	He's like 6'6", jacked.
	And he's like 35. He's a couple years younger.
	And I'm like, oh my God, whatever.
	And so I call her and I'm like, yeah, this ain't going to fly.
	You're not hanging out.
	At that point, I was like, I'll be honest.
	I became a little jealous.
	And I was like, dude.
	This ain't going to fly.
	We got four kids.
	I don't even know what I'm thinking here, even what I had said the other night when she told me that.
	But I was like, we have a problem.
	Because I also know, man, when a woman moves on, they've moved on.
	And so in my mind, the writing was on the wall.
	That was a very telling, chilling moment.
	But then all of a sudden, she passes out at the gym.
	I leave the gym and the head trainer calls me, who I'm friends with, and he's like, dude, Your wife is here.
	She passed out.
	And so there's an ambulance at the gym.
	So I show up at the gym and I shoo the ambulance off because I knew that this was just from not eating and not sleeping because she had gotten so skinny and stressed.
	So I got her home.
	And of course, I go into her phone and she's texting with him.
	And I call him.
	And I was like, hey, guy, you're talking to my wife.
	And I didn't get too sharp elbows with him.
	And I was like...
	Yo, what's the deal here?
	And he's like, oh my gosh.
	He's like, wait.
	He's like, dude, we were just talking workouts and stuff like that.
	I don't have feelings for this woman.
	I don't know what you're talking about.
	And I genuinely believed him because the guy could stand on his own.
	And honestly, he's the type of guy that would probably say, hey, man, you take that up with your wife.
	I thought you'd already told him that your wife has four kids.
	No, no, no.
	He knew that.
	Yeah, he knew that.
	But what I'm saying is all of his interactions with her from his perspective were totally benign.
	And it was just gym casual yapping at the gym with some chick.
	And again, there could be some...
	He could have maybe given her the eye or this or that, but he had no intentions of pursuing anything because he himself was married and had a kid and was actually trying to have another child with his current wife.
	And he was like, look, dude, I'm good.
	I am not.
	And again, I believed him and I do believe him.
	And a little later, she called him and I let her call him because I was just like...
	This is just going to play out how it plays out.
	And sure enough, he was like, yeah, I'm having none of this.
	And it was the first time I ever saw my wife turn into a 15-year-old that had been dumped.
	It was the weirdest thing for me to sit here and go, this woman who adored me for the last decade, in every way possible, adored me.
	All of a sudden, looks like she just got dumped by her high school crush.
	And she laid in bed and was...
	Like that for a day.
	And I was just like, what is happening?
	So basically, over the course of several months, I was like, okay, I'm going to try and save this marriage.
	I'm just sorry.
	I almost dropped the recorder.
	So you confronted this guy.
	Now, what was it that made her, and I really apologize for this.
	It's very rare that it happened.
	What was it that made her lie in bed?
	The fact that he turned her down.
	He said to her face, I am not interested in you.
	Period. And so that was that signaled.
	I mean, she was downright depressed.
	Again, she looked like she got dumped.
	And I think she thought she had an off-ramp.
	And the other weird thing was she started telling me that he was a billionaire.
	And I was like, listen, that's exciting, but I can tell you there's probably like...
	Maybe 90 billionaires.
	This guy ain't one of them.
	I started to see her creating this kind of archetype, this fantasy.
	Again, he was already a big guy, so he had that beast, werewolf thing going.
	But then, oh, Andy's got a billion dollars.
	It was all these things.
	I was like, this is kind of odd.
	It started getting weirder and weirder.
	Why do you think she was saying that?
	Um, because I think, I mean, well, there's, there could, it could be one of many things.
	Either she was starting, this was the beginning of her psychosis, um, or, or it was a valid, it was a valid shift of attraction from being attracted to a certain type of person to having new hormones and new things and that changing.
	So that was what I was dancing with.
	I'm sitting here going, is this normal?
	Or is it the marijuana?
	Is it the hormones?
	Or is it me?
	Did I drive her away?
	Did I piss her off?
	And I don't know.
	Obviously, I'm just skating around the outside of this.
	But it's almost like she wants to have leverage.
	Like, this is how desirable this guy is.
	Now, whether that's leverage over you or some sort of weight in negotiations, you know, it's like if you're negotiating for a job and it's like, hey, man, I just won the lottery, so just so you know, salary is like not a big issue for me.
	I'm working for fun.
	Then that gives you more leverage in the negotiation.
	But it doesn't sound like she was negotiating for anything.
	No, that's the thing.
	She wasn't asking for anything other than to run off with this person.
	But then she said crazy things like, I'm going to take the boys and he's going to raise them.
	And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
	And again, that's where I confided with her mother.
	And her mother was like, oh, dear.
	Oh, dear.
	That's a very muted response to a woman who seems to be seriously losing her mind, right?
	Yeah, I mean, but yeah.
	And again, for her, she was...
	Tracking with me, though.
	She was hearing me.
	And then over the holidays, she started spending money.
	She went and spent like $10,000 in one shopping trip.
	Shopping for what?
	Shoes. Oh, no.
	So she's manic at this point, right?
	You're 100% correct.
	Yes. So then come January, I'm still trying to save things.
	And then we even hooked up another couple times.
	And then I was like...
	Really trying to rekindle things.
	And again, looking back, it was a total waste.
	It wasn't a wasted effort, but there was no chance.
	I even sent her to Arizona to a suite.
	I spent $5,000 putting her up.
	Just said, hey, get some rest.
	Please don't smoke any pot, but get settled out and we'll reconvene.
	And then she comes back.
	And for another month, we're just trying to feel things out.
	But there's just nothing there.
	And she even...
	This is the worst, man.
	While she's in Arizona, I have her iPad and she's on her computer and she starts journaling.
	And of course, I'm going to go look at her notes.
	And I'm seeing her notes type live.
	So she's across the country.
	I'm seeing this note fill up of her fantasy with this man still.
	Okay, so I know it would suck to get cheated on, but this was kind of up there in terms of hearing.
	And again, I know it was a bit of an invasion, but I'm also in the process of trying to assess whether it's worth my time to even try to save this marriage.
	So I felt justified in looking at her iPad.
	But of course, I'm watching this stuff being typed in real time, explicit stuff.
	And I'm going, oh my God.
	Just nauseated with that.
	And then she gets back in town and I'm like, okay, this is not going to work.
	And then she starts smoking pot again and she says, you can't tell me what to do.
	I'm just going to do it.
	And I'm like, you know what?
	You're right.
	Just do it.
	Good luck.
	And about a month later, she goes out for the night and her daughter, who's 17 years old, comes to me and says, Listen, my mom's telling me that the guy from the gym is talking to her through the radio.
	And I go, oh no.
	This is starting to get unusual.
	And again, we have a 2-year-old, a 6-year-old, and an 8-year-old that I'm kind of doing a lot of the heavy lifting for now because she's checked out.
	Part of that could have to do with...
	Not having those mom hormones.
	I mean, again, she has the hormone profile of a 55-year-old, so wanting to flee, basically.
	But that night where daughter tells me that mom's hearing stuff through the radio, mom never comes home.
	And then I get a knock on the door from a police officer at 5 in the morning, and he says, are you missing a relative with dementia?
	And I said, nope, but I have a wife that didn't come home.
	And she was found in a field praying.
	She had gone out that night and had met up with some dudes and they thought they were going to get lucky, but instead she took them on a spirit quest.
	And then eventually they said, oh God, we better call the police.
	She's praying in a field.
	And so she was picked up and then I came down to the station and got her and drove her home.
	And during that ride, she was telling me all sorts of delusions about the guy at the gym.
	You know, being this billionaire who's got all these secret connections.
	And I was like, okay, this whole thing has taken a whole different turn, okay?
	And I still thought that that was maybe marijuana-induced.
	And I kind of believe it is.
	I believe that it's ultimately stress-induced, but marijuana was the catalyst to kind of push things to pop the balloon, so to speak.
	We got her stabilized.
	Another month went by and we were talking about still maybe fixing our relationship for the sake of the children.
	I know you've heard that a million times, but I was willing to make that sense.
	When you say we got her stabilized, what does that mean?
	Me and her mother got her home, kind of kept an eye on her and watched her and made sure she did not touch any drugs and made sure she just...
	We simplified her life so that we wouldn't stress her out over the course, you know, just so she could, like, get a ton of rest, basically.
	And she was no longer delusional.
	She was no longer hearing things from the radio.
	She was, like, back to, like, regular functioning adult, not talking about crazy stuff.
	Well, not functioning much, though, right?
	Just not unfunctioning.
	Correct. But at least, like, sleeping and eating and, you know, giving her children hugs and...
	You know, making meals and stuff like that, but certainly not, you know, out there killing it by any stretch of the imagination.
	Was she aware of her sort of break from reality stuff?
	She kind of denied it.
	She was kind of like, I don't know what that was.
	And she claimed that Tom Cruise was with her the whole night.
	Right. You know, and she's like, no, it really was.
	But then as she became very much more grounded, she goes, oh, you know, he just looked like him.
	So what it was, was there's this like hindsight, I don't know if you want to call it like hindsight bias or some sort of historic, like the way she's kind of revising the very unusual memory to kind of fit in with like, oh, it's just because he looked like Tom Cruise.
	Whereas a week prior, she was like, swore it was Tom Cruise who was with her.
	So there was a way of kind of reverse engineering it and justifying.
	What it was.
	Oh, that's normal.
	I just didn't sleep much that week.
	I just wasn't sleeping.
	How much medical stuff?
	Did she get hormone levels?
	Was there stuff going on that way?
	At that point, she was not due.
	She had gotten an injection, I think, like a month prior.
	So she was kind of in the window of normal levels.
	From what I understand, because we didn't test her that often, but we knew of two, of three, she was usually fine.
	But basically, so a month goes by, and now we're in the beginning of May 2022, and we start noticing she's not sleeping again.
	And she even took me aside and said, am I losing my mind?
	And that was kind of a weird thing.
	And then the next day, she didn't sleep.
	And then her mom's out of town and her mom is just kind of like, I'm kind of telling her mom what's going on.
	And her mom's like, you know, I don't have a good feeling about this.
	It's starting to escalate, you know, the lack of sleep.
	And there would be this wandering, this a lot of pacing and looking out of windows and not listening when people are talking.
	And then that Saturday night, May 5th rolls around and she's taking all the art off the walls in my home and putting it out in the street.
	And wearing a robe and sunglasses.
	And she's saying, I'm putting on an art show.
	And then she starts talking about how she was talking to somebody named Dorothy all day on the swing set.
	There's no such thing as...
	There's no person named Dorothy.
	And she's telling this to me and her teenage daughter.
	And her daughter looks at me and begs me, we have to get her help.
	We have to call the police.
	We have to call an ambulance.
	So eventually, I get an ambulance there.
	They pull up and she goes, oh, you're here for the art show.
	And they talk to her and they eventually convince her to get in the ambulance and they take her away.
	And she was institutionalized for about 10 days.
	And during that time, her mother said, this is, you need to get a child.
	Yeah, just remember to stay off the names if you could.
	Oh, so, so sorry.
	Yeah, no problem.
	Just let's work afterwards.
	No, totally.
	Do you want me to clap so you'll find it?
	No, no, I'll make it out.
	Okay, right on.
	So her mother says, you have to get a child protective order.
	Because you can't risk any possibility of these kids being able to be picked up legally by her.
	You need legal protection of them while she is not aware of her surroundings.
	It's a safety issue.
	And I was like, yeah, 100%.
	So I did that, and it was the hardest thing I've ever had to do.
	You know what I'm saying?
	Serving somebody papers when they don't even know.
	And again, we're still legally married at this time, but they don't even know what they didn't do.
	She didn't do anything wrong.
	This happened to her.
	So it's very ethically weird.
	It's a weird dilemma, but the bottom line is I did it.
	I got an emergency protection.
	So that meant she also wasn't able to come back to the house.
	So I put her up in an Airbnb, and then she started accusing me of poisoning her.
	Saying, oh, the reason I was putting on an art show is because you slipped LSD into my drink.
	And so that was the moment where I'm going, okay, this is a real threat to me as the head of the house and my ability to be the protector of these kids.
	Because if I get taken off the chessboard from some weird accusation, this can't happen.
	So everybody in my family, everybody in her family is going, You know, you got to do the divorce thing.
	And luckily, she kind of came back into lucidity over the summer.
	And her and I were able to go to a mediator and mediate a divorce.
	And it happened.
	By September, we signed the divorce papers.
	It was finalized a month later.
	During that time, she did have a kind of brush with a little bit of psychosis in an incident with her mother.
	But she wasn't hospitalized.
	But the bottom line is, I was trying to move things around so that I could be set up for success.
	The woman had told me she didn't love me anymore.
	God had promised her to another man.
	So I felt pretty vindicated in addition to the fact that she thought I was trying to poison her.
	I was like, I'm justified in this move, essentially.
	So divorce happens.
	You're going to definitely have some thoughts about this, but from a strategic perspective, I left the mental health stuff out of the divorce conversation because I knew if I brought that into it, it would draw it out.
	And I knew the sooner I got a divorce...
	Oh, draw out the length of the divorce process.
	Correct. Because she'd have to get it out.
	I mean, she was already evaluated in the past, right?
	She was, but the thing is, with these hospitals, they let you go.
	Unless you ask, that stuff isn't visible.
	Do you know what I'm saying?
	If we're talking to even a judge that sees an amicable, mediated divorce, he's just going to stamp it.
	He's not going to happen to check if she happened to be in a mental institution three months prior.
	Sorry, did they put her on fistfuls of psych meds and stuff?
	They did while she was there, and the moment she got out, she stopped taking it.
	Okay. So yeah, that was also like, ugh.
	So yeah, she wasn't taking that for a second.
	And divorce happens in October, and we're living separately.
	I gave her a fine settlement, a fine alimony, and then fine child support.
	So she's got a chunk of money.
	Wait, child support?
	Isn't she still barred from seeing the kids?
	At this time?
	Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Sorry. And again, there's so many details.
	Yeah, I just want to make sure I put the story.
	And this is another thing.
	It was a strategic move that was risky, but honestly worked in the long run.
	I dropped the protective order.
	I dropped it because she had initially, I mean, this is, again, this is like a whole path to go down, but she was like, I'll just go, there's men that will sleep with me for $10,000, and I'll do that, and I'll use that money to fight you over this protective order.
	Is she very pretty and good figure and all that?
	100%, yeah.
	100%. I mean, it's not easy to get billionaires and Tom Cruise to sleep with you, but I guess she's got the goods.
	Yeah, 100%.
	And that's part of what makes her dangerous.
	Yeah, she'd stop traffic.
	And that's also what made it pretty difficult for me.
	I'm not going to lie.
	That's how I got looped into all this.
	Because I think any other guy who had maybe had a little bit more, or a lot more experience, maybe early on would have...
	I noticed some things I didn't and vetted her.
	I was like, oh man, this is the first beautiful woman coming my way.
	Let's do this.
	I paid the price.
	But nonetheless, I had dismissed the legal stuff so that the divorce was able to have as less friction as possible.
	And even then, it was just wild to me that I had to wait for a judge to approve my breakup.
	But he did.
	And so in October, that's done.
	And we're living separately.
	And of course, my family and her family are both saying, keep eyes on that situation.
	And I knew it was a matter of time before another incident would happen.
	And that would be my moment to get my kids back.
	100% of the time, basically.
	So in December, mid-December, she calls me out of nowhere and says, you got to get the kids.
	I don't feel well.
	I had a dream.
	Starts talking about this stuff.
	But to her credit, she cares about the kids enough to go, Dad needs to come get you.
	Mom's not feeling good.
	And that's always that preemptive before the slippery slope, before things really get bad.
	Because eventually, her delusions get a hold of her and then she believes them.
	Where in the beginning of these states, she can recognize them as not...
	Not real.
	But then they eventually become convincing enough that that's her reality.
	So she threw out the distress beacon.
	I get the kids.
	And then three days later, I get a call from a hospital.
	And they say, we have a woman here.
	Your number's listed.
	And I collapsed on the floor.
	Because she had shown up.
	She was working at a daycare, of all things.
	She had shown up there in a...
	Psychotic state.
	And so they called the ambulance and she was hospitalized.
	And I remember I just went down to the floor and I was like, finally, I know for sure I can keep my kids safe now.
	And so what I did then was I did another emergency protection order, got the kids 100% under my roof, and then filed motion to modify custody.
	So again, I knew it was kind of a ticking time, Mom.
	I didn't want to have those logistics involved with the divorce.
	I wanted the divorce thing to just be strictly financial, getting that sorted.
	And honestly, the sooner I did it, the sooner I wouldn't be bleeding out cash where she's spending my money on shoes and things like that.
	So I had to just get that done.
	And then I knew the kid thing was going to...
	That was my next move.
	So I got full custody of the kids.
	That's in December.
	And then...
	A hearing set for January 28th of 2023.
	A hearing comes.
	She gets hospitalized again, so it doesn't show up to the hearing.
	So bottom line is she's getting hospitalized every six weeks.
	These cycles are repeating.
	I just have the kids the whole time.
	And now it's the reason I'm going crazy is because you stole my kids.
	You did this.
	And then in the spring, she...
	After another hospitalization and another missing of a court date, which funny is she's getting rewarded because I'm now out $30,000 in this custody thing, and she's just never showing up.
	So I have to keep paying lawyers to track all this stuff.
	And then she disappears and goes a couple states away.
	And while she's in other states, she's posting on Instagram going, I'm looking for military-ready men.
	My ex-husband has taken my kids.
	I need help spying on him to get him in trouble so that I can get my kids back.
	People are streaking, shouting this and sending me this stuff.
	And I'm going, oh my God.
	It's just in combination with being totally embarrassed that all of our networks and everybody we know is seeing this stuff.
	I'm also just like, what has happened to the mother of my children who I...
	I mean, that's painful stuff.
	Knowing that it's all in her mind, and it's all...
	Truthfully, again, weirdly, it's not her fault, but it's still happening.
	And basically, I've had custody of the kids since December, and we are still doing these court things, these check-ins, and she's not showing up, and we're trying to get a trial date.
	At that point, it'll be a slam dunk in terms of all of the...
	Stuff, all the reasons why I should have the kids, obviously.
	And her own daughter lives with me, too.
	So it's me and four children right now.
	So you work for me and who takes care of the kids?
	Me. But you're working?
	Oh, yeah.
	I own my own company, so I get them to school and daycare first thing.
	I work real hard until about three.
	And then it's party time.
	And I have a partner who I depend a lot on.
	And I'm one of five children.
	And her mother is also helping me a ton with the baby.
	So it is not an ideal situation.
	But for all things considered, I am definitely not on my own.
	Again, my family has been amazing.
	Her family has been amazing.
	So are these kids getting the very best upbringing that they could have?
	No. But all things considered, It takes a village and there's a village.
	I have so much gratitude for that.
	Meanwhile, she's going in and out of the hospital and then she's starting to show up at the house wanting to see them.
	It's a very difficult thing for me because I'm not supposed to let them see her because it becomes a conflict of interest.
	Then the judge can go, well, if she's so sick, why are you letting them see her?
	Apparently, it's got to be black or white.
	They either can't see her at all or...
	She gets custody, which I'm like, dude, you guys, can't we just figure out a little bit of middle ground here?
	Nonetheless, she shows up last weekend and says, it's the first time ever, like a very, very deep rage.
	And she got real close and stuck her finger in my stomach and then chomped and bit right into my ear.
	And her teeth connected.
	And started ripping my ear off in front of my kids.
	This was last Friday.
	And it is funny because this was even before I reached out to you.
	So it's like the story still goes.
	So she does that.
	Luckily, she let go.
	And I hit record on my phone because I saw it escalating.
	So I got the recording of it.
	She leaves.
	I call the police.
	I press charges.
	And I got a restraining order last week.
	I still can't serve her because I don't know where she lives.
	So I'm essentially waiting for her to show up here and then I'm going to get the police here to serve her and potentially arrest her.
	But it's just this vortex of so many variables to figure out.
	I mean, I guess the why this happened, it's just like bad stuff happens.
	It's like getting cancer.
	Bad stuff just happens.
	Well, no.
	Cancer doesn't just happen.
	Not to everyone.
	I suppose you're right.
	I'm just saying, in terms of trying to wade through it, I do have a history of depression and anxiety, but luckily I've stayed above water on all of it.
	I just go to the gym and work out a lot and eat right and sleep.
	So I'm staying mentally with it.
	And again, it's all for these boys.
	My stepdaughter, who I just refer to as my stepdaughter, even though we're not legally.
	But that's keeping me going.
	And the priority is them.
	But it's also so difficult knowing this poor person is out there alone.
	She is refusing to get help.
	And again, you're going to hear other details and you're going to go, oh my God.
	For instance, in June, she had an episode.
	And she was at her grandmother's, and she got in the car and drove off.
	And then the grandmother's sitting on the porch and sees her going 90 miles an hour, getting chased by three police.
	And she was in a high-speed police chase across three counties.
	They had to spike strip her.
	And then she tried to run them over.
	And they put her in the hospital again, and she's out eight days later like it never happened.
	And she didn't even remember it.
	And you know what's even funnier?
	Sorry. When I got my ear.
	Oh, she doesn't go to jail?
	Is that right?
	Because she's considered to be crazy, so they put her in the hospital.
	But the hospital lets her out.
	Yeah, and she is a salesman like you have never seen.
	When she comes back into focus, she'll sell ice to an Eskimo.
	I mean, it's like, hey, you're going to let me out because this, this, this, and I can do that.
	And, again, they do stabilize her, so she talks herself right out of there, and she's back on the street.
	But it's wild, because, like, she bites my ear last week, and the police run her name in the system, and there's, oh, she's got a perfectly clean record.
	And I'm like, uh, yeah.
	You know, wouldn't the police like to know that this...
	Yeah, yeah.
	No, it totally is.
	It's real.
	100%. It is real, yeah.
	I mean, listen, like, if she, yeah, she'd been the wrong color, whoo!
	Yeah, she wouldn't have made it that far.
	Unless she was pretty in the wrong color.
	Yeah, no, I mean, I get it.
	Totally, totally.
	And again, stupid joke, but nonetheless, it's the thing I'm kind of, I'm sharing this as like a cautionary, you know, like, you know, it's a wild story and it was this like really nice marriage under the right conditions and things very much deteriorated.
	But I'm now faced with this problem where I'm doing horrible things to a person who doesn't know any better.
	And so I have to walk around under the assumption that if this person thinks I'm taking their children the way that they believe that, then they're going to want to kill me.
	Well, or they're going to get some crazy, as you say, looking for military men, right?
	Yeah. Yeah.
	And she did even purchase a gun at the beginning of the year.
	And we told the judge and we got it confiscated.
	And there was no threats.
	Because the thing is, too, she's very paranoid.
	And when she is kind of in these states, she also avoids me because she believes that I'm the mastermind behind all this stuff.
	Since the beginning, I've been slipping LSD into all of her meals.
	So there's that whole component.
	But it's really hard because she's just...
	Completely refusing to get help.
	And my poor young children, they need their mother.
	They need a mother.
	It's not possible, obviously.
	But they're asking questions.
	In the scheme of things, other than last week, they honestly were pretty shielded from any of the major explosiveness.
	They didn't really see any major drama.
	So that's great.
	You know, they're dreaming about her.
	My middle, you know, kid, he's waking up, he's like, I had a dream about mommy.
	I want to see mommy, you know?
	And it's like, I am the one preventing that, without question.
	But she is a danger.
	You are the one preventing that.
	Protecting them.
	Well, yeah, I am preventing them from seeing her.
	Absolutely. Well, no.
	I'm the one who legally put it in motion.
	I've done a lot of listening, right?
	Let me get a word in edgewise, okay?
	Yeah. Okay, slow your roll.
	Please, I'm ready.
	You're calling me for some feedback, right?
	No, I know.
	I've been talking too much.
	No, no, it's not too much.
	It's just that when I do have something to say, don't just start immediately talking over me because then I just feel like I'm a prop, right?
	Then I'll go have an exercise.
	I'll let you talk and then I'll come back later, right?
	Because we've been talking for almost an hour and I've not said almost anything other than some clarifying stuff, right?
	Is that fair to say?
	You got it.
	Sorry, I'm not sure if we're still connected.
	You there?
	Yes, can you hear me?
	I can hear you.
	Can you not hear me?
	Yeah, yeah, I got you.
	It's kind of coming and going.
	All right, just let me know if I can hear you.
	Oh, you can hear me?
	I can hear you, sir.
	Okay. So, no.
	So, you're not preventing them from seeing her as in their mother.
	Because she's not herself.
	Sure. Right?
	I mean, if she was, like, horribly drunk, passing out, slurring her words, throwing up, right?
	You say, well, you're preventing me from seeing my mother.
	It's like, no, I'm preventing you from seeing not your mother, but this drunk woman.
	So, this is an important category.
	Yeah. You're not preventing them from seeing her, because if she was her, you wouldn't prevent it.
	She's not herself.
	She's a dangerous, half-cannibalistic, ear-chomping, Mike Tyson-style lunatic.
	So you're not preventing them from seeing their mother, because their mother is not their mother.
	It's just important to have that consideration.
	Under no you're right.
	Okay.
	You're kind of garbling up a little bit.
	Can you try to say that again?
	person is sad in his Thank you. I'm so sorry.
	Let me try moving.
	Can you hear me?
	Yeah, you're kind of garbling up a little bit.
	Let me try moving where I am and see if that helps.
	I didn't have any trouble before.
	Just try sort of responding to that again.
	Yeah, can you hear me?
	Yeah, that seems all right now.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, I was just saying, it's like a death.
	It's like this person has been lost to us, and then we get these, like, it's a tease when she shows up, and we hope that it's her, but it's not.
	No, it's worse than a death.
	It's worse than a death.
	Hang on, hang on.
	It's not, because a death is closure.
	This is like death plus zombie.
	Yeah. It really is.
	It really is.
	And it's also so hard for her daughter.
	Her 18-year-old is just devastated by the big change in her life and not knowing where she fits in.
	And then, yeah, seeing her mother slowly go bye-bye.
	I'm wondering if that's in her life to come.
	Yeah. Or any of my boys, for that matter.
	They all share a mother, and you got to wonder if that's...
	Yeah. It's like, that's my goal is to prevent it with these kids.
	And to your point, too, I do say to myself, I'm doing right by her, by the person that I married, by making sure her kids are okay.
	That's how I kind of am able to reframe it.
	Right, okay.
	So how do things stand at the moment?
	I'm literally just riding it out, trying to work, trying to keep these boys engaged.
	It's tough, you know, they're a lot.
	And I'm literally waiting for any moment for her to show up at my house, and then I will call the police and get them to serve her.
	And I'm waiting for official legal custody, but really I'm trying to move on with my life, and all of us are.
	And like you said, it's like the zombie.
	It's like you want the closure, but there's no closure because there's this outlier orbiting variable that comes into play every few weeks and totally disrupts us, you know?
	So yeah, there's no ending.
	It's just at the moment, and it's just this roller coaster.
	There's a couple ways this can end.
	One, I'm not going to mention.
	And two is if she starts agreeing to take whatever medication or whatever deep treatment.
	My hope is that the legal stuff will catch up with her sooner than later.
	Part of the reason I'm pressing charges for the ear thing is not to punish her, but I want a judge to look at everything and go, boom, you need to spend 90 days in a facility, you know?
	Sorry, you said there was one at the beginning, and you said very quickly what it was.
	You said one, and then two is the legal stuff.
	Oh, I said the other one, I don't want to utter the words, but the idea of something bad happening where she hurts herself.
	Oh, yeah, yeah.
	Okay, I got it.
	Between the high-speed police chases, every time we're all on edge wondering if we're going to get that call, if she crashes or does something like that.
	So I'm just saying that's one way it ends, or there's an intervention that is convincing enough where she's either convinced herself or she has to get help, either scenario.
	There's a narcissism element to this where there's nothing wrong with me, and that might be preventing her from ever taking accountability for it, for any of this.
	Because it's all everybody else.
	It's all her mother and her daughter and me doing this.
	The people that were closest to her.
	We all did this, you know?
	Right. Okay.
	Okay. So either she takes herself out through self-harm or...
	There's some legal consequence, and she's just locked up, maybe not in prison, but in some sort of treatment facility, and they don't just turn her loose, right?
	Exactly, yeah.
	And the other thing is we keep trying to get her mother to get conservatorship and medical power of attorney, because that's another route.
	But apparently, I mean, it is like pulling teeth.
	It becomes a whole legal battle, and it puts the mother on the other side of the table from me.
	In the custody dispute, which still hasn't been officially ruled upon.
	So my lawyer's going, Dad, don't do that yet.
	First get the kid situated, and then have the mother of mom do that so they don't cross over, so to speak.
	So that's another route that we're considering.
	Because I'll be honest, man, I still care about her, and I'm not trying to like...
	Pursue a relationship, but this is a human.
	But again, my feelings can be getting in my way.
	I probably could have saved an earlobe by being a little bit more steadfast.
	I know if my dad were still here, he would have advised me differently.
	He would have told me to be a little more hardcore with this.
	You mean earlier on?
	Yeah, earlier on.
	Technically, I have been...
	Empathetic. Oh, and there's another funny element to this, too.
	Boiler, it won't be funny, but anyway, come on.
	The guy from the gym called me a month ago, and he said, hey man, do you got a second?
	And I was like, oh yeah, what's this about?
	And he said that he went to pick his child up from school, and his child was walked out of school by my ex.
	And his ex had...
	My ex had become a substitute teacher at his child's school.
	And yeah, so she was stalking him.
	And he was asking me if I...
	He's like, dude, we looked her up on CaseNet and we couldn't find any legal stuff.
	Because we called the school to get her fired and they couldn't get her fired because none of the legal stuff was on record.
	And I'm like, man, shame on this judge for kicking the can down the road because there's bad things that could have happened or could happen because this isn't...
	Situated. But that was very alarming, too.
	And he had just wanted my help.
	And we chatted for a while, and I helped him.
	Again, he's kind of a cool guy.
	And I was like, dude, I don't really know what to tell you.
	I can tell you where she worked at the daycare.
	And you might get the school to call the daycare where she was let go from for coming in there, having an episode.
	And that's what happened.
	So his problem was solved.
	But nonetheless, it's just like...
	There's always these crazy, crazy things happening.
	And again, it's, it's, it's very, obviously very, very serious.
	And I'm like, you know, focusing deep on these kids, but emotionally too, it's, it's, it's obviously difficult for me.
	Um, it's just, it's just hard.
	It's just tough, man, as you would imagine.
	Oh yeah, absolutely.
	And so I guess this sort of came around with the pregnancy of your fourth kid, right?
	And so how long, how long has this been going on for?
	Um, started.
	We're on two years this month.
	Two years was where it all started, two years ago, around November.
	Right, okay.
	Yeah. And again, though, before that, we had these brief little brushes with the weird paranoia and stuff, but that was specific to pot smoking, and that's the other thing.
	This stuff's legal, and I went on X and was having these conversations with other people.
	About how their lives would get uprooted for a full year from psychosis, marijuana-induced psychosis.
	And it's this thing that you can learn about it if you look for it, but it's definitely not out in the open.
	And it's part of the reason I felt compelled to even...
	Obviously, I know you have all this insight, but I'm like, man, people need to know that this stuff's happening.
	It's absolutely happening.
	Right. And, I mean, I remember posting about this stuff, like, I don't know, 10 or 15 years ago, just how dangerous marijuana is and how different it is from sort of the boomer weak source stuff.
	It's really concentrated and powerful.
	And, yeah, a lot of schizophrenia does come out of marijuana abuse, as far as I've read.
	So, yeah, it's tough.
	Yeah, it is.
	And it's hard to get the cat back in the bag, you know.
	And, again, there was clearly predisposition.
	And I think...
	It's like anything, like extreme stress.
	We all have our thing that can manifest under extreme if we break.
	And this was what manifested with her when she broke.
	She created a fantasy and all the delusions and violence and everything just turned into a monster, basically.
	But I know I've talked a lot and I appreciate...
	Getting to chat with you again, I'm in fanboy mode too.
	I don't know that there's any answers.
	I'm just trying to apply the principles of stoicism and just wait along and treat my body well so I can stay happy and be the protector and stuff.
	But I know you also have had experiences with stuff with your mother.
	Now that I'm bringing these kids up in this world where they've had a sick mother.
	And I wonder just if there's anything, any advice you have for how I can talk to them, what you wish somebody may have told you as you were navigating this complicated stuff with your mother, because I'll never know what that's like, but my kids are going to be living this, you know? Right, right. Well, I mean, I know I said earlier I wanted to give feedback.
	I want to make sure that you've said most of what you need to say, because if there's stuff in there that you still want to get out, I'm happy to hear.
	No, I think you've heard enough to know, you know what I'm saying, to have a lay of the land.
	I could go on, but they're all just details of like, oh man, that's nuts.
	Every story, you'd just be like, oh, that's crazy.
	She ran from the police one night and she evaded them for 36 hours straight without sleeping, barefoot.
	It was insane.
	But that's just a story and you're like, oh, that's nuts.
	So I'm ready, man.
	If you have feedback, I'm more than ready.
	Well, what's she living on?
	I bought some crypto, so I gave her half of my crypto in the divorce, so she has that.
	And then whatever cash that I gave her in the divorce settlement, and then alimony.
	So there's a little bit, but it's been burnt through significantly.
	I don't have to pay child support anymore, obviously.
	And technically, I'm not entitled to give her alimony because I put a cohabitation clause in the divorce that said if she ever moved in with anybody, that I wouldn't have to pay.
	And she's gone off the radar and she won't give anybody her address.
	And she was living with a friend.
	So technically, I don't even have to pay her alimony.
	But I just did.
	Because again, that's part of this me that feels sorry for her and wants her to be able to.
	Eat and pay rent, you know?
	So, yeah, that is how she is living.
	Okay. Yeah, I mean, just in the present, it's really crazy to me how somebody can be this dysfunctional and still be loose in society.
	I got very angry with the police last week after the ear was bitten, and I said, why aren't you guys looking for her?
	And they were like, sir, you don't worry about our investigation.
	And I was like, man.
	Well, could you just at least have an investigation?
	Like, no one's called me and checked on me.
	And it got infected.
	I had to go, you know, get on antibiotics.
	But yeah, you're correct.
	It's only a matter of time before the envelope is pushed enough to, yeah, she should not be out there as we speak, driving around and wandering around and functioning in society.
	Because she's not.
	Well, she should not be.
	I mean, she's attacking people, biting people.
	She's picking up strangers'kids against their will.
	She's going on wild police chases.
	I mean, somebody's going to get hurt or killed, probably, in the long run.
	You're correct.
	And it's also preventable, and it's just part of the whole crazy world that we live in that you just can't.
	Um, I never knew, like with the legal system, I used to think it was like, oh man, if you do something bad, you're going to jail.
	No, apparently somebody has to pay to get you to jail.
	That's news to me as an adult.
	I was like, wait a minute.
	A prosecutor has to want to prosecute?
	I've got to go down to court next week and convince the prosecutor to press charges still.
	What? We're all brought up with this fantasy TV cop stuff, right?
	Yeah. If you do something bad, you're going to don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
	You're just going to get caught and you're going to get prosecuted.
	And just the facts, and oh yeah, it's all mostly nonsense.
	I mean, if they don't pick you, you're in trouble.
	If they don't particularly care, you're probably okay.
	Yeah, yeah.
	In another world, maybe I'll try taking up a life of crime knowing how easy it is to get away with.
	Kidding, kidding.
	But my God, yeah, so that's scary.
	All right.
	Okay, so you've known her in aggregate for how long?
	20 years.
	Okay, so from late teens to late 30s?
	I can't remember.
	Sorry, I can't remember how old you were.
	Yeah, that's exactly right.
	All right, so what was it that led you to be susceptible to a personality with this potential?
	I mean, whether it's, you know, dominoes from earlier or something later, we can talk about in a bit, but what was it that had you be susceptible?
	Because I assume that she was never...
	Robustly stable.
	That you're correct.
	And what I would say is, you know, a lot of this is my learnings of like, you know, again, accountability and analyzing myself.
	I think, you know, I could be wrong here, but it could boil down to the fact that I was a late bloomer.
	I was overweight until I was about 18 years old, and I still maybe saw myself as that.
	So I just didn't like...
	By the time I was 21, 22, like, I was rocking and rolling, but had only been with, I don't know, hadn't been with enough, like, I'm not trying to say that it's good to, like, go, you know, I didn't date enough.
	I think that's the thing.
	No, dating is fine.
	I mean, you don't want a high sex count, but dating is fine.
	Yeah. Let's just say I had a low enough count, and I had low experience in dealing with women, and so this was the first, you know, eight or above that.
	It completely love-bombed me and gave me full attention.
	And so I was ignoring potential red flags very early on.
	And I think, again, that's a terrible answer.
	I really apologize for saying that.
	But, of course, young men, right?
	Young, dumb, and full of cum, right?
	Like, young men are dumb and horny.
	I mean, to some degree, right?
	So that's all understood.
	Your father understood that.
	Your mother understood that.
	Your older relatives, your grandparents, everybody understands that, right?
	Yeah. So you can't put it on yourself, right?
	I mean, young men with high-quality sexual access, it's like two-year-olds with candy.
	Well, I just didn't have the self-respect.
	Well, no, but it's your family's job to encircle the wagons and make sure you don't fall into a pit of crazy.
	Yes. And honestly, that brings another thing to mind is I noticed being the youngest of five when I was very young and if I did have crushes and stuff, my family would be like, ooh, you got a girlfriend and stuff like that.
	And so it made me kind of keep quiet about that stuff.
	And it didn't encourage a lot of open dialogue with my parents or my mother about navigating relationships.
	Well, that's sabotage, right?
	Yeah. And also, it's diminishing your feelings.
	If you do have a crush on a girl and you're a little boy, I mean, that's really important.
	You don't just do, you know, that's just so retarded.
	Honestly, that's, sorry, that's an insult to retarded people.
	But it is something that you just don't do, because it does cause the kid to clam down and renders the kid to be highly susceptible to manipulators later on, because you are keeping secrets.
	Yeah. Okay.
	What the hell is going on in your family that they're mocking your attractions when you're So So, to be totally honest, and again, you may pick this apart.
	No, no, I don't need the editorializing.
	I'm going to assume you're going to be honest.
	So, whatever you say, to be totally honest, I wonder what you've been doing before.
	So, that's a bad thing.
	And don't editorialize.
	And don't try, like, I know you're going to do this, or you might do this.
	Just let me do my thing, and just give me the facts.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yeah, I mean, youngest of five, and I was kind of the cute...
	Baby of the family.
	And so it was just more like, ooh, got a girlfriend.
	God, sorry, I kept using my name.
	Sorry. That's all right.
	But it was that, it was that like tone.
	And I mean, in terms of why they would do that, I think it was just amusement.
	I mean, it was just, you know, and it wasn't, it was also like, I think my mom just didn't, my mom, it was mainly my older siblings, but if my mom, she would be.
	Curious and ask a lot of questions and I'd just be embarrassed about it.
	And that may have been because of the other siblings with their, you know, the way they, you know, sang about it or whatever.
	So then my mom would go, oh, tell me more, tell me more.
	And I kind of shut down.
	And so, yeah, it kind of, that combined with, again, in my teen years, not being like highly attractive or perceiving myself in that way, it may have shaped how I, you know, how I chose a mate.
	Okay, and how heavy did you get?
	I would say, I mean, it wasn't that bad.
	Like, looking back, I was probably, like, you know, freshman year, I was probably 180 pounds, but only 5'8", 5'9".
	I wasn't obese by any stretch of the imagination, but I was...
	Was that 40 pounds overweight?
	Yeah. 40 pounds?
	Yeah. I mean, that's a lot on a 5'8 frame.
	Yeah, and again, I'm estimating.
	It was like, you know, the kid from Stand By Me, but like, you know, older.
	Okay, so hang on, hang on, hang on.
	So, what do you mean you were estimating?
	Didn't you weigh yourself?
	You mean you'd get weighed at the doctor's, right?
	I knew what I weighed, but I didn't know my height.
	I can't tell you my exact...
	No, you also get measured for height at the doctor's, too.
	Yes, I don't remember.
	Okay. I don't remember what...
	Why do you think you got heavy?
	Were you a happy kid?
	I was in fantastic shape early until I was about 11. I did have a hamstring injury just from a wrestling match on the playground with a friend, and that slowed me down a little bit.
	But I don't know.
	I chalked it up at least at the time to, oh, it's the fat state.
	It happens to a percentage of young men where some young men grow tall.
	And then put on weight, and then put on weight, then grow tall.
	And that had been my paradigm.
	I believed that I had just put on the weight before getting the height.
	Well, yeah, but aren't you talking like half a decade?
	I mean, by the time I was maybe 17 or so, it was definitely not as significant at that point.
	So I was starting to come out of my shell.
	No, no, but 11 to 15, 16 is sort of what I was going with, right?
	Yes. Yes, correct.
	Okay, so four or five years.
	And did you grow beyond 5'8"?
	Oh, yeah.
	I'm six foot now.
	Six foot.
	Okay, got it.
	All right.
	So for half a decade, you were overweight.
	Yes. And how was that allowed?
	It was...
	I mean, your parents were in charge of your meals, right?
	Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I would say that there was a degree of being the youngest of five.
	And also, my parents divorced when I was 16. They were distracted.
	They were not neglectful, but they were distracted.
	And again...
	No, it's neglectful.
	No, come on, man.
	Come on.
	Let's be frank here.
	It is neglectful to let your kid pack on 40 or 50 pounds of extra weight.
	Yeah, I suppose you're right.
	I mean, that's neglectful, right?
	Yeah. Okay, so they were neglectful.
	Yes. And the fact that they were going through a divorce, that's not an excuse.
	No, it's not.
	And again, yeah, with my parents' fault, I guess my point, I'm eager to defend them because I love them and I know they're great people.
	But yeah, as parents, that's a miss.
	So you're correct.
	Okay. So that's...
	That's extra fat cells that are ready to be activated, right?
	So it's a problem.
	And also, it's tough for a teenager to be overweight, right?
	Oh my god, yeah.
	And all my kids, all my friends, all my buddies were killing it.
	They were looking good, and they had grown differently, and they were getting girlfriends, and this and that.
	And yeah, I was invisible.
	That was not...
	And that lens stayed with me for a while.
	It still is here.
	Okay. So...
	That's more than just a miss.
	I mean, that's turning crucial development years into a kind of hell.
	Yeah, you're right.
	I mean, pool parties aren't fun.
	You don't want to go to the beach.
	You don't want to take your shirt off.
	It's self-conscious all the time, right?
	Oh, yeah.
	And all of your friends killing it with the females, and you're like a puddle they have to step over.
	I mean, that's brutal.
	Yeah, it was.
	No doubt.
	Okay, so your parents didn't help you.
	What about your siblings who care about you?
	Um, they were, but around that time, they were at college and things like that.
	Like, they were all, you know, over four years older than me, so I was kind of, I was kind of alone at home.
	Oh my god, man, you were just Mr. Excuse guy.
	Holy crap.
	I just feel like it's not their...
	So they were at college.
	And they just didn't have a relationship with you.
	They didn't have any idea you were overweight.
	They never came back home.
	They never sat with you.
	They never talked with you.
	Phones weren't invented.
	Like, come on, man.
	The fact that some of the college doesn't mean that they can't phone you and ask how you're doing and check on your weight.
	I think they did not.
	They did not think that I would be receptive to their feedback.
	They did not want to offend me.
	And because there were a couple instances where things were brought up.
	And it was awkward.
	And everybody got weird.
	You're so funny.
	When you mentioned the beach thing, I was with the whole family.
	We were at a beach, and I insisted on wearing a wetsuit to cover my body.
	And my brother needed the wetsuit to go skiing.
	And everyone's standing around.
	Skiing? Yeah, water skiing.
	Oh, water skiing.
	Okay, sorry.
	Canada, so got it.
	And everyone's like, give him the wetsuit, give him the wetsuit.
	And I'm like, no.
	And my youngest cousin, because give it up for the young kids, you see it as it is.
	He goes, hey, you're not giving him the wetsuit because you're afraid you look fat.
	And I mean, the entire 12 people all got real quiet and then they just, okay, keep the wetsuit on, we're out.
	And that keep the wetsuit on, we're out is sort of like the, I think, how they handled, knowing, okay, I was not in great physical shape, but they...
	Felt sorry for me and did not want to hurt my feelings.
	Well, no.
	If they didn't want to hurt your feelings, they would talk to you about your weight because that's the best way to stop hurting your feelings is for you to get to a healthy weight.
	Yeah, you're right.
	I mean, they didn't know how to.
	They weren't emotionally equipped.
	Oh, my God.
	Excuse, excuse, excuse.
	But, I mean, it's not like they were bad people.
	You know what I'm saying?
	It's not like they wanted me to suffer.
	And I guess not caring, you could say that makes them not.
	Great people, but to me it's like they felt bad for me and didn't want to upset me.
	So their whole point of parenting was to not upset their kids, is that right?
	Yeah, so you didn't get punished, you didn't get spanked, you didn't get corrected, you never got yelled at, you never got taken to the dentist, you never got taken to the doctor because they didn't want...
	To make you feel bad, right?
	The whole purpose of parenting was to have you not feel bad.
	No, I mean, believe me.
	Did they limit your candy intake?
	You know, what's funny is I didn't eat that.
	I didn't really eat bad.
	I think it was just, honestly, the dumb school lunches because they served ice cream for lunch at school.
	And again, obviously that should have been on my parents' radar.
	But it wasn't like my house was full of ding-dongs or anything like that.
	We had a pretty solid menu.
	They weren't feeding me crap.
	We had seven people up in there on Sundays sometimes eating good meals.
	So it wasn't so much like that.
	Yeah, and again, other things were taken care of.
	You know, I was going to the dentist.
	I was doing all the other things.
	This element was not factored in, but I think they did not know.
	No, you said that they didn't want to make you feel bad, and they didn't know how to talk to you about your weight, right?
	Correct. I mean, you didn't enjoy going to the dentist as a kid, did you?
	No, and they made that happen.
	Okay, so they made you go to the dentist, even though it made you feel bad.
	So they knew exactly how to do it.
	I suppose you're right, yes.
	And also, if there's something you don't know how to do, you hire a professional.
	Like, I don't know how to clean my daughter's teeth, so we hire the dentist, right?
	And so if your kid is having trouble with weight and you don't know what to do, you say, okay, we've hired a nutritionist, you know, we're going to get you a personal trainer.
	Like, if you feel awkward about it, you just, you outsource it to someone else, right?
	Correct, yeah.
	You're right.
	You're right.
	Yeah, I mean, and knowing that, I mean, how do you, like, I guess, yeah, I just don't know.
	I feel like either way should not resent anybody for that, looking back, even though, yeah, I mean, it's clear there was some balls dropped there with raising me, and it could be a cascade of, you know, everything leading to where I am today, which is also...
	I mean, honestly, one of the worst situations of a marriage that I've ever heard of.
	And so I'm asking, what's the genesis of this, right?
	And you say, the first thing you brought up was being overweight as a teenager.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Okay, so that's important, right?
	100%. As a young man, how old were you when you got involved with your ex-wife?
	33 was actually married.
	I had known her a decade prior and we were sort of on and off, but it was normal, healthy.
	And I had been with other, I had like a different long-term girlfriend in my 20s.
	But then, yeah, we like rekindled when I was 33 and I was married probably, or 32 and was married a year later.
	And then now we're at 10 years later now.
	Sorry, I thought you were in your late 30s.
	No, no, no, I'm 43. Sorry, she's...
	Yeah, yeah.
	She turned 42 months ago.
	Sorry, you kind of glossed over the 20s thing there, right?
	So you met her in your late teens and you married her like 12 or 13 years later.
	Is that right?
	Yes, but I had moved away to California and lived a different life a little bit.
	And then moved back to my hometown and that's where we reconnected.
	Yeah, okay.
	So you know this story, I don't?
	Sure, sure.
	So when did you first get romantically involved with this woman?
	Very, very, very first was just like a hookup in, you know, like when I was 21 and she was like 19, something like that.
	Okay, so you slept with her when you were 21?
	Yeah. And she was 19?
	Yeah, and again, yeah, I could have been 22 or 23. I don't know the exact age, but yeah, I was early 20s.
	Okay, and so when you say hookup, what do you mean?
	Yeah, I slept with, yes.
	No, I understand that, but you can sleep together with someone in a relationship.
	I mean, was it just like you went on a date or you met at a party and did it on the coats?
	Like, I'm not sure what you meant.
	There was like two or three months of like us hooking up maybe once a week.
	And then I ended it because I was like...
	At the time, I was in a band, and I was pursuing an actual professional music career, and I was traveling a lot and touring, and it was our plan to move to California and do the thing.
	So I was not, at that time, able to be the person she wanted.
	She wanted a husband and to start a family and do that thing, and that was not what I was...
	Interested in doing it at that time, so I ended the relationship.
	And it was not, it wasn't like dramatic or anything.
	It was like, eh, you know, we're not, things aren't aligning, basically.
	And then I moved back to town 10 years later, and we crossed paths, and then...
	Oh, so you didn't talk for like 10 years?
	Correct, yeah.
	And that's when she went and had a child with somebody else.
	And that's how she was a single mother when I met her the second time.
	But yeah, we did not speak for 10 years, because I was with somebody else, and obviously, yeah, I wasn't going to talk to old flings.
	Yeah, okay.
	Okay, so you got together once a week for a couple of weeks.
	I'm not sure if it was a hookup or a relationship, or what would you call it?
	It would qualify as a relationship to me and my limited experience.
	It was significant, but it was...
	You know what I'm saying?
	Because one of the very few people that I was intimate with.
	So I would call it a short relationship, but a relationship, yes.
	And how long after you were in a romantic situation did it take for you to sleep together?
	Not very long.
	Probably two weeks.
	Okay, so two weeks after you got interested in each other.
	I'm just trying to understand.
	Yeah, yeah, totally.
	Sleeping together, what was the time frame?
	Oh, again, like two weeks max, maybe 10 days.
	Okay, so you were dating for 10 days, and then you slept together.
	Correct. Okay, and then you slept together another couple of times, and then you moved to California.
	Yes. I mean, I moved to California a little later after that, but I had broken things off because I noticed that she became very clingy.
	And was really coming on hard in terms of wanting a relationship.
	And I was not a deeper, committed...
	And I just knew that wasn't in the cards in the near term for me.
	And it wasn't because I wanted to go be with other women.
	It was because I wanted to focus on my career and travel.
	And at her level, her level of interest made me realize very quickly I wasn't going to be able to travel without a lot of problems and also move away one day.
	You know, she didn't have plans on moving to California.
	I knew that was going to happen.
	So, yeah, I was kind of saving both of us.
	Okay, so let's look at those 10 days.
	Because, I mean, I think that's the genesis of it, right?
	At least the sort of first phase.
	So, did she say that she wanted something more than...
	A situationship or a hookup or something.
	Did she say she wanted that before she slept with you?
	No. Okay, so she slept with you having no idea if you were interested in a longer-term relationship.
	Correct. Okay.
	And then she sleeps with you a couple of times and then she starts, you said clingy?
	I mean, she's falling for you.
	She wants something more boyfriend-girlfriend.
	She wants something more permanent, maybe leading to marriage.
	And that's not what you want.
	Correct. Yeah, and it was, for me, going from zero to a hundred, I wasn't ready for that, because again, I still saw myself in a different way and wasn't used to like...
	No, no, you did it, essentially.
	Sure, yeah, absolutely.
	And that was part of, again, yes, you're correct.
	And part of that was out of, honestly, I was trying to catch up.
	And that's not a good thing.
	You know what I'm saying?
	I'm not saying that proudly.
	I'm just telling you, as a matter of fact, as a 21-year-old guy who had not a lot under my belt, I was also...
	Or 22 or 23. Let's remember you're not sure, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	But the point is, I wasn't very discerning at the time in terms of who I was with.
	No, I get that.
	But she wasn't either.
	Correct. So do you think that she knew what she wanted but was hiding it from you or she didn't know what she wanted and even maybe she was surprised at the depth of her feelings or attachment for you?
	I think it's hard to know.
	It seems like it could have been the latter because more of that stuff kind of came out.
	And even after I ended things, there was efforts to...
	To reach out to me and to try and, you know, like she showed up at my house a couple times in the middle of the night, knocking on my window, like stuff like that that was like, hey, get away, you know?
	So then I was like, okay, yeah, this person is definitely more interested in me than I am with her.
	Oh, no, that's kind of stalky, right?
	Yes, 100% is, yeah.
	Okay, so she didn't say what she wanted.
	She kind of sex bombs you.
	She gets really attached, you want to break up, and she gets a bit stalky, right?
	Yep. Okay, and that means also that she's untutored, she's unparented.
	That is a fact, yeah.
	Okay, so what's the story with her parents back in the day?
	So her mother is great, very nurturing, and I think that she was the first father.
	Everything you say about parents other than facts is suspect, just so you know.
	Yeah, I know.
	You're an excuse machine, right?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Okay, so just give me the facts a little bit rather than great and wonderful and nurturing and fantastic and right.
	So, yeah, her mother, I just don't, I don't see a lot of faults with her mother.
	So, again, I could have some blind spots there.
	She was untutored and unparented as a hot, gorgeous young woman.
	That's dangerous.
	You were neglected for health and food and nutrition and exercise, and she was neglected in the wild power that a young, hot woman has in the sexual marketplace.
	Okay, fair.
	Can't let a young hot woman wander around trying to figure out how to make things work?
	Yes. I mean, anyone, but especially that, right?
	Yeah, no, you're right.
	It's a ticking time bomb.
	And I guess her mother is a good person, but was dealing with her dad most of the time they were together.
	Her dad was a narcissist, big shot.
	Owned a company.
	She actually worked for her dad.
	He was a CEO of a company.
	And he...
	Oh, my God.
	I mean, if I told you his story, it's just a whole other show.
	But he left her mother in the dust after I married my ex.
	After we got married, the dad left the mother in the dust for a 22-year-old.
	He's mid-50s at the time for a 22-year-old person in another country.
	I'm trying not to give too much information, but he died.
	Yes, but in 2020...
	Sandals, black socks, loud shirt, ATM card.
	Okay. Yes, but then he went to this other country for an elective surgery and was killed during the surgery.
	And, yeah.
	But, yeah, there's all sorts of anger towards her father.
	Was killed or just obviously died from medical error, right?
	Medical error, but there's still an ongoing lawsuit.
	So medical error, but the bottom line was he lost his life in another country under anesthesia, trying to keep up with a 22-year-old.
	Wait, he was getting some sort of performance enhancing or youthful appearance facial thing?
	Yes, lipo.
	Got it.
	All right.
	Yeah, that whole vacation.
	Package thing that some people do.
	He passed away mid-50s.
	He and her definitely had a complicated relationship.
	Not really.
	Not if he was a narcissist.
	She was scarred by the fact that he ran off with a 22-year-old.
	She even had said to me, you better not do that to me.
	One day.
	So why do you say he's a narcissist?
	I mean, obviously we're talking these terms in amateur fashion, but what is it that you mean?
	He had no problems going back on his word on things.
	Like, for instance, he had agreed to pay off her student loans and then he decided to move into Trump Tower in Florida and just said, yeah, the reason you didn't get that money this month for her student loan is because I'm not doing it anymore.
	And then...
	She got upset with him because he did not pay for her wedding.
	And at the same time, a week later, married this woman and put on a whole charade and she called him out for it and he took her out of his will.
	So he practically had the capacity to disown his daughter for calling him on not doing what I guess traditionally you're supposed to do.
	And his reaction to that wasn't...
	Oh, let me fix this.
	It was, oh, let me take you out of my will.
	You know what I mean?
	And having no emotion leaving his wife who, you know...
	Yeah, he was not a...
	Why do you make me work this hard, man?
	You're killing me here.
	Okay, remind me how long you've listened to what I do?
	Since 2016, probably.
	All right.
	So, a good eight years off and on, right?
	Obviously, it's not content.
	Yeah, yeah.
	I found you when they did their thing.
	I found you.
	Do you know what I'm referring to when I'm like, why do you make me work this hard?
	Well, I'm assuming you're calling me out for my making excuses for people.
	I'm assuming that's the theme that you're picking up on.
	Right. But again, it's in my nature.
	What aspect am I calling you out on?
	Probably related to her mother and parenting, their parenting.
	And again, I've been dealing with these people for a while, and I've seen the bad person and the person who isn't equipped to deal with the stuff that's been thrown at them.
	Okay, you just make a bunch of noise.
	Not always, but in this case, right?
	Okay, so you're saying that her mother...
	So? Yes.
	had a chance to evaluate him, and she also dated, got engaged, got married, and chose to have children and chose to stay.
	Yes.
	Yes. Absolutely.
	Yeah. But again, does that make her bad?
	You could agree that it's a bad decision and it changed everything.
	I mean, no question.
	But in my mind, am I judging that person?
	Talk me through this.
	Do I judge people who screw up through omission for not doing the right thing?
	Of course, we can sit here and look back and go, God, why'd she get married at 17?
	I don't know what she was thinking.
	Hang on.
	Hang on.
	It's not one decision.
	It's not one decision.
	It's a whole series of decisions.
	Because she was still with this guy into his 50s.
	Was he older?
	No, that's about right.
	Mid to late 50s.
	So was he older?
	Yeah, he was older than her when they were married.
	I want to say maybe seven years older.
	Okay, so she's 17, he's 24, something like that, right?
	Yes, I believe.
	And mind you, too, they were in a town of probably a couple thousand, where everybody knew each other.
	Oh, so she knew this guy's nature probably from early on.
	Everybody knows everyone's families and all that kind of stuff, right?
	Yes. Okay, so she had massive amounts of information.
	Yes. And she chose to go ahead.
	Yes. She also took a bit of a shortcut by marrying an older guy.
	So a woman who marries an older guy is trying to jump the queue a little, right?
	Because you're supposed to marry a guy roughly your own age and you go through those early settling down struggles together, but he was further ahead by seven years, which means he's got more career stability, more wealth.
	She can more easily evaluate him in terms of his potential?
	Yeah, I will clarify that his success did come well after they were married, but she was, yeah, able to assess his potential.
	You're correct.
	Okay, so it's a bit of a shortcut, right?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	And her parents should have been protecting her by evaluating him and his family.
	Yes. So, um, and she did choose to date, get engaged, get married, have children, and stay with him decade after decade.
	That's not one decision, right?
	It's many, you're right.
	Well, it's endless decisions.
	Does your ex-wife have any siblings?
	Yes, a younger brother.
	And without getting into details, of course, right?
	Roughly, how's he doing?
	At this very, very, very, very moment, he is doing great.
	But there's obviously more.
	He did have addiction problems that involved a bad accident about 10 years ago.
	Or no, yeah, gosh, almost 20 years ago.
	And he spent time in jail because the person in the car with him was killed.
	Sorry, why didn't he go to jail?
	Because there was alcohol.
	Wait, he was the drunk driver and he got someone killed?
	Correct. Come on, man.
	This is the wonderful mother?
	I know.
	Again, I'm not saying she's a wonderful mother.
	I'm saying she's not a...
	I'm not going to let you get away with that.
	You introduced her as a warm, wonderful person.
	Yeah. I don't know what to say.
	She made bad decisions, and she screwed up, and bad things have happened.
	Yeah, it's her fault, but I'm saying that she's not a person who...
	There are people out there who suck.
	I'm just saying, she's trying to do the right thing.
	She's always trying to do the right thing, and it's the limits of her knowledge and experience to where she's going to make bad decisions and bad things are going to happen.
	I'm just saying, I'm just not faulting her for that.
	You know what I'm saying?
	I'm not, like, but yeah, I mean, the son got mixed up in some bad stuff, and he wound up in jail for a decade.
	He got out and, you know, found Jesus, and he's been clean and sober for eight years, and he's got a family, and he's doing...
	So this woman raised two criminals.
	Yes. I mean, could you just take a fucking deep breath and absorb that and help me understand how that looks from the outside?
	Oh, I know.
	This is the sort of thing, so I will tell you too, my mom comes from, my mom's family would remind you of the Von Trapps.
	You know, German, like six kids, and they're all singing on the hillside and very wealthy.
	My mom had always told me that.
	She goes, there's like...
	She had made those remarks about the side of the tracks that her family comes from.
	That was definitely mentioned.
	I don't know what you're talking about.
	Sorry. My mom had a high horse.
	The thing you're referring to as...
	Have you ever heard of the term redneck?
	Of course.
	There's a component where my ex's side of things has a redneck-y element.
	Whereas my mom had a very, like, upper class, you know, looking down on, you know, it did make me aware of that, that she thought that my ex's family was pretty dysfunctional.
	Ah, okay.
	So when you started dating in your early 20s, you started dating your ex.
	What did your parents say?
	My parents didn't know.
	Again, I was out on the town.
	I wasn't introducing people to my mom.
	Okay, so you weren't close to your parents?
	Not in that respect, no.
	What do you mean, that's the most important thing you're doing as a young man, is the dating that you're doing?
	This harkens back to the early stuff where I wasn't eager to share with them my relationship status.
	It reminded me of when I was a kid and being taunted about it, basically.
	Right. I get that.
	But you lied to your parents.
	You hid things.
	You lied by omission, right?
	Yes. Okay.
	So you can't lie to people about very important things that you're doing and then claim to be close to them.
	Okay. Fair.
	Okay. So we'll have to skip the 10 years.
	She goes out.
	She becomes a single mom, right?
	Correct. And was she married?
	She got married, right?
	Because she said the dad didn't pay.
	So she got married to the guy.
	So she wasn't like a baby mama.
	She was like a divorcee, right?
	No, no, no.
	She was never married.
	Oh, I thought you said the dad wouldn't pay for her wedding.
	Her father.
	When you were asking me why her father's a narcissist, I was saying he didn't pay for her wedding.
	To me.
	Right, so not paying for her wedding indicates she got married to me.
	To the person you're talking to, not the other dude.
	Oh, to you?
	Okay, so sorry.
	So how did she end up as a single mother?
	I broke up with the guy.
	I don't really know much more.
	I actually know the guy.
	I know her ex, and he's cool.
	He's a normal guy.
	Their relationship didn't work out.
	She did claim that he was abusive, but I question that because clearly...
	Things in my world turned upside down.
	So now looking back, I'm like, oh, great.
	She's out there telling people I'm abusive.
	Okay, sorry.
	So when did she tell you that her ex was abusive?
	Probably a year after we were together.
	And how long were you together before you got married?
	A year and a half.
	Okay, so before you got married, your ex, who was a single mother, told you that the father of her child was abusive.
	Correct. Abusive how?
	Verbally. Mostly, yeah, I was like, was there ever any physical stuff?
	And it was all verbal and, you know, the words gaslighting and things like that were used.
	And narcissists, she described him as a narcissist.
	Sure, that's never happened before where women describe their ex as a narcissist.
	But yeah, those are the red flags I'm talking about that you're picking up on it and you're going, why didn't you double click on that?
	You know, and that's a good question.
	Parents, when you met them in your early 30s?
	So, I met them only twice while they were together because they lived in another state and they had come in town.
	And my impression was just, oh, dad's a disconnected, but a big shot, just doing his big shot stuff and got his head in that world.
	The mom just seemed nice, but, I mean, honestly, the mom was attractive, so my friends would go, oh, man, well, you're good to go because you can see what she's going to look like in 20 years, so nice work.
	You know, that was honestly, like, honest answer.
	I thought I had a good future with my current person.
	So, but that's the guy chooses a younger woman mostly for her looks.
	Yes. Huh.
	I'm sure there's no patterns there.
	No, I mean, you're calling it how you see it, man.
	Trying to reflect back the things that you're saying to me.
	And what was your ex's childhood like that you know of?
	I believe peaceful, but clearly not attended to.
	Meaning that I don't believe that there was a lot of attention.
	Yeah, I don't believe she got a lot of attention.
	I think her father and her may have had...
	I actually, I mean, I do suspect some, and I don't know how, maybe through...
	Maybe relatives or some incident only because, like, some sort of sexual abuse, honestly.
	But that could...
	It's one of the problems, sadly, with the very attractive women is that the molesters find them very attractive as children.
	Yeah. And I don't know, I honestly don't know if it was when, if it was when, if it would have happened in her, like, teens or what, but...
	There were certain things that she kind of disclosed to me where she had had some weird incidents.
	And one time we were intimate.
	I'm so sorry.
	You just cut out what you said, and one time we.
	Oh, one time when we were intimate, the word hurt me.
	Quote, hurt me.
	Hello, hello.
	Hey, you sound clean now.
	I don't know.
	No, I think that was at my end.
	I don't know what the heck happened.
	Sorry, you were just talking about how it was the hurt me thing.
	Yes, yeah.
	So I noticed that was uttered at one point.
	And so I was like...
	And she had mentioned a couple...
	I don't know.
	She had mentioned things related to her childhood that were definitely red flaggy.
	But this was honestly during our divorce.
	Oh, right.
	Okay. You know, just everybody's been abused, you know, just like all that stuff.
	In fact, you have no idea.
	But yeah, at the end of the day, I do suspect some sort of abuse could have taken place.
	And like you called it out, yeah, somebody that looks like her, it's not hard to believe.
	Right. Okay.
	So she never directly, but there's indirect sort of evidence, right?
	Correct. Okay.
	All right.
	And... Did she have a lot of other relationships, or was it mostly just this baby daddy?
	You know, not a lot.
	I would say more than me, but not more than most women who look like her.
	So yeah, because she was honestly very conservative.
	She liked gardening and homesteading and being very, you know...
	She wanted to homeschool the kids.
	She did homeschool them for a while, and she did great.
	There was a lot of these sides of her that were very nurturing.
	So the bottom line is, no, I don't suspect that she had a lot of partners.
	But when things blew up, all that kind of went away.
	Like I said, when she went out that one night, I was like, where is she going?
	What's she doing?
	I was concerned there was a side of her that might be a little, yeah, a little, trying to think of the word, but promiscuous.
	Right. Okay.
	But I didn't believe it going into the relationship at 33. I did not have any reason to suspect that.
	Right. Okay.
	You, of course, have mentioned about the marijuana use not being very good for her.
	And what happened?
	What was her drug use as a whole?
	So, she was completely sober, except for would occasionally try out marijuana.
	But she was sober because of what happened to her brother.
	So, she was like, I'm never touching stuff because my brother got somebody killed.
	So, she was sober for a very long time, other than the one time she...
	Yeah, like three or four times she'd pick up marijuana smoking and after six weeks would turn into a mess and create a whole bunch of...
	Sorry, did she use marijuana when she was younger?
	As a teenager, maybe 16, 17 for the first time.
	Not before that.
	So, yes.
	But wasn't like, I don't think habitually, was just, you know, delved a little bit or, you know, dipped her toe in a little bit socially, but wasn't like a stay-at-home, you know, stoner all-day person or anything.
	Okay, so she didn't really drink, she didn't use a lot of marijuana.
	Did she have, what does she do in terms of mental health practices?
	I mean, we all need the right societies trying to make us crazy on a regular basis.
	So what did she do as far as mental health practices?
	Honestly, mostly fitness, yoga.
	That's physical health.
	What about mental health?
	Did she do any therapy?
	Did she keep a journal?
	Did she have conversations about sort of deep, important things?
	What was her moral code or moral structure?
	That kind of stuff.
	So she did.
	She did not do therapy.
	She did journal a lot, and her moral code was very traditional.
	And that was part of the reason.
	That was what I really liked about her.
	She was very buttoned up.
	Sorry, I've got to tell you, I'm a little confused.
	I'm sorry to be, you know, I'm just lost.
	Okay, so I don't know that sleeping with a guy after a week or two and not telling him what you want...
	And then becoming a baby mama and bearing false witness by accusing her ex of abuse, which you think is fabricated, and withholding possible bad sexual experiences when she was younger.
	And I don't see the traditional thing here.
	I mean, isn't it tradition to date for at least a while before you have sex, at least with the purpose of marriage?
	And aren't you supposed to get married to the father of your children?
	Where's the traditional stuff here?
	I don't follow.
	You're correct.
	And so this is where it comes into inexperience on my part.
	No, no, you just told me that she's traditional.
	Her morals are she's very conservative, very traditional.
	Gardening and home school like that, right?
	And I'm saying nothing that you've told me is even at all traditional.
	It's the complete opposite of tradition and of Christianity.
	And then you're like, well, it's my naivety.
	It's like, no, you just told me this, though.
	No, no, no, no, no.
	But what I'm saying is when we were 33 and first got together, it was honeymoon and it was like that for almost a decade.
	No, no, no.
	She was a baby mama.
	You knew that when you got together.
	She didn't hide the kid in a closet, did she?
	No, but what I'm saying is that is something that I...
	I had my blinders on, and I'm aware of it.
	No, no, you saw the kid!
	What do you have blinders?
	So she couldn't have been traditional if she was a baby mama, and she slept with you very early on in your, quote, relationship.
	I believed her words.
	I believed her words, and I was not...
	Acting according to her actions and what I knew of her actions.
	I was believing her words.
	So she said, I'm a deeply religious, highly conservative baby mama.
	And you're like, she's pretty sure.
	Yes. Okay, so why do you believe words?
	And why do you not judge actions when you listen to a guy for eight years who's a staunch empiricist?
	I am going to...
	Honestly, it was...
	That's the question I'm sitting with.
	I mean, that is exactly what I'm sitting with.
	That's part of my own journey of personal development and figuring out, like, yeah, you're saying all the right things, implementing those things into practicality.
	It is something I'm obviously always...
	No, what she's claiming is the complete opposite of how she's lived.
	Yes. That is true.
	Okay, so why do you listen to people?
	Because this is the battle you and I are having.
	It's a foundational battle we've been having for almost two hours, is you keep saying stuff to me, and then the evidence is the complete opposite.
	You live in a world of words and illusions in a lot of ways, right?
	Because you keep saying all of these things, and then the evidence is the complete opposite, and you don't notice the disconnect.
	Like, so you say, oh, no, no, her mother was great, right?
	She's wonderful, warm, caring, blah, blah, blah.
	Well, she did marry a narcissist and produced a guy who killed a guy and a woman who went insane and bit my ear, but she's a great person.
	And you say, oh, well, my parents are wonderful, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
	Well, they did allow me to get fat and they didn't inquire about my dating and they let me kind of wander into some dangerous situations and get a stalker at the age of 22. Yes.
	Right? So you keep saying stuff that's sentimental and it's false regarding the evidence.
	So I said, where do her morals come from?
	And she said, well, she's conservative and this and that and the other.
	Not like, well, she pretended to be conservative.
	Funny story turns out she actually wasn't, right?
	You literally told me.
	I said, where do her morals come from?
	And she said, well, she's religious and she's very conservative.
	Like, you didn't just tell me.
	She was a baby mama who slept with you after two weeks.
	Yeah, so I guess what I'm saying is her morals and the way that she portrayed herself.
	No, no.
	That's not what you're telling me, though.
	No, no.
	I've got to be strict with you, man.
	That's not what you're telling me.
	This is a pattern.
	And I'm trying to help you with this pattern.
	I don't know that you're going to listen, but it's worth a shot, right?
	I'm trying to help you with this pattern.
	That you believe people's self-reporting.
	I'm sure her mother thinks she's a...
	Oh, her mother says, I'm a wonderful, warm, caring person.
	And you're like, sounds good to me.
	And your parents are like, well, we care about you.
	We just love you so much.
	And yet they let you get fat and get a stalker.
	And your ex says, well, I'm religious and I'm conservative.
	And you're like, sounds good.
	I'll believe what you say about yourself.
	I won't compare anything to the facts.
	Yeah, I mean, you're right.
	That's what I'm saying.
	I'm taking accountability for exactly where I've wound up right now.
	You know what I'm saying?
	I've wound up where I'm...
	Bro, bro, you're not listening.
	You're not listening.
	I'm trying to give you a big picture and you're just going off on a tangent.
	I'm trying to give you a big picture.
	I'm trying to give you some self-protection for the second half of your life because it's fucked up so far, right?
	Yeah. So you're calling me to get some help.
	I'm trying to help you.
	Don't filibuster me.
	Now, you don't have to agree with me, but I have evidence for everything I'm saying.
	I'm trying to help you.
	I'm telling you that you...
	Nod when people tell you about themselves and you don't compare their vainglorious claims to their actual actions.
	Because you keep telling me about everybody's wonderful, good, nice, kind, excellent nature, and then you describe actions that are the complete opposite, and you don't notice this disconnect.
	I understand what you're saying.
	And then you keep telling me, well, then I just have to think that they're terrible people.
	But that's bullying yourself.
	Well, if I don't listen to people tell me how wonderful they are and believe it and echo it back to them, then I just have to think they're evil.
	Well, it's obviously not black or white, but that begs the question.
	No, that's what you tell me, though.
	Because when I point out criticisms of people, you say, well, I'm not just going to call them bad.
	Yeah, well, and again, that's where we are.
	That honestly...
	Like, does raise questions.
	Like, what is bad?
	Is bad omission?
	Is bad them not doing- No, no.
	Now you're filibustering again.
	I'm trying to help you, and you keep going off into abstractions.
	Okay, then what do you want me to, how do you, like, I understand, but I'm saying, what do you want me, how do you want me to respond here?
	And I'm not being, like, a smartass.
	I'm, like, genuinely curious.
	I'm trying to help you.
	I want you to get that when people tell you they're wonderful, you agree with them.
	And you don't compare their claims to actual facts.
	So you meet your ex, right?
	You meet your ex after 10 years.
	And you know that she slept with you very early and got kind of stalky, right?
	And didn't tell you what she wanted.
	And then got kind of weird around the breakup.
	And then you don't talk to her for 10 years.
	And during that time...
	She becomes a single mother to a guy she claims is abusive.
	I'm not saying that's all she is.
	Oh, and she was also raised by a narcissist and a woman who decided to give children to a narcissist.
	Which is really toxic.
	Yeah, I mean, again, red flags for days.
	Okay, so red flags for days.
	These are the facts you knew about before you got married.
	Yes. Okay.
	So she says what to erase all of that from your mind?
	Or she just casts those pearly whites in a nice rack.
	Like, what are we talking about here?
	How did she get you to completely erase her entire actual known history from you and admitted history?
	How did she get you to erase that from your mind and you to say, this is a great mother for my children?
	It was a combination of me not thinking enough of myself and then her amazing persuasive skills with words.
	I wasn't confident enough to believe I had other options.
	So everyone has just amazing persuasive skills.
	Her mother, your parents, her, everyone is just able to silver tongue caress you into compliance with their own vanity.
	I mean, I guess.
	No, I mean, believe me, again, obviously, this is a vast picture.
	The person who I am, believe me, I deal with a lot of stuff.
	In these instances, yes, what you're saying is correct, and they've created problems that have cascaded and ballooned, and here I am.
	But I'm saying that I'm a pretty successful guy.
	I'm making deals all day.
	I'm doing work.
	I'm telling people that no and yes.
	Okay, you know you're filibustering now.
	I don't know.
	Could you feel that happening to you?
	Well, I have to explain.
	I have to give you some context to who you're talking to.
	No, you don't.
	Listen, bro, you just gave me two hours of context.
	Yeah, I told you all the bad things that have happened to me.
	And so you're just able to look at it and go, yeah, you made a bad decision.
	But it's like, dude, I've had a great life.
	I'm doing great things.
	My kids are awesome.
	You're reducing me to some bad decisions with bad people where I've let them get one over on me.
	And I agree with you.
	So I'm just letting you know that my every decision isn't driven by people's ability to seduce me.
	That's all I'm just clarifying that.
	But yeah, it has happened and I'm aware of it.
	So you know that's defensive, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	So why are you wasting time being defensive when you could be getting good advice?
	I'm just adding more context to this scenario so that...
	Okay, did I ask you for more context or is that just you trying to justify things based on your ego?
	Perhaps, yeah.
	I feel a little bit attacked.
	And again, all respect.
	I'm not bummed down or anything.
	Am I attacking you?
	Am I calling you a fool or a bad guy or an evil guy or anything like that?
	I guess the main thing is I'm not feeling like there's a winning...
	There's not a response that I'm...
	At this moment, I feel limited in my ability to respond to you, which you would say, yeah, that's it.
	And that's because clearly I'm not equipped, and that's why I'm talking to you in the first place, because you know your shit.
	So I'm stoked, believe me.
	But I also don't, like, you got me.
	Like, I'm like, okay.
	I'm not trying to get you.
	No, I know.
	I'm not trying to help you.
	I'm saying you, I know, I know.
	And you are helping me.
	I'm not in any way, like, again, I'm thankful for all of this, believe me.
	I'm saying you have uncovered some very important stuff, and so I'm like, here for the ride.
	But I also don't have...
	I'm not able to answer your questions because you have clearly unearthed some things.
	So I'm here for it.
	Let's just say that.
	But I'm also like, I don't know what to say because, yeah, you're breaking it down, you know?
	Okay, well, you know, when you don't know what to say, the important thing is to not say things.
	Because that's what I'm calling filibustering, is you're making a bunch of noise designed to distract me from the core issues that we're trying to work on.
	So it's great that you notice that you don't have anything to say, in which case you can just say, tell me more, but don't go off on a filibuster because that's noise, right?
	And I'm not trying to attack you.
	I'm just sort of pointing that out.
	I got you.
	I got you.
	Okay. Because here's the issue, right?
	Obviously, you're not responsible for your wife going crazy, right?
	Obviously, right?
	However, you know, that having been said, if you...
	So I think she put a bunch of delusions about herself forward to you.
	And you accepted her words, not her deeds.
	So you gave her own self-delusions additional power over her and you.
	Because she said, well, I'm a traditional girl, and I'm conservative, and I'm blah, blah, blah.
	To which, you know, I mean, it could be possible to say something like, well, no, you're not, right?
	I mean, with all due respect, I would say this to a woman I was dating who said I'm conservative.
	I'd be like, no, not really.
	Because I remember you slept with me very early on.
	Now, of course, you were in your late teens, so we can understand that.
	But in the 10 years that I haven't talked to you, you did have a number of, I guess, fairly short-term relationships.
	That's not conservative.
	You did not marry.
	You got pregnant before you got married and then didn't get married, and then you claimed that the guy is abusive, and that's not conservative at all.
	And so...
	You know, you may want to be conservative.
	That may be a goal of yours in the future.
	That may be a belief that you have now.
	But it certainly isn't how you've been behaving.
	I mean, just in practical terms, right?
	Because we all have these things that we want to believe about ourselves.
	Right? We all have these things.
	And it's really, really important to say, do they match actual reality?
	Do they match the facts on the ground?
	So that we can tell the difference, right?
	And if your ex says to you, I'm conservative, and it's one of half a dozen things that we've been talking about, but it's the one that's easiest to sort of push back on empirically.
	So if your ex says to you, I'm Christian, I'm conservative, this, that, and the other, then she's putting forward a hypothesis, right?
	A theory about who she is.
	And if you point out, well, no, that's not how you're acting, right?
	If you point that out...
	That it's not how she's been acting or behaving at all.
	That's important.
	Because then she can say, oh, I guess it's easier to describe myself as good than to actually be good.
	Like if good is like not having a baby outside of wedlock and things like that.
	And then she has the difficult task and the rewarding task of saying, I have to actually be good rather than just talk about being good.
	Talk about going to church.
	Talk about whatever, right?
	I actually have to be good.
	And that gives her empirical tests to her ideas about herself.
	Because the one thing that, and again, I'm not saying it's your fault, and maybe it couldn't have been changed at all, but the one thing that happened that I got out of her early conversations was that she was self-indulgent.
	And that is, again, I don't know, it could be organic, it could be the drugs, it could be, but let's just say, That there was some philosophical way to prevent herself, not you, because you can't do it for her.
	But let's say there was some philosophical way for her to prevent herself from going crazy.
	Well, it would be, I have a very odd thought, right?
	I have a very odd thought.
	Let me compare it against reality.
	And we all have odd thoughts, right?
	I thought, hey, I can be a rock star.
	And then I listened to myself sing, and I'm like, hey, I can't be a rock star, right?
	I did the same.
	Yeah, yeah.
	And you went a million miles further in your, quote, music career than my couple of instances with a garage band, right?
	So we all have these theories.
	I'm like, oh, I feel like I could be a good writer.
	Okay, I'm going to write down a bunch of stuff.
	I'm going to read it back.
	I'm going to hand it over to people who know what they're talking about.
	We have, oh, I think I might be good at philosophy.
	Oh, I'm going to write down a bunch of stuff.
	I'm going to put it out there in the world and blah, blah, blah, right?
	So we all have these theories about herself, and we have to test them rigorously against reality so that we don't get vainglorious, right?
	You know, I'm sure that in the music world, right, I'm sure you met about a zillion people who were like, Oh, man, those pop songs, they're so cheap and easy to write, it's ridiculous.
	Right? To which you'd say, well, write some, make a zillion dollars, and then go be a jazz musician and play a thousand notes to three people in a basement.
	Right? So everyone has these theories or these ideas about themselves, and that's good.
	That's part of ambition.
	And what's important, I think, in life as a whole is to rigorously test our theories against Reality.
	So, question for you.
	That sounds exactly right, and it tracks, but do you think that's only a characteristic of highly intelligent people?
	I know you think like that.
	I think like that, too.
	I'm always like, wait, reality isn't matching up with this theory that I can sing.
	No one's agreeing with that, so I'm going to stop.
	But I feel like other people don't do that.
	Is it their fault that if they're like...
	Just kind of dumb?
	And I'm serious.
	I appreciate the filibuster and you getting me to talk about other people, and tempting though it is, I'm going to decline.
	But what I am going to say is that, and you'll hear this when you listen back to this, right?
	Is that you keep portraying people in a certain way, and then their actual actions are the opposite of what you're saying.
	So you don't do this test with people.
	You might do it with yourself.
	I'm sure you do.
	And that's to your credit.
	Yeah. I'm sure you do it in the business world.
	You deal it with crypto, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
	So fantastic.
	But what I'm saying is that in the realm of personal relationships and in particular with women, with women, you take their self-statements at face value and you will not compare what they say about themselves to what they actually do.
	And that puts you at great danger.
	Yeah, and it puts me where I am, or put me where I am.
	So you're correct.
	We can't do anything about that, but we sure as shit can do something about what's coming down the pipe, because guess what?
	You're an attractive, wealthy man, still only in his early 40s.
	Yeah, no, and yeah, I gotta watch out for the landmines.
	And this is, okay, so this is a limiting belief, but I'm just gonna say it.
	Like, my concern is if I have this discernment...
	I'm going to be alone, because, man, in today's age, it is weird out there.
	Like, everybody's got something to want on.
	It is weird out there, and you better stop being able to see the weird, because it's coming for you.
	Yeah. Weird is coming for you, because you've got resources, and you're good-looking, and you're articulate, and you're a very intelligent man, and a great guy to chat with, by the by, right?
	And so, weird is coming for you, and you better be able to scan for that shit.
	And this is what I'm trying to tell you.
	This is the skill, the radar that I'm trying, so you don't fly blind.
	Totally. It's that people will say all kinds of crazy stuff about themselves.
	And you have to rigorously test their theories and statements about themselves with actual, tangible, practical, factual, empirical, testable reality.
	You're right, man.
	I'm over here emoting, but it's like, man, I'm going to be alone.
	No, but this is your black and white thinking, which I completely understand.
	And obviously, look, we don't have to get into this because you're a smart enough guy to do this on your own, but I guarantee you this was a demand of your mother's.
	You had to support your mother's self-perceptions or she would have rejected you, which is why if you don't affirm...
	Yeah. Yeah.
	you were not wrong.
	I mean, that's something I need to delve and unpack on my own, but I think you're 100% correct.
	Yeah. And you'd be like, come on, pull the other one, man.
	I mean, you can do it nicely.
	You can say, listen, I understand that might be a goal of yours.
	I get that.
	Or maybe this is something you've changed.
	But help me understand what is conservative about your life's choices so far.
	Help me understand what is Christian and conservative about your life's choices.
	I don't see it, but I'm sort of happy to have it explained to me.
	All the old explain it to me like I'm five years old or Jesus or both or something like that, right?
	But you have to have that filter because you've got four kids under your care, custody and control.
	They cannot take another crazy woman.
	They cannot take another crazy woman.
	So you, the way that we keep crazy people is they say a bunch of stuff about and you say, I don't really see the evidence.
	I'm sorry, I'm just getting to know you, but help me sort of, help me understand how this has shown up in your life.
	And if they get really angry, then they're crazy and you get them away from your kids.
	Yeah, you run.
	Well, and truthfully, I think I had in my early childhood this upbringing of, you just don't question adults.
	Right. And that was what my parents And so that was instilled, and therein lies the beginning, the genesis of a problem, because you're right, I couldn't then say, reality isn't matching up with this observation that I'm seeing right now before my eyes, because it was always, whatever dad and mom say goes.
	We're old school, or whatever.
	Right, right.
	Yeah, and that's not fair to children at all.
	Because we are out there in the wild.
	Like, it's one thing for your parents to say, you have to trust us completely.
	Okay, then you cannot mock your children's dating preferences and then abandon them to the fucking sharks of the free market of dating hell out here, right?
	Yeah. It's one thing to say, kid, I got your back when we go out into the lion-infested jungle and then turf the kid out with no cover.
	Yeah, and it's funny because I am, with my boys even, my second grader, if he has a crush, I'm like, hey man, just let me know.
	We can talk about it.
	Cool. But if you don't, that's cool too.
	I'm so careful because I'm like, I don't want that to happen to them, where they feel embarrassed or weird.
	I'm very mindful.
	Yes, but you also are not particularly, and listen, you're a great dad, so this is just a tiny, tiny tweak, but you do want to say it's really important to talk to me about this because it is.
	Okay. Right?
	Because the saying is like, well, fine, if you don't want to talk about it.
	No, it's really important that he talks to you about it because, you know, he can get his heart broken at grade two as easily as grade 12. Yeah, no, you're totally right.
	Yeah, I guess my initial thing was like, just at least let him set, I'm setting the stage for comfort and openness and that.
	But yeah, it's something I plan on when, you know, definitely being involved in their, you know.
	Yeah, because I saw what happens when you don't.
	Right, right, right.
	So, yeah, so listen, I mean, my particular thought and theory is, I mean, it sounds like, obviously I'm no expert in any of this, it's just an amateur idiot opinion, but, I mean, it sounds like your wife is gone.
	Yes. Tipping point has passed, and whatever she's done, maybe it's drugs, maybe it's really bad behavior, maybe it's criminal stuff, I don't know, right?
	I mean, it's hard to verify any of this kind of stuff, right?
	But it sounds like she's, you know, off the deep end, and it doesn't sound like she's coming back anytime soon.
	I mean, again, I don't know, but that would be my, obviously, idiot guess.
	Yeah, I'm not counting on it, that's for sure.
	Obviously, I don't know what to do about anything to do with that other than, you know, it seems wise to do what you can.
	She's probably going to be safer in some sort of lockup than she is out on the streets because it's not just the self-harm.
	You know, she's speeding away from cops at high speed.
	She could plow through a kid's playground, right?
	Oh, my God.
	Yeah, exactly.
	So we don't want any repeat of what happened to her brother, right?
	No. So, yeah, I mean, it seems like that might be a good idea.
	Obviously, trust your lawyer's advice and your own instincts and all of that.
	But, yeah, just in the future, you know, because you're an attractive, intelligent, wealthy, great conversationalist, excellent guy, women are going to come floating into your orbit and they're going to have a whole bunch of stuff to say about themselves.
	Be skeptical.
	You know, skepticism is really, really healthy and important.
	It is really, it's, you know, the only people who are bothered by skepticism are narcissists.
	And, you know, for the sake of the kids, I'm going to strongly urge you to be absolutely free to be skeptical.
	You know, like if somebody comes to me and says, I'm skeptical.
	I don't think you're a good philosopher.
	I'm skeptical that you know what you're talking about at all.
	I mean, am I going to get mad and throw things and storm out?
	No, like, hey, skepticism is the essence of philosophy.
	You should be skeptical.
	Right? And so I really, really want to give you skepticism that was not allowed to you as a kid.
	You just had to nod when people praised themselves because otherwise you'd probably get attacked or feel abandoned.
	And all of that was an essential survival mechanism.
	But that which allows us to survive difficulties as a kid often puts us in danger as an adult.
	And I just really would want you to have that skepticism because you're going to meet some new woman and she's going to be great and she's going to be sexy and she's going to be articulate.
	Silver-tongued devil that she might be, the succubus of syllables.
	And you are going to need to be skeptical.
	And that doesn't mean be hostile, right?
	But, you know, anyone can say anything.
	I mean, if you've worked in the entertainment business, I mean, how many people think that they have the best screenplay and the best song and the best, you know, whatever, whatever?
	It's like, yeah, I mean, lots of people say that, and there's nothing wrong with a little bit of self-promotion, but people certainly at this age, you're not gauging people based upon potential, but what they've actually done.
	And that's really, really important.
	And your ex had all the track record for massive skepticism.
	All the track record for massive skepticism.
	And it struck me, of course, that you sympathize with the mother who was married to the narcissistic, creepy weirdo, passport bro.
	And then you also sympathize with your ex who just had an abusive father of her child.
	And, you know, like, you got to be careful with this kind of stuff because, you know.
	A woman's strength is in her pretend weakness, right?
	Yeah, that's heavy, man.
	And again, I really, really do, like, what you're saying is resonating, and you also walk the walk.
	I've heard you describe how you, you know, in your relationship, have been able to, you know, have a great life with a great person.
	So it's like, it's possible.
	And I don't like it when people who aren't in those positions are giving me advice, but somebody like yourself, I'm like, yeah, man, he did it right.
	So I'm not, I can't argue.
	You know, it's like...
	And you're telling me the how.
	You're not just saying, do this.
	You're telling me how.
	You're saying, find a good person, but use skepticism.
	Right, and listen, when I first told my wife my ambitions, she was like, she had some skepticism, and I'm like, yeah, good.
	I do too, if that's any consolation.
	Yet still, I'm going to have these ambitions, right?
	So yeah, skepticism is important, and skepticism is not hostility, because you want someone in your life who welcomes skepticism, right?
	Because... The only thing that was partially staving off your wife going crazy earlier was her saying, oh, bad thoughts are coming back.
	But she didn't somehow have the strength to really resist the bad thoughts.
	Now, again, I don't know if it's biochemical.
	I'm no expert.
	But from a philosophical standpoint, the ability to resist crazy thoughts is a muscle that has to be developed and maintained.
	It's a muscle that has to be developed and maintained.
	It atrophies.
	And the unfortunate thing with very attractive women, and, you know, very attractive men, I'm sure you've, you know, you're a good-looking guy, so I'm sure you've had your share of this as well, is that they don't get a lot of pushback, which is why a lot of crazy women believe a lot of crazy stuff.
	Like, a lot of hot women believe a lot of crazy stuff, because men won't push back, right?
	You know, like that hot woman I dated who was like, yeah, I'm psychic.
	And it's like, no, you're not.
	By the way, I've heard you talk about that, and it's so deep and it resonates because it's so true.
	The reality distortion field, that is hotness.
	It's fascinating.
	Right, but that's why the hot, crazy matrix exists.
	People think it's just somehow built in.
	It's like, well, no, because we all need reality pushbacks, right?
	And it's a delicate operation, but it's how we show our caring for each other is the reality pushback.
	And it would have been interesting to see, of course, it's an alternate history, so we don't know, and that's sort of my final thought here, but it would be interesting to see what would have happened if you'd gotten into philosophy before you remet your ex and she tried selling you on who she was, and you'd have been skeptical and pushed back.
	It would have been interesting to see.
	She might have just run away, or she might have started to develop the muscle of being skeptical about her own claims.
	And being skeptical about your own delusions, which we all have, It would be interesting to see how that might have played out going forward.
	Of course, we'll never know.
	And again, it could be entirely organic and philosophy is not a magic shield.
	But I find that for myself and for those around me, skepticism keeps us sane.
	Amen. That's awesome.
	I agree completely.
	All right, brother, is there anything else that you wanted to mention?
	I really, really appreciate your time today, and I hugely appreciate your openness in this very difficult situation for which I have massive sympathy for everyone, of course, in particular, the kids.
	Yeah, the kids.
	No, I mean, really, that's it.
	Honestly, while it's like I have your ear, I could talk to you about a gazillion things for days.
	But really, I just want to thank you because I know you got a lot going on.
	You have a busy life.
	You're out here doing great things.
	So I thank you for doing what you do because, again, I found you.
	And it did honestly help me.
	There was parts very early in this divorce where I was trying to unpack everything going on.
	And I found a video where you're talking about borderline personality.
	And you were talking about somebody getting out of a relationship, and you said something, I will never let this person get in my way between me and reality ever again.
	And those words, you saying that, it just really melted into me.
	And I was like, okay, I cannot let anybody get between me and reality again.
	And you've kind of solidified that even in this conversation, but it's powerful stuff, for sure.
	Well, I appreciate that.
	Obviously, if you get a chance, keep me posted about...
	How it's going.
	And I wish you and your family the very best and great job at keeping them safe.
	All righty, man.
	Well, have a good one.
	And yeah, maybe I'll follow up in like six months and give you a check-in.
	Yeah, or you can just drop a line in Skype and let me know how things are going as well.
	Either way is fine with me.
	Okay, perfect.
	Sounds good, man.
	Bye. All righty.

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