Sept. 6, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:33:42
5628 My Girlfriend LIED to Me! Freedomain Call In
Hello Stefan,This is time-sensitive, as I likely will make a decision within a week. Here is some background:I've been seeing a girl long distance for several months. I am physically fit, have a solid income, and work full time after completing my undergrad. We briefly met on a dating app in college and rekindled the relationship over a year later. Our relationship is long distance, so we call regularly, and I visit each month as my work schedule allows for decent time off.We share many values and goals, and both come from similar backgrounds—our families are together, and our parents haven't divorced. We don't have political conflicts, and she agrees with me on most values. Both of us intend to have kids, and I see being a father and husband as one of the grandest honors a man can ever have.The shared values and character traits I perceived in her made me think I had a real catch on my hands.She recently invited me to meet her family, where I had an excellent time. They all live near each other, so I had a real trial by fire in an extended family reunion. Nonetheless, we all enjoyed each other's company, and her father particularly seemed to enjoy my company.There is another upside to this situation: Although I am an atheist and she is a Christian, she saw past this. After the first two months, I told her about my atheism. Although unexpected, she was understanding and wanted to continue seeing me. This has been a dealbreaker for people in my past, so her acceptance was significant to me.Now, here's where I am conflicted. When we met, she told me she was waiting for marriage. I was happy to hear this as I have been as well. It has been a serious struggle for me, but I knew I wouldn't endanger my future marriage over something temporary.However, after last week's family meetup, she revealed that she is only NOW waiting for marriage. As recently as the beginning of this year, she had not abstained. She has a body count of 3, and in her last three relationships, she has only partially abstained, given her Protestant view of what is and isn't sex. This revelation has left me very conflicted.I recognize the tentative nature of my situation and wonder if I might not find someone who shares all my values, especially given our age. I wonder if I am asking for too much, particularly from someone who understands my lack of religiosity.Part of me says I'm young and have time to try again—this is what the gambler in me says and what most men I trust in my life suggest. The other part of me, which cares for her very much, doesn't want to end things. Some of the women in my life have expressed that I should forgive and forget.Well, Stefan, do let me know what you think. Your advice is truly appreciated.GET MY NEW BOOK 'PEACEFUL PARENTING', THE INTERACTIVE PEACEFUL PARENTING AI, AND AUDIOBOOK!https://peacefulparenting.com/Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!Also get the Truth About the French Revolution, the interactive multi-lingual philosophy AI trained on thousands of hours of my material, private livestreams, premium call in shows, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!See you soon!https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2022
All right, do you want to just start off by reading the email and we'll take it from there?
Yeah, sure.
You know, before we start, could I say, I want to say thank you for all your content.
You know, when I was younger and kind of had some harder times, you were really a good, you gave me a lot of hope and a lot of tools to face life with reason.
So really, I wouldn't be the man I am today if it wasn't for you.
So thank you.
I really, really appreciate that.
Thank you.
That's very kind.
Okay.
So, um, yeah, I'll read my letter.
Um, so I've been seeing a girl long distance for several months.
Um, you want me to include the ages or no?
Yeah, ages is fine.
Okay.
Uh, so I'm 24, she's 21.
Uh, I gave you a little bit of background about myself, but we met on a dating app in college.
Um, we didn't talk after I moved away.
Um, about a year, she reached out again, rekindled.
Um,
Overall, we share many values and goals.
We both come from similar backgrounds.
Our families are together and our parents haven't divorced.
We don't have political conflicts.
We really agree on a lot of that stuff.
She's also into peaceful parenting, which I really love.
She agrees with me on most values.
Both of us intend to have kids.
I see being a father and a husband as one of the grandest honors a man can have.
The shared values and character traits I perceive in her make me think I really had a catch on my aunts.
She recently invited me to meet her family.
I had an excellent time.
They all live near each other out in the sticks.
So it was a really big family reunion, a very big meeting.
But that said, it was a really good time.
Everybody enjoyed each other's company.
So there's another upside to the situation.
I'm an atheist.
She's a Christian.
She saw past this.
I told her after a few months.
She didn't quite ask, but although kind of unexpected, she was understanding.
I've had this happen in the past.
It's been a deal breaker for people I was seeing, given my values and the pick of people.
That's not a deal breaker for me at all.
I don't mind that she's a Christian, and I was glad that she didn't mind that I had these views on faith as well.
Now, here's where I'm conflicted.
In our first conversation, she told me she was waiting for marriage.
She didn't know my thoughts on it at all, so it was sort of unprompted.
Uh, but it actually made me quite happy cause I am as well.
Um, it's been a struggle for me, but I knew I want to endanger my future marriage over something temporary like that.
Uh, so however, my last at the last week's family meetup, she revealed to me that she is only now waiting for marriage.
Um, as recently as recently as the beginning of this year, she had not abstained.
Uh, she's been with a few people, uh, her several of the last three relationships, uh, somewhat recently.
She hadn't, um, part of this was that she doesn't have, uh, she has more Protestant view of what sex is.
You know, it's not too uncommon nowadays.
Uh, so yeah, it was left kind of conflicted.
It was kind of a shock.
Um, I don't, I'm not really looking for someone that actually has a body count of zero.
That's not, um, it was just surprising to me.
Um, so I recognize, sorry to be so indelicate, but so what that means is she's remained, she's abstained from.
regular old sexual intercourse in terms of penis-vagina, but she has engaged in other forms of sexual intercourse, or she's not a virgin with regards to penis-vagina sex?
I'll keep it brief.
Yeah, so she actually has slept with someone in that way, the first one, but after that she said she regretted it.
That was when she first got to college.
But every relationship afterwards, it's been oral with, you know,
Pretty much every relationship she's had.
So.
Okay.
Got it.
Yeah.
And so what is her number of sexual partners, including the oral?
Three.
Three.
Okay.
Sorry.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
So, uh, part of me says, so yeah, I recognize the tentative nature of what my situation is.
Someone that shares my values.
Um, so, and also I, my family history, um,
A lot of the men have picked the wrong women, and I really want to be sure, you know.
Part of me says, I'm young and I have time to go and look again, you know.
A lot of the men in my life say, yeah, you probably should do that.
A lot of the women in my life say, oh no, body count doesn't matter at all.
That's obviously not true, but this is... So, yeah, I don't know.
I think 21 in three is kind of more than I expected.
But yeah, please let me know what you think.
Your advice is truly appreciated.
Right.
Okay, so the issue is not, as far as I understand it, that she had consensual sex is not great, obviously that's not what you're looking for, but it's not, as far as that goes, it's not a moral issue.
Consensual sex is not a moral issue, foundationally.
And again, I'm not saying there's no morality involved or anything like that, but it wasn't like she said... No, I subtly agree.
Like, lying is not something you get arrested for, but it is not nice... Well, no, no, hang on, hang on.
No, that's not the category I was talking about.
We'll get to that.
So, the first category is consensual sexual encounters by adults, right?
So, in no way is that a UPB violation.
Right now, we can say it's unwise, right, but it's not...
It's not a UPB violation, it's not evil, right?
We can say, again, it's unwise.
It's like overeating, right?
Assuming you have to assume the cost of your own healthcare, it's unwise to overeat, but you can't, you know, you can't go around arresting people for overeating, right?
Oh yeah.
Okay.
So, consensual sexual activity is not immoral.
The deception is the issue, if I understand this.
I'm not saying that the sexual activity is not the major issue, but I think that one of the bigger challenges, if I understand this correctly, and it's your heart, so tell me if I'm wrong, is that you feel deceived.
Yes.
She didn't actually technically lie to me, but yeah, it was kind of a shock.
I don't know if I would have considered it a long... Lying by omission is a sin.
Okay.
No, I mean, it's wrong.
If you say things that mislead people, right?
And that's wrong.
In some ways it's even worse than a direct lie.
Right?
So there was a YouTuber named Sandman who once told the story of a friend of his who would go through the garbage
In a bank machine, you know, when people do their deposits and then throw out the slips.
And he'd find some guy's deposit slip with a crazy high balance, you know, like a million dollars or something like that, right?
And then he'd go and ask girls out.
They wouldn't particularly want to go out with him and he'd say, well, let me at least leave you with my number.
And he would take this, the banking slip with the crazy high
Bank balance, and he would write his number on that, if that makes sense.
And I suppose it worked to some degree, because he kept doing it, and I suppose some women would be interested in the fact that he was a millionaire, although he wasn't, right?
That they would be impressed that he would be a millionaire, and maybe they'd go out with him, and I don't know, maybe they'd sleep with him or whatever, right?
And then they would be upset when they found out he was broke, right?
Now he would say, hey, technically I didn't lie to you.
Yeah, yeah, I see what you mean.
So yeah, you can see why I feel the way I do.
Well, it's like if somebody dresses up as a police officer, right?
And then they say to someone, you have to come with me.
And they say later, yeah, you're not a police officer.
It's like, hey, I never said that I was.
Yeah, absolutely.
No, I would treat her a little bit differently.
But yeah, it was a show.
Surprising to me.
So.
OK, so give me the sort of timeline to understand the sort of sequence here.
So, the timeline was, you meet her, you get interested in her, and when in that meeting and getting interested, when did you find out that, or when did you have the conversation about sexual activity prior to marriage?
That was maybe our second or third call.
So, that was about four or five months ago.
Right, okay.
So, she said, I'm waiting until marriage.
Yeah.
Now, for every man, in general, that means no sexual activity.
Yeah, that's what I would think.
Right.
So, she said, she didn't say, I'm waiting for intercourse until marriage.
Yeah.
Right?
She said, basically, I'm waiting until marriage, and to every man that means, well, anyone, that means I'm refraining from sexual activity until I'm married, right?
Now, obviously, if she'd kissed a guy, that wouldn't be the end of the world, or... Oh, that doesn't bother me at all.
A grope or two or whatever, right?
But I think it's fairly safe to say that sexual activity that leads to orgasm is in the category of sexual activity.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, she did mislead you, and it was a lie.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah, I agree.
Because if you say something that has a general meaning, and then you say, I've redefined it, that's not the same as telling the truth.
Yes.
Like if you say to some woman, I'm super rich, right?
And then, I don't know, she goes out with you or whatever, based partly on that, and then you say, no, no, no, I have no money, but I'm rich in friendship.
I'm rich in life experiences, right?
I mean, this is all kind of goofy examples, but that would be a lie, right?
Yeah.
Like the guy who shows up at the bar dressed as an airline pilot,
And, you know, get some woman's number, and then she finds out later he's never an airline pilot, and he's like, I never told you I was!
It's like, but you were dressed as an airline pilot!
Come on, man!
Don't, give me a break.
So, that is a lie.
Now, I don't know what the story is with the younger generation, whether, no, to me, it's no sex before marriage.
It's not no intercourse before marriage.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I think that the term colloquial means the same thing.
My generation, obviously it follows the trend line.
There's a lot more promiscuity every generation.
Um, but no, I don't think that term has really changed in meaning.
That said, I mean, you know, I could have asked, so.
Well, but it's a little, it's a little indelicate, right?
Of course.
Yeah.
It's not, it's not the most enjoyable conversation to say, okay, so when you say no sex before marriage, I'm going to need some diagrams.
Oh yeah, hey, this is my first time chatting with you.
Please, draw it out.
No, no, that's not appropriate.
Yeah, that's awkward, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So, if you had, and it's always hard to say this in hindsight, right?
But if you had found out that she had had this oral sex encounters and so on, if you'd found out about this early on...
If she'd said, look, I don't want to have intercourse before marriage, I fooled around fairly, you know, in fairly frank ways, but I haven't had intercourse, what would you have thought?
You know, it's hard to say, like you said, what I would have done.
I'm not so much, I don't have the expectation that just given the situation of the market out there, you know, that that's, uh, zero is the goal.
But had she told me I would have felt a lot better.
Um, I might've, uh, so seeing it's long distance, um, maybe I would have pursued her gone less out of my way.
And, but cause I was sort of going after her when I thought she was, uh, when I thought this about her at least, um,
I still think we would be where we are though, had she been honest with me.
So it's not a total deal breaker, it's just less attractive, is that right?
Yeah, exactly.
She's pretty, you know, but I know I've seen men in my life choose the wrong girl for looks.
She's not the prettiest girl I've been with, probably of my serious relationships the least, but still pretty enough, you know, and this made
The difference for me, I remember a friend of mine from college, a good buddy of mine, he met her, and I asked him his opinion, because I trust him, and he's like, listen man, overlook the looks, she got everything else he likes.
And I very much agreed, but it would have been more on the edge, you know?
I really don't know if I would have continued or not.
Watch out for the hype, man, because if you get some short queen, you might have a short son, and that can make life kind of challenging.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Did I say she was short?
No, no, you didn't.
I'm just, I just wanted to throw that out there as a general.
Listen, I'm Napoleon Height.
Uh, so she's just about a little bit shorter than me, but I can introduce.
Sorry, something happened to your connection in your microphone.
It just got all buzzy.
Oh, that's strange.
Can you hear me?
Uh, yeah, but it's buzzing like crazy.
It's very weird.
Okay.
Uh, just check and figure out what's going on.
Yeah.
If I disconnect it, I wonder if it's going to have any trouble.
I can't do it this way, so we'll have to do something else.
Do you want me to just give you a call back?
Sure, yeah, let's do that.
All right, I think we're back and good, just waiting for the recording to start.
Yes, so she's attractive enough and that's fine and you know, I mean, that's fine.
I'm a big fan of physical attractiveness, but you know, it's a passing phase and it's a long time to spend, you know, 50, 60 years is a long time to spend with someone who just looks pretty.
No, no, peace of mind is worth way more than looks.
Okay.
Alright, so, tell me how it came up and how it was discussed, this revelation.
Sure.
So, I was, you know, holding her.
I mean, it's not... I don't do anything with, you know, genitals or anything, but I was holding her and she was... maybe she felt guilty, I can't quite say, but... or maybe she was suspecting, but...
No, it is true.
I haven't done it with anyone else.
It has been tough with 24, you know, but yeah.
So she asked me, actually, and that's how it went down.
She asked you what?
Oh, she, sorry.
She asked me if I'd been with anyone else.
She was like, are you sure?
You know?
Um, sure.
I like that.
Oh yeah.
Well, now you mentioned it.
There has been the whole football team, but other than that.
Okay.
Sorry.
Yeah, no, she asked me, are you sure?
And it's like, oh yeah.
You know, like one, two, three.
No, no, no.
That's not what happened.
Um, and I told her like, uh, yeah, I'm pretty sure.
And, uh, I can tell you how the conversation went down.
It was, um, she told me early on in college, there was one guy.
She gave me the gist.
I was shocked.
I was kind of.
Bothered but I thought about and I said, you know, sorry hang on.
I told you there was see this is too fast.
So she told you She said there was one guy Correct.
Okay, and that one guy did she say we had sex but not intercourse No, no intercourse.
So
Yeah, that's a good way of phrasing it.
Yeah, no, she went all the way, she was drunk, she told me in college, yadda yadda, same old story.
But I thought about it.
Same old story, like I've been in the daily market in the last quarter century.
No, if you listen to like those like Red Pill channels, it's like, oh my god, I was just, he took advantage of, she didn't say that, but yeah, she broke up with the guy the night after, she tells me.
I think it's hard to say if I can trust her.
I believe I can, you know, but also my intuitions, my, I know that I'm human and I, even though like my feelings say, yeah, I can believe what she said.
I know that, you know, that only goes so far.
Um, yeah.
So she said it was one guy.
Um, and I thought about it and I'm like, listen, if I was in a slightly different situation in my life at some point, I certainly would have given in and I'd be in the same boat, you know?
Uh, and then, um,
Later in the conversation she asked... Sorry, but did she say that she was unable to consent because she was so drunk?
No, she did not.
So, what does the drunk thing have to do, if it's not rape, then she consented, right?
Is she saying that she has a diminished capacity to consent because she was drunk?
I know you probably didn't get into this in super great detail, but just in general, I'm trying to understand the drunk thing.
Sure.
Yeah.
I think it was implied that, hey, you know, I wasn't in my best mind decision-making.
She didn't blame the guy.
She didn't say it was like, he took advantage of her.
He did say she was pushy or he was, she did say he was pushy, but, um,
She did take responsibility for it and say that she deeply regretted it.
Okay, so if she took responsibility for it, how does the drunk thing show up?
Because drunk sounds like an excuse.
I'll just be frank with you.
Drunk sounds like it's an excuse, and if it is an excuse, then she had a diminished capacity to consent.
Yes, yeah, I see what you mean.
Yeah.
I mean, it is like saying, I'm not at fault for crashing the car because I was drunk.
Yeah, yeah.
Right?
So if the drink was enough, that it's an excuse, if she was so drunk that it was an excuse, then she had a diminished capacity to consent.
And that makes the story a whole lot creepier.
Okay.
So that's why I'm sort of zeroing in, because I'm not saying this is the case with her, I don't know, but a lot of times women will want the best of both worlds, right?
You know, the old equality when it suits them, right?
Not all, right?
Not all.
Lots of exceptions, but some.
So my question is, what I'm sort of trying to figure out, is her level of honesty when telling you she'd been dishonest?
Yeah.
So if she said,
I had diminished capacity, it wasn't my decision in a way, because I was drunk, right?
That's one thing.
Then that's terrible, and the guy took advantage of her in a pretty sinister way, right?
Yes, yeah.
But if she's saying, I had diminished capacity because I was drunk...
But I take full responsibility, then that's a contradiction.
That's why I'm curious about the drinking thing.
Because it sounds like she wants you to think that she had sex because she was drunk, and she wasn't really fully consenting, and therefore she has less responsibility.
But then, unfortunately, you have to look at her as a victim of quasi-rape.
Yeah, yeah.
Which is not particularly appealing!
So I'm trying to sort of figure this out.
Agreed.
If that makes sense.
Yeah, you know, frankly, I'd have to ask her, maybe, but it's a weird topic to bring up.
No, no, you've got your instincts, brother.
You don't need to ask her.
You've got your instincts.
You were there.
So what was she trying to do with the drunk story?
Trying to lessen the blow, you know?
I think that's what it was.
Okay, but she can't lessen the blow.
But she can't lessen the blow, that's the problem.
Right?
Because if she lessens the blow, then she did not consent.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah, it was a...
It was like a sensitive thing to discuss with somebody.
I didn't go into detail, but yeah.
That's also a problem.
So I'm trying to sort of figure this out, right?
Sure.
If she says, well, I was drunk then.
Okay.
So then you can say, okay, so you didn't really, you didn't really choose it.
So you're not responsible in some ways, in some ways, because you didn't really, you didn't really, um, consent, right?
I should be excused because I was drunk.
Okay, so you're saying you're less responsible because you didn't consent because you were drunk, but then the guy took horrible advantage of you.
So, I guess my question is, is she saying, I have diminished responsibility, but I don't want to be viewed as a victim, because you can't have both.
That's a good point.
So what's your sense?
Did she, was she assaulted in some way?
In other words, a man had sex with her when she was too drunk to consent, or had diminished consent, let's say.
Right?
So was she drunk enough that she can be forgiven for not choosing it, but then we have to look at her as a victim of a kind of sexual assault?
Yeah, yeah.
The way she described it, it seemed like she was not blackout, but impaired enough, you know.
Okay, so then she was kind of assaulted, right?
Yeah, maybe, yeah.
Well, I think that if the woman can't consent, and you know, this is all fuzzy stuff, and... You know, when it comes to alcohol, you know, it's self-sustaining, you know, like, I don't, can't say.
No, but if, this is why I'm curious about the drunk stuff.
Because people say, I was drunk, in order to diminish responsibility.
And women with regards to sexual activity will say, I was drunk, and then they have diminished responsibility for choosing sex, right?
But if they have diminished responsibility for choosing sex, then they had less consensual sex, right?
I won't say non-consensual, I don't know what the degree is, but the degree to which they claim that they can be excused for their behavior because they were drunk, they were drunk, is the degree to which the sex is not consensual.
I was so drunk I didn't know what I was doing.
Okay, then you didn't choose to sleep with the guy.
Yes, yeah.
But then he kind of assaulted you.
And we're not talking about legal proofs at a court of law, I'm just talking about morally.
Yeah.
So how did you feel when she was talking about being drunk and having intercourse?
It made me look at her differently, you know?
It kind of bothered me.
I didn't see her as a victim, honestly.
If I got drunk and did that, I wouldn't see myself as a victim, you know?
Well, but it's different for men.
Yeah, we initiate, true.
Well, not necessarily.
Men can certainly be raped.
But women can have sex performed upon them when they're largely incapacitated, but it's fairly tough for a man.
You know, alcohol impairs erection and blood flow, and I guess there is sort of forced erections and so on, but it's just more complicated.
The woman can, in a sense, do it, but the man has to be a little different.
Sorry, go ahead.
Yeah, the way she told me it, it didn't seem like, oh, she was laying on the couch and a guy just started with her.
That didn't seem like the case.
It seemed more like just the way she was describing it.
As much detail as I've given you is as much detail as I was given.
Well, as much detail as you asked for as well.
Correct, yeah.
And I'm not criticizing you for that.
It's a delicate situation.
But, you know, I'm not in the situation, so I can be obviously a little more direct and frank about it.
Yeah, I'm just, I guess I'm concerned about the manipulation part.
Yeah.
And if I didn't ask, by the way, I would only know about the wine.
Was it consensual or was it not?
And if she says, well, it wasn't hugely consensual because I was drunk, it's like, well, then I have to look at you as having been preyed upon.
Yes.
And then if she says, no, no, no, I wasn't preyed upon, it's like, well, then what's the drunk thing got to do with it?
Yeah.
It makes me worried about accusations, you know, like, Oh, well, if you regret it, would you, uh, accuse me?
Not that I am, but you know, it's just those things like that.
It makes me.
Well, you know, the best of both worlds people, and in this case, it's a woman, right?
The best of both worlds, people are disingenuous.
They are, uh, they're a little slippery.
They, there is a circus, you know, if she said like, let me give you another example.
If she said he was so hot, I just couldn't say no.
Right?
Then she would say, I was incapacitated by lust.
I had no free will because he was just that hot.
Okay, then that would be a little tough to accept, right?
So if she says, I was somewhat incapacitated by alcohol, she solves one problem, which is of choosing, but she creates another problem, which is she might have been assaulted in some way, right?
Yeah.
So, do you think, or when you sort of look back on this, is your instinct that she says she was drunk just to diminish some responsibility, but she wasn't too drunk to consent?
I think it's the former.
My opinion on how drunk you have to be to not be consenting is pretty bad, so I don't think she was there.
Okay, so then the question is, why would you bring up the alcohol?
Well, that's because she wants an excuse, but she doesn't want the responsibility or the issue of maybe having been assaulted.
Yes.
Okay, so that's, and again, she's a young woman, and so I sympathize, you know, but that is a problem, to me.
And the problem is, it's not insurmountable or anything like that, but
What happens at the beginning of the relationship has a very, very important effect on how things go in the long run.
Correct.
Yeah.
And so the question is, to me, how does it work if she, in a sense, gets away with this?
Yeah.
Right?
If she can just say something like this, right?
And it's fine.
It's like, okay, I get it.
I accept.
I understand all this kind of stuff, right?
That's tough.
Yes, I absolutely agree.
You know, something I was struggling with was, um, she knows this is a value of mine and she knows that it's difficult for me.
Um, and I don't know how she would feel knowing that I'm compromising on this.
And frankly, I'm okay with, uh, in certain situations.
Cause I feel like there's very few that are left, you know?
Um, but maybe I'm wrong like this.
Oh no, that are like, that don't have a body count at 21.
That is like small numbers, you know, but not very common.
But, uh, um, and as I get older, it'll be harder and harder.
So yeah, I'm not, I'm okay with, you know, uh, them having a past, you know, and you're right.
The dishonesty is frankly what bothers me.
Um, it was a shock.
So.
Right.
Now, I say this with the caveats that she's a young woman, and, you know, as an attractive young woman, it's pretty tough, in particular for men, to be frank and direct with her.
I mean, the truth kind of bends around young women, which is one of the reasons why it's tough to hold them quite as accountable, in my view.
But of course, it would be her father's job.
To talk to her about this and say, okay, if the alcohol was an issue, then we need to start looking into legal action.
If the alcohol wasn't an issue, then you can't use it as an excuse.
Yeah.
So, okay, so, not, I mean, in my view, not a deal-breaker, but you'd have to be pretty firm, I think, and say, this can't be part of our relationship, this having it both ways kind of thing?
Yeah.
Okay.
Alright, so, then the question is...
You found out about the first guy at the party, and sorry, how long you were holding her, so you were sort of there, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, and it's also not probably, it's also not entirely accidental that she'd tell you when you were there, rather than at a distance, because then, you know, she's with you and there's all that happiness and excitement and all of that sort of stuff, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So I asked her for about 10 minutes, you know, Hey, are you sure that was the only one, you know, cause I, I know that I multiply by three, you know, with women sometimes, I was really, really wanted to be sure.
And, uh, then I'm like, okay.
And, you know, I got, I was like, okay, I think that's not a deal breaker.
Um, and then towards the end of the night, she asked me, um, I don't think she was asking as if,
She wanted us to do it, but she asked, to clarify maybe, I can't quite say, but she asked me, okay, what about oral sex, you know?
Sorry, it's easy to misinterpret that question.
Sure, yeah, yeah, fair.
She said, when it comes to waiting till marriage, because she knows that's what I want and that's what both of us want, what about this?
And I'm like, yeah, that includes that.
And she said, okay, red line.
And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait, stop.
Sorry, what does redline mean?
Oh, redline is in we're not gonna do that sort of thing in our relationship until marriage, you know?
So, sorry, she says what about oral sex and you say that's a no-no and she agrees with you?
Yeah, she says, okay, agreed.
Sorry, who said redline?
Uh, she did.
Sorry, is my audio okay?
Sorry, I'm trying to follow the conversation.
I'm sorry if I missed something.
She says, what about oral sex?
And you said what?
Um, I said, um, yes.
Yeah.
I was, I was, it was sort of a snarky, like, uh, yeah, that's included, you know?
So, um, that's what I said.
Then she said what?
Then she said, okay, that's a red line.
As in, we're not going to pass that.
As if for clarification, right?
Okay.
So she said oral sex is an absolute no-no before marriage.
She was asking me and I clarified and then she said, okay, agreed.
No, but she said red line, didn't she?
She did.
Yeah.
So, and that's what was confusing me.
So she said red line as in that is a line I will not cross before marriage.
I think she meant more in our relationship.
No, no.
Otherwise she would have said not with you.
Haha, yeah.
No, no, I was the one shooting her down.
That's how the conversation went, you see.
You were the one shooting her down?
What I was saying was, she was asking to clarify for the future, and I said, no, I'm not interested in that.
Does that make sense?
I thought I had it, now it's gone again.
Okay, let's go back over the combo again.
So, you're sitting there, you've had the conversation about her and the drunk intercourse, right?
Yes.
Okay.
Also, I assume that the drunkenness did not mean that the man didn't use protection, right?
But anyway, okay, so... Correct, yeah.
You have the conversation about the drunk intercourse, and then, at some point later in the evening, is that right?
Yeah.
She says, what about oral sex?
And you say, no, that's included.
No oral sex before marriage either.
And she says, red line.
She says, quote, got it, red line, as in, she understands.
Oh, so got it, it's a red line for you, or it's a red line for her, or both?
For me, for me.
I believe that's what she meant.
That was, I'm quoting exactly what she said.
Okay, so when she says red line, she's not saying that's unacceptable, she's saying, I've got it, for you, it's a red line.
Yes.
Okay, so that's, so then you're kind of admitting it, right?
Absolutely, yeah.
Although she's not being clear, she's not saying, I get it, it's a red line for you.
Yes.
Because when she says redline, it sounds like, yes, I agree.
That's unacceptable.
In which case, you would think that it hadn't happened, right?
Yeah.
So this seems to me like another manipulation.
Again, I'm not saying it's a deal breaker, but it does seem to me like another manipulation.
Because redline sounds like, oh yeah, I agree.
Yeah.
Like if a man says to his wife, no matter how bad things get,
I'll be honest, I don't think that's how our conversation went.
If a man says to his wife, I don't care how bad things get, we don't have affairs, and she's like, red line!
Right?
Then the man thinks that she says, yes, I agree with you, affairs are completely unacceptable, but if she's actually saying, oh no, that's just a red line for you, I can have all the affairs I want, that would be deceiving, right?
It would be deceptive.
Okay.
So she says red line and is this, this is, it sounds like you were reading something.
It wasn't text though.
This is just voice, like talking in face to face, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So then she says red line.
Got it.
Okay.
So that's unacceptable.
And then what?
And you know, I'm not an idiot.
So I asked, Hey, so like, wait, wait, wait.
How many times have you done that with the guy?
Like that's a, that's an obvious omission, you know?
Uh huh.
And, uh, she's like, um, I forget how she phrased it at this point.
It was a little bit difficult, but the long story short, the last two relationships she's been in.
So two people.
And, um, she said, yeah, but I don't think it's really sex.
Really?
So then if you marry her and then you give and receive oral sex from another woman, that's not cheating.
Yeah, that's a good point, Steph.
This is all post-Clinton stuff, right?
So, I mean, this is ancient history for you young people, but of course, Bill Clinton received oral sex from Monica Lewinsky repeatedly, and then his defense was, that's not really sex.
And so then a whole generation of young liberal women, I'm not saying she's liberal, grew up with this bizarre defense of oral sex is not sex.
But of course, every woman knows
That if she comes home and she finds her boyfriend or her husband giving oral sex to another woman, she's gonna be outraged and upset and enraged and, you cheated, and right?
So everybody knows that, right?
And generally, the sex stuff is the stuff you can't do in public, right?
So you can kiss in public, right?
You can have passionate kissing in public, right?
But you can't have oral sex in public.
So, of course it's sex.
I mean, of course it's sex.
I mean, this is ridiculous to think otherwise, right?
Of course, yeah.
Okay, so she said with two other guys, right?
And now she said relationships.
Did you get any sense of how long these relationships were?
Yeah.
One of them was only about four months.
Another one seemed to be a few months.
I can't say if it's a year or not.
And I do know she told me the longest relationship she was in was a year.
So one of the three was a year.
I don't know which one.
So she spent a part of a year giving or receiving or both oral sex with a guy?
Yeah.
I didn't ask how much.
Frankly, I didn't know how much it mattered to me, how many times it was.
I think just with another person is, you know, fun.
Yeah.
And she, did she go through a phase of lapsed Christianity?
I'm trying to figure out.
Oh, no, that's the weird thing.
Well, she's no longer Catholic.
So, her family was raised Catholic, now she's a prot.
So, yeah, she's a non-denominational.
I think she's the only one in her family.
So, maybe that's related.
I can't quite say.
Okay.
Now, does she think that God views it as not sex?
I think so.
In that conversation, I think so, because the way she phrased it, and she says the Bible doesn't say anything about it, and I'm like, uh, are you kidding?
You know, but, yeah.
Okay, so she thinks that God looks down with approval at women who commit to not having sex before marriage who have oral sex with guys.
Yeah, that's how she phrased it to me in the moment.
We've had a follow-up conversation about this last night, actually.
And, uh, we can go to that if you'd like, but.
Well, uh, so is, is it the case for her now that oral sex, even if you, if you, if you wanted oral sex, let's say you guys continue on your relationship and it, you know, you become boyfriend and girlfriend.
I'm not sure if you are, you are, you are at the moment or no.
Yeah.
She asked me, so when are you going to ask me to be my girlfriend or ask us to be official just before this conversation?
So.
Oh, just before this conversation.
Oh, it's a good thing we waited.
Yeah.
Hang on, so if you decided that, I'm not saying you should, or I'm just a theoretical, right?
So if you said, I'm fine with oral sex now, I'm good with oral sex now, let's do it, what would she say?
She would probably be okay with it.
Okay, got it.
So for her, it's not a red line.
Anymore.
Correct, yeah.
Okay, so at least she's not hypocritical that way.
Like, I let my last boyfriends have this kind of sex, but you, as the good guy, have to wait, right?
That would be... Yeah, that's what I told her.
I'm like, listen, I mean, I'm waiting, but you're telling me you did it with every guy before me, and now you're telling me you're waiting?
That's offensive, you know?
Hang on, hang on, what was that last thing?
Now she's waiting?
Yes, now she's waiting.
That was the impression.
That's what I told her, you know.
No, no.
Sorry.
I thought you said that if you wanted oral sex, she would do it.
Yeah, that was... Is she waiting or not?
I don't know.
So confusing.
Sorry.
Yeah.
That was... I said that to her last night and I don't think she would...
Turn me down, is what I'm saying.
Like, I would bet like 90 cents.
Okay, so she's not waiting.
Correct.
Yeah.
Okay, so the waiting is on you, and she'd be okay to, she'd be fine to go ahead, right?
Correct.
Yeah.
Okay, got it.
So, I'm a bit confused then when you say, she's fine with everyone, but not me.
Yeah.
Because that sounds like she's not waiting.
Yeah.
Okay, so is there a reason why this is so confusing?
Because I'm normally pretty good at this stuff, but I feel like my head is spinning.
No, no.
Sorry, Steph.
That's just on me.
It's a little bit emotional right now.
Well, then tell me about your feelings!
Sure.
You know, I've been having trouble sleeping and eating, you know?
You know, there's a line that you have, your definition of love, you know?
An involuntary attraction to virtue.
I have a involuntary revulsion to vices.
Not all vices, but like sometimes I've pursued women that I shouldn't, you know?
Not in a long term way, but every time I got close.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And every time that I got close, I literally felt like I was going to vomit, right?
So, I get that feeling now, talking to her sometimes.
And I think it's just because it's so recent, you know.
Uh, well, but when did you first find out about her drunk sex?
A few days ago.
Okay.
All right.
Yeah.
Just a few, a few days before, uh, a week ago now.
Four months.
Right.
Okay.
Got it.
Got it.
And when
I mean, obviously I can't tell you what to think or feel, but my first thought would be, when she did confess, after being kind of misleading, when she did confess to the sexual activity, after you'd been together for four months, and obviously you'd fallen for her pretty hard, did she acknowledge it as at least a little bit deceptive and apologize?
I could have been more clear, I can see how you would understand that, I could see how you could see it that way, or I wasn't particularly clear.
And the reason you would suspect that she was not telling the truth consciously is that she brought it up tentatively, right?
Yes.
No, she did do that.
She did apologize for being unclear, but it wasn't a great apology, you know?
I felt like I was lied to, and I don't know if she knows that she really accepts that she lied to me, you know?
So what did she say regarding, I know it's hard to remember sometimes verbatim or maybe you have one of these great memories for this stuff, but what did she say about misleading you?
Um, she said, I'm sorry.
I should have told you earlier.
And I should have told you this before I asked you to make us serious, you know, and make us committed.
So, um, she then said, if you'd like to break it off now, given this, that's I, she'd understand.
Um, and that was the conversation more or less.
Okay.
And did she ask you how you felt or, or what you were thinking or?
No.
Okay.
And how did you feel?
Um,
It kind of challenged my natural optimism about the world, you know?
The world?
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
The world.
Seriously.
Yeah.
She's got the whole world in her hands.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I mean, yeah, it's just like, I, I did my vetting really well.
Um, and I was surprised it was all, you know, it's like, man, if I do my best, how did I miss this?
You know, that's how I was feeling.
Was there any indications prior of anything deceptive about her?
There were two.
There's only really one, one little thing.
Um, when she first told me, she really emphasized that she did not want, um, she thought it was wrong to bring a kid in this world irresponsibly.
And she really, really didn't want that.
And I thought it was.
Sorry, who said it was wrong to bring?
Uh, she did, she did.
She said it was wrong to bring a kid into the world irresponsibly, right?
Yes, like with the wrong guy, yada yada.
So.
Okay.
Um.
I mean, that's almost a tautology.
It's, it's bad to be bad.
It's wrong to be irresponsible.
Okay.
Correct.
Yeah.
And how was that before?
There was in that, it wasn't deceptive.
No, no, no.
I'm just saying this is the only possible thing that I can think of right now that I could have picked up on earlier.
And well, uh, you know, oral sex doesn't create kids.
So that's kind of a.
That's a strange thing to bring up.
Oh, so sorry.
It's wrong to bring a kid into the world irresponsibly.
That was related to the oral sex?
I think so, yeah.
Let me explain.
My motivation is that I know that it decreases the likelihood of a successful marriage.
I think it has certain impacts in the brain.
I'm a numbers guy.
Her motivation seems to be that when she told me about this, this was what she said, she said that she cares a lot about children and she doesn't want to bring one into the world irresponsibly so they have a good upbringing.
Which to me seemed like a strange thing to bring up in a way, in the context of saying you're waiting, this was when we first met, you know, in the context of saying I'm waiting for marriage.
Because in the back of my head I'm thinking,
Well, oral sex doesn't bring kids into the world, you know?
So, that was just a thing in the back of my head I never asked about, you know?
Not that I really should have anyway.
Okay, got it, got it.
Alright.
Do you know why her prior relationships ended?
The first one was because he slept with her and she made it clear that she did not want to do that before marriage.
The second one, I don't know.
I didn't, I don't quite remember.
I think she told me.
And the third one, the guy moved away.
Um, so he was going to the military or something and she didn't want to do that.
So.
Sorry.
I'm back to being confused about the first one.
Yes.
Um, she broke up with him because she broke up with him.
Correct.
But she said she broke up with him because she didn't want to have sex before marriage.
Yes.
But she chose him, right?
Because she wasn't assaulted, right?
Yeah.
Because breaking up with a guy who has sex with you while you're half passed out or unable to consent, because you don't want to have sex before marriage, makes perfect sense to me.
Yeah.
But if she consented, I mean, I could understand breaking up with the guy, but breaking up with the guy because you chose to have sex with him, I am, I'm back to being confused about this again.
Yeah.
Yeah, I am too.
Because if he had sex with her and she didn't consent and he took her virginity, right?
When she didn't want to give it because she wanted to wait until marriage, then that's a horrible thing, right?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Okay.
So she broke up with him because she didn't want to have sex with him?
Well, the way I could see it as having gone down is the way I interpreted it was, um, if I was in a relationship and I made it clear I was waiting,
And my partner kept pushing me and I did it, I gave in or something.
I would be very offended that they didn't also help me achieve that goal.
So I would break up with them too.
You know, that's, that's all I saw.
But you would break up with them before you would consent, right?
Yes, I would break up before I consented, but even afterwards I'd be like, I don't know, you didn't respect my boundary, you know, or cause boundary, I mean, it's a two way street.
You didn't respect my boundary starts to get back into assault territory.
Yeah, yeah.
If she said, yes, I want to have sex, then she obviously was not assaulted, right?
Yeah, I mean, consensus isn't always verbal, you know.
Now, she could say, I was so grossed out at me enthusiastically handing over my virginity, then she could say that, right?
Yeah, yeah.
But she didn't.
Yeah.
So again, let's just say hypothetically, Stefan, let's say that she did get assaulted.
Yeah.
Um, it would be understandable that she would not want to talk very much about it.
So maybe we need to discuss more.
I don't know.
Um, yes.
Now, why is it that women, uh, a lot of women,
I think they know it at a certain level that it's not just a number, you know, that it actually does matter.
Oh, the assault thing.
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
Let's say that she was, in part, sexually assaulted.
Right?
Why would she have a particular hesitation talking about that with you?
I don't know.
There's a few reasons, I guess.
But, um... What are you thinking?
I'm not sure.
Well, there is the question or the issue of being perceived as damaged goods.
Yeah.
So one of the reasons that men will often recoil, and I'm not, this is not a moral judgment of anything, I'm simply talking about causality, right?
So one of the reasons that men recoil from women who've been sexually assaulted is it usually indicates
Some significant sexual dysfunction or predation in their childhoods, right?
Yeah.
And secondly, it has a significant potential to disrupt pair bonding and to disrupt normal healthy sexual relations in a marriage.
Yes, yeah.
Right?
Because if the woman was assaulted,
And in a sense, her body was weaponized against her and she has a horror and flashbacks or whatever it is, right?
Then that is going to interfere with the normal, natural, healthy sexual functioning in a relationship.
Yeah.
Right?
I mean, I remember a guy I knew once telling me that his wife had been sexually assaulted in her youth before they met.
And he felt, he said, I feel I've been paying for this for the last 20 years.
Also, it means that the woman was not street-proofed or did not have usually a strong guardian male around, a father, or could be uncles or whatever, right?
To keep her safe.
And that means that there's probably some significant family dysfunction.
Hmm.
If that makes sense.
Yeah, that's a good question.
That's a very thing I should look into for sure.
Um, I will say like anecdotally after meeting her family and it's only one meeting, you know, and the way she talks about them, uh, she really has a lot of reference for her father and the way I, what I met them.
I mean, it was far happier than my family.
Um, one of the happiest families I've seen.
So maybe, maybe that's just a good first meeting, you know, but I can't quite say.
Well, I mean, as you know, families can look a whole lot better than they are, right?
Correct, yeah.
Okay.
But in terms of, you know, female sexuality is a beautiful, wonderful force of nature, but it's easily turned awry through predation.
Yeah.
And, you know, that sort of beautiful, wonderful pair bonding, because, you know, female sexuality is a lot of time based upon being relaxed and comfortable and secure, and if a woman has been preyed upon, it can be pretty hard to get to that mindset.
Yeah.
You know, it's like trying to make out with an army veteran in the movie Saving Private Ryan, like watching that movie.
It's not going to happen, right?
Yeah, yeah.
I see what you mean.
So one of the reasons why women have a tough time talking about being preyed upon
Is because of the issue that the man looks down the tunnel of time and says, okay, so if she was assaulted or preyed upon, and you know, I can have sympathy for all of this, of course.
Right.
But, and, and, you know, but you can have sympathy with someone without wanting to marry them.
Right.
And then the man looks and says, okay, so what is this going to do to my, my sex life for, for my life?
I mean, am I going to have to wrestle with this for the next half a century?
Absolutely right.
Yeah.
And so that's again, I was bringing up the alcohol and it's like, Ooh, you know, you can dial down your responsibility, but that dials up your trauma.
Yeah, that's true.
So that's another reason why, and this,
You know, of course, you know, she should never have been in a situation where she's ever less than fully consensual.
Right?
Which means, you know, this is the conversation that parents have with both of their children, like both sexes going to college or moving away or whatever it is.
It's like, you know, don't go to parties too much.
Don't drink too much.
Keep your wits about you.
Recognized as predation, right?
Leave if anything weird happens.
Don't be alone with a guy who's drunk at a party.
Don't be alone with a woman at a party.
Like, just basic common sense.
It used to just all be common sense stuff, right?
Like the Mike Pence rule, in a way, but for universities, right?
So, the question is, how did she end up in this situation?
And again, this is not blame the victim, and I don't even know if she was a victim, but it's really about prevention.
Philosophy is about prevention.
And so, did she have the conversation, did her father have the conversation with her and say, here's how young women can get into trouble?
Right?
Don't be alone with people at parties.
Don't drink too much.
Right?
Don't go into the coat room, right?
Stay with the crowd.
Leave if you feel anything uncomfortable.
If the guy's getting too drunk, disengage.
Right?
This is all just basic protection 101, right?
And it's the same thing for men, young men.
Right?
Don't be alone with a woman.
Don't initiate any romantic or sexual contact with her when she's been drinking.
Make sure she's keen on whatever it is you're doing, right?
All this stuff.
Yeah.
And so, if she did end up in a situation... So, did she say she was at a party?
Yeah.
Okay.
So, how do you have sex at a party?
I mean, I've been to a lot of parties in my youth.
I mean, do you sneak off to some bedroom and lock the door?
Did the guy come with protection?
Like, how does it happen?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, uh, like I said, like a living room and he has sex with her.
Right.
I assume that that would, cause that would be a party from hell.
Right.
People would stop that.
Right.
Yeah.
So how, how does this actually happen?
She must have gone away with him someplace.
It could have been like a small country party, you know, with the friends at the, at the lake house or something, you know, I don't know, but, um, but then you're in a situation where there's alcohol and private bedrooms.
Yeah.
Right?
So, obviously, if, and this is another thing, if she wants to not have sex before marriage, which I think is great, then why is she putting herself in situations where there's, it's late at night, there are private bedrooms, and she's drunk?
Yeah.
Right?
It's a choice.
What it tells me, Stefan, is that, like, I value, maybe she just doesn't take her values very seriously.
I don't know.
Well, or it could be, so either her father didn't give her any of these instructions, which is, you know, Parenting 101, right?
Yeah.
I mean, you... Like, I never got those instructions, but I kind of figured it out, you know?
I have a brain.
Right.
No, but she says she has a good family, right?
Yes, yeah.
Okay.
So, the question is, if she didn't get these instructions, the parents are woefully negligent.
I mean, especially these days, right?
There are crazy STDs around, there are stalkers, you can get your nude self photographed when you're passed out, and it can be shared all over social media, there can be unjust accusations, legal issues, getting kicked out of university, like, there's massive, massive problems around unfettered sexuality
And alcohol and drugs, right?
Young people have said, we don't want any chaperones.
And so the chaperones have to be the HR department, the provost and the police.
So you have to have those conversations with your kids.
It also means that her boyfriend's... If her boyfriend was taking advantage of her when she was drunk, then she has a problem choosing quality people.
If she told him repeatedly she does not want to have sex before marriage, and he had sex with her when she was drunk, then he's an asshole.
He violated her.
Yeah.
Right?
Now that means that his family didn't have
The basic talks about self-protection with him.
Because that could have gone seriously sideways, right?
Oh, yeah.
It would screw everything, yeah.
A false accusation kills you.
Young men's lives, well... The real one is terrible.
Yeah, I mean, who knows, right?
These are the things that's kind of impossible to prove, right?
This is why these situations are so horrible, right?
It's kind of impossible to prove.
It's he said, she said.
That's not enough usually to convict in a court of law, but it sure as hell can get you blacklisted and kicked out of university, right?
Yeah.
So it means that either she or he, and probably both, put themselves in horribly dangerous situations.
And that speaks to either, like, let's just talk about her, right?
So then either her father did not give her these instructions.
Which is, I don't even understand how that's possible these days.
Everybody knows that young people are out there sex crazed and, and you know, there's all of this internet weirdness and like, it's just bizarre, right?
And I mean, so there is a lot of danger out there in the sexual world, particularly for young people, right?
So either her father did not give her these basic protections or he did, but she didn't listen.
Yeah.
Now, if she had this massive issue, which is a huge issue, right?
If she has this massive issue, the question is, did she talk to her family about it?
In other words, how deceptive is she?
Has she, I mean, did she talk to her parents about her decision?
And obviously parents shouldn't get details or anything like that, but her parents are Catholic, right?
Yes.
Yeah.
And Catholicism, there's no oral sex asterisk to get out of no sex before marriage, as far as I understand it.
Yeah, I was raised Catholic.
Okay.
That's true.
Oh, did she talk to her parents about her decision to engage in sexual activity against their teachings, against their values, against what saves her soul in their eyes?
And did she say, already now you say, Oh, but that's none of the parent's business.
And it's like, well, I'm not sure about that entirely.
Right.
Especially if they've given her counsel against these kinds of things.
Right.
And also it would be for her father to help her process this, and her mother too, of course, right?
To help her process this and also to teach her how to talk about it going forward.
Right?
And to say, look, if you were not able to give consent, we need to protect other women from this predatory young man, right?
Yeah.
Because if he has sex with women who are too drunk to consent, he's an asshole and should face the consequences.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
And if she did consent, then they have to say that you cannot use alcohol as an excuse.
And you should never tell anyone that alcohol was the reason.
If alcohol was the reason, this guy preyed on you and we should deal with that.
Somehow, right?
I don't exactly know how.
If alcohol was not the reason, then you shouldn't talk about it and make excuses.
Yeah.
And it sounds like she did not have these conversations.
Yeah, I don't think so.
Okay, so she has kept this information from her parents who raised her with particular values, right?
And that seems important, which means that there's a certain amount of deception or upholding from her parents.
I will say that it might be possible that they didn't raise her with... Sorry, go ahead.
Yeah.
It might be possible.
If you go through... She's been confirmed, so she's been through the whole Catholic education.
That would be taught to you.
It's impossible not to be.
Right.
I did notice we went to have a meal, and there was like no prayer said before the dinner, so it seems that they're more laxed on their faith, you know?
So that's possible that maybe the dad never had to talk about it, or it could have just been that the church said it, but the family didn't, I don't know.
No, no, but sorry, the talk I was talking about was not the no sex before marriage talk.
Although that's pairing yourself to avoid these problems.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like don't do things that like don't play Russian roulette.
Yeah.
Right.
Don't play Russian roulette.
There are, you know, and this is something, honestly, you know, we, as men, we learned this pretty early, right?
You smack talk, you trash talk, you're going to get beaten up.
Yeah.
Right.
Right.
No.
So, I mean, don't, don't we learn that pretty early on that there are really bad consequences to making bad decisions?
I agree.
Right.
So men, we learned this pretty early that, you know, I mean, this is what you sort of notice on the internet, that people say the kind of things that they never would say in person and certainly for men, right?
Because for men, we grow up as boys with the constant threat of violence.
Now, I don't mean that people are shaking their fists in us every day.
But if you push too far, if, you know, everybody knows that you insult someone's mother or you, you know, you just go too far and you got a fist to the face, right?
So we learn to moderate our behavior because we live under the threat of blowback.
And girls don't.
At least in the same way.
And so this is why having to talk with girls is even more important because we learn early on that we have to be careful.
We have to be cautious.
We have to be alert.
We have to be situationally aware, keep our head on a swivel.
That's just being a guy, right?
And it's not like it's not a paranoid life because once you learn the rules, it's pretty relaxing or you can go and have fun and all of that, right?
But you don't trash talk someone's mother or you don't.
Trash talk their girlfriend.
You're right, you don't.
You know, I mean, how do boys deal with terrible rumors being spread about them?
They beat people up.
Right?
How do girls deal with it?
Yeah.
Well, they spread other rumors or like, there's just not the same kind of physical blowback, right?
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
So that's why it's more important.
Because the stakes are way higher when you're a young woman than they are when you are a little boy.
Worst that happens to a little boy, you get a bloody nose, maybe you lose one of your baby teeth or whatever.
Not good, but it's not the same as sexual assault.
So that's the question.
Did she keep this from her parents?
Do her parents know?
Now again, I understand people say, ah, but you shouldn't be talking about your sex life with your parents.
It's like, well, I get that, except that the sex life is theological and your parents raised you to love God and Jesus, right?
Correct.
And it sounds to me like she never told her parents that she lost her virginity in a consensually questionable manner.
Now, my guess is that she wanted to in the moment and regretted it later.
Yeah, I agree.
Rather than saying that, which is tough to talk about with a new guy, right?
Yeah.
Right?
Because if she says to you,
If she says to you, I was very enthusiastic about sexual activity, but boy did I regret it later.
How comfortable does that make you as a male?
Not at all, yeah.
Right.
Because if she's, and the other thing too, if she has told people this story, now you don't know this guy, right?
But if she has told people this story, that she was in part, she had sex because she was drunk, which is the claim of a lack of consent at some level.
If she's told this story to people who know who the boy is, that's pretty bad, right?
So if it was consensual, but she's saying it only happened because I was drunk or I have diminished responsibility because I'm drunk, which meant I had diminished consent, then she's, in order to excuse her own behavior, she's half-painting this guy as a half-predator.
Yeah.
No, definitely.
How does that make you feel?
Oh, it makes me feel terrible.
You know, I don't, um, what, what could she say about me?
What happens when things get tough?
Right, right.
If she has regret with you, now again, you can say, well, we'd be married by then or whatever it is.
Right.
But yeah, but even then, you know, that's not good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Now, so that's her, that's her side of things as far as I can see.
And so I appreciate you going into this level of detail, awkward though the topic is, I, I get that.
So I appreciate that.
Now let's talk about your side.
Okay, so how long into being interested in her and talking with her did you find out she was Christian?
Very early on.
Yeah, so I also, Stefan, full consent, full clarity.
I am absolutely guilty as well.
Okay.
I mean, I'm pretty sure you would be aware of this, but let's just get it for the record, right?
So right away she was... Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.
And it took you how long to tell her you were an atheist?
Took me two months.
Right.
So I'm not sure what kind of moral high ground we're trying to get you to, if you don't mind me saying.
Yeah, no, I got some work to do myself, Steph.
So, you know, I mean, this is an exception, right?
Absolutely.
I totally agree.
Okay.
And I've, I've seriously apologized for that.
She told me, you didn't really lie to me, I mean, because I have the values and stuff, and I'm like, I absolutely did lie to you, you know, that's not true, I'm sorry.
Yeah, that's lying by omission for sure, right?
You found out she's Christian, obviously she wants to raise her kids Christian, she has all of those values and wants to go to church and so on, and if you're not Christian, yeah, that's kind of important, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it's different if you're, I don't know, it's puppy love and you're 14 or whatever, or 15, but, but it, you know, this is an adult relationship.
Yeah.
I'm an adult.
Yeah.
Okay.
So what's going on with that?
Are you still there, Steph?
I am.
I'm sorry.
I was just saying what's going on with that.
Oh, um,
With why I didn't tell her the truth.
Oh, okay.
Gotcha.
Gotcha.
Yeah.
Um, yeah, actually, uh, when I was in college, I did have a relationship like this.
Maybe it was brief, but we very much, uh, it's someone I very much liked.
And I told her kind of too early, I think, honestly, I mean, it was a little bit too harsh.
I was immature and didn't know how to say it, but, um, you know, when I, when that happened before I decided, uh, maybe I should wait to tell someone.
And when I consulted my parents on it, uh, they told me, don't tell her.
Uh, and I'm like, that is not possible.
Like that is, uh, what until the grave?
How long are you supposed to keep?
Yeah.
I don't know what the hell they wanted, you know?
Yeah.
Like that's impossible.
And also I'm not living a lie.
That's crazy.
Um, so no, I mean, you are living a lie, but only for two months.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Correct.
Correct.
Um, so.
Yeah, that's the logic, man.
If you have any more questions, go ahead, please.
Okay.
Well, um... So, you both sinned.
Yeah.
And guess what?
That's what happens.
That's life, right?
Mm-hmm.
I mean, nobody's perfect.
We all bend the truth.
Sometimes we all... I mean, we aim to get back into the right place, and certainly you guys have both come clean to each other, right?
Yeah.
Okay, so, in my view,
In my view, it's the cause.
Everybody wants to get offended at the symptom, but I'm interested in the cause.
Right.
I am too.
Right.
So the reason you lied to her was because you really wanted the relationship to continue because you liked her so much.
Yes.
Right.
And the reason she lied to you was exactly the same.
Yeah.
Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
You both lied as a compliment.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's true.
Because you really saw some potential.
You really seem to like each other a lot.
You share a lot of the same values.
And you're young, right?
So, you know, rarely... I mean, she's newly emerged from childhood, just a couple of years, right?
So you both lie to each other and not about the most important things.
Right.
It's not like she has four children and, and it's not like she's got a secret drug addiction and, and has donated blue.
Right.
I mean, we're not, we're not talking about like, or red for that matter these days.
Right.
So we're not talking about all of that kind of, we're talking about, you know, fudging and falsifying and hedging a little.
Right.
I mean, not about unimportant stuff.
But it's not like she says, I really want to have children when she in fact doesn't want to have children.
Or you say, I really want to get married when in fact you have no intention of getting married.
Yeah.
She fudged because she likes you.
And.
And I did the same.
And you did the same.
Right.
And, you know, I say this without any particular criticism.
I say this without, you know, obviously honesty is better.
And you got there.
Yeah.
And so I think.
Do you have a monopoly set?
Uh, yeah.
Okay.
So you've got a monopoly set and in the monopoly set, I think it's in community chest.
It's been a while since I played with my daughter, but in the monopoly set, there are two cards called get out of jail free cards, right?
So you take those from your monopoly set.
You sit down with your girlfriend, and you say, here's one for you, here's one for me.
You told a lie, by omission, that was important, but not a deal-breaker.
I told a lie, by omission, that was important, but not a deal-breaker.
Here, we get two.
One card each.
Right?
Yeah.
And we can take these cards,
On the condition that we tell the truth from now on.
And we get out of jail, for sure.
Go forth, says Jesus, and sin no more.
Here's your card.
Here's my card.
Let us commit to the truth.
I accept that you lied to me because you liked me so much.
I hope that you can accept that I lied to you because I like you so much.
Here's your get-out-of-jail-free card.
Here's my get-out-of-jail-free card.
But we got to tell the truth from now on.
Yeah.
Can we make that commitment to each other and so on?
Does that make sense?
Yep.
She's not perfect.
She has a few skeletons in her closet.
You're not perfect, as I'm not perfect, right?
We all have a couple of skeletons that we're hesitant to bring up with others, right?
Yeah.
And we're hesitant to bring up with these things because we don't want other people to define us by what they think it means, right?
Yeah.
I was not super keen on telling the woman who became my wife, I don't talk to my mother.
Yeah.
Right?
Because of what it might mean or what the, I mean, this is true, much more true like 25 years ago than it is now.
It's become a little bit more acceptable, but it's what, you know, if, if you say like, I'm estranged from my parents, it sounds like weird, bad, sinister, creepy, intolerance, you know, judgmental, you know, volatile.
My God, if he can do that to his own mother, how could he commit to any woman?
You know what I mean?
Like there's all of this stuff, right?
Yeah.
And I don't want to be defined by what other people think it means.
Now, of course, I did tell her, and I told her why, and all of that, and we had long conversations about it, and so on.
And things moved forward, right?
Now, what you don't want, I think, and I don't want to speak for you, but I'm guessing, tell me if I'm wrong, you don't want to be defined by being an atheist because of all the baggage that comes with it.
Yeah.
Right, like, I don't meet people socially and say, hey, I'm an anarchist!
Yes, yeah, neither do I. Right, because of all the baggage that comes with it.
That's not true, but has been hijacked for sort of very specific reasons, right?
Yeah, and you understand the logic.
I mean, I never expressed it, but you can imply, you know, I wanted her to get to know me and my values first, you know?
But yeah.
Yeah.
Still not right.
If you'd opened up with, I'm an atheist, then she sees like 666 written in fire on your forehead or something.
Of course.
Yeah.
That's not, uh, that's not the way to move forward.
Right.
Yeah.
Because, you know, frankly, a lot of atheists are fedora wearing a, uh, amoral a-holes.
Yeah, they're fags.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
So I would say that I understand, but I also understand from her perspective,
She made decisions she now regrets.
Now, you know, show me a man alive or a woman alive who's never made a decision they don't regret, and I'll show you a liar in the same breath, right?
So she made decisions that she regrets, but she does not want to be defined in your mind by those decisions.
But that's a little bit what's happening, right?
Because you said you can't sleep and you can't eat and so on.
And we'll talk about that a little bit, but she doesn't want to be defined by youthful indiscretions, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, honestly, things have improved since last night, the conversation I had.
But because, you know, vague spiritualism or karma or astrology or, you know, whatever, right?
Some sort of collective unconscious stuff.
More women tend to be mystical than men.
And so whether it's Christianity or it's some other thing,
There is this challenge.
This is a good deal, comparatively.
Well, I don't know exactly why this is the case, other than men tend to interact with reality directly, and women tend to interact with reality through the medium of other people.
Right?
So men deal with hunting, women deal with cooking.
So men have to go out and earn resources in the objective world,
And women then manipulate those resources to provide, right?
Men have to go hunting for food, women can produce food from their breasts, right?
So, men tend to focus more on objective reality, clarity, logic, and so on, and women tend to be a little bit more mystical, because women survive through relationships, men survive through reality.
Does that make sense?
Yes, yeah.
So, it doesn't really matter, fundamentally, about atheism versus Christianity.
I mean, I get it matters from a procedural standpoint, but what really matters is understanding that men and women are just different.
And if you're going to look for a woman who's as objective and clear and rational as a man, you're probably going to have to dig up and reanimate
Ayn Rand, and she can't give you kids because she was like a one-legged wanderer of no childless.
No children, right?
Yeah, even if she was, that would be a terrible idea.
I love her writing.
Horrible, horrible person.
So, I mean, women and men are different.
And listen, women's mysticism can be very helpful to men.
I know this sounds odd because I'm a dedicated rationalist and so on, right?
But the thing is that
There's an old saying, the heart has its reasons of which reason knows nothing.
I think that comes out of Pascal, out of Pensées.
The heart has its reasons of which reason knows nothing.
Right.
So there've been times when my wife, we meet someone and she's like, Ooh, don't like him.
Right.
And I'm like, cause I'm kind of optimistic.
Um, they seem fine to me.
Right.
And, uh, she's always right.
They read it.
Yeah.
So, so we're, we're a perfect team.
So the fact that women tend to be more instinctual and mystical is of massive benefit to men.
Now how that manifests, so you could say, oh, but it manifests as, as, as astrology.
And it's like, I, you know, in a sense, it doesn't really matter how it manifests.
It's just a, they have a witchy superpower.
These chicks, they have a witchy superpower.
And men who don't listen to it don't do well.
And so the fact that she's Christian and you're atheist is formalized in a sense, it's formalized femininity and masculinity.
Yeah, I would agree.
And if you hold the same morals and she's open to, like men don't pray in general, or they pray less than women.
And yet, prayer has significant benefits in life.
Because prayer, in sort of the way that I view it, is communing with the unconscious, which operates at 6,000 times faster than the conscious mind, and has fantastic understandings.
And like, you know, you've heard me do these sort of dream analyses on the show, right?
And it turns out that the unconscious just has absolutely incredible, wonderful things to say about things as a whole.
And so, I'm like, how many philosophers, rational philosophers, can you imagine Ayn Rand trying to do a dream analysis?
I don't know this bullshit!
But empirically, you can see people get relief from it, and there is real truth in it, and you can get real insights from it.
And so, all of that is important, that aspect of life.
And I've always tried to demine body, the unconscious conscious, the quote mysticism, which is instincts you can't prove but which have value, right?
You know, it's like if you say to your kid, your kid says I'm thirsty and you're like prove it.
Objectively, it's like, I can't, but I still feel it, right?
And yet it's important, right?
Those are the instincts that keep us alive, right?
So, if you respect that she communes with less objective mindsets, or a less objective way of thinking,
And accept that, and that's formalized into Christianity where she prays and she gets inspiration and so on.
If you accept that as a way of thinking that has benefit and complements the rational thinking, and if she accepts that your more rational thinking and objective thinking has value that complements her more mystical or subjective kind of thinking, I think you're a very powerful team.
But female instincts are quite powerful and less available than male instincts.
Male instincts are around benefits and dangers that are more obvious, female instincts are about benefits and dangers that are more subtle.
Like, a woman can catch a venomous glance from across a room and be on the alert.
Men don't notice that stuff as much, but it's really important as well, right?
Because sometimes lives are destroyed by force, and sometimes lives are destroyed by reputation attack, and women are much more sensitive to and concerned about that, and they get that through some of the mystical stuff.
So, this is not saying that mysticism is objectively true, and it's a sort of rational methodology.
I get all of that, but it is... I don't ignore my dreams.
And I certainly don't need to ignore the instincts of the people around me and in particular, the women.
And there's just for me an accumulation of evidence that they just pick up on things that I don't notice and they're almost always right.
And my daughter had this, it's wild to see this from a very early age.
My daughter had this from just being a couple of years old.
It was wild to see.
That she just picked up instinctually on people, and she was right, and I was wrong about the majority of those people, from like three or four years old.
Yeah.
And it's like, okay, I guess we can call that God, because I don't get it, but I'm just a dude, right?
Yeah.
I don't get what body cues she get, I don't get what tone inflections she get, but she just was able to assess people with ridiculous levels of accuracy
You know, from the age of walking onwards, it was just wild to see.
And, you know, people can get mad at me if they want, I'm not saying you would, but that's just a fact that I've seen.
And she is right.
And if someone can explain to me how she's right, I think that'd be great.
I'm not saying it doesn't exist in a rational universe, but I am saying that
I can't explain it.
It does exist in her, I mean, it's not mysticism, it's not reading people's souls with a barcode of her spirit or something, but I don't understand the process.
This is, again, back to the sort of blink phenomenon, right?
And so, if you look at her Christianity as her respect for subtle wisdom and instincts, great.
In the same way that it's wise to respect your dreams and assume they have something of value to offer you, right?
But if you just say, well, she's just crazy and superstitious and so on, then you're actually gonna... well, then you might be looking for a woman who's a man, right?
Yeah, that's not my objection at all.
Yeah, my meaning in that was...
Technically, what the hell do we do without the kids?
You know, like all that stuff.
Well, no, but you need to decide that ahead of time.
And, obviously, I don't know what you should decide.
I remember dating a woman who was Christian, and we had conversations about this, and my approach was, well, I don't believe in God, but
I am not going to tell the children that God is proven true, real, and valid, right?
Because I can't say things that are not true for me.
On the other hand, if they choose to become religious as they get older, I would certainly not hold that against them.
Yeah, yeah.
I would very much agree with that idea.
Well, and she's like, oh, so we can't talk about God at all?
I'm like, oh, no, we absolutely have to!
God is a foundation of force of the universe in people's minds, right?
So, yes, of course we will teach them, and I've taught my daughter all about religion, and all about Christianity, and all about the Bible stories old and new.
She knows them down to a T, because they're very important and powerful stories and all that, right?
So, but I tell them as stories.
Yeah.
So, if you have that discussion, that does put your kids in a challenging position though, right?
Because if they're socializing, right?
So there are challenges.
But they're good challenges to have, because you want to have challenges on
Methodology, not on values, right?
I mean, if you can say, we both want to go to Vegas, then how you get there is less important, right?
So, we both want to have, you know, reason and virtue and love and all of that, then you can get there.
If you have the conversations up front, say, yeah, we'll talk about God and we'll say, we have different opinions.
You guys can certainly decide for yourself as you age and so on.
I think that's all fine.
What's really going to matter is your kid's relationship with you and the mother of your children.
And if that's a great relationship, I think the rest of it kind of falls into place.
At least that's sort of been my experience.
If you and your wife have a great relationship, and you and your kids have a great relationship, everything else can be worked out pretty easily.
Yeah, I think you're right.
So, hopefully we'll see where it goes.
But that's a good methodology on that.
All right.
Is there anything else that I can help you with as we close things down?
You know, I mean, everyone has questions, but no, I think for this issue, thank you very much, Stephen.
I really appreciate it.
It's been relatively helpful.
I don't mean to sound needy.
Have I been helpful?
But, I mean, I think we got to some fairly good places, and I sympathize with you both, and, you know, it is very tempting to fudge things a little until you get to know people.
That's a double-edged sword, and I'm glad that you guys have been honest about it, and I'm certainly glad that, you know, if you get the get-out-of-jail-free card and commit to moving forward, I think that'd be great, with honesty.
Most definitely.
It feels like Socrates meeting the Oracle, so really appreciate it.
Very kind.
Very kind.
All right.
Well, keep me posted about how things are going, and I wish you both the very best, and I really do appreciate the call today.
