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June 4, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:26:27

My Bride Cheated Months after Marriage! Freedomain Call In

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Time	Text
	Hello, can you hear me?
	Hi.
	Hey, hey, hey.
	Right, right!
	Gosh, I'm so sorry to hear about all of this.
	How is the audio, is it acceptable?
	Yeah, it's fine, it's fine, I appreciate that, thanks.
	So yeah, I'm all ears, lay it on me.
	What's going on?
	How can I help?
	Um Well, uh, basically, uh, let's see sort of the penny was in
	the air, um Um, so to speak on on sunday, um night, um in my area that is um and um Yeah, uh, and then I in in the early morning found out through like, um messaging, uh, you know sexting and all that sort of thing like very graphic stuff, but um
	Yeah, and yeah, i'm talking about having sex and planning to meet up and all that sort of thing.
	Um Yeah, but my wife had been cheating on me so long Yeah, that's uh, that's just been in the last how did you come across these messages Yeah, so this story a lot of people because i've just been reaching out to everyone everyone's been great but like um Uh, yeah, so, um Sorry, i've got no filter and i'm just going to be frank.
	But um, yeah, we were having sex on um saturday night my wife and I of course, um and uh, This would have been like 11 o'clock at night or so.
	Um, maybe finished up for 20 minutes later than that or something Um, and then she went to the bathroom and I heard like her friend was on her bedside table I heard a message like when you receive a message from messenger like a message coming in Um, and I didn't really think anything of it particularly.
	I was just like, oh, it's a little bit odd, um, timing-wise.
	You mean because it was so late at night, or?
	Yeah, we should get back to bed.
	Sorry.
	You mean because it was so late at night, or?
	Yeah, just the time.
	I was like, oh, that's a little bit odd.
	Yeah, just because of the time.
	And she came back to bed and we chatted about some things.
	She had grabbed her phone and turned off the lights and stuff.
	We do that through an app.
	And we were chatting about different things.
	And then I also mentioned, I was like, oh, so who's messaging you at this time of day or night on a Saturday?
	And she's like, oh, I don't know.
	And I was just like, What do you mean you don't know you just checked your phone and she's like, oh, yeah It was a group message like so I saw that there was a message on a group But like, you know, I didn't see who was writing it or whatever blah blah blah um probably some You know her like person she likes to sort of uh bitch about in a group.
	Um, because she doesn't like so much but um But uh Yeah, so I thought I'd seen her open something before that.
	So I was like, I thought she did check it because I know the app that we use the lights for, of course.
	I didn't say anything about that.
	I was just like, oh, okay, well.
	And it just really didn't sit right on me.
	I was just sort of lying there and couldn't sleep for, I don't know, maybe 20 minutes or something.
	And then, like, It's just the most strange sensation and experience of it like sort of hitting me like it physically felt like something Hitting me or something like it took the air out of me.
	It was The best way I can sort of describe it is like just getting chucked into ice cold water Like it took the air out of me.
	I just felt freezing cold all of a sudden and just started shaking and my body was just like Something is really wrong and like I didn't quite Sort of cognitively understand things but like that's just something's really wrong.
	And of course my wife notices this because I just like I'm just like rambling like nothing else and um Yeah, so, um, she's like, um, you know what's going on and like everything and I was like, um I'm weird.
	I don't know what's going on like and I couldn't sleep all night And I ended up getting up at like 5 in the morning.
	Um And like I just like it had sort of clicked then and like that she was lying and whatever and I was just I mean not myself, but like I you know, it's not something I'd ever treat my wife that way or anything and but like I just grabbed a phone, um, like I I wouldn't usually do this but like I just needed to check and I like wanted to know that everything was all right, basically, but um
	Uh, yeah, so I um Grabbed her phone so I could check on that.
	She'd um, I guess just like that night changed the access pin like to open her phone.
	Um And I was like, what the fuck?
	So that was like after we'd had that conversation she'd gone back to the bathroom and stuff, which is not unusual for her She has OCD.
	Um, so she's a bit like that.
	Um, but like yeah, she'd obviously taken a phone to sort of the bath like We've got a separate toilet.
	So not on the toilet presumably but um Like that fucking matters now.
	But anyway, um Yeah, she changed the code after we'd had that conversation about the message and so it's five in the morning I turn the lights on Grab a phone hold it out to her and I'm like And again, I wouldn't usually talk to anyone let alone my wife that way, but I was just like Open it like really demanding just yelling and that wakes her up.
	Of course, and I'm like open it and she's like what why and I'm just like just Do it now and so she did And I I get it and then she's sort of waking up and she's like wait Why do you need that and like is like oh fuck like she's going oh fuck like Um, and she's like trying to grab it off me and like why do you need that?
	And i'm like because you've been lying to me I know you've lied and I need to just check on this and she's like no no and like just trying to Like grab me like ripped my shirt off like trying to grab the phone out from me and like I just ran um out of the house with it and Yeah, I saw um Like as bad as you can imagine just all the sexting images videos like, uh Talking about when they were having sex, talking about meeting up.
	They were going to meet up that next morning as well.
	She recently, for context, started a job in a town a couple of hours away.
	She's always been more like, oh look, I want a career.
	And I was like, okay, I can be the more flexible one in the partner.
	You know, it's not traditional male-female, but I was like, hey, That's fine.
	If that's the deal, we can make that work.
	But yeah, she started a job in a town a couple hours away where her parents actually live.
	So she's just been staying with them during the week for a few weeks now because she just started that job.
	And I can work from anywhere, but we've still got this lease on a place where we're staying.
	So I've mostly just been here and she's mostly been coming back here on weekends and would spend time Sorry, I haven't slept for a couple of days really, so I might lose the plot a little bit.
	Brother, brother, you have nothing to apologize for.
	It's a heartbreaking story and you have nothing to apologize for.
	Just, just keep going.
	Uh, so that, well, I mean, that, that's how I found out.
	Um, and like, cause it was not on my radar, like, but you know, there, there were signs, um, but like, You know, I just never suspected that until, I don't know, maybe it all ended up, and like, just physically my buddy was just like, fuck dude, fucking pay attention, because like, it's not like I've felt anything like that before, but like, yeah, anyway.
	Do any questions come to mind?
	Oh, totally, yeah, yeah, totally.
	So, what were the signs, sort of, when you look back at your marriage, what were the signs, do you think, that she was cheating?
	We got married approximately six months ago.
	I don't think she was cheating on me sort of at the time.
	I'm not sure if she's cheated on me before.
	I guess it's fairly likely, but I don't know.
	We had a lovely wedding, you know, planning it, looking forward to that.
	I had a great wedding.
	I went back to our accommodation and, you know, we don't like, it's not like we, our drink is really, like, So it's not like we were passing out or anything.
	It wasn't super super late or anything.
	But, you know, it had been a big day.
	We were both tired and everything.
	And, you know, I was in the mood to, you know, have a wedding at night.
	And she was... I mean, I'm totally paraphrasing.
	She didn't actually say fuck off, but the attitude was just like, fuck off, I'm exhausted.
	Like, no.
	And I was That was uh, really something to deal with i'm like, oh what's wrong and like tried to talk to her about it and she's like No, I shouldn't have to i'm like i'm exhausted like and that's like it was really hard for me to process but I just kind of was like okay, um And uh, so like the start of the wedding since well the start of the marriage ever since just the wedding itself has kind of been Yeah, not right.
	Um which is crazy, but um Sorry, I thought I'd start chronologically with it.
	And then the day after, when we were at the accommodation, which you didn't as well, because I was trying to, you know, just, like, in a nice way and everything, but, you know, facilitate and all of that.
	No.
	And then like the third day the last day we were staying at the accommodations and everything I like I was just like What is wrong?
	Like i'm just like it was like what i'm freaking out like what's going on?
	Like we're married like why what like I get if it's like tired or whatever but like it doesn't need to be perfect like we just need each other sort of thing and like Really let her know.
	I was like really having a hard time with that and like we did which was Good.
	Uh, but like just not a good start to have to get to there.
	Um And then so, uh, so, uh, talking about times of years for listeners, by the way, um, what are we talking on the 6th of May?
	Um, currently, uh, Stefan, you mean like just in reference, just in reference to the year for the story for people, uh, currently you and I are speaking on the 6th.
	I mean, we're a little apart, but yeah, that's fine.
	Yes.
	I got married in October.
	Um, but, um, Uh, yeah on new year's eve, um Like they were a bit drunk we just had a friend over like we didn't really get up too much I had a few drinks and whatever.
	Um, and they were getting a bit silly.
	It's more of my um Wife so to speak not that I regard her as such now, but um, we'll say that um, but like my wife started more, um, and they were a bit whatever and then like, um my wife like checked a message and I was like, well, that's weird and like, um, Basically it was an ex and she's like oh an ex and whatever and I was just like oh I'm married now um and so I was just like well I guess you could just dismiss someone like that and you know I was like that's weird like why do you have weirdos still like anyway um you know I was just like that's weird but yeah you dismiss it and just be like yeah I'm married like what no like um but yeah obviously that was the guy and um they've since like and probably
	He's an ex, apparently.
	Sorry to interrupt.
	I got a little bit lost on the last bit.
	So, after you got married last October, you met this guy?
	And this was your wife's ex?
	No, I've never met the guy.
	We just had a small friend over to be social for New Year's Eve after October.
	The next sort of milestone in the story is, um, she got a message from an ex and like, you know, sort of sliding into a DM sort of like thing, I guess.
	And she commented on that and was just like, Oh no, I'm married.
	And like replied, I'm married now.
	And then she's like, Oh, that's weird.
	He said that's unfortunate or something.
	And I was just like, Oh, well, I guess you would dismiss a guy, but I didn't think too much about it other than, you know, it's weird.
	And I was, I didn't, sorry.
	Oh, it's weird.
	It's weird that some guy sent her a flirty message.
	Uh, yeah, yeah, like an ex doing that like drunk on presumably on like new year's eve and all that sort of shit Um, so I was just like, that's what but she's not um, but she's not Sorry, she's not yeah.
	Oh because she's still in touch with him Yeah.
	I mean, he could have just messaged her out of the blue without having followed her.
	But still like, and just a guy like that and stuff and then being like, Oh, that's unfortunate.
	Like, uh, you know, to, I'm married and stuff instead of like, Oh, congratulations.
	Or like, I'm glad you're doing well in life.
	That's just, you know, it's, it doesn't speak well of like, um, the person.
	So like just having an ex, uh, with that kind of attitude and stuff, uh, it's, Yeah, he's looking for a booty call, he can't get what he wants, so that's unfortunate, right?
	Yeah, exactly.
	It's also leaving the door open.
	It also indicates, because I found out recently, sorry, that they dated briefly, about ten years ago, before we had Matt, of course.
	And like basically they only ever dated in like the first phase and like everything like, you know Feel good chemicals and stuff and then he moved overseas to um, well, I guess that doesn't matter but um, he moved overseas.
	Um and um to where he was from again, um and Yeah, he's sort of you know, they basically broke up because of distance and well, I mean Obviously there was no commitment there as well then so um, but so basically I think she's just had it this like Magical image of like this perfect relationship because it just ended in like this one that only had you know All that good good like, you know initial sort of um So anyway, they've been messaging like the whole time.
	Um ever since apparently so I guess she's sort of emotionally at least been cheating Ever since he said that's unfortunate because she's married they continue I mean when they were dating 10 years ago and he moved overseas they didn't stop messaging each other ever like really sir And was this the guy who sent the message about that's unfortunate?
	I don't know if it's certain, but like I'm pretty, you know, like it would be yes.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So she kept in touch with this guy.
	Now tell me a little bit about before the marriage, how long have you guys been together?
	I guess before getting married?
	Like six and a bit years or something.
	Uh, so, you know, a long time.
	Oh, six years.
	Okay.
	And like, uh, we've been presently together for like, uh, you know, at least seven years sort of.
	Right.
	Right.
	So, uh, you got married six months ago, but you were together six, six and a half years before you got married.
	And did you meet in your early twenties?
	Late twenties.
	Late twenties.
	Dude, what are you talking about?
	Mid to late twenties.
	So you met in your late twenties and you only get married in your mid thirties?
	I know.
	Why?
	Okay, well, I have sort of, I guess, not too dissimilar views to you in some way, of course.
	Oh no, I think we have dissimilar views.
	I'm pretty sure we have dissimilar views on this stuff.
	I mean, I totally get where you're coming from.
	Could I finish just what I was saying?
	I think the context of the sentence would make it make a bit more sense.
	Yeah, go ahead.
	So I was always pushing for that kind of thing.
	Like, we started dating for, you know, like we dated for a year or whatever.
	And I was like, you know, we were talking about, you know, progress and seriousness and whatever.
	And she had always lived with her parents until she moved in with me.
	But she wanted to move in with me.
	For us to get a place.
	Um, and I was like, I don't think that's a good idea.
	Um, I don't want to be unserious.
	I don't want to just like Like have some live-in situation and then like it like not have it serious and then break up and then we've got like an awkward Domestic situation where we have to break up and things and like it just doesn't show commitment and stuff I was like, I want to get married before we move in there, but she was very not that I didn't want to break up with her and she was really um pushing for that so I was like Okay, but why was she... Look, if you take it really seriously, kind of like we're getting married, um, okay, like we can move in together.
	But, um, yeah, anyway, that's what I... So why was she living with her parents in her late 20s?
	Yeah, that's odd, isn't it?
	I'm sorry?
	I said, yeah, that is odd, isn't it?
	No, but why?
	Uh, my mind's gone blank.
	I mean, did she not have a job?
	Did she not have any money?
	Did she, was she, did she declare bankruptcy?
	Was she fleeing an abusive boyfriend?
	Like why would she be living with her parents?
	She's done studying and living with her parents and working a bit.
	Um, yeah.
	And had you guys talked about having children?
	Sorry, had you guys talked?
	I know we've got a bit of a delay here.
	And did you guys want kids?
	Aye.
	That had been the understanding.
	Oh, come on.
	She's gone and... Yes or no?
	Did she want kids?
	I'm not sure if she did.
	You don't know if she wanted kids?
	Ostensibly, yes.
	Yes.
	Of course, ostensibly.
	Otherwise, it wouldn't have worked.
	We wouldn't have, like, I wouldn't have pursued things.
	Yeah.
	I'm sorry.
	I'm confused.
	Did she want kids?
	Yes.
	But I thought you said you weren't sure.
	I'm saying now, like it doesn't make sense to me because she's gone and like at this stage of our lives.
	Anyway, but yeah, no, it was always the understanding that we would have kids.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So she, after a year, she wanted to move in and you said, I'd rather get married.
	And she said, no, right.
	I just going to move in.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Sorry.
	I'm not breaking up because of that so much as just like, since I just saw that I've gotten a message from her for the first time.
	Oh, do you want to take a moment?
	I'm not going to open it now.
	I like it.
	I'm wanting to focus on this conversation, but I don't know.
	I'm just saying, I don't mind.
	Listen, if it will help you, it will probably help you concentrate.
	If you want to take a moment and read it, that's totally fine with me.
	I think it'll just open up other stuff.
	That's going to distract my mind.
	We can talk about that other stuff if you like.
	It's my preference that we, like, don't do that now.
	Okay, that's totally fine.
	Not that we don't talk about other stuff, of course.
	No, no, I get what you mean.
	Now, so, if you wanted to have kids, why would you wait to get married until you're 35 or 36?
	Are you the same age?
	So, if you wanted to have kids, why would you wait to get married until you're 35 or 36? Are you the same age?
	She's less than six months younger, sorry, older than me.
	Yes.
	So she's older than you.
	Okay.
	So are you, are you 35 or 36?
	Approximately.
	Okay.
	So why would you wait to get married until she's in her mid thirties?
	If you want kids.
	Yeah.
	I mean, I've brought all of these things up and like, uh, yeah.
	Uh, I went along with it, but basically, you know, we lived together for a little while and I was talking about marriage and stuff and she was very dismissive and like, I'm not ready to get married yet.
	Um, and so I didn't know what to do with that really.
	And, um, so I just put it off until I was just like, Oh, it's fucking now or never.
	Um, I'm sorry.
	I've been swearing a lot.
	I don't care.
	I don't care.
	Forget about the swearing.
	That doesn't matter to me at all.
	Just whatever's on your mind.
	Just, just say it.
	But yeah, I was like well, it's fucking now or never like I don't think she's gonna say no.
	So, uh, like yeah, um So I just got to that.
	Um, because like we don't ever talked about it and she'd been like not now and um Okay, so hang on.
	I'm sorry to interrupt because I know you're, you know, definitely upset and, of course, I can make total sense.
	But I'm trying to understand a couple of things.
	So you said that recently she got a job in another town that's a couple of hours away and was staying with her parents during the week, right?
	Correct.
	So she started a new career in her mid-thirties, right?
	Well, I mean, it's related to her career, but yeah, she made a move for career, yes.
	So how the ever-loving hell are you supposed to start a family if she's started a big step up in her career and has moved away for the weekdays?
	Oh, so we were just like, yeah, look, if you're going to be the main career person, you can do that.
	And, you know, I'll be more of the carer and sort of other flexible handling other things person.
	So you would stay home with the babies?
	Yes, of course.
	Yeah.
	And she would freeze her breast milk and then go to work.
	Is that right?
	Yeah, like, I guess, pump and, you know, do what she can when she's there and otherwise I'd be taking care of the care.
	You know, she'd be able to get some maternity leave as well, of course.
	But I'm sorry, I can't hear what you're saying.
	She'd be able to get what?
	Some maternity leave as well, sir.
	Right, but it's kind of tough to start a big new career thing and then take maternity leave, right?
	Yeah, not ideal, but it was a good You know, step up and pay and career advancement and everything, sir.
	Um, yeah.
	And so had she agreed that she was, that you, you were going to have kids and that you were going to stay home and be the primary caregiver?
	Yes.
	And was that before or after she took the new job?
	Uh, well before, and like, that was still the understanding.
	What do you mean, that was the understanding?
	I don't know what that means.
	Like, we don't really ever talked about it.
	Like, she's always been consistent.
	Like, that's how we were gonna do things.
	No, but there's no plan.
	Like, there's no specific plan.
	Let's start trying for babies.
	And she's 36.
	Yes.
	We were going to start trying seriously in two months from now, basically.
	Oh, so that was the plan?
	Yes.
	Okay, got it.
	So, there seems to be a whole series of things where you say, I would like this, and she says, no.
	I would like us to get married before we move in.
	No.
	Okay.
	I would like us to get married now.
	No.
	You'll have to wait.
	I would like to have sex on my wedding night.
	No.
	I would like to have a plan for kids.
	No.
	Maybe later.
	And I guess eventually you did have a plan for that.
	But it seems like she's kind of running the show a little, right?
	Yes.
	So why?
	So you must think that she's I just noticed the pattern.
	I just thought we had different primary, like, focuses.
	I was, like, really keen on family.
	She was more keen on career, is how I saw it.
	I don't know.
	Well, what's that got to do with whether you get married or live together?
	I don't know. What does that have to do with that?
	Well, you don't want to live together.
	You want to get married, right?
	I'm sorry, I didn't quite follow that.
	I think it's just because my brain's a bit sleep-depressed.
	Okay, so you want to get married before you live together, right?
	Yes, yes.
	So why isn't that the standard that you follow?
	So then she says, no, I want to live together and not get married.
	And you say, well, no, that's not my standard.
	So we will live apart until we get married.
	That's my standard.
	But you folded on that standard, right?
	Yes.
	Yes, and Well, I did try to put forward my like, um, you know, like
	expectations and being like well, okay i'll Do it so that we can continue having a relationship and
	And, but I'm sorry.
	Did she say if we can't live together, I'm breaking up with you?
	If we were not going to get married and she wanted to move in.
	We In the relationship, what did she compromise on?
	Because you compromised on some very big things, right?
	need to take it really serious, not just like live in like I want you to think of
	it as like progress towards marriage.
	Like we need to, yeah.
	Okay.
	She, she agreed to that.
	She's like, okay.
	In the relationship, what did she compromise on?
	Cause you compromised on some very big things, right?
	So what is, what did she compromise on?
	Nothing comparable comes to mind.
	Okay, give me something not comparable.
	Sigh.
	Yeah, my mind's gone blank.
	I Okay, so you folded and she dictated.
	Yes.
	Okay, so why?
	Why is that the case?
	Why?
	Yeah, I want to get to the bottom of that.
	I did have like an inner Steph and was thinking about things and whatever, just, you know, in the last while.
	That's my parents' relationship.
	Yeah, whenever they really had a fight about something or, you know, really had differences, basically my mother would escalate and my dad would eventually pretty much just end up folding.
	So, I mean, there's that, but I don't know why exactly.
	Well, and are your parents happy together?
	Not the relationship I'd want, sir.
	Okay, so it's not the relationship you'd want.
	They're not miserable people, but no, it's not the happiest relationship.
	Okay, so if doing what your father does Yes.
	It's fucking stupid.
	God.
	Essentially.
	want, then why would you do what your father does?
	Yeah.
	It's fucking stupid.
	God.
	Well, I mean, the other thing too is you said, well listen, I don't want to live together
	before we get married, because most times that turns into a disaster, right?
	And what happened?
	Essentially, yeah.
	And what happened?
	It turned into a disaster.
	It did.
	I mean, am I wrong?
	Yeah, not wrong.
	Right.
	So you say, no, I don't want to live together.
	I want to get married because otherwise things are likely to turn into a disaster.
	And she's like, no, I want things my way.
	And you guys live together for five years or whatever.
	And then you get married and it's a disaster, which is exactly what you were concerned about with living together before getting married.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	I'm just going to say it.
	Cause it just hit me now.
	It's a tangent.
	It's a bit of a blip.
	Maybe that's a defensive, but like, um, I know there's some, like, I haven't looked into research about it, but I've heard about, like, she's always been on the pill for our relationship, and, you know, since we were going to start trying for family, basically this year she stopped the pill as well.
	But that just came to mind.
	No, that's a very real thing.
	Right.
	So when women are on the pill, they tend to be attracted to more passive men, and then when they get off the pill, they tend to be attractive to more aggressive men.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	So, the question is the passivity.
	Yeah.
	So, what happens if she says, I want to live together, and you say, we have to be married, and she says, no, I really want to live together, what happens if you say, no, my stand, like, out of care for our relationship, we are If you want to live with me, you're going to have to marry me, right?
	And what happens if you have that standard and stick to it?
	I think we would have broken up.
	I think she would have seen it as like an irreconcilable difference and like I wasn't being reasonable and... Well, how is it reasonable for her to get her way?
	That's not reasonable.
	Right.
	If it's unreasonable to have a standard, then she has a standard called, I want to live together.
	Why is it unreasonable for her to get her way and not for you to get your way?
	Well, you know, like I'm not defending it, but I think the view was like, yeah, I was trying to negotiate and be like, well, this is why I believe this.
	So we need to be, you know, make sure we do take things really seriously.
	Like not just moving in, like, you know, it's serious.
	And what is moving in with an asterisk called really serious mean?
	I mean, really serious is marriage.
	What is it like?
	Well, it's exactly the same as marriage, but without marriage.
	You're right.
	So for how long, how long did, when she moved in, how long did you expect to be living together before you got married?
	Bye.
	Or what was your thought about that?
	Maybe two years top.
	Okay, so how did that become five years?
	I talked about it, brought it up, I was like, hey, you know, we should get married and she's like, I don't want to now.
	And, um, then it became later and I was just like, well, I'd better fucking do it.
	Cause if it's otherwise like, you know.
	Otherwise what?
	Like sort of now or never.
	Well, otherwise it won't happen.
	Do you regret proposing?
	No, I don't.
	Of course you do.
	Right.
	So why did you propose when she didn't want to get married?
	Like she didn't come to you and say, I'm ready, let's do it.
	I'm sorry I made you wait so long or?
	No.
	Well, it had been a while since we'd talked about it and I thought she would say yes.
	I thought she would want it.
	She did say yes.
	So, you know, I thought she wanted to get married.
	All right.
	I mean, why would you say yes to marrying someone if you don't want to marry someone?
	Well, I mean, that's trying to plumb the depths of a woman who's obviously not particularly trustworthy, which is a hole too deep for mortal man.
	So... Yeah.
	So you compromise a lot, and she didn't compromise at all.
	Is that right?
	Essentially, yes.
	Okay.
	So, we have to go back to why.
	Now, saying your father, listen, if you were some noob to philosophy... Oh, I did have an example of small things where she'd compromise, like, you know, we were looking for houses, we'd been renting and stuff, and when we'd look for a new place, yeah, she took, you know, my primary considerations into, you know, concern very much as well.
	Like, you know, there's some things like that.
	Whereas, you know, they were really not very high on her concern.
	And like, uh, she didn't care.
	Well, isn't that right?
	I mean, if it's not, if it's not important to her, it's not too inconvenient, I guess.
	So she.
	Okay.
	So that's not a compromise, right?
	That would have been a better way to look at it, I guess.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So how long have you been listening to this show?
	Uh, just, uh, I think I just started.
	Like I might've seen the truth about the crusades on YouTube around the time we got together.
	Okay.
	So six, six and a half years ago, right?
	Say seven, seven years ago.
	Why are you calling me now?
	Because I know i've I know I need to get it straight now
	Like, I didn't accept that earlier.
	Why are you calling me now?
	As opposed to at any time over the last seven years.
	Because I'm really running out of time to get what I want in life.
	And because... But you understand how frustrating it is to me?
	Yes.
	Right?
	Yes.
	Do you think I wouldn't have taken your call if you say, ah, you know, I've got this relationship, she doesn't compromise, you know, you do great work at the call-in shows, I really could use your help to avoid making a mistake, blah blah blah, right?
	Yeah, of course.
	Although, you know, to start with, I was getting very attached to her and getting really into your stuff because I thought it was great straight away, but, you know, I didn't really take it on board and, you know, it takes a while.
	It doesn't take seven years, brother.
	I'm just running out of the obvious.
	It doesn't take seven years.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	So you understand, you're calling, it's like I'm an insurance company and you're calling the insurance company for fire insurance when your house is burnt to the ground.
	Philosophy's about prevention, right?
	Yeah, that's why I'm like, I can't fuck things up again.
	It's like, if I've got another chance, it's only one.
	Well, it's tight, right?
	Because you're in your mid thirties.
	Really tight.
	Now you've got to go.
	How long does it take to get divorced?
	Yeah, it's not quick.
	Right, so it's a year or two, I don't know.
	Let's say a year.
	Yeah, but then you've got to untangle your finances, you've got to, I guess, move, and I don't know, I mean, I don't want to prejudge, is that, you think, where things are going?
	Oh yeah, I can't trust her, there's no relationship to be had.
	Okay, so you are, have you told her that, or have you been in any communication about that?
	I was yelling my head off at first when this all blew up.
	I was feeling like a crazy person, but yeah, I was clear about we're done.
	Yeah, like it's over, divorce, okay.
	And have you talked to lawyers?
	No, that's something to look into today.
	been a couple of days.
	It's been a couple of days.
	Why is she so high status to you that you don't feel you can assert anything?
	Because you're treating her like a boss.
	I'd say there's a bit of a mirror to it as well.
	I didn't care about having the role too much anyway.
	Sorry, you didn't care about having the what?
	I didn't care about having a career role particularly.
	It's like someone has to have it and it doesn't need to be me if you care about it more.
	I guess some of it's just compromising on stuff where it Either way, it doesn't really matter too much to me.
	Well, but what about your kids?
	I mean, wouldn't you want what's best for you? Is it best for your children?
	For the mother to stay home and breastfeed? Or is it better for you to jam a bottle in their faces?
	Well...
	Like I was saying, um, when they're really young, she could have, you know, some maternity leave anyway.
	Um, and do that, you know, for half the day.
	And I thought like just taking care of the baby the rest of the time, as long as they've got their primary carer, um, isn't, you know, it's not ideal.
	It's a little, you know, more direct to how many, but I didn't, it didn't strike me as being substantially better.
	Okay.
	How many, how many kids do you want?
	An impossible amount for my age or our age, but as many as we could work out.
	Okay, so two, three, four, five, whatever, as many as you can have, right?
	Like seven, yeah, whatever.
	Okay.
	Not that that would be possible, but, you know, like... So you want a lot of kids, right?
	Ideally.
	Okay.
	So if you want a lot of kids... But, you know, if I had one kid, I'd be thrilled with that as well.
	Okay, but you want more than one.
	So if you want a lot of kids, how can she have a career?
	Because, you know, there's a lot of mat leave, right?
	I mean, it kind of sucks for companies if they keep hiring a woman who then turns around and goes on mat leave for six or twelve months, right?
	Yeah.
	The nature of her work, she wouldn't actually, like, there's a lot of opportunity to be able to work from home and those sorts of things as well.
	No, but working from home isn't fair for the children.
	No, but I'd still be the primary carer and, like, I'd just, you know, be able to take a little bit of time to do some breastfeeding and that sort of thing, is what I thought about it.
	Maybe, uh, is that... Oh, so she wouldn't, she wouldn't take the mat leave then, or she would?
	Hmm.
	She probably would, yeah.
	So she would take the MAT leave for, like, two or three kids, and how long was the MAT leave?
	Six months?
	Twelve months?
	Anything else?
	She only agreed that we would have one kid and then see.
	And I was like, hmm, it's not my preference.
	Oh, so you want a bunch of kids?
	Oh, hang on.
	It's acceptable.
	So this isn't about a compromise, right?
	Yeah.
	Holy crap, you spineless son of a gun!
	Yeah.
	You want a lot of kids, and she's like, well, we'll have one and then we'll see.
	Yeah.
	I mean, bro!
	Okay, so how long would she take in mat leave?
	I'm not sure, like three months?
	She would take three months of mat leave?
	I actually don't know exactly what it is.
	Well, but you know that the recommended breastfeeding is 18 months, right?
	Yeah, of course.
	And do you think it's good for a child to have a primary caregiver for three months, who then basically vanishes?
	I hadn't thought about it, really.
	No, no, no, no.
	No, you don't get this.
	No, you don't get this.
	You've listened to this show, right?
	What do you do is what's best for your kids, right?
	You've heard this a million times, right?
	Of course.
	Okay, so, saying I hadn't thought about what's best for my kids when I'm desperate to have kids, and I've been thinking about it for six years, is not an excuse, right?
	In my mind, I was the primary carer, and that have extra care for that period, like, you know, with the mother as well.
	Now, do you know the risks of divorce when the man stays home and the woman is working?
	You know the risks.
	When the woman's income is higher than the man, you know the risks of cheating and divorce, right?
	Yeah.
	So why would you agree to something that's so risky?
	Because that's not causal.
	I thought you just decide, like, to get married and, like, if you've... Obviously, she didn't, but, like, to me, in my mind... No, no, no, no!
	If you're married, and the woman out-earns the husband, and, in particular, if the husband then stays home, the risk of divorce goes up considerably.
	Yes.
	I mean, you're aware of this stuff, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So you're setting yourself up for a very risky situation.
	I thought we would just sort that out, yeah.
	I'm sorry?
	But yes, you're right.
	Well, yeah, I thought we'd just sort that out and, like, there'd be strain and we'd work through anything that, you know.
	But yes, you're correct.
	Okay, so you're taking on one risk factor, which is living together without being married, and you're taking on another risk factor, which is being the primary caregiver for children, right?
	Yes, yes.
	And the inevitable happened.
	I mean, you can only roll the dice only so many times before you get snake eyes, right?
	I'm not taking away her agency, but...
	Yeah, exactly.
	So I was just like, well, it's agency, but yeah, you've got a great point.
	Of course.
	Yeah.
	Now, why is it only you who has to compromise?
	Because you're treating her like a boss, right?
	So when you have a boss and your boss says, I want you to do X, Y, and Z, you can say, maybe that's not a great idea, or here's my suggestion, or here's my preferences, but who gets the final say on what you do?
	The boss.
	I'm not exactly sure.
	So why is she your boss? Why are you treating her like a boss?
	I'm not exactly sure. I think that's just always been how life was when I was raised women.
	No, because if you listen to this show, you know about self-knowledge, you know about looking for prior patterns and not repeating them, right?
	Yeah.
	So the great joy of listening to this show is you lose all excuses for repetition.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	I mean, if you watch your father die of lung cancer from smoking too much, you don't get to say, well, that's why I became a smoker.
	You say, well, that's why I didn't touch cigarettes, right?
	Yeah.
	So if you saw your father get pushed around, and he's not happy, then you have no excuse for being pushed around, right?
	Yes.
	So why are you being pushed around?
	I didn't feel pushed around really.
	have.
	Oh, please, don't be this girly.
	Don't be this girly.
	I'm asking you for a fact and you're giving me a feeling?
	But you were, right?
	I mean, you compromised, she didn't.
	You told me, like, five instances within the first ten minutes of the convo, so you're not unaware of this stuff.
	I didn't have to dig for an hour to find it.
	Yeah.
	So then if I say, why were you pushed around?
	You say, well, I didn't feel pushed around.
	That's very feminine, right?
	Yes.
	And I don't, I, but you were pushed around.
	I can't judge your feelings, but I can judge the facts that you gave me, right?
	Of course.
	So why, if she, if you say, Hey, if you want to live together, we're going to have to get married.
	And she's like, well, I don't want to get married.
	It's like, well, that's the standard.
	Take it or leave it.
	Right.
	So let's say she then says, well, too bad.
	We've been dating for a year, but I'm not going to marry you.
	Right.
	Would it have been better for you to hold to your standard five and a half years ago?
	Oh yes.
	Oh yeah.
	Hugely.
	Right.
	And you were also listening to a show where I say holding to your standards is essential for life, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And I think you have an example in me of somebody who's reasonably well held onto my standards, right?
	Yeah.
	I'll stand out there.
	Yeah, so why do you fold?
	And I know that sounds accusatory.
	I don't mean it in an accusatory way.
	I'm not trying to make you feel bad.
	I'm genuinely curious.
	When you're listening to a podcast saying, hold on to your standards, and when you, in hindsight, after half a decade later, say it would have been way better to hold on to my standards, and you don't hold on to your standards, the question is why?
	And it can't be because of your father, because, again, you listen to a show that teaches you to identify these patterns.
	So why do you not hold on to your standards?
	Holding on to an excuse for, like, a drug, I think, like... Yeah.
	Okay, but a drug is something we use to cover up prior pain and trauma.
	So you must view her as superior to you in order to trail after her like this half-lost puppy, right?
	You must view her as superior to you.
	Is she prettier?
	Is she way smarter?
	Is she, I don't know, taller?
	Is she... She makes much more money?
	Her family is way better?
	Like, is there some way in which you perceive her as superior to you?
	That you need her, but she doesn't need you as much?
	much? About my equal in all of those regards.
	Okay so there's no way so you make the same money is that right?
	No, she makes more because that's... And how much more?
	You don't have to give me exact figures.
	Is it like 20% more, 50% more, 10, 100%?
	Until recently, not a very big gap, but like maybe 10 to 20% more.
	But then she was actually unemployed for a few months and us sort of more supporting her a bit.
	And then she got this new job.
	And yeah, she'd be earning, I don't know, 70% more.
	Okay, and so you're both the same level of attractiveness, right?
	Physically, yes.
	Yeah, yes, let's say yes.
	Okay, and are you both the same level of fitness or athleticism or physique or anything like that?
	That's something I found less attractive about her is she's not very physically capable.
	I'll type to you, like I don't want to give away too much identifying information, but she had an issue.
	And yeah, so she did have like some good biological excuse to be less sort of physically active and sporty.
	But yeah, she's definitely was not physically active and sporty.
	Okay.
	And was she overweight?
	Um Very slightly Okay, and So she's got like a figure where like she puts on the weight in Mostly the right places and looks very good with it if you know what I mean.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Got it Like, it's not ideal, but like, her body makes it work for her as well as, uh, you know, it could be attractive.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	So then why does she get her way?
	Okay.
	Let me, let me ask you this.
	So when you were raised, when you were being raised, how did you notice that your father was weak?
	Or how did you notice that your father was not negotiating from any position of equality or strength?
	Sorry, am I on now?
	I had a call coming in, I cut out this one.
	No, no problem.
	Do you need to take the call?
	No, I don't.
	Okay.
	So when you were growing up, obviously as a child, how did you notice that your father didn't have much strength in the relationship or much authority?
	I don't remember the content of arguments with them and whatever, but whenever they'd really disagree and it became more overheated, she'd just escalate and it'd blow up a bit and then he'd end up capitulating, basically.
	Can you remember of the pattern example?
	I cannot but I can well I can sort of think of a very Petty thing but like I sort of understand why it made him
	feel uncared for but um, like they had cutlery that they didn't
	Like especially my dad didn't care for so much like he didn't like the forks
	and he preferred the other forks that we had and so like he's you know always would let my mother know uh when you're making the table if you could set out the forks i like for me i'd really appreciate it and like it just never happened and it made him feel really unappreciated and then like it just became a big like blow up about fucking forks like ridiculous your dad your dad preferred particular forks yeah like the bigger ones yeah I honestly couldn't care less, but what do I know?
	No, I do actually understand.
	It's mildly preferable.
	Okay, so he preferred a particular fork, which your mother would never provide to him, right?
	No, she just didn't pay it any mind, so it was just random.
	Oh, so why wouldn't he just go and get the fork?
	Well I assume um, you know if that's happening and your spouse
	usually makes the table Um, you'd be like um could like, you know, um, I like these
	folks Like, could you do it?
	And like, you'd get the fork and then.
	So, so I guess he would get the fork or just not bother sometimes, depending on how he felt and, um, would let her know.
	Okay.
	Cause he, she just totally ignored it and doubled down and was like, there's no fucking difference, even though, but you know, it's totally.
	Obvious, which is which, but yeah.
	Okay, so she dismissed his preferences.
	Yes.
	Okay, and so the forks is one thing, and I know you had a tough time remembering.
	Can you remember any others?
	No, that stands out as just being so fucking, like, Like, uh, you know, mound out of a molehill.
	Well, no, but it's not about, you know, it's not about, it's not about the forks.
	It's fucking ridiculous.
	Exactly.
	You understand, it has nothing to do with the forks, right?
	People are almost never fighting about the real thing, right?
	Of course.
	Okay.
	So did she actually swear at him?
	Like there's no effing difference about the forks?
	Yeah.
	She mum sounds kind of coarse.
	Not swearing at him like you fucker, but like, you know, swearing about it, like to emphasize and being like, there's no fucking difference.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Sure is.
	isn't it? Sure is. I mean, I mean about something like that.
	I'm not saying everyone has to be Marie Antoinette, but you know, like I've
	been close as fuck the last day or two or whatever. Okay, you're a dude and
	you know, you're going through a lot. This isn't about, you know, and honestly,
	excessive swearing is coarse for women in particular. Sure. I don't like it
	particularly, but, uh, don't have any filter on that at the moment really. Okay.
	So how often would your parents get into conflict? Just roughly like yearly,
	monthly.
	How often would your parents get into conflict where your father would have to appease?
	Maybe twice a year, or once or twice a year.
	Okay, so it's fairly rare.
	And did they get along well otherwise?
	Yeah, like not too much turbulence in the relationship otherwise, yeah.
	I mean, you know, they don't have a really great deep relationship like is ideal, but yeah, you know, they're pretty, you know, high mood sort of, you know, generally fairly sort of happy.
	And did you ever see your father get his way against your mother's wishes?
	No.
	And when did you first identify that as a pattern that you had to look out for?
	After starting to listen to Freedomain radio in the day.
	Oh, that's seven years ago.
	And what did your parents think of your girlfriend slash fiancée slash wife?
	They don't live near us.
	They're not Good parents in that regard, not involved in relationships vetting or that sort of thing.
	But they had a casually positive, mostly, yeah, like, if you ask them, sort of positive, you know, vaguely, yeah.
	Boy, that's, that's as foggy an answer as I've ever received on this show.
	Good job.
	Good job.
	You're like a squid with the ink.
	Cool.
	I'm, uh, I'm going to get binger.
	You're a wing.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So wait, so they, they knew this woman for like half a decade or more, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And they also knew.
	We really don't spend much time together.
	Like, um, with my parents, they don't live near us.
	Um, yeah.
	Not much at all.
	Like, a few hours in that time, maybe.
	Wait, so in half a decade they spent only a few hours with your girlfriend?
	Yeah.
	And my mother and my why didn't really get along um
	That's my family That's not an answer?
	I mean this woman holds your heart in her hands and...
	Do you have siblings?
	I have one older sister.
	I'll type how many months older she is.
	Yeah, you don't have to tell me.
	Okay, but it's not much.
	Okay.
	So, this woman holds your heart in her hands, right?
	And your future, and the future of grandchildren, and the lineage, and the whole thing, right?
	So how is it possible that over half a decade they spend only a few hours with her?
	We don't, I don't see my parents all that much.
	Um, my wife even less, um, and then your wife even less.
	Oh, your wife sees your parents.
	And you said that your mom and your wife don't get along.
	Yeah.
	My, like, um, my mother can be quite abrasive and it really, uh, like my wife was very, um, on edge about that.
	Um, yeah.
	So she didn't like to spend much time around my mother.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	And what do you mean by abrasive?
	Can you give me an example what that means?
	A word came to mind of being somewhat narcissistic sort of character traits.
	Oh God, please just give me some actions.
	These descriptions mean nothing to me.
	I don't know what abrasive means to you.
	I don't know what narcissistic means to you.
	That's why I keep having to ask you for examples.
	Just give me some examples.
	I'm really fogging.
	Yeah, if you disagree with my mother, she gets nasty and takes it personally and escalates on everything.
	Can you think of a time when you got your way with your mother?
	Not against my mother, no.
	Okay.
	So why are they in your life?
	I'm not saying whether they should or shouldn't be, I'm just curious.
	A few years back, um, and they were like, Oh, you know, this is so hard.
	And like, um, you know, if it keeps going on like this, like, you know, just me being honest, basically, um, you know, we, I can't keep seeing and stuff.
	And I was like, okay, that's fine.
	And, um, then they sort of have been, um, like a lot nicer to me, really, but not A lot nicer, um, and, uh, she, she has been with me a lot more, um, not, not, um, you know, getting all whatever and defensive so much occasionally, but like.
	Okay.
	So, sorry, let me understand this.
	So you started being more honest.
	There was improvement is why.
	Okay.
	So you started being more honest with your parents a couple of years ago, right?
	Yeah.
	Well, a few years, let's say four or five years.
	I don't know.
	Okay.
	Is that the important part?
	I don't believe it is.
	Okay.
	So a number of years ago, you started becoming more honest with your parents and they threatened to cut you off?
	Yeah.
	Holy shit.
	But then capitulated and yeah.
	Wait, so they capitulated?
	They made the threat and then didn't follow through and capitulated to my needs more.
	And did you change your behavior?
	No.
	So you still continue to be honest and direct with them?
	I don't have that much of, like, I don't relate to them as much, like a lot, because I don't think they're very deep, but yeah, yes, yeah.
	Okay, so you were honest and direct with them, they said, we're gonna cut you off if you keep doing this, and then you kept doing it, and they didn't cut you off, is that right?
	And, um, made efforts, um, that have been continuous, um, to actually, uh, address my, uh, concerns.
	Yes.
	And a, what are your concerns and B, what have they done to address them?
	I'm not, I'm not disagreeing with you.
	I just want to make sure I understand.
	Um, oh, well, I talked to them about things in my childhood and like the cons.
	Sorry.
	It's hard to.
	At the best of times.
	I'll dig up all of this and tell it in the most direct way now.
	I said about how my priorities were ignored.
	Sort of, no.
	Worse than ignored.
	I got a lot of false choices and then they just get overridden and just trampled by my parents' will as a kid.
	What are false choices?
	I want A and they offer, well, no, you can have X or Y and you can have a choice. So it's a false
	Should I sort of, or...
	Or um something that's different to that is uh, so when we were a kid, um, you know, I was whatever let's say 10 And they wanted to move uh, you know a substantial distance across the world.
	Um For my dad's career and they discussed it all as a family and like We're like, we need to make sure that everyone agrees and everything.
	We'll go visit the place first, see how you feel about it and whatever.
	And my view was like, I don't want to leave my friends and life here.
	I just don't want to leave.
	And then, like, you know, we did the visit and stuff.
	I was like, sure, we can visit there.
	And I was like, yeah, it's a nice place.
	I don't have a problem with the place, but I don't want to leave.
	And then they...
	Just did anyway and then like gaslit me about it and we're like well no you agreed we talked about this stuff and just totally like gaslit me about how everything went even though I was completely consistent about it the whole time and oh so yeah I confronted them about that in the gaslighting and it was all excuse excuse and like mutually contradictory excuses and stuff and I was just like shooting it down like no you're just bullshitting you just said this like it can't be it's got to be one or the other like and I'm the only person who's been consistent in the story like I'm right, basically.
	And then just, this was a little bit like, so, oh, you know, why?
	And like, if you keep being so difficult, like, we won't be able to keep seeing you.
	And yeah, so, yeah.
	So did they ever admit fault?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And did they make apologies?
	Did they apologize and work to make restitution?
	They did apologize, but What restitution can that be?
	Like, they've improved their behavior, but, like... I didn't think about the restitution.
	It's like... What is restitution for, like, trampling over me and doing that when I'm a kid?
	I don't know.
	I can think of some very clear restitution.
	I'd like to hear your suggestions.
	Fetch your fucking wife.
	Of course.
	whatever Spend more time with your wife
	you Make sure she's the right person for you.
	Maybe your mom isn't so abrasive and drives your wife away.
	Maybe they come out and spend a weekend with you guys so that they can give her the once over and do something to help you.
	I mean, that's just the first thing.
	There could be any number of other things, but that would be one.
	Yeah.
	Wouldn't that be helpful?
	If they were capable of it, yeah.
	They're not capable of figuring out who might be good for you.
	What are you talking about?
	They're your parents.
	I mean, I haven't seen any indications of that, and they don't have the relationship that I would want.
	way, you know, go to someone for advice about a topic on which they have not achieved, you know?
	Well, did they stay married for more than six fucking months?
	Yeah, they're married.
	Okay, so they've been married for decades, so they have more knowledge than you, and they didn't give you that knowledge?
	Yeah.
	Did you ever talk to them about the fact that your mom's kind of a bully and that was a bad example to grow up with?
	No, I criticized the bullying.
	Um, oh yeah, no, I'm not sure if I directly said that was a bad example to grow up with.
	So you criticized your mom bullying you and your dad?
	Yeah, yeah.
	And what did she say?
	She evaded it but then actually did um Sort of
	Say i'm, sorry. Um, and has been better about it at least with me. Um
	Um, I think with my dad, uh, but I don't spend a lot of time with them.
	All right.
	So that was to some degree resolved, but they never made any resolution, right?
	Correct.
	They never said, gee, you know, you're right, you know, if you find this a bit of a bully when you were growing up, we should really sit down and talk about your girlfriend to make sure that you haven't fallen into the same trap.
	Because, you know, these patterns kind of can repeat, right?
	Yeah, God.
	Like that would be restitution, right?
	Yeah.
	They wouldn't say, well, you know, they would say, well, if you grew up with sort of a weak dad and kind of an aggressive mother, then we have to make sure that this isn't repeating with your girlfriend, right?
	That would be the next reasonable thing to do, right?
	Yeah.
	Now, did your parents know that you wanted to get married and not just move in together with your girlfriend?
	No, I don't think I discussed that with them.
	Really?
	So you moved in with your girlfriend and never told Your parents said this was kind of an ultimatum on her part because she wouldn't get married?
	I did not tell them that, no.
	Did you ever tell your parents that, and I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't have, I'm just curious, did you ever tell your parents that your girlfriend refused to marry you?
	No, I never told anyone.
	Did you tell your parents that your girlfriend refused to have children and is still maybe just was talking about maybe one and then we'll see?
	Yeah, I said that was her view, and I was like, well, you know, so I'll start with that.
	Yeah.
	Did they ever ask you why you were living for half a decade with a woman and not marrying her?
	No.
	So what the hell?
	I mean, what are you talking about?
	I don't understand.
	What's the point of any of this?
	I mean, you're not talking about anything important that's going on in your life.
	They're not offering you any wisdom or protection.
	Or insights?
	What is the point of any of this?
	Yeah.
	Okay, let's go back to when you were a kid.
	When you were a kid, do you remember your parents giving you wisdom that you found helpful in dealing with life's challenges?
	No.
	Ever?
	Not particularly.
	I mean, I guess it might have been like when I was a little kid, like, this is how a lid works and stuff.
	No, no, no.
	I mean, not practical crap.
	I mean, so your parents didn't give you any parenting?
	Pretty much.
	I mean, yeah.
	I mean, anybody can just feed you and wipe your ass, right?
	But it's the sort of knowledge of you and the wisdom that is provided by parents.
	That's parenting, right?
	Very, very little of that.
	No, you said none!
	Yeah, pretty much none.
	Okay, so, maybe there's a couple, but it's as close to zero.
	Because, normally, if you parent it well... It's like, well, if you're a fucking parent, it's as close to zero as you could possibly be, like... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Yeah, because normally parents should give you wisdom that you can take into adulthood,
	right?
	Yeah, yeah, that should be the case.
	Alright, drop my headset.
	Um, are they boomers?
	Yes, they are.
	Okay, so that's it, right?
	Boomers didn't parent.
	They didn't fucking parent.
	You know, Boomers... I wish I had a concrete example, but I don't.
	No, Boomers... Boomers had to have... They had to have... You know, the fucking television broadcaster needed to come on at ten o'clock at night.
	And do you know what they said?
	It's ten o'clock.
	Do you know where your children are?
	Like, Boomers didn't parent.
	Yeah.
	They didn't fucking parent at all.
	It's insane.
	I mean, not only did they abort a third of the Gen X's, but they didn't... They didn't parent.
	I didn't know that.
	Almost with Boomers.
	Yeah.
	So now you've got to go out and invent the wheel.
	Yourself, now!
	So you were talking about false... No, I was just like... Go ahead.
	I didn't have a fucking clue until I came across your show, really.
	Right, right, right.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Now, you're talking about false dichotomies, right?
	Oh, sorry, false choices, you said, right?
	So you'd want to do A, and they'd say you can choose between B and C, right?
	Yeah.
	So you say, and this is the pattern, right?
	So you say to your girlfriend, I want to get married, and she says, we can live together or we can break up.
	Well, she didn't say that, but yeah, I get you.
	Sorry.
	I said earlier, what would be the consequences if you held to get married, and what did you say?
	I think it would have, yeah.
	Okay, so your girlfriend says, maybe not explicitly, like we're adults here, we don't have to have everything spelled out, right?
	Yeah.
	So you say, I want to get, your girlfriend says, I want to live together, and you say, we have to get married, and she says, live together or break up.
	So the whole marriage thing goes out the window, it's live together or break up, and that's the false choices that your parents gave you, right?
	Fuck.
	Yeah, that's it.
	So when someone... I didn't see that.
	Yeah, so when you have a preference, this is the price of the parenting, right?
	Or the non-parenting.
	So when you have a preference and other people say, I'm going to ignore your preference, I'm going to give you two other alternatives, you're like, okay, well I guess my preference doesn't exist and I can only choose between these two other things, I don't want to break up with the girl, so I guess we'll live together.
	That's it.
	Right.
	Did you want your wife to move away for five days of the week?
	No, but I like it makes sense for Korea.
	So I was like, well, if you're going to be the career person, let's, uh, yeah, we'll, we'll prioritize that.
	It's just for a few months at most.
	Um, Oh, cause in a couple of months, your lease is up and you can move there.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	How does your girlfriend, I mean, we weren't even necessarily going to wait for the lease to be up.
	It's just like, well, a little bit more money, like not even that much of a deal.
	Like as soon as we can get a place I'm moving, like, yeah.
	Sorry, a little bit more money?
	What do you mean?
	Oh, like it would cost a little bit more money just to hold the lease for a couple months, whatever.
	Who cares?
	We'll find a place that works for us for her work and we'd move in.
	Like, we'd move.
	As soon as possible.
	And how long has your wife been doing this travel thing?
	Like a month.
	A month, okay.
	And how does she get along with her own parents?
	She Has a shallow relationship with her dad which she overvalues
	And doesn't get along well with her mom because she was pretty abusive when she was young like as a teenager at
	least Her mother was?
	Yeah.
	In what way?
	Oh, like, um...
	Uh one time she was Like having a fight with her.
	I I don't remember the details, but I remember they were having you know a bit of a fight and yelling and whatever and my You know, obviously not then my wife, but the my wife person.
	Um Screamed, um, I don't know if she was 13 or whatever but like, you know, uh, I hate you because she wasn't getting her way I guess or Sorry No, no.
	Oh, your wife screamed at her mother.
	And then the mother screamed back, like, I fucking hate you, too, or something like that.
	And yeah, like, you know, oh, my God, man.
	Why?
	Really fucked up shit.
	But why?
	Why?
	Why almost 20 years later?
	She's still living with them.
	Like she was in her late 20s, she's living with her parents, right?
	Yeah, well, she doesn't really relate to her parents and then, like, Not that he was very good in my estimation, but at least her father was something for her and she's over-attached to him.
	Is what I'd make of it.
	He was the crumbs that she had to survive on, I guess.
	Your mother-in-law and your wife, obviously, I hope their relationship improved than them screaming, I hate you with each other.
	And how is it now?
	I think it just died back.
	They don't really discuss things.
	You know, they can be, you know, in the same proximity, but like, yeah, no real talk.
	Okay.
	Do you like your in-laws?
	So why are they in your life?
	Because she's very attached to her dad and I went along with it
	Okay, so why are you going along with it?
	Like, where have you taken leadership in this relationship?
	And this, I know, this relationship is torched, but in general, like, for the next round, right?
	Like, where have you taken leadership?
	You say, look, this father is, like, over-attached, the mother is abusive and now really, really distant.
	I don't like them.
	Sorry, they hurt you.
	They hurt you, my wife.
	And because they hurt you, I don't like them.
	I don't want to spend time with them.
	They hurt you and they never apologize.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	I've said that to her, but like, and I was like, but you know, it's your decision.
	And yeah.
	Okay.
	So why, why, what happens if you say like, I don't like them and I don't want them to be part of this family unless they make apologies and restitution and like, Oh, because then she could turn and say, well, I don't like your parents either.
	Right.
	That's okay.
	If she didn't... She does like my father, but... But she doesn't like your mother, right?
	Correct.
	The abrasive thing, right?
	Yeah.
	So... But... Your mother wasn't screaming, I hate you at you, right?
	No.
	Okay.
	So, you know, this mother, and the father as well, they're a team as we know, right?
	There's not one better than the other.
	The parents did significant... That's what I tried to birch, but she just wouldn't hear criticism about her dad.
	Like, yeah.
	Sorry, you were saying?
	Sorry, you say she wouldn't hear criticism about her dad, like that's the end of it.
	That's the part I'm trying to get to, the lion heart, the spine.
	like...
	You're like, well I tried to broach it with her but she just wouldn't accept any criticism of her father.
	Okay, when roughly, was it in the first year or two years or whatever, you broached some, I guess you're listening to this show, talking with your own parents four or five years ago, being honest and direct, so when did you first notice and talk to her about some deficiencies in her family?
	Probably after I dealt with some things with my family.
	Okay, so four years ago or something like that, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so then you go to her and you say, you know, I have some issues with your family and what does she say?
	Yeah like totally would talk about it with her mother and then like if I was like but yeah your dad was like kind of uh you know there and she's like he was all I had and like and if I kept sort of uh pointing out sort of the issues uh she'd be like don't you know talk bad about my dad.
	Okay, so let's roll play this.
	Shut it down.
	I'm done.
	Hang on.
	Let's roll play this.
	Okay.
	So I say, listen, you just play your wife, right?
	So I say, listen, your dad had some issues, right?
	He was there.
	He should have intervened.
	He should have reduced the bullying that your mother did.
	He should never have accepted the screaming at you.
	He needed to step up and be more protective of you as a child.
	He did.
	He was there for me.
	He talked to my mother and said, you know, that's not gonna help.
	He was the only one who was there for me.
	Well, but you were still getting yelled at, right?
	And there were still problems with your mother, and I don't think he's ever stepped up, like, you and your mom seem super distant, and I don't know that he's ever stepped up and said, listen, ladies, we gotta sort this out, like, there's this weird distance in the family, like, he doesn't seem to me to be particularly assertive in solving family problems.
	I mean, you'd like to be close to your mom, you don't know how to do it, maybe you'd be able to.
	He protected me, he was the only support I had.
	Well, I'm not talking about that.
	I'm talking about issues that could have been better.
	Why was he the only support you had?
	Because he couldn't get your mom to be more reasonable and he chose her and he chose to have children with her.
	He knew what she was like and then you kind of took a lot of the brunt, right?
	So my question is why was he the only person who gave you any support?
	Why didn't he work harder to make your mom more reasonable?
	How can she do that?
	That's not who she is.
	How could you blame him for that?
	He did support me.
	Okay, let me ask you this.
	Do you think that your father knew that your mother had a vicious temper when he was dating her and marrying her and before he decided to give children to her?
	No, we didn't run into those issues until we were in high school.
	I was close with my mother.
	It was nice when I was a kid.
	Okay, so when your mother had this terrible temper, you know that these things are actually quite easy to solve, right?
	I mean, you can go to a 10-week... It was the alcohol!
	She just drank too much and then, like, blew up.
	Oh, and was your... Sorry, just remind me, did your mother work?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So, why wouldn't your father get her into rehab and get her into an anger management program and do things that would help in the family?
	He did what he could to support me and, like, prevent her from, like, continuing like that.
	But, like, you know, she wasn't going to do that.
	Well, what do you mean she wasn't going to do that?
	How do you know?
	Did you ever see your father say, listen, you absolutely can't drink, you're a mother, you can't be an alcoholic, you can't be screaming at your kids, this is absolutely unacceptable, I won't have it, you need to get to rehab.
	You need to get to anger management.
	He did that, she just didn't need to go to rehab, because he did, he said you can't do that, and... And what?
	It's been better.
	Oh, so she quit drinking?
	No, everybody's discouraged it, and like, you know, it's not as big of a problem now.
	Okay.
	Do you have any criticisms of your father or was he pretty much perfect.
	I don't have anything to criticize him about.
	you Now, you do understand that you criticize me, right?
	What are you talking about?
	Well, you have criticisms of me, right?
	Yeah, of course.
	Everyone does.
	Okay.
	Not with you, but like, you know, everyone has criticisms.
	No, I get that.
	So, you understand that this is messed up.
	Almost beyond words.
	That you have no criticisms of your father, but you have lots of criticisms of me.
	Why?
	Because your loyalty should be to me.
	He's my father, like... I'm your husband!
	But why are you trying to, like... Why are you trying to, like, cut me off from everyone else who supports me?
	You're not the only thing in my life.
	No, listen.
	Hey, I'm fine.
	If you want to have criticisms of me, that's fine.
	It means that you can criticize people you voluntarily chose, right?
	You chose me.
	So you have criticisms of me.
	You voluntarily chose me.
	You have no criticisms of your father.
	You never chose him as a father.
	It's just who we're born into.
	And he did marry a woman who was terrifically verbally abusive to her children, at times, and a drunk.
	So, of the two of us, let me ask you this.
	Have I ever screamed at you that I hate you?
	Or allowed anybody else to do that?
	No.
	Do I have a really great friend who lives with us who's a drinker?
	I do not.
	Do I drink myself?
	I do not.
	So you have no criticisms of your father who you didn't choose and who married a woman who verbally abused you and he enabled her drinking.
	Do you know how you don't enable someone's drinking?
	You say, get to rehab or we're divorcing.
	Because I will not have this around my children.
	What was he meant to do?
	Break up the home?
	Yes, exactly.
	Exactly.
	How is that going to help him?
	It gets her to rehab.
	It gets her to anger management.
	That's what you do.
	I just don't know if you can know that.
	Like, he didn't want to break up the home.
	He didn't want to, like... No, no.
	The point is not to break up the home.
	Do you know what an intervention is?
	Do you know what that is?
	Have you ever heard of that term?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so you know what an intervention is?
	An intervention is you have to go and get help or our relationship is over.
	And what's that?
	Is that designed to break up the relationship?
	Maybe.
	No!
	If you want to break up the relationship, you just break up the relationship.
	The point of an intervention is to say, this has become unacceptable, you have to go to rehab.
	And if you don't go to rehab, our relationship is over.
	The purpose is not to break up the relationship.
	The purpose is to get the person into rehab, right?
	But that's not a good choice.
	He didn't want the relationship to be over.
	No, you're not listening.
	What I'm saying is that you make these ultimatums to get the person into rehab.
	It's not to end the relationship.
	And most people, where there's an intervention, they get help.
	But it would have ended the relationship.
	I'm sorry?
	But it would have ended the relationship, or it might have.
	Well, okay, let me ask you this then.
	Did your father ever consult with a psychologist or a psychiatrist on how to handle his verbally abusive drunk wife?
	Did he ever go to family counseling?
	Did he ever go to couples counseling?
	Did he ever go to therapy himself to work?
	Because, you know, there are experts who know how to deal with these things.
	You know, if your wife has a toothache, you don't just sit her at home and give her some aspirin.
	You take her to an expert, right?
	Not that I know of.
	Okay, so he didn't consult any experts on how to deal with this huge problem, right?
	Okay, did your mother drink when she was younger?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so did your father decide to have children with a woman who was a drunk?
	I don't know if it was a problem then.
	Okay, but she drank, right?
	I guess.
	I don't know if she was, like, a drinker and, like, a problem, like, she... Are you saying that your mother had no negative characteristics before you became a teenager?
	I think it was hard on her to move to this country and then it was a problem and the drinking didn't help.
	Okay, so she handled the move with drinking, is that right?
	Well, she tried to deal with it by drinking, I guess.
	I don't know.
	She lent on drinking.
	Okay so she became verbally abusive horribly and she drank to excess right.
	Sometimes.
	Did she ever drive with you or even alone while intoxicated?
	No.
	Alright.
	So, your father didn't consult with any experts, he didn't try and get any help, and do you know if he ever did say or demand that she go to rehab and or anger management courses?
	No, but, like, that's not the only thing.
	He did try to, like, get in the way, prevent her, and, well, discouraged drinking.
	He supported me.
	He did get me professional help when I was struggling in high school.
	Like, he did so much.
	Oh, fantastic!
	He did, like, everything for me.
	Oh, that's great news.
	I'm sorry.
	I appreciate you.
	I'm so sorry.
	I'd forgotten about that.
	That's fantastic.
	So your father knew that professional help was important when someone was struggling.
	So he must have tried to get that for your mother.
	I guess so.
	I don't know about any of that.
	She never did.
	Well, did you ever hear anything?
	I mean, I assume that would have been quite a conflict.
	You probably would have heard about it.
	Did you?
	Because, you know, your father says, listen, daughter, you've got to go to therapy because, right, blah, blah, blah.
	But he never demanded that of his wife that you know of?
	I don't know that, no.
	Okay.
	Do you think that he should have pushed for her to get help with her drinking and rage issues?
	He did what he could, like, I don't know why... No, you're not answering the question.
	What's the point of this?
	No, you don't... But what's the point of this?
	Like, why do you have to have such an issue with my dad?
	Like, I have a relationship that I enjoy with my dad.
	He's the only person who supported me in my life when I was younger.
	Like, why?
	Like, I'm done.
	I don't want to talk about this.
	Well, that's too bad, because I do.
	And we have to respect each other's wishes, right?
	Well, I'm...
	Not going to.
	I'm done.
	I can't talk about this right now.
	And she would leave.
	She would leave there.
	Okay, then I would leave her.
	Yeah, because I can't be with people who just storm out of conversations.
	That's not a relationship.
	Because she's asking you to overcome your objection.
	to living together, rather than being married, right?
	If you're willing to do that, then she at least has to... if you're willing to compromise on, you know, a foundational practical and moral consideration, then she can stay in an uncomfortable conversation, right?
	And what I would say to her if she stayed, is I would say, look, the reason why this is a problem is that you were still living at home in your late twenties, that's not healthy, you Wouldn't commit to marry me, but rather, in a sense, threatened to break up with me if you didn't get your way.
	That's kind of aggressive, and I regret having said yes to that, but that's not great.
	You, um, didn't end up taking the marriage very seriously.
	Like, you didn't end up taking the living together very seriously, because you wouldn't get married.
	I did take it seriously, is what her objection would be, as well.
	Well, no, because I wanted to get married.
	I wanted to get married, you wanted to live together.
	How long did we live together without getting married?
	I don't know, maybe... What was it?
	Six years?
	Seven years?
	Alright, so six or seven years.
	We lived together without getting married.
	Do you think that's what I wanted?
	I just fogged on that.
	I don't know what she would say.
	No, she couldn't say it was what you wanted because you kept trying to get her to marry you, right?
	I somehow don't think she would...
	I think she'd be evasive about that.
	Well, no, but she couldn't... I mean, she couldn't deny that you wanted to marry her, right?
	No.
	Okay, so... So, I would say, the problem is that I compromised, thinking we could live together for a year or two and then get married, and then I kept wanting to get married, and you kept saying no.
	I want a lot of kids, what if you told me?
	I've been open that I want a lot of kids, and what if you told me?
	One, maybe, then we'll see, right?
	That's my choice.
	I don't know.
	I want one kid, but it's difficult.
	How can I know that ahead of time?
	But here's the point.
	Can you think of a time where you've compromised and given me what I want, even if it goes against what you want?
	I could think of half a dozen to a dozen times that I've done that.
	I'm not saying that was a good thing, I'm just saying that that's happened.
	Can you think of a time?
	Of course, we went in that house where the toilet was so out of the way and it was because you wanted the garden, like, that was for you.
	Yes, but you didn't care about it that much.
	Yeah, I did.
	I didn't realize how bad it was.
	Are you saying... Okay, come on.
	Listen, honey.
	Let's get our heads screwed on straight here.
	Are you trying to tell me that not marrying me for six years is equivalent to a couple of extra steps to the toilet?
	Well, no, but it's not like I never do anything.
	No, but you brought that up as something equivalent or something that's a response.
	Give me a big thing where you've compromised.
	I do, I do, I do things for you all the time.
	A big thing where you compromise and do what I want, which you don't want to do.
	I don't know.
	Right.
	So you can't think of any.
	I can think of at least half a dozen to a dozen of the other way, right?
	Now, I'm not saying this makes you bad or me good, because it's been... What do you mean half a dozen to a dozen?
	We were just talking about, like, one thing, and... No, I mentioned... Then we just worked out the time to get married.
	I mentioned three things.
	Do you remember what they are?
	No, we're just talking about, like, that we didn't get married a little sooner.
	A little sooner?
	Six fucking years, honey!
	What are you talking about a little sooner?
	What's the big deal?
	See, now that's interesting, right?
	That's very interesting to me.
	I'm very passionate about something and feel very strongly about it.
	And for you, it's like, what's the big deal?
	But what's the difference?
	It's just like marriage.
	We were practically married and living together anyway.
	Well, you know the argument about that.
	Well, if it's no difference, then let's just get married.
	I wasn't ready to get married.
	That doesn't mean anything.
	That's just a meaningless statement.
	The whole point of compromise in a relationship is sometimes you do what the other person wants even if you don't want to, because you care about that person and want them to be happy.
	And your happiness comes from giving the other person what they want, right?
	Yeah, and I do lots of things for you.
	Well, I just asked you for examples and all you could think of was the toilet.
	Sir, what?
	I can't think of everything now.
	Like, I do lots of things for you all the time.
	Okay, like, give me a big example.
	Not a little thing, but a big thing.
	What's the last time that you did something for me?
	Well, I do lots of little things.
	Doesn't that count?
	Like, I do lots of little things for you constantly.
	Okay, give me an example of something that you do for me that you don't want to do.
	Well, you're more into plants.
	I didn't want to go to... Well, it was for you that I go to the garden show and all that sort of thing.
	It's more your interest than mine.
	Okay, so, Garden Show.
	You come to the Garden Show when you don't want to go, right?
	Because you want to make me happy.
	Well, I don't want to make it out like I'm a mutter or anything, but I do lots of things for you that are mostly for you.
	Okay, it's Garden Show, what else?
	I don't know, like, I...
	Got those pyjamas for you the other day.
	I buy things for you, get you... No, no, but that's not expensive.
	That doesn't cost you anything.
	What do you mean?
	Of course, everything costs, like... No, I don't mean money.
	I'm not talking about money.
	No, no.
	I'm talking about something... Like, you buying me pyjamas is not a self-sacrifice, right?
	Like, when I said, I want to get married, and you said, basically, we live together or we break up... Well, what do you mean it's not a self-sacrifice?
	I'm very thoughtful.
	I do lots of nice things.
	But it's not a self-sacrifice.
	Like, you buying me pajamas doesn't come at the cost of your own values.
	Me living together with you rather than getting married came at the cost of my own values.
	What does that even mean?
	I told you at the time, I want to get married, not live together.
	Yeah, and we disagreed and got married later.
	So you got what you wanted.
	No, I didn't get what I wanted, because I wanted to get married, not live together.
	And we've done both.
	But... So you got what you wanted.
	It took six years.
	I didn't want that.
	That's why I kept asking you to marry me.
	So what?
	I need to do everything for you when you want it?
	Well, no, because if you believed that, we would have been married six years ago and we'd have five children.
	Yeah, so that's ridiculous.
	Why?
	That's not a compromise.
	That's not what I want.
	Like, it shouldn't just be all about you.
	Well, when is it about me, other than the garden show and the toilet?
	Um, my whole life, I married you.
	Are you saying that that was a sacrifice, that you didn't want to do it?
	No, but... Okay, so with you... Like, it's all about you.
	I don't know if this is complicated.
	My whole life is about you.
	I don't know, honey.
	Honey, I don't know if this is complicated.
	I married you.
	Like, I have other things.
	Hang on, hang on.
	But I am committed to marrying you.
	How can you criticize me about this?
	Hang on.
	The category we're talking about are things that you compromise because they make me happy, but it's not what you want to do.
	So I hope the marriage doesn't fall into that category, because then we just have to get divorced right now.
	Right?
	So I can think of a bunch of things, right?
	I mean, obviously the big three, and there's more, but the big three are Living together, and then also not getting married for six years.
	I wanted to get it done much sooner.
	And we're now, you know, you're 36 or whatever, and we're only talking about maybe one kid.
	I want a lot of kids.
	Right?
	So, and this is not... I'm not saying I've done a big, wonderful thing here.
	It's actually been bad for us both in a lot of ways.
	But I think I was... Yeah, but it's giving someone how many kids they need.
	It's not like you have to have the child.
	I have to do that, like...
	And it's my choice.
	Like, I want to have a child.
	I don't know.
	I've never had a child before.
	I want to have one.
	And yeah, we'll see.
	Like, how can I know that ahead of time?
	How can you?
	You don't know if you want to have kids, right?
	Yeah, I want to have a child, but I don't know if I want to have more than one child.
	Because you don't know if you'll enjoy motherhood.
	No.
	So you probably shouldn't have a child if you don't know if you're going to enjoy motherhood.
	Because you have a child for the rest of your life.
	You'll have a child for the next 50 years.
	What do you mean?
	I'll love my child.
	Like, what are you talking about?
	So you'll love your child, so then why wouldn't you want more children to love?
	Well, it's difficult.
	Like, it's like... No, you just said you'll love your child.
	It's not difficult at all.
	You just said you'll love your child.
	Yes.
	So it's not difficult at all?
	No, because then I want to do what's best for them, and it's harder to have more kids.
	What do you mean it's harder to have more kids?
	If I love my child, it might be best that they don't have other siblings.
	No, it's generally better for children to have siblings.
	Well, not for me.
	I don't really like my brother.
	Well, but the problem is we can't resolve any of the issues with your family because you won't criticize.
	Your father, at least, right?
	Yeah, look, I told you I'm sick of talking about my father.
	Right, so here's an example of something that's really important to me that comes at a bit of a cost for you, and what are you doing?
	Are you making the sacrifice?
	No!
	I feel like you keep bothering me about this.
	Why?
	You're the problem.
	I need to talk about it.
	You keep bringing up the problem.
	How is that helpful?
	No, it's my father.
	I need to talk about it.
	So you put on your big girl panties, you sit down, like an adult, and talk about it with me.
	Because I need to talk about it.
	I'm sorry that it makes you uncomfortable, but I need to talk about it.
	With you.
	So you grow up and you talk about it with me.
	Well, you don't have to talk about it with me.
	I don't want to hear about it.
	No, it doesn't matter what you need.
	It matters what I need to talk about it.
	Oh, so now it doesn't matter what I need.
	Right.
	In the same way it didn't matter to you... Look, if that's going to be the conversation, I don't think it is quite of a conversation.
	In the same way that it didn't matter to you that I wanted to get married and not live together, and I compromised on that.
	So you compromise on this, so you're not selfish.
	Oh, so why isn't me selfish in this?
	Because I want to talk about your father.
	I want something too.
	I don't want to talk about it.
	Right.
	And I don't have to talk about it if I don't want to talk about it.
	You absolutely don't.
	You absolutely don't have to talk about it.
	I'm not going to force you to.
	I'm just saying that if it's one-way street, this is a terrible relationship for me.
	In other words, if I sacrifice for you my comfort and my standards to make you happy, but you don't sacrifice to me, it's exploitation and you're just selfish.
	You're kind of like your mom.
	No!
	There's one thing that I'm sick of you bothering me about.
	We talked about your father for about 10 minutes.
	10 minutes.
	Yeah, and that was enough.
	I put off marriage for six fucking years and you can't talk for more than ten minutes.
	I was uncomfortable only living together.
	I put up with that for six years and you can't do more than ten minutes of something I need.
	Do you see how unbalanced that is?
	How selfish that is?
	What do you mean?
	What difference does it make?
	Married, not married?
	Okay, let me ask you this.
	Do you understand that there's a difference between six years and ten minutes?
	Well, don't be stupid.
	Why are we going around in circles like this?
	No, no.
	Just answer the question.
	Do you understand that that's different, right?
	So, if I put up with something that I didn't want to... Yes, of course, it's different.
	Excellent.
	Okay, good.
	So, if I put up with something that I didn't want to put up with, which was not being married for six years, And you can't do something that's uncomfortable for you for ten minutes.
	Or more than ten minutes.
	That's... not fair, right?
	That's not the same thing.
	We got married.
	Right.
	After six years.
	I gave you what you wanted.
	After six years.
	Like, I just didn't do it exactly when you wanted it.
	After si- no, come on, it's not exactly, it's after six years.
	Okay, so after six years, I finally got what I wanted, and you can't handle ten minutes.
	I was uncomfortable for six years.
	You can't be happy about getting what you want.
	Why are we fighting about when you got what you wanted?
	You did get what you wanted.
	By this logic, by this exact logic, honey, by this exact logic, I get six years to talk about your dad, and after that, I'll stop talking about your dad, and you'll get what you want.
	Because I put up with not being married for six years, which was not what I wanted.
	So you, after six years, by this logic, after six years, I'll stop talking about your dad and you'll get what you want.
	It's exactly the same, right?
	You're being so obtuse and it's not the same thing, like... No, it is.
	It is the same thing.
	I was uncomfortable, you got what you wanted for six years.
	No, you, like, we just didn't have a piece of paper that's not the same thing as bothering me about this.
	Like, you've done that plenty.
	No, it bothered me.
	I don't appreciate it.
	No, it bothered me.
	I told you that repeatedly and you knew that.
	It bothered me.
	And I gave you what you wanted.
	After six years?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so you can't do ten minutes for me, but I do six years.
	Why can't you just be happy for getting what you want?
	I do si- I do si- Like, why do I give you anything if I give you what you want and then you're gonna be upset about me?
	Okay, so I give you six years, you give me ten minutes.
	I can't win, you're just attacking me for what I've done right now.
	So, I give you six years, you can't even give me ten minutes, and you consider that equal?
	It's not the same thing.
	And now you're bothering me about this.
	Why?
	It's not an issue.
	It's not the same thing.
	Sorry, just to break the role play, you're doing a fantastic job.
	I would absolutely not continue this conversation with this person.
	They're never going to listen.
	They have no capacity to self-reflection.
	They're never going to listen.
	They don't understand basic logic, or at least they pretend not to.
	Incredibly selfish.
	Narcissistic, almost.
	I use that in an amateur sense, of course.
	But that's just absolutely impossible to talk to.
	And zero empathy, zero capacity to put herself in someone else's shoes.
	Right, so you heard the logic.
	Oh, she has capacity for that, but like when she really is emphatic about something, like on something that she really, yeah, yeah.
	What?
	I don't know what that means.
	Yeah, like, on something where she's, like, not willing to go, yeah.
	That's what it's like.
	But that's what empathy is.
	When you don't want to do something, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so is this how your girlfriend talks?
	In that sort of argument, yeah.
	Right.
	I was trying to emulate it a bit, like, obviously it's not the right tone and, like, you know, pitch.
	Why on earth would you be with her?
	Like, what's the plus?
	I mean, she's horrible in how you're portraying, and I'm sure you're accurate, right?
	But this is just nonsense.
	Only a few things like that is what I was like, oh, there's a few things that are a real issue.
	No, but that's why you appease.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	I tried standing up to her.
	Exactly.
	And what happened?
	Gaslight, minimizing, fogging, reversal, pretending, comprehension, jumping out of the conversation, insults, right?
	I mean, it's absolutely impossible to have any kind of negotiation with someone like that.
	Yeah, that's how it was in those things, I suppose.
	So why?
	Why would you put yourself through that?
	I guess that's the best I could ever get previously.
	I understand that, but why?
	Why is that the best you could ever get?
	I don't know.
	Maybe just because I accepted it.
	Well, but that's circular.
	I know.
	That's just another way of saying, that's, I mean, that's the best I could get.
	I accepted it.
	But why?
	Because she's the kind of person, first of all, I'm not a very hot-tempered person, but that was about as grating, irritating, and annoying a conversation as I've had in years.
	That's insufferable behavior on her part.
	I mean, you had to get angry from time to time.
	Or did you just avoid the anger by appeasing?
	Yeah, or putting it off for now and like, you know, rationalize it as being like,
	oh well, she'll cool down and like, I guess she's not ready to do address that yet,
	but we'll work on that and, you know, just yes, appeasing sort of.
	No, she's very hedonistic, right?
	She operates on the pleasure principle, and if something's uncomfortable, it must be bad, right?
	And I absolutely would not in a million years accept a woman Who had criticisms of me, but only praise for her father, because that means she's far more loyal to her father than she is to me, and that's just bizarre.
	That's like... It's the Oedipus Complex or something, like, that's weird, at a very foundational level.
	Right?
	Because her father's perfect, which means all of his imperfections have to slide onto someone else, right?
	And that's gonna be you.
	I don't know why I'm laughing, but yeah.
	No, but you know what I mean, right?
	Oh, God.
	Like, if she says, my father's perfect, it's great. Okay.
	So, we have kids, I'll be a father, so now I'm perfect.
	So you can't criticize me.
	Right? So you see how it worked.
	Her father could marry a drunk, sit by while she verbally abuses the kids, not assert
	himself at all, and that's totally fine,
	but you ask for a few minutes of uncomfortable conversation and you're just a terrible person?
	That's mental.
	Like, the moral priorities there are completely deranged.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah.
	Having your wife drunk and screaming at your kids, totally fine, he's just doing the best he can, nothing to admire, no criticisms, right?
	You're raising a couple of irrational questions, you're just terrible.
	Like, that's morally insane.
	I, I, morally insane.
	Yeah.
	So what if you pick, like, how many, how many of these kinds of conversations have you had
	over the course of your relationship, sort of six or seven years?
	Usually, like, doesn't drag on for a very long time, but I don't know.
	Well, that's because you fold, right?
	Say it doesn't.
	It doesn't.
	So, like, two a year kind of thing?
	And do you feel that if you had continued that It would have gotten nowhere because it did get nowhere,
	right?
	I can't see it like because but I don't know it's all fucked up
	So I guess it would have but like Just recently I was like, okay.
	Well, you know Sorting out some more career stability and like progress and then like yeah, we'll start having children and so That's sort of the goals I was working towards in a short time span.
	How would your kids have negotiated with her?
	Yeah.
	No, I mean, it's a serious question.
	I mean, if you as an adult can't negotiate with her at all, how is a three-year-old supposed to do it, or a five-year-old,
	or a ten-year-old?
	Like, you don't have the right to put your kids in that situation, do you?
	No God I feel like such an idiot amalgamation like fuck up of
	all the stupid shit i've ever heard No, no!
	But that's fantastic news!
	This is as great a news as could be conceived of in this shit situation.
	I'm not trying to say be happy, but I'm saying this is about the greatest news you can get at the moment.
	Yeah, I needed to see it.
	Why is it the greatest news?
	Well, because I can fix that for next time, hopefully.
	No.
	Well, sure, but why?
	Why is it now?
	Good news.
	Great news.
	The best news.
	Bullet fucking dodged, brother.
	Oh, it doesn't feel that way.
	Well, that's because you're not getting it yet.
	No, it's not the bullet for you.
	It's not the bullet for you.
	It's not the bullet for you.
	Who's the bullet, Dodger, here?
	For the children, of course.
	The children?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Because your children, I mean, can you imagine?
	You're folding and cucking and apologizing and wringing your hands and trailing after this witch like a puppy dog.
	What does your son look at you and say?
	Horrible repeat of my fucking parents.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Except your mom.
	I mean, is your mom like this, too, in the way that this woman was in the roleplay?
	Not really.
	But actually, yeah, worse in some ways, I guess.
	Yeah, in some ways, I'll say.
	I mean the roleplay was worse, wasn't it?
	Like, yeah, in some ways I'll say.
	Okay, so it's not like your parents, it's worse than your parents.
	Yeah.
	So then you either get ground down into nothing and your children kinda hold you in contempt, which is a horrible
	feeling, I imagine.
	You either get ground down to nothing or you try to stand up for yourself when she's got the entire fucking legal might of the government behind her.
	And then what happens?
	Oh.
	Nothing good for the kids.
	Or you.
	Sure.
	I mean you'll be living in a car praying for death Don't know why because it's like kind of shitty and white
	90 but I was like maybe she fucked up everything to try to save
	me from that It just came to me, but like... Well, I don't know, obviously.
	I'm not really showing too much sympathy for her.
	No, listen.
	Whatever saves you from this fate is to be blessed!
	Yeah.
	So my guess is it doesn't have much to do with you.
	My guess is she really doesn't want to be a mom.
	And so she goes off the pill.
	Yeah.
	Do you know how long this affair's been going on?
	I really don't know.
	It could be all of the time, emotionally.
	It could be since, like, January, physically, in this instance, at least.
	Possibly with other times when he was here in the past.
	I don't know.
	I just don't know.
	Okay, but you went back on the texts on her phone, right?
	And, like, there's a lot of, like, very traumatizing stuff to see.
	I went back, like, a few days.
	It's, like, plenty of incriminating, like... Okay, so she... She obviously is... I mean, the fact that it happened and you found out about it right after she goes off the pill and you guys are talking about having kids is not an accident.
	Yeah, you're probably right.
	You know why?
	Because when you try to have kids, shit gets real, right?
	Like you were talking about, well, I want us to take living together really seriously, but you didn't!
	Yeah.
	Neither of you did.
	Because what's the purpose of getting married and living together?
	To have some children!
	And you guys wait till you're 36, are you crazy?
	Yeah.
	You guys were playing house at best!
	I was like, yeah, I just might be fucking crazy.
	No, no, at best you're just playing house, right?
	It's like this extended sleepover.
	Yeah.
	And then, you start to, you know, time marches on and you're like, okay, well let's, now we're having kid.
	Yeah!
	Right?
	Done.
	So, had this guy not texted her late at night before?
	God, I don't know.
	But you hadn't heard it, right?
	It's not something that had hit me before, or it's anything unusual, or... Yeah, I don't know.
	But it didn't strike you.
	It struck you this time, right?
	Yeah.
	Now, if you're just...
	Having sex with a married woman.
	And what time was it at night that he texted?
	I'm a little concerned I've gotten herpes as well.
	Geez.
	Sorry, but... Well, hopefully that wasn't the message you got.
	No, no, I just got... Well, yeah, might as well tell that story now.
	Fairly recently, a few weeks ago, she had an ulcer on her...
	Uh, yeah.
	Okay, we don't have to get too graphic here, but you've got concerns that there was a sore that could have transmitted, right?
	I didn't know that was a thing, that you can get just an ulcer on it, and she went to the doctors and got checked out and told me, oh yeah, it's just an ulcer, um, yeah, and I'll put Vaseline on it, and like, it just, you know, it's just an ulcer, it'll solve itself, and I was like, oh, I didn't know that was a thing, and then a few days later, and ever since, I've had some mouth ulcers.
	Some what?
	Oh, you've had some ulcers.
	I'm getting checked out today.
	Yeah.
	Oh, you got it checked out today?
	No, I'm good.
	That's the plan.
	Oh, you're going to go and get it checked out today.
	Okay.
	Sorry.
	Time zone difference.
	All right.
	Well, I obviously, fingers crossed about that.
	All right.
	So why does a guy text a married woman very late at night?
	Cause he's horny.
	Well, oh no, in this case, but like, I mean, no, a married woman, like you wouldn't typically, I can't think of anything.
	Alright, so why would you?
	Um...
	Not specific to being married, but...
	If you're horny and you're a...
	That kind of guy.
	So, the reason why you text a married woman late at night is to produce exactly the kind of scene that happened.
	Oh.
	Right, because it's late at night, right?
	So, the bing!
	Right?
	And the husband might look at it and so-and-so has left a message or whatever, right?
	And then he says to his wife, who's so-and-so?
	And then all the shit comes out, right?
	So the reason you text a married woman late at night is to blow up the marriage.
	Sure.
	Which is what happened, right?
	Yeah.
	So that you can get with the woman.
	I think he's a homeworking dickhead who's not going to commit to her.
	I don't think there's any... Well, it's not going to work, but that's the thinking, right?
	Of course.
	You don't accidentally text someone when they're home with their husband late at night without wanting to screw things up for her, right?
	It's just, like, life-wise was such a strange time to throw your hat in the ring thinking anything is going to come from it, but okay, sure.
	You mean for the guy?
	Yeah, like, what are you gonna make of—anyway, you're just gonna burn through, like, at best, the rest of the—until they get through the sweet first stuff, and then it's just gonna go to shit.
	Well, but unless she's been talking about— Hang on, but unless she—and I don't know, we're just theorizing here—unless she's talking to him about wanting out, and then he's like, well, I can help her with that.
	I'll text her at midnight.
	The only stuff that wasn't just, like, Totally sexual was really petty bitching about me that I saw like just like oh the slightest little fucking there's some stuff next to the the like, you know next to the fucking uh dish drying rack thing again, like just like just being really petty and nasty about the pettiest insignificant bullshit like Uh, yeah.
	Anyway, that was the only thing that wasn't them just being like Uh, yeah The other stuff.
	Right.
	So, he's helping her out.
	He's white knighting to get her out of this terrible blah blah blah, right?
	Or this stupid whatever she's talking about.
	Yeah, maybe he sees it as, yeah.
	So, man.
	I mean, it's really, really, really tough.
	I get that.
	But, I'm certainly happy to hear any scenario through which moving forward wouldn't be a complete disaster, like if you hadn't found this out.
	You're absolutely right.
	If that was a statement.
	Yeah, no, that's, yeah.
	I mean, if she, I mean, by God, if she gave you an STD, that's beyond appalling because isn't herpes.
	I'm not an expert.
	I think it's pretty permanent.
	But hopefully that's not the case.
	I don't know.
	I'm hoping for not bad news.
	We'll see.
	But, I mean, if she was pregnant now, like, you're locked in for 20 years, bro.
	When you said that, I got a shudder.
	No, no, seriously.
	And she could have gotten pregnant.
	When did she go off the pill?
	Um, let's say February.
	Um, I hope she's not pregnant.
	God, I hope she's not pregnant.
	Um, but we- Well, and of course you wouldn't even know whose it was, right?
	Trying, yeah.
	Um, so it would be very unlikely to be mine if she is pregnant.
	Why?
	Oh, because she wanted to wait until she was solid in her job, um, from a legal stance through probationary period.
	Oh, so you haven't been having procreative sex, even though she's been off the pill?
	Yeah.
	So she, you know, it's good to do that.
	Like, cause there can be issues to sort out.
	So, you know, it's good to do that before you like, not just go off it and then think, Oh, am I instantly going to get pregnant?
	Oh, so you've like been using a condom or?
	Uh, more like not having procreative sex at times where it's
	high risk of pregnancy sorry was there more
	It sounded like you cut off just in the middle there.
	Sorry, someone tried to call again and it cut through.
	Could you ask anything?
	Sure, sure.
	No, it's fine.
	So you have been avoiding procreative sex when she's ovulating, right?
	Yes, okay.
	All right.
	Well and um Yeah, yeah, so it's it's actually very unlikely, um, but um at least with me but also, um like I thought it made sense and then I think it's actually just about like then going to fuck another partner the same day or the next day or whatever because um, she did not want me to even when that was a very like to almost no risk of um, Pregnancy to come in her recently and um, oh she might have been sore the other guy, right?
	Or maybe or or just yeah, anyway, I don't know it's all just so gross but um Hmm Sorry, um... No, that's fine, I wasn't... I didn't want to interrupt your thought.
	...the best put together at the moment.
	Right.
	Okay, so... No, I'm having trouble... No, so, so listen, I mean, this is, this is a terrible, terrible sad situation, and I'm not, you know, gonna say, like, yay, but the light at the end of the tunnel is bullet dodged.
	For you and your kids.
	And then you have to figure out how this shit cannot happen again.
	And I don't know what that means.
	What about your friends?
	Did your friends like your girlfriend when back when in the day?
	Um Thank you.
	Bye-bye.
	She hasn't really been very social with my friends.
	I don't have a lot of friends.
	Um, and like, I'm not cultivating friendships, but, um, okay.
	What about, yeah, so I've got like, say I've got, um, it's sort of a newer and like, not super close, but absolutely great Christian guy and everything.
	Um, who's like not really met her until our wedding and stuff.
	So like, you know, the people who might have the best insight, we didn't really, weren't really, um, around her.
	What about your sister?
	I actually like my sister, she's... No, what did your sister think of your girlfriend?
	Yeah, I think everyone's been really shocked that this is what... yeah.
	Sorry, what did your sister think of your girlfriend back in the day?
	Yeah, I think she liked... yeah, oh gosh, sorry, it's throughout my wife's name.
	Okay, so your sister liked her?
	Yeah.
	I didn't know her very well.
	Did she spend much time around her?
	No.
	So, my sister lives near my parent.
	Did your sister know that you wanted to get married, not live together?
	Did your sister know that you were trying to get her married?
	Did your sister know that you wanted a fairly large number of kids?
	The last one.
	But no, otherwise I didn't talk to her about... Why are you hiding everything from people?
	You don't tell your parents, you don't tell your sister, you don't tell your friends.
	That's a big red flag.
	That's a big red flag.
	It means that you're in a world with no feedback, no outside view.
	Exactly, yeah.
	So why do you hide things from people?
	I think I learned not to because I always got like Crushed if I, or like totally disregarded or gaslit about it when I was growing up, if I really had a preference and like, it was at, you know.
	No, no, I'm not talking about a preference.
	I'm talking about.
	Why do you hide the challenges with your girlfriend from everyone?
	Like, why can't you say my girlfriend wants to move in?
	I want to get married.
	I think she'll break up with me if we, if I, if I have hold onto that request or that demand.
	Or, you know, I keep asking my girlfriend to marry me, she keeps saying she's not ready, but I want a lot of kids, and she's now in her thirties, like, why?
	Because you don't, I mean, it's something, because you didn't call me, right?
	You call me now!
	Right.
	But you didn't call me then!
	So why do you keep everything secret?
	Why do you wrestle with all this stuff alone?
	You know, I'm trying to think but like I like it comes up so much like
	My brain just goes like I don't know like you should say I don't know
	Okay, well, I'll tell you why, if you want to know.
	Do you want to know?
	I really want to know.
	Because your girlfriend doesn't want you talking about it.
	Oh.
	Because she doesn't want you to have allies.
	First things that dysfunctional people do is cut you off from people around yourself.
	Oh, that's why she was so defensive and scared and like, oh don't cut me off from uh, yeah, because that's what oh Because that was in on her radar too as a thing, right I didn't even think of that.
	So it's another form of it's another form of complying with her preferences Never I haven't thought about that before So, you have a problem, you talk about it with people, and not just with the person, right?
	Because we can't be good in isolation.
	Goodness comes out of conversation.
	If you think of the number of things that we've discovered together in this conversation, two hours and a bit, right?
	You can't be good without a conversation.
	You can't have virtue without a conversation.
	Your girlfriend did not want you to become virtuous, so you didn't call me to comply with her, and you didn't talk to your sister to comply with her, and you didn't talk to your mother and father to comply with her, and you didn't talk to your friends about things to comply with her.
	She wanted you isolated, so that you wouldn't get any feedback that might have you shake your head and say, this is a bad idea.
	Yeah, okay.
	Like, yeah, she wasn't, like, at all aggressive about anything like that, but just never gave any energy to that sort of, like—or, like, on a—you know, like, it's not—it's just been a few, like, meetups with— No, you are—no, but you are—you are so compliant.
	You are so compliant that even if she expresses anything negative, you won't do it.
	And you just you can't do that.
	Not that bad.
	No, no, no, I mean, until you know, right?
	Until you know why, right?
	Right.
	So you can't, you can't be more honest than your least honest relationship.
	You can't have more strength than your weakest relationship or the relationship in which you are viewed the weakest or treated the least.
	Right.
	The girlfriend and the wife is a shadow cast by the mother and the father, and maybe the sister too.
	We didn't get into her and we don't really have time, but don't be in relationships where you can't be direct and honest.
	Yeah, because she's had similar issues.
	Divorce and stuff.
	My sister is kind of the story, but yeah, except she had children first, which is awful, but well, I mean, the child's amazing.
	It's a great kid, but you know, it's an awful situation, right?
	So this is why I say, you know, it's really tough to get married and be a good husband and father if you're cucking to your parents, if you're weak with your parents, if you bow down to your parents, if they view you as lesser or inferior or unimportant or, you know, and you're nothing to your parents, it seems to me.
	You spent six or seven years of your life With a woman they only spent a couple of hours with?
	That's fucked up.
	Like, where's your preference?
	Well, they live far away.
	Like, I don't know why people pull this shit with me.
	I gotta tell you, brother, it's completely bizarre.
	Well, they live far away.
	Hey, question, do you and I live close together?
	No, we live on the opposite side of the fucking planet!
	Does that mean we can't have any honest conversations?
	It's free!
	I mean, people got to know each other through fucking letters that took a month to get delivered.
	Your parents can't get on a video call with you guys and see how you're doing?
	They live far away.
	Like, why do people try this shit with me?
	It's incredible.
	It's unbelievable, the excuses.
	Like, when you hear that giant sucking sound, it's your own head coming out of your ass.
	Because, you know, well, they live far away.
	Like, you understand, that's ridiculous.
	You're literally talking to a guy when we're on the opposite sides of the earth.
	I really appreciate you making the time, by the way.
	No, that's fine.
	I mean, I get that it was a bit of an emergency, but your parents should be looking out for you.
	They should care about you.
	They shouldn't let you lose six years of your life, in a way.
	I'm not saying it's all been a waste.
	This is not where you want to be in your mid-thirties.
	But, damn, it was a waste.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	And, you know, maybe with medical effects too, right?
	So, they should be looking out for you, right?
	And if they're not looking out for you, what the fuck are they for?
	If they're not watching your back, what are they for?
	If they don't care about you enough to get to know your girlfriend, what are they for?
	Well, therefore, their preference is not yours.
	You understand, the exploitation that we were talking about with your role play of your girlfriend comes from your parents.
	Yeah.
	They want things from you.
	They won't even get to know your girlfriend.
	Now, you understand this.
	If you really, really, really love her, if you really loved her, your parents' indifference would be horrifying to you.
	Right?
	Did you understand what I mean?
	I'm sorry, I kind of blinked.
	Okay, so if you really, really, really loved your girlfriend and you thought she's just the greatest thing ever, anyone who was indifferent to her would be like nothing to you.
	You would be horrified and it would be like gross.
	Sure.
	Because she's so amazing and she's so cool and she's so amazing and she makes you so happy that anyone's like, eh, I don't care to get to know her.
	I mean, I've told you this, right?
	I mean, I've said this on the show a bunch of times, right?
	I don't care to get to know you then, yeah.
	Well, it's like, you know, I had a close family member who's like, yeah, I don't care to get to know your wife because you're just going to get divorced anyway, and I'm like, buh-bye!
	Right?
	Yeah.
	And it's the same, like, when you become a father, people who aren't interested in your child, it's like, sorry, I don't have any time for you.
	I don't know, because my child is so wonderful, so fascinating, so amazing, like, so cool, and I love being a dad so much that anybody who's indifferent to my daughter is like, wow, I don't, I don't, I don't care, like, I don't care about you anymore, sorry.
	She does seem like a totally awesome person.
	Well, that's true, that's true.
	So, so, one of the ways that you know you didn't truly love your girlfriend is because you didn't particularly care that your parents didn't want to get to know her.
	Because they didn't, right?
	But... Maybe we covered this already a little bit, but I'm just sort of like, what do they have to offer in regards to that?
	Because that's where the problem comes from.
	They should care about her.
	Why?
	Why should they care about her?
	I'm just saying they won't be helpful.
	Why should they care about her?
	Because I do.
	Right.
	Because she matters to you, she matters to them.
	Yeah.
	The degree that your parents care about you is mirrored by the degree they don't care about your girlfriend.
	Yeah.
	And your parents, more than any other outside yourself, right?
	And your girlfriend.
	But your parents, and her parents, are the single biggest reason you ended up in this mess.
	They trained you into compliance with these false dichotomies, these false questions.
	They trained you that you can't ever get what you want, and people will just escalate until you fold.
	That's your mother with your father, and that was your girlfriend with you about these various things, right?
	Just escalate.
	Oh, do it or we're breaking up.
	Okay.
	So your parents trained you in this?
	Yeah.
	And where you are is a significant product of what your parents did and do to this day.
	That's the danger.
	Yeah.
	And it didn't seem did it trouble you that your parents weren't getting to know your girlfriend
	No, because I was like, I don't see That they have that like value, um
	I didn't see that they were valuable in that.
	Think of this.
	Let's say, you know, my daughter's 20 and there's some guy who wants to shack up with her, right?
	Yeah.
	What do you think I'm going to be doing?
	Shack up as in move in, like live together?
	Yeah.
	I just want to, I mean, what do you, uh, so if that's the situation, what are you going to do?
	Sorry, what was the question?
	Let's say there's some guy, my daughter's whatever, doesn't really matter what age, she's an adult, right?
	And he wants to move in with her.
	What am I going to be doing?
	Uh, uh talking to them I I will be talking to him, I will be talking to his family, I will be examining everything I can about them, I will be making sure of his honour, and I would say, well, she would never accept that, she'd want to get married, right?
	But I would be spending so much time, because here's the potential for two families to merge, right?
	Which means I gotta know... And I guess you'd be like, well, why aren't they going to get married?
	Well, of course I would be all of that too, right?
	Yeah.
	But I would be like, oh, so my daughter is worth living with but not marrying?
	Are you kidding me?
	What's the matter with you?
	Of course she's worth that.
	She's worth a thousand of that.
	Like, it's kind of an insult.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	And because we're looking at the potential merger of two families, I'm going to be vetting the family of the young man, and they're going to be vetting me, and I would open myself up to that, of course, right?
	But we're going to blend together as families.
	And these grandparents on my son-in-law's side are going to be watching my grandkids.
	Right?
	And we're going to socialize together, and we're going to do Christmases together.
	Like, I'm going to need to know these people.
	Yeah.
	I mean, can you imagine?
	My daughter's been dating some guy for five years, and I've only talked to him for a couple of hours, and we've spent a couple of hours.
	Like, this is incomprehensible.
	But it's also, to me, just so foreign.
	I can't imagine having had a father like you.
	It's just not what I had to deal with.
	Well, not that I'm your dad, but you had access to me anytime.
	That's true.
	People who are listening, it's actually really easy to get onto.
	Please, please, don't wait till you cross your fingers on STD channels.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Please go in.
	Yeah.
	So listen, I obviously can't, you know, your heart is wounded and I sympathize and I feel for you.
	I really do.
	If it's any consolation, I was in a six or seven year relationship that, you know, I left.
	It wasn't as flame out like this, but I do have some understanding of the investment and how difficult it is.
	But, whenever you feel hurt, I want you to find the part in this show with the roleplay.
	I'm not kidding. Put that on a fucking game.
	Yeah, sure.
	you're not put that on a loop make that your fucking ringtone I know and then in the end and then in the knee it's like
	Yeah.
	mosquitoes in the brain
	bullet dodged and while you have the right to be as masochistic as you want
	in your own dating you were gonna bring brand new human being yeah didn't give
	them this woman yeah And it's better now than later.
	This bus stop is your only chance for a happy family.
	I'm not kidding about that.
	This is your only chance for a happy family is this breakup.
	And while it certainly isn't going to feel that way now, there'll be a time where you'll look back and you'll be like, oh my god, I was this close to the volcano.
	Actually, no, it's worse than a volcano, because a volcano's a quick end.
	Oh my goodness.
	Is there anything else that you wanted to mention?
	Because I know we've been talking for a long time.
	A bit of a tangent, just like on the talk to stuff when you need someone.
	I don't hear a lot of people repeat calls very often and when it's not an emergency and just like, oh, I could use a little bit of help with this.
	It seems weird to ask.
	I'm pretty sure you'd be like, yeah, I can do some of that.
	But yeah, you want me to help?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	I keep begging.
	So the reason there's not a lot of repeat callers is I generally suggest to people go to therapy.
	I, of course, will suggest it as well.
	So generally, they work on with the therapy.
	If they want to repeat call for me and they haven't gone to therapy, I'm like, You know, why would you, you know, if you don't listen to my advice, then why would you want my advice?
	Right.
	So again, I would strongly suggest, you know.
	Lately, like I think therapy, that's good.
	Therapy can be extremely valuable.
	I'm very skeptical about the whatever industry.
	Yeah.
	I think therapy's changed a lot from when I was younger.
	So, I mean, I, I don't quite know.
	I've got a lot of ambivalence about it, actually.
	Yeah, I mean, I think you can maybe just look for an older therapist, somebody who was around before the woke stuff and so on, and you know, just keep going until you find someone you really click with, but that would be my suggestion.
	If it does have to be, you know, there's still a lot of therapists practicing in their 60s and 70s, so that would be my suggestion.
	But listen, if you meet someone and you want to do a vet call, I'm perfectly thrilled to do it.
	That would be very helpful, and not just for me, but for others as well.
	Well, I felt a positive emotion.
	I was like, I'm with gratitude.
	I haven't felt that for a little while.
	Good.
	Good.
	And I know it's tough.
	Try and try and get some sleep.
	I look, it's massive turmoil and so on.
	The mindset has a lot to do with things.
	And if you view it as, Oh my gosh, it's a divorce and it's the worst thing ever.
	And she cheated and blah, blah, blah.
	The worst, the behavior.
	The more relief you'll feel in the long time, and she's behaved appallingly, obviously, right?
	So, the worse the behavior, you know, the really tough breakups are the ones where it's like, eh, you know, it's not terrible, it's okay, I think I could do better, but, you know, this is just such a spectacular flame-out that, you know, being ejected from the wreckage is, like, what's gonna keep you alive.
	I like the, uh, yeah, view, yeah.
	Alright.
	Will you keep me posted about how things are going?
	Yes, sir.
	Absolutely.
	I'm so, so appreciative.
	Big hug, brother.
	I'm so sorry for all of this.
	It'll work out.
	I promise you, I promise you, I promise you, though that's not to say that it's not going to be tough, but keep me posted, all right?
	Sure.
	Again, thanks so much and all the best to you and so much appreciation for everything as well as this call.
	Thanks.
	Take care.

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