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March 7, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:18:55
Greedy Mother, Greedy Wife! Freedomain Call In
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Okay, so I have a really rough relationship with my girlfriend.
We are together for 12 years.
And we have two sons, five and nine.
And it's like...
Lately, we have...
I really don't know where to start, to be honest, but I'm just going to tell you...
Last six months, well, actually last years, we were living almost separate.
Like, I was living in a separate bedroom and we had very little interaction compared to how it should be, I think.
We went for cancelling like three times every time.
We went for like maybe three sessions, five sessions, and we will Stop going because we would say like, okay, this is a little bit better.
Let's continue by ourselves and like a year later it would be that again.
Like around six months ago, I think I figured out what was bothering my wife.
I'm calling her my wife sometimes because people call us husband and wife because we have one house, cars, kids.
You know, all that, how it's supposed to be in marriage, at least outside.
We went for...
My girlfriend, ex-boyfriend invited us to his sailboat and And I was walking from very far, and I can see a different sailboat was alone, and I was walking for like 10 minutes, and I can see the sailboat.
And when I came close to the sailboat, I was talking to my nephew because he came to visit.
And after two or three minutes, and it was like literally 100 degrees, My girlfriend appeared with her ex-boyfriend from within the sailboat.
So it means they were there for like at least 10 minutes.
And it was like 100 degrees.
And they were laughing and I was like, shit, she either like cheated on me or she's about to cheat on me soon because this is how it looked.
So next day I told her I want to fix things.
I want to be more like a guy.
I think I was inspired by one of your Colin shows where there was a guy who was living with his wife and another couple and kids didn't know who the father was.
Everything was kind of implied.
Everything was like that.
So I was talking with her next day and she seemed like she liked the idea but I think she was This is how I feel.
This is how I feel. She was just using my goodwill just to be further and further.
And in the next three months, I'm not proud, but I checked her phone.
I checked her phone and I saw, like, for the last two or three years, there was, like, literally no pictures of us and children, but there was a couple...
She had a couple pictures of her.
and her ex-boyfriend with our children yeah and and literally by mistake i didn't do it but i just continue actually on our home computer what she's using for work there was her google account was logged in so you can see so we can see the uh her location and And I was checking her location.
I'm not gonna lie.
When I come back from work, I would check what she was doing.
And I discovered she's going for nice lunch significantly more often than I thought.
And I caught her three times going to hotel.
Going to hotel 10 minutes from our house.
Each time for like half an hour.
And one time for like hour and a half.
And I ask her.
She said, it's nothing.
It's not your business. I'm just helping somebody.
It's like, how you can fucking help?
What kind of help?
She's like, she promised to not tell anybody...
And I asked her like 10 times, are you cheating on me?
And she didn't say nothing.
And then she said, I'm not cheating on you after like 10 minutes, maybe 15 minutes of like loud and angry argument.
And a month later, she fought and I told her like, your Google account is logged in.
I saw it. I saw it.
And what is it? She said like, I promised I'm just helping with something not nice, but this is not your business.
That should be my business.
And a month later, which was a month ago, that happened again.
That happened again.
And I said, what did you do?
Sorry, you mean that she went to the hotel?
Yes. Okay.
Yes, yes, yes.
Yes, I can see she was in this hotel 10 minutes away from our house, let's say 6 p.m.
or 7 p.m., and she was there at least half an hour.
Yeah. So I asked her angrily, of course, next day, what did you do?
What did you do? And she said, nothing.
And I said, what did you do in hotel?
And she said, I wasn't at hotel.
And she lied also about one of those previous times because I was literally on the computer and I saw she was at hotel and I called her and asked her, where are you?
And she said, I'm at my parents' house.
So I left house because I just didn't want to continue.
I thought like, okay, this is like fucking you're cheating on me.
I spent night at my parents' house.
She called me a couple of times, and the next day we...
I'm sorry.
I left the house, and I... Because something is off in our relationship, regardless if she's cheating on me or not, because she had some kind of weird explanation, I can tell you later.
And I went to her parents' house and I said like, you know what?
Your daughter is cheating on me.
She was cheating on her first husband because she was married before and she actually admitted to cheating on her husband.
And sorry, did you know this before you got together with her?
Well, I knew...
She told me that when we were in, like, first months.
Okay, so you basically married a cheater?
Yes, yes, I did.
Okay, just so we know, just so we're aware.
You married a cheater, okay. Yes, yes, I did.
She was explaining, oh, our relationship was finished, this and that.
No, no, no. I don't care about any of that.
I don't care about it.
Why on earth did you listen to a cheater justifying her cheating?
I mean, she's already a cheater. She's going to be a liar.
So, if you got together with a cheater, and obviously, I do want to go on with the story, but why did you get together with her if she's a cheater?
I thought that was the best I can do then.
She was significant.
I thought that was a significant improvement over my previous relationships.
Significant improvement?
How? I mean, she's a cheater!
Well, yeah, before I had a bunch of cheating girlfriends.
So you had cheating girlfriends and your upgrade is a cheating girlfriend.
Help me understand. Well, she wasn't married when we met.
No, no, but she admitted to cheating on her husband.
Yes, yes.
Before you got, I mean, early on, right?
In the relationship with you.
Yes. So help me understand.
Look, I'm not blaming you. I just want to understand how is it possible that it's an upgrade?
You said, I had girlfriends who cheated with me, so I thought I'd solve it by getting together with a girl who cheated on her husband.
My previous girlfriends, they were even worse, I think.
In what way?
They had even worse family and they were cheating more or they were addicted to drugs.
you Okay. Okay, so you've dated drug addicts and abuse victims, and then you thought you'd upgrade by, I guess, your wife, when you met her, she wasn't a drug addict, but she was just a cheater, but not a drug addict, right?
Yes. Did she have any other addictions or any addictions at all?
Actually, lately she drinks more than a regular person.
I figured this out a couple months ago when I started to pay attention to what she's exactly doing, not what she's talking or telling me.
Yeah, usually she drinks at least twice a week, three times a week.
Whenever she's ironing or doing laundry, she has a drink.
And when did that start?
A couple years ago.
Okay, so sorry, I just wanted to make sure I understood that.
If you could go on with your story.
Okay, so what she said...
This is...
She said...
She's her ex-boyfriend.
And she calls her her friend.
I am not 100% sure they have sex, but they have emotional relationships.
Sorry, this isn't the ex with the sailboat, right?
This is the guy from the sailboat, yes.
Okay, and this is not her ex-husband, this is a guy who was her boyfriend after the husband, before?
I'm calling her, this guy, her ex-boyfriend, but she said they never really dated.
They just had sex a couple times when she didn't have any relationship and he didn't have any relationship.
Yes. Okay, like friends with benefits, I think is the phrase that people use for this?
Yes, yes. Got it.
Yes, so she said she was renting room for him so he can cheat on her wife, on his wife, yes. Oh, so her story is not that she's cheating.
Her story is that she's helping her ex-boyfriend cheat.
Yes, exactly.
And I was like... Oh, gosh!
That's like the worst excuse I've ever heard in my life!
This is the worst...
Well, yeah, regardless of the excuse, like, why you didn't tell me?
And she said, like, because this is my business, not your business.
I was like, yeah, but we have children together and house.
I don't know, we're raising children.
And she's like... This is not your business.
And now she is angry because her family doesn't talk to her.
Doesn't talk to her because I told them, like, okay, if she was not cheating, she was, like, paying for a room for this guy.
They know him.
Because they almost dated...
Her family thinks they almost dated like 15 years ago.
Yes. He's like 20 years older, but they care of himself, but he's still 20 years older.
And is he, I assume the sailboat, is he wealthy?
Above average, yes.
Actually, his wife now, his wife who's on cheating, she is wealthy.
Because she inherited some money.
She's also Polish. She inherited some money from...
Because three people from her family died and they were all like super famous neurosurgeons or whatever.
Something like that. And they all died within two or three years.
Oh, so his wife inherited a bunch of money.
Yes, but he also has company and he...
He's not super wealthy, but he's significantly above average.
Yeah, above average. So how many multiples of his wealth and assets, how many times more wealthy is he than you?
At least two, maybe three.
In terms of total assets, not just income.
Yeah, total assets. Like he's got a sailboat and stuff, I assume he's fairly wealthy.
Well, this sailboat is kind of shitty.
It's not a super nice sailboat, but it's still a sailboat.
Okay, so two to three times more wealthy than you, is that right?
Yes, at least three.
Let's say three. Three times, okay.
So, sorry, she's mad because her family's not talking to her, and what else?
Well, I don't know.
What's the best outcome for our children?
We're not getting to your kids just yet, or the future.
We've still got a lot to talk about with regards to the past.
I'm not sure how direct you're being with me.
I'm not saying that you're not telling me the truth, but I'm not sure how much of the truth you're telling me.
So, this kind of behavior from a woman almost always comes about because she's very attractive and amoral, right?
So, how pretty is she?
Seven, max, maybe six.
To be honest, I'm honest.
Okay, listen, I have no way of independently verifying what you're saying, so I'm obviously going to take you, I'm going to take what you say, right?
That's fine. Yes, but this sailing, let's say, crowd or friends, they are all 10, 15 years older, so she looks prettier there because she's younger.
She's like in the 40s. She's in her 40s and they're in their mid-50s or 60s, right?
Okay. So she would be like a 9 or a 10 to them, right?
Yes. Yes. Okay.
Got it. Got it. All right.
And in terms of your different level of attractiveness, would you say that you're roughly the same or she's more attractive or you're more attractive or how is that?
I think we are roughly the same.
Okay. So, can you tell me a little bit about your childhood or a lot?
Because, of course, you ended up with these women who were addicts and cheaters and so on, so I assume that your childhood was fairly messy, but I could be wrong.
Tell me what happened with you as a kid.
I thought about it.
I thought about it a lot, and my mother, well, I was raised mostly without father from age 14 to 21 because my father, my parents did not split up, but my father, the way he was working and how far he was working, how much he was traveling, like I almost never saw him actually.
I'm figuring this out lately, like why I am the way I am and I think about things the way I think.
Yeah, it's Thanks to listening to you and a couple of books.
I'm figuring this out lately, to be honest.
Okay, so, I'm sorry, you were mostly without a father to the age of 14, and then what happened?
No, from 14...
Oh, 14 onwards.
I'm so sorry. My apologies.
Yes. And I remember when I started meeting my father when I was in my 20s, 21, 20, He looked completely different and even my mother said he's not the guy he was before.
He's more feminine and not decisive.
I'm sorry, when was that transition?
No. Well, my father was traveling a lot and working remotely.
And my parents kind of were living separately.
They were still married, but because of my father's job, he was rarely home.
And I remember, like, I was raised mostly by my mother.
No, sorry, and I got that.
You just said that your father had become more feminine, and I was just trying to figure out when that happened.
When... When...
I... I figured this out when I start meeting him again.
And my mother just said, yes, it's a little bit like that.
It took all of him.
Yes, but when did you start meeting him again?
In my 20s.
Okay, got it. And so at 14, did your father move back in or did your parents split up or what happened?
No, he left for a different country to work and he was back like every six months for two, three weeks.
And then he would come back for like one month.
It was like a really messy life living in...
Yeah, you can stay off places, but okay, I understand.
Okay, so did your parents split up?
No, never. Oh, and did he end up living back together with your mother or does he still do this remote travel stuff?
No, no, he doesn't.
My father just left for the U.S. a couple of times, and he would stay in the U.S. for a year just to work and make money for us.
Yeah, that's remote travel, isn't it?
Yes, yes. So when I said, does he do this remote travel thing, you just said no, and then you said, yes, he does.
I just want to make sure we're on the same page.
Okay, I'm sorry. No, that's fine.
So does he still do this remote travel, or is he retired?
No, they just retired, both my parents, like six months ago.
And why do you think he did all of this travel?
Well, to make more money for her family.
Well, I understand that.
I'm sure there was a benefit.
That's kind of obvious. But why would he be willing to do that?
Like, if somebody said to me, well, you can make more money, but you're going to have to only see your family a month or two a year, what would I say?
No way. No, of course not.
I value time with my family over more money, right?
So, the real question is, why would he do all of this work instead of spending time with you and your mother?
I don't know. I didn't ask him.
Well, I'm sure that you do know.
I mean, you may not know it consciously, but I basically assume we know everything there is to know about our families.
So, there must be something that you know.
I think he didn't value time with family as much as maybe he should.
Okay, I'm going to need you to get a little deeper here.
Okay. Because what you're saying is...
Okay. If I say, why didn't he want to spend much time with his family, and you say, because he didn't value time with his family as much, it's like, well, of course, but why?
You're just describing what I said.
That's not an insight, right?
Like if I said, why do I think so-and-so doesn't exercise?
It's like, well, they just don't put much value on exercising.
It's like, well, no, I get that, but the question is why.
So why did your father want to give up a romantic life, a sex life, a time with his children?
Like, why was he willing to do that for money?
Because he wanted money more than family, yes.
Okay, so I will say this again.
He could have gotten money for the family staying in your home country.
It just wouldn't have been as much, right?
Yes. Okay, so it's not that he wanted money for the family.
He could have got money from the family by staying locally, right?
Yes, yes. Right, so he went to another place.
Maybe he got more money. Of course, you have to have a separate household in America or other places.
There's travel costs.
Yes. And so on. So it's not like you make a huge amount more money, usually.
No, actually no. Okay, so it's not just about, it wasn't that he did this to get money, because there's lots of ways of getting money, and he did it to get a small amount, I assume, of more money at the incredibly high cost of not seeing his family and not raising his children.
So that's the question. It's not to do with money.
So why did he not want to spend time with his family?
It's not money, because he could have made money and spent time with his family.
Listen, if he'd come to you when you were a child, right, and he'd have said to you, well, we can have a little bit more money, or you can have a father, what would you have said?
Father. Right.
If I were to go to my wife and say, well, I can make a little bit more money, but I'm going to be gone 10 or 11 months of the year, she would say, no, that's not a thing.
I don't want more money.
I want a husband and a father for her.
Child, right? So what the heck was going on in your family structure where this was something that happened?
It wasn't a necessity. He wasn't kidnapped, right?
He wasn't drafted. He wasn't kidnapped.
He voluntarily chose.
My girlfriend's family, they had exactly the same structure and father absence.
Well, that's interesting, but that's not an answer to my question.
Yes. So, why did your father...
sell his family for money he betrayed his children right
He sold time with his children for money.
Yes. He abandoned fatherhood, being the head of the household, Or however it works where you are.
He abandoned his wife.
He abandoned his children for money.
That's about as satanic a bargain as I can imagine.
Okay. Don't spend time with your children.
Here's 20 bucks.
Sounds good to me. That's unbelievably shitty behavior.
And your mother was willing to do that.
Or maybe she encouraged that.
In other words, your mother wanted money over the mental health of her children.
Because for you guys, sorry, do you have siblings?
Yes. Okay, and how many?
I have one younger sister.
Okay, so he gave up the mental health of his children for money, and your mother was, I guess, more than happy to have that happen.
Yes, yes, she was.
So what an unbelievable, shocking, appalling, terrible situation this is, right?
See, I tell you, there's no amount of money that would have me abandon my family for 10 or 11 months every year.
Like, there's no amount of money.
I'd rather live under a bridge in a tent with my family than have a zillion dollars and be gone all the time.
Your father traded fatherhood for fucking money.
Like, help me understand this.
This is so bizarre to me.
Why would you have children?
If you don't want to be a father, it's pretty fucking simple.
Don't have children. So why would he have children and abandon them for money?
Again, there's an answer.
I don't know what it is. I have some ideas, but there's no point in me doing ideas because you have direct experience, right?
You've been in your family for 40 years or whatever, right?
40 or 45 years?
So you know this shit and I don't.
So what's the answer? He really wanted money.
Okay, then that's fine.
Then if you really want money, you know what's a great way to have money?
Don't have children. Right?
Because if you have children, as you know, you spend your money on your kids.
So if you really want money, that's pretty fucking simple.
Don't have children. So that's not the answer.
What else have you got? And understand, I'm not mad at you, obviously.
I'm just mad at the situation because it's so terrible.
When I think about it, I think my mother wanted more than he...
But I just...
Because I'm kind of overwhelmed.
I never thought about it this way.
I mean, I thought about it this way, but maybe 5% not as much as you said it.
Alright, are you going to give me an answer or are we going to get more?
No, I'm just having the biggest brain fart in my life.
That's what I do.
I brain fart. Okay, so you think your mom wanted the money more than a husband?
Yes, I think.
I mean, I think yes.
Yes, especially for that time.
Tell me more about that.
I think my mother wanted money and I remember when I was very small, I remember she had
very high expectations.
Thanks for watching!
I think she wanted just the facade, nice family and Nice house, nice car.
And my father just went with it.
Or agreed, I don't know, maybe he wanted to.
And this is...
This is how they sold us with my sister.
A couple bucks. Alright, so why did your mother want nice stuff instead of a husband and a father for the children that obviously she voluntarily chose to have?
Because she didn't love us.
It was just a status symbol.
Just what everybody does, children, because most people have children there.
So you should have children if you have a husband, and your husband should be successful.
Like, this is exactly what my girlfriend is doing right now.
Well, of course, that's what I'm kind of getting at.
We're not talking about your mother.
Fundamentally, we're talking about your girlfriend.
And now it's funny how you've downgraded her from wife to girlfriend.
I'm going to call her my wife.
No, now she's my girlfriend.
Anyway, sorry, go on. Yes, I'm sorry.
Stefan, I don't know.
She didn't love us.
She didn't want us. Well, I mean that's more of a negative.
I'm asking what the positive motivation was.
Why did she want money instead of a father for her children and a husband for her life or her bed or whatever we want to say?
Because it was easier for her.
No, it's not easier.
I mean, listen, I mean, if you've ever been around kids, I'm sure you have, right?
So if you're raising kids without a partner, that's pretty hard in a lot of ways, right?
It's harder in some ways.
So I don't know that it's easier.
Maybe it is, but I don't know that for sure.
This is what my girlfriend is saying, that we don't have money all the time.
It just connects with my head all the time.
Whenever you ask about my mother, I'm just seeing a little bit of my girlfriend.
Okay, so your girlfriend wants money, right?
Yes, she wants money.
She wants me to make more money all the time.
Okay, and why does she want you to make more money?
So we can buy a bigger house, a bigger car, a newer car.
So kids can go to another, in my humble opinion, useless activity.
My kids go to every single fucking activity you can imagine, and they are super busy.
And she is actually super busy.
She works like part-time right now.
All right.
So it's a lot of what you said there.
I'm just trying to make sure I follow what it is that you're...
You're talking about...
Okay, so let's go back to your mother.
We'll get to your girlfriend. I get that you're making these connections.
I promise you we'll get there because there's not much we can do about your mom, but, you know, you have decisions to make in the press.
So why does your...
Why did your mother want money rather than a husband?
Because she...
I'm sorry Stefan, but the only answer I have is like because she just wanted money more
than husband.
And I hope you enjoyed it.
And why? I don't know. Yes, you do.
Yeah, you do. I mean, you may not know it consciously, but yeah, you do.
You do. So, what benefits did your mother get out of more money?
What did she get? Okay, so she got status, and how did that manifest itself?
Did she cruise around in an expensive car and throw sandwiches at the peasants, or what happened?
Well, actually, my parents had a really nice house and relatively not a bad car.
For some time, my father had a company, so they were above average also.
So your father had a company, you mean?
Like he ran a business? Yes, he ran a business for a couple years when I was like up to 14.
Yes, and then he gave up.
Okay, so they had a nice house.
A nice car.
And who was your mother impressing with that?
I assume that we don't just have status on a desert island.
We have status because we want to show off to...
I thought about it.
Actually, I thought about it.
And she was impressing...
Her friends from high school, because she was meeting them from time to time, which was weird for me because I hated some of them.
And she was impressing their siblings.
Her siblings, yes, because she had four siblings.
So she was impressing friends and siblings, is that right?
Yes, yes. Okay.
I think I understand that.
And did her siblings do similar things or did her friends just try to impress each other with big houses and nice cars?
Actually, all of her siblings were financially successful, maybe except her youngest sister.
Which is just a teacher, but...
Sorry, financially successful, like, they worked hard, or they went overseas, or what do you mean?
No, they all run businesses right now.
Okay. So, does she have male or female siblings?
I mean, obviously, I assume both, but what's the proportion?
She had one brother and three sisters.
Okay, so I'm going to assume that she was mostly competing with her sisters in the money that the husband brought in, is that right?
Yes, yes. Yeah, okay.
And did your mother work, you said, I know your girlfriend works part-time at the moment, did your mother work when she was...
Stefan, can I just mention one thing?
Actually, her brother was super successful, and he was like literally our neighbor in all countries.
Like, literally, our neighbor.
And, like, I remember... Wait, wait, wait.
Hang on, hang on. Hang on.
Are you saying that her brother was successful while living in your home country?
Yeah. Super successful.
Okay. So, sorry. I'm a little lost here.
I'm sure you can make it clear to me.
I'm a little lost. No, you're not lost, and I'm not lost, and I'm making connection right now.
Okay. Tell me, if you get there, I don't need to say it.
So, what do you got? No, my father failed business and he had to leave.
Oh, so your father's business in your country, in your home country, failed and that's why he left?
In my mother's eyes.
In my mother's eyes.
Because it was still bringing some money, but it was like a nice job.
Not... Business where you drive.
Yeah, because your uncle, he was able to make money without leaving to America, right?
Actually, he left for US for maybe eight or nine months, just after a communist fail, and he came back and started business.
This is your uncle? Yes.
Okay, but he was able to make money while staying in your home country after that period, is that right?
Yes, yes. Yes, and now I can see a bunch of excuses, like they were excusing why he was making money, like, oh, because he knew this guy, because he went to an army, and he knew politicians, because he was involved in the Communist Party, so he had connections, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I remember him very hard-working and dedicated also.
Well, and maybe he did have these connections.
I mean, there's a fair amount of corruption in business, but he was able to do something with it, right?
And of course, if your uncle had a good relationship with your father, then your uncle would have used his contacts to help your father, right?
Actually, now I don't understand why.
Why they... Because at the very beginning, when my uncle was starting his business and my father was kind of starting his business, my father was late, like one year.
I make the connection right now.
I get it. I get it.
A couple of times, my uncle helped my father.
But once my father's business was going very slowly forward, but my uncle's business exploded, like literally freaking exploded.
The friendship kind of ended.
There was just friendship between my mother and my uncle's wife.
That's it. Okay, so when's that relative to your father going to America?
My father went to America maybe five years later.
Okay, got it.
Okay, so what does that tell you, what you've realized?
My mother sent my father to the U.S. Because between my parents, my mother is leading the relationship and household.
That's it. You cannot tell it differently.
I think my mother sent my father to America so he will bring her some money, some status, so she don't have to excuse herself and my father why they are not as successful as my uncle was.
He's dead, by the way. Right, okay.
So, is it true to say that your mother was in significant competition with her sisters over whose husband made more money, and when one of your aunts' husband made more money, your mother nagged or bullied or threatened her husband to go and get money?
Yes, yes, she did.
Did you hear that, or did you see that, or how did that play out in your family?
I remember one Christmas when I didn't, me and my sister, we did not get any Christmas presents.
Like zero.
Zero. Not even a stupid pencil.
And I remember like watching stupid documentary in TV when It was about super poor people going through Christmas and they were showing like people were borrowing money just to get children just some candy for Christmas and I remember why we didn't get any fucking candy and I remember I think I remember my mother didn't work then and I was like if she didn't work and we were so poor And my father's business is going so badly.
Maybe she can do something or we can...
I think she nacked him.
I think. But you didn't observe this directly, is that right?
No. No, because my parents...
They...
They didn't talk about money with us, but we can see clearly, like, there was time when we had more money or less money.
We never starved or anything, or, like, we didn't have any bills, any media cut off, but I know that was a very hard time.
Right. Okay. Okay.
All right. So, are your parents Christians?
And do they have any problems with the fact that they gave up, or your father gave up parenting for money?
I mean, isn't that kind of what Satan offers Jesus?
Nobody sees it this way.
Nobody. I don't care what people claim that they see.
I don't care what people claim that they see.
I care what actually is. Well, maybe lately.
Maybe lately, because I was talking with them a couple of times about What's going on with me and my girlfriend?
And they are like, you should leave her.
And I was like, no, I fucking choose her.
I didn't know any better.
I made a mistake, but we have children.
I choose her and I knew that.
I knew those things.
I should understand those things.
Before, but I didn't.
And when I was telling them those things this way, they were mentioning a couple times, like, we shouldn't split up, or maybe we should...
Because my sister, I know I'm taking you on adventure, my sister also, maybe she had better marriage, but...
She gave up on college like after two years without telling anybody like weirdly.
I don't know. I think because I gave up on college also the same way she did after like two years.
And you were asking me about do they have any doubts?
Maybe very little lately but very little and Nobody really talks about it this way.
Like, it was bad.
More likely, it was noble to go somewhere else and make more money.
Well, but it wasn't money that was needed.
Right, so let's say that your father… Nobody says… Nobody says money were not needed.
Monies are always needed.
Oh no, come on. Let's not waste time with that.
Of course you need something. But the money wasn't needed because it wasn't like your father couldn't get any work in your home country and had to sadly go overseas to send you back enough money to live in a tiny apartment and take the bus.
Your father could have got a job in your home country, and let's say that you would only have had half the income, right?
Yes. But that would have been more than enough for you to live comfortably, right?
Maybe you wouldn't have a big house.
Maybe you have a small house. Maybe you don't have an expensive car.
Maybe you have a cheaper car. Maybe you don't take as many vacations, maybe your mother doesn't buy as expensive a set of dresses, but it wasn't needed, like it was not necessary for your father to go overseas for most of your childhood off and on, right? Yes.
Okay, so he didn't need to do it.
Do we agree on that?
Yes, we do. Okay, so then the question is, why did he do it?
And the answer that your mother wanted more money is not really an answer.
Okay. Do you know why?
Because we had money.
No. Well, just because your wife wants something doesn't mean you do it.
Yes, now I understand.
Just because your husband wants something doesn't mean you do it.
Your wife says, I want you to travel overseas so that I can get a really big house.
As a husband, what can you say?
We don't need to get loose.
Well, um, no. You just say no.
Like, you don't have to give a reason.
Just like, no, I'm not going to leave my kids and I'm not going to leave my family so that we get a bigger house.
I'd rather have a smaller house with a father than a bigger house with no father.
My children need a father growing up.
You need a husband. And obviously, you wouldn't want to sell me for a bigger house, right?
Trade me in. Because basically, she traded in your father and her husband for a bigger house, right?
Yes, yes. Okay, so when a woman says, in this case, it's like if the man says, I want to have an open marriage, and the woman says, well, we had an open marriage because my husband said so, it's like, that's not an answer.
If your mother says, I want more money, the father can say, well, that's nice.
I'd like to be a foot taller, and I would like to have all my hair back.
As long as we're talking about wishings, yeah, let's talk about it.
I'd love to have a horse made of gold that could fly.
That would be fantastic. Wouldn't that be cool?
I'd love to be able to fly.
It would be great to breathe underwater.
Tell me more about the things that you would love.
But the idea that your wife says, well, I want more money, and you're like, okay.
That's ridiculous, right?
This is exactly what's happening right now.
Of course, we're talking about you and your wife, but the woman says she wants something.
That's nice. It's nice information.
It's great to hear. I want to remodel the kitchen.
Yeah, fantastic. I'd love to build a home gym, too.
Wouldn't that be nice? I'd love to build a squash court in the basement.
We'd have to dig a little, but wouldn't it be cool to have a squash court in the basement?
Tell me what else you like, you know?
That's great. I mean, there's nothing wrong with hopes and dreams and I'd like and I want.
What I don't, what I'm trying to sort of figure out here is how the fuck your father goes to the other side of the world because your mother wants more money.
That's what I'm trying to figure out.
Why wouldn't he say, it's great, if you want more money, I guess you could get a job or play the lottery or whatever it is, but we decided to have children, so obviously I have to be here for the children, so obviously I'm not going to go to America to make money like that.
We chose to have children, and my responsibility is to the kids.
I can't quite figure out why your mother's wish becomes your father's enslavement.
That's what I can't figure it out.
I don't know either.
I don't know either. I don't know, but...
Are you still trying this one? Are you still trying the I don't know card?
You know, you keep playing that card.
I keep projecting it, and it turns out you know.
So we can keep playing this game if you want to, but it's kind of pointless.
Okay, Stefan, I listened to a couple of your shows, and whoever's going to listen to this, it's going to laugh.
I keep saying that, but can you give me a hint?
What's going on? I don't fucking know.
Seriously. I don't know.
Seriously. I don't want to waste your time.
I don't know. Okay.
I mean, I can tell you the mechanics of how it happens if you want.
So... The mechanics of how it happens is actually quite simple.
It's very sad, but it's quite simple.
So the mechanics of how it happens goes like this.
Your mother says, we don't have enough money.
Your father says, I mean, you know, we've got a reasonable house.
We've got an old car. I want children to serve a bigger house.
I want a bigger house. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
And he's like, well, no, I mean, I don't want to work that much more.
I certainly don't want to leave. And she's like, well, if you went to America, you could make a lot of money.
And it's like, well... Yeah, but we chose to have children.
So anyway, it starts off like this.
And then, if the woman is a complete monster, right, in my view, if the woman is a complete monster, what she does is she makes living with her so unbearable that he prefers to go to America.
Okay. Okay, this is exactly what's happening in my relationship, Steve.
Oh yeah, no, let's stay with your parents, right?
Because that's the genesis of this, right?
So your mother is just continually discontented.
She withholds affection.
She continues to nag at him.
She continues to say how well everyone else is doing.
She continues to humiliate him by talking about how much money everyone else's husband makes, what a loser he is.
And eventually he's like, well, I can't stand living at home.
I don't have a sex life.
I don't have any affection with my wife.
And I'm constantly humiliated.
I would rather be in America, not because I want to make more money, but just because I can't stand living with my wife because she's continually nagging me for more money.
So fuck it, I'm out. I'm tapping out.
I'll go and get you the money because it's unbearable to live with you if I don't.
Okay, so this is what my mother did.
I'm pretty sure she can do it.
You're expecting something else from me.
Well, I mean, I'm not sure.
I mean, again, I assume your parents kept their relationship pretty private, so we can't get anything for sure in this, right?
Which is fine. I just wanted to know.
It was private, but I think it happened like that.
She was just...
Well, is your mother an egg?
Actually, not as big as I think, but I'm probably conditioned to not see it.
Okay. Because my girlfriend is a giant nag, like big as I heard so.
Well, then I would assume that you were conditioned to that by your mother.
Now, either she nagged you directly or she nagged your sister or she nagged your father or there's something, right?
Something that conditioned you to this, right?
Yes. Right.
So then what happens is your father goes to America for two reasons.
One, to get away from the fucking nagging, and two, because he feels absolutely unloved.
Now, do you know why he feels unloved?
Because she wants money, not him.
That's right. Right.
She's like, you're a piece of livestock for me.
You're a workhorse.
You go get...
Just give me the money.
She's like the mafia. Like, just give me the fucking money.
Or I'll make your life hell.
It's really a kind of blackmail.
It's more extortion, really. Like, I'll make your life hell.
Just give me the fucking money.
Like, she's like a collector for the mafia, right?
I'll break fingers until I get the money.
Sorry, go ahead. Every single...
Friend of my girlfriend is like that.
Fuck. What do you mean?
Their husband worked himself fucking day and night and they have nice money and shitty relationships.
Well, like your uncle who died, right?
He worked himself perhaps to death.
And then she gets insurance, right?
No, she inherited business and sold it.
Ah, so she sold the business, right?
Ah, yes. Female entrepreneurs means marrying a male entrepreneur and working him to death often.
So, anyway. Yes.
Okay, so the women don't view the husbands as love objects.
They don't view the husbands as someone to love.
They view the husbands as the provider of resources.
Yes, I understand that.
But I didn't know it was that deep.
What do you mean, that deep?
I just didn't understand it worked like that to this extent with my parents.
I never look at it this way.
Well, the clear evidence is that your father was gone 10 or 11 months a year, right?
Yes. Okay.
So, clearly, since the money wasn't absolutely necessary, it wasn't like there was no way he could work in your home country.
I could understand that if this was some desperate situation.
I don't know, like the collapse of the Soviet Union, some desperate situation where the only way for the family to survive is.
No, it wasn't desperate. No, I get that.
I'm just saying that this wasn't that situation.
So, the husband is not loved.
The husband is someone that...
Like, you ever have a piece of electronics and it doesn't work and you just give it a thump?
Hopefully to settle the chips or something, like something, just give it a thump, right?
Yes. Yeah, like I was playing paintball not too long ago, and if the paintball isn't shooting, you've got to shake it to settle the balls and then you get back to shooting the paintball, right?
So your husband is just, like, he's a machine that produces money, and if it doesn't produce money, you just thump it until it does.
Like, you just apply negative pressure to it until it does, right?
Stefan? Yeah. I'm going to have to pick up my children in 25 minutes.
I just want to let you know.
We'll do the last bit of the sprint.
Okay, so what's the solution to this?
What could your father have done to deal with this?
I don't know, but it's probably what I'm trying to do with my girlfriend.
Well, with regards to you, I don't know, but that's why I asked if your parents were religious.
So what I would say, if I were a Christian and I were in this sort of situation, I would say, well, honey, I'm not going to go and get more money.
Do you know why? Because I don't want you going to hell.
Because you're going to go to hell.
Choosing money over what's best for your children.
Choosing to work me in a foreign country.
Choosing money over me.
That's not what the vows were.
I love, honor, and obey you.
Not I love, honor, and obey money.
So I'm not going to have you break your vows.
This is funny because my girlfriend is dodging so badly in marriage with me.
I'm sorry, just continue.
This is just gold, what you're saying.
Yeah, so you say, no, we have marriage vows, that we love each other.
That's the deal. That's the basis of the marriage.
So, I'm not going to let you harm yourself Be a slave to Satan and go to hell for eternity by choosing money over virtue.
You know, because that's what Satan offered Jesus in the desert.
He said, follow me, obey me, and I'll give you the whole world, all the material things in the world, right?
So, you know, you're tempted by Satan.
And look, I sympathize with that.
We're all tempted by Satan.
Every now and then I'll look at another woman in lust, and I'm like, well, that's a sin, and I won't do anything about it, and I'll try to work to control the thoughts.
And so on, right? So, listen, honey, I love you, and I care for you, and I want to keep you being virtuous.
And look, I understand it.
I sympathize. You've fallen into temptation.
You've fallen into pursuing material status over actual virtue.
You're choosing stuff over love, and you're choosing what is selfishly good for you over what is objectively best for your children.
And that's, you know, again, sympathies, and I understand that, and, you know, we all get tempted, and we all got to shake it off and say, oh, you know, that's a bad idea, right?
So, no, like, of course not.
Like, of course not.
And this is the basis of our vows, your vow to God, your vow to save your soul, your vow to me as your husband.
I can't do this.
I can't enable your sin, because I love you, and I'm not going to Let you go to hell.
And then I go to hell by abandoning my children, who we chose to have.
So, no, of course I'm not going to the States.
States we gotta find some other solution.
Now, then she might escalate obviously, right?
Of course, yeah.
She might escalate.
And then you say, well, you can say anything, right?
What I would say, not that I can imagine being, but I would say, okay, well, if you're going to escalate, if you're going to continue to nag me because I'm not giving you money, then you're an evil woman.
Like you're trying to train me like a slave, like a dog, like a farm animal to give you what you want.
I can't have that in front of my children.
So I'm afraid that we're going to have to get a divorce if you continue this.
And not only are we going to get a divorce, we're going to get a divorce and I'm not going to hide anything from the children.
Like I'm going to tell the children why we got a divorce because your mother wanted me to leave your lives in order to send her money.
To not be a father.
And listen, I mean, my responsibility is not primarily to my wife.
It's to my children, right?
I mean, this is true, right?
Because the children are not there by choice.
Your wife is there by choice, right?
So you'd say, look, I'm going to have to divorce you if you continue to make my life hell because I'm not giving you money.
Like, that's a shake. This is a mafia tactic, right?
I'm going to threaten to burn down your store if you don't.
Give me money. So, I will end up having to divorce you, and I'm going to have to tell the children exactly why we're getting divorced, you know, because mommy wanted money and wanted me to leave you.
Like, mommy wanted to be paid for me not being in your lives, and as kids, I love you too much to let that happen.
I can't break my relationship with you.
I can't not be a father because I chose to be a father, and if your mother wants me to go and make money rather than be a father, I would choose you to I'll just be perfectly honest with why that's all happening.
And if you want to go down that road, we can go down that road.
I'd rather you wouldn't. I'd rather you sort of wake up and...
But, you know, my responsibility is to my children, and I'm not going to lie to them about why we're getting divorced.
We're getting divorced because you keep nagging me for more money and want me to leave my children, which I'm not going to do.
So we can go down that road if you want, but it's going to be pretty rough for you, to put it mildly.
And I'm also going to tell...
You know, everyone. Everyone who says, oh, why are you getting divorced?
I say, oh, well, because she keeps nagging me for more money, and I don't want to abandon my children.
So I can't do that because that's one of the worst sins known to man, and I won't imperil my soul and my virtue and my future in that way.
So, sorry, go ahead. That's sort of roughly what I would say.
I have nothing to say.
I never got this connection.
It resonates with my parents and resonates with my current relationship.
Like, better than I... Well, your father was a slave to female vanity and female greed.
And he never stood up for himself.
And that's, it's bad enough that he never stood up for himself, but he didn't stand
up for his children, which is even worse.
I mean, infinitely worse, right?
It's one thing to not stand up for yourself, it's another thing to not stand up for your
children.
Even if your father was like, oh fine, I'll just go to America and make money and send
it back.
If he was just married, okay, that's a shitty choice and it's a terrible marriage, but at
least it's just two individuals.
But once you have kids, you have to be there for your kids.
when you have kids you have to be there for your kids.
You can't just abandon your kids to appease your wife.
Like, that's ridiculous. That's not a marriage.
I don't know what that is. So, you're in a situation where you are trying to, well, for 12 years, I assume, you've been appeasing your girlfriend, and if she gets upset, you're like, okay, what do I need to do to make things better, right?
Well, not anymore, because for the last two, three years, She's just escalating, escalating, escalating, and to the point like she even doesn't want to be in proximity of me because she admitted it.
I don't want to be that bad for you.
She says she's like poison for you or toxic for you and she wants to spare you that?
Yes, this is exactly what she's saying.
Sorry, how old are your kids?
Five and nine. Right.
Well, the nine-year-old might be old enough.
I mean, you don't want to bring kids into your parents' troubles, of course, right?
But if the relationship is really, really falling apart, then you might have to sit down with the kids and say, well, you know, your mother needs to tell you what she told me, that she considers herself very toxic and very dangerous.
She plays with children and she tries to pull them on her side and they They're asking me really questions like, who's really bad?
You are bad or mommy's bad?
Whose fault it is?
Because it cannot be everybody's fault.
And what is it that the children, I assume this is the older child, maybe it's both, but what is it that the children are observing that they're sitting you down to try and sort out?
What are they trying to process or understand?
What behaviors are they seeing? They try to appease mother.
Because she's getting angry and they are finding...
We are all walking on eggshells a lot.
Oh, because of your wife's temper?
Exactly. And has she had a health check-up?
Is she on SSRIs or is she on antidepressants or is she on any sort of brain-altering medication?
Has she had a full health check-up?
No, but I have to add something.
She was working in...
something like homeless shelter when they were dealing with a lot of alcoholics and she met a lot of psychologists there couple like they became friends with her and she says she called them from time to time and they talk about her problems quote-unquote not our relationship but her problems and some of the temper in last couple years it's mellowed down but like like very little So something happened.
That's it. Does she admit that she has a problem with her temper and she shouldn't be displaying it?
I mean, at all, but certainly not in front of the children.
Absolutely. And she says, this is our fault.
Or my fault.
Because wherever...
So she doesn't admit that she has a problem with temper, she just blames you, right?
Absolutely. Okay, so she doesn't admit that she has a problem with temper, she says, well, you keep provoking me, so inevitably I'm going to blow up.
Yes, I'm provoking her, kids are provoking her, everybody's provoking her, except this last hiccup where everybody in the family knows she was either cheating on me or organizing cheating for her friends.
Ex-boyfriend. Right.
Okay. And since she's found that out, I assume, has her temper escalated and now you're the cause of her problems with her family?
Yes. Okay.
So she doesn't take any self-ownership, right?
She just blames other people.
No, she doesn't. No, she doesn't. I didn't want to say that.
I just wanted to get to this.
Yeah, yeah. Okay. So she can't be fixed.
I mean, if somebody's not willing to take any responsibility for their behavior, I don't see how they can possibly change.
Is that fair to say? Yes, I wanted to hear from you, to be honest.
No, listen, I can't change the weather, so you can't blame me for the weather, right?
And if I can't change myself, you can't blame me for anything that happens, right?
That's the equation, right?
So, if she's not willing to take any responsibility, and if the results of years of therapy, or whatever these conversations with these psychologists, has been that she still blames you for telling the truth about her behavior to her parents, she doesn't say, well, I guess I shouldn't have done that.
She says, the only problem with me doing that is my parents found out and that you told them, right?
Is that her perspective? Yes, that's her perspective, and that blows my mind.
And she's in her 40s, right?
43. She's one year older.
She's 44. Okay.
So she's been an adult for almost 30 years.
Yes. And she's never grown up.
Because adults...
What is adult? We take responsibility for our own choices.
That's being an adult, right?
Yes. I know that.
I just didn't want to present her like that just to cover for me.
I mean, again, I don't know what you should do, obviously, but if you have someone who won't take self-ownership, then they can't make decisions based on morality.
Stefan, lately, lately, into my head are popping up those thoughts.
Like, I even keep meeting the girls I rejected some time ago.
Like, into my head, popping up those thoughts.
I should Start a new family, and my kids are going to be with me in one, two, three, four years, and they're going to be arriving at adulthood better than if I stay.
Wait, so, sorry, your solution to this is to do what your father did and abandoned your family?
No, it's not.
I'm saying... I don't know what to do.
Okay, so hang on. I don't know what you should do either, but in my opinion, people who don't have any self-ownership will only respond to pressure.
They respond to bribery or pressure.
So that's all.
So if, let's say, she really wants to stay married to you, If you say, listen, the condition of us being married is you have to deal with your temper, like you have to take ownership for your temper.
Now, she won't want to do that, but maybe she'll go through the first time taking self-ownership and realize that it is actually a better way to live, and maybe that'll be a big change.
It could happen, I guess. But...
You have no leverage as far as I understand it at the moment, right?
I mean, because she's not responding to morals, she's not responding to ideals, she's not responding to the fact that her children are saying what's wrong with the marriage, she's just blaming you, right?
So she's not responding to anything positive, which means maybe she'll respond to something that's more negative or more pressured and say, look, the marriage can't continue like this, things are going to have to change, and if we do get a divorce, let me finish, because I know you've got to go, right? You came here for my advice, is that fair?
Okay, so then you say, look, and if we do get divorced, which I really don't want to do, I would much rather work things out for the sake of the kids, but I can't expose my children to this level of dysfunction.
Like, I can't. Because it's not about you and it's not about me.
It's about what's best for the kids.
And what's happening right now is not what's best for the kids.
If we can't fix it, we need to not harm the children in this kind of way.
And maybe that will be a wake-up call.
Maybe that will... Sort something out.
And I don't know whether this is the right or wrong thing to do.
I'm just giving you some possibilities.
The other thing to do is to say, look, I made my bed.
I've got to lie in it. I chose a woman with a bad childhood.
I chose a woman who was a cheater.
I chose a woman who's clearly dysfunctional.
I chose to stay with her.
I chose to, I guess you had children three years into the relationship and then later on, first child nine, second child five.
So you had a child three years into the relationship and then you had a child seven years or something like that.
And so you chose to have this relationship and you chose to have children and she's not going to change.
So rather than get frustrated, just say, well, I have to work with who she is and not have the expectation of change.
But I think you have to say the only variable that you can alter in this situation is yourself.
Whether you escalate or whether you accept, I don't know.
But I think hoping that she's going to change is not.
The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.
Like, by far, the best predictor is how she's going to be tomorrow is how she was yesterday.
And this is particularly true for people who don't take responsibility for their own choices and actions.
People who blame don't change.
They don't. They don't change because they don't need to change because nothing's ever their fault.
Nothing's ever their responsibility. So she's not going to change.
You either need to find a way to shock her into some kind of possible change or accept...
And by shock, I just mean change the variables in what you're doing.
I don't mean anything aggressive, of course, but change the variables in what you're doing.
Or accept a situation as...
Well, you walked into this eyes open, and, you know, with all sympathy to your childhood, you know, you weren't a kid when you got involved in this, right?
If you're In your early 40s, and so you were in your 30s when this relationship started, so you weren't a kid, and she was pretty honest about the fact that she's a cheater, and so you chose this, and now for the sake of your kids, you're going to just have to accept the way things are until your kids get older, but yeah, I certainly wouldn't put any hope of change going forward.
I mean, coming from her, I don't mean there's nothing you can change in your life, but the idea that she's going to wake up tomorrow and start taking responsibility seems highly unlikely.
Sorry, go ahead. I put some pressure.
I disconnected our finances some time ago.
Actually, it didn't change a lot, to be honest.
And also, my strong suggestion would be, no matter what you do, talk to a lawyer.
Actually, I did. Okay, good, good.
So you've got some information about that.
I mean, I think in general, whenever touching on legal matters, talking to a lawyer is very important, so you need to know what your options are and your possibilities.
And listen, I sympathize with the situation.
I sympathize most with the kids, of course, because you guys were both adults when you got into this.
I sympathize most with the kids, but I certainly do sympathize for how your father kind of crippled your sense of masculinity in this, right?
To just be pushed around by a woman is really terrible.
I mean, to be pushed around by a man is equally terrible, but at least society recognizes that as bad.
Being pushed around by a woman and Sacrificing your children on the altar of a woman's stupid material vanity is an absolute betrayal of your duties as a husband and a father.
And this kind of appeasing women's demonic egos by throwing money at them is really, really terrible.
Obviously, men do terrible things as well, but we happen to be talking about women in this case.
And the terrible thing that your father did was to appease women.
Your mother and sacrifice his children to this Medusa of materialism.
It's really, really terrible, so I'm really sorry for everyone involved here.
Thank you, Stefan. You've got to go, right?
You've got to get your kids. If we have a bit more time, that's fine.
I just want to check.
I have like seven, eight more minutes, to be honest, and then I have to go.
All right. I mean, I'm sorry to have rushed this stuff, but, you know, you've got to get your kids.
Is there anything that you wanted to mention as we close things down?
Actually, no. You've blown my mind more than I thought you will, even after listening to, like, freaking hundred call-in shows, to be honest.
Well, that's why I keep doing them, because I'm always hoping to continue to add value.
And, you know, your kids...
Both your son and your daughter, or whatever their mix is, your kids are really going to need to see you not get pushed around.
That's really important, because otherwise it's just going to repeat, right?
All this cycle is just going to repeat, and that's a real shame.
Yes. This I understood some time ago.
That's why I think our situation is just worsening and worsening.
Because she just puts more pressure.
Now I understand why more.
Right. And appeasement feeds bullying, right?
And whatever you feed is stronger, right?
But I also understand, I mean, really what I assume that you haven't seen around you, you haven't seen strong equality and negotiation in relationships.
Actually, I didn't. I fucking didn't.
And now I get it.
Like, I never saw it.
I never fucking saw it.
Yeah. And that's a great shame, but that's the thing, right?
I didn't see a really deep self-knowledge philosophy guy around, so you have to become it.
And so if you can't see this kind of stuff, you have to become it.
You have to provide what you were denied, and really that's the only way that things progress.
So I really, really admire you for exploring these issues and You know, your willingness to step into the fire and break the cycle of dysfunction.
It's amazing and wonderful and heroic, and you should be enormously proud of that, in my opinion.
To be honest, I did it.
So, whatever I do, my children don't have to call you.
Well, except to say thanks, which would be fun, too.
Well, we'll see. Maybe they...
We'll see how it goes.
All right. Well, listen, go get your kids.
If there's anything else I can do, I know we had a bit of a rushed chat here, which is fine.
But if there's anything that strikes you, just shoot me another note and I'm sure we can reschedule something else.
I promise I will get back to you just to give you an update because you said one person in 50 gives you any feedback.
I certainly do appreciate the feedback and I really, really appreciate the conversation.
Thanks so much, brother, and take care.
Thank you, Stefania. One more time.
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