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April 8, 2023 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:55:14
"My Boyfriend Called My Dad a M*F*!" Freedomain Call In
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You want to start by reading the email?
Yeah, absolutely. So, hi Steph.
I really appreciate the work you've put into creating a better, brighter world and for helping change my life.
I found myself in the middle of a falling out between my parents and my current boyfriend.
After living together for over a year, a huge blow-up started by my father resulted in my parents condemning my relationship and starting drama within our family workplace.
I love my partner and want to honor him, but also want to find resolve with my parents.
Are both possible?
Well, I don't know, but I guess that's the purpose of the conversation.
Obviously, you know, I know that that's a summary sort of question or email.
I assume there's deep backstory here we can get into.
Yes, absolutely.
Go. Nico?
Yes, you go. I can't do the backstory.
I can only do the analysis, so go for it.
Tell me all about it. Well, so for context, my parents own a restaurant in the small town that I live in, and I've pretty much worked there for the last 10 years with them.
My parents come from both from Greek families, so that kind of informs different perspectives on like cultural influence and Wait, a Greek family that runs a restaurant?
I've never, ever heard of such a thing.
I'm just kidding. That's pretty common, obviously.
So, go ahead. Absolutely.
Yeah. Pretty much everybody in my family has worked in the industry at some point, too.
It's not very uncommon.
So, yeah.
So, that kind of informs, I guess, their perspectives on certain things.
It's like a Greek perspective of family and...
Family is very enmeshed, almost to the point of toxicity at some points.
And there's lots of expectations on what your children should be and what they're supposed to be like.
Anyway, so there's that.
And then I met my partner because he was hired by my parents to start working at the restaurant.
My parents did not want him to date anyone, and it ended up that we got together.
Wait, your parents hired him but didn't want him to date anyone?
Does that mean sort of at the restaurant?
Yes, yeah, at the restaurant.
Is he not a nice Greek boy?
Is that the issue, or was there something else?
He's not Greek, no, but I think my parents had certain expectations of who I should be with.
And I will say that also at the time I was in a relationship when I met him.
Not that that really informed, I guess, what they said to him.
It was just like he...
There had already been some issues with, like, people dating or other stuff like that within the workplace.
So my parents, I think, wanted to avoid that as much as possible.
So, yeah, that was kind of what the warning that they gave him not to, but...
When I met him, it was kind of one of those things where you feel super drawn to this person and you feel like you have to pursue something.
There's something right or I don't know.
It was hard to describe.
I just wrote about this whole thing in my new book.
So yes, I'm with you.
That when there's a certain click for a woman, it's ridiculous to not pursue it.
I mean, unless you're married or whatever, right?
But all other things.
So, yeah, I'm with you on that.
And was it like a sort of moment that you met kind of thing, or how did that play?
Yeah, pretty much the moment that we met, I was kind of like, this felt like something.
And yeah, like I said, I was in a relationship, so it wasn't...
I definitely tried to ignore it as much as possible initially for the first few weeks, but...
It got to the point where I was so nervous about it.
I couldn't eat.
I was just nervous in my stomach and had butterflies all the time.
And I ended my relationship to be with him.
And my parents were not very happy about that, of course.
So he stepped back from working at my parents' restaurant.
Kind of just to not cause anything within the workplace.
And then my parents, as a result...
Decided to buy me a plane ticket to go to Greece for a month.
Wow. Yeah, so I think it's more my dad specifically.
He was kind of upset about the whole thing.
And also I will say that because my parents didn't really approve, I would lie about It's like nobody's ever seen Romeo and Juliet, you know?
He's now the forbidden bad boy.
Yeah, because no woman ever likes that.
No woman ever is like, oh, that's even more attractive.
It defies my parents' wishes.
Anyway, it's just one of these things that it doesn't work.
This disapproval thing, it does quite the opposite.
But anyway, go on. Oh, sorry.
Just before I forget to ask, the previous boyfriend, was he someone like, I don't know, someone your parents approved of and wanted you to date, marry, good Greek boy or whatever?
No, not necessarily.
He was definitely a little bit...
I don't know.
He also happened to work for my parents back when he was in high school at the restaurant.
Which is interesting. Pretty much everyone I've dated has some connection to the restaurant.
This is like Tinder with a side order of Spanicopata.
But anyway, go ahead. Yes, absolutely.
But yeah, no, my parents, specifically my dad, was kind of more hard on him because he would take it and called him gingerly and didn't really...
They didn't like him. They didn't see him as a fit for...
For their daughter, of course.
Is the name of the restaurant Maikia Felakia?
Anyway, sorry. Go on.
No, it's okay. Yeah, so...
And I kind of knew that relationship wasn't going anywhere.
And leading up to meeting my current boyfriend, I was kind of having thoughts, I guess, of what I wanted in a person, which was like, you know, having some sort of financial stability and having...
career and being hard-working and things that I wasn't really finding in my relationship at the
time with my previous boyfriend. So when I met him it was like, when I met my current boyfriend,
it was like the perfect thing of all those things that I needed. Someone who was strong and
had good values and all of that stuff.
And listen, I don't mean to...
I don't mean to... I don't say this is sort of dissent if your current attraction to him, but how handsome is he?
How tall is he? I mean, how many hormones are we working with here?
He's a little bit taller than me, but definitely, like, one of the more most attractive, if not the most attractive man in my life who's given me attention.
So... And again, the attraction is important.
I don't mean to disrespect it.
I'm just trying to figure out.
Because the love at first sight thing, it can certainly happen based on sort of values and a sense of purpose and being that you get from the person.
But I mean the physical side is important too and I didn't want to – I just wanted to know where we're talking.
So he's like the hottest guy who would date you.
Yeah. Okay, that's good to know.
And again, no disrespect intended.
I'm not trying to say it's only physical, but I just wanted to get a gauge of that first.
No, for sure. That definitely informs how I feel about him quite a bit, especially as someone who, when I was younger, had better-looking friends or girls who got all the attention.
And I was not one of those people.
I was kind of the weird one.
So... To have a good-looking guy give me attention and be interested in me was obviously a very, like, wow, you know?
I don't know. No, no, absolutely wow.
Now, did he also have that same sort of attraction?
Was it a little bit slower for him, or how did that play out?
Well, actually, from what he's told me, I think a few days after he met me or something like that, he was with a family friend of my parents or someone that He was in our circle, whatever, and said that he was going to marry me.
And it was only a few days after the first time we met.
I'm just imagining all of the emails I'm going to get about, like, what perfume were you wearing?
You know, for all the women, it's like, what voodoo spells did you use?
How many ears of bat and eye of Newton?
Well, that's great. I mean, so he obviously saw in you something that was very compatible and rich as well.
Yeah, he actually knew my parents a little bit before because he had worked with them outside of the restaurant previously.
And in spite of everything that is wrong with my parents, they're also very like cultured people and know a lot about a lot of different things.
And so I think that made a good impression on him in terms of where their children would be at in terms of like, I don't know.
Just their exposure to different things in the world and whatnot.
And how long have you been listening to what I do?
Or what me and the community do?
I think six years or so.
My ex-boyfriend actually was the one who Isn't that interesting?
So he introduced you to this show, and I'm sure this show had something to do with the sort of richness and depth that the new guy saw in you, and so I'm just basically making the case that you all have to name your babies after me.
That's all of them, same name.
You can sequence them with numbers if you like, like Stefan 1, Stefan 2, and so on.
Maybe throw out Basil in there if you don't mind, little herb spice baby, but I'm just making that case.
Yeah. I actually love the name Basil.
Basil? I always think about, like, from Fawlty Towers, this is British comedy.
All I ever hear is this woman shrieking, Basil!
Anyway, so, okay, so, and how long have you been dating this, the new man?
It'll be four years in about September, October.
Sorry, four years, did you say?
Yes. So when he said he was going to marry you, did he mean in this geological era, or what?
Yes, I think so.
I think there's just been a lot of, like, turmoil.
I, or one of my descendants, will absolutely marry this girl!
Yeah, yeah.
Well, we're still fairly young.
We were both 21, I think, when we met.
I know. I was looking to one of your shows the other day where you were critiquing someone on the same four-year...
Yeah, that was just, we've got a pattern going on here, right?
Yeah. Right?
Well, what is it? There's an old story.
It was an old Chris Farley movie where he's in university forever and he's like, well, some people do take six years to graduate from college.
And he's like, yes, and they're called doctors.
So, okay, so let's get over this hump of the four-year thing just so I can get back to concentrating on the origin story.
Why no marriage?
I think just because, I don't know, I feel like it's been just the back and forth with my family issues and which contributes to it.
And I have some things that I'm working through because of where I've come from and the things that I've grown up with.
I'm sorry, if you could just take another run at that question but be even more vague, that would be excellent.
Because I feel like we're almost at perfect platonic vagueness, but not quite there yet, if you could just abstract it a little more.
Okay, have you talked with the boy about getting married?
Yeah, absolutely. Okay.
Have you thought about a date or a time or a circumstance under which you'll say, okay, yeah, now we're ready?
Not necessarily, no.
That's also vague, but what do you mean not necessarily?
Well, we've talked more about, I guess, about buying a house first and getting settled that way versus getting married.
And why? Have you talked about such silly things as living together before you get married?
Well, we do live together now, actually.
So we've been pretty much living together since about six months after we started dating.
So this family stuff is nonsense.
Okay. Is your family religious?
No. No.
Okay. Would your family prefer that you live with a young man who is your husband or your boyfriend?
Probably my husband. Of course they would, right?
I mean, they're old school, right?
They're probably around my age, maybe a little older, a little younger, but they would prefer that you...
Be married to the man that you're living with and buying a house with and getting financially and emotionally enmeshed together with, right?
Again, I don't want to speak for them, but I assume that's the case.
Okay. So the major conflict, I mean, you've already moved ahead with the relationship.
You've moved in together and you've done that against what your parents would like, right?
Yeah. I mean, I can give some context because it was kind of a strange...
I'm all about the context.
Context away. So, yeah.
So I was sent to Greece or whatever to go hang out with my grandparents for about a month.
And he ended up coming to Greece for a week without my parents' knowledge.
And, you know, did the whole, like, romantic thing where the bad boy comes to the location in spite of the parents' wishes, whatever.
But didn't the grandparents tell your parents?
I wasn't staying with them at the time.
I stayed with my cousins during that week, so my cousins knew, and they're young like me, so they weren't going to spill or anything.
Wow. So they sent you away from the bad boy, thus cementing things with the bad boy.
Yes, absolutely.
Excellent. So, when we got, or when I came back, I think it was like December of 2019 or so, and then we continued to see each other.
And in January, so a month later, my dad went to Greece because he was taking, I don't know, his own vacation or whatever.
And then COVID happened and everything shut down.
So my dad stayed in Greece or wasn't able to come back.
And at the time, he was there for six months.
He didn't come back until June.
But in April or so, we were moving into a different house.
And at the time, my mom was not living there.
So it was just my brother and I who were moving into the house at that point.
And My boyfriend kind of just started coming over all the time and then over time as my mom moved in and everything it just sort of all of us were living together and when my dad came back he kind of had no choice but to deal with it.
He probably could have said no if he didn't want it to be that way and we would have obliged but Okay, sorry.
Just back up a second here.
So your dad's stuck in Greece, and you and your boyfriend and your mom all end up living together?
Yeah, pretty much. Like, my mom didn't really like him at the time because of...
Your mom didn't like him?
Yeah, my parents didn't like him because he had started dating their daughter.
And then... No, no.
I'm sorry. That's not...
I mean, they may have disliked him for that.
But at what point did they find out that he had gone to visit you in Greece?
Actually, like a year after that.
Okay, so you all were lying to your parents at this point, right?
Yeah, he wanted to tell them, but I was the one who held off.
I had grown up being quite dishonest with my parents about a lot of things because my dad is a hothead, so I didn't want to tell him the truth for fear of him.
Screaming and getting crazy about it, so...
Alright, okay. I avoided that.
Okay, so just help me understand, sorry, and we'll get your dad and all of that, but I'm still trying to sort of figure out how you end up living with your boyfriend and your mother with your father away.
Yeah, it's kind of weird, but...
I don't know. He just started coming over more.
There was a flood that happened at the restaurant, so he came and helped my mom and my brother and I clean it up, which kind of, I guess, started their relationship as like, okay, this guy and I are dating and we're serious.
So she kind of had to accept that, I guess.
And then... My mom wasn't living at the new house we were moving into at the time.
So my boyfriend was coming over, you know, almost every day or whenever he was done work, whatever.
And we were sleeping there because my brother and I had established ourselves there and had fully moved in, but my mom hadn't yet.
And I guess that she just kind of got used to his presence being there and it was my choice to bring him in.
So Just kind of worked out that way.
And then when my dad got home, he didn't really have anything to say about it, I guess.
He just kind of let it be.
And then in October or November, my parents moved in fully to the house.
But I'm sorry, I mean, wouldn't your mom say to you?
Or is she also scared of his temper?
Like, I'm trying to sort of understand why your mom wouldn't say, oh, you know, this guy is around quite a bit and this, that, and the other, and...
I mean, she's quite a pushover, I think, with my father as well.
Just, my dad is kind of the person with the final say, I would say.
So, she didn't really, I don't know.
If I convinced her, even if she had true feelings, she probably wouldn't have said them to me about how she felt about the situation.
So, yeah, she just kind of let it happen.
Okay, but she didn't say anything to your dad, is that right?
Not that I know of.
I don't think so. Not that I was informed of, ever, so.
So, I mean, everyone's...
And look, I'm not saying your dad's a victim here, but I'm just sort of trying to understand it, that your dad was being lied to by everyone about something that he had very strong opinions about, right?
Yeah. Yeah, I guess so.
Yeah. Sorry, I mean, I'm not sure if I guessed so.
I mean, this is sort of a binary one, right?
I mean, your dad had, you know, rightly or wrongly and all of that, right?
But your dad had very strong feelings or thoughts about all of this.
And things were going against his wishes.
And nobody was telling him because he was trapped in a country because of COVID, right?
Yeah. I think he knew that my boyfriend was like, It's basically like a fixture of our family now.
I think he knew that, but I don't know.
I don't know who...
I guess my mom would have likely told him or whatever, but yeah, we never had a chat about it or anything when he got back.
Okay, got it, got it.
All right, so at some point your boyfriend moved in, is that right?
Yeah, it was kind of before my parents fully moved in.
Like, my boyfriend, my brother and I were fully moved into the house pretty much and lived there for about three months before my parents moved in.
And then we lived there together.
It was during COVID, so nobody was working except for my boyfriend.
The restaurant was closed.
We decided to close for longer because it didn't make sense to be Just open for takeout and stuff like that.
It just was not financially reasonable.
So like my whole family, the four of us were home and my boyfriend was going to work all day because he works in an industry where he could be working outside and stuff.
So we lived like that for about a year or so all together.
Okay, okay.
And when your dad got back, then he would have seen that the boyfriend had moved in, is that right?
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, got it.
And what was his thoughts about that?
He probably felt a certain way, but he never really expressed it.
Not that I can remember, at least.
Nothing, like, negative per se.
Yeah, I can't really remember, but I don't think he really ever confronted me about it or said anything negative.
Okay, all right.
And how long ago was this?
I guess, beginning of COVID, like three years and so?
Yeah, yeah. Two and a half years ago or so.
Two and a half years ago, okay. And then in November of 2021, so about a year later, my boyfriend and I moved into our own apartment, kind of, I guess, because I don't really remember why, but there was kind of, like, some tension between my parents and him and I in terms of, like, where we were living sort of thing.
My dad was...
I don't know.
It's hard to explain, but my dad has kind of, like, been the financial...
Backbone for my brother and I growing up and kind of wanted it to be that way.
This is what I talk about or what I mean when I say like the...
Sorry, what do you mean growing up though?
I mean, parents are supposed to pay the bills when you're growing up.
What do you mean? But even still, like when I was...
When I was like 19, 20, 21 and stuff like that, if I would be like, oh yeah, I want to start paying for my own phone bill, it would kind of be like a chuckle and a dismissal of me saying that.
They were things I had to seek out on my own to kind of like separate myself from my family.
My parents weren't like, okay, now we're going to go and you're going to pay for your own phone bill and be responsible for those things.
So my boyfriend was encouraging me to kind of like separate myself financially because my parents didn't really teach me like how to save my money or be financially independent at all.
I'm sorry, but aren't you still living in a house with your parents?
Yeah, I wasn't paying rent, but my parents were paying for all of my other bills and my car and stuff like that at the time.
Wait, so you were or you weren't paying rent?
I wasn't paying rent. Okay, so I don't know how you financially separate from your parents when you and your boyfriend are living in their house.
I guess I just mean with all of the other bills and things, like car and phone and stuff like that.
Okay, so start paying some of your own bills, but continue to live under your parents' roof.
Yeah. Right.
We had talked about paying towards, like, paying rent, but they...
No, no, I'm like, don't you want to get your own place?
Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
And is that not what sort of the financial independence thing means?
Yeah. Yeah, it does.
So that's what kind of, I guess, the result was, was that I don't know why there was tension, but I think we wanted to, like, move out into our own apartment or something like that, and my dad kind of, like, scoffed at it or whatever so there was some tension and anyway we moved out and so I've separated from my parents financially in entirety like I've paid my own bills and everything like that and since then it was kind of up until last summer so for like a year after that we were going over almost every weekend to have dinner with them Because my brother was still living there.
And it was really great.
Like, we'd have kind of like our cousins and extended family over all the time.
And, like, we were all connecting.
And everything was really good until there was this one day last summer where things kind of went out of control.
Yeah. Go on.
Okay. So...
That day, I was at the restaurant with my parents, I guess, or working, whatever, and my dad came up to me and started airing out complaints about my boyfriend in a petty way.
Like what? What was he saying?
He just said, like, I forget exactly what it was, but my dad's kind of a cynical person, I would say, and my boyfriend walked in, I guess, a few nights earlier, And instead of saying to my dad, how are you? He said, how's life?
And my dad took that really personally because my dad was like, oh, life's whatever.
My dad just has a really negative outlook a lot of the time about life.
I don't understand this at all, so you'll have to explain it a little further.
I guess just my boyfriend asking him, how's life?
To my dad felt very dismissive because I think my dad wanted him to acknowledge that my dad's life is really hard and stuff like that.
I don't know how to explain it like that because it's not...
How is your dad's life really hard?
I don't know. He was at the restaurant all the time and...
He works hard. My dad is 65, so he's at the age where he should be retiring and whatnot, but if anything, he works more than he used to.
But that's a choice, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, entrepreneurs will often prop up businesses with extra labor rather than hiring people and outsourcing it and so on, right?
So it's his choice, right?
He could sell the restaurant.
There's things he could do, right?
And I assume he gets free or subsidized labor from family members as well, right?
Not free, but yeah.
He had both of his children working for him.
Oh, so he paid all of your bills and then you charged him to work?
Yeah, my parents made it a thing where they were paying us.
Okay. Alright, so your boyfriend commits the unpardonable sin of saying, how's life, rather than, how are you, and this triggers your dad in some manner, and then he feels disrespected, or, I mean, your dad has reason to be upset, obviously, you know, the whole origin of the relationship was based on You know, lies and sub-diffusion.
The boy coming to visit you in Greece and then moving in with his wife and you when he was trapped in Greece.
I mean, so it obviously isn't anything to do with this silly house life as opposed to how are you.
But, you know, he probably has some upset about how the whole thing played out at all.
For sure. I will say one thing about that, which is interesting, is...
My boyfriend was actually the one who told my parents that he went to Greece.
I stayed in the car because I was really...
I was dreading it. But he went in and told them.
And apparently my dad got up and shook his hand and said I would have done the same thing.
Because my dad was the same way when he was younger.
Like chasing women all over the world or, you know, that sort of lifestyle.
So my dad shook his hand.
My mom was obviously...
Upset about it. Wow, he kind of went from Old Testament to like Zorba the Greek in a moment, right?
Yeah, that's kind of the way my dad is.
Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, things seemed to be going pretty well, whatever.
But yeah, my dad came over to me that one day at the restaurant last summer and he was like, I don't know, just airing out his grievances and stuff, which I thought was pretty inappropriate and kind of caught me off guard because I don't really like talking badly about my partner or friends or family members with my parents.
It just doesn't feel like the right decision.
And my dad suggested going to Greece as a family, just the four of us.
And I'd kind of brought up that Like, my boyfriend and I were talking about maybe going, like, so it was all five of us included because my boyfriend was, you know, a big part of my family now and had been living with us for, like, a year and stuff.
And when I even suggested that, my dad just kind of was like, no, no, no, and started getting, like, really uptight about it and angry.
I think just the way he verbalized what he was trying to say, because I think he was just trying to say like, oh, I would have liked it to be like just the four of us because we haven't been on a family trip in a long time sort of thing.
But the way it came across was really like aggressive.
And he said that the only way my boyfriend could come is if one of the kitchen staff comes.
Which... Felt really offensive and unnecessary.
Sorry, the kitchen staff come...
I missed that. The kitchen staff comes with what?
He said that the only way my boyfriend could come on our family trip to Greece is if one of the kitchen staff came.
I'm not sure I followed the logic of that.
Yeah, there wasn't really any logic there.
He kind of said, like, for my brother to have company...
On the trip or something, but like the way he said it...
Oh, because if you guys are off doing family stuff, then maybe he'd feel excluded or something like that?
Yeah, but my boyfriend and my brother are friends, so I don't know.
But I guess just like the way in which my dad was saying it was being very aggressive and like, I don't know.
It just really bothered me, of course, and...
I wasn't going to tell my boyfriend about it because I didn't want to bring him into some unnecessary drama with my dad because this kind of thing where my dad is saying rude remarks or whatever is kind of a commonplace thing with him.
But it slipped out that same day.
I was talking to my boyfriend and we were actually headed to my parents for dinner.
And we weren't going to go, but then last minute decided we should just because it was the right thing to do.
My boyfriend said he was just going to like hold his tongue and not bring it up and whatever.
Just have dinner and go home.
And when we were there, we had a family member over and my dad wanted to Take a family photo with her, but was kind of like, oh, only the family gets in the photo or something, and was telling my boyfriend to be out of the photo.
And while it wasn't meaning to be targeted towards him, I think my boyfriend got kind of bothered by that, and it showed on his face, because he was already upset with my dad about the comments my dad had made earlier.
And my dad...
I confronted him about it and was like, oh, what's wrong with you?
Let's talk about it. Let's talk.
And my boyfriend said no.
My dad insisted.
They went into the other room to talk about it.
From what I understand, my dad started calling my boyfriend names and saying the only reason he was successful was because he lived at my parents' house and because my parents helped him out.
And they started calling each other names.
And my boyfriend kind of said something that...
Really upset my father, and my father came out and involved everyone else that was at the family dinner in the issue.
And since that day, my parents have just talked badly, I guess, about him in the restaurant with my co-workers and other, like, family friends and stuff.
And My dad has said that he is unwilling to forgive or forget the situation, even if it's for the greater good.
And yeah, kind of just stuck in like a family thing where I'm in the middle between both of them.
But what was said?
My dad called him a stupid ass and then my boyfriend called him a motherfucker.
Okay, that escalated fairly quickly.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
So, what the hell?
Why is your boyfriend using such...
I mean, you know, be upset and all of that and have difficulties with people, but I mean, that's a really vile slur, right?
For sure, yeah. So, it may not just be your father who has a bit of a temper, right?
Yeah, no, definitely.
My boyfriend definitely swears quite a bit, I would say, and I think it was just...
From what I understood my boyfriend tried to walk away multiple times while they were having the disagreement but my dad kind of like cornered him and they weren't going to get physical with each other so that was his way of like you know I guess giving him something because my boyfriend is not the type to just let people like yell at him and I will say just from Being yelled at or seeing my dad yell at staff and stuff like that, he's definitely the type that will corner you and if you try and walk away he'll follow you and just continue to like yell or talk at you so he can get his point across.
He can be very like dominating over those kinds of conversations so yeah.
Alright, did your boyfriend ever apologize for this?
He apologized to my mom.
I don't think...
No, no. To the guy he actually called this file slur.
No. So neither of them have talked actually since this happened.
My boyfriend and I have talked about it obviously almost every day since then.
And that he was willing to go and apologize and take responsibility and stuff.
But after that happened, My parents were just doing some things where they were involving some of the staff members who were also my friends and our friends outside of work and spreading rumors about him and telling lies to the other co-workers that I have.
And so it kind of just turned into a situation where it's like you don't really want to even be involved with My family, because the way they're exerting their control or power over the situation is to talk badly to other people.
And how long ago did your boyfriend swear at your dad?
This happened in June of last year, end of June.
And have they had anything to do with each other?
No. My mom has come over a couple of times to talk with us, but my dad has...
Even though, like, after that happened that same night, they, like, shook hands and my dad was like, oh, whatever, kind of just, like, dismissing it and saying that it was...
that they would get over it.
You know, when you sit and you think and ruminate on what has happened, it's easier to just be like, okay, I'm done with this situation, so...
Yeah, I mean, that's a relationship-ending expletive.
Yeah. Right?
I mean, you can't have a relationship with someone who has...
And, you know, I know that for younger people, I mean, I don't know if it's some rap toxicity or something, but for younger people, that vile slur is maybe a little bit more casual.
But for the older generation, I mean, it's just about as appalling a thing, as you could say.
I mean, especially the Greek culture, I mean, Oedipus didn't come out of nowhere, right?
So, yeah, so, I mean, your boyfriend ended the relationship with your father, and by not demanding or expecting an apology, I think you've supported him on that, right? Yeah, yeah.
No, if I'm wrong, I mean, this is your relationship, but obviously I think you would know that, I mean, the relationship for, I guess, close to a year has barely existed because your boyfriend was unbelievably verbally abusive towards your father.
And again, I'm not playing your father out as a victim here as well, but your father was rude and your boyfriend was, I mean, kind of, at least to me or my generation, kind of shockingly abusive, right?
Yeah. Sorry, go ahead.
I was just going to say, it's not the first time they've actually had, like, verbal altercations with each other.
And, yeah, it's happened before.
And, yeah, I don't want to just, like, advocate for my boyfriend's side, but my dad has also said some worse things than what he said that night.
Like worse than MF? Um, I think so.
Yeah, I mean, I wasn't there that day that it happened.
No, but what, I mean, okay, so what has your father said that your boyfriend has reported?
My dad has said stuff to me about...
I guess I can't give you a specific example, so I probably shouldn't advocate for it if I can't.
I can't remember, I can't speak directly to...
What my boyfriend has said.
Other than there was an altercation.
You can't speak to what your boyfriend has said?
What do you mean? Like, I don't remember exactly what my dad said.
I just know that it was over, like, my boyfriend was cutting down a tree and my dad wanted the tree cut a certain way, even though my boyfriend is in that profession, and started calling him an idiot or whatever and Screaming and jumping up and down and my boyfriend said okay, I'm gonna like walk away I'm not gonna be involved in this situation and my dad took his keys so that he couldn't physically leave and There's been a couple situations like that where my dad just has tried to exert Okay,
now my concern here of course is that you were raised by somebody who's verbally abusive and And you are now living with a man who's verbally abusive.
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
I mean, it's kind of tough to condemn your father if you choose a boyfriend with some similar characteristics.
Like, oh my gosh, my father was so terrible, he was a yeller, he was a screamer, so I thought I'd solve that by living with a yeller and a screamer.
Yeah. Am I wrong?
No, you're not wrong.
Okay, so how does your boyfriend's verbal aggression show up in your relationship?
I guess when we're fighting and stuff, I have tendencies to be avoidant.
No, no, I'm not asking about your tendencies.
When you start talking about you, that's to generate excuses for your boyfriend.
Okay, so how does his verbal aggression show up in your relationship?
I mean, whatever you do, we can talk about, but let's just talk about him first.
I guess just in terms of, I don't know, he can obviously raise his voice at times and also does swear.
And does he swear in the vicinity of you or does he swear at you?
It kind of depends.
Okay, so sometimes he swears at you and what has he called you?
What words does he use when he swears at you?
I don't know. I don't really want to...
Yes, you do. I guess like a bitch and stuff like that.
That's it? Yeah.
Are you sure? Yeah, yeah.
Because you seem to be pretty hesitant.
Now, if you don't want to say something, you can tell me you don't want to say it.
And of course, I mean, it's your call.
It's your choice. But I don't believe that the word you were really hesitating over was bitch.
Well, yeah.
I mean, that's kind of a common term, I guess.
Yeah, and how often are you called a bitch?
um I wouldn't say every time we fight but
Thank you.
Often when you fight, and how often do you fight?
Well, since this issue happened with my parents, it's been a lot more frequent.
I guess just because it's caused a lot of strain in our relationship, so...
No, that's an excuse.
That's an excuse. So, how often do you fight?
Once, twice a week, maybe?
And so, let's say half the time...
You get called a bitch when you fight, so you're being called a bitch maybe once a week?
Yeah. 52 times a year?
That's horrible. And I know, and you know, that he's called you worse than that, but we don't have to specify.
Is that a fair thing to say?
Sure, yeah. Okay.
So, what are you doing?
Can't have someone call you these horrible names if they also claim to love you.
Yeah. I mean, I've been married 21 years.
Never read my voice of my wife.
Never called her any names.
Because I love her. Want to hurt her?
She's never called me any names.
Never raised her voice of me.
We have disagreements, like everyone, on occasion, but...
No, that's not a thing.
So, like, when did this first start in your relationship?
When you were dating?
I can't really say exactly.
I don't remember, but obviously, since this has happened, it's become more frequent, I would say.
Just, like, letting, I don't know, Not being as controlled over how we react to each other when we're fighting, I guess?
That's a very interesting way to put it.
Not being as controlled.
Yeah. So, is your theory that when any couple fights, they desperately want to swear at each other, but they have to control it?
And then if you don't control it, you just end up swearing at each other?
Like, you know, if someone gets held underwater, they desperately want to get air, right?
And it's just like a natural thing.
When couples fight, they just want to call each other bitch and worse, but they just have to control it or restrain it.
Is that your theory of sort of human relations as a whole?
Not necessarily, no.
I guess just that, I don't know.
Sometimes I feel it like when we're fighting.
You feel what? Like, you want to hold on to your anger and it's like, oh, I could never forgive this person or never get over this.
But it's like your emotion just being really strong.
And me personally, I don't really, like, swear at people.
Sometimes I do, but that's not how I really react in arguments.
But for him, he grew up in a household that was like that.
So... Great, so then this is what your kids are going to see, right?
This is the home that you're building for your children.
Mom and dad, lob and F-bombs and bitch and MF and whatever, right?
This is what your kids are going to see?
This is the home that they're going to have to live in?
This is okay with you? This is fine?
This is good for a place for kids?
Now I know why you're not married, right?
I mean, this has nothing to do with, well, we're young, right?
You're not married because he's a scary guy.
And he's kind of brutal. And he's kind of vicious.
I'm not saying that's all he is.
He's also taller than you, right?
But I mean, he's got a mean streak, right?
Yeah. Do you want to bring kids into this?
Do you want kids to see this? Did you enjoy seeing this when you were growing up?
No. Right.
So tell me a little bit about how your parents disagreed.
So that I can understand how this got normalized for you.
Well, my mom was kind of just quiet about things.
My dad would freak out and yell and usually try and, like, I don't know.
There were times where it was a little bit more subtle, like, My dad would make mocking comments about my mom, because my brother and I were too little to really understand what they were, and they were kind of funny.
I do that with quotations.
Okay, so he's kind of snarky and covers his aggression in this veil of, quote, humor, right?
Again, it's just kind of vicious, though, right?
Yeah. Or yell.
And my mom didn't really respond a lot of the time.
But yeah, my dad was very dominating and yelled to get his way.
And typically did not see a lot of apologizing or accountability for actions that went on.
And my dad really disliked People standing up to his behavior.
So, yeah.
Okay, so your mom is less verbally aggressive than your dad and doesn't really swear, right?
Yeah. Okay, so that's you and your boyfriend, right?
Yeah. So haven't you just kind of recreated your parents' marriage here?
In some ways, yeah.
And that's not what you liked when you were a child, seeing this, right?
Yeah, no. Okay.
Is this a problem? I mean, I feel like I'm the only one who has a problem with this.
I don't want to be your conscience or your outrage.
I think it's appalling.
Be perfectly honest with you.
I think it's just a terrible way to treat someone you claim to care about, to swear at them and intimidate them and bully them and yell at them.
It's horrible. But...
You don't seem to have a problem with it, and I don't want to make up a problem for you, so we can talk about something else if this is not an issue for you.
I feel like, I don't know if it's shell shock or dissociation, or maybe you find it sexy, maybe you find it exciting.
I don't know, but I feel like I'm the only one in this conversation who has a problem with the way that you're being spoken to.
I mean, I do have a problem, but I know that I have my own ways to bring problems to The situation, and I guess, like, learning to talk about it and be like, okay, this behavior isn't appropriate, and both of us trying to work to be better is much different than what I saw growing up, which is...
No, it's getting worse! What are you talking about getting better?
You said it got worse after last June.
Help me understand how, is this, like, where's the dead cat bounce going to happen here?
This hasn't been a steady improvement.
You say it's getting worse? I guess just in terms of acknowledging it, it's gotten better, but...
I don't care about the acknowledging it.
I care about the verbal abuse.
Yeah. Yes, I'm a verbal abuser.
It doesn't stop a verbal... It's like saying, yes, yes, I am a drug addict.
Now I'm going to go out and...
Get some drugs.
I mean, does he...
I'm sorry, he's not on the call.
I mean, certainly welcome to call in.
But, I mean, does he say, I have a rage problem and I'm going to go to anger management and I'm going to go to therapy and I have to make sure, you know, I just detonated my relationship with your father-in-law and I'm harming you by calling you a bitch every week.
So, I have to get to therapy.
I have to get to anger management.
I have to find and do whatever it takes to not do this anymore.
That's not a thing. That's not anything he's done, right, in four years?
Similar, but nothing quite like that, no.
Okay, I'm happy to hear similar.
I mean, obviously, it's not going to be exactly the way that I said it, but what's the similar?
I guess working on trying to speak to me in a way that, like, I don't know, I have an issue, I guess, with being a little bit, like, I lie in situations a lot.
Well, you grew up being bullied and screamed at.
Of course you lie. Of course you lie.
I mean, that's like, you know, if you're being unjustly persecuted, it's like, yeah, you might not always be very forthright and honest.
It's like, I can understand that.
For sure. Yeah.
Because you said earlier avoidant was one of the issues that you have.
Well, of course, if you've got somebody who's screaming at you or yelling at you or calling you a bitch every week, then you're frightened.
And so you're going to be managing that.
And, of course, you're going to be avoidant.
I'm kind of avoidant of being eaten by wolves.
That doesn't mean that I have some emotional problem.
Yeah. I guess not.
I think that it just, like, it comes up so often.
And also... I tend to say that I'm going to do a lot of different things or make promises.
No, no. Let's get back to him.
I said, has he said and done, like, I've got to take anger management, I've got to get a therapy, I've got to get to the root of why I'm verbally abusive to my girlfriend, basically your husband and wife by now.
I have to figure out why I do something so incredibly destructive to people that I care about or that I love, right?
That I blew up my relationship with my father-in-law, so to speak, and I'm hurting my wife-slash-girlfriend every week.
I mean, come on, he hasn't gone to therapy or anger management for his temper, right?
Not on his own, no.
We've talked about going to therapy together, but...
Okay, so he doesn't think it's a problem or a serious enough problem to deal with it, right?
Not necessarily, no.
I'm not sure what you mean by not necessarily.
He hasn't done it, right?
Yeah. He hasn't dealt with it in a proactive fashion, right?
Yeah. And do you know why he hasn't dealt with it?
Maybe because he doesn't think it's a problem.
Well, okay, but then why doesn't he think it's a problem?
Maybe because I haven't pointed it out as a problem?
You've never pointed it out as a problem?
Well, I have, but not as something that's like, I don't know, relationship ending over?
I don't know. Well, because you'll have sex with him anyway.
That's the ultimate reward mechanism for men.
It's not the only thing we care about, but it's the ultimate reward mechanism for men.
If you're going to live with him, you're going to maybe do his laundry, cook him some meals, have sex with him.
That's the ultimate reward mechanism.
It's like giving a toddler candy and then expecting him to do the opposite of whatever you gave him candy for.
You actively reward him.
By staying in the relationship, by offering up your companionship, sexual access, running the house, or whatever you're doing, right?
I mean, you're actively rewarding him, just as your mom actively rewards your father.
Now, most people don't have an internalized sense of ethics.
They are kind of like mammals, like how you train a dolphin with herring, right?
Or a dog with, like, treats or rewards.
And so he is a foul-mouthed, occasionally abusive, bad-tempered, kind of vicious boyfriend at times.
Again, I'm not saying that's all he is, but this is what we're talking about, right?
And he's been that way from the very beginning, right?
Because I asked you when did you first see it and you got all kind of foggy on me, which tells me everything I need to know.
You saw it pretty early. He prefers to yell at you than to deal with his issues.
And I understand that, right?
So he's in his... Is he about your age?
Yeah. Okay, so like early, mid-20s, right?
So he's probably screamed at a whole bunch of people over the course of his life, and if he ever finds out that he's kind of an a-hole for doing that, then he's got a lot of apologizing to do, which he finds humiliating, and humiliation is why he screams at people, right?
Because he can't negotiate and all that.
So... He doesn't want to go through that process.
He doesn't want to go through that process of...
I mean, for sure, his family was...
I mean, this language doesn't come out of nowhere, right?
I assume that his family is verbally aggressive as well.
His dad was, yeah.
Yeah. So his dad's a screamer.
You're a screamer. He screams at you.
You lie. You appease.
You get bullied and you smile and hang in there and you bury your own feelings of outrage and upset and you self-erase in order to continue to Have this repetition, and it all has to do with defending your father, because that's all you're used to, that's all you think you're worth.
I mean, all the stuff you've heard a million times on this show before.
But he does it because it works.
You saw him in the restaurant four years ago, and he fit you like a key in the lock, because he's kind of like your dad.
And so... What you felt was attraction was just a kind of sick familiarity and all that you feel that you're worth.
Now, I have become progressively more protective over the years.
I am a father of a 14-year-old.
She's going to be 15 this year, right?
So, of course, she's thinking about boys and dating, right?
Yeah. And I've got to tell you, I may not be objective here.
Somebody calls my precious, beautiful daughter a bitch.
They may never find him again.
My gosh!
It's very sad that this is what you're used to, that this is what you expect, that this is what you reward in a man.
How dare he speak to you in this way?
Supposedly the love of his life.
Supposedly the future mother of his children.
How dare he speak to you in this way?
And how dare you accept it?
It's wrong.
It's harmful.
It's toxic. It's destructive.
And how dare you say, well, I can be avoidant at times and I have my own issues, right?
As if that's, well, fine.
You know, literally is at the level of, well, of course he beat me up.
His dinner wasn't the right temperature.
That was my fault. Again, I'm not putting you in the category of physical abuser, but at least I hope not.
But I'm doing my sort of desperate best here.
To denormalize the living hell out of this for you.
This is not love.
This is not how relationships work.
And you deserve better.
And he deserves better.
You understand that you are making him worse by rewarding him for his behavior.
Like if I was a parent and every time my son hit another kid, I gave him a piece of candy, would I be helping my son?
No, no. What would I be doing to my son?
Encouraging him to continue doing that.
Right. Every time you put up with this, every time you get back into bed with this guy, every time you give him hugs and kisses after all of this horrifying behavior.
You're just rewarding the worst aspects of him.
And you understand that this comes out of a deep anger to you, that you are trapping him in self-destructive behavior because you're angry at him, which means you're angry at your dad.
You absolutely don't put up with this!
Absolutely don't!
Here I am yelling at you saying don't put up with people yelling at you, but you know what I mean?
You don't put up with people calling you a bitch every week or ever.
You don't put up with people who scream UMF at your dad.
That's not healthy.
That's not right. And it's one thing, look, if it's just I care about you as a human being, right?
But you absolutely cannot bring children into this environment.
Like, absolutely not!
And if you do want to get married and you do want to have kids, whew!
But that's a hard no.
Isn't it? I guess so, yeah.
So tell me what you're thinking or feeling.
I don't know. This is a lot to process, for sure.
And... I don't know.
I... I really want to be in denial of it, I guess.
I'm just used to that.
I think you already are, based on your response, right?
Because you might as well be reading me a shopping list, right?
I've got to get some eggs, some bacon, some cheese.
And yeah, I'm kind of in denial.
Yeah. I mean, when you were a little kid, right?
You were a little girl. You dreamed of love.
We all do, right? You dreamed of a handsome prince.
You dreamed of being swept away on horseback.
You dreamed of being draped in jewels.
You dreamed of a white castle in the clouds.
You dreamed of a pony. Whatever, right?
Did you ever dream of this?
No. I can't wait for my knight in shining armor to call me a bitch every week.
Right?
Yeah.
If you have a daughter and your daughter calls you up and says my boyfriend keeps calling
me a bitch, what do you say?
Probably to get out of that relationship.
Why probably? Under what circumstances would you not say that?
I don't know. Yeah, no.
If your best friend came to you and said, my boyfriend called my dad an FF and yells at me and calls me a bitch every week and even worse, what would you say to your friend?
To leave. Likely, yeah.
And your friend would say, well, why?
I mean, you know, everybody's hot-tempered, everybody has disagreements, everybody fights.
Relationships at work.
He's just a passionate guy.
I don't know.
Yeah, this is a lot.
you you
I mean, because you were raised by a petty, immature, bullying screamer like your dad, Do you think this is like masculinity as a whole?
Do you think, well, this is, you know, I could just replace one man with another, but it's just going to be the same?
I mean, is this what you think men do as a whole?
I mean, I know better, I guess, but I haven't really seen it, so I don't know.
And do you know why you haven't seen it?
I don't know, because I grew up Nope.
That's not why. Hey, I grew up with screamers.
Do I have any screamers in my life?
Nope. No.
No. Why have you not seen it?
Why have you not seen men who aren't overgrown toddlers?
I haven't sought out relationships with people who aren't like that.
That's a question. I could tell you why.
Because you accept it.
Because you accept it, and listen, I have sympathy for this, and I'm not saying that your standards are just terrible, and I don't want you to self-attack on this.
You were trained to accept it.
You were raised to accept it.
But because you accept it, screamers are around you.
Now, let's say that...
I wasn't the guy you were calling up for any kind of feedback.
I was a guy, a friend we met socially.
I come over to your family dinner, right?
And along with dessert comes MF bombs exploding across the table as the two men scream at each other like a bunch of bear-trapped toddlers, right?
Am I coming back? No.
Absolutely not. I don't want that in my life.
That's weird and uncomfortable.
So the reason why you don't see the non-screamers is the screamers are keeping them all away.
Right. Yeah.
Now, of course, you know, your boyfriend, if he was on the call, would doubtless say, oh, she's exaggerating and she has her own stuff and she provokes me and this, that, and the other, right?
Blah, blah, blah. Don't get it.
I don't care. I don't care.
Men have a special obligation to not intimidate women.
Do you know why? I don't know.
We're the ones who decide whether or not they...
Well, that's kind of consequentialist.
Like, well, I really want to scream at women, but then I can't have sex with them, so I'll bottle it up.
No, men have a special obligation to not intimidate women because we're bigger and we're stronger.
Right? Yeah.
I mean, if you've got a ten-year-old and you've got a five-year-old and the ten-year-old says, the five-year-old is physically bullying me, what would you say?
You've got to be kidding. You're twice his size.
Whereas if the five-year-old says the ten-year-old is physically bullying him, we would probably accept that a little more, right?
We would believe him, right?
Men have, I mean, he's taller than you.
I'm sure he's got a good 50 to 70 pounds on you, right?
He's got 40% greater upper body strength on average.
So he's bigger, he's taller, he's more muscular, he's stronger.
And so as a bigger and taller and stronger and more muscular person you have a special
You have a special obligation to not intimidate people when you're bigger and stronger than them and
Men have a special obligation to not Intimidate women because we're bigger and stronger
In the same way an older sibling has a slightly stronger obligation to not physically intimidate his much younger
sibling Does that make sense? Yeah, right
Because men have that power We're bigger and we're stronger. And it's kind of, I mean, I know that there's police and all of that, but, you know, it's how we evolved, right?
And so, he is verbally abusive, in my opinion.
And he got the girl.
Right? When was the first time he raised his voice at you?
When you started dating, correct?
Or was it even before? Or did you see him raise his voice against someone else before you started dating or early in the dating process?
Um, no.
It would have been when we were dating.
Okay. But I can't remember.
So, yeah, early on when we started dating, I... I was still talking to my ex after we had cut that relationship off and...
I'm trying to think here.
One sec. No, take your time.
There's no rush. I don't know.
but one of the earliest things I guess I can think of in terms of a scenario where that may have
I can't say exactly.
I don't know if he ever yelled.
I would say he probably may have.
But when I was going to Greece, I was...
I don't know.
That whole day was very...
Like the first day when I was being sent off by my parents.
Yeah. My mom was driving me to the airport and we went to say bye to my dad and my dad was screaming me out in the parking lot and yelling at me and saying that I stabbed him in the heart and I don't know a bunch of stuff and other people heard and saw whatever so I was obviously very emotional and upset and when I got to the airport I was feeling really alone and I called my ex-boyfriend Which was obviously, in retrospect, like an awful decision for both of us because I was just trying to seek some comfort from somebody because I was also in a long-term relationship with him previously.
How long was your relationship with your ex?
Three years. And was he a yeller or a screamer or verbally abusive or call you names?
Sometimes, but not really often.
He was more like passive, I guess.
I don't know. I would say I was more of like the verbally abusive person in that relationship, for sure.
Okay. So you call your ex.
Now, your parents sent you to Greece in order to have you not date the new guy, right?
So this was right at the beginning?
Yeah, pretty much like a couple months after we had met.
But how long after you'd started dating?
Well, we kind of basically started dating.
Like seeing each other almost right away.
Okay, so a couple of months into the relationship, your parents said you to Greece, your father screams, you step by heart in the parking lot, and then you call your ex, and then what happens?
Well, I get to Greece in my cousin's apartment and basically just having, you know, a meltdown because I'm physically alone in another country and My cousins I think were both like at school when I arrived or whatever.
I don't know. So I was just kind of a mess and when I did end up calling my current boyfriend he could tell that something was off and I just kept saying no there isn't and lying about it and then I don't remember him yelling but I'm saying that that could have been maybe one of the first Times, because obviously he was really upset about the fact that I lied to him and said I wasn't going to talk to my ex, but then I did.
Oh, so you told him that you talked to your ex?
I did end up telling him, yeah.
Right. Yeah.
And you don't remember his response?
No. Really?
No, I'm serious.
Yeah, I don't remember. It was over the phone.
Right. Yeah, I'm not really sure.
But it's also interesting that you called your ex rather than your current boyfriend when you were upset.
Yeah, well, he was...
I didn't call him because he was in school.
Like, he was in class that day, at that time.
And I knew he wasn't available.
And, uh...
Yeah, it was...
Well, no, but... Come on, I mean...
But then you don't call him and talk to him after you get to Greece or that evening or the next day or...
Right, come on. I mean, let's not split hairs here, right?
In fact, you kind of hid how upset you were from your current boyfriend, so the idea that you didn't call him because you were in class is, I mean, you've got to give me credit for a little more intelligence than that, right?
Yeah. I mean, I texted him and was saying that I was really upset, but when I was dropped off at the airport and was physically alone and No, you called the guy who was nicer.
You called the guy who was nicer and you weren't as vulnerable with the guy who was not as nice.
You called the guy who could give you comfort because you didn't get comfort from the guy.
Who was your current boyfriend?
Or you were afraid you weren't going to get comfort and then when you did talk to him it turned out to be a
conflict, right?
I guess so yeah Yeah, I mean you dumped the nicer guy for the meaner guy
And again, I'm not saying that's all they were, but this is sort of my understanding.
Yeah. Now, your current boyfriend, of course, he knows and has probably witnessed all of the torrents of abuse that you got from your father, right?
Yeah, for sure.
Right. So he knows how incredibly painful verbal abuse is for you, right?
Yeah. He knows your vulnerability.
He knows that you're defenseless.
In the case of verbal attack, right?
He knows how it cuts you to the core and he knows that you kind of have trauma, significant trauma left over from having a screamer of a father and even into the present, is that right?
Yeah. Right.
So if somebody knows, like let's say you have a big bruise, you banged your knee, you've got a big bruise on your knee, right?
Does someone who loves you push down on your knee?
No. And you say to someone, man, my knee is just killing me.
And then he gets into a fight and he whacks your knee.
Is that loving? No.
So your boyfriend knows exactly how painful and how defenseless you are in the face of verbal abuse.
So what does he do once or twice a week?
How does he get his way? How does he win?
How does he dominate? By pushing you exactly where you hurt the most.
Exactly. You were vulnerable with him and you told him, this is what hurts me the most.
And what does he do with that knowledge?
Hurts you the most. See, vulnerability is when you say to people, this is what my soft spot is, this is what hurts me the most.
And you do that with people who love you in order to help them not hurt you accidentally and to say, here's where I am the most raw, here's where I am the most sensitive, here's where I am the most defenseless, right?
Yeah. And your boyfriend knows that very deeply, right?
Yeah.
And what does he do with that knowledge?
Uses it against you.
Yeah, yeah. Right?
You're kind of stuck in the past, my friend.
You're kind of stuck as a kid.
You're kind of stuck in history.
For sure, yeah. I mean, I think a good man who was your boyfriend who saw your father screaming at you or yelling at you or calling you names, what would a good man do?
I honestly don't know.
Probably say never to talk to them again.
Well, he would say, I can't watch you be treated this way.
It's too awful.
I'm not going to have anything to do with your parents.
And I would suggest that you don't subject yourself to this verbal abuse at all.
But I'm not going to watch you get verbal abuse any more than I would watch you go get punched.
I'm not going to watch you...
be harmed in this way because I care about you and my instinct as a man is to provide and protect and your father is just abusing his power so much that I will not watch you be harmed.
I mean everything that's wrong in the world is just a deficiency of love.
Right? I mean if I had a girlfriend whose father was Calling her names and yelling at her or screaming at her or whatever.
I mean, I would say to him, like, what are you doing?
No, you don't do that.
No, my God, are you crazy?
You don't do that. You don't scream at people.
Especially your kids. Like, no, what are you doing?
And, you know, he'd get all, what are you to tell me?
All ape-like and who knows, right?
But like, okay, well, listen, I'm not here to change you.
But I'm tapping out. Like, I will not be in an environment where a person I love is torn apart.
I'm not going to do it. I'd hold out my hand to you and say, let's get out of here.
Let's get out of this dungeon, this underworld, this cage of giant venomous toddlers.
Like, let's get out of here, right?
And maybe you take my hand and come and maybe you wouldn't, right?
I mean, that would be your choice. That would be your free will.
Yeah. But I don't know that anyone stood up for you in that way or cared about you enough, right?
No, definitely not. Well, listen, I'm sorry, my friend, but if no one's going to do it, who has to do it?
I do, yeah. Yes, you do.
Well, you don't have to do it. You can continue to live this way for the rest of your life.
I mean, a lot of people do. It's not really a philosophical approach to life.
That's what I'm trying to do, is to say, I wouldn't have anything to do with anyone who hurt someone I loved.
You know, occasionally we can say things that are maybe thoughtless or whatever, you know, somebody could say to me, listen, wide load, you might have gained 10 pounds or whatever, I don't know, like maybe say it nicer.
Okay, I don't like hearing that, but it's good to hear and it's good to know in case I need to drop a little weight or whatever it is, right?
But no, I wouldn't...
I wouldn't break bread with people who'd done the most damage to the woman I love.
Yeah. How do I... Sorry, go ahead.
Sorry. No, I was just going to say to kind of lead into talking about more like my relationship with my parents, I guess, because...
Anyway. Well, no, I mean, so I'm a universal morality guy, right?
As you know, this is what people mostly call me about, even though it's not explicit.
So I'm a universal morality guy.
You don't scream at people.
You don't call them names. You don't verbally abuse them, especially your children, especially if it's a father and a daughter.
You don't do it. Because it's incredibly toxic and harmful, and it sets your children up for just this kind of relationship that you have now with this guy for the last four years, off and on, right?
So the universal morality is, if you had a daughter whose boyfriend was calling her names and yelling at her once or twice a week, you would probably say, get out.
Your parents, your mother and your father, they're a system, right?
Your father should never have yelled at you, and what would have stopped him from yelling at you was your mother saying what?
What would your mother have said the first time she saw your dad yell at his kids?
Don't ever talk to them like that.
Or else, or what?
Or I'll leave.
Yeah, listen, I love you, you're a great guy.
You've got some wires crossed about this yelling thing and I sympathize with that.
I know you come from a tough background and of course I should have dealt with this long before we had kids but I'm just going to tell you straight up.
If you scream at those kids, if you call those kids names, if you yell at the products of my womb, I'm leaving you and I'm taking as much of your stuff as I can.
So that's your choice. You can spend half a million dollars to take care of me and the kids for the rest of your life Or you can spend $5,000 going to therapy and anger management and dealing with it that way.
I obviously hope that you'll go to anger management, but it's not a thing that's going to happen in the household.
Did your mother do that? No.
No. She had sex with him.
She gave him more children. She ran his household.
She washed his socks.
She ironed his shirts. Here's all the rewards in the known universe.
I'm going to pay you with the most precious coin there is to keep screaming at the kids.
That's on her. Not a victim.
The only victims were you and your siblings.
Your father was being rewarded for screaming.
And you are rewarding your boyfriend for screaming.
And you are trapping him in the worst aspects of himself.
You're feeding only his devils and starving his angels, right?
I can't tell you Or I can't make you understand or make you hear that you deserve better.
Because if this is all you think you deserve, this is all you're going to get.
If I go to a company and say, I'll work for you for $10 an hour, even if they want to pay me more, what are they going to pay me?
$10 an hour. Yeah.
Yeah. Stephen Soderbergh got a whole bunch of movie stars to make the movie Ocean's Eleven, and he paid them, I don't know, a couple of hundred grand each, right?
Because he said, look, movie stars are so expensive, we never see movies with big stars in them, so you guys are going to just have to take a whole bunch of cut rate.
And they did it, right? Because they all wanted to be movie stars making the movie together.
It was a good script and all of that, right?
So normally Brad Pitt is like 10, 15 million dollars a movie.
He did it for like 200 grand or something like that, right?
Jeff Daniels, In the movie Dumb and Dumber, I think was only paid 50 grand because he was a kind of more serious actor and nobody believed he could do Lloyd, the dumb guy in the movie.
But Jim Carrey said he's absolutely the guy.
And he got paid 50 grand or something for the movie.
Was he worth more?
Hell yeah. I mean, the movie was a huge hit, made, I don't know, hundreds of millions of dollars or something, had a sequel.
Jeff Daniels made 50 grand.
50 grand. Matt Damon was offered the main lead in the original Avatar movie, and he was offered like 10% of the movie.
The movie did like $2 billion.
That's $200 million from Matthew Damon, or Matt Damon, that he turned down.
So, in life, if you're around moral people, they will provide to you what is moral.
If you're around amoral people, which is to say most people, They will provide to you not what is right, not what is virtuous, not what has integrity.
They will provide to you only what you think you're worth.
Whatever they can get away with.
Now, unfortunately, it doesn't sound to me like you're surrounded by people with an overabundance of personal integrity and commitment to morality and virtue.
So, unfortunately, you're in a situation where people are treating you According to what you think you deserve.
I can tell you till I'm blue in the face that you absolutely deserve better.
But if you don't think so, I'm not sure what it matters what I say.
Is it possible that no one should call you a bitch to your face?
Okay? Is it better if nobody yells at you or calls you names?
Yeah. Do you deserve people not yelling at you and calling you names?
Yeah. So what do you have to do?
Find people who aren't going to do that?
I mean, you've got a lot invested in these relationships.
I don't know what you should or shouldn't do, but You know, maybe you can just go to everyone in your life and say, listen, jerks, because, you know, it's okay if you call someone a name after so many years, right?
But no, you can say, listen, people, there's this whole thing that's been going on where you all get to just yell at me and call me names.
I'm just here to tell you this is not happening anymore.
I'm not putting up with it anymore.
I'm sorry that I, as the child, with your father, right?
I'm sorry that I, as the child, with you being 65 years old, that I, being 40 years younger than you, should be the one to have to tell you, don't scream at your children.
Don't be a freaking toddler.
Because you say it's dominant.
No, it's not. It's just petty things.
Manipulative, weak-willed, weak-minded bullying.
It's not dominant.
It's weak. Bullying your children is not the mark of a strong person.
You know, if Mike Tyson beats up a Girl Scout, we don't sit there and say, wow, you know, he's just really dominant.
We say, no, he's like, that's pathetic.
It's pathetic. I always want to say to parents, pick on someone your own size.
If you're so tough, why don't you do to your parents what you do to your kids?
Do you scream at your parents?
No. But you scream at your kids because you're just so tough and dominant.
It's like, no, you're weak and petty.
And you pick on the helpless and dependent kids you created and were trapped with you for 20 years and you bully them.
It's not dominant. It's not strong.
It's pathetic and weak and cowardly and bullying.
You ever seen your dad scream at a cop?
Um...
Who could arrest him?
Bye.
Probably not. Does a health inspector come over to the restaurant?
Does your dad scream at them too?
I'm going to say no.
I wouldn't put it past him in certain situations.
But you've never seen it? Yeah, no, I haven't seen it.
Right. So he's all big on screaming at children.
Do you ever see him scream at a customs officer when he's trying to fly?
Do you ever see him scream at a flight attendant who could kick him off a plane?
No. Oh, he's a real tough guy, right?
Just screams? Oh no, he only screams at children.
Yeah. Or people who work for him.
Or people who work for him.
Yeah, he's such a tough guy.
Anybody who has power over him, he's doubled over licking their boots.
Yeah. Being nice and charming.
But when he has power, he just wields it like a petty, fiery whip.
So this is not a dominant person.
This is pathetic.
Anybody who has power...
I mean, I was a boss.
I had 30 people working for me.
I knew how incredibly gentle I had to be with those people because they were always afraid of being fired.
Now, I mean, not that I was threatening it or anything like that, but I was just aware.
You need a very light touch.
My daughter, like all children, is born wanting to please her parents.
So you have to make sure that you coax them out of that over time.
Because otherwise they'll end up wanting to please everyone in authority, and that's no good for the world as a whole.
Yeah. So I think you look at this as strong and virile and manly and blah, blah, blah.
It's the complete opposite.
Men are there to protect women and children, not scream at them, not put them down, not verbally abuse them, not call them bitches or worse.
That's not masculine.
That's not protecting.
That's not helping women feel safe and secure in a world that is more dangerous for women than for men in many ways.
Yeah. He should be your rock to keep you safe.
Sorry, go ahead. No, it's okay.
I was just going to say that I don't necessarily see acting.
I don't see acting that way as being manly.
But you did say dominant with regards to your boyfriend and your dad a couple of times.
Yeah, I guess so, yeah.
Well, I guess I mean dominant in a negative sort of way.
Not the positive.
Okay, that's fair. So, now, of course, your father would rather you think that all men are like him, so that he has the excuse called testosterone.
All testosterone makes you scream at people.
It's like, no, it doesn't. Yeah.
No, testosterone makes you strong so that you protect people.
But home should be the place you feel the safest, right?
Yeah. And it's probably the place where you feel the most...
Insecure at times, right, with these fights?
Yeah, it depends. Well, I mean, is there any other place where people call you terrible names once or twice a week?
Outside of your parents' place?
I mean, does it happen to you at work?
Does it happen to you with your friends at the grocery store, on the subway?
Does it happen any other place that people call you terrible names once or twice a week?
No. No?
So your home, which is supposed to be a sanctuary, is probably the place where you get the worst treatment.
I'm sorry for that. I mean, it's really tragic that your father conditioned you in this way, and I have massive sympathy for that.
I really do. I mean, it's just awful that this got normalized for you.
And, you know, it's asking a lot.
I was older than you when I figured all this stuff out.
So, you know, it's asking a lot for somebody in their 20s to say, or mid-20s, early 20s to say, oof, you know, every day I put up with this, I get more used to it.
Yeah. Every cigarette you smoke gets you more addicted, right?
And every day that you have this in your life, you get more and more and more used to it.
And I'm trying to, I guess, shock you out of that hypnosis, that repetition compulsion, so to speak, if that makes sense.
Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, something's got to change.
Your boyfriend's not going to change.
He's getting worse. Your father's not going to change.
He's 65. At least they're not going to change based upon their own impulse.
The only chance you have, or the only chance that they have for better behavior, in my opinion, the only chance they have for better behavior is for you to stop putting up with bad behavior.
Restaurants don't change their menus if they're full all the time.
But when no one's coming to the restaurant, things change, right?
Yeah. Look at me using a very familiar analogy.
Yes, yeah. Right.
Right, so if you continue to reward people for treating you badly and they don't have an internalized sense of ethics, which is why they're able to treat you badly, they'll just keep treating you badly.
Like, I'm sorry, I wish that people around you were, but had that internal sense of ethics so they wouldn't do that.
It would be their rule. I won't yell at people.
But the bad people are keeping the good people away.
And then it just looks like, There's just nothing but bad people around because the good people aren't around, right?
Yeah. I did step back from my parents' restaurant in, I guess, the end of December because of a specific thing that my mom said about my boyfriend.
What did your mom say about your boyfriend?
She was talking with some of the other girls and...
My boyfriend and I were going out for dinner, or talking about going out for dinner with a couple of my co-workers, and my mom told the other girl to spit in my boyfriend's food.
What? Yeah.
No! Yeah.
Your mother told a server to spit in your boyfriend's food?
Yeah. Was this because of what happened between your boyfriend and your father, or something else, or you don't even know?
I think, well, this was like, I found out about this, yeah, I guess in December, like a week before I quit.
So I think it's just played out since that whole thing happened with my dad.
Yeah, there's been a lot of like, little things like that, where my parents are talking like that.
But yeah, she involved one of the other girls and said that to her.
And She didn't want to say anything, of course, because she doesn't want to be brought in the middle, but she did, and so I quit.
So your mother's just about as vicious as your dad, right?
Just in a more underhanded way, I guess?
Yeah, absolutely. She can be, yeah.
I feel like working in the restaurant is kind of one of those places where you put on a face and a facade to people and greet them because it's customer service and whatever.
Oh, restaurants are generally full of crazy people.
For sure. No question.
Restaurants and hair salons.
Anyway. And then they leave and you're like, oh, I hate that person or whatever you say.
So that composure kind of gets put into her real life.
Wow. Pretty much the restaurant is our real lives, which is kind of the way I've grown up.
Right. Right. And yeah, restaurants are full of very highly stressed people in pretty high stressful situations and there's a lot of volatility and so on.
Yeah, I get all of that.
For sure. Okay.
Your emotions, my friend, where are they?
I've spent the last hour and a half reaching across a canyon and falling into it every time.
Like, trying to get some sort of sense of connection or something.
I guess, yeah.
I mean, I acknowledge what you're saying, but also, like, I'm just inclined to be very, like, in denial of it.
Like, I hear what you're saying and I appreciate it and it's all true and I will take it and...
Take it to heart, for sure.
Which is why I reached out to talk with you, because I always valued your opinion, even if I don't necessarily agree with everything, whatever.
But... Yeah, I don't know.
It's hard to be outwardly emotional about it, because I... Sorry, because why?
I guess I choose in a lot of my life to ignore hard issues and just take the easy path of not ruffling any feathers or doing...
Oh, you consider where you are to be the easy path?
You mean this is the easy path?
This volatile relationship and being called a bitch every week?
This is your life of ease?
Life of leisure? This is the path of leisure resistance?
Hmm... Not necessarily, but there are lots of great things about it.
And also, I definitely have, like, abandonment issues, I guess, or fear of being alone.
Okay. Well, the last thing I'll say is this then, and hopefully this will help.
Okay. You say, I'm in denial.
Like, this is something that's just organic to you, and it's just coming out of you, and...
It's just a you thing, right?
Like I'm in denial, like you own the denial, right?
Nothing could be further from the truth.
You are not at all in denial, not even a tiny bit.
So, when you have an emotion, the first thing you need to have a strong emotion or you have some strong mental concept, some mental construct, you say, ah, who does this serve?
Now, sometimes your emotions serve you.
Like if somebody's really harming your interests and you get angry, your emotion is serving your interests and is going to be inconvenient to the other person, right?
Now, denial.
Denial is the abandonment of your own emotions, the abandonment of your own outrage and anger and self-protection.
Is that a fair way to put it?
Okay, so who does that serve?
Everyone in my life.
Except... Except me, yeah.
Except you. Right, so you don't have denial.
You're not living with denial.
Denial is not a you thing.
Denial is implanted in you by other people so they can continue to harm you.
Right. Yeah.
So you don't have denial.
Denial is inflicted upon you so that you don't have any self-protection around people who are
kind of predatory kind of savage
Yeah, it's sort of like like if somebody's robbing from the restaurant somebody's stealing from the restaurant
Would they rather the owner think he just lost some things or misplaced the money or lost it or what they rather the
owner think Oh someone's stealing
Thank you.
The thief would much rather the owner think it was his mistake, right?
Right, yeah. Right, so the thief would much rather the owner be in denial about stealing, about thievery in the restaurant.
So, of course, the thief will continue to say, oh yeah, no, you had that, you just must have misplaced it, or, oh, I think I saw a customer walking out with that, I tried to catch them.
Like, the thief is going to want the owner to be in denial about thieving, right?
The denial serves the thief, not the owner.
Because the owner just keeps getting preyed on, right?
So you're not in denial.
Denial is necessary so that people can continue to hurt you, steal from you.
So this lack of feeling isn't a you thing.
This lack of feeling serves other people.
Right. Okay.
I just wanted to be clear on that so that you don't also own your denial like it's some fault of yours or whatever it is, right?
No, for sure. Yeah.
Alright. Have you done any talk therapy or have you thought about that at all?
I am kind of actively doing it but I haven't quite found I guess the right person.
I don't know. It's also like expensive so it's Really?
Compared to what? Well, at this point in time, I just started a new job, so I don't have the most money in the world.
Personally, I would like to be able to do it once a week, if possible.
But paying $100 or more every week is kind of a hard thing to do.
Weren't you talking about getting a house?
Yeah, I'm trying to save also at the same time.
Well, trying to get a house is pretty expensive, isn't it?
Yeah. Compared to what?
I'm not saving a lot of money for that right now.
I just started working for...
Well, I was a contractor before, but I just started working in my job kind of in between part and full time, so I'm not making the most amount right now, but...
Right. I mean, does your boyfriend make more money?
Yeah, absolutely. Well, listen, you guys are already sharing a bed, you're sharing a house, you're sharing bank accounts, you're sharing a life.
I'm sure he would be happy to help you with some therapy costs, right?
Yeah, yeah. Okay.
Well, that's, I mean, it might be fair.
You could say it's a hundred bucks for every time you called me a bitch.
How's that? I'm just kidding.
I'm just kidding. Don't say that.
But yeah, I mean, he would be, I'm sure he would be happy to help you out.
Yeah, since stepping, obviously that was kind of one of the hard things about leaving the restaurant too, is that it's financially a pretty decent job for a young person.
Yeah, no, I worked in restaurants for many years when I was younger, so I get, yeah, it can be good coin.
But, you know, at what cost, right?
Yeah. There's more to life than money, right?
Integrity in your soul matters, right?
I mean, I gave up a lot of money to tell the truth of the world and I don't regret it for a moment.
Yeah. And listen, if for whatever reason you end up totally broken, you still want to do therapy and you can't get the money, just give me a shout and I'm sure we can.
I've done this before. You've probably heard this before, but I'd be happy to help out if needed.
So just keep me posted, all right?
Yeah, thank you. I appreciate it.
You're very welcome. Is there anything else that you wanted to add or say at the end, how's the convo?
Again, because I can't see you and you're a little muted in your voice.
I'm not sure how this has landed for you.
Pretty well, I guess.
Could I ask, I guess, maybe your suggestions on how to deal with like family stuff?
Well, I think I've already said that, haven't I? Yeah.
It's a universal standard, right?
People who scream at you, people who verbally abuse you, people who want to spit in your boyfriend's food, that's a hard no, right?
That's not a thing that you can accept.
And so the people need to improve their behavior.
They just need to do better.
You can say to your mom, if you had a waitress who spat in a customer's food, You would fire that person, right?
Yeah. So, if you want someone to spit in my boyfriend's food, your job as a mom is hanging by a thread.
Right. Like, your mom obviously is like, I don't know, she's like some Sopranos mother or something like that from the show.
So, there's like some Lady Macbeth stuff right in there.
So... Yeah, just like, I'm no.
Like, if someone yells at you, just hang up or leave the situation and say, I'm going to need an apology and I'm going to need you to tell me how this isn't going to happen again because this has been going on my whole life and my whole life I've been waiting for you to grow up and stop being such a toddler bully, which again is a total insult to toddlers who are toddlers after all.
But it's just about having standards and not...
Accepting less than those standards.
You know, with my own mother, I was like, I'm tired of you just talking and me just kind of pretending to listen and being bored and annoyed and frustrated.
And I just know I'm going to need at least some two-way communication, right?
Didn't happen. Wouldn't happen. Okay.
Well, I'm not putting up with one-way communication anymore.
Like, I'm not. Yeah.
I'm not going to do it. And so, we either do the two-way thing or...
I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it.
So it's just a UPP thing, right?
It's like if you have a daughter and your daughter was being called a bitch, you would say, well, I mean, if she was heavily invested in the relationship, you'd say, well, look, you can't accept this.
Like, this has to be a hard no.
Particularly, I mean, sorry, this is my question to you.
I don't know if I asked this before.
I know we touched on the subject, but do you want to have kids in the future?
Yeah. Okay.
For sure. Would you accept your kids being, like, seeing their mom being called a bitch on a regular basis?
No. No.
So, that problem has to be solved before you even think about having children, right?
Right. Yeah. And it's getting worse, not better, right?
And the reason why it's getting worse, by the way, like earlier I said, people do what they can get away with.
So the reason why your boyfriend is worse now than he was before what happened with your father is you've accepted what happened with your father.
You've accepted your boyfriend calling your father an MF, right?
That hasn't been a deal breaker for you.
So he's like, man, I can get away with anything.
She has no standards.
Like, I know you've got your issues with your dad.
But he called your dad an MF and has never apologized for it and hasn't been shocked into anger management.
So he's like, man, I can call her dad an MF. I can get away with anything.
I don't need to have any restraint because there's never going to be any consequences for what I do.
That's why it's getting worse, right?
That's how things tend to go, right?
Things either get better or they get worse as a whole, right?
So, yeah, I mean, and again, I'm really sorry.
I mean, it's not your fault that you were conditioned for all of this, and I hope that you have great sympathy for yourself, as I do, about how you ended up in this kind of situation.
The culture doesn't help you.
I mean, I doubt that there's anyone in your family or extended family who would have any kind of standard about this is unacceptable behavior, because if they're around, they've accepted the behavior, and if they didn't accept the behavior, they're not around.
So either way, they can't help you, right?
I was just going to say when the whole thing happened with my family and stuff, like my dad played a role in that blowout as well, of course, and the woman who was there is like my mom's cousin or something like that, like my second cousin.
Anyway, we kind of talked about it like the next day because she was still there and She kind of just said, like, oh, with your parents, you know, you just have to deal with it.
It's the way that it is.
Like, your parents, you know, my dad was the same way and, like, always judged my decisions and, like, never liked anyone and would yell at my boyfriends, but it's kind of the way it is.
Yeah, so she has this spineless fatalism, just take it as they kick you.
Well, that's crap.
Sorry, that's just cowardly crap.
You don't have to deal with it.
You don't have to take it.
You don't have to submit yourself to a life of horrible verbal abuse until the end of your days.
You don't have to.
You can, I don't recommend it, but you don't have to.
And if you want to have kids, man, you want to give them a different life than you had growing up, right?
I mean, that wasn't a whole lot of fun with that level of volatility and violence, emotional and verbal violence in the environment, right?
Yeah. So, yeah.
And, you know, if you listen to a show like this, then obviously I consider you enormously bright and fascinated by virtue and integrity and universality.
And, yeah, if you would...
You can't take different advice for yourself than you would give to others, right?
I mean, and if you would say to a friend, you shouldn't put up with this behavior, then you have to take that advice.
You can't give advice that you wouldn't take, right?
I mean, if a doctor prescribed you some medicine for an illness and then the doctor had the same illness and said, oh my God, I would never take that medicine, what would you think?
What? What are you crazy?
What the hell is going on? Right?
So that's just a universality thing.
And I think at some point, I mean, I certainly invite you to just have to say, like, I was trained to put up this behavior.
I'm done. I'm burned out.
I'm exhausted. My adrenal glands are burned out.
Because it's going to get worse.
You won't be able to sleep, and you'll be in a constant state of fight or flight, and your youthful vitality will tend to drain away.
It's just bad. And then you just get hardened, and then you get angry and aggressive, and you start taking it out on other people because you're so crushed down yourself.
It just gets worse from here.
There's no better thing.
There's no bounce here unless you make it happen.
I think the suggestion with the family is No, I'm not putting up with this behavior.
Y'all need to find a way to stop it.
It's not my job. Well, you know, you provoke it.
It's like, no, no, you're the parents.
It's your job. Your job to fix it.
You're my elders. You want the respect of my elders?
Okay, then you've got to stop behaving like elders and stop blaming me for your blow-ups, right?
Because you're the adult here, right?
So, yeah, it's just like, I don't do this behavior anymore.
I don't accept this behavior anymore.
And if people want to change, fantastic.
You know, you can be enthusiastic about them going to anger management or therapy or dealing with stuff or whatever, right?
Odds are they won't want to change, but, you know, you never know.
I've certainly heard of it. And if they...
I mean, they'll test you, right?
What they'll do is they'll be nicer for a little bit and then they'll just see if they can get away with it again, like toddlers, right?
I mean... Yeah.
So, you know, and then you just have to...
Be alert and be conscious and say, nope, no, I'm not...
You know, everybody's had this, you know, you have a confrontation with someone and they say, okay, okay, I'll try and stop and then they just slowly let the behavior creep back in and see if you notice and see if they can get away with it.
It's all very, very tragic and predictable, but...
And yeah, then it's just, you know, I wouldn't have screamers in my life.
I just won't do it. And there's no standard higher than that for me.
It's like, whoa, but she's your mother.
She's, you know, my father's dead and my mother's probably on death's door at this point in her life, but...
No, I just, like, I'm sorry, life's too short to be under the thumb of immature and volatile people.
Like, no thanks. I've got a family to raise.
I've got a career to have. I've got a wife to love.
I've got friends to hang out with.
I'm just not going back to this abe zoo of volatility and immaturity.
Like, no, just not even remotely tempting to me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Will you keep me posted about how things are going?
Yeah, absolutely. All right.
I appreciate the conversation.
You did a great job. I look forward to hearing how things are going.
Of course, if your boyfriend wants to call in, he's certainly welcome to.
You know the email, right? Yeah, for sure.
Thank you. Take care.
Bye. You as well.
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