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June 3, 2022 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:03:57
HOW TO DATE A FEMINIST!
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Hey friends! It's Steph Bart.
How are you doing? Oh, Pinch Punch first day of the month.
We got ourselves a 1st of June 2022.
How are you guys doing this evening?
What's on your mind?
What are your thoughts?
Now, it is true that the Johnny Depp verdict is in.
And we got a 10.
And we got a 2.
He's got 10 mil.
She's got 2. And I think there's another 5 thrown in there somewhere.
But, I don't know.
It's interesting. So, I mean, I think there's a fair amount to talk about that.
But, before we get to that, you know, who matters in this conversation?
Me, a smidge! Yeah, for sure.
For sure. But, you, even more.
Because you are the glorious listeners who make all of this brain-spanning voodoo possible.
So... If you have any thoughts, any comments, any questions, criticisms, issues, compliments on my eyebrow grooming, whatever is on your mind.
Just hit yourself the raise your hand to talk.
You can also raise your finger.
I'll accept that as well. And if you have something on your mind, man, I'm happy to hear from you first before I do my thing.
Frederick, you're going to have to unmute, but I'm all ears, brother.
If you've got something on your mind, what's on your brain?
Good evening, sir, Stefan.
Good to be talking to you again.
Thank you. We talked last year.
I found myself in a depression back then and a shit ton happened since then, I'm happy to say.
I have moved past that depression about one and a half months ago.
And Yeah, I took some therapy as well during that period.
And it so happens that I have began dating, right?
I was the guy who never asked out a woman in his life.
And I actually began working with a dating coach.
But I also happened to come across a very special woman online.
on a language exchange application because I'm also learning Spanish and we have been chatting every day since it's only four days and today we had the first like really kind of a tough conversation so We always went pretty deep in all of our calls, but today there was something that quite upset her and upset me as well.
And this relates to what I think I heard on your show, and so I'm curious to hear what your take is on that.
Go for it. Yeah.
I'm a little anxious right now.
Well, this should be being depressed though, right?
I mean, if you've got to choose between the two, I think anxiety gives you a little more fuel than depression.
But yeah, it's fine. Go for it.
I'm interested. Take your time.
So we talked about marriage.
Like, we're talking about all of the big things already.
Wait, sorry. You talked about marriage, like, as an abstract concept?
Because, you know, this four days into chatting, it may be a little soon to talk about getting married.
But you mean, like, are you interested in marriage or do you like marriage as an institution?
You mean that kind of thing? I guess you could say so, yeah.
No, we're both looking for a partner to marry.
Hang on. Why are you passive-aggressing me, bro?
I mean, I guess you could say so.
This is your story, man. I'm just trying to follow and understand the parameters.
I mean, did you guys talk about getting married to each other or did you talk about marriage as a goal that you and I have as a general thing?
We are considering each other as partners, as potential partners.
Do you mean marriage partners?
Or dating partners?
What do you mean? Don't you start dating and then you marry?
Isn't that... Yes, that is true.
But I'm trying to understand...
It's not a criticism, I'm just trying to understand, right?
Which is, you've known the girl for four days.
Now, listen, if you're interested in someone romantically...
Then it's good to say, you know, like if you're a guy who wants to get married and you are interested in dating someone, you say, I mean, you can say, of course, that, yeah, I mean, my goal in life is to end up married and, you know, I'm not just interested in flings or one-night stands or whatever it is.
Like, my goal is to get married.
And to make sure that you both have that as...
A general goal or a general idea.
Or you can say, if you start to become really interested in someone romantically, you can say, you know, if you want to have kids, say, yeah, I mean, my goal is to get married and have kids in the long run.
And you can check whether the person has the same goal.
If the person is like, oh, I never want to have kids, then you want to pump the brakes and get out before you start wrecking your heart.
So if it's the general conversation around what your life goals are and to make sure there's some compatibility, that seems like a good thing.
On the other hand, if it's like, I've known you for four days, but I could really see you as a wife.
That seems to me not quite as good, if that makes any sense.
So I was just trying to differentiate the two.
I'm having a little trouble getting the difference since we're asking each other about our life goals, about our dreams, about what we want.
As well as what love means to us and what marriage would look like ideally for each of us.
Does that make sense? I mean obviously we've only known each other for four days and she lives at the other end of the world and so yeah I get that but we're just we're building a friendship.
Well, no, it's not quite a friendship thing if you're talking about marriage goals as a general thing, right?
I mean, it's a bit more than a friendship, right?
And again, none of this is a criticism.
I just want to make sure I understand what you're talking about.
Because, listen, I'm not saying you're one of them, but there are some people out there that go through something called fusion, right?
So fusion is when Basically, you meet someone, you have no boundaries.
You've heard me talk to people like this.
We met and then I moved in a week later and then we started planning our life together the week after that.
They just kind of really glom onto each other.
It's like two jellyfish being thrown together.
They just kind of merge into one blob.
That tends to work out really badly as a whole.
You have commitment and you have vulnerability and you have I'm just trying to watch your back here and make sure that I know which side of the category you fall on.
It certainly is sensible to talk about life goals with someone you're romantically interested in.
On the other hand, if it's like we've known each other for four days, we're perfect for each other.
We should start talking about when we can get married and what marriage would mean to us.
That might be a bit fast.
That's all I'm saying. No. Yeah, you got it.
Yeah, absolutely.
So, I totally interrupted your story just to give that one a quick fact check, but, you know, plow on ahead as if I haven't been so intrusive in interrupting.
Go ahead. So, I don't know how exactly we came to it, but she...
The question came that she asked me...
And I'm still a little confused about this, but she asked me...
Whether, when, okay, so yeah, it's about the marriage contract.
If you enter a marriage, the man expects the woman to be able to have children, right, because he wants children and she wants children as well.
They enter the marriage, they form the marriage bond, and then it turns out that maybe she is infertile or he's infertile.
What do you do? Is it just?
Is it okay for either of them to file for divorce because they are not able to fulfill their originally set goal of making a family?
And now I think I remember you saying And please, correct me if I'm wrong on that, that yes, that is a possibility, that it's just, that it's okay to do that if, for example, she turns out to be infertile, to say, sorry, but I entered this marriage with the expectation of having children of my own, and since that's not possible, I want to move on and find a different partner.
Yeah, like Henry VIII, right?
Yeah, so, I mean, this is not a foundational moral issue, right?
So, being married, staying married, or getting a divorce.
If you get a divorce, it's not a violation of the non-aggression principle to get a divorce, right?
I mean, unless you get a divorce by burying your wife in the backyard in a bucket of lime or something, right?
So, yeah, getting a divorce is not a violation of the non-aggression principle.
Now, if you have made a solemn promise that you're going to be with this person forever and ever, amen, until death do you part, in better or worse, in sickness and in health, Whether they're kids or whether they're not.
In other words, if you have made a commitment to the woman to say, look, I love you.
I want to have kids with you.
But if you turn out to not be able to have kids, I still want to be with you.
Because you're more important to me than the kids.
Okay, that's perfectly fine, perfectly valid.
Now, this verbal contract, it's not like signing a contract with a cult, right?
I mean, you can change your mind.
And this happens often.
All the time. It happens all the time.
So for instance, a lot of women will say, I don't really want to have kids.
If they meet a guy who doesn't really want to have kids.
I've talked with these couples before, right?
So the woman says, I don't really want to have kids.
Now maybe she just really loves the guy or is really attached to the guy or really wants to marry the guy and the guy doesn't want to have kids and she's like...
And she says, you know, with reasonable honesty...
Because you can't say with perfect honesty what you're going to want or not want in 5 or 10 years, right?
So they get married at 25 and they have a good old life and they're chugging along and then she starts to get baby rabies, right?
Which generally happens to women in their early to mid-30s.
And baby rabies is a seriously powerful force of nature.
Some women have described it as It's like constantly needing to pee or constantly being hungry, like you just have a hunger for a baby and you can't think of anything else and you burst into tears when you see a baby and you just have this unbelievable craving to have a baby and so on.
Now, if she marries her husband with the goal or with the idea that they're not going to have kids and she genuinely at the time doesn't really feel that kids are that important, well guess what?
You can change your mind.
You know, you can change your mind.
Now, she may then say, look, I'm aware.
Man, I really didn't think I was going to end up like this.
I really didn't think I was going to end up wanting to have kids this bad.
But my God, it's like gravity.
It's like a force of nature.
I am dying to have kids.
Can we renegotiate, right?
And now, if you do renegotiate, that's fine.
You can renegotiate anything you want in a relationship.
You can change your mind. Somebody might enter into a relationship that's an open relationship and then they may say, I love you.
I don't want to share you.
I don't want to be shared. Can we renegotiate this to be a monogamous relationship?
I guess it could happen vice versa, but that's just kind of gross.
You can't strip away your free will.
By making non-moral commitments binding forever, right?
So there is a moral commitment called, I don't know, don't kill people.
Yeah, okay. I don't want people saying, well, I have free will with regards to that or whatever, right?
Don't rape, don't assault, don't steal.
Yeah, I mean, I'm perfect, but that's a thou shalt not, which is quite a bit, you know, if I just say there's only one spot in Baltimore you can't go to, the rest of the world is yours.
That's leaving you pretty much all of the world.
But if I say you can only go to this one spot in Baltimore, that doesn't leave you anything except that one spot in Baltimore.
So thou shalt not is very liberating rather than thou shalt, right?
So I really, you know, people make commitments and those commitments are important.
But those commitments, again, outside of rape, theft, assault and murder, right?
Those commitments should not strip your free will forever.
Sure.
So if you at the age of 23 or 24 or 25 or whatever, if you say, I don't really want kids or it doesn't matter to me or I genuinely don't want kids, okay, that's fine.
But that doesn't mean that now you are forbidden from having children for the rest of your life because you can change your mind.
That's free will, right? You can change your mind.
In fact, having people change their mind is a pretty delightful part of relationships because it means that people stay fresh, it stays new, they stay interesting, and so on, right?
I mean, in my marriage, right, I was a writer when my wife met me.
And then I got back into the software field and was a software executive.
And then I'm a podcaster.
So yeah, I changed my mind.
So you can do that.
Everything's open to renegotiation.
So if you... You could say to a woman, I really, really want to have kids.
And yes, if you're infertile, that's going to be a big issue, right?
That may be a deal breaker for me, right?
Because for a woman being infertile is like a man not making any money.
Can it be survived? Sure.
Is it going to completely reconfigure the relationship?
Yes. Might you regret it down the road?
Yeah, probably, right?
So you can say, look, I want to have kids.
That doesn't mean that if you can't have kids, and, you know, most fertility issues are women because the plumbing is just more complicated, right?
So you can say to the woman, look, if you can't have kids, that doesn't mean that we get divorced, right?
I mean, personally, of course, there's lots of options when it comes to having kids, right?
There are fertility treatments, there are surrogates, there is adoption, there are just lots of options.
So you could say, look, I want to have kids.
I'm going to be honest with you. Marriage to me is about having kids.
If it turns out you can't have kids, and you know, 10% of married couples do struggle with fertility issues.
But of course, the younger, the better for these kinds of things, of course, right?
So you could say, look, if you can't have kids, that's a big problem.
I don't know exactly how I'm going to handle it.
Because, you know, you're not just going to wake up one day and say...
Well, you just can't have kids, right?
You try, and you usually have to try for, what, 6 to 12 months before you even can get reliable medical help, and then, you know, maybe you'll get an explanation, maybe you won't.
You'll try all these different things in vitro and so on.
So it tends to be a pretty multi-year process.
Now, how you're going to feel at the end of that multi-year process or during that multi-year process if you finally get the verdict or basically you run out of money or you run out of years and you just say, okay, well, look, kids aren't happening, you don't know exactly how you're going to feel.
But... Wanting to have children is a pretty important thing.
I mean, I have a pretty great life, but my life would not be nearly as great without my daughter.
I mean, just the way it is, right?
I mean, it might be better in different ways, whatever, more books, more travel, but, you know, this is the way that I want it.
But, you know, I think being honest is important.
But you see, for women, this is tough.
And I'm going to make a guess here, and then you can tell me if I'm correct.
So my guess is that she said, well, if you want to have kids, what if you get together with a woman, like maybe me, you get married or whatever, and she can't have kids?
And then you said, well, you know, that would probably be a big issue for me.
I might then get a divorce and then find a woman who can have kids and go that route, right?
And then she feels all kinds of pained Because then she's like, well, so your love is conditional, and it's conditional for things that are probably beyond my control, such as whether I can get pregnant or bring a baby to term or whatever it is, right?
So then she feels rejected the moment that you say, it's possible that infertility would be a deal-breaker for me.
Is it something like that that happened?
You nail it. Yeah, that's it.
Right. Give me a rough overview of how the convo went.
Yes. It's at that point that I could see that she was in pain.
I felt pretty shitty as well.
And she said that that is cruel.
That she thinks that's cruel.
That is a totally jerky thing to say on her part.
I mean, I don't know how the conversation went, but assuming that you're reporting accurately, right?
Saying that someone is cruel is not an argument.
It's not communication.
It's almost abusive.
Because she's just labeling you as a negative and destructive person because you have a preference for children.
And yes...
It might not happen, right?
You could be infertile for all you know, in which case she might leave you and find a man who can get one past the goalie.
So, yeah, just saying that you're cruel if you are expressing an honest perspective about the purpose of marriage.
No, that would be cruel.
It's not saying you are cruel.
That would be cruel.
So your decision to leave a woman who's infertile, that would be cruel, but you're not cruel.
It's like, well, wait a minute. You can't separate me from my perspectives or arguments or opinions.
If you say, I mean, if you did say, I'm sure you did, right?
You said, well, you know, it might be a deal breaker for me if the woman is infertile.
And she says, that's cruel.
Is that sort of roughly how they back and forth went?
Yeah, not as strong, but what she also says is that we might not have the same view of love in that sense, or of marriage, because she's a Latina, and I guess that plays into it, like the cultural difference.
Plays into what? Oh, is she religious, and so it is like you making a vow before God?
I don't have...
I don't know yet. We haven't had the discussion about what her actual religious beliefs are, but yes, naturally, like virtually every Latina, she grew up religious.
But what stands out with Latinas is their loyalty, like above everything, basically.
And so it seems like to me that when she marries a man, she will stick with him no matter what.
So, you know, even if you're...
Okay, let's say you get hit by a car and end up brain dead.
Is she going to stick with you for life?
I mean, you can always make up scenarios in which you're going to get rejected.
Always. What if I get a brain injury and my personality completely changes and I become violent and abusive?
Are you going to stay with me then?
No? Oh, then you don't really love me.
Like, you can always come up with some scenario in which you're going to be rejected.
But then trying to...
I mean, you understand?
Like, that's just masochism.
I'm sorry, my computer just crashed, so I'm joining with my smartphone.
I just missed out a little bit, but...
I was just saying, you can always create a scenario, and it's kind of like a joke, right?
I don't mean that your conversation was funny, but it's kind of like a joke, where the woman says, well, okay, well, let's, like, what if I gained 20 pounds?
Would you still love me? Sure!
The more the merrier, right?
As long as it's on your left boob, right?
Or... What if I gained 50 pounds?
What if I gained 100 pounds?
What if I lost my hair?
What if I lost my hair and my teeth?
What if I got really crippling postpartum depression that just went on year after year?
What if I was in a wheelchair?
It's masochism.
You can always come up with some scenario where you're going to be rejected, right?
And I guess the question is, on your fourth conversation, Why is she coming up with scenarios where she's going to be rejected and then calling you cruel for being honest?
I'm not sure why I'm hesitant to respond.
I did not get the impression that...
Right, I think we're hitting on something here, but I don't know.
Well, no. So to me, the more interesting question is if you say, I want to have marriage for kids, right?
I want to have kids.
I want to get married and have kids. And then she immediately says, well, what if I can't have kids, right?
And again, I know it wasn't quite that simple, but that was the general flow of the convo, right?
I honestly don't remember.
Okay, but this is what happened as a whole, right?
I'm not asking necessarily for specifics, right?
What happened? Okay, you can't fog out on me here, man, because we're doing this whole conversation based upon what you said happened, and now you're like, well, I don't know what happened.
Right, so you were talking about marriage.
Again, if I've got something wrong, let me know.
You're talking about marriage and kids.
And you want kids, and she says, well, what if the woman can't have kids?
You know, would that be an issue?
Like, yeah, it could well be an issue.
That's cruel. Again, something like that, right?
No, really not.
We... Gosh.
It certainly didn't go like that.
Well, look, I understand it didn't go like that, of course.
I'm not trying to quote the conversation, but was that part of what was happening?
Because that's what you said.
You said it could be a deal breaker, and then she's like, that's cruel.
Yeah, I was talking in the abstract that, yeah, I would consider divorce an option if one party turns out to be infertile.
And that, yeah, that didn't land well on her.
Okay, but who brought up the infertile thing?
Was that her or you? Me.
Okay, so... The conversation was, okay, so I think I understand this better now.
So the conversation was, marriage is for kids.
Marriage is great. Marriage is wonderful.
And then you say, well, yes, but I would consider divorce if the woman is infertile or, you know, or divorce could be understandable if a partner turns out to be infertile.
Is that right? That's right.
Okay. So I guess that's my question then shifts to you.
My question then is...
Why are you bringing up divorce with a woman you're interested in when talking about the glories and beauties of marriage?
Oh, yeah.
Now I remember how we even came to that.
I was asking her If your spouse would like you to grow your hair out, would you do it?
And she said, clearly, no, it's my body.
I can do with it what I want.
Then I made the analogy of, well, if your spouse, the guy, decided to stop working and stop making money and supply for the family, that would then be his choice, right?
By the same logic.
And she disagreed with that, saying that, It's the man's responsibility to provide, right?
And that's a different thing.
Okay, but what does he get in return for paying the bills?
What is the woman providing in return?
Now, the traditional answer is she runs a household to raise the kids, right?
Mm-hmm. So she then has a responsibility to run the household, raise the kids.
She can't say no to that, right?
If the man can't say no to providing, the woman can't say no to whatever he's paying for, right?
Which is running the household, raising the kids.
Right, so I guess then after kids have been created, her beauty is not playing the largest role.
Well, you have to remain attractive to your spouse.
I mean, that's just a basic I love you thing, right?
Yes. You know, I mean, the men and women who get flabby, get fat, you know, whatever, right?
Outside of medical issues, right?
I mean, it's just incredibly disrespectful and destructive.
Because you've trapped the person into a monogamous sexual relationship, which means you have to stay fit.
You have to stay attractive. Given the constraints of aging and all of that, right?
So yeah, I will work out eight hours a week.
In part to stay healthy and I like feeling strong and all of that, but it's also partly because my wife, of course, and I are in a monogamous marital relationship, so you have to stay fit.
I was talking the other day, I'm I was reading about some pill you could get to grow hair, right?
If you're bald, right?
And my wife was like, no.
You're bald when I met you. You're bald now.
And so I wouldn't take the pill to grow hair if my wife doesn't want me to.
So I think it's interesting that you said, what if the man wants the woman to have long hair?
Should she have long hair?
And she said, no, right?
It's my body. I can do what I want.
So, that's a feminist thing, right?
That's why my mother is a feminist.
Right. Right.
So, to me, if my wife prefers me bald, I'm staying bald.
Like, it's not even... Well, you know, I would be curious to see what I would be like with hair again.
It's been a while, right?
So, I'd be curious, right?
I think it would be interesting. It could be neat, right?
I mean... It's been a long time since I've had to brush hair back from my forehead.
I think it would be interesting. Maybe it would make me feel more youthful.
It would just be interesting. But if my wife prefers me bald, I'm staying bald.
Why? Because that's what she prefers.
And if that's what she prefers, and we're in a monogamous relationship, I mean, it's interesting to me that she would say, no, it's my body, I can do what I want.
So she's not that religious then, because in the Bible it says a husband and wife are one flesh, right?
You don't get to have an I in a marriage.
You don't. There's no I anymore.
There's no, well, it's my body, it's my this, it's my I. No, there's none of that.
You blend. You're one flesh.
You're two sides of the same coin.
But she wants to create this, what...
Richard individuality where she's married and she gets all the benefit of the man making money and providing for her.
And what responsibilities does she have as a result of all those benefits, right?
She won't even keep her hair long if that's what he likes.
He's paying all the bills, but she won't even let her hair grow.
Come on. It's not exactly the same amount of work, right?
A man's got to work 50 hours a week to make $80,000 a year.
The woman has to literally do nothing to let her hair grow.
It's not a massive thing.
It's not a huge ask here, right?
Just sit there and let your hair grow.
Just don't do anything to cut it.
That's all. Now I get long hair is a little bit more work.
Depends on the kind of hair.
In fact, long hair can be less work for a woman with straight hair.
Yeah, it's a kind of funny thing.
You've got to go to work 50 hours a week.
50 weeks a year.
I have to not go to a hairdresser's office.
Which job would you want?
This is kind of funny, right?
So, yeah, that's a book I read many years ago by a woman named Daniel Crittenden.
She was talking about how a husband and wife were playing on a tennis team, right?
They were doubles in tennis.
And... The woman grabbed her tennis gear and they walked out a fair distance to the court, right?
And the husband, I think, had some waters or something like that.
And anyway, the woman, his wife, just had only grabbed her tennis racket and some balls, right?
And he's like, wait, why wouldn't you grab my tennis racket?
It was right there. And she's like, hey, it's your tennis racket to manage, man.
And it's like, that's just kind of jerky.
You know, like, it's like at dinner.
After dinner, if you just, you're clearing the table, but you only clear your own plate, knife and fork and cup or whatever, right?
That's just kind of just, you know.
I remember when my daughter was younger, she'd carry her plate to the kitchen.
I'd be doing something and I'd be like, do you see the other plate there?
And she's like, that wasn't my plate.
It's like, yes, but you're eight.
So maybe you can get my plate too while you're doing it, if you don't mind.
You know, it's not too much to ask.
Right? Otherwise, you know, we'll go to McDonald's and I'll be like, oh, I'll order my food.
If you brought money, you can order your own.
But hey, that's my money.
Like, come on. We share, right?
Responsibilities and benefits, right? And so, yeah, this woman was talking just about how she was observing this and it was just like, yeah, that's kind of jerky.
You know, if you've got to go...
Like, you're literally...
There's two tennis rackets there.
You go on the tennis court.
I'm going to pick up my tennis racket.
Leave this other tennis racket here and walk over, right?
But that's your tennis racket.
It's like, that's just being a douche nozzle.
And, you know, if the woman says, hey, man, that's my hair.
You don't get to tell me what to do with my hair.
It's like, okay, that's my money.
You don't get to tell me what to do with my money.
It's like, just work together as a team.
If the other person in your relationship wants something and it's not morally compromising you, like you're not dating that serial killer from Monster played by Charlize Theron who's saying, you know what would make me really happy is going to do terrible, violent things.
As long as it's not a big moral compromise, let's go rob a bank, right?
It's like, just do it, for God's sakes.
Because if you're with the kind of person that's right for you or just right to be in a relationship at all, Generosity begets generosity.
Generosity with the right person, and this is like not just right for you, this is like a decent person to be in a relationship with.
Generosity begets generosity, right?
Because this wife in the story, this woman, it's not a novel, this was like a real thing that happened, she says, right?
The woman who grabs the tennis racket, you know what she's thinking?
She's thinking, oh, he forgot his tennis racket, didn't he?
Oh, he's just off there marching off.
He expects me to take his, pick up his tennis racket, carry his tennis racket.
This is never going to change.
I'm going to forever be in charge of the tennis rackets and I'm going to show him a lesson and I'm not going to.
It's like, oh my God, that's going to, you're going to get divorced.
Like you're going to get divorced or you're going to wish you were divorced.
It's like, just pick up the fucking tennis racket and take it to your husband.
Because it's so easy to look at things that you're better at in a relationship and say, well, I'm just contributing so much more, right?
My wife is fantastic at running a household.
And it's not the easiest thing to run this kind of household sometimes, right?
So she's fantastic at running a household.
So she contributes more in that way.
Hey, man, if I see the dishwasher full, I'll empty the dishwasher.
You know, if I'm at the grocery store or heading that way, I'll call and see what we need, right?
So I'm happy to pinch it.
I'm happy to help, right? But she's fantastic at this.
Now, my wife could look at the marriage and say, well, I just do so much more and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But there are other things I do more of.
So generosity begets generosity.
So if you're with a woman and you say, you know, I really, really like your hair long.
And why do I like your hair long?
Because I'm a guy! And long hair means feminine.
And I want to marry and would like to stay married to an actual woman who doesn't have some G.I. Jane buzz cut.
Doesn't have some short at the back Karen sideswept hairdo from hell.
Yes, I would like some long hair because I'm a man and long hair is feminine.
Right? That's...
Now, if the woman says, hey, you want long hair?
You got it. Because I love you and I want you to be happy and, right?
You want long hair? You got it.
Say to my wife, you want me to stay bald?
Hey, bald it is, man.
Bring me the bowling ball polish.
That's what I'm up to, right? Because generosity begets generosity.
Now, but if you're like, well, hey, man, it's my hair.
I can do with my hair what I want and you can't tell me what to do with my hair.
It's like, okay, well, what effect is that going to have in the relationship?
How generous are you going to feel You know, I mean, we're guys.
We'll do anything for a really kind woman, for a really generous woman.
We'll meet her generosity and triple it.
That's just how we're built.
It's who we are. But her stinginess?
I don't know. If I could stay bald, women can have long hair.
It's just the way it is.
Just, man, be generous.
If your partner likes something, just do that.
You know, it's just so much easier rather than Weighing and fussing and fighting and measuring.
No, what I would do is I would just say, you know, with her, you know, it's an interesting conversation.
It's nothing hostile about it.
It's an interesting conversation.
Say, ah, well, that's interesting.
Because you're like, okay, well, what about his income?
And I get all of that, right? I mean, but it's like, oh, that's interesting.
So tell me, do you think it would be like a control thing?
Like the man would force you to have long hair?
Or like, do you feel like you'd lose your individuality if you did something to please your man?
Just explore that.
That's interesting. How do you feel?
If the man says, I like your hair long, do you feel controlled?
Do you feel bullied? Do you feel like you're under the heel of the patriarchy?
That's a very interesting question.
I would be fascinated to know if I was chatting with someone, especially if it's a quasi-romantic thing.
It's like, how interesting.
Help me understand this.
Help me understand where you're coming from.
It's not my perspective.
It doesn't mean I'm right or wrong.
It doesn't mean you're right or wrong, but I'm curious to measure the distance, measure the gap, measure where we're different, right?
Because you could be totally right.
So I think that question...
Now, let me understand something because I obviously missed something before in the conversation.
So the conversation about fertility versus infertility, did that come after the conversation about hair?
Yes. Right.
And do you know why that conversation came after the conversation about her?
Because to me, I got the impression that to her...
The marriage doesn't really change who you are as a person, like your degree of individuality, and I'm more of the opinion that, well, you're married now, so you're no longer just two people hanging out with each other, but you entered a contract, and so there are certain expectations.
You literally mix your bodies together to create a new person composed of both of you.
I mean, for kids, right?
So this idea that we're all so separate, it's like you literally have a person who came out of one person that is both of you.
Yes. Sorry, go ahead.
Yes, and she also made clear that to her, it would be very important to be able to travel solo.
And it's a little odd because that's in the scenario where there aren't children, of course.
You mean to have her own vacations, to go somewhere without you?
Yes, and I was a little confused by that.
Oh my god, really? Why would you?
Wait, so you guys are four days into having conversations and she's already planning separate vacations.
It doesn't really make sense, right?
Because if you're married to a person who you don't want to vacate with, then that doesn't make sense.
Exactly. No, but she might be trying to be attractive to you.
Well, I'm not codependent.
I'm very independent. I'm not going to be too much of a handful.
I'm not going to be, you know, glomming on to you.
Right? She might be.
Maybe this is what she's told is attractive to men.
It could be any number of reasons, right?
Yes. That's exactly it.
Like, she makes a point.
She made a point to emphasize the independence and to emphasize not being codependent.
Right, except she's perfectly happy to be codependent on your income, or a man's income, right?
Well, if we have children, if we have children.
Yeah, yeah, of course. And how old is she?
23. So she doesn't know shit.
She doesn't know shit.
And no disrespect, I didn't know shit when I was 23 either.
So at 23, and no, is she in college?
Is she like just finished college or she's in that process?
She's in that process.
Yeah, yeah. So she's just propaganda.
She's just a propaganda bot.
That's all she is. And again, no disrespect.
Could be a completely wonderful person buried under all that programming.
But yeah, she's just...
She's not at the phase where she's thought for herself in any foundational way yet.
So I wouldn't say that these are...
I mean, if I was talking to a 23-year-old with very predictable opinions based upon going to university...
Especially this, you know, don't need no man thing where you end up with all of the warning lights on your car lighting up at the same time eventually, right?
So, yeah, she's just, you know, just...
You were a little older, do I remember that rightly?
I'm 30 and I disagree.
Okay. Please consider that the culture where she grew up, like the country where she is growing up, normal thing is to marry early and to have kids very soon.
But she's a virgin at 23 and that's uncommon.
She goes totally against the grain.
Well, not in terms of modern female independence cult, right?
In the culture where she grows up, that is...
No, no, but in terms of the universities and what they're teaching all the kids in the university, all the young women in the universities, right?
Look, I mean, it's not a Western university since it's a Latino American country.
Yeah, you don't think that the Marxists have made their way to Latin America?
I think they have.
I'm sure, but I'm saying I'm not sure.
It's the same as in Germany, for example.
Right, right. Okay. So, look, maybe she has really thought these things through for herself, right?
Do you know if her parents are married?
It sounds like it to me.
Yes. Well, no, I don't know.
Hang on. I don't know that she has.
I don't know that she has.
Are her parents still together? They are, in fact.
They are, okay. It's a bad marriage to them.
Oh, it's a bad marriage?
Mm-hmm. And does she know why it's a bad marriage?
Yes, because there was abuse.
Because her father was very, very strict.
Okay... So here's my guess.
She's created a narrative that explains away her mother's abuse, her mother being abused, as her mother was too dependent and couldn't leave.
So I'm going to be independent, and that way I'm not going to be abused.
Sounds reasonable. I mean, that's totally bouncing off the past.
And, I mean, this is one of the reasons why female independence has become such a thing, right?
And please understand, if you want to be an independent female, fine.
There's more power to you.
There's nothing wrong with it. If you want to be an independent male, fine.
But if you want to get married and have kids, my God, the idea that you're going to be completely independent and isolated and solitary and it's just you when you get married and have kids is just a weird delusion that breaks up marriages.
It's just not the way life works.
So, what she's done is she said, and it's a very common thing, she said, my mother got abused.
Now her mother has to have a story about why she was abused, right?
I assume that this woman saw her mother get abused.
So the mother has to have a story, here's why I was abused.
Now, what's the actual fact as to why the woman was abused?
What's the actual fact?
The actual fact is that the woman was abused because she chose an abusive partner.
That's why the woman was abused.
But she can't say that.
So she has to say to her daughter, well, I desperately wanted to leave, but I wasn't independent enough.
He controlled all the money.
He controlled all the resources.
I couldn't leave. I wanted to.
I couldn't leave because he could try.
And you've got to be independent so you don't end up like me, right?
This whole narrative of victimhood as opposed to, look, you and I both know, man, every reasonably attractive woman has at least 50 guys she can choose from when she's young.
At least. At least 50 guys.
And I'm talking women who are 6 or 7 or an 8-plus, right?
The 9s to 10s, they've got thousands, right?
And especially the age of social media, and you're talking to her from Germany, she's in Latin America, whatever, right?
So every reasonably attractive woman has 50 guys to choose from.
Now, if she chooses the abuser, or the guy she chooses is abusive, who's that on?
Is it on the abuser?
Absolutely! It's on the abuser who raises his hand against a woman.
He's violated the non-aggression principle and blah, blah, blah.
Yeah, absolutely. But who created the situation?
If you have 50 people to choose from, and you choose the abuser, yeah, the abuser did you wrong, but you created the situation.
Now, handing back this kind of choice and responsibility to women is not the easiest task in the world.
But this is what I'm saying when she says she's not really...
She doesn't know shit. She's just bouncing off her mother's defenses.
Because her mother... Chose a dominant guy, Latin America, right?
Dominant guy, right?
The scar-faced guy, the guy who, you know, pounds tables and gets things done and is a big meaty slice of spicy manhood, right?
And then turns out, hey, look at that, this high testosterone guy, this guy who's really aggressive in his pursuit of horror, the guy who's really aggressive in getting what he wants and he's the king ape of the neighborhood and blah, blah, blah, right?
Hey, turns out he's kind of violent, right?
You know, like the 40% of cops who beat their wives kind of thing.
Like, hey, they're real alphas.
They're out there. They're taking care of criminals, right?
Preventing people from saving their kids from shootings and so on, right?
So the mom chose this, you know, probably chest-thumping alpha Stanley Kowalski dude who turned out to be abusive or didn't turn out to be abusive.
I guarantee you that the signs were right there from the very beginning.
And yes, he probably controlled her.
You've got to grow your hair long.
You've got to have dinner on the table.
When I get home from work, you've got to do this.
And she's like, okay, okay, okay, because I'm just not independent enough.
So then, of course, this woman comes along and some guy says, well, what do you do if your husband wants your hair long?
Well, I'm not going to let my husband tell me how long I can wear my hair, basically because I saw that with my mom.
And I'm not going to do that.
But that's not thinking things for yourself.
That's bouncing off your mom's defenses.
Because the mom can't say to her daughter, choose a nice guy over somebody who makes you tingle.
Because look, we all know the Fifty Shades is a great thing, right?
Guys who are really aggressive make women tingle.
It gets their blood flowing to the nether regions.
And women are programmed that way.
Particularly in their fertility cycle, they tend to go for rougher men.
When they're out of their fertility window, they tend to go for more gentle men.
So, in the same way that men go for hot women, women go for aggressive men.
And the aggressive crazy matrix is exactly the same as the hot crazy matrix.
Women going for aggressive men and then claiming to be mere helpless victims of abuse, it's like, you went for the aggressive guy.
Did you think that aggression was only going to happen somewhere else, outside the home?
It was never going to happen with you. It was never going to happen with the kids.
It's like choosing a tall guy and expecting him to be short at home.
The guy is the guy!
And Latina women will often go for very aggressive men.
And that's a prize.
Now, can she say, look, you've got to go for a guy, quality of character, niceness, consideration, thoughtfulness, reasonableness, assertive, yes, aggressive, no.
You've got to choose a different guy.
I chose the wrong guy, and you suffered for it, and I suffered for it, and it's not my fault.
It's not... It's my fault that this family was created because women choose how the families are created.
Women choose the men to be with.
Women choose who they're going to date, who they're going to get engaged to, who they're going to marry, who they're going to stay with.
And again, I know a lot of, I think it's in Ecuador in particular, a lot of priestly influence, a lot of together until death do you part, but you know that going in.
So if you're going to stay with a man until death do you part, you know that right at the beginning.
I spend, I can spend, I won't even tell you, like if I need to buy something technical, I mean, I generally do, right, a couple of times a year.
If I need to buy something technical, like I just got a new mic and a new amp and all of that, I won't even tell you how much time I go reading reviews and looking up and checking and listening to audio samples and checking the feature set.
It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous.
It's kind of fun in a way, but it's a little ridiculous, right?
Now, that's just a mic and an amp.
Or whatever. I bought a new camera recently because my old camera just couldn't get the color right and all that.
So, okay. But that's just a little piece of technical equipment I've got to buy, I can live with, I can return it, whatever, right?
If you are in the Latino community, right, or whatever, like if you genuinely believe till death do you part, then you should vet the living hell out of whoever you're going to marry because you can't ever leave them.
And so... A woman, and this is true for a man, gets married to a woman who turns out to be crazy.
It's like, you didn't vet her properly, and your family didn't vet her properly, and your friends didn't vet her properly, or if they did and told you you didn't listen, that's on you.
It's the same thing with a woman.
If a woman is going to get into a marriage knowing she's got to stay there forever, then she should vet that man insanely quickly.
Close, detailed, you name it.
Everything about his family, about his character.
And so she should vet.
Now, I guess the daughter's vetting like crazy too, but she's doing the wrong kind of thing.
So the woman you're chatting with, this is what's interesting.
This is the kind of conversations you can get into, right?
If you don't get offended and upset and mad or whatever and huffy and who you mean, right?
I'm not talking about you. I think it's a little bit more on her side.
It's saying, oh, this is interesting.
So why do you think you have such a sense of independence?
Or, you know, do you feel that if a man wants something, he's bullying you?
Or like, you know, help me understand.
I mean, I'd like to really know. And then she can get into some real, really interesting conversations, and you can liberate her through curiosity.
But what happened was, and again, I'll let you correct me if I've gone astray here, and I'll shut up in a sec.
But what happened was, you said, well, what if the man wants your hair long?
I'm not going to let my hair long for some man.
Independent woman. It's my hair, my body, right?
Okay, so then what happens is you're like, oh, okay, so if the other person doesn't do what you want, you don't have to be nice, right?
Because this is what she's saying to you.
This is the mechanics of the conversation.
I'll just lay it straight there for you, right?
So you say, well, what if the husband wants the hair longer?
And she says, uh-uh, no way.
Uh-uh, not going to happen, honey.
Okay, so then, if the other person doesn't do what you want, you don't have to be nice, right?
So then, if the woman is infertile, you don't have to be nice.
You don't have to stay with her. Now, she already set up this thing, right?
Because if the man wants the hair long, the woman doesn't provide it.
She doesn't have to be nice. She doesn't have to do what he wants.
Okay, well, if the woman is infertile and can't provide the children that man wants, he doesn't have to be nice.
He can move on, right? So you're simply taking her principle and applying it consistently.
And then she says, well, that's mean.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Yes, she was trying to make the case that it's different, right?
Well, of course she is.
Everybody does.
The moment that the principle of your behavior bounces back against your interest, of course you're going to say it's different.
Everyone has that impulse, right?
Of course you want to say it's different.
I mean, in the new Tom Cruise movie, the Top Gun movie, which is, I'll do a mini review of it, but not tonight, but Tom Cruise's character, Maverick, whatever his name is, right? His whole, the whole movie, he's saying to some guy, some fighter pilot, you know, don't think, just act, just trust your instincts, don't think, just act, right?
And then later on in the movie, the guy tells something Tom Cruise disagrees with, the Maverick disagrees with.
And so he says to the guy, what were you thinking?
And the guy says, you told me not to think!
Just act! Well, that's, you know, and now to his credit, you know, the Maverick character was like, he didn't just say, well, this is different.
This doesn't apply. He's just like, well, that's a pretty good point.
So, yeah, of course, of course she's going to want, like, when the principle of her action bounces back against her self-interest, of course, she's 23, of course she's going to say, well, that's different.
Like it's a magic spell that just changes everything, right?
And, you know, if you like the girl, you can say, oh, that's interesting.
Why is that different? Can you help me understand?
I don't quite see it, right?
Just Be relentlessly curious.
I mean, this is the book Real-Time Relationships, right?
It's free. Just be relentlessly curious.
Right? The three words of love are not I love you.
It's tell me more. Tell me more.
Oh, tell me more.
Oh, tell me more.
If the woman is allowed to cut her hair, is the husband allowed to gain weight?
Thank you.
If in a marriage you don't have to do You don't have to make reasonable accommodations for what the other person wants.
What does marriage mean to you?
If I say, I love you, and you want something from me, I should provide it.
You know, outside of moral considerations, but of course you'd never marry someone who wanted you to do something evil, right?
It's like, no, you provide it.
Just provide it. My God, just give your partner what they want.
You want my hair long? Yeah. Want me bald?
I'll be bald. Especially in that case, just don't go to the hairdresser.
Yeah. Now, I get women are going to say, well, but it's more work.
It's the long hair. It's like, yeah, but it's still less work than working 50 hours a week, which is what the husband's doing, right?
I don't know. It's just a funny thing.
I've never really quite got this Stinginess in relationships.
You know, just give the person what they want.
And be generous, especially dating.
Because if you're generous when you're dating and the other person takes advantage of you, you can get the fuck out before it's too late.
Right? You go out on a date.
Hey, I'll pay. Right?
And you're just dating, right? Hey, I'm happy to pay.
Right? And you go out on another date.
Oh, I'm happy to pay.
Right? Does the woman say, no, no, no, you got the last one.
We're just dating. You got the last one.
It's my turn. That's interesting.
Or does she keep smiling and saying, oh, that's very kind.
Thank you. Okay, well, then you have an exploiter, right?
Right, given that when you're dating, and I'm a novice when it comes to dating, you're not in a relationship, you don't have children, so it's more like a friendship at that point, right?
So it's reasonable for her to pay.
You might end up paying, but she should at least offer.
Right. Right?
I mean, I have friends where we rock, paper, scissors.
Who pays, right?
But no, I mean, you've got to offer, right?
With their wives? No, no, no.
No, no, no. With each other.
There's no one person paying in a marriage, right?
It's not like, I mean, it's not like, you know, it's like saying one person pees.
If you've got two people in a bath and one person pees, it's not one person peeing.
It's both people getting the pee, right?
So, no, I just mean with, like, let's say I've got a male friend and, you know, we're going out with the families or whatever and we can't remember who paid last.
It's just like, okay, rough, paper, scissors, right?
We'll figure out who pays that way, right?
And then, you know, we'll back and forth it a little, right?
But... No, just...
So, yeah, the woman...
You might pay for the first date.
She says, thank you very much. On the second date, you offer to pay.
She says, no, no, no, no, no.
And you might say, listen, it's my pleasure.
I asked you out. Now, if she asks you out and it's the third date or the fourth date and she doesn't even offer, yeah, whatever.
I mean, I don't know. It doesn't really matter who ends up paying.
It matters who offers and how serious they are, right?
Mm-hmm. And, of course, you want a woman who's going to offer to pay because everything's transactional in life.
And that's kind of, I think, what you were getting to in this conversation with this woman.
Everything is transactional, like it or not.
I mean, there is no platonic ideal love.
Everything is transactional.
So, if the woman won't pay for any of your dates, then she believes...
That sexual access or the potential for sexual access, that's her payment.
Well, I'm not going to pay for dinner, but you might get lucky.
It's like, I'm sorry, I don't want to date a prostitute.
The reason a woman will pay...
I'm not kidding about this.
I know it's kind of funny, but I'm not kidding.
A woman who thinks that sexual access...
It's a form of payment and makes up for you spending $50 on dinner or $100 on dinner.
It's a form of prostitute.
There can never be financial considerations for sexual access in a relationship.
That is absolutely verboten.
Hey, look at that. Give you a little German word there, right?
It's absolutely forbidden in love.
To... I mean, there's some Mindy Kaling comedy from years ago, I remember, where she ends up with a pair of earrings or something like that, and she says, oh, this is the first pair of earrings I haven't had to give a blowjob for, right?
Now, it's kind of funny-funny, but it's also, I mean, it's pretty grim humor, right?
Because if a woman is saying, oh, you have to pay $200...
For potential sexual access to me, she's saying that the price of my vagina is $200.
Well, look, I don't pay for sex.
I never have. I never will.
I would never consider it in a million years.
So the reason you want the woman to offer is so that she doesn't become a prostitute.
And again, you may pay. That doesn't really matter.
She has to offer because everything's transactional.
If you're taking a woman out a couple of times, you spend a couple of hundred bucks on this woman, on dating her, What has she provided in return?
Okay, maybe she doesn't have much money, that's fine.
Then she can cook you a real nice meal.
Right? There's things that she can do, right?
Foot rub, I don't care, right?
It doesn't have to be a monetary thing.
But there has to be an exchange of value for value when you're dating.
And if a woman believes that sexual access is a form of payment, Then she's in the sphere of prostitution.
And she's entitled.
And she will take you for everything you've got.
Because she thinks, hey, you've got to pay just to be in my presence.
Just to be around me.
You've got to throw money at me.
Well, that's no different from Venmoing an OnlyFans girl for a butt picture, right?
So, yeah, no, you definitely want to...
Want her to pay. Or offer to pay.
Again, while you're dating.
You get married or whatever, then that's all in the rear view.
You never really think about these things again.
You just make your money and you spend your money on what's necessary.
But no, no. The moment you're into paying for sexual access, the relationship is incredibly volatile at that point.
Because she's devaluing her personality by saying, well, sexual access is the main reason you'd be paying, right?
Which means I don't have anything really of personality value to offer.
I'm not a good conversationist.
I'm not virtuous. I'm not considerate or kind or thoughtful.
I just might give you sex.
So cough up the money, big boy.
I'm not saying this about this woman.
I'm just saying that as a whole, right?
All right. Anything else I can help you with in this area?
I think I'm good. I think I'm good.
Yeah, listen, sounds like an interesting woman.
I mean, I think it would be worth having a chat and, you know, apologizing because she went transactional and you went transactional, right?
He's like, well, what if the husband wants the wife to deliver long hair?
Well, no. Okay, what if the husband wants the wife to deliver babies?
Well, what if she can't? Well, no, right?
You just became transactional and I think that's interesting.
That's interesting. All right, so let's do a wee...
We pivot here and talk about this...
Actually, you know what?
Let me just ask you guys here.
Let me just ask you guys here. Hit me with a why.
I'll put the message here.
I want to make sure I'm talking about what you guys want to.
Hit me with a why if you want some thoughts on...
I do think it's interesting on this Amber Heard Johnny Depp trial thing which just resolved today.
Why? Hit me with a why in the chat if you would like to.
And if you don't want to, that's totally fine.
You know, this is your time, your convo.
I'm here to serve you.
I will put out philosophy for you without even a donation.
Although a donation would not be the end of the world.
Freedomain.com forward slash donate.
And also, by gosh, I just did chapter 41 of my new book.
I just recorded that today.
It's a tough book to record, man.
Let me tell you. Emotionally and in just about every kind of way.
But anyway, it's really good, I think.
So you can get that book at freedomain.locals.com.
It's freedomain.locals.com.
And yeah, it's a really, really great book.
It's called The Future. And a culmination of my life's work?
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