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Sept. 15, 2021 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

04:14:51

"HELP! I'M IN LOVE WITH AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT!" Freedomain Call In

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	Hey everybody, it's Steph. Hope you're doing well.
	So this is a long show, but this is really fascinating.
	This is the view from the man who is the illegal immigrant, and then the view from the woman, who is of course legal, who loves him.
	And this overlap of the he said, she said, the politics, the depth, the relationship issues, the red flags.
	Man, this is quite a conversation and I strongly, strongly urge you to sit through it, to get through it.
	It's got just amazing gold in there and I really, really thank the listeners for opening their hearts and lives up in this kind of way.
	Here we go. Hello, Stefan.
	I'm 26 years old and have found the woman of my dreams.
	She's a beautiful, virtuous, intelligent, reasonable woman who I would love to marry and spend the rest of my life with.
	However, I don't have the economic means to meet her expectations for marriage and raising a family.
	I struggle severely to succeed economically because of a specific condition.
	I'm an illegal immigrant.
	This makes it extremely difficult to function in life, both economically and morally, and I would appreciate some philosophical guidance on how I can become an economically successful man within the next few years.
	Today marks the one-year anniversary of moving out on my own, and it's been quite hellish to survive.
	Every bit of income I've earned has been through lies and deception, and I'm working low-end jobs in restaurants that don't fulfill me and won't accomplish my goals in providing for my family.
	I worry that my late start and lack of skills in the real world That's quite a question.
	Does she know your status? She knows it, yes.
	Since the whole time we've known her, she's known about it very early on.
	And I guess her philosophical views are that that's okay and she doesn't have a moral issue with her or anything.
	I guess the question is just in terms of pragmatics and income.
	Is that right? Yes, it's about the pragmatics and income.
	And for the origin story, it wasn't my choice.
	Yeah, you came with your parents and so on.
	Exactly. Hey, I know how you feel.
	I know how you feel.
	And what about, I mean, would you have citizenship in your home country or your parents' home country?
	I mean, I assume since they were born there, is there a chance to go back and, I guess, make an honest citizen out of you that way?
	Of course, that makes sense.
	The issue is the way that the laws work here is that if I leave the country, I'm banned from re-entering it for 10 years, no matter what.
	Right. Therefore, I don't want to make that ban happen.
	As long as I stay, I'm fine, you know?
	Well, but fine is a challenge, right?
	Exactly. So, what does that mean to be fine, right?
	I mean, I guess you can tell me, since I don't really know, what are the kind of issues that you're facing in your life?
	This is a good point.
	Basically, anything that the average person expects is normal economically is a big pain.
	I can't have a bank account.
	I can't have a driver's license.
	I can't get a job.
	I can't be honest with people about my status, especially my coworkers, because they can immediately go, hey, that's a giant target on your back.
	And it makes me worried being public vocally and becoming a public figure because they can use, anyone can use that as a giant screw you at any time or a threat and they just call the cops on me and I'm out.
	So it makes almost every economic decision very difficult and both morally and practically.
	It requires a ton of trust in people and it makes it hard for me to be honest with people and I so desperately want to be.
	It's a pain in the butt.
	Oh yeah, I get that.
	Now, what's the story with your parents?
	I mean, they, I guess, never went through any kind of legal immigration and what are their thoughts and feelings about all of this?
	This is quite unfortunate.
	They came in legally and because of that, that small period back in the day of them coming in legally, They were able to obtain documents necessary to basically show that they're fine living there.
	So stuff like a driver's license, a bank account, or social security.
	They got all of that through some sort of loophole that's been closed a few years after they did that.
	And then they went through the process of applying for change of status, which means that if you just fulfill the requirements possible to get it legally done, You're good to go even if you're in the country.
	It just takes many, many, many years, like over 16 years or so, to get that change of status.
	So they've been technically fine, as in legally even.
	They've been good to go.
	They haven't had too many setbacks.
	I'm sorry, just help me understand the timeline.
	So they came in illegally, but they've since become legal?
	Is that right? No, they came in legally.
	It was a legal comment.
	And the steps that they took...
	Even though they were technically illegal, they were in the process of changing their status.
	And if you're in the process of changing the status, you gain the similar and same permissions as if you are legal.
	If that makes any sense.
	So I'm still not with you.
	So if they came in legally, why would they need to change their status?
	It was on a visa.
	Oh, so sorry.
	I see. So they're illegal immigrants, but they were legal travelers.
	Is that right? I suppose, yeah.
	Well, no, I mean, you know, the ethics and morality and legality of it, I mean, we can leave that topic for another time, perhaps, but...
	Correct. So they entered the country legally, but they didn't leave when the visa expired or when they were supposed to, and then they tried to change their status from within the country from, I guess, a tourist visa or something like that to something that's a path to citizenship, is that right, or residency?
	That's right. It's...
	It's like a change of status based on a connection to a family member, and they got it, so they're good to go.
	Okay, so they are now legal residents of the country, right?
	Correct. But they did not pursue that for you, or that doesn't get included as their child, or like, I'm not sure I follow that.
	Usually children aren't...
	I mean, I know there's a dreamer thing in all of that, which I don't know if you...
	I didn't even know which country you're in, and please don't tell me.
	But help me understand why you happen to, I guess, as their offspring, escape that process.
	This is the unfortunate thing.
	This is why I'm particularly pissed at it, is...
	In that situation, I do want to say it because it makes the process much easier and it's important.
	It is the Dreamer thing that works.
	So I am in that category.
	I qualify for that.
	But for the official way to do it, without the Docker, without the Dreamer stuff, I don't qualify for what they did.
	I have to wait until they are citizens or...
	I have a direct family member that's 21 years of age or older in order to start the application process of my change of status.
	And if that happens, it's going to take another 12, 16 years after that.
	So I actually don't...
	Aren't you sort of...
	I mean, you're legally in the country then.
	Is that right? Until that 12 to 16 year process is complete?
	It's really strange how the courts work here.
	I've experienced them.
	They don't punish you if you're in the process of changing your status.
	They don't prosecute you.
	You're fine.
	And what I mean by fine is they're not going to deport you.
	And they give you what you're looking for in terms of like a driver's license, social and stuff.
	But you can't stop that process.
	I can't. I don't have any of the qualifications necessary for it.
	Again, I apologize for just not knowing this world very much at all.
	Your parents obviously are over 21, but that's not going to fix it?
	No, they need to be citizens.
	They're on the path of this sort of 12- to 16-year odyssey, right?
	Exactly, and it's real hell.
	So much paperwork, so much data that I found out.
	This will jump into why I didn't pursue the DACA, which I qualify for.
	I don't have the evidence necessary to produce the ability to, like, proof that I was here during all those years.
	So I can't get that either.
	Oh, because you were, like, a paperless citizen or, I guess, a paperless person, you don't have the paper trail?
	I mean, when did you go to school?
	That... You need...
	I went to... I went to school here, and the paper trail for that amount of time, I have.
	But I don't have the complete paper trail.
	Because partially, my dad forced it.
	It was quite harsh. That he did not want me to do it, and he wanted me to stay a big secret.
	Like, to not show myself to the government at all, as much as possible.
	He didn't trust it. He thought it would be like an executive decision that got revoked the first time around.
	You went to school, right? Yes.
	I mean, isn't that showing itself to the government just a smidge of its government school, right?
	Right, yeah. So I'm just trying to follow your dad's logic.
	That didn't expose my citizenship at all.
	I suppose that might have been his logic.
	But he's not quite a rational being, if we want to get into that.
	Yeah, I mean, I suppose...
	Let's hold off of that until I get some of the more technical aspects of the history under my belt, if you don't mind.
	Sure. Okay, so your dad kept you out of the system as much as possible, but I assume you got health care, dental care, you went to school.
	I assume there were some brush-ups with the system.
	No, I didn't get any of that besides the school.
	Oh, you didn't get health care or dental care?
	Nope. Not even, I guess, some underground stuff for people who don't have papers?
	That actually, when I was really young and needed it, yes.
	We had a few contacts that did it fine for us.
	And did he have any particular plan for you?
	Right, because I mean, as a young man, I mean, it's your mother and father who are supposed to be getting you ready for life, getting life ready for you and all that kind of stuff.
	So have you ever talked to him about like, okay, what was the plan here?
	The plan was find you a wife, get married, which here gives me immediate, it removes that 10-year ban, it gives me a green card, and it gives me on an incredibly, like, two-year path to citizenship.
	Huh. So, even if you're here illegally, you can marry and go on the...
	That's the fast track, right?
	That's the...
	Yes.
	In terms of, like, reasonable timeline for what I can do, that's the only thing that makes sense, besides, like, a dream act that I can prove that passes.
	And there are no provisions for some of the paperless kids, is that right?
	I've talked to lawyers about it, and there isn't.
	It's basically like a pray and hope that they accept you if you don't have enough evidence for that specific timeline.
	If you don't, then you're booted out for a decade, right?
	No, I'm booted out from ever applying again for DACA. I don't get like, oh, you're out, and they come after me.
	But they have my information quite strongly now.
	And personally, I'm not too worried about them having my information, but my dad was big time.
	Right. So his goal was to have you economically crippled but find an American wife.
	It seems that way, yeah.
	I can't give you three thumbs up on the plan or your dad, I suppose, for that matter, but I guess that's why we're talking, right?
	Exactly, yeah. Right.
	So tell me a little bit about this young lady.
	This young lady, oh my god.
	She, um, she's like, how do I even say it?
	I can't imagine a better suit for me.
	I found her and she is completely aligned with my values, personality, structure, what we're looking for in our future.
	There, she's a virtuous woman like I've never seen.
	So honest, courageous, like the courage that she shows, the things she fights for, like It blows my mind.
	It's inspiring, really.
	She'll fight for her beliefs, even if it costs her.
	She'll do whatever it takes.
	Her work ethic is phenomenal.
	She's intelligent like hell.
	She's so damn pretty.
	She's absolutely perfect.
	And I was constantly checking, like, really?
	Is this right? Really? Too good to be true?
	Oneitis? No? Nope.
	No, no, no. This one's genuine.
	So she... I fell in love with her and she fell in love with me like crazy, like nothing I've ever experienced before.
	And our compatibility is fantastic for the future we want to create.
	Okay, I've got to be careful here.
	We met at an economics conference.
	It's funny. The first meeting is...
	I walked up my standard conference thing and was just like, hey, hey, hey, like greeting everyone.
	I greeted her. I said, hey, I'm...
	What's your name? She's like, oh, are you him?
	And she said my name.
	I was like, what? So my first meeting, she already knew about me.
	I had a bit of a reputation in that community, apparently.
	She was really interested in me.
	A reputation in what? A reputation in the community.
	Like, oh, that guy is...
	What she said, that guy is smart at this stuff.
	He reads a lot of books. Yeah.
	She was actively looking for me, even though she had no idea who I was.
	We sat down and had a 15-minute conversation.
	That was our first conversation.
	At the end of it, both of us knew.
	We already knew.
	The stuff that we talked about was so in-depth, so revealing, so personal.
	I told her this secret.
	I never tell anyone this, ever.
	I never tell people that quickly of my status, but I told her for some reason.
	It felt right. And at the end of that conversation, we both and you, we're going to be friends or something for life.
	And I stick to that to this day.
	So that was basically the meaning.
	Right. And is her cultural background similar to yours or different?
	Cultural background?
	No. She's American and quite a world traveler.
	And I'm I'm Eastern European and not a traveler, not a world traveler, because I can't.
	I can't travel the world, but I travel a lot.
	So we have similar backgrounds, but I don't want to give the specific ones.
	No, no, no, that's totally fine.
	Please keep it as foggy as you need to.
	It's so annoying. Oh, I know.
	I know. I get it. I get it.
	Okay, so how long have you guys been going out?
	We've been official for a full year now, and we've known each other for two.
	And you've met her family and all of that?
	Every one of them. In fact, she took me on a tour to see her entire family and we all get along.
	They all know.
	We all get along and it's fully supportive.
	Their only question is always, money?
	Can he provide? That's always the question from everyone.
	And do you both want kids?
	Yep. And the same amount, same style of parenting, peaceful parenting, everything.
	Right, right. Okay. Okay.
	Yeah, that's quite a tale.
	I mean, Romeo and Juliet, star-crossed lovers, countless obstacles and so on.
	And conflicts that you've had in the relationship, they work out reasonably well as they come up?
	I'll explain this.
	They were both reasonable but very passionate people.
	So we have these high-strung conflicts.
	They're not abusive at all, but they're emotionally charged.
	And they happen frequently, and they always seem to revolve around money and my ability to provide.
	That's what I've kept checking in.
	Every source of conflict or every source of disagreement or worry, I tie it to money or the ability to provide in the future.
	And that's what I've discovered is the source of the conflict, which is part of why I call in because I feel like the source of my money problems is my status problems.
	But I want to make sure that's the case instead of me using it as an excuse when I can do something else.
	So if you can, just characterize a conflict.
	Feel free to play both sides if that will help illuminate it, but characterize the kind of conflicts and how they come up and how they play.
	Let's see. I'm trying to think of, I'll use the one that comes to mind, it's quite petty, because they're always like, they're like more on the petty side.
	No, no, don't characterize them for me.
	Let me make my own decisions, just tell me how they go.
	I'm remembering the one that sticks in my head as I think about it.
	So I was cleaning, watching the dishes in my place, and I was like cleaning out the bacon grease from the pan, dumping it down the sink.
	And she was like, no, no, no, no, don't dump it down the sink.
	They're like, throw it away out there.
	And I was just like... I'm with her. I agree with that because it clocks up the sink, right?
	Yeah. It's something I learned when I got married is you keep a little soup can and you pour it all in there rather than let it harden and then toss it out rather than put it down the sink.
	It's just one of the little things that I learned when I got married.
	But anyway, come on. Oh, thanks.
	I'm going to use that. And I looked at her and I was like, no, we've talked about this.
	I don't really do that.
	And I continued to pour it down the sink.
	Why? The reason was I grew up with that and I worked in kitchens and we just poured the grease down the sink.
	Well, but I mean, restaurant kitchens and sinks and plumbing is a whole lot more robust, right?
	I know. And it's also like my...
	My dad and I did plumbing back in the day.
	We just always poured the grease down the sink, and it was nothing special.
	It was just potentially the most cloggable plumbing ever with a septic tank, and it wasn't a problem for 20 years.
	I thought that when it cooled down, it hardened.
	Anyway, it doesn't really matter. I'll need you to talk to my wife.
	I'm just kidding. The specifics didn't matter too much.
	I'm characterizing it. But it was, like, the fact that I, like, disobeyed her.
	Or, like, I just went my own way, even though she said no.
	And then she said, like, then she got really mad.
	Hang on, hang on, sorry, let's just back up for a second, because the idea that you would say you disobeyed her or went your own way, you disagreed with her, right?
	There's no disobeying in a marriage, right?
	There's no, I don't know that there's disobeying outside of training your dog to help a blind person or something like that.
	I don't know what disobedience means in a family.
	I never think my daughter disobeys me.
	me i never think i disobey my wife or she disobeys me because that's giving someone you know the sort of final authority over you know whatever right so that's not i think how relationships should work within a family but so you disagreed with her but it was a disagreement based upon a fact and your experience working with your father on plumbing and the fact that you worked in these restaurants and yours through the grease or the oil down the down the sink right so you had a disagreement that was based on fact so she said you shouldn't do it
	i assume because it clogs or something like that and you said i know for a simple fact that it won't and here's my experience why but i don't know where disobeying comes in it Again, help me out if I'm sure I've missed something.
	I guess I'll stick to the story itself.
	After I poured it down, she got angry, crossed her arms, angry face, and was like, why did you do that?
	Why didn't you listen to me?
	So, you know, Women 101 is a lot of times when a woman says, listen to me, she actually means agree with you.
	That's the subtitle, right?
	Because you did listen to her. I mean, I fully understand every word that you said.
	I'm just not going to follow what you're saying, right?
	But for a woman, often, like, if you really listened, if you really heard me, then clearly you'd agree with me.
	And it's like, well, no, I can perfectly well listen to you and not agree with you.
	So for her, it was like, why didn't you listen to me?
	If you do what she doesn't want, that shows a lack of listening.
	Is that right? No.
	The way that it's with her...
	I talk...
	The cool thing is we can talk about this with...
	Her and I talk about it afterwards.
	And it's like, here's what happens. Here's how I thought about it.
	Here's what you think about it. And we do that really well.
	So we did that after the situation.
	But her thing is she knows better.
	I'll put it in...
	I'm talking as her. I know better, therefore you should listen to me because it does clog the sink and you need to listen to things that are rational.
	You need to do things that are rational.
	You're doing something unreasonable, therefore I'm mad.
	So hers is tied to reason, if that makes sense.
	No, I get it. I get it. So your, I guess, response would be, I am doing something rational because it won't clog the sink.
	I mean, I know from direct experience, I mean, unless you've actually been a plumber for many years with your father, I do know this, you know, for a fact, right?
	You know, a friend of mine said, I want to go and buy a 386 computer to run a web farm.
	I'd be like, no, that's not going to work.
	It's like a 25-year-old computer.
	And it wouldn't be like, you know, just like you don't know and I know, right?
	So she was obviously raised with this thing.
	I guess like some people are, like if you put the grease down the...
	Down the sink, it clogs.
	Is it the clogging thing?
	Was that the issue? It was not the issue because we talked about...
	Because after that, after she got angry and pushed back hard, I responded with a lot of anger.
	Because it's a repeatable thing where it's like, I'm told not to do that.
	I'm told not to do that for the same type of argument.
	And I was like...
	Well, hang on. Sorry. Let's back up.
	So you're about to pour something down the sink and she says don't, right?
	Uh-huh. And does she say why?
	Because it clogs up the sink. Oh, is that what she said?
	She said because it clogs up the sink and then you said what?
	No, it doesn't.
	We've been over this. I've been pouring it down for like 20 years.
	So this is a repetitive argument despite the fact that She brings, I guess, what she's been told and you bring sort of under the sink experience, so to speak, right?
	Okay, so that's interesting.
	So here's a situation where reason and evidence is not winning the day, right?
	Yeah. I'm trying to think because we also talked about… Yeah.
	You know, you can look these things up and you can, you know, is it a myth, right?
	Is it a myth that if you pour oil or grease down a sink, it'll clog, right?
	I mean, there would be, you know, you can, you know, sometimes with people when the phones first came out, right?
	My friends and I were so used to arguing facts without the internet.
	That we would literally continue arguing easily look-uppable facts despite the fact that we had a cell phone or a fire sitting right there on the table.
	And it took a little while to like, no, no, no.
	Everybody stop talking.
	Pick up the phone. Find a private search engine and go look something up.
	So there's ways to resolve these things, but you are keeping these in the realm of willpower and respect and listening and all of that volatile stuff.
	Is that the way it goes?
	Yes. I also remember the discussion we had after that incident.
	I discovered that for me, the reason I got so angry and emotional after that was because I felt like I wasn't Being respected for my knowledge and my judgment.
	And I felt like I couldn't have a say.
	I couldn't have a reasonable say.
	That's more than a feeling, right? I mean, if you've actually worked with your dad as a plumber and you've had this, as you said, septic system, most liable...
	Like, if you actually know this, right?
	Then that's an interesting question, right?
	Correct. So you are being...
	Your experience, your direct experience is being disrespected, right?
	It's being like, okay, it doesn't matter that you've done this for years or it doesn't matter that you know and you've been working with a plumber or whatever.
	It's just like, no, you're wrong and you have to do it my way, right?
	Essentially.
	But the argument that I stuck to in that reasoning was that even if it clogs up, I don't mind.
	Because it's not exactly my place and I doubt that like maybe three times using a little bit of grease, a tiny amount, will actually clog it.
	And even if it is, just use Drano.
	Okay, hang on, hang on.
	You're almost as oily as the substance we're talking about in this moment, right?
	Because you said to me, it doesn't clog.
	I'm not trying to get into the fight with you.
	There's a bit of a pivot here.
	It's fine. I don't care. I wanted to point it out.
	Now you're saying, even if it does, right?
	If my daughter says, does the sun rise at midnight?
	I say, no, the sun doesn't rise at midnight.
	But even if it does, it's like, no, no, no.
	One is an absolute statement of impossibility.
	The other is, well, what if it does?
	We'll deal with it, right? And so those are two, like epistemologically speaking, those are two different situations, right?
	One is, nope, doesn't happen.
	The other is, well, if it does happen, it'll be fine.
	Correct. And so I'm just, again, there's no criticism.
	I'm just, you know, if you can help me understand the pivot, right?
	Because that's interesting.
	I do that. I pivot like this a lot when I, because I'll leave room for me being wrong.
	It's like, okay, let's say I am wrong in my experience.
	Let's say you're right. Even if you're correct, it's still okay.
	That's how I tend to debate and argue with people.
	Does that make sense? Bad sequences of reasoning, it doesn't matter which one you pull out.
	It can be the first one or the last one.
	It still won't work. So I can say, even if we accept 99 of your arguments, the 100th one still doesn't follow.
	So, okay. I mean, that's an interesting pivot, right?
	And this is a really, really fascinating area of the relationship, right?
	So, okay. So she says, don't put this down the sink.
	And you say, it's not going to clog.
	And even if it does, it won't be a problem.
	And then you just, what happens then?
	Do you just pour it down the sink or something else?
	The order is incorrect.
	Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Correct me. The reason I want to say that is because it was the factual argument first, then I poured it down, and then I explained my reasoning.
	Wait, wait. Sorry. So, did she see you about to pour it down?
	Yeah. Okay.
	So, she did say stop, right?
	Uh-huh. And then you gave your factual argument?
	Uh-huh. And poured it down.
	And then you poured it down, but did you wait for her response to your factual argument?
	No. Oh, dude!
	That's rude. That is really rude.
	Because you say, hey man, I leave room if I'm wrong, but I'm so right, I'm just going to pour it anyway without hearing any feedback.
	Like, you can't have that both ways, right?
	If you say, well, it's possible that I could be wrong, then you can't finish the argument by pouring the oil.
	Right. However, we did have that same oil discussion like three weeks ago.
	No argument. Well, but you didn't finish it.
	And you didn't finish it because you didn't get to the principles behind it.
	Like arguments repeat until you deal with them at the level they're operating on.
	Because obviously, you know, it's not about oil.
	It's not about grease.
	It's not about blockage or anything like that.
	So the reason why the argument continues is you haven't gotten to the root of what the argument is about.
	You get to the root of what the argument is about.
	You know, you're set.
	The argument will literally never arise again.
	I can tell you this from, you know, 20 years marriage and friendships that have lasted the test of time.
	When you get to the root of the issue, boom, done.
	You never have to deal with it again.
	Now, it may show up other places, but generally the further down you go to get to the roots.
	So, it was an aggressive action for you to say, I'm right, I could be wrong, and then just pour it, right?
	Because pouring it ends...
	The debate, right? And does erase her perspective from the discussion.
	Is that right? Correct.
	Okay. All right. So what's the moment where you tilt your wrist and you feel this is, like, worth it?
	You know? Like, I'm going to get rid of this oil.
	Okay. It could cost me. It could cost me this relationship, but at least I won't have the oil in my hand anymore.
	Right? So there's a moment in your mind where, you know, you tilt the wrist and the grease goes down.
	And the tempers go up, right?
	So what's that moment where you tilt your wrist?
	What's going on for you there? At that moment?
	Because I remember it clearly.
	Not much. Not true.
	Not true. No, there's a lot going on there.
	But sorry, go ahead. As I did it, it was like, well, I'm right.
	So I do it. But kind of like a dispassionate one.
	And then afterwards with her reaction, then I get mad.
	So I remember that order very specifically.
	It wasn't like a screw you type of tilt.
	It was like, well, it's right.
	Or I'm making the decision.
	Or if it was, I remember discussing this.
	It was a subconscious...
	It was like a discussion, a subconscious thing.
	It's my place. It's my responsibility.
	It's my rules. I can do it.
	I remember that. But you're wrong. You're wrong about all of this.
	Sorry to be annoying. You're wrong, and not even a little bit.
	In a relationship, and in particular a husband and wife, boyfriend, girlfriend relationship, you cannot be right if the other person doesn't accept it.
	Right is not you and the grease.
	Right is you, the grease, and your girlfriend.
	If she doesn't accept that you're right, you're not right.
	You are not right. Now, I know, like as men, we're like, but according to the facts of reality and objects, but that's not what the issue is, right?
	You can't be right independent of her evaluation that you're right.
	If she doesn't know that you're right, you're not right.
	Because right is not something that you're just correcting in your head.
	Right, I'll give you an analogy, right?
	So, Let me just keep saying the word right until both our heads explode, right?
	Oh, do it again. Right!
	Left. So, let's say that you are a scout for an army, and the generals all think that the enemy is coming from the west.
	But you scout out and you come from the east.
	You find out that the enemy is coming from the east.
	And you come back and you tell the generals, the enemy is coming from the east.
	Right? And then there's some other scout who says, no, the enemy is coming from the West.
	Now, maybe that scout is delusional or drunk or hallucinating or an enemy spy or something, right?
	Now, you know the enemy is coming from the East.
	Some other scout says the enemy is coming from the West.
	You're not right if the generals don't believe you.
	Because if they don't believe you, then they will say, oh, the enemy's coming from the west, or the east, or whatever the hell I said, and they'll go and you'll lose the war, right?
	Now, if you lose the war and you get captured and killed, are you right?
	No, because right is what you can convince people of, not just what you hold in your head.
	Because as a dude, your relationship, and I completely understand this, it's mine too, but your relationship is to being right in the abstract empirical universe, right?
	But if you can't convince people that you're right, it's like the tree falling in the forest.
	If nobody hears it, does it make a sound?
	Well, obviously, it depends how you define sound.
	If sound is vibrations of the air, yes.
	If sound is someone hearing it, then no.
	If I had all of these great philosophical ideas, which I did and do, but I never tried to convince anyone of them, I never debated, I never wrote, I never published them, I never said anything, Am I a philosopher?
	Let's say I have some amazing song, some beautiful song that's even better than, I don't know, Yesterday or Fool's Overture or Bohemian Rhapsody, whatever you like, right?
	So let's say I have some beautiful song in my head.
	I never write it down.
	I never play it.
	I never record it. I never share it.
	Do I have a song?
	Now, the answer is, of course, it doesn't matter.
	It can't be verified.
	It has no impact on the world.
	In other words, what would be the difference between me having a great song that I never told anyone about and not having a great song?
	The answer would be there's no practical difference.
	If I don't get anyone else to hear the song, I don't put it out there in the world, I don't play it, I don't write it down, I don't sell it, whatever, right?
	Then not having the song is the exact same as having the song but not sharing it.
	Does that sort of make any sense?
	I'm not saying do you agree with me about the oil or the grease, but do you sort of understand what I mean when I say There's no functional difference.
	If I had all these great philosophical ideas, never told them to anyone, never wrote them down, and went to my grave with all of them, it would be completely unverifiable that I ever had them, and there would be absolutely no difference between me having these ideas and me not having these ideas.
	Does that make sense? Makes perfect sense.
	You've got a great product.
	Everybody has. At one point, everyone thought of, hey, wouldn't it be great to have Band-Aids for different colored skin?
	Whatever it is that everyone's got these ideas or these thoughts, right?
	If you never act on it, if you never tell anyone, or if you build the product and it sits in your basement and you never get it out there in the world, what's the difference between not having the product or having the product and never selling it?
	No difference, right? So what's the point of being right if you don't convince other people that you're right?
	And so when I say you're only right if your partner...
	If someone accepts that you're right, then your challenge is to find a way to convince her and not assume that you're only right with regards to reality.
	You also have to be right with regards to other people.
	Now, this is not, you know, they determine whether you're right or not.
	They own reality.
	You can't be right unless everyone agrees with you.
	But with someone that you love, if you can't convince them that you're right, you being right It's just causing more problems, as you see with these repetitive issues with the sync, right?
	You being right is just making the relationship bad.
	You being right is making the relationship wrong.
	You being right is causing fights.
	And how can being right make things wrong, make things bad?
	Because you think, as a dude, and I complain, I'm with you there, man.
	We think, well, I am objectively right.
	So you as a woman should look at this objective rightness of what I'm talking about, and you should accept that I'm objectively right.
	Why? Because you think she's a dude?
	She's not a dude. That's why you want to date her and marry her, and that's why you'll be able to have children together, because she's not you.
	So a woman will generally say, do I feel that it's right?
	Now, you can say, but that's not correct philosophically and epistemologically and metaphysically.
	Okay, so what?
	If she had a penis, you would be gay, right?
	So you want someone different from you.
	So she looks at, do I accept that you're right?
	Do I feel that you're right?
	Do I believe that you're right?
	And your job then is to convince her using facts, reason, evidence, whatever it is, persuasion, whatever.
	Your job is...
	To get her to understand that you're right.
	If you haven't done that, to a woman, you're not right.
	In fact, you're ignoring her, you're diminishing her, you're dismissing her.
	You know, I mean, there's lots of people in America who think that the 2020 election was not right.
	You know, there was like missing ballots and mail-in and And hinky stuff going on and counts and double counts and all that kind of stuff.
	And you can say, like, whatever your opinion is on that, the Democrats and the media and the pundits, they convince everyone that Joe Biden is the president.
	You say, ah, but they're a question.
	See, they're working on persuasion and you're just working on facts.
	And persuasion will generally win.
	Fewer facts but more persuasion will win over more facts but less persuasion.
	So you think, well, I'm just stating a fact.
	Like I say, the sun is shining, right?
	And somebody says, prove it to me.
	And I'm like, I don't know how to...
	Open your eyes! Do you see the big giant ball of fire?
	That's what I'm... Right? But for you, and this is, you know, old married guy, right?
	Just sort of passing along some wisdom here.
	If you can convince the woman that you're right on a regular basis, she will trust you.
	And that trust is because you have been right and you've taken the time to explain it to her.
	Not in a condescending way, right?
	So then she will gain trust with you.
	Now, you already trust yourself because you have all of that empirical experience with your father and the plumbing and the septic tank and apparently you're all just pouring gallons of goo down the sink every day and it all works out.
	But you need to find a way to transfer all of that experience that you have with your father to your girlfriend.
	And tilting your hand and pouring it down?
	Just not going to do it.
	How long did it take for you to gain the trust in me to have this call?
	Probably years, right?
	I had to win your trust by having reasonably decent advice or feedback on people who were challenging issues.
	You, of course, have more of a burden of trust than most of the callers that I have, in fact, the vast majority of them, because you have this particular secret, this legal secret.
	It took a long time for me to gain your trust to the point where you email me, want to have the conversation.
	And so, for your girlfriend, you've got to jump out of yourself and say, okay, she doesn't have my experience with my father.
	She doesn't know what I know.
	She hasn't had the experiences that I've had.
	I need to find a way to gain credibility with this woman that I love.
	Now, the exact wrong way to gain credibility with her is to ride roughshod over her perspectives and opinions and just pour it down the sink.
	Because then you're saying...
	I don't understand that you're coming from outside me without the history.
	So when I wrote universally preferable behavior, I started off the book saying the odds that a software entrepreneur with a master's degree in the history of philosophy has solved the problem of the ages with regards to secular morality is tiny.
	I completely understand the skepticism.
	I'm not the head of the philosophy department at Harvard.
	I'm not a world-renowned philosopher.
	I'm some guy with a podcast who started recording in his car.
	So that issue, just addressing the skepticism.
	Now, I know UPB is correct, but I also know that I have to deal with the credibility issue.
	So you can't be correct in a relationship if you can't convince the other person.
	It's like saying, well, I'm a great salesman, even though nobody buys from me.
	Well, the whole, I'm right about this product, it is good for people.
	Okay, but you're not selling it to anyone, so it's like you don't have the product at all.
	Being right about a product you can't sell?
	It's exactly the same as being completely wrong about the product.
	I hope this makes some kind of sense.
	I know this is a weird perspective for men and I know it's alien to me as well because I'm just like pointing at the sun saying, well, of course, it's sunny.
	You can see it.
	What do I need to say?
	And you're like – and then you feel diminished because you're like, hey, I got 10 years' experience pouring goop down drains and fixing drains and plumbing.
	And so you're diminishing me by saying that I'm wrong, right?
	In other words, she's not doing the work to convince you that she's right.
	You're not doing the work to convince her that you're right.
	And she experiences you just pouring the stuff down the sink as a complete erasure of her perspective.
	She's saying to you, you don't have enough credibility with me to the point where I will simply accept that What you say on face value, right?
	You know, it takes a long time.
	You guys only been... You've known each other two years.
	You've been an item for a year. It takes time to build.
	That's why you keep... That's why staying married is really cool, right?
	Because you get to keep expanding trust and know more about the person and respect their wisdom even more when they make good decisions and all of that.
	So you're early on in the relationship.
	If you're going to be together for another 50, 60 years, right?
	You're early on in the relationship.
	And she's saying to you, you have not transferred...
	Your knowledge to me to the point where I accept what you say as face value.
	If you say it won't clog, I will simply accept that it won't clog.
	If I say to my wife, I need a computer, she doesn't sit there and say, well, don't you have a bunch already?
	Come on. Because she knows that I try to reuse everything I've got.
	I don't like to buy things.
	I'm not a big spender. And so if I say I need a new computer...
	She will say, okay, right?
	So sometimes I'm not at home and I needed a computer with a second screen built into the keyboard, right?
	Because it's a lot easier to live stream when you've got two screens and I didn't want to hump a second screen around.
	So I sort of explained.
	She's like, you know, don't, I'm bored with the explanation already.
	Just get what you need to get, right?
	Because I've shown her over the years that I don't just sit there and buy, like, I knew a guy who was a music producer.
	And I remember talking once with his wife and she was going slowly and saying, Because he literally, he had converted a barn into a music studio, and he was just like, he had racks and racks and racks of stuff, which he barely used.
	Like, he would just go out and buy.
	And so when he wanted to buy some new piece of equipment for music production, she really was unhappy about that.
	Because I don't think that he had earned her trust and he also wouldn't, you know, he would buy stuff and barely use it or buy stuff and it wouldn't work out.
	He wouldn't return it or he'd buy stuff, he'd use it for a while and then wouldn't sell it to someone else.
	So they literally had a whole wall full of stuff of which he used maybe 5%, maybe 10% max, right?
	All this other stuff. I don't even want to think how much money he'd bought into that kind of stuff.
	But he hadn't, over the years, I think made the case that...
	She should trust him on what they can afford and what's useful and what's valuable, right?
	And so when I need to buy something for the show, right, I'll get it.
	And my wife trusts me completely on that.
	But that didn't happen the third date, right?
	That takes a while. So if you think that you're right when you are imposing your will on someone, Not gaining their trust through the slow buildup of credibility over time?
	I mean, if you had someone who was trying to sell you something, let's say you needed a car and you go to a salesman, and the salesman is trying to sell you something you don't think is right for you.
	And the salesman says, I know it's right for you.
	He hands you the keys and he grabs your wallet.
	What do you think? What would you do?
	Good point. What the heck?
	Get your hands out of my pocket, you creep!
	And you would leave and not come back, right?
	Now, if you had bought a car from the salesman every couple of years for the last 30 years and he was the same salesman, he knew exactly what you wanted, he said, oh man, this is the car for you.
	It's got your name on it, trust me.
	You'd be much more likely to say, take my money, right?
	Because he spills up credibility over the years.
	But if somebody tries to force credibility, which is what you're doing when you tilt that wrist, you pour the goo down the sink.
	If somebody tries to force credibility, it destroys credibility, which is why I'm saying you can't be right if your partner thinks you're wrong.
	Because the rightness needs to exist in her mind for it to be a positive thing in the relationship.
	I'm so sorry for the long speech, but it's a tough thing to explain, but I hope I did a decent job.
	You hit something that I... You explained it in a way that my subconscious hates so much, but it's like, there it is.
	That's what I do.
	I'm impatient when it comes to people trusting me.
	I'm glad to hear that entire perspective.
	I realize that that's been causing me problems quite a bit through my life.
	Oh, it's horrible. As men, when I first was beginning to think of this kind of stuff, I'm like, how dare anyone or even myself suggest that the rightness of what I say is dependent upon other people's perceptions, right?
	Because that's, you know, it's nuts, right?
	It feels kind of mental, but it's really, really important.
	And if you want a good relationship with your wife, with your girlfriend, the rightness has to be on them accepting that you're right.
	If the guy wants to sell you the car, you have to accept that that's the right car for you.
	He can't force it. Okay.
	I see. And we don't like that.
	And again, when we're out there cutting down a tree, the tree doesn't have to agree with us.
	You know what I mean? Yeah.
	So we're men. We used to, you know, I need to build a wall.
	You know, I don't sit there and say to the rock, do you agree to be part of a wall?
	Do I convince? Like, you just pick up the rock and you make...
	We cut down trees.
	We build houses. We mine things.
	We, like, we dam...
	We don't... But that's because we're dealing with stuff.
	And that's great. It's great for dealing with stuff.
	I'm 100% for dealing with stuff.
	You don't, you know... Although, again, if you're part of a team, you need to convince other people of your vision, right?
	And having a great vision that you can't convince other people of...
	Okay, I'm right, but so what?
	If I can't convince anyone, what does being right mean?
	It doesn't matter because I can't make it real.
	I can't make it real. I can't manifest it.
	I can't bring it into being. You know, like the Amish when they all have to get together to build, raise a barn or whatever it is, right?
	Okay, well, let's say you can't convince anyone to come raise the barn with you.
	A barn just lies on the ground, on its side, like in bits and pieces, right?
	Okay. And so, to get the barn, say, I need a barn.
	I'm right about needing a barn.
	But if you can't convince people to build the barn with you, you don't get a barn.
	And so, this dichotomy between men and women and between working with things and working with people...
	We're thing people, right?
	Men are thing people. Women are people people, right?
	And so you want to just say, look, I know I'm right.
	Get out of the way. And you'll see because it's not going to clog.
	Look, I'm going to put this thing in the sink and I'm going to pour the water in.
	Look, it's not clogging. Are you satisfied?
	And of course she's not.
	She's hurt. She's angry.
	She's upset. Because you've got to convince her.
	And you can only convince her by listening, by being patient, by explaining where you're coming from, by looking things up.
	Because if you take your time in the argument, you solve the argument.
	If you rush the argument by tilting your wrist and pouring the goo down the sink, the argument keeps returning.
	You know, you ever hear this thing, haste makes waste?
	Yes. Right. Or the old carpet, like measure three times, cut once.
	Yeah. Right? So if you're like, oh, I think that's, you know, I'm just going to eyeball it.
	I'm going to cut things.
	I'm going to weld things.
	I'm going to, it's like you end up with this.
	You know, we've all had this. You get some stupid cabinet thing or some desk you've got to assemble or some.
	I have one of these pneumatic chairs that goes up and down because I kind of like a standing chair.
	Yeah. And you know what happens.
	You get this big, thick instruction manual, right?
	This big, thick instruction manual.
	And as dudes, what do we do?
	I'll wing it. I hope the instructions are in Chinese.
	I appreciate the challenge.
	And so we just want to wing it.
	And you know what happens. You've got to pull it all out.
	You've got to get all the stuff together.
	You've got to get all the tools together.
	You've got to go slowly. Because everyone's done this, dudes in particular.
	You put something together, it's wrong, and you've got to undo it.
	And it just takes it three times as long.
	It's the same thing with arguments.
	You just tilt the wrist like, hey, man, argument's over.
	And guess what? Your argument's not over.
	In fact, you've just made your relationship a little bit worse, and you've guaranteed a future argument, not just in this area, but in every area that overlaps on it, if that makes sense.
	That does make sense. Wow.
	That touched on so many things I've been thinking of.
	I have a few, like, leftover thoughts while you were talking that were related to this situation.
	They feel like they need to be, like, They're like saboteur thoughts, and I want to just quickly discuss them.
	One was like, what happens if you can't convince her?
	What's the learned wisdom through that?
	And a second thing, more general, is what if you're dealing with a person who doesn't reason with you, who basically does this negative version that we're talking about, such as like, Like people forcing you to do something or a statist or something along those lines.
	Yeah, you mean what if you're dealing with you?
	Yeah, okay. What if she's dealing with you?
	No, that's fair, right? Because again, you think, oh, I'll just bypass this argument.
	It's like, no, you won't. So if you're dealing with someone you can't convince, that's an absolute statement.
	How do you know you can't convince them?
	So, let's say you're in a conflict about the sink and the goo, right?
	So, if you say, you make the case, right?
	And she says, no, I really don't want you to do that, right?
	Yeah. Don't do it.
	But don't let it go.
	Don't do it. And say, you know, hey, I am not...
	Super wed to pour in this grease down the sink.
	But what you do is you raise a very interesting question.
	How should we resolve these disputes?
	Look, I'm not going to fight with you over some sink goo.
	That would be diminishing us both.
	But it's a very interesting principle because obviously we're going to have disagreements that are much more important than sink goo over the course of our relationships.
	How do we resolve it? And then you have a great conversation Like, you comply with her requests because that shows that you're not trying to dominate her and you're not crazy because you don't want to get into a fight over goo, right?
	It doesn't matter whether it goes in the garbage or it goes in the sink.
	Like, it doesn't matter, right?
	So, you're saying, I'm not going to be irrationally attached to an unimportant thing in order to dominate you.
	But, so I'll just, yeah, okay, you don't want to pour it down.
	I'm totally happy to not pour it down.
	But, that's an interesting question.
	How are we going to resolve these disputes, which are healthy?
	You absolutely need to have disputes in a relationship because that's how you know you're not complying or you're not forcing someone to obey you and then they just resent you and it goes to hell down the road, right?
	So you need to have disagreements in a relationship.
	It's absolutely essential, right?
	And like science is saying we're all going to agree, right?
	Well, we all see what's going on these days with science.
	This consensus stuff is disastrous, right?
	So you say, hey, if you don't want me to pour it, no problem.
	I mean, that's fine. But, I mean...
	It's an interesting question. How are we going to resolve these disputes?
	Now, my impulse is, look, I've worked with this stuff for years.
	I know for an absolute, complete, and empirical fact, I've worked on probably 100 people's different plumbing.
	I've never seen it happen.
	So I have a lot of information, but that information doesn't mean that much if I can't transfer it to you.
	Because I don't want you to ever, ever agree with me just because.
	Now, if it's something I've gained credibility in over the years, maybe you can have trust in me or whatever.
	But if you don't agree with me, and you could say, oh, well, but I've got so much experience.
	It's like, well, she has her own history, her own experience.
	Maybe she had bad plumbing when she was growing up.
	It was really badly put together.
	And every time they put grease down the sink, it did clog me.
	Maybe. Maybe her father came from some bad plumbing island.
	Whatever, right? So she's got her own empirical experience, her own beliefs.
	Can I jump in on that? Yeah, yeah.
	We talked about that specifically.
	I knew that ahead of time.
	And the reason she does that was because her mom forced her to.
	So her mom said you've got to never pour things down the sink, right?
	Because I say so.
	Right, okay. So then, when she sees you doing it, you know what's happening, is that she is trying to protect you from her mother.
	How? Well, so if, imagine if this, your girlfriend, had stood over the sink with the grease, and a mom had said, do not pour that down the sink, and your mother had just done what, sorry, and your girlfriend had just done what you did, tilted her wrist and poured it down the sink, what would her mother have done?
	The same thing she did to me.
	Right. She would have got angry. She would have got upset.
	She would have got aggressive, right? So when she says, when she sees you, okay, let me sort of explain it in slightly more detail because this is a very common mechanic in a relationship.
	Okay. She did not believe her mother.
	In other words, her mother did not explain things to her.
	And so her mother simply used aggression to prevent your girlfriend from pouring grease down the sink.
	So what your girlfriend does when she's little is she internalizes that.
	And she says, whenever she has the impulse to put something down the sink, she activates her inner aggressive mother and says, don't.
	Right? Which makes sense, because she doesn't know if her mother's just about to come around the corner.
	She doesn't know if her mother's looking from the other side of the hallway.
	She doesn't know if her mother's outside glancing in.
	She doesn't know. She also doesn't know if her mother's right and she clogs the sink.
	Her mother's going to say, who put this grease down the sink?
	So she has to activate her inner mother, finger-wagging her, saying, do not put this down the sink.
	That's what happens. So when she has the impulse, she sees her own hand about to pour the grease down the sink.
	She activates her internal mother to prevent the aggression from her external mother.
	Does that make sense? That makes sense.
	So she doesn't put it down the sink. Okay. So now, you understand, once she's got that principle going in her mind, once she's got that principle going, Then she sees her hand about to pour, she activates her inner mother, prevents her hand from pouring it, puts it somewhere else so she doesn't get in trouble, right? So when she sees your hand about to do it, it's the same process.
	In other words, if she had a younger brother who was about to pour the goo down the sink and she thought her mom was around or that the little boy would get in trouble, what would she say to her younger brother?
	No, no, no. Don't put it down the sink.
	Put it in the bag. Yeah. Or something like that.
	She would. She would.
	Now, if her little brother would have poured anyway, she would inflict upon her little brother the same aggression that was inflicted upon her as a way to help him avoid their mother's aggression.
	Does that make sense? That makes sense.
	Jeez. So she is protecting you from aggression.
	I see it. Right.
	In the same way, let's say you knew there was some dog in the neighborhood that looked cute but bit, and she went up to go and pet the dog, what would you say?
	But bit? Like rabies?
	What do you mean? No, just bit.
	Just bit people. Not rabies, but just, you know.
	Sorry, I thought like a bite wound.
	No, no, no. Don't dog bites.
	Stop! Stop!
	Right? Stop! Back away from the dog slowly.
	He looks friendly, but he's a biter, right?
	So you would be aggressive with her.
	You might even raise your voice with her, but you understand that would be a gesture of protection.
	Oh, yeah. Okay. That was another point that was in my head, and you just explained it, where I get an incredible amount of emotion around areas where I need to be, like, listened for protection.
	I need to be listened to in a quick-time moment to protect them.
	That's a dude thing, right?
	You're a man. You want to protect and provide, right?
	Sorry, go ahead. That made perfect sense with the dog.
	Like, right there, I was being aggressive in order to protect.
	Right there. Right, so her mother is a little bit of a biter, right?
	I mean, she's a little bit aggressive, and she's just trying to protect you.
	She's just trying to protect you, and then you get all aggressive with her, and now she's got an aggressive mother in her head and an aggressive boyfriend in her kitchen.
	Yes. So then she's going to either comply or escalate.
	Now, because she's already activated her inner mother, compliance is not an option because her inner mother doesn't comply, doesn't bow down.
	So she's got to escalate.
	And you, of course, experience that she's just bossing you around and rejecting your experience and blah, blah, blah.
	In the same way that if she's about to pet the dog that bites and you tell her, whoa, whoa, stop!
	Back off! No, seriously, stop!
	You'd be like, hey, I'm just about to pet a dog.
	Why is he getting all psycho and bossy on me, right?
	And she might reach forward, which is what you did, to pet the dog.
	Now maybe, just maybe, the dog's in a good mood and the dog does not bite her, right?
	And then she says, well, the hell's the matter with you?
	You'd be like, no, no, no, it bites, right?
	It bites. Now, of course, if you've been married for 10 years and you've been right and you don't boss her around and you've got this whole process where you listen and reason with each other, then if...
	If you were to say to your wife, no, no, no, it's a biter.
	Stop, stop. It's a biter.
	Back off. Seriously.
	Please don't touch that dog.
	Okay, yeah. Nine times out of ten, he's fine, but he bites.
	Then she'd be like, thank you.
	She wouldn't feel humiliated.
	She wouldn't feel bossed around. She wouldn't feel diminished.
	She'd be like, thank you, but you've got to gain that credibility.
	Makes sense. How many other people do you call on the internet to talk about your most personal issues with?
	And how long did it take, right?
	How long did it take for you to be like, okay, fine.
	Fine. I'll call.
	I think I'll get some useful stuff or whatever.
	And, you know, it probably took 500 hours of listening to my show before it even popped up as a possibility.
	Probably, right? And that's fine.
	I've got no problem with that because you should be guarded about who you talk about your most personal issues with, right?
	Because, you know, somebody can really mess you up, right?
	If they've got bad intentions or whatever, right?
	That's right, yeah. So, you know, if it took that long for me to get credibility with you, you know, just be patient and recognize you've got to build.
	Here's the other thing, too. It takes a while in a relationship to figure out where the division of labor goes.
	Unfortunately, we've probably not with your cultural background, but maybe she's been raised like, well, men and women are kind of basically the same.
	You know, like how many times have you heard, well, we originally wrote this action hero part for a man, and then we decided to cast a woman, which is, you know, a little crazy when you think about it, right?
	It's like saying, well, you know, this fried green tomatoes movie or pretty woman, you know, pretty woman with the prostitute.
	And like we just decided to switch the gender.
	It's just like, well, the story is kind of particular to the gender, right?
	It'd be like switching all of the roles gender wise in like a Jane Austen novel.
	It's like, sorry, this doesn't work anymore.
	Sorry, it's not even close, right?
	So we're kind of used to like...
	There's a lot of overlap.
	One of the ways that friction is really created in relationships is this pretense that men and women are basically the same.
	That's why I'm trying to point out that you've got to get your male brain to learn to enjoy and appreciate the female brain, just as she's got to learn and appreciate the male brain.
	We're told that we're all the same and therefore we can't divide any labor.
	We can't say, well, listen, you're better at a particular kind of thing.
	The traditional breakdown of labor in the house The woman does stuff inside and the man does stuff in the yard, right?
	The man mows, he builds the sheds, he maintains the garage, he maintains the cars, back in the day where you could maintain cars.
	They weren't so complicated and computer-y now.
	The man rakes the leaves and he cuts down the trees.
	The man does stuff outside the house and the woman does stuff inside the house.
	That's generally the way that it works out.
	There's lots of good reasons for that to do with physical strength and spatial reasoning and all that kind of stuff.
	For you guys, you have to figure out where is the division of labor.
	If you know more about plumbing, Then you should handle anything to do with plumbing, right?
	If she knows more about whatever, I mean, could be anything.
	She knows more about making sure the dishes are clean, right?
	She's really, really good at that. Or she knows more about how to plan meals and what to cook for and what's, you know, you need someone with a really good brain to just We're good to go.
	I completely forgot we have this.
	And I'm like, I do feel like tapioca or whatever, right?
	I mean, and so if you've got a girlfriend or a wife who's really good at keeping all of this stuff, all of these balls in the air, oh, what needs to be got from the grocery store?
	What's running out? What's going to expire?
	What do we need to cook? What's in the freezer?
	You know, just keeping everything going.
	That's a hell of a skill.
	I don't have it. I don't have it, by the way.
	But I mean, I have other skills, but not that for sure.
	And so figuring out the division of labor is really important.
	But for that, you have to embrace the differences, right?
	And what she's good at, she has to gain credibility with you.
	And then what you're good at, you have to gain credibility with her.
	And after a certain amount of time, you can just relax and let the other person do their thing.
	And the division of labor makes things really, really efficient.
	It's one of the reasons why they say behind every great man is a good woman.
	And I'm sure the vice versa is true.
	and the reason why he could be a great man is the woman is handling whatever the things is the The reason she could be a great woman is because the man's handling whatever.
	So you can, you know, in terms of providing, like how you're going to provide, you know, the legal stuff and all that we can talk about in a sec, but as far as just the division of labor, one of the reasons marriage break down is that everybody's trying to do everybody else's job.
	There's no division of labor.
	It'd be like if you had a corporation or you had a company and everyone had to do everything.
	Everybody had to be great at marketing and sales and computer programming and tax planning and financial management.
	If everybody was just overlapping, the accountants were wandering in to do some computer programming and then the tax lawyers were out there trying to sell products, nothing would work and everybody would get completely frustrated and we'd go to business in about 12 seconds.
	It's the same thing in a relationship.
	If you're not allowing the productivity of the division of labor to occur, You're just stepping on each other's toes all the time, and there's a lot of friction.
	And people get frustrated because, you know, you're better at some things, she's better at some things, and you should just damn well let that happen so you can reap the rewards.
	So, yeah, sorry, that's the last bit about that.
	And if you wanted to talk more about that stuff, I'm certainly happy to.
	But I guess the other question is the more tricky one, like around the legal status and all.
	About the division of labor one, I had some thoughts because we both have odd backgrounds to traditional gender roles.
	Like with the division of labor, first off, both of us are like, yeah, we totally support traditional gender roles, but we don't really come from an example that's great.
	She had a mother who actually did everything, like the company with the sales marketing.
	She literally did everything and did it to an extent that was quite good at everything.
	Like housework, making money, investing, cooking, like taking care of the kids, like everything.
	And to a quite competent degree.
	So she's used to that as a standard for a woman, being able to do everything.
	And it's quite important in her head.
	Though she understands like, wait a second, that was too much because of the situation.
	Let's readjust the gender roles.
	Woman takes care of the kids, takes care of the household.
	So she's aware of it, but experienced the can-do-everything upbringing.
	And for me, I didn't have much room to develop the provision skills, the more masculine roles.
	And I love cooking.
	So I tend to be the one cooking, doing the housework, doing the yard work.
	And she does the yard work too.
	So it's like we overlap in so many things that it's like, okay, Well, hang on.
	It doesn't sound like you overlap too much.
	If she's doing more of the financial productivity things and you're doing more of the house things, then there's not that much overlap there, if I understand correctly.
	Not at the moment there, because neither of us are providing for each other whatsoever, if that makes sense.
	We don't live together.
	No one's paying for each other.
	In the relationship, at least, there's no financial category yet.
	We did that quite intentionally.
	Tell me a little bit about the conflicts that arise about money.
	I find that that's the source of everything.
	It's like, why am I always stressed out?
	I need to work really hard on money.
	How are you going to provide for the kids?
	I don't know. Money. How are we going to travel in the ways that we want to?
	How come we don't go out and have fun?
	Almost all of them are centered around, if I had enough money, it would be solved, in my opinion, in my perspective.
	Does that make sense? Does she have good earning or earning potential?
	She has an extremely high earning potential and she comes from a very wealthy family as well.
	Right. So then your challenge is hypergamy.
	So if she loves you to death and you get along super well and you have the same values and so on, she comes from money, she's got good earning potential, then you can be a house husband, you can stay home and raise the kids.
	She obviously would need to be home for a while for breastfeeding and all of that, but if she's very competent at money handling, then she can handle all of that, right?
	So as far as the financial issues go, and again, we've got to recognize the hypergamy side of things.
	But from a financial angle, she can support you guys, right?
	We've been over this explicitly with her, talking about these exact same things, including hypergamy, including her understanding and agreeing with it, where she does not want me to be the househusband.
	She does not want to marry the househusband.
	Does that make sense?
	Was her dad a big owner?
	Yes. - Right.
	Larger than her mom, who is also a huge earner.
	So what is she doing, man?
	If she's saying you have to be a big earner and she knows your illegal status, oh, so if she marries you, then you get the legal status and then you can get a regular economic career going.
	That's the idea? That's the idea, yes.
	And how does she feel about that plan?
	She's extremely worried.
	For good reason. Yeah, yeah.
	No, I get it. You're a bit of a shot in the dark, so to speak, right?
	Yeah, she's aware of it.
	I'm aware of it. We talk about it all the time.
	Yeah. Right. So then, what is she doing?
	Like, we've got to understand what's going on for her, right?
	Why has she chosen a guy that goes directly against her core values in terms of what she wants a man to bring to the table?
	This specifically is because she views her ability to earn very highly as a great backup for her if things go wrong like husband dying or...
	No, come on. You get insurance for that.
	I told her about that too.
	She's smart enough to know that, right?
	Plus it's her passion too.
	She genuinely doesn't want to do this work as a provisional career.
	But she wants the ability to do it, and it's a medical profession that's quite specialized.
	And she's smart as a whip on it.
	How pretty are you?
	Me? We're both pretty pretty, but not like crazy.
	Not in the 9 out of 10, 10 out of 10.
	8 out of 10? I've heard that, sure.
	Are you... I mean, let's just be frank here, right?
	I mean... Is she going to be able to accept you as a house husband as a possibility you'll be a house husband?
	Will she be able to marry you with that?
	It's such a giant settle in her eyes that I would say, yeah, it's so big.
	It's not a deal breaker, but it's really big and I can tell it'll be resentment.
	Why has she put herself in this impossible situation?
	That's a big question.
	That's a huge question because she knew your status as you said.
	You were very clear about that as I asked you.
	The first question I asked you was, does your girlfriend know your legal situation?
	You said, oh yeah, it's one of the first things I told her.
	You reiterated that when you talked about how you met at the economics conference.
	Good for you. Honest. She knew going into this before she pair bonded, before she got attached, before you all had crazy monkey sex and you got the pharonyms going and all of that.
	She knew All of this.
	So then the question is, why?
	Why is she okay or actually has actively pursued the situation?
	Now, if you're some, you know, complete, you know, rock-abbed stud muffin or whatever, right?
	Okay, then maybe she could have been bowled over by your looks.
	But, you know, you're good-looking.
	She's good-looking. But it's not like you're Fabio.
	I don't know, whatever the modern equivalent is.
	You know, something these days, right?
	Yeah. I have gorgeous flowing long hair, but no, it wasn't looks.
	It's not looks. Okay.
	So, what is she doing?
	What is going on for her?
	And now, we could just say love, but if it was love, she wouldn't have all of this panic about getting married, right?
	I talked to her about this specific question.
	She picked me Because I am exactly the good man she's looking for in terms of virtue.
	That's not enough. Because if it was enough, she wouldn't be anxious.
	She said that. No, I know.
	But empirically, she's freaking out about your capacity to provide.
	So she may have a split, right?
	She may say, oh, yes, you match all the values that I want, blah, blah, blah.
	But, you know, she's still a woman and she wants someone to provide, right?
	Exactly. Okay, so then, given that she – was she unaware of the fact that women like to marry up or that women like a man to provide?
	Does she have no idea? And her dad's a big provider, right?
	So she must have some idea that women like men who provide because that's what her dad does, right?
	She totally knows and is open about that, yeah.
	Okay, so she knows about it.
	Why? Why is she choosing a man?
	See, here's the thing.
	And you're in such a unique situation because she can really torture herself with this, right?
	You're a smart guy.
	You know into philosophy, economics, self-knowledge.
	I'm getting this in the conversation, man.
	You're just picking things up really quickly and more power to you.
	That's great. So if she had picked a guy who was legal but couldn't provide...
	Then she wouldn't have picked you, right?
	Because it'd be like, I'm sorry, this guy's just a bit of a bummer.
	He's a bit lazy. He's just unambitious.
	Whatever, right? That's a really good point, yeah.
	Or if you were able to make money already and that was a proven situation whether legal or not, like in a legal situation or not.
	I don't mean illegally making the money but making money as an illegal alien.
	If she had proof that you could make money, then she could say, if I marry this guy, he becomes legal.
	I know he can make money. Soul torture is the inevitable thing, which is like, oh man, I don't know.
	Is it that he doesn't make much money because he's illegal, in which case I marry him and the problem is solved, so to speak, or because he's just not able to make much money, in which case I marry him and now we're tied in.
	That exact scenario that you just described, I'm struggling with too.
	Right. So you've both backed yourself into kind of an impossible corner here.
	And then the question is, why?
	Because this was incredibly predictable from the very beginning, right?
	Very beginning. So why are you all sleepwalking into this kind of mess?
	Now, I don't mean by mess that you guys break up.
	I have no idea, right? But what I'm saying is that this as an issue was blindingly obvious from like, you said you knew each other for a year before you dated, right?
	Yeah. And you told her in that year, right?
	Like within the first few days of meeting her, yeah.
	Okay, so she had a year before she dated you where she knew that this was going to be the catastrophic issue, right?
	Yes. As did you.
	And you went ahead anyway.
	Yeah. Why?
	Why? And again, I'm not saying you shouldn't, but if you don't know why, it's going to be impossible to resolve.
	I remember us discussing this.
	It was in the area of me.
	I just knew she was great to marry.
	I just knew it. So I was like, okay, do whatever it takes.
	But you're wrong! Wait, what do you mean?
	You're wrong! Wait, what do you mean?
	She's not great to marry at the moment because she's got massive doubts about marrying you.
	Okay. Am I wrong?
	She has massive doubts about marrying you, right?
	Yes, in the money department.
	Okay. That's kind of one of the definitions, right?
	It's like saying, well, she wants to marry me, but we completely disagree about having kids.
	It's like, well, that's a pretty good thing, right?
	No, hold on. Hold on.
	I want to make that distinction because if I look at her as an individual for me, she's great.
	Absolutely. No.
	You can't peel these things apart.
	You can't? No, you can't.
	As far as a marriage partner goes, if she's tortured about marrying you, there's no person independent of that.
	You're trying to slice and dice her up like Hannibal Lecter here.
	She's a great person.
	She'd be wonderful to marry, except for the fact that she's tortured about me marrying you, but that's not an asterisk.
	That's not a footnote. That's core.
	She'd be great to marry, except that she really, really is ambivalent about marrying me.
	Well, those two things can't be separated.
	It's like, no, I don't have enough money to do it.
	Right, I get that.
	I get that. And you can't get enough money to solve her issues before you get married, right?
	That's the test she's given me.
	Why did you both end up in a situation where she has to take a leap of faith, as do you, with no proof, and it tortures her?
	It's a challenge, Patrick.
	Prove it. Make money, even in this situation.
	Well, so why is she putting you in an impossible situation?
	Why is she putting herself and you...
	Why did you both pursue this impossible situation?
	That's the question. And you understand, answering that question doesn't mean you break up, as far as I can tell.
	But if you don't know why...
	Okay, I understand why you'd be drawn to an impossible situation, because that's your whole legal situation, right?
	It's my whole damn life. Your whole life is an impossible situation.
	You're like, hey, what's one more? Right?
	Yeah, basically. Okay.
	What that's why I that's why I didn't ask what you're doing.
	What's she doing?
	Why is she putting herself in an impossible situation?
	And the answer to that lies in her family.
	I don't know what the answer to that is.
	And maybe you don't either.
	But the answer to that lies in her family.
	And if you cannot resolve why she put herself in this impossible situation, why she met a guy who couldn't make money and couldn't prove that he could make money and said, well, I can't get married to you until you can prove that you can make money.
	Why does she put you in this impossible situation?
	Why did she put herself in this impossible situation?
	That's what you need to know.
	That's right at the essence of the relationship.
	If you can resolve, if you can understand that, then you can either move past it, get married, or you can break up.
	But that's the question. Why has she put herself, and you, now you, you're used to these impossible situations, which I sympathize, but why is she doing it?
	Why has she put herself in this situation when she knew, long before she even dated you, that this is exactly where this was going to lead?
	It's like the guy who dates the woman who's got like nose rings and piercings and blue hair and needle marks up her arm, right?
	And then he puts himself in a situation where he's trapped in this underworld of dysfunctional people and he knew her for a year before he even asked her out.
	Well, you'd say, okay, look, you put yourself in this situation.
	The signs were totally clear.
	And a lot of people say that with no sympathy.
	I say that with sympathy. I say that with sympathy for her, for you, even for the guy who dated the drug addict, blue-haired crazy lady.
	I have sympathy, right?
	Because obviously he didn't know what he was doing.
	There was unconscious stuff, family stuff, history stuff, or whatever, right?
	But the first thing to recognize is, yeah, she put herself in this impossible situation.
	And now she's railing against it.
	She's stressed by it. So she's got some kind of Simon the Boxer thing, some repetition compulsion thing that's going on here.
	What is her impossible situation in her life?
	What is her impossible situation in her history or in her family or in her parents?
	She grew up with impossible situations and she's doing it with you again.
	What comes to mind in my head is very early on, She gave me a warning, an insecurity she had about herself.
	And it struck me.
	She said, I have problems with commitment.
	I remember her saying that.
	And then I looked for evidence of it.
	And I saw it nowhere in her personal life.
	The amount of commitment she has to do things that...
	You saw it the moment you started...
	I know that for a year you were friends, but there was obviously romantic interest there.
	You saw it the moment she wanted to date you.
	That she put herself in a situation where she couldn't commit.
	The moment she asked you out with this impossible standard, you've got to prove to me that you can make money in a situation where you can't make money.
	That's her problem with commitment right there.
	Okay. She'll make a so-called commitment to something that can't be satisfied?
	She will commit and then not commit.
	She commits to being your girlfriend, which you want to get married.
	She can't commit to being your wife because she has a standard you can't possibly satisfy.
	But she's not breaking up with you, just tortured.
	I guess both of us view it as you can satisfy it if you try hard enough.
	But I remember her own words.
	When we were talking about what's the root cause of all of our stresses and struggles in this relationship, my answer was money.
	Her answer was your proof of what you're passionate about.
	That comes back to another big question.
	Do you marry someone with the expectation of change?
	The answer to that, of course, is no.
	She said no. But then she can't say, I expect you to prove that you can make money.
	I expect to prove that you can have a passion.
	If she doesn't accept you for who you are, right?
	That's like you saying, look, you could get married, and yes, you may turn out that you can't find your groove in life for a while.
	It might take you a while to get going or whatever, right?
	You've got a lot of trauma of economic exclusion and alienation and not feeling at home in your own land or whatever.
	There's a lot of stuff to work through. I sympathize with that, but She also might be infertile.
	You don't know, right? No.
	Yeah, so men have this, you know, we married the women and maybe they have big fertility issues, right?
	And then we got to go spend $50,000 on IVF treatments or whatever, right?
	So, yeah, there's some risk involved.
	You know, hello. There's risk involved in relationships.
	You don't know for sure. So if she doesn't trust you to the point where she knows that you're going to work hard to try and provide, then I don't know what she's doing.
	I don't know what she's doing. I mean, does she trust you?
	Okay, but trust is in the absence of proof, right?
	It's like saying, I want both proof and faith.
	It's like, well, no, faith is belief in the absence of proof, sometimes counted as proof.
	So, does she trust you, that you want to provide, that you want to work hard, that you want to make money, whatever, right?
	Okay, but if she trusts you, And she can marry you.
	If she doesn't trust you, then expecting you to prove it is simply saying, well, if I have doubts, you'll dance like a monkey.
	And that gives her way too much power.
	That's not healthy. That feels like it at the moment.
	It's a power play, right? Dance, monkey, dance, and then I'll give you my approval.
	And once she's got that sweet power, then she'll just withhold approval for the next thing, and you'll dance, monkey, dance, and, you know, that whole thing, right?
	Mm-hmm. Now, I can tell you, just based upon what you've told me, what the issue is with her family.
	Her family are very keen on you and keen on your relationship, right?
	Not in the money aspect.
	No, but I mean, they're not warning her off you, right?
	Saying, yeah, she seems like a great guy, but come on.
	We know you. We know that you're going to need proof of his capacity.
	Like, you're torturing the poor boy, right?
	Because, you know, you've got to prove that he can make...
	You want him to prove that he can make money in a situation where he can't.
	So, they heard about your status, your legal status, very early on, right?
	Long before you guys were dating.
	So, what they should have said is, look, he's a smart guy, he's a nice guy, he's a good-looking boy, but you just make sure, make sure you keep this platonic.
	Yeah, that wasn't there. That wasn't there.
	Then you guys start dating, and what did they do?
	What do you mean? Nothing?
	Well, did they say, oh, no, no, no.
	Absolutely not. They can't forbid, right?
	She's an adult. I get all of that.
	But, you know, families have a hell of a lot of influence, right?
	Yeah. It's quite approval, and I'm with them like a bunch.
	Right, right. So are they protecting her heart?
	Are they protecting her future?
	Are they protecting her from this situation?
	No. Where's the love?
	Okay. Where's the love?
	Okay. Because now she's in deep, she's embedded, and she's lost two years of her fertility window, right?
	And if it breaks up, it'll be heartbreaking.
	It'll take her another six months to a year to get over it, right?
	Okay. And then it'll take her a while to start finding someone else she can trust.
	So she's, you know, this whole process, they could burn up half a decade of her 20-year fertility window, right?
	25% of her fertility could be burned up Because they're not sitting in there intervening and saying, okay, listen, we're older, we're wiser, and you guys are young and in love and it's beautiful and we don't want to say that that's a bad thing, but there are some pretty practical elements.
	You're not in the country legally.
	And that's going to be a challenge because she's used to a certain style of income.
	She's got a dad who makes this much money, blah, blah, blah, you know, go on and on.
	And just say, look, the practicality is you say to the girlfriend, if I was her father, I'd say to her, can you marry this boy without proof of his income potential?
	Can you? Now, I know you like to find the things in life, young lady, because you've grown up with them.
	I know that I, as a model, am an income owner.
	Again, smart boy, nice boy, good-looking boy, respectful boy, well-spoken boy, smart, you know, listens to free domain, obviously he's a total catch, right?
	But there's this hurdle.
	Because the question I would ask my daughter privately, not in front of you, but the question I would ask my daughter privately is this.
	Can you do better? Can you get a guy who's in the country legally?
	I mean, come on, you know that would make things so much easier and simpler, right?
	Can you do that? Now, she might say, I know that the illegal thing is a drag.
	My God, don't get me wrong, but I don't think I can do better than this guy.
	In which case, it's like, okay, then you have to accept him for who he is, and you can't demand that he provide the impossible.
	Proof of earning prior to legalization.
	If he is the guy, if he's got so many positive qualities that you're willing to step over this big giant canyon of illegality, then he's the guy.
	But you cannot say, he's the guy, but I demand that he prove the impossible before I marry him.
	That's just cruel. You're just going to break your heart.
	You're going to break his heart. You're going to waste years' time, agony, sleepless nights.
	Don't do that.
	Now, her family have kind of just let both of you sleepwalk into this quagmire, this quicksand, this mess.
	And you're young people who have older people around you, your parents as well, who should be looking the hell out for you and not let you end up in these kinds of situations.
	Everything, this is a big secret.
	I didn't learn this until my 30s, so you're way ahead of the curve here, I think.
	Nothing bad happens in your life except what people let happen.
	Nothing bad happens in your life except what people around you let happen.
	Right? You guys are in this situation.
	Because your mother, your father, your friends, your siblings, her family, her extended family, everyone has let it happen, has encouraged it to happen.
	You are not alone in this mess.
	This mess has been carefully shepherded forward by everyone in your vicinity and allowed to come into being.
	Go ahead. I want to make one input, only her family, not mine.
	Why, your family said this is a bad idea?
	No, they're out of my life completely.
	Okay. All right. So only her family.
	But you have friends, right? Also, no.
	Oh, no friends? Because of the move that I needed to do in order for this relationship to happen.
	Okay. All right. So, fair.
	Her family. Right?
	Her family should have been looking out for her.
	Now, again, looking out for her doesn't mean, my God, dump this guy or whatever.
	But looking out for her is like, no, I care for you as my child, as my daughter.
	I care for you too much.
	To have you end up in this kind of impossible situation.
	Sorry, go ahead. I can immediately tell what her parents would tell her based on what they did themselves and their stylings.
	I can already tell.
	Her parents, both very top-of-the-line professionals, they got married late.
	Around the time that you and your wife did and had three kids with no issues.
	And so I think they're just like, well, yeah, don't worry about it.
	You got time. And that's the type of advice that they would give.
	Well, that's bad advice.
	That's bad advice.
	That's bad advice. I agree.
	Yeah. So then they may be looking upon you as like a placeholder or something like, oh, you know, if it works out great, if not, she's got time, that kind of stuff, right?
	Oh, absolutely. Right.
	Right. So if you don't have the full marry the boy commitment of the family, that's going to trouble you, right?
	Because you need them as the backup to say, no, you can't ask this man for the impossible.
	You love him enough. Just get married, right?
	If you don't have them backing you up, then you're going to end up resenting them, right?
	They have a strange laissez-faire attitude.
	I can see what they do, what they speak of, and their strong commitment to how they want their kids to be.
	They don't want input on who their children pick.
	They don't want to have input on who their children pick.
	Yes, they trust their kids to just pick.
	I remember this explicitly, and I found it very strange.
	I'm sorry to interrupt you, but they have no empirical basis for doing that.
	Because when they were their children's age, they were picking badly.
	As you said, they got married later in life.
	So when they were their daughter's age, they were picking badly.
	Because they didn't get married until they were in their 30s, right?
	So all the relationships they had prior to getting married were relationships that failed.
	They didn't view it that way.
	No, but it's true.
	I mean, unless they went into relationships with the specific, you know, like you meet some woman on a tropical island and you have a weekend fling with seven condoms and a bodysuit or whatever, right?
	That's their family. So they just basically slept around in their 20s?
	No, the way that they view relationships, I found this so strange.
	It was like when I got into society, are you kidding me?
	They have this strange view of dating is no big deal.
	Having a relationship is no big deal.
	When you find one to marry, you marry them.
	But you don't have to. There's no failure in a relationship unless they're a bad person.
	Right. Okay. They taught...
	Except their daughter wants to get married or is thinking about it, right?
	But not quickly.
	So when are you guys thinking of getting married?
	If you do. This is a thought process.
	Because of her schooling, she has at least a few more years.
	Oh, you're killing me, man.
	What are you doing? Yeah. You're killing me.
	Do you know why you're killing me? Why?
	So you chose a woman who can't get married until five years after you meet her at the least, right?
	Yeah. And your currently only path to citizenship is a woman who can marry you quickly.
	You're killing me.
	I'm aware. So you both now put yourself, this is your impossible situation then, writ large, right?
	That's my impossible situation, yeah.
	Right. Right.
	Now, they know that you are desperate to get married quicker, right?
	I'm sure you've shared with them that it's your only real path to citizenship, right?
	Thank you.
	Yeah, and they're kind of just like...
	They don't seem to get that.
	They didn't seem to understand what that meant.
	Okay, so do they care about you as a human being?
	Doesn't feel like deeply, no.
	Doesn't even feel like shallowly.
	If they let you get involved with a woman who can't marry you...
	For half a decade after she meets you when you're desperate to get married quickly.
	No, but she won't, right?
	I mean, it's not likely. That's the thing.
	It's in the category of not likely, and all of her family members and her see not likely as possible and reasonable.
	I've noticed that in the way that they think and reason.
	So they are not taking into account your time frame, your timeline, right?
	Absolutely not. That's a complete, I don't care.
	So, if five years after you meet this woman, maybe, just maybe, you could get married, then you've got another three years of, what, circling the drain, treading water, waiting to see, unable to prove your economic fitness, whatever, right?
	Right. Waiting, waiting, waiting.
	And maybe, you know, maybe then she meets a guy who's legal.
	She has no complications.
	No paperwork. And he can prove his income.
	Whether we like it or not, a clock starts ticking in our hearts because that's how we evolved.
	We weren't evolved to just date and have relationships and break up and postpone.
	We were evolved to, you meet a woman, you meet her a couple of times, you go on a couple of dates, you find out if she's the right woman, you get married within a couple of months and you start having kids within a year of meeting.
	That's the way it goes.
	That's how we evolve.
	Now, I get that we didn't evolve to live in houses with air conditioning, but that doesn't mean we have to sweat on a beach all day.
	So I get that we can make some adjustments, but that's still the fundamental mechanism that we're working with, right?
	Yeah. So, from what I've seen, it's not any kind of universal absolute, but from what I've seen, people who stretch out the dating stuff forever, it generally doesn't work yet.
	Because our bodies are...
	Hearts are pair-bonding mechanisms and so on.
	Just don't gel with that timeline.
	You guys, I don't know, maybe be living together for a bit or just go on and on and you're not committed, you're not married, you're not having kids and it's just kind of stretching out this eternal dating boyfriend-girlfriend stuff.
	It doesn't generally tend to work out.
	Again, there's no hard and fast rule.
	It's just what I've seen.
	And it generally is around the five-year mark that things really begin to go tits-up if they're going to go that way because...
	Your body is just like, nope.
	If we don't have kids yet, we've got to find somebody else because the body is there to make new bodies, right?
	That's what the whole thing is.
	And her family grew up with that slow style of relationships that you're talking about.
	Sure. And so then, maybe in three years, she graduates or whatever, and then what?
	She's going to want to start her career, right?
	No, I gave it a deadline for myself.
	It's like, if there's no marriage after that, I'm out.
	Oh, but then you burned up half a decade.
	What are you crazy? I honestly don't mind with this one.
	I invite you to mind.
	You don't have... You can't...
	You don't...
	Almost like you don't have the right to burn up half a decade.
	So she's going to want to start a career, right?
	Yeah. And it's a challenging field, a competitive field, you see a medical field or whatever.
	So how long is it going to be when she's getting her career going and enjoying all the perks and pay and paying off her student loans and traveling for business or whatever?
	How long is it going to be before she's going to say, yeah, I think I'm ready to have kids?
	No loans, no traveling.
	It'll be a stay-at-home position.
	Alright. You are very confident of where the economy is going to be in three years, but I'm not going to argue with you because I don't even know what the field is and don't tell me.
	It's annoying, yeah. That's fine, that's fine.
	Okay, so is she going to want to have kids in five years from now?
	Seven years from now? Probably not right when she graduates, right?
	I'll ask her again.
	Her thought was right after school.
	I know. I'm like, what are you thinking, girl?
	I'm so glad that we train all of these women to not be in the workforce.
	And continuing to work from home.
	And I'm like, what are you doing?
	You have a couple of kids, and let's see how that working from home thing goes, right?
	It's usually at the expense of the kids.
	That's the thing.
	She grew up where that worked.
	And so she trusts herself because her mom did it.
	You know? Well...
	Okay, but how well did her mom do it, if this is where she's at in life?
	Genuinely well, but in this instance...
	I would question that.
	I would not assume that.
	If she's bringing her inner mom to you and aggressing against you for pouring something down a sink, I would have some questions.
	Just questions.
	You don't have to answer them, but I'm just saying don't assume that her parenting was just great.
	I do too, and I want to explain this a little further because it was a...
	And learning from you for all these years and hearing the conversations and dealing with my own parents and my own upbringing, I was incredibly skeptical of her upbringing and how well she said it was.
	And I dug into it, I looked and I'm like, okay, it's not, it's not like, how to put it, good as we would describe it, you and I, Stefan, but like, It's the best I've encountered in real life.
	No, that's fantastic, and I'm not going to argue with you about that.
	However, the empathy for you is lacking.
	Because they're not sitting there saying, this has got to be a tortuous existence for you that hangs upon our daughter saying yes to a wedding ring.
	I guess they're just like, what do you mean?
	Just figure it out.
	Well, but you are in an entirely different situation from them at your age, right?
	Where's the curiosity?
	Where's the empathy? If you love each other, if you want this guy to prove his bona fides as an income earner, There's none of that.
	Right. It's all laissez-faire is fine when you're a citizen and have a green card.
	It's a different situation, right?
	It's a different situation. And that's where, you know, you know me.
	I mean, I got super high standards for these kinds of things.
	But this isn't even a super high standard.
	This is like, okay, this poor young man is kind of hanging for a wedding ring here because he can't get his life started without it.
	And she doesn't want to get married for years and years.
	And, you know, like, God, what's he going to...
	Like, where's the care and concern for you and your heart and your life and your future?
	I don't know if they know.
	My girlfriend knows.
	Yeah, of course.
	She's probably told them.
	So if they know, and I'm sure if they don't know, that's not good because it means that your girlfriend is keeping secrets from them, which are actually pretty important secrets.
	But if they know, then they know that you are without parental supervision or feedback, in which case, you know, they should probably try and step up a little bit and help things But, I mean, people say laissez-faire.
	It could also just be great Gatsby-style carelessness, if that makes any sense.
	There's a chance that's that, yeah.
	I've noticed...
	It's a phenomenon that occurs recently when I'm with her family.
	I feel this strange lack of depth...
	Like, my God, I want to talk about all these deep things, and there needs to be stuff talked about, but it's just not being talked about.
	I have that feeling, and I had that feeling for the entire time I've met every one of her family members.
	I remember this on the tour of the family.
	It struck me so strongly.
	It's like, why aren't they asking me tough questions?
	Where's the pushback?
	I was like, I had to ask women from her dad.
	I don't want to get all Marxist on you, but they sound kind of privileged, right?
	right?
	I mean, wealthy, successful, they probably come from a long line of fairly wealthy and successful people.
	And the one thing about multi-generational money or privilege or status or whatever, it just, it hollows people out, you know, and like it or not, you and I know from the dungeons of despair and problems comes depth and wisdom and curiosity, right?
	So a lot of the, I mean, it's the Kardashian issue, right?
	Like, I mean, which is like, okay, you've now had money for quite a few generations and you're all about as deep as a Barbie doll, right?
	Maybe.
	It was weird because it was half and half.
	Dad came from money. Mom didn't.
	Mom made it. Herself.
	Right. Well, so listen, I mean, I can't help you with the legal thing.
	But I would say that you need to, you know, I don't tell people what to do.
	Obviously, you know that. But I would suggest, you know, like the way that I would approach it is, you've got to figure out why you're in this impossible situation.
	What's going on unconsciously?
	That you are now in a no-win situation.
	Now, when I say no-win, again, I'm not saying break up.
	I have no idea, right? But what I'm saying is that you want something, but you can't possibly achieve it.
	And you both put yourself into the mechanics where you can't get what you want.
	She can't get certainty.
	You can't get status.
	Right? So... You need to sit across from a table and just like unpack that.
	We knew this. We knew this going in that we're tortured by this.
	What is going on? And that's going to be a deep conversation.
	And out of that, you will get resolution.
	I believe you will get resolution.
	And I hope the resolution is that you guys work it out and can move forward more rapidly or get what you want more easily or deal with the impossibility and unravel it or whatever.
	Or maybe you can't.
	I hope you can. It sounds to me like you've certainly got the skills to give it a good old shot.
	But I think that's the big question.
	Why, oh why, oh why are you...
	And her in this impossible situation.
	Because these things don't happen by accident.
	You weren't thrown together in prison, right?
	You consciously took, step by step, for over a year of knowing each other, over a year of dating, step by step, you took this path, right?
	I was clawed my way.
	Yeah, and there's really great wisdom in learning this.
	And you need to figure this out.
	Sooner rather than later.
	Because if you can't commit, your body's at some point...
	You understand that pair bonding is like a deep biochemical thing that happens, right?
	It's like a deep... I know this from ducks, right?
	Because I got these ducks. My daughter got these ducks recently.
	And they imprint upon us and they follow us everywhere.
	And it's the most adorable thing you can imagine, right?
	But it's a biochemical printing.
	You know, ducks will imprint on an orange balloon if that's the first thing they see when they get out of the egg, right?
	So the pair bonding is like a deep, mysterious, we know something about it but not everything, biochemical endorphin and happy hormone-based soup that is way beyond our conscious control.
	And we pair bond for children.
	So pair bonding is like these tentacles just reaching out looking for kids.
	That's a horrible image.
	It's like something out of call or something.
	The tentacles who are trying to get the kids.
	So our pair bonding is not about you and the girl.
	It's not about sex.
	It's about the kids. And so your pair bonding is like kids, kids, kids.
	And you can say, no, no, no, but it's love and values and philosophy.
	It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but kids, kids, kids, kids.
	And if you don't get the kids, what happens is, evolutionarily speaking, your pair bonding will dry up and start looking for someone new because your pair bonding doesn't care about how much you have compatibility to values and blah, blah, blah. You understand that if the pair bonding survives the lack of children, the absence of children, then it wouldn't survive, evolutionarily speaking.
	The pair bonding that Seeks new partners in the absence of children is the one that survived, right?
	And so I believe, I can't prove it, but I believe in general, the more you postpone the kids, the more your pair bonding is like, well, there's nothing here.
	Let's pack up shop and go find something else, right?
	And so I don't know that if you just postpone and postpone, even outside of the legal stuff, In general, I think if you postpone and postpone, pair bonding dries up, you get annoyed with each other, and then your pair bonding, you know what happens after four or five years of people who aren't...
	Having kids yet and aren't really getting much done, what happens is someone else comes along who's new and exciting and fresh and it doesn't feel stale and it doesn't feel old and it doesn't feel kind of futile and pointless and repetitive and then your pair bonding is just like, aha!
	Then you've got the whole problem of like, well, I've been with this person forever but I've really got feelings for a new person.
	I don't want to cheat. But I think that's generally the way that I've seen it play out.
	And it's a situation that I would strongly warn anybody on the planet to try and avoid if possible.
	So I think have the conversation about why this impossible situation.
	And I'm sure you can get to the root of that, and I think that will really help things move forward, hopefully in the way that you want.
	But if not, at least you avoid the You know, the half decade slow death and guilt and heartbreak.
	And then, you know, can you really trust a new person if you've pair bonded for five years and then it didn't work out?
	How long does it take for you to trust a new person?
	It's a whole lot tougher, right?
	So that's my sort of thoughts, if that helps.
	I have a quick question on that important conversation coming up because I can immediately expect an obstacle that I won't know how to solve.
	Yeah. We're put in an impossible situation, and her immediate response will be, what are you talking about?
	It's not an impossible situation.
	You can do it. I know you can.
	Oh, okay. So let's roleplay that.
	So then I would say, okay, well then if you know I can, it's not an impossible situation, let's get married.
	But I don't know that you actually can.
	You haven't shown me that you can do it to what our kids need.
	Okay, so you understand, my dear, that you just completely contradicted yourself without even noticing it literally in the space of about eight seconds.
	And I'm not saying this is a big criticism.
	I'm just saying it's a little crazy, right?
	Because you said, I know you can do it.
	And I said, okay, well, if you know I can do it, let's get married.
	And then you say, well, I don't know that you can do it.
	Did you notice that? No, that's why you're here.
	That's why I'm a girlfriend with you because I don't know if you can provide for that yet.
	No, but let's just back up for a second here.
	I'm not trying to call you bad or criticize you or anything, but you do understand.
	You said, I know you can do it.
	And immediately afterwards when I said, well, let's get married then, you said, I don't know that you can do it.
	That's what I mean by the impossible situation.
	You just manifested it.
	And now I'm even more confused because you said, what impossible situation?
	I know you can do it.
	I don't know that you can do it.
	So we've got three things now.
	I say it's an impossible situation.
	You say, I have no idea what you're talking about.
	And then you immediately give me an impossible situation, right?
	And again, I'm not criticizing.
	I'm just saying that that's really bewildering, if that makes sense, right?
	I don't know what you mean.
	But to jump into me real quick, there's also a chance she'll say, and her reasoning is, you've proven that you can survive as an illegal immigrant and overcome all these obstacles.
	And survive and provide for yourself.
	But I'm not looking for that.
	I want someone who earns this amount of stuff for our lifestyle.
	And you have no proof of being able to do that.
	And I'm giving you this time to be able to do that.
	No, but here's the thing. My love, here's the thing.
	With all of the affection that I have for you, all of the love that I have for you, the impossible situation is you knew that this was the case.
	Before we even started dating.
	And again, this is not a criticism.
	I'm very happy that we're dating.
	And I'm getting to this question, why are we putting ourselves, why do we put ourselves in this impossible situation?
	I didn't hide from you that I was here illegally.
	You knew that it was impossible for me to rev up a career while the legal status is the way that it is.
	No, it's not impossible.
	But you say that without being in my shoes.
	I am a hustler.
	I've worked hard. I've worked very hard and I have had some success.
	But come on, you can't possibly know what it's like to be in my shoes.
	You've been legal here your whole life.
	You've been able to be a public member of society.
	Please, you know, you've got to have the empathy for me to understand at least that I have a very different experience of this country and this economy and this legal system than you do.
	And if you're going to tell me that I'm wrong about my lived experience of a quarter century or more, that seems a little arrogant, if you don't mind me saying so, and a little unempathetic, like I am the one who's actually had to live it.
	Do you know what I mean? Again, I don't say this with any hostility, but if I were to tell you what it's like to be a woman, you'd be like, I'm not sure that you really could speak better than me about it.
	And that's sort of the same thing with my experience, if that makes sense.
	I know it's really hard for you.
	I can't sympathize with that fully because it's a situation I don't quite understand, but I've seen what impact it has on you.
	I know it's really hard, but I really think you can do it.
	Good. Okay, then we're back to where we started, which is you think I can do it, so then we get married, right?
	But then if you say, as soon as they say, let's get married, you say, but I don't know that you can do it, you haven't proven it, then this is the impossible situation that I'm talking about.
	And again, I'm saying let's talk about this impossible situation We both came into this with the support of your family.
	We both ended up in this situation that anybody with half a brain could have told us at the very beginning, look, this is where you're going to end up, man.
	If you need him to provide, he can't prove it because he's got this legal status.
	If he can only prove it by getting married to you, but you won't get married to him until he can prove it, that's called an impossible situation.
	And we knew this both walking in.
	And I'm not blaming you. I'm not blaming me.
	We have a challenge. All couples have their challenges.
	This is our particular challenge.
	What was going on that we walked into the situation where we love each other, we have a great life, we get along, we have great conversations, sex life is great, but we have this torture right in the core that was totally obvious from the very beginning.
	And my particular philosophy is that if something is really obvious and people go ahead and do it anyway, Part of them has a need for that.
	And that's my question. I don't know. I mean, we can talk about this back and forth.
	I don't know the answer, certainly to yours.
	I don't really even know the answer to mine.
	But, you know, an outside observer would look at this and say, well, this issue was completely predictable from the first time that you met each other.
	So why did you pursue it?
	And again, when I say why did you pursue it, I don't mean we shouldn't have pursued it.
	I mean, we could have a wonderful life together.
	But as far as this being a foundational issue, we both walked into this Eyes wide open.
	And I guess the question is why?
	I don't know. I don't know either, but isn't it fascinating?
	Because this is a life thing.
	This isn't a you and I thing. This is a life thing.
	I was born into an impossible situation.
	And I walked into it with you.
	Because let's say I had decided to date somebody else who was an illegal immigrant.
	I wouldn't have this issue. Let's say you had dated somebody who wasn't a legal immigrant.
	You wouldn't have this issue. So we both chose this impossible situation.
	And so anyway, from there, I don't know, role-playing her would be kind of tough if I'm asking about things that you don't know.
	What she knows. But it would be like, okay, have you ever had this before?
	Have you been in impossible situations before?
	Did you ever see your parents in impossible situations?
	So, you know, it would be that kind of stuff where you just kind of explore about what is her relationship to this kind of self-torture of impossibility.
	And that, I think, is where things go.
	Sorry, go ahead. And it's so important, like, out of the room.
	She doesn't see things as impossible situations.
	Come on, but you understand in that roleplay, like boom, boom, boom, three things within about 15 seconds.
	And this ties back into the sink thing.
	I have no doubt it does.
	Because this is clogged up too, right?
	There's a reason why we use a clogged up metaphor for this whole thing, right?
	Anyway, go ahead. She doesn't see it.
	Her perspective is not impossible.
	So that's your persuasion challenge, right?
	Your persuasion challenge is, well, it is.
	Because, I mean, she said, there's no impossible situation.
	And then she said, I believe you can do it.
	And then she said, I don't believe you can do it.
	So you just have to try and get those cross wires together for her, right?
	That's just a persuasion thing.
	If you have to diagram it out, if you have like, whatever, right?
	Now, if she simply refuses to see the impossible situation, all that means is that her seeing an impossible situation will be somehow against her family's immediate self-interest, and she's programmed to avoid it.
	And I don't know. I mean, that's a challenge, right?
	Maybe she can call in or whatever, right?
	But if she simply refuses to see it, it means that her inner parents usually simply don't want her to see it because it would be negative for them.
	All right. I think there's a lot in the work on the persuasion part that I can put a lot more effort into.
	And that also comes a bit from my upbringing too and a few of my insecurities where it's just like, just trust me.
	But like that forcing the trust thing.
	Yeah, yeah, I got it. And do you want to hear the really meta thing that I'm doing here?
	Just so you know how it's the struts, the artistry I'm bringing to bear on this swordplay.
	Do you know the meta that I'm doing here?
	Are you persuading me?
	No, it's even better than that.
	If I can persuade you that persuasion is good, you learning how to persuade people is the biggest chance for economic success you will ever have in your life.
	Oh my god. See what I'm doing here?
	See the layers, the levels that I'm working on here?
	I'm like Kramer with his levels or like 3D chess, n-dimensional chess, right?
	This is why persuasion stuff, I mean Scott Adams talks about it a lot too, right?
	But this is why the persuasion stuff is so important.
	Because if you can persuade people, and I don't mean to throw themselves off a bridge or drink Kool-Aid, but if you can persuade people...
	I want that level. Don't have that level.
	But if you can persuade people...
	That is the biggest chance for economic success that you will ever have in this life is persuasion.
	And you want to practice in your personal relationships first.
	I mean, I tried to persuade everyone 20 years ago that I was going to have a great philosophy show and it was going to be a really big thing and it's going to change the world and blah, blah, blah, right?
	Okay. That's why I'm giving it to you now.
	Early, you work on that persuasion with her and you learn how to persuade someone who's resistant to self-knowledge than persuading someone to follow you in a business idea or buy a product or it's going to be easy peasy, nice and easy.
	That's actually the key, I think.
	And it goes into my past kind of funny.
	Since like 2016, I've been like a...
	This will tie into the money thing, too, that I have a little bit of irritation on it.
	I've been like a Bitcoin evangelist.
	So, trying to convince people about it.
	And she doesn't think you can provide?
	She doesn't get it. Holy shitballs, Batman.
	What are her standards? Do you actually have to literally bring her to the moon?
	Oh, okay. I heard there's an asteroid out there with like a trillion dollars worth of diamonds in it.
	You bring that to me, and we'll talk about getting to the altar.
	Yeah, and do it in two years.
	I think you're going to get that done. Yeah, in two years, while not being legal to go on a spaceship.
	Yeah, you can do it. It's just, yeah, I mean, there's encouragement, and then there's just paralyzing people with impossibilities, so...
	So that's what I wanted to get across again.
	I obviously can't talk about the legal stuff, but is that a useful place to start or a helpful flyby of maybe places to approach the issue with?
	Some really important ones, both practical and ones I didn't notice.
	So that's fantastic.
	Great. Will you keep me posted about how it's going?
	Absolutely, and I'll see if I can persuade her to go on as well.
	Oh yeah, I'd be happy to chat with her as well.
	I think it'd be fascinating. Okay, well listen, I appreciate it.
	I've got to go get something to eat, but great chat, and I look forward to hearing from you again.
	Thank you so much, Stefan. Have a good night.
	Hi, Stefan. Hello, hello.
	How's it going? It is going super well.
	Is it? Is it really?
	Is that where we're starting?
	It's going super well, but that's why we're having this call?
	Particularly. Listen, I appreciate the optimism.
	Hopefully it's going super well after we have the chat.
	Right now, as far as I understand it, things are a little tricky.
	Is that fair to say? Yes.
	In the relationship department, very, very tricky there.
	The rest of the life, though, pretty good, which is a problem.
	Yes. No, I get that.
	Well, I guess at least you know what to focus on.
	So yeah, very nice to meet you.
	And do you listen to the show at all?
	Is this like completely out of the blue for you?
	Pretty out of the blue for me, yeah.
	Dude. So your boyfriend is like, hey, talk to this guy on the internet.
	It's going to be great. And you're like, okay.
	Well, yeah. I appreciate the trust.
	I promise you it'll be enjoyable and productive and you'll find the time well spent.
	But I appreciate that.
	Not your trust in me. You don't even know me, right?
	But your trust in your boyfriend. I appreciate that.
	So I'm glad that you've had that.
	Is he with you or is he around?
	See, I sort of asked him that I could do it privately just so I feel more comfortable being absolutely completely honest without second thought.
	You know what I mean? So we could just trash him.
	That's the goal, right? Oh, not at all.
	Oh, no? Oh, okay.
	Well, then I'll change my entire approach.
	Okay, okay. Did he tell you about the stuff we talked about when he and I talked?
	Absolutely. I listened to the episode.
	Uh-huh. Ah, okay, okay.
	And what did you think?
	Quite enlightening. There was...
	The few things that I'm really, really glad y'all figured out, like the whole thing about that he can't just expect trust completely, but it has to be built over time.
	That was, I think, a big thing that y'all found.
	Another thing that struck me as very interesting is the whole inner mom thing.
	That's something I've actually been struggling with for quite a while, that I want to kind of get rid of or get under control or understand, you know what I mean?
	So that was an interesting thing.
	I've had a little bit of that too, if there's any consolation.
	It's around, it's around.
	I guess, and there were also a few things that didn't seem quite accurate to me.
	I have absolutely no doubt about that.
	That there were inaccuracies in our conversation.
	Of course, right? I'm just sort of feeding my way through and he's speaking about you who isn't there, who doesn't get to respond.
	So there's no question.
	And I'm happy to get those corrected and get that sort of straight.
	So I guess where we start is what's going on with you guys at the moment?
	Well, I mean, that's a hard question.
	Kind of a hard question.
	Today was a very good day.
	I mean, we were very open about his conversation with you.
	I'm glad y'all had that discussion because we're sort of at a point where we need to figure out what's wrong because we are happy people in general.
	We are, you know what I mean?
	And for us both to be pretty miserable in a relationship is not right.
	So we're both kind of at, like, we need to figure this out or make a move.
	You know what I mean? Oh, I do.
	Yeah, no, I mean, almost like before you get married, like almost every day is make or break, right?
	Are we going forward? Are we not going forward?
	And so on. So, okay, why don't we start with something a little easier?
	Because, you know, deep end jumping can be a bit tricky.
	Tell me a bit about your history with the relationship, how you met, what you thought, why you went out, and what's kept you going?
	So I met him at an economics conference, like he said.
	It's kind of funny because, I mean...
	I'm always looking for a long-term partner.
	You know what I mean? I'm always on the lookout.
	That's my goal. And I had heard a few sentences spoken about him, and I knew immediately I wanted to get to know him.
	And we started talking in that first week, and immediately I knew we were going to be friends forever or more.
	You know what I mean? So that year we just Became closer and closer friends.
	And eventually, very early on, he asked if he could move to my state and if we could date.
	And I was like, that's crazy talk.
	Absolutely not. But then by the one more year pass and there I am saying, yes, please move to my state.
	And he did. But that wasn't because you were with anyone else at the time.
	Is that right? Oh, no, I was not with anyone.
	Okay. Sorry, just checking. Yes.
	And then dating for a year.
	But it's been pretty rocky.
	You mean the year that you've been dating?
	So you were friends for a year and a half.
	Sorry, how long have you been dating again?
	Another year. Just a year now.
	Yeah, so tell me about the pluses and the minuses.
	I mean, obviously, rocky implies that there's good things to keep you there.
	So what's the good and bad?
	Well, absolutely.
	There's a lot of good.
	There's, I mean...
	He's an incredible person, very, very principled and fun.
	I mean, we love going on trips together.
	There's a lot of good there, but there's also more bad than I could have possibly imagined as well, which very much confused me because in my typical relationships, I'm almost always happy.
	And in this one, I'm not, which doesn't make sense because on paper, we are perfect for each other.
	You know what I mean? I don't.
	I mean, I know what the words mean, but I don't know what they mean to you.
	So, you know, here's the thing.
	So, I think you'll keep waiting for me to interrupt.
	I'm a listening guy. So, honestly, you can just speak to your heart's content.
	I'll just absorb like a sponge.
	So, I'm not going to keep asking you.
	I mean, I can if you want. But, you know, the highs and lows, just talk.
	I'm paying rapt attention.
	I'll interrupt if I need anything else.
	But I just want to soak it up at the beginning if that's all right.
	No problem. Okay, so, like, in my very first relationship, which lasted around nine months, I was happy for, I would say, 90 to 95% of days.
	Like, very happy. We never raised voices.
	Never even had big spats.
	Never, like, no arguments.
	You know what I mean? So this is kind of like my expectations for relationships.
	It's just to be happy most days and...
	No arguments, except for the occasional one, which are usually kind of enjoyable to work through.
	You know, I like working through problems.
	But then with this relationship with my new partner, it's like...
	Do you want to just call him Bob?
	That's just for now. Bob?
	Yeah, yeah. Let's call him Bob.
	So with Bob, I would say that I'm happy a lot less.
	Like, I mean, even in like the...
	20% of days, I've got that level of happiness.
	But then the rest, there's just all this negativity, and I can go into that if you want me to.
	Well, I want to know the big picture if you can, and obviously this sounds like an important part, so I'm happy to hear.
	Okay, well, I would say that the negativity...
	It's centered around the fact that he is an illegal.
	You know what I mean? There's so much seriousness there that it's hard for me to deal with that level of down all the time.
	Not that I don't want a serious relationship.
	Not like that at all.
	I'm in it 100%.
	I'm looking for a lifelong partner.
	But If it's always, if I don't laugh every day, you know what I mean?
	If I'm not laughing and having fun, it's very difficult for me because the rest of my life is responsibility and things like that.
	And I kind of look, in a relationship, I want Well, you're not a social worker, right?
	I mean, you're not assigned to help someone in their life.
	There has to be positivity and enjoyment in the relationship.
	Otherwise, it feels a little bit like you're just tied to someone who's kind of half-drowning forever.
	Exactly. But the thing is that he is half-drowning.
	That is the definition of life as an illegal.
	It's so difficult for him and so stressful every single day that I can't help but also feel that stress.
	And I don't Like, I don't deal with that well.
	So that makes me feel that weight, too.
	And it makes the relationship just feel so much more stressful, you know?
	Well, it's more than a feeling, right?
	Yeah. You know, it's more than a feeling.
	It's not a made-up thing, you know?
	Like, it is stressful. It is stressful.
	I mean, and... So, is a large proportion of the negativity associated with, I mean, not just this legal status, but I mean, I guess how it's perceived and dealt with, is that most of the negative that's going on?
	Well, okay, so I would say the most of the negative going on is that we aren't having as much fun as I think we should, or we aren't laughing very much.
	You know what I mean? There isn't that.
	But part of what's most difficult is that of that indecision of I don't know what he would be like if he were in a normal situation, if he didn't have all this weight on his shoulders, if he didn't feel so constrained, if he, in his career and in his life and freedom-wise and all that, he can't even speak freely about himself, you know?
	So I'm stuck in this spot where I don't even know what he would be like if he had papers.
	You know what I mean? Yeah, of course.
	I mean, you've never known him with papers, right?
	Exactly. That's so different from dating anyone else, because with anyone else, they are who they are going to be, because there isn't this enormous hurdle.
	You can kind of say, okay, this person's going to be like this forever, pretty much, with little variation.
	But with him, there's going to be a big change once he gets papers, once he gets that freedom.
	So, will he stop being stressed?
	Will he start to be able to be more happy?
	Will there be more fun and laughter, which is kind of what I need, you know what I mean?
	Right, right. Once the money stressor's gone, is that going to change how he acts?
	And I think that's one of the biggest parts of the uncertainty in the relationship.
	How handsome is he?
	Well, I think he's very handsome, but not to the extent...
	Okay, give me a 1 to 10.
	Give me a 1 to 10 scale.
	I mean, probably...
	An eight? An eight? And where would you put yourself?
	You can't say seven because everybody says seven, but where would you put yourself on the scale?
	I know this sounds like a shallow, stupid question, but it actually does have a kind of relevance, which I'll explain in a sec.
	Probably the same.
	Maybe a nine if you take into account other things.
	I'm not sure. Well, I mean, you're very pretty, right?
	This is what he reported and all of that.
	And yeah, I mean, we'd all love to live in a planet where that didn't matter, but it does matter.
	It's kind of why... We evolved that way.
	So you put him as an 8, you'd put yourself as an 8 +, maybe a 9, right?
	Yes. Okay.
	With regards to his personality characteristics, I mean, obviously he's intelligent.
	I get that. And you talked about his integrity.
	What are the other pluses that have you willing to, at least for a year, shoulder this unbelievable burden of without paperness?
	He... He has such immense strength of character.
	I haven't seen it in anyone else.
	He's principled to his core.
	He loves life, which always has astounded me because life has not treated him super well.
	So the fact that he still has that capability and in such great amounts, more than most anyone I've met, is amazing to me.
	He's a phenomenal boyfriend, caring, generous, thoughtful, Kind.
	He loves... He's always calm.
	I think he's one of the people, like, if there's an issue, he'll walk through it slowly, logically.
	He doesn't raise his voice.
	Like, all of these things are things that I look for in a person.
	And I'm with 100% certainty know that he would be an amazing husband and father.
	So, like, isn't that...
	I mean, that's what people look for, right?
	I mean... So why would...
	I'm not saying that this is what you should do.
	I mean, as you know, I never tell people what to do.
	That would be nothing anyway.
	But if you are certain of these things to this degree, you could marry him and legalize him, right?
	Is that right? Yes, absolutely.
	But I can't go forward with that unless I feel like I'm happy with that decision and that I will make him happy.
	I would definitely not go ahead with that decision if I... There's a possibility of me making him unhappy in the future.
	Oh, you mean if the tensions, sorry to interrupt, but if the tensions that you have, which you're ascribing to a large degree to the illegality of his status, if the illegality of his status gets resolved, oh God, what if, you know, what if it's still, there's problems? Is that what I understand?
	Yeah, what if I'm still unhappy most days with him?
	Wait, wait, wait, wait, hang on, sorry, back up for a sec.
	Because you talked about making him happy.
	Right. So making him happy, it's great that you think about that.
	And then you say, well, what if I'm not happy?
	And we just need to slice and dice those two things apart, right?
	Because making him happy is one thing.
	Making yourself happy or whether you'll be happy is another, right?
	Because if he has these wonderful qualities, right, we can use sort of a plus or minus, right?
	So let's say as far as integrity goes, he sounds like a 10, like the best you've seen or the best that you could conceive of, at least in your life experience.
	Is that too far or is that somewhat right?
	Yes. If it's not right, I'm perfectly willing to be corrected.
	I'm very hesitant to call anyone a 10 out of 10 in anything, right?
	I mean, there's... Okay, nine and a half, but he's high, right?
	He's very high. Yes, very. Okay, so he's nine and a half, and that's obviously a big plus.
	What is the negative of the illegality or the stress or whatever?
	Now, let's just assume that, you know, whatever – what percentage of your stress do you think comes from him being illegal?
	I know that that's a tough thing to quantify, but just give me a rough guess.
	Out of my stress currently in my life?
	Out of your stress between you and the negativity in the relationship?
	I would – well, see, that's a difficult question to answer because I don't know how much of the negativity I'm feeling is because of that.
	I know, that's just a rough.
	I mean, if it's 1% versus 99%, I mean, I know that we can't get this down to a fine art, but what does your gut say about that?
	My gut says 50.
	Like, 50% of that stress is because he can't do exactly what he wants to do.
	He's not free to do those things, but it kind of feels like 50% of it is also like we just don't I don't know if that's just because of illegal status or if that's more personality, more integral.
	Oh, no. Listen, the surgery that you have to do to separate the man from his circumstances is really tricky.
	It's really tricky, and I really sympathize with that.
	I mean, it's a very, very tough situation.
	It's like somebody who you meet and they're ill with something, right?
	And they have issues, but they'll get better, right?
	And you can't marry someone into getting better, but you could marry into changing this guy's status or whatever.
	So yeah, it's a really tricky situation.
	Okay, so 50% of the stress in the relationship or the negative in the relationship, it's your gut.
	I know it's not a final answer. 50%, give or take, is about his legal status.
	Now, what percentage of your time together would you characterize as not ideal?
	Like, you know, not the sort of happy-go-lucky, laughy stuff.
	What percentage of your time together is negative or neutral?
	I would say more on the neutral side.
	I would say neutral to negative.
	It's like 80%.
	It's really, really bad.
	Dear God! But it doesn't make sense.
	Like I said, on paper, it is perfect.
	But it's the papers that are the problem.
	On paper would be one thing.
	I'm sorry, I don't mean that. But the paper is the problem, right?
	So if half the time It's negative because of the legal situation.
	And 80%, so half of 80%, 40%.
	So 40% of the problems in your relationship are due to the papers, right?
	The illegality. Now, here's the problem, right?
	So let's say you solve that.
	Then you still have 40% negativity in the relationship, negative or neutral, right?
	And I don't know about your standards.
	My standards would be no.
	And so the general statistics, I'm sure you've heard of this kind of stuff.
	The general statistics tend to be, since we imprint on negative things more than we do on positive, just as, you know.
	I remember as a kid, I ate a banana once that had something bad or weird in it, and I didn't eat another banana for a year.
	And that's how we survive.
	You eat a fruit that's bad, you don't want to eat it again.
	It might kill you. So generally, just to remain equilibrium, you need seven good to one bad.
	Like if you have one bad weekend, you need seven good weekends just to break even.
	If you have one bad evening, you need a week of great evenings just to break even.
	And I think if I understand this rightly, this was kind of the proportion that you had with your other relationships, right?
	Mostly positive, a couple of negative things, but not enough to drag you down.
	So you've got like if a boat, right?
	A boat goes underwater if it takes on too much water.
	And so for this, you've got to bail out seven times more than what's coming in, right?
	In order to keep the boat afloat.
	Even if you're right about the 50%, taking the 80% down to 40%, I feel like we're selling a cow at fast pace here, but you still got 40% negativity.
	I don't think that's particularly sustainable because you need no more than 10% to 15% negativity, and even that just keeps things even.
	You want to keep it to 3% to 5% negativity in order to grow the relationship.
	The 10% to 15% is just treading water.
	40% Doesn't seem, again, according to the statistics and the data, and again, this is not an exact science, but even if you were to solve the illegality issue, you still have that 40%, which doesn't seem to me particularly sustainable.
	But again, I mean, everybody has their different standards internally, but it sounds like you want more positivity.
	What if I'm just wrong about the numbers, though?
	What if it's just like those things go away and there's actually just so much more that I'm not noticing was because of that?
	You know what I mean? Well, okay, but then we're in the situation of what if I win the lottery, right?
	Yeah. I mean, so, you know, generally we make our best, you know, or some distant relative dies and leaves me a million dollars, you know?
	It's like, well, it could happen. Could it happen?
	Absolutely. But you've got to play the odds in life, right?
	And just pulling this, I won't say out of where, but pulling this, like, what if, you know?
	It's like, well, we can what if anything, right?
	What if I have a deadly disease, but I don't even know it and there's no symptoms?
	You know, like, I mean, we can what if ourselves into anything, right?
	You've got to work with the empirical numbers that you have in your gut, right?
	Yeah. See, here's the thing.
	Let's say that it's...
	It's half what you think it is, or you can say twice the negativity, in which case you go from 40% negative down to 20% negative.
	So even if we double the amount of negativity that comes from his legal status, Then we still...
	You still have 20... There's still one out of five.
	It doesn't even get to the one out of seven that you need to stay stable.
	Yeah. There is a kind of emotional math to these kinds of things, which is kind of what you talked about earlier with, you know, most like 90, 95% was positive.
	There'd be a couple of bits of friction, but it wouldn't usually be too bad and so on, right?
	So if the math doesn't get you to a place where you can have...
	The vast majority of your interaction is pleasant or positive, right?
	Now, neutral is, eh, you know, whatever.
	It's more neutral.
	It's more neutral.
	You know what I mean? We don't...
	It's not... I would say, like, 10% or something is, like...
	5% to 10% is actually negative.
	Like, it's emotionally draining for me.
	But most of it's just neutral.
	Like, not as happy as I want it to be.
	So it's... I wouldn't say, like, 50% is negative.
	It's more like 5% negative and the rest is just neutral where I'm just waiting to be happy, you know?
	Well, but neutral is negative, right?
	Because neutral is decaying, especially when you're trying to figure out a relationship.
	If you're trying to figure out a relationship, neutral is, in a sense, it's actually worse than somebody who sets fire to your house, right?
	Because somebody sets fire to your house and, you know, kicks your dog and you're like, dude, you're done.
	Get out, right? Yeah.
	But the neutral is actually, in a sense, worse.
	Then, like, something that's really negative, because really negative, you bounce out.
	Neutral, you're just kind of circling the drain, in a sense, right?
	So negative is kind of a decay, because the longer you're in relationship without committing it, the more tortuous it tends to be, and I think that's kind of where we are, if I understand it.
	Mm-hmm. Yeah.
	You're going to be using the royal we, like I'm not just talking about you.
	Okay. And when you were friends, did you get that same sense of heaviness or weight?
	Yeah. That's actually something that I wanted to talk to you about because I don't understand it myself.
	Whenever we were friends, and this is when we were in different states, we would occasionally be texting, and I remember thinking, this is one of my most frustrating friends.
	And I don't know why I thought that, but I do remember just experiencing frustration with him even just as friends.
	Okay, but you do know why.
	I mean, you may not know consciously, but you do know.
	Yeah, absolutely, you know deep down.
	Emotions always come from somewhere.
	They come from some perception, some thought.
	We're not... Like, if you have a pain in your arm, it comes from somewhere.
	Your arm isn't just having a ghost pain or something, right?
	And so, you may not know it consciously.
	Do you have any idea where you may...
	Was there any particular kind of messages or type of messages where you'd be like, argh, with him?
	I mean... Maybe the type of things we would talk about just all the time.
	You know, that's a hard question.
	Because I've been wondering this for a year.
	Was it repetitive topics that went nowhere?
	Or problems? The only thing that's come to mind is that a lot of times he wanted to talk about Sometimes these super, super, super deep topics that I had no answer for, you know what I mean?
	Like too broad, and I just didn't know how to get into it the way he did.
	Like meaning of life stuff?
	Oh no, don't get me wrong, I love talking about it too, but maybe not to the extent that he does.
	And maybe that was the problem.
	You mean a deep and dark Eastern European guy?
	I've never heard of this before.
	Next thing you know, we'll find a dour Russian.
	Anyway, or an organized German.
	Or a British person with bland food.
	Okay, so...
	Were there resolutions to the deeper?
	I mean, deep conversations are great unless they go in circles, in which case it's just getting started.
	Yeah, it was more circles without ever ending the discussion or something like that.
	Right, okay. And again, not too much laughter than either.
	More always serious discussions.
	And I think I'm starting to realize that I need that more than I think I do.
	The laughter or the discussions?
	It sounds like the laughter. The laughter.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I get it.
	I mean, look, the purpose of life is happiness, right?
	I mean, that's the one thing we get where we don't use it for something else.
	Like, we have a job to get money, we have money to buy things, we buy things to make us happy, and then happiness is where it ends.
	We're not happy to become something else or to do something else.
	So we've got to aim at that.
	And if we're not aiming at that, we're just not living that well.
	So yeah, I mean, deep topics for sure, but they've got to lead to happiness if they just lead to more deep topics and more misery and then it's like, no, no, pull up, pull up.
	Bad dive, bad dive. Okay, okay.
	How tall is he? 6'1".
	And you? I'm 5'3".
	Right. Do you like tall guys?
	Well, I mean, I've dated guys who are 5'8".
	Like I don't, I mostly care about brains and I'm big into nerds, don't really care about brawn or really good looks.
	I don't know. So he's actually better looking than my average partner.
	Are you willing to spend the rest of your life with a crick in your neck looking at two nostrils?
	That's my question. I have a short wife, so yeah.
	Okay, all right.
	So you found him a frustrating friend, although I get that there's a lot that you admire about him, but you did get warning signs, I guess you could say red flags, right, while you were friends?
	Yes. So what was it where...
	And you knew that he was interested in you the whole time.
	You said in the first week or two, he's like, I'm moving stage to be with you.
	And you're like, oh, me too moment.
	Give me a little space here, big guy.
	Don't make me wear a swimming ring to get a little personal space here.
	And so you said it was about a year, then he moved.
	And what was it that changed?
	Because, I mean, you had these warning signs and this frustration while you were friends or you were friends and he was like trying to become more than friends.
	And what was it that changed where you're like, yeah, come on over.
	Well, we met up multiple times over that year and always we had a great time.
	We have a great time whenever we're traveling because there's like no strings attached.
	You know what I mean? It's worry-free, responsibility-free.
	We're not in actual real life and it's great.
	We've had multiple trips like that.
	It's fantastic. Well, this is why long-distance relationships are so dangerous, right?
	Because you kind of get all wed to the good times, but without the practical times of the, you know, got to get to the dentist and my mom gets sick and, you know, all that stuff, right?
	You can't... It means nothing unless, like, it works in real life as well.
	But I guess, like you said, the thing that changed...
	I think this might be a little goofy, but...
	We were on this one trip to Colorado.
	We went on a road trip, which actually went really, really well.
	This is like the first time we really spent A whole week non-stop together.
	And that's kind of one of the ways that I... Wait, I'm sorry.
	Maybe I'm just old. Okay.
	What? Oh, man.
	Okay, so help me out with the young folks here, okay?
	I'm going to pull full, you know, like I'm going to be 55 this month.
	So forgive me for not knowing what's going on.
	I've been out of the dating scene since I got married like 20 years ago, right?
	Uh-huh. What the hell?
	What? What are you talking about?
	There's this guy who's really into you, who wants to date you, and you go on a week-long trip with him while you're friends?
	Uh... No. Oh, wait, wait.
	Okay, okay, wait. By this time, the week before that, we had decided that he was going to move.
	And then we went on this road trip to...
	At this point, it was like, yes, you can move here.
	And it was on the Colorado trip that we decided, okay, yes, we're a boyfriend-girlfriend.
	It kind of took a week and a half.
	You know what I mean? It wasn't immediate.
	And did you go on the – I'm sorry.
	I'm just – this process and nothing – I'm just – this just, again, could just be my, you know, different generation kind of thing.
	But to me, it's like you ask a woman on a road trip, were you sleeping in separate rooms?
	I mean, how did that play just in terms of the logistics?
	Yeah. You are sounding 55.
	I am. Listen, I am.
	And I'll complain about my joints because it's going to rain or something.
	But how did this work logistically?
	I mean, were you planning on staying in the same rooms?
	Or like, I'm just trying to figure this one out.
	Okay, well, let me try to explain more fully.
	So that entire year where we were like just friends, there were some physical aspects of it.
	So I guess it wasn't completely just friends.
	It was kind of like a, you know what I mean.
	So you had sex.
	Yeah, but I still considered us just friends.
	What? Well, I did go and eat in the restaurant, but I don't consider myself a customer.
	I mean, I don't expect to pay for anything.
	I was hungry. I figured it was like a buffet.
	It's like going to a friend's place. Okay, and again, this generational thing.
	So... Sorry about that.
	Sorry about that. Did I offend you?
	No, not at all.
	If this guy's grilling me about my sex life, I'm hanging up right now.
	No, not a chance.
	Okay, okay. Just check it.
	Okay, okay. Hold on just a sec here.
	Okay, so... Yes.
	And this is, you know, I don't want to use the coarse term F-buddies or whatever, right?
	But this is friends with benefits.
	This is, we like each other.
	We're not boyfriend-girlfriend. But we'll make the beast with two backs, as Shakespeare says.
	Like, we'll have sex, but it's not a relationship.
	Do I have that roughly right?
	Yeah. Yes, it just seemed like, okay, at first it was like, this is absolutely impossible.
	You know, I was more reasonable then.
	It was like, nothing can happen between us.
	Sorry, this is your reasonable part?
	This is the reasonable part of the story?
	Okay, I'm happy to hear it.
	The reasonable part is like, me believing that, okay, this actually couldn't happen.
	I can't see us ever working, so we might as well have a little fun and then move on, right?
	Because it's not possible.
	Because you look in the mirror and somehow you see a guy?
	Sorry. No, because of his status.
	Remember you were saying about earlier these conflicts that can be really productive and positive?
	This might be the one for you and I. Because as far as I understand it, I mean, the endorphins, the oxytocin, the bonding hormones that women release during sex, I don't know that women are quite as good at casual sex as men are.
	I mean, in terms of like, it's a much more vulnerable position, that's much more trust involved and so on, right?
	Yes.
	And men are a little bit more programmed for spray and pray as a reproductive strategy, whereas women, of course, have much more cost involved with pregnancy.
	Historically, right?
	I mean, before birth control and all that, right?
	Yes.
	So you're – and the reason I'm bringing this up is you kind of got yourself stuck in a difficult situation here.
	And I think it started when you started having sex because in my experience, and having talked with well over 1,000 people over the course of my show, a lot of women with some similar issues.
	Everyone's different with some similar issues.
	One of the things that kind of happens is women are like, yeah, we'll just have some fun.
	And what happens, though, is that women, bit by bit, you know, Follow their sexual activity into a committed state.
	And then what happens is because they made the decision based on just sexuality, and then they end up in a relationship, they get stuck and a little tortured.
	Whereas if they said at the beginning, okay, do I want a relationship with this guy?
	Yes or no. Like, am I willing to?
	He's illegal. You know, he's got lots of issues.
	I don't know what the solution is going to be.
	There's a politically uncertain situation with DACA and this, blah, blah.
	If you had said that at the beginning, right, or in other words, if you had known two years ago or a year and a half ago whenever you started having sex with the guy, if you had known that you were going to end up in this spot, you know, with like 80% neutral negative and not knowing and bonded and,
	you know, other guys that might have been slightly easier relationships have passed you by because you're in this kind of quicksand, if you had known two years ago or a year and a half ago That you would be where you are now, would you have had sex with him?
	I don't regret anything I've done, that's for sure.
	I don't regret knowing him more and having a relationship with him.
	And when we first did, when we were first together together, I did love him at that point.
	I don't go into things without loving them.
	Wait, sorry, when you started having sex with him, you had already fallen in love with him?
	Yes. I mean...
	Oh my God! This makes things even more confusing to me.
	It does. Which doesn't mean that they are confusing.
	I'm just telling you I'm confused.
	You know, I might just be a kid staring at a kaleidoscope going, whoa.
	So, I mean, right?
	So, you love him.
	You have sex with him.
	Or make love with him. You love him and you make love with him.
	But it's not a relationship.
	What, are you crazy? Well, see, I thought it wasn't even possible.
	You know what I mean? It was...
	It was inconceivable that he could actually move to my state.
	It was inconceivable to me that we could actually...
	What do you mean? That's the first thing he offered?
	What do you mean it was inconceivable?
	It seemed ridiculous.
	But it's what he offered.
	It's what he wanted. True, but I... I get what you're saying.
	It seems very drastic. Right?
	And it's a quarter million miles to get to you.
	Yeah, I'm with you there. Or if he's been captured by the Taliban, I get where you're coming from.
	But if the first thing he says is, I want to move to where you are, and then you're like, well, I mean, it's completely inconceivable that he could move where I am.
	It's like, not according to him.
	But I mean, in his situation where he...
	I mean, as an illegal, I would say that's a very difficult thing to do since he already had...
	Oh, so did you...
	Hang on a sec. So the fact that you felt he couldn't move to you, is that what helped you sort of, quote, fall in love with him or make love with him?
	Because that way...
	It couldn't progress. It was kind of contained, if that makes sense.
	Could you explain that further?
	Yeah, so...
	If he had said to you, look, we love each other, we're making love, we are boyfriend and girlfriend, or before, before you made love, right?
	If he had said to you, listen, if we make love, I'm moving to where you are, do you think you would have made love?
	Probably not, because I had told him in that same week that no...
	No, you can't move to where I am or I don't want you to?
	No, you can't.
	Not that I wouldn't want him to, but it was inconceivable to me.
	Oh, you can't physically or it's not possible?
	Or he shouldn't.
	I'm not sure. I'm not sure either because it's your brain and I'm not in there.
	So you'll have to tell me a little bit more because that's quite a complicated Mobius strip we got going on there as far as a decision wrinkled space-time continuum.
	So he wants to move to where you are and your perspective before you get together as a couple.
	I mean, I know it's like a permanent thing before you make love.
	Your perspective is about him moving there.
	Help me unpack that a bit.
	I'm kind of confused as to where I should start answering.
	It's strange to me that you touched on this issue because to me it didn't seem like this was where the issue lies.
	This is exactly why you're here.
	No, but this is exactly why you're in this situation.
	No, I'm telling you, this is exactly why you're in this situation.
	Because you got physically and emotionally and romantically involved with a man on the basis that he couldn't come to see you or be with you.
	So you let yourself fall for him because he couldn't become a boyfriend.
	You know what it's like?
	It's like when you're on vacation and there's some hot person and you have a fling or whatever.
	And you know it can't lead anywhere because he's from Timbuktu and you're from Queens or something like that, right?
	And so people give themselves permission to fall because it's like falling and whatever.
	And so if you had given yourself this distance, then you can allow yourself to become more emotionally vulnerable and attached because it can't go forward.
	It can't grow from there.
	And so you don't have the same judgment or evaluation.
	Like if you're on vacation and there's some guy, you know, he's, I don't know, he's smart, he's sexy or whatever, and He's got a couple of red flags.
	You don't care about those red flags because you're on vacation.
	You're not thinking of marrying the guy.
	You're not even going to be boyfriend-girlfriend.
	So you can overlook the red flags because you set up this impossibility in your mind that he can't move to where you are.
	So you didn't have to evaluate him as a boyfriend because he couldn't move to where you were in your mind.
	Sorry, I know you're trying to say it.
	I'm not trying to explain your life, so tell me where I'm wrong.
	No, no, no. That does make...
	Makes sense what you're saying. I see where you're coming from.
	One thing is that I don't like impossible situations.
	It would not be my choice for him not to be able to.
	If he had been in a normal situation and were a normal guy, I think I would have been much more open to that possibility.
	But it wasn't an impossible situation in your mind, I think, because he couldn't move to where you were.
	So this was a fling you could have without having to evaluate him As a long-term partner, potential husband, potential father of your children.
	But see, I don't want things like that.
	I want those scenarios where I'm looking for that partner.
	I don't want to be distracted by the ones that aren't possible.
	I get this.
	But because in your mind he wasn't possible because he couldn't move to where you were, you had a fling.
	And then, right, so you're like, well, this is just a fling, man, because he can't move to where I am, right?
	And so you overlooked the red flags, the big one, which I get is not his fault, but so what?
	It's still a big, you know, it's still, if somebody has cancer, it's not their fault.
	It's still a big thing to look at, right?
	So you got involved without evaluating the red flags.
	And I know you said only half of it is the illegality, right, the citizenship issue.
	So because you kept him as an impossibility in the same way that someone on vacation can have an impossibility, you didn't fully evaluate before committing yourself to him physically and emotionally.
	You didn't fully evaluate him as a long-term partner.
	But your body is like, oh, we love the guy.
	We're making love with the guy.
	Our bodies don't know anything about this modern world of hookups and birth control.
	Honestly, our bodies don't have a clue.
	What's going on in the modern world?
	Because we evolved over like, you know, four billion years of evolution, hundreds of thousands of years of human evolution, right?
	So guys playing video games, their bodies don't really know that it's just a video game.
	Otherwise, they'd be no fun playing it, right?
	If your body was just like, oh, this is just boring, manipulated pixels.
	It's like, no, it looks real. It feels real.
	So for your body, when you're like, I love this guy, we're making love with this guy, you know what happens?
	Boom, pair bonding. Pair bonding.
	Now, you were hoping to dodge the pair bonding thing because he couldn't come to where you are.
	But then he comes to where you are, and now the red flags.
	It's like, oh, my God, right?
	Like the guy you meet in Aruba shows up on your doorstep, right?
	And you had fun with him for a week in Aruba, and now he shows up at your doorstep, and you're like, whoa, dude, I had a whole different set of standards in Aruba.
	In other words, very low ones. All you had to have was abs and great hair.
	But as far as long-term father of my children stuff, that's a whole different set of hoops you've got to jump through, and you didn't jump through those, right?
	So he comes to you because he bonded, And you pair-bonded, right?
	And our bodies, remember, our bodies evolved with no sense of birth control, which means sexuality is pair-bonding because it leaves yellow.
	Sorry about that. I'm working with some AirPods that I do not understand.
	No problem, no problem.
	It's the least of the challenges we have.
	Okay, so what I'm saying is that your body doesn't know anything about birth control or distance, right?
	So our body, deep down, like our heart, our soul is like, oh, I love the guy and we're making love, which means we're making babies, which means we're committed because it takes a quarter century to raise those babies to adulthood, right?
	It takes like 25 years for the adult male brain to reach maturity, right?
	Yes. Some might put it longer, but I think that's statistically what it is, right?
	So your body is like, oh yeah, we're pair bonded, right?
	But The pair bonding, like the decision of who you're with, and again, this could be boyfriend thing, but the decision of who you're with, which leads to long-term relationship, leads perhaps to marriage, to parenthood, to whatever, right? Those standards are pretty high, right?
	I mean, if there was a rule, right, as there used to be, and what we evolved with was, hey, you make love to her, right?
	You're married, like shotgun wedding, right?
	You're married, right?
	And so your body is like, oh, yeah, well, we're kind of married, right?
	But because your intellect kept him at a distance of impossibility, you didn't go through the judgment process of, okay, if I pair bond with this guy… What's going to happen to my life?
	And so you have, I think, pair-bonded with him and your body is like, oh, I assume we're about to have kids with this guy and we're married and all of this.
	And this is why it feels so difficult, I think.
	Why it's like quicksand.
	Why you're kind of stuck in this place.
	Because now you're trying to apply the standards to him that rationally or emotionally should have been applied a year and a half ago or even two years ago.
	Right now, you've basically bought a car, brought it home and said, actually, I've got to turn this thing into a boat.
	It's like, well, that's really tough.
	Anyway, sorry, go ahead. Yeah, I totally understand that.
	There's one thing, though, that at least I think helps a little bit.
	I know that there was that messiness in the beginning that probably did not help me consider him like a life partner in the beginning like I should have.
	But before he did move to my state, When we went on that little Colorado trip, we took this deck of cards.
	It was one of those goofy little question cards that are like 50 questions to answer before you get married.
	And I know that we were just considering moving into the same state.
	Are you trolling me, young lady?
	Are you trolling me?
	You are trolling me. You are trolling me.
	Why? Well, I wasn't really serious about it, but we did read these cards about getting married.
	Well, I was definitely serious about him by that point.
	Okay. Okay.
	But, I mean, very serious at this point, right?
	Well, we both find it fun to answer the big questions, the deep questions, sooner rather than later.
	It's like we need to know if we're actually good for each other long-term before we even start dating.
	So we... But after you've already pair-bonded, fallen in love and had sex.
	A little mixed up, but we at least did it, which was good.
	It's like listening to modern relationships.
	I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh. But listening to modern relationships is like watching the movie Memento or Rashomon or whatever.
	These are movies that start at the end and go back to the beginning.
	But anyway, it doesn't really matter.
	You should watch Memento.
	It's pretty good for that. Anyway.
	Okay, so you sit down and you're trying to decide the future of a relationship after you've fallen in love and made love.
	And you read these 50 questions, right?
	And how does that go? It went...
	We both kind of already knew that we were pretty similar in a lot of ways, but it was almost uncanny.
	We answered all 50 exactly in the same ways.
	And these are the most essential questions that you have to answer.
	Do you remember any examples?
	I mean, obviously, do you want kids or that kind of stuff?
	Is there other things? Of course.
	Same amount of kids, same parenting style.
	Same type of living that we want, same place we would want to live, same kind of, I think we both answered, like a farmhouse close to a city.
	You know what I mean? Do we both love the same hobbies?
	Yeah, we do. Are we both athletic?
	Yes. I mean, it covered everything, and we are incredibly compatible.
	Except for the, you're both legal, but that's...
	Well, yes, besides that point, which is what makes it so confusing.
	Right. Right. Okay.
	All right. Except that there does seem to be a gap, right?
	And the gap is the darkness, half of which is not related to the illegality.
	And again, I know we could quibble over the number, but that's sort of a rough gauge.
	So the half that's not related to the illegality, what do you think was missed by these questions?
	Yeah. I'm not exactly sure because that covered all the bases.
	The stuff that are, I think, important for having kids.
	I think in that way we are all covered.
	But in the other respect of just day-to-day happiness, I don't think it asks a specific question like, do you laugh?
	Are you an optimist or a pessimist?
	That kind of stuff. Yeah, maybe that.
	He's not terribly pessimistic, I don't think.
	He's a weird mix.
	I think he's more of a realist.
	I think we're on the hazy borders where it sounds like you're half guessing, half making things up at the moment, which is where the trauma is, right?
	Yes. That's where the real difficulty is here, right?
	Okay, so I guess these cards had something to do or had some influence with you guys deciding for him to move to your area, right?
	For me, personally, yes.
	Okay, and this was as Boyfriend and Girlfriend, right?
	You said by the end of the Colorado road trip, what week, week and a half, that you were Boyfriend and Girlfriend?
	Yes, we decided then it was official.
	Right, okay. Now, when you look at the issues that you're facing now, are there any that weren't knowledgeable to you or that you didn't know about before you made love, before you fell in love or whatever?
	were there any issues that you're dealing with now that you were not aware of back then?
	I would say, I think the degree of his unhappiness I think the degree of his unhappiness due to having, like his experience.
	I'm trying to say that in a clearer way.
	Yes, please do.
	I'm not following yet, but we'll get there.
	Working through it.
	The degree that he is actually very unhappy and traumatized by his past and by being illegal.
	Well, those are two things, right?
	Yes. One can be rectified more easily than the other.
	Absolutely. So what percentage is which?
	I mean, that's a question that he knows more than I do, whether it was his bad upbringing that is causing a lot of his strife or whether it's just...
	Having been an illegal and that no one understands him.
	And would you say that he's, I know I keep trying to numerize these things.
	I find it helpful and I think it does help quantify these things to try at least.
	Would you say that he's twice as unhappy as you thought he was or four times or one and a half times or 50%?
	how much more unhappy than you thought he was is he?
	Maybe twice.
	I had known some of the depth of his strife a few months into knowing him, but it seems the more I know him to be affecting him more than I had thought.
	Okay, here's a big question.
	Ready? You sitting down?
	Yes. Take between the legs, whatever you need, crash helmet.
	Okay, no, it's maybe the biggest question of the convo, right?
	Here's the big question. Did he hide his unhappiness from you or have you, through no fault of your own, in a sense, made him more unhappy?
	And what I mean by that is, right, so either he was hiding his unhappiness And he was always twice as unhappy but he's just coming out now.
	Or you have made him much more unhappy because he wants to move ahead with his life and it was a whole lot easier to be illegal before he met you because there wasn't this big barrier.
	To moving forward with you that his illegality now represents.
	Sorry, that was a really poor way of putting it, but I hope that makes some sense.
	In other words, he's more tortured by the illegality now because he loves you and he's stuck in this way and you can't commit to him in this way.
	So either he was really unhappy but he hid it from you or you dating him has increased his unhappiness and frustration at the illegal status.
	I think it is...
	Absolutely and completely both.
	I think he does.
	No? Is that the wrong answer?
	Are you splitting the difference here?
	So you think he was hiding some of it?
	I think he hides it from himself.
	He doesn't... He tries...
	He almost pretends to be happy.
	That's kind of the vibe I get from him, which is part of the reason I don't like it because it can seem fake.
	Like, I don't want him to be fakely happy.
	I just want him to be real.
	And he seems to think that he has to...
	Well, no, no, but you do also have a standard that you want to be happy and laugh, right?
	Yes, I do. So it is biased.
	Well, no, I mean, if he's real, aren't you real gone?
	Wait, wait. If he's real...
	Like, if he is really unhappy...
	Okay, let me ask you this. If you go back to prior to the Colorado trip, you know, just before you fell in love and made love and all that, right?
	If you had known that he was this unhappy, would you have moved forward with the romantic relationship?
	I wouldn't have held it against him if he were unhappy.
	That's not what I asked.
	Good dodge. Good dodge.
	You are like a squid that is well-oiled.
	And I say this with respect.
	No, that was an excellent dodge.
	I didn't ask if you held it against him.
	We don't hold people's unhappiness against him.
	That would be pretty bad, right?
	But would you have moved if you had known how unhappy he was, which you know now, And, you know, and maybe he's hiding even more.
	You said he pretends to be happy.
	Maybe there's a whole canyon down there of unhappiness, right?
	Yes. But if you had, let's just say now, right?
	So if you had known a year and a half ago how unhappy he actually was now or is now, would you have moved forward to the romantic relationship?
	Okay, let me think.
	Oh, listen, take your time.
	That's a hell of a question. Um...
	Knowing the deeper unhappiness, like knowing more in depth how unhappy he is due to his upbringing and the fact that he's illegal, I would still have gone forward with the relationship because I would have had the chance to take that away or relieve that unhappiness.
	But you haven't.
	No, no. No, but you haven't.
	Hang on, hang on. You can't say, I would have relieved his unhappiness because he's now twice as unhappy as when you met him, right?
	I mean, in his experience.
	And again, I'm not saying it's your fault. We're still puzzling that out, right?
	He is as unhappy as he is now.
	If you had not been able to change that, but you had, that was my question.
	If you had known, you can't alter, right?
	Because I'm obviously you haven't been trying to make him unhappy, right?
	You seem like a very nice young lady and I'm sure you're not just emotionally toying with him like some kind of sadist.
	Can we get an amen on that?
	Absolutely not.
	I think I would sense that, right?
	So, he is what he is.
	And there's no altering it, sending yourself back in time to a year and a half ago, before you kiss him, before you make love with him, before you fall in love with him, saying, listen, I'm going forward a year and a half.
	This is how unhappy he is.
	Would you have gone forward with the relationship?
	And there's no magic thing where you can make that unhappiness go away because this is where you are, right?
	Would you have gone forward if he was twice as unhappy as he was when you knew him and decided to go forward then?
	That depends on how much of his unhappiness is due to me or how much is just because I knew him better and now I understand the depth of the agony caused by his upbringing and such.
	Well, I mean, the agony caused by his upbringing, I mean, you can't fix that.
	Exactly. And so I would definitely have gone forward just knowing more of the depth of what he's been through.
	Absolutely. But I have...
	Sorry, you would have gone forward.
	I mean, that doesn't mean it can't be fixed, right?
	But lovers can't fix childhood trauma.
	Like there's no love that can eliminate childhood trauma.
	I think skilled professionals can.
	Massive courses of self-study and self-analysis.
	I was in therapy for many years, so...
	I mean, I had my own childhood issues, but, you know, worked really hard on them, but it wasn't any girlfriend that fixed it.
	We don't, you know, that's like saying, you know, I need my wisdom teeth out, but my girlfriend can figure it out because she loves me.
	It's like, no, no, that's like pretty complicated stuff, right?
	You need a professional. So you can't fix this unhappiness.
	And if the remaining part has something to do with you, right?
	Yes. Then you're making him more unhappy.
	Again. The causality we can talk about in a sec.
	So you're making him more unhappy.
	And you can't fix his childhood unhappiness.
	So again, if he's as unhappy as he is now, going back in time, would you have stayed his friend?
	Because you can stay his friend, right?
	Or would you have moved forward with the romantic relationship with the full knowledge that he's this unhappy now?
	I don't think he regrets the relationship, but if I could have spared him any unnecessary pain, I would have.
	But it would be helpful to know the future in order...
	And this sounds like a big theoretical exercise, like, what am I, a Terminator who can go into the past?
	No, it is, because we're all evaluating this stuff all the time.
	Whether we like it or not, it's part of the machinery that goes on in our brain.
	We're constantly evaluating, am I in a good place?
	Have I made good decisions? Do I have regrets?
	So, for me, it's like, well, would I have gone to the volleyball team where I met my wife?
	Yes, absolutely, and I would have dressed in even more spandex or whatever, right?
	But for you, you are evaluating this.
	I mean, like it or not, you are evaluating this.
	We're just trying to bring this from the unconscious to the conscious because then you can deal with it more clearly and more openly, right?
	Because you care for him, you love him.
	If your presence makes him more unhappy, and we can get into why, but if your presence makes him more unhappy and he's more unhappy now than when you first met him, It would be a little cruel to say, oh, I totally would have gone ahead if he's twice as unhappy now as when he appeared to be when you met him, right?
	Yes. Now, do you understand?
	Sorry, that sounds ridiculously paternal.
	I apologize. Listen, young lady, do you understand?
	Sorry about that. Is it clear to you that his love for you is a significant portion of his unhappiness?
	Yes. Because now he wants to marry you or he wants to move forward and you can't get the proof of validation that you need because he's illegal, which is torturing him.
	So you've made his illegal status, again, I'm not saying you were mean or anything, but you've made his illegal status much more tortuous to him, if I understand the situation correctly.
	Well, that's actually something, if I could clarify, it might be helpful for us both.
	You guys had talked about there being that impossible situation, but in fact, it wasn't quite – it's not as quite as impossible as it seems.
	I don't have any expectation for him to make money as an illegal alien.
	I think he is – he thinks that completely, and I try to convince him otherwise, but he thinks that's the root of the issue.
	I'm so sorry to interrupt.
	But that's because you're a female and he's a male.
	Yes, absolutely. So he wants to protect his family, and he wants to provide for his family, and he wants to give you a wonderful house with a white picket fence and a windmill and a Maserati.
	He wants to provide for his family.
	That's what men do. And we can say, well, yes, but women can make money.
	Yeah, I get all of that, but our bones and our balls basically haven't changed in a million years, right?
	So he wants to do that.
	So you saying, well, I don't need that.
	I don't expect that. It's like, you can say that, but, you know...
	It's like trying to talk him out of his gender, right?
	Yes. Yeah, no, I see that too.
	I guess, I mean, I was just, I'm just looking more for the traits that will lead to that, you know, not necessarily the end game.
	Just that dedication, hard work.
	Well, no, but here's the thing too, right?
	To make money, you need some element of likability and charisma.
	I mean, whether we like it or not.
	Unless you happen to be, I don't know, some super lucky time brain genius like Bill Gates or Steve Jobs or whatever it is.
	People need to want to work with you.
	They need to want to work with you.
	You need to be able to make sales to people.
	You need to be able to, you know, whatever.
	If he's going to be an entrepreneur or something, he's got to be likable.
	And if he gets increasingly more miserable, what are his economic opportunities like?
	Oh, that is a very good point.
	But he is... Okay, taking me out of the picture, he's definitely charismatic and likable, more than me.
	And it is my goal not to affect that at all.
	If I do unconsciously, then that is a problem.
	You mean to affect his charisma?
	Yes, I should not at all have any negative effect on his happiness.
	No, but you will if he wants to get together with you, but his illegality is a problem.
	And also people can get into the spiral where my girlfriend doesn't like me when I'm in a bad mood.
	That puts me in a bad mood.
	My girlfriend likes me less because I'm in a bad mood.
	Now I have to cover up my bad mood, but now my girlfriend doesn't like me because she senses that I'm faking something.
	Like it's an impossible situation, right?
	Yes.
	So if he can't solve his unhappiness, his negativity, what are his economic opportunities?
	We can say he's smart. He is smart, without a doubt.
	I get that. I've been to talk to the guy for a long time.
	He's a smart guy. He's economically knowledgeable, and he's very eloquent, and I get all of that.
	But if he's miserable, if he's unhappy, it's going to be pretty tough to make money because people aren't really going to want to work with him because it'll be like, dude, love you, but you're kind of a downer, and I don't want to spend eight hours a day in an office with you, right?
	So... That's, I think, part of the challenge.
	So you're scanning him.
	I apologize for telling you what being a woman is, right?
	So, you know, slap me silly if I get something astray, right?
	But I think deep down, your ovaries are scanning him.
	Can he provide? Can he provide?
	Now, you've already emotionally, good husband, good father.
	Okay, fine. But kids got to eat.
	They got to eat more than they have to be loved.
	Because you can survive without love.
	You can't survive without food, right?
	So you're scanning him.
	Because you are of childbearing age.
	I'm not saying you're going to have kids tomorrow, but you're of childbearing age, so your ovaries are scanning the guy saying, can I trust him to impregnate me?
	Because once you're pregnant with the guy's kid, you've got a quarter century where he's got to stick around and be reliable and make money, and your body assumes you're going to be disabled from...
	You know, you've got nine months of childbirth, you've got recommended at least a year and a half of breastfeeding, then you might have another kid, you know, nine months more, another year and a half, maybe if you want three kids.
	I mean, you're talking five, six, seven, eight years that your body thinks.
	You're dependent upon him making money for you.
	Again, I'm talking as we evolved, right?
	I get there's the welfare state and you have a wealthy family that might help out.
	But deep down, your genetics don't know anything about that.
	So they're just saying, can this guy bring home the cheddar?
	Can he bring me a deer to gnaw on while the babies are feeding off my boobs, right?
	And so I think this is part of the torture, is that love, yeah, love is great, you know, values, virtues, but it's all really romantic love is really about providing for babies, right?
	We pair bond for babies, we have marriage for babies, we have sex fundamentally for babies.
	And so I think you're scanning to move forward, can I trust this guy to impregnate me?
	Now, because of his legal situation, you can't come to a conclusion.
	I think that's where some of the torture is coming from.
	It's definitely where most of the torture is coming from, but I also don't have any doubt that he'll be able to provide in the future.
	I don't have doubts about that.
	Okay, again, I'm so sorry to be annoying and lecture away.
	I'll keep this very brief, I promise.
	You're a nine, right? Eight, probably.
	Okay, listen, you've got a wonderful personality, very eloquent, very smart, and you don't mind it when annoying guys lecture you on the internet.
	So, you know, very gracious and all of that.
	So a lot of positive aspects, right?
	So the question isn't, can he provide?
	The question is, for your future children, is he the best at providing that you can get?
	Is he the most secure?
	Remember, sex, love, marriage is about putting the food in the mouths of children and keeping them sheltered, right?
	So the question, yeah, can he provide?
	Absolutely. No question.
	But... The reason we evolved as a species is we look for the best providers.
	Men look for the most attractive women and women look for the best providers.
	And again, I know we're in a modern world and there's money floating around and Bitcoin and blah, blah, blah.
	But I'm talking about deep down in the part of our genetics that don't Have a clue about any of that stuff happening and it's just doing the same stuff they've done for millions of years, right?
	Can you do better?
	Now, you can say, well, in terms of integrity, no, I don't think I can.
	Yeah, that's fine. Integrity is important, right?
	I'm a philosopher, so integrity is important.
	But when it comes down to you putting yourself in the uniquely vulnerable position of needing a guy to For the next 25 years, to pull far more than his weight in the providing of resources, the question is, can you do better?
	In other words, can your children get access to more resources?
	That sounds so shallow.
	Well, it's the reason we're all here.
	I mean, you can say it's shallow, but we wouldn't be here.
	If our ancestors, if the women hadn't discarded men who didn't provide and chose men who did provide, you understand, there'd be no human beings.
	There'd be no life at all. So the only reason we're here to call it shallow is because it actually happened.
	So for us to rise above it, it just seems kind of silly to me, if that makes sense.
	No, I understand that.
	And for women, look, do you, listen, do you wear makeup?
	Do you dress attractively?
	Do you wear lipstick? I mean, you know all of this stuff, right?
	No, I don't. Oh, you don't?
	Well, I don't wear makeup at all, but I do like dresses.
	Yeah, you like dressing up, you like to be attractive, and one of the reasons you don't wear makeup is you're in your 20s, right?
	So, I get that, and that's fine.
	I'm not a lot of criticism, but, you know, talk to me in 15 years.
	Anyway, maybe you will, maybe you will.
	So, But there's more than money to provide.
	There's much, much, much, much more than money to provide.
	You provide your genetics, your brains, how you're brought up.
	I mean, I feel like that's a lot more important than just monetary consideration.
	No, no, no. That's because you grew up wealthy, right?
	Oh, I don't know. Oh, he told me a little bit about your family.
	We don't have to get into any details, but they're pretty comfortable, right?
	Yes. Okay. So you grew up not having to worry about money.
	So you don't understand.
	I'm sorry. That's so annoying, right?
	No, I don't. It's completely true.
	I don't understand. Right. I mean, he and I grew up poor.
	So for you to say, well, you know, money, it doesn't really matter.
	It's like, yeah, it does.
	But, you know, because you grew up comfortable and wealthy and you never have to worry about being homeless, right?
	If whatever happens, you can move back in home.
	Something really bad happens.
	Oh, and not respect myself.
	No. No. No, no, but you're still not going to starve.
	That's sort of what I'm saying, right?
	I mean, I'm not saying you'd be happy about it, but, you know, you wouldn't be indigent.
	You wouldn't be like, I don't know, trying to sell pencils for a cup of coffee or something, right?
	So, I'm with you.
	You underestimate my pride.
	No, I'm kidding. You're right.
	If you would rather die than go back home, we'll talk about your family a little later.
	No, no, no. That's pretty damning, right?
	So, listen, I'm with you more than you think, right?
	I'm absolutely with you.
	Once the money stuff is taken care of, and I would rather have less money and more virtue.
	Likewise. But you still need the money.
	Yes. Right? So the money has to be at least for a relative degree of comfort for the kids, and you've got to have health insurance, and you've got to have dentistry, and you've got to be able to pay your heating bill, your electricity bill, and what if the kids want to go to college?
	I mean, so you need some cheddar.
	Like, you just need some money, right?
	Yes. And so the question is, can you get a guy who provides the emotional quality that this guy has and...
	It's also legal and can make money and has a sunny personality.
	Now, obviously, I can't answer that for you.
	I tell you of my own experiences that I dated a lot of women and then I met my wife and I was like, you know, we met, we got engaged in a couple of months, we got married in 11 months.
	And that was like 20 years ago and I still feel, I'm not going to pull one of these, you know, these guys are like, I can't believe she's with me.
	Look, I'm a great husband, I'm a great dad, but...
	I can't upgrade from her.
	For me, she may not be the perfect woman for everyone, but she certainly is the perfect woman for me.
	There's no upgrade that's possible.
	And so when you meet that right person, you're not in that tortured state.
	So the reason I'm unpacking all of this is because there's some part of you that feels I might be able to do better.
	What if I could get a guy who was this smart, who had this level of integrity, but also didn't have this massive legal barrier, that didn't have this messed up family, that didn't have this undertow of unhappiness?
	You know what I mean? Those are very real questions, right?
	Of course I could get a rich guy with probably okay morals who would also do well.
	I mean, I could get almost anyone it feels like, but that feels so shallow to just...
	No, but it's happening whether you like it or not.
	How so? Because you are judging him and finding him wanting.
	Because the moment you don't find him wanting, you grab his arm and you pull him to a church.
	You are judging him and finding him wanting.
	Now you have an opinion about that, that that's bad and shallow.
	That just means you're driving blindfolded.
	You can get mad at your entire emotional apparatus and your instinctual apparatus for what works for you and what's best for your kids, but that evolved over billions of years.
	So you can get mad at that if you want, but all that means is that you're then flying blindfolded and you can't make any rational decisions.
	It is not shallow.
	To question whether you're with the right person.
	It is not shallow to ask yourself if you can do better.
	Because if you feel you can do better and you marry someone and you have children with them, you will most likely get divorced, which will be terrible for you, terrible for your husband, and most importantly, absolutely terrible for the children.
	There's no question of that. I'm not even...
	That's part of the reason...
	That I'm scared of committing because I'm scared of committing to the wrong person, not of commitment.
	I don't plan on backing out.
	And so there's so much pressure.
	And so what I'm saying is you need to unpack why you think you might be the wrong person.
	If you judge it as just, well, that's just shallow and wrong.
	I shouldn't feel that way. It's like, that's not a wise idea.
	You must be curious with yourself.
	Judging yourself as like, oh, that's just shallow.
	It's kind of being a jerk to yourself and to your deeper self, which is trying to be heard.
	Now, once your deeper self is heard and you can unpack and evaluate the pluses and minuses of this guy, maybe you will think he's the right guy.
	Maybe, whatever. But just...
	Like, you know, if you have a really strong opinion in this conversation and I just said, well, that's just shallow.
	I don't want to hear it. What would you think?
	Would that be rude of me? Yeah.
	So don't do it to yourself.
	It would be rude for me to do to you.
	I'm just here for a one-off.
	You've got to live with yourself your whole life.
	Stop being rude to yourself. It's just hard to completely disregard yourself.
	Like answering those 50 cards, for example, that means something if that is so accurate.
	And knowing that your future kids would always be happy and provided for, I'm not talking about degree, but that is something to consider because I feel like my biggest responsibility is for that.
	That is what I think about.
	You know what I mean? The happiness of your future children.
	Yes, and...
	There's so much to consider.
	No, there's not. I'm sorry, because you're giving yourself option paralysis here.
	The simple story, and this is not a simple ending, right?
	But the simple story is you got...
	Entwined with a guy before you came to a decision about his potential as a provider.
	And now you are entwined, you are pair-bonded, and now you're trying to bolt on this evaluation of him as a provider after you are emotionally married to him.
	You put the cart before the horse.
	This is why I was earlier, remember, you said, oh, we went on this trip to Colorado in a week in the car, and I'm like, what?
	Right? Because that's pair-bonding stuff.
	That's pair-bonding stuff.
	So you're now pair-bonded.
	This is not a disaster, you understand?
	It's not a disaster at all.
	I don't want to make it sound like some big pirate thing.
	It's definitely out of order, though.
	It's out of order, yeah, because we have to evaluate...
	People before we pair bond.
	And unfortunately, you and me and everyone else on the planet is just lied to.
	Like, hey, go have fun and have an affair and have sex.
	It's no big deal. It's like, no, but unfortunately it is because it's like saying, eat chocolate.
	It's fun. It's like, well, our body doesn't think it's fun.
	Our body is just like sugar and fat.
	Yay, whatever, right? And it just makes you gain weight whether you believe the propaganda or not.
	And you, your parents are still together, right?
	No, they are not.
	They divorced when I was five, and that makes it much more difficult to use their advice in this realm.
	It feels kind of like I'm out in the blue.
	Like, I can't even take their advice.
	50 cards, and you're thinking that, oh my god, it's a tarot card of my future, right?
	Possibly. I like to look at things objectively, logically.
	What did your dad say?
	When you said, I want to date a guy who's in the legal.
	Well, the first time I actually talked to my dad about it, it was kind of funny, actually.
	We were sitting on the couch and I was like, this is when, whoops, sorry.
	This is when he and I, thank you.
	This is when we were still, what were we, friends-ish, possibly, you know what I mean, in that first year.
	Uh-huh. And I asked my dad, I said, I was like, what do you think if I just decided to marry him to give him papers, a friend?
	And my dad seemed really taken aback by that.
	He was like, oh my god, I must not have taught you well if you take marriage so lightly.
	And I remember thinking, you take marriage lightly.
	If you divorce someone, I mean, it doesn't make sense that you think that I should take marriage more seriously if you didn't is sort of the way I thought about it.
	I don't know.
	Oh, no, I totally understand.
	And it's not so much that he made a mistake.
	It's that he seems to be completely blind to his lack of credibility in this issue, right?
	Well, exactly.
	He could say, listen, I know I didn't teach you much about commitment in marriage, but that seems to be like a bad idea as opposed to, well.
	Clearly, I demonstrated to you how important the sanctity of marriage is, right?
	Well, exactly.
	Exactly.
	I thought it was like, well, wait, why don't you agree with this if you don't take it lightly either?
	Yeah.
	So yeah, that was the first time I'd talked to him about him.
	And what about your mom?
	What did she say? Specifically to what?
	To talking about dating or getting involved with the illegal...
	She...
	Was very skeptical at my decision, but she also lets me do me, you know what I mean?
	She doesn't... She gives me free range of what I... Gives me free choice, but she...
	She seemed to make it clear that she would be very hesitant to give acceptance, in a way.
	Is that kind of clear?
	Vaguely. If you want to tell me more, I'm happy to hear.
	It's kind of hard to explain it because she seemed like she would bestow her acceptance very warily.
	But she also would be very nice and accepting and warm.
	That's just who she is.
	But I think she didn't...
	I don't think any of my family really take the relationship as seriously as they should or as I do.
	Well, if they didn't take their own relationship that seriously, why would they take yours?
	Exactly. And you're trying to learn from their mistakes, right?
	I'm trying to not use them as a guide.
	Right, right.
	Okay, let's do a quick, it's called a role play.
	Pretend I'm some, I don't want to say your dad or whatever, but some guy you're talking to about this, right?
	So just tell me, tell me I'm thinking of dating a guy who's illegal.
	Tell you? Yeah, just pretend that you're telling someone about a year and a half ago, thinking of dating a guy who's illegal.
	I'm thinking about dating this guy, but he doesn't have his papers.
	Huh. Okay.
	That's very interesting. Obviously, he must be a very special guy because that's a big negative, right?
	To not have papers, right?
	Huge negative, but I think it's worth it.
	I think the pros outweigh the cons.
	Do you think you could get a guy where you didn't have to balance these things?
	In other words, do you think you could get a guy who was as good but had papers?
	Yes. So why don't you do that?
	I haven't met a person with as many pros.
	Well, sure, but you're certainly not going to meet a guy with as many pros if you're dating a guy who's illegal, right?
	Because you'll already be in a relationship.
	Yes. I mean, you'd have to see where that one goes first.
	Well, but I know you, right?
	I know that you get kind of attached, right?
	Yeah. So, it's like saying, well, I will superglue my fingers together and I'll just take them apart, right?
	I mean, you get pretty attached, right?
	And if you could get a guy with his qualities but without the negative of being an illegal, I mean, you met him at an economics conference.
	So, I mean, there are other guys at the economic conference and all of that kind of stuff, right?
	Now, if you genuinely think he's like the guy, like if he's got so many positive attributes that you're willing to accept him being illegal, hey, you know, you have my blessing.
	But that means you better get married quickly.
	I mean, he definitely has a lot of qualities that I don't think I would find in most people.
	Like I would.
	I'll admit, my standards are really, really high, and a lot of the things that I want in someone are weird.
	I like a guy to be foreign.
	I like them to be a nerd.
	I like them to be able to dance.
	The list is a very weird conglomeration, and the fact that this guy has all of it, even though he doesn't have papers, It's hard to believe, and I don't know if I would find that entire combination in somebody else.
	So if you do find him to be the guy, right, then you can, of course, make him legal by marrying him, right?
	So you would, I assume, you want to marry the guy.
	I mean, you've known him for a while.
	You said you've known him for six months or whatever, right?
	So you do want to marry him At the moment, I mean, assuming that nothing, like he doesn't turn out to be like a reptile in a human flesh suit or something like that, which that may be on your list too for all I know.
	So all other things being equal, is this the guy, like if he ends up being the guy you think he is or ends up continuing in the same pattern, is he the guy you want to marry?
	The guy, the rest of your life?
	Yes, if I'm happy most of the time.
	If I'm also happy.
	Everyone says that though, right?
	Everyone says I want to be happy in my relationships, right?
	So yes, I will marry him if I'm happy with him.
	My question is though, if you're going to get involved with a guy who's an illegal, if nothing surprising comes up, is this the guy you want to marry?
	He doesn't turn out to be a criminal or he's got another family or whatever it is, right?
	If he is who you think he is, will you marry him?
	Yes.
	That was a very Spanish question.
	Yes. I think the question mark is supposed to go at the beginning and the end.
	Anyway. So, yes.
	And the reason I'm asking this is not just for you, but for him.
	What does he need most?
	He needs a woman to marry him who's American, right?
	Yes. Okay.
	So, if you're not going to marry him...
	But I want to...
	Hang on. If you're not going to marry him...
	It's a disaster for him.
	Yes, absolutely.
	Because he hates you for years, and then there's a breakup, and then he's miserable, and he's heartbroken, and he's got the charisma of your average sea sponge, and this could put him back a half decade.
	He might get found out and deported.
	You could ruin his life, whereas he could meet some other woman who will marry him.
	So you've got to know.
	I would never string him along or waste his time unless I considered...
	I would consider to, like, that aspect, that marriage.
	No, no, no.
	Not consider. Not consider.
	If you're going to get involved with a guy who's illegal, he'd better be the guy to make up for the illegality.
	And you'd better want to marry him already.
	Because otherwise, you're taking him off the market for someone else who could marry him, and you guys are going to get entangled, and he won't end up being able to get married, and you'll be stuck with this mess.
	So that's why I'm asking you, right?
	If he's the guy, right?
	Maybe he's your soulmate, one in a million.
	Maybe you've got a sort of almost terminal case of one-itis, right?
	It's only one, only one, right?
	But that's why I'm asking.
	If he's the guy...
	Then you need to be married within a year.
	I was going to say a year and a half.
	But if you're not certain enough of that, then that's a problem.
	Because now you're going to get involved with a guy who desperately needs to get married, and you're not as committed as he is.
	That's torture to him, right?
	Yeah. Yeah, it is.
	And he chased you like crazy to begin with, right?
	Yeah. See, this is the thing too, man.
	If you got this guy who's illegal, what did he say after the first week or two that you knew him?
	Oh, this was a few months in.
	This was about three months after I met him.
	Okay, three months in, what does he say?
	I want to move here.
	Right. Because he wants to get married.
	Or he views that as the goal, right?
	Again, I'm not saying you get married in three months, but that's the plan, right?
	Yeah. So, he, and you know this about him, right?
	You know that he really wants to be with you, right?
	Yes. Okay. Do you want to be with him as much as he wants to be with you?
	In other words, if he said, no, you move here, would you have gone?
	No.
	Okay, so he wants you more than you want him.
	That sounds harsh.
	Well, empirically, we're just looking at the facts.
	I'm not trying to judge you as a good or bad person.
	I'm just looking empirically at the facts, right?
	But I don't know. Maybe I want a good husband and father more than he wants me.
	You know what I mean? Like, I want the ideal husband.
	I just don't know yet if he fits that.
	But maybe I should. No, you just told me he fits all these lists.
	He dances, he's nerdy, he's a foreigner.
	You told me he checks all these lists to the point where it makes up for the fact that he's illegal.
	Right, so if a guy has to have 100 points to marry you, And being illegal is minus 50 points, then he's got to have plus 100 points.
	He's just got to be way up there, right?
	Yeah. He's got to be 150.
	In other words, if he was legal, you'd totally marry him tomorrow, right?
	But the illegal drags it down to the point where, right?
	Now, you do understand, of course, that if you've got a guy who desperately wants to marry you, And you're uncertain about him and he's illegal.
	It's pretty harsh on him, right?
	I mean, not just his heart, but also his life.
	Because he's going to really desperately try and get you to marry him, both for love and for the papers.
	And you'll be like...
	Now, you are in the heady position of being wanted.
	Wanted, wanted, desired, desired, desired, right?
	Which for anyone, but particularly for women, is...
	Pretty heady and powerful position to be in, right?
	But it's silly if it's not real.
	Oh no, he really wants you.
	I talked to the guy.
	It doesn't matter though. It's cruel.
	It's cruel if it's not reciprocated.
	Again, wasting someone's time is terrible.
	Stringing someone along is terrible.
	I would want him...
	I want the absolute best for him.
	I doubt it.
	You do? No, listen, I say that not because I think you're a bad person in any...
	I think you're absolutely correct in your heart in what you say.
	But let's just jump out of that roleplay.
	Let's go forward two years, right?
	A year and a half after this decision, two years after you met him, right?
	Yes. Does he have a commitment from you?
	I would never let him...
	My deadline is about a year and a half or two years...
	I would not make him...
	Does he have a commitment from you?
	Are you engaged? I don't see it.
	Is that a no? So you say, I only want the best from him.
	I don't want to string him along. Now it's two years into your relationship.
	There's no ring. We wouldn't have a relationship further than two years unless there were a ring.
	But there's no ring. No.
	So if you break up with him, saying, I only wanted the best for him and I would never string him along, when you were in a relationship with him for two years and never committed, Would be a false statement.
	And again, I'm not saying you were being malevolent or anything like that, but we all have to look really square in the mirror, right?
	Because something you said earlier struck me really considerably.
	or you say, I don't regret anything?
	There's no one alive, my friend, who can say that.
	Well, I don't regret having the relationship.
	There's definitely parts of the relationship I regret, things that I've done that I regret.
	I regret making him feel certain ways, that he feels certain ways, but again, I wouldn't take away the relationship.
	Okay, what's best for him?
	If he ends up having lost, like it takes at least half the time to get over a relationship as the relationship itself, right?
	So let's say you guys drag it out for another six months, or let's say you do it tonight or whatever.
	I'm not saying, again, I don't know what you should or shouldn't do.
	So then he's poured his heart and soul and young love into a relationship where it's going to take him at least another year to recover.
	And he's going to be more suspicious of falling in love.
	He's going to be more suspicious of his attachment.
	He's going to be more suspicious of commitment.
	It's hardened his heart a little, as it will for you as well, right?
	But you, of course, as a legal eight, right?
	You have all the options in the world, right?
	How many options does he have?
	They're harder.
	You think? You think?
	So you can sail off and have ten guys asking you out next weekend, and he sails off and what has he got?
	No papers. No security.
	Bad family. And heartbreak.
	And you say, well, I only want the best for him.
	Is that what he's getting?
	I mean, seriously, is that what he's getting?
	I've told him, I've told him before that, that I think what he probably needs is a, an easier relationship, some, some, an easier relationship, some, some, some easier girl to get along with that'll be devoted in an instant and that he can bring to a farmhouse immediately.
	That's what he needs.
	He probably doesn't need or should be with me.
	So, you got involved with him and you brought his hopes up about love and marriage and citizenship when you felt you were the wrong person for him.
	Of course I wanted to be the right person for him.
	I wanted him to be the right person for me.
	No, you're jumping off the emotions here, right?
	And I'm not trying to make you feel bad, right?
	I'm not. But the bold facts are he wanted you much more than you wanted him.
	You've burned up two years of his attachment and you don't feel like you're the right person for him.
	Which is odd, because if he's the right person for you, how can you not be the right person for him?
	If you did these 50 questions and you were so compatible, how is it that you're not the right person for him?
	And I'm not saying you are, just help me understand why you're not in your mind.
	Because I feel like he needs someone who will commit blindly.
	And I can't do anything blindly.
	I have to know all the facts.
	No, no, no, no.
	You've known him for two years.
	Yes. You've had sex with him for 18 months.
	You've been his girlfriend for a year.
	Don't talk to me about blindly.
	You knew everything there was to know about him before you got involved with him.
	You went into this eyes wide open.
	And you knew, you're a very intelligent woman, right?
	So you knew without a doubt that...
	If you were still uncommitted a year into the relationship and two years into knowing him, and you felt that you weren't the right person for him, that was going to break his heart.
	You also knew that he desperately needs a marriage for legal purposes.
	Now, that doesn't mean he would only marry you for that, but that means that that's a pretty important consideration for him, right?
	Yes. So you knew that going into this relationship...
	Without committing to him was really bad for him.
	I mean, there really aren't even words, right?
	Of course not.
	That's why I put it off.
	Well, you knew everything about him going into the relationship.
	There's no new information here.
	Is he more unhappy now than he was a year ago?
	Well, sure he is, because you're telling him, oh, listen, guy who desperately needs a marriage and is desperately in love with me and desperately wants to marry me, oh, I don't think I'm the right woman for you.
	Hey, I wonder why he's so unhappy.
	That's strange. He wasn't that unhappy when I first met him.
	But there is new information.
	There is the information of knowing him Post papers.
	There's that lack of knowledge there that I thought I could understand fully by knowing him better.
	That was the information that I didn't have.
	That was the information that I thought I needed to get from a relationship.
	So you thought that you would get to know him post papers when he's never lived any of his life with papers?
	That's like saying, a guy's been blind from birth, but I need to know what he's like after he gets his vision back.
	How is that possible? How could you possibly know him post papers if he's never had papers?
	There's no way to know.
	There's no way to know. So you put yourself in a situation where you say, the moment I get knowledge I can't possibly get, I will commit.
	And that's the impossible situation, yes.
	It's not an impossible situation.
	How so? If I say to you...
	I will give you a million dollars the moment you tell me exactly how many butterflies are in the world.
	Am I ever going to give you a million dollars?
	No. Because the information is impossible to get, right?
	Yes. You say, my God, that's an impossible situation.
	No, it's not. If you say to him, I will commit to you the moment I get information I can't possibly get, that's not an impossible situation.
	It's an improbable situation?
	An impossible situation is there's no right choice.
	And you believe there is a right choice in this scenario?
	If you won't commit to him until you get information that you can't possibly get, you will never commit to him.
	If I say to you, I'll give you a million dollars when you tell me exactly how many butterflies are in the world, that's not an impossible situation.
	Because you're never going to get the million dollars.
	You just say, okay, I'm going to stop believing this guy's ever going to give me a million dollars.
	That's my way out, right?
	He's just messing with me, right?
	Yeah.
	Let's jump back for a sec, if you don't mind.
	Okay.
	This has to mirror something in your past.
	This has to mirror something with your parents, something between your parents, something in your past.
	That's what I've been thinking about.
	Ever since I listened to your talk with Bob, and you brought that up, and for the life of me, I do not know what that is.
	None of my other relationships were impossible at all.
	In fact, I was pretty close to committing to one of them.
	I've heard of one completely impossible relationship that you've told me of.
	Which one? Your father!
	Well, you go to your father and you say, hey, I'm thinking of dating illegally.
	He's like, I guess I never communicated to you how important I find marriage.
	That's an impossible situation.
	There's impossible relationships. Guy doesn't even know that he completely detonated the credibility of marriage to you.
	Sailing along like he's some guy who's been married forever?
	Now, when he said that, what did you say?
	Did you say, Dad, you've got to be kidding me.
	Are you telling me that you taught me something about the sanctity of marriage when you walked out when I was five?
	Are you crazy? What is the matter with you?
	I didn't say that, no.
	Right. Why not?
	I'm not saying you should have, just why not?
	Because I felt like his mistakes are already made.
	And I just can move on from there with that knowledge.
	I don't have to hurt anyone else with the knowledge that I've gained.
	I think that's very abstract.
	I also think it's not true.
	I think that you didn't tell him because if you had told him that frank and honest statement, he would have gotten very angry, very hurt.
	He would have withdrawn. He would have been negative.
	He would have been hostile. There would have been some negative emotional consequence to you being that frankly honest.
	And he knew that, which is the only reason why he can be that ridiculously hypocritical.
	I think the only reaction that I would have gotten is sadness.
	Just very, very, very, very sad.
	Which you understand is just manipulation, right?
	If you actually feel that way?
	That's not an honest emotion at all.
	Because if someone does something that you dislike or if somebody points out your hypocrisy, And then you just sit there being sad?
	That's just a controlling mechanism.
	What should the correct response be?
	I'm sorry? What should the correct response be?
	Well, the correct response is don't be so ridiculously blind to yourself and so hypocritical that you lecture your child about the sanctity of marriage after you bug it off when she was five.
	To not be in that situation to begin with.
	Or if you do for some reason say something hypocritical, right?
	I mean, my daughter pointed something out, a video game that we were playing, doesn't really matter the content, but she pointed out where I contradicted myself in the space of two days.
	And do you know what I said? Oh, you're totally right.
	Oh my God, I can't believe I did that.
	Thank you. Right?
	Yeah. And so she feels perfectly free to point out contradictions, hypocrisies, foibles, whatever you know.
	And I want her to. Because we all got to watch each other's back.
	We all end up justifying things to ourselves.
	We all end up making up lies about things.
	It's just human nature. It's a lot easier to live with a comfortable lie than a harsh truth, right?
	So I want people in my life.
	That's why I said to you earlier, I said, hey, please correct me where I'm wrong.
	Correct me where I've gone astray. Tell me if I'm off the mark.
	Yeah. Right?
	And I think you would feel comfortable doing that.
	And you did. You did.
	You did say something. Well, that wasn't my experience.
	Please tell me, right? So the correct response is to have a relationship with your daughter to the point where she knows that it's important for you to point out hypocrisy and that you appreciate her doing that.
	Yeah, I don't point out the hypocrisies.
	I just let them go.
	Because I think it's too far behind.
	Hang on, but that is cruel to your father.
	And this is why I'm trying to get you to redefine love here, both to Bob and to your dad.
	Because if you let him simmer in a destructive illusion, how is that kind?
	Yeah. So the only reason that you would not correct someone, like if your father was walking towards traffic with his headphones on, You'd push him aside.
	You'd pull him aside. You wouldn't just let him walk into traffic, right?
	If you did let him walk into traffic, that's because you hated him, right?
	Yes. So if your father is stuck in a very destructive illusion that costs your respect for him, That's why I want my daughter to point out my hypocrisy is because I need her to respect me.
	And if she thinks I'm too fragile to be told the truth, she can't have a single shred of respect for me.
	Yeah. So the reason why you would tell your father, I'm jaw-dropped at what you just said, Dad, because, oh my God, telling me about the sanctity of marriage, you didn't stay married to Mom past my fifth birthday, right?
	Yeah. And you would say that to him because you love him, you care for him, and you wish to retain your respect for him.
	But if you just shrug and then turn it into a virtue, well, I just don't want to cause any trouble, it's all in the past, he's made his mistakes, then you're basically saying, I will not act in a way to maintain my respect for my father.
	My father is a weak man, a pathetic man who cannot stand to be contradicted and gets really petty and emotionally manipulative when he's contradicted.
	Now, there's your genuine impossible situation, my friend.
	It always sounds vaguely sinister when I say, my friend, my friend.
	Like friendo from the creep from No Country for Old Men.
	I don't see that as impossible, though.
	It is. Like you said, there is a correct solution.
	If there is a correct solution, make that...
	The correct solution is on his side, to not be hypocritical.
	Here's the impossible situation on your side.
	The impossible situation on your side is...
	If I tell my father the truth, I will lose respect for him.
	If I don't tell my father the truth, I will lose respect for him.
	If I tell my father the truth that he has no credibility with me with regards to marriage and I actually hold him in a little bit of contempt for not even knowing that, then he's going to sigh and look sad and I'm going to feel manipulated and a little bit bullied and I'm just going to lose all respect for him.
	He's not going to engage with me about the facts.
	He's just going to sigh and look sad and tearful and manipulate me and make me feel bad, right?
	That's pathetic. It's pathetic.
	Or I could say, well, I'm not going to tell him the truth because he can't handle it.
	So either way, you lose respect.
	That's your impossible situation.
	You cannot possibly act in a way that will either retain or, heaven forbid, enhance your respect for your father.
	Well, I don't like having...
	Sorry, go ahead. I don't like having anything to be impossible.
	How do I solve it? Okay, I don't like just pointing out issues and not having a way to move forward from it.
	Tell the truth to your dad. But like you said, if I tell him, I'd lose respect just as well.
	Yes, but at least you'll have the honor of being honest.
	What did you say about Bob?
	His integrity, his honesty, his virtue.
	You're letting your father's manipulations rob you of honesty.
	All right, fair enough. You tell him the truth.
	And if he's manipulative and he pretends to cry and whatever, he looks sad, and then you say, hey, look, I just brought up something.
	What are you just looking at the four being sad for?
	You engage me. Like, come on, talk to me.
	Am I wrong? Let's talk it out.
	And then you've got to look at your mom and say, this is the guy she married.
	Where's your respect for your mom?
	You say to your mom, do you ever notice that when you contradict dad, he kind of gets passive-aggressive?
	Maybe stepping out a landmine for a divorced woman.
	I don't know. But you know what I mean?
	Like, these kinds of questions, right?
	You start to unpack all of this stuff.
	And you're just relentlessly curious.
	Socratic style, right? Just keep asking questions.
	And be honest about what you feel.
	You say, Dad, I'm scared to bring this up with you.
	Like, you said something way back when I was first talking about date and Bob.
	You said this thing about teaching me the sanctity of marriage, blah, blah, blah, right?
	Mm-hmm. You know, I mean, I really didn't feel like I could tell you exactly how exasperated that made me feel.
	Because I was afraid.
	I was afraid that you were just going to be sad and not engage with me or tell me or apologize for, you know.
	Right? Because, I mean, Dad, you understand that you made me responsible for not understanding the sanctity of marriage.
	You're the one who, I've never broken a marriage, Dad.
	You broke your marriage. When there were children involved, you ran off.
	And then you made it my fault that I didn't understand the sanctity.
	You blamed me for what you did.
	Now, you know, 20 years ago, fine, you know, whatever.
	But now, come on. Come on.
	Don't put me in that situation.
	Don't put me in that situation.
	Don't blame me for even if it's true that I don't understand the sanctity of marriage.
	And I think it is because I've never been divorced.
	You've been divorced. I've never been divorced.
	You ran out on kids.
	I've never run out of kids.
	So don't you dare lecture me about the sanctity of marriage because you've made the mistakes.
	I haven't. Do not put me in that situation, Dad.
	Do not put me in a situation where I have to remind you of this.
	It's really, really mean.
	Indeed. Very much so.
	Right? So he puts you in impossible situations.
	You put Bob in impossible situations.
	Okay, how do I escape that?
	No, no, no, no. Don't jump to action.
	Why? Because you've got to process the feelings.
	You've got to have the conversations.
	You've got to unpack all this stuff in your heart.
	You've got to learn about your history this way.
	You want to jump over the emotions.
	To get straight into action.
	I do admire Spock.
	I want to be like him. I just want to identify the problem, move forward, fix the problem.
	Okay, then you only get to mate once every seven years.
	You're already not living like Spock.
	You're banging this guy like a drum six months into meeting him.
	So I'm afraid there's no Spock for you.
	No soup for you and no Spock for you.
	So, no, you want to jump straight into, oh, okay, now I understand something.
	What do I do? Right?
	No. Not possible? You can do anything you want.
	It's a free world, at least to some degree these days.
	But no, I mean, obviously you can do whatever you want, but I think you need to figure out, I mean, I'm sure there are impossible situations with regards to your mom as well, because if you ask your mom, like, you know, what's up with dad?
	Why would he say this stuff and all that, right?
	And then she complains about your dad, and then you say, well, did he have any of these red flags before you decided to marry him and have children with him?
	And if she says, yeah, you know, there were some red flags, but I didn't really focus on them, then you'd say, well, why would you put me out into the dating world without telling me about red flags, mom?
	Now, I've got to navigate blind?
	I've got to rely on a freaking card set to figure out who I'm compatible with because you won't tell me about red flags?
	Or she says, oh, no, there were absolutely no red flags whatsoever, in which case your mom has about as good a judge of character as a fire extinguisher.
	Sorry, you were saying that? I had a question.
	Were there really no red flags at all for your wife?
	None. Were there no red flags?
	Yeah. Were there zero, even yellow flags?
	I honestly don't remember any.
	None. I would say I had a few red flags.
	But fortunately, I'd already done my – based on my family history, right?
	So – which I'm not responsible for.
	I just happened to be born into that household.
	And I'd already done the therapy. I'd done years of therapy to work on it and all that.
	So she had, I think, some reason for that.
	But no, honestly – She was great then.
	She's great now. And I'm not even a tiny bit disappointed.
	In fact, I'm even more thrilled now than when I married her.
	So, no. I mean, when it's the right person...
	There won't be any red flags.
	Not in my experience.
	And I dated a few girls.
	And I saw the red flags and they always played out.
	That way, right? They always played out exactly as you'd expect, right?
	So, yeah, if you've really got the right...
	I mean, look, we had different perspectives on things, which is natural, but it's not whether you have different perspective.
	It's how you resolve your differences that matter, right?
	Because you're always going to end up with different perspectives.
	It's how you resolve reason, evidence, whatever, right?
	So, honesty. So, no.
	No red flags. Not one.
	I guess the only red flag was, how is she still single?
	How did you trust your judgment coming from a less than perfect background?
	How did you decide, okay, I know what a red flag is.
	Well, I mean, again, I had done a lot of therapy and self-knowledge work and all of that, but for me, and this is a great question, by the way, as all your questions have been, but for me, it was like, I'm really comfortable with this person.
	I'm really happy with this person.
	She makes me laugh. She's very smart.
	She's very wise. She's very funny.
	And it was like, okay, what am I looking for?
	I mean, I can invent something. But what else am I looking for?
	I'm comfortable and I'm happy.
	What am I looking for? I can make something up.
	What if she's demonically possessed?
	What if she's an alien from the future?
	Right? But, I mean, you can make things up, but at some point it's just like, okay, well...
	But there were red flags for you, right?
	Yes. And there were red flags for him, too.
	Yes. Because you had all these deep conversations, you know, One of the first questions is, how do you get along with your dad?
	Now, you may have fed him some stuff like, oh, you know, it's rough for a little while there, but we get along well, we're close now, blah, blah, blah, right?
	Because you want to look good and you don't want to scare some guy off.
	You want to make it look like your family is more functional than it is sometimes.
	And we all have that impulse.
	It's certainly more possible for some of us than others, but we all have that impulse.
	But, you know, just keep asking questions.
	Oh, he left when you were five. Okay, well, how did that go?
	And, you know, I mean, have you talked to him about me and what did he say?
	And, you know, and you, I think, be honest enough to tell him, oh, yeah, no, he blamed me for not understanding the sanctity of marriage when I've never been divorced and he has.
	Well, then, yes, but how do I expect to look for someone with zero family issues if I don't bring to the table a perfect family that I come from?
	You know what I mean? So this is called a false dichotomy, right?
	Which is, how do I look for somebody with zero family issues?
	I mean, there is no such thing. The presence of issues is not the problem.
	But that implies that there will be red flags.
	No, no, because issues is not the problem.
	My wife and I have issues.
	My daughter and I have issues. Hey, you and I have had a couple of issues.
	The issues are not the problem.
	It's how you negotiate and navigate them.
	By that definition... The only red flags that could exist are inability to work through issues, not the presence of issues to begin with.
	Right. And you don't believe you can work through issues with your father.
	That's what I would get out of meeting you.
	I'd be like, okay, this lovely young lady does not believe at all that she can work through her issues with her father.
	And yet she still pretends to have a relationship with him.
	She still maintains some sort of contact with him, even though she knows she can't be honest with him.
	That's a red flag. Okay.
	Touche. No, I'm not trying to score points.
	No, no, no.
	That would be a red flag. And I would say, you know, if you and I just met and whatever, I mean, if we were just friends or whatever, I'd say, you know, I'm a big, thou shalt not bear false witness, right?
	And so I'd say, well, look, I mean, if your dad kind of insulted you that way when he was the source of the problem, I think you should talk to him about it.
	And if you decide not to, then I would say, I'm not quite sure you understand what love really means.
	Love means not allowing people we care about to persist in error.
	Yeah. You know, if someone you loved thought that they were taking a vitamin pill, but they were taking opiates, you'd knock that thing out of their hands, right?
	Yes.
	You don't let people you love persist in error.
	And you and I have never met.
	We may never meet again. And you are helping me not persist in error when I get things wrong.
	It's the first thing you said in this conversation, which I thank you for.
	You said there's things that you got wrong in your conversation with Bob.
	I'm like, please.
	I'm sure that we did, and please correct me.
	So you and I are just doing a flyby here.
	I care about you enough to not let you persist in error.
	You care about me enough to not let me persist in error.
	We've got to watch each other's backs.
	We don't have these big fly-eyes 360 views of the universe where the truth comes marching in with a big band fanfare and fireworks.
	We've got to watch each other's backs and remind us and keep us on the straight and narrow.
	And if you have relationships in your life where you know an important truth and you won't tell it to the other person, Then I'm inviting you to tweak the definition of love, to include.
	I don't lie to people and I don't let them persist in lies.
	And I don't want them to let me persist in lies either.
	It's funny that you say that because I think right there is the biggest reason I'm in the current relationship I'm in because he would never let me persist in error.
	Does he know about your relationship with your father?
	Does he know that you withhold truth from your father?
	No.
	has he encouraged you to stop withholding truth from someone you claim to love?
	I believe so.
	No, you would not.
	No, you would know it. You would know it.
	You would know that. That's not a vague thing.
	I'm going to give you a spark binary here.
	Sorry, this will take you back to your point of your finish, right?
	No, you would know that.
	Look, what I have said to you about your relationship with your father, you will now remember for the rest of your life and there will be no doubt about it.
	You may curse my name at times, you may think I'm a good guy at times, but you will never forget this, right?
	Correct. Correct. And if Bob had...
	I'm asking you both, and this is to Bob, he'll hear this too, right?
	You've got to up what it means to love someone.
	Because you guys both have big hearts.
	You're both very sensitive.
	You're both very intelligent. You're both very caring.
	But love is not avoidant.
	Love does not bow before delusion.
	To care about somebody means to tell them the truth, to ask them to tell you the truth, and to not let them persist in dangerous errors.
	Your father's vanity and pomposity regarding his own moral worth and his willingness to throw you under the bus as his child that he harmed by leaving, to sacrifice your happiness and your sense of self-worth and self-esteem for his mistake is terrible behavior.
	Doesn't mean he's a terrible guy.
	That behavior is terrible.
	If you let people persist in terrible behavior, that's not love.
	That's not love. Now, maybe when you confront him on his terrible behavior, he will get even more manipulative, he will get even more destructive, he will get even more dysfunctional.
	Okay, then you tell him that's happening.
	And you keep telling him what's happening for you.
	I've got a whole book on this called Real-Time Relationships.
	But you keep honestly telling him what's happening to you without necessarily blaming him.
	And at some point, he'll either give up the vanity or it will harden around him like a suit of armor he can no longer remove.
	And if you're in a relationship, or pretend to be in a relationship, where you simply cannot tell the truth, you cannot be real, you cannot be honest, because the other person will shut you down, We'll get passive aggressive.
	We'll get openly aggressive.
	We'll become avoidant.
	We'll insult you. We'll spread rumors behind your back.
	Whatever. I'm not saying you'd ever do all of these.
	But then you say, okay, I'm now in a relationship where I cannot tell the truth.
	I can't be in this relationship except by conforming to vainglorious unreality.
	Well, frankly, fuck that.
	Life's too short. Life is too short to swim in the unreal pea-soup fog of other people's self-inflicted bullshit.
	I tell the truth, though the skies fall.
	I tell the truth and shame the devil.
	I do not bear false witness.
	I'm not perfect, obviously.
	I mean, I'm as tempted and succumb to as many vices as anybody else, probably with far less excuse, but I at least have people around me who will call me on it, and I thank them for it.
	And if your father is persisting in a vain error, you know that that's harming his relationships right now.
	It is. Tell me, is he messing up his relationships now, other than with you?
	He went through, he got remarried and re-divorced way too quickly one other time, and it was a mess.
	Right. And if he wants to find any kind of love again, you allowing him to persist in this era is sealing him in a tomb of solitude and disappointment, right?
	It is, if I'm not honest about it.
	Right. You are cursing him.
	Now, it's a hell of a thing to have to do to parent your parent.
	I have sympathy.
	I really do. It's a terrible thing.
	But, you know, so many of us are raised by...
	Tall children, right?
	I mean just, you know, tall children.
	That if you kind of work that stuff out with your dad and your mom or whoever else is in your life that you can't be honest with, then you will find once you are real to everyone in your life, everyone who remains is a treasure.
	Once you're truly honest, open your heart, open your thoughts, open your feelings, don't back down, don't avoid, don't let people get away.
	We're insulting you and lying to you, even though they may claim no conscience intent and they might be right.
	But once you are truly real, everybody who's left with you is a brother or sister in arms and a boon companion in troubled times.
	And if you do this with your root relationships, your family of origin relationships, the certainty you will come to with regards to Bob will be very quick.
	You're trying to wag the dog by trying to figure out Bob without figuring out Mom and Dad.
	You figure out Mom and Dad, you'll figure out Bob.
	And the problem, of course, is that Bob...
	It's also allowing you to persist in error and also allowing others to persist in error in your life.
	Bob is also doubtless allowing his own friends, family, companions, whoever, to persist in error.
	And so maybe you can do this journey together.
	Maybe you can't. I don't know, obviously, because free will and all of that.
	But you just focus, in my humble opinion...
	Just tell the truth. Just tell the truth.
	Your dad offends you? Tell him.
	If you get sucky about it, tell him that too.
	I don't appreciate the suckiness.
	I don't like it. It makes me feel bad.
	This is why I didn't want to tell you the truth.
	I'm scared. I'm scared, Dad, because I don't want to lose respect for you, but when you behave in this kind of way, I look at you like a big child, and it's really hard for me, because I want to look at you as an authority figure, someone who...
	I asked you, Dad, I asked you, should I date an illegal...
	And you just made me feel shitty about my views on marriage, which were largely inflicted by you.
	You didn't actually help me.
	And now I'm two years in.
	And I'm stuck. And that's somewhat on you, because you're supposed to be helping me with these things.
	But then, of course, you know, I have the problem coming to you for advice about relationships.
	It's like going to that bald Canadian guy for advice on haircuts.
	It's not something that works, right?
	It's not something that really works.
	So, yeah, you've got to manifest that I mean, it's almost like radioactive honesty.
	You know, it's honesty visible from space.
	Yeah, it is. Yeah, if you manifest that, right?
	And Spock was pretty blunt with people, right?
	He told the truth.
	And I, you know, it's a phase of life thing and I'm sort of trying to transfer it down to younger people.
	But yeah, just tell the truth.
	And when you tell the truth, you'll quickly find out who values the truth in your life.
	It feels like you'll be left with no one, though, if you're completely honest.
	Okay, let's say that happens.
	Let's say that there's nobody in your life who survives you being honest.
	Then you have a choice.
	And your choice is this.
	You either spend the rest of your life enmeshed in lies, not being yourself, not manifesting, not being honest, hiding your true self, succumbing to the delusions and bullshit of other people and fading away like a ghost at sunrise, or You say, wow, I was really honest, and there's nobody left here, which means that the road is clear for other honest people to come into my life.
	Because honest people will not come into your life if you're surrounded by bullshit artists.
	They will evaluate you.
	This is why you and I met.
	I mean, it's an alternate universe.
	You and I met. I would do a very quick evaluation, and I would say, very nice young lady, very smart young lady, very attractive young lady.
	But, right, she is surrounded by people she can't be honest with.
	And so, if I'm honest with her, like, if I'm honest with her, most likely the people who are dishonest with her and force her to be dishonest or impel her to be dishonest, that I will get a lot of blowback from them and it's going to be a whole giant mess.
	And I may talk to you as a friend about, you know, the value of honesty, I guess as we're doing here.
	But as far as, you know, you being ready to You know, be a bride and a mother and all of that.
	It's like, you know, she's got some work to do to raise up her honesty because if you allow your father to get away with dishonesty and manipulation, do you know what you will expect of your kids?
	That they will let you do it too.
	Yeah. And then when your kids are blunt and honest with you, if you haven't gone through that process with your parents, if your kids are blunt and honest with you, you'll freak out.
	Because they'll be tripping across a life wire in a landmine they don't even know is there.
	Yeah. So being honest with your parents is the best preparation to being a good parent.
	I've at least done it with my mom.
	We're working on it, actually.
	That is fantastic. We've set aside 30 minutes a week and we're doing it.
	We're just being completely honest how we hurt each other and things like that that I need to do with my dad.
	Right. I mean, fantastic.
	And, you know, for what it's worth, pass along to your mother.
	My congratulations and admiration for what she's doing with you.
	I think that's wonderful. Wonderful.
	And rare. Startly rare, but it's great to hear when it happens.
	So, yeah, so I think if you work on that stuff and try not to say to yourself what your intentions are.
	I know the last thing I'll say, right?
	So you say, well...
	But I only want what's best for him.
	That's just like something you read.
	Like the parents say to their kids, I only want what's best for my kids.
	It's like, do you send them to terrible government schools where they're taught to hate their culture?
	Well, yeah. Do you put them on psychotropic meds if they displease the teacher?
	Well, yeah. And you could go on.
	Do you feed them food that would kill a pig?
	Well, yeah. But it's on the food pyramid or whatever, right?
	But then they say, but I only want what's best for my kids.
	You are a very complex human being, as we all are, and you are full of many layers, ambivalence, contradictions.
	I call it the mycosystem, like we think of I, like just some singular entity.
	There's parts of you that want to tell the truth to your dad.
	There's parts of you that are terrified of telling the truth to your dad, and that complexity is perfectly natural and perfectly healthy.
	But when you reduce it to, well, I just want the best for Bob.
	Then you cease exploring.
	It's like the end of the road, right?
	It's like the end of the road or bridge out.
	You just turn around, right? Okay, there's nothing more to explain because I know 100% of all of my motives is like, yeah, maybe, but probably not, right?
	So keep exploring. You're a fascinating person.
	Just keep exploring and try not to just jump to conclusions that often tend to be self-praising.
	Well, I just want the best for him.
	It's like, of course you care about him, right?
	But, you know, he has come out more unhappy now than when...
	think that's your fault but if you say well hey bob i love you i just want nothing but the best from you for you then all of his unhappiness is solely him and that's a hell of a burden right like all of your skepticism about marriage is solely you and nothing to do with your dad and all bob's unhappiness is solely him and nothing to do with you it's like ah you know it's complex it's complex and And being willing to explore that complexity is why long-term relationships and lifelong marriages work because we're all fascinating.
	We're all fascinating, if that makes sense.
	It does. So what do you think?
	Good convo? Helpful?
	Useful? Extraordinarily helpful.
	I have a lot of work to do.
	All right. All right. Listen.
	Go ahead. Go ahead. Sorry. I talked a lot.
	Go. I'll be quiet.
	I'll even mute myself.
	Go. No, no, no.
	I just wanted to thank you.
	I think there were definitely some things I needed to hear, and I appreciate that.
	Will you keep me posted? I will.
	If you want me to, I will. Oh, I absolutely do.
	I always want to know how these things turn out.
	And give my best to Bob.
	I really appreciate your time tonight, and have yourself a great weekend.
	All right. Thank you so much, Stefan.

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