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March 29, 2021 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
02:08:50
FIRST FREEDOMAIN PEACEFUL PARENTING ROUNDTABLE!
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Good morning everybody, Stefan Molyneux.
I'm here completely alone in the room.
Definitely alone. I said I'd be quiet, but I lied.
Yeah, so my daughter here, Isabella, is here.
She's going to answer some questions because, you know, as parents we're kind of providing a service to our kids and you always want to hear from the customers.
I love hearing from you guys, the audience, and of course we like hearing from the kids as well.
And I just wanted to give a very brief introduction to the general philosophy that I've taken with regards to parenting.
I refer to it as peaceful parenting and that's What it is, without a doubt.
And the general idea behind peaceful parenting is I listened to what I was told as a kid, and I implemented it, which apparently is a huge sin in society.
So when I was a kid, I was told, don't use force to get what you want.
Don't push, don't hit, don't yell, don't scream, and for heaven's sakes, don't call people names.
I mean, names were like the The Molotov cocktails thrown in other people's personality tents.
That was really, really bad. So don't use force to get what you want.
Don't use names. Find a way to negotiate.
Don't take. Don't steal.
Don't lock other kids in closets.
Don't hit them, of course. And so when I was a kid, I thought, well, you know, One of the most dangerous things a child can do is listen to the moral instruction of their elders and actually implement it when they get older.
Ooh, that's pretty bad.
So when I grew up, I was like, okay, so I was told all these things by my elders, which means that my elders really believed in those things.
And although I experienced violence in my childhood at home, and to a tiny degree, well, I was caned once or twice in boarding school, but other than that, not in school.
So I thought, okay, well, my home is sort of off...
The charts as far as things go.
It's off the reservation as far as the morals go.
There was a minor hiccup in boarding school, but for the most part, that's what society says.
I'd turn on the TV and I would see all of these parents on TV always negotiating with their kids, always reasoning with their kids, never yelling at their kids, never hitting their kids.
Never calling their kids names or ignoring or neglecting them.
The parents were always reasonable and engaged and peaceful.
So I was like, okay, well, this is what I was told as a kid.
This is the kind of parenting that everyone sees.
This is obviously the kind of parenting that people want to see, because if nobody had wanted to see reasonable, peaceful, family-type-style parenting, then it wouldn't have existed.
We'd have seen other things.
So, yeah, it was like, this is what society is all about.
And so...
Before I became a parent, I started the show, started talking about peaceful parenting.
I was also, you know, I grew up seeing a whole bunch of movies and shows and reading books and so on about people getting out of abusive relationships, right?
So there'd be some woman in peril, this woman of the week in peril, who would be, had some mean guy who was controlling her and bullying her, and next thing you know, she'd be plotting her escape and getting out and all of that.
So that seemed pretty clear.
I remember watching Kindergarten Cop, where Arnold Schwarzenegger beats up an abusive dad.
So it seemed to me that the...
And this is what society says, right?
The care and protection of children is all we care about.
And I believe the children are our future and so on, right?
Yeah. So then I was like, okay, well, this is what we do as a society.
We're all about the protection of children, getting out of abusive relationships.
And so I began talking about this in my show.
And for those of you who've been around for a while...
I wouldn't say it went spectacularly well to reflect society's values back to them.
But nonetheless, you've got to stay the course.
When you're into ethics, integrity, and virtue, you find out what the right thing to do is, and then you do it.
And if you've got to take some consequences, well, that's just...
The nature of the game when it comes to ethics.
So, yeah, the philosophy of peaceful parenting is we have to treat our kids the very best of anyone in society because they're the only people in relationships with no choice.
I mean, other than our quote relationship with the government, which is not exactly a choice.
But yeah, what we do is...
I was also told, of course, where you have greater power, you have greater moral responsibility.
Like if you're the boss and you ask out your secretary for a date, that's not good because you hold her career, her paycheck in your hand and it's not an equal relationship.
And so where you have greater power, you have greater moral responsibility and there's no greater power difference in the world than that between parent and child.
If you don't like your country, you can move countries...
If you don't like your taxes, you can reduce your income.
And if you don't like your job, you can quit.
If you don't like your girlfriend or boyfriend, you can break up.
And so you absolutely have choice in all of your adult relationships.
Children, right? You didn't vote for me, right?
Didn't choose anything.
Just happened to be born into this family.
And so I have the greatest power differential.
I have the most authority, so to speak.
And Isabella, and everybody's child, is in a completely unchosen relationship.
So... What I said pretty early on to Izzy, as I said, look, I have to parent.
Like, if you could choose any parent in the world, you'd choose me, right?
I mean, you have to have that thought experiment, right?
That you could imagine. So far, I'd choose him.
So far, you'd choose me. Maybe, you know, later today.
Later today? No, no idea.
But yeah, now. But that's the thing, right?
So, just you've got to parent like your kids could wake up every morning, snap their fingers, and replace you with Willy Wonka.
Or Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.
Oh yeah, I've heard of that. We read that a long time ago.
That thing was scary. It really was.
Yeah, yeah. Nothing more fun than a creepy unmarried guy who wants to hang out with kids.
So that's the general philosophy behind peaceful parenting.
And the wonderful thing, of course, is we know that when you...
Don't use force. You have to find other creative ways to deal with things, right?
If you're not going to steal things, you have to find a way to add value so that people will trade you for stuff.
When we got rid of force in employer, quote, employee relationships by ending slavery, we got the modern world.
It was all very cool. And when you don't have force on the table, aggression, force, control, dominance, bullying...
Have you ever gone in a timeout?
No. Ever been locked in your room?
No. Have I ever raised my voice at you?
No. Have I ever yelled at you?
No. Have I ever called you a name other than Boo?
No. Wait, no, you've called me love.
Oh yes. So we don't, you know, you don't do it.
You don't use force against children.
I mean, it's one of these things that should be pretty obvious, but it's obviously still quite controversial because the vast majority of parents, not this group included, of course, do use force in their parenting.
Just straight up spanking and so on is unfortunately a very, very big deal.
Just wanted to give a very brief introduction.
I know everyone's shocked that it was in fact brief.
Nobody more than? Me.
Yes, nobody more than Izzy is shocked that it's brief.
So I'm very happy if you guys wanted to give us an introduction.
Don't forget, I will mute and don't forget to unmute yourself.
To have a chat.
And I guess we might as well go clockwise.
Sorry, Luna, that makes you a little bit on the last side.
Apologize for that. But if you want to go Tim, Natalie, Jared, Luna, if you guys wanted to introduce yourself, a little bit of your history with peaceful parenting, I guess if you are a parent, it might be worth mentioning.
And we'll go from there. Yeah, hi.
My name is Tim and I was on a couple of the crypto shows and I'll do whatever it takes to go on the show.
I'll have crypto. I'll have kids.
Just get me on the show. Rent some kids with crypto.
Yeah and then so I have three kids.
One, three and five.
They're all girls and the show has really helped me think a lot about Peaceful parenting.
And I think that's really necessary.
I have my regrets about You know parts of the time that I've been a parent and it has been something I really regret like a lot and I'm really thankful that you know on the show you know it comes up on your show like a couple times a month at least where you'll like be very convicting about it and without that You know,
I don't know if it would have stopped so early with the spanking.
And so I just really appreciate That my kids are going to have a better childhood.
I'm going to have a better conversation.
You know, like my oldest one, you know, I used to say, oh, well, spanking is bad, but I struggle with it.
And then she goes, I know you need to stop, you know, but the other day she said, you don't spank anymore.
You know, like it was something that was in the past that doesn't happen anymore.
And I'm just really glad that that's how she sees me now, but that doesn't happen anymore.
So... That's a little bit of where I'm at.
I appreciate that.
Thank you. What are the ages of your kids?
Yeah, one, three, and five.
And I just want to say, I never spanked until there was more than one.
And then also the ages between two and three.
If you didn't grow up, I didn't grow up with little kids around.
So if you're not used to what that age range is like, You could be surprised.
You really need to ready yourself for parenthood.
Because when you're actually in it, it's different than the way you think it is.
I just also wanted to mention that we can actually hear your children in the background, specifically not allowed.
I'm just kidding. The more the merrier.
Extra guests on the show.
Extra guests on the show. What was your spanking regularity and what grounds?
And was there something about, I'm sorry, I know we get into this conversation.
No, no, we'll come back to that.
No, we'll come back to that. Okay. If we wanted to go to the next person, a quick intro, if you don't mind, and then we'll get into the cues from the audience and stuff that I have as questions.
Can you hear me? Yes, feel free to speak up.
You sound like somebody who's not standing out in a restaurant at the moment, but go for it.
All right. My name is Natalie, and I am mom to three kids.
My daughter is newly seven, my son is just about four, and then I have a 19-month-old son.
So one girl, two boys.
It's a fun ride, but nothing like becoming a parent has taught me so much that I am not in control of everything.
I have three small people that have their own ideas, their own preferences, their own personalities.
And that's something I have to remind myself all the time, like, oh, it's not, it's not personal that they don't want to do this thing that I'm trying to get them to do.
They have their own agenda.
And that's, that's what they're, like, they're supposed to have that, you know, they're supposed to be exploring and testing and asking questions and Well, and of course, we all grew up with my way or the highway, right? And so actually negotiating with people, it's just like, this is the parent's will.
You're supposed to do what the parent wants.
And if you don't do what the parent wants, they escalate until you comply.
And not doing that is quite a challenge.
Yes, absolutely.
And then I just wanted to say that I... Somebody shared your show with me back before I was a parent and I'm really grateful for that and I had a chance to put some things into action with...
I used to babysit or take care of kids and I was able to put some of that into action before I had my own kids and saw how like just How much it made sense and how effective it is to,
you know, like, why would you take something like that you intimately know about a child and use it against them, you know, for punishments or whatever, like that, like, how damaging is that for, you know, relationship and connection, which is really the only thing you have to, you know, help Get your child on board with what you want them to do.
It's your connection and their, like, trust in you.
And so why would you erode that?
Why would you risk that to, you know, get short-term compliance?
So anyway, it's been really wonderful to have your show as a resource over the years, and I really appreciate it, and I'm honored to be here today.
Appreciate that. Sorry, you wanted to say anything?
I wanted to say about your kids with their opinions and choosing everything they do and stuff.
I'm definitely a lot like that.
Yes, you do. I remember in the spring last year, we did those videos.
I was like, yeah, the tadpoles, and I was growing them in hatcheries and stuff like that, right?
So my mom was not a huge fan of me picking up stuff from nature and...
Well, you know, tadpoles and disease, we've all got a little terrified of that.
And also, when you would go, when we were in China, and you'd go to the bat cave.
Okay, that was never a thing, and I've never been in China.
But yeah, so you were saying about mom?
Well, I mean, it's just like, I catch a lot of critters and amphibians and stuff, and whenever we go to tropical places, lizards are all mine.
My mom's definitely not a huge fan of that, but...
How much did mom want you to grab the lizard the size of a T-Rex in Australia?
I think it wasn't the size of a T-Rex.
Sorry, larger than a T-Rex.
It was quite vague. Let's just put it that way.
It really was. Not much at all.
Not much at all. Like, I touched it and she's like, okay, you can let go now.
Yeah, yeah. But honestly, I think it's really important for kids to have their own ideas and opinions and for you to let that happen and ask them more about it and talk to them about it and stuff.
Because, I mean, all this creative stuff, like the laptop or tablet or whatever you're using came from creative ideas and interesting stuff.
Maybe your kids could be some great inventor.
But if you just crush all the...
Personality, not personality, sorry, like the creativity and ideas and stuff, then that probably will be way less likely to happen.
Yeah, we end up with less cool stuff in the world because people are just kind of shelled up and like armadillo, like rolling into a ball kind of thing.
Yeah. Appreciate that, and thank you.
I'm not sure how you got time off on a Sunday from three kids, but we'll obviously get back into where they duct taped to the ceiling or something like that, which is actually kind of cool.
We'll see a little sign come down from above.
Need pancakes, Mom, or something like that because it's Sunday.
All right, if we wanted to move on, I think, was it Jared who was next?
No, sorry, yeah, it was, yeah, Jared?
Yeah. Hi there, folks.
My name is Jared Woodard. I am not a parent.
I would love to be in the future.
If there's any available ladies that are looking, let me know.
My interest is from the show, from philosophy, and I just want to be playing at it from a more philosophical side.
I have babysat for good friends.
I've seen this peaceful parenting in practice and how great, how wonderful it is.
I unfortunately did not grow up with peaceful parents like so many other people, and it's thanks to Steph that I got, you know, to see the other side of that and these much, much greater arguments and really Eternally grateful for that and just happy to participate.
Thank you very much. Thank you, Luna, for your patience.
Go for it. Okay.
Hi, I'm Luna. I just want to start off by saying I'm pretty nervous.
I've been listening to Free Domain for 11 years now, and Steph has really shaped who I am as a person and definitely as a parent.
So I'm just going to try not to cry.
Crying is not allowed.
There's no crying in philosophy.
Go ahead. So, I have a two-year-old daughter.
She just turned two on her last Sunday, and I have a nine-month-old son, and we've been raising them peacefully since birth.
I've had a lot of time to think about how I wanted to be a parent.
So, in addition to freedom, I also listen to Janet Lansbury, who practices the Rye Philosophy, that's R-I-E, and we've been practicing that since birth with both of our kids, and they're just totally awesome people.
I'm constantly amazed by what a two-year-old can do.
Like, I didn't realize the level of compassion and empathy that such a little kid could have, and I think part of that is just being raised peacefully.
Yeah, no, I think that's a good point.
So we were talking about this the other day that you want to get your kids verbal as quickly as humanly possible.
And that aspect of things, the quicker you can get them to be verbal, the quicker you can negotiate.
And there's no better way to get them to be verbal than to start negotiating early, right?
Yeah, and also I remember when I was younger, like about the...
I forgot the words, sorry, that you said, but the stuff that little kids can do when it comes to being verbal.
I mean, I remember I always wanted to say more stuff and do more stuff when I was younger, but I just didn't have the words for it, or I didn't really know how to phrase the sentences.
You just had that right now. No, right now my brain just completely fogged on me.
Yeah, brain freeze. It happens. When I was younger, I just didn't know the words, or I didn't really know how to phrase a sentence when I was like two to four or around that age.
So, I mean, yeah, I'm sure I just have some memories of that.
So, yeah, little kids can definitely do a lot more than you think they can.
And that frustration, too.
Like, if you're learning a foreign language, you have ideas in your head, but you don't know how to phrase them in the foreign language.
And we're learning... The kid is learning a foreign language when they're born.
Yeah, but it's used to his goo-goo-ga-ga.
Yeah, yeah, goo-goo-ga-ga, right. And so, remember that the kid...
One of the things that happens is the kid knows...
what they want to say they just don't have the words they don't have the language so the more and the quicker you can teach them the language of negotiation uh the better and that's something we you know started pretty early we did have a question about um bribery bribery um and we we had a little bit a little bit of that Yeah, a little bit. A little bit?
Do you remember? Potty training.
Potty training, that's right. They'd give me Skittles every time.
Like, they'd give me a Skittle every time I got it correct.
Yeah, give you a Skittle, right? Now I love Skittles.
And potty trained.
Yes, I am potty trained and I love Skittles.
It's a win-win. No, and so, I mean, that's an interesting question, right?
So people, a lot of parents think that bribery is really terrible.
Like, we all just got jobs and are teenagers for the altruism of contributing to the economy and we weren't paid.
You know, everybody gets bribed all the time.
And bribery has got this negative connotation because I like politics and stuff like that or democracy.
But I don't see anything wrong with a positive incentive for a better behavior when the child can't figure out the consequences because they're too young, right?
So I think that that's sort of my particular thought about it.
Bribery or positive incentives for behavior is how adult life kind of works.
You either get a positive incentive like you get a paycheck or you're avoiding a negative incentive like not going to jail or whatever it is.
So we have rewards and disincentives in life all the time.
And so I don't view any particular issue with that.
And the other one is the question of competition.
Competition, tiny, tiny bit more of a dad thing than a mom thing.
I like competition. Yeah, yeah.
So if we're playing a game, what do I say?
What are we playing for? What are we playing for?
It will be like halfway through and you're like, wait, we never discuss what we're playing for.
Well, no, if I'm winning. Of course.
If I'm losing, what do I say?
You'll say... It's the game that's the fun part.
We don't have to play for things. Right, right.
I was thinking, like, of all the things you have said, like, what was the most common, and yeah, you know what, you're right.
But, I mean, it's often like, you'll lower the stakes or something like that, you'll be like, oh, why don't we play the 15 instead of 11, or you'll be like, you'll say...
No, no, rock, paper, scissors. If I lose the first one, what do I say?
Play out of three. Best three out of five.
So, of course, you keep going on until you get what you want.
Like with my mom, it will be like, what are we playing for?
My mom's like, let's just play for the fun of the game.
It's like, no, we have to play for something.
We can't just play for the fun of the game.
Right. But that's life.
You play for things, right?
I mean, I'm playing for an audience.
I'm playing for donations. I'm playing for, you know, if you want to get a job, if you want to get a boyfriend or a girlfriend, you're in competition with everyone else.
So life is about playing for stuff.
And so we certainly have that particular approach.
So what do you guys think about, and I'm happy to take, we've got people online who can ask questions and bring comments in as well, but what do you guys think about in terms of bribery?
There are two B words, bribery and bad, bad, bad, no bribery, or how does that work for you guys?
I could speak to that because I'm in the middle of potty training right now.
Do you need any skills?
It's been an adventure for the last two months.
We don't do any sort of bribery.
I was afraid that if I bribed her with anything, the day that she doesn't want a Skittle or an M&M is the day that I get pee all over my floor.
I'm sorry to interrupt. You just fell off the chair because the day that she doesn't want a Skittle or an M&M, what day is that?
That doesn't happen to kids.
Is that a day? They will take their least favorite dessert as long as it's sugar.
I can confirm from a very personal standpoint, Luna, that it will be at least 54.
Because I'm 54, do I like Skittles and M&Ms?
Yeah. I certainly do, particularly the peanut ones.
Okay, so yeah, that probably is not about to happen, but go ahead.
That won't happen. Well, I just, I never wanted to engage in bribery, as far as potty training goes, because I'm afraid the day she doesn't want a star, like a gold star.
People are big in the stickers right now, as best as sugar.
So yeah, the day that she doesn't want sugar or gold stars, she's just gonna let loose all over the floor or her crib.
So we don't do any bribery, but we do positive rewards and we do consequences.
So she has to clean up her mess or help me clean up.
Her mess, if she makes a mess, and when she does get her pee or poop in the potty, we do lightning bolt high fives, where you shoot lightning bolts out of your hand.
It sounds like...
I'm sorry, could you just do that once more, though, but with feeling?
Because I felt that was very just, like, lazy, with all due respect.
Give me the full lightning high fives.
Yeah, so we shoot lighting bolts out of our hands.
She gets to flush, which she's pretty excited about.
She loves washing her hands.
There's like no hand washing involved.
It's just spraying her bathroom with water.
So she gets all the benefits from doing what she's supposed to be doing, but there are benefits that make sense that go along with using the potty.
You get to flush Your waste buy and you get to wash your hands and get everything soapy and wet.
All right, Tim, I've got a feeling that this juggling of bribery slash rewards slash payments slash giving your kids a crypto wallet at the age of two and a half months, is that something that goes on in your house?
I literally cannot ask Pascal to do anything without her saying, okay, let's make a deal.
I'm not kidding. It's every single request.
That sounds familiar. One thing about that is...
I'm sorry, can you all hear me okay?
Yeah, we can hear you fine.
Keep the mic close up and that's totally fine.
We're here for the noise, so go for it.
Yeah, so just one thing I thought was kind of interesting about it was my wife really doesn't like doing that.
She says, no, your daddy makes deals like I make rules when I ask you to do something.
Wait, I'm sorry. I just need to mute Isabella because she may be revealing crucial family secrets here.
Sorry, just one sec.
You seem to have quite a strong reaction to that.
That's exactly right. You need to be aware of?
What? So you're always, like, for the rewards, and, like, if we go out, we'll always get a little bit of sugar or something, and my mom's, like, rules.
And that's it. Oh, just rules, right?
Yeah, yeah. She does rules, and she, like, okay, like, we'll get sugar, but, I mean, it's not very often.
But when I... When we...
So I'm not sure why this is funny in any way, shape, or form.
Go ahead. Well, when you and I go out, it's just, we'll always get a little bit of sugar, even if it's like a weekday.
We're trying to do like no sugar.
Yeah, Monday to Friday, no sugar.
And then, well, no sugar, Monday to Friday and or not being with dad alone.
Yeah. Okay. But my mom's a lot more strict about that rule.
Like, no, you get nothing.
Wait, a lot more strict? You mean I'm some level on strictness?
No, you're not. No, just no. Like, mom has standards, dad has sugar.
Okay. Well, obviously, I'm obviously concerned about whether you want to spend time with me without sugar bribery.
That's really the issue.
That's pretty funny. Okay, sorry, sorry, Tim.
Go ahead. Yeah, it's definitely a goal of mine to get her negotiating framework started in her head as early as possible so that way that part of her brain grows as much as I can have influence over it.
So I really try to encourage negotiating and then don't do it unless it's just something I really can't negotiate over.
I don't know, like running out of the street or something.
And one of the consequences is if you negotiate for something, how strict are you with the outcome?
Like, if she does her end of it, like, I try really hard to do whatever it is, even if I always do it, I think.
Is that what you mean? Yeah, yeah, I mean, because it can be, you make a deal, and then the kid doesn't do whatever or doesn't achieve it, and then it can be like, oh, well, that's fine, you know, we'll give you half or whatever, but is it very much like, daddy's like the market, man, if you lose money on the stock, you lose money on the stock, that kind of thing, right?
Well, currently, they're still kind of too young to...
Like, even though five years old, they're still too young to really do very...
To have a lot of responsibility, like cleaning up.
Like, they could do a little bit of cleaning, but besides for that, there's not much she can really...
Did you say five or 54?
I couldn't quite hear that. I'd say 54.
So, I don't know.
I'm trying to remember, what do we negotiate over...
Sometimes it's cleaning up, but usually it's other stuff.
I'm not sure.
No worries. Alright, if we wanted to move to Natalie, what's your relationship to this reinforcement stuff?
Yeah, I think...
I don't usually call it bribery, but we totally...
I totally...
Yeah, I totally bribe my...
My daughter who's seven we're homeschooling and between like the school stuff and you know I don't know I call it school as shorthand for education and learning our home learning but we you know she'd rather play like she wants to Make stuff and, you know, run outside with the chickens and her brothers.
And, you know, so we do find ways that are like, okay, like, this isn't what you would choose to do right now.
But we do have to get some things done.
You know, she takes piano lessons.
Okay, like, if you know, she has agreed, like, she really wants to learn how to play the piano.
She just doesn't really feel like practicing, you know, like, I just I'd rather play.
Like, well, you know, you don't have to learn how to play piano.
That's okay. Hey, it's called playing piano, kid.
Sorry. But if you're going to, if we're going to do lessons, then, you know, you need to commit to practicing.
And so even though, like, there are things that she has to do that she's, you know, we try to find ways to, like, you know, you know, I try to make it, like, Times of day that are good for her, that she's not fighting hunger or tiredness or fatigue, you know, like, or when, you know, things are not super appealing with, you know, play with her brothers or whatever.
But once, you know, we strip that away, like, I totally use, you know, Jelly beans as needed.
You know, like, okay, if you can, you know, or gummy bears.
There's some really good gummy bears out there.
Like, so good.
But it's like, okay, I'll give you two gummy bears.
Hey, kids, I got some great gummy bears for you in the windowless van.
Come on in. There's a keyboard there, too, but don't panic.
Sorry, guys. Oh, my gosh.
Oh, and, you know, if you can, you know, there's something she was struggling with that, Like fidgeting you know it's like okay if you can get through this whole song with your left foot on the floor I'll give you two gummy I'll give you two gummy bears and she and and you know not tipping the bench um she's like a little short to like sit on it really and she she totally did it uh you know with the incentive the extra reminder you know without like so I think incentives like that can can help sometimes in place of like the nagging or like reminding like oh you know or we started in between her schoolwork it's like okay we're gonna start with a you know chapter of your you know some books with short chapters like all we'll read together a chapter and then we'll do you know our language arts and then we'll read a chapter and then we'll do You know,
math and then we'll do a chapter and do piano.
Like, so just like sandwiching those good things in between, you know, the things that she really prizes and wants to do in between the things that are like a little more of a drag, which I do as an adult.
Those are things I do myself to like, okay, you know, I'm going to You know, make myself my favorite cup of tea while I, you know, do my taxes or whatever.
Like, this is a drag, but here's this little thing that's gonna soften it.
We do that stuff all the time, right?
I think that's... I think incentives is probably a better word for it than bribery because, I mean, it's not, it's like...
Yeah, I think... I think it's like the same thing, but it's not necessarily just bribery.
I mean, Bribie does have that.
So here's the thing too, right?
So there's a hump, right? You're learning piano, it's kind of a drag, and you kind of give your kids the incentives to get over that drag aspect of things to the point where it's fun.
Should we tell the story of you learning to read?
I don't actually remember that too well anymore.
I remember I hated it.
She really did. She really did, but I knew.
It's like I do it myself or I don't do it anymore.
Oh, let's not talk about the trauma of all of the twitchy teachers that have been in the wake of Isabella's strong will and self-direction.
But hey, I mean, it wasn't like I learned a lot of great philosophy from other people either.
I just had invented it myself.
So that's all a self-starter thing.
So we would put a computer on the TV and a keyboard and we would just go over the wood drills.
And you really, really didn't like it.
We didn't like it.
But I knew, of course, the whole point is that you forget how difficult it is and then you have the joy of reading and you blaze through books pretty quickly.
I was like three or four then, right? Yeah, about three, three and a half.
I think I was like close to four.
Since it's that young, I didn't really remember much, so it wasn't like...
It would really affect me later on in life when it comes to learning new really, really hard things.
Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, you know, we didn't do it to the point where there was massive conflict, but to be like, yeah, let's learn some words.
And, of course, she'd see me reading a lot.
And, you know, when you've got that, you know, before they become teenagers and they, you know, want kind of the opposite of who you are sometimes, when they're looking up to you, what did you say this morning?
The little kids look at their parents like...
Oh, yeah. Little kids look at their parents basically like gods because, like...
That's basically the only...
I don't really know how to put it exactly, but yeah, that's kind of what I've seen from other kids and also kind of remember myself.
Well, they're doing comprehensible things.
They're larger than life.
And so there is that.
So when they want to emulate you, that's when you want to try and get as much of that stuff in...
As possible. Because later it's tougher, right?
You want to put up a gold role model for your kids.
Man, I couldn't say that for some reason. Yeah, yeah.
Role model's a lot easier. I mean, you know, like the phase where some of the parents with the younger kids are going through where the kids are just blazing through language.
You don't even know where they're getting it from.
And there's new words all the time.
And it's like, I didn't teach her that word or anything like that.
Yeah, I remember you were saying that.
You remembered that about me. Oh, yeah.
It was like, what weird portal are all these words coming in from?
Because, you know, she was homeschooled and all that.
So, yeah, so that emulation phase, that's when you want to try and layer in a lot of really good behavior.
And so, yeah, the bribery.
Now, Jared, did you want to add anything to that?
Because, again, I know you're talking about babysitting experiences, but I don't want to cut you out of that.
Yes, actually, it was Luna's kids.
I was babysitting. Actually, her daughter while her second was on the way.
And during that, I don't recall.
I was adopting however their practices were, so I was listening to our resources for infant educare books on my way there and just trying to do that, be consistent in whatever they've been doing as much as possible.
Of course, You know, I didn't do it as well as them, but it was good enough.
Everybody survived and was happy.
But as far as, like, bribing for myself, I think I would be a big, big advocate of it, like negotiation, making deals, finding rewards and incentives, win-win situations.
Like, that's definitely something I remember for myself growing up, and my parents would want something, and Just thinking, this is something you want.
I could care less about this.
What's in it for me?
I personally think negotiations are great.
Now, the hard part I would find is there are some non-negotiables.
And that's something I don't look forward to, is going from like that, fun, here's Skittles, and boom, boom, boom, but no, this is off the table, you know, walking out into the street, so on and so forth, you know, that's an easy one, but how to get that across in as happy a way as possible, you know, or as positive of an experience as possible for the kids.
But those non-negotiables to me come down to a trust issue, right?
So if your kids know that, you know, you care about them, you want the best for them, and you've kind of built up that credibility with good negotiation, then when you, well, first of all, you want to try and avoid the situations where those, you know, keep your kids away from the road and all of that stuff.
But what you want to do is you want to say, you can't do this You know, and you can diagram, you know, the road, the toy cars, the plasticine person getting run over, like, whatever it is, you can get it across in some manner.
But I think if the kids trust you enough, then when you say no, even if you can't explain the whole thing, they'll be like, okay, well, he's right about 99% of the stuff seems to be the 1% that I can't quite follow.
Yeah. I mean, this is all life, right?
I mean, you know, those horrible relationships.
We've read about some of these online where the guy's like, okay, so I broke into my wife's cell phone because I needed to see who she was getting messages from.
You know, this kind of stuff, right?
I mean, that's a nightmare, right?
If you don't trust your partner enough to not do that, then I don't think you should really be together.
Yeah, I mean, you know, my wife is not in the room.
I'm going on the general assumption she's not setting fire to the place at the moment.
That's my general assumption.
I don't know. I mean, Mom. Yeah, yeah.
So far, 100% of the time, I've been right about that.
I mean, obviously, the 1% could be pretty bad, but that's just a general trust thing, right?
So if I say no about something in general, you know, we'll try and explain it.
If it's kind of a rush, you'll be like, eh, okay, and, you know, maybe we'll talk about it later, but...
Or if you say you don't want to do something, you know, I'll obviously try and encourage or whatever slash incentive.
Incentive is the word you use, right?
Incentive. It's not bribery, it's incentives.
It's not bribery, it's incentives. But, you know, you know your thoughts and, you know, I never want to force anything through.
That would be pretty terrible.
So let's talk about, and it's kind of ironic because we're all looking at screens at the moment, but a big question, of course, that's come up, particularly in the endless pandemic hell, is screen time.
Well, Steph, before we go on, Jerry added something in the text.
He said, we started negotiating very early and cannot do anything without making a deal.
Oh, yeah, yeah. No, he mentioned that.
And that's, yeah, that's good.
I mean, you kind of want to set that up, right?
You start negotiating early, you set that as a template.
And, you know, that's what you do with your husband and your wife.
Where do you go on vacation? Back when you could go on vacation, you negotiate about that kind of stuff.
You don't just sit there and say, hey, man.
We're going to Antigua or I'm locking you in the room until you think about what you've done or not done, which is go to Antigua, right?
So you negotiate with these things and, you know, of course, if you have parents who are negotiating with each other, then the kid sees that too and that's kind of how you resolve things and that's for the best.
All right. I think Tim has now moved to an undisclosed location.
It looks pretty much like the inside of a sugar cube.
Do I have that correct? They let me out.
Excellent. All right.
Hopefully that's not the windowless van we mentioned earlier.
All right. So yeah, let's talk about screen time.
And again, we'll shuffle around and go clockwise.
Luna, if you wanted to start, I mean, because, you know, I've had that question a lot.
And it's something we've worked with in our family as well.
It's not the easiest challenge in the world.
So how does that work?
With ours, you know, it's TV. Make your eyes go square.
Don't sit too close to the TV and all that.
But tablets are a whole different thing.
So what's going on in your household, Luna?
We don't do any screens.
Yeah, okay, I'm not muted.
We don't do any screens.
It's kind of funny.
My daughter thinks phones are just for selfies.
And we have introduced her to a little bit of music, but we never have the screen facing her.
And it's kind of funny because she thinks there's only like three artists or four artists in this world.
There's Judy Garland.
She can listen to Somewhere Over the Rainbow a thousand times a day.
It's Introducing your kids to music is a real double-edged sword because they have a level of repetition compulsion that would get you heavily medicated as an adult.
You better introduce them to something that has a lot of different parts of the song because you will...
Like Millionaire Waltz, right?
That's the song you like because it's got some variety in it, right?
It will go... And also...
What's the other one?
Bohemian... Bohemian Rhapsody.
Oh, yeah, yeah. That's right.
If you don't introduce them to something that has a lot of different...
Like, I don't know, verses and notes and stuff.
But the other classes that your kids will in turn introduce you to, I mean, Izzy's introduced me to a bunch of new music.
Yeah. Favorite artists at the moment.
Go! Oh my gosh. Well, I like Queen a lot.
Yeah, yeah. I know, it's like something you introduced me to.
Goat Singer. Sabrina, what?
Goat Singer. Oh, yeah, Fouizia.
Fawzia. Fawzia. I don't know how you say it.
No, she's very good. Okay, she's actually very good, but she has a bit of that goat troll.
She's got a little, no, tiny, greatest of all time, I would say, G-O-A-T. Yeah, okay.
Sabrina Carpenter, I've heard some of her songs.
We like some of the not-dark side of Billie Eilish.
True. And who does the thumbs?
Oh, that's Sabrina Carpenter, right? That's Sabrina Carpenter.
Sorry, we'll get back to you in a sec.
We're just having a musical interlude here, so I promise we'll be right back.
When did you fall out of love?
Who was that, Sam? That's Alicia Cara.
Alicia Cara and Dupa Looper?
Dua Lipa. Dua Lipa?
No, it's Dua Lipa!
Lipa Lauda, I think that's her name, so that's that as well.
So yeah, that does go both ways.
Sorry to completely hijack you, but you didn't give us a skittle, so clearly we're just going to interrupt.
Sorry, go ahead.
The other artists my daughter knows are Celine Dion, and she knows her because we were learning the concept of near and far, so of course I had to play My Heart Will Go On.
And then we are also learning the concepts of being alone and together.
So Celine Dion does a cover of All By Myself.
So my daughter will hum it.
It's so funny.
No, no. And she does that anymore.
She does this like screechy, banshee, desperation wail that absolutely every single time I hear it, it gives me goosebumps.
But anyway, go on. She knows Elvis.
Oh, the other thing about Celine Dion.
So Celine Dion is the lady.
So we'll be singing like the, Chris, my husband and I will be singing, you know, the wheels on the bus go round and round, just kids songs.
And my daughter's like, no, no, no, the lady, have the lady sing it.
So she thinks that Celine has probably done covers of Listen, nothing is going to give, and I think this is fair to say for Izzy too, nothing is going to give your kids a sense of your own personal limitations than attempting to sing along with real singers.
What do you think, babe? Yeah. Wait, are you okay?
Do you need a moment? And my mother, too, are Elvis and Patsy Cline.
Oh, Patsy Cline. So she requests these artists.
So most of them, I can listen to this music all day long.
And that's the other thing with screen time.
Like, kids crave it.
They're hypnotized by it.
It's so interesting to them.
So if you are going to introduce something, you better be prepared to listen to it for the next two months.
Pretty solid. Alright.
Right now I have the taste of music.
I could listen to it for like a week and then I'm like, you know what?
I've heard this too many times, even if it's like occasionally and then I have to move on to a new song.
Kids outgrow repetition for sure.
Don't worry, you'll be okay.
At the early point you better get used to hearing Let It Go until you want to let go of the bridge.
Alright. Jared, is there anything you wanted to jump in with that?
Asking a crypto guy about screen time is like asking Hunter Biden about illicit substances.
But okay, go on.
So that's largely something I guess I would study coming up to be a prospective parent.
Where I'm at right now, I would say it seems like the downside, the argument against it would be, okay, we don't like Like, adults are addicted enough to screens and what's going on with tablets and apps and games and stuff.
And, like, these folks that make these things are really great at tapping into those dopamine centers and making them want to come back, come back, come back.
And, boys, is that the best thing for your kid?
Or do they need to be, you know, playing with blocks or something else to be a lot more educational?
So, but at the same time, you know, there's opportunities there with the technology, if done right.
So I'm kind of conflicted both ways about it.
I'm not resolved. I don't know where I would go with that as far as screen time, because I can see both sides, the good and the bad.
So screen time doesn't have to be...
Sorry, Tim, just before I forget the thought.
Screen time doesn't have to be an isolating thing, right?
So screen time isn't just...
I don't like the sort of, go with the screen because I'm busy as a parent.
That's usually not a very good solution.
It's easy, right? But, you know, games we play together.
We used to play the little game Golf Battle.
It's actually really fun.
Even if you play it yourself, you can get paired with random online people and it's like a little mini game.
You get to open chess, unlock new clubs, stuff like that.
Yeah, so we played a game Golf Battle socially.
We played a couple of games on the...
We played Rocket League. We played Rocket League, very social.
We play Among Us. I have an Among Us server if you're ever interested in that and have enough time.
Yeah, yeah. So we played very social.
We've played... So if we play two player games together...
Yes, we play Pixel Junk Shooters or something like that.
Oh, Pixel Junk Shooter, I think it was called.
That was a fun game. Yeah, I think that's what it was called.
We used to play that. Lovers in a Dangerous Space Center.
Lovers in a Dangerous Space Time?
It's basically like you're on this spaceship and you have to like...
Fly through these narrow tunnels and these little robots that try and shoot your ship.
Yeah, because we don't look at...
So, like, if you sit down with your kids and you play cards or Monopoly, we used to play a lot of Monopoly or other board games.
Oh, we used to have those epic games that last, like, two weeks.
Oh, yeah. We'd take up the entire ottoman.
Mom would be like, can we tidy the Monopoly game?
No! Don't do a guess!
It's the fate of the universe hangs on who gets ill and annoyed.
Do you remember that? Oh, Illinois.
I call it ill and annoyed.
Yeah, yeah. And now it's even run by Democrats.
It is run by Democrats, so they are ill and annoyed.
So, I mean, if you're playing a game with your kids, whether it's a board game or it's a tablet game or a computer, if you're doing it socially, you're negotiating, you go do this and problem solving and so on, then that, I think, is fine.
Just go do something on the tablet because I'm busy.
It doesn't seem to be a good idea. The other thing I wanted to mention before we get to the final two people, and thanks for your patience, we were talking about this at breakfast today.
You know, we talk about kids and tablets.
Man, parents and tablets.
That's the issue. That's brutal.
Okay, we would go to a play center.
Yeah, I'd be like six or seven at the time.
We'd go to this play center.
It was a really great play center, by the way.
I hope it stays open during COVID. I don't think it will.
But anyways... We'd see these three-year-olds, four-year-olds, five-year-olds just going into the play center, their parents just sitting on these benches eating some snacks on their phones, just scrolling through their messages.
We'd occasionally see a dad go in with his kid, but that's about it.
It's like... Yeah, for the most part, when we would go out, we would see parents ignoring their children for the sake of screen time.
And all the kids would just latch onto us.
Ugh. You were always so nice, and I was like, no, go away!
I can't say no! Yes, I know!
So what would the general process be of us going to a play center?
So we'd go to a play center and we'd see like 20 parents sitting on their phones.
Then we'd actually go into the main play center area after getting checked in and stuff, whatever, right?
And we'd play, and five minutes later, kids would just come up to us and be like, hey, what are you playing?
And my dad would be like, oh, we're playing!
And I remember this one time, you were about to say it, and I'm like, you know what?
My dad and I would like to come to the playground just to play with us, so you can go away.
I said something like that.
It wasn't exactly that, but it was like that.
In the future, I said when the kids would want to play.
Now, of course, I'd be like...
But you're like me when I was a little kid.
I can't say no. Maybe you don't have a dad at all.
But then what I would say, if a kid would come up, I'd just say, I'm sorry, you're going to need to speak to my representative over here.
Oh, you'd actually say that? No, but that would be my sort of mental thought.
I'm like, let me hold up my human shield called my child who will now say no to you on my behalf because I apparently have the spine of a jellyfish.
Well, I took away your spine and I put it to the vents and I sent it to Jupiter.
That's right. Because I didn't like when he said no.
So when I would say no, Izzy would actually reach into my back.
Should we give them a tiny demonstration?
I just take it, and then I put it in the vents, and then the vents and send it over to Jupiter.
Yeah, so Jupiter, my spine is currently orbiting Jupiter in some philosophical experiment.
Yes, I can't say no.
Now, that's funny, because when I would not say no to you, removing my spine was a good thing, but when I wouldn't say no to other kids, what happened?
Bad. Bad, yeah.
You can't say no to me, but you can't say no to others.
Not so much fun when the spine's gone now, is it?
I only took out the part of the spine that said no to me.
Right. But no, so we would see this all the time.
We would go out for a restaurant meal.
We would see the parents on tablets and the kids on screens.
So it's a little different.
I mean, I had to be on, you know, I kind of run this whole thing off a tablet or a phone or a computer sometimes.
So I had to sort of be on screen time, but I certainly tried to pull back and all of that.
But to me, it's kind of under-discussed just how much parents have issues with screen time.
We see this all the time. We actually comment on it.
We see entire tables of people, parents on their phones, kids on their phones, or parents lobbying...
Tablets or phones to their kids so that the parents could have some kind of conversation.
And that's not particularly fair because, you know, it's important for kids.
I know you don't always like it when mom and I are talking finances and stuff like that, right?
No, I don't. But, you know, I think it's important to be exposed to that kind of stuff, obviously not when they're super young.
But anyway, so I just wanted to mention that I think that parents got to watch out and model less tablet usage, less screen time and so on.
Sorry. Yeah, go ahead.
Jerry asked if he could hop onto audio.
Huh? Jerry asked if he could hop onto audio right there.
Oh, aren't you showing off your younger eyeballs?
All right. Can I jump on audio?
And also, Roma Beast also pointed out, maybe Steph's spine will jump into the teapot orbiting Jupiter.
So this is an old thing.
I think it comes from Bertrand Russell about the teapot orbiting.
Yeah, I heard this. I just thought that was funny.
That's right. All right.
Can I jump on audio?
Okay. I don't know where you are.
I've been muted. I'm here.
Yeah, yeah. Go for it. Yeah, so we have, and sorry, I've been here the whole time just listening.
We've got a five-year-old and a two-year-old.
And the couple times that we do screen time is we have a special movie night on Friday nights where we all watch a family movie.
But the other time that we really started doing screen time because, you know, we were kind of in the same boat as Luna where we wouldn't do any.
Was when our second was born.
And, you know, we've got a young boy who needs something to kind of entertain himself with.
And we've got a second baby who, you know, needs all of our time.
So, you know, we still try to limit it.
but we do maybe a show or two, a very kid-friendly that we've pre-screened show probably most days now. - Yeah, no, that's a good point. that's a good point.
And if you – I don't count it particularly as screen time if you're sitting watching something – like if you watch a movie together and then we've done – Izzy and I have done movie reviews.
Like if you talk about it, here's what it means, here's my thoughts about it, what do you think about it, then it's a topic of conversation.
Yeah. And I think that's fine.
I think also reading books together can be a lot of fun as well.
We've read Animal Farm together.
We've read Animal Farm together.
We also did Lord of the Flies.
Yeah, that thing had so much description in it, and it was insane.
I'm afraid you had to start skipping that.
How many times can you describe the way that sunlight falls on a leaf?
Apparently the answer is infinite.
How many times does you have to describe a guy brushing through his hair with his hand?
Yeah, yeah. Like, they spent an entire paragraph on this.
That, of course, is... Please get to the story.
That's a particularly painful description for me, of course.
Look at me running my hands through my...
Okay. Tim, how does it work for you?
Yeah, like, Luna, when you said that you don't have any, that's amazing to me.
I put, like, maximum effort into limiting their screen time and their sugar, and then they still get, like, a ton of it.
So it's your wife, that's what you're saying.
You're the strong one.
I can totally film you there, brother.
It's exactly the same for me.
Yeah, blame the wife. Yeah, so they get a lot, but I try to limit it, but even then they still get a lot of it.
If you don't, you're not going to get any...
In my house, you're not going to get any conversation with your wife or with friends.
Maybe it's just at the age that they're at.
Five and under, it's like they really can't just sit in a chair.
And then you just put a screen in front of them and they just sort of...
They're...
And then you can actually eat and have a conversation.
You have to do that in my house if you have a meal and talk at all.
Do you have a sense or do you track hours per week?
Because that's always a big question for this stuff.
Yeah, like on the...
No, not really.
Are you afraid to?
I know I'm afraid to with my own phone.
It's like I don't want to see those numbers.
I know, like you say, if you turn on screen tracker for your tablet, and I'm like, only if you do it on your phone.
Yeah, so it's inverse alcohol, so it's good for kids, but it's terrible for adults to do that kind of stuff.
Of course, yeah. You understand how this...
We'll go over inverse alcohol another time.
All right. Okay, good.
And Natalie, how does it work for you guys?
Oh, you're a Grinnell Homeschool man, so they're lucky to get an Etch-a-Sketch, right?
Is that the way it goes? No.
I have to say also that when my daughter was little, like before my son was born, she had almost no screen time.
Like, that was not...
My husband and I will watch a show after she goes to bed.
When she was the only kid, it was like no screens.
Basically, no screens.
She didn't play on a tablet or a phone.
I think temperament also comes into play there.
She is pretty...
Happy to kind of entertain herself and like the way she entertains herself tend to be, you know, not terribly destructive.
I think the key word there is she, but go ahead.
Yeah. And then even like when my second was born, when my first son...
I still, I could put him down for naps.
I could tell my then three and a half year old daughter, I could say, okay, I'm going to put your brother down for a nap.
I need you to look at books.
I'll be out in a few minutes.
Please don't knock on the door unless it's an emergency.
I could tell her, just give me a little time and I'll come out.
And that worked for her almost all the time.
But then when my third came along, and so my older son wasn't, he wasn't three and a half, he was a little closer to three, a little under three.
And His impulse control, in addition to being slightly younger, his impulse control, and also his volume in general, all these things are quite different from my daughter.
I keep hearing about this impulse control thing.
Maybe you can explain it to me after the show.
It feels offensive to me in some mysterious manner.
Sorry, go ahead. But, you know, so I could, you know, I could tell him, I'm going to put your brother down for a nap, and I'll be out in a few minutes.
And, like, he would just, like, burst in, or, like, and it's like, well, I told you I need some time to put your brother down.
Well, I just had something to tell you.
Like, I know, I just need to tell you.
Oh. I can say that, from my understanding of other kids, that's a lot more of a boy thing than a girl thing.
Like, I was a bit more, like, if you're more than three or four minutes, I will come in, but I'd wait for the first little bit.
But, yeah, I think, from what I can understand, although I feel the experts would be the guys actually here, or the other people who have boys, but I don't know, I'd say, yeah, boys are definitely more like that.
That seems like, I don't know, I have a, my sample size is small at this point, but in my home experiment so far, like, the boys, there's definitely differences between the genders, let me tell you.
And it starts from, like, birth.
Like, I mean, it really is, it's It's pretty different.
You know, the toys, that's a tangent.
The toys my sons choose to play with versus what my daughter chooses to play with, even though, like, trucks were available to her and stuff.
Like, no, they're obsessed with things with wheels, and she was not.
But anyway, so we, you know, we use...
Sorry, could I just ask you to hold up one of those wheel toys?
I think the boys in the call would really, really appreciate that.
If you had those around, it would be fantastic.
Sorry, just go ahead. Just kidding, go ahead.
So between like needing to protect some quiet while I get my youngest down for a nap, and then also just like knowing that watching a show is a possibility, my older two would ask, All the time. Can I watch a show?
Can I watch a show? Can I watch it?
And it's like, well, let's...
There's other things to do. No, we don't watch one every day.
No, you can also say, I'm not sure if he's produced a show today.
Because I assume that's all they...
I assume that's all they want to watch.
Yeah, yeah, of course. But sorry, go ahead.
I mean, I never did, but...
You tell me about it.
I am a show. Sorry, go ahead.
You can tell me all about his show, so...
So, what we...
I have eventually, for now...
My kids will watch, at least the older two, watch one or two episodes of something every day.
And it's like, it's not for a while, it was like, well, if you do this, then you can watch a show.
And I was using it like an incentive or a reward.
But it was really hard to Like, well, if I really needed to put my youngest down or, like, I needed some, you know, his naps will last a certain amount of time.
The first half of his nap, like, he can deal, like, once he's asleep, he can deal with some noise.
But in, like, towards the end, he'll wake up with not very much noise.
So it's like, oh, if I can't, You know, we've got to...
Wait, sorry. Are you saying that it's tough to get a kid to nap if he hears sounds of immense enjoyment from the next room?
Because as a younger sibling, I could tell you I was always on the lookout for people having fun when I wasn't around.
And then it's just like, I will never, ever nap again.
Yeah, no.
That seems to be...
So anyway, we use this, you know, now it's just like, yes, you can watch a show at two o'clock while your brother is napping.
And, you know, like, we've got pretty, like, you know, strong limits around those.
It's like, it's this from here to here.
And then it's over.
And, you know, they get to practice like that, like, like dealing with that feeling of like, no, I just want to watch.
One more episode!
And like, yeah, well, we can watch another day.
It's really hard to stop.
I totally understand.
Like, yeah. I absolutely love watching parents imitate their kids.
Like, your entire face changed.
I will eat you alive, Mom, if you don't give me one.
The intensity, right?
What's even more instructive is watching children imitate their parents.
Also quite instructive.
Are you asking me to do something? No, I'm really not.
In fact, that's probably better for the entire show if you don't.
Okay. But no, that intensity of like, you know, because, you know, as parents, we've got a whole bunch of stuff going on.
Kids, they're like lasers.
Like one thing, one thing, and they will bore through.
Anyway, okay. So, Luna, did you want to mention something about this as well?
Sorry, Natalie, if you were done. I think I'm done.
Yeah, yeah. Okay, Luna, you wanted to jump in with something?
Yeah, I just wanted to say how we don't do screen time, and I agree with Natalie.
Part of it is temperament.
My daughter is amazingly compliant.
Like, if she's being loud while our son is trying to nap, we play...
We basically see, like, oh, can we do this as quietly as possible?
We start whispering to each other, like...
And she thinks it's so funny.
Sorry, just a moment. Tim's starting to cry.
I can see it. But we'll get back to kids' temperament.
Tim's temperament in a moment.
Go ahead. Or, you know, sometimes if my son is napping, we'll go on a walk around the block.
Like, my son's fine by himself for, you know, 45 minutes that it takes to walk around the block with my daughter.
The other thing we started from birth was having a gated off play space.
So I can just leave my daughter in the play space.
The way I set it up, it's super fun.
Tons of books, tons of toys, trampoline, chalkboard, coloring books, everything that could be fun is in there.
And if I have to change my son's diaper, put him down for a nap, she stays in the gated play space.
But I don't know how they'd work with a five-year-old who can probably just climb over a baby gate.
Actually, they just chew their way out at that age.
But yeah, go ahead. So anyway, that's how we've set things up, where from birth, they've had a gated-off play space, so they don't know any differently.
They don't know that other kids get free range of the house.
And... Yes, they don't really want to escape.
Since they haven't been exposed to the screens yet, they don't know what they're missing.
And if they do see me on a screen, it's really boring.
I'm ordering groceries. I'm pulling up a song.
I'm texting my husband.
Like, there's nothing fun happening on the screen.
Jerry, did you want to mention something?
I'm trying to get the tone of your message here, but it's something like this.
Yeah, that worked for about a minute with our son, or something like that.
I think that's sort of the tone that went on.
Amazingly compliant. Amazingly compliant.
That was actually our first middle names for Izzy, but we actually weren't allowed to legally do that.
Jerry, did you want to mention something about...
Wait, hold on. Yeah, go ahead. Wasn't it illegal to name your kid Nutella in some place?
Yeah, yeah. Just thinking of funny names.
I don't know why. Jerry, are you on?
You're going to need to unmute. Yeah, yeah.
Can you hear me all right? I switched my headset.
Okay. A couple things there.
So, yeah, the Let's Just Be Quiet, that worked for about a minute.
We're a little bit worried that our oldest is going to be an evil genius.
He is fantastic at monologuing.
Or he'll be Steph, you know.
Hey, hey, what's wrong with being good at monologuing?
Why does that make you an evil genius?
Okay, I have a long speech to make about that.
Yeah, exactly.
It's called filibustering.
One person talks and you simply don't let...
You know in Among Us?
In Among Us! Okay, so just so if there are other people, younger people listening, explain how it works if you're the imposter and you want to...
You just want to, I guess, monologue or filibuster the entire time so no one else can get any information about what happened.
Yeah, that's right, Jared.
Anyway, so...
Yeah, Jared does like to filibuster.
So, yeah, but I'd like to hear more about the evil genius thing, because this may be evidence in court at one point.
Go ahead. Well, he's brilliant.
It's fantastic. And obviously, he's incredibly smart.
But, you know, and this kind of goes back to the negotiating thing, where, you know, it's hard to negotiate when it's a very one-sided negotiation.
Um, but as for the, uh, the, um, what Luna was talking about with, uh, you know, kind of keeping them in a certain area that that worked as well for a little bit.
Um, but our two year old, uh, he's our climber.
So even though he's teeny tiny, he always climbed way more than his older brother and still does.
So, you know, it just seems there's...
It's different personalities.
It's very tough when they're actually born in a Spider-Man suit, like they come out that way, because then you just know you're going to have...
Childproofing is going to be a challenge, right?
Yeah, we know these kids.
We know some kids.
They have three kids.
And... What's it called?
One of them, like their youngest, just climbs everything.
If you're in a playground together and the swings, there's some really tall swings, right?
And they have these metal poles going up to support it on the sides.
He just went right up.
You want to know where that kid is, just look up.
That's all you need to do.
Just look up. He'll be hanging from your fan.
He'll be like anywhere.
It's a circus show called Mommy Screaming.
All right. Okay, good.
So let me ask you this.
So here's a comment that came out of...
A listener. So he's saying he's sort of having a big problem with the relationship he has.
And I guess this is another question.
And I'm happy to take more questions from the watchers.
And it is... So my friend had kids after I did, and our sons are six months apart.
My son is way more verbal and super polite and loving and trusting, whereas hers is almost nonverbal and hits and fights with everyone.
And she threatens violence.
This is his friend, right?
I really don't want my kids around it.
And I'm definitely going to cut her out after hearing the latest podcast, blah, blah, blah.
I don't want my kids around it.
I've told her that the difference in parenting makes a difference.
And she just thinks her kids, both are nonverbal, four and two, are slow learners.
But both her and her husband work and are constantly threatening their kids.
So when it comes to who your kids are around, you know, because this...
You know, again, on average, three-quarters of parents admit to hitting their kids, which is a really tragic number, and that's just the ones who admit.
Now, in terms of Being absent, being unattached, being screen addicted for the parents, or yelling, raising voice, threatening, intimidating, calling names, all this kind of stuff.
What is the social situation with regards to your kids and Kids around who may not be parented in a peaceful manner or maybe a challenge.
And it's tough, right? Because kids are going to grow up, they have to go out and deal with the world.
And there will be, of course, the world is full of traumatized people.
The world is full of traumatized people.
Do you learn how to deal with them?
Do you just try and create a society or a situation where you don't have to deal with them as much?
How is that playing out?
And I guess we can start with Tim and then go counterclockwise and we can end up with Jared, but again.
Right before you start, Tim, I wanted to add one thing.
So when it comes to hitting kids, It's, in society, it's like, yeah, it's fine, right?
But, I mean, if you go up to, like, say, I know Bob walks up to Tom, right?
And Bob just slaps Tom out of the blue.
He could get fined. He might get arrested if it's, like, a punch or something.
But when it comes to kids, in a few places, it's actually like, yeah, go hit your kids.
It's good for them. Most places. Yeah, most places.
And it's just, if an adult hits an adult, they get, like, fined or put in jail for a bit or whatever.
But if an adult hits a kid, it's like, good for you.
Well, and if Bob goes up to Tom and hits him, Tom can dodge.
Tom can hit back. Tom can call the police.
Tom could run away.
That's my preferred strategy. And the kids are just, like, stuck there.
Yeah, kids are trapped, right?
I mean, this is what we talked about the other day with regards to the pandemic.
I mean, my gosh. Kids with bad parents, they're all stuck at home together.
They can't even get out to the relative safety of school, and that's a whole thing which we're not really talking about.
That's why kids' self-destructive behaviors are going through the roof at the moment, because I think a lot of them are stuck home with...
Yeah, and it's a terrible, terrible, terrible...
It's the worst double standard around.
But this is a state of society where kids don't vote, right?
Yeah. You just have kids voting.
Well, I don't know. I mean, it's hard to say.
It's a whole other thing. But yeah, how do you guys deal with kids who are raised in the traditional non-peaceful, let's put it as nicely as possible, non-peaceful way?
Have you navigated that or how does that play out?
Tim, do you want to give it a shot? Yeah.
My kids were going to daycare, and then because of COVID, our circumstances changed to where we could have them at home.
And that had a big effect.
My two-year-old at the time, I don't know, she just went...
Just began this thing where she would bite and pinch all the time.
She still does it.
She doesn't bite as much anymore, but if she's just next to you, she's going to just try to start pinching it.
Play pinch or leave a well pinch?
I don't know. It's a great...
I don't know.
It's pretty hard. It's more than play pinch, I would say.
But I don't know if she's intentionally trying to be mean.
It's just something that she does.
And I think she picked that up at daycare.
She's with these kids and a little kid's trying to take her toy and she doesn't know what to do about it.
And then this might have worked one or two times.
And then it's wide in her head at a young...
At such a young age that...
And I used to get really mad about it.
And then I realized that I'm kind of the one who caused her to start doing that because I put her in that environment where she learned that.
So then I, you know, started not getting mad about it.
And I used to be like, I try to do it universally.
Universal, preferable behavior.
Like, oh, you pinch me, I'm going to pinch you.
But that doesn't work. She doesn't, like, process why.
That's not quite you, PB. Just, you know, whack, you know, because she's a kid and you put her in the environment.
So that may be self-defense as an adult, but not as a parent.
But anyway, go on. But that totally doesn't work.
She doesn't see that connection at all.
So she just goes, oh, you pinch me!
Because you pinch me!
And she goes, no, you pinch me!
So doing that doesn't work.
The only thing you can say is, I don't like that.
And you just say that over each time.
Have you asked her where she got it from?
Because most likely she was pinched by an older kid in daycare.
Yeah, I think so, yeah.
But her verbal skills are still not really there to have a conversation like that, I think, at this point.
I mean, obviously you know your kid better than we do, of course, but I think you should still give it a try.
I mean, just in case, maybe they can draw it a little bit if they can't quite exactly say it.
Or, I don't know, maybe just...
I'd say give it a try, if you can.
Yeah, I will.
It might have been too long ago, too.
I think she was in there from a year and a half ago, so she was only like one and a half at the time.
Okay, so pretty tough to remember, right?
But the kids who had less exposure to daycare don't do that, is that right?
Yeah, yeah.
So my, thank God, my youngest, who's one, she's never been in daycare.
And then my five-year-old, she never really took to doing that.
So they're all pretty non-violent and get along well.
Excellent. All right.
Natalie. Normie kids, go.
We, my kids don't They don't get to see Normie kids very much.
And it's not like... Do they watch documentaries?
No, I'm just kidding. Sorry. No, I mean, just the way our life is, we interact with kind of a small number of families and the ones that we do basically all have pretty similar...
Approaches to parenting.
There's some parents that I met when my daughter was young.
In my state, it's offered through the public school, early childhood family education, which are classes where parents come with their child and you have a couple of hours that you're together and you're doing Some, like, just observation, some playing together, and then some parent education time.
And my experience with those classes has actually been really positive.
They, you know, they're, you know, current with, you know, research about parenting and child development and relationships, you know, so you get all the You know, it's, you know, respectful parenting and, you know, acknowledging feelings and curiosity about what's going on.
And you put together with the child development piece of like, well, what, what's the motor that's driving them?
You know, like the, you know, like a kid, you know, is not being defiant.
They're doing their job.
Well, you know, their job is to test and your job is to respond and set limits, you know, like a lot of, you You know, helping to understand, like, what's happening in your child's brain that contribute to some of the things that are challenging.
And also, you have a chance with other parents who are learning these things, too, you have a chance to have your kids can practice, you know, they interact, and, like, the teachers, you know, can help model how you would, how would you intervene in a conflict between two kids who want the same thing?
Like, How do you talk to them?
How do you help them work through that?
Do you just give it like, oh, you have to take turns.
Traditionally, it's like, well, you have to take turns.
You have to share. Well, that's not necessarily developmentally appropriate for a one-year-old or a two-year-old.
If you can't trust that you can play with this thing that you have, at any moment, an adult might come in and say, You have to give it to this other kid.
Like, what? That doesn't...
I don't understand.
And, like, I'm suspicious, you know.
Anyway, so I was really fortunate to have a pool of parents who were going through kind of the same kind of education process.
And so, you know, I had this other pool of moms that had, you know, a similar approach.
And we've done that with...
A couple of our kids, but we're not attending those classes right now.
But that's been nice.
So we've got some friends, you know, some friends from that pool where we, you know, we kind of have the same.
And then some of my friends from other parts of my life have, again, like have adopted similar parenting approaches.
And I think part of it is because, you know, some of the things that That I have learned and shared with them, not to like to my own horn, but like my friend whose kids are older than my kids that I was taking care of when I,
you know, when I first, it was introduced to Steph's work, you know, she was struggling with her five-year-old being defiant and, you know, whatever, and she was kept punishing and like, you know, not spanking, but just like taking away privileges, take consequences,
taking away the stuff that he wanted to do and it just kept it kept getting just like I don't know I can't do more and I was like well why you know and I like why would you use the thing that you know your intimacy with him why would you use that against him you know to you know that um you know she stopped doing those things and he stopped being defiant like it was kind of um kind of amazing but any anyway um I have a friend who did at one time you know spank um her son when he was young and you know I kind of made an argument about like what you know that you know it's maybe you get short-term compliance but long-term more behavior you know like the science is is there and also you know you know the real the relationship and and all all of those things so she stopped she said you know they she's had You know,
two more boys after that and nobody is spanked in our house anymore.
You know, like that's...
Yeah, I can never for the life...
I mean, the idea that you and I would...
You know, like we wake up and we have breakfast and then you'd be like, I hope dad doesn't get mad.
I hope dad's not in the bed.
Like that would be just so awful, especially when we all, you know, if you're homeschooled and, you know, we're sort of a 24-7 situation here.
I mean, just to make your kids afraid of you and think that's the plan for the next 18 years is just a rule by fear.
Yeah, I don't know. That's just like...
Well, basically until the teenage years, because what's the teenage years?
It's like parents...
Well, then you're going to get the fight back, right?
And then, as I said before, we were talking about this the other day here at home, most of parenting when they're young is just getting ready for the teen storms, getting ready for the emotional rollercoaster of the teen years and the skepticism of the parents and the eye-rolling and sighing, which is...
Wait, what? This is happening?
What? Yeah, no.
So, just, you can lean into the mic here, just if you want.
If you could give people the sigh that happens when the dad...
See, the dad jokes used to be kind of enjoyable.
They went through a little bit of... I still like them!
No, no, but give me the sigh.
You can do it right into the mic. So, imagine, bad dad joke.
I don't know if you guys heard that, but that is the sound of the soul leaving the body.
I think Jared heard it. Yeah, that is the sound of the soul leaving...
Yeah, just something like that.
Someone help me. I've heard that once or twice while playing Among Us.
Yes, there is that. You have heard that a few times.
I think everyone has. There is that, sorry.
Also, the rage quit. But anyway.
From what? The rage quit. Oh, from you?
I didn't say that.
Yeah, you did. I didn't say it directly.
You just inferred it because of reason and evidence.
But no, just this idea that this is what I'm going to do is I'm going to intimidate a little kid.
That's my strategy for life is I'm going to go out and if my boss asks me to do something, I'll be okay.
If the waiter brings me my food and my food is cold, I'll be okay, but what When I get home, man, I'm sure we're going to bully that little kid.
It's just like, ugh. It's just so weird.
How sad it would be to, you know, like when, you know, I want you to have some measure of happiness when we walk into a room together, not like, uh-oh, he's going to make a joke.
No, wait. Uh-oh.
He's going to try and show me some dad's moves.
But dad jokes for life, no compromise, says someone.
Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. But no, just the rule by fear thing, I think, would just be, you know, why on earth would you want to bring someone into this life and then just have them fear you?
Yeah, I just... So sad.
Like, why have kids if you're just going to, like, traumatize them?
Oh, yeah. No, I don't understand that at all.
It's beyond my comprehension.
I mean, I've had the experience on the other side, but doing it on this side.
So, sorry, Luna, we were going to talk.
How do you manage the impulse to become a helicopter parent?
Good question. You really sounded like you were going to say something.
I was going to say something, and then I wasn't, because I thought I had something cool to say, and then I was like, wait, no, I don't.
Oh, it happens to me all the time.
Trust me. Just keep talking. 5,000 shows.
Okay. Honestly, I mean, I'd say about that, I don't really know because I'm not the parent too well, but...
Just let your kids do things.
They'll learn from experience. The parents are trying to prevent everything the kid does.
It won't work because your kids will still want to try and experiment and stuff.
They have to learn from, like, if they try and jump off, I don't know, like, try and climb a rock, like a, you know, where sometimes they'll see the signs, don't climb the rock.
So they end up climbing the rock, and they fall down the rock.
Yes, they'll hurt themselves. Also, kids are much younger, and they heal very fast.
I know that myself. But honestly, I mean, just let them learn from experience.
Next time, they'll be a lot more wary about climbing things that they probably shouldn't.
Yeah, I mean, there has to be a certain amount of learning by experience.
And again, that's a bit of a dad thing versus a mom thing.
The mom thing is all about preventing harm, and the dad thing is walk it off.
Yeah, that's, yeah.
Yeah, so, I mean, you have to have a balance, right?
So when you were learning to ride a bike, we didn't just put you at the top of a big hill and say, good luck, right?
Have fun! Yeah, yeah, but at the same time, if you, you know, you fell a couple of times like all kids do on their bikes, and...
I remember I was so excited, I got 14 pedals, and I fell, and I, like, I really hurt myself, and I'm so excited, because I'm like, I did, I turned, what is it called, I pedaled my feet 14 times, and I reached a certain distance.
Yep, that's very cool. No, not 14 times, 14 seconds.
I did 14 seconds, and I was so excited.
And then, you know, you're going to fall.
And the whole point of falling, though, is to recognize and realize that you can have a failure, you can have a setback, you can be in pain, and you just get up and you try again.
Sorry, just before we get to you, Luna, somebody said here, discipline, right?
The question of discipline. So you cannot teach discipline to your children by hitting them because you're out of control of your temper.
In other words, you lack self-discipline.
So you can't Get your kids to be disciplined if you lack the discipline to reason with your kids.
Because if you are modeling losing control and then asking your kids to have discipline, that's a complete contradiction.
They can never hear what you're saying over what you're doing.
So, sorry Luna, I rudely asked you to speak and then interrupted, so go for it.
I mean, in terms of kids who may not be quite as evolved as your parenting?
Oh, okay, so wait, am I responding to...
Sorry, the question was a while ago.
I apologize for that, but we were talking just about how if there are kids around a similar age and maybe the parents are somewhat similar in terms of parenting styles, but there's issues in the parenting or issues in the family to the point where it may not be great for your kids in the long run.
How do you deal with that or have you had to?
Well, my kids are young.
My oldest just turned two.
We were part of the moms group until I got exiled for my political beliefs.
I want to hear that story.
And I also want you to name names.
Give me a website. I'm just kidding. Well, yeah, we were part of this moms group.
And then they just thought that I was very judgmental.
Which I was confused by.
And I just realized, like, I'm the only one, like, I wanted to know what people's kids were up to.
Like, we all had kids around the same age.
Like, oh, what are his skills now?
Like, did he learn so many words?
What are your kids up to?
What does he like to eat?
And then I realized, like, hey, I'm the only one asking questions about these people's children.
And it seemed like the mom's group was mostly, like, Let's ignore our kids and just talk about our own lives.
Anyway, we got exiled from that group.
Did you bring it up that the parents seem to be somewhat self-absorbed and there's not much parenting going on?
No. I just got a text that I've been uninvited.
Oof. Now, it's funny because they say, oh, Luna, you're just so judgmental.
So we're going to judge you and expel you.
Yeah, exactly. Because you see being judgmental is just so terrible.
Well, I texted back.
I was like, wow, I'm really curious to hear about that.
Can you tell me more? And then I never got a text back.
So anyway. You just had to scream racism.
All you had to do was scream racism.
Come on, man. Don't you know how to work this system yet?
Yeah. Yeah. But at the time when we were hanging out, there was a lot going on that I wasn't comfortable with.
There's one baby who, babies can't help it.
They spit up. That's just part of their, like, gut and esophagus.
They can't help it. And there's this one mom who's, like, really embarrassed by her child's spit up.
She'd wipe his face so roughly.
It's just the complete opposite.
My son spits up a lot.
Before I wipe his face, it's not an emergency.
I say, I'm going to wipe your face.
Get ready for it. How would you like it if somebody just took a paper towel to your face and rubbed you with it without any warning?
We were exposed to parenting that I don't agree with.
I thought it was over the top.
But I just follow my daughter's lead.
I let her observe.
And if she's curious about it, she's got the verbal skills where she'll keep repeating something because she wants me to help her process it.
So after the fact, I'll say like, oh yeah, that's what happened.
And we just talk about it afterward.
My approach to parenting is...
With her, we want to have a big family.
So my approach with her...
So I think somebody was talking about, like, how to not be a helicopter parent.
With my daughter, when she was first born, my philosophy was treat her like she's a second child.
Like, don't be all up in her grill.
Let her observe. And if she needs help processing, she'll talk to me about it.
Or, you know, I'll initiate the processing.
I... So we're not really part of any moms groups anymore, but she does socialize with her younger brother.
And when it comes to sharing, I try not to intervene unless...
And neither of them is aggressive.
So, you know, he'll squawk at her if she takes a big way and he's upset with it.
And she's startled. She'll just squawk?
Oh no, my son will squawk at her if she takes the toilet.
What does a squawk sound like to you, Ben?
What? What the heck was that?
Okay, try that again. Hang on, hang on.
We've got to get a proper squawk here.
I think everyone should imitate it, but to my way, something like that.
But what do you have for a squawk?
I don't know. I kind of like imagining something, but I can't say it.
It's like a chicken. They sound like a chicken being run over there.
That's right. Anybody?
You know, other people can try.
Just do me a favor, everyone.
We'll get the actual squawk, but I'm quite fascinated by this.
I've never heard a child. What?
Oh, very good.
I saw a whole bunch of mice just scurry away from that owl.
Tim, can you get a good squawk in?
That was a very surprised owl.
And Natalie, what do you got in your glottal there?
I don't know.
Oh, come on! Play!
Okay, these... Us girls are too shy.
Come on, come on. Oh, no!
Oh, that's just heartbreaking.
That is heartbreaking. I had to do the cute one.
I just had to. Okay, Natalie, come on.
Give us a score. Ah!
Ah, fantastic.
What is this?
All right.
Well, I think I'm the closest.
Do a better one. Me do a better one?
Okay, so...
That's more like a pig!
No, no, but that's something like the kid...
Something like...
What? Okay, that's a squawk.
That's not a squawk. It's close.
Alright. It's not even close to a squawk.
Alright, so...
It was mostly like Jared's.
Okay, sorry for everyone's hearing there.
Yeah, sorry. Do not listen to this while falling asleep.
Okay, so here's all of our anticipation of what the squawk sounds like.
Luna, if you could just give us what the squawk actually is.
I kind of imagine something cute, but I can't make the noise.
Yeah, yeah. It was mostly like Jared's squawk, so it's very startling, and it stops her in her tracks.
She lets go of the toy because she's like...
I don't actually hear you imitate it unless I missed something there.
Oh, I have to do it?
Yes, you have. I don't have to, but, you know, I'm just curious what it sounds like.
Let's just say it sounds like Jared's.
Jared, can you give us that one more time just so we get a reference?
Ah! Yeah, something like that.
Are you sure that's not something out by the bird feeder?
Are you sure that's actually coming from your child?
Because that sounds like something laying an egg.
Jared, did you actually lay it?
Okay, we'll get back to what Jared was doing, but sorry, go ahead.
Ah! Yeah, I just let them sort things out for themselves.
I'm right there with them to be able to intervene if I need to.
But, you know, they're learning from each other how they influence each other and what their impact is.
So I just don't need to intervene unless there's something aggressive happening, which there pretty much never is.
Well, you are a very calming person, and I actually feel slightly less aggressive just even in this conversation.
Slightly, which is a massive breakthrough for me.
Very slightly. Very slightly.
All right, so if you want to throw in any last questions, certainly really, really appreciate everyone's time today.
I'd like to thank the person who has decided to grace us with their presence almost an hour and 40 minutes into the show.
Well, quite the prima donna, aren't you?
All right. That's just kidding.
It's nice to have you. Hi, Seth.
How are you doing? Hey.
Sorry, I thought it was specific.
No, no. We've mostly been solving problems in your family.
Yeah, I've been just talking about you the whole time.
Basically, lack of paintings and lack of wall colorings.
Lack of window coverings seems to be the major.
And the blue window, man. We need to discuss that.
Alright, so do you want to introduce yourself?
Sorry you're a little late. We'll be doing these again.
But if you wanted to tell us a little bit about yourself and your parenting history, if there is one and all that.
Oh, that might take a little time.
I guess, essentially, my parents weren't able to effectively make decisions as a single unit.
So, you know, my dad's anti-rational.
My mom's irrational, which is a problem.
You know, it's like, my dad's But he uses a lot of non-arguments.
And when I was a kid, he would...
You know, he wasn't able to persuade people, because obviously, anti-rational.
And so he would get angry, passive-aggressive, throw temper tantrums, that sort of thing.
I'm sorry to hear about that.
So we're obviously here to talk about some slightly better parenting practices.
You're not a parent that yourself, right?
Not yet, but the idea is I wanted to...
You know, get a grasp of it beforehand.
Would you like to tell us anything about this bachelor pad thing you've got going on here?
Because I do not see much of a female touch in this entire environment.
In fact, this is pretty much Ray Charles decorating approach.
Like... Okay.
You're gonna be on video!
Do you think your wife would let you have an unmade bed in the background?
The answer to that is no!
My mom doesn't even let me have it on my bed when there's no one coming to the house during quarantine.
But we're just going to mess it up again.
It doesn't matter. It's a principle of some abstract kind and you never know when Architectural Digest is going to fly past with a helicopter and a camera.
Okay, well, my biggest problem in my life right now is that essentially I have Asperger's syndrome.
And like most people with Asperger's, I'm very bright, you know, very good at solving problems.
But 90% of us are either unemployed or underemployed, right?
So there's something about us that makes it very difficult for us to find work.
So right now, my job is essentially, you know, I graduated from a data science boot camp.
I got a degree in computer science.
And so, you know, to support myself financially, I'm living with my parents.
Not great, but, you know, gotta do what I gotta do until I can support myself.
So... I appreciate that.
And hopefully some of the stuff we're talking about here will, you know, because everyone thinks parenting topics are just about like when you're a kid, right?
Like when you have kids.
But we all parent ourselves.
You know, we have this, you know, the ego, the super ego, the id.
Like we have various aspects of ourselves.
I parent myself.
Sometimes I'll say, okay, I'll play a little Among Us, but only if I work out at the same time.
Because, you know, then it's, you know, I... It's okay then.
Yeah, yeah. No, but we all parent ourselves.
So parenting topics aren't just about when you have kids.
It's about how you relate to the authoritative standards within yourself.
One of my favorite sayings from Jordan Peterson is you need to negotiate with yourself as if you're someone you're trying to help.
Right. Absolutely right.
Absolutely right. I think that's a very, very profound thing.
And I sort of call it the MECO system, which is that we're not just an individual thing.
We have parents in our heads.
We've got teachers. We've got the media.
We've got censorship. We've got deplatforming concerns.
We've got blowback. We've got desire.
We've got, you know, like we're a whole big complicated thing.
And you really need to make sure that...
You negotiate with yourself well.
So how we talk about parenting is also how we talk about things with ourselves.
All right, let's do one last question roundtable thing.
We're going to start with Izzy. People who come into the chat, and listen, no hate, no problem.
I'm really, really glad that people are bringing these perspectives in.
It's very, very important. So there is a certain amount of snidiness or sarcasm when it comes to peaceful parenting, and Izzy's going to take a swing at this.
I just checked with her earlier. And so somebody's coming in, and you hear this kind of stuff all the time.
It's like the sort of commentary or the parody, in a sense, is the parent who says, It's okay, Johnny.
You may have ice cream for dinner.
I want to respect your feelings as an independent...
Human being, and so you can have your ice cream, and you can stay up till 3 o'clock in the morning watching YouTube, because that's what you want to do, and I want to honor your blah, blah, blah, right?
So, right, okay, so...
No, but that's a question that people come up, because they think in these binary extremes, right?
Like, it's either, you know, you pound the kid into submission and mold them like a hard piece of plasticine into a mirror image of your own messed up self, or...
They completely run the roost.
There's no negotiation. There's no rules.
There's nothing. Something in between would be best.
You can't just say, it's okay, Johnny, have ice cream and popsicles for dinner or whatever.
Right. But you also, you could say maybe something like, okay, well, you can have your meal first, whether it's rice, vegetables, hamburger, whatever.
Have your dinner first, and then you can have some ice cream.
And then maybe we can do something a little after dinner.
Maybe we can watch, I don't know, one of his episodes or whatever and go to bed.
But I mean, it can be like, do whatever you want.
Like, as your example, stay up to 3am and eat ice cream the entire time.
Well, so, I remember when...
Have you guys ever just raised your hands if you've seen the movie 2001, The Space Odyssey?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, okay.
So in the movie 2001, they use the music in a fantastic way.
It's not actually that great a movie, and the last half of it is completely incomprehensible.
But nonetheless, there is this great song.
Remember how this song goes?
It's really dramatic, right?
And it's when a spaceship is docking or some big thing is happening in the movie, right?
And I remember holding up the first piece of chocolate.
Well, my daughter was very little.
You were very little. And I knew the moment...
It's like Luna with her screens and her kids, right?
The moment that this chocolate passes from my hand to my child...
Right?
That it was going to be...
You cross the Rubicon. You go to this whole new place where the kid is now aware...
Of sugar. Of sugar.
I remember mom's...
You guys have told this before.
And I remember mom still says, yeah, I don't know why he gave it to her when she was two.
Well, I like to be liked.
The best way I do it was just sugar.
I mean, otherwise I have to be...
It's my personality, right? So I knew that given the...
So the sugar then, the sugar becomes a big wrestle, right?
And I don't know if you remember this, but when we would talk about sugar, do you remember the tongue and the body thing?
I don't remember that. So I would say that there's what your tongue likes.
Oh, what your body likes.
And what your body likes, right? And the two are not always in step.
And we all have this problem that we're drawn to bright colors.
We're born to sugar. Do you remember why?
Because it's like it's if it's fruit, and it's really good for you, and it's a rare thing to have.
Yeah, it draws us to fruit, it draws us to honey, other big sources of calories, and we needed fruit in order to survive, so bright colors, why candies have bright colors, skittles have bright colors.
Skittles are like neon. I remember I ate one skittle, my entire tongue turned big yellow.
That's right, that's right. And also, we didn't evolve with candy in the environment, right?
Candy takes our desire for fruit and It makes our brains go crazy for it, and sugar is really...
Should we just take a moment?
Let's take a moment to appreciate sugar. Let's just take a moment to enjoy even the very idea of sugar.
Oh, top three. Top three sugars.
Go. I'm going to go with Nutella.
Yeah. Oh, man, those ice cream bars.
Oh, the vanilla ice cream bars with vanilla chocolate outings?
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, my goodness.
There's one other that I absolutely love, but I can't remember the moment.
So... I'd say Oreos.
Like, those are, like, my main top three.
There are definitely more I like more, but it's just, like, the names can't come to me at the moment.
Here's the great tragedy. Have we ever had a bag of Oreos in the house?
No. Never. We had, like, one of those little cups that we got once and we ate, like, half of them and then they went stale because we just put them at the top of the cupboard.
And you're very good at, you'll take candy, you'll keep candy, but you won't eat it.
At least that we can tell.
At least that you can tell.
No, like I have this thing, or at least I did for the longest time anyways.
We got rid of a bunch of it recently.
Or not recently, like last year.
But anyways, I have like four Halloween bags of candy.
Oh, giant bags. You feed an army.
I have like a little spare cupboard we were using and I just filled it with all my candy.
And I have, it was the candy cupboard or candy jar or something like that.
And I just had bags and bags of candy.
Like I wouldn't eat it. I'd just like have it and I'd collect it.
Oh, you could invade Russia with these things.
Like, you could feed an army, like, throughout a Cossack winter.
I had, like, a bag. I'd just, like, sit in it.
I'd be like, okay, that's a lot of chocolate.
Let's just sit in it now. Right.
And so teaching you that...
And look, we all... I don't know if you guys are sugar addicts.
I mean, raise your hand if you like sugar maybe a little too much.
Anybody? Anybody?
Anybody? Both my hands.
Luna, sorry, there's something above you.
I think there's a spider coming down.
Sorry, I just wanted to make her feel included in the conversation.
I think my eye may have come on camera.
So that issue of sugar is what your tongue likes and what your body likes.
Your body likes vegetables.
Your tongue doesn't like them as much because they were more common.
Your tongue likes sugar and salt and fats a lot of times, but your body doesn't like it as much.
Just trying to get that match up now.
But, of course, the first thing you want to do if you want your kids to eat well is you have to be somewhat committed to eating well yourself, right?
I mean, you have to just make that, model that behavior.
It's like you can't expect your kids to learn the language you don't speak, like, when they're little, right?
It's exposure. So, you know, I mean, you don't see me now and down.
Every now and then I'll, you know, have, like, a little dessert thing or something like that.
Or, you know, mom makes these great Greek cookies and all of that.
Oh, yes. Sorry, I have to stop talking about this when I'm on camera.
But no, I mean, so you have to kind of model that behavior yourself.
And you have to explain, you know, what the body needs and what the tongue likes.
And, you know, there's kind of a dance in life between, between those things, you know, like the people who remember there's this COVID symptom, like people will lose their sense of taste.
And that's really tragic, right?
And you were like, I can see the upside of that.
I can see the upside of that. Like, I'd never have any sugar again.
I'd eat so healthy.
Right, right. So, but, you know, you've got to have pleasure in life, but you also want to aim for a long life, so, you know, it's kind of a balance.
But candy. But candy, yeah.
So you model it, you talk about it, but you don't just sit there and say, if the kid wants ice cream for dinner and to stay up until 3 o'clock in the morning watching YouTube, you don't just say, well, I'm going to respect your desires as an independent human being.
Because they know sometimes. But say no with a reason, right?
Yes. So I don't know if you remember the speech about what we have to deliver you to.
Yeah, you should have delivered me to adulthood being reasonable and good.
Yeah, so the way I sort of explained it...
You know, our job is to deliver our children to adulthood and...
When they're adults, we want them to look back and say, the decisions you made for me as a child are reasonably good decisions, or the decisions you helped me to make, or whatever, right?
So if your kid grows up, they're 18 years old, they're significantly overweight, they've got teeth problems, they've got nutritional issues, they've got, I don't know, whatever the effects are of no exercise and bad food, Are they going to say, I'm really, really glad that you let me have all that candy when I was a kid?
Of course they're not going to say that. No, they're not.
They're going to be like, why didn't you make me exercise?
They're going to be mad at you because now you've set them up for a life of battling weight and you've set them up for a life of...
Problems with their knees and joints.
It can also be hard for them if they're a girl.
I know if you're really overweight, it can be difficult to get pregnant sometimes.
And also, if you're really overweight, people obviously don't find that very attractive.
It can be tough to clean yourself.
It can also be hard to just get married and have dates.
So, yeah, there's not a lot of kids who...
A lot of kids are facing weight issues.
There's not a lot of kids who...
They're going to get to adulthood and then are going to say, yeah, it was really great you let me have all of those cookies when I was...
Thanks for letting me eat ice cream for dinner until 3 a.m.
Now I can't... I'm really tired all the time.
Yeah, that's like... Your kids are going to really be angry at you and for good reason when they become adults if you haven't delivered to them.
Now, again, if you have...
It's another sort of question, too.
Like, if you have this... If you're dour, no, you can't have any pleasure because that's irresponsible kind of thing, then they may look back and say, you know, a couple of bits of candy would not have been the end of the world, and it would make childhood a little bit more sparkly and fun.
So I don't know. I'm sort of an Aristotelian, middle-of-the-road kind of guy, and I know some people are very anti-sugar, and I can really understand that as well.
There's some arguments for that too.
But... I really want, you know, when Izzy's now 12 and a half-ish, right?
So, you know, she's going to be an adult in math years.
Wait, what was that? Wait, what?
Just kidding. I'm so, wait, what?
Carrie the four? No, so she's going to be an adult.
She's going to be relatively soon, right?
Yeah. And, you know, I want you to look back and say...
Yeah, you know, I think the decisions you made were good.
These are decisions I can consider replicating with my own kids.
But just what are the kids going to be feeling if you just let them have ice cream for dinner all the time?
How are they going to view your parenting when they're old and have, you know, massive health issues?
It's been a short time, but not when they're older.
Yeah, and they won't respect you either if you don't have a presence.
Like, two people both have to be present for a negotiation, right?
Yeah. I mean, if I just... We make jokes about it, but if I folded on everything, it would be kind of tough to have a relationship with me because I wouldn't be there in a way.
Yeah. So you've got to negotiate.
And if you folded... Sorry.
No, but if you folded on everything, it wouldn't be a relationship either, right?
Oh my goodness me, when it comes to an argument, or not an argument, like a discussion, or something like that, absolutely no.
Never. I never fold on anything.
No, but you have to. I mean, I do, but not really.
No, we fold on reason and legitimate requests and stuff like that.
But no, you have to both be there to be negotiating.
And if you're just saying to your kid, eat whatever you want for dinner, then you're not actually there as a person.
You're not actually having a relationship.
To eliminate your own needs in a relationship is to not be in a relationship, just to be exploited or whatever it is.
So sorry for the long speech, but how would you guys answer this question?
It's okay, Johnny. You can have ice cream for dinner.
I want to respect your feelings as an independent human being.
Do whatever you want. I have a thought related to that.
Can you imagine running a business that way?
Hey, I know you want 60% of my company for five grand.
I'm going to respect your thoughts as a human being, and there you go.
Oh, I know you want to come into work at noon.
Sure, why not?
I'm going to respect your thoughts as a human being.
Well, here's the thing, too.
You want to prepare your kids for adulthood.
And, of course, adults, when they go out into the world, they're not going to have that relationship where people can just, oh, do whatever you want, it doesn't matter, express your inner blah, blah, blah.
That's not how the world works, and you do need to prepare your kids.
If you taught your kids some secret language that was only you and your kids knew, and then they had to go out into the world and try and function, it would be pretty tough, right?
It would be. The world isn't going to treat you like just do whatever you want.
Giving your kids that is actually not being a good parent because you're not preparing them for the real world.
I do have a question.
The way that I manage my sugar intake is essentially a quota.
So I'm not doing to the gram or anything like that, but it's like I only really consume sugar maybe a little bit when I'm working or, you know, after dinner.
So it's like, hey, so for me to be healthy, I've decided to do X, and, you know, I'd like you to be healthy too, so would you be willing to do the same thing or something to that effect?
In your experience being a parent, do you think something like that would be an effective way to peacefully parent your children?
I think as long as the kids are going to understand why the decisions are being made, then I think that's important.
And, you know, when you're out in the world, you will see kids who are overweight, right?
And you'll see them at the play centers, you'll see them at the parks, and they won't be able to do those hand-over-hand things.
They'll be out of breath. I was so mad that I was too young and I couldn't do those.
Oh, yeah, absolutely. So you'll see and you'll say, you know, you don't want to have that sort of pointed out, right?
And use them as a, you know, without shaming or anything, but use them as a learning example and say, you remember how that kid couldn't climb the rope?
You know, that's not particularly great.
And, you know, if you're at the water park and there are kids who are having trouble with the water park because of being overweight, you can say, well, you don't.
Or you can say, you know, if I was overweight, I couldn't come and do all of these cool things with you.
I couldn't go to the water park very easily.
I couldn't, you know, do the playing and the play centers and so on.
And you like that I can do that.
And, you know, if my parents had let me eat too much, then I wouldn't be able to.
So, you know, just having a lot of conversations.
You want a 360 mirror, the whole thing, so that, you know, they look at the overweight kid and say, well, yeah, I don't really want that.
And then, you know, we talked about this a while ago about how You know, gosh, I mean, dieting is, I don't know if it's a huge scam or anything like that, but, you know, how many people who are overweight, I mean, significantly overweight, how many people lose weight and keep it off?
Do you remember we talked about this?
Oh, it was like 98% don't do it.
98% of people who, you know, want to lose weight, either don't lose the weight, they gain the weight, or they lose the weight and put back as much, if not more.
Like, once you have that weight, it's, you know...
Really hard to lose weight. It's a lifelong struggle.
It's a lot of problems.
And, you know, why would you want that?
Or as the saying goes, you know, once on the lips, forever on the hips.
It's a sort of female statement, right?
You enjoy the pleasure of the taste once, but it stays on your belly forever, right?
We often have a bit of sugar, sometimes a little bit after lunch.
Well, my mom will make these cookies in a hopper.
They're, like, not very sugary.
We reduce all the sugar in the recipes and stuff.
They're basically just kind of Greek cookies.
Yeah. So we'll sometimes have one of those after lunch and maybe a little something after dinner if we have any other desserts.
But, I mean, we really don't have that much.
And it's not every day. It's often, as I've...
I think I mentioned this before, like, we'll have our sugar on the weekends and we try not to have really any during the week.
So, I mean, we don't have a lot of sugar, so I think it's...
It's good not to have a lot of sugar, but I think occasionally just letting yourself have a bunch can be okay.
Well, I remember when I first went to...
So I was sort of paying my own bills since I was 15.
And by the time I got to university, I really wanted to be in university.
I really wanted to do well.
Whereas a lot of the kids who, you know, their parents were paying.
They didn't take it very seriously.
You want to teach kids discipline by exposing them to temptation in a way and having them manage it, right?
Because you know the thing where I experimented with a bit of drinking alcohol when I was in my, I was like, I don't know, 17 or whatever.
And I was like, oh, this is really not any fun.
So when I went to college, I didn't really have any interest in drinking in particular, right?
And again, I'm not saying do anything against the law or anything, but if you simply Keep all temptation away from your kids.
I'm not sure that you're teaching them how to manage the inevitable temptations that are going to occur in life when you're old enough.
Like, when I was a kid, I don't know if you ever had this thought.
You're a kid, and you know, this is the evil thing they do at the grocery stores.
They put all of the bright candy at eye level on the checkout counter and stuff like that.
And I remember thinking, oh man, I can't wait till, when I have a paycheck.
I think that all the time.
You think that? It's starting to happen a little less, but I mean, whenever I'm a kid, I live, well not whenever I'm a kid, sorry.
Like when I was younger, I mean, I always look at these candies and I'm just like, oh man, when I become like 15 or 20, like when I become 15, I get like, I don't know, maybe I'll get a job and I can...
I thought when I was older I'd just get more allowance.
I actually asked to not get allowance because I'm like, I'm going to do more stuff by just actually helping my mom clean the house and get a little bit of money for that.
You wanted to store up your allowance so you'd get it all at once and feel more meaningful, right?
It wouldn't actually... No, I just asked for no allowance and asked.
I'll do it occasionally. From getting a little bit off the shows because you get donations and I help out with some of the shows.
This one is an example. I also help my mom clean the house and stuff like that.
I will take no allowance just for this, but I didn't really think that to happen when I was really young.
I was like, more money the better.
The more money means you can buy more candy.
My main goal when I was younger was to get candy.
When I get a paycheck or my allowance goes up, I will buy all this candy and I'll just eat it.
Scoop it all up. I'm going to come with the entire shopping cart.
Clean out the place. Now I'm a complete hoarder when it comes to money.
I'll be like, oh my goodness, that's $3.
Can I pay it? Oh yeah, yeah.
No, and I remember, I forgot about that, that we gave you an allowance and then you said you didn't want it because, you know, felt it was reasonable to do the chores anyway.
Yeah, I was like, I think I was nine when I'm like, you know what, I'll just not take an allowance and I'll take my money.
I'll like actually work for my money instead of just like...
Get it for breathing. Yeah, yeah.
All right, so sorry for that divergence, but yeah, so if you guys wanted to, and we'll stick to the people who have kids at the moment, sorry for Jared and Seth, but Tim, how do you deal with this sort of caricature of peaceful parenting that is just complete, you know, license for hedonism for the kids? Yeah.
Like, so one thing that we do is I've reversed the negotiation.
So she asks for something and then I say no.
And then she goes, well, but I say, well, it's not, we're not done yet.
Why don't you try to make a deal with me?
Like, what are you going to give me in exchange for that?
Like, appeal to my profit motive.
And she's like, what's that? You know, and I'm like, you got to make me want to do it too.
You know, and you can, you can maybe, you know, keep, keep making different offers and we'll see what, um, If you can change my mind.
So, like, one other thing is, and I really wanted to say this, because, like, discipline is a lot like the state, I think.
So, like, then, so people will say that minarchism is okay, but, you know, what we know is that a small state will grow into a large one over time.
And if you're having like a little bit of discipline, like spanking and yelling, it's very, and I'm just saying, I'm just thinking there might be somebody else out there like me that it's really not, it's like a fire.
You can't have like, you can't control it.
It will get bigger and bigger to some point where you're going like, whoa, what am I doing here?
So it's better to just put the fire out than to try to, and then the other thing is that it just doesn't work.
I mean, it doesn't work.
And I just look back and I just think, man, I just did not have any grace for my sweet little two-year-old.
And they will do things that you just go, wow.
Just yesterday, we were in a hotel and we let her run around in the halls a little bit and she pulled the fire alarm.
You know, so the whole hotel had to get out.
Or at the house, she'll find a nail polish, and she'll kind of paint the corner of the room with the nail polish.
You see, what you can say to your kid is, thank you for helping make the day so memorable for Daddy, that it'll never be just a blurry day.
Thank you for giving me a great story and all that kind of stuff as well, right?
But see, that's partly preparation, right?
You should go. When you get to the hotel, if you can let her run around the hallway, you've got to tell her this red box is only for fire.
This is part of prep, right?
Yeah. And then the way she looks at me now and she goes, are you mad at me?
And I'm like, I'm not. I'm not mad.
I mean, I'm not mad.
And, you know, I can just see how much, like, how much concern she had.
And then she goes, oh, okay, you know.
I'm like, and then we do explain, yeah, there's a little red box.
Don't touch that. Or if you do touch it, at least set a fire.
So that it's justified in some manner.
Just kidding. Don't do that. I just say, you need to have grace for your kids.
Especially the little ones.
They... Because...
They deserve it. And then they don't really know what they're doing.
And the sooner you can just, like, just realize, just factor it in.
Factor in from the start that they're going to do a lot of stuff like that.
And then when it happens, you go, okay, well, you've ripped, you know, this nice piece of art off the wall.
And they're just like that a little bit.
So... I would just say factor in the grace.
How long would it take for you to get used to if you were abducted by aliens and went to a completely alien planet?
Or Japan.
How long would it take for you to get entirely used to the situation, the environment, the language, to feel perfectly at home?
It would take you years and years and years and you'd make a bunch of mistakes and that's just natural, right?
Yeah. But if they weren't making mistakes, there'd be no point to parent.
You'd turn them loose at the hospital when they're born, right?
Yeah. Yeah, and then I do regret it.
One last thing, because I remember you had a podcast where you were talking about Like turning parenting into a real-time relationship discussion.
And then it's been very helpful for me to empower my five-year-old because I tell her that it's not just an option for me to be nice to her or not.
I have to be nice to her because When she gets older, she's going to have the ability.
I'm explaining this. She understands this.
Like, when she gets older, she's going to have the ability to not see me or be around me.
And if I'm not nice to her now, then when she gets older, she's going to be able to avoid me.
And then, so, I think she understands that.
She goes, oh, well, you're not doing this just because you're being nice, but because you're doing it for your own profit.
Like, That gives her power in the relationship.
And then I also use that for her when sometimes they get rough with each other, especially when they're first starting out.
I've seen my You know, now a five-year-old hit my three-year-old pretty hard.
But then I said, you can't do stuff like that.
And she goes, for the same argument, when you guys get older, she might not want to see you when you become adults.
And if you're not nice to her now, you know, like you want to be friends forever, you know, the A to Z thing.
And I really think that that argument was something that she comprehended well.
It's really useful for modifying their behavior.
Oh, yeah, we've had those conversations, too.
You'll have to see me when you get older.
And my goal, of course, is to hopefully continue to provide value to you as we go forward in life, right?
Just give me some chocolate and I'll be totally happy.
That's why bribery is so important.
You've got to bribe the children with chocolate and they'll stay.
All right. Natalie, what are your...
What are your thoughts on this issue of permissiveness and peaceful parenting?
Yeah, I've heard some arguments about, like, oh, peaceful parenting, like, well, you know, that's fine, but kids need discipline, or they, you know, and, you know, it's, like, it's not an either-or, and discipline, like, the Root of the word is to teach.
Discipline is not about punishment.
It's about teaching the skills that your child is showing you that they maybe need practice with.
I would say that if somebody wants to characterize Peaceful parenting as, oh, you just let them do whatever they want because you have to respect their preferences and stuff.
That ignores parental responsibility, as you say, to deliver them to adulthood as intact, capable human beings.
And maybe a three-year-old doesn't understand that You know, and you can explain, and we've done, I've used your, what the tongue wants, and what the tummy wants, with sugar and stuff.
Like, those types of explanations really help.
Like, I'm not saying no, because, you know, I don't want you to be happy.
I'm saying no, because it's my job to help you stay healthy.
It's my job to help you Regulate some of these things until you can do it yourself.
It's like being a doctor. The doctor doesn't say things to you because the doctor's mean.
The doctor is trying to help you be healthy.
I mean, so you got to take some feedback, right?
Right, right. So I, you know, it's not, it's not either, you know, strict, authoritarian, like my way or the highway, or the kids walk all over you.
Like that's not, that's not what peaceful parenting or respectful parenting is.
At all. And, and it has more to do with listening to what your child or watching and observing what your child is showing you through their action, you know, especially the little kids who are maybe, you know, it's less of the verbal negotiations and more like watching your child You know if they're struggling with something or they're being overwhelmed by feelings they can't express and they you know they want to pinch you or you know stomp or slug their brother or whatever you know you're you're you know you're kind of um I've heard it described as like scaffolding right like so while the building is being built you as a parent you're like the scaffolding that's helping helping You know,
build those connections in their brain.
Like the training wheels. Yeah, yeah, like you're helping, you're providing them that support and opportunities to practice.
You know, a kid isn't just gonna resist sugar on their own because it's a good thing, you know, like, they maybe need, you know, okay, this is what sugar is, and yes, it's delicious, and you know, All right.
And, you know, this is why we don't have it all the time or too much.
And then, you know, sure, you can have some.
And then, you know, when the answer is sometimes no or when it's okay, well, that's enough.
We're stopping for today.
Like, you know, helping them cope with that limit, helping them work through that and practice.
Like, it's okay.
I really like sugar, but it's not You know, it's not helping, you know, it's not helping me grow.
I need to, my body needs variety.
Like, you know, you can help provide them with, you know, by providing those limits and those opportunities to practice the things that they do need to learn.
Like, that's That's what I, in my view, that's what discipline, that's what discipline is, is help them.
Yeah, I mean, so Izzy, how many times have you said, would you like some sugar?
And I say...
No. But I say first...
Yes, I'd love some sugar, but I, you know, but I, you know, it's not great for me.
So, yeah, I mean, you know, when your kid says, I really, really want a candy bar, you're like, not as much as I do.
I love sugar, too.
I love all of this kind of stuff, right?
So, you know, the kid can then recognize that you also want the sugar, that it's not like, no, sugar's bad for you.
You shouldn't want the sugar. Like, that's, you know, we all have that.
And it may not be sugar. It could be something else, right?
Yeah. Luna, do you want to take us home with this issue, if it exists, around this caricature?
Maybe the mom's group were like, oh, that Luna, she just lets her kids do whatever they want.
It's like, Well, kind of, but if you raise your kids right, what they want to do is not crazy, at least hopefully.
Hopefully. So we offer lots of options, but we recognize that we are the models for our kids.
So for my daughter, she actually thinks that muscle milk is a treat.
From 18 months, she's known about fiber, fat, and protein, and What they're all good for.
She knows that sugar tastes good, but it's not particularly good for you.
She is a fruit fiend, but she knows there's just a little bit of fiber.
It's mostly sugar. So she always asks for more fruit.
And I just let her know, you know, we've had enough for breakfast.
We'll have some more for lunch.
How's that? And then she's satisfied with...
She's satisfied with...
That response. That's Luna's kids texting her because they're on screen.
I'm just kidding. Just kidding. And then basically I load her up with options all day.
So when I do have to have some non-negotiable things like you have to hold my hand when we cross the street or actually our options right now are you hold my hand or I pick you up.
Which would you like to do? Because that's how we can be safe and it's my job to protect you.
She basically has very little resistance to any demands that I make because I load her up with options all day and she's just really happy with that.
Oh, fantastic. Well, listen, guys, I feel we could talk about this all day.
Really, really appreciate everyone dropping by.
Thanks so much. Yeah, that was really fun.
We should do another one of these.
We should do another one of these. I know we've got great feedback from people in the audience, and Jared has several offers of marriage and babysitting, so we'll obviously be forwarding those for a certain price.
And yeah, thanks everyone so much for dropping by and give us your feedback below if you want to help out with the show, freedomain.com forward slash donate.
I'd appreciate that. And yeah, really, really appreciate, you know, everybody open their hearts and minds.
It's the biggest human thing that we've got going on.
That we can really control is the parenting stuff.
And I just love you guys all so much for dropping by and sharing all of the stuff with everyone.
And you can send your questions.
I guess you can send them to call in at freedomain.com.
If you'd like us to chew on other stuff or if you want to join in, you can join my freedomain.locals.
Groups are freedomand.locals.com.
You can join that group. I'll be posting the invites there as well for next time.
Lots of love from up here.
Big hugs to all the kids out there and all the parents.
Thank you so much. And have a wonderful, wonderful afternoon.
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