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Jan. 24, 2021 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:49:52
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Time Text
Good evening, everybody.
Stefan Molyneux from Free Domain.
Oh, gosh.
You know what? I will leave this to the crew.
Opening speech-o-rama.
Smidge of current events.
Or should we go straight to the callers?
James, if you could just collate people.
I'll ramble for 20 seconds until we get an answer.
Because I got a couple of things bubbling around in the old noggin.
But... At the same time, I'm kind of aware that we go just a little bit long on shows from time to time.
And do we do opening speech or do we do straight into the callers?
I can bottle up the opening speech until, I don't know, maybe tomorrow or whatever.
So that's not essential, but it would not be the end of the world to do it.
So what are people saying?
What have we got? If we could just go straight into it.
I got to go to Midnight Shift later tonight.
So I depart at like 1030.
So I don't have... Opening speech it is!
No, I'm just kidding. Because I'm all about pleasing the listeners.
Okay, we'll dive straight in.
I'll do the opening speech another time.
James, you want to read it off and we'll dig in?
Oh, we'll do. We'll do.
All right. So we have a caller tonight who writes...
I have a very unusual situation stemming from genetics that is complicating on what to do with my family.
My parents have been married nearly 40 years, but two of the three children are blind or partially blind because of a rare medical disease.
My mother was incorrectly pronounced sterile after my brother's birth.
I was carried a term against medical advice and, like something out of a book, born with 20-20 vision.
I've spoken about this with a friend of mine and he has urged me multiple times to present it to you despite how no win it seems.
I've had very little to do with my siblings while growing up because of the age disparity and also because, as a kid, I honestly had no idea how to approach interacting with a sensitive issue of disability and took my dad's answer of just not saying anything.
Fast forward to the present.
I'm 29, my brother 35, and my sister 39.
My brother is currently facing felony charges for being caught with heroin, while his one working eye is on the verge of giving out.
My sister is chronically obese, over 40% BMI, and I am doing relatively well for myself despite the...
Not 40%. Sorry, it's not 40.
It's 40, right? It's 40+.
It's a plus for over 40 BMI. I'm just trying to keep the nitpickers out of the comments, man.
As best we can herd them off, that would be great.
Okay, go ahead. No, not a problem.
I put the correction in.
Over 40 BMI. And I am doing relatively well for myself, despite the ongoing chaos.
I'm doing exercising, reading, self-improvement stuff.
I've been haunted for the longest time as to why I came out so radically different from my siblings, but such talks have never gotten me anything beyond the reminder that it's not worth digging up.
I've tried three times.
Given how avoidant my parents have been in avoiding any kind of discussion as to why these endings are what they are, I wanted to request on how you would go about how you would set behavioral standards with these disabilities, since my guess is that it's from my inability to answer the you-don't-know-what-it's-like-to-be-blind excuse I've led here.
An outside opinion on this from someone who's heard other adverse stories I think would hold higher value than anyone I currently keep in contact with.
Any insight that you can offer would be a great help.
I'm likely going to have to be the one to bury all of them within the next five years.
So some help of what, despite disability, can be used to discern poor choice from victimhood is needed.
Wow, that's a hell of a story.
And I'm obviously sorry for what's gone on with your siblings.
They're not in the call, so obviously try and keep things very general.
But is there anything else that you wanted to add about their histories or what you might think has gone wrong?
Yeah. From what I've heard last with my brother, his eye probably isn't going to be recovering.
I think there's going to be some situations where he can get the horse glasses to maybe partially read a screen.
But I'm 95% sure he's going to be legally blind for the rest of his life.
And being in that situation where you're kind of in limbo for house arrest and what the courts are going to decide what to do with you, it's been very difficult to think of anything to really say.
It's just kind of an uneasy silence whenever the topic comes up.
And as for history, would you want to know more about my siblings or my parents or what would you like to know?
Wasn't the half-blind guy one of your siblings?
Yeah, he's my brother.
Yeah, the heroin guy, right? Now, is his eye degeneration, is that genetic?
Is that environmental? Is that based on drug use or what's going on?
Genetic, from what I've been told.
It's the same disease that my sister had, but she was born blind.
She never had vision.
And he was born originally with both of his eyes working, but the, I think it's the optic nerve degenerated on his first blind eye.
And now a similar issue is happening with his second one, some 30 so years later.
Right. I mean, I'm sure that the drug addiction is not exactly helping though.
Yeah, that's the other thing.
He led a very typical, like, bar-goer, I-want-to-be-popular kind of persona, and a lot of the activities of that era were quite detrimental to the health.
That's one of the reasons why I think I turned out so differently.
So what are you talking about, like, the habits that he had?
We were drinking, smoking, or what are we talking about?
Drinking, smoking.
He was always very concerned with going downtown to meet the up-and-comers, entrepreneurs who were making money hand over fist.
And I think at around 17 or 18, he actually got kicked out of high school.
And he got his first job downtown.
And I think my dad says that's kind of just when he's never been the same, because I think that's when he started getting more involved with the hardcore drugs, as opposed to the common recreational ones that you usually see teenagers using with.
So do you know what sort of environment he was in where the harder drugs became part of his life?
That's the difficult thing to say because my brother is about five or seven years older than me, so I just had very, very little to do with him because very often he was out of the house and often the only time I would ever see him was when he came home to go to bed.
So it's kind of hard for me to give a lot of details on the specifics of their history just because I'm a lot younger than them, and you level up a lot faster when you're in the first decade or so of your life.
So we never really had any instance to relate for the longest time.
So I know very little about my siblings, more than just being the usual distant story.
This is like...
You know, like, yeah, I know nobody likes to bring along their baby brother, but he's like five years younger than you when you're like 10.
It's just, it's really hard.
It's like babysitting. So I just never had anything to do with him.
Right, right, right.
It's a stupid decision that they made, right, to not...
You know, a lack of affection between siblings...
Or taking siblings for granted or not thinking younger siblings are cool, you know, finding yourself annoyed at the tag along and shit like that.
That's just about the worst decision any human being can ever make.
I'd just be straight up with you about that.
It's just about the worst decision.
Now, this is something that I've talked about before and Mike Cernovich was mentioning this the other day about his...
He's got two daughters. I think they're aiming for a third at the moment.
And he said to his daughter about her sister, like, he said, listen, your relationship with your sister is the most important thing.
It's more important than your relationship with mom and I. And so the basic reason, and I've talked to a lot of siblings over the years about this.
So your sibling is the one who can do, she can do the whole journey.
He or she can do the whole journey with you.
Parents are going to die when you're in middle age, if you're lucky, right?
Right. And friends come and go.
Most people you date, you don't get married to.
And even if you get married to, you know, I mean, I'm happily married, but my wife wasn't around for my childhood.
I wasn't around for hers.
But siblings, I mean, they can go the whole distance.
They can go a whole A to Z, man.
They can go all the way through life's big gates up to the final pearly one.
And sibling relationships are the number one thing that people should be focusing on improving and maintaining.
But you and I both know exactly what happens with the vast majority of sibling relationships.
If you're the younger sibling, you're annoying.
You're in the way. You're slowing me down.
I want to hang out with my friends, man.
What are you doing in the way?
Get out the way. Get off the couch.
Put down the controller. It's my turn.
I'm bigger. Move aside.
And younger siblings, in general, are treated like shit.
Like an annoyance, like eczema.
There's not much time spent mentoring.
There's not much time spent chatting.
There's not pride.
Because, you know, the older sibling with his friends or her friends, they're like, hey man, let's go!
Ah, what do you want to bring your youngest, your kid brother for, your kid sister?
Ah, come on, he's such a drag.
Now, any sane human being would be like, well, you assholes are going to come and go.
We're all going to scatter at the end of junior high school or high school or whatever.
I'm never going to see you assholes again.
But this brother of mine, we can go A to Z, man.
We're lifelong. We're lifelong.
I don't think, and I've talked to a lot of siblings over the years, both in the show and out of the show, because I'm quite fascinated by sibling relationships, as you can tell from my novel Almost.
That never happens. It never happens where the sibling, the older sibling says to his Deadbeat, usually loser friends.
And it doesn't mean that they're terrible people.
It just means that they're loser friends insofar as they're just not going to stick around.
The older sibling never says, hey, man, you guys are just people I hang with.
My younger brother is my flesh and blood.
He's going to... We're from the same womb, man.
He's with me for life.
You guys are just... Passer-by's.
The hell would I ditch him for the sake of you?
Are you crazy? I've never once heard, never once heard that happen in 40 years of talking about this stuff.
Never once. Now, maybe it's...
I've just had bad luck, but I don't think it happens.
I mean, even by regular psychological standards, normie standards, mainstream standards, 50% of sibling relationships are actually abusive.
Not neglectful, not, oh, there's just not maximum love there, or sometimes there's slips.
like actually abusive. - Right, well-- - Hang on, Sorry. I'm so sorry. I took the pause there.
Let me just finish this little thing.
It is related, I promise you, to what it is you're talking about.
I know you've got to get to work. But siblings treat each other like shit.
And I don't know why parents obviously allow for this.
How is this possible?
How is this possible?
That there's such treacherous relationships.
So, I'll tell you where I'm at, just so you know where I'm coming from in this conversation.
If people don't take my advice, I don't care what happens to them.
That is the tough, Viking, Northern European, long fucking winter Mindset that we have to start adopting.
We, as people who think, we have to start adopting this.
If people don't take my advice, I don't care what happens to them.
They can do what they want. I'm no longer invested.
Now, that doesn't mean that my advice is always right and everybody has to obey me.
It's just if they openly reject Honest and decent, well-meaning advice.
Or we don't even have a discussion about it.
They just brush it off. They don't give me counter-arguments or counter-data.
They're just... Nope. Then I simply cannot afford to care about what happens to people.
So there's this thing going on with Joe Biden at the moment.
So Joe Biden's... I think it's some executive order where men who identify as women...
We're completely allowed to compete in all female sports and use female locker rooms, right?
And here's the sad thing.
It's the sad, pitiful thing.
The sad, pitiful place that we are as a society is that people are getting mad at Joe Biden.
Can you believe what Joe Biden is doing?
This is going to destroy female sports.
Yeah, maybe. Yeah, maybe.
But why are people getting mad at Joe Biden?
Joe Biden is only president because of women.
The spread between women who voted for Trump and women who voted for Biden was 25 goddamn percent.
25 goddamn percent.
Women outvoted men and got this addled, thousand-yard stare dude into the White House.
He is a reflection of what women want.
Women put him there.
Now, what he's doing is bet 50 million, whatever, 70, whoever, 100 million, I don't know what the number is, right?
The vast majority of women who voted, voted for Biden.
But Biden is somehow just...
No, he said this is what he said he was going to do.
It's not a surprise. It's not a shock.
So... 100 million women, or whatever it is, vote for Biden.
When Biden says, this is what I'm going to do, so they chose him.
They give him the power. They hand over the reins.
They give him the White House. And somehow, you have one guy promising to do something.
You've got 100 million women who say, yay, here's all the keys to the kingdom.
And it's that one guy's fault.
It's like everybody just steps over the 100 million women who voted for him.
Again, I don't know what the actual number is or something like that, right?
So, who's destroying women's sports?
Women! Women are destroying women's sports, and I want the, you know, young women who listen to this show, you know, if you were skeptical of the virtues and values of Joseph Biden, and your mom and your grandmother and your aunts were all like, oh, he's a Democrat, we've got to vote for him.
Like, well, they're killing your sports if that's what happens, right?
They're the ones who... I've got to have you changing under a towel in the change room.
They're the ones who mean you can't get a scholarship on sports.
Your mother who voted for Biden is the one who destroyed women's sport.
It's not Joe Biden! God!
We've got 100 million women making choices.
And we blame one guy.
That's how sad we are.
So, yeah, people are going to get...
It's going to be bad.
The economy is going to be bad.
Immigration is going to be overwhelming.
Legalization of undocumented Americans is going to go through the roof.
And they're going to position them in swing states so that they swing forever to the left.
And there's going to be a world of hurt.
Now, let me ask, and I don't care.
I don't care. I'm not like sit back with the popcorn and enjoy the show because the show is going to be horrible.
But, you know, if you say to someone, you've got to quit smoking, you've got to quit smoking, and they laugh at you, and they mock at you, and they make fun of you, and they insult you in public, okay?
I don't care what happens to you now.
I don't care what happens to you now.
And the reason I said Northern European is you say to your neighbor, man, You gotta prepare some food for the winter, man.
You can't just be playing guitar all summer and chasing butterflies.
You gotta prepare for some food.
It's gonna be a long winter, man.
And he laughs at you and he mocks you and calls you uptight, man.
You're such a square.
You don't know how to have fun, man.
Okay, winter comes. He's really hungry.
I don't care. So if you give advice and people don't care, They insult.
They mock. They laugh at you.
They ignore you.
You've got to train yourself.
You've got to train yourself and harden yourself to not care what happens to people who don't take good advice.
Now, let me ask you this then.
What advice did you give your siblings When you were growing up?
I was seldom around them to where I was even ever asked any input whatsoever.
I don't think questions often traded at all in our household.
So there wasn't as much advice as much as there was telling people what to do.
And usually that did not go well.
Can you give me some examples?
Just say nothing was advice that I took.
Because, you know, I think...
From your parents? From my father.
Because my mother is very bad at handling situations of reality.
My sister, I think, is of a...
That's a good way to put it. Well, my sister is of a similar vein just because she kind of turned into a mainstream media consumer who only does the reacting thing that they're kind of programming for.
My brother, obviously, but just by his outcome, is proof that he...
Whatever advice he did take, it wasn't very good.
And yeah, basically, I kind of just spent my whole life doing the opposite of what everyone around me was doing, and I came out pretty good.
Well, you know, and so they've left their mark, right?
They've left their mark in your good behavior.
Okay, so did your parents make suggestions to your siblings that were good or decent or reasonable?
I was usually not in the same room when those type of talks were occurring.
So I don't remember any specific account of me witnessing those conversations.
It was usually in their bedroom.
It usually left that aura in the air of after someone got done arguing and the whole house just stayed silent for hours.
But my father would frequently try to get my brother to get his act together.
And, uh, it just didn't really work out and I think things got complicated because at one point he actually was making a shit ton of money and, like, gave my dad, like, several thousands of dollars and just said, like, don't worry about it.
Which, uh, you know, we also didn't have good cards with their income because my father was a Day trader and my mother was a real estate agent.
Both of those industries kind of nosedived hard during the housing bubble.
And yeah, like the market stagnated.
There was a lot of federal intervention.
That's one thing I will appreciate.
My dad, he just says like, always hate the Fed.
And yeah, so it was just kind of one of these things where I think there was ambiguity taught by movies and like just old dated boomer advice that kind of didn't really make what to do clear in the house.
So that's what I'm kind of hoping to gain from this phone call because no one in the house really took it upon themselves to dig for information and articulate a good standard for how we ought to behave.
Okay. Now, in the example of your life, which is going much better than your siblings, have they ever said, hey, man, you seem to have it kind of together.
What's your secret? No, not once.
Have you ever had a conversation with your sister about her diet and exercise habits?
Yes. Yes, I have.
I've made suggestions to begin with just cutting out high fructose corn syrup, try switching to seltzer water, walking every day, and that the mountain of health and fitness is much easier to take on if you just learn all the things that are just shooting yourself in the foot.
Like, just find all the things that are killing you first and stop doing those.
And in spite of all this, I hear from my father and mother that she's still not really changing in her habits.
She still likes to drink a lot of beer, a lot of soda.
She has very frequent meals throughout the day.
Her insulin never gets a chance to reset.
And yeah, it's the issue of I can't lift weights for other people.
Right, right. So, I mean, so this is the discipline, right?
I mean, you're not saying you've got to go on some Jordan Peterson all beef diet, right?
Like you're some sort of wolf, right?
You're just saying, hey, you know, you could have soda water instead of pop.
And listen, everybody who's over 25 should just do that.
And you shouldn't really drink pop to begin with, but I know if we're like younger people, right?
You just have to, you know, you can throw a little lemon in it so it's not so bad.
You can maybe squeeze a little fruit juice in it, you know, to give it some flavor.
But yeah, of course, you've got to avoid high fructose, you've got to avoid sugar, you've got to avoid, you know, this is not brain surgery, right?
You're not talking about some obscure avocado and penguin diet, right?
Right. So, yeah, so she's not doing that stuff, right?
No, she's not. Okay, so you have to train yourself out of caring what happens to her.
Otherwise, it's a form of masochism, right?
It's a form of masochism.
If you are swimming out to save someone who's drowning and that person keeps choking you and punching you and elbowing you in the nose and you might actually get knocked unconscious and drown yourself, what do you have to do?
Oh, that's the thing from the lifeguard safety course.
You got to make sure that your own self is secure before you can ever hope to save another person.
You got to back away, right?
Yeah. Now, you might talk to them for a bit.
If they won't calm down, you may have to watch them drown, but you cannot go in and try and save someone if they're just going to pull you under, or at least there's a good chance, right?
There's a pretty significantly good chance that I would get pulled under.
Right. So, watching someone...
Like, if there's someone you care about, and they take a fork, and they keep stabbing their hand with a fork...
And you say, what are you, crazy?
Stop stabbing your hand with a fork?
And they say no. And they keep stabbing their hand with a fork.
What do you have to do? I would think just, like, grab the hand that has the fork and, like, try to, like, talk some sense into them.
Okay, you go forward and they threaten to stab you with the fork.
What do you do? All right, now I'm starting to back off a bit because I worked really hard to...
I am.
I'd rather not get forked to death.
Right.
So if the choice is, if you're just going to sit there and watch someone stab themselves with a fork, my advice is get out of the room.
Now, you might want to call 911 because you don't want to sit and watch someone stab themselves to death with a fork or stab themselves repeatedly because that's stuck in your brain, right?
It's traumatic. It's horrible.
Yeah, and it's also particularly difficult because I'm aware that when you do that kind of self-harm to yourself, you're really also destroying anyone that's connected to you.
And that's why I've always kind of felt so bad for my parents because...
A lot of these things they do to themselves, and they don't realize that you have to love yourself to love your family.
Okay, so we may have the root of the issue here, which is you think I'm talking about your siblings, but I'm talking about your entire family.
Why do your parents get off the hook about this stuff?
Well, my mother does her best to just deny everything and pretend like everything's fine.
Like, have you seen that meme of the yellow dog sitting in the burning house and then it just says, this is fine?
Yeah. Yeah, that's basically her.
Okay, so that's a choice, right?
That's a choice. Yeah.
Okay, so she's making that choice.
Can you rescue her from the consequences of failing to notice reality, failing to process reality?
Can you fix that? Can you solve that for her?
For the people who put duct tape on the check engine light, I don't know how to fix that, no.
Well, you can't, right? No.
You just don't go on a road trip with them because it's going to break down, right?
No, I think the best thing is just get out of the car.
Right, okay. So your mother willfully denies reality, right?
Yes. Okay.
And what about your dad? He is deeply in love with my mother, still, just because they've been through a lot.
But any actual decision or, like, coming to terms with dealing with reality has always, by default, fallen on him, which is one of the reasons why I think I like him so much, because he, it's only ever been him that's dealt with the problems that came into the house.
And he doesn't want to put up the fight to try and change my mother, to get her to see what's going on.
He's kind of resigned at this point.
The three times that I brought this up, the first time I was met with, it's not worth bringing up.
The second time, he threatened to disown me.
And the third time, he just put up this resignation thing where he just says it's not worth trying.
Nobody's going to change. Everything's said and done.
Even if we had the perfect answer, it wouldn't change a thing.
I still tried to make the argument that it was at least worth the solace, the resolution.
But he's content to just quote abstract cowboy quotes about that's just how life is or God hates me or things like that.
So, yeah. Wow, there's a lot of what you just said.
Do you know much about my work on love?
I've read Real Time Relationships a long time ago.
So what the hell are you doing trying to tell me or sell me on the bullshit that your dad loves your mom?
Well, it's the narrative.
You know, my definition, right? My definition of love is our involuntary response to virtue, if we're virtuous, right?
Correct. And I think a big part...
Now, you can disagree with that.
You can disagree with that, but don't pretend I never said it.
Don't start selling me some vision of love that you can love some deluded woman child who denies reality.
You can't love that.
Now, again, you may disagree with my definition, but it's kind of weird that you just shove that four-letter word into the conversation like I'd never written an entire book about it.
I apologize. I didn't mean any frustration.
And I'd like to make an attempt to clarify what I'm trying to explain with my father's definition.
You can. And listen, it's perfectly fine that I'm annoyed.
You don't have to change anything.
You know, I have the freedom to be annoyed.
And, you know, I'm not trying to intimidate you or anything like that.
I'm just, it's annoying. And, but, you know, it's perfectly fine that I'm annoyed.
It's not a problem that I'm annoyed, just so you know.
Right. I just want to make sure I'm not making your job more difficult when it's pretty generous what you're doing for the world.
I appreciate that. But let me worry about my job.
Just worry about your side of the convo.
So what did you want to clarify? What I'm frustrated with is that it's more so a narrative that my father's telling me, not so much any proper definition of what love really is.
Because I think if things were more properly aligned with the truth, our house would not have fallen apart like this.
And I think that's where the frustration with the misuse of the word love is coming from.
More properly aligned with the truth?
Well, not lying.
I've kind of had to...
No, she's going counter to reality.
She's offended by reality, right?
Yes. She's upset and angered by...
That's not a slight failure to align with the truth.
Well, maybe that's just carryover of how I've had to learn how to talk growing up.
Yeah, I mean, you don't have to do that here, right?
I mean, like, if a doctor strangles a patient, we don't say that's a slight misalignment of the Hippocratic Oath, right?
Right, or like a maladjustment of the esophagus.
Yeah, yeah, not optimal treatment regimen, right?
Right. So tell me about your dad's threatening to disown you?
What the hell?
He got really worked up because essentially the first time I brought up this conversation was sometime after I discovered your manner of thinking and how simplistically brilliant it was that just like people were a continuation of I'm sorry, dude. That's not very close at all.
I'm so sorry about that.
Because no, we're not. The whole point of philosophy is we're not products of history.
Because what you said is deterministic.
You can figure out who people are based upon their histories, right?
You can figure out what makes them tick, who they are, what makes them work.
Influence at least. Well, yeah, sure, influence, but that's quite a bit different, right?
So I'm not a determinist, as you know, and that's why I said if your mother chooses to reject reality, that's her choice.
So she numbs herself with dissociation and denial, and then she wonders why she's got a kid, one kid who numbs herself with food and another kid who numbs himself with heroin, right?
I mean, this is straight off the mom's addictive behavior and denial of reality for the sake of immediate gratification, right?
Clarification. He did not use the heroin.
He was dealing it. How do you know he didn't use the heroin?
Well, he's told me that he's used things like Mali, LSD, and it's correct to assume that he may or may not have actually used heroin, but I've never, from what I've been told, he said he hasn't used heroin just because...
Wait, so the drug addict is now, what, unimpeachable?
Like he's a total source of truth?
You are entirely correct to be that suspicious, so I have no way of truly confirming if he has or hasn't.
We've just been that disconnected.
Well, that's a good thing. I mean, because he's going down legally, right?
And you don't want him to drag you down, right?
Right. I mean, if you have involvement with a guy who's dealing heroin...
Then, next thing you know, the cops are going to question you or he might blame you out of desperation.
You make one misstatement to the cops and you're charged with lying to the cops like you could get in some serious shit over this, right?
That's also looking only from the legal perspective.
It also can be wondered what other relationships are tied to the heroine and if there was some kind of mishandling that the people who gave him the heroine could come after us as a family.
Oh, yeah, like he might say, oh, I gave it to my brother to hold, whatever, right?
Just panicking. Well, it also helps that I'm in a completely different state, so that's...
But yeah, yeah, I see where you're coming from.
Well, no, but I mean, if you had regular contact with him, then that might be more plausible, right?
Yeah, very much so.
Okay, okay, okay, so...
Your parents deny, you characterize this to your mother, but it seems to be equally true of your father too, right?
Correct. Well, I guess he doesn't deny that there's a problem, he just says there's no way that the problem could ever be fixed.
Correct, and any attempt to talk about it, I usually get the story that he's telling in his head, which seems to be his answer to avoiding talking about what happened to us.
So, he says basically you can't change relationships, right?
You can't change people? Um...
Yeah.
I would argue yes.
I'm just kind of humming on.
No, like, so he says it doesn't do any good, you can't change people, people are who they are, blah blah blah, right?
Yes, and I think he's saying that remembering his failures in attempt to change who they were.
So... He's totally full of shit, by the way.
He's a complete liar in this area, and I know that for 100% fact, based on what you've told me.
I can believe it. Would you like to guess?
It's a little hard to see from the inside, but from the outside, it's flashbulb clear.
I came to this call to hear your wisdom, Mr.
Molyneux, so please enlighten me.
All right. So he says, well, there's nothing you can do to change people's perspective.
There's nothing you can do to change relationships.
People are who they are, right?
Right. And then he says, you bring this shit up again, I'm disowning you.
Hey, look, he suddenly thinks you can change your relationship, i.e.
your relationship with him by dropping the biggest nuclear bomb a parent can drop on a child, which is complete dissociation, right?
So suddenly, relationships are very flexible, and suddenly, people do respond to incentives, and suddenly, he has a lot of power to effect change in a relationship, right?
It's a miracle, right?
Yeah. Yeah, I see where you're coming from.
Tell me what you're feeling. I heard that.
I heard that. I was just remembering because I did actually risk bringing it up once more, but it was after quite different circumstances.
I risked bringing it up again after he owed me several thousands of dollars because that's the thing of still trying to hold on to a son that's involved with drugs is you end up supporting them because it's kind of hard, if not impossible, to get a regular job.
Doing this sort of thing. So yeah.
So you lending the guy who's supporting the drug addict slash drug dealer, you're lending him thousands of dollars?
Uh, yeah.
And I want you to come after this with full honesty because the answer I keep getting from him is he's my kid.
I can't walk away from my flesh and blood.
If you had kids, you would understand.
What do you mean he can't walk away?
He threatened you with disownment.
What do you mean he can't walk away?
Well, he just threatened you with walking away if you brought up a topic that was important to you and helpful to the family.
But then he says, well, I can't possibly walk away from my child.
What? He just...
I mean, help me. Am I going insane here?
No. Help me understand.
He just threatened to nuke your entire relationship.
And then he says, well, I can't possibly walk away from a child of mine.
It's like, what the...
The only plausible thing that I can think of is he's projecting a lot of his own past failures and nuisances with his own family onto my brother, but I can't actually dig into that part of his life.
No, no, no. I don't know about the armchair psychologizing.
I'm just looking at the logical consistency.
No, logical inconsistency.
He says to you, you bring this up again, I will have no relationship with you ever again.
And then he says, with regards to the drug dealer addict son, well, I can't possibly walk away from him.
It's like, why is he much more wedded to the bad son than the good son?
Well, of course, we know the answer to that.
But you understand, this is completely, like, from the outside, this is, like, brain-twistingly contradictory.
I know, and it's why I wanted to bring this phone call to light because, you know, I can't get any clear answer from actually trying to bring it up in the normal context is You know, family issues should either be discussed with a therapist, your family, or like close friends.
And my close friends, I don't think I've read the books to produce a useful answer for this situation.
Right, right. No, I understand.
Okay, let me ask you this.
Are you married?
No. Are you dating?
I saw someone about a year ago.
It lasted three months, and that's about it.
Right. Do you know why I'm asking you that now?
Possibly because this type of environment may or may not have adversely affected some part of my psyche that I'm not aware of.
Well, yes, but that's not specific to dating.
Oh. What's your favorite female name?
Uh, female name.
I would think it's mostly arbitrary as long as it's written in a language I can pronounce.
Okay. Let's go with Jennifer, all right?
Oh, oh, one of these.
Now, Jennifer, Jennifer, let me tell you about Jennifer, man.
She's great.
She's smart.
She's confident.
She speaks her mind. She is willing to gently confront people if she thinks that they're not telling the truth.
But she's very persistent about this kind of stuff.
And she's got a great sense of humor.
But she's also...
She's very deep and she's very thoughtful.
And... It takes a while for her to warm up to people, but when she does warm up to them, then she's loyal for life.
You really have to work hard to mess up that loyalty.
She's pretty.
She's athletic. She stays in shape.
She reads voraciously.
She's just a real joy.
She's just a real joy to be around.
She's actually looking for a guy, and I'm just wondering if you'd like to take her out on Saturday.
Sure, a woman that great sounds like there should be an opening bid.
But yeah. Okay, great.
So then you go out with Jennifer, right?
And Jennifer says to you, so you seem great, smart guy.
I love the fact that you listen to Freedom Aid.
That's worth an extra three and a half inches on the old meat stick.
Now tell me a little bit about...
I told you I was funny. Tell me a little bit about your family.
Oh boy. I appreciate the sacrifice that my father did for me, but it did not end well and I have since mostly removed myself from it.
From it being what, your father?
The family in its entirety.
I'm actually kind of worried that what I said about the five years thing is going to be true because my dad's 74 and I don't see those type of decisions producing long lives at this rate.
I'm sorry, how old are you?
I am 29.
Wow. Kind of a late dad going on there.
Yeah, yeah.
He really went for the gold and no one said anything.
And yeah, I think she was like 18 when he met her.
So he knew about youth and fertility, red pill, long before everyone else.
Okay, so help me understand your relationship with your family, says lovely Jennifer.
Like your current relationship with your family, because I'm not sure if you're in or you're out or what's going on.
I speak to my dad on a regular basis.
It's not deep and contemplative conversations that I would like.
My mother, it's explicitly only niceties and, you know, like the frivolous things that people talk about at like the political family parties.
I speak little to not at all with my brother.
And I also have just about nothing to do with my sister.
You know, if anything, it's a once a year Christmas phone call, and the once a year birthday phone call, even though I wish people would just kind of not remember my birthday, because I don't like getting older.
And what's the story with your brother?
A short story, drugs, long story, failure to communicate drugs and bad toxic relationships and a lot of other things that I probably will never be able to know.
And what's he doing now?
Uh, he's awaiting judgment for a only charge with heroin.
And, uh, I would like to remind at this point, Jennifer, that I've had nothing to do with him for like, wait, how many years has it been?
Like 11 years, I think.
Well, but your mother and your father did raise a criminal, right?
And somebody who supplied drugs perhaps to people underage who, you know, contributed to addiction and possibly death in the world?
No, death actually did happen.
This is actually stemming outside of my nuclear family.
But he introduced my cousin's brother to an equally toxic woman, and my cousin's brother actually did die from, surprise, a heroin overdose.
And I'm sorry to hear that, but if your brother was a drug dealer, then he's putting this particular poison out into the world, right?
Yes, yes. And people might have OD'd, they might have gone into a coma, they might have had brain damage, they could have had massive health issues.
I mean, who knows, right? Yeah, that's the philosophy thing of, like, honoring the awareness of what you're doing to your community at large, and you're entirely right.
And your sister? Uh, blissfully unaware, eating whatever she wants.
Wait, blissfully unaware of what?
Everything. Well, she knows that your brother is in trouble with the law, right?
Yeah, she knows about that.
And, you know, if you bring it up, she'll say it's all, you know, unfortunate and I don't know what to do and things like that.
But just going off of what she does on a day-to-day basis, I think it's mainly just alternating between eating and watching TV. But what does she live on?
Social Security, because she's blind and has gotten that for her whole life.
Well, not everyone who's blind takes this money, right?
Not everyone, but of the blind people that I've met, which it's not that many, she does.
And I think that's one of the things that invited a lot of toxic people into her life because you hang out with people whose primary source of income is government subsidy.
There's not a lot of stress in their life to produce any boundaries that shapes your character.
You just kind of turn into a blob that gets paid no matter what.
And you said you don't think she's going to live much longer?
Probably not. No.
And what are your parents doing about all of this?
My mother is still enabling her.
My sister actually has a boyfriend now who is also blind.
So I know...
Very little about that, but I think that it's one of those things where if his life isn't that different than what hers was, she's not going to have any imperative to change.
Yeah, no, I get that.
So what are your parents doing about this?
My dad's just kind of resigned and just trying not to kill himself at this point.
Your dad is suicidal?
I don't know if he's suicidal, but when someone tells you a lot that I sure wish one day that I'd wake up and not have to wake up, or I wish I wasn't me, or if it wasn't for your mother, I would have blown my brains out.
And yeah, that's kind of a stressful thing to say to your kid who's trying his damnedest to offset the shame that everyone else has brought into his life.
Wait, how...
I'm sorry.
How old were you when your father would talk about this fixation on dying or killing himself?
Well, I actually remember a lot that he would come in and vent to me when I was 15 or 16, I think, because he kept saying that I was the only sane individual in the house.
But the stress of dealing with my siblings has been an ongoing thing.
The explicit vocabulary of wishing he wasn't him, quote-unquote...
That happened when I was like 28, so that's relatively recent talk.
And with how things are going politically and economically, it's not looking...
He's carrying a lot of weight on his shoulders.
But he's the parents.
He's not a victim here, right?
Yeah, he's the parent, but because of what you pointed out correctly earlier about how he has this, like, oh, I can't change people, but I'll, you know, threaten to...
Wait, no, no. Stay with the Jennifer thing.
Stay with the Jennifer thing. Sorry, Jennifer.
Don't leave. But, yeah, he's...
He kind of turned to me, even though it's not really supposed to be the conversations you have with, like...
Like a teenage boy or your youngest son.
You know, it's supposed to be the parent has a better grasp on reality and how to deal with things and should be advising his children, not the other way around.
Right. Okay.
And what did your brother live on?
I would presume drug money.
And he's also had on and off jobs of labor.
from craigslist but previously he was a like his life his last like actual job was working at the board of trade and that's where presumably he met a lot of the hands and influences that got him deeper into the drug world right I'm almost afraid to ask about your mom but what's her story I only know very little about it,
but that kind of implies through negative space.
I don't mean her backstory. I mean sort of what's going on with her life that you know.
Oh, waitress jobs, desk clerks.
She worked at retirement homes, taking care of the elderly for the longest time, but she...
Really doesn't enjoy doing that after so many years.
And that's traditionally been how she brought in her supplemental income to help the family out.
Yeah, I didn't necessarily mean her resume.
I just mean what's she like.
Oh, apologies. She's very kind.
She makes, like, a lot of food all the time.
And she's, like, the stereotype of, like, freaking out about, like, what everyone thinks about her.
And, um...
You know, like, I'm actually leery to say kind because I have a feeling you're gonna ask a question later and, like, disprove any notion of kindness with what you're digging up.
But, um... If I picture what she would say about her...
Actually, no, that's not useful information.
What I say about her, she's kind of like that woman you see at the family parties where you don't know anything beyond the niceties of what's going on.
Yeah, like a step-of-wife kind of thing, right?
Yeah, like the pearl-clutching tactics and things like that.
So, when you talk about your family, you seem quite tense or stressed or wound up.
What's going on with you for that?
It's not a criticism. I'm just curious.
Right. It's mostly a mix of just awareness that I'm actually speaking to the guy who kind of taught me the operating system.
No, no, no. We're staying on Jennifer.
Sorry, Jennifer. Sorry, Jennifer.
It's just because I'm leery of how this is presented and how it's going to make me look because it's going to weigh a lot on how I reacted to it.
And also I'm kind of like leery of what oncoming questions are going to be begotten when I say what I say because I'm also aware that this is something I didn't really speak a lot about throughout my life because it was kind of a hushed topic.
Right. Yeah, listen.
So, I mean, as Jennifer, I'm, you know, you're a smart guy, you're a sensitive guy, you're a thoughtful guy.
Obviously, you care. But, I mean, I'll be perfectly frank with my decision-making process here, right?
Which is, you know, a girl's got to look out for her future, right?
So, you're still in this family.
You know, I'm Whether that's good or bad, I don't know.
I'm just sort of telling you from the outside.
I come in and I say, okay, so if you and I get involved, we get married, we have kids, this is my life.
Managing the obese, half-diabetic, half-dying sister.
Hang on, let me finish.
You've got your brother in and out of the law.
You've got a father who wants to throw himself off a bridge.
You've got this vacuous...
And that's, like, those people, like, you come with, you're a package deal, right?
Like, nobody's an individual, right?
We're all a package deal to one degree or another, right?
And, like, however great you may or may not be, and I sense that there's a lot of great stuff there for sure, but, I mean, I can't even tell you how much great stuff they'd have to be To bring these people into my life, into my future children's lives, this kind of chaos, this criminality, this suicidality, this emptiness, these problems, these massive problems.
And you probably were told by Steph that I'm perceptive and direct and so on.
And I'm not making this so you can sort of fix it or anything.
I just want to be honest about What I'm thinking and, you know, if, as it kind of looks this way, I'm not going to go on a date with you or another date with you.
I don't want you to feel like it's some weird abstract thing or you had a pimple or your teeth are crooked or whatever it is, right?
Yeah. But when I look at you, I see this family portrait, right?
Like, you're looking at me and you see me, right?
I'm looking at you, I'm seeing this family portrait, right?
We've got the, you know, obese, dying sister.
We've got the drug-dealing, drug-addict, criminal brother.
We've got the suicidal ideation dad.
Like, this is a... And that's your choice,
right? Yeah, I was, after my dad died, I was thinking of just, like, quietly cutting all ties, because I can't really think of anything that I can hope to do.
Because if I think about my mother...
But after your dad dies, won't your mom latch on to you even more?
I mean, aren't you the only functional one?
I am the only functional one.
And my mom, even though she wants to pretend that everything's fine, is aware that there is a lot of anger that I have towards her.
And I think also that I intimidate them slightly just because of how much I... Contrast what's going on in their lives when I step in to visit for Christmas or whatever.
Like, I've been told actually once...
No, but your mom, I mean, the way that I view relationships is very much in the here and now.
And I do this with my family.
I do this with friendships.
And what I do is I say to myself this.
I say, okay, if I was at a dinner party or I was at some social gathering and I met these people, would they be in my life?
If I met my mother, if I met my father, my brother, my sister, if I met these people at a social gathering and no history with them, if I met these people at a social gathering, would they remain in my life?
Now, if I sit down and think, okay, I meet some guy and he tells me, oh, yeah, I'm awaiting judgment for dealing heroin, I'd be like, is that someone I'm going to have in my life?
The answer, of course, is no.
If there's a woman who's stuffing her face and is clearly unhealthy and doesn't do anything with her life, would I sit there and say, let's do brunch?
Of course not, right? If there was a guy who was complaining about this dad, this elderly dad guy sitting across the table from me who was saying, oh, I can't stand my life.
I hope I wake up dead tomorrow, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Would I be like... Yeah, let's go go-karting together.
I'd be like, well, like, you know, sympathies.
Some of the human beings, they're suffering and, you know, I'm not heartless or anything like that, but this wouldn't be...
Or, you know, with your mom, if we just had some plastic conversation about nothing and I couldn't get anything...
Real out of her. But I sit there and say, I'm going to keep working at this.
I'm going to pour years and years into trying to crack through this facade and get to the real person.
I'd be like, no, I have friends.
We can have real conversations. I don't need to try picking the lock of this Barbie doll for the rest of my life, right?
Right. And so that's the way I look at relationships.
It's the way I deal with things with my family.
It's all got to be earned in the present, right?
I don't allow the past to subsidize the present.
Because that's an insult to the present, right?
So you say, well, I'm grateful for the sacrifices and blood.
It's like, okay, well, that's...
I mean, but if you met these people...
This is my question to you. If you met these people at a social gathering and you heard their stories, would they be in your life?
Absolutely not. If it wasn't for blood, I would have nothing to do with them.
Okay. So then you're subsidizing the present with the past, right?
Yes. Although, he is at least paying me back, though.
What do you mean? If subsidy was alluding to the thousands that I've lent him.
No, no, no, no. I'm not talking about that.
I'm talking about because there was involuntary involvement in the past.
Because you were born into this family.
You didn't choose it, right? So because there was involuntary involvement in the past, that means that somehow the present becomes more valuable.
Right. And that means that dysfunctional people have power over you.
And if I get involved with you, who else are they going to have power over?
Right. Then it's my fault.
I don't know. I didn't say the word fault, but these are the consequences, right?
Or, I mean, like, I would be the pathway if they wanted to extend that kind of power.
Oh, no, they will. Yeah, absolutely.
Of course they will. I mean, they extend it on you on Earth, but they extend it on me.
Right. Well, I kind of wish that I could, like, alleviate my dad's suffering by telling him to...
Disavow what they've become.
I'm sorry, I don't know what that means?
Disavow what they've become? I'm not sure what that means.
Sorry, abstraction. But I basically kind of wish that he would just cut ties with his own kids.
And I don't know if I'd be able to convince him to leave his wife.
But, you know, it's just kind of painful because I see where him wanting to kill himself comes from.
And he put himself there.
And I think his unwillingness to talk about these things...
Well, no, he's traumatizing everyone around him by talking about death, right?
Yeah, it's kind of rough having to hear that.
It's horrible. It's horrible, right?
So, I mean, he's not going to solve the problem because he's continuing to make it worse, right?
Yeah, he's a sinking ship.
All right. And I assume you've had some conversations around something important with your parents?
Father, yes.
Mother, no. Mother refuses to cooperate.
Right. So your mother refuses to cooperate, yet you continue cooperating.
I don't try with her.
No, you talk with her, right?
I've tried to, yes.
No, no. I'm sorry.
That was my fault completely.
I'm sorry. I wasn't clear. You said that you have these empty conversations with her, right?
Yeah. Any talk with her is entirely plastic.
Yeah, no, I get that. So she doesn't cooperate with you and your preferences, which is to have a real conversation, but you cooperate with her and her preferences, which is to have meaningless contact, right?
I can explain that because if I don't cooperate...
No, no, no, hang on. I just...
No, I'm not asking you to explain it.
I'm just... I'm asking is that...
Oh, yes, that is correct.
Is that the way it is? Yes.
So the fact that she doesn't cooperate with you doesn't mean that you don't have to cooperate with her.
100% correct. Okay.
And that's what I mean by it's asymmetrical, right?
Entirely. Okay.
And that's how they have power over you, right?
Yes, because my mother will hold my father emotionally hostage, where if her bubble gets popped that something's not fine, she'll freak out and make his life even worse, which is why I have to play along.
She's a bully, right? Yes, although calling her a bully would cause her to freak out, but yeah, she is kind of like that.
Well, of course it would cause her to freak out if she's a bully, right?
Yeah, because bully is not a nice word.
So your mother bullies, your father threatens death or dwells on death, right?
Yeah. And these are the people you want to bring into my life.
I I see where you're getting that Because for me Integrity is not easy Right Integrity is, okay, I have these standards and I expect people to meet them.
Do you think a murderer should go to jail?
Or be punished? Probably, yes.
If it is, like, actually murder, then yeah.
Yeah, like I'm talking an honest-to-goodness murderer, witnesses, no doubt, blah, blah, blah, video, whatever it is, right?
Do you think that a murderer should be punished?
Yes. Do you think that a murderer had a bad childhood?
Probably. Can you think of somebody who would be a murderer who had a wonderful childhood?
I'm not talking self-defense.
I'm not talking homicide. I'm talking murder.
If they had a good childhood and there's an actual accusation of murder, I would sooner think it's like those tactics that the mainstream media does, calling someone a murderer.
But no, I generally would not think no.
Right. So you don't believe that a person's past excuses bad behavior in the present.
Right. Correct.
You're supposed to own that.
Except you do with your parents, right?
Yes. So that's a contradiction, right?
It is a contradiction.
You are entirely correct.
So holding people responsible is a difficult thing to do, right?
It's painful because most people don't want to be held responsible, right?
Right. It's particularly painful for me because I feel like I really owe my father my life when he went against medical advice that the child should not be carried to term.
And if you guys have that kid, you belong in cages, so to say.
That's what the doctor said. Oh my god, you just gave me a bone chill.
Oh, date of mine.
Ooh, that's not good.
Sorry, that sounds very mysterious.
I was just sort of processing what I just heard.
Yeah, yeah. So you owe your father your life, your obedience, your allegiance forever because he said you should be carried to term, right?
I think I know where you're going with this, but yes.
Yeah, no, go ahead. I'm happy to hear what you think.
It is no man's place to claim that the child that they bring into the world owes any allegiance to their parents when the child itself does not choose who its parents are.
Well, that's pretty abstract.
What kind of concrete thing am I thinking about?
Basically, you're saying that I have this internalized that I, by my unusual genetic circumstance, owe allegiance to my dad because of what the doctors tried to get him to do.
Yeah. No.
That's all about the past.
What more concrete future thing am I thinking about if we get together?
How are you going to treat your son?
What expectations are you going to have for your son?
I would not have that kind of expectation.
And this is actually one of the things I would say.
Oh, come on! This is how you define your relationship with your father.
And you're trying to tell me, but don't worry, when I become a father, I'm going to be completely different, completely the reverse with no problem.
I see where you're getting at.
The only thing I could offer as rebuttal to that is just how I am now is the opposite of what they are.
And I can just claim that I would continue doing the opposite of what they were.
But I think you would say I'm talking about the past again.
Wait, you're the opposite of what they are?
Yeah. Wait, your mother bullies your father, right?
Yes. And he complies?
Yes. Your mother bullies you?
And you comply?
Because of my father, yes.
I don't care why.
Everybody's got a reason to comply with bullies.
So if you say you're the opposite of your father, let's say...
Who's bullied by your mother, and you are also bullied by your mother.
How is that the opposite?
This is where that tension that you pointed out earlier is starting to resonate, because I'm starting to feel really reluctant to say anything that's abstract whatsoever.
Good, good. Stop abstracting.
You think philosophy is about a book I wrote.
It's not. It's not.
Philosophy is about your heart, your balls, your spine, and your mind.
Mind last. Right?
So, how are you the opposite if your mother bullies you both and you both comply?
You're right. You're right.
I would not be correct in claiming myself the opposite.
I'm only the opposite because when I say that word, I think of my decisions in regards to health, financial, and self-management and everything that I've learned what not to be in my decisions.
Oh, the only reason I as Jennifer and sitting across the table from you is because you're not the same as them.
I get that. I get that for sure.
But thinking that you can be the opposite You know, psychologically speaking, opposites kind of wrap around the back, you know, like communism and fascism, they kind of wrap around the back.
And somebody who's, you know, their mother's really submissive, and then they become really aggressive, they just flip the script, right?
They didn't really grow.
Yeah. Hmm.
What happens with your parents when you strongly disagree with them about something important?
My dad throws up abstractions and tries to find ways to dismiss the conversation.
My mother would never be there beyond my disagreement because she would probably try to drop the conversation right there.
So yes, no communication would ensue.
So your dad just gets abstract?
He gets abstract. And your mom.
And mom denies and wants everything to be fine.
And anything else happen?
I get angry, but...
No, on their side. Oh, on their side, no.
You just lost the date, man.
Yeah, I know.
Do you know why? Because my association with what's sounding more and more like it's...
No, no, no.
No, because you lied.
All right, I'm actually legit spun around right now.
Could you please help me understand? And listen, I'm not complaining.
I'm not mad at you.
I'm not criticizing you.
I'm simply pointing out an obvious fact that you lied.
Right, and this is why I sought you out, because your perspective is not like anything I ever hoped to find.
Now, you lied to Jennifer.
You lied to Jennifer, and I only knew that because I was in the privileged position of having not been Jennifer in the prior part of the conversation.
So when I asked you what happened with your parents when you strongly disagreed about something important, and you said your father abstracts and your mother spaces out, retaliates, whatever, right?
Now, what did you not say that you told me earlier when you tried to bring things up with your dad?
He... Like, usually, like, meanders off into story?
No, no, a very specific thing.
It was the middle of the sandwich.
First time, he abstracted.
Third time, he said, no one can change, it's the way of the world, blah, blah, blah.
He would threaten to disown me.
Right. That's where you lost the date.
Now, there's a reason why, and I said, is there anything else they do?
Well, he wouldn't do that with my mother there.
That was brought up to me in private.
No, no, no. Okay, but maybe that's a bit cloudy, right?
But I didn't say that they had to be together.
And the most important thing that your father did was threaten to disown you, right?
Right. And you didn't reveal that to Jennifer.
Right. Now, that's a lie by omission, right?
Now, did it cross your mind to say it, or it didn't cross your mind at all?
Deception was not my intent, and it did not originally cross my mind.
I was thinking, like, what tactics do they use to get me to go quiet again?
Well, that was the most important tactic your father used, right?
It certainly is.
Yeah, yeah, you're right, you're right.
No, listen, that's a huge...
That's a defining moment in your relationship with your father.
It's the nuclear option.
It's like... It's like in a marriage, you say, do this or I'll divorce you.
You just killed the marriage.
The marriage is now dead.
Like, maybe you can negotiate something up, but the marriage as it stood is now dead.
Because if you say to someone...
Do what I demand or you're dead to me.
Yeah. I'm sorry?
Yeah, it's like an or else option.
You're bringing the force to the table.
If you say, do what I want or I'll divorce you, I'll take half your stuff and you'll never see the kids, then the marriage is dead because either the man is not going to comply, in which case the woman either divorces him or she doesn't.
Now, if she divorces him, the marriage is over.
If she doesn't divorce him, even though he doesn't comply, he knows that she's willing to make an empty threat of such magnitude just to get her way, and he loses all respect for her.
Right. Or, he does comply with her, in which case, she will now forever think that he only did it because he was afraid of divorce and not because he cared about her or understood what she wanted.
Right. Either way, like no matter which option happens, the marriage is dead.
The marriage, as it's still out, maybe you could negotiate something, but the marriage is dead.
Right? So when your father says, if you talk to me about something that's important to you that I don't like, then you can fuck right off and keep fucking right off forever and ever.
Amen. Right? That is the continuity of the logic, yes.
Then your relationship with your father as it stood is over.
Now, maybe you can negotiate something new or figure something out or whatever, right?
But that's dead. I'm telling you that right now.
It's dead. Because if you say, okay, so in order to be in the vicinity of this man, I have to not talk about things that are essential to me and important for the family, And if he is content to have you around,
knowing that he just threatened to terminate his relationship with you, father to son, if he doesn't sit there and say an hour later or a day later, oh my God, I threatened our entire bond, I'm so sorry.
What a terrible thing to do.
That is a horrible and abusive thing to do.
He did later apologize.
It was like some weeks after, but he did apologize.
So I want to throw that out there.
And that's great. Except, did he apologize and say, let's return to what you were talking about because it was wrong for me to threaten you with dissociation for that topic.
So let's return to it. No, you're correct.
He just tried to apologize for his lash out.
And given that, to this day, I still struggle to get any type of conversation of this depth out of him, it's correct to assume that this was not resolved after the apology.
So it's kind of an empty apology.
It's more manipulation, right?
Right. He was concerned that you might be brooding about it, so he'd apologize to give you the piece of duct tape to put over the oil warning light, right?
Yes. Right.
Yeah, the or we're done conversations, it is done.
The moment somebody utters that kind of ultimatum.
Now, it's, I mean, because, you know, the other analogy is, you know, if I don't get a raise, I'm going to quit, right?
Right. Yeah.
It's slightly different because it's not a monogamous relationship to be employed by someone and it's not an intimate pair bonding relationship.
And that may be a valid negotiating tactic.
However, your relationship is probably not going to work out with the guy because he will give you more money, but only because you threaten to quit, which means he doesn't actually value you and it's going to not work out in the long run anyway.
And if you have to threaten people to get what you want, the relationship doesn't last, usually.
I mean, you might get some conformity in the moment, but the threat undermines, right?
And how long ago did your father threaten to end the relationship if you kept asking important questions?
Let me think back.
That was, I want to say, four years ago.
Right. And the fact that you remember it is very important, right?
Right. Now, do you know why he threatened you and not your brother?
I am actually baffled in how you're bringing this up, not because of the question, but of the seeming double standard, because yes, I see what you're pointing at.
No, we talked about the double standard earlier, and I stand by that, but do you know why he threatened to cut off relations with you if you didn't stop asking uncomfortable questions, but he did not threaten to cut off relations with your brother if he kept dealing drugs and being an addict?
My hypothesis is that I was still in his life.
My brother was dealt with only over the phone and was in our former state.
But didn't he give your brother money?
Yeah, he sends him money.
We live in... No, no, don't give me geography, man.
Come on, come on. Don't give me geography because it's too much editing afterwards, okay?
Oh, sorry. So the point is that he sends your brother money and talks to him regularly, right?
Yes, yes. Okay.
So, why did he threaten you?
Why did he threaten to cut you off for good behavior, but not to cut off your brother for bad behavior?
Because I was going to expose everything that's toxic about our household?
Because you have a conscience.
And therefore, can be controlled.
Because you feel bad about things and that gives people leverage over you.
Your brother, I dare say, doesn't have an excess of conscience.
Because otherwise he'd sit there.
Sorry? Shame has been a reoccurring thing that he's mentioned when I've spoken to him on and off.
So he's not a cycle of that.
Shame is not the same as conscience.
Right. Shame is not the same as conscience.
Shame usually has to do with things have gone badly for me and people know about it.
Right. Shame is not the same as guilt, I should say.
Is that correct? Well, the relationship between shame, guilt, and conscience...
So guilt is what happens when you...
Often what happens when you are...
Afraid of somebody's bad opinion, and they push that button, then they can produce guilt in you.
Shame is when negative behavior gets out socially.
A conscience is, and those are both bad cures for bad behavior, but a conscience is something that prevents you from doing that bad behavior in the first place.
So you may feel guilt for maybe having harmed people by selling heroin.
You may feel shame about being exposed as a potential criminal.
But empathy or a conscience would say, if somebody says, hey, why don't you be a drug dealer?
It'd be like, well, no, that's a terrible thing to do.
It harms other people. It harms me.
It harms my future prospects.
It's just wrong.
It's damaging. Right.
They wouldn't touch it in the first place.
Right. Right.
Because, you know, philosophy is all about prevention, not cure.
Now, your sister, of course, people on welfare have a very tough time with the conscience, right?
Because... And empathy because they'd sit there and say, well, why am I consuming the products of other people?
It's not their fault that I'm blind.
It's not their fault that I don't have a job.
I could conceivably get a job.
So this check that I'm getting comes from other hardworking people or it comes from children as yet unborn who are being sold off to feed my addiction to sugar or whatever, right?
So people, like, it's really tough to have a lot of empathy if you have a conscience because, sorry, it's really tough to have empathy if you're taking welfare.
Because empathy would interfere with your sense of entitlement about getting the money, right?
Yes. I'm owed this money.
I have a disability. I'm blind.
People are always like, no, they don't.
And you're using the government force to get money from people.
It's kind of blood money and it's wrong.
Other people have to have a job so that you don't have to get off your ass.
That's exploitive, right?
It's parasitical. Right.
The only thing that comes to mind when you clear that out is...
I want to actually explain how they're reluctant to try and put an answer forward to them.
My reluctance came from how getting a job these days is difficult if you can't look at a computer screen or what type of social input you're missing out on without the actual visual sense.
That's just where my reluctance is always...
Oh, listen, I get it's tough.
I absolutely get it's tough, for sure.
And it's a lot easier to take government money than it is to get off your ass.
Right. Now, if there was no government money, she would change her behavior, right?
Right. There are computers for the blind.
There are lots of text-to-speech, lots of input, lots of options, lots of ways of working for people who are blind.
Yes, I'm familiar with it.
If Stevie Wonder can headline, your sister can get a job.
Right? Right.
Right. If Jeff Healy can learn how to play slide guitar in a terrible movie like Roadhouse, your sister can get a job.
Right. I'll agree with you, but I've never seen the movie, so I don't know.
You haven't missed much.
You haven't missed much. So, not wanting to take money from other people against their will through force.
I mean, it's kind of an empathy thing, right?
Yes. And of course, your sister is not having empathy for herself or her future self.
Neither is your brother, right?
That's the problem with addiction, right?
Having empathy for your future self.
100% correct. If you have the kind of conscience and empathy that has you call into this kind of show and wrestle with these issues, and that's great, right?
So you have a big giant control button on your forehead called conscience, which it seems to me is either small Or missing in your siblings.
And it's missing in your mother.
Right. And it's probably missing in your father or smaller, right?
So because you have this big giant control mechanism called the conscience button, you are roaming around people who feel powerless, giving them the one option they have to feel power in this life, which is to thump the shit out of your conscience button.
Yes. Look, I can have an effect.
I can control someone.
I have some power. I get some serotonin, lobster style, right?
Right. So, what should be serving you, having a conscience, having empathy, caring for people, what should be serving you in building the foundations of a future family...
It's being used to drag you down, to keep you down, to keep you controlled, to keep you subservient, and to keep you single and childless.
Your virtue is being used to control you.
You have me sincerely baffled with how Single and Childless came into the conversation.
Can you please elaborate? Do your parents and your siblings care that it's totally fucking up your dating chances that they're so screwed up?
They're not even aware of that depth to where they can bring it up in a conversation.
These conversations don't happen at all.
Look, everyone knows everything. Listen, man.
Everyone knows everything.
Right? Do they care?
Has the family sat down and said, you know, you're pushing 30, son.
What's going on with your dating life?
How can we help? What can we do?
No. Do they care that you're single?
If they do, they have not expressed it.
Okay, then they don't. Because we're empiricists here, right?
There's no magic thoughts behind the actions.
Right. Right?
We can't define people's inner states.
All we can do is judge them by their actions, right?
Correct. I mean, if your father had never said...
Do what I say or I'm totally done with you.
I never would have said, I bet you he thought in one of those conversations, do what I say or I'm totally...
I couldn't imagine the kind of...
I can only go with what people say and do, right?
Evidence. I'm an empiricist, right?
Right. So if they've never said, hmm, I don't know, something's not right here.
We've got three kids who don't have kids, right?
But we have one kid at least who's functional.
And we got to sit down and figure out how can we help you?
Or is something interfering, right?
How would the date with Jennifer go based upon what you told her?
South, pretty quick.
Because she would say your family are the kind of people who hammer at the conscience button to control good people.
Correct. They'll hammer at yours and they'll hammer at mine.
And I don't like, Jennifer would say, I really don't like my virtues being used to control me and giving dysfunctional and bad people power over me.
Virtue should be something that serves me and helps me and empowers me and strengthens me and gives me courage, not something that dysfunctional people can sniff out and hammer to control me and subjugate me.
My strength should not be used to enslave me, and I won't let it happen.
I suggest you don't let it happen, but I can't control you.
Your empathy should not be a remote control mechanism so that you can self-destruct to the satisfaction of broken people.
They know that you care.
They know that you care.
And therefore, they can control you.
Now, they don't say, well, he cares, we care, we value caring, let's care together.
He doesn't threaten, your dad doesn't threaten your siblings because it wouldn't fundamentally bother them.
Thank you.
He threatens you because it bothers the shit out of you.
Yes, that's very astute.
Wow.
So that's why I say single and childless.
Because this orbit of broken people who are taking you apart bit by bit, limb by limb, who are hammering your conscious button in order to control you, that is keeping good women away from you.
They don't want to step into that swamp.
They don't want to join that puppet show.
And they know deep down that if you don't confront this in yourself, not in your parents, in yourself, if you don't confront this in yourself, and they raise children if you don't confront this in yourself, and they raise children with a
which they will, What are you going to have a strong tendency to do when you don't get your way?
I'm going to remember the example my father taught me, which is that people with a conscious can be controlled if my desire to get my way is strong enough.
Yep. You threaten disapproval, you threaten withdrawal, you threaten negative stimuli, and you will try to control them.
Now, You have enough of a conscience that you'll kind of hate that tendency within yourself, right?
Right. And you'll feel bad about it.
And you'll apologize. Oh, then you'll do it again, but you'll feel bad about it.
Oh, my God. And then Jennifer looks at her kids, looking at her, saying, who the hell did you marry?
Are these your values?
Do you condone this?
Is this... Are you okay with this?
What's going on? It's not how you behave, Mom.
Why does daddy keep doing this?
Oh, well, you know, but he had, it was difficult for him as a kid and his dad did this and blah, blah, blah.
Right.
And then they'll turn to her and say, oh, so what excuses do we get because dad does this to us?
What if we go and start teasing and bullying other kids and making them feel bad if they don't give us what we want?
Like, what if we do that in the playground?
What if we do that with each other, mom?
Is that okay? Is it okay if we bully each other by pushing the conscience button until people obey us?
Applying negative stimuli until we get what we want?
Is that okay for us to do with each other?
What about with the dog, with the cat?
Is that okay? Can we threaten them too?
What about other kids? Is that okay?
No! Well, wait.
Why does dad get an excuse because it was done to him but we don't get an excuse when we're kids because it was done to us?
Dad's 50 years old or 40 years old.
Why does he get an excuse that we don't?
Is he weaker than us?
Is he less mature than us?
Is he...
What the hell is going on?
Does she want those conversations, really?
Jennifer, you're talking about?
Yeah. Yeah.
The answer to all of those is do not get yourself in that situation in the first place.
So... So, when you expose your conscience button to predatory people, you lose.
And they don't care that you lose, because all they want to do is win, right?
Right. In fact, they kind of want you to lose, because if it's the only way they can win, right?
Yes. Conscience.
Conscience is like your ass. What?
Conscience is like your ass.
You don't fucking show it in public.
Are you crazy? Oh.
Are you going to go flash your family dinner?
I don't think so. Right, right.
Your conscience is for the people in your life who have a conscience.
Your conscience is not to be put on display as a hammer button for broken people to smash you up with.
It is your secret, private, powerful self.
It is a great honor to give people access to your conscience.
It is a great vulnerability to give people access to your conscience.
It is a great power to give people access to your conscience.
And I will tell you this, in my life, people only get one chance to screw up with my conscience.
It can happen. We all make mistakes.
One chance. They get one...
It's not a freebie, because we'll have talks about it, but they have one...
Oops, right? Right.
You have people surrounding you.
They're ringing around you, like circling the wagons, right?
They're ringing around you, and they're hammering your conscience...
With what I can see is no discernible conscience of their own.
And that keeps everyone with a conscience away from you because it's too fucking dangerous.
Because if they join you inside that circle where people control other people through their conscience, they will end up being broken and controlled and they cannot risk it.
Because you're getting hammered.
And they can't come and rescue from that because they'll get hammered too.
It makes perfect sense.
And that's the inoculation that your family doesn't care about.
Do you think that I would want to come over for Sunday dinner with your family?
No, I don't think anyone would.
Because if I care about your family, the first thing they will do is what?
If you care, you will expose your conscious and that will be used to suppress and control you.
Right, right.
Am I happy that you're there?
I am not. Right.
Can I pull you out?
I cannot. Because you're still Stockholm syndromed with this.
You're still bonded with the abusers.
And I sympathize with that more than I can express.
And I admire you for that, for retaining the capacity to still have a bond despite how you were raised.
You did a great job.
And you have a choice.
This is your big fork in the road moment, right?
This is what people call in for.
It's the fork in the road moment. And the fork in the road is you can continue being the slave of broken people or you can be your own man and have a future.
Right. It's just a bit cumbersome to contemplate that because the values that I've subscribed to over the years and all this talk of how virtuous the idea of family is and the idea that I've held on to something that wasn't truly what I thought it was, it would create kind of a vacuum.
Oh no, it's hard.
It's hard to quit a drug.
Of course. But family does have great value, for sure.
Right, it's just admitting that...
But only for those who value family.
Like, gold has great value only to those who value gold.
Like, when the explorers first came to Alaska, right?
They were looking for gold. These two guys went up to look for gold in Alaska.
And they ended up out with the natives, right?
The indigenous population of Alaska, right?
Yeah. And they said, we're looking for this.
They had a little sample of gold, right?
And the indigenous was like, oh, man, that's all over the place up here.
It's like clogging up the rivers.
It's like, yeah, it's everywhere, right?
And they're like, can we take it?
And they're like, yeah, well, sure.
Because they had no idea what it was.
Well, they knew what it was.
They just didn't value it. Yeah, excuse me.
Because they had a barter or self-sufficient economy.
They didn't have anything to buy.
They didn't have a trading mechanism.
You couldn't exchange it for stocks or shares or railway tickets or anything like that, right?
Right. So you say, but gold has value.
It's like, yes, it does, but only to those to whom gold actually has value.
Right? Right. And in Alaska, you can still make 40 bucks a day panning for gold in a stream if you want, right?
Still gold up there.
So, yeah, family has value, but only for people to whom family has value.
Now, what you did was you came to your family and you said, does family have value?
Here's what I think. Here's what I feel.
Here's what I want. Here's my truth.
Here's the truth, I think, right?
Here I am Acting as if family has value.
And what did they do?
They shut me down. Yeah.
So what you came, you came, you spent a month digging up gold.
You came and you said to someone, here's my gold.
And they took it and they threw it into the ocean.
Because they don't value gold.
They don't care. You say, but my whole life I thought the gold has value.
It's like, well, yes, but only to those to whom gold has value.
Right. So family has value, sure.
In my family, we love, honor, treasure, respect, worship, whatever, right?
What you do for family, family first, absolutely.
There's almost nothing I wouldn't do for my family.
Now, my family of origin, that's a whole different story, right?
Right. Yes, yes.
And I appreciate all the adversity that you suffered through to build the character that you are today that delivers the value that you do.
So, thank you.
Thank you. Values that aren't reciprocated are exploitation.
Values that aren't reciprocated are exploitation.
You do for family.
You lend them money, you care, you talk, you converse, you give advice, you lose sleepless nights, so you have sleepless nights over your family, right?
Is it reciprocated?
They are not in a position of power to be able to really reciprocate.
No, no, no. They could reciprocate just through verbally validating the issues that I want to talk about, but they choose not to.
No, that's so far from the truth, man.
Oh, my God. I'm so sorry.
I don't mean to be annoying, but I'm sure I am.
No, I appreciate the patience.
You came to your father honestly with an issue, and he threatened to cut you off.
Yes. Okay?
That's not failing to respond.
Oh, he responded. That's not failing to respond.
That's like, well, they don't have the power to reciprocate.
He threatened you directly.
If you're here with your interests in this relationship with me, there will be no relationship.
If you show up, I leave.
If you're here, I'm gone.
If you're honest, I'm out of here and never coming back.
He was very direct and very honest and very clear and very brutal and very powerful, right?
Yes. Are your values reciprocated?
They are not, and I would also extend that my values are not even well known to them.
They have never expressed any curiosity to dig up that type of question.
Your values are very well known because they know exactly how to fight against them.
If you start bringing up something honest with your mother, she would figure it out in about one-tenth of a nanosecond and would fight back with everything she's got.
They know exactly what your values are.
Okay, yeah. I can't say I don't know how to fight with a sword and then some expert swordsman comes up and I block every fucking move.
Guess what? I know what I'm doing.
If I can counter every move, I know the other person's sword play, right?
Correct. I mean, if you start speaking to your family in Japanese, okay, they don't know what the hell you're talking about.
They're confused, right? But your family, they block everything you do the moment you start to do it, right?
Correct. They know your values better than you know your values.
Because they know your values enough to oppose them.
them, you don't know them enough to live them.
And my answer in my life to the people who oppose my values is two simple words.
Well, I guess this explains why the dissolvement is happening.
Good luck. Good luck.
I told libertarians 12 years ago how to win.
And they wouldn't listen.
Rolled their eyes, mocked, scorned.
Good luck. Good luck!
Good luck under Biden. Good luck.
We could have won. I told the world how you could have morality without God or government.
Couple of trashy, low-rent articles, and people are like, oof, we don't have to deal with that.
Off we go. Well, good luck.
Your sister won't stop chugging the bubble-ass poison known as soda.
Good luck. Your father...
Punishes you in the most brutal and foundational manner for being honestly curious with him.
Good luck. Good luck with all that.
Your brother poisons half the community because he's too lazy to get a real job and wants free drugs.
Good luck with that. Your mother is relentlessly shallow and viciously opposes any kind of depth.
Good luck. Good luck.
And this sounds kind of snarky.
like no good luck I genuinely wish the libertarians good luck under Biden I genuinely wish your sister good luck with her health Because she's going to need it.
Because it's nothing but luck from here on in, right?
Maybe she won't get sick.
Well, she's bloody lucky, right?
If somebody wants to keep smoking, I say, hey, you've got to stop smoking, man.
It's going to make you sick. No, I'm going to keep smoking.
And you're an asshole who just wants to deny me the pleasure of a harmless vice.
Okay, good luck. Good luck.
Good luck, man. I hope it doesn't make you sick.
But if it does, my conscience is clear.
You're three decades into this family.
Thirty years, man. People get out of jail, and less than that, for first-degree murder.
You're thirty years into this family.
And you probably spend a good 15 to 20 of those years trying to make it better.
Have they listened? No!
Have they opposed? Yes!
Have they threatened? Absolutely!
My phrase? Well, good luck, everyone.
but I've got to go live a life and Jennifer's got a rack to die for.
Hello, are you back? - Okay.
Yeah, sorry. I won't be able to reproduce that speech.
It was too good. So you'll have to wait until the end to hear it.
So I'll just close off from here, but I'll try and publish it tomorrow.
So, yeah, I do wish everyone out there, like, really try to live your values.
Do not let your precious soul and sovereignty of consciousness be controlled by Bad people hammering at your conscience button because they have no power over their own lives.
I really do appreciate the caller from tonight.
I really do appreciate you guys giving me, again, the honor and great respect of having these conversations with people.
I hope I do you proud every week.
Well, a couple of times every week.
And if you could help out the show, freedomain.com forward slash donate.
I would really, really appreciate that.
Don't forget to pick up your free audiobooks at...
FreeDomain.com forward slash almost and FDRURL.com forward slash TGOA. You can get them in any feed catcher.
Thanks, James, for organizing this.
Thanks to the listeners. Thanks to you all.
Thanks to the future who will still be listening to this in a thousand plus years.
I wish I could see what you could see, but hopefully we'll do our part in shaping how we get there.
Thanks, everyone. Lots of love.
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